September 30, 2025 • 45 mins
Have you ever looked up from your phone to realize you've missed an important moment? That's exactly what happened to Joey Odom when he missed his five-year-old son's first-ever soccer goal because he was staring at his screen. That painful moment became the catalyst for a life-changing mission.
KEEPING KIDS SAFE ONLINE
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Next Talk podcast.
We are a nonprofit passionateabout keeping kids safe online.
We're learning together how tonavigate tech, culture and faith
with our kids.
We have a special guest on theNext Talk podcast today.
Joey Odom is joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Mandy Majors.
It's so good to see by the way,I'm sure you've heard this
Mandy Majors just flows.
My wife, kristen.
She had this wonderful maidenname Lombardo how beautiful is
that name and then she had totake on Odom.
You married into a great name,mandy Majors.
What a solid name.
Thank you for having me on.
It's so good to see you.
I'm such a massive fan of NextTalk and really, really excited
(00:42):
to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Well, tell our guests who you are.
A little bit of backgroundabout you and your family and
your ministry.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sure, yeah, I am my wife Kristen and I.
We've been married for 21 years.
We met in college at OralRoberts University in Tulsa,
oklahoma.
We're a little bit Mandy, alittle bit of an odd couple.
I'm 6'5" and my wife claimsfive feet tall.
She's probably 4'11 and threequarters, so we got a foot and a
(01:08):
half between us.
As a result, we had massivechildren at birth.
So my poor wife, after my sonHarrison, who's now 17,.
After he was born he was ninepounds.
So 18 hours of labor, emergencyC-section, and I told my wife
after that nine pound monstercame out of her tiny little body
.
I said you have to find asmaller father for the next
(01:30):
child.
But luckily she didn't, so shekept me.
That was wonderful.
Then we had Gianna.
Two years later she's 15 yearsold.
We live in Knoxville, tennessee,and I'm co-founder of an
organization called Reclaim Well.
Reclaim Well is an organizationdedicated to helping people
reclaim what matters most andthat specifically comes to
helping us curb this distractionof our technology, the
(01:53):
technology that we love and thatwe benefit from but can get in
the way of our most importantthings.
So we've been on mission withReclaim Well for the last five
years and just have this vision,this mission, and for people
who are listening, who maybe thedefenses go up when we talk
about curbing technology usage,I promise you we see so much
(02:13):
hope in this and if you'relistening, you've been
frustrated with it, or if youhave some victory in it.
No matter where you are in thecontinuum, we all feel it to
some degree and, mandy, justlike you, I just believe this is
such an amazing opportunity,such a hopeful opportunity for
us to do something to recaptureand reclaim life on the other
side of our phones.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Wow, that's a great mission statement.
Tell me what started you onthis work.
Like there's a story that youshare sometimes that I can
relate to.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Well, it was.
It was the fall of 2013.
And my son, harrison, who Imentioned, harrison who is 17
now.
He was five years old at thetime and, for anybody, he's
playing his first youth soccerseason.
So anybody who's been to ayouth soccer game, if you watch
these little five-year-olds, youknow that the kids who score
the goals are these reallyaggressive kids, the kids who
(03:04):
appear to be involved, maybe ina halfway house or in a work
release program.
Very aggressive children.
And Harrison was not one ofthose aggressive children.
So he's this sweet kid at fiveyears old and, as a result no
surprise everybody on the teamhad scored a goal this season,
except for Harrison.
So my wife and I and ourdaughter Gianna, we went on the
(03:25):
sidelines on another Saturdayafternoon to take in another
five-year-old soccer game.
But then, about midway throughthe first half, in the middle of
really the ordinary, somethingextraordinary emerged and
Harrison found himself standingin front of the soccer ball with
the goal in his sights and herears back his leg and he kicked
.
And what happened next?
(03:45):
Mandy, it's a little dramatic,but it has shaped me as a father
, as that ball rolled over thegrass and you kind of can
picture it like a slow motionmovie.
You cue the james hornerdramatic music in the background
as the ball glides over thegrass into the back of the net
for harrison's very first soccergoal.
And so that you so these sweetparents, they knew exactly what
(04:06):
had just happened.
So they're going wild.
His coach runs out on the fieldand he lifts up Harrison.
But there was this moment,mandy, right in between the ball
hitting the back of the net andHarrison's coach picking him up
.
When Harrison did something thefive-year-old boys do Harrison
turned to the sidelines to lockeyes with dad, to see the pride
on my face, to see the smile onmy face, to see the smile on my
(04:26):
face and to share this reallytruly magical moment together.
And it and it was magical withone slight exception, and that's
that I missed the entire moment.
Every bit of what I justdescribed I miss.
You see, when Harrison turnedto the sidelines to lock eyes
with me, all he saw was the topof my head, cause I was looking
down at my phone.
So I didn't see the goal, Ididn't see his coach pick him up
, I didn't see his beautifulface scanning the crowd to lock
(04:49):
eyes with mine and I didn't seethe light in his face fade to
disappointment when he realizedthat I had missed his big moment
.
So I missed that moment, and Ididn't really have the words for
it at the time, but I have thewords for it now.
The words I had at that momentwas ugh, just U-G-H ugh, that I
had missed this moment.
The words I have now, though,is that this relationship that I
(05:10):
had with my phone was gettingin the way of one of the most
important relationships in myentire life, so that was a
seminal moment.
I'd like to say, mandy, thateverything got better after I
had that realization, but itdidn't.
It didn't really have thetoolkit.
So I probably missed othermoments, and I probably phone
stubbed my wife and my kids andother phone conversations, but I
look back on that moment to saysomething's wrong.
(05:31):
So I got a call a couple ofyears later from a good friend
of mine, heath Wilson, and hesaid hey, I have an idea what,
what if?
And he had known of this storyand we were friends, and he said
what if we could help otherfamilies?
What if we could help otherpeople avoid moments like this?
What if we could help peoplereclaim the most important
things in life.
And that was the beginning ofReclaim, well, of just this
(05:54):
question, well, starting withfailure, and then a question of
what if?
What if the world could lookdifferent.
So we've been on a missionsince then to help other dads,
other moms, not miss soccergoals, to have great family
dinners, to have greatconversations, to have nice
walks around the block, toengage in deep work, eliminating
again, not throwing away oursmartphones, but helping to
(06:15):
eliminate those distractions inimportant moments.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
I love this story, joey, because I think we can all
relate to it, but I think thedifference is not all of us are
as humble enough to admit itlike you are, and I think it's
so great that a dad is willingto step up and say I missed this
moment and I got to take chargeof this.
Now I've got to be intentional.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Well, that's very nice of you to say.
I will say it's one of thosemoments you're grateful for of
forced humility.
That was nothing being great onmy own, of just being forced
into a moment where you justthink something's wrong here.
And fortunately I had my wife'sMandy.
I still have bruises on my ribsfrom my wife's elbow when I
missed the goal, so I still feelthat.
But it's this recognition again, having a great partner there
(07:03):
too, just knowing her, knowingwhat's important to me, and
saying, hey, you missed what'simportant to you.
And again, I think a lot ofpeople fall in this category of
just saying, yeah, I've messedup and we can get into a big
discussion on this and it'sprobably worth it to some degree
, maybe a little bit later.
But this is the greatest toolhere that's being used against
this feeling of shame you know,shame being a good indicator but
(07:26):
a bad motivator.
And very often when it comes tothis, when it comes to this
topic, we are so bogged down byshame, we're so bogged down by
the mistakes that we've made,that we grow resigned to believe
that that's just the way it is.
And I just and I think probablyanybody listening to this
podcast I know you agree withthis.
I just refuse to believe that.
I just don't resign myselfeasily to things like that.
(07:49):
When you say it's just the wayit is, that's a hard thing for
me to swallow and I think a lotof people there raises up in us
a little bit of a healthydefiance that says no, I think
we can do better.
Then that was the case for meand I think people I know
listening to this.
That's the case for me and Ithink people I know listen to
this.
That's the case for them.
For you I know that's the casefor you.
To all the people you speakwith, that's the case for them.
Just saying I want to do betterand help me, and so that's our
(08:10):
goal is how can we?
How can we help, just likeNextalk?
How can we help others and givethem the tools they need to
improve in this area?
That's so important.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I love how our ministries line up because, um,
you know, one of the corepractices of next talk is look
in the mirror, and it's thatlooking in the mirror and
realizing what are we doingwrong and not getting stuck in
the shame, like you said, butbeing humble enough to be like,
yeah, I didn't get that right.
I need to apologize to my kidand go back and repair the
relationship.
(08:38):
Here.
We call it like recovery andrepair.
Right, we got to go back andrepair because we're all going
to make mistakes.
We're all going to.
We're human.
I love what one of my teammembers said because she she
said, you know, he's like nexttalk for adults, we're next talk
for kids, he's next talk foradults.
And I love that because yousaid something that I want to go
back to.
(08:59):
You said this relationship thatwe have with our phones,
because this is going to impactand have a ripple effect for all
the other relationships in ourlife.
So let's dive into that.
What does that mean?
To have a relationship withyour phone?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Isn't that funny.
I just laugh anytime.
I hear I'm the one who said ittoo, but I bet when I said
relationship with phones, I betyou nobody bristled.
I bet you nobody thought thatway.
To say that's weird.
I bet you nobody did, becausethat's such a common piece of
how we refer to this.
Now we talk about myrelationship with my phone or,
collectively, our relationshipwith technology.
It's just, it's in ourvernacular now and we started
(09:38):
thinking about this a couple ofyears ago and we thought hold on
one second.
I think that might be weirdthat we're talking about
relationships with phones.
So let's think about otherobjects in our lives that we as
adults let's focus on adults fora second that we as adults have
my car eh, not really.
It kind of gets me from A to B.
I think about my lawnmower.
(09:59):
I see my lawnmower once a weekfor about nine months out of the
year, but it's not as if when aconversation gets boring, I go
sneak out for a quick mow, right, but we do this, we do this
with our phones.
Things get boring.
We kind of take a look at themand, as we've thought about this
, while it's very unique foradults to have relationships
(10:20):
with objects.
That's very odd.
I think this is maybe you findsome exceptions I think this is
the singular object.
We really have a relationship,non-living object.
But infants and toddlers, theyhave relationships with objects,
as you think about it.
They have relationships withtheir blankies, they have
relationships with their binkies, they have relationships with
their teddy bears and these allhave a word and that word.
(10:41):
These are comfort objects.
Another word, form, istransitional objects and they
serve a very vital purpose inthe development of a child.
So what it does?
A child clings to atransitional object.
They cling to a comfort objectto give them a sense of security
, to give them a sense ofcomfort in the absence of
relationships.
In other words, parent walksout of the room, child cries,
(11:04):
holds onto the teddy bear and itmakes them feel better.
But as we know, this is just aphase.
Before long a child realizes Ican do this on my own.
So they discard this comfortobject, they discard this
transitional object.
