October 17, 2024 • 28 mins
In this episode of NIC Chats, recorded live at the NIC Fall Conference in Washington DC, host Lisa McCracken interviews ProCare HR’s Brett Landrum, founder and co-CEO, and Paul Jarvis, head of sales and marketing. The conversation explores ProCare's evolution from a foundational HR services provider to a data-driven solutions company for HR in the senior care industry. Landrum and Jarvis discuss the transformative role of data analytics in workforce management, highlighting the importance of actionable data in improving operational efficiency and financial performance
The podcast delves into the complexities of scheduling in senior care facilities and how ProCare's integrated approach combines technology, data analytics, and expert coaching to optimize workforce management and reduce labor costs. Hear how ProCare helped a large skilled nursing facility significantly reduce labor costs and improve efficiency, plus advice for organizations just starting their data analytics journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa McCracken (00:03):
Well, hello everyone. Thank you for joining
us at the NIC Chats podcast. Weare live from Washington DC at
the NIC Fall Conference. Veryexcited to be with you here
today. You can see the energybehind us, and I'm triple
excited 'cause this is athree-peat. For those of you
who don't know, we have ProCareHR, Brett Landrum with us,
(00:24):
their CEO and founder. And thisis the third time that we have
been together for this. I thinkyou're just back 'cause you
like the headsets.
Brett Landrum (00:32):
That's right.
Good company.
Lisa McCracken (00:34):
That's right.
The conversation's gonna begreat. The headsets look
awesome. So we're gonna havesome really engaging
conversation today. So, beforewe dive into the conversation,
I'm gonna ask the two of you tointroduce yourselves, 'cause
Brett, you've got a colleaguehere with you. Tell us a little
about ProCare HR and yourrespective roles in the
organization. Brett, we'llstart with you.
Brett Landrum (00:56):
So my name's Brett Landrum, I'm the founder
and co-CEO of ProCare. Really,at a high level, when we talk
about ProCare, I like to startwith the vision. The investment
thesis and vision for ourbusiness is that people and
people-related functions, andreally enhancing the outcomes
we can drive in those areas,can translate to outsized
impact on the business outcomesour clients are trying to
(01:17):
drive, which are quality ofcare, resident satisfaction,
financial performance, and thecapability to grow and scale.
Everything we do is about howdo we build a model that can
produce superior HR outcomes,and how can we quantify how
those superior HR outcomestranslate to the drivers of our
client's success? And how weposition ourselves in the
(01:48):
market is we have afoundational HR services layer.
We're providing comprehensiveHR services, every area of HR
really optimized for seniorcare. On top of that, we have
developed some unique solutionsaround labor and optimizing
labor expense and controls insenior care. And then, as we're
talking about today with Pauland his business partner Henry,
we've recently made anacquisition of Claret to build
(02:11):
a data muscle around everythingwe do.
Lisa McCracken (02:23):
And we're gonna talk about that a little bit.
And I should know the answer tothis, but I don't, so I'm gonna
ask, are you guys solely seniorliving?
Brett Landrum (02:30):
So we are about 90% senior care. About 90%
senior care and then 10%disability services. And
there's a little bit ofcrossover when you get into
dementia or different stateswhere you might have behavioral
health and senior care in aparticular community together.
But it's all, I'd say, seniorcare and a little bit of
disability services.
Lisa McCracken (02:52):
Okay. I knew you were quite specialized in
senior care, but I wasn't sureif there was some carryover to
others. Alright, Paul, we'vegot a new guest this time.
Introduce yourself.
Paul Jarvis (03:02):
Thank you. Happy to be here. I'm Paul Jarvis.
I'm responsible for sales andmarketing at ProCare. I joined
the organization in May of thisyear via the acquisition of a
company I had started calledClaret. We did business
intelligence for senior livingowners and operators. We pulled
together financial andoperational data, payroll, CRM,
chart of accounts, rent roll,and brought it into integrated
(03:24):
systems and dashboards foranalytics. When Brett
approached me about potentiallyworking together, HR is the
largest expense item. What Ihad found from talking to
operators and owners was it wasalso the place where they felt
they had the least ability, thefewest levers into their
business, and the highestdegree of complexity. So it was
an opportunity to take thetechnology we had developed and
(03:46):
marry it to the expertise andservice muscle at ProCare, like
the people, the relationshipswith clients. So it was a
really cool partnership. I'vereally enjoyed being part of
the organization since May.
Lisa McCracken (04:01):
So when we chatted in advance of this a
little bit, I was reflectingback on a year ago when we were
sitting in Chicago doing thispodcast. I remember asking you,
I don't know if you rememberthis, so I'm gonna remind you,
asking you about the role ofdata and analytics as it
relates to labor and workforcemanagement and so forth. And
you said then, we have a visionfor growing that, and we
(04:22):
realize the importance andvalue of that data analytics.
And I observe we're here andyou've done it. So do you want
to reflect back on connectingthe dots of one year ago,
saying, yeah, we're gonnacommit to that, and now you
have? And I think probablypartly, and largely due to this
partnership and acquisition,it's pretty cool.
Brett Landrum (04:44):
Yeah. It's really surreal. I mean, you
look at ProCare, it's beenaround for 10 years, and if you
would've told me we were gonnabe doing what we're doing today
eight years ago, I would'vethought you were crazy. And so
it's really, you know, there'sa Jim Collins principle that
there's no big winning move.
There's not one thing where youjust look back and think, oh, I
(05:05):
made this really excellentdecision, and the business
suddenly transformed. Thetransformation is really a
series of intentional actionsand hard work over a long
period of time. And then all ofa sudden you look back and
you're like, whoa, this iswhere we're at, and we're doing
some really interesting andexciting things. And I think
(05:31):
last year was a big year for usin getting really clear and
focused on what the vision forProCare is and the impact we
want to have on the market.
ProCare's really, I alwaysdescribe us as a mission-based
growth company. Growth is theconduit to being able to drive
the change in the industry thatwe believe can be really
impactful. And last year, wegot really clear on that vision
of how we're going to do it: getting really good at data and (05:50):
undefined
using data as the way toconvince the market that people
functions are not justimportant, but critical to do
well. And then, number two,providing the insight on where
to resource both financiallyand with sweat equity into
those people functions to drivethe business outcomes we're
looking for. As we got clear onthat last year, data was a big
part of it. What I didn'tappreciate at the time is that,
(06:12):
in our organization, we hadabsolutely no technical
expertise in data.
