March 28, 2025 • 30 mins
Have you ever reacted or responded in a way that you know you totally messed up? The power of an apology is healthy for any relationship to repair and recover. What does this look like with our kids? With our spouse?
KEEPING KIDS SAFE ONLINE
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Next Talk podcast.
We are a nonprofit passionateabout keeping kids safe online.
We're learning together how tonavigate tech, culture and faith
with our kids.
Today we are joined by JamieMarchand she is a licensed
professional counselor who I'veknown for years.
(00:22):
We've worked with.
We met at a Next Talk event.
That's how we met.
I was an attendee, yes, and she.
She came up to me afterwardsand she's like okay, from a
counseling perspective, we gotthat and I was like all right,
you're going to be my student.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
It was just.
The rest is history.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yes, yes, she served on our advisory council for
years.
She's just a mentor, somebodythat I call to for advice
expertise.
She's reviewed sections from mybook with the mental health
stuff and said, okay, yes, thisis good, this is not, and so
she's just been a great resourcefor us at Next Talk.
(00:59):
But, jamie, tell us a littlebit like that's the professional
side.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Tell us a little bit about personal.
Yes, well, I know I've sharedmy history, but I'll just give a
quick refresh.
I started off as an elementaryschool teacher, moved to school
counseling and then, once myhusband and I started our family
with our three little girls, Itransitioned to private practice
and so that has been theprofessional journey and, like I
said, married with three littlegirls.
(01:23):
We have them very close in ageand, you know, we're just in the
throes of it because they'reall elementary, so we're at
fourth, second and kinder, andso, you know, as we are raising
these little girls, we're alsodoing our own work, my husband
and I, in regard to just workingthrough our own stuff.
So there is never a dull momentat our house.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yes.
Thank you for having me.
You're busy and you see kids,you see teenagers, you see
parents.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I mean I've said, I've referred so many people to
your practice and um.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You know, of course we can't talk about any of that
confidential, but I know I'vehad so many people come back to
me and one of the resoundingthings is I didn't know there
were counselors like Jamie.
You know, that is the one thingthat I get a lot Like.
I didn't know there werecounselors like Jamie.
You know, that is the one thingthat I get a lot Like.
I didn't know.
Counselors like her existed.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I think a lot of it is that God has just put so many
different situations in my lifeand it makes me very relatable
and I will not judge, and I havelots of things that keep me
humble.
So I think there's a level ofwhen you're counseling, you have
this idea that the personacross from you has it all
together and I will be the firstto say no, I do not.
So I think that is one thingthat you know.
(02:30):
God has really, just you know,given me this heart to just meet
people where they're at,because I have been on the other
side of it, where I'm the oneon the couch.
You know, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Absolutely Healing from our own personal trauma
experiences.
All of that.
Yeah, I think that's such agood point.
So I asked Jamie to come on theshow today because recently we
were having breakfast and wewere talking about some Next
Talk stuff and she shared thisstory with me about her daughter
and I was like, oh my gosh,Jamie, that's me Like I've done
(03:01):
that.
And so I was like come on thispodcast and I want to start with
the story and then I want tounpack it.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Cause we're titling this episode when you hijack the
moment, right.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
When you hijack the moment.
So so, jamie, what?
What moment did you hijack?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, you know, as I mentioned, I'm a girl mom, right
.
So there is just lots of, youknow, typical girl stuff
happening in my house.
So we go to a uniform school.
So one of my little ones, likewe realized you have no clothes,
like we just live in uniforms,you know.
And so we're like we need to goshopping.
So we did all the fun things.
You know, the target runAcademy got her restocked with
(03:43):
all the essentials, right.
The target run Academy got herrestocked with all the
essentials, right.
And then we get home and she isso excited because she's got
this vision.
She's going to organize thecloset, she's going to make
sections, she's going to makelabels, like she has goals for
this closet right, of how she'sgoing to organize all of this
stuff.
And so we're starting.
And in my head, and so we'restarting, and in my head I
(04:04):
became very task oriented andshe was very experience oriented
.
And so, you know, in the midstof all of our excitement, she's
like, oh, let me get the labelmaker out and I want to create
this Right.
And I could sense I was gettingirritated.
Like no, no, no, let's, let'sjust not make this into a big
deal, like we just have to getyour new clothes and put them in
(04:26):
your closet.
And you know, and she is likeno, like the label maker, and we
need to order this and I haveto get this and let's do this,
and I could feel myself justgetting more just kind of like
annoyed by the process, right,and I totally hijacked it and I
could see her body language gofrom like excited to just kind
(04:48):
of like oh, like I thought wewere going left and now we're
going right, and I read her bodylanguage and I realized I
hijacked her little you knowidea of having this moment with
me where we were going toreorganize her entire closet.
And excitement, her excitement,her joy.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yes, it's like I've been in those moments and you're
like squelching their littlespirit.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
That's what it felt like to me when I've been in
those moments, and a lot oftimes.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
It's just a practical thing to me too, of like I'm
busy, Like I don't have time.
We're we're going from onething to another too, of like
I'm busy, Like I don't have time, we're going from one thing to
another and instead of justmaking the time for it.
But tell me how you unpack this.
So did you apologize in themoment?
Did you have to think about itfor a day Like what happened
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Well, I definitely filed that away.
So then I tried to, like youknow, shift gears and kind of
own it.
I am so sorry, like I can seethat you know, you are really
excited about this and I'm sofocused on the project and
getting this done and you'remore focused on how fun this is
that me and you get to do thisproject, and so I just basically
(05:58):
owned it and I said can I get aredo?
Can I have a restart?
Can we, can we do this over?
I noticed how you were soexcited.
Right Is what I told mydaughter and I could tell, as I
you know, became task oriented.
Your joy got less and less andless, and so I just simply asked
can we do a redo?
(06:20):
But I had to take ownership ofthat and I called it what it was
.
I just said, you know, to mydaughter I talk a lot about like
me being your safe person,right, and me being the person
that you can come and tellanything to.
I said that's kind of confusingwhen I'm asking to be your safe
person and inviting you in totell me anything, but then yet
(06:42):
sometimes I can move you.
And just a reminder that I'mnot always going to get it right
, but I still desire to be yoursafe person and I still desire
you to come to me when I don'tget it right.
But in this situation I wasvery aware that I didn't get it
right, so I was able to callmyself out.
But I am trying to train mychildren to advocate saying, mom
(07:04):
, like I didn't like how thatmade me feel or I didn't like
how you handled that, and so ina respectful way that they can
advocate and kind of hold meaccountable when there's ways
where I don't get it right.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Man, I think this is gold.
