Lessons From the Brink of Death

Episode Transcript
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Sam Alaimo (00:03):
This is the No Bell podcast where we talk about how
to optimize your technology,life, and mind. We're joined by
special operations veterans,entrepreneurs, investors, and
others who have overcomedifficulty to make it to the top
of their craft by staying in thefight.

Rob Huberty (00:23):
Welcome to the No Bell podcast. Today, it is my
honor to take a complete totallegend from the FBI. Ed Mireles,
they write books about you.You've written books. You are
taught to new agents.
Welcome to the No Bell podcast.

Ed Mireles (00:38):
Well, thank you. Thank you, Rob. It's a pleasure
to be here. And you know whatthough? I think my reputation is
overstated, know, I'm just aregular guy.
So

my brother is an agent. You know, when I said
that I'd have the opportunity totalk to you, he said, you know,
I had the honor to shake yourhand when he went through
Quantico. That Quantico, a lotof the lessons that you learned
in real life are now every agentthat has gone through
subsequently is taught thelessons that you learned and
that makes them better agentstoday. So Right. You can be

(01:08):
humble about it, but you you arean absolute FBI legend.
So let's get into it.

Ed Mireles (01:14):
Where did where'd you grow up? Well I was born in
Alice, Texas which is somewherearound between San Antonio and
Corpus Christi, Texas on thecoast. And I lived there for six
years and then my dad got a jobin another town so we moved to
an area called Beeville, B EEville. And people have always

(01:35):
asked me, say hey, do they havea lot of bees there? I mean,
that's a logical question.
But no, it was named after a warbetween Texas and Mexico.
Colonel Bee, okay, he settled inthat area and he was a pretty
pretty good legend himself downin Texas. So just became, hey,
let's go to B's place. Became BBill, that's where I grew up.

(02:00):
And I had typical life.
I was born in the fifties. I'm aproduct of the fifties. I know
that probably seems like ancienthistory to some of your
listeners, know. But I mean,nuclear family, mother, father,
I had a brother and two sisters,school, church, hard work, know.
And I tell people, I said, hey,I had no idea what air

(02:22):
conditioning was until I was 18.

In Texas.

Ed Mireles (02:26):
I mean, we lived in South Texas with no AC. So it
makes hardy people to say atleast. So I mean, I had a great
upbringing, family, everythingwas family and dedication to
work and civic duty. Mean, atthe time when I was a young kid,
I didn't know what civic dutywas, but it was basically do the

(02:50):
right thing always. And thenVietnam was going on at the same
time and some of my uncles andcousins had been called to
serve.
As it turned out, I got a draftnotice like in 1971, and I'm
thinking, geez, you know, Igotta go. Know, and I'm just
getting ready to graduate fromhigh school. So I said, you know

(03:13):
what? Forget this. You know, I'mgonna I'm gonna follow in my
uncles and cousins' footstepsbecause they were all marines.
So I said, well I went downthere and enlisted in the
marines. And then my tie came upfor reporting and I reported in
September of 'seventy one andwent to boot camp in San Diego.

(03:33):
That's the first time I'd everbeen out of the little Podunk
town. I tell you what, San Diegois like Paris to me. It's like,
holy moly, look at this place.
So then I went to boot camp, andI had the absolute living crap
beat out of me. You know? Sothat was an awakening.

So leading into that, the lifestyle that that
led to that, you said youlearned civic duty, but you had
family members that served. Yousaw a call to service at that
time.

Ed Mireles (04:00):
Right.

Were you were you into sports growing up? Were you
a good kid, a bad kid? Did youever get into trouble?

Ed Mireles (04:06):
Well, depends on who you ask, know. So I I probably
had a checkered background,know. No. But I I mean, when I
think about it, our school was Idon't wanna say gangs, but
groups. You know, you had thejocks.
I I was one of the jocks. Andthen you had the cowboys because
we're in Texas. Okay. And thenyou had the I don't even know
what we they weren't hippiesback then, but they were like

(04:28):
the surfers. That's what it was.
The surfer boys. You know? Soyou had the surfers, the the the
cowboys, and the jocks. Youknow? So, you know, I was part
of the jockey because I I Iplayed football, basketball, ran
track.
I mean, was always a season forsomething, you know, and then,
you know, I found out real quickthat I wasn't a basketball

(04:48):
player. You know? So

Why is that?

Ed Mireles (04:51):
Because I was just totally uncoordinated, you know.
Plus, you know, I wasn't tall. Imean, I'm six feet tall, but,
man, I was going up against somesix four, six six kids, man. I
was like, holy moly, man. Imean, they're they're they're
tough to to compete against, youknow.
So so I I stuck to track and andfootball.

What position did you play at football?

Ed Mireles (05:10):
I was a defensive man. I tell you what, I love
that position, man. It was justgreat. I mean, I was almost like
a linebacker. You know howlinebackers can float back and
forth.
You know? Speaking oflinebackers, one of my heroes
was Dick Butkus from the Chicagobears. What a bruiser that is.

Mean mean as could be.

Ed Mireles (05:27):
I tell you what though. I mean, I I I fashioned
myself after Dick Butkus, but Iwas just a skinny hundred fifty
pound kid.

Very cool. The so you like smashing people?

Ed Mireles (05:39):
Oh, yeah. You know, but I tell you what though, we
played some some some teams. Ithought I was pretty tough,
know. When I graduated from highschool, was one sixty five. And
I'm telling you, Rob, you know,we we we would go to some of
these small towns in in SouthTexas.
Holy moly, man. We ran we ranacross some bruisers. I mean,

(05:59):
good old farm boys. I mean, I'mtalking like, you know, I was
about six feet tall, one sixty.I ran across some big, strong,
strapping, hard working farmboys that were like six four,
weighed two twenty five, theyknocked the bejesus out of me.
Came from good stock. I thinkthey were German or Polish or

(06:21):
something from that part ofTexas, know, and they just I
mean, we always lost to them,you know, because they we just,
you know, they outweighed uslike by 30%, you know. So

Farm work makes tough people, so that's Oh,
yeah. That's tough to competewith. Yeah. So you grew up
playing sports. You ended up inthe marine corps.
Were were you 18 when you wentin the marines?

Ed Mireles (06:40):
Yeah. I was 18. Yeah. Like I said, I got I got a
draft notice, you know, backthen that, know, I don't know
whether people know what thedraft is, but but back then, you
know, they were they would callyou up. Uncle Sam would send you
a letter greeting, so all whoshall see these presents.
We are offering mister Morales afour year paid vacation, you
know. If you don't show up,we'll come find you, you know.

(07:02):
And I'm like, okay. I bettershow up.

You get on an airplane to fly to San Diego?

Ed Mireles (07:06):
Yeah. That's my first time ever on an airplane.
It was it was just fantastic.And like I said, I mean, it's
like a a little little countryhick boy, you know, leaving the
the small town going to the bigcity, you know. You know, when I
got to San Diego, I thought,man, I got I've been to town and
seen the elephant, man.
This is pretty cool, you know.Pretty cool.

It's interesting. Think for a lot of people going
to boot camp, that's their firsttime on an airplane. Even today,
that still occurs when

Ed Mireles (07:29):
I went to boot camp. Oh, no. You know what? The day
in a case today are spoiled. Mymy kids, I mean, they were they
were on an airplane when theywere You know?
I mean, it's like they they flewall over with us, know? So
they're absolutely spoiledrotten kids, know? So

So what was your marine experience like?

Ed Mireles (07:45):
It it was it was tense, know? I had no idea. You
know? Everything was gearedtowards training for the Vietnam
War, you know, and andeverything, you know, like like
good instructors, you know, theywere trying to give you all, you
know, all their knowledge, thebenefit of their experience, and
stuff like that to keep youalive, know. I mean, boot camp
was boot camp.
You know, they they take rawmaterial and and they they like

(08:06):
taking a piece of iron ore, andyou heat it up and you melt it
and then you form it intowhatever you wanna form it into.
I don't wanna sound cliche ish,but they were forming us into
swords. But it was tough. Andthen after boot camp, I think
boot camp was like eight, Iforget eight, ten, twelve weeks.
It's been so long.
It's been like sixty years, youknow. After boot camp, went to

(08:28):
Camp Pendleton for advancedinfantry training. You know,
that was another few weeksthere, you know, and that that
was that was great to me. Imean, we were living in crappy
conditions. We were living, Idon't know if your listeners
know what a Kwanzahn hut is,okay?
A Kwanzahn hut is a house that'sa little aluminum or wood thing
that's built like this. We livedin Kwanzahn huts that were built

(08:52):
during World War II. So you canimagine the maintenance, it was
hot in the summer and cold inthe winter. But I thought it was
great because I was from a flatTexas coastal plain, and we were
in mountains. I mean I thoughtthat was super, man.
I mean some of the mountains inCalifornia are you know, they're

(09:15):
they're not you know, forestmountains or you know like
Alpine, know Switzerlandmountains you know. But they're
they're just like kinda desertmountains. Either way, I mean I
thought it was great. I mean tome the highest thing I ever saw
was like a bridge going over ariver or something like that. So
But I loved it.
But you know, mean on the flipside, they did beat the crap out

(09:36):
of us with training. We'd be outthere twelve, sixteen hours a
day. Know so then I got assignedto an MOS, military operational
skill. And I couldn't believethat everybody was going to the
Marine Corps. There's a 311, 0 31 1, 0 3 11, which is a grunt,

(09:57):
you you're a basic rifleman.
And I got to be a eight fortynine, you know. And I'm
thinking, what the hell is aeight forty nine? And I was told
that I was going to be a forwardobserver for naval gunfire. And
I'm thinking, I don't know howthe heck I got that job, okay? I
mean I had no technicalexperience, no engineering
background.

(10:17):
I must have done something righton my end. You have to have
these tests that you take. Ofcourse you take them at four in
the morning with one hour ofsleep, you know, being yelled at
by a sergeant. Know, you'retrying to take a test that's
gonna decide your career. I musthave done well because I wasn't
an infantryman, even thoughwe're all infantrymen.

(10:39):
So they sent me to naval gunfireschool, which was of all places,
it was in San Diego. I spentlike eight or twelve weeks in
San Diego at a Navy base. I'mtelling you, you know what,
going from a Marine Corps baseto a Navy base, it's like going
from the Sahara, you know, toSwitzerland, you know. I hated

(11:00):
to leave the Navy base becausethey had they actually had beds,
you know, and and that we weretwo troops to a room. The chow
hall was great, know, everybodywas polite, you know, it's like
wow, you know.
Plus, you know, the training waspretty cool too. Learned
everything about azimuths, youknow, compass readings, you

(11:21):
know, true north, grid north,and magnetic north, you know,
all kinds of different stuff,know, so. And then, you know, we
were on ships and the the bestpart of it all was we were on
the same base that the NavySEALs trained in. And, you know,
I I I I'm telling you, man, I Ihave nothing but the highest
regard for those guys, man. Imean, because they were every

(11:41):
time I saw them, they weresoaking wet.
You know? And I was just glad tobe to be sleeping in a in a
decent bed. You know? So thebest part of that school was the
last two or three weeks, took usout to an island off, I think
it's off of Los Angeles.

San Clemente Island.

Ed Mireles (11:57):
San Clemente Island. And it's nothing but an island
that the Navy and the Air Forceused for bombing, you know, and
shooting. We used to go outthere, we used to call in naval
gunfire, you know, on on varioustargets. It was it was great. It
was a hoot.
Know, so we we'd go out therefor three or four days at a
time, know, and then come backand do some paperwork, some book

(12:17):
learning. Then we'd go back thenext week. That was great. So I
I managed to pass that. Youknow, in all honesty, I don't
remember how I was ranked in theclass.
I mean, I was just so excited,you know, that I was doing it,
you know. I don't know whether Iwas first in the class or last
in the class, you know, so but Iwas was a certified forward
observer, you know, so. And thenin my career as a forward

(12:39):
observer, we went to Twenty NinePalms, which is a marine corps
base in the desert in SouthernCalifornia. It's like next to
the Mojave Desert, guess. And wetrained in calling in artillery
because that's a little bitdifferent than naval gunfire.
Know, artillery, it's know,stationary on land and stuff
like that. Navy ships arefloating around you know,

(13:01):
bobbing and weaving and stufflike that, you know. So it's a
little bit different, but again,that was a hoot. You know, we'd
be out there in the desert, youknow, calling in, you know,
explosives, you know.

So as you're you're doing all this training, did you
use it operationally? Did didyou go to Vietnam?