Paul Jarvis (06:35):
.
Brett Landrum (06:36):
And so we created this really grandiose
vision of, hey, we're gonnabuild this data platform, we're
gonna be wildly successful, andit's gonna drive all these
great results for our clientsin the marketplace. We got into
Q1 and we're like, we have noclue how to actually do this.
We're in trouble. I wasfortunate enough that we have
really great customers, and oneof our larger clients, who was
actually a client of Claret,was giving me some ideas and
(06:58):
advice and said, you reallyshould talk to Claret. And that
was how it all came about.
Lisa McCracken (07:14):
Yeah. Well, you know, so much of success, and
with any leaders, is throughthose partnerships and
recognizing where we can fillin the gaps. And having a
partner who does know the data,I think, for your clients is
tremendous because it can beincredibly daunting and
overwhelming. And I wanna talkabout that a little bit. So you
had shared that you have about20,000 customer employees?
Brett Landrum (07:36):
We're probably sitting around 20, 22, 24.
Lisa McCracken (07:40):
Wow. Okay. So that's significant. And as
somebody who's a researcher,and I like numbers too, that's
a wealth of data andinformation. So can you share
some perspective on what's mostvaluable about that data pull,
and how do you use it? What doyou see as some of the key
pieces to pull out of that?
Paul Jarvis (08:00):
Yeah. My experience has been, there's a
couple of ways that peoplealways want to use data. One of
them is essentially, am I doinga good job? And that's a
combination of benchmarks,trends, industry averages. Are
you hitting your targetsconsistently? So that's one
category. The other piece isreally around operational
improvement. And I think thereare certain areas in this
business, scheduling is a greatexample where the rubber meets
(08:22):
the road. Same thing withtalent acquisition. These are
high-volume, day-to-day taskswhere if you look at it on a
dashboard, you say, okay,that's my schedule, that's my
hiring pipeline. But how areyou actually using that
information? It doesn't reallyhelp you to say, oh, here's my
agency spend. What you want tosay is, where do I want that
number to be? If I want thisone to go down, what are the
(08:46):
levers I have available? And soI think that has been the
mindset shift we've beenworking on. I had a mentor
where I started my career atPalantir, which was a little
startup then. It's now in theSB 500, a big data analytics
company. But he would alwayssay, you never have a dashboard
without a decision. And I thinkthe trap a lot of software and
companies fall into is you havea really shiny dashboard, but
what do you do with it? So,operationalizing that data,
(09:08):
particularly in thesehigh-transaction areas where
the money goes out the door, orwhere decisions get made around
recruiting and scheduling,those are the biggest
opportunities.
Lisa McCracken (09:23):
Yeah. There are a lot of empty dashboards out
there that serve the purpose ofa monthly report or informing a
weekly update, whatever itmight be, but it stops there.
Paul Jarvis (09:33):
Exactly.
Lisa McCracken (09:34):
You mentioned the scheduling piece. The
organization has made a veryspecific commitment to being a
partner on that front. So framethe problem you're trying to
solve there. What are ourchallenges on the scheduling
side of things, if you were toboil it down to some key
issues?
Paul Jarvis (09:53):
Do you wanna take this?
Brett Landrum (09:55):
Scheduling in senior care is so complex. The
reason it's so complex is,number one, you're dealing with
human beings who areunpredictable and sometimes
unreliable. You've got adynamic and fast-changing need
to meet. Our census changes,our acuity changes frequently,
our pay by employee can changeon a regular basis, and
(10:18):
employee status changes quitefrequently. Actually getting
the schedule right takestriangulating a number of
different variables all at oncein order to get the schedule
right for the future. And nowhere's the real challenge: that
changes every single day.
Lisa McCracken (10:45):
Within the day
Brett Landrum (10:46):
365, 24/7. It's constantly changing. And we're
asking schedulers who typicallydon't have real analytical
training to come in and computea number of different variables
all day, every single day. Thatis going to control a large
part of our financial success.
So really, the problem comesdown to a complex environment,
(11:07):
a lack of skills and trainingto meet the needs of the job,
often a lack of dataavailability, and then
resourcing it from having thefocus and discipline to drive
it day in and day out. We talkabout labor as the tree you
never cut down. It's neverdone. As soon as you take your
eye off the ball, as soon asyou lose discipline or focus,
(11:29):
you see a pop in overtime oragency, or shift bonuses,
whatever it might be, or yourHPRD goes up. It's just a
really hard area to beconsistently good at.
Lisa McCracken (12:00):
How much are you dependent on that
scheduler? I mean, it's notlike people come in with a
bachelor's degree inscheduling, and candidly, it's
probably not the sexiest job. Iwould suspect that when a
scheduler leaves, it's like abit of a starting over point.
Yes.
Brett Landrum (12:16):
It's arguably the hardest job in senior
living. You're constantly goingafter employees, trying to beg,
borrow, and steal to get shiftsfilled. In a number of
scenarios, the scheduler is thebackup if a shift can't get
filled. And you're dealing withpeople's lives. It's not like,
oh, we're just going to havethis particular checkout lane
closed. It's, hey, if I can'tfill the shift, we could have a
real health problem.
Lisa McCracken (12:44):
Right. So where does your platform help
mitigate some of that? Whereare the solutions coming into
play?
Paul Jarvis (12:51):
Sure. I can't give away all the secret sauce, but
we'll go through it.
Lisa McCracken (12:56):
Just wet the whistle a little bit.
Paul Jarvis (12:57):
Exactly. So essentially what we do is take
data from two places (13:00):
the payroll system and the
scheduling system. We bring itinto a proprietary data
analytics engine that we'vebuilt, which looks at the
leading drivers of labor cost.
Things like how far ahead areyou able to build a complete
schedule, or what percentage ofyour employees have not used
all their regularly availablehours before you start getting
into overtime. Some of thoseare more predictive than
(13:21):
others, but essentially youlook at the largest drivers
first. Then we have a group ofpeople on staff with deep
operating expertise, whetherit's building schedules or, for
example, one guy was the CRO ata large organization. They
provide expert coaching andsupport back to the
organization. So it's thecombination of using a good
scheduling software, looking atthe right pieces of data, and
providing coaching on a veryregular and timely basis that
(13:44):
creates the flywheel. We havethe inputs, the analytics, and
the follow-up.
