November 18, 2025 • 34 mins
What if your kid isn’t “addicted” to their phone—what if their brain is just wired for fast dopamine now? Licensed therapist Kristina Fields, MS, LMFT, breaks down the science of attention, why phone-free school policies actually work, and how small, consistent changes at home can rewire focus without declaring war on technology. She also gets real about using her own clinical playbook at home with her 3- and 5-year-old children.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to the Next Talk Podcast.
We are a nonprofit passionateabout keeping kids safe online.
We're learning together how tonavigate tech, culture, and
faith with our kids.
We are joined today withChristina Fields.
I recently met her and I'vegotten to know her.
(00:21):
Our team has, and she is just awealth of information.
Christina, will you introduceyourself to the Next Talk
listeners and tell us a littlebit about yourself
professionally and personally?
SPEAKER_03 (00:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let me start first, though,Mandy, by saying thank you for
having me here.
I'm just so excited about thework that Next Talk is doing,
that you're doing, and theeducation that you are giving to
our community that is so needed.
And so I'm excited to be hereand partner with you and just
support all of the amazingthings that you're putting out
there.
My name is Christina Fields.
(00:51):
I am a licensed marriage andfamily therapist.
I'm also serving as a facultyspecialist in the Department of
Psychiatry and Behavioral Healthat UT Health San Antonio.
I work in child psychiatry andI've been there about 12 years
or so.
And so along my career path,I've just been able to be
surrounded by some of theexperts in this field.
(01:13):
And I'm just so privileged to beable to share a little piece of
that with y'all today.
So personally, I have a I'm awife and a mother to a three and
a five-year-old, which has justbeen a fun ride.
The hardest thing and the bestthing at the same time is what I
(01:34):
tell everybody.
And so we are starting to kindof navigate the technology, you
know, and introducing what thatmight look like for them, um,
even at their young ages.
And so something I'm verycognizant about and constantly
paying attention to in my ownhome.
SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
Thank you so much.
I love having you here.
We we met, um, I was presentingto the Department of Psychiatry,
the where you where you work.
And it was such an honor to beable to meet all these mental
health providers that were doingamazing work and wanting to
learn more about online dangersand the work of Next Talk.
And so we just connected and itimmediately right away knew that
(02:14):
we had the same passion for kidsand families.
You know, Christina, we weretalking recently about
phone-free schools in Texas andwhat we were seeing with that.
And you had observed some thingsas a counselor.
I wanted you to share that firstof all as we as we kick off this
show.
SPEAKER_03 (02:32):
Yeah, so I have the opportunity um to see uh young
people, teenagers that are inour schools.
And when this, you know, we weregoing back into the new school
year, it was something I waschecking in on and seeing how
everybody was feeling.
And I'll never forget um one ofthem had told me, you know, oh
(02:54):
my gosh, we're going back to the90s.
And I tried really hard not totake offense to that.
But um, you know, it was it wasreally stressful, and it was
really um, you know, what am Igonna do?
People, you know, um needed themusic, right?
I need my headphones, I need tobe able to listen to something.
(03:14):
And so I would, you know, wasconstantly hearing just a lot of
the anxiety, and actually notjust at the level of the the
kids themselves, but there was alot of parent anxiety too of how
am I gonna reach my kid?
How um what if somethinghappens?
And so um, you know, I kind ofspent some of that time in the
beginning just trying to givethem a lot of education and how
this can be helpful andequipping them with like, well,
(03:36):
you know, what does researchtell us about you know having
your phone in the school and howit does distract you and steal
your attention, it makes youperform uh lower end tests,
things like that.
And so some of them were verysurprised by these things.
Um, but yeah, I think there wasa little a little panic in in
some of the kids, and some evensaid they were gonna go get old
school um the music devices justso that they could have that
(03:59):
that music, yeah, the iPod.
Um, so that they could just havethat music and you know, again,
stimulation because they're notused to having nothing.
So yeah, I saw I saw a bit ofthat in the beginning.
SPEAKER_02 (04:12):
And then we're we're several months in now.
What are you seeing now?
Has there been any shifts or anynew information that you're
gathering as you've kind ofmonitored this situation?
SPEAKER_03 (04:22):
Our kids are so resilient, and I think we don't
give young people enough creditfor that.
And I think when you do umintroduce, you know, new rules
or things like that, as long asyou know we we we stick to it
and enforce it, I do think thatthere is a level of you know
adjustment.
And again, it it takes a coupleof weeks, maybe a month.
(04:42):
Um, but I did see that in a lotof the my patients that I did
see that they started to getused to it.
Um, some have mentioned, youknow, they had teachers that
enforced a pretty hard policybefore this.
So it was some of them it was alittle bit familiar.
Um, and then I'll say there wasalso kind of the other half
where I noticed they wereactually being able to use their
(05:06):
phones in the school as well, orsome of the policies were not
being as enforced as strongly inthe beginning or during lunch or
during free periods and thingslike that.
So I think that probably gavethem a sense of ease um around,
you know, the shift that washappening.
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
Well, and I I've seen that too.
Some of the school districts.
Um I am what I'm seeing from thenext talk perspective is the
same as what you are seeing as acounselor is um is the schools,
some of them have gotten laxedand they actually are using
their phones more than theyshould be.
And the other part is if it isstill being enforced, kids are
resilient.
(05:42):
I love how you said that.
Sometimes it may be hard atfirst.
And I think there's a lessonthere.
And I kind of want to dig intothat for anybody wanting to cut
back on their screen time.
So it's it's a mom, it's a dad,it's a kid, it's a family doing
this together, which would beamazing.
What is some practical advicethat you can give us?
SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
So, before I think we go into what are some things
that we can do, I think it'sreally important to understand
what is actually happening inour brain when we are using our
phones, our screens, our socialmedia.
So I'm gonna walk you throughsome brain science, if that's
okay.
Um, of course, our brain is verycomplex and very uh there's so
(06:27):
many things happening.
However, I've I've tried tosimplify it in a way that's easy
for us to understand.
And so I want to focus on theidea of dopamine.
So dopamine is aneurotransmitter that lives in
our brain and is produced whenwe experience uh pleasure or
something positive.
(06:48):
And it's our it's our feel-goodneurotransmitter.
So uh with phones, with socialmedia, you know, every post,
every picture, everynotification, you're getting a
small dopamine hit.
And so when we're scrolling,we're you know, we're seeing
things, they're funny, um, maybethey're sexual in nature and
(07:11):
exciting, they're they'revalidating to our emotions.
Sometimes they're negative oryou know, they evoke some anger
or frustration.
But again, it's that stimulationthat we begin to create.
Um, and you know, liking to tothe slot machine, like what's
coming next, right?
The way that I look at what Ilike to consider is fast
(07:34):
dopamine.
So it's essentially those easy,it doesn't create, it doesn't
take a lot of effort to get.
And so that's the world thatwe're living in today, where we
never had such an ease andaccess where I could just open
my phone, push a button, and youknow, something arrives at my
doorstep.
And so, you know, it's fun, it'sfast, it's easy.
(07:56):
I liken it to like junk food,right?
It's good, it's delicious, butwe don't want to overconsume it
because that's not good for us.
And so our scrolling, our likes,our notifications, our you know,
binge washing, it's all of thatfast dopamine.
And that's what attaches us toour phone because we're getting
these spikes of dopamine in ourreward center.
(08:19):
It's um it's effortless, right?
