Scanning Your Environment for Mismatches

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Alaimo (00:03):
This is the No Bell podcast where we talk about how
to optimize your technology,life, and mind. We're joined by
special operations veterans,entrepreneurs, investors, and
others who have overcomedifficulty to make it to the top
of their craft by staying in thefight. Welcome to the Nobel
podcast. I'm Sam Malaimo, andI'm joined by Mark McGrath.

(00:26):
Mark, welcome.

Mark McGrath (00:27):
Thanks for having me.

Sam Alaimo (00:28):
Yeah. Let's start let's start from the very
beginning. Where did you growup?

Army brat. I was born in Fort Knox, Kentucky,
where we allegedly keep thegold. My dad was a West Pointer.
Both my parents were born in NewYork City and from childhood was
moving around constantly. Andthen in eighth grade, I settled
in Pittsburgh.
We settled in Pittsburgh with mymom and my parents divorced. So
I went to high school in, inPittsburgh. You know, I'd lived

(00:52):
in Germany. My father did anunaccompanied tour in Korea, and
my grandparents lived right herein Philly down at six o'
Lombard. So I lived there forabout a year and a half with
them.
Lived in Germany for threeyears, back to Kentucky, and
then my father had an assignmentin Pittsburgh, and then that's
where when my parents split.That's how I ended up going to
eighth grade in high school inPittsburgh. And then I went away

(01:15):
to college and joined themarines, and that was that was
it. But so I I kinda had aninteresting eclectic upbringing.

Sam Alaimo (01:21):
So bouncing around as a kid, did you I always ask
this question, especially withthe military guys, because I,
did did you get in trouble a lotas a kid? And I usually ask. No?

My brother did. But no. I was the oldest of
three. I felt like my brother,younger brother, got in more
trouble. At least he got awaywith more things than than than
I did.
But when your dad's an armyofficer and you rebel, You know?
I rebelled by going to themarine corps, and, I think he
was following Phish, the band,Phish as he was going through
school, but I did not get intomuch trouble. It's not that I
didn't do things that wouldn'twarrant getting in trouble. I

(01:51):
guess I had a good way of notgetting caught.

Sam Alaimo (01:54):
Oh, so so your brother was following Fisher on
the country, the band. Yeah. Andyou rebelled to go in the marine
corps.

That was my rebellion.

Sam Alaimo (01:59):
Yeah. What what what's with the rebellion
against your dad was? Yeah.

The the rebellion started in for me in 1985 when
my aunt, his older sister,married a navy pilot.

Sam Alaimo (02:11):
Mhmm.

And I start I always love the ocean. And, you
know, being around the army mywhole life, you know, it's like,
well, I'm gonna be in the armylike my dad. And then but I
really like the sea. And I sawthis meet this guy that marries
my aunt that, you know, flewplanes that landed on ships. I'm
like, well, that's kinda likethe best of both worlds.
And then that next summer, TopGun came out. Oh my god. And I

(02:31):
was 10, and that was lifealtering. And then I kinda wound
up just saying, no. I'm gonna bea navy a navy pilot.
And my father was like, yeah.Whatever. You know? That's I
guess that's acceptable. Youknow?
In high school, I went to an allboys Catholic high school in
Pittsburgh. Our disciplinarianwas a marine, and I did get in

(02:53):
trouble once. I got a fistfight, and I beat the crap out
of a kid, and I got summoned.And I was waiting in the office,
and there was marineparaphernalia around the office
thinking this guy must havesomething to do with the marine
corps. His name is misterWheeler, and he's gone now.
But he came into the office. Hegrabbed me by my tie, started
smacking me, threw me up againstthe wall, you know, say, you

(03:15):
know, fighting with, you know,fighting. And he kept calling me
McDermott, which is not my name,but he kept calling me
McDermott. He says, do you wannabe a bum? And I said, you wanna
be a bum, McDermott?
And I said, no, mister Wheeler.I wanna be a marine. And he and
he let go. Like, he let histalons out of my neck and said,
you can go back to class. So Iran around, told everybody,
dude, if you're ever in trouble,like, tell mister Wheeler you

(03:36):
wanna be a marine.
Like, two or three days later,my mother, I come into the
house, and she's crying. And shesaid, there's a message on the
machine from a staff sergeant,somebody from the marine
recruiting office, and then youhave to go see him. And why? Why
are the marines calling thehouse?

Sam Alaimo (03:52):
I'm like,

I don't know. Just ignore it until I went to
school, and mister Wheeler askedme if I saw staff sergeant Roe,
was his name. I said, well, no.And he says, if you don't bring
me back a business card in hisoffice, you can count on being
in detention for the rest ofyour career here at, Central
Catholic. So That's a hardcoreschool.

Sam Alaimo (04:12):
That's like a story I'd expect from the fifties.

Oh, man. It was, all boys Catholic school in the
early nineties was,

Sam Alaimo (04:18):
Is it still that way?

I don't think so. No. And I and I think it's
watered down. Like, when myfather went to all boys Catholic
high school in the sixties, youknow, when I went through the
nineties, you know, it justkinda probably is a diminishing
return. But, yeah, it was prettyhard.
I mean, in my class, let's see,just in my graduating class,
from high school, I I think wehad five or six marines. I was
the only officer, and then therewas about five guys that either
enlisted it, in the reserves oror active duty. In fact, my

(04:41):
buddy, Mike. So I convinced mybuddy, Mike, to get on the bus
with me to go down therecruiting office. And it was
not in a good it was not a goodneighborhood.
So we got on together and rightaway impressed, blown away, and
he asked me what I wanted to do.I said I wanted to be a navy
pilot. He goes, you know,marines are naval, and they're
naval aviators, and they land oncarriers too. And why don't you

(05:04):
sit down and watch this movie?And you can find it on YouTube.
It's called Warriors from theSea.

Sam Alaimo (05:07):
I gotta check it out.

Ten minutes, and it was literally geared towards
me and Mike. So we're sittingthere watching this video. I'm
like, wow. So wait a minute.You're telling me you can be a
naval aviator.
You go to sea and all this, butyou can be part of this group
that's doing all that? I'm like,totally, totally in. And Mike
actually just retired a fewyears ago as a master sergeant.
The the guy that went with me tothe recruiting with this, the

(05:30):
the video worked.

Sam Alaimo (05:31):
So he signed up. He enlisted when he

He enlisted when he graduated, and then I had a
Rossi scholarship. So I went to,I went to Marquette University
on a naval ROTC scholarship witha marine option.

Sam Alaimo (05:42):
You grew up in a military environment. Was Top
Gun the moment where you'relike, yes. I wanna do it?

No. I wanted to be in the military. Top Gun was the
moment that I wanted to be Yourwhole life you wanted to be in
the military. Yeah. From yeah.
For as long as I could remember.

Sam Alaimo (05:54):
And then Top Gun was the moment it turned into water.

I got away from the army. Yeah. I found my way
out. The sea in

Sam Alaimo (06:00):
the air, I guess. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. And I always like to joke. I wanted to be an
oceanographer, but Catholic highschool beat that out of me.
Yeah. But yeah.
No. No. I I wanted to be fromday one, like my dad, to go into
the, military. I remember takingan aptitude test as kids, and I
always came back militaryofficer, military officer,
military officer. It wasn't evena a thing for me.
And I wanted to be a pilot untilI went to college in naval RTC,

(06:23):
and we had a marine officerinstructor that taught us all
about, like, how to really be amarine. It's where I first heard
about John Boyers from him. Andhe got us so fanatic about being
marines. Like, you didn't careif you were a pilot or not. And
then when I found out that myeyes were no longer good for for
flying to be a pilot, I'm like,my whole life.
Like, I'm gonna be a marine, sowho cares? Like

Sam Alaimo (06:45):
Your friend group went and enlisted, and you
decided to go the officer path.You got a scholarship. But what
what made you pursue thescholarship in the officer path?