Lisa McCracken (14:00):
Yeah. I love that integrated model because I
think there are some solutionsand platforms out there that
just end with, here's our plugand play. But that coaching
piece and that onsite piece iscritical to where the rubber
hits the road and making thingsmove the needle. Do you have
any move-the-needle stories oruse cases you want to share?
Because at the end of the day,it's about improving
(14:21):
operational efficiencies,improving the employees.
There's all those things youtalked about in the beginning,
but you're doing it right.
There's some cost savings inthere because it's a big cost
strain if you got thescheduling wrong and messed up.
So talk to me a little bitabout some of the successes
you've had.
Brett Landrum (14:42):
We have a really fantastic partner, a client of
ours. They have a number ofdifferent communities, and they
have a very large skilledfacility, about 380 beds. It's
a great community with a long,storied history, but it's got a
ton of complexity. They broughtus in to be their HR partner,
and we've developed a fantasticworking relationship with them,
(15:04):
which is part of the reason wewere able to get to the
results. With that particularorganization, in about 45 days,
we took them from a 4.2 HPRD toa 3.6. We eliminated just under
$120,000 per payroll from theirlabor cost. That wasn't agency;
it was overtime, overstaffing,shift bonuses, clock creep,
etc. So it was about $3 milliona year we carved out.
Lisa McCracken (15:49):
That's not jump change
Brett Landrum (15:50):
No, and I'll say, we can do all of the right
work, but to thisorganization's credit, they're
a fantastic partner. The typeof organization that will call
and say, "Hey, what do you needto drive the outcomes?" We give
them a barrier, and they removethe barrier. They look at us as
a member of their executiveteam, as part of their
(16:11):
organization, and it's allowedus to collectively drive really
fantastic results.
Lisa McCracken (16:22):
And I want you to elaborate on that to the
extent you have some additionalthoughts. What makes a
fantastic partner? Because,again, you guys can do your
part, but there's stilldependency on those boots on
the ground and those folks inthe community. So what makes an
ideal partner?
Brett Landrum (16:38):
I think anytime you're outsourcing or choosing
an HR partner versus having anin-house solution, it's a big
cultural shift, and that's hardto overcome. So having
executive buy-in across theentire executive team to say,
we're committed to this, andthis isn't an option, and this
isn't a trial run, ProCare isour partner. ProCare is part of
(17:00):
our team. We're gonna lookafter them, and we're gonna be
invested in their success justlike they're invested in ours.
From a philosophicalperspective, there's gotta be a
degree of comfort and buy-inthat we're getting married and
staying married, so we need tofigure out how to work this out
together. Then, on a moreoperational level, it's having
the connectivity and workingrelationship where we can call
and say, here's a barrier wehave with a particular leader
(17:20):
on your team. Here's what we'reobserving. We really need
support on removing thisbarrier or overcoming it so
that we can drive a particularoutcome. This particular
organization, we met with themevery single day for 90 days,
(17:44):
just on labor. Their head ofoperations was on that call
every single day for 90 days.
The messaging to her team was,this is important. This is a
priority. We have a high degreeof trust in ProCare. The last
aspect is a level ofvulnerability and trust.
They're willing to come to usduring these discussions and
(18:04):
say, I'm not sure what to dohere. What do you think? And
then the trust and willingnessto have that back-and-forth
dialogue and problem-solve withus, using the collective
intelligence we've amassed overthe last 10 years. Bringing in
a great team, great people, andexperts, that's available to
all of our clients. By andlarge, our clients are great
about being open to tappinginto that.
Lisa McCracken (18:44):
Do most realize they have a problem? I mean,
workforce obviously, it's notlike everybody's saying, oh,
it's going great and there's aselect few that are struggling.
But do you think theynecessarily have that insight
into where the problem areasreally are?
Brett Landrum (18:59):
Yeah. I ,
Lisa McCracken (19:00):
Because I perceive that sometimes there's
just this paralysis. Like, wedon't know where to start.
We've got challenges. We knowwhat our payroll looks like, we
know what our turnover lookslike, and we're scheduling on
paper and pencil. I'm justcurious.
Brett Landrum (19:13):
It's like there's a perpetual staffing
shortage nationwide. Soeverybody knows we have
challenges with staffing. Froma labor perspective, all the
operators we interface with arelooking at overtime and agency
use. They're looking at all ofthe key financial drivers
within labor on a regularbasis. I don't know that they
always have the data they needto say, we see what the problem
(19:37):
is, but what are the inputsinto the problem? What are the
leading indicators that we needto address to fix the problem?
Lisa McCracken (19:52):
Yeah. So if I'm someone just getting started on
this journey, and let's talkspecifically around the data
and analytics, and I know I'mweak with that, what
suggestions do you have fororganizations that are just
beginning to go down this path?
Maybe Paul, we'll start withyou and Brett, you can add on.
Paul Jarvis (20:10):
I would always say be simple. I think it's very
easy to run away withcomplexity when it comes to
data. There's also a technologypiece and a process piece.
Something we often run into is,does everyone on your team
agree on what metric forturnover we're measuring? Are
we gaming it?
Lisa McCracken (20:25):
I've seen so many formulas for turnover, but
go ahead.
Paul Jarvis (20:28):
Yeah. So like, is it turnover? Is it retention?
Is it 90, is it 180? Pick theNorth Star for your
organization and start there.
Build a culture around, we'regoing to have good data that we
look at. We're going to make adecision with our dashboard.
We're going to actually look atit as a group together, and
then layer on increasingcomplexity. I think you can
only solve a few problems at atime. So you have to say, what
(20:48):
are we trying to do? Is it getagency down to zero? Is it
retain the staff that we'rehiring for a longer period of
time? Is it optimize labor?
That would be my advice forfolks who are just starting:
keep it simple, keep itprioritized, and it's always
easier to get more complicated.
It's a lot harder to stripstuff back because you can get
addicted to a dashboard withlots of widgets, even if it
(21:09):
doesn't do anything for you.
Lisa McCracken (21:13):
Right. Is there anything organizations can do
to be a little more proactive,even in terms of what they're
measuring? Because I suspectyou probably have organizations
across the board where some arealready measuring this, and
others are starting with nodata. There's a "junk in, junk
out" element to it too. So froma data sophistication
standpoint, let's just startwith collecting the data. Any
words of wisdom on how to buildthat infrastructure, keeping it
(21:35):
simple, starting simple?