We're we can do it from our bedor from our couch.
And with fast dopamine, what wefind is it's that it's kind of
like that that spike up ofdopamine, and then we come
crashing from it.
It's it's uh, you know, you kindof come down, and that's where
you might start to feel bored orrestless or anxious.
(08:41):
And then many of us sometimeseven unconsciously, it's when
you grab your phone and youdon't even realize you're
grabbing it because your brainis like seeking that next bit,
right?
And so we kind of live in thisplace now where we're we're so
used to this fast dopamine, thisjunk food that we're getting.
And I want to pair that withslow dopamine.
(09:04):
So it's so dopamine isn't a badthing, it's a really good thing.
It's supposed to motivate us forreward.
But traditionally, what doesthat look like?
Um, you know, I'm gonna go andcook a meal, right?
Instead of just clickingsomething on my phone and it's
showing up on my doorstep, I'mgonna open my recipe book, I'm
(09:24):
gonna go to the grocery store,get the ingredients, I'm gonna
come home, I'm gonna prep, I'mgonna put it in the oven and
wait 45 minutes for it to cook,put it on my plate and eat it.
So if you think about that, I'mgetting that dopamine, you know,
at the at at through this eventand through this accomplishment
that I've made this meal and thetaste and you know, all of that.
(09:45):
But there was so much processalong the way, same with working
out.
You it takes a lot of, it takeseffort from you to then
experience the dopamine thatfollows.
Same with reading a book, um,same with completing a project
or a task.
It's that slow dopamine requiresthe effort.
We're turning on more um partsof our brain, our prefrontal
(10:10):
cortex, which is responsible forimpulse control, for you know,
patients, for you know,future-oriented thinking.
And so if you think about thesetasks that end in reward, we're
actually pulling from you knowother neurotransmitters and
other parts of our brain.
And so what we see with thatdopamine, what's happening, is
(10:31):
it's not an instant hit, it'sthis gradual rise, and then we
sit there for a little bit andthen a a a dip down back to
baseline.
And so you don't crash as easyas you do, like when you're
scrolling, and then all of asudden it stops.
And so I think that picture isreally important to paint.
(10:51):
And I try to paint that picturefor um my older kids and my
parents because I want I wantthem to understand that when we
live in this fast dopamine placewhere that is that is you know
where we're we're experiencingthat to the the real world
starts to feel boring.
(11:12):
We don't have the bandwidth andthe patience to sit through
something, to sit down and reada book, or to go for a walk
without your phone or withoutmusic or without you know
anything, you know, in your ear.
And so we have to kind of detoxourself from that and learn to
(11:33):
relearn to experience the thedopamine that requires effort,
right?
Reward comes from that effort.
But we live in a culture nowwhere it's so easy.
SPEAKER_02 (11:46):
You painted such a great picture for us of how we
can explain that to our kidsbecause they don't understand,
especially if they haven'texperienced the low dopamine
building process that we grew upwith.
You know, I feel like this iswhere parent wisdom really can
come in in some conversations,because how you describe making
(12:08):
a meal.
And that process is creatingpatience and grit and
resilience, like all thesecharacter traits that we are
needed in our world.
And if we can educate our kidson that, maybe they will be more
motivated to make some changesand kind of start to see how
their phones and screens areaffecting them.
SPEAKER_03 (12:30):
I'm always surprised how my teenagers that I get to
work with are so receptive whenI am able to talk to them about
these things and how their brainis actually working.
And what, you know, I think mymy reputation is, you know, if
if if you end up with me in thetherapy room, like you know
(12:50):
you're gonna get someneuroscience, you know, as part
of it.
And and they're and they are,and parents especially too, to
be able to understand that, itstarts, you know, starts to make
sense.
And then you start to really beable to see, okay, well, what
can I do differently?
Right?
What are the things that I canengage in that are gonna help
kind of reset how my brain isfunctioning, where I'm not
(13:13):
feeling this pull and thisaddiction to my phone or social
media because it's hard.
It's hard, it's so easy.
Um, and so going back to youryour original question of, you
know, what do we do?
How do we kind of essentiallydetox from that?
And um, you know, I would saystep out into things that that
again create that that slowdopamine.
(13:34):
So thinking about um a newskill, you know, try reading a
book, even if you have to startsmall, you know, five minutes at
a time, like start to train yourbrain to sit in these spaces
that are a little slower moving.
I think one of my the biggestones that actually that I will
recommend to people is to go fora walk.
Go for a walk without listeningto anything.
(13:57):
And I'll tell them, listen tonature.
What do you hear?
What do you smell?
What do you see?
Um, because I think it withinnature is incredibly healing.
Um, our kids are not spendingenough enough time outside.
And you know, when we're not onour phone, we're engaging our
(14:17):
eyes and our ears.
But when we step out intonature, like we engage all of
our senses.
We get to slow down.
And again, through that, you'regoing to get that dopamine.
You're going to feel so good.
Um, it just takes a little bitlonger, but I think the reward
feels so much better.
And so I really tried to telland encourage uh some of my
(14:40):
patients, like, just startthere.
Just go around your block.
I remember just telling this tosomebody, you know, within the
last month, just go around theblock without the headphones,
without a podcast, without themusic.
And they came back and they saidthey did, and they were quite
surprised.
Like, wow, that that was kind ofpeaceful.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
I think that's so interesting because when I walk,
I I do have my my music on, orI'm listening to a podcast, and
I don't equate that with screennews.
For some reason, in my brain,it's like that's fine, but you
are so right and engaging all ofour senses.
And I never really have thoughtabout it like that.
I think it's such a good point.
(15:18):
The other thing I wanted to sayis you were talking, I recently
got sent a TikTok video of ayoung adult, a teenager young
adult.
I'm not quite sure the exactage, but she was raw dogging.
Have you ever heard that term?
Because it was new to me.
I think I saw your post.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
So what did it?
(15:38):
Yeah.
So what was so interesting isthere's this TikTok trend going
on right now.
Who knows how long it'll last,right?
May just be a couple days.
But it's it's teenagers andyoung adults where they are
forcing themselves to go intosilence.
So just like what you said, nomusic, no nothing.
And they are sitting thereexisting and being bored because
(16:00):
they want to retrain their brainbecause they've realized that
exactly what you're talkingabout, these dopamine hits.
And the TikTok videos that I'vegotten sent, I've gotten sent so
many of them.
And every one of them, I look atthis kid and I'm like, are their
parents educating about thedopamine and what it's doing to
their brain?
And now they're trying torecorrect.
Like, where's this coming from?
(16:22):
But I love the trend of it.
SPEAKER_03 (16:24):
Yeah, I I did see that in I appreciate the
discussion that it is creating.
And and yeah, you know, there'sa level I think of kids
realizing the importance ofboredom.
On the other hand, I I think mycritical end saw it through the
level of, okay, you're stilldoing this for likes and to post
(16:45):
it on social media.
So that reward, right, is thatthose those quick dopamine hits.
How many likes can I get fromthis?
Or how many, you know, how can Igo viral, right?
Am I gonna go viral?
So truthfully, if if you know,if I was standing in front of
those TikTokers, I would say, Ithink the true challenge is
putting your phone away and justgoing outside for a walk and
(17:06):
don't post it to show anybody.
Just do it for you, right?
So is it bad?
No, I'm not mad about it.
Like, good, I I love theawareness, but there's there's
an underlying motivation inthere where I'd rather just see
you put the phone away.