Ed Mireles (13:18):
You know, that that that's the interesting question
and that's I look back on that,know, and I'm thinking, wow.
It's almost like a miracle.Because once I had graduated
from the naval gunfire school,my unit, I was assigned to the
third battalion eleventhmarines, first marine division.
We got orders like in I think itwas January 1972 to go to

(13:42):
Vietnam. So we were actually,you know, we were in the process
of moving all, you know, all thegear from the from our base at
Camp Pendleton, moving into SanDiego to put on ships.
Okay? And and and as you canwell imagine, you know, any
movement of of heavy equipmentlike that, cannons, you know,
artillery, you know, food, youknow, ammo, that type of stuff

(14:03):
is a real big logistical issue.You know? So so I was driving
some vehicles from CampPendleton to San Diego, and we
had to stay on the Navy base inSan Diego. We actually stepped
in our Jeeps because they said,hey, guys have to watch the
equipment.
We can't just leave it here. Sowe did that for I was there for

(14:24):
about three or four or fivedays, know, and then all of a
sudden the sergeant comes backand says, okay. You know, he
called us some some kind words,some some nicknames, pet names.

The the marine corps is known to be very kind
in their nicknames.

Ed Mireles (14:39):
Yeah you know, it's a we're a very it's a very homey
organization. Anyway, he said,stop what you're doing, get it
off the ships and put it back.He said, we're we're taking it
off and we're going back to CampPelletin. And everybody looked
at him like like he had twoheads. I said, what?
We just spent like three or fouror five days loading this stuff

(15:00):
up. And I said, well it doesn'tmatter, the president has
canceled the war. And I said,what? He said, listen and not go
ahead, just do what I tell youto do. But the war for us, he
said, the war is over.
And I'm thinking, what? And thenit wasn't until later that I
found out that president Nixon,the honorable president Nixon I

(15:23):
know a lot of people hate him,you know, but he is honorable
president Nixon to me. And thehonorable Henry Kissinger had
been at the Paris peace talkswith the Vietnamese, you know,
and and they had come come tosome agreement, some accord to
end the war. So they had signedit in in in the beginning of the
year or at the end of theprevious year, I forget what it

(15:44):
was. So they were not sendingany troops to Vietnam anymore,
they were downsizing, callingeverybody back.
I had my foot on the step to theship to leave, know. But they
canceled it, so we went back toCamp Pelletin and I'm thinking,
I've got three and a half yearsleft in my tour of duty. What
the hell is gonna happen? Know?And you know, I don't know

(16:05):
whether have you ever been inthe service?

So I was in the SEAL teams. So I was in the SEAL
teams for Okay. Just under tenyears, so familiar with a

Ed Mireles (16:12):
lot of that. You know that idle there are there
are no idle hands in themilitary. No. If you're not
doing something man, someone'sgonna find some shit for you to
So it was not I wasn't lookingforward to that. Know, so one
morning our CEO comes out toformation, it was like zero
eight hundred I think it was.
And he made an announcement, hesays, okay. He said, the Marine

(16:34):
Security Guard Battalion islooking for volunteers to attend
their their school, and I'msitting in formation parade res.
I'm like, oh god, what the hell?So he said and after reviewing
the files of all the, you know,marines in in in the platoon, he
said, there are only two peoplequalified to apply. And he said,

(16:57):
number one, you cannot have anarrest record, you know, and
everybody starts snickering.
He said and number two, he said,you've gotta have three years or
more on on your tour of duty. Sohe said, there's only two
marines here that are qualified.He said, you know, corporal so
and so and private Morelos. Isaid, he says, see me after
formation. I'm thinking, whatthe hell?

(17:18):
You know? So I went to see theCEO, you know, and I had no
idea. I had, I mean, really hadno clue, you know. So the
corporal went before me and hewent in for like five seconds
and came out. You know, he saidhe wanted nothing to do with it
because he was, you know,married or something like that.
And you can't be married, youknow, you go on that program,
know. So I went in and the COsaid, okay, he says, what do you

(17:41):
think? I said, sir, I have noidea what you're talking about.
You know, can you tell me whatthe hell this is? And goes,
okay.
Well you it's a security guardbattalion or marines that guard
the embassies around the world.I'm thinking, well that that
piqued my interest. You know,it's like, that sounds pretty
cool. Know, because I had seenthe movie, I don't know if you
remember the old days, fiftyfive days at Peking, you know,
the old movie where the wherethe marines and and the army

(18:04):
guys were were in China, know,and then the boxers rebelled in
nineteen nineteen hundred ornineteen o one.

I'm aware of it. I've not seen the movie.

Ed Mireles (18:12):
Yeah. Well, it's like, you know, it's like a 50
five year old movie. But anyway,I saw the fifty five days at in
at Peking, you know, it was thename of the movie, you know, and
I thought that was pretty cool,man. They had you had the army,
you had the the the marines, youhad Germans and Brits and
everybody else, you know, theywere forming a big like an Alamo
basically in in the thedowntown, now it's Beijing, you

(18:33):
know. So it looked pretty cool,they were talking about, hey, we
have to protect the embassies,we have to protect everything.
And that's the only thing I knewabout embassies, you know. So I
said, hey, that sounds prettycool. I said, sir, what do you
think? I asked him point blank,I said, do you think? You think
it's a good deal?
He says, he said, for a youngman like you? He said, yeah,
think it would be a good deal. Isaid, okay, sir, sign me up. And
like within thirty days, man, Iwas in Washington DC.

Very cool.

Ed Mireles (18:58):
You know, so that was pretty cool. And I went
through the school, know, theschool was about, I don't know,
two months long, two and a half,three months. We started out
with a 20 applicants and bygraduation time, we were down to
60. I mean, because they theyreally cut you out, man. They,
you know, they start doing thatwas my first experience with a
background check, you know, likea government, you know, hey.

(19:19):
You have to get a secret. AndI'm sure you know, you probably
had, you know, TS, SEI, youknow, x-ray, you know, levels,
you know. And I didn't knowthis, but that's what was being
done, know, to my background.And you know, being a little
shit kid from South Texas neverdone anything, I mean, I was
pretty, you know, so they said,I passed, know. And then it came

(19:42):
time to being assigned a post.
Everybody was all excited. Andthe guys in front of me, you
know, they said, oh, you know,Lance Corporal Smith, you're
going to, you know, Helsinki,Finland. And I'm thinking, oh my
god, I'd love to go to Finland,know. Of course, I had visions
of all these blonde, tallbeauties, you know. And then,

(20:03):
Pirate Smith, you're going toParis, France, know.
And I was like, oh god, youknow. And they have all these,
you're going to Tokyo, andyou're going to, you know,
Australia. I figure I figurewhat the capital of Australia
was, you know. And I'm thinking,and there's, you know, Lance
Corporal Morelos, you're goingto Sofia Bulgaria. I'm thinking,
what?
I said, sir and and I said, Ihad no clue. You know? And back

(20:25):
then, you didn't have Google.You know? So I had to go to a a
a globe, one of those oldglobes.
And I said, where the hell isthis place? I had no idea where
to look for it. And then thesergeant came over and said,
right here, Nuck. Go ahead. Youknow?
So I said, that's in the Easternblock. He said, yep. He said,
that's why only the special theold cliche, the best of the best

(20:48):
only I'm thinking, yeah, right.They probably ran out of good
good good post and I ended upwith the crap post, you know. So
so we had we had some an extrabriefing because it was, you
know, it was the height of thethe height of the cold war, you
know.
And and it was kind of exciting.It was also, you know, kinda,
you know, scary too becausethat's like, Jesus, you know,

(21:09):
the way they made it sound,know, it's like, man, you know,
you're really going into likealmost like a, you know,
guerrilla warfare, you know,combat, you know, because and it
really it really, in allseriousness, it really was.
Every time we left the embassy,the marines slept in the
embassy, worked in the embassy,ate in the embassy, because we

(21:30):
had to be there twenty fourseven and we're always on alert.
And then they had specialsecurity precautions, you know,
for people trying to break intothe embassy and then also for
listening devices, know. I mean,you know, the the typical, you
know, counterintelligence, youknow, spy versus spy stuff, you
know.
But I mean it wasn't bad. I meanafter a while they got a little

(21:52):
bit boring, know. I mean I'dsleep and we'd sleep on the Top
Floor, you know, get dressed,you know, work out or whatever,
have breakfast, then you walkdown two floors and you're on
your post, you know. So I mean,you could literally live live
there for three hundred andsixty five days and not not
never leave the building, youknow.

So you went from loading a ship and unloading a
ship, going to Vietnam, notgoing to Vietnam, and then going
to a part of the world that youdidn't even ever imagine in a
job that you never thought thatexisted in in the span of a few
months, really. Like, I mean,maybe a year.

Ed Mireles (22:25):
Probably, like, three or four months, you know,
it's like, holy cow. Yeah. Butyou know what though? Let let me
tell you about Bulgaria. Youknow, I think when I think back
because this really was theheight of the cold war, you
know.
The word that comes to mind asto how to describe Sofia
Bulgaria, the one word, bleak.It was a bleak place. Okay? The

(22:45):
people, there was no color. Imean, everything they wore was
like wool and it was like brownor black or gray, you know?
And I mean, and I used to lookat their clothes in in the
summer. They wore everybody waswearing wool pants or I said,
dudes, I mean, you're how canyou wear wool in in freaking

(23:05):
when it's 80 degrees outside?They had they had nothing else.
Whenever tourists the fewtourists that were there, they
were they used to have a lot ofBrits, you know, and a lot a lot
of east Western Europeantourists come in. Bulgarians
would would go up to you andliterally say, hey.
I wanna buy your blue jeans.It's like, what? I'll buy your
blue jeans, you know, and Idon't even know what blue jeans
were like back then. You know, Iused to I used to wear Levi's

(23:27):
all the time, Like eight bucksfor a pair of blue jeans at the
time. Man, they said, I'll giveyou a hundred dollars for for
your jeans, you know.
And we never did it because, youknow, you never know when you're
being set up, you know, becausethere were some real people, I
mean, some some real Bulgariansthat wanted your blue jeans, you
know. Or if you wore like a poloshirt, some weird color like
like anything but gray, youknow. So people would would come

(23:51):
up to you and offer to buy yourclothes off of you, you know.

It's it's interesting from the the Soviet
era, like these are allstereotypes that I've heard and
I've never experienced that. Idon't, you know, I've never seen
that place. I've never led thatlife. It's interesting that you
you were there at exactly thetime when that was

Ed Mireles (24:09):
That was 1972. That was in Sofia, you know. And I'm
telling you, it was bleak, know.They they had they made no bones
about it. The the military, theywore gray.
That was their color uniformswith gray, you know, gray and
red hats. Practically, everybodyyou went, they were carrying the
old submachine guns. I don'teven know what I know they
weren't H and Ks back then,know, so but people were just

(24:31):
like, you know, they were likesad. Know, it's like it's just
like, you know, woe is me, youknow. So every time we left the
embassy, I mean, literally, Imean, there's a building across
the street from the embassy onthe Second Floor, there was an
open window up there.
There was somebody watching infront of the embassy twenty four
seven. Okay. You know, they madethey were just in your in your

(24:53):
face about it. You know, andthen every time we left the
embassy, anybody left theembassy, they were being
followed. I mean, they you'd hada you'd and they weren't
discreet.
It was like in your face, know,you'd followed by two guys, four
guys, depending on where you'regoing.

Like in Rocky four? Yeah. Did you ever see Rocky
four where they follow himeverywhere when he's training?
Yeah. They get their car stuckand it's super Yeah.
Overt as he's training.

Ed Mireles (25:15):
I mean, it's it's just weird. You know, I'm
thinking, you know, okay. Youknow? I mean, that I mean, you
you knew no one was gonna mugyou, you know, unless unless
they mugged you. No.
But I spent a year there, andthat that was that was really a
learning experience. You knowwhat? Let me say this for you
audience. I see Americans rightnow, and I've seen Americans,
you know, well over the pastforty or fifty years, that will

(25:37):
tell you or go on TV orwhatever, that communism is the
best system, know, yay forcommunism, you know. And I hear
these morons on TV now, theyhave no freaking idea, no
freaking clue how communismworked.
I mean people were just bleak,sad people, you know. And you

(25:58):
had vegetables and fruits in thesummer and when winter came, you
had nothing. There was nothing.Okay? And you had to buy and
prepare for I mean, was almostlike a I guess we call them
preppers now.
Know, people had to plan how howthey were gonna live through the
winter. Okay? Because I mean Imean, we were lucky. We we were,

(26:20):
you know, the embassy had had wehad the the diplomatic store.
You could walk in there and buy,you know, caviar and chocolates
and champagnes, But theBulgarians, you know, they would
be outside looking in, you know,it's like, hey.
You know, they were indiplomatic corps, you know. So
they would be out there lookingat you like, what the heck, you
know. So it it was bleak. Sothese these morons out there,

(26:40):
you have no clue. You wouldn'tlast a week.
You wouldn't last a week intheir program. You'd be you'd be
in some gulag someplace else.

It's tough to to not have lived an experience and
then be an advocate forsomething. And Yeah. You know, I
have you know, I've been to afew places in the world, but
certainly not everywhere. Yeah.But the the lifestyle in, you
know, Iraq and Afghanistan wassurprising.
They have a different take ofhow the world is based on places
that I've been.