Paul Jarvis (21:44):
You need to pick software that's easy to use.
That's a starting point. Youneed to train the folks, and
you need to make an expectationthat it's part of the job. I
think carving aside specificamounts of time for data input
is important, but really, thereneeds to be a review. If people
know you're not doing anythingwith the data, there's no
incentive to enter itcorrectly. Why would you do
(22:06):
that when you have a lot ofother responsibilities? That's
where creating these minifeedback loops within an
organization is key. If peopleknow the data they're providing
is being used in a way thatbenefits them and the
organization, and they'rerewarded and coached for it, it
changes things. Some of themost successful groups we
worked with at Claret createdbonus scorecards based on
hitting certain KPIs. If youweren't entering the data in,
(22:28):
you wouldn't have the datacoming out, and you wouldn't
unlock the bonus. It's littleopportunities like that where
you say, I don't expect you todo everything, but these are
the things I need from youbecause it's on top of their
day job. People have tounderstand the context.
Lisa McCracken (22:44):
Right. And people get pulled in so many
different directions. You getsucked into the weeds really
quickly in some of thoseday-to-day positions. This may
be my stupidity, but whatpositions are you dependent on
to enter the data? When you'retalking about incentivizing
people to be contributors todata, who are we talking about
here?
Paul Jarvis (23:03):
At the community level, you're talking about the
scheduler, the business officemanager, the executive
director. If you're doingacuity-based scheduling, which
we do in some areas, like inOregon where you have to do
that, then you also require thenursing staff. So, you get the
point, it's kind of everybody.
It's not just one.
Lisa McCracken (23:18):
Person line drum in the sand. Okay.
Paul Jarvis (23:19):
And that's where it's a cultural expectation,
right? That this is somethingwe care about—accuracy, and as
an organization, beingwell-run, being operationally
efficient. That starts from thebottom, and it starts from the
culture at the top.
Lisa McCracken (23:33):
Right. So for an organization that's in a
place where they're like, youknow, ProCare, that platform
sounds great, that integratedmodel, but we just don't have
the resources right now. Brett,what could I do on my own? Is
there anything you know, thateither of you have suggestions
for, in terms of, Hey, here's agreat starting point, whether
it's ProCare or not?
Brett Landrum (23:56):
Yeah. I think particularly related to labor,
I'll narrow it from databroadly to labor specifically.
It's really getting tight toPaul's point about what are the
handful of really criticalinputs we want to measure. The
important point there is, whatare the inputs, not the
outcomes? Everybody's going toknow their overtime, shift
(24:18):
bonuses, agency, etc. But it'sabout the handful of inputs we
can action every single day andcreate a cultural emphasis on
getting better at. I had acollege coach who used to talk
about getting better 1% a day,and if you get better 1% a day,
at the end of the year, you'rea whole lot better. I think you
take that same approach tolabor. What are the handful of
(24:39):
inputs that are really criticalto reducing overtime, hitting
my HPRD numbers, and gettingagency out? What are those
behaviors? How do I measurethem? And then you just work on
them over and over again. Asyour team develops the muscle
around a couple of those andgets really great at it, you
reward them, acknowledge them,and then add a couple more.
Lisa McCracken (25:10):
I wanna get up on the balcony, like
10,000-foot level, just on thatagency piece. What I'm hearing
and observing as an industry isthat things have gotten a
little better.
Brett Landrum (25:19):
Quite a bit
Lisa McCracken (25:19):
And the agency usage, I think we hear a lot of
variability still acrossoperators. But I also hear,
okay, we're less dependent onagency usage, but our own
internal overtime is killingus. So we're just shifting the
dollars to our internal staff.
Have you seen groups createtheir own internal agency pools
and have success with that?
Brett Landrum (25:39):
Yeah, we have.
There are some naturalchallenges that creates. Like
from an incentive perspective.
Lisa McCracken (25:49):
You're robbing, you know ,
Brett Landrum (25:51):
Employee. Well, if I'm an internal agency
employee, I'm probably gonnaget paid a little bit more. So,
do I want to work a normalshift, or does everybody want
to be in the agency? I'vetalked to some operators who've
done it successfully, and I'vetalked to a few who used to do
it and then eliminated it. Mybelief on labor is that really
successful labor performancecomes down to two things.
(26:11):
Number one is having a reallystrong and consistent talent
acquisition function, so we'regetting the volume—sounds very
cold, but the units oflabor—in. Then it's the
discipline, the data, and thefollow-through from an
execution perspective on how weare optimizing and deploying
those units of labor. That'sthe secret sauce. We have to be
(26:31):
able to do both of those thingswell and consistently, and
measure what the inputs are andhow we're tracking on both
fronts.
Lisa McCracken (26:49):
Yeah. Okay. I got a final question for you.
If we're here a year from now,what's the vision for ProCare
in the next year? Where are youheaded? What are you thinking
of doing? Talk to us aboutthat.
Brett Landrum (27:06):
Paul's very nervous right now.
Paul Jarvis (27:08):
I was gonna say,
Brett Landrum (27:08):
What's about to come out of my mouth? He , he
Lisa McCracken (27:11):
We're releasing the new strategic plan right
here alive . Yeah .
Paul Jarvis (27:14):
He Brett's about to write a blank check that I
have to go cash after this.
Brett Landrum (27:17):
That's what he always accuses me of. Really,
for the next 12 months, it'scontinuing to work on and grind
on being best in class atlabor. It's having a solution
that isn't available in themarket, one we're able to
quantitatively prove producesmaterial results, where we can
go into an organization andchange the financial trajectory
(27:39):
of the organization. That'swhere we're heading. We have a
lot of the pieces in place. Nowwe just have to accelerate the
development of those productsand services and, frankly, just
execute. We have a lot of greatclients that are buying in and
trusting us to do this. Nowit's like, we've talked a lot
about where we want to go. It'stime to show up, do the hard
work, and drive the results.
Lisa McCracken (28:06):
Well, it's been great to see you grow, and it's
been great. I think theaddition is just a perfect
alignment with where all of youneed to go. So, thank you for
your time. Any final words ofwisdom, Paul? Any final
comments?