Cause um, I think that's that'swhere true, you know, true
healing is really gonna begin.
SPEAKER_02 (17:26):
That's where true change happens, is when you're
doing it not to not to tellanybody about it, not to post
about it.
That was such a good point,Christine.
I'm so glad, I'm so glad yousaid that.
It moving in the rightdirection, but we're still
getting that dopamine from allthe likes.
And and when you were talkingabout dopamine earlier and the
likes, too, like, you know,never have have in has anyone
(17:50):
been so able to reach likecelebrities.
Because I feel like that's wherea lot of dopamine hits come in.
You know, a teenager postssomething and then their
favorite celebrity retweets itor comments or something.
And it it's just this this likelonging to be known and that
dopamine hit, and just I don'tknow, it's just not good for our
(18:14):
mental health.
For you can see it.
You can see there's always thischasing, the chasing that
happens.
And how you're presenting it, Ilove just the slowing down, the
enjoying the process, the nottelling anyone about it.
It's so valuable.
Let me ask you this, Christina,as we're talking about, you
(18:34):
know, teaching kids and modelingthis in our home, this slow
process, this learning.
So you've in a you have a threeand a five-year-old.
Like, how do you do that withthem?
You have all this expertise fromyour professional life.
How do you bring that into yourliving room at night?
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
I'll never forget coming home from the hospital uh
with my son and thinking, andand mind you, I'm a therapist
and I I you know, working is howI'm working.
And I just remember thinking,like, they don't why they're
letting me go home with this?
Like, I don't get a manual, Idon't get a you know, rule book.
Like, and and I say that becauseit's incredibly hard.
(19:13):
And I I feel very grateful thatI do get to do what I do for a
living because I do think itgives me a different perspective
when I do uh uh raise mychildren.
But I I say that to for parentsto give themselves grace because
we don't get that handbook whenwe come out of the the hospital
(19:34):
and take our kiddos home.
And you know, I think mygeneration was one of the last
to grow up without uhsmartphones and you know social
media.
So this is still really new.
Like the data that we'relearning and researching is is
coming out, and so you know,parents have had to navigate
this.
Um and it's been it's it's hard,it's very hard, and it's it's
(19:57):
moving quicker, I think, than wecan keep up with, right?
As far as um bestrecommendations.
So for me, as I, you know, mykids came into this world and I
started um I actually it startedwith my gift registry, if you
could think of that from my babyshower.
I remember seeing some of themost like, oh, baby toys and
(20:21):
this and that, and things thatwere lighting up and making
sounds, and you know, all ofthese kind of crazy toys.
And I, you know, I think, youknow, I I leaned into a little
of like the Montessori style,you know, wooden blocks and um
less stimulation, right?
Because and that's what I swhere I started with them,
because I I wanted to allow themthe opportunity to build and
(20:48):
create with a basic set ofblocks.
You can do that, you know.
But if you have all thisstimulation and noise and toys
and lights and you know, some ofthat's great.
Not that my kids didn't have anyof those things, but I really
have tried to lean into more ofthose less stimulating, kind of
(21:09):
less, you know, loud and songkind of toys, lights and all of
that, because I didn't want tooverstimulate them.
I wanted them to be able from Ithink a young age, just learn to
be able to sit in silence andbuild or create.
(21:29):
And so, you know, now thatthey're three and
five-year-olds, um, you know, Istill try to hold true to that.
Mind you, they of course theyhave some sound things and light
things, but I I do still try tohave that mindfulness when
engaging in with toys with them.
There's a book that I had readcalled Raising Mentally Strong
(21:49):
Kids, and in that book, Dr.
Eamon really stresses the ideaof starting to teach your your
your children about their brainand healthy brain development.
So we can share all these thingswith our teenagers, but really
it should start when they'rethree years old, right?
When they're five years old.
And so we we play this game, andagain, I got this idea from um
(22:12):
the author, you know, we're allopposed to my children, you
know, we we just had Halloween,and so they had Halloween candy.
Is this good for your brain oris this bad for your brain?
You know, and they're like, oh,that's bad for our brain.
Can you still have it and enjoyit a little bit here and there?
Of course.
But they're starting to makethat association.
You know, we have eggs in themorning.
(22:34):
Is that good for your brain oris that bad for your brain?
Oh, that's good, you know, forour brain.
And so they're starting to learnthat there are, you know,
there's a reason we don't eatcandy all day long, right?
Because certain things are gonnahelp our brain and certain
things won't.
And we do that with technologytoo.
My kids know, you know, is TBgood for your brain or bad for
your brain?
Or, you know, they don't have aniPad.
(22:55):
I have an iPad, but I have oneor two games, like if we we
recently went on vacation, so onthe airplane, they get to play.
And so it's that idea of is thisgood for your brain or bad for
your brain?
And I remember one time, I'llshare this quick story.
My son, uh, I had allowed him touse uh, he's five now, so he
gets it sparingly, maybe once ortwice a month for 10 minutes or
(23:18):
so where he can play a littlegame.
And the one time I had left himon the couch and he's playing
this game.
I got busy in the kitchen.
Next thing I know, I look overand he's sitting right there and
he's like, Mom, here you go.
This is bad for my brain.
And so just the fact that he wasstarting to able to absorb that
and learn that for himself, youknow, is just so telling.
(23:39):
And so if we can start ourchildren off young, just helping
to educate them, just to havethat awareness, I think it's
gonna pay off, right?
When they're older.
SPEAKER_02 (23:49):
That's a perfect example.
You know, I always tell parents,you're parenting a phone years
before they get a phone.
And this is a perfect examplebecause you're tea, you're
having these littleconversations with him about
candy and his diet, and that'stranslating into the digital
world so that when he does earna phone eventually, and you're
walking him through thatprocess, all these years he's
(24:12):
he's thought about is this goodfor my brain or bad for my
brain?
Because you've implemented thatin your home and he's gonna
think about that on the thingsthat he's looking at on social
media and scrolling through.
SPEAKER_03 (24:21):
Again, I think it's it's it's absolutely influenced
by the work that I do.
But then, you know, just being amom and trying to be mindful of
that, and it's hard, you know.
Sometimes screens, you know, areeasier.
Like if if if I put on a moviefor them, like I can get things
done and it's amazing.
But, you know, at what cost?
(24:41):
One of the things that I'll I'lltell parents a lot too, who tend
to get really overwhelmed and Ihave so much to do and you know,
clean the house and this andthat, and I and I'll always tell
them, I'll say, you know what,parenting is a lot easier
outside.
And I what I mean by that,especially with littles, like if
I leave them in my home to playwith their toys, like I mean, it
looks like a tornado wentthrough.
But if I get them up and getthem ready and we get out the
(25:02):
door, um, we go to the park orwe go on, you know, nature
trails, not only does my houseget to stay clean, but they just
get to experience the world andnature and and play with rocks
and sticks and running.
And it is just it is just somuch more easy.
And then they burn energy,right?
And they come home and they'renot as running around the house
(25:23):
and things like that.
And so I really encourage, youknow, parents just get them
outside, just just take thattime because it pays off in the
long run.
And I think it can just bereally helpful, not just for
their development, but for yourfor the parent as well, um, and
their own mental health and andgetting outside and stepping
away from from the home.
SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
I think you give have given us some such
practical advice for especiallyuh parents of young kids, right?