Ed Mireles (27:07):
Well, you know what though, I spent four years in
Iraq, you know, as a contractemployee. I tell you what,
there's another happy place.Know, I did a year in Fallujah
with the marines, know. Happy,happy, joy, joy. You know, it's
like holy Jesus.

It's different.

Ed Mireles (27:24):
I did three years with tenth Mountain and a couple
other units in Baghdad and thenwith the US embassy.

What years were those?

Ed Mireles (27:32):
I was there between 02/2008, '2 thousand '12. Oh,
wow. What do they say? Heartsand minds.

They did say that. They did say that. It's a it's a
different value of life. It's adifferent value of a lot of
different things that Yeah. I Ithink if you were to see it face
to face, you wouldn't understandit.
Certainly in Afghanistan to memore than Iraq that I saw, human
life was not valued Yeah.Remotely in the same way.

Ed Mireles (27:56):
Well, know, I don't know whether I was lucky or
unlucky. My when I wasoriginally got my the job in o
eight, I said, hey, I don'twanna go to Iraq, I wanna go to
Afghanistan because I knew Iraqwas in my mind, Iraq was winding
down. Okay? I mean, okay,they'll be out of there in a
year and a half, two years. AndI'm thinking Afghanistan is just

(28:18):
kicking up, know, so I wanted togo there.
And they said, nah, we don'tneed you in Afghanistan, we need
you in Iraq. I'm thinking, okay.So as it turned out, I ended up
doing four years there. Butyou're right though, the value
systems here, you know, peoplehere is like, I have I have
freedoms. You know, you I haveyou know, you can't do that to
me.
It's like, dude, you have noidea. It's like in Bulgaria and

(28:39):
and and and Fallujah, you'relucky you're you're breathing.
You know?

So it's it's interesting that you went to go
chase more action later in yourlife. Let's move on now. So,
like, you had your like, a avery interesting experience in
the Marine Corps. What led youto the next? What led you to go
to the agency or to the bureaurather?

Ed Mireles (28:59):
That that's an interesting story in itself,
know, Rob, you know, becausewhen I when I as a reward, that
that's the way the the marinecorps did it, you know, and I'm
surprised they were eventhinking that far ahead, you
know. But as a reward for youdoing a a one year hardship in a
in a an Eastern Bloc country,you you're second post. You you
would only do a year. Theywouldn't they wouldn't let you

(29:20):
do two years because you'reisolated. I mean, you I mean,
the only people you saw wereyour fellow marines and the
embassy staff, you know.
You weren't allowed tofraternize. You couldn't
fraternize with any anyBulgarians, girls. I mean, it's
like forget about, you know. Andthe the Bulgarians were always
throwing girls at us, you know.It's like and we knew it was a
setup, you know.
It's like, you know what? Fine.Thank you. So after a year, you

(29:42):
know, the the marines got gettransferred out. I was rewarded
by being sent to this god awfulplace called Madrid, Spain.
Oh man, it's like don't throw mein the briar patch, you know. I
did two years of service inMadrid and then I I met my my
first wife in Madrid, so I endedup living in Madrid for five

(30:02):
years. Man, if there's onecountry in the world besides The
US that I would move to, itwould be Spain you know so.

When I was in college, did a study abroad just
outside of of Madrid so I youknow I lived there for six
months and I'm hammered withSpain, I love it.

Ed Mireles (30:16):
Oh yeah, imagine me five years man, I went all every
city and in Madrid, I canguarantee you, I don't think
there is one single bar that Imissed in Madrid after five
years. And you know what, it wasmy mission to reconnoiter every
single bar in Madrid.

That's good work if you can get it. Know, the best
tapas are, know the wine isbetter here.

Ed Mireles (30:41):
Yeah. I'll tell you what. So anyway, after I met my
first wife, got out of theMarine Corps. The Marine Corps,
I asked for an overseasdischarge. So I was discharged
overseas because I was marriedto the American lady that I
married.
And at the embassy, in certainembassies, they have a position
called legal attaches. And I hadno idea what a legal attache

(31:04):
was, I thought it would be anattorney but it ends up being
that the legal attache is an FBIagent. So the FBI, there was one
FBI agent assigned to theembassy, he covered Madrid,
Portugal, and Morocco. That washis road trip, okay. So I got to
know him, know, it's like, yessir, know that, when I was in

(31:24):
uniform.
And his name was Jerry. We gotto be kind of friends, know. I
was I was always intimidated byhim because I'm thinking, man.
He's he's the he's the big g,you know. But we got to be
friends, know.
And when I was in my junioryear, I started going to school
there at the University ofMaryland, you know, their
overseas campus and stuff. So Iwas in my junior year, he pulls

(31:45):
me aside and says, hey, how farare you from graduating? I said,
I've got one more year. He says,hey, what are you gonna do when
you graduate? I said, well,know, I thought when get back to
the station, I wanna be a policeofficer.
He said, really? I said, yeah.And he said, well have you ever
considered a career in the FBI?And I looked at him and I said,

(32:06):
FBI? I said, Jerry, I said, Idon't think I'd qualify.
He said, I thought you had to bean attorney or an accountant. I
mean, that really was mymindset. You know, attorney or
an accountant. You know, the oldEfraim Zemblis Jr, you know,
days, you know, from TV andstuff. So he said, no, no, it's
definitely those are two bigprograms that the FBI hires.

(32:27):
They hire attorneys, they hireaccountants. But he said, we
hire engineers, we hirescientists, we hire linguists,
we hire all different kinds ofpeople. Said, so I looked at him
and said, so where would I fitin? He said, you would fit in
two categories, actually threecategories. He said, you would
fit in under the linguistbecause I know you've been
living in Spain, your Spanishshould be perfect.

(32:49):
He said, second category is youfit under a minority program. I
said, okay. So he said the thirdcategory would be diversified. I
said, we hire former militaryand former police officers. I
said, really?
He said, yep. He said, I thinkthat you would be a great
candidate to go to the FBIAcademy. He said, what you do

(33:12):
there is on you. Said, I can getyou an application. He said, I
think you'd be a good candidate.
He said, as a matter of fact,said, I'm gonna order, I'm gonna
request an application to besent to me from headquarters to
hear it to the embassy and whenI get it, I'll look you up and
hand you the application. Hesaid, this is what I suggest,
make three or four or fivedifferent copies, photocopies of

(33:34):
the application and then startrough drafting the answers
because if you screw up theoriginals, you're gonna have to
wait for me to get you a secondone. I said, okay. He said,
here's his last words. He said,and he said, use me as a
reference.
You know, I said, wow, I meanthat's pretty good. So
basically, don't know whetherthat's recruiting in place or

(33:56):
what, know, I mean, but he, youknow, I never would have
thought, Rob, know, I I wouldhave gone back to The States and
been a cop someplace, know, likein Arlington, Virginia or
because my wife worked workedfor the for the DIA, Defense
Intelligence Agency at the time.So we we would we would have
been living in Washington, youknow, so. But that's how I got
turned on to the FBI. Igraduated, turned in my bail my

(34:19):
application like six monthsahead of time.
We transferred back toWashington in 1979. Seventy '70
yeah. Seventy eight, seventynine. And as soon as I got
settled, you know, I called FBIheadquarters and I said, hey. My
name is Ed I said, hey.
I I'm following up on myapplication. And they go, okay.

(34:39):
Hold on. Let me transfer you tothe applicant squad, applicant
unit. They transfer you over andsay, Ed Morales, know, the date
of birth, said social securitynumber.
He said, Mr. Morales, we have norecord of your application. And
I'm thinking, I had no ideaabout it. Welcome to the
government. We lost yourapplication.
Think, God dang, you know. Sothey said besides that, they
said where do you live? I said Ilive in Arlington, Virginia. I

(35:02):
said well you can't applythrough us, have to apply
through the Alexandria office. Isaid okay.
So is it okay, I have a good,back then we called it a Xerox
copy, I have a good Xerox copyof my application, is that
sufficient? They go, yeah, ifit's clear it should be. So I
went to the Alexandria office,handed in my application and

(35:24):
they said, thank you, we'll callyou later if you meet the
qualifications. And that startedthe process, it took about nine
months from the time I got backfrom overseas to get picked up.
Typical background, you know,where where have you lived, you
know, we need references, youknow, banking information, that

(35:45):
I mean, again, know, I was as aswe say in the Marika, I don't
know whether they'd say it inthe navy, but I was just a
snuffy, you know.
I had I had no no nothing. Imean, my bank account finally
had $58 in it. Know? So I mean,I I wasn't moving hundreds of
thousands of dollars into myaccount or anything. You know?
So so my background went prettyfast. Know? So next thing I

(36:08):
know, on September 1979, I'm atthe FBI Academy.

How was the academy for you?

Ed Mireles (36:13):
You know what? It was great on an academic level.
Was a I mean, it was likecollege. It really was when I
had just graduated from college,you know, the previous nine
months. But from a an anoperational side, you know,
being in the marine corps, itwas like candy.
I mean, it's like little it waslike little sissy, you know. I
mean, you know, I could do thepush ups, I could do the pull

(36:34):
ups, you know, I I could do inthe Marine Corps, we had to run
three miles every morning. Sothe FBI test was two miles and I
could run that backwards. Sophysically, it wasn't a
challenge, but academically, wasreally Not that I'm a dumb
person, but I mean I just hadnever had experience in legal

(36:55):
matters. Okay, and three of theeight tests that you have to
pass at the academy, three ofthem were legal exams.
Okay. And that was terrifying tome because I'm thinking, my god,
know, what if I screw this up?Luckily for me, my roommate was
an attorney. Okay. I liked himas long as we were at the
academy, but since he was anattorney, I said, hey, Paul,

(37:19):
after we guys rate, you're deadto me.
You're an attorney, I can'tassociate. You're best friends
of course. But he helped me, hegave me the finer points of
legal issues, stuff like that.So which helped me pass the
legal classes. And I helped himwith PT because he was needless
to say, I don't know what he hada stout body belt.

(37:45):
But I'll tell you what though,he was a whip when it came to
law man. He was you know, realreal good lawyer you know so.

Very nice. I do have one question about going
through. Did you also go throughtraining with Tommy Norris? So
my brother said something tothat regards, and Tommy Norris
was a seal in Vietnam, a medalof honor recipient, a total
legend. I've met him, wonderful,he's an idol.

Ed Mireles (38:11):
Talk about a small world. You know, it's just one
of the luck luck of the draw.Know, Tommy Norris was my
roommate. You we had you had tworooms next to each other that
shared a bathroom. Tommy Norriswas in the other room so we
shared a bathroom and stuff likethat.
So I didn't know Tommy Norrisfrom you know, the man in the
moon you know, but once I got toknow him, you know, I found out

(38:33):
he was an a b c o, middle ofhonor recipient and stuff like
that. He was so freaking funny.He and no I didn't mean I tried
to be polite, know, I I wouldlook I looked at Tommy, you
know, kind of from the side andI could see he had a he had a
disfigured face and I'mthinking, well I'm not gonna be
rude and stare at. I mean that'sthat's not polite, know. But
then I found out that that was awar injury from from Vietnam,

(38:57):
you know, and and I found out hewas very lucky to be alive, you
know.
Because if you know the story,he got hit with an AK round, you
know, from the side, you know,and blew this part of his face
off, including his eye. So I gotto talk to him. He said he spent
like seven years in hospitals.You know, they were
reconstructing his skull andstuff like that. And Tommy was
he was a he was an evil man.

(39:17):
And, you know, trying to bepolite, you know, so we'd be we
would share a bathroom, youknow. There's four men sharing a
bathroom, you know. So I'd be inthe shower, and you had two
sinks, you get two guys who'd beshaving, somebody be taking a
dump, you know, and somebody'sshowering, you know. Everything
was being used. Efficiency,efficiency, efficiency.
So I'd be I'd be taking a showerhead, the shower curtain up like

(39:39):
this, and then I would hearTommy Norris going, I see you.
And I think I think you're onlike this. And you look over the
shower curtain and he would havehis prosthetic eye like this
over the shower curtain lookingdown at me. He said, I see you.
He did that so many times, itwas hilarious, man.

(39:59):
And a lot of people didn't knowthat he had a prosthetic eye.
There was one event thathappened in the gym. We were
resting, you know, groundfighting, that type of stuff,
know, and Tommy, he's a wirylittle rascal, man. But he's
slender and he's about five footten, something like that. And he
came up against this Oakland,California Cop.

(40:20):
Imagine Oakland, okay. So he wasa rough guy, man. And he
muscular. So he, know, kindalike, if you know what I'm I
know you know a bull in thering, you you have somebody in
the middle and he's attackeddifferent places, know, whenever
there's you, you know. So wekinda had a similar process in
the gym.