I think because, also, as Ihumbled myself when my kids were
little I'm your age I saw, whenthey got to be older and the
attitude would come out more andstuff, I wouldn't even have to
call it out because they theywould humble themselves because
that I had modeled that for them.
(07:37):
I didn't anticipate that thatwasn't a big old like parenting
thing on my part.
I just felt like God wascalling me to be vulnerable and
then they became vulnerable.
But so I think this is just sohuge, this whole conversation.
But why do you think okay,maybe it was a busy thing you
were busy or you needed to getonto the next thing.
(07:58):
But were there other reasons whyyou think you responded that
way?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Unpack that for us because you're a counselor and I
was going to say, in thecounselor world, there's always
like the root right.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And so I think, as parents, a lot of us grew up in
the generation where you know,if we look back, we say you know
there was food in the fridge.
The lights came on, um, I hadwhat I needed, so one paper.
Our life was somewhat like.
We checked a lot of the boxes,but one of the things that
(08:31):
didn't get checked is emotionalattunement.
So there was a lot of, um,emotional neglect in our
generation, I would say, and Iand I see and hear that a lot.
And this analogy that I use isimagine going to the
refrigerator and every time yougo to the refrigerator you go
and there's no food and you keepgoing back to the refrigerator
(08:53):
and eventually you stop goingbecause you realize the
refrigerator is empty, it can'tmeet this need, and then over
time, like your stomach hurts,it's crawling right, and then
you turn off the hunger cuesbecause you're like, well,
they're just a reminder of anunmet need.
A lot of us grew up withemotionally empty refrigerator
parents, not because they wereintentionally trying to neglect
(09:17):
our emotions, but that's ageneration that was raised by
the great depression, so theirparents were busy, so a lot of
them didn't hear I love you.
And a lot of them they weren'tseen and heard, right.
So then they look at ourgeneration and they're like, but
the lights were on and you hadwhat you needed and you know you
had these experiences right.
(09:38):
But a lot of us felt veryunseen and unheard.
So we just said, well, emotionsare useless.
So we got really busy.
So, on papers, a lot of usbecame high achievers and very
task oriented.
So when our children, like,look at the closet, they have
permission to find joy in thisexperience with their mom.
(10:00):
I, on the other hand, look atthat and I see it as a task.
So I've had to retrain my brain.
Like you know, when we're attarget and we get everything off
the list and one of my girlswants to go look at skincare,
let's just be in the moment.
We don't have to be worried.
Like no, we got everything offthe list.
Let's check out and go like inknowing that, like even joy
(10:21):
sitting in joy, like that's abig deal to them.
Or sometimes, you know, ifsomebody is throwing a fit
because they don't want to gettheir shoes off, we get
irritated Like we got to go justget your shoes on.
It's a task, just do it Right,and so you know.
It could be a tantrum or itcould even just be a joyful
thing where they just want toshop around.
They don't need anything, thelist is done, but just being
(10:45):
present and being in the moment.
And that's what I missed thatday with the closet organization
activity.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I want to take a moment here, because your
analogy of going to the fridgeand it's empty, your needs not
being met yeah, I think thathappens a lot.
It does.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
In good households, Because we kind of just feel
like, well, feelings are uselessthen right.
And we find a way to workthrough our feelings and that
looks like we stay busy.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Well, and we're dismissive.
Yes, we're dismissive too,because what if our child like
to you, the closet organizationwas a big deal to her?
To you closet organization,even on an experience level,
you're like I don't even carewhat my closet looks like I just
didn't get to be there.
Yes, Right, and so hearingwhat's important to her and
(11:34):
being sensitive to that, I thinkso many times we're dismissive
of what's important to them.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Exactly Right, cause we have bigger things going on,
so we just almost get annoyed orirritated when really they're
looking for a moment to connectwith us.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I love the example that you said too, because you
know they'll, they'll confide,and if their needs aren't met or
they're dismissed or you blowup and you're crazy parent mode,
then then there's a resistancethere and, like you said, then
they ignore the hunger cues.
So then what happens is theybecome numb and ignore their
emotions, right, exactly, andthen everything becomes task
(12:12):
oriented, right, like how wegrew up Right.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And then you look on paper and you're like, wow,
you're really a motivated person, no, just a coping mechanism
and I'm stuffing all theemotions down.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Okay, this is so good .
I think this is just so goodfor parents.
But I also want to address Iwant to be devil's advocate here
too, because on the flip sideof this we're saying listen to
our kids more, be in the momentyou know, be in tune to their
feelings all very, veryimportant.
But on the flip side of that Ithink some people say but that
(12:45):
goes to the extreme, and thenthe kids are just dictating
everything by their feelings.
Parents aren't being parents.
There's no boundary, we just gowith whatever the kid wants to
go with.
That's not what we're sayinghere, right, absolutely.
Clarify that because we're apendulum swinging world and I
don't want anybody to hear thatthat's what we're saying.
Even though we're saying listento your kid, be in tune,
(13:07):
understand what's important tothem, we're not saying bow down
to them and they run the show.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
That's not what we're saying A lot of a phrase I use
a lot is just keep it the rightsize Right.
So like, think about acantaloupe.
Don't catastrophize it and makeit into a watermelon.
Don't minimize it and make it agrape.
Maybe it is a grape, then don'tmake it into a cantaloupe, just
keep it the right size right.
Sometimes that everything isgoing to be a conversation, you
know what?
I can tell that you'refrustrated and right now our job
(13:35):
is we need to go, but we cantalk about this later or we can
follow up right.
Sometimes, just naming thefeeling we don't always have
time for everything to be aconversation right.
In a perfect world we would.
I think we have so many, somuch like anxiety around
parenting right now, of justlike all these rules of, like
you know.
I read a quote and said this orthis is how you talk about it.
(13:56):
We're not always going to getit right.
But you have to have peace atthe end of the day, knowing like
you did the best you could withwhat you knew, the kind of day
you had where the season youwere in life.
You really have to be at peacewith how you're navigating this
and you know what I always sayis it's not our job to always
get it right.
You know I love Philippians.
(14:17):
You know one, six and basicallyit's just.
You know until our last breathwe're not going to get it right
and be perfected right.
That's, that's safe for heaven.
But on this side of heaven weare called to grow right and
because of that, when we don'tget it right, part of growth is
knowing how to repair andrecover and that's what I did
(14:38):
with my daughter.
I was in tune to see with herbody language.
I robbed her joy.
I was in tune with myself torecognize what I did in that
moment and that I hijacked it.
And then I repaired andrecovered and I asked for a redo
.
So when I look back at that, itis actually says more about my
healing journey that I was intune enough with myself to
(15:02):
recognize what I was doing and Iwas in tune enough with my
daughter.