Because the toy thing that youwere talking about, like I I
wouldn't even have thought ofthat, quite honestly.
And and as you were talkingabout them building blocks
versus just pushing a button andhearing a sound, my mind just
(26:04):
went to what you just said aboutyou're baking your meal, right?
You're teaching yourtwo-year-old to work to build
the tower or make something outof blocks.
Like it's effort before they getthe reward or the dopamine hit.
And that's just such a greatconcept to teach littles.
(26:25):
That's that's easy, honestly.
And and really, if you like youthink about it, I like how you
compare, you know, there arebenefits, yes, to the mental
health of a child gettingoutside, but it's also a benefit
to keeping your house clean andnot being, I mean, it's easier
to parent outside.
I love how you said that.
But I would say also, like, likeas you're thinking of a of a
young parent trying to navigateall this, and you we everybody's
(26:48):
busy, right?
Them spending hours building ablock, it's gonna keep them
preoccupied too.
If and and it's gonna cre gettheir little mind going more
than just a two-hour movie,right?
And not to say you can't plopthem down for movie night, of
course, but what we're saying ishave a balanced approach and
make sure that's not your go-toall the time as to set them in
(27:10):
front of a screen.
SPEAKER_03 (27:11):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And that's not to say, like Isaid, we have Friday movie
nights at my house, and the kidsvery much look forward to that.
And so we, you know, we have ourour time in front of the screen.
And and truthfully, too, I knowI have read uh if you're you're
little, so the AmericanPediatric Society says no
(27:31):
screens under 18 months, whichquite frankly is not old enough.
Um, but again, you know, I havea five-year-old, and so this
idea of how do I start tointroduce him, because he'll
he'll be in kinder next year,you know, and going into a true
elementary school where, youknow, it's the exposure is gonna
(27:55):
be there and the technology of,you know, entering school is
gonna be there.
So I don't want to becometotally naive, but it's the idea
if if you are gonna allow yourchildren um screen time, it's
best when you're doing it withthem and you're at this age,
right?
You want to sit alongside them,and if he is playing a little
game, you can sit there and talkabout that and still have that
(28:15):
relational component to it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:17):
I love that.
You talked a lot about nature,and you know, I I kept thinking,
you know, getting out in naturejust as adults too, and and and
making sure your kids areoutside.
It reminded me of JonathanHeit's book, you know, the bring
back the childhood, bring givekids a childhood, delay the
(28:37):
screens.
Are you I I'm I think that'sexactly what you're saying here,
as far as how important gettingoutside and enjoying nature is
for our kids.
SPEAKER_03 (28:46):
Yes, I've read his book, and um, you know, I I I
think he has a lot of greatideas, um, and I'm excited how
you know viral that his bookwent, that and how popular it
became.
Um I actually, and what startedmy own journey into looking in
technology and and how it'saffecting us, I um some years
(29:09):
ago, I read this book called TheLast Child in the Woods uh by
Richard, Richard Loaf, I thinkis how you pronounce his name.
And he coined the term naturedeficit disorder.
And this book was published in2005.
And so if you think about wherewe were as a society in 2005, we
didn't have the social media andthe smartphones that we do now.
(29:33):
But for me, the fact that healready started seeing our kids
are being pulled out of natureand sat at home in front of TVs
and started associating thatwith you know, we're we're
disconnecting ourselves from,we're disconnecting our youth
from nature.
Um, and again, that idea to becreative, to explore, there's a
(29:57):
level of risk in nature, kidsclimbing.
Trees, all of that sort ofthings that are so important in
growth and development.
I think within his book too, atsome point he referenced just
the for our immunity and thingslike that as well.
There is so much benefit in justbeing able to be in our
(30:21):
environment.
And so I know that's hard.
Majority of households live incities, but you know, it could
be as simple as just going to apark, you know, finding a little
bit of a piece of a green space.
Um, I know we're lucky here tohave some really great nature
centers in our city, but Ihighly encourage to, you know,
especially if you want to detoxyour home a little bit of some
(30:43):
of that, you know, social mediaand screen time is to just get
out and explore.
Again, going back to theAmerican Pediatric Association,
say I think kids are spending onaverage it's less like 10
minutes or less outside playinga day when then they're spending
upwards, you know, five, six,seven hours on their screens.
Like we are, we are backwards,right?
(31:03):
Um, and so how do we encouragemore outdoor play, outdoor
exploration?
There's so much growth thathappens there.
Um, and I'd hate to see our kidslose out on that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:16):
Okay, that term you used, I hadn't heard it before.
So it was nature deficitdisorder.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_03 (31:24):
Yeah, it's not a true medical term, and I should
have said that.
So it's not an actual ummedical, it's just it's a term
he coined and hopes, you know,that and it has caught on some,
yes, but nature deficitdisorder.
SPEAKER_02 (31:37):
I think that's actually brilliant.
And you said he he said it in2005.
So just for context, she'sright.
Uh, Facebook was invented in2004, Instagram was invented in
2010.
So Instagram is a big one forour kids.
Uh, he was ahead of his time.
He had foresight into sayingwe're gonna have a problem here
(31:58):
because we're gonna go inwardand be inside on screens, and
we're gonna have this naturedeficit disorder.
And, you know, now you haveJonathan Hyatt coming along too,
and the research is coming outnow, and he's packaging it up
and it's reaching families.
And so we just need to beintentional.
And you guys know at Next Talk,we're not anti-tech.
Like my kids have phones, we wehave phones, but but we need to
(32:21):
be the boss of our screens, notthe screens be the boss of us.
Like that is the key.
And Christina, I love how youhave kind of simplified how to
talk to our kids about dopamine,but also like just simple things
we can do, make adjustments athome with our littles to help as
(32:42):
we get toys for them or how wetalk to them about what's good
for their for their brain andnot good for their brain.
You've you've just been a wealthof information.
Is there anything else?
We have a lot of parents thatlisten to Next Talk with a lot
of different ages.
And I know you have littles, butyou also counsel teenagers.
Is there anything that you wouldlike to say to our parents?
SPEAKER_03 (33:03):
You know, I get, you know, kind of going back to what
I said that, you know, givingyourself grace this is not easy.
Um, you are there trying tosupport and provide for your
families, like it's it's hard,you know.
I would say, you know, also justdon't be afraid to ask for help
if you need it.
I think sometimes how do Iactually implement this?
And and even listening to thepodcast or reading the books can
(33:26):
be incredibly helpful, butsometimes it, you know, you need
a little more support than that.
Um, and so I'll oftentimes seefamilies that come in and we do
a lot of parent coaching justaround okay, how do we start
making these steps?
What does that look like?
Let's have these conversationstogether.
Yeah, we just again, Mandy, I'mjust so grateful for what you're
(33:46):
doing because I think when weknow better, we can do better.
And so spreading that educationand awareness around what our
kids are up against is just soimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
Well, thank you for all the information you
provided.
It was invaluable.
And um, I hope you won't be astranger to the Next Talk
podcast.
So let us know if you see anydeveloping trends that you think
we need to talk about.
Just shoot me an email and we'lltalk about it.
SPEAKER_03 (34:13):
Absolutely.
Look forward to chatting withyou again soon.
SPEAKER_02 (34:18):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
Next Talk is a 501c3 nonprofit keeping kids safe
online.
To support our work, make adonation at next talk.org.
