January 9, 2025 • 34 mins
Sean Kelly, President and CEO of Front Porch, one of the nation’s largest not-for-profit senior living providers, joins the NIC Chats podcast to discuss the evolving landscape of senior living. Sean shares his unique journey into the industry, reflecting on childhood experiences that shaped his perspective on community and intergenerational connections. He offers insights into the changing needs and expectations of baby boomers, emphasizing the importance of engagement, purpose, and community integration in senior living environments.
Hear Kelly’s perspective on the challenges and opportunities facing the sector, including the need for creative partnerships, innovative service models, and addressing middle-market affordability. He also discusses Front Porch's strategic focus on culture, performance, and leadership development. Kelly concludes with a call to action for industry leaders to amplify their voices and change societal perceptions about aging, highlighting the potential for personal growth and discovery in later life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa McCracken (00:03):
Hi everyone.
Welcome to the NIC Chatspodcast. My name is Lisa
McCracken. I'm the head ofResearch and Analytics with
NIC. Very excited to have todaywith us, Sean Kelly , the
president, CEO of Front Porch,who I've known for many years.
So thank you for carving timeout of your, what I know is a
very busy schedule, Sean , to,to spend some time with me
(00:24):
today and our NIC audience wholistens to these podcasts.
Sean Kelly (00:28):
Well, thank you, Lisa. And, you know, it's my
pleasure and then some. And youalso know , like I think every
other one of us that's workingin this space right now, that
there is nothing other than abusy schedule. And this time of
year, my wife would tell methat there is not a single
person that exists that'spaying attention, that doesn't
have a busy schedule. So,that's right.
Lisa McCracken (00:49):
All good.
That's r ight. I guess betterthan the alternative. So , you
know, Sean , I was thinkingactually about when I first met
you, I've been with NIC alittle over a year, was with
Zeigler for a decade, with waswith Holleran and I'm pretty
sure it was during my Hollerandays. But for the benefit of
our listeners, I would love foryou to just, you know, before
(01:11):
we dig into all these kinds oftrends and your vision for the
future and all that fun stuff,to share a little bit about how
you got into the industry. Ialways think it's interesting
because as we know sometimesit's a crooked path about how
people got into the industry,and it's not always this nice
linear, like, "Hey, I wannagrow up and be in the senior
living business." And I knowyou're doing some work around
all that too. But can you justshare a little bit about how
(01:32):
you got to where you are
Sean Kelly (01:35):
Well, for sure. I, you know, I thought about this
a lot and I've been asked, youknow, we've all been asked this
quite a bit and there are very,very few straight lines. I can
think of a few young folks thatI know who might have it, but
I'll start with maybe not how Igot into it, but Okay.
Reflected for quite a bit on Ithink why I was predisposed to
it, Lisa. And it goes back towhen I was a kid , um, you
(02:00):
know, there are traditionalstories around how people get
in and it's grandparents orsomething happened with direct,
somebody directly related to aperson. But in my case , the
story goes that my brotherPeter and I, you know, we had,
we were mom and apple piegrowing up, and unfortunately
in our formative years, as canhappen in life , our parents
(02:21):
got divorced. Mm-hmm . So we're like
fourth and sixth grade, and mydad moves us super close to his
parents, very close to where hegrew up. So we spent the
preponderance of our growing uplives, you know, late grammar
school, adolescence, middleschool, high school, et cetera.
And thereafter, even in somecases , not just close to our
(02:42):
grandparents, but very often,like completely immersed in
their lives. Mm-hmm . And in my case,
you know, my grandmother, mydad's mom was, you know, from
the town where they lived. Shewas incredibly social. She was
incredibly kind in every way,you know, whether it's at
church or at the schools or theneighborhood. And she had a ton
(03:03):
of friends and family aroundher. And as the story goes
there, she would have, onTuesdays, she would have her
friends come over and somefamily members to get their
hair done. Like to the pointwhere in my grandparents'
laundry room on the firstfloor, there was one of those
old fashioned hair dryersthat's like a spaceship. Oh, I
(03:23):
know . Yeah , yeah. You know,the big chair , the spaceship
goes on. And there was a womanthat whom I know well, that
would come in and do theirhair. And I'd often be there,
you know, I'd be watching TVand this big Kitchen, and
everybody's, you know, they'resmoking, this is in the
seventies, you know, they'resmoking, they're drinking,
they're getting their hairdone, they're talking about
stuff. And they noticed that Iwas always curious about what
(03:47):
they were drinking, and theywere drinking high balls in
these high ball glasses. And itwas a different color from the
milk, orange juice or Coke thatI was drinking. And at a point
in time, I would ask, and mygrandmother always saying , oh,
we're just having some booze.
Well, they wanted me to feel apart of what they were doing so
much that they made me my ownbooze , but my own
(04:08):
booze to create that brownishcolor was made out of Coca-Cola
and Tropicana Orange juice. Sothat became, so they, my point
is they invited me in and I wasjust sort of one of the gang
from the time that I was asuper young kid. That was
number one, number two, in thatsame house, my grandfather, my
grandmother's husband was the,was the doctor in the town
(04:32):
where they lived. Mm-hmm . One of the last
one, doctors to have done housecalls. If you've seen Field of
Dreams. My grandfather bore astriking resemblance to
Moonlight Graham mm-hmm . Doc Graham .
And in the way that he, youknow, carried the bag in a
trench coat, a commandingpresence and so forth, he was
also incredibly generous andkind mm-hmm . So
(04:54):
in that same house where mybrother and I were often, where
my aunts and uncles, my dad'syounger siblings had mostly
gone off , we would be with mygrandparents, we'd have these
events with their friends, butmy grandfather would also reach
out to patients of his whodidn't have a way forward or a
way out or someone to networkwith or, or someone , uh, a
(05:16):
place to live a community. Andthere were more than a handful
of his patients and patientsrelations that lived in that
house over periods of time,literally lived there. And if
they didn't live there or theylived there for a while ,
they'd be back for Thanksgivingdinner or for Christmas. It was
amazing. And I, you know, itwas not unusual for me to be
(05:38):
sitting around and talking to aperson when I was 12 years old
about , you know, what hethought it was like coming
outta the battle of the bulge,you know? Wow . Or what it was
like to be , uh, a youngprofessional woman, you know,
working in the forties andfifties mm-hmm .
And I just, so that was sort ofalways in me, you know. And ,
um, once I got exposed to quotesenior living , uh, just by
(06:03):
chance I was working for aconstruction manager, I got
introduced to development, andthen I was very lucky to , um,
to have been given a chance tomeet and work with Avery
Rockefeller, Rockefeller andDoug Powell particularly, and,
and really get close to whatthis business was mm-hmm
. Mm-hmm . Because it's
not about building buildings,it's not about transactions.
(06:23):
And God knows Lisa, it's notabout, you know, everyone's
stereotype of what a nursinghome is. Right . And a lot more
to be said about that. So I wasquick to discover kind of what
quote , senior living at itsbest could be through the eyes
and brains and actions andgenerosity, particularly of
Avery and Doug . Mm-hmm . And I was sort
(06:46):
of taken by, this is alifestyle that my grandparents,
my grandmother especially,would have so thrived in mm-hmm
. But theywouldn't have had the foggiest
idea. Right . Not the foggiestidea that it was even a thing.
So, you know, the rest is kindof history. And then I, I was
very, very fortunate to be, youknow, around some really
amazing people. I did a lot ofwork with, you know ,
(07:08):
retirement living services. Iwas really kind of, I had an
itch to scratch to get close toa provider. And I was very,
very fortunate to have JohnDiffy be, you know , among my,
many, many mentors, and I stillhave him . Um, Judy Braun, our
Chief operating officer, taughtme more about human connection
as it relates to operationsthan almost anybody I've met.
(07:30):
Mm-hmm . And evenBob Kramer, you know, he has
been so generous with me overthe years, and, and I've
learned a lot. So, you know, Icame to this like, like most,
you know, crooked path byaccident, but it's very, very
clear to me anyway, that I'm,I'm doing, I think I'm doing
the work that I'm supposed tobe doing. Yeah.