And not all situations in mylife look that way, but that is
one where I can see the Lord'sblessing of the work I've done
in my healing and the work he'sdone in my life.
But I think that repair andrecover piece is goal.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I mean that's so important.
That's why we say look in themirror all the time, because we
can't heal or fix or help if wecan't see what's going on in our
, in our own self and dealingwith our own stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
That we need to fix, and we don't even know how to be
in tune enough with our ownemotions, right, because a lot
of us have turned them off.
Yeah, so it's having to stopand really feel.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Well, and what I love about this story parents is
we're saying it's a healthyexperience, this is a healthy
situation, but she still messedup.
And I think that is so hopefuland that makes us not be so
stressed out about parenting allthe time and saying the right
things, because you may say thewrong thing, you may misspeak,
you may give wrong, likewhatever, but like walking in
(16:03):
that vulnerability of I didn'tget that right, like I'm sorry,
man, that is freedom, becausethen it's almost like I don't
have to be a perfect parent.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And you're also modeling reconciliation right,
because forgiveness is, you know, one person can forgive two
people that are forgiving.
Like that's reconciliation andthat's modeling.
It's modeling, ownership, it'smodeling.
Hey, how do we get it right andnot be rug sweepers Like, no,
we're just, we're going to talkabout it and, you know, even if
(16:33):
I would not have caught myselfin the moment, I could have
followed up on that two dayslater.
Hey, this has really been heavyon my heart.
Remember when we were doing thecloset, like this is what I
noticed and I've really justbeen thinking about it and
praying about it.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
I want to apologize, that's okay too, there I can
tell there have been so manytimes in my life where I feel
there have been those momentswhere I've hijacked the moment
and I've sucked the life out ofmy kid and I saw it and I didn't
have the courage to repairright then, and later I would
let it go, I would talk myselfout of it and then later maybe
(17:07):
it was I was listening to apastor or reading a book- and it
would just hit me.
Go back to that moment, go backto your kid.
I mean, sometimes months wouldhave passed and I still did it,
you know, because I think thatsays something to your kid,
especially too if you've donethis like two months ago or
three years ago, you know it's amoment that you, that you still
(17:29):
pops in your mind of I suckedthe life out of them and how I
handled that situation Likeapologize, go back.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And they may say mom, I don't even remember that, but
it's more for your mama heart.
Yeah Right, it's more for yourmama heart.
And when you stand before theLord, you're like.
Okay, lord, like I'm, I'm clearof that Right Like I felt the
conviction, I felt the heaviness.
I was obedient that this wasunreconciled and I don't feel at
peace with that.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, and I know this podcast is really about parent
child relationship and this isso good, but as we're talking
about this, I'm feeling a littleconviction about spouses here
and sucking the life out of themand I think, as a wife, I
sometimes see Matt as likereally strong and he can handle
(18:19):
it, yes, and like it's sad tosay, but almost like my place
where I vent, you know, like hejust he's the holder of all my
stuff sometimes you know what,like God has equipped's the
holder of all my stuff sometimes?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
You know what Like God has equipped men to be that
Right yeah.
But I think sometimes we takeadvantage of it, yes, right, and
we're not discerning of.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Like you know, it's just like a free for all,
because I think, then we shiftit into when we're upset about
how they handled a situation.
We may not say our words ascarefully as we would with our
kid right, Because we're like hecan handle it.
He's big and strong and theprotector, and I'm just going to
tell him you suck Right and,and you see it, you see the the
(19:01):
defeat.
Yes, you know, um, whatever youwant to call it, and I think I
think that's a conviction too.
As wives, we have to bethinking about how we do have
honest conversations with ourhusbands.
Obviously, there's times thatI've had to say to Matt I don't
think we you handled this rightand we talk just like he does
with me, but how I'm presentingit and am I as soft with him and
(19:24):
is careful with his feelings asI am with my son?
And I'm always not Right.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
And I think sometimes too, we can like almost treat
our husbands like IOP, likethey're available 24 hours a day
, and they are, but we never sayhey, I really have to talk to
you about something like that'sbeen bothering me.
Do you have the capacity, right?
We just expect them to beavailable and present, and you
know, and if not, then it's likewe come up with these like well
(19:51):
, if you really love me, youwould want to hear this or be
available.
And it's like it's not that theydon't want to, but even as moms
, sometimes we're like we reallywant to hear from our kids.
It's just the timing it's right.
We just don't have thebandwidth or the capacity to be
(20:13):
as available as we need to beRight, and if it's something
that can wait right, then Ithink to honor, you know, their
timing of saying, hey, I reallywant to hear you, but can we
talk about this tomorrow?
You know?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Well, and I think even what you just said about,
sometimes we create a thoughtprocess in our head of well, if
you love me, you would listen.
And you'd always be availablewe go down to the spiral of why
can't you be like this person'shusband?
Why can't we do that with ourkids too?
Why can't you be that?
Like that kid Right.
That's a dangerous place thatSatan takes us in and it's a
(20:39):
false narrative that we'retelling our mind.
It's not true, most of the time.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I think it goes back to what I was saying.
A lot of us had to detach fromour emotions, right, and become
very task oriented.
We are not even in tune withourselves to recognize like, oh,
I am creating this wholenarrative.
If you're living more in thehere and now, you're going to be
able to recognize when theenemy's coming in, the lies he's
telling us in Ephesians when ittalks about renewing your mind,
(21:05):
right, because we run off ofbeliefs more than reality.
So you'll hear me say that alot, but it is really true.
But it goes back with us beingvery in tune because we're so
task oriented.
It's like, but I want to talkabout it now and I need to get
this off my chest now, right,but emotion is saying, oh, this
is really heavy on me, let mehave a conversation.
(21:25):
And if my husband isn'tavailable, I might feel
disappointed.
But that's mine to work through, right, that's not his fault.
Those are my feelings to sitwith and work through.
It's not his job to always makeme feel great.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I think that's good.
I just we didn't even plan togo to the marriage component,
but as we were talking throughthis, I just kept thinking, man,
you know, we, we do go back andrepair and and, you know, fix
and reset with our kids andwe're soft and we're humble, but
but oftentimes we won't do thatwith our spouse or or like
friends that we butt heads withsame kind of situation here, of
(22:04):
of that you know why did Irespond the way that I did?
Yeah, yeah, and sometimes it'sneeded, I mean boundaries are
good.
I'm not saying boundaries arebad and just like the, the, the
husband not being available, heshouldn't always not be
available.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Obviously, we don't want to go to extremes again but
he can't.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
there may be moments where he's like I can't do this
right now.