Next talk resources are notintended to replace the advice
of a trained healthcare or legalprofessional, or to diagnose,
treat, or otherwise renderexpert advice regarding any type
of medical, psychological,legal, financial, or other
problem.
You are advised to consult aqualified expert for your
(34:40):
personal treatment plan.
Welcome to the Next Talk Podcast.
We are a nonprofit passionateabout keeping kids safe online.
We're learning together how tonavigate tech, culture, and
faith with our kids.
We are joined today withChristina Fields.
I recently met her and I'vegotten to know her.
(00:21):
Our team has, and she is just awealth of information.
Christina, will you introduceyourself to the Next Talk
listeners and tell us a littlebit about yourself
professionally and personally?
SPEAKER_03 (00:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let me start first, though,Mandy, by saying thank you for
having me here.
I'm just so excited about thework that Next Talk is doing,
that you're doing, and theeducation that you are giving to
our community that is so needed.
And so I'm excited to be hereand partner with you and just
support all of the amazingthings that you're putting out
there.
My name is Christina Fields.
(00:51):
I am a licensed marriage andfamily therapist.
I'm also serving as a facultyspecialist in the Department of
Psychiatry and Behavioral Healthat UT Health San Antonio.
I work in child psychiatry andI've been there about 12 years
or so.
And so along my career path,I've just been able to be
surrounded by some of theexperts in this field.
(01:13):
And I'm just so privileged to beable to share a little piece of
that with y'all today.
So personally, I have a I'm awife and a mother to a three and
a five-year-old, which has justbeen a fun ride.
The hardest thing and the bestthing at the same time is what I
(01:34):
tell everybody.
And so we are starting to kindof navigate the technology, you
know, and introducing what thatmight look like for them, um,
even at their young ages.
And so something I'm verycognizant about and constantly
paying attention to in my ownhome.
SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
Thank you so much.
I love having you here.
We we met, um, I was presentingto the Department of Psychiatry,
the where you where you work.
And it was such an honor to beable to meet all these mental
health providers that were doingamazing work and wanting to
learn more about online dangersand the work of Next Talk.
And so we just connected and itimmediately right away knew that
(02:14):
we had the same passion for kidsand families.
You know, Christina, we weretalking recently about
phone-free schools in Texas andwhat we were seeing with that.
And you had observed some thingsas a counselor.
I wanted you to share that firstof all as we as we kick off this
show.
SPEAKER_03 (02:32):
Yeah, so I have the opportunity um to see uh young
people, teenagers that are inour schools.
And when this, you know, we weregoing back into the new school
year, it was something I waschecking in on and seeing how
everybody was feeling.
And I'll never forget um one ofthem had told me, you know, oh
(02:54):
my gosh, we're going back to the90s.
And I tried really hard not totake offense to that.
But um, you know, it was it wasreally stressful, and it was
really um, you know, what am Igonna do?
People, you know, um needed themusic, right?
I need my headphones, I need tobe able to listen to something.
(03:14):
And so I would, you know, wasconstantly hearing just a lot of
the anxiety, and actually notjust at the level of the the
kids themselves, but there was alot of parent anxiety too of how
am I gonna reach my kid?
How um what if somethinghappens?
And so um, you know, I kind ofspent some of that time in the
beginning just trying to givethem a lot of education and how
this can be helpful andequipping them with like, well,
(03:36):
you know, what does researchtell us about you know having
your phone in the school and howit does distract you and steal
your attention, it makes youperform uh lower end tests,
things like that.
And so some of them were verysurprised by these things.
Um, but yeah, I think there wasa little a little panic in in
some of the kids, and some evensaid they were gonna go get old
school um the music devices justso that they could have that
(03:59):
that music, yeah, the iPod.
Um, so that they could just havethat music and you know, again,
stimulation because they're notused to having nothing.
So yeah, I saw I saw a bit ofthat in the beginning.
SPEAKER_02 (04:12):
And then we're we're several months in now.
What are you seeing now?
Has there been any shifts or anynew information that you're
gathering as you've kind ofmonitored this situation?
SPEAKER_03 (04:22):
Our kids are so resilient, and I think we don't
give young people enough creditfor that.
And I think when you do umintroduce, you know, new rules
or things like that, as long asyou know we we we stick to it
and enforce it, I do think thatthere is a level of you know
adjustment.
And again, it it takes a coupleof weeks, maybe a month.
(04:42):
Um, but I did see that in a lotof the my patients that I did
see that they started to getused to it.
Um, some have mentioned, youknow, they had teachers that
enforced a pretty hard policybefore this.
So it was some of them it was alittle bit familiar.
Um, and then I'll say there wasalso kind of the other half
where I noticed they wereactually being able to use their
(05:06):
phones in the school as well, orsome of the policies were not
being as enforced as strongly inthe beginning or during lunch or
during free periods and thingslike that.
So I think that probably gavethem a sense of ease um around,
you know, the shift that washappening.
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
Well, and I I've seen that too.
Some of the school districts.
Um I am what I'm seeing from thenext talk perspective is the
same as what you are seeing as acounselor is um is the schools,
some of them have gotten laxedand they actually are using
their phones more than theyshould be.
And the other part is if it isstill being enforced, kids are
resilient.
(05:42):
I love how you said that.
Sometimes it may be hard atfirst.
And I think there's a lessonthere.
And I kind of want to dig intothat for anybody wanting to cut
back on their screen time.
So it's it's a mom, it's a dad,it's a kid, it's a family doing
this together, which would beamazing.
What is some practical advicethat you can give us?
SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
So, before I think we go into what are some things
that we can do, I think it'sreally important to understand
what is actually happening inour brain when we are using our
phones, our screens, our socialmedia.
So I'm gonna walk you throughsome brain science, if that's
okay.
Um, of course, our brain is verycomplex and very uh there's so
(06:27):
many things happening.
However, I've I've tried tosimplify it in a way that's easy
for us to understand.
And so I want to focus on theidea of dopamine.
So dopamine is aneurotransmitter that lives in
our brain and is produced whenwe experience uh pleasure or
something positive.
(06:48):
And it's our it's our feel-goodneurotransmitter.
So uh with phones, with socialmedia, you know, every post,
every picture, everynotification, you're getting a
small dopamine hit.
And so when we're scrolling,we're you know, we're seeing
things, they're funny, um, maybethey're sexual in nature and
(07:11):
exciting, they're they'revalidating to our emotions.
Sometimes they're negative oryou know, they evoke some anger
or frustration.
But again, it's that stimulationthat we begin to create.
Um, and you know, liking to tothe slot machine, like what's
coming next, right?
The way that I look at what Ilike to consider is fast
(07:34):
dopamine.
So it's essentially those easy,it doesn't create, it doesn't
take a lot of effort to get.
And so that's the world thatwe're living in today, where we
never had such an ease andaccess where I could just open
my phone, push a button, and youknow, something arrives at my
doorstep.
And so, you know, it's fun, it'sfast, it's easy.
(07:56):
I liken it to like junk food,right?
It's good, it's delicious, butwe don't want to overconsume it
because that's not good for us.
And so our scrolling, our likes,our notifications, our you know,
binge washing, it's all of thatfast dopamine.
And that's what attaches us toour phone because we're getting
these spikes of dopamine in ourreward center.
(08:19):
It's um it's effortless, right?
We're we can do it from our bedor from our couch.
And with fast dopamine, what wefind is it's that it's kind of
like that that spike up ofdopamine, and then we come
crashing from it.