So what's interesting aboutphones is that phones have
reverted we as adults.
They've reverted us back to achildlike state of relationship
(11:25):
with an object.
We cling to this object.
But the difference is, wherechildren cling to an object, in
the absence of relationships.
We cling to this object in thepresence of relationships.
We'll be at the dinner tablewith people that we love, and we
are clinging to our phone.
We're looking down on our phoneinstead of the eyes of the
people that we love.
Think about Mandy for a second.
Think about what happens.
(11:46):
Think about infertility issuesfor just a moment.
Think about how hard it is for,how unlikely it is for any
human to become to be born.
I mean, that is that is, youknow, a one in a billion chance
for that individual to be born.
So we work so hard, some of usspend so much time, effort,
money, even to become pregnant,to have a child, and then, all
of a sudden, we're clinging toan object instead of looking in
(12:09):
their eyes.
At the dinner table, we'll be inthe middle of a conversation,
so it's absolute lunacy.
Would we do this?
And, by the way, let's go back.
No shame, this is all of us.
You're talking to the chief ofcenters here, you know, before
we start on this journey.
But we're clinging to thisobject and we're calling it a
relationship and, by the way, itis a relationship.
We have a relationship with anobject instead of thinking of
(12:33):
this as a utility device andthis relationship and none of
this matters, by the way.
None of it matters except forthe fact that it is getting in
the way of not just our otherrelationships but our own
intentions, the things we wantfor our lives.
If I go ask anybody who'slistening here, what do you want
?
They would go through personalgoals, relational goals,
(12:53):
spiritual goals.
Yet we would also acknowledgethat the number one distraction,
absolutely the number onedistraction is this silly little
thing that we have arelationship that sits in our
pockets.
It's a little crazy, but it istrue.
And I think when we begin toname it, when we begin to
recognize it as a relationship,when we recognize that it's
getting in the way of moreimportant relationships, only
(13:16):
then can we begin to dosomething about it that's truly
effective.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I mean it's becoming an idol.
It becomes an idol in our lifeand this is why I love the work
that you're doing, because wealways say at Next Talk, we are
the adult in our home, theculture is not going to change
unless we change it, becausewe're the leaders in our home
right.
But if we are not leading wellwith a healthy balance with our
(13:39):
phones, we can't get mad at our14 old that doesn't have a
healthy balance right, Becausewe have created that culture.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You just said something that we think about
this all the time.
We call this the 3M parent trap.
By the way, what we do asparents is we model a bad
relationship with our phones.
That's the first M.
We model this.
And when I say model a badrelationship, let's define bad
relationship.
I would say bad relationshipwould be your phone at the
(14:09):
dinner table.
I would say a bad relationshipwould be looking at our phone
when someone's trying to talk tous, when my 15-year-old
daughter is trying to talk to me, if I just take one glance at
the phone, that kills thatmoment.
We model that bad relationship.
One day our kids get a phone and, by the way, whether you've
waited until eight or you waiteduntil 10th or you gave it to
them in sixth grade, whateverthat is, I don't care the age
(14:32):
when we have modeled a badrelationship, our kids do
something very unsurprising isthey mimic what we have modeled.
That they have their phones atthe dinner table Shocker.
That they phone snub us in themiddle of a conversation.
We're trying to talk to themShocker.
But then we do something crazy.
(14:52):
Absolutely crazy is that wehave the audacity to get mad at
our kids for mimicking what wemodeled to them.
So, everybody listening here,let's let's begin to ask
ourselves a really hard question.
You said look in the mirror,let's ask ourselves a question
Am I modeling a relationshipthat I want my child to mimic
someday?
Studies will tell us that thenumber one predictor of how your
child will use a phone somedayis how you use your phone today.
(15:14):
So we have to begin to model arelationship with our phones
that we want our kids to mimic.
This may sound heavy handed,this may cut to the heart.
If you're feeling yourdefensiveness come up, it may be
because there's some truth init.
However, let's not forget thisis wonderful news.
This is incredible news because, what do we say?
The number one predictor of howyour child will use a phone
someday is how you use yourphone today.
(15:35):
So if you're modeling arelationship that you want your
kids to mimic, oh my, that'spowerful, because then the third
M instead of getting mad, westart making memories and we
start doing incredibly wonderfulthings, all as a result of us
looking in a mirror to yourpoint and beginning to model a
relationship that we want ourkids to mimic someday.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
And what a cool family journey.
I mean I feel like I've been ona decade long journey to be
like I got that wrong, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have had my phone
out, and they see me apologizefor that.
I have seen my own kids then bemore humble when they get stuff
wrong with their phone becauseI'm again modeling the apology
and it's.
It's a process Like we're alllearning.
(16:15):
We're all going to get thiswrong sometimes in your home is
so great around technologyversus no technology.
It's off limits, but I'm goingto use it forever.
And then there's this powerstruggle in the home.
You know, we always say teachyour kid to use a phone Like
you're going to teach them howto drive a car, like in a
(16:36):
step-by-step approach.
That's what we believe at NextTalk.
But I love what you're doingand so if we focus on this
relationship, that that we'rethe solution here, the parents
are the solution and we have tohave a relationship, a healthy
relationship with our phones.
Help us put this in perspectivefor us, because I feel like
this is going to be some deep,soul searching work here that
you're going to, that you'regoing to dive into here.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yes, I would say, if we view it through the lens of
relationship, and again, andlet's, and let's clarify, there
are a lot of when we think aboutthis, there are a lot of things
that can really go awry on yourphones from all the things you
can access, go into the depthsof pornography and all that kind
of stuff.
I'm going to narrow thisdiscussion, from my perspective,
(17:20):
within the impact that it hason relationships.
And so, if we view it throughthe lens of relationship, let's
think about okay, well, why isit a relationship?
Yes, we're clinging to it likechildren, but why?
Well, the definingcharacteristic in our
relationship with our phones andthis is where it's gonna start
getting very simple and maysound overly simplistic, but I
(17:40):
promise you this is the core ofit and when you begin to change
this element of it, everythingwill change and it begins.
The defining characteristic inour relationship with our phones
, very simply, is our constantproximity to our phones, period.
They are always with us, andthis may sound obvious.
Let me explain why this is sopowerful.
91% of us have our phoneswithin arm's reach 24 hours a
(18:02):
day.
That includes when we'resleeping.
We use it as our alarm clocks.
That's 91%.
That is a massive number andthat's the defining
characteristic in ourrelationship with our phones.
By the way, I'm not demonizingthis.
Is just a matter of fact thatwe have our phones with us all
the time.
So there's the proximity.
As a result of the proximity,we are constantly interacting
(18:22):
with our phones.
So the data will tell us that89% of smartphone usage is
self-initiated.
So it's us, it's not the apps,that are grabbing us, it's not
the notifications that aregrabbing us.
It's us because our phones arewith us all the time, picking up
our phones, and we know whathappens when that happens.
I'll just out myself here.
The US Open tennis turn ishappening right now.
(18:43):
We are a massive tennis familyin our family, so I'll pick up
my phone and I'll go to ESPN andI'll just want to check one
score.
And then that becomes I checkmy email, which I, then I check
the weather and then I check thescore again.
Then I go to the baseballscores and I look who Oklahoma's
playing in football thisweekend, and then you go down
this rabbit trail of interactionthat only began because it was
(19:06):
with me.
If I didn't have my phone withme sounds obvious.
If I didn't have my phone withme, I would have not looked at
ESPN in that moment.
So that proximity resulted ininteraction, and what that leads
to is a dependence on our phone.
We call that the PID loop.
Proximity led to interaction,which leads to dependence, and
because we feel dependent on ourphones, oh, I have to have it
(19:28):
with me all the time.
What does that do?
That leads us back to proximity, which leads us to interaction,
which leads to dependence,which leads us back to proximity
, and it goes in a cycle.
By the way, this is how we formhuman relationships.
We're around somebody, weinteract with them more, we
become dependent on them, not ina bad way, we just become.
We just, you know, lead to somedependencies on them, whether
it's practical things like helpor emotional support, whatever
(19:49):
that is and then we're aroundthem more.
So it all.
This is how we've formed thisrelationship.
The point here is on the PIDloop is it all begins with
proximity is when you break theproximity, you begin to use your
phone.
Very obviously, you use it alittle bit less.
When you use a little bit less,you become a little bit less
dependent on it.
When you're a little bit lessdependent on your phone, you
(20:10):
realize maybe I don't need it inproximity with me all the time,
but it all begins with thatproximity.
So what we tell people veryprescriptively is spend time
physically distant from yourphone every day.
Now I understand our phones aredo wonderful things for us.
If you're a mom, I bet you yourto-do list happens on your phone
.
I bet you're running the homethrough your phone.
(20:31):
I bet you, if you're, if you'reat the office, you use your
phone a lot for that.
So I'm not necessarily talkingabout those moments.
What I'm talking about arethese moments.
Maybe when everybody you loveis at home with you.
It's a pretty good moment foryou to spend a little bit of
time away from your phone andthen, instead of interacting
with your phone, you'reinteracting with the people
around you, and then you realizethat life may be a little bit
better on the other side of yourphone.
(20:52):
What we tell people is, ifyou're in the 91% club which I
bet you are, because that's thevast majority just begin today
by spending five minutes apartfrom your phone.
Literally and I know thatsounds simplistic Just start
five minutes and then tomorrow10 minutes and start building on
that.
Build up to what if you spenttwo hours a day physically
distant from your phone.
Two hours, and it doesn't haveto be consecutive.
(21:15):
What if you did some in themorning?
Let's say you have morningdevotion two hours, and it
doesn't have to be consecutive.
What if you did some in themorning?
Let's say you have morningdevotion and then let's say you
go on an evening walk with yourspouse, or maybe for a family
dinner, or maybe if you'retucking your kids in, maybe
don't bring your phone in theirbedroom with you.
And what if you aggregated twohours a day?
And here's why two hours, mandy,is that when you spend two
hours a day physically distantfrom your phone over the course
(21:37):
of a year, you have justreclaimed one month out of your
year.
So we live in a culture wherewe're short on time, where we
don't have enough time, and youjust lived a 13-month year.
It sounds so simple and sobasic which, by the way,
anything valuable is simple.
You want to go, get more fit,eat a little bit less, move a
little bit more.
It's all simple.
That does not mean theexecution is easy.
(22:04):
But that is the answer from ourperspective is break that
proximity which lessens theinteraction, which reduces the
dependence, which will result inless proximity, interaction and
dependence.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
So you said, two hours a day away from our phone
reclaims one month of our time.
And I'm going to challenge youthose those two hours like maybe
it's bedtime with your kids,dinnertime, you know those core,
key times that you can reallyjust put your phone in another
room and focus on yourrelationships, your marriage, I
(22:29):
mean we're so bad.
I mean I remember one nightMatt crawled in bed with me and
I was on my phone, you know,doing next talk work, and he
said to me Mandy, I get youalone for like 45 minutes a day.