I agree, I need a minute.
I agree.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
And you know, I think there's this fear right now
because a lot of us are healingourselves while we're raising
children and we're having toconfront really hard things in
our past or with our parents.
And I don't know if you want tocall it a trend or I don't know
the word that I want to use,but just the no contact.
There's a lot of fear thatparents are like well, are my
children going to be no contactif I don't get it right?
(22:49):
And so I think that there isthis perfectionism that is being
put on parents with theirchildren, where we sometimes put
more pressure on that versuslike our spouse or the friends
in our life, because we justhave this fear that our children
are going to grow up and notwant a relationship with us.
So we have to do so many thingsright.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Well, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.
I mean, this is just my opinionfrom the work that I do.
I think that that is a socialmedia push.
Honestly, it's an online socialmedia.
If your parents don't endorse ahundred percent of everything
you do, cut them out of yourlife.
They're toxic, right?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And it's such an extremist though right.
It's like the word narcissist.
Everyone's a narcissist, but ifsomebody truly is, it's almost
really hard for people who trulyhave somebody like that in
their life or truly have areason to go.
No contact or everyone hastrauma and for somebody who
truly has complex PTSD.
(23:51):
We just have to be careful withall these labels because I
think they're fear mongering andI think that they create all
this comparison and fear.
And I just say that, you know,bringing it back to the kids,
what we were talking about.
I think it creates thisheaviness in parenting because
it creates this fear If we don'tget it right, our kids right.
(24:11):
But that goes back to thataccountability and repair and
recover.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
And the vulnerability , just being honest about things
.
Yes, and honestly too, likelike being in the word of God,
like honestly, the more I, themore I'm in the word of God, the
more humble I become, because Irealize how flawed I am.
Yes, and I think that that isso important in parenting for
(24:37):
that to come through.
Yes, you know I may havehandled that conversation wrong,
I may have lectured you toomuch about that, my opinions may
have gotten the best of me andI said things that weren't
appropriate.
You know, like admitting all ofthat.
Cause we're all guilty ofsomething Right, right.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Messing up and I think, like what you said, like
you're being very specific, Ithink sometimes we joke, like we
make these blanket statementslike oh, I didn't get it right,
I was a hot mess Right.
Like it's this false illusion,Like we're being relatable and
humble, but like really gettinginto the weeds like how did you
really not get it right?
Because you know there there isa lot of generational stuff here
(25:14):
and lots of times, if we justreally understand some of these
heart behind it or where theywere, there's a lot of
compassion there.
But when there's no ownershipor there's really nothing to
really help us understand it,it's really hard.
We, we kind of just feelguarded and protected.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you're right too.
It does.
It does a disservice.
I hate the like just cut peopleout of your life mentality Like
.
I hate it because it's I don'tthink it's really biblical,
honestly, and boundaries aredifferent.
Boundaries are completelydifferent when I'm talking about
but this whole like we can'thave a conversation, so they're
toxic.
So we're done kind of likecalling everybody toxic because
(25:52):
there truly are parents who areabusing their kids.
That is a situation that thereneeds to be no contact Right,
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
And we're we're watering that down because we're
making every situation likethat, and there are real
situations where no contact,like you're always going to have
the hope for reconciliation andthat's not lost on you and that
is biblical Right and there aretimes where there is a time out
, right.
But I think it's really drivinga fear in how parents are
(26:19):
raising their kids.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
So, okay, we got a parent out there.
They're listening to the showand they're like, oh my gosh,
I've hijacked the moment and didsomething horrible either with
my kids and they're like, oh mygosh, I've hijacked the moment
and did something horribleeither with my kids, my spouse,
a close friend, yep, it's thebest piece of advice.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I would say, if you the repair and recover, I just I
think repair and recover takeownership.
I didn't get it right.
Ask for a redo modelreconciliation.
That I think you cannot gowrong with that.
Yeah, I would also like to addI'm just thinking about
situations where I've had to dothis, jamie, because it's
(26:56):
vulnerability too, because I'vehad to do it a lot.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I think, too the apology and the ownership.
Be careful with that as far asit doesn't become an I'm sorry,
but this is why I did that.
Yeah, because then it becomesyou're regurgitating like your
side of what you thought and theapology really just needs to be
like I'm sorry, like I behavedbadly.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Or it's I'm sorry, it's not okay for an adult to
speak to you that way.
Like, just take that ownershipof really like what are we sorry
for?
Because we want to make surethat they understand like I am
sorry, it is not okay for thisto happen because you're very
clear and you're not normalizinganything, yeah, you know.
So I think the more specificyou can be with ownership of
(27:43):
just like I'm sorry, it's notokay for me to speak to you that
way, or I'm sorry, I need towork on being more patient,
right?
That's putting it all on me.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Well, because I think about your daughters the closet
you know.
Let's circle back to that.
You know you could have saidI'm sorry, but I have this X, y
and Z to do and that's why Iwanted to do this.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Then you're actually making them feel bad for wanting
to be creative and yourselffeel better.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
And you're making.
So that's why I say be carefulwith the apology Cause.
So many times we're like I'msorry, but we're defending
ourselves Exactly, and then itmakes the other person still
feel bad and we're not reallyhearing how we hurt them.
And so I do want to put that.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I mean just you can tell I got a life, a lot of life
experience.
Well, I love that I'm tuckingthat way as a mom right.
Because I think that's a reallygood point, mandy, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, and I've been so guilty of that Like I'm sorry
, I responded that way, but Ihad this, this and this going on
, and then it makes them feellike still kind of dismissed and
like it was their fault andit's not their fault.
They're just a kid wanting tohang out with their mom or do
something cool.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Exactly, yeah, learn from all of our mistakes.
We kind of went lots ofdifferent directions, but if you
really see it as a whole, youcan see how there's just so many
layers to all of this.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, yeah, repair, recover and apologize, like just
start out with the apology andit'd be a true, genuine apology
and not trying to argue yourside or defend yourself.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Okay, anything else that youwant?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
to say I can think of Thanks for being here, I this
was.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
There was a lot of layers to this and there always
is when you're doing hard work,but I think this is a really
good show and I know it helpedme.
Yeah, and now I'm thinkingabout things, I have to go
apologize for you know whatwe're just doing?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
the Lord's work and he's working through us, and yes
, yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Well, thanks for being here, thanks for having me
.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Next Talk is a 501c3 nonprofit keeping kids safe
online.
To support our work, make adonation at nexttalkorg.
Next Talk resources are notintended to replace the advice
of a trained healthcare or legalprofessional, or to diagnose,
treat or otherwise render expertadvice regarding any type of
medical, psychological, legal,financial or other problem.