It's it's uh, you know, you kindof come down, and that's where
you might start to feel bored orrestless or anxious.
(08:41):
And then many of us sometimeseven unconsciously, it's when
you grab your phone and youdon't even realize you're
grabbing it because your brainis like seeking that next bit,
right?
And so we kind of live in thisplace now where we're we're so
used to this fast dopamine, thisjunk food that we're getting.
And I want to pair that withslow dopamine.
(09:04):
So it's so dopamine isn't a badthing, it's a really good thing.
It's supposed to motivate us forreward.
But traditionally, what doesthat look like?
Um, you know, I'm gonna go andcook a meal, right?
Instead of just clickingsomething on my phone and it's
showing up on my doorstep, I'mgonna open my recipe book, I'm
(09:24):
gonna go to the grocery store,get the ingredients, I'm gonna
come home, I'm gonna prep, I'mgonna put it in the oven and
wait 45 minutes for it to cook,put it on my plate and eat it.
So if you think about that, I'mgetting that dopamine, you know,
at the at at through this eventand through this accomplishment
that I've made this meal and thetaste and you know, all of that.
(09:45):
But there was so much processalong the way, same with working
out.
You it takes a lot of, it takeseffort from you to then
experience the dopamine thatfollows.
Same with reading a book, um,same with completing a project
or a task.
It's that slow dopamine requiresthe effort.
We're turning on more um partsof our brain, our prefrontal
(10:10):
cortex, which is responsible forimpulse control, for you know,
patients, for you know,future-oriented thinking.
And so if you think about thesetasks that end in reward, we're
actually pulling from you knowother neurotransmitters and
other parts of our brain.
And so what we see with thatdopamine, what's happening, is
(10:31):
it's not an instant hit, it'sthis gradual rise, and then we
sit there for a little bit andthen a a a dip down back to
baseline.
And so you don't crash as easyas you do, like when you're
scrolling, and then all of asudden it stops.
And so I think that picture isreally important to paint.
(10:51):
And I try to paint that picturefor um my older kids and my
parents because I want I wantthem to understand that when we
live in this fast dopamine placewhere that is that is you know
where we're we're experiencingthat to the the real world
starts to feel boring.
(11:12):
We don't have the bandwidth andthe patience to sit through
something, to sit down and reada book, or to go for a walk
without your phone or withoutmusic or without you know
anything, you know, in your ear.
And so we have to kind of detoxourself from that and learn to
(11:33):
relearn to experience the thedopamine that requires effort,
right?
Reward comes from that effort.
But we live in a culture nowwhere it's so easy.
SPEAKER_02 (11:46):
You painted such a great picture for us of how we
can explain that to our kidsbecause they don't understand,
especially if they haven'texperienced the low dopamine
building process that we grew upwith.
You know, I feel like this iswhere parent wisdom really can
come in in some conversations,because how you describe making
(12:08):
a meal.
And that process is creatingpatience and grit and
resilience, like all thesecharacter traits that we are
needed in our world.
And if we can educate our kidson that, maybe they will be more
motivated to make some changesand kind of start to see how
their phones and screens areaffecting them.
SPEAKER_03 (12:30):
I'm always surprised how my teenagers that I get to
work with are so receptive whenI am able to talk to them about
these things and how their brainis actually working.
And what, you know, I think mymy reputation is, you know, if
if if you end up with me in thetherapy room, like you know
(12:50):
you're gonna get someneuroscience, you know, as part
of it.
And and they're and they are,and parents especially too, to
be able to understand that, itstarts, you know, starts to make
sense.
And then you start to really beable to see, okay, well, what
can I do differently?
Right?
What are the things that I canengage in that are gonna help
kind of reset how my brain isfunctioning, where I'm not
(13:13):
feeling this pull and thisaddiction to my phone or social
media because it's hard.
It's hard, it's so easy.
Um, and so going back to youryour original question of, you
know, what do we do?
How do we kind of essentiallydetox from that?
And um, you know, I would saystep out into things that that
again create that that slowdopamine.
(13:34):
So thinking about um a newskill, you know, try reading a
book, even if you have to startsmall, you know, five minutes at
a time, like start to train yourbrain to sit in these spaces
that are a little slower moving.
I think one of my the biggestones that actually that I will
recommend to people is to go fora walk.
Go for a walk without listeningto anything.
(13:57):
And I'll tell them, listen tonature.
What do you hear?
What do you smell?
What do you see?
Um, because I think it withinnature is incredibly healing.
Um, our kids are not spendingenough enough time outside.
And you know, when we're not onour phone, we're engaging our
(14:17):
eyes and our ears.
But when we step out intonature, like we engage all of
our senses.
We get to slow down.
And again, through that, you'regoing to get that dopamine.
You're going to feel so good.
Um, it just takes a little bitlonger, but I think the reward
feels so much better.
And so I really tried to telland encourage uh some of my
(14:40):
patients, like, just startthere.
Just go around your block.
I remember just telling this tosomebody, you know, within the
last month, just go around theblock without the headphones,
without a podcast, without themusic.
And they came back and they saidthey did, and they were quite
surprised.
Like, wow, that that was kind ofpeaceful.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
I think that's so interesting because when I walk,
I I do have my my music on, orI'm listening to a podcast, and
I don't equate that with screennews.
For some reason, in my brain,it's like that's fine, but you
are so right and engaging all ofour senses.
And I never really have thoughtabout it like that.
I think it's such a good point.
(15:18):
The other thing I wanted to sayis you were talking, I recently
got sent a TikTok video of ayoung adult, a teenager young
adult.
I'm not quite sure the exactage, but she was raw dogging.
Have you ever heard that term?
Because it was new to me.
I think I saw your post.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
So what did it?
(15:38):
Yeah.
So what was so interesting isthere's this TikTok trend going
on right now.
Who knows how long it'll last,right?
May just be a couple days.
But it's it's teenagers andyoung adults where they are
forcing themselves to go intosilence.
So just like what you said, nomusic, no nothing.
And they are sitting thereexisting and being bored because
(16:00):
they want to retrain their brainbecause they've realized that
exactly what you're talkingabout, these dopamine hits.
And the TikTok videos that I'vegotten sent, I've gotten sent so
many of them.
And every one of them, I look atthis kid and I'm like, are their
parents educating about thedopamine and what it's doing to
their brain?
And now they're trying torecorrect.
Like, where's this coming from?
(16:22):
But I love the trend of it.
SPEAKER_03 (16:24):
Yeah, I I did see that in I appreciate the
discussion that it is creating.
And and yeah, you know, there'sa level I think of kids
realizing the importance ofboredom.
On the other hand, I I think mycritical end saw it through the
level of, okay, you're stilldoing this for likes and to post
(16:45):
it on social media.
So that reward, right, is thatthose those quick dopamine hits.
How many likes can I get fromthis?
Or how many, you know, how can Igo viral, right?
Am I gonna go viral?
So truthfully, if if you know,if I was standing in front of
those TikTokers, I would say, Ithink the true challenge is
putting your phone away and justgoing outside for a walk and
(17:06):
don't post it to show anybody.
Just do it for you, right?
So is it bad?
No, I'm not mad about it.
Like, good, I I love theawareness, but there's there's
an underlying motivation inthere where I'd rather just see
you put the phone away.
Cause um, I think that's that'swhere true, you know, true
healing is really gonna begin.
SPEAKER_02 (17:26):
That's where true change happens, is when you're
doing it not to not to tellanybody about it, not to post
about it.