(40:40):
And they would say, okay,switch. You know, you you switch
partners, you know, and and youwrestle women, and you wrestle
women will wrestle big guys,women will wrestle small guys.
And then Tommy Norris switchedover to to to the Oakland Cop,
and they're resting. And theOakland Cop, you know, he's
musk. So he grabs Tommy by theshoulders and he goes, boom.
Slams him on the ground on themat. Okay? What happened? When

(41:02):
he hit when Tommy's head or bodyhit the mat, his eye, the shock
popped the eye out of his headand it goes rolling across the
floor, okay, of the gym and itwas hilarious. It was funny.
The women in the class go, mygod. You killed him. There's a

(41:24):
gym instructor who had no idea.The the instructors were just
about to pass out. They go, ohmy god.
How am I gonna write this off?How am I gonna explain this
guy's eyeball? And, of course,we were his we were his
roommates so we knew. So Tommygets up, know, he he closes his
eyelid like this so you wouldn'thave to look at his empty hole,
you know. So he walks over,picks up picks up the eyeball,

(41:48):
looks at it, puts it in hismouth, lubricates it, and then
sticks it back in his eye sockand turns around like it's
nothing.
Oh my god, there were so manytimes like that. It was just
hilarious. Getting back to theacademy, I mean, the physical
side of it was it's like, I Icould do it in my sleep. But the

(42:10):
academic side, oh my God, Imean, I used to sleep on pins
and needles worried that I wasgonna fail academically. But I
managed to get through.
We graduated in December ofnineteen seventy nine. It was
myself, Tommy Norris, Michael,G, Rogers, and Tim. We were sent
to WFO together. So I served itwith Tommy at WFO for about

(42:33):
three or four years, you know.Then I then I got transferred
out and then Tommy eventuallyended up working undercover and
going to Idaho or something likethat, you know.
So and I lost track. Once I leftWFO, you know, I lost track
everybody.

What's WFO?

Ed Mireles (42:46):
Washington field Yeah.

Okay. You started in 1979. Tommy also actually had
to get the president to allowhim to go. So he Yeah.

Ed Mireles (42:56):
You know,

in order to get because it's medically clear,
they're like, you don't qualifyfor that. So I think I think
Gerald Ford actually wrote him aletter to be like, you're
allowed to go.

Ed Mireles (43:04):
He had to get an exemption on two levels. Okay?
The first was a physicalexemption because he only had he
only had one eye. Okay? And andI mean, think about it.
I mean, life is tough with twoeyes. Imagine just being, you
know, being a being agunfighter, being a cop with one
eye. I mean, it's like, it'stough. The second exemption he
had to get was the maximumhiring age for the FBI at the

(43:29):
time was 35 back then. So if youwere over 35, you could not
apply to be an FBI agent becauseof And people say, well that's
discrimination, the ace is No.
It has to do with retirement.Okay? If if you have to be 35
when you're hired, that way you,because mandatory retirement age
for ages was 55. Okay? Sobecause of the physical

(43:53):
requirements, you know, it'slike it's kinda like pilots.
You know? You don't want an oldpilot that can't see, you know,
landing you Jeff. Right? Youknow? So it's same thing with
ages.
You don't want old guys, youknow, having to chase down and
fight young guys. Okay? So Tommywhen Tommy came in, he was 37.
Okay? So he he had to get anexemption for his age and for
his for his physical disability,you know, so.

So so you were in the Washington field office for
that. And, I mean, ultimately,you ended up in a a historic
thing in 1986. Right?

Ed Mireles (44:24):
Correct.

Yeah. So what what what was the lead into that? So
was that how long were you inthe Washington field office for?

Ed Mireles (44:28):
Oh, I was there I was there we got there in '79,
'80 1980, and I was transferredto Miami in 1985. Okay. A lot of
stuff happened, you know. Imean, Tommy and I were involved
so much, you know, mayhem, andand we're we're lucky we weren't
fired. I mean, you know, weseriously, we you know, some of
the stuff we did out of naiveteand some of the stuff we did, we

(44:49):
say, hey.
You know what? The hell withthis. Let's just do it. You
know? So, you know, I go, hey.
Screw this. You know? So I endedup working undercover operation
in Miami in '82 and then I cameback to Washington field office
in '83, about eighteen monthslater. When I was down working
undercovers when I met somewherein the interim there, I I got

(45:09):
divorced. My first wife, youknow, she had we had a parting
of the ways, you know, as theysay.
So I I met a young lady in Miamiand she happened to be an FBI
agent. So we got married andthen the bureau was obligated to
to, you know, give us a commonhousehold. You know, she was in
Miami. I was in Washington. Iwanted her to to be transferred

(45:32):
to Miami.
The bureau said, no. We're gonnatransfer transfer you to Miami.
So so they said, I was in theprocess of of being transferred,
know, and that that's how Iended up in Miami because my
wife was living down there. So Igot transferred to Miami in
1985, April of '19 '80 '5, youknow, And I ended up being
assigned to the bank robberysquad there. And I'll you what,

(45:55):
that was one of the luckiestthings in the world.
I mean, know, I know, I I shouldprobably be called rabbit foot
the way I have luck, you know.So that that's when I met the
the bank robbery squad. Youknow? It's a bunch of you know,
it's kinda like the Navy SEALs,man. You know?
You you go into a new squad, anew unit, you know? You say,
hey. The the kinda like Obi WanKenobi, you will never meet a

(46:15):
more vicious group of scum andvillainy. You know? So Navy
SEALs, FBI agents, it's thesame.
Those guys, I mean, you playrough, man. You you you work you
work hard. You you play hard.You know? So and I I was lucky,
you know, that that to be a signof that squad.
Now as far as the shootingincident goes, I got there in

(46:36):
April of eighty five. And likein that summer, August or
September of eighty five, westarted having a series of
armored truck and bankrobberies. Now let me take a
step back now. Miami armoredtrucks and bank robberies aren't
unusual. But and we had what wecalled two separate gangs.

(46:57):
Okay? We had the Hispanic gangand we had the black gang. And
because we didn't know who theywere, I mean, that's what we
call them is, hey, you know, theHispanic gang hit again or yeah,
the black guys hit again. Youknow? So we were working that
case, I mean those cases.
And then all of a sudden out ofthe blue, we we started getting
a third group of players comein, you know. And we didn't know
who they were or what, but theytheir MO, their modus operandi,

(47:21):
you know, their style was waydifferent than the other two
gangs. Okay? It was almosteither they were very vicious or
very amateurish, I don't knowhow to describe it. Initially
they were amateurish I think.
Because the first robbery was inlike, I forget September 1985.
It was at a steak and nailrestaurant in South Miami. It

(47:43):
was an armored truck deliveryand two guys attacked the the
guard and from behind, one ofthem hit him on the head,
knocked him down, took his gun,took his little money bag. They
walked him up to the front ofthe armored truck, I think it
was a Wells Fargo truck. And putyourself in his shoes, okay?

(48:03):
You've got a masked man totallycovered in a face mask, gloves,
wearing dark clothing, almostlike black utilities, like a
utility, the old 1980sutilities. So they've got you by
the throat, march you up to thedriver's side of the armored
truck. You've got a big honkingrevolver stuck in your ear like

(48:26):
this and they tell you, hey,tell the driver to open the
door, okay? Well what do youthink standing orders are for
drivers? The policy of thecompany, if you're faced with
that situation.
What do you think the policy is?

I mean at this point I think is do what they
say, but I don't know if thatwas the policy then.

Ed Mireles (48:48):
No. No. The policy then was drive away. So you're
you're here and your partnerdrives away. I'm sorry.
I'm I'm an evil man. I have tolaugh every time I hear that. I
say that because imagine youthere and he said, no, no, no,
don't kill me please. He'sstupid. Should've left the door

(49:08):
open.
He should've opened the door. Sothey hit him on the head again,
knocked him to the ground. Theguy with the with the assault
rifle, we we didn't know what itwas. We it was two to three
caliber. Everybody said it wasan m 16.
Nobody knew. So anyway, he opensup on the back of the truck. He
fired like 12 or 15 rounds uptwo to three rounds at the

(49:30):
armored truck, know. It didn'tdo any good, know. And they
walked away.
They probably got like $2,000 inthat little money bag, you know.
Here's the kicker, they jumpedin their getaway car and even
for Miami, that was really oddwhen they when they left the
when they sped out of theparking lot. They took two smoke
grenades. For some reason, youknow the old saying pop smoke?

(49:53):
These guys pop smoke as they'reescaping out of the parking lot,
and they they the smokegrenades, you know, filled the
the the parking lot with smokeand stuff.
Was like, dudes, you drove outof the smoke like a second after
you tossed the grenade. I mean,I don't know. That was just
weird. Like I said, even byMiami's by Miami standards, that
was odd. So we knew we had somesome new players in tussle.

(50:15):
Smoke grenades, you know,assault rifles, and then they
shoot with a with an assaultrifle at a at an armored truck,
you know. So we said, hey. Youknow, there there's there's some
new people in town. And then youknow what? The following week,
about two or three miles away,there's a Winn Dixie restaurant
down there.
In the middle of the day, twelvenoon, a delivery truck was

(50:37):
making a delivery at the WinnDixie store. The guard goes in,
he comes out with the money bag,okay? So he's walking to the
truck and there was three guardsassigned to that to that
particular truck. The driver,the courier, and the shotgun,
the guy with the shotgun. Okay?
As soon as the courier walks outwith a money bag, somebody

(50:58):
yelled, freeze. You know, andthen immediately after the word
freeze, they start shooting.Okay? So in a middle, in front
of a grocery store, a biggrocery store in a shopping
center. Okay?
And they fired between theguards and the band guys. There
were 30 shots fired in that areaand the only person that was hit

(51:23):
was the initial guard, theinitial the first shot. When the
guard walked out of the store,somebody shot him with a a 12
gauge shotgun in the legs andknocked knocked him down, you
know. They wanted to to disablehim so they could get the bag.
And like I said, there wereabout 30 shots fired in that in
that shopping center.
And you know what? I I am justamazed that nobody else was shot

(51:43):
and killed. Know? Again, we wefigured, hey. The the it's gotta
be the same guys because theyhad the same description, dark
clothing, assault rifle, youknow, that type of stuff.
But, you know, you know as wellas that, the people under stress
sometimes see or don't seestuff, you know. I had a
description of the guys, therewas three guys, there was two
guys. Okay. They were Hispanic,they were white, they were

(52:07):
black. I said, the car they werein was green, it was yellow, it
was brown.
Somebody even said it was a redcar. It was a two door car. It
was a four door car. One personsaid it was like a SUV. Okay?
And I said, well thanks thanksfor helping out. Know?

There were people and a vehicle and guns.

Ed Mireles (52:29):
Yeah. You know, that's it. Know, it's like,
okay. We had no idea what whatthe hell that, you know, they
were looking at. Know?
So we show up there and it'slike, I mean, it's like mayhem
down there. There's a big crimescene and stuff like that. And
then we went another week and wehad another incident. This is
the funny part. I'm sorry forbeing evil.
There was a Dolch restaurant inthe same area that an armored

(52:53):
truck was making a delivery atthe restaurant or pickup at the
restaurant. Could not findparking space in front of the
restaurant. So the driver had todrive around the side of the
restaurant into an alleyway or alittle side street there.
Parked, the courier got out ofthe truck and goes to the
restaurant and then picks up themoney. Courier's coming back to

(53:13):
where the truck should be.
And when the courier is comingback, he said he looked at the
next to the truck there was adumpster, a big one of those big
industrial dumpsters. He said hesaw two individuals that were
waiting behind the dumpster. Hesaid he saw them and it said,
again they were wearing masks,ski masks, dark clothing and and

(53:33):
it looked like they had a rifleor something. He said, as soon
as I saw them, I love this guy,he made a preemptive stop, he
made a preemptive strike. Okay,he drew his revolver and he
comes up and starts shooting atthese guys behind the dumpster.
Okay. Pow pow pow pow. And thatspooked them and they ran away.

(53:55):
The the courier the driverdidn't even know he had fired
shots because the engine is soloud, know. So he goes in and
pounds pounce on the door andsay, hey, call the police, know,
somebody just tried to rob us.
So we respond and we hear thestory, I said, this guy made a
preemptive strike and so itcould have been some homeless
guy, you know, for crying. Butanyway, he was here's the

(54:16):
kicker. And and I have to I haveto say, well, you know, I don't
blame him. Remember the guy atthe steak and ale who was left
like this? That was the same guythat saw these people behind the
dumpsters.
Hey, fool me once, shame onshame on you. Fool me twice,
shame on

me. Right.

Ed Mireles (54:33):
I saw these guys, pow pow pow.

I was just getting to work there.