Can you put the phone down,right?
And it just pierced me because Iwas like we are so bad at this,
like it has robbed us.
(22:49):
And as you were talking to Joey, you know, I thought to myself
we're talking here about how itcan impact our relationship with
our marriage and our kids.
But as you were talking, Ithought the only person that
ever goes with me everywhere isJesus.
Right, like I'm a Christian andso my faith?
(23:11):
I don't.
My husband doesn't go with methroughout my day, but my phone
does, doesn't go with methroughout my day, but my phone
does.
And I just had this thought ofhow is this affecting our
relationship, our faith with God?
Because normally when I'm alone, I'm praying, I'm talking to
(23:31):
Jesus, I'm re-quoting scripture,but what have I done?
I've filled that with podcastlistening and all kinds of stuff
with my phone.
So how is this impacting ourfaith on our spiritual journeys?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
This is one of these things and, by the way, this is
what's so great about this is,wherever you fall on the
continuum of faith, this hits,this applies to you, no matter
where you are, and this is whyby the way, this is also another
reason why I think you shouldread the Bible.
Well, I think you should go tochurch, because what I'm about
to tell you I believe this comesfrom Jesus's mouth 2000 years
(24:07):
ago, and it's never been moreapplicable than today.
And that is the idea when youread through the Bible.
The Bible is obsessed.
God is obsessed with fruit.
He loves it.
He talks about fruit all thetime.
Garden of Eden talks aboutfruit, talk about fruitfulness.
You talk about unfruitfulness.
You talk about bearing fruit.
There are over five on averageper chapter, over 300 references
(24:29):
to fruit and fruitfulness andunfruitfulness, all throughout
the Bible.
So that's five per book of theBible and it's sitting under our
noses.
But let's look at how prevalentof a theme this is in Scripture
is fruit, and when we say fruit,we're talking about increase.
We're talking about doing wellwith the things that we have.
Bearing fruit is taking a seedand making it bigger.
(24:50):
So the Bible talks about thisall the time and Jesus talks
about in the parable of thesower.
He talks about a seed, talksabout seed falling among
different, different types ofsoil and he talks about a soil
where he talks about the thornsin the soil.
And here's what the thorns dothe thorns will choke out the
seed and they make it unfruitful.
So so a seed has potential.
(25:11):
Let's just think about, let'sthink about, let's think about a
time with you and Matt at night.
You're 45 minutes.
That's a seed that haspotential for fruit.
That is a seed that has amoment.
Let's think about my, let'sthink about my 20 minutes of
quiet time this morning when Iread the Bible and prayed.
That is a seed that haspotential for fruit.
Let's think about a familydinner that's a seed that has
(25:32):
potential for fruit.
And we are, we live, we live inthis vast, this unbelievable
amount of opportunity, withseeds all around us.
But there's this thing calledthe thorns and Jesus says a seed
fell among the thorns and thethorns choke out the seed,
making it unfruitful.
And if you think about thegrowth pattern, this is so
fascinating.
(25:52):
We're getting kind of deep inyou know, breakdown of the
parable here, but when you thinkabout how thorns grow.
What thorns will do is theywill wrap around, they will coil
around a plant, and so youthink about it from the
beginning.
They are positioning themselves, they are growing with a clear
intention to choke out thatplant, to choke out the
potential of fruit being bearingfrom that plant.
(26:14):
So Jesus says and this is wherethis is where it starts getting
into our phones and therepresentation of our phones
Jesus says that the thornsrepresent three things.
They represent the worries oflife, the thorns represent the
pleasures of life, and thethorns represent the
deceitfulness of wealth Worriesof life, pleasures of life,
(26:35):
deceitfulness of wealth.
So these are the thorns thathave the potential to choke out
the good things in our life andmaking them unfruitful.
I don't believe there is agreater representation for our
phones than these three things.
So let's break each one down.
Let's think about the worriesof life, the worries of life.
Let's just think what lives onour phone.
We have our Twitter feeds, wehave our news feeds, we have our
(26:57):
emails, all of these things.
When you go on your news feed,you can't go on the news and not
feel some level of worry.
And so what does that do?
That begins to choke out, chokeout our minds.
Then you have the pleasures oflife, all the ways that we can
escape on our phone.
Let's think about the Netflix,the gaming, the gambling,
pornography, whatever it is.
(27:17):
These are those pleasures oflife that we're trying to escape
the present moment, and we gofind that solace on our phones.
And then the deceitfulness ofwealth.
This one I love, and this iswhere Jesus this is why you
should read your Bible again.
That's such a brilliant way toput it.
It's not the wealth, it's thedeceitfulness of wealth.
Wealth lies to us.
It tells us stories.
So you go on your Instagramfeed, let's say you and your
(27:39):
family are on a vacation inTampa and you're enjoying your
time, you're having a great timeand connection.
And then you go on yourInstagram feed and you see a
friend who's on vacation inTahiti and all of a sudden, that
Tampa vacation isn't quite asfun and you start thinking, if I
had that Tahiti money, if I hadthat kind of money, then I'd
really be happy.
So the deceitfulness of wealthis telling you that what you
have is not enough.
(28:00):
And this all lives within ourphones.
And even to take it one stepfurther, manny, think about even
the rhythm of our days.
Think about the morning, theworries of life.
If we use our phone as an alarmclock, you roll over and you
turn off your alarm and youstart looking at your phone even
before you've gotten in theword or said good morning Jesus,
(28:22):
looking at your phone evenbefore you've gotten in the word
or said or said good morningJesus.
If you look at your phone, allof a sudden those worries of
life begin to choke out the seedbefore your days even started
and make it unfruitful thepleasures of life.
Those things usually happen atthe end of the day.
You've had a long day at workand then you try to escape and
so it chokes out that eveningtime that's so precious.
Again, we, we, we talked beforewe went on air about our kids
and you have one child, and youknow, senior in high school, and
you have another graduated fromcollege.
I have two high schoolers and Ithink that's those are the
golden hours right there.
(28:42):
But it can choke out that seed.
And then the middle of the day,when we're, when it's money
making time in the middle of theday, and that deceitfulness,
wealth, can choke it out.
So the implications for all thegood things, but in our.
The specific reference in theparable of the sower is our walk
with Jesus, is the potential wehave to bear fruit, the
(29:03):
spiritual implications even forpastors who may be listening.
Think about putting so muchtime into, into a sermon series
and then giving a message on aSunday.
Then all of a sudden, yourpeople receive that word and
then all of a sudden that justone glance at their phone
totally chokes out the word thatGod has given you.
Again, this is we're talkingthorns and choking and death and
unfruitfulness and all thatkind of stuff.
(29:23):
Here's the great news, mandy,is when we recognize that these
are thorns whose sole intentionis to choke us out and we
believe.
Another interesting thing wewere in the yard yesterday.
My wife and I were working andthere was, there was a vine that
grew up with the other, with,you know, in our, in our front
garden, and it almost lookedindecipherable to the healthy
(29:45):
plant Right, and this is how ourphones look is it almost looks
indecipherable that it's such aninextricable part of our lives.
But hold on one second.
These are thorns and if we canprune them back and we have to
do a constant pruning and we cankeep tending to our garden and
holding them away, then all of asudden we are going to be good
soil that bears fruit.
So the spiritual implicationsare massive, and if we can
(30:09):
recognize these as threats, theyare threats.
They want to kill us if we letthem go untamed.
But we can do something aboutit.
We begin to prune these back sothat we can then bear good food
in our lives.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I love that visual.
I love that visual because youknow, when you say bear fruit,
I'm constantly thinking aboutthe relationship with my kids.
You know we're parenting, wefocus on parenting.
So much at.
Next Talk, and I'm thinkingabout the relationship with my
kids.
You know we're parenting, wefocus on parenting so much at
Next Talk, and I'm thinkingabout the fruitfulness of each
conversation that I've been ableto have with them over the
years.
You know late at night, at 2 am, and you know just when they're
(30:42):
ready to talk and how.
If I could perceive that as butI'm on my phone bed rotting and
I don't want to get up out ofmy bed to check on my kid,
that's a thorn that could chokeout this moment with my kids.
(31:03):
That could be a memory and amajor discipling moment with my
kid too.
Right, If I start to make thatswitch in my mind, I think it
helps make better choices withmy phone, which is what you're
trying to do.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And, by the way, this, thiswill be a lot like anything else
in your life.
It this is going to be veryhard at first.
I really do believe that, andwe're and you're also going to
begin to condition yourself andit's become to feel more natural
.
And then, when you start doingpractical things, like like
curating your environment, sothat, um, so you don't have to
(31:37):
rely so much on willpower JamesClear talks about this in atomic
habits.
He said that environment isalways stronger than willpower.
So if you're relying if youjust imagine you you're a smoker
and you're trying to stopsmoking you're probably not
going to keep a pack ofcigarettes in your pocket.
You're probably going toeliminate those, the possibility
of those being being with you.
So what are those moments inyour life when you can think
(31:57):
okay, it is time to put the kidsdown to bed.
What a great moment for me toput my phone down.
What if let's think about inyour, in your marriage?
How cool is this is if you goon a on a date night, let's say
you have people will say this Iwant a date night.
What if the babysitter callsOkay, well, let's think about
environment, let's think aboutlet's frame it with these thorns
want to choke out thispotentially fruitful moment with
(32:20):
my spouse.
So what can I do here?
I love and this is so verypractical when you sit down at
the dinner table on a date nightwith your spouse, do a phone
swap so you are accessible, butyou're probably not going to
doom scroll your spouse's phone.
So let's begin to think of italways with the beginning.
This is a, this is apotentially beautiful moment.
(32:40):
There are thorns here thatcould choke it out.
So what are the practicalthings that I'm going to do, the
environmental shifts that I canmake that will begin to ensure
that thorns will not choke outthis moment?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I love that.
That's a very practical example.
The other thing, too is I wouldjust say to my people call me,
I'll have my ringer on, but it'sin my purse, you know, don't
text me, I'm not checking texts.
You know, I, when I startedgetting serious about trying to
do this, that was one of thethings that I would even tell my
team is, if there's anemergency, call me, but I'm not
(33:14):
checking my text.
I'm going to put my watch onairplane mode.
You know that's that's.
Take the watch off completely,whatever you have to do.
But I like what you said, theexample of the cigarettes we
have to be serious about.
If we, if we truly cannot getaway from our phone, we, we have
to make space, we have tocreate the space.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Mandy, I have a.
I have a suspicion.
I bet you that you have notgotten that many emergency calls
after you've done that you.
You did that.
You may, you felt good toyourself, but I bet you haven't
had this, uh, this plethora ofemergency calls in that moment.
It's a very good practice, butwhat we find over time and I'd
be curious your experience here,I bet what you found over time
is that, oh, not a lot ofemergency calls came in.