You are advised to consult aqualified expert for your
(30:00):
personal treatment plan.
Welcome to the Next Talk podcast.
We are a nonprofit passionateabout keeping kids safe online.
We're learning together how tonavigate tech, culture and faith
with our kids.
Today we are joined by JamieMarchand she is a licensed
professional counselor who I'veknown for years.
(00:22):
We've worked with.
We met at a Next Talk event.
That's how we met.
I was an attendee, yes, and she.
She came up to me afterwardsand she's like okay, from a
counseling perspective, we gotthat and I was like all right,
you're going to be my student.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
It was just.
The rest is history.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yes, yes, she served on our advisory council for
years.
She's just a mentor, somebodythat I call to for advice
expertise.
She's reviewed sections from mybook with the mental health
stuff and said, okay, yes, thisis good, this is not, and so
she's just been a great resourcefor us at Next Talk.
(00:59):
But, jamie, tell us a littlebit like that's the professional
side.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Tell us a little bit about personal.
Yes, well, I know I've sharedmy history, but I'll just give a
quick refresh.
I started off as an elementaryschool teacher, moved to school
counseling and then, once myhusband and I started our family
with our three little girls, Itransitioned to private practice
and so that has been theprofessional journey and, like I
said, married with three littlegirls.
(01:23):
We have them very close in ageand, you know, we're just in the
throes of it because they'reall elementary, so we're at
fourth, second and kinder, andso, you know, as we are raising
these little girls, we're alsodoing our own work, my husband
and I, in regard to just workingthrough our own stuff.
So there is never a dull momentat our house.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yes.
Thank you for having me.
You're busy and you see kids,you see teenagers, you see
parents.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I mean I've said, I've referred so many people to
your practice and um.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You know, of course we can't talk about any of that
confidential, but I know I'vehad so many people come back to
me and one of the resoundingthings is I didn't know there
were counselors like Jamie.
You know, that is the one thingthat I get a lot Like.
I didn't know there werecounselors like Jamie.
You know, that is the one thingthat I get a lot Like.
I didn't know.
Counselors like her existed.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I think a lot of it is that God has just put so many
different situations in my lifeand it makes me very relatable
and I will not judge, and I havelots of things that keep me
humble.
So I think there's a level ofwhen you're counseling, you have
this idea that the personacross from you has it all
together and I will be the firstto say no, I do not.
So I think that is one thingthat you know.
(02:30):
God has really, just you know,given me this heart to just meet
people where they're at,because I have been on the other
side of it, where I'm the oneon the couch.
You know, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Absolutely Healing from our own personal trauma
experiences.
All of that.
Yeah, I think that's such agood point.
So I asked Jamie to come on theshow today because recently we
were having breakfast and wewere talking about some Next
Talk stuff and she shared thisstory with me about her daughter
and I was like, oh my gosh,Jamie, that's me Like I've done
(03:01):
that.
And so I was like come on thispodcast and I want to start with
the story and then I want tounpack it.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Cause we're titling this episode when you hijack the
moment, right.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
When you hijack the moment.
So so, jamie, what?
What moment did you hijack?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, you know, as I mentioned, I'm a girl mom, right
.
So there is just lots of, youknow, typical girl stuff
happening in my house.
So we go to a uniform school.
So one of my little ones, likewe realized you have no clothes,
like we just live in uniforms,you know.
And so we're like we need to goshopping.
So we did all the fun things.
You know, the target runAcademy got her restocked with
(03:43):
all the essentials, right.
The target run Academy got herrestocked with all the
essentials, right.
And then we get home and she isso excited because she's got
this vision.
She's going to organize thecloset, she's going to make
sections, she's going to makelabels, like she has goals for
this closet right, of how she'sgoing to organize all of this
stuff.
And so we're starting.
And in my head, and so we'restarting, and in my head I
(04:04):
became very task oriented andshe was very experience oriented
.
And so, you know, in the midstof all of our excitement, she's
like, oh, let me get the labelmaker out and I want to create
this Right.
And I could sense I was gettingirritated.
Like no, no, no, let's, let'sjust not make this into a big
deal, like we just have to getyour new clothes and put them in
(04:26):
your closet.
And you know, and she is likeno, like the label maker, and we
need to order this and I haveto get this and let's do this,
and I could feel myself justgetting more just kind of like
annoyed by the process, right,and I totally hijacked it and I
could see her body language gofrom like excited to just kind
(04:48):
of like oh, like I thought wewere going left and now we're
going right, and I read her bodylanguage and I realized I
hijacked her little you knowidea of having this moment with
me where we were going toreorganize her entire closet.
And excitement, her excitement,her joy.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yes, it's like I've been in those moments and you're
like squelching their littlespirit.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
That's what it felt like to me when I've been in
those moments, and a lot oftimes.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
It's just a practical thing to me too, of like I'm
busy, Like I don't have time.
We're we're going from onething to another too, of like
I'm busy, Like I don't have time, we're going from one thing to
another and instead of justmaking the time for it.
But tell me how you unpack this.
So did you apologize in themoment?
Did you have to think about itfor a day Like what happened
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Well, I definitely filed that away.
So then I tried to, like youknow, shift gears and kind of
own it.
I am so sorry, like I can seethat you know, you are really
excited about this and I'm sofocused on the project and
getting this done and you'remore focused on how fun this is
that me and you get to do thisproject, and so I just basically
(05:58):
owned it and I said can I get aredo?
Can I have a restart?
Can we, can we do this over?
I noticed how you were soexcited.
Right Is what I told mydaughter and I could tell, as I
you know, became task oriented.
Your joy got less and less andless, and so I just simply asked
can we do a redo?
(06:20):
But I had to take ownership ofthat and I called it what it was
.
I just said, you know, to mydaughter I talk a lot about like
me being your safe person,right, and me being the person
that you can come and tellanything to.
I said that's kind of confusingwhen I'm asking to be your safe
person and inviting you in totell me anything, but then yet
(06:42):
sometimes I can move you.
And just a reminder that I'mnot always going to get it right
, but I still desire to be yoursafe person and I still desire
you to come to me when I don'tget it right.
But in this situation I wasvery aware that I didn't get it
right, so I was able to callmyself out.
But I am trying to train mychildren to advocate saying, mom
(07:04):
, like I didn't like how thatmade me feel or I didn't like
how you handled that, and so ina respectful way that they can
advocate and kind of hold meaccountable when there's ways
where I don't get it right.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Man, I think this is gold.
I think because, also, as Ihumbled myself when my kids were
little I'm your age I saw, whenthey got to be older and the
attitude would come out more andstuff, I wouldn't even have to
call it out because they theywould humble themselves because
that I had modeled that for them.