Lisa McCracken (07:48):
Um , that is so awesome. And I would've loved
to have met your grandparents . They sound like
fascinating people. And that'swhere , I mean, the thing that
I appreciate about this sectoris, I feel like there is an
opportunity for that personalconnection and living your life
story in many ways. And I, Ithink we need to continue to do
a better job of, of talkingabout that, because it can be a
(08:09):
very fulfilling sector.
Sean Kelly (08:13):
I agree with you.
And I think there's a whole lotof discussion around where are
we going and, you know, thatpersonal connection or that
personal connectivity that ifyou would, purpose mining is,
is really fundamental to whatit is that drives a person, any
person, especially an olderperson. And I think needs to be
(08:35):
kind of at the top of our mindswhen we think about the kinds
of experiences that we hope to, uh, provide for, nourish,
foster when it comes toinviting people into the
communities or services that weprovide.
Lisa McCracken (08:48):
Well, I think that's a good segue into what I
wanna spend a few minutes on,so it's the customer or
consumer, whatever you callthem. And we've been talking
about the baby boomers, youknow, forever, and they're
really, they are here now, youknow, in some communities a
little bit more than others.
And we've been talking a lotabout how they have different
needs and you know, they'regonna have different
(09:09):
preferences and we need toadapt and so forth. So I'd love
to know your thoughts in termsof, first of all,
fundamentally, do you thinkthat they are a different
cohort and customer than whatwe served in the past? And are
we prepared? Are we ready? Andwhat do you think, you know, if
not, what needs to evolve forus to be relevant? I think one
of the things I do worry abouta little bit is we talk about,
(09:31):
oh, the demographic wave and soforth, is that we get a little
complacent and just think, youknow, Hey, we can prop up our
feet because there's this hugeplethora of seniors and, you
know, many have the ability topay and they're gonna come in
our doors . So I just, it'llallow for you to do a little
bit of , uh , a brain dump onwhat you see. Is that consumer
Sean Kelly (09:52):
Good luck with that. A brain dump.
Lisa McCracken (09:56):
For the next two hours.
Sean Kelly (09:57):
It's pretty empty, Yeah , it's a lot of fairly
empty in there. I am startingto replace some Seinfeld trivia
with other relevant stuff,Lisa, but yeah , the boomers
are different. Listen, we'vebeen talking about this
"boomers are different" for 20years. They're not different
from everybody, though, youknow, on mass, you know, we had
heard that the baby boomers aregonna be a lot more demanding.
(10:18):
They were going to , um, demandtransparency. They were going
to quote , "demand a seat atthe table." They were going to
want to have input, not wantdemand to have input in what
they, what you are doing as aprovider. Um, they have an
expectation that they're notjust, you know, living in a
community or living in abuilding, but joining a
movement in many cases, youknow, most of these folks are
(10:40):
recognizing that if they are tochoose into community, whether
it's bricks and mortar or thatof another sort, that they not
only need to know what it isthat they might get from that
community, but what might theygive to it, and what point of
view might that community have,you know, what, what measures
for advocacy and volunteerismand other things that go along
with living a life can befueled by this community that
(11:02):
they may or may not choose. So,you know, I think at the end of
the day, and I say that's not,you know, not, there are a lot
of people that have been aroundthe block many, many times
before the baby boomers eversort of came of age. And I was
lucky, I think, to have beenincredibly well exposed to the
whole notion of just let's,none of this works unless we
(11:23):
listen. Um, when I was growingup in this business, learning
about what it might take togenerate a development that
would attract people to comeand live and grow and, you
know, spend their lives , thething that was beat into my
head always was, you've gottapay attention to what it is
that people say that they want.
What's important to them? Andhow does that manifest in the
(11:45):
programs and the services andthe properties that you might
provide? If you aren't willingto spend the time to listen,
you're very likely, at best, todeliver something that's not
gonna be relevant to the marketthat you hope to serve. And
then I go to Kendall, you know,an amazing organization Born A
Quaker Values that , you know,and those values are the very
(12:07):
core insist that in everysingle being, every single
person, there is something tobe honored, something to be
heard, something to be soughtafter . And, you know,
that's always resonated withme. It's been lifeblood for
Kendall, and I've had a chanceto interact with, you know,
people on the provider sidethrough my Kendall
affiliations, and of course thepeople that have chosen into
(12:30):
that lifestyle over many, manyyears. So I fast forward to
today, and here I am at FrontPorch, and the game is changing
all around us. And we haveamazing people that are on the,
on the provider sort of staffside that are super inclined to
demonstrate the degrees ofrespect that invite questions
(12:52):
and commentary and advice andcounsel across, you know, our
populations of residents andthose folks that participate in
our programs. Mm-hmm . Um , having
said that, you know, there arealso lots of folks that really
kind of gripped the arms ontheir chairs really, really
tightly, because inviting allof that dialogue , inviting all
(13:13):
of that engagement canabsolutely feel like, and
sometimes result in a loss ofcontrol or chaos. Mm-hmm
. So I think, youknow, to me, engagement and
truly creating venues wherefolks, residents and staff,
frankly, and future residents,future consumers, where they
(13:35):
have an opportunity to learnabout what you're doing, why
you are doing it, and wherethey are genuinely sought for
counsel advice and what mattersto them. If you would, you
know, those are table stakes.
Yeah. We have to know how to beable to do that because Yeah .
And , and oh, by the way, Lisa,yes. The bricks and mortar
matter Yes. The quality of theprogramming matters. Yes. The
(13:57):
cost matters and where it ismatters, and is it up to date
matter , all that stuffmatters. And so does the
environment into which you areinviting people to become a
member of any community thatyou have an association with.
So yeah, it's changed. I wouldjust offer that it's now, you
know, that to me that was the,you know, 10 to 20% of the
crowd that we've served, thisis now the 80 to 90% of the
(14:20):
crowd that we intend to serve.
Lisa McCracken (14:22):
Yeah. I appreciate you. And I feel like
intuitively, I've known thatand you can feel that in
certain organizations versusothers, but I've never heard
somebody detail that as much interms of, okay, what can you
get by coming here, but whatcan you give? And I do think
because it's easier, you know,it's easier to stay in your own
home these days. Now, again, ifyou can afford it, and we will
(14:44):
talk a little bit about theaffordability piece. Yeah .
But, it's, you know, where arewe positioning as, you know, we
can help you, you know, reallynot just have the best the
care. And , and you know, we,Bob Kramer has talked a lot
about that we can't sellsickness and care, you know, we
gotta sell , you know, it's theWellSpan not just lifespan and
(15:05):
all of that stuff, but it's ,um, where can you come and we
can help you be a part of beingyour best self? This is not a
period , necessarily a decline,even though that can be a
trigger often for people in ourcommunities. But that it's that
consumer engagement piece thatI, do think feels and looks
differently, but that can be alot of work. That's a cultural
thing. And you mentioned thecontrol word. I think that that
(15:30):
is a different, for lack of aterm, business model and
cultural and in mindset that Idon't think every organization
has these days.
Sean Kelly (15:38):
Yeah for sure. And I guess a couple things. Number
one, you know, the whole notionof, you know, folks staying in
their home or in their home ornot. I would say that in the
whole, the whole idea ofcommunity, especially since
covid at least as you wellknow, has been regenerated to
(15:58):
mean something more than just,I'm on a campus, I'm in a
building, I'm among thesespecific people within this
specific place. And I really dothink that there is an
incredible place for us. Ithink we have an opportunity
and both an opportunity and anobligation to start to play off
of our, if you would, ourexpertise in community. You
know, creating spaces wherepeople have a genuine
(16:19):
opportunity to connect with oneanother and discover things
together that they may notother wise have , uh,
discovered on their own. And inthose things to, to do
different things in theirlives, again, for the wider
world or for themselves or thepeople that they care about.
Um, so, you know, as anexample, we have loads of, if
you would, social connectionprograms, learning programs,
(16:40):
both on the, if you would,market rate and the affordable
side and in between. And, and Ithink those are really, really
important exemplars mm-hmm . As much as they
are also sort of seeding theground for the kinds of
programming that we need toassociate with our market rate
communities in the future.