Ed Mireles (54:38):
I had to laugh, it was so funny, man. But anyway,
we you know, this is all unusualstuff you know. And I I forget
the the dates for the for thenext robbers but we we started
getting they started gettingmore and more violent because
after that you know, it stoppedbeing you know, grins and
giggles after that, okay. Theysaid, we're not gonna go out to

(55:00):
the banks because the money isin the courier, the bags, okay.
And I don't know if you knowanything about Wells Fargo and
money movements and stuff likethat, but some of these bags at
the time carried $50,000 youknow, in cash, okay, or in other
negotiable paper you know.
Some of them, you know, some ofthose bags carry, you know, some

(55:21):
of those bags would carry at thetime up to a hundred thousand,
you know. So they say, that'swhere the money is. You go into
a bank, you might get $2,000from a teller drawer, you know,
or 3,000 whatever. But their bigmoney is in those bags, okay. So
they started hitting the armoredtrucks more, okay.
And then they hit one armoredtruck and they got like $50,000

(55:43):
and then they hit a secondarmored truck and got $42,000
But see here's the kicker, everytime they hit an armored truck,
they would shoot shoot thecourier, okay. We found this out
post incident. At the end at theend of their episodes, they had
killed four people, guards andpeople that they stole cars

(56:06):
from. Okay. And then neighbors,just weird people, man.
Mean, these guys are pretty badguys. But one particular guard,
he was shot twice again, theyshot him shot him with a
throwaway shotgun in the legsand then his partner goes up
behind him, the guy was down onthe ground, they shoots him
twice in the back. He's like,man, talk about cold blooded
man. I was like, wow. You know,the guy's dialing me.

(56:28):
You know? So so anyway, so wegot a lucky break at one of the
robberies when they get theirgetaway car. Somebody around the
bank saw them, followed the carto a Burger King that was near
the area. And they parked thecar at the Burger King and then
they got out, switched vehicles,took their money bag, took their

(56:51):
weapons and threw them into awhite pickup truck. Okay.
So the guy that was followingthem got too close and then they
noticed him in the mirror andthey jumped out of the truck and
they came out at the rear of thetruck and aimed their weapons at
him. And the guy goes, hey, hebacked away and left. That's how
we recovered the originalgetaway car. It was used like

(57:16):
three or four times. And then Iunderstand why people say, well
it was a gold brand, it ended upbeing a gold Monte Carlo you
know, that was recovered.
Now the owner was a misterBrielle who lived in Central
Miami, know. So we didn't knowanything about mister Brielle.
So I was tasked to go interviewthe Brielle family and I took my

(57:36):
friends with me, eight cops youknow. So I didn't know what the
deal was you know. And then Ifind out, it was sad, it really
was sad.
Know, I knocked on the door youknow, and the older woman
answered the door and sheimmediately says, are you here
about my son? Are you here aboutmy son? And I'm thinking, man,
what are you saying? He said, myson is missing. Do you have news

(58:00):
about my son?
And I think, oh, as soon as shesaid that, I think, oh god, this
is gonna be so bad. You know, soI said, might we come in? You
know, I said, hey, we werecovered a car that's
registered to your husband, youknow, mister Biel. He said, but
my son, she said, Emilio Biel,do you I said, oh, can you tell
me what happened? He had gonetarget shooting at in the

(58:22):
Everglades that's just West ofMiami, you know, on the Tamiami
Trail.
I think it's Calle Ocho. Youknow, Calle Ocho goes out to
Naples, know, really, it turnsinto the Tamiami Trail. She
said, my son went targetshooting out there in September
or August, September of lastyear and he disappeared. And she

(58:43):
said, we filed a missing personreport, we filed a stolen car
report. Now I didn't know thatthe car had had been registered
as stolen.
So the cops found the paperwork,know, yeah, it was reported
stolen. I said, ma'am, said, Ihave no information about your
son. I'm sorry, you know. Butyou know, she's, oh my god, you
know, but you you recovered thecar. And I'm thinking, man,
dude, I knew in my heart therewas not gonna be a happy day for

(59:04):
them you know.
So I said, well thank you somuch. She called her husband,
her husband came over and hestarts telling me the same thing
you know. I even went back youknow to talk to the husband and
I said, hey, let's go out to theEverglades and show me where he
was shooting you know or thatyou know of. So I I get him the
courtesy of, you know, going outthere and looking for a missing
kid that's been missing eightmonths, know. It's like so

(59:27):
anyway, I did that a couple ofdays, you know, and then went
back and I said, sir, you know,I'm sorry.
I have I have other tasks to do,you know. 03/01/1986, they found
Emilio Brill, you know, in theEverglades, right at the area of
where he had gone shooting. Somehikers were were hiking in the
area, and they they saw somesneakers or something underneath

(59:48):
the bush. And they went over andlooked at it, it was a skeleton,
you know, and they called thecops, you know. And anyway, he
was positively identified asBrielle, know, he had a bullet
hole in his face, you know, inhis head, you know.
So I mean, it's it's a sadchapter, know, but that was
March 1. March twelfth, there'sanother gentleman by the name of
Jose Collazo. He just happenedto be target shooting at the

(01:00:10):
same place where Emilio Bareillwas. You know, it's just you
know, weird. And on the day ithappened, he said he was
shooting in a certain direction.
He looked over, he heardsomebody coming in, saw a white
pickup truck pull up next tohim. Two guys got out with guns,

(01:00:30):
know, and he says, hey, youknow, kinda like saying, cause
there's no range master there.Everybody's every man for
himself, you know. So he lookslike this is I'm shooting that
way, and the other guy says,hey. Okay.
You know, we're gonna shoot thatway. He ignores him. He's
clinking away with his I thinkhe had a 22 or something like
that. He said after about ten,fifteen minutes, you know, he he

(01:00:50):
said he felt something behindhim or just sensed something
behind him. He turns around andthere's the two guys from the
pickup truck.
One of them had an assault rifleand the other one had a
revolver. Okay? And they'rebehind him. They they were at a
at a at a typical, you know,tactical position. One on one on
the left, one on the right.
In other words, they weren'tnext to each other. They were
they formed a triangle, youknow. So he said, oh, man. They

(01:01:13):
they had me. The guy with theassault rifle, the guy with the
gun.
So they said, okay, okay myfriend, know, put the guns down,
we're gonna take your wallet,give us your wallet, give us the
keys to your car, we're gonnatake your guns. He says, hey, no
problems, comply, comply,comply. You know, take it, take
it, take it, you know. Take thecar, here's the keys. You might
wanna check the rear tire, kneesare.

(01:01:35):
So he said they took everything,and then the guy with the gun
gets close to him, not tooclose, but close enough. He
says, turn around and walktowards that lake. You know
what, I think any one of uswould probably come to the same
conclusion that he came from. Hesaid, oh shit. You know, he
knew, he said, if I go to thatlake man, that's my last walk

(01:01:59):
man.
And he didn't briskly walktowards the lake, he was like
dragging his feet he said. Hewas like to the point where the
guy with the revolver behind himkept sticking it in his back.
Said hurry up, come on getmoving. And he said, at that
point in time, he said, hey, Igot nothing to lose man, because
they're gonna kill me. You'rehighly trained, you know, I
know.
And you know the sweet move,know, when someone's got a gun

(01:02:21):
on your back, know, this guy, hemust have since seen some kung
fu movies or something, becausehe said, man, I got nothing to
lose. So he swings, don't knowwhether he swung to the left or
swung to the right, he swung andhe got the gun off the center
mass, kicked the gun over to theside and then he grabs the gun
and then he and the band guy arefighting over this gun revolver.

(01:02:43):
And the revolver goes off and atsome point in time during this
exchange, he shot through theleft hand and then somewhere
during the exchange, shot in theupper chest and the shoulder
area and that kinda knocked himback a little bit. And then the
third hit that he got, it was ahit right to the face right

(01:03:04):
here, okay? And when I do mytraining classes, say, hey
listen, do you guys believe inluck?
Or you know, and the bible says,Ecclesiastes nine and eleven,
time and chance, you know, therace is not always to the strong
or to the swift nor battle tothe strong, but time and chance
happen to us all. Time andchance. If that round had gone

(01:03:26):
straight back, it would havegone right straight into his
brain stem, okay. But time andchance, the round went at an
angle like this, okay, asopposed to this. Okay, that
round went through his upper jawlike this and it came out on the
side of his jaw, the back of hisjaw, right below his ear.

(01:03:47):
Okay, kinda like a Tommy Norriship, except there's a guy
involved, okay? And if you'regonna get shot, mean, the the
best course of action is don'tget shot. Okay. But if you're
gonna get shot, I mean, that's alucky hit. I mean, you think
about, you know, think aboutwhat how much stuff is up here.
I mean, your eyes, your youknow, your nasal passages, and

(01:04:09):
your brain and stuff, you know.And he got hit perfectly. I
mean, it's like this. So hesaid, I don't know whether he
planned it, I don't think so. Hehe was probably knocked
unconscious, from the hit and hewent fell down on the ground.
And I've been asked thisquestion in training classes in
my presentations, why didn't heshoot him again? I mean these
guys were vicious bastards.Okay? And my theory is bang bang

(01:04:34):
bang, bang, this was the sixthround. Okay, so he had a sixth
shot, okay.
So the reason he didn't get shotagain is because the shooter had
expended all six rounds. Iguarantee you that if he had had
more rounds, probably would havepopped him a couple of times in
the back. Okay. But think aboutit, I mean If

Rob Huberty (01:04:54):
you shot a guy in the face, think you'd think
they're dead.

Ed Mireles (01:04:56):
I mean I would think, yeah, the guy's dead.
Shoot somebody in the face,especially like close range you
know. You know he's dead but hewasn't you know. So anyway, he
kinda like wakes up a fewseconds or minutes later, he
looks around and he's all alone.These guys took his car, took
everything and they picked theirwhite pickup truck and left.
Okay. And this is what I tellpeople, I said, you know, in my

(01:05:18):
training classes, mister Coreyalso had had a choice to make.
He said, what do I do now? I'mlike a mile from from the
highway in this dirt trail.Okay, what do I do?
I mean and people don't go therevery often. I mean people go
there but I mean it's like oneperson a day, two people a day.
Do you wait for help or do youtry to do something to help
yourself? Know? And I tellpeople, I said, hey, it's

(01:05:39):
important for you guys tounderstand Koyaso had a strong
will to live.
And I said, you need to takelessons from here. He had a
strong will to live. And guesswhat mister Koyaso, what his
profession was, he wasn't ahighly trained professional like
you and me. I mean, we're I wastrained at Quantico. You know?

(01:06:00):
You were trained at at atCoronado Island, you know? It's
like we're professionals andwe're highly trained. Koyaso was
a salesman. He sold mattresses.He was that's it.
Okay, but this guy had a sparkin his heart and a spark in his
head, I want to live, okay? Andhe jumped, not jumped, but he
kinda started crawling back tothe highway and he said he tried

(01:06:23):
to stand up and he said hestaggered and he fell and he
kept going. It's because he knewhe had to get to the highway to
survive. And when he got to thehighway, know, that's when you
know, it's a pretty prettyactive highway, lots of traffic.
When he got to the highway,somebody people saw him, you
know.
I can just imagine what helooked like. He probably looked

(01:06:44):
like a swamp monster coming outof the Everglades, all covered
in mud and dirt and blood. It'slike, oh jeez. But somebody
stopped to help him and theythrew him in his car and drove
him to a nearby conveniencestore about a mile away and then
they called the cops from there.And then the ambulance came over
to rescue him.
And he ended up in Central MiamiHospital, I forget what it's

(01:07:08):
called. I think it was BaptistHospital. So anyway, so we had
our first live witness. Becauseup until then we had no idea who
these guys were. And he told us,okay, was two white males, they
were about six feet, six one,two hundred pounds slender.
He said they were fit, notmuscular fit, but fit. Like they

(01:07:31):
did a lot of aerobics orrunning, so much weight lifting.
And he said, in his opinion,they had a military bearing. So
they looked like they had priormilitary service or something.
And he said, they were prettyvicious.
Mean they just shot him in coldblood. And described the pickup,

(01:07:52):
the white pickup truck, but hedidn't get the license plate on
the on the truck, but we got thelicense plate from his car. So
we we found out about this andyou know, we the FBI, in
addition to the police,interviewed him, you know. The
police at the time didn't puttwo and two together with the
bank robbers. The FBI, becauseof Emilio Brielle being shot out

(01:08:13):
in the Everglades, this guy wasshot exactly like Brielle.
So we said, hey, you know what?This is probably the robbers,
the bank robbers. They're outthere shopping for another car.
So we went out and interviewedhim and we got a lot of
information from him. Know, thePD, you know, did the old police
sketch.
We got some workable sketches,know. That happened on March 12,

(01:08:36):
like within seven days, mistermister Koyas' car was used in a
robbery. Okay? And we know 100%with 100% certainty that his car
was used in a robbery becausethe car was seen at a was part
of a bank robbery at a bank thathad been robbed once before by
these guys. And there was a UScustoms inspector going to work,

(01:09:02):
he stopped at the bank to cashhis check.
So he said, hey, he's lookingfor a parking space. He sees two
guys wearing camouflageclothing, running out of a bank
with port arms with longweapons. He said, you know,
maybe I should wait a little bitbefore I cash my check, you
know. So he said he hunkereddown watching these guys and
they backed the black car up andthe rear license plate was right

(01:09:27):
to him into his space. So hewrote it down and he verified
that it was Koyasos tag.
So we knew we were on the righttrack for the bank robbers. So
that linked the stolen car andthe bank robbing activity. That
was on March, I think it wasMarch 18, think it was. So that

(01:09:47):
takes us up to the springboard,I guess you'd call it. Shooting
happened on April 11, so ithappened about two, I don't
know, two, three weeks later.
It's called intuitive policing.Okay? Our supervisor said, hey.
He talked to the case agent, youknow, Ben Grogan. He said, Ben,
they were actually at the rangeon Thursday.