(07:37):
I didn't anticipate that thatwasn't a big old like parenting
thing on my part.
I just felt like God wascalling me to be vulnerable and
then they became vulnerable.
But so I think this is just sohuge, this whole conversation.
But why do you think okay,maybe it was a busy thing you
were busy or you needed to getonto the next thing.
(07:58):
But were there other reasons whyyou think you responded that
way?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Unpack that for us because you're a counselor and I
was going to say, in thecounselor world, there's always
like the root right.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And so I think, as parents, a lot of us grew up in
the generation where you know,if we look back, we say you know
there was food in the fridge.
The lights came on, um, I hadwhat I needed, so one paper.
Our life was somewhat like.
We checked a lot of the boxes,but one of the things that
(08:31):
didn't get checked is emotionalattunement.
So there was a lot of, um,emotional neglect in our
generation, I would say, and Iand I see and hear that a lot.
And this analogy that I use isimagine going to the
refrigerator and every time yougo to the refrigerator you go
and there's no food and you keepgoing back to the refrigerator
(08:53):
and eventually you stop goingbecause you realize the
refrigerator is empty, it can'tmeet this need, and then over
time, like your stomach hurts,it's crawling right, and then
you turn off the hunger cuesbecause you're like, well,
they're just a reminder of anunmet need.
A lot of us grew up withemotionally empty refrigerator
parents, not because they wereintentionally trying to neglect
(09:17):
our emotions, but that's ageneration that was raised by
the great depression, so theirparents were busy, so a lot of
them didn't hear I love you.
And a lot of them they weren'tseen and heard, right.
So then they look at ourgeneration and they're like, but
the lights were on and you hadwhat you needed and you know you
had these experiences right.
(09:38):
But a lot of us felt veryunseen and unheard.
So we just said, well, emotionsare useless.
So we got really busy.
So, on papers, a lot of usbecame high achievers and very
task oriented.
So when our children, like,look at the closet, they have
permission to find joy in thisexperience with their mom.
(10:00):
I, on the other hand, look atthat and I see it as a task.
So I've had to retrain my brain.
Like you know, when we're attarget and we get everything off
the list and one of my girlswants to go look at skincare,
let's just be in the moment.
We don't have to be worried.
Like no, we got everything offthe list.
Let's check out and go like inknowing that, like even joy
(10:21):
sitting in joy, like that's abig deal to them.
Or sometimes, you know, ifsomebody is throwing a fit
because they don't want to gettheir shoes off, we get
irritated Like we got to go justget your shoes on.
It's a task, just do it Right,and so you know.
It could be a tantrum or itcould even just be a joyful
thing where they just want toshop around.
They don't need anything, thelist is done, but just being
(10:45):
present and being in the moment.
And that's what I missed thatday with the closet organization
activity.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I want to take a moment here, because your
analogy of going to the fridgeand it's empty, your needs not
being met yeah, I think thathappens a lot.
It does.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
In good households, Because we kind of just feel
like, well, feelings are uselessthen right.
And we find a way to workthrough our feelings and that
looks like we stay busy.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Well, and we're dismissive.
Yes, we're dismissive too,because what if our child like
to you, the closet organizationwas a big deal to her?
To you closet organization,even on an experience level,
you're like I don't even carewhat my closet looks like I just
didn't get to be there.
Yes, Right, and so hearingwhat's important to her and
(11:34):
being sensitive to that, I thinkso many times we're dismissive
of what's important to them.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Exactly Right, cause we have bigger things going on,
so we just almost get annoyed orirritated when really they're
looking for a moment to connectwith us.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I love the example that you said too, because you
know they'll, they'll confide,and if their needs aren't met or
they're dismissed or you blowup and you're crazy parent mode,
then then there's a resistancethere and, like you said, then
they ignore the hunger cues.
So then what happens is theybecome numb and ignore their
emotions, right, exactly, andthen everything becomes task
(12:12):
oriented, right, like how wegrew up Right.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And then you look on paper and you're like, wow,
you're really a motivated person, no, just a coping mechanism
and I'm stuffing all theemotions down.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Okay, this is so good .
I think this is just so goodfor parents.
But I also want to address Iwant to be devil's advocate here
too, because on the flip sideof this we're saying listen to
our kids more, be in the momentyou know, be in tune to their
feelings all very, veryimportant.
But on the flip side of that Ithink some people say but that
(12:45):
goes to the extreme, and thenthe kids are just dictating
everything by their feelings.
Parents aren't being parents.
There's no boundary, we just gowith whatever the kid wants to
go with.
That's not what we're sayinghere, right, absolutely.
Clarify that because we're apendulum swinging world and I
don't want anybody to hear thatthat's what we're saying.
Even though we're saying listento your kid, be in tune,
(13:07):
understand what's important tothem, we're not saying bow down
to them and they run the show.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
That's not what we're saying A lot of a phrase I use
a lot is just keep it the rightsize Right.
So like, think about acantaloupe.
Don't catastrophize it and makeit into a watermelon.
Don't minimize it and make it agrape.
Maybe it is a grape, then don'tmake it into a cantaloupe, just
keep it the right size right.
Sometimes that everything isgoing to be a conversation, you
know what?
I can tell that you'refrustrated and right now our job
(13:35):
is we need to go, but we cantalk about this later or we can
follow up right.
Sometimes, just naming thefeeling we don't always have
time for everything to be aconversation right.
In a perfect world we would.
I think we have so many, somuch like anxiety around
parenting right now, of justlike all these rules of, like
you know.
I read a quote and said this orthis is how you talk about it.
(13:56):
We're not always going to getit right.
But you have to have peace atthe end of the day, knowing like
you did the best you could withwhat you knew, the kind of day
you had where the season youwere in life.
You really have to be at peacewith how you're navigating this
and you know what I always sayis it's not our job to always
get it right.
You know I love Philippians.
(14:17):
You know one, six and basicallyit's just.
You know until our last breathwe're not going to get it right
and be perfected right.
That's, that's safe for heaven.
But on this side of heaven weare called to grow right and
because of that, when we don'tget it right, part of growth is
knowing how to repair andrecover and that's what I did
(14:38):
with my daughter.
I was in tune to see with herbody language.
I robbed her joy.
I was in tune with myself torecognize what I did in that
moment and that I hijacked it.
And then I repaired andrecovered and I asked for a redo
.
So when I look back at that, itis actually says more about my
healing journey that I was intune enough with myself to
(15:02):
recognize what I was doing and Iwas in tune enough with my
daughter.