Again, when your dad's a West Pointer, you know,
I think they sit you down atsome point and they say, okay.
You can go to the serviceacademies, you can do ROTC or
the GI Bill.

Sam Alaimo (07:02):
Right. If

you wanna go to college, I think those are the
those are the three options. SoI probably could have gone to
West Point prep, but I didn't Ijust didn't wanna be in the army
at all. Plus, my father was onthe staff at the time there.
Yeah. The thought of being, likeYou

Sam Alaimo (07:15):
get that crutches.

Kid, you know, it wasn't really for me. And I just
didn't wanna be in the army atall. Like, I I absolutely was
hell bent on on on not being inthe army. I I wanted to be in
the naval services so bad,particularly the marines. Like,
it was it was huge to me.
So I went the ROTC route. And Iwanted to go to a Jesuit school
too. I went to Marquette, whichis, run by the Jesuits. And so
they have a very unique way ofof teaching and learning and

(07:38):
thinking and challengingassumptions and so it was kinda
like a radical, approach that Iliked. And having gone to the
the order that I had in highschool was Christian brothers,
and they were very much thedisciplinarians.
And I always thought that theMarine Corps was a snap compared
to graduating from CentralCatholic with with Christian
brothers. So I felt veryprepared, but I remember them

(07:58):
telling me, like, his name wasbrother Clement, he was our
guidance counselor saying, nowit's Jesuit school's for you.
You need to go to a Jesuitschool. You ask way too many
questions. It's they're perfectfor you.
And and he was right. I I lovedit. It was a great time.

Sam Alaimo (08:12):
So what did you do in the marine corps?

I was an artillery officer.

Sam Alaimo (08:15):
Tell tell me about that. Like, what was the, how
did when you when you first gotin there, what was the training
like? How did it kick off?

Yeah. So so all marine officers have to go to
OCS, and then when you'recommissioned, I graduated, I
went all marine officersregardless of where you go, go
to the basic school, which issix months. So regardless of
what your specialty is gonna be,you're gonna be basically
infantry officer first. And Isay infantry officer, like,
everybody's gonna be able tocommand a rifle platoon

(08:41):
regardless of, you know, being apilot, a lawyer, a logistician,
artillery guy, it doesn'tmatter. Everybody goes to that
training first because everymarine's a rifleman.
So you had that commonexperience. And then when you
graduate and you find out whatyour, you know, your specialty
is gonna be for me wasartillery. Like, the infantry
guys stay there and they gothrough another ten weeks, I
think it is, of officer courseor artillery school six months.

(09:03):
So I went to report to my unitout in the fleet, which is the
first battalion, twelve marines,was in, third marines in Hawaii.
And then you did, like, sixweeks of on the job training,
and then you get sent back toFort Sill, Oklahoma for six
months of artillery officerbase, of course, and then from
there, I went right todeployment in Okinawa.
So out to the out in the fleet.Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (09:25):
Rock and roll. So was was it Taylor your your job
the whole time you were in theMarine Corps?

For my fleet tour, yeah. And then I was, an officer
recruiter before I got out. It'scalled an officer selection
officer in Oso. I did that, andthen I went to the went to the
civilian world.

Sam Alaimo (09:39):
So let's dig into to nine eleven because I I know you
were deployed during nineeleven. Do you remember, like,
the exact day, the exact moment,what you're Yeah.

We end we were about to deploy. So September
10, was a night like any other.Everybody everybody went to bed.
My platoon sergeant was away,and one of my corporals was
acting liaison chief. I was theliaison officer in charge of all
the four observers andeverything.
And we were doing a sand tableexercise with our rifle
battalion, which is thirdbattalion, third Marines. And I

(10:08):
said, look. If anything happensor you need anything, just call
me and and I can help, you know,because you're gonna be kinda
under undermanned or whatever.Most marines, they never did
that, though. They they alwaysknew what they needed to do.
Officers just would have to tellthem what to do, and they would
always get it done, which is oneof the great things about being
a marine. But, the phone keptringing. You know, in Hawaii,

(10:28):
you know, we were six hours offNew York time. Like, the phone
keeps ringing. And I'm like,what the what the hell?
Like, look, you know, look atthe clock. It's like, well, it's
too early for him to be callingunless he's, like, getting
everybody up at, like, 3AM orwhat the what the fuck. So I
finally get up because my thenwife says, you know, get up and

(10:49):
go answer the damn phone. Like,the cell phones are all going
off. And this is, like, thefirst cell phones.
Like, we were just, like, the myfirst ever cell phone. I answer
it, and it's my buddy, Matt,who's in my battery, and he goes
I go, what the fuck? And he'slike, dude, shut up and turn on
the TV right now. The fuckingWorld Trade Center has been
attacked. Yeah.
I got chills thinking it. I turnon the TV. And I'm like, holy

(11:15):
shit. My first thought was,like, do you know how many times
I've been on the roof of thatobservation deck in Acadia with
your families from New YorkCity? But then, like, all of a
sudden, you're like, this isn'ta dream.
Like, this is this is real. It'sabout to go on. Like, everything
that we've been training for,it's it's gonna be time to time
to go. And it took us forever toget on base that day. Couldn't

(11:36):
get on base.
We assembled at a house inKailua, Hawaii, and we watched
TV. And I remember calling inand saying, hey. We're stuck out
here. I won't let anybody on.Eventually, we got back on, and
I remember, our the battalioncommander of the rifle battalion
telling us, quietly get ready.
Quietly get ready. This is it.So, yeah, I think everybody
wanted to get their hands in it.Yeah. Then we deployed the

(11:59):
train, and we were hey.
Tahkalo Training area in Hawaii.It's high altitude. Well, guess
what? The mountains ofAfghanistan are high altitude.

Sam Alaimo (12:08):
Pretty high altitude.

Yeah. And they ended up not sending third
Marine Division at first. Sofirst and second went, we were
what's called the speed bump incase the Koreans tried anything,
North Koreans tried anything.

Sam Alaimo (12:22):
Oh, man. You're you're a

guard fix. Yeah. That was our mission. So often
then we all had for guys thatwere my year group, we had b
billettes that we had to go to.So some guys went to boot camp
like Oregon the Drillfield.
A lot of guys went torecruiting. I I went to
recruiting. And then on our bbillettes, which you guys will
call shore tours, the OIFstarted and was over pretty

(12:45):
quick, and the monitors arelike, yeah. You guys should get
out and go make money because itthis thing's over. Who knew?

Sam Alaimo (12:53):
02/2004, they thought it was over.

Yeah. Who knew?

Sam Alaimo (12:57):
I can't even get to see without knowing that what
came after 02/2004.

Looking back, I I guess you could have thought
that that would happen, youknow, especially a lot of the
books that they made us read. Iwould thought, well, the
protracted gorilla war. That'slike that one book they made us
read, Street Without Joy byBernard Fall, Firepower
Unlimited War. I mean, we werealways learning about these
things. It was funny because atOBC, at artillery school, they

(13:21):
weren't teaching us how to usesupporting arms versus
insurgents.
It was about how to usesupporting arms versus, you
know, columns of Soviet troops,and that was in '99.

Sam Alaimo (13:33):
Totally unprepared for the guerrilla war. Totally
unprepared.