Right . We're working on aproperty in Los Gatos ,
(17:01):
California. Um, it's a propertythat was closed down. It's an
incredibly , uh, wealthymarketplace. It's been
incredibly difficult to get theentitlements. They seem to be
coming together. And we've gotthis beautiful piece of
property up on the hill. And wewere lucky to have just gotten
this incredible endorsementfrom a planning commission
locally, which, like, you neverget . And a part of why
(17:24):
they offered us thisendorsement was because for the
last year and a half, we'vebeen living out our promise
that what we build there willbe designed to be a linchpin in
the greater community, not justa community unto itself. In
fact, we were able to securesome property along the main
street that gives us directaccess to the walkable
(17:45):
community that is, if youwould, the Los Gatos Town
Center mm-hmm .
And we intend to build out whatwe would describe as a center
for health and wellbeing, whichis designed to deliver so many
of the enriching services andprograms that one might find in
a traditional, if you wouldhigh end C -C-R-C mm-hmm
. But deliverthem out into the wider
community. Mm-hmm. And I do think that there is
(18:08):
a, it , it serves two ways,three ways, you know, it helps
us expand our mission. Um, Ithink it recognizes that
there's an opportunity todiversify revenue, frankly, and
build out , um, you know, apipeline to the community, but
also to, you know, invitepeople to join in with all
(18:28):
kinds of programs that peoplelove. And the last thing that
it does though, it helps morepeople that would never
otherwise think about movinginto a bricks and mortar
community, discover that theremay be more to life, especially
life as they get older thanthey might have guessed. Right.
And I think those sorts ofthings , um, you know, done
well and then scaled and thendone well again, and again and
(18:49):
again are gonna be really,really important. Right . But
they will rely on, you know,you gotta have scale
sophistication, a lot ofresources, a lot of great
partners, and at some level,they're gonna rely on us
finding another way to sourcerevenue to provide for these
services to a wider, if youwould , um, swath of the
(19:09):
marketplace. And that getsinto, you know, what is really
healthcare and where does that$5 trillion really go? And
might it be reallocated tobigger and better things so
that more people can, you know,spend time, money, and effort,
you know, making their lives ,the lives that they want
better, as opposed to trying tofix stuff that's not often very
easily fixable, if at all, atthe day . Right,
Lisa McCracken (19:30):
Right. Well, so yeah, I appreciate that you
went down the path a little bitaround some of the
partnerships. And I love thatthat model where, you know , so
that community integrated modelwhere , um, right, you're not
this isolated entity within agreater community, because I
think the benefits are sogreat, whether on the workforce
side of things, or only for theresidents, for the community
and so forth. So, just wannajust , uh, talk a little bit
(19:53):
around that, that powerpartnership . Because I do
think at the end of the day, Ithink there's benefit to
expanding, you know, whetherit's the continuum of services,
what you do, where you do it,and so forth. But we also can't
always be the end all be allYeah . For everybody. Yeah. We
do know that that scale andsophistication increasingly
matters. It's, it's just, it'scomplicated and increasingly
(20:14):
complicated. So what role doyou see for creative
partnerships in our space andany observations of what you
see within our sector that cansometimes get in the way of
organizations exploring thispartnerships? And maybe if
that, that control word thatyou mentioned previously?
Sean Kelly (20:34):
Yeah. Well, that's, you're leading the witness now.
Lisa McCracken (20:37):
We don't need to go down any case studies ,
Sean Kelly (20:38):
But , but I
, so let's see. You know, the
opportunity is about , I thinkyou're right. I , and I think
for us this has been importanttoo . What is it that we really
do at , at the core ofeverything? And , I do think,
and I've had colleagues , um,Kari Olson, who's the president
of our Center for Innovationand Wellbeing, you know, she's
(20:59):
reminded me over and overagain, that, you know, our core
business is really, you know ,community and, you know, and it
is to generate community in allof its forms, wherever they
may, wherever it may be, anddoesn't require only buildings.
And, and that's so in commonwith, you know, one of the key
values that I've been sort ofbrought up with, it was
(21:20):
reinforced when I was at RLS .
It was even more clarified inmy time at Kendall. And I think
now is the time to see itamplified even more. And in
that community, you know,there's stuff that you want to
do and there's also stuff thatyou need. And among those
things that you need, we do anamazing job at providing for
socialization and carecoordination and, you know,
opportunities to create venues.
(21:42):
And we are amazing conveners,and we can do food and
hospitality and all that otherjazz . We don't necessarily do,
you know, something like a PACEprogram. Right . We certainly
don't do , um, acute care. Wecertainly don't do primary
care. Uh, we certainly don'tprovide insurance, although you
might say long-term , you know,life care versus, and long-term
(22:02):
care insurance reform. And wedo do that, that's fine. But
I'm talking about global riskand the traditional healthcare
insurance. And I thinktherefore, you know, if what
we're trying to do is, youknow, if we had a blank slate
and wanted to deliver thetransformative sort of product
and set a programs for thefuture that would be appealing
and mm-hmm .
(22:23):
Necessary and not just welcome,but enthusiastically embraced,
let's build that out. Let's tryand understand what our role
might be in that, if you would,you know, transformational
product. And then what else dowe need? And just name the
whole handful of some of theothers that we need. And, and
we're lucky enough in this timeand , and spa place in our
(22:44):
sector, Lisa, that we're notalone in sort of recognizing
that the game's gotta change,right . So we've gotta deliver
services and programs that comefrom the heart. We've gotta do
them in a way where we limit,if not eliminate the amount of,
if you would, heat loss orwaste mm-hmm . So
we have to be hyper efficient,while at the same time we have
(23:05):
to understand that investmentin human connection and
relationship building andlistening and engagement has to
also come along for that ride.
And, you know, we've beentalking about, you know,
residents or consumers orcustomers, if you would, I
would submit that the same goesfor the staff mm-hmm
(23:26):
. That we hope tokeep grow with and gain. Mm-hmm
. You know , theytoo, you know, so I'm sitting
here saying, we need to thinkdifferently about what it might
be to become older as we allare doing, we hope. Um, and,
and, you know, to demonstrate adegree of respect that invites
somebody's perspective in and,and expects that that
perspective is gonna actuallymake us better beyond what just
(23:48):
that one person might think orhave to offer. Right. If we're
not doing that with our teams,then, you know, we're just
associating them from aprofessional career where
there's growth, where there aregrowth opportunities as well.
Lisa McCracken (23:58):
Right. I wanna spend a few minutes , um, on
affordability. So as youmentioned earlier, you have
everything from, you know, ahigher end entry fee, CCRC to
you have affordable housing ,um, that you've worked with. So
you know that Nick has spent alot of time on the middle
market and , and that group inthe middle. And you could
argue, you know , we , we needmore of all of the above, you
(24:21):
know, with, with the , youknow, to serve the, the demand
and so forth. But do you haveany insights as how we can do
better as an industry and , andprovide more options for that
middle income older adult? I'mnot expecting you've got the,
the magic formula Yeah . Secretsauce and have it all figured
out. But , um, if you have anypearls of wisdom or insights on
this, just , um, would buff toto hear. Yeah .
Sean Kelly (24:44):
I I I , I do think I, i sure I , I mean, I'd say
this a lot. I remember when Ifirst came to , um, front
porch, and I , I would've saidthe same thing when I first
arrived at Kendall, when I wasintroducing myself to people,
Lisa, I said, listen, you canask me anything and, and I'll
answer. And, and if I know, Iwill tell you that it's
(25:04):
something I know. If I don'tknow, I'll tell you that I
don't know, but I may have anopinion mm-hmm .
Um , in which case it's subjectto change . And I feel
the same way about this. Youknow, and I, I do think that, I
think the stuff we were justtalking about a moment ago
around, if you would, unbundledservices delivered to provide
(25:24):
for care coordination indifferent ways without all of
the, if , if you will,accoutrements that come with a
high end , if you would, oreven a a a a medium N-C-C-R-C
is a part of the answer. And,and it really does acknowledge
that as human beings, we, weseek purpose, we seek one
another out, we seek socialconnection. And, and in doing
(25:47):
so, we often find ways toenrich our own lives in ways
that we otherwise might not.