(01:10:09):
He said, hey, Ben, know, I said,hey. What do you think about
setting up surveillancetomorrow? Tomorrow being Friday.
He said, sure Gordon. What's up,what do you know?
He said, man, said I don't know,I really don't know anything
Ben. But he said, I just have ahunch. He said, the last time
these guys hit was three weeksago. The last time they hit they

(01:10:30):
only got $8,000 He said theirprevious hits were $4,550,000
and then they would wait severalweeks before they hit again. He
said, number one, he said, theya small stash, tomorrow is
payday Friday, it's been threeweeks.
He said, I think they're due. Ithink they're due to hit. So he

(01:10:52):
said, I think we should set up asurveillance in the Southwest
part of town, you know, be inthe area to respond in case
anything happens. Because ouroffice from where these guys
were robbing was like 30 milesaway. If I'm sitting at my desk
and we get a bank robbery call,it's gonna take me, I mean even
with lights and sirens, a 30mile drive through downtown

(01:11:12):
traffic, man.
It's like twenty, thirty minutesif I'm lucky. So he said, hey,
we'll be in the area in casesomething happens and then we'll
just go from there. And he said,Gordon, he said, man, I'll take
any help you can get me. So weset up a surveillance. I was in
the office on the squad whenthey called, hey, let's plan on
having a surveillance, anybodywho's available come out to help

(01:11:34):
tomorrow blah blah blah.
So we set it up. Ended up being11 guys from the squad and three
guys from the homestead littlesatellite office there. So it
was 14 agents. And we got allthe information we had. We had a
white pickup truck, no tag, hadKoyasos, black Monte Carlo with
the tag, NTJ891, and we had thecomposite photos of the guys.

(01:11:56):
So the idea was to spread out inthe South Miami area where they
had hit banks before. And wewould be, if not lucky, we would
be at least close. You know,we'd be two blocks away or five
blocks away if a robbery callcame in. I mean, being five
blocks away as opposed to 30miles away is a big big

(01:12:17):
difference.

Big difference.

You know, it's an old saying, hey, when seconds
count, you know, the police arealways minutes away. Know? We
were set up, know, and and itwas just I mean, I gotta be I
gotta be honest with you. Youknow, I I mean, I showed up for
the game, but I I say, hey, youknow what though? We're gonna
waste a day.
But it's Friday, you know, it'sa good day, you know, it's sunny

(01:12:40):
and and stuff. Thinking aboutwhat I'm gonna do on the weekend
and so I was a bit complacent,I'll be honest with you. But I
mean I was set. I mean I had myshotgun, had my body armor, had
my rage jacket, had my sidearm,extra ammo, I mean everything
was good. But I said, okay,we're gonna sit here between

(01:13:00):
nine and two.
So there goes my day. My partnerand I, John Hanlon, were
assigned to a spot in thenorthernmost area of the
surveillance area. So we takeour position and everybody's
joking around and there's atotal of 14 guys and we had like

(01:13:23):
four spots that we set in thelittle centers. And the idea was
to surveil those banks and thendo like roving patrols in your
area for other banks or likeHome Depot. I mean, armored
trucks make stops at Home Depotsand stuff like that too.
So we were just at, I had myshotgun, we're ready to go. And

(01:13:47):
three things happened. Numberone, one of the agents at my
location went in to talk to thebank and they said, no, we don't
we don't wanna talk to you, youdon't look like an FBI agent. So
he said, okay, fine. So heleaves.
They call the office verifyingthat there was an FBI agent by
that name and they said, yes. Sothey call on the radio and said,
hey, the manager wants to talkto you now. So he goes to the

(01:14:08):
bank and he goes off the air.And one the one of the spots at
130 Sixth Street, an agent bythe name of Terry said, hey,
Gordon, he said, I need to gomake a head call. Know, so I'm
gonna be out of I'm gonna bewhat we call out of pocket.
So he leaves to go to find abest restroom. And then the spot

(01:14:28):
south of him, Hundred 40 Eighth,another agent by the name of Bob
said, hey, guys, I gotta go finda boys' room because I gotta go.
Three agents, legitimatereasons. As soon as Steve goes,
hey, I'm ten seven at the bank,like within five seconds, Ben
Grogan calls on the radio andsays, attention all units, we're

(01:14:48):
behind a black Monte Carlo,Florida tag, NTJ891. We're
headed northbound on US 1.
Imagine my surprise. I was like,it's beyond surprise, it's like
holy Jesus, you gotta be kiddingme. These guys are blatant. I
mean, they're in a stolen car,the tag has been blasted all
over Bolo, be on the lookout,and they're in that same car. I

(01:15:13):
mean, they're just like, hey, inyour face, you know.
So we started a real shortsurveillance, we followed them,
they going northbound on US 1,they made a right turn on the
100 And Seventeenth, startedgoing back southbound. And at
some point in time, we weretrying to get them in the right
spot and we didn't wanna do acar stop like in the middle of a
three lane highway. You know,that would be that would be

(01:15:34):
crazy. So they they did us afavor. They went on off off the
highway and they were back inthe residential areas, which is
where we when we decided to dothe car stop.
From the time Ben Grogan, agentBen Grogan said, attention all
units, I'll draw, he said,felony car stop, let's do it,
was three minutes. So we hadthree minutes to formulate a

(01:15:55):
plan and to try to bring thepolicy together into one spot,
okay. So some of our units werewe had an area about five miles
long that we were surveilling. Iwas at the northern most part
and then the other units werethe southern most location was
five miles from me. So we weretrying to rally all the troops

(01:16:15):
to come to the center.
Okay, and that took time. Evenwith license sirens, takes time.
So three minutes, formulated aplan and decided to do car stop.
Now people say, well you knowyou have poor planning, know
this, you know, whatever, youknow. Life.
People don't understand there'stwo types of car stops, know.

(01:16:39):
And people say, high risk, lowrisk, no. I said, no, forget
that crap, you know. There's acompliant car stop, and then
there's a non compliant carstop. That's it.
I mean there's nothing else. Allcar stops are high risk. I don't
give a crap if you're stoppingan old lady, You don't know
whether she's got a derringer inher hand or something, know.
Those old ladies are mean, know.So compliant, non compliant.

(01:17:03):
As soon as Ben hit the lightsand the siren, these guys jumped
up and looked behind them andthen Ben starts to try to pass
them to block them. It turnedinto a non compliant stop. We
started having bumper cars goingsouthbound on 80 Second Avenue.
We're about two blocks.Literally ramming cars, ramming
each other like this until welost control of our car.

(01:17:27):
John hit hit a cement wall. Theylost control of their car
because Manausi had rammed themand and they kinda spun up with
their nose.

So they pulled over, you got called on the
radio, how far out you when theybecame non compliant? They
because you didn't do the stop.You were there Yeah.

Was I was Oh, you

were there at the stop. Okay.

Yeah. I I was I was the second when? Yeah. I was the
second car on the stop. Okay.
Okay. And John John Hanlon, youknow. It was Ben Grosven was
first, I was we were second, andthen Manaus. So when Ben pulls
off to the left to try to blockhim, we we were right behind him
at that point. So we wereinvolved in bumper cars crashing
and crashing and crashing.

(01:18:08):
And something happened, I don'tknow what we lost control
somehow and John hits us a brickwall, know, a cement wall on the
right side of the street.

So you're in the passenger seat?

I'm in the passenger seat.

And he's driving.

So John's driving, okay. And I didn't see this but
I was told later but from thecrime scene, the car spun
around, the bad guy car spunaround to their left and Manausi
had already ran and he said,hey, if they make a full u-turn,
they're gonna be free and clearto go back north. So he decided
to random a second time and herandom hard and he pushes them

(01:18:45):
into a civilian car in adriveway, up against a civilian
car, up against a tree. And thenManausi the third side of the
box. So they were pinned inbetween two cars and a tree.
And that was the car stop. Okay?And it was set. I mean, you

(01:19:08):
know, it was set to go. They youknow, Gordon McNeil arrives like
a few seconds later and BenGrogan had had been right behind
them.
They jump out. I'm shaking offthe effects of the crash you
know, and I'm you know, tryingto figure out which way is up,
you know. And I looked and I sawsaw where the cars were and I
start coming out of the car. Isaw Ben Grugin and and Gordon

(01:19:30):
McNeil jump out of their carsand I hear, FBI, police put your
hands up. And they you know,remember the movie Gladiator
where the first scene in themovie when when they're looking
at the at the what how theGerman Germanis are gonna
respond and then their couriercomes back without a head?

(01:19:50):
They say no. Well, when when wetold when we told the bank
robbers to come out with theirhands up, they said no because
they responded with rifle fire.I mean, right then. I mean, it
wasn't even like, hey, you know,who are you? Hey, don't hurt us.
No. Automatic you know,automatically went to gunfire.
Okay? And what started there waslike a three to four minute gun

(01:20:15):
gunfight between a total of 10men in an area about the size of
a half court basketball court.Okay.

So as you're explaining this, me just say on
on the side, I I have imagery ofthis just because a lot has been
done with it. So I have like a amodel of where the cars are
parked and the trees and whereyour car is parked. So I'm I'm
looking at this in real time andmaybe you can attach some of
this to the videos just to havea better understanding of

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'm looking at images that you Okay.

Were so so you you have you have you have an
overhead view, a diagram of theshooting. Okay? Yeah. Right.
There you know how the bad guycar is pinned between all these
vehicles, you know.
So my my thought was to runacross the street to to
reinforce the the the troops,you know, guy, because I had a
12 gauge shotgun. And I was at II actually paced it off, you
know, after the incident. I Iwas 55 yards away from a jumble

(01:21:08):
of cars, you know, plus therewere agents and band guys in the
same area. I wasn't gonna use ashotgun at fifty five 50 yards
when you got friendlies on bothsides, you know. So I figured I
had to get close, you know,close and personal I guess.
And I ran across the street.It's funny how training kicks in
and everything starts going. Iwas in total, I was perfectly

(01:21:31):
calm, I was in control andthings slowed down. They call
that tachypsychic, tachypsychia.It's slowing down of time, your
mental processes.
Some people experience aspeeding up of time. I didn't
know that, but for me, it'salways been slowing down. But it
was slow, almost like slowmotion and I could see things.

(01:21:54):
Literally I saw Ben Grogan andJerry Dove bring their guns up
like this, that's about how fastit looked. Time had slowed down,
I mean, at least in myperception.
And I'm running across and I'm,you know, I'm calm. But there
was this thing going around, youknow, and I'm sure you've
experienced it. When bullets goflying by you, they make a

(01:22:15):
certain noise.

The cracks. The cracks are scary.

Yeah. So I you know, that that was that was a little
bit concerning. Know? Because

I guess they're probably subsonic, it's not
cracks, but it's different.

Well, no. I mean, the assault rifle was Oh, yeah.

Assault. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So those are cracks.

Okay. You were shooting two two three rounds.

Yeah. So those are cracks. Those are terrible.

Yeah. It's like

I'm more familiar with that than than subsonic.

You know, I knew what they were, you know, but
I'm thinking That's your bad.You need to get the cover, you
know.

It's a bad sound.

So I come around the side of Gordon McNeil's car like
this because I saw him byhimself on the left side of this
of the the line. So there wereedge there were gonna be three
edges on the right side, Ifigured the weakest spot would
be the one agent by himself. SoI decided to go help reinforce
Gordon McNeil on the left and Iwas trying to get to his left

(01:23:10):
side and then something veryunusual happened to me. I'm
looking forward like this andthe next thing I know, I'm
looking straight up at the sky,I'm looking at the blue sky. And
I think, mean, at that point Istopped being calm and it was
just totally not It's not likethe TV just went You didn't see
any picture.
I mean, I could still see andhear a little bit, but I just

(01:23:34):
couldn't figure out whathappened. So I'm thinking, how
the hell did I get on ground?And I'm looking I'm still
looking to Gordon McNeil and Isee Gordon McNeil. He's still
doing he's still doing this likebang bang. Well, I mean,
everything's still slow.
So but and my hearing wastotally shot. I mean not to put

(01:23:57):
it up, my hearing was totallyscrewed up.

Was it your hearing that was shot? Yeah. And I
couldn't hear.