I I say, like, as as marines, we kinda were
because Somalia had happened andthen, like, things like Kosovo.
Yeah. And it was always kind ofa a discussion and, you know,
the like, the the best aboutbeing in the marines, one of
them, is the professionalreading program. I mean, a lot
of the books that we were meantto read, like like I just
mentioned, Street Without Joy byBernard Fall, Mal's book on

(13:56):
Guerrilla Warfare is on thelist, Jacob Var. I was always
into that.
Like, I always kinda like the,like, the guerrilla warfare
stuff was really fast. It'sstill I read a lot about
guerrilla warfare and take theconcepts actually and teach it
to companies. Yeah. I I find itfascinating. I always found it
fascinating, like, how becauseit's a very marine thing too.
It's like, how can we do so muchmore with so much less, you

(14:17):
know, and and and, like, be putin, like, the worst conditions
and just be laughing about itand, like, ah, who cares? This
is how it goes. So but, yeah,no. They they told us I'll never
forget. It's like, you boys it'slike, no.
We can do he was from the South.Ain't no we can do for y'all.
It's like infantry officers,artillery officers, there's far

(14:38):
too many of you. And guess what?You don't have a combat fit rep
or an expeditionary medal.
Everybody behind you're gonna belumping over you for years.
They're gonna be leaping overyou. You should get out and go
make money. Go go take what youlearned somewhere else. So we
did.
I I can go out with my my bestfriends. Very few of them stayed
in. Most of us most of us gotout.

Sam Alaimo (14:57):
Fuck. Okay. So let's let's wrap up the military. What
was it it like, on the one hand,the best aspect of the military
you got?

The marines. Being being a marine and being with
marines and leading marines,there's there's no part of my
identity that means more to methan being a marine.

Sam Alaimo (15:14):
Do you still have marines in your life?

We just had a reunion last month in Michigan
with our old battery, and we gottogether with our battery
commander who retired as acolonel, and we all love each
other like brothers. And, youknow, of course, anywhere you go
and you see that equal globalanchor and, you know, you go up
and talk to anybody and it blowspeople away. Like, wow. You can
just go up and talk to somebody.I I won a bet one time, hundred

(15:38):
bucks.
We were in Minnesota in acorporate event, and the ESPN
baseball crew was was there. Itwas Rick Sutcliffe, Aaron
Andrews, and and Dusty Baker,who's now back managing again.
And this is one of those yearsthat he'd been fired, and he's
commentating. And I go, I betyou I can get Dusty Baker to buy
me a beer. And they're like, noway.

(15:58):
You know, everybody's throwingtheir money down, like, watch.
So I get up and I walk over, andI tap Dusty Baker on the
shoulder. And all they see is mewalk over, tap Dusty Baker on
the shoulder, hip up, and giveme a hug and, like, sit down and
have a drink with me. He's amarine. The baseball manager.
That's they're like, how did youdo that? How did you do that?
Like, oh, Dusty's a marine. Andwe didn't talk about baseball

(16:19):
once. We talked about the marinecorps the entire time.
Great guy.

Sam Alaimo (16:23):
The marines have a gift that they've managed to
maintain that camaraderie. Like,not just while you're in, but
after you're out as well. Soit's more powerful when you get
out.

You're mandated, I think. They inculcated you never
stop never stop learning, neverstop never stop, you know,
earning that title. I mean,you're constantly, constantly,
constantly living up to it, or,you know, being challenged to
live up to it, and everybody'strying to do the best they can.

Sam Alaimo (16:46):
What about the worst aspects of the Mozart?

The worst that well, I'm sure we could relate
to lots of things. You know?Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (16:52):
Should he show you the one that stands out that you
can you you think you'reactually able to fix now with
your current philosophicalendeavors?

I don't know. I mean, again, the bureaucracy is
so strong in the defensedepartment. Like, you'd think,
oh, it'd be great to, like, bethe guy that came up with a
solution. I just eliminatedhurry up and wait. Oh god.

Sam Alaimo (17:08):
I can't even imagine.

I think the other thing I loved about the marines,
you know, it was veryhierarchical in garrison, like,
very hierarchical. But in thefield and, you know, it's very
flat. Like, every you know, yourofficers are always with the
with the troops. You know, itwasn't like the officers are way
back there and the and thetroops are over here.

Sam Alaimo (17:25):
And hovering ahead in the helicopter. I love the
philosophy. Everyone's arifleman. I love it.

Yeah. And even now, like, when we get together
these reunions, there's very fewofficers. There's very, very few
of us. I mean, there's a lotmore marines. So when we get
together, it's still kind ofthat really tight bond.

Sam Alaimo (17:40):
Even when I was a kid, I was debating on becoming
a marine officer or an enlistedSEAL. Even now, the pull's
there. Because even just themarketing aspect alone of the
marines is so powerful. But thento hear everybody talk about it,
like, their light their eyeslight up talking about the
marine corps. That's a powerfulthing.

Oh, yeah. I mean and like we're saying at the
beginning, I mean, I I thinkmarines and seals, they have a
lot more common than than thanothers. I mean, you know, we get
the best emblems. Right? It'sboth we both have an eagle with
an anchor, and then, you know,you get a little little bit of
difference.
So with the Trident, so insteadof a Trident, we put the globe
up, but, no. It's all good.

Sam Alaimo (18:13):
So you got out of military, bridged the gap
between getting out and thenhaving your company now so we
could see how that flows.

So I initially got into medical sales with a start
up that was actually owned andoperated by some former marines,
which, by the way, we're notallowed to say that term
anymore, former marines. What doyou say? Marines. So if you're
alive, you're a marine, unlessyou got kicked out, then you're
an expert.

Sam Alaimo (18:34):
Fuck. I love it.

Yeah. No. No. It was, general Amos, our common a
few common months ago, came outwith an order, like, I don't
ever wanna hear foreign marine.You're a marine till you die.
So and then even then, you know,you're either gonna be in hell
with all your old buddies or upin heaven guarding the streets
according to the song.

Sam Alaimo (18:49):
I love the logic.

I got out. I did medical sales. I kinda went
through a lot of what they calljunior military officer
recruiting, like, where, bigcorporations are looking for
shift managers or whatever, anda lot of it seemed boring to me.
And medical sales was kind ofinteresting. The medical part or
the sales part?
Kind of the medical like, Iguess, the sales part. Like, it

(19:10):
was going out and interactingwith with people.

Sam Alaimo (19:12):
So that appealed to you immediately Yeah. Coming out
of the military?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, having been a liaison officer
for two years and then havingbeen a recruiting officer.
You're kind

Sam Alaimo (19:19):
of selling anyway. Yeah.

You're kind of selling and you're kind of going
back to, like, reading aboutguerrilla warfare and stuff. I
mean, you are kind of like anembedded advisor and it's kind
of the same thing is, you know,in a medical situation, like,
you're trying to embed yourselfwith whatever you're selling. In
my case, it was diagnosticpathology. Like, you're trying
to become part of the team ofthe dermatology office or the
gastroenterology office orwhatever. And it was fun, but I

(19:43):
got bored with it.
And then I went through anotherrecruiter that specialized in
they were just looking for,like, say, seals, green berets,
rangers, marines, pilots. Like,they didn't want not
gunfighters.

Sam Alaimo (19:57):
Right?

I mean, like, they didn't want logisticians or
supply officers or whatever. Andthey had a different recruiting
approach, and he goes, you everheard of, like, investment
wholesaling? And I'm like, no.What's that? Like, well, you
work on Wall Street, and yougotta get licensed, and you're
basically gonna sell investmentproducts to, financial
institutions.

(20:18):
I'm like, yeah. Sign me up. Thatsounds really fun. You know,
like, the the dynamics and chaosof Wall Street. And I found that
to probably be the bestapplication of of what is they
taught me in the in the marinecorps.
What year was this? This was '5.

Sam Alaimo (20:31):
So this was a few years before one of the worst
deceptions in American history?Yeah. Did that impact your
career?