Paul Jarvis (28:21):
No, this was a great conversation. Thank you
for having us.
Lisa McCracken (28:23):
Yeah. Well, thank you, Brett. We wish you
the best of luck with the restof the conference, and until we
sit down and do this again.
Really appreciate it. Weappreciate everybody joining us
today with the NIC Chatspodcast live from DC. We look
forward to seeing you again.
Enjoy the rest of theconference.
Well, hello everyone. Thank you for joining
us at the NIC Chats podcast. Weare live from Washington DC at
the NIC Fall Conference. Veryexcited to be with you here
today. You can see the energybehind us, and I'm triple
excited 'cause this is athree-peat. For those of you
who don't know, we have ProCareHR, Brett Landrum with us,
(00:24):
their CEO and founder. And thisis the third time that we have
been together for this. I thinkyou're just back 'cause you
like the headsets.
Brett Landrum (00:32):
That's right.
Good company.
Lisa McCracken (00:34):
That's right.
The conversation's gonna begreat. The headsets look
awesome. So we're gonna havesome really engaging
conversation today. So, beforewe dive into the conversation,
I'm gonna ask the two of you tointroduce yourselves, 'cause
Brett, you've got a colleaguehere with you. Tell us a little
about ProCare HR and yourrespective roles in the
organization. Brett, we'llstart with you.
Brett Landrum (00:56):
So my name's Brett Landrum, I'm the founder
and co-CEO of ProCare. Really,at a high level, when we talk
about ProCare, I like to startwith the vision. The investment
thesis and vision for ourbusiness is that people and
people-related functions, andreally enhancing the outcomes
we can drive in those areas,can translate to outsized
impact on the business outcomesour clients are trying to
(01:17):
drive, which are quality ofcare, resident satisfaction,
financial performance, and thecapability to grow and scale.
Everything we do is about howdo we build a model that can
produce superior HR outcomes,and how can we quantify how
those superior HR outcomestranslate to the drivers of our
client's success? And how weposition ourselves in the
(01:48):
market is we have afoundational HR services layer.
We're providing comprehensiveHR services, every area of HR
really optimized for seniorcare. On top of that, we have
developed some unique solutionsaround labor and optimizing
labor expense and controls insenior care. And then, as we're
talking about today with Pauland his business partner Henry,
we've recently made anacquisition of Claret to build
(02:11):
a data muscle around everythingwe do.
Lisa McCracken (02:23):
And we're gonna talk about that a little bit.
And I should know the answer tothis, but I don't, so I'm gonna
ask, are you guys solely seniorliving?
Brett Landrum (02:30):
So we are about 90% senior care. About 90%
senior care and then 10%disability services. And
there's a little bit ofcrossover when you get into
dementia or different stateswhere you might have behavioral
health and senior care in aparticular community together.
But it's all, I'd say, seniorcare and a little bit of
disability services.
Lisa McCracken (02:52):
Okay. I knew you were quite specialized in
senior care, but I wasn't sureif there was some carryover to
others. Alright, Paul, we'vegot a new guest this time.
Introduce yourself.
Paul Jarvis (03:02):
Thank you. Happy to be here. I'm Paul Jarvis.
I'm responsible for sales andmarketing at ProCare. I joined
the organization in May of thisyear via the acquisition of a
company I had started calledClaret. We did business
intelligence for senior livingowners and operators. We pulled
together financial andoperational data, payroll, CRM,
chart of accounts, rent roll,and brought it into integrated
(03:24):
systems and dashboards foranalytics. When Brett
approached me about potentiallyworking together, HR is the
largest expense item. What Ihad found from talking to
operators and owners was it wasalso the place where they felt
they had the least ability, thefewest levers into their
business, and the highestdegree of complexity. So it was
an opportunity to take thetechnology we had developed and
(03:46):
marry it to the expertise andservice muscle at ProCare, like
the people, the relationshipswith clients. So it was a
really cool partnership. I'vereally enjoyed being part of
the organization since May.
Lisa McCracken (04:01):
So when we chatted in advance of this a
little bit, I was reflectingback on a year ago when we were
sitting in Chicago doing thispodcast. I remember asking you,
I don't know if you rememberthis, so I'm gonna remind you,
asking you about the role ofdata and analytics as it
relates to labor and workforcemanagement and so forth. And
you said then, we have a visionfor growing that, and we
(04:22):
realize the importance andvalue of that data analytics.
And I observe we're here andyou've done it. So do you want
to reflect back on connectingthe dots of one year ago,
saying, yeah, we're gonnacommit to that, and now you
have? And I think probablypartly, and largely due to this
partnership and acquisition,it's pretty cool.
Brett Landrum (04:44):
Yeah. It's really surreal. I mean, you
look at ProCare, it's beenaround for 10 years, and if you
would've told me we were gonnabe doing what we're doing today
eight years ago, I would'vethought you were crazy. And so
it's really, you know, there'sa Jim Collins principle that
there's no big winning move.
There's not one thing where youjust look back and think, oh, I
(05:05):
made this really excellentdecision, and the business
suddenly transformed. Thetransformation is really a
series of intentional actionsand hard work over a long
period of time. And then all ofa sudden you look back and
you're like, whoa, this iswhere we're at, and we're doing
some really interesting andexciting things. And I think
(05:31):
last year was a big year for usin getting really clear and
focused on what the vision forProCare is and the impact we
want to have on the market.
ProCare's really, I alwaysdescribe us as a mission-based
growth company. Growth is theconduit to being able to drive
the change in the industry thatwe believe can be really
impactful. And last year, wegot really clear on that vision
of how we're going to do it: getting really good at data and (05:50):
undefined
using data as the way toconvince the market that people
functions are not justimportant, but critical to do
well. And then, number two,providing the insight on where
to resource both financiallyand with sweat equity into
those people functions to drivethe business outcomes we're
looking for. As we got clear onthat last year, data was a big
part of it. What I didn'tappreciate at the time is that,
(06:12):
in our organization, we hadabsolutely no technical
expertise in data.
Paul Jarvis (06:35):
Brett Landrum (06:36):
And so we created this really grandiose
vision of, hey, we're gonnabuild this data platform, we're
gonna be wildly successful, andit's gonna drive all these
great results for our clientsin the marketplace. We got into
Q1 and we're like, we have noclue how to actually do this.