And, and I think there's a lotin there and that sort of whole
population health strategyaround the social determinants
that, that might help us findour way. And you're still
hearing me, Lisa? My screenjust went. Yeah . Okay. So I ,
I think there's a lot in, inthat, you know, population
(26:09):
health strategy and in thosesocial determinants that, you
know, that that shows us thatthere are means for supporting
people's lives as they age thataren't as wildly expensive.
Right. And wildly difficult tounderstand and access as what
we see in the traditionalhealthcare or sick care system.
(26:31):
Right . So I I do think gettingon that, you know, continuing,
you know, on, in that movementand becoming a more relevant
part of that movement towardreal value based care models
that either partner with orfind some ways to access payer
sources that are as progressedas we think we need to be Yeah
. Is really, really importantOn the real estate side,
listen, housing matters,environments matter. And as
(26:53):
much as I think we need to bedeliver , you know, building
out these service andprogramming hubs that can, that
can be agnostic mm-hmm . To delivery to,
you know, a building or anintentional building or a
greater community where folksare living wherever they live.
Um, we also know that, youknow, when folks are able to be
associated with a communitythat is, you know, condensed,
(27:14):
if you will, into a buildingstructure, it makes service
delivery that much easier.
Mm-hmm . Itcreates economies of scale that
otherwise are harder to accesswhen you're in a wider
community, even withtechnologies. Um, and, and
people dig it, you know, solong as they can afford it, and
so long as they can be tunedinto discovering what that
value proposition might looklike for them. So I do, you
know, I think on some sides ofsenior, the senior living
(27:37):
sector, I think we have to getover ourselves and do a little
bit, you know, it's hard tochange that model where we just
want to give everybodyeverything they might ever
want.
Lisa McCracken (27:46):
We're very good at the service creep.
Sean Kelly (27:47):
Yeah. And , and , and I say the same thing in the
square footage creep and the ,the , the granite countertop
creep and all that other jazz.
But, but there is a middlespace because the , you know ,
right . The other ri the otherrisk is to go all the way
backwards in my opinion, andjust assume that any defunct
from me otherwise not usefulbuilding is just plain good
(28:12):
enough for an older person.
Right. So I , you know, andthere are plenty that are, that
can be, you know, broughtforward and made amazing. And
there are a lot that a lot ofpeople, you know, because, just
because it's the right priceand just because it's in the
right spot , um, you know, backto respecting the person mm-hmm
. Um , you know ,I think on the middle market
(28:32):
side, we've gotta do, I know weneed to do, we at front porch
need to do a lot more work tomine , if you will, the
sensibilities and thepsychographics of that middle
marketplace so that we findthat sweet spot in between ads
just playing good enough. Andit's, you know, we can only
build, you know, the glitz andglamor of the CRCs that we've
(28:53):
always done. So we're workingon that and we have a couple of
cool opportunities , um mm-hmm . In some of our
markets do that. And in somemarkets that we're not in yet
to do that. And I, and Iwelcome it, and that's another
area for partnership, you know?
Yeah . Great . You know, wedon't have to be the, the king
of the, you know, the, themulti-person multifamily , uh,
home builder, but we can be theking of supporting community.
(29:16):
Right . And I think that'sreally our work.
Lisa McCracken (29:18):
Right. So I wanna wrap up with , um, so
we're recording this here, theend of 2024, which seems hard .
I remember when we werecelebrating like Y 2K and
everybody was, that seems likea lifetime ago, which it was.
So we're, we're, we're enteringinto 2025. So anything you'd
like to share about youroutlook for the next year? And,
and to the extent you say, Hey,you know, these are sort of
(29:41):
what I see as , um, goals forus in , in 2025.
Sean Kelly (29:46):
Well, I, you know, we talked a lot about the
consumer and potentialresidents and different markets
and, and so on. We touched onstaff and usually, you know,
Lisa, gosh, better than I , Imean, you talk all over the
place , all over the world allthe time. And, you know, we
didn't spend a lot of time onquote labor or, you know,
workforce leadership. I mean,and, and I think they, they do
(30:08):
talk to each other. And I thinkthere's, so for 2025, I , I
would, I, I know this issomething that we , it's
important to us at Front Porch.
We've sort of , we've adopted anew strategic plan that we just
laid down last in July of thisyear. Um, and among , you know,
we're , we wanna build out aculture where everybody
matters, we aspire to this, andwe wanna make sure that we have
the support systems. We justhired a chief culture and
(30:30):
community officer, oh, by theway, which I'm super proud of,
and that'll be a wholedivision. This is not lip
service to that work. Mm-hmm . And it's, you
know, but anyway, we want todrive that culture. We also
obviously need to focus onperformance and leverage scale
and sophistication and deliversystems and programs that make
us, you know, as good as we canbe and squeeze every, every
single penny out of everydollar that we invest, because
(30:53):
we need to invest it across theboard. And we, of course, are
gonna foc continue to focus ongrowth through our Center for
Innovation and Wellbeing, whichis actively involved and
excited about the differentapplications from AI that go
from the back of the house, youknow, and support our
underlying systems that makethe business run better, to
supporting the front of house ,front of the house delivery
(31:13):
systems, like our partnershipwith Embodied Labs, where we
are literally inviting peopleto change the way they think
about what it is to meetanother person mm-hmm
. And how theymight deliver care service in
the program to that person. Soall that stuff is super cool,
but we're also focusing onleadership. And I guess that's
where I wanna leave off for2025 and what we say about
leadership at Front Porch rightnow, Lisa, and I think it goes
(31:35):
across the board. Number one,it has to be able to play in
the space that you and I weretalking about earlier, to
recognize the differentexpectations in leadership. So
that , um, this is notadministrative work, but it is,
this is not social andrelational work only, but it
sure is that to be sure, thisis not strategic work, but it
is , um, this is, you know,very, very sophisticated
(31:57):
high-end work. And I want us tobe able to shine a light on
what that work is, shine alight on the purpose that folks
have found in that work, andmay still find focus on the
professionalism, what it takesto get to that spot, and how do
we provide the means andmethods for folks to climb LA
that ladder increasingly as weconsolidate, like healthcare
systems have 20 years, 20 yearsor more ago , um, the pay into
(32:21):
this profession is getting upto where I think it must be.
And that's all amazing andimportant . You know , we're
building relationships withcolleges and university and all
that other stuff, but what weneed to do in 2025 in an
element, the other side of ourleadership that we are
demanding of ourselves is to,is to bring a different voice,
a bigger voice into the world,even beyond, you know,
(32:45):
ourselves. Mm-hmm. You know, we mm-hmm
. The cacophonyof ourselves. We are all on
board with the changes thatneed to come and, and we want
to kind of, you know, stick ourchests out and walk into this
next era. The reality, I think,is all the cool stuff that we
may do, all of the inspirationthat comes from our hearts and
minds is, is not going to be asimpactful as it can and maybe
(33:06):
must be unless we can somehowstimulate and probably be a
part of changing the way theworld actually thinks and
discusses what this all means.
Mm-hmm . You knowmm-hmm . Until we
can live in a world wherepeople are really, really not
just tuned into, but inspiredRight . By the things that are
possible in their own lives,right. As they get older, not
(33:29):
just get stuck on listen. And,you know , we talk about this a
lot, it's to be inspired bywhat is possible, what I've yet
to discover in my own life, butnot to ignore that as that life
goes on, stuff changes too, andstuff gets harder too . And I
lose people and things too. AndI can't move around in the same
way that I used to, but I'll bedamned, I can still also though
(33:50):
do more for more and formyself. Right . And, and we
gotta change. We, I , and Iknow it's happening. And
that's, that's a whole otherstory. And I know we have a
couple specific , that'll
Lisa McCracken (34:01):
Be another, that's a future podcast change.
How
Sean Kelly (34:03):
About that ? Yeah.
I mean, and , and I'll tell youthat , that's truly, and, and
you know, listen, there's a , Iwent out to California for a
lot of reasons and, and thepossibility for standing on a
bigger platform and, and yeah .