Oh, yeah. I mean, we're about to have the
fifteenth reunion this year ofthe team that I was on through
the financial crisis, and we'retighter than it's funny. It's
the only place outside of themarine corps where I ever felt
as tight with a group than I didwith this group of guys that we
this is the fifteenthconsecutive year that we're
gonna get together, next month,and it's going through that

(21:01):
together. We had a very,interesting leader that wanted
to make an external sales teamthat had zero financial
experience. So two of us wereveterans.
He was looking for, like,college athletes, like, drug
reps. Like, I I hit a few of thewickets, and we set records. It
was so much fun. But then to gothrough that immediately, not

(21:24):
knowing what you know, nothaving come up in that industry.
Like, I I wasn't scared orworried.
Like, you know, I used to usepeople freaking out, and you
read about people jumping offskyscrapers and things like
that. I don't like nobody'sshooting at us. Like, there's
you know, I got friends inAfghanistan that are getting
shot at right now or living in ahole. Like, I get to put a suit
on today and, you know, stay ata Ritz Carlton. Like, is this

(21:45):
really that bad?
Like, you know, I I just had agood different way of of looking
at it, And it was in that pathof the just the chaos of markets
that I started going back to thewarfighting curriculum in the
marine corps and pulling outBoyd, getting right back to to
John Boyd and realizing that Ihad I had to go in deep, do,

(22:07):
like, deep questions about whatit was that the marines actually
taught me because it was a lotmore than I realized.

Sam Alaimo (22:14):
So your first exposure to Boyd was the marine
corps. Let's let's let's divein.

Enable RTC. Yeah. We learned about it in the
evolution of the art of warfarewarfare class in Naval RTC in
college.

Sam Alaimo (22:23):
So lay it out for anybody who doesn't know what
Boyd is and what OODA loop isand what VUCA is. How how do you
elaborate on that?

Yeah. So John Boyd was a retired Air Force colonel
and which is often what he'sjust reduced to. He was a
fighter pilot, and he came upwith this four step process
called OODA loop that helps youmake decisions in chaotic
nonlinear environments, andthat's about that's about it.
That's kinda how we all kindalearned it initially. Right?
Like, you know, we're in a one vone situation, and your oodle

(22:51):
loop is faster than mine, youwin. And my oodle loop's faster
than yours, you win. And it's ait's an oversimplification of
something that's designed toempower you to thrive in any
situation to achieve excellenceeither individually or as a
team. So Boyd's kind of thisradical that as a young
lieutenant and junior captain,he writes the definitive air to

(23:11):
air combat study that's still inuse by NATO Air Forces today in
his free time. He comes up withalso called energy
maneuverability theory, whichis, the trade offs, the gain and
loss of energy, the turn insidethe other.
It's a it's a mathematicalformula, and I'm a historian,
and I always botch it inlayman's terms. But it's
basically how do we gain or loseenergy faster than our opponents

(23:32):
in certain situations. And it itforms, like, the design of a
tens and f fifteens and fsixteens and all that stuff all
came from f eighteens all camefrom Boyd. He retires from the
air force, and he goes on thisjust sabbatical, like this
permanently self induced exile,where when he comes out, he
publishes this paper calledDestruction and Creation. And

(23:53):
Destruction and Creation is acombination of Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle.
Like, we we you can never, withany certainty, or accuracy,
calculate exactly where you are.We could do one or the other,
but but you can't do both.Godel's incompleteness theorem
is, like, you just you can'thave complete information, and
no system within itself canverify itself within itself. And

(24:15):
then the last one was entropy,the second law of
thermodynamics, that everythingall natural processes, entropy
increases. You know, disorderincreases.

Sam Alaimo (24:22):
Where did he seclude himself to do this kinda
hermetic study?

Yeah. So well, great question. So when he
retired, he lived in a smallapartment. He was living on his
retirement salary only. Heturned down I mean, he could've
worked for a defense contractorand probably made millions.
He was such a he was such agenius. He did it all in his
apartment. He did it onlibraries, the Pentagon.

Sam Alaimo (24:44):
He was just obsessed.

Obsessed. Yeah. He he he believed that he was in
pursuit of something. Even up tohis deathbed, he believed that
he was in pursuit of somethingthat was gonna improve how we
learn, you know, how we operate,how we thrive, and, the
complexity of our of ouruniverse. And it's a lot more
than the, you know, the thelittle four step tactical

(25:06):
process, but his work was socomplete and it was so
interdisciplinary.
I mean, he read thousands ofbooks. I've been to the archive
several times at Quantico, andI've seen his all his archives
here in the marine corps. How Iheard about him and how the
marines heard about him wasafter the Vietnam War and the
marines were doing a lot of soulsearching, They start talking
about maneuver warfare. Andthere was this, you know,

(25:29):
strange, esoteric, retired airforce colonel that goes around
the Pentagon and gives thisbrief called patterns of
conflict that's, like, six hourslong that nobody wants to go to.
And he's got these radical ideasof how you can, you know,
through through insights andorientation and harmony and all
these other ideas, like, youknow, how you can thrive from

(25:49):
the throes of combat.
And the marines actually takethe risk. Like, yeah, sure. Have
him come down to Quantico. Let'slet's do it. And he gives them
the brief, and that was it.
I mean, he was always moreaffiliated with the marines from
that point on than the airforce, and it led to a lot of
great things in the marinecorps. One of the big things
would have been, the bookwarfighting, which was then

(26:12):
called fully marine force manualone, is now called marine corps
doctoral publication number one.But, you know, warfighting,
which they teach at businessschools and they read in
boardrooms and things like that.And it's basically, how do we
cognitively approach warfighting? How do we cognitively
approach the chaos of capitalmarkets, the chaos of sports,

(26:32):
the chaos of the corporateworld, whatever it is.

Sam Alaimo (26:35):
It's radically different from what what I was
what most people are taughtabout OODA loop.

Yeah. To me, OODA loop is

Sam Alaimo (26:40):
like, alright. I'm on a sniper mission. I'm doing
an inflow right now. It's 02:00in the morning, night vision
goggles. I'm looking at myenvironment and assessing what I
would do, observe, orient,decide, act.
Yeah. And you're talking aboutwhat happens years before that
Yeah. And what's gonna happenyears after that, a full
encompassing philosophy. WhatThat's why you

that sniper to that position anyway. Yep. What
are the things that he's beentrained with that shape how he
observes and makes sense of hisworld, how he comes up with
ideas, how he learns, how hethrives and survives? It's it's
so much bigger than justtactical scenarios. Now you
could say, like, well, you know,they're gonna you could you
could have it tactically,operationally, strategically,

(27:20):
yeah, but but I think that Boydand the dig the deeper I dig on
this stuff, the more I realize,like, this this the the the
empowerment that you get fromreally delving into these ideas,
it's beyond anything that even II understood when I was in the
marine corps, and it's takenyears and years and years of
study and application in the,investment business to really to

(27:41):
really see it.
But then, like, once you see it,you cannot unsee it. Absolutely
cannot unsee it.

Sam Alaimo (27:47):
So let's play it out real world. When you were in the
investment business, how did youapply it?

So, well, kinda like the paint the picture I was
painting, like, why did I seethings so differently? Right?
Like, I hadn't been conditionedto think the way a lot of people
in that industry had beenbecause they came up off the
desk. They'd been in it foryears. They've been through
crises before.
Someone like me that's not toofar removed out of the marines
and is you know, I'm happy if Ihave, like, a carpeted floor

(28:12):
with a poncho liner in, like, abag to put my my head on. Right?
That's, like, my idea of luxury.Going into that world was
already, you know, kinda weird,and I just started looking at
things differently. Like, myexperience there was shaping how
I see things.
So, like, my biases, myconditioning, and all that

(28:34):
stuff. It it wasn't like a lotof the other people in that
space. It was more like, well,this guy is a veteran. He was in
the marines. He just sees thingsdifferently.
I would say to myself, nobody'sshooting at us. I'm gonna be
driving from, you know, thisbrokerage house to that
brokerage house, and there'sprobably not gonna be any IDs.
There's probably not gonna beany, like, checkpoints. There's

(28:55):
probably not gonna be anybodytaking a pot shot at me. I'm
okay.
Yeah. And then you read theseheadlines, and you're like, why
are people freaking out aboutthese headlines? Like, this is,
like, a great buyingopportunity. Like, if you're
doing all the right things, butthat's orientation. Like, if my
orientation is wired that way,I'd see things as an opportunity
where somebody else would see itas a total, abject crisis.