(33:55):
I was actually fine without it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
A hundred percent could wait.
A hundred percent could wait,and that's the other thing, even
if there was a DM that wascoming in with panicked like I
need to have parameters aboutthat, like I can't just start
responding to DMS at 2 AM.
That's not healthy for me,right?
So I need to be sleeping.
So so you, you have to createit's, it's boundaries to protect
(34:18):
your sanity.
You know, I want to dive intothis like relationship with
Jesus more, because, because Ikeep you know, as a parent, one
of the things we teach at nexttalk, you know, is if we're not
okay, if we're not stable, ifwe're not peaceful, if we're not
calm, we're not going to raisekids who are right.
(34:39):
And part of me helping with myworry, my anxiety, all of that
kind of stuff is, of course, youknow, therapy, medication, all
that kind of stuff.
Right, you know no wrong answer.
God can show up in all thesedifferent places, but if I am
not constantly connected toJesus, I see the ugly that comes
out of me.
I see the ugly, and so how muchis that robbing us of just not
(35:04):
having this peaceful time withJesus to like recenter our soul,
so that when we pick the kidsup and they bombard us, you know
, on the way home from school.
With all these things, we'recalm and we're ready for that,
versus bed rotting all day or onour phones all day, running
from one thing to another, beingconnected all day and not even
(35:25):
having a moment with God at all.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Well, the thing we know from scripture.
We know that God speaks inwhispers.
We know that when Elijah wentto the I always get my Elijahs
and Elishas mixed up, so don'tcomment with my wrong Elijah
versus Elisha but when Godcalled him out and he said he
wanted to be with the Lord, thenthe earthquake happened and
(35:49):
said that God was not in theearthquake.
Then the fire happened, but Godwas not in the fire.
But then a still small voice oror another translations that
says a gentle whisper, and thatgentle whisper that draws us in.
And we don't give ourselvesthis moment to hear the gentle
whisper.
And I will tell you, for thoseof you who experienced, those of
us who experienced, there's nogreater place David says, better
(36:12):
is one day in your courts thana thousand elsewhere that we,
when we have those moments andhere's what's cool about that
too we we start to get filled upthe fruit of the spirit, the
Holy spirit that is in us, thatJesus gave us, the fruit of the
spirit.
And so back to fruit.
And, by the way, this is notsomething we're creating.
The thing that overflows fromus is a list that a lot of us
know called the fruits of thespirit and I bet you that
(36:34):
everybody listening would wantthese things in their lives.
We want love, joy, peace,patience and kindness and
goodness and faithfulness andgentleness and self-control.
We want all of those things.
But that is only an overflowingof the Holy Spirit in us that
only comes from us quietingourselves down, slowing
ourselves down and listening forthe whisper.
(36:55):
It is a truly by the way youand I both probably experienced
this.
This is something that it's soeasy to get away from, but when
we experience it, there'snothing like it Absolutely.
And what's cool about that,mandy, is it is just like this
solution we're talking about.
It is available to us at alltimes of the day.
I mean, even someone right nowcould just press pause for a
(37:17):
second and just just that deepbreath I mean I haven't felt it
all just a little bit of theslowdown.
And it is available to us atall times.
And let's not forget thegreatest threat to that and this
is super practical, it's notethereal the greatest threat to
that are the thorns that live inour pocket.
These I call them more I'mworking on a book on it right
(37:39):
now called the digital thorns.
These digital thorns threatento drown out that whisper that's
available to us at all times.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Well, god is available to us at all time and
our phones are available to usat all times and we we have got,
we've got to get a handle onthat.
So great stuff today.
I do want to end with this, soa lot of parents may be like
well, that's it, no phones, notechnology.
We're done here.
We're just taking it all off.
And you have a snow whiteanalogy that I would love for
(38:08):
you to share with our audience,because I think I want to end on
a positive note that tech canbe used for good and bad, and it
is our responsibility to teachour kids technology and to have
a healthy balance with it.
So tell us about your SnowWhite analogy here.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Yeah, it's actually in Sleeping Beauty.
If everybody remembers thestory, I get my Sleeping Beauty
in Snow White.
It's confused.
In Sleeping Beauty, when theprincess was young, when the
princess was an infant, therewas a prophecy given over the
princess that one day thisprincess would prick her finger
(38:43):
on a spinning wheel and send herinto an eternal slumber.
And so what did her parents do?
Is they got rid of everyspinning wheel in the entire
kingdom.
All the spinning wheels wereburned.
Somehow.
They forgot about one in thebasement, so that one was there.
And when Sleeping Beauty, whenshe encountered this spinning
wheel, she had never seen aspinning wheel before.
(39:04):
She had no idea what it was,she had no idea what it did.
And so what did she do?
She pricked her finger on thespinning wheel and the prophecy
was fulfilled.
When we think about this wholeidea of our phones like that
that we just want to get rid ofthem, we know, yes, there are
thorns, there's an ability toprick our fingers on the
spinning wheel.
But what if her parents wouldhave said hey, we're going to
(39:26):
teach her to be the greatestspinning wheel stress in all of
the kingdom and teach her how touse this thing?
Well, I think they had anamazing opportunity to do that.
Now we would have not been therecipients of such a good Disney
movie if they would have donethat, but they had that
opportunity.
So what's cool for us is thatwe can begin to do this really,
(39:46):
really well.
I mean people, even many people, ask us all the time hey, when
should I give my kid a phone,when should I give my kid a
phone?
And I think we want to reducethat down to an age.
We want to reduce that down.
I think it's a combination offactors.
If you were to ask me I wouldwe talk about two, four, eight.
We say for for two years, priorto your child getting a phone.
We believe you need to model agood relationship for a minimum
(40:09):
of two years.
By the way, three is betterthan two, five is better than
three.
So the longer you can model agood relationship, the four.
I think you have an opportunity, especially if you're within a
church setting or something likethat.
The four band together with fourof your kids, friends, families
, and I say that order veryspecifically your kids, friends,
their families, not yourfriends and their kids.
(40:30):
So four of your kids, friends,families, so that you are in
alignment together, which noneof us want our kids to be
socially isolated.
So what that does is thatreduces the potential of social
isolation.
And, by the way, start as youngas you can.
It's great to say, hey, we'regoing to give our kids a phone
at this age.
And then the eight we're justgoing off with a bunch of smart
people say is that your childshould not have a smartphone
(40:53):
anytime prior to the end ofeighth grade.
By the way, I didn't do that.
I'm still learning at the time,but we have an ability.
I think a lot of people you'restill, you're even getting
studies.
Jonathan Hyde is the one whosaid at the end of eighth grade,
but even he says, hey, thelonger you can go, the better.
Let that child's brain develop.
So because I believe, if you, ifyou, whether you give your kid
a phone at fifth grade or 10thgrade, I still think they're
(41:14):
going to mimic what you model.
So you have to model that.
That's where the two comes in.
The four reduces the socialisolation and the eight is just
relying on the science thattelling it it you should wait as
long as you can.
So this is where it gets into.
Back to the two to your pointis let's think of this as the
spinning wheel.
We have a great ability tomodel a good relationship so
(41:34):
that our kids will not pricktheir fingers when it comes to
them getting their phone, atwhatever age they get it.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Amen, I love that so much.
I love your two, four, two,four, eight analogy.
Yes, I love that.
We always say and I I really,really appreciated what you said
is we want to reduce it to anage.
We always say it should be moreabout behavior than birthday,
and so you can say eighth gradebut also say eighth grade and
(42:01):
you're doing this, this and this.
And most of those things thatnext talk revolve around them
reporting things to us, likethem confiding in us what's
happening in the bathroom atschool, what's happening in the
locker room at school.
The more they're confiding inyou, the more they're going to
confide in you about what'shappening on their phone.
Both of us recognize it's morecomplicated.
We want to simplify.
(42:21):
We want to say, okay, at 16,they're the golden age, Okay,
they're good, but it's more.
It's harder work than that.
It's us being the model, it'sus teaching them how to use it.
It's all of these componentsworking together and, of course,
our main mission is gettingthem to talk to us like that
open communication, that healthydialogue that we want to have.
(42:43):
So I just think this show wasso full of good information for
our parents.
Is there anything else youwould like to share with our
audience?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
I just want people to cling to hope here.
The Bible says I would havelost heart if I would have not
believed.
I'd see the goodness of God.
In other words, we will loseheart if we feel like this is
futile, and I promise you it'snot.
I promise you it's not futile.
And a story for mine again, andI'm telling you this was a real
struggle for me.
This is why we started this.
So on May 8th 2020, and I wrotethis in my journal because of
(43:17):
what happened this night On May8th 2020, my daughter, gianna
and I she was 10 years old wewatched a movie together and at
the end of the movie, she turnedto me and she wasn't
congratulating me, she wasn'tjudging me, she just turned to
me and she said dad, did youknow?
That's the first time we've everwatched a movie and you haven't
had your phone.
So this is right around when wewere starting the business and
it felt like a real gut punch.
It felt like have I reallygotten this wrong for 10 years?
(43:39):
But what felt good was shenoticed.
She noticed that moment ofpresence, even if it was the
first moment of presence she hadin 10 years when we watched a
movie.
She noticed it so fast forwardMay 8th 2024, I read this.
I have a five-year journal.
I read that in my five-yearjournal and I asked Gianna she's
14 at the time.
I said, gianna, do you rememberwhen you said that to me after
(43:59):
we watched the movie when youwere 10?
And she laughed and she said,dad, it would be so weird if you
had your phone during a movienow.
So within four years, mandy,everything had changed.
Her entire paradigm of what itis like to be with dad had
changed.
So at 10 years old, it was dadwas partially present.
At 14 years old, his dad isfully present.
(44:21):
So that has reverberatingeffects on what she now expects
out of relationships for therest of her life.
So for the person who'sstruggling with this, for the
person who feels like theyfailed at it, I would just
encourage you.
It can change and it may not beovernight, but that daily work
that you put in, that dailyeffort, that little bit five
minutes, 10 minutes, building upto two hours a day and even
(44:41):
beyond that, will pay off.
It is absolutely worth it andyou will bear fruit on the other
side of that.
So I just want to encouragesomebody who's struggling with
it.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Keep digging in, keep digging in, stop at nothing.
I promise you it is aworthwhile fight.
Amen, amen.
Where can people contact you?
Do you have a website that youwant to tell us about?
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, people can go to reclaimwellcom.
We are generally fororganizations, so if you're part
of an organization, you say,hey gosh, this would be a really
cool wellness benefit for ourstaff, particularly if you're in
a church staff or avalues-aligned organization.
This is what we do.
We provide this for employeesof organizations and their
families, so, as a group, youcan begin to reclaim the most
(45:21):
important thing.
So that's reclaimwellcom.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Like a technology wellness benefit.
That's right I love the concept.