And not all situations in mylife look that way, but that is
one where I can see the Lord'sblessing of the work I've done
in my healing and the work he'sdone in my life.
But I think that repair andrecover piece is goal.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I mean that's so important.
That's why we say look in themirror all the time, because we
can't heal or fix or help if wecan't see what's going on in our
, in our own self and dealingwith our own stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
That we need to fix, and we don't even know how to be
in tune enough with our ownemotions, right, because a lot
of us have turned them off.
Yeah, so it's having to stopand really feel.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Well, and what I love about this story parents is
we're saying it's a healthyexperience, this is a healthy
situation, but she still messedup.
And I think that is so hopefuland that makes us not be so
stressed out about parenting allthe time and saying the right
things, because you may say thewrong thing, you may misspeak,
you may give wrong, likewhatever, but like walking in
(16:03):
that vulnerability of I didn'tget that right, like I'm sorry,
man, that is freedom, becausethen it's almost like I don't
have to be a perfect parent.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And you're also modeling reconciliation right,
because forgiveness is, you know, one person can forgive two
people that are forgiving.
Like that's reconciliation andthat's modeling.
It's modeling, ownership, it'smodeling.
Hey, how do we get it right andnot be rug sweepers Like, no,
we're just, we're going to talkabout it and, you know, even if
(16:33):
I would not have caught myselfin the moment, I could have
followed up on that two dayslater.
Hey, this has really been heavyon my heart.
Remember when we were doing thecloset, like this is what I
noticed and I've really justbeen thinking about it and
praying about it.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
I want to apologize, that's okay too, there I can
tell there have been so manytimes in my life where I feel
there have been those momentswhere I've hijacked the moment
and I've sucked the life out ofmy kid and I saw it and I didn't
have the courage to repairright then, and later I would
let it go, I would talk myselfout of it and then later maybe
(17:07):
it was I was listening to apastor or reading a book- and it
would just hit me.
Go back to that moment, go backto your kid.
I mean, sometimes months wouldhave passed and I still did it,
you know, because I think thatsays something to your kid,
especially too if you've donethis like two months ago or
three years ago, you know it's amoment that you, that you still
(17:29):
pops in your mind of I suckedthe life out of them and how I
handled that situation Likeapologize, go back.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And they may say mom, I don't even remember that, but
it's more for your mama heart.
Yeah Right, it's more for yourmama heart.
And when you stand before theLord, you're like.
Okay, lord, like I'm, I'm clearof that Right Like I felt the
conviction, I felt the heaviness.
I was obedient that this wasunreconciled and I don't feel at
peace with that.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, and I know this podcast is really about parent
child relationship and this isso good, but as we're talking
about this, I'm feeling a littleconviction about spouses here
and sucking the life out of themand I think, as a wife, I
sometimes see Matt as likereally strong and he can handle
(18:19):
it, yes, and like it's sad tosay, but almost like my place
where I vent, you know, like hejust he's the holder of all my
stuff sometimes you know what,like God has equipped's the
holder of all my stuff sometimes?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
You know what Like God has equipped men to be that
Right yeah.
But I think sometimes we takeadvantage of it, yes, right, and
we're not discerning of.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Like you know, it's just like a free for all,
because I think, then we shiftit into when we're upset about
how they handled a situation.
We may not say our words ascarefully as we would with our
kid right, Because we're like hecan handle it.
He's big and strong and theprotector, and I'm just going to
tell him you suck Right and,and you see it, you see the the
(19:01):
defeat.
Yes, you know, um, whatever youwant to call it, and I think I
think that's a conviction too.
As wives, we have to bethinking about how we do have
honest conversations with ourhusbands.
Obviously, there's times thatI've had to say to Matt I don't
think we you handled this rightand we talk just like he does
with me, but how I'm presentingit and am I as soft with him and
(19:24):
is careful with his feelings asI am with my son?
And I'm always not Right.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
And I think sometimes too, we can like almost treat
our husbands like IOP, likethey're available 24 hours a day
, and they are, but we never sayhey, I really have to talk to
you about something like that'sbeen bothering me.
Do you have the capacity, right?
We just expect them to beavailable and present, and you
know, and if not, then it's likewe come up with these like well
(19:51):
, if you really love me, youwould want to hear this or be
available.
And it's like it's not that theydon't want to, but even as moms
, sometimes we're like we reallywant to hear from our kids.
It's just the timing it's right.
We just don't have thebandwidth or the capacity to be
(20:13):
as available as we need to beRight, and if it's something
that can wait right, then Ithink to honor, you know, their
timing of saying, hey, I reallywant to hear you, but can we
talk about this tomorrow?
You know?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Well, and I think even what you just said about,
sometimes we create a thoughtprocess in our head of well, if
you love me, you would listen.
And you'd always be availablewe go down to the spiral of why
can't you be like this person'shusband?
Why can't we do that with ourkids too?
Why can't you be that?
Like that kid Right.
That's a dangerous place thatSatan takes us in and it's a
(20:39):
false narrative that we'retelling our mind.
It's not true, most of the time.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I think it goes back to what I was saying.
A lot of us had to detach fromour emotions, right, and become
very task oriented.
We are not even in tune withourselves to recognize like, oh,
I am creating this wholenarrative.
If you're living more in thehere and now, you're going to be
able to recognize when theenemy's coming in, the lies he's
telling us in Ephesians when ittalks about renewing your mind,
(21:05):
right, because we run off ofbeliefs more than reality.
So you'll hear me say that alot, but it is really true.
But it goes back with us beingvery in tune because we're so
task oriented.
It's like, but I want to talkabout it now and I need to get
this off my chest now, right,but emotion is saying, oh, this
is really heavy on me, let mehave a conversation.
(21:25):
And if my husband isn'tavailable, I might feel
disappointed.
But that's mine to work through, right, that's not his fault.
Those are my feelings to sitwith and work through.
It's not his job to always makeme feel great.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I think that's good.
I just we didn't even plan togo to the marriage component,
but as we were talking throughthis, I just kept thinking, man,
you know, we, we do go back andrepair and and, you know, fix
and reset with our kids andwe're soft and we're humble, but
but oftentimes we won't do thatwith our spouse or or like
friends that we butt heads withsame kind of situation here, of
(22:04):
of that you know why did Irespond the way that I did?
Yeah, yeah, and sometimes it'sneeded, I mean boundaries are
good.
I'm not saying boundaries arebad and just like the, the, the
husband not being available, heshouldn't always not be
available.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Obviously, we don't want to go to extremes again but
he can't.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
there may be moments where he's like I can't do this
right now.
I agree, I need a minute.