Sam Alaimo (29:18):
It's almost like the observe phase of the observe
orient aside act isn't justobserving literally what's
around you. It's observing thefull complex environment. Yeah.
What are people thinking? Whatare the mass movements at play?
What are the geopoliticalevents? What led to the
recession? What's gonna get usout of the recession? So you
were analyzing it strategicallyand then able to make the most
of it.

And trying to synthesize too. This is the
other thing with Boyd is thatanalysis is not enough. You have
to have synthesis. So trying tobreak things down analytically
and then put things togethersynthetically that other people
can't see, something somethingnovel.

Sam Alaimo (29:52):
Yeah. I would call it disintegration integration.

Sort of. Yeah. Because that's really what it's
destruction creation. That wasthis paper. It's it's breaking
things down, pulling it apart,putting it back together in a in
a way it didn't exist before.
But I always start talking aboutorientation. So orientation is
really where you gotta start.Orientation is you. That's what
makes you you. It's yourcognition.
You know, you see people sayit's the brain. No. It's not the
brain. It's the mind. The mindand the brain are are are two

(30:15):
different things.
It's the mind. It's like, whatdo you think? What do you feel?
Who are you? Where'd you go toschool?
Where'd you grow up with? Whatkind of family did you come
from? What what are yourcultural traditions, your
genetic heritage? You know? Howdo you handle new information?
What do you do with newinformation? What's your
appetite for learning? Are you areader or not? You know, all
those things play into, like, Ialso call it, like, your
cognitive software. It's likeyour internal operating system.

(30:35):
That's what shapes how you seeand make sense in in your
environment. Yep. Theorientation. So, really, the
starting point is that. Theorientation is how I shape and
and see things that make sensein my world.
So that sniper out there, hisorientation is what shapes
whatever it is he sees. Now hemight see something that's a
that's a threat, whereas asheriff sniper wouldn't say,

(31:00):
what are you talking about?Yeah. Just, whatever. Because
they have they have a differentcognitive understanding of of
things or different experienceor different knowledge or
different learning or whatever.
That's the critical component isis orientation. The the phase is
where people get like, peoplesay, well, the phase of this
thing goes that is if it werejust a loop. It's not really a
loop. And if you look at theOODA loop sketch, and that's how

(31:20):
I always define it. Yeah.
I know you read my substack andyou say I always put OODA loop
in quotes sketch. That's whatBoyd called it. And that's how
he drew it. He never drew it ina circular a circular way. He
would talk about it that way.
So in his early briefings, whenhe got out of the air force and
he's talking about patterns ofconflict, he was talking about
oodle loops, how Alexander had afaster oodle loop than Darius in

(31:43):
the battle of Gaugamela, youknow, the Macedonians versus the
Persians or whatever. And that'snot wrong per se, but his own
thinking evolved to say thatthere's something more than just
going through something fast. Ihave to be oriented a certain
way. I have to have certainbeliefs. I have to have certain
understanding because that'swhat actually empowered
Alexander to see theopportunity.

(32:04):
Not that he was just not that hewas just quick. Because you can
have a really fast doodle loop,and if you're going in the wrong
direction, it doesn't matter.You know? It's just like a a dog
chasing its tail.

Sam Alaimo (32:13):
You you like when you talk about these questions
you're asking during thatobserve phase or the orientation
phase, that's like injectingcaffeine into my veins. Like,
that's what it does to my bodyand my mind. And I imagine that
that's that's part of the poweris knowing what questions to ask
and then endlessly asking thosequestions to make sure you have
relevant up to date informationon who you are, what you are,
and where you are, and whatenvironment you're operating in.

(32:34):
Because that's like changing.That's like crack.
Yeah. So I I didn't understandthe concept without thinking of
it as a loop. So if you can tryto concretize it, like, when
you're in the investment firm ora company you're working on now,
how do you not see it as a loop?Can you walk me through what it
looks like in concreteapplication?

Ultimately, what you're doing is you're looking
for mismatches. You're lookingfor patterns of things that
don't add up. Something's off.Something's wrong. I got bad
news.
Right? You know, most leaders inin business, they're constantly
looking for good news. They justwant good news. If you're doing
OODA loop right, you're doingBOID right, OODA loop sketch
right, you're scanning yourenvironment for mismatches.

(33:13):
Those mismatches are youropportunities.
What sport did you play? Ididn't play sports. No? What
sport do you like to watch?Tennis.
Tennis. Okay. You know someone'sdominant lefty, right, or
dominant righty or or whatever,and you can identify a weakness.
That's a mismatch. Right?
Now you as the opponent, you'regonna play to that mismatch and

(33:34):
seize that advantage. But andthen or or do something novel
yourself such that your opponenton the tennis court has no idea
what's what's happening to me.Like, you ever see, like, a,
like, a sports team, actually,Notre Dame on the other week
when they lost to NorthernIllinois. Right? They're all
standing there like, what justhappened?
They have they have no idea whatjust happened to them because

(33:57):
whatever Northern Illinois wasdoing, Notre Dame had no answer
for. They couldn't identify themismatch. Northern Illinois kept
presenting mismatches to NotreDame that they didn't know how
to handle. Now why could thathave been? I don't know.
I would speculate and say, well,we're ranked number five. We're
Notre Dame. We're better thanthem. You know? That's an
unranked team or or whatever.
We didn't see them as a threat.We didn't see it as a legitimate

(34:19):
threat. Whereas NorthernIllinois found some gaps. They
found those mismatches, and theycapitalized on those, and the
other the other team had noanswer for that.

Sam Alaimo (34:27):
So break it down for a knuckle dragger brain like
mine. If if I'm the coach ofNotre Dame, what should my mind
have been doing in that moment?

Empowering people to make decisions at the lowest
level, to look for things thatare not apparent to somebody
coaching, coordinating from thebooth, or coaching from the
coaching from the sideline. Givethem the ability to make a
different decision. If if if theplay calls for the two hole and
the four hole's open, the twohole's not, then go down the
four hole. You know, give givepeople the flexibility and the
agility to do certain things. Asan example, that could that

(34:59):
could be, one thing.
You ever read When Pride StillMatter, the biography of Vince
Lombardi? Of so he went toJesuit schools. He went to
Fordham, and the Jesuits empoweryou to think and challenge
things and question things. Andif if something he would tell
his players, like, if somethingworks better, then do that. Even
if the play if the play calledfor this and that's blocked and

(35:22):
it's open and you're gonnascore, then by all means, do the
one that's open and you're gonnascore.
Don't don't sit there and say,I'm afraid of coach or I'm
afraid of, like, violating therules or whatever. You know? You
don't wanna do that because youwanna have empowered people to
be able to make those kind ofdecisions.

Sam Alaimo (35:36):
So by the time you're the coach on the court
and you you notice this is thisis fucked up, like, there's a
mismatch Yeah. You should haveidentified that three years
before. Possibly. Just like themarine corps did, everyone's a
rifleman's that anyone couldplug a gap immediately to win
the fight. Yeah.
So everyone else should belooking at their profession in
the same way.

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, so just let's stay on
football and and Lombardi. SoLombardi used to teach this
thing about the sweep. He hadthis class or school for
coaches, and John Madden went toit as a young coach.
And he's like, I can't do theJohn Madden impression, but he's
like, you know, we're sittingthere for eight hours just
talking about the same play. Andwhat he thought was crazy, like,

(36:17):
when we go through the same playover and over again for eight
hours, all of a sudden, thesethings emerge that we had never
seen before. Opportunities startto emerge. We start to look at
things differently even thoughwe're doing the same heuristic.
I mean, you you're no strangerto immediate action drills.
How many times have you gonethrough immediate action drills
over and over and over again tothe point where you're just

(36:38):
like, I wanna throw up. I'm sofreaking bored of doing these
things. But then when the momentcomes or the chaos comes or then
you apply that, you don't haveto think about it. You don't
have to you don't have to stopand think about it. That's part
of the orientation.
That orientation allows you toshape and see something
immediately or act immediatelythat you can figure something
out before your opponent does orbefore your enemy does.