Well, thank you for being here,Joey.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Say hello to your family for me, and I'm so
excited that you took the timeto record this podcast are not
intended to replace the adviceof a trained healthcare or legal
professional, or to diagnose,treat or otherwise render expert
advice regarding any type ofmedical.
No-transcript.
Welcome to the Next Talk podcast.
We are a nonprofit passionateabout keeping kids safe online.
We're learning together how tonavigate tech, culture and faith
with our kids.
We have a special guest on theNext Talk podcast today.
Joey Odom is joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Mandy Majors.
It's so good to see by the way,I'm sure you've heard this
Mandy Majors just flows.
My wife, kristen.
She had this wonderful maidenname Lombardo how beautiful is
that name and then she had totake on Odom.
You married into a great name,mandy Majors.
What a solid name.
Thank you for having me on.
It's so good to see you.
I'm such a massive fan of NextTalk and really, really excited
(00:42):
to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Well, tell our guests who you are.
A little bit of backgroundabout you and your family and
your ministry.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sure, yeah, I am my wife Kristen and I.
We've been married for 21 years.
We met in college at OralRoberts University in Tulsa,
oklahoma.
We're a little bit Mandy, alittle bit of an odd couple.
I'm 6'5" and my wife claimsfive feet tall.
She's probably 4'11 and threequarters, so we got a foot and a
(01:08):
half between us.
As a result, we had massivechildren at birth.
So my poor wife, after my sonHarrison, who's now 17,.
After he was born he was ninepounds.
So 18 hours of labor, emergencyC-section, and I told my wife
after that nine pound monstercame out of her tiny little body
.
I said you have to find asmaller father for the next
(01:30):
child.
But luckily she didn't, so shekept me.
That was wonderful.
Then we had Gianna.
Two years later she's 15 yearsold.
We live in Knoxville, tennessee,and I'm co-founder of an
organization called Reclaim Well.
Reclaim Well is an organizationdedicated to helping people
reclaim what matters most andthat specifically comes to
helping us curb this distractionof our technology, the
(01:53):
technology that we love and thatwe benefit from but can get in
the way of our most importantthings.
So we've been on mission withReclaim Well for the last five
years and just have this vision,this mission, and for people
who are listening, who maybe thedefenses go up when we talk
about curbing technology usage,I promise you we see so much
(02:13):
hope in this and if you'relistening, you've been
frustrated with it, or if youhave some victory in it.
No matter where you are in thecontinuum, we all feel it to
some degree and, mandy, justlike you, I just believe this is
such an amazing opportunity,such a hopeful opportunity for
us to do something to recaptureand reclaim life on the other
side of our phones.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Wow, that's a great mission statement.
Tell me what started you onthis work.
Like there's a story that youshare sometimes that I can
relate to.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Well, it was.
It was the fall of 2013.
And my son, harrison, who Imentioned, harrison who is 17
now.
He was five years old at thetime and, for anybody, he's
playing his first youth soccerseason.
So anybody who's been to ayouth soccer game, if you watch
these little five-year-olds, youknow that the kids who score
the goals are these reallyaggressive kids, the kids who
(03:04):
appear to be involved, maybe ina halfway house or in a work
release program.
Very aggressive children.
And Harrison was not one ofthose aggressive children.
So he's this sweet kid at fiveyears old and, as a result no
surprise everybody on the teamhad scored a goal this season,
except for Harrison.
So my wife and I and ourdaughter Gianna, we went on the
(03:25):
sidelines on another Saturdayafternoon to take in another
five-year-old soccer game.
But then, about midway throughthe first half, in the middle of
really the ordinary, somethingextraordinary emerged and
Harrison found himself standingin front of the soccer ball with
the goal in his sights and herears back his leg and he kicked
.
And what happened next?
(03:45):
Mandy, it's a little dramatic,but it has shaped me as a father
, as that ball rolled over thegrass and you kind of can
picture it like a slow motionmovie.
You cue the james hornerdramatic music in the background
as the ball glides over thegrass into the back of the net
for harrison's very first soccergoal.
And so that you so these sweetparents, they knew exactly what
(04:06):
had just happened.
So they're going wild.
His coach runs out on the fieldand he lifts up Harrison.
But there was this moment,mandy, right in between the ball
hitting the back of the net andHarrison's coach picking him up
.
When Harrison did something thefive-year-old boys do Harrison
turned to the sidelines to lockeyes with dad, to see the pride
on my face, to see the smile onmy face, to see the smile on my
(04:26):
face and to share this reallytruly magical moment together.
And it and it was magical withone slight exception, and that's
that I missed the entire moment.
Every bit of what I justdescribed I miss.
You see, when Harrison turnedto the sidelines to lock eyes
with me, all he saw was the topof my head, cause I was looking
down at my phone.
So I didn't see the goal, Ididn't see his coach pick him up
, I didn't see his beautifulface scanning the crowd to lock
(04:49):
eyes with mine and I didn't seethe light in his face fade to
disappointment when he realizedthat I had missed his big moment
.
So I missed that moment, and Ididn't really have the words for
it at the time, but I have thewords for it now.
The words I had at that momentwas ugh, just U-G-H ugh, that I
had missed this moment.
The words I have now, though,is that this relationship that I
(05:10):
had with my phone was gettingin the way of one of the most
important relationships in myentire life, so that was a
seminal moment.
I'd like to say, mandy, thateverything got better after I
had that realization, but itdidn't.
It didn't really have thetoolkit.
So I probably missed othermoments, and I probably phone
stubbed my wife and my kids andother phone conversations, but I
look back on that moment to saysomething's wrong.
(05:31):
So I got a call a couple ofyears later from a good friend
of mine, heath Wilson, and hesaid hey, I have an idea what,
what if?
And he had known of this storyand we were friends, and he said
what if we could help otherfamilies?
What if we could help otherpeople avoid moments like this?
What if we could help peoplereclaim the most important
things in life.
And that was the beginning ofReclaim, well, of just this
(05:54):
question, well, starting withfailure, and then a question of
what if?
What if the world could lookdifferent.
So we've been on a missionsince then to help other dads,
other moms, not miss soccergoals, to have great family
dinners, to have greatconversations, to have nice
walks around the block, toengage in deep work, eliminating
again, not throwing away oursmartphones, but helping to
(06:15):
eliminate those distractions inimportant moments.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
I love this story, joey, because I think we can all
relate to it, but I think thedifference is not all of us are
as humble enough to admit itlike you are, and I think it's
so great that a dad is willingto step up and say I missed this
moment and I got to take chargeof this.
Now I've got to be intentional.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Well, that's very nice of you to say.
I will say it's one of thosemoments you're grateful for of
forced humility.
That was nothing being great onmy own, of just being forced
into a moment where you justthink something's wrong here.
And fortunately I had my wife'sMandy.
I still have bruises on my ribsfrom my wife's elbow when I
missed the goal, so I still feelthat.
But it's this recognition again, having a great partner there
(07:03):
too, just knowing her, knowingwhat's important to me, and
saying, hey, you missed what'simportant to you.
And again, I think a lot ofpeople fall in this category of
just saying, yeah, I've messedup and we can get into a big
discussion on this and it'sprobably worth it to some degree
, maybe a little bit later.
But this is the greatest toolhere that's being used against
this feeling of shame you know,shame being a good indicator but
(07:26):
a bad motivator.
And very often when it comes tothis, when it comes to this
topic, we are so bogged down byshame, we're so bogged down by
the mistakes that we've made,that we grow resigned to believe
that that's just the way it is.
And I just and I think probablyanybody listening to this
podcast I know you agree withthis.
I just refuse to believe that.
I just don't resign myselfeasily to things like that.
(07:49):
When you say it's just the wayit is, that's a hard thing for
me to swallow and I think a lotof people there raises up in us
a little bit of a healthydefiance that says no, I think
we can do better.
Then that was the case for meand I think people I know
listening to this.
That's the case for me and Ithink people I know listen to
this.
That's the case for them.
For you I know that's the casefor you.
To all the people you speakwith, that's the case for them.
Just saying I want to do betterand help me, and so that's our
(08:10):
goal is how can we?
How can we help, just likeNextalk?
How can we help others and givethem the tools they need to
improve in this area?
That's so important.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I love how our ministries line up because, um,
you know, one of the corepractices of next talk is look
in the mirror, and it's thatlooking in the mirror and
realizing what are we doingwrong and not getting stuck in
the shame, like you said, butbeing humble enough to be like,
yeah, I didn't get that right.
I need to apologize to my kidand go back and repair the
relationship.
(08:38):
Here.
We call it like recovery andrepair.
Right, we got to go back andrepair because we're all going
to make mistakes.
We're all going to.
We're human.
I love what one of my teammembers said because she she
said, you know, he's like nexttalk for adults, we're next talk
for kids, he's next talk foradults.
And I love that because yousaid something that I want to go
back to.
(08:59):
You said this relationship thatwe have with our phones,
because this is going to impactand have a ripple effect for all
the other relationships in ourlife.
So let's dive into that.
What does that mean?
To have a relationship withyour phone?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Isn't that funny.
I just laugh anytime.
I hear I'm the one who said ittoo, but I bet when I said
relationship with phones, I betyou nobody bristled.
I bet you nobody thought thatway.
To say that's weird.
I bet you nobody did, becausethat's such a common piece of
how we refer to this.
Now we talk about myrelationship with my phone or,
collectively, our relationshipwith technology.
It's just, it's in ourvernacular now and we started
(09:38):
thinking about this a couple ofyears ago and we thought hold on
one second.
I think that might be weirdthat we're talking about
relationships with phones.
So let's think about otherobjects in our lives that we as
adults let's focus on adults fora second that we as adults have
my car eh, not really.
It kind of gets me from A to B.
I think about my lawnmower.
(09:59):
I see my lawnmower once a weekfor about nine months out of the
year, but it's not as if when aconversation gets boring, I go
sneak out for a quick mow, right, but we do this, we do this
with our phones.
Things get boring.
We kind of take a look at themand, as we've thought about this
, while it's very unique foradults to have relationships
(10:20):
with objects.
That's very odd.
I think this is maybe you findsome exceptions I think this is
the singular object.
We really have a relationship,non-living object.
But infants and toddlers, theyhave relationships with objects,
as you think about it.
They have relationships withtheir blankies, they have
relationships with their binkies, they have relationships with
their teddy bears and these allhave a word and that word.
(10:41):
These are comfort objects.
Another word, form, istransitional objects and they
serve a very vital purpose inthe development of a child.
So what it does?
A child clings to atransitional object.
They cling to a comfort objectto give them a sense of security
, to give them a sense ofcomfort in the absence of
relationships.
In other words, parent walksout of the room, child cries,
(11:04):
holds onto the teddy bear and itmakes them feel better.
But as we know, this is just aphase.
Before long a child realizes Ican do this on my own.
So they discard this comfortobject, they discard this
transitional object.
So what's interesting aboutphones is that phones have
reverted we as adults.
They've reverted us back to achildlike state of relationship
(11:25):
with an object.