That was such a good point,Christine.
I'm so glad, I'm so glad yousaid that.
It moving in the rightdirection, but we're still
getting that dopamine from allthe likes.
And and when you were talkingabout dopamine earlier and the
likes, too, like, you know,never have have in has anyone
(17:50):
been so able to reach likecelebrities.
Because I feel like that's wherea lot of dopamine hits come in.
You know, a teenager postssomething and then their
favorite celebrity retweets itor comments or something.
And it it's just this this likelonging to be known and that
dopamine hit, and just I don'tknow, it's just not good for our
(18:14):
mental health.
For you can see it.
You can see there's always thischasing, the chasing that
happens.
And how you're presenting it, Ilove just the slowing down, the
enjoying the process, the nottelling anyone about it.
It's so valuable.
Let me ask you this, Christina,as we're talking about, you
(18:34):
know, teaching kids and modelingthis in our home, this slow
process, this learning.
So you've in a you have a threeand a five-year-old.
Like, how do you do that withthem?
You have all this expertise fromyour professional life.
How do you bring that into yourliving room at night?
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
I'll never forget coming home from the hospital uh
with my son and thinking, andand mind you, I'm a therapist
and I I you know, working is howI'm working.
And I just remember thinking,like, they don't why they're
letting me go home with this?
Like, I don't get a manual, Idon't get a you know, rule book.
Like, and and I say that becauseit's incredibly hard.
(19:13):
And I I feel very grateful thatI do get to do what I do for a
living because I do think itgives me a different perspective
when I do uh uh raise mychildren.
But I I say that to for parentsto give themselves grace because
we don't get that handbook whenwe come out of the the hospital
(19:34):
and take our kiddos home.
And you know, I think mygeneration was one of the last
to grow up without uhsmartphones and you know social
media.
So this is still really new.
Like the data that we'relearning and researching is is
coming out, and so you know,parents have had to navigate
this.
Um and it's been it's it's hard,it's very hard, and it's it's
(19:57):
moving quicker, I think, than wecan keep up with, right?
As far as um bestrecommendations.
So for me, as I, you know, mykids came into this world and I
started um I actually it startedwith my gift registry, if you
could think of that from my babyshower.
I remember seeing some of themost like, oh, baby toys and
(20:21):
this and that, and things thatwere lighting up and making
sounds, and you know, all ofthese kind of crazy toys.
And I, you know, I think, youknow, I I leaned into a little
of like the Montessori style,you know, wooden blocks and um
less stimulation, right?
Because and that's what I swhere I started with them,
because I I wanted to allow themthe opportunity to build and
(20:48):
create with a basic set ofblocks.
You can do that, you know.
But if you have all thisstimulation and noise and toys
and lights and you know, some ofthat's great.
Not that my kids didn't have anyof those things, but I really
have tried to lean into more ofthose less stimulating, kind of
(21:09):
less, you know, loud and songkind of toys, lights and all of
that, because I didn't want tooverstimulate them.
I wanted them to be able from Ithink a young age, just learn to
be able to sit in silence andbuild or create.
(21:29):
And so, you know, now thatthey're three and
five-year-olds, um, you know, Istill try to hold true to that.
Mind you, they of course theyhave some sound things and light
things, but I I do still try tohave that mindfulness when
engaging in with toys with them.
There's a book that I had readcalled Raising Mentally Strong
(21:49):
Kids, and in that book, Dr.
Eamon really stresses the ideaof starting to teach your your
your children about their brainand healthy brain development.
So we can share all these thingswith our teenagers, but really
it should start when they'rethree years old, right?
When they're five years old.
And so we we play this game, andagain, I got this idea from um
(22:12):
the author, you know, we're allopposed to my children, you
know, we we just had Halloween,and so they had Halloween candy.
Is this good for your brain oris this bad for your brain?
You know, and they're like, oh,that's bad for our brain.
Can you still have it and enjoyit a little bit here and there?
Of course.
But they're starting to makethat association.
You know, we have eggs in themorning.
(22:34):
Is that good for your brain oris that bad for your brain?
Oh, that's good, you know, forour brain.
And so they're starting to learnthat there are, you know,
there's a reason we don't eatcandy all day long, right?
Because certain things are gonnahelp our brain and certain
things won't.
And we do that with technologytoo.
My kids know, you know, is TBgood for your brain or bad for
your brain?
Or, you know, they don't have aniPad.
(22:55):
I have an iPad, but I have oneor two games, like if we we
recently went on vacation, so onthe airplane, they get to play.
And so it's that idea of is thisgood for your brain or bad for
your brain?
And I remember one time, I'llshare this quick story.
My son, uh, I had allowed him touse uh, he's five now, so he
gets it sparingly, maybe once ortwice a month for 10 minutes or
(23:18):
so where he can play a littlegame.
And the one time I had left himon the couch and he's playing
this game.
I got busy in the kitchen.
Next thing I know, I look overand he's sitting right there and
he's like, Mom, here you go.
This is bad for my brain.
And so just the fact that he wasstarting to able to absorb that
and learn that for himself, youknow, is just so telling.
(23:39):
And so if we can start ourchildren off young, just helping
to educate them, just to havethat awareness, I think it's
gonna pay off, right?
When they're older.
SPEAKER_02 (23:49):
That's a perfect example.
You know, I always tell parents,you're parenting a phone years
before they get a phone.
And this is a perfect examplebecause you're tea, you're
having these littleconversations with him about
candy and his diet, and that'stranslating into the digital
world so that when he does earna phone eventually, and you're
walking him through thatprocess, all these years he's
(24:12):
he's thought about is this goodfor my brain or bad for my
brain?
Because you've implemented thatin your home and he's gonna
think about that on the thingsthat he's looking at on social
media and scrolling through.
SPEAKER_03 (24:21):
Again, I think it's it's it's absolutely influenced
by the work that I do.
But then, you know, just being amom and trying to be mindful of
that, and it's hard, you know.
Sometimes screens, you know, areeasier.
Like if if if I put on a moviefor them, like I can get things
done and it's amazing.
But, you know, at what cost?
(24:41):
One of the things that I'll I'lltell parents a lot too, who tend
to get really overwhelmed and Ihave so much to do and you know,
clean the house and this andthat, and I and I'll always tell
them, I'll say, you know what,parenting is a lot easier
outside.
And I what I mean by that,especially with littles, like if
I leave them in my home to playwith their toys, like I mean, it
looks like a tornado wentthrough.
But if I get them up and getthem ready and we get out the
(25:02):
door, um, we go to the park orwe go on, you know, nature
trails, not only does my houseget to stay clean, but they just
get to experience the world andnature and and play with rocks
and sticks and running.
And it is just it is just somuch more easy.
And then they burn energy,right?
And they come home and they'renot as running around the house
(25:23):
and things like that.
And so I really encourage, youknow, parents just get them
outside, just just take thattime because it pays off in the
long run.
And I think it can just bereally helpful, not just for
their development, but for yourfor the parent as well, um, and
their own mental health and andgetting outside and stepping
away from from the home.
SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
I think you give have given us some such
practical advice for especiallyuh parents of young kids, right?
Because the toy thing that youwere talking about, like I I
wouldn't even have thought ofthat, quite honestly.
And and as you were talkingabout them building blocks
versus just pushing a button andhearing a sound, my mind just
(26:04):
went to what you just said aboutyou're baking your meal, right?