Sam Alaimo (37:00):
How do you think about the difference? That's a
good example. So, like,immediate action drill. So if I
am training for a high intensitykinetic conflict, and I've done
a center appeal 10,000 times,leaving up to that moment, I'm
just acting on instinct. I'lljust do the center appeal.
Yeah. When the little ravinehappens in Afghanistan, I'm
getting fired out from theNorth. Yeah. But that's very
different from the coach. It'svery different from, like, let's

(37:21):
say, an officer who's set back,who's making not just an
instinctual decision forphysical movement, but an actual
tactical decision.
There's almost two differentoodle loops you have to abide by
depending on what your positionis.

Mhmm.

Sam Alaimo (37:32):
Have you ever broken it down that way?

Yeah. You you need to have trust. Right? So you you
I mean, are you so you'retalking about, like, how how
would a team do it with withleaders? Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (37:40):
The the the guy who's carrying the ball It's a
very different OODA loop fromthe coach. Correct.

So okay. So where their orientation intersects is
that we're we're the same team.Like like, every orientation is
unique, you know, yourorientation and my orientation.
But if we're on the same SEALteam, we're on the same, you
know, marine artillery batteryor the same football team, at
some point, we intersect that wehave. We're able to build mutual
trust.
And from that mutual trust,we're able to develop intuition,

(38:08):
and we share the same commongoal. And everything that we do
is geared towards achieving thatgoal, and that's we could go
through EFAS. That's anotherBoyd thing. If I'm your coach,
if I've done it right, youshould be empowered to make the
on the spot decision because youhave full awareness of what the
overall team goal is. And Ishouldn't have to tell you to do

(38:30):
something if you see anopportunity.
You see a mismatch. Youidentified a mismatch, and
there's an opportunity. Ishouldn't have to tell you to do
it. You should be able to briefme afterwards what you did, but
you shouldn't have to be toldwhat to do. Because what that
does is elongates the timescale.
Right? Like, if I have to goback and ask dad if I'm allowed
to do something, and he's gottaask grandpa and then, you know,
and, like, that whole chain, bythe time something happens, it's

(38:53):
over. You know, this is, like,you know, back to the the
corporate days. People are notempowered to do things. And by
the time they ask all the rightpeople, whatever they were
asking about, it's already done.
Like, it's over. Like, it like,like, the the time is so far
it's so far removed. And if awily competitor had noticed that
mismatch, they've already takenadvantage of that. There's
nothing you can do about it.

Sam Alaimo (39:13):
So you're a team of former combatants and athletes.
Were they were you guysempowered to operate that way?

Absolutely. Yeah. Decisions were that that's why
we still get together so much. Imean, because we trusted each
other with our literally withour lives, and you were
empowered to the lowest man todo the right thing. Everybody
knew what had to be done, andit's so much easier to brief me
about what you did rather thanto ask me if you're allowed to
do what you know you need to do.

(39:39):
That just that just that thatthat expands the time scale. We
don't we don't want that.Because ultimately, orientation,
we're trying to constantlyreorient. You know, my substance
called the world ofreorientation. Like, we're
constantly trying to build andaugment our orientation such
that we can compress those timescales.
So I can observe something and Iknow exactly what's happening. I
know right what to do withouthaving to think about it. I can

(40:00):
act, like, you know, if a flylands on my face, I don't have
to think about it. We can justwe can just do these things. You
know, like, one pilot's ejectout of a fighter, ask them, hey.
Do you remember what you didwhen you sat there and then, you
know, like, you squeeze yourcheeks and squeeze your legs and
then pull your head up and didyou know, going through your
your ditty? No. You just did it.Do you remember it? Nope.

(40:22):
Why don't you remember that?Because you had drilled and
trained for that so many timesthat when the moment of truth
came, it was instinctual, andyou didn't have to do anything,
except it. You just did it, andthen So

Sam Alaimo (40:33):
you're doing this now as a company. You this is
your work. You're helpingcompanies do this. I'm trying to
put myself in the shoes of,like, let's say let's say the
investment firm you were workingfor, they'd never heard of this
before. You come in there andsay, listen.
I know these guys are playingwith a significant amount of
money, millions, tens ofmillions, hundreds of millions,
billions. I need you to trustthem. I need you to let them

(40:56):
make autonomous decisions on theground, boots on the ground
Yeah. Without your approval andjust wait for them to brief you
after the fact? How do youconvince people to accept that
kind of that kind of autonomousaction without them having come
from it, like, without evenunderstanding it?

It's not it's not impossible, but it's it's very
difficult to observe in, say,big public corporations. It's
probably not not nearly as Ithink of, like, the bureaucracy,
the the risk aversion, the thelack of the lack of trust. You
know? They they're all commandand control systems. Boyd talked

(41:32):
about one of his briefs or ororganic design for command and
control, the difference betweenleadership and appreciation or
appreciation and leadershipversus command and control.
Command and control is a systemwhere we don't trust anybody. So
we have command and control andthere's wickets and there's this
and there's that and I have tohit and I have to be able to see
everything in real time andeverything's objective. Whereas

(41:53):
appreciation and leadership isthat I can understand the value
or worth of people, ideas, andthings. And with that
leadership, I can inspire andinfluence others to achieve
uncommon goals togetherenthusiastically. That's a
totally different thing tocommand and control.
That's a trust system. Yeah.Boyd talked about military units
about trust, about trusting eachother. And, you know, you it's

(42:15):
no stranger. You've been inthese types of units where you
trust each other literally withyour with your life, even in
training.
Because, like, you know, like,you trust the parachute's gonna
open. You know, I trust thatthis round is gonna do what it
says it's gonna do. Like likelike, there's there's there's
all this implicit trust. Whenyou don't have that, you can't
operate. And he he figured thisout.
He one of the areas that hestudied and you you've seen the,

(42:39):
the sort of epistemology ofBoyd, was the Germans after
Napoleon. You know, around whenClausewitz came out. You know,
Clausewitz was one of themilitary reformers after
Napoleon. And they're like, wecan't have this again. We gotta
we gotta figure out, like, youknow, what needs to change.
And a knack acronym that he usedto use is EFAS. It was Einheit,
Fingerspitzinger Fuhl, Auftraag,and, Schweppencht. And Einheit

(43:01):
was mutual trust. That if wedon't have mutual trust, there's
literally nothing we can do asan organization.

Sam Alaimo (43:07):
This is Bode at Klausowitz.

This is Boyd. Mhmm. Well, this is the Germans.
This is Boyd piecing togetherwhat he learned from, Moltke and
and and Clausewitz, the rest ofthem. The second one was
Fingerspitzingerfield because wetrust each other, because we
know how to operate, and we knowour immediate action drills and
stuff like that, we can develop

Sam Alaimo (43:25):
intuition so that now

we can communicate without even communicating.
Right? We we develop a teamintuition. Auf Trog or Auf
Trog's Tactic was sometimestranslated as mission command.
But, really, what it is isempowerment.
It's that if you know themission, you know what has to
get done, you know the finalresult desired, you're empowered
to do it. You don't have to betold by an officer, and you

(43:46):
don't have to be given a bookand, you know, this is the paint
by number step by step by stepby step. You don't have to you
don't have to have that becauseyou're empowered to do that. You
don't have to ask because youknow you're allowed to do that.
That's the mission.
So just do it. Right?Everybody's empowered. And the
last thing is a Schreppenckt wasa focus and direction. What's
the focus and direction point?
You know? What are we trying toachieve either, you know,
tactically, operationally,strategically? It doesn't

(44:07):
matter. And once we allunderstand that and we harmonize
around that, there was anotherBoid word was harmonize, not
synchronize.