We're in trouble. I wasfortunate enough that we have
really great customers, and oneof our larger clients, who was
actually a client of Claret,was giving me some ideas and
(06:58):
advice and said, you reallyshould talk to Claret. And that
was how it all came about.
Lisa McCracken (07:14):
Yeah. Well, you know, so much of success, and
with any leaders, is throughthose partnerships and
recognizing where we can fillin the gaps. And having a
partner who does know the data,I think, for your clients is
tremendous because it can beincredibly daunting and
overwhelming. And I wanna talkabout that a little bit. So you
had shared that you have about20,000 customer employees?
Brett Landrum (07:36):
We're probably sitting around 20, 22, 24.
Lisa McCracken (07:40):
Wow. Okay. So that's significant. And as
somebody who's a researcher,and I like numbers too, that's
a wealth of data andinformation. So can you share
some perspective on what's mostvaluable about that data pull,
and how do you use it? What doyou see as some of the key
pieces to pull out of that?
Paul Jarvis (08:00):
Yeah. My experience has been, there's a
couple of ways that peoplealways want to use data. One of
them is essentially, am I doinga good job? And that's a
combination of benchmarks,trends, industry averages. Are
you hitting your targetsconsistently? So that's one
category. The other piece isreally around operational
improvement. And I think thereare certain areas in this
business, scheduling is a greatexample where the rubber meets
(08:22):
the road. Same thing withtalent acquisition. These are
high-volume, day-to-day taskswhere if you look at it on a
dashboard, you say, okay,that's my schedule, that's my
hiring pipeline. But how areyou actually using that
information? It doesn't reallyhelp you to say, oh, here's my
agency spend. What you want tosay is, where do I want that
number to be? If I want thisone to go down, what are the
(08:46):
levers I have available? And soI think that has been the
mindset shift we've beenworking on. I had a mentor
where I started my career atPalantir, which was a little
startup then. It's now in theSB 500, a big data analytics
company. But he would alwayssay, you never have a dashboard
without a decision. And I thinkthe trap a lot of software and
companies fall into is you havea really shiny dashboard, but
what do you do with it? So,operationalizing that data,
(09:08):
particularly in thesehigh-transaction areas where
the money goes out the door, orwhere decisions get made around
recruiting and scheduling,those are the biggest
opportunities.
Lisa McCracken (09:23):
Yeah. There are a lot of empty dashboards out
there that serve the purpose ofa monthly report or informing a
weekly update, whatever itmight be, but it stops there.
Paul Jarvis (09:33):
Exactly.
Lisa McCracken (09:34):
You mentioned the scheduling piece. The
organization has made a veryspecific commitment to being a
partner on that front. So framethe problem you're trying to
solve there. What are ourchallenges on the scheduling
side of things, if you were toboil it down to some key
issues?
Paul Jarvis (09:53):
Do you wanna take this?
Brett Landrum (09:55):
Scheduling in senior care is so complex. The
reason it's so complex is,number one, you're dealing with
human beings who areunpredictable and sometimes
unreliable. You've got adynamic and fast-changing need
to meet. Our census changes,our acuity changes frequently,
our pay by employee can changeon a regular basis, and
(10:18):
employee status changes quitefrequently. Actually getting
the schedule right takestriangulating a number of
different variables all at oncein order to get the schedule
right for the future. And nowhere's the real challenge: that
changes every single day.
Lisa McCracken (10:45):
Within the day
Brett Landrum (10:46):
365, 24/7. It's constantly changing. And we're
asking schedulers who typicallydon't have real analytical
training to come in and computea number of different variables
all day, every single day. Thatis going to control a large
part of our financial success.
So really, the problem comesdown to a complex environment,
(11:07):
a lack of skills and trainingto meet the needs of the job,
often a lack of dataavailability, and then
resourcing it from having thefocus and discipline to drive
it day in and day out. We talkabout labor as the tree you
never cut down. It's neverdone. As soon as you take your
eye off the ball, as soon asyou lose discipline or focus,
(11:29):
you see a pop in overtime oragency, or shift bonuses,
whatever it might be, or yourHPRD goes up. It's just a
really hard area to beconsistently good at.
Lisa McCracken (12:00):
How much are you dependent on that
scheduler? I mean, it's notlike people come in with a
bachelor's degree inscheduling, and candidly, it's
probably not the sexiest job. Iwould suspect that when a
scheduler leaves, it's like abit of a starting over point.
Yes.
Brett Landrum (12:16):
It's arguably the hardest job in senior
living. You're constantly goingafter employees, trying to beg,
borrow, and steal to get shiftsfilled. In a number of
scenarios, the scheduler is thebackup if a shift can't get
filled. And you're dealing withpeople's lives. It's not like,
oh, we're just going to havethis particular checkout lane
closed. It's, hey, if I can'tfill the shift, we could have a
real health problem.
Lisa McCracken (12:44):
Right. So where does your platform help
mitigate some of that? Whereare the solutions coming into
play?
Paul Jarvis (12:51):
Sure. I can't give away all the secret sauce, but
we'll go through it.
Lisa McCracken (12:56):
Just wet the whistle a little bit.
Paul Jarvis (12:57):
Exactly. So essentially what we do is take
data from two places (13:00):
the payroll system and the
scheduling system. We bring itinto a proprietary data
analytics engine that we'vebuilt, which looks at the
leading drivers of labor cost.
Things like how far ahead areyou able to build a complete
schedule, or what percentage ofyour employees have not used
all their regularly availablehours before you start getting
into overtime. Some of thoseare more predictive than
(13:21):
others, but essentially youlook at the largest drivers
first. Then we have a group ofpeople on staff with deep
operating expertise, whetherit's building schedules or, for
example, one guy was the CRO ata large organization. They
provide expert coaching andsupport back to the
organization. So it's thecombination of using a good
scheduling software, looking atthe right pieces of data, and
providing coaching on a veryregular and timely basis that
(13:44):
creates the flywheel. We havethe inputs, the analytics, and
the follow-up.
Lisa McCracken (14:00):
Yeah. I love that integrated model because I
think there are some solutionsand platforms out there that
just end with, here's our plugand play. But that coaching
piece and that onsite piece iscritical to where the rubber
hits the road and making thingsmove the needle. Do you have
any move-the-needle stories oruse cases you want to share?