Getting louder about some ofthis was definitely one of
them. Lisa and I, and I, so Ithink for all of us, that's a
clarion call. And, and I knowit's something we're working on
in 2025 for real. We alwayshave been, but this, it's
(34:26):
getting a little more real aswe move forward. Yeah . So,
well, thank
Lisa McCracken (34:28):
You Sean . I appreciate you sharing your
thoughts and again, given yourtime and appreciate everyone
listening to this Nick Chatspodcast version. If you wanna
access other esteemed guestslike Sean , you can go to our
website and and check them out.
But thank you again, Sean .
Appreciate your time with ustoday.
Sean Kelly (34:44):
Lisa, thank you so much. What a pleasure. And so
good to see you as always. Yeah, likewise.
Lisa McCracken (34:48):
Alright , thank you.
Hi everyone.
Welcome to the NIC Chatspodcast. My name is Lisa
McCracken. I'm the head ofResearch and Analytics with
NIC. Very excited to have todaywith us, Sean Kelly , the
president, CEO of Front Porch,who I've known for many years.
So thank you for carving timeout of your, what I know is a
very busy schedule, Sean , to,to spend some time with me
(00:24):
today and our NIC audience wholistens to these podcasts.
Sean Kelly (00:28):
Well, thank you, Lisa. And, you know, it's my
pleasure and then some. And youalso know , like I think every
other one of us that's workingin this space right now, that
there is nothing other than abusy schedule. And this time of
year, my wife would tell methat there is not a single
person that exists that'spaying attention, that doesn't
have a busy schedule. So,that's right.
Lisa McCracken (00:49):
All good.
That's r ight. I guess betterthan the alternative. So , you
know, Sean , I was thinkingactually about when I first met
you, I've been with NIC alittle over a year, was with
Zeigler for a decade, with waswith Holleran and I'm pretty
sure it was during my Hollerandays. But for the benefit of
our listeners, I would love foryou to just, you know, before
(01:11):
we dig into all these kinds oftrends and your vision for the
future and all that fun stuff,to share a little bit about how
you got into the industry. Ialways think it's interesting
because as we know sometimesit's a crooked path about how
people got into the industry,and it's not always this nice
linear, like, "Hey, I wannagrow up and be in the senior
living business." And I knowyou're doing some work around
all that too. But can you justshare a little bit about how
(01:32):
you got to where you are
Sean Kelly (01:35):
Well, for sure. I, you know, I thought about this
a lot and I've been asked, youknow, we've all been asked this
quite a bit and there are very,very few straight lines. I can
think of a few young folks thatI know who might have it, but
I'll start with maybe not how Igot into it, but Okay.
Reflected for quite a bit on Ithink why I was predisposed to
it, Lisa. And it goes back towhen I was a kid , um, you
(02:00):
know, there are traditionalstories around how people get
in and it's grandparents orsomething happened with direct,
somebody directly related to aperson. But in my case , the
story goes that my brotherPeter and I, you know, we had,
we were mom and apple piegrowing up, and unfortunately
in our formative years, as canhappen in life , our parents
(02:21):
got divorced. Mm-hmm
fourth and sixth grade, and mydad moves us super close to his
parents, very close to where hegrew up. So we spent the
preponderance of our growing uplives, you know, late grammar
school, adolescence, middleschool, high school, et cetera.
And thereafter, even in somecases , not just close to our
(02:42):
grandparents, but very often,like completely immersed in
their lives. Mm-hmm
you know, my grandmother, mydad's mom was, you know, from
the town where they lived. Shewas incredibly social. She was
incredibly kind in every way,you know, whether it's at
church or at the schools or theneighborhood. And she had a ton
(03:03):
of friends and family aroundher. And as the story goes
there, she would have, onTuesdays, she would have her
friends come over and somefamily members to get their
hair done. Like to the pointwhere in my grandparents'
laundry room on the firstfloor, there was one of those
old fashioned hair dryersthat's like a spaceship. Oh, I
(03:23):
know . Yeah , yeah. You know,the big chair , the spaceship
goes on. And there was a womanthat whom I know well, that
would come in and do theirhair. And I'd often be there,
you know, I'd be watching TVand this big Kitchen, and
everybody's, you know, they'resmoking, this is in the
seventies, you know, they'resmoking, they're drinking,
they're getting their hairdone, they're talking about
stuff. And they noticed that Iwas always curious about what
(03:47):
they were drinking, and theywere drinking high balls in
these high ball glasses. And itwas a different color from the
milk, orange juice or Coke thatI was drinking. And at a point
in time, I would ask, and mygrandmother always saying , oh,
we're just having some booze.
Well, they wanted me to feel apart of what they were doing so
much that they made me my ownbooze
(04:08):
booze to create that brownishcolor was made out of Coca-Cola
and Tropicana Orange juice. Sothat became, so they, my point
is they invited me in and I wasjust sort of one of the gang
from the time that I was asuper young kid. That was
number one, number two, in thatsame house, my grandfather, my
grandmother's husband was the,was the doctor in the town
(04:32):
where they lived. Mm-hmm
one, doctors to have done housecalls. If you've seen Field of
Dreams. My grandfather bore astriking resemblance to
Moonlight Graham mm-hmm
And in the way that he, youknow, carried the bag in a
trench coat, a commandingpresence and so forth, he was
also incredibly generous andkind mm-hmm
(04:54):
in that same house where mybrother and I were often, where
my aunts and uncles, my dad'syounger siblings had mostly
gone off , we would be with mygrandparents, we'd have these
events with their friends, butmy grandfather would also reach
out to patients of his whodidn't have a way forward or a
way out or someone to networkwith or, or someone , uh, a
(05:16):
place to live a community. Andthere were more than a handful
of his patients and patientsrelations that lived in that
house over periods of time,literally lived there. And if
they didn't live there or theylived there for a while ,
they'd be back for Thanksgivingdinner or for Christmas. It was
amazing. And I, you know, itwas not unusual for me to be
(05:38):
sitting around and talking to aperson when I was 12 years old
about , you know, what hethought it was like coming
outta the battle of the bulge,you know? Wow . Or what it was
like to be , uh, a youngprofessional woman, you know,
working in the forties andfifties mm-hmm
And I just, so that was sort ofalways in me, you know. And ,
um, once I got exposed to quotesenior living , uh, just by
(06:03):
chance I was working for aconstruction manager, I got
introduced to development, andthen I was very lucky to , um,
to have been given a chance tomeet and work with Avery
Rockefeller, Rockefeller andDoug Powell particularly, and,
and really get close to whatthis business was mm-hmm
not about building buildings,it's not about transactions.
(06:23):
And God knows Lisa, it's notabout, you know, everyone's
stereotype of what a nursinghome is. Right . And a lot more
to be said about that. So I wasquick to discover kind of what
quote , senior living at itsbest could be through the eyes
and brains and actions andgenerosity, particularly of
Avery and Doug . Mm-hmm
(06:46):
of taken by, this is alifestyle that my grandparents,
my grandmother especially,would have so thrived in mm-hmm
idea. Right . Not the foggiestidea that it was even a thing.
So, you know, the rest is kindof history. And then I, I was
very, very fortunate to be, youknow, around some really
amazing people. I did a lot ofwork with, you know ,
(07:08):
retirement living services. Iwas really kind of, I had an
itch to scratch to get close toa provider. And I was very,
very fortunate to have JohnDiffy be, you know , among my,
many, many mentors, and I stillhave him . Um, Judy Braun, our
Chief operating officer, taughtme more about human connection
as it relates to operationsthan almost anybody I've met.
(07:30):
Mm-hmm
been so generous with me overthe years, and, and I've
learned a lot. So, you know, Icame to this like, like most,
you know, crooked path byaccident, but it's very, very
clear to me anyway, that I'm,I'm doing, I think I'm doing
the work that I'm supposed tobe doing. Yeah.
Lisa McCracken (07:48):
Um , that is so awesome. And I would've loved
to have met your grandparents
fascinating people. And that'swhere , I mean, the thing that
I appreciate about this sectoris, I feel like there is an
opportunity for that personalconnection and living your life
story in many ways. And I, Ithink we need to continue to do
a better job of, of talkingabout that, because it can be a
(08:09):
very fulfilling sector.