So I got the shotgun in my right hand like this,
okay. And I remember when I camearound the back of the car,
Gordon McNeil's car, I had theshotgun at a ready position, not
port arms but in a ready. And Icame around the side of the car
and I had my the muzzle of myweapon pointed at Gordon
McNeil's back. And I had a roundof the chamber, safety was off,

(01:24:27):
and I had my finger on thetrigger and I thought, oh shoot.
You know, safety, safety,safety.
I brought the muzzle of theweapon up like this, port arms
and seek where my arm is. I hitwith a two two three round right
here. Okay, I mean you could dothat a million times and not
have the same result. And it wasjust, I mean, talk about a

(01:24:49):
miracle of miracles. Okay?
But see, I found that out afterthe fact. At that point in time,
I had no clue what the hell wasgoing on. Okay. And I got the
shotgun here, and I'm looking,I'm scanning, and I'm trying to
use my left arm to push myselfup off the ground. Another thing
that happened, was just allsuddenly tired.
Know, and all of a sudden like,you know, god, what the hell? I

(01:25:10):
mean, it's like I ran fivemiles, know, and all of a sudden
I was you know, I guess there'sall the energy seeping out of
you. So and I can see GordonMcNeil shooting and I'm
thinking, get up you son of abitch. Gotta help Gordon. And I
just couldn't do it.
I mean, just wasn't working. Andthen I see Gordon do a very

(01:25:32):
peculiar movement. Gordon's gothis gun up on the car, he's got
it he's cupped his revolver inhis hand like this. And then I
see Gordon do this, he looksback at his hand and I'm on the
ground behind him thinking, whatthe hell is Gordon doing? You
know, as I said, was one ofthose movies, follow me.

(01:25:53):
No. And then I realized when hebrought it back, he was like,
he's actually looking at hishand, examining his hand. I just
brings it back, cups it backdown, brings it back on the hood
of the car, and fires two moreshots. And then it dawned on me.
I said, holy cow, Gordon gotshot.
He got shot in the hand, know,and it was really he he was hit
with a two two three round rightright between the fingers like

(01:26:15):
this. Okay? When he was aimingthe gun, you know. I mean, talk
about luck. If that round hithad not hit his hand, it
probably would have hit him inthe shoulder or in the side of
the face.
But anyway, he fires his lasttwo rounds and he circles around
to the left and he goes overbehind cover to reload. Okay.
And I'm still there by myself, Ihave no idea what's going on.

(01:26:37):
Okay and I'm pushing and pushingand gunfire is still going over
my head and stuff. So I won't,I'll try to keep this short.
It's a funny thing No

I mean this is

joke. This is funny because you know, this goes back
to training and I don't knowwhether it was Marine Corps
training or FBI training, Idon't know. I honestly don't
know. But I stuck the stock ofthe shotgun underneath my armpit
like this for support. And I hadmy finger on the trigger.
And you know how tanks work? Youhave a tank, the barrel of the

(01:27:12):
tank, it's like this. When theturret turns, the muzzle turns.
Right. So you're looking and ifyou're gonna make this work,
gotta The muzzle goes this way,tank commander goes wherever the
gun's pointing.
And that's what I was doing. Imean, if the muzzle of my
shotgun was here, my eyes werehere. And I started scanning for

(01:27:36):
threats and scanned in amethodical pattern underneath,
over the hoods and trucks of thecars like this. And I'm
scanning, just constantlyscanning. The old saying, keep
your head on a swivel.
I was scanning, but I wasn'taiming my gun this way and
looking the opposite way.Everything was connected. And

(01:28:01):
I'm thinking what? Where thehell is everybody? I really
thought that.
And then as I'm scanning to theright, I see movement to my left
and I'm thinking, what the hellwas that? And I go like this.
Thought it was a threat. Andthen I see nothing and I say,
okay. So I started scanning backto the left, I'm back to the
right and then all of a sudden Isee movement again.

(01:28:22):
I'm like, what the hell wasthat? And then I said, God, it
scary, it was freaking me out.So I said, I'm gonna stop and
I'm gonna stay looking like thisand kinda looking to the left.
And sure enough, there wassomething weird going on. I see
this spray and I saw it's redliquid, skirting from this part
of my body, skirting past myshoes.

(01:28:45):
Okay. And it took me a couple ofseconds to realize, holy shit,
that's that's blood. I said, isthere arterial bleeding? My my
every time my heart pops, know,and I'm and I'm thinking, oh,
shit. You know who I thought of?
You'll love this. Guess who whoI thought of? Tommy Norris. I

(01:29:06):
swear to god, I thought thatTommy was went off the I said,
oh my God, I've been shot in thehead. I'm gonna look like Tommy.
See you. That thought came to mebecause, you know, and I'm
thinking, oh my God, I've beenshot in the head. You know? And
then I actually I actually put Imean, my left arm wasn't working
for some reason. I still don'tknow well.

I wonder why. I

put my shotgun across my chest like this and it
took a lot of willpower to letgo of the pistol grip. You know.
And it's like, ugh, gotta putthe gun down, you know. And then
I I took my hand like this and Iwent I expected to feel a bunch
of mush up here. Okay.
But when I felt my skull orsomething, that's just intact
blood. I went like this blood. Idid this a couple of times and

(01:29:50):
you know unbeknownst to me andyou know, God has mercy on
drunks and babies. I guess I wassomewhere around drunk you know.
Unbeknownst to me when I didthis, I was actually compressing
the flap of skin that wasflopping around.
I actually compressed it overthe wound. So it stopped
spraying but it was stillbleeding. But the spray scared

(01:30:13):
the crap out of me. So I said,okay. I said, my head's intact.
I said, it's no big deal. Then Isaid, man, gotta look at my arm.
When I looked down at my arm,that's the first time I realized
I'd been shot. And you know thisfrom training, a lot of people
and and the the uninitiated orthe inexperienced don't realize,

(01:30:35):
hey, you know, when people areshot or injured, a lot of times
they don't know they've beenhurt hurt. Okay?

Not right away. Not right away.

Not right away, no. Eventually it'll hit you.

You'll figure it out.

Yeah. But I was like stunned. I said, holy cow.
Because my arm had been, my leftarm had been almost completely
ripped off my body, Okay, I meanit was totally shattered. I mean
it looked like roadkill, it wasjust like meat and shit was
everywhere.
I actually reached down with mygood hand and I picked up my

(01:31:08):
left hand and I put it in frontof me like And I shook it. And I
said, holy shit, it's attachedto me. I said, that's my arm.
Then I said, okay. So I said,that's my arm.
I said, intrusive thought. Isaid, you're gonna have to have
your arm amputated today. LikeTommy Norris, oh my god, I'm
gonna look like Tommy Norris.I'm gonna you're gonna have to

(01:31:30):
have your arm amputated today.And I threw my arm back on the
ground and grabbed the shotgunand started scanning for
threats.
It's just bizarre, you know? Butthe thing went on so long, you
know, that and my hearingstarted coming back because
initially, when I took the headup here, it just the the I guess
the the supersonic crack orsomething, it just ruined my

(01:31:53):
hearing, you know?

Or getting shot in the head either way. You know?

Yeah. You know, I mean, that has a that has a
something some

Might have an effect. So

but eventually, I I heard the shooting went from
from my my 12 to my one to mytwo to my three. And I'm
thinking, I don't know what thenothing's going on here. I said
stuff's happening over to myright. So I started calling on
my on my back, know, and tryingto get around Gordon McNeil's
car so to where I could see onthe other side of the car. I

(01:32:25):
didn't wanna get up, number one.
Number two, I couldn't get upbecause I was disoriented and
stuff. So when I went around theback of the car, that absolutely
devastating because I saw BenGroggen and Jerry Dubber on the
ground. And I looked behind me,I mean, behind Gordon McNeil's
guard, Gordon was on the ground.

Did that fully hit you at the time or were you
still in such a state? Did likedid that you were going through
a slow motion thing. You justrealized that you were shot. You
realized like it was bad.Realized that you know, all
these things were like, did didthem being down, did you
understand what that meant?

Oh no. I I I did understand. Know, but you know
what though, I still held heldout hope because they weren't
moving. But I'm thinking, okay,know, I'm hoping that they're
still alive. Know?
And that was the motivatingfactor, okay. I need to do
something so that we can getaid, okay.

You said get up you son of a bitch.

Yeah, And then you got up. Pretty good. When I
finally got a full view of theircar and it hit me, I'm thinking,
oh, shit. I said, who the hellis in the car? And I'm thinking,
the bad guys are in the car.
And and I again, I assessed thesituation and, you know, it
became obvious to me that theywere trying to escape in the FBI
car. Okay. Now here's theproblem. If they if they the

(01:33:37):
only way to move that car wasback. Okay.
If they moved that car back,they would run over Jerry Dove,
Ben Grosven, and John Hanlon. Isaid there's no freaking way
they're gonna move that car.Okay. So I said, you know what,
I gotta do something. I've gotthe heavy weapon.
I mean for us it's a heavyweapon, know. I said, I've gotta
do something, know. And I'mtrying to figure out how to use

(01:34:00):
this shotgun with one hand, youknow. And it just kinda came to
me, was like what they say, it'san epiphany. I looked at the
bumper of the car and I'mthinking, okay, it's got a lip
on here.
I said, I can't use my left arm.So I said, I'll just put the
fore end, the stock, lip andI've got the stock back here,

(01:34:21):
I'll say, will be my left arm.It wasn't perfect, okay. The
bumper was here but my eyes wereup here, okay. So when I put the
shotgun on the bumper, thesights were here.
So I had to squash down, I hadto put my head down to where the
sights were to be able to usethe bumper as my second arm. In

(01:34:43):
other words, it wasn't perfectlylined up, the bumper's up here
at my eyesight, it would havebeen perfect. Life isn't
perfect. I had scrunched downlike this, because you know
what, a weapon is a tool. You'retrying to make the tool work,
you gotta make it work properly.
And to make that weapon workproperly, you gotta work the
sights, front sight, rear sight,you know what I'm saying. And I

(01:35:07):
think, okay, I had to squashdown and I had to find the right
sight. And that's when I startedusing the I mean, it's just
basically firing rounds into thepassenger compartment of the car
to keep them from moving thecar. Okay. And people say, well,
how did you wreck?
It was just one of thosemiracles. Just kinda came to me.
When I fired the shotgun, therecoil just automatically set me

(01:35:31):
back. And I was like on the sideof the car, when it pushed me
back, was in a sitting position.I had to go back.
In other words, just kind ofnaturally rolled back with my
back against the bumper, had theshotgun in my hand, let it slide
through my hand between my legsand I pinched it with my legs.
Then I put my hand up in theforegrip, racked the gun, came

(01:35:55):
back down to the pistol grip,brought it up and then turned
around, put the weapon on thebumper again. And I fired four
rounds in that configuration.And that was enough to stop them
from moving the car. Okay?
So mission accomplished. Okay?When I fired my all my rounds
that was empty, I turned aroundand I looked to my right across
the street, Ben Grogan, GilArantia and Ron Reisner. I took

(01:36:19):
my hand out. I said I said, it'sokay.
Come on over. You know? Andthey're yelling, stay down. Stay
down. You know?
And I'm thinking, stay down?What are you talking about? The
gunfight's over, guys. You know?And then it hit me.
I think, oh, shit. They don'tknow it's over. Because they
don't know where the bad guysare. I mean, this is still a hot
zone. And you know what?
I looked north and I lookedsouth and I was thinking, oh,

(01:36:42):
you know what? As thrilling asit was, I said, we are going to
die. Because I looked north andthere's like twenty, thirty fire
engines and ambulances. I lookedsouth, there's another twenty,
ten, 20, 15 fire engine andambulances and they were all

(01:37:06):
stopped about a hundred yardsfrom my position. And I'm
thinking, nobody is They're notgonna come to you right now.
Everybody's coming in, cavalryis stopped, yes? Because they
think it's a hot zone. Theythink it's still an active zone.
And unbeknownst to me, when Itook my attention off the
threat, that's when one of thewitnesses across the street said

(01:37:30):
that the driver of the in BenGrogan's car gets out of the car
and walks to within eight feetof my position and fires with
his left hand, fires down at myposition like this. I didn't
hear the gunshots because myhearing was toast.
The witness saw it, GordonMcNeil who behind his car but

(01:37:52):
kind of in a little bit in themiddle of the street said, he
couldn't see but he heard thegunshots and he saw the street,
the mecanum, the, you know, thethe tara on the street sprinkled
up like with the gun where thebullets hit and and threw up,
you know, fragments of the road.But I never saw it. The guys
across the street never saw it,you know, but, you know, it's

(01:38:14):
just an interesting littlesidebar. So and according to the
witness, the driver who ended upbeing Platt goes back to the
driver's seat in Ben's car andjumps in and they're proceeding
again to try to do somethingwith the steering column and
stuff like that. And I'm goingthrough a whole, and I won't

(01:38:35):
belabor the point, but I wentthrough a whole thought process.
I'm thinking, oh, there'sdenial, anger, bargaining,
acceptance. I went through allof those steps in like a second.
I mean I bargained, I talked toGod and God said, hey you know
what, I don't think you're agood bet, man. Because sometimes
God says no.