Because at the end of the day,it's about improving
(14:21):
operational efficiencies,improving the employees.
There's all those things youtalked about in the beginning,
but you're doing it right.
There's some cost savings inthere because it's a big cost
strain if you got thescheduling wrong and messed up.
So talk to me a little bitabout some of the successes
you've had.
Brett Landrum (14:42):
We have a really fantastic partner, a client of
ours. They have a number ofdifferent communities, and they
have a very large skilledfacility, about 380 beds. It's
a great community with a long,storied history, but it's got a
ton of complexity. They broughtus in to be their HR partner,
and we've developed a fantasticworking relationship with them,
(15:04):
which is part of the reason wewere able to get to the
results. With that particularorganization, in about 45 days,
we took them from a 4.2 HPRD toa 3.6. We eliminated just under
$120,000 per payroll from theirlabor cost. That wasn't agency;
it was overtime, overstaffing,shift bonuses, clock creep,
etc. So it was about $3 milliona year we carved out.
Lisa McCracken (15:49):
That's not jump change
Brett Landrum (15:50):
No, and I'll say, we can do all of the right
work, but to thisorganization's credit, they're
a fantastic partner. The typeof organization that will call
and say, "Hey, what do you needto drive the outcomes?" We give
them a barrier, and they removethe barrier. They look at us as
a member of their executiveteam, as part of their
(16:11):
organization, and it's allowedus to collectively drive really
fantastic results.
Lisa McCracken (16:22):
And I want you to elaborate on that to the
extent you have some additionalthoughts. What makes a
fantastic partner? Because,again, you guys can do your
part, but there's stilldependency on those boots on
the ground and those folks inthe community. So what makes an
ideal partner?
Brett Landrum (16:38):
I think anytime you're outsourcing or choosing
an HR partner versus having anin-house solution, it's a big
cultural shift, and that's hardto overcome. So having
executive buy-in across theentire executive team to say,
we're committed to this, andthis isn't an option, and this
isn't a trial run, ProCare isour partner. ProCare is part of
(17:00):
our team. We're gonna lookafter them, and we're gonna be
invested in their success justlike they're invested in ours.
From a philosophicalperspective, there's gotta be a
degree of comfort and buy-inthat we're getting married and
staying married, so we need tofigure out how to work this out
together. Then, on a moreoperational level, it's having
the connectivity and workingrelationship where we can call
and say, here's a barrier wehave with a particular leader
(17:20):
on your team. Here's what we'reobserving. We really need
support on removing thisbarrier or overcoming it so
that we can drive a particularoutcome. This particular
organization, we met with themevery single day for 90 days,
(17:44):
just on labor. Their head ofoperations was on that call
every single day for 90 days.
The messaging to her team was,this is important. This is a
priority. We have a high degreeof trust in ProCare. The last
aspect is a level ofvulnerability and trust.
They're willing to come to usduring these discussions and
(18:04):
say, I'm not sure what to dohere. What do you think? And
then the trust and willingnessto have that back-and-forth
dialogue and problem-solve withus, using the collective
intelligence we've amassed overthe last 10 years. Bringing in
a great team, great people, andexperts, that's available to
all of our clients. By andlarge, our clients are great
about being open to tappinginto that.
Lisa McCracken (18:44):
Do most realize they have a problem? I mean,
workforce obviously, it's notlike everybody's saying, oh,
it's going great and there's aselect few that are struggling.
But do you think theynecessarily have that insight
into where the problem areasreally are?
Brett Landrum (18:59):
Yeah. I ,
Lisa McCracken (19:00):
Because I perceive that sometimes there's
just this paralysis. Like, wedon't know where to start.
We've got challenges. We knowwhat our payroll looks like, we
know what our turnover lookslike, and we're scheduling on
paper and pencil. I'm justcurious.
Brett Landrum (19:13):
It's like there's a perpetual staffing
shortage nationwide. Soeverybody knows we have
challenges with staffing. Froma labor perspective, all the
operators we interface with arelooking at overtime and agency
use. They're looking at all ofthe key financial drivers
within labor on a regularbasis. I don't know that they
always have the data they needto say, we see what the problem
(19:37):
is, but what are the inputsinto the problem? What are the
leading indicators that we needto address to fix the problem?
Lisa McCracken (19:52):
Yeah. So if I'm someone just getting started on
this journey, and let's talkspecifically around the data
and analytics, and I know I'mweak with that, what
suggestions do you have fororganizations that are just
beginning to go down this path?
Maybe Paul, we'll start withyou and Brett, you can add on.
Paul Jarvis (20:10):
I would always say be simple. I think it's very
easy to run away withcomplexity when it comes to
data. There's also a technologypiece and a process piece.
Something we often run into is,does everyone on your team
agree on what metric forturnover we're measuring? Are
we gaming it?
Lisa McCracken (20:25):
I've seen so many formulas for turnover, but
go ahead.
Paul Jarvis (20:28):
Yeah. So like, is it turnover? Is it retention?
Is it 90, is it 180? Pick theNorth Star for your
organization and start there.
Build a culture around, we'regoing to have good data that we
look at. We're going to make adecision with our dashboard.
We're going to actually look atit as a group together, and
then layer on increasingcomplexity. I think you can
only solve a few problems at atime. So you have to say, what
(20:48):
are we trying to do? Is it getagency down to zero? Is it
retain the staff that we'rehiring for a longer period of
time? Is it optimize labor?
That would be my advice forfolks who are just starting:
keep it simple, keep itprioritized, and it's always
easier to get more complicated.
It's a lot harder to stripstuff back because you can get
addicted to a dashboard withlots of widgets, even if it
(21:09):
doesn't do anything for you.
Lisa McCracken (21:13):
Right. Is there anything organizations can do
to be a little more proactive,even in terms of what they're
measuring? Because I suspectyou probably have organizations
across the board where some arealready measuring this, and
others are starting with nodata. There's a "junk in, junk
out" element to it too. So froma data sophistication
standpoint, let's just startwith collecting the data. Any
words of wisdom on how to buildthat infrastructure, keeping it
(21:35):
simple, starting simple?
Paul Jarvis (21:44):
You need to pick software that's easy to use.