Sam Alaimo (44:14):
I dig

it. Synchronize is for watches, harmonize is for
people. Once we harmonize aroundthose goals and objectives, now
we're truly empowered to thrive.

Sam Alaimo (44:24):
You talk about mismatch. Doesn't it pair with
isolation? Yeah. How does thathow does that match up go?

So so great great point. So in his brief, the
strategic game of question markand question mark, which he
reveals what the question marksare in the brief, they're
actually it's interaction overisolation. It's the strategic
game of interaction andisolation. You interact with
your environment. You interactwith your teammates.
You interact with yoursubordinates. You interact with
your superiors. You interactwith your customers, your

(44:50):
clients, whatever. You interactwith the people you're
defending, the people thatyou're protecting. You isolate
your opponents.
You isolate your enemy. You'reconstantly trying to isolate
your enemy to reduce hisoptionality, to limit his action
such that you yours can remainfree and independent. The reason
that you interact is for thegoal of free and independent
action so that you individuallyor you as a team, you as an

(45:10):
organization can enjoy freedomof action and independent action
within your discipline ordiscipline or domain. If you're
isolated and I'm no longerinteracting, or I could self
isolate. I could say, ah, weknow everything.
I've done this a million times.Oh, we've always done it this
way. I can isolate myself thatway. My my functionality through

(45:32):
the Loup Scratch is gonnadegrade because my orientation
and perception is gonna bemisaligned with reality. And
it's gonna misaligned withreality.
And it's gonna if I'm in acompetitive situation, it's
constantly gonna go like that.Me, that, you know, crashing and
noodle loop you've heard theterm crashed OODA loop. Right?

Sam Alaimo (45:48):
I know. Yeah. Yeah.

So that was one of the the terms people use a lot.
Well, it crashed his OODA loop.What what I meant is that I can
no longer function independentlyand freely. Notre Dame's OODA
loop crashed. They lost NorthernIllinois.
You've isolated your thinking.You've cut yourself off from the
rest of the world. This is howit's always been. We know how
it's gonna be. We don't have tointeract.

(46:08):
We don't have to get feedback.Because that's the other thing
with the OODA loop, you know,you're constantly getting
feedback. You know, you'reconstantly getting feedback,
making new observations, andlearning. Now you heard me say
the example cognitive software.I mean, it's just like your iOS
in your phone.
If you don't update it, youdon't refine it, revise it, it
just becomes obsolete. It it itbecomes dysfunctional. The human

(46:29):
computer is no different. Thehuman the human cognitive
software is no different. Youconstantly have to keep feeding
it because the volatility,uncertainty, complexity,
ambiguity of the universe isnever going away.
And I gotta I wanna I wanna surfthat rather than be, consumed by
it. So in order to surf that, Iconstantly have to keep breaking

(46:49):
my models and revising my modelsand my understanding of how that
VUCA, you know, volatility anduncertainty complexity, how that
actually flows. So I can createa state of flow.

Sam Alaimo (46:59):
Is there a certain cycle of the mismatch isolation
duality? Like, is it constantlyasking for mismatches to then
isolate? Is that how that thatfunction should work inside the
mind? It

can. Yeah. I might wanna interact with a a
mismatch. It might not be anisolation thing. It might be an
interaction.
There's an opportunity for us toto interact. If I notice that,
say, like, a mismatch, I knowthat certain customers in a
certain area aren't being aren'tbeing serviced or they're not
they're not getting this or notgetting that's a mismatch. And
that calls for me to interactwith them. And then I can

(47:29):
isolate my competitors that arenot doing the interaction and
isolate. I'm just telling youhow I speak Spanish, and I was
going into The Bronx in certainneighborhoods where you had to
speak Spanish or you'd be in alot of trouble.
Well, in medical sales, youknow, a guy is six three, just
wearing a suit with short hairbecause I was still in the
reserves. I looked like a cop.And people would just, like,

(47:52):
part it was like Moses partingthe Red Sea. Like, people would
just move away from me. Andwalking in these offices, and
they'd say, like, we don't speakEnglish.
You know? And I started speakingto them in Spanish, and I saw
the mismatch. People were afraidto go into these doctors'
offices because where they werelocated. I wasn't. So rather
than I isolated the mismatch,now I started interacting.

(48:14):
And I boxed out all mycompetitors. There was it was a
pathology lab. They weresending, great, their biopsies
to our pathology lab because Iwould interact. Where where and
then, like, any competitorwouldn't go in there anyway
because they chose to isolateaway from that. They chose not
to interact with that mismatch.
Because I I'll never forgetthis. I remember looking at
these reports. I'm like, look atall this opportunity. Like, what

(48:37):
is this? Oh, nobody goes inthere, man.
No. No. Don't go in there.

Sam Alaimo (48:40):
I see why you call your platform the whirl of
reorientation because this is aa never ending process.

Never ending process. Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (48:46):
And it's constant awareness. It it it keeps like,
the word that hits my head iscrack. Like, it's gotta be
addicting once you habituatethis kind of process. You're
constantly on and constantlyaware, and I bet then it it
feels uncomfortable beingisolated. It's uncomfortable
thinking you have it figured outat that point.

Yeah. Totally. Because you know you know right
then, I gotta break my model.Something's off. Yeah.
I gotta break and revise, breakand revise, break and revise.
Most people don't wanna do that.

Sam Alaimo (49:15):
Well, it's uncomfortable at first, and then
it's always uncomfortable to dothe inverse once it's
habituated. Yeah. Once you'recomfortable, like, literally
just opening your brain andunderstanding the world around
you, it has to hurt doing theopposite.

Comfort is, exactly, doing the opposite.
Thinking contrarily, goingagainst a crowd is not a
comfortable place to be. Onceyou feel comfort, that's the
biggest red flag to you. Like, Igotta break the model and redo
something because if I'mcomfortable, that's only gonna
lead to complacency. It's it'sthe same thing it's the same
thing in business.
You know, Blockbuster was numberone in everything, every

(49:50):
category in home entertainment.Right? Blockbuster was number
one until all of a sudden theyweren't. And it was just just
like just like that. You know?
They're they're no longerirrelevant. But imagine going in
there because, like like, theycould have bought Netflix.
Imagine going in there andpresenting to them, and you're
thinking, I got all these stockoptions. I got a house on Long
Island. Like, what what what doI what do I need to take this
risk for?

(50:11):
I'm comfy. I don't need to dothat. Like, Kodak's another
great story. Like, you readabout, can't think of the
author's name, but it's abillion dollar lessons was the
book. And they go in there.
They they discovered digitalphotography. Like, this is gonna
be the end of us if we don't ifwe don't do something about it.
And they're like, we've been inthe film business forever. We
know what we're doing. You know?
Know? Look at the mansion I livein. I'm I'm not I'm not taking

(50:32):
any risk. I'm not gonna losethat. You do have to have some
level of, you know, being ableto take risks.
I I always think I always liketo tell the story of Apple.
Like, I think that Steve Jobs,when when they threw him out the
first time, it's because he wasthat guy that's all smashing the
model. We gotta keep going. Wegotta keep making this better.
And they're like, no, man.
We've got money now. Like, we wewe can slow down.

Sam Alaimo (50:53):
We don't have That's right.