Sean Kelly (08:13):
I agree with you.
And I think there's a whole lotof discussion around where are
we going and, you know, thatpersonal connection or that
personal connectivity that ifyou would, purpose mining is,
is really fundamental to whatit is that drives a person, any
person, especially an olderperson. And I think needs to be
(08:35):
kind of at the top of our mindswhen we think about the kinds
of experiences that we hope to, uh, provide for, nourish,
foster when it comes toinviting people into the
communities or services that weprovide.
Lisa McCracken (08:48):
Well, I think that's a good segue into what I
wanna spend a few minutes on,so it's the customer or
consumer, whatever you callthem. And we've been talking
about the baby boomers, youknow, forever, and they're
really, they are here now, youknow, in some communities a
little bit more than others.
And we've been talking a lotabout how they have different
needs and you know, they'regonna have different
(09:09):
preferences and we need toadapt and so forth. So I'd love
to know your thoughts in termsof, first of all,
fundamentally, do you thinkthat they are a different
cohort and customer than whatwe served in the past? And are
we prepared? Are we ready? Andwhat do you think, you know, if
not, what needs to evolve forus to be relevant? I think one
of the things I do worry abouta little bit is we talk about,
(09:31):
oh, the demographic wave and soforth, is that we get a little
complacent and just think, youknow, Hey, we can prop up our
feet because there's this hugeplethora of seniors and, you
know, many have the ability topay and they're gonna come in
our doors . So I just, it'llallow for you to do a little
bit of , uh , a brain dump onwhat you see. Is that consumer
Sean Kelly (09:52):
Good luck with that. A brain dump.
Lisa McCracken (09:56):
For the next two hours.
Sean Kelly (09:57):
It's pretty empty, Yeah , it's a lot of fairly
empty in there. I am startingto replace some Seinfeld trivia
with other relevant stuff,Lisa, but yeah , the boomers
are different. Listen, we'vebeen talking about this
"boomers are different" for 20years. They're not different
from everybody, though, youknow, on mass, you know, we had
heard that the baby boomers aregonna be a lot more demanding.
(10:18):
They were going to , um, demandtransparency. They were going
to quote , "demand a seat atthe table." They were going to
want to have input, not wantdemand to have input in what
they, what you are doing as aprovider. Um, they have an
expectation that they're notjust, you know, living in a
community or living in abuilding, but joining a
movement in many cases, youknow, most of these folks are
(10:40):
recognizing that if they are tochoose into community, whether
it's bricks and mortar or thatof another sort, that they not
only need to know what it isthat they might get from that
community, but what might theygive to it, and what point of
view might that community have,you know, what, what measures
for advocacy and volunteerismand other things that go along
with living a life can befueled by this community that
(11:02):
they may or may not choose. So,you know, I think at the end of
the day, and I say that's not,you know, not, there are a lot
of people that have been aroundthe block many, many times
before the baby boomers eversort of came of age. And I was
lucky, I think, to have beenincredibly well exposed to the
whole notion of just let's,none of this works unless we
(11:23):
listen. Um, when I was growingup in this business, learning
about what it might take togenerate a development that
would attract people to comeand live and grow and, you
know, spend their lives , thething that was beat into my
head always was, you've gottapay attention to what it is
that people say that they want.
What's important to them? Andhow does that manifest in the
(11:45):
programs and the services andthe properties that you might
provide? If you aren't willingto spend the time to listen,
you're very likely, at best, todeliver something that's not
gonna be relevant to the marketthat you hope to serve. And
then I go to Kendall, you know,an amazing organization Born A
Quaker Values that , you know,and those values are the very
(12:07):
core insist that in everysingle being, every single
person, there is something tobe honored, something to be
heard, something to be soughtafter
that's always resonated withme. It's been lifeblood for
Kendall, and I've had a chanceto interact with, you know,
people on the provider sidethrough my Kendall
affiliations, and of course thepeople that have chosen into
(12:30):
that lifestyle over many, manyyears. So I fast forward to
today, and here I am at FrontPorch, and the game is changing
all around us. And we haveamazing people that are on the,
on the provider sort of staffside that are super inclined to
demonstrate the degrees ofrespect that invite questions
(12:52):
and commentary and advice andcounsel across, you know, our
populations of residents andthose folks that participate in
our programs. Mm-hmm
said that, you know, there arealso lots of folks that really
kind of gripped the arms ontheir chairs really, really
tightly, because inviting allof that dialogue , inviting all
(13:13):
of that engagement canabsolutely feel like, and
sometimes result in a loss ofcontrol or chaos. Mm-hmm
truly creating venues wherefolks, residents and staff,
frankly, and future residents,future consumers, where they
(13:35):
have an opportunity to learnabout what you're doing, why
you are doing it, and wherethey are genuinely sought for
counsel advice and what mattersto them. If you would, you
know, those are table stakes.
Yeah. We have to know how to beable to do that because Yeah .
And , and oh, by the way, Lisa,yes. The bricks and mortar
matter Yes. The quality of theprogramming matters. Yes. The
(13:57):
cost matters and where it ismatters, and is it up to date
matter , all that stuffmatters. And so does the
environment into which you areinviting people to become a
member of any community thatyou have an association with.
So yeah, it's changed. I wouldjust offer that it's now, you
know, that to me that was the,you know, 10 to 20% of the
crowd that we've served, thisis now the 80 to 90% of the
(14:20):
crowd that we intend to serve.
Lisa McCracken (14:22):
Yeah. I appreciate you. And I feel like
intuitively, I've known thatand you can feel that in
certain organizations versusothers, but I've never heard
somebody detail that as much interms of, okay, what can you
get by coming here, but whatcan you give? And I do think
because it's easier, you know,it's easier to stay in your own
home these days. Now, again, ifyou can afford it, and we will
(14:44):
talk a little bit about theaffordability piece. Yeah .
But, it's, you know, where arewe positioning as, you know, we
can help you, you know, reallynot just have the best the
care. And , and you know, we,Bob Kramer has talked a lot
about that we can't sellsickness and care, you know, we
gotta sell , you know, it's theWellSpan not just lifespan and
(15:05):
all of that stuff, but it's ,um, where can you come and we
can help you be a part of beingyour best self? This is not a
period , necessarily a decline,even though that can be a
trigger often for people in ourcommunities. But that it's that
consumer engagement piece thatI, do think feels and looks
differently, but that can be alot of work. That's a cultural
thing. And you mentioned thecontrol word. I think that that
(15:30):
is a different, for lack of aterm, business model and
cultural and in mindset that Idon't think every organization
has these days.
Sean Kelly (15:38):
Yeah for sure. And I guess a couple things. Number
one, you know, the whole notionof, you know, folks staying in
their home or in their home ornot. I would say that in the
whole, the whole idea ofcommunity, especially since
covid at least as you wellknow, has been regenerated to
(15:58):
mean something more than just,I'm on a campus, I'm in a
building, I'm among thesespecific people within this
specific place. And I really dothink that there is an
incredible place for us. Ithink we have an opportunity
and both an opportunity and anobligation to start to play off
of our, if you would, ourexpertise in community. You
know, creating spaces wherepeople have a genuine
(16:19):
opportunity to connect with oneanother and discover things
together that they may notother wise have , uh,
discovered on their own. And inthose things to, to do
different things in theirlives, again, for the wider
world or for themselves or thepeople that they care about.
Um, so, you know, as anexample, we have loads of, if
you would, social connectionprograms, learning programs,
(16:40):
both on the, if you would,market rate and the affordable
side and in between. And, and Ithink those are really, really
important exemplars mm-hmm
are also sort of seeding theground for the kinds of
programming that we need toassociate with our market rate
communities in the future.