You got some work to do.

Yeah. You know what? And I'm thinking to myself, you
you know Ecclesiastes nineeleven?

You said it earlier. Yeah.

Okay. Now do you know what Ecclesiastes nine
twelve says? If I'm gonna die,I'm gonna take those fuckers
with me. Know? It's in thebible, I swear to god.
Look at that. Look at that. SoI'm thinking that as, you know
what though? If if I'm gonna dieand I thought I was gonna die
and I because I could feel thestrength. You know, I was I was

(01:39:23):
trying to stay awake and it washarder and harder for me to stay
awake and concentrate.
Because I would be doing this,would like, I'm looking, I'm
scanning and then I would jerkout, know, kinda like when
you're driving drunk. And I wasjust trying to shaking my head,
trying to stay awake and I knewright then that I was dying.
Okay. Said, hey, this is it,man. I said, if I'm gonna die,

(01:39:44):
I'm gonna take those two guyswith me.
There was still hope ofsurvival. I said, hey, if I
stand up in this middle, in themiddle of this gunfight,
everybody north and south of me,all those firing just are going
to know, hey, this guy'sstanding up and must be okay. So
that was part of the motivation.I mean, still wanted to survive
and I wanted everybody else tosurvive. So I kind of rolled

(01:40:07):
over on my side, on my knees andwhen I stood up, I drew my
revolver and I came up and Istarted moving towards the car.
And as I'm moving, I'm firing.And I wasn't like firing, like
walking. I would take two steps,set my position, find the front
and rear sides and fire. Andthen I'd take two steps forward,
find the sides, fire, two stepsforward. My thought is that it

(01:40:31):
was a very methodical process.
Two steps fire, two steps fire,two steps fire, know. But every
time I stopped, would set myposition, okay. The witnesses
said that he, the individualwith the red jacket, I was
wearing a windbreaker, like awine colored windbreaker. They
said, hey, he he actually peoplesay he charged the subject. The

(01:40:52):
other the other witnesses saidhe kinda like fast walked,
shuffled towards the back.
You know, to me it was very slowand methodical. Anyway, I closed
I closed the distance, know howit is, you close with the enemy
and and you know, and take careof it you know. I got as close
to the car door and I had firedall six shots and five of the

(01:41:15):
shots hit the bad guys, one ofthe shots missed. And I had the
last shot and I was right at thewindow and I shot the driver,
you know, shot him in the upperchest you know. Hit him in the
spinal cord up here on his neckyou know, so he was paralyzed
from there.
And at that point in time, thetwo agents across the street
came up to reinforce me. Okay,because they said, hey, you
know, we know where the bad guysare now. So one to my left and

(01:41:37):
one to my right. Know, Ron wasto my right, he said, hey Ed,
it's okay. Put your gun away,it's over.
And I tell people, I said, howmany times do you go through
training, training, training?Took my revolver and I one
handed went like this, put therevolver in my holster and I
snapped my holster. And then Istumbled back and almost to the

(01:42:02):
same spot where I started behindthe car and I collapsed. I was
just I was done. I mean I had nomore, I couldn't stay awake
anymore.
Just blood loss. And that'swhere the medics came in. It's
like pretty much over.Unfortunately Ben Grogan and
Jerry Dub didn't make it. Out of10 participants, two bad guys

(01:42:22):
ate ages.
Two bad guys died, two agesdied, that leaves six
participants. Out of those sixparticipants, five of us were
wounded. Okay, so only oneagent, one person out of 10 was
not injured. Okay, so it waspretty intense, pretty intense
gut fight. Then the rest ishistory.

(01:42:44):
It took me two weeks in thehospital, intensive care. They
said the initiative, we're gonnahave to amputate your arm. I was
like, I kind of was having athought process about that, you
know, kind of accept it. Youknow, and then they came back
and said, hey, you know, we maybe able to save it, but don't
count on it. Know, we don'twanna give you false hope if you
have to amputate.

(01:43:05):
But they said, we're gonna makean effort to try to to save your
ark. And I said, okay. It worksfor me, man. Otherwise, you'd be
calling me lefty. And and that'spretty much it.
Know, the rest of it was justrecovery, you know,
recuperating. It took me I wason light duty for twenty seven
months. I was on hardrecuperating duty for like

(01:43:25):
fourteen months at home. My armwas totally shattered. It was in
a big balloon cast and stufflike that.
I had five or six majorsurgeries and I had like five
minor surgeries for the arm toget it to where it isn't today,
you know. And I have about 50%usage of the arm, you know.

(01:43:46):
Which is better than nothing,you know, so. It's better than
nothing. Yeah.
I'm kidding. And that's it.

A lot has been written about this. You've wrote
a lot about this. Based on yourlessons, there's a bunch of
lessons learned that the bureaugets taught, you know, kind of
forever that law enforcement gettaught that a lot of people use
this as a use case for a lot ofdifferent things. All of that
being said, what are really thethe learning points for you as a
person rather rather than thetactical ones? Like, the

(01:44:12):
tactical ones, like, oh, weshould use these, like, you
know, the types of firearms youuse, the types of tactics that
go going on that.
But you as a person, what didyou learn from this?

Okay. That that's a very good question. That's the
first time I've ever ever beenasked that question clearly and
directly. This is what I wouldtell people. I said, number one,
be a good person.
Okay? And I don't mean you haveto be Superman or Batman, just
be a good decent person. Okay?Have your affairs in order. I
mean and I know, I mean And Idon't mean affairs like romantic

(01:44:45):
affairs, but I mean, have yourlife in order.
If you have a wife and kids orif you have parents and stuff,
have your affairs in order,okay? I mean, don't leave stuff
to chance, okay? The other partof it is, you you should prepare
to make every day your last day.I mean, that's my thought. Okay,
if I die today, am I gonna diehappy?

(01:45:07):
Not that I wanna die, but am Igonna say, okay, everything is
in order. My life is in order. Itell my loved ones I love them,
I show them love. Try to be agood provider, I try to love and
care for the people I love Andmy friends, try to be a good

(01:45:31):
friend to people. And tostrangers, be courteous, okay?
Because you never know. I'vealways been told, say, Ed, you
never know when that person thatyou meet, that person needs help
or you turn your back on them oryou ignore them or you call them
names, you never know whenyou're being tested. You never
know if that's an angel, okay?Coming down here to see how

(01:45:55):
you'll react to this need or aperson asking for assistance or
a handicapped person looking forsome help. So I always try to
live life in the light, in thepositive and good, okay?
And if I was to go today, Ithink I would go with a clear

(01:46:17):
conscience. It's like, andplease don't get it wrong, I'm
not a saint by any stretch ofthe imagination, okay? I've led
a checkered life. But at least Ican say, hey listen, I did the
best I could. I loved my family,loved my friends.
I did the best I could and myaffairs are relatively in order,

(01:46:40):
okay? And I don't mind going.Now, if you have unfinished
business somewhere like a familymember or a friend or a
relationship or something likethat, then I hope you understand
what I'm saying, kinda thenegative side. But on the
positive side, you know, if youhave everything in order, you
know, it's like you're you'repositive with people, you know,

(01:47:01):
I mean, you could go anytime,know. So I'd say, no no problem,
you know.
I don't wanna preach to thechoir, but you know, it's always
you need some spiritual food,okay. You gotta have something
you believe in, you know. Imean, it's gotta be more than
just you, okay. It's your familyand you know. And again, I'm not
a priest or a preacher or arabbi or anything else, but you

(01:47:24):
know, you just have to live lifein the positive.
Know, I mean that's the best Ican do for you.

So everything that you said there was full of
humility, was full of like greatanswers. Did you ever have dark
moments from this?

You know, the hardest part for me was the
first six, seven, eight years onthe anniversary, it was tough
for me because I've always itwas PTSD and I found that out. I
think it was the seventh year,seven year anniversary. I always
kept asking myself, what could Ihave done better or what could I

(01:47:59):
have done differently to saveBen Grogan and Jerry Dove? Okay?
And that ate my soul, ate myheart, ate my mind.
And it wasn't until everybodykept saying, Ed, you did
everything you could. Okay?Everybody said that except one
person, me. It wasn't until theseventh year that I said, you

(01:48:19):
know what, I think Ben and Jerrywho are looking down on me from
heaven, I think they would agreethat I did everything humanly
possible to try to help them.And I think if they agree, then
I'm happy.
Okay. And you know what? It wasit was like a poof. The PTSD
disappeared. It was like, holycow, you know.

(01:48:39):
Because I I kept nagging thisquestion and it's like, I could
have done something better. Icould have done something
different. And when I when Ianswered my own question, no Ed,
you did everything humanlypossible and the results are the
results. It was like I wascured. I mean the PTSD
disappeared.
Know?

Was there any particular catalyst in that
seventh year why you came tothat conclusion? Did you do
anything or it was just a momentof clarity?

It was just I had to decide I guess mentally I had to
decide that what I did wasacceptable. You know, Because
everybody kept saying, hey Ed,you're a legend. Hey, you know
what? That doesn't mean crap tome. What could I have done
better for Ben and Jerry?
Okay. That's always been mythought. And always, it nagged

(01:49:27):
me. And not to diminish theirmemory, I mean, but it doesn't
bother me the way it did thefirst five, six, seven years.
Because I had to answer thatquestion and I had to accept it.
Everybody else accepted it andsaid, hey, they always said
positive things and so on and soforth. But I was the one that

(01:49:49):
had to finally accept it and toleave it myself. And it was just
I don't know. Maybe it was justtime, know. So I know.

So I I have been on missions where my friends I lost
my friends. Never somethingwhere I got hurt. Like I was
never hurt and I never got shotor anything like that. But I
lost my friends, and I thinksome of, like, our tackled
tactical decisions and mytactical decisions may have led
to that. So these are thingsthat I have also contemplated
of, like, what I could havedone.
And at this point, like, theanswer is, like, it doesn't

(01:50:20):
matter. Like, I can't take thatback. I can only live my life in
a different way

now. Exactly.

But all of that being said, you sound like
Batman, basically. Was like,what you described, and it's
with humility. It's just like, Ididn't know that I was shot. And
I kept going, get up, you son ofa bitch. And I did that, and
then I started emptying my gun.
I thought I was doing this, andthen I did this. And then it
like, it it's to hear yourstory, it sounds impossible. And
it sounds it sounds likesomething that books and movies

(01:50:47):
are written about.

You know, what's Otto saying? God is my copilot
or something like that. Know,mean, again, don't wanna get
all, you know, mushy. But youknow what? I've I've always my
whole family, you know, hasalways been, you know,
religious.
My mom took us to church everySunday until I was 18. And then
I joined the Marine Corps and Inever went to church again. I'm
joking. Talk about going to thedark side. Know you've joined

(01:51:12):
the military, it's like oh myGod.
But I've always tried to live mylife, like I said, a positive
manner, in a good manner. Butthe thought process there is
always, if you try to do good,God can call any one of us at
any time. You just have to hopethat the balance, the ledger is,

(01:51:36):
you've got a lot going for youas opposed to a deficit. So it's
just an upbringing. Mean, weretaught to family, church, God
country, family.
God country family. That's theway it's always been. Something
else that I was told when thiswas going on, know, I said, hey,

(01:51:57):
listen, you to take life forwhat it is. You were spared for
a reason, okay? Ben Grogan andJerry Dub were killed.
They said, you cannot let yourlife be negative because they
died, Okay? And there's no doubtin my mind that their actions
helped me recoup, regroup, andhelped me flank. I did a pull

(01:52:23):
the flanking maneuver on theband guys. Their actions gave me
time to regroup. Okay?
And they said, hey, the best waythat you can honor Ben Grogan
and Jerry Dove is to live yourlife to the fullest, okay? Live
life for them, okay? And I'mthinking, that is so correct.
You know, I I don't take anycredit, you know, because Ben

(01:52:45):
Grogan and Jerry Dobb are thereal heroes. You know?
I was told, hey. Listen. Youknow, the best way to honor them
is to live your life to thefullest. And I'm I'm thinking
that's what I've tried to do,you know, since then.

I mean, I think that that's a good enough spot
to end it for us. The the onlything I will will say is that
you have you finished that andcontinue to chase later on. So
the fact that you went toAfghanistan after that, you
know, that's you know, twentyyears later, you're like, I
wanna get back in the fight isonly a testament to your to your
character and who you are.

Rob, I've been so blessed and and I'll be the
first one to admit it, I've I'vebeen so blessed and and I thank
God for that, you know, so

Thank you so much for your time. This has been
incredible. My

pleasure. Success on your on your program. Okay?

Thank you.

Take care. Bye bye.

Sam Alaimo (01:53:28):
That's it for this episode. If you wanna check out
more from the podcast, head to0eyes.com/nobell where you can
see show notes, read more aboutour guests, and suggest guests
or topics of your own. Untilnext time, stay in the fight.
Don't ring the bell.

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