That's a starting point. Youneed to train the folks, and
you need to make an expectationthat it's part of the job. I
think carving aside specificamounts of time for data input
is important, but really, thereneeds to be a review. If people
know you're not doing anythingwith the data, there's no
incentive to enter itcorrectly. Why would you do
(22:06):
that when you have a lot ofother responsibilities? That's
where creating these minifeedback loops within an
organization is key. If peopleknow the data they're providing
is being used in a way thatbenefits them and the
organization, and they'rerewarded and coached for it, it
changes things. Some of themost successful groups we
worked with at Claret createdbonus scorecards based on
hitting certain KPIs. If youweren't entering the data in,
(22:28):
you wouldn't have the datacoming out, and you wouldn't
unlock the bonus. It's littleopportunities like that where
you say, I don't expect you todo everything, but these are
the things I need from youbecause it's on top of their
day job. People have tounderstand the context.
Lisa McCracken (22:44):
Right. And people get pulled in so many
different directions. You getsucked into the weeds really
quickly in some of thoseday-to-day positions. This may
be my stupidity, but whatpositions are you dependent on
to enter the data? When you'retalking about incentivizing
people to be contributors todata, who are we talking about
here?
Paul Jarvis (23:03):
At the community level, you're talking about the
scheduler, the business officemanager, the executive
director. If you're doingacuity-based scheduling, which
we do in some areas, like inOregon where you have to do
that, then you also require thenursing staff. So, you get the
point, it's kind of everybody.
It's not just one.
Lisa McCracken (23:18):
Person line drum in the sand. Okay.
Paul Jarvis (23:19):
And that's where it's a cultural expectation,
right? That this is somethingwe care about—accuracy, and as
an organization, beingwell-run, being operationally
efficient. That starts from thebottom, and it starts from the
culture at the top.
Lisa McCracken (23:33):
Right. So for an organization that's in a
place where they're like, youknow, ProCare, that platform
sounds great, that integratedmodel, but we just don't have
the resources right now. Brett,what could I do on my own? Is
there anything you know, thateither of you have suggestions
for, in terms of, Hey, here's agreat starting point, whether
it's ProCare or not?
Brett Landrum (23:56):
Yeah. I think particularly related to labor,
I'll narrow it from databroadly to labor specifically.
It's really getting tight toPaul's point about what are the
handful of really criticalinputs we want to measure. The
important point there is, whatare the inputs, not the
outcomes? Everybody's going toknow their overtime, shift
(24:18):
bonuses, agency, etc. But it'sabout the handful of inputs we
can action every single day andcreate a cultural emphasis on
getting better at. I had acollege coach who used to talk
about getting better 1% a day,and if you get better 1% a day,
at the end of the year, you'rea whole lot better. I think you
take that same approach tolabor. What are the handful of
(24:39):
inputs that are really criticalto reducing overtime, hitting
my HPRD numbers, and gettingagency out? What are those
behaviors? How do I measurethem? And then you just work on
them over and over again. Asyour team develops the muscle
around a couple of those andgets really great at it, you
reward them, acknowledge them,and then add a couple more.
Lisa McCracken (25:10):
I wanna get up on the balcony, like
10,000-foot level, just on thatagency piece. What I'm hearing
and observing as an industry isthat things have gotten a
little better.
Brett Landrum (25:19):
Quite a bit
Lisa McCracken (25:19):
And the agency usage, I think we hear a lot of
variability still acrossoperators. But I also hear,
okay, we're less dependent onagency usage, but our own
internal overtime is killingus. So we're just shifting the
dollars to our internal staff.
Have you seen groups createtheir own internal agency pools
and have success with that?
Brett Landrum (25:39):
Yeah, we have.
There are some naturalchallenges that creates. Like
from an incentive perspective.
Lisa McCracken (25:49):
You're robbing, you know ,
Brett Landrum (25:51):
Employee. Well, if I'm an internal agency
employee, I'm probably gonnaget paid a little bit more. So,
do I want to work a normalshift, or does everybody want
to be in the agency? I'vetalked to some operators who've
done it successfully, and I'vetalked to a few who used to do
it and then eliminated it. Mybelief on labor is that really
successful labor performancecomes down to two things.
(26:11):
Number one is having a reallystrong and consistent talent
acquisition function, so we'regetting the volume—sounds very
cold, but the units oflabor—in. Then it's the
discipline, the data, and thefollow-through from an
execution perspective on how weare optimizing and deploying
those units of labor. That'sthe secret sauce. We have to be
(26:31):
able to do both of those thingswell and consistently, and
measure what the inputs are andhow we're tracking on both
fronts.
Lisa McCracken (26:49):
Yeah. Okay. I got a final question for you.
If we're here a year from now,what's the vision for ProCare
in the next year? Where are youheaded? What are you thinking
of doing? Talk to us aboutthat.
Brett Landrum (27:06):
Paul's very nervous right now.
Paul Jarvis (27:08):
I was gonna say,
Brett Landrum (27:08):
What's about to come out of my mouth? He , he
Lisa McCracken (27:11):
We're releasing the new strategic plan right
here alive . Yeah .
Paul Jarvis (27:14):
He Brett's about to write a blank check that I
have to go cash after this.
Brett Landrum (27:17):
That's what he always accuses me of. Really,
for the next 12 months, it'scontinuing to work on and grind
on being best in class atlabor. It's having a solution
that isn't available in themarket, one we're able to
quantitatively prove producesmaterial results, where we can
go into an organization andchange the financial trajectory
(27:39):
of the organization. That'swhere we're heading. We have a
lot of the pieces in place. Nowwe just have to accelerate the
development of those productsand services and, frankly, just
execute. We have a lot of greatclients that are buying in and
trusting us to do this. Nowit's like, we've talked a lot
about where we want to go. It'stime to show up, do the hard
work, and drive the results.
Lisa McCracken (28:06):
Well, it's been great to see you grow, and it's
been great. I think theaddition is just a perfect
alignment with where all of youneed to go. So, thank you for
your time. Any final words ofwisdom, Paul? Any final
comments?
Paul Jarvis (28:21):
No, this was a great conversation. Thank you
for having us.
Lisa McCracken (28:23):
Yeah. Well, thank you, Brett. We wish you
the best of luck with the restof the conference, and until we
sit down and do this again.
Really appreciate it. Weappreciate everybody joining us
today with the NIC Chatspodcast live from DC. We look
forward to seeing you again.
Enjoy the rest of theconference.
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