Right . We're working on aproperty in Los Gatos ,
(17:01):
California. Um, it's a propertythat was closed down. It's an
incredibly , uh, wealthymarketplace. It's been
incredibly difficult to get theentitlements. They seem to be
coming together. And we've gotthis beautiful piece of
property up on the hill. And wewere lucky to have just gotten
this incredible endorsementfrom a planning commission
locally, which, like, you neverget
(17:24):
they offered us thisendorsement was because for the
last year and a half, we'vebeen living out our promise
that what we build there willbe designed to be a linchpin in
the greater community, not justa community unto itself. In
fact, we were able to securesome property along the main
street that gives us directaccess to the walkable
(17:45):
community that is, if youwould, the Los Gatos Town
Center mm-hmm
And we intend to build out whatwe would describe as a center
for health and wellbeing, whichis designed to deliver so many
of the enriching services andprograms that one might find in
a traditional, if you wouldhigh end C -C-R-C mm-hmm
community. Mm-hmm
(18:08):
a, it , it serves two ways,three ways, you know, it helps
us expand our mission. Um, Ithink it recognizes that
there's an opportunity todiversify revenue, frankly, and
build out , um, you know, apipeline to the community, but
also to, you know, invitepeople to join in with all
(18:28):
kinds of programs that peoplelove. And the last thing that
it does though, it helps morepeople that would never
otherwise think about movinginto a bricks and mortar
community, discover that theremay be more to life, especially
life as they get older thanthey might have guessed. Right.
And I think those sorts ofthings , um, you know, done
well and then scaled and thendone well again, and again and
(18:49):
again are gonna be really,really important. Right . But
they will rely on, you know,you gotta have scale
sophistication, a lot ofresources, a lot of great
partners, and at some level,they're gonna rely on us
finding another way to sourcerevenue to provide for these
services to a wider, if youwould , um, swath of the
(19:09):
marketplace. And that getsinto, you know, what is really
healthcare and where does that$5 trillion really go? And
might it be reallocated tobigger and better things so
that more people can, you know,spend time, money, and effort,
you know, making their lives ,the lives that they want
better, as opposed to trying tofix stuff that's not often very
easily fixable, if at all, atthe day . Right,
Lisa McCracken (19:30):
Right. Well, so yeah, I appreciate that you
went down the path a little bitaround some of the
partnerships. And I love thatthat model where, you know , so
that community integrated modelwhere , um, right, you're not
this isolated entity within agreater community, because I
think the benefits are sogreat, whether on the workforce
side of things, or only for theresidents, for the community
and so forth. So, just wannajust , uh, talk a little bit
(19:53):
around that, that powerpartnership . Because I do
think at the end of the day, Ithink there's benefit to
expanding, you know, whetherit's the continuum of services,
what you do, where you do it,and so forth. But we also can't
always be the end all be allYeah . For everybody. Yeah. We
do know that that scale andsophistication increasingly
matters. It's, it's just, it'scomplicated and increasingly
(20:14):
complicated. So what role doyou see for creative
partnerships in our space andany observations of what you
see within our sector that cansometimes get in the way of
organizations exploring thispartnerships? And maybe if
that, that control word thatyou mentioned previously?
Sean Kelly (20:34):
Yeah. Well, that's, you're leading the witness now.
Lisa McCracken (20:37):
We don't need to go down any case studies ,
Sean Kelly (20:38):
But
opportunity is about , I thinkyou're right. I , and I think
for us this has been importanttoo . What is it that we really
do at , at the core ofeverything? And , I do think,
and I've had colleagues , um,Kari Olson, who's the president
of our Center for Innovationand Wellbeing, you know, she's
(20:59):
reminded me over and overagain, that, you know, our core
business is really, you know ,community and, you know, and it
is to generate community in allof its forms, wherever they
may, wherever it may be, anddoesn't require only buildings.
And, and that's so in commonwith, you know, one of the key
values that I've been sort ofbrought up with, it was
(21:20):
reinforced when I was at RLS .
It was even more clarified inmy time at Kendall. And I think
now is the time to see itamplified even more. And in
that community, you know,there's stuff that you want to
do and there's also stuff thatyou need. And among those
things that you need, we do anamazing job at providing for
socialization and carecoordination and, you know,
opportunities to create venues.
(21:42):
And we are amazing conveners,and we can do food and
hospitality and all that otherjazz . We don't necessarily do,
you know, something like a PACEprogram. Right . We certainly
don't do , um, acute care. Wecertainly don't do primary
care. Uh, we certainly don'tprovide insurance, although you
might say long-term , you know,life care versus, and long-term
(22:02):
care insurance reform. And wedo do that, that's fine. But
I'm talking about global riskand the traditional healthcare
insurance. And I thinktherefore, you know, if what
we're trying to do is, youknow, if we had a blank slate
and wanted to deliver thetransformative sort of product
and set a programs for thefuture that would be appealing
and mm-hmm
(22:23):
Necessary and not just welcome,but enthusiastically embraced,
let's build that out. Let's tryand understand what our role
might be in that, if you would,you know, transformational
product. And then what else dowe need? And just name the
whole handful of some of theothers that we need. And, and
we're lucky enough in this timeand , and spa place in our
(22:44):
sector, Lisa, that we're notalone in sort of recognizing
that the game's gotta change,right . So we've gotta deliver
services and programs that comefrom the heart. We've gotta do
them in a way where we limit,if not eliminate the amount of,
if you would, heat loss orwaste mm-hmm
we have to be hyper efficient,while at the same time we have
(23:05):
to understand that investmentin human connection and
relationship building andlistening and engagement has to
also come along for that ride.
And, you know, we've beentalking about, you know,
residents or consumers orcustomers, if you would, I
would submit that the same goesfor the staff mm-hmm
(23:26):
here saying, we need to thinkdifferently about what it might
be to become older as we allare doing, we hope. Um, and,
and, you know, to demonstrate adegree of respect that invites
somebody's perspective in and,and expects that that
perspective is gonna actuallymake us better beyond what just
(23:48):
that one person might think orhave to offer. Right. If we're
not doing that with our teams,then, you know, we're just
associating them from aprofessional career where
there's growth, where there aregrowth opportunities as well.
Lisa McCracken (23:58):
Right. I wanna spend a few minutes , um, on
affordability. So as youmentioned earlier, you have
everything from, you know, ahigher end entry fee, CCRC to
you have affordable housing ,um, that you've worked with. So
you know that Nick has spent alot of time on the middle
market and , and that group inthe middle. And you could
argue, you know , we , we needmore of all of the above, you
(24:21):
know, with, with the , youknow, to serve the, the demand
and so forth. But do you haveany insights as how we can do
better as an industry and , andprovide more options for that
middle income older adult? I'mnot expecting you've got the,
the magic formula Yeah . Secretsauce and have it all figured
out. But , um, if you have anypearls of wisdom or insights on
this, just , um, would buff toto hear. Yeah .
Sean Kelly (24:44):
I I I , I do think I, i sure I , I mean, I'd say
this a lot. I remember when Ifirst came to , um, front
porch, and I , I would've saidthe same thing when I first
arrived at Kendall, when I wasintroducing myself to people,
Lisa, I said, listen, you canask me anything and, and I'll
answer. And, and if I know, Iwill tell you that it's
(25:04):
something I know. If I don'tknow, I'll tell you that I
don't know, but I may have anopinion mm-hmm
Um , in which case it's subjectto change
the same way about this. Youknow, and I, I do think that, I
think the stuff we were justtalking about a moment ago
around, if you would, unbundledservices delivered to provide
(25:24):
for care coordination indifferent ways without all of
the, if , if you will,accoutrements that come with a
high end , if you would, oreven a a a a medium N-C-C-R-C
is a part of the answer. And,and it really does acknowledge
that as human beings, we, weseek purpose, we seek one
another out, we seek socialconnection. And, and in doing
(25:47):
so, we often find ways toenrich our own lives in ways
that we otherwise might not.
And, and I think there's a lotin there and that sort of whole
population health strategyaround the social determinants
that, that might help us findour way. And you're still
hearing me, Lisa? My screenjust went. Yeah . Okay. So I ,
I think there's a lot in, inthat, you know, population
(26:09):
health strategy and in thosesocial determinants that, you
know, that that shows us thatthere are means for supporting
people's lives as they age thataren't as wildly expensive.
Right. And wildly difficult tounderstand and access as what
we see in the traditionalhealthcare or sick care system.