You're teaching yourtwo-year-old to work to build
the tower or make something outof blocks.
Like it's effort before they getthe reward or the dopamine hit.
And that's just such a greatconcept to teach littles.
(26:25):
That's that's easy, honestly.
And and really, if you like youthink about it, I like how you
compare, you know, there arebenefits, yes, to the mental
health of a child gettingoutside, but it's also a benefit
to keeping your house clean andnot being, I mean, it's easier
to parent outside.
I love how you said that.
But I would say also, like, likeas you're thinking of a of a
young parent trying to navigateall this, and you we everybody's
(26:48):
busy, right?
Them spending hours building ablock, it's gonna keep them
preoccupied too.
If and and it's gonna cre gettheir little mind going more
than just a two-hour movie,right?
And not to say you can't plopthem down for movie night, of
course, but what we're saying ishave a balanced approach and
make sure that's not your go-toall the time as to set them in
(27:10):
front of a screen.
SPEAKER_03 (27:11):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And that's not to say, like Isaid, we have Friday movie
nights at my house, and the kidsvery much look forward to that.
And so we, you know, we have ourour time in front of the screen.
And and truthfully, too, I knowI have read uh if you're you're
little, so the AmericanPediatric Society says no
(27:31):
screens under 18 months, whichquite frankly is not old enough.
Um, but again, you know, I havea five-year-old, and so this
idea of how do I start tointroduce him, because he'll
he'll be in kinder next year,you know, and going into a true
elementary school where, youknow, it's the exposure is gonna
(27:55):
be there and the technology of,you know, entering school is
gonna be there.
So I don't want to becometotally naive, but it's the idea
if if you are gonna allow yourchildren um screen time, it's
best when you're doing it withthem and you're at this age,
right?
You want to sit alongside them,and if he is playing a little
game, you can sit there and talkabout that and still have that
(28:15):
relational component to it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:17):
I love that.
You talked a lot about nature,and you know, I I kept thinking,
you know, getting out in naturejust as adults too, and and and
making sure your kids areoutside.
It reminded me of JonathanHeit's book, you know, the bring
back the childhood, bring givekids a childhood, delay the
(28:37):
screens.
Are you I I'm I think that'sexactly what you're saying here,
as far as how important gettingoutside and enjoying nature is
for our kids.
SPEAKER_03 (28:46):
Yes, I've read his book, and um, you know, I I I
think he has a lot of greatideas, um, and I'm excited how
you know viral that his bookwent, that and how popular it
became.
Um I actually, and what startedmy own journey into looking in
technology and and how it'saffecting us, I um some years
(29:09):
ago, I read this book called TheLast Child in the Woods uh by
Richard, Richard Loaf, I thinkis how you pronounce his name.
And he coined the term naturedeficit disorder.
And this book was published in2005.
And so if you think about wherewe were as a society in 2005, we
didn't have the social media andthe smartphones that we do now.
(29:33):
But for me, the fact that healready started seeing our kids
are being pulled out of natureand sat at home in front of TVs
and started associating thatwith you know, we're we're
disconnecting ourselves from,we're disconnecting our youth
from nature.
Um, and again, that idea to becreative, to explore, there's a
(29:57):
level of risk in nature, kidsclimbing.
Trees, all of that sort ofthings that are so important in
growth and development.
I think within his book too, atsome point he referenced just
the for our immunity and thingslike that as well.
There is so much benefit in justbeing able to be in our
(30:21):
environment.
And so I know that's hard.
Majority of households live incities, but you know, it could
be as simple as just going to apark, you know, finding a little
bit of a piece of a green space.
Um, I know we're lucky here tohave some really great nature
centers in our city, but Ihighly encourage to, you know,
especially if you want to detoxyour home a little bit of some
(30:43):
of that, you know, social mediaand screen time is to just get
out and explore.
Again, going back to theAmerican Pediatric Association,
say I think kids are spending onaverage it's less like 10
minutes or less outside playinga day when then they're spending
upwards, you know, five, six,seven hours on their screens.
Like we are, we are backwards,right?
(31:03):
Um, and so how do we encouragemore outdoor play, outdoor
exploration?
There's so much growth thathappens there.
Um, and I'd hate to see our kidslose out on that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:16):
Okay, that term you used, I hadn't heard it before.
So it was nature deficitdisorder.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_03 (31:24):
Yeah, it's not a true medical term, and I should
have said that.
So it's not an actual ummedical, it's just it's a term
he coined and hopes, you know,that and it has caught on some,
yes, but nature deficitdisorder.
SPEAKER_02 (31:37):
I think that's actually brilliant.
And you said he he said it in2005.
So just for context, she'sright.
Uh, Facebook was invented in2004, Instagram was invented in
2010.
So Instagram is a big one forour kids.
Uh, he was ahead of his time.
He had foresight into sayingwe're gonna have a problem here
(31:58):
because we're gonna go inwardand be inside on screens, and
we're gonna have this naturedeficit disorder.
And, you know, now you haveJonathan Hyatt coming along too,
and the research is coming outnow, and he's packaging it up
and it's reaching families.
And so we just need to beintentional.
And you guys know at Next Talk,we're not anti-tech.
Like my kids have phones, we wehave phones, but but we need to
(32:21):
be the boss of our screens, notthe screens be the boss of us.
Like that is the key.
And Christina, I love how youhave kind of simplified how to
talk to our kids about dopamine,but also like just simple things
we can do, make adjustments athome with our littles to help as
(32:42):
we get toys for them or how wetalk to them about what's good
for their for their brain andnot good for their brain.
You've you've just been a wealthof information.
Is there anything else?
We have a lot of parents thatlisten to Next Talk with a lot
of different ages.
And I know you have littles, butyou also counsel teenagers.
Is there anything that you wouldlike to say to our parents?
SPEAKER_03 (33:03):
You know, I get, you know, kind of going back to what
I said that, you know, givingyourself grace this is not easy.
Um, you are there trying tosupport and provide for your
families, like it's it's hard,you know.
I would say, you know, also justdon't be afraid to ask for help
if you need it.
I think sometimes how do Iactually implement this?
And and even listening to thepodcast or reading the books can
(33:26):
be incredibly helpful, butsometimes it, you know, you need
a little more support than that.
Um, and so I'll oftentimes seefamilies that come in and we do
a lot of parent coaching justaround okay, how do we start
making these steps?
What does that look like?
Let's have these conversationstogether.
Yeah, we just again, Mandy, I'mjust so grateful for what you're
(33:46):
doing because I think when weknow better, we can do better.
And so spreading that educationand awareness around what our
kids are up against is just soimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
Well, thank you for all the information you
provided.
It was invaluable.
And um, I hope you won't be astranger to the Next Talk
podcast.
So let us know if you see anydeveloping trends that you think
we need to talk about.
Just shoot me an email and we'lltalk about it.
SPEAKER_03 (34:13):
Absolutely.
Look forward to chatting withyou again soon.
SPEAKER_02 (34:18):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
Next Talk is a 501c3 nonprofit keeping kids safe
online.
To support our work, make adonation at next talk.org.
Next talk resources are notintended to replace the advice
of a trained healthcare or legalprofessional, or to diagnose,
treat, or otherwise renderexpert advice regarding any type
of medical, psychological,legal, financial, or other
problem.
You are advised to consult aqualified expert for your
(34:40):
personal treatment plan.
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