We cling to this object.
But the difference is, wherechildren cling to an object, in
the absence of relationships.
We cling to this object in thepresence of relationships.
We'll be at the dinner tablewith people that we love, and we
are clinging to our phone.
We're looking down on our phoneinstead of the eyes of the
people that we love.
Think about Mandy for a second.
Think about what happens.
(11:46):
Think about infertility issuesfor just a moment.
Think about how hard it is for,how unlikely it is for any
human to become to be born.
I mean, that is that is, youknow, a one in a billion chance
for that individual to be born.
So we work so hard, some of usspend so much time, effort,
money, even to become pregnant,to have a child, and then, all
of a sudden, we're clinging toan object instead of looking in
(12:09):
their eyes.
At the dinner table, we'll be inthe middle of a conversation,
so it's absolute lunacy.
Would we do this?
And, by the way, let's go back.
No shame, this is all of us.
You're talking to the chief ofcenters here, you know, before
we start on this journey.
But we're clinging to thisobject and we're calling it a
relationship and, by the way, itis a relationship.
We have a relationship with anobject instead of thinking of
(12:33):
this as a utility device andthis relationship and none of
this matters, by the way.
None of it matters except forthe fact that it is getting in
the way of not just our otherrelationships but our own
intentions, the things we wantfor our lives.
If I go ask anybody who'slistening here, what do you want
?
They would go through personalgoals, relational goals,
(12:53):
spiritual goals.
Yet we would also acknowledgethat the number one distraction,
absolutely the number onedistraction is this silly little
thing that we have arelationship that sits in our
pockets.
It's a little crazy, but it istrue.
And I think when we begin toname it, when we begin to
recognize it as a relationship,when we recognize that it's
getting in the way of moreimportant relationships, only
(13:16):
then can we begin to dosomething about it that's truly
effective.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I mean it's becoming an idol.
It becomes an idol in our lifeand this is why I love the work
that you're doing, because wealways say at Next Talk, we are
the adult in our home, theculture is not going to change
unless we change it, becausewe're the leaders in our home
right.
But if we are not leading wellwith a healthy balance with our
(13:39):
phones, we can't get mad at our14 old that doesn't have a
healthy balance right, Becausewe have created that culture.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You just said something that we think about
this all the time.
We call this the 3M parent trap.
By the way, what we do asparents is we model a bad
relationship with our phones.
That's the first M.
We model this.
And when I say model a badrelationship, let's define bad
relationship.
I would say bad relationshipwould be your phone at the
(14:09):
dinner table.
I would say a bad relationshipwould be looking at our phone
when someone's trying to talk tous, when my 15-year-old
daughter is trying to talk to me, if I just take one glance at
the phone, that kills thatmoment.
We model that bad relationship.
One day our kids get a phone and, by the way, whether you've
waited until eight or you waiteduntil 10th or you gave it to
them in sixth grade, whateverthat is, I don't care the age
(14:32):
when we have modeled a badrelationship, our kids do
something very unsurprising isthey mimic what we have modeled.
That they have their phones atthe dinner table Shocker.
That they phone snub us in themiddle of a conversation.
We're trying to talk to themShocker.
But then we do something crazy.
(14:52):
Absolutely crazy is that wehave the audacity to get mad at
our kids for mimicking what wemodeled to them.
So, everybody listening here,let's let's begin to ask
ourselves a really hard question.
You said look in the mirror,let's ask ourselves a question
Am I modeling a relationshipthat I want my child to mimic
someday?
Studies will tell us that thenumber one predictor of how your
child will use a phone somedayis how you use your phone today.
(15:14):
So we have to begin to model arelationship with our phones
that we want our kids to mimic.
This may sound heavy handed,this may cut to the heart.
If you're feeling yourdefensiveness come up, it may be
because there's some truth init.
However, let's not forget thisis wonderful news.
This is incredible news because, what do we say?
The number one predictor of howyour child will use a phone
someday is how you use yourphone today.
(15:35):
So if you're modeling arelationship that you want your
kids to mimic, oh my, that'spowerful, because then the third
M instead of getting mad, westart making memories and we
start doing incredibly wonderfulthings, all as a result of us
looking in a mirror to yourpoint and beginning to model a
relationship that we want ourkids to mimic someday.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
And what a cool family journey.
I mean I feel like I've been ona decade long journey to be
like I got that wrong, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have had my phone
out, and they see me apologizefor that.
I have seen my own kids then bemore humble when they get stuff
wrong with their phone becauseI'm again modeling the apology
and it's.
It's a process Like we're alllearning.
(16:15):
We're all going to get thiswrong sometimes in your home is
so great around technologyversus no technology.
It's off limits, but I'm goingto use it forever.
And then there's this powerstruggle in the home.
You know, we always say teachyour kid to use a phone Like
you're going to teach them howto drive a car, like in a
(16:36):
step-by-step approach.
That's what we believe at NextTalk.
But I love what you're doingand so if we focus on this
relationship, that that we'rethe solution here, the parents
are the solution and we have tohave a relationship, a healthy
relationship with our phones.
Help us put this in perspectivefor us, because I feel like
this is going to be some deep,soul searching work here that
you're going to, that you'regoing to dive into here.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yes, I would say, if we view it through the lens of
relationship, and again, andlet's, and let's clarify, there
are a lot of when we think aboutthis, there are a lot of things
that can really go awry on yourphones from all the things you
can access, go into the depthsof pornography and all that kind
of stuff.
I'm going to narrow thisdiscussion, from my perspective,
(17:20):
within the impact that it hason relationships.
And so, if we view it throughthe lens of relationship, let's
think about okay, well, why isit a relationship?
Yes, we're clinging to it likechildren, but why?
Well, the definingcharacteristic in our
relationship with our phones andthis is where it's gonna start
getting very simple and maysound overly simplistic, but I
(17:40):
promise you this is the core ofit and when you begin to change
this element of it, everythingwill change and it begins.
The defining characteristic inour relationship with our phones
, very simply, is our constantproximity to our phones, period.
They are always with us, andthis may sound obvious.
Let me explain why this is sopowerful.
91% of us have our phoneswithin arm's reach 24 hours a
(18:02):
day.
That includes when we'resleeping.
We use it as our alarm clocks.
That's 91%.
That is a massive number andthat's the defining
characteristic in ourrelationship with our phones.
By the way, I'm not demonizingthis.
Is just a matter of fact thatwe have our phones with us all
the time.
So there's the proximity.
As a result of the proximity,we are constantly interacting
(18:22):
with our phones.
So the data will tell us that89% of smartphone usage is
self-initiated.
So it's us, it's not the apps,that are grabbing us, it's not
the notifications that aregrabbing us.
It's us because our phones arewith us all the time, picking up
our phones, and we know whathappens when that happens.
I'll just out myself here.
The US Open tennis turn ishappening right now.
(18:43):
We are a massive tennis familyin our family, so I'll pick up
my phone and I'll go to ESPN andI'll just want to check one
score.
And then that becomes I checkmy email, which I, then I check
the weather and then I check thescore again.
Then I go to the baseballscores and I look who Oklahoma's
playing in football thisweekend, and then you go down
this rabbit trail of interactionthat only began because it was
(19:06):
with me.
If I didn't have my phone withme sounds obvious.
If I didn't have my phone withme, I would have not looked at
ESPN in that moment.
So that proximity resulted ininteraction, and what that leads
to is a dependence on our phone.
We call that the PID loop.
Proximity led to interaction,which leads to dependence, and
because we feel dependent on ourphones, oh, I have to have it
(19:28):
with me all the time.
What does that do?
That leads us back to proximity, which leads us to interaction,
which leads to dependence,which leads us back to proximity
, and it goes in a cycle.
By the way, this is how we formhuman relationships.
We're around somebody, weinteract with them more, we
become dependent on them, not ina bad way, we just become.
We just, you know, lead to somedependencies on them, whether
it's practical things like helpor emotional support, whatever
(19:49):
that is and then we're aroundthem more.
So it all.
This is how we've formed thisrelationship.
The point here is on the PIDloop is it all begins with
proximity is when you break theproximity, you begin to use your
phone.
Very obviously, you use it alittle bit less.
When you use a little bit less,you become a little bit less
dependent on it.
When you're a little bit lessdependent on your phone, you
(20:10):
realize maybe I don't need it inproximity with me all the time,
but it all begins with thatproximity.
So what we tell people veryprescriptively is spend time
physically distant from yourphone every day.
Now I understand our phones aredo wonderful things for us.
If you're a mom, I bet you yourto-do list happens on your phone
.
I bet you're running the homethrough your phone.
(20:31):
I bet you, if you're, if you'reat the office, you use your
phone a lot for that.
So I'm not necessarily talkingabout those moments.
What I'm talking about arethese moments.
Maybe when everybody you loveis at home with you.
It's a pretty good moment foryou to spend a little bit of
time away from your phone andthen, instead of interacting
with your phone, you'reinteracting with the people
around you, and then you realizethat life may be a little bit
better on the other side of yourphone.
(20:52):
What we tell people is, ifyou're in the 91% club which I
bet you are, because that's thevast majority just begin today
by spending five minutes apartfrom your phone.
Literally and I know thatsounds simplistic Just start
five minutes and then tomorrow10 minutes and start building on
that.
Build up to what if you spenttwo hours a day physically
distant from your phone.
Two hours, and it doesn't haveto be consecutive.
(21:15):
What if you did some in themorning?
Let's say you have morningdevotion two hours, and it
doesn't have to be consecutive.
What if you did some in themorning?
Let's say you have morningdevotion and then let's say you
go on an evening walk with yourspouse, or maybe for a family
dinner, or maybe if you'retucking your kids in, maybe
don't bring your phone in theirbedroom with you.
And what if you aggregated twohours a day?
And here's why two hours, mandy,is that when you spend two
hours a day physically distantfrom your phone over the course
(21:37):
of a year, you have justreclaimed one month out of your
year.
So we live in a culture wherewe're short on time, where we
don't have enough time, and youjust lived a 13-month year.
It sounds so simple and sobasic which, by the way,
anything valuable is simple.
You want to go, get more fit,eat a little bit less, move a
little bit more.
It's all simple.
That does not mean theexecution is easy.
(22:04):
But that is the answer from ourperspective is break that
proximity which lessens theinteraction, which reduces the
dependence, which will result inless proximity, interaction and
dependence.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
So you said, two hours a day away from our phone
reclaims one month of our time.
And I'm going to challenge youthose those two hours like maybe
it's bedtime with your kids,dinnertime, you know those core,
key times that you can reallyjust put your phone in another
room and focus on yourrelationships, your marriage, I
(22:29):
mean we're so bad.
I mean I remember one nightMatt crawled in bed with me and
I was on my phone, you know,doing next talk work, and he
said to me Mandy, I get youalone for like 45 minutes a day.
Can you put the phone down,right?
And it just pierced me because Iwas like we are so bad at this,
like it has robbed us.