(26:31):
Right . So I I do think gettingon that, you know, continuing,
you know, on, in that movementand becoming a more relevant
part of that movement towardreal value based care models
that either partner with orfind some ways to access payer
sources that are as progressedas we think we need to be Yeah
. Is really, really importantOn the real estate side,
listen, housing matters,environments matter. And as
(26:53):
much as I think we need to bedeliver , you know, building
out these service andprogramming hubs that can, that
can be agnostic mm-hmm
you know, a building or anintentional building or a
greater community where folksare living wherever they live.
Um, we also know that, youknow, when folks are able to be
associated with a communitythat is, you know, condensed,
(27:14):
if you will, into a buildingstructure, it makes service
delivery that much easier.
Mm-hmm
otherwise are harder to accesswhen you're in a wider
community, even withtechnologies. Um, and, and
people dig it, you know, solong as they can afford it, and
so long as they can be tunedinto discovering what that
value proposition might looklike for them. So I do, you
know, I think on some sides ofsenior, the senior living
(27:37):
sector, I think we have to getover ourselves and do a little
bit, you know, it's hard tochange that model where we just
want to give everybodyeverything they might ever
want.
Lisa McCracken (27:46):
We're very good at the service creep.
Sean Kelly (27:47):
Yeah. And , and , and I say the same thing in the
square footage creep and the ,the , the granite countertop
creep and all that other jazz.
But, but there is a middlespace because the , you know ,
right . The other ri the otherrisk is to go all the way
backwards in my opinion, andjust assume that any defunct
from me otherwise not usefulbuilding is just plain good
(28:12):
enough for an older person.
Right. So I , you know, andthere are plenty that are, that
can be, you know, broughtforward and made amazing. And
there are a lot that a lot ofpeople, you know, because, just
because it's the right priceand just because it's in the
right spot , um, you know, backto respecting the person mm-hmm
(28:32):
side, we've gotta do, I know weneed to do, we at front porch
need to do a lot more work tomine , if you will, the
sensibilities and thepsychographics of that middle
marketplace so that we findthat sweet spot in between ads
just playing good enough. Andit's, you know, we can only
build, you know, the glitz andglamor of the CRCs that we've
(28:53):
always done. So we're workingon that and we have a couple of
cool opportunities , um mm-hmm
markets do that. And in somemarkets that we're not in yet
to do that. And I, and Iwelcome it, and that's another
area for partnership, you know?
Yeah . Great . You know, wedon't have to be the, the king
of the, you know, the, themulti-person multifamily , uh,
home builder, but we can be theking of supporting community.
(29:16):
Right . And I think that'sreally our work.
Lisa McCracken (29:18):
Right. So I wanna wrap up with , um, so
we're recording this here, theend of 2024, which seems hard .
I remember when we werecelebrating like Y 2K and
everybody was, that seems likea lifetime ago, which it was.
So we're, we're, we're enteringinto 2025. So anything you'd
like to share about youroutlook for the next year? And,
and to the extent you say, Hey,you know, these are sort of
(29:41):
what I see as , um, goals forus in , in 2025.
Sean Kelly (29:46):
Well, I, you know, we talked a lot about the
consumer and potentialresidents and different markets
and, and so on. We touched onstaff and usually, you know,
Lisa, gosh, better than I , Imean, you talk all over the
place , all over the world allthe time. And, you know, we
didn't spend a lot of time onquote labor or, you know,
workforce leadership. I mean,and, and I think they, they do
(30:08):
talk to each other. And I thinkthere's, so for 2025, I , I
would, I, I know this issomething that we , it's
important to us at Front Porch.
We've sort of , we've adopted anew strategic plan that we just
laid down last in July of thisyear. Um, and among , you know,
we're , we wanna build out aculture where everybody
matters, we aspire to this, andwe wanna make sure that we have
the support systems. We justhired a chief culture and
(30:30):
community officer, oh, by theway, which I'm super proud of,
and that'll be a wholedivision. This is not lip
service to that work. Mm-hmm
know, but anyway, we want todrive that culture. We also
obviously need to focus onperformance and leverage scale
and sophistication and deliversystems and programs that make
us, you know, as good as we canbe and squeeze every, every
single penny out of everydollar that we invest, because
(30:53):
we need to invest it across theboard. And we, of course, are
gonna foc continue to focus ongrowth through our Center for
Innovation and Wellbeing, whichis actively involved and
excited about the differentapplications from AI that go
from the back of the house, youknow, and support our
underlying systems that makethe business run better, to
supporting the front of house ,front of the house delivery
(31:13):
systems, like our partnershipwith Embodied Labs, where we
are literally inviting peopleto change the way they think
about what it is to meetanother person mm-hmm
the program to that person. Soall that stuff is super cool,
but we're also focusing onleadership. And I guess that's
where I wanna leave off for2025 and what we say about
leadership at Front Porch rightnow, Lisa, and I think it goes
(31:35):
across the board. Number one,it has to be able to play in
the space that you and I weretalking about earlier, to
recognize the differentexpectations in leadership. So
that , um, this is notadministrative work, but it is,
this is not social andrelational work only, but it
sure is that to be sure, thisis not strategic work, but it
is , um, this is, you know,very, very sophisticated
(31:57):
high-end work. And I want us tobe able to shine a light on
what that work is, shine alight on the purpose that folks
have found in that work, andmay still find focus on the
professionalism, what it takesto get to that spot, and how do
we provide the means andmethods for folks to climb LA
that ladder increasingly as weconsolidate, like healthcare
systems have 20 years, 20 yearsor more ago , um, the pay into
(32:21):
this profession is getting upto where I think it must be.
And that's all amazing andimportant . You know , we're
building relationships withcolleges and university and all
that other stuff, but what weneed to do in 2025 in an
element, the other side of ourleadership that we are
demanding of ourselves is to,is to bring a different voice,
a bigger voice into the world,even beyond, you know,
(32:45):
ourselves. Mm-hmm
board with the changes thatneed to come and, and we want
to kind of, you know, stick ourchests out and walk into this
next era. The reality, I think,is all the cool stuff that we
may do, all of the inspirationthat comes from our hearts and
minds is, is not going to be asimpactful as it can and maybe
(33:06):
must be unless we can somehowstimulate and probably be a
part of changing the way theworld actually thinks and
discusses what this all means.
Mm-hmm
can live in a world wherepeople are really, really not
just tuned into, but inspiredRight . By the things that are
possible in their own lives,right. As they get older, not
(33:29):
just get stuck on listen. And,you know , we talk about this a
lot, it's to be inspired bywhat is possible, what I've yet
to discover in my own life, butnot to ignore that as that life
goes on, stuff changes too, andstuff gets harder too . And I
lose people and things too. AndI can't move around in the same
way that I used to, but I'll bedamned, I can still also though
(33:50):
do more for more and formyself. Right . And, and we
gotta change. We, I , and Iknow it's happening. And
that's, that's a whole otherstory. And I know we have a
couple specific , that'll
Lisa McCracken (34:01):
Be another, that's a future podcast change.
How
Sean Kelly (34:03):
About that ? Yeah.
I mean, and , and I'll tell youthat , that's truly, and, and
you know, listen, there's a , Iwent out to California for a
lot of reasons and, and thepossibility for standing on a
bigger platform and, and yeah .
Getting louder about some ofthis was definitely one of
them. Lisa and I, and I, so Ithink for all of us, that's a
clarion call. And, and I knowit's something we're working on
in 2025 for real. We alwayshave been, but this, it's
(34:26):
getting a little more real aswe move forward. Yeah . So,
well, thank
Lisa McCracken (34:28):
You Sean . I appreciate you sharing your
thoughts and again, given yourtime and appreciate everyone
listening to this Nick Chatspodcast version. If you wanna
access other esteemed guestslike Sean , you can go to our
website and and check them out.
But thank you again, Sean .
Appreciate your time with ustoday.
Sean Kelly (34:44):
Lisa, thank you so much. What a pleasure. And so
good to see you as always. Yeah, likewise.
Lisa McCracken (34:48):
Alright , thank you.
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