I agree.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
And you know, I think there's this fear right now
because a lot of us are healingourselves while we're raising
children and we're having toconfront really hard things in
our past or with our parents.
And I don't know if you want tocall it a trend or I don't know
the word that I want to use,but just the no contact.
There's a lot of fear thatparents are like well, are my
children going to be no contactif I don't get it right?
(22:49):
And so I think that there isthis perfectionism that is being
put on parents with theirchildren, where we sometimes put
more pressure on that versuslike our spouse or the friends
in our life, because we justhave this fear that our children
are going to grow up and notwant a relationship with us.
So we have to do so many thingsright.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Well, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.
I mean, this is just my opinionfrom the work that I do.
I think that that is a socialmedia push.
Honestly, it's an online socialmedia.
If your parents don't endorse ahundred percent of everything
you do, cut them out of yourlife.
They're toxic, right?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And it's such an extremist though right.
It's like the word narcissist.
Everyone's a narcissist, but ifsomebody truly is, it's almost
really hard for people who trulyhave somebody like that in
their life or truly have areason to go.
No contact or everyone hastrauma and for somebody who
truly has complex PTSD.
(23:51):
We just have to be careful withall these labels because I
think they're fear mongering andI think that they create all
this comparison and fear.
And I just say that, you know,bringing it back to the kids,
what we were talking about.
I think it creates thisheaviness in parenting because
it creates this fear If we don'tget it right, our kids right.
(24:11):
But that goes back to thataccountability and repair and
recover.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
And the vulnerability , just being honest about things
.
Yes, and honestly too, likelike being in the word of God,
like honestly, the more I, themore I'm in the word of God, the
more humble I become, because Irealize how flawed I am.
Yes, and I think that that isso important in parenting for
(24:37):
that to come through.
Yes, you know I may havehandled that conversation wrong,
I may have lectured you toomuch about that, my opinions may
have gotten the best of me andI said things that weren't
appropriate.
You know, like admitting all ofthat.
Cause we're all guilty ofsomething Right, right.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Messing up and I think, like what you said, like
you're being very specific, Ithink sometimes we joke, like we
make these blanket statementslike oh, I didn't get it right,
I was a hot mess Right.
Like it's this false illusion,Like we're being relatable and
humble, but like really gettinginto the weeds like how did you
really not get it right?
Because you know there there isa lot of generational stuff here
(25:14):
and lots of times, if we justreally understand some of these
heart behind it or where theywere, there's a lot of
compassion there.
But when there's no ownershipor there's really nothing to
really help us understand it,it's really hard.
We, we kind of just feelguarded and protected.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you're right too.
It does.
It does a disservice.
I hate the like just cut peopleout of your life mentality Like
.
I hate it because it's I don'tthink it's really biblical,
honestly, and boundaries aredifferent.
Boundaries are completelydifferent when I'm talking about
but this whole like we can'thave a conversation, so they're
toxic.
So we're done kind of likecalling everybody toxic because
(25:52):
there truly are parents who areabusing their kids.
That is a situation that thereneeds to be no contact Right,
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
And we're we're watering that down because we're
making every situation likethat, and there are real
situations where no contact,like you're always going to have
the hope for reconciliation andthat's not lost on you and that
is biblical Right and there aretimes where there is a time out
, right.
But I think it's really drivinga fear in how parents are
(26:19):
raising their kids.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
So, okay, we got a parent out there.
They're listening to the showand they're like, oh my gosh,
I've hijacked the moment and didsomething horrible either with
my kids and they're like, oh mygosh, I've hijacked the moment
and did something horribleeither with my kids, my spouse,
a close friend, yep, it's thebest piece of advice.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I would say, if you the repair and recover, I just I
think repair and recover takeownership.
I didn't get it right.
Ask for a redo modelreconciliation.
That I think you cannot gowrong with that.
Yeah, I would also like to addI'm just thinking about
situations where I've had to dothis, jamie, because it's
(26:56):
vulnerability too, because I'vehad to do it a lot.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I think, too the apology and the ownership.
Be careful with that as far asit doesn't become an I'm sorry,
but this is why I did that.
Yeah, because then it becomesyou're regurgitating like your
side of what you thought and theapology really just needs to be
like I'm sorry, like I behavedbadly.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Or it's I'm sorry, it's not okay for an adult to
speak to you that way.
Like, just take that ownershipof really like what are we sorry
for?
Because we want to make surethat they understand like I am
sorry, it is not okay for thisto happen because you're very
clear and you're not normalizinganything, yeah, you know.
So I think the more specificyou can be with ownership of
(27:43):
just like I'm sorry, it's notokay for me to speak to you that
way, or I'm sorry, I need towork on being more patient,
right?
That's putting it all on me.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Well, because I think about your daughters the closet
you know.
Let's circle back to that.
You know you could have saidI'm sorry, but I have this X, y
and Z to do and that's why Iwanted to do this.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Then you're actually making them feel bad for wanting
to be creative and yourselffeel better.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
And you're making.
So that's why I say be carefulwith the apology Cause.
So many times we're like I'msorry, but we're defending
ourselves Exactly, and then itmakes the other person still
feel bad and we're not reallyhearing how we hurt them.
And so I do want to put that.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I mean just you can tell I got a life, a lot of life
experience.
Well, I love that I'm tuckingthat way as a mom right.
Because I think that's a reallygood point, mandy, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, and I've been so guilty of that Like I'm sorry
, I responded that way, but Ihad this, this and this going on
, and then it makes them feellike still kind of dismissed and
like it was their fault andit's not their fault.
They're just a kid wanting tohang out with their mom or do
something cool.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Exactly, yeah, learn from all of our mistakes.
We kind of went lots ofdifferent directions, but if you
really see it as a whole, youcan see how there's just so many
layers to all of this.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, yeah, repair, recover and apologize, like just
start out with the apology andit'd be a true, genuine apology
and not trying to argue yourside or defend yourself.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Okay, anything else that youwant?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
to say I can think of Thanks for being here, I this
was.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
There was a lot of layers to this and there always
is when you're doing hard work,but I think this is a really
good show and I know it helpedme.
Yeah, and now I'm thinkingabout things, I have to go
apologize for you know whatwe're just doing?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
the Lord's work and he's working through us, and yes
, yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Well, thanks for being here, thanks for having me
.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Next Talk is a 501c3 nonprofit keeping kids safe
online.
To support our work, make adonation at nexttalkorg.
Next Talk resources are notintended to replace the advice
of a trained healthcare or legalprofessional, or to diagnose,
treat or otherwise render expertadvice regarding any type of
medical, psychological, legal,financial or other problem.
You are advised to consult aqualified expert for your
(30:00):
personal treatment plan.
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