(22:49):
And as you were talking to Joey, you know, I thought to myself
we're talking here about how itcan impact our relationship with
our marriage and our kids.
But as you were talking, Ithought the only person that
ever goes with me everywhere isJesus.
Right, like I'm a Christian andso my faith?
(23:11):
I don't.
My husband doesn't go with methroughout my day, but my phone
does, doesn't go with methroughout my day, but my phone
does.
And I just had this thought ofhow is this affecting our
relationship, our faith with God?
Because normally when I'm alone, I'm praying, I'm talking to
(23:31):
Jesus, I'm re-quoting scripture,but what have I done?
I've filled that with podcastlistening and all kinds of stuff
with my phone.
So how is this impacting ourfaith on our spiritual journeys?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
This is one of these things and, by the way, this is
what's so great about this is,wherever you fall on the
continuum of faith, this hits,this applies to you, no matter
where you are, and this is whyby the way, this is also another
reason why I think you shouldread the Bible.
Well, I think you should go tochurch, because what I'm about
to tell you I believe this comesfrom Jesus's mouth 2000 years
(24:07):
ago, and it's never been moreapplicable than today.
And that is the idea when youread through the Bible.
The Bible is obsessed.
God is obsessed with fruit.
He loves it.
He talks about fruit all thetime.
Garden of Eden talks aboutfruit, talk about fruitfulness.
You talk about unfruitfulness.
You talk about bearing fruit.
There are over five on averageper chapter, over 300 references
(24:29):
to fruit and fruitfulness andunfruitfulness, all throughout
the Bible.
So that's five per book of theBible and it's sitting under our
noses.
But let's look at how prevalentof a theme this is in Scripture
is fruit, and when we say fruit,we're talking about increase.
We're talking about doing wellwith the things that we have.
Bearing fruit is taking a seedand making it bigger.
(24:50):
So the Bible talks about thisall the time and Jesus talks
about in the parable of thesower.
He talks about a seed, talksabout seed falling among
different, different types ofsoil and he talks about a soil
where he talks about the thornsin the soil.
And here's what the thorns dothe thorns will choke out the
seed and they make it unfruitful.
So so a seed has potential.
(25:11):
Let's just think about, let'sthink about, let's think about a
time with you and Matt at night.
You're 45 minutes.
That's a seed that haspotential for fruit.
That is a seed that has amoment.
Let's think about my, let'sthink about my 20 minutes of
quiet time this morning when Iread the Bible and prayed.
That is a seed that haspotential for fruit.
Let's think about a familydinner that's a seed that has
(25:32):
potential for fruit.
And we are, we live, we live inthis vast, this unbelievable
amount of opportunity, withseeds all around us.
But there's this thing calledthe thorns and Jesus says a seed
fell among the thorns and thethorns choke out the seed,
making it unfruitful.
And if you think about thegrowth pattern, this is so
fascinating.
(25:52):
We're getting kind of deep inyou know, breakdown of the
parable here, but when you thinkabout how thorns grow.
What thorns will do is theywill wrap around, they will coil
around a plant, and so youthink about it from the
beginning.
They are positioning themselves, they are growing with a clear
intention to choke out thatplant, to choke out the
potential of fruit being bearingfrom that plant.
(26:14):
So Jesus says and this is wherethis is where it starts getting
into our phones and therepresentation of our phones
Jesus says that the thornsrepresent three things.
They represent the worries oflife, the thorns represent the
pleasures of life, and thethorns represent the
deceitfulness of wealth Worriesof life, pleasures of life,
(26:35):
deceitfulness of wealth.
So these are the thorns thathave the potential to choke out
the good things in our life andmaking them unfruitful.
I don't believe there is agreater representation for our
phones than these three things.
So let's break each one down.
Let's think about the worriesof life, the worries of life.
Let's just think what lives onour phone.
We have our Twitter feeds, wehave our news feeds, we have our
(26:57):
emails, all of these things.
When you go on your news feed,you can't go on the news and not
feel some level of worry.
And so what does that do?
That begins to choke out, chokeout our minds.
Then you have the pleasures oflife, all the ways that we can
escape on our phone.
Let's think about the Netflix,the gaming, the gambling,
pornography, whatever it is.
(27:17):
These are those pleasures oflife that we're trying to escape
the present moment, and we gofind that solace on our phones.
And then the deceitfulness ofwealth.
This one I love, and this iswhere Jesus this is why you
should read your Bible again.
That's such a brilliant way toput it.
It's not the wealth, it's thedeceitfulness of wealth.
Wealth lies to us.
It tells us stories.
So you go on your Instagramfeed, let's say you and your
(27:39):
family are on a vacation inTampa and you're enjoying your
time, you're having a great timeand connection.
And then you go on yourInstagram feed and you see a
friend who's on vacation inTahiti and all of a sudden, that
Tampa vacation isn't quite asfun and you start thinking, if I
had that Tahiti money, if I hadthat kind of money, then I'd
really be happy.
So the deceitfulness of wealthis telling you that what you
have is not enough.
(28:00):
And this all lives within ourphones.
And even to take it one stepfurther, manny, think about even
the rhythm of our days.
Think about the morning, theworries of life.
If we use our phone as an alarmclock, you roll over and you
turn off your alarm and youstart looking at your phone even
before you've gotten in theword or said good morning Jesus,
(28:22):
looking at your phone evenbefore you've gotten in the word
or said or said good morningJesus.
If you look at your phone, allof a sudden those worries of
life begin to choke out the seedbefore your days even started
and make it unfruitful thepleasures of life.
Those things usually happen atthe end of the day.
You've had a long day at workand then you try to escape and
so it chokes out that eveningtime that's so precious.
Again, we, we, we talked beforewe went on air about our kids
and you have one child, and youknow, senior in high school, and
you have another graduated fromcollege.
I have two high schoolers and Ithink that's those are the
golden hours right there.
(28:42):
But it can choke out that seed.
And then the middle of the day,when we're, when it's money
making time in the middle of theday, and that deceitfulness,
wealth, can choke it out.
So the implications for all thegood things, but in our.
The specific reference in theparable of the sower is our walk
with Jesus, is the potential wehave to bear fruit, the
(29:03):
spiritual implications even forpastors who may be listening.
Think about putting so muchtime into, into a sermon series
and then giving a message on aSunday.
Then all of a sudden, yourpeople receive that word and
then all of a sudden that justone glance at their phone
totally chokes out the word thatGod has given you.
Again, this is we're talkingthorns and choking and death and
unfruitfulness and all thatkind of stuff.
(29:23):
Here's the great news, mandy,is when we recognize that these
are thorns whose sole intentionis to choke us out and we
believe.
Another interesting thing wewere in the yard yesterday.
My wife and I were working andthere was, there was a vine that
grew up with the other, with,you know, in our, in our front
garden, and it almost lookedindecipherable to the healthy
(29:45):
plant Right, and this is how ourphones look is it almost looks
indecipherable that it's such aninextricable part of our lives.
But hold on one second.
These are thorns and if we canprune them back and we have to
do a constant pruning and we cankeep tending to our garden and
holding them away, then all of asudden we are going to be good
soil that bears fruit.
So the spiritual implicationsare massive, and if we can
(30:09):
recognize these as threats, theyare threats.
They want to kill us if we letthem go untamed.
But we can do something aboutit.
We begin to prune these back sothat we can then bear good food
in our lives.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I love that visual.
I love that visual because youknow, when you say bear fruit,
I'm constantly thinking aboutthe relationship with my kids.
You know we're parenting, wefocus on parenting.
So much at.
Next Talk, and I'm thinkingabout the relationship with my
kids.
You know we're parenting, wefocus on parenting so much at
Next Talk, and I'm thinkingabout the fruitfulness of each
conversation that I've been ableto have with them over the
years.
You know late at night, at 2 am, and you know just when they're
(30:42):
ready to talk and how.
If I could perceive that as butI'm on my phone bed rotting and
I don't want to get up out ofmy bed to check on my kid,
that's a thorn that could chokeout this moment with my kids.
(31:03):
That could be a memory and amajor discipling moment with my
kid too.
Right, If I start to make thatswitch in my mind, I think it
helps make better choices withmy phone, which is what you're
trying to do.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And, by the way, this, thiswill be a lot like anything else
in your life.
It this is going to be veryhard at first.
I really do believe that, andwe're and you're also going to
begin to condition yourself andit's become to feel more natural
.
And then, when you start doingpractical things, like like
curating your environment, sothat, um, so you don't have to
(31:37):
rely so much on willpower JamesClear talks about this in atomic
habits.
He said that environment isalways stronger than willpower.
So if you're relying if youjust imagine you you're a smoker
and you're trying to stopsmoking you're probably not
going to keep a pack ofcigarettes in your pocket.
You're probably going toeliminate those, the possibility
of those being being with you.
So what are those moments inyour life when you can think
(31:57):
okay, it is time to put the kidsdown to bed.
What a great moment for me toput my phone down.
What if let's think about inyour, in your marriage?
How cool is this is if you goon a on a date night, let's say
you have people will say this Iwant a date night.
What if the babysitter callsOkay, well, let's think about
environment, let's think aboutlet's frame it with these thorns
want to choke out thispotentially fruitful moment with
(32:20):
my spouse.
So what can I do here?
I love and this is so verypractical when you sit down at
the dinner table on a date nightwith your spouse, do a phone
swap so you are accessible, butyou're probably not going to
doom scroll your spouse's phone.
So let's begin to think of italways with the beginning.
This is a, this is apotentially beautiful moment.
(32:40):
There are thorns here thatcould choke it out.
So what are the practicalthings that I'm going to do, the
environmental shifts that I canmake that will begin to ensure
that thorns will not choke outthis moment?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I love that.
That's a very practical example.
The other thing, too is I wouldjust say to my people call me,
I'll have my ringer on, but it'sin my purse, you know, don't
text me, I'm not checking texts.
You know, I, when I startedgetting serious about trying to
do this, that was one of thethings that I would even tell my
team is, if there's anemergency, call me, but I'm not
(33:14):
checking my text.
I'm going to put my watch onairplane mode.
You know that's that's.
Take the watch off completely,whatever you have to do.
But I like what you said, theexample of the cigarettes we
have to be serious about.
If we, if we truly cannot getaway from our phone, we, we have
to make space, we have tocreate the space.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Mandy, I have a.
I have a suspicion.
I bet you that you have notgotten that many emergency calls
after you've done that you.
You did that.
You may, you felt good toyourself, but I bet you haven't
had this, uh, this plethora ofemergency calls in that moment.
It's a very good practice, butwhat we find over time and I'd
be curious your experience here,I bet what you found over time
is that, oh, not a lot ofemergency calls came in.
(33:55):
I was actually fine without it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
A hundred percent could wait.
A hundred percent could wait,and that's the other thing, even
if there was a DM that wascoming in with panicked like I
need to have parameters aboutthat, like I can't just start
responding to DMS at 2 AM.
That's not healthy for me,right?
So I need to be sleeping.
So so you, you have to createit's, it's boundaries to protect
(34:18):
your sanity.
You know, I want to dive intothis like relationship with
Jesus more, because, because Ikeep you know, as a parent, one
of the things we teach at nexttalk, you know, is if we're not
okay, if we're not stable, ifwe're not peaceful, if we're not
calm, we're not going to raisekids who are right.
(34:39):
And part of me helping with myworry, my anxiety, all of that
kind of stuff is, of course, youknow, therapy, medication, all
that kind of stuff.
Right, you know no wrong answer.
God can show up in all thesedifferent places, but if I am
not constantly connected toJesus, I see the ugly that comes
out of me.
I see the ugly, and so how muchis that robbing us of just not
(35:04):
having this peaceful time withJesus to like recenter our soul,
so that when we pick the kidsup and they bombard us, you know
, on the way home from school.
With all these things, we'recalm and we're ready for that,
versus bed rotting all day or onour phones all day, running
from one thing to another, beingconnected all day and not even
(35:25):
having a moment with God at all.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Well, the thing we know from scripture.
We know that God speaks inwhispers.
We know that when Elijah wentto the I always get my Elijahs
and Elishas mixed up, so don'tcomment with my wrong Elijah
versus Elisha but when Godcalled him out and he said he
wanted to be with the Lord, thenthe earthquake happened and
(35:49):
said that God was not in theearthquake.
Then the fire happened, but Godwas not in the fire.
But then a still small voice oror another translations that
says a gentle whisper, and thatgentle whisper that draws us in.
And we don't give ourselvesthis moment to hear the gentle
whisper.
And I will tell you, for thoseof you who experienced, those of
us who experienced, there's nogreater place David says, better
(36:12):
is one day in your courts thana thousand elsewhere that we,
when we have those moments andhere's what's cool about that
too we we start to get filled upthe fruit of the spirit, the
Holy spirit that is in us, thatJesus gave us, the fruit of the
spirit.
And so back to fruit.
And, by the way, this is notsomething we're creating.
The thing that overflows fromus is a list that a lot of us
know called the fruits of thespirit and I bet you that
(36:34):
everybody listening would wantthese things in their lives.
We want love, joy, peace,patience and kindness and
goodness and faithfulness andgentleness and self-control.
We want all of those things.
But that is only an overflowingof the Holy Spirit in us that
only comes from us quietingourselves down, slowing
ourselves down and listening forthe whisper.
(36:55):
It is a truly by the way youand I both probably experienced
this.
This is something that it's soeasy to get away from, but when
we experience it, there'snothing like it Absolutely.
And what's cool about that,mandy, is it is just like this
solution we're talking about.
It is available to us at alltimes of the day.
I mean, even someone right nowcould just press pause for a
(37:17):
second and just just that deepbreath I mean I haven't felt it
all just a little bit of theslowdown.
And it is available to us atall times.
And let's not forget thegreatest threat to that and this
is super practical, it's notethereal the greatest threat to
that are the thorns that live inour pocket.
These I call them more I'mworking on a book on it right
(37:39):
now called the digital thorns.
These digital thorns threatento drown out that whisper that's
available to us at all times.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Well, god is available to us at all time and
our phones are available to usat all times and we we have got,
we've got to get a handle onthat.
So great stuff today.
I do want to end with this, soa lot of parents may be like
well, that's it, no phones, notechnology.
We're done here.
We're just taking it all off.
And you have a snow whiteanalogy that I would love for
(38:08):
you to share with our audience,because I think I want to end on
a positive note that tech canbe used for good and bad, and it
is our responsibility to teachour kids technology and to have
a healthy balance with it.
So tell us about your SnowWhite analogy here.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Yeah, it's actually in Sleeping Beauty.
If everybody remembers thestory, I get my Sleeping Beauty
in Snow White.
It's confused.
In Sleeping Beauty, when theprincess was young, when the
princess was an infant, therewas a prophecy given over the
princess that one day thisprincess would prick her finger
(38:43):
on a spinning wheel and send herinto an eternal slumber.
And so what did her parents do?
Is they got rid of everyspinning wheel in the entire
kingdom.
All the spinning wheels wereburned.
Somehow.
They forgot about one in thebasement, so that one was there.
And when Sleeping Beauty, whenshe encountered this spinning
wheel, she had never seen aspinning wheel before.
(39:04):
She had no idea what it was,she had no idea what it did.
And so what did she do?
She pricked her finger on thespinning wheel and the prophecy
was fulfilled.
When we think about this wholeidea of our phones like that
that we just want to get rid ofthem, we know, yes, there are
thorns, there's an ability toprick our fingers on the
spinning wheel.
But what if her parents wouldhave said hey, we're going to
(39:26):
teach her to be the greatestspinning wheel stress in all of
the kingdom and teach her how touse this thing?
Well, I think they had anamazing opportunity to do that.
Now we would have not been therecipients of such a good Disney
movie if they would have donethat, but they had that
opportunity.
So what's cool for us is thatwe can begin to do this really,
(39:46):
really well.
I mean people, even many people, ask us all the time hey, when
should I give my kid a phone,when should I give my kid a
phone?
And I think we want to reducethat down to an age.
We want to reduce that down.
I think it's a combination offactors.
If you were to ask me I wouldwe talk about two, four, eight.
We say for for two years, priorto your child getting a phone.
We believe you need to model agood relationship for a minimum
(40:09):
of two years.
By the way, three is betterthan two, five is better than
three.
So the longer you can model agood relationship, the four.
I think you have an opportunity, especially if you're within a
church setting or something likethat.
The four band together with fourof your kids, friends, families
, and I say that order veryspecifically your kids, friends,
their families, not yourfriends and their kids.
(40:30):
So four of your kids, friends,families, so that you are in
alignment together, which noneof us want our kids to be
socially isolated.
So what that does is thatreduces the potential of social
isolation.
And, by the way, start as youngas you can.
It's great to say, hey, we'regoing to give our kids a phone
at this age.
And then the eight we're justgoing off with a bunch of smart
people say is that your childshould not have a smartphone
(40:53):
anytime prior to the end ofeighth grade.
By the way, I didn't do that.
I'm still learning at the time,but we have an ability.
I think a lot of people you'restill, you're even getting
studies.
Jonathan Hyde is the one whosaid at the end of eighth grade,
but even he says, hey, thelonger you can go, the better.
Let that child's brain develop.
So because I believe, if you, ifyou, whether you give your kid
a phone at fifth grade or 10thgrade, I still think they're
(41:14):
going to mimic what you model.
So you have to model that.
That's where the two comes in.
The four reduces the socialisolation and the eight is just
relying on the science thattelling it it you should wait as
long as you can.
So this is where it gets into.
Back to the two to your pointis let's think of this as the
spinning wheel.
We have a great ability tomodel a good relationship so
(41:34):
that our kids will not pricktheir fingers when it comes to
them getting their phone, atwhatever age they get it.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Amen, I love that so much.
I love your two, four, two,four, eight analogy.
Yes, I love that.
We always say and I I really,really appreciated what you said
is we want to reduce it to anage.
We always say it should be moreabout behavior than birthday,
and so you can say eighth gradebut also say eighth grade and
(42:01):
you're doing this, this and this.
And most of those things thatnext talk revolve around them
reporting things to us, likethem confiding in us what's
happening in the bathroom atschool, what's happening in the
locker room at school.
The more they're confiding inyou, the more they're going to
confide in you about what'shappening on their phone.
Both of us recognize it's morecomplicated.
We want to simplify.
(42:21):
We want to say, okay, at 16,they're the golden age, Okay,
they're good, but it's more.
It's harder work than that.
It's us being the model, it'sus teaching them how to use it.
It's all of these componentsworking together and, of course,
our main mission is gettingthem to talk to us like that
open communication, that healthydialogue that we want to have.
(42:43):
So I just think this show wasso full of good information for
our parents.
Is there anything else youwould like to share with our
audience?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
I just want people to cling to hope here.
The Bible says I would havelost heart if I would have not
believed.
I'd see the goodness of God.
In other words, we will loseheart if we feel like this is
futile, and I promise you it'snot.
I promise you it's not futile.
And a story for mine again, andI'm telling you this was a real
struggle for me.
This is why we started this.
So on May 8th 2020, and I wrotethis in my journal because of
(43:17):
what happened this night On May8th 2020, my daughter, gianna
and I she was 10 years old wewatched a movie together and at
the end of the movie, she turnedto me and she wasn't
congratulating me, she wasn'tjudging me, she just turned to
me and she said dad, did youknow?
That's the first time we've everwatched a movie and you haven't
had your phone.
So this is right around when wewere starting the business and
it felt like a real gut punch.
It felt like have I reallygotten this wrong for 10 years?
(43:39):
But what felt good was shenoticed.
She noticed that moment ofpresence, even if it was the
first moment of presence she hadin 10 years when we watched a
movie.
She noticed it so fast forwardMay 8th 2024, I read this.
I have a five-year journal.
I read that in my five-yearjournal and I asked Gianna she's
14 at the time.
I said, gianna, do you rememberwhen you said that to me after
(43:59):
we watched the movie when youwere 10?
And she laughed and she said,dad, it would be so weird if you
had your phone during a movienow.
So within four years, mandy,everything had changed.
Her entire paradigm of what itis like to be with dad had
changed.
So at 10 years old, it was dadwas partially present.
At 14 years old, his dad isfully present.
(44:21):
So that has reverberatingeffects on what she now expects
out of relationships for therest of her life.
So for the person who'sstruggling with this, for the
person who feels like theyfailed at it, I would just
encourage you.
It can change and it may not beovernight, but that daily work
that you put in, that dailyeffort, that little bit five
minutes, 10 minutes, building upto two hours a day and even
(44:41):
beyond that, will pay off.
It is absolutely worth it andyou will bear fruit on the other
side of that.
So I just want to encouragesomebody who's struggling with
it.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Keep digging in, keep digging in, stop at nothing.
I promise you it is aworthwhile fight.
Amen, amen.
Where can people contact you?
Do you have a website that youwant to tell us about?
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, people can go to reclaimwellcom.
We are generally fororganizations, so if you're part
of an organization, you say,hey gosh, this would be a really
cool wellness benefit for ourstaff, particularly if you're in
a church staff or avalues-aligned organization.
This is what we do.
We provide this for employeesof organizations and their
families, so, as a group, youcan begin to reclaim the most
(45:21):
important thing.
So that's reclaimwellcom.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Like a technology wellness benefit.
That's right I love the concept.
Well, thank you for being here,Joey.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Say hello to your family for me, and I'm so
excited that you took the timeto record this podcast are not
intended to replace the adviceof a trained healthcare or legal
professional, or to diagnose,treat or otherwise render expert
advice regarding any type ofmedical.
No-transcript.
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