That's why and they got rid of him. And then
they brought him back becausethey realized that, like, to be
competitive, you have to havethat approach where you're
constantly reinventing yourself.You're constantly reorienting.
The the world of reorientationactually comes from the same
paragraph of a briefing calledthe Conceptual Spiral that the
name of our podcast comes from.There's no way out.
And what Boyd was saying is thatthere's no way out of the world

(51:16):
of reorientation because, youknow, volatility, uncertainty,
complexity, and none of thatstuff's going away. So there's
no way out of that. And if youdon't reorient, if you're not in
that world of reorientation,you're gonna get you're gonna
you're gonna get defeated.You're gonna become obsolete.
You're gonna become irrelevant.
It and you can you can you canoverlay that. You can watch any

(51:37):
sport. You can look at anybusiness thing. You can start to
overlay that. And like I'msaying, it's like, once you see
it, you can unsee it.
Yeah. And it's it's really easyto not easy. It's simpler. It's
more simple to predict whensomething's gonna derail or
something's gonna be successfulbecause you start to look for
those traits. That's what I wastrying to teach people in asset
management.
I'm like, once you get this,everything is just gonna woah. I

(52:00):
had never I never knew that wasright there before. I never I
never knew that was a good allthis stuff comes self evident. A
lot of people take like, whenyou talk about Boyd, a lot of
people will feel intimidated orthreatened that you're going in
there to tell them that theydon't know how to do x. So,
like, if I'm working with a,say, a football coach, which I
have, I'm not telling him, Iknow more about football than

(52:22):
you, and this is how you shouldcoach football.
I'm not saying that. I'm showingyou that if you take your
current model of what you thinkyou know about football and you
start challenging that andtesting that and smashing that
every week, week in and week inweek in week out, looking for
mismatches within yourenvironment and empowering your
people to make decisions withinthat framework, you're only

(52:42):
gonna get better as a footballcoach. You're only gonna get
better as a football team. Oneof the best books on this is
Score Takes Care of Itself byBill Walsh. Yeah.
He was the famous San Franciscoforty niners coach and coach at
Stanford. And knowing zero aboutJon Boyd, he wrote one of the
best books ever about, like, JonBoyd type thinking. Because,
like, I think successful people,it's inherent to them. They're

(53:05):
they're inherently doing this.Our argument is that when and I
think this was Boyd's too.
When you become aware of what'sactually making you successful,
now you can double, triple,quadruple that. That's where the
results become geometric.

Sam Alaimo (53:19):
There's a point I wanna hit because it you did a
post the other day that itreally struck my brain. You were
talking about how Boyd is notcommonly accepted. Yeah. No
matter how much he read, nomatter how much he studied, no
matter how much education, nomatter how sound the theory, he
was never gonna be trulyaccepted because he had a
military background. Yeah.
He had a knuckle dragger, bootson the ground, pilot Just

a fighter pilot.

Sam Alaimo (53:41):
Yeah. He was a fighter pilot, but in Korea and
Vietnam, if I understand. He wasactually a combat fighter pilot.

He he he flew combat missions in Korea, but
never fired a shot in anger andwas never, to my knowledge, was
never shot at. And he was not alead, so he was a cover man in
their formation. He he was not afighter ace that developed a
tactical model in Vietnam.

Sam Alaimo (54:02):
But he was a combat fighter ready in order to incur
that risk in the combat.

Oh, absolutely. In his Vietnam time, he commanded
what was, dubbed as spook base.It was in Thailand, and it was
where they were running the,like, the sensors and the, like,
the black ops out of inThailand, but he he didn't have
a he never commanded a fightersquad.

Sam Alaimo (54:18):
Well, I guess the point is that that's held
against him

Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (54:20):
When that is in fact the primary asset. That's what
that's what backed up all of hiseducation and made it worthwhile
and made it applicable to assetmanagement, to sports Yeah.
Entrepreneurship, to finance.Yeah. And it's ironic that that
those, like, the quote, unquoteexperts in theory would
discredit him for what makes histheory actually applicable in
the real world.

Right.

Sam Alaimo (54:41):
It stunned me that that's actually a thing.

So so what he did was is it related to his Korea
experience that came after hishis real corpus of work started,
you know, in theory, the latesixties when he came out with an
engineer energy maneuverabilitytheory. And if you read the Boyd
bio, it was when he commandedthe base in Thailand that he was

(55:04):
writing to his wife, like, I'mon to something. Like, I can see
it clear as day. There's thisthing I can see. It's gonna make
humans better off than they are.
Like, you know, he he wasthinking these things. He went
back and he revisited his timeas a fighter pilot in Korea in
the mid seventies. So he hadstarted this work. He went back
and revisited the air situationin Korea because it was a 12 to

(55:26):
one. Like, it was it was us 12to one over the over the MiGs.
And he went back and he exploredthat as part of what was called
the lightweight fighter program,which the results of that were
the f 16 and the f 18. The mythof Boyd is that, oh, yeah. He
was a fighter pilot in Korea,and he came up with this
tactical model in a dogfight,you know, whoever has a faster
oodle loop. And that's mostlywhat it's reduced to.

Sam Alaimo (55:48):
As if that would be irrelevant.

As if it would be irrelevant. And then I think the
other things come, well, hewasn't an academic, and he
wasn't a PhD.

Sam Alaimo (55:54):
As if that would be helpful.

As if that yeah. Exactly. And that was really
when so when he came up withdestruction and creation, that's
usually my litmus test. Whensomeone that they say they know
a lot about Boyd or Udo, I say,what do you think of destruction
and creation and how it applies?Like, what's destruction and
creation?
The paper that Boyd writes, theonly paper he ever published.
Just one paper. It's 11 pages,one paper. There's, like, 50

(56:16):
sources on it. Did you read it?
No. I did. I'm not aware ofthat. Then you can't talk about
Boyd.

Sam Alaimo (56:22):
Yeah.

Because Ooda, everything comes from that
paper. That's what he riffed offof his entire career was
destruction and creation. It'snot very big. I can have a copy
of it. Just a course.
It's not in your book. Yeah. Itjust so happens I have a copy of
it in one of my Boyd books. Butone of the one of the things
that got him on this was, like,how in the hell did me as a

(56:43):
fighter pilot with fivechildren, one of them has
special needs, and all the otherstuff that I have to do as an
air force officer, how in myfree time did I come up with,
you know, the aerial attackstudy or energy maneuverability
theory? Because he did all thatautodidactically in his free
time.
So think about that. You're ayoung officer, and

(57:06):
autodidactically, in spite ofall the things that you have to
do, you know, for your yourbillet in the air force, your
five kids, one of those specialneeds, somehow you managed to
write in your free time thedefinitive air to air combat
study that all NATO air forcesuse and the design theory that
is applied to all modernaircraft. That was really his

(57:28):
thing. It's like, how the helldid I come up with this and not
all these aeronautical engineersthat we have, not all these
astrophysicists from, you know,Caltech or MIT or whatever. How
is it that I came up with thisstuff?
And that was really his drivingkinda impetus. Like, what is it
that empowered me to do that?And that's how he came up with
destruction and creation, andthat's what he riffed off for

(57:48):
the next he wrote that that hepublished that in '76, and then
he died '97. So for the nexttwenty one years, he was
basically riffing off that.

Sam Alaimo (57:58):
It's incredible. Let's move on to sort of a
lightning round to wrap thisthing up. Sure. So random like,
radical pivot here. Give me asixty second pitch on on
psychedelics.
Any direction you wanna take.

So our interest in psychedelics and if you go to
our podcast, no way out, we'vehad a lot of guests lately
talking about psychedelics.We've had Jesse Gould. We've had
Norman Oller now twice on ourshow, wrote the book called
Tripped, which is crazy. MariaVolkova, and we we have some
others in in that we haven'tpublished yet. But we're a

(58:30):
veteran owned service disabledsmall business.

Sam Alaimo (58:34):
And The podcast or your company at home?

Company. The yeah. The so the four of us all have
What's your company called?Sorry. A g l x, Alpha Golf
Leamax.
Right? Aglxaglx.com. So we allhave service connected issues,
but we're you know, so we're aservice disabled, better known
small business. And the thingthat drives all of us crazy, and
I and I know that you sharethis, is how many vets are

(58:57):
committing suicide.

Sam Alaimo (58:59):
It's espionage.

It's it's out it's outrageous. And there are novel
therapies that aren't evenreally novel. These things have
been around for thousands ofyears, like psilocybin and like
ibogaine and like MDMA andketamine, and all these other
LSD and other things that canimprove mental mental health. We
had Norman Oller on the show,and he's talking about how LSD

(59:21):
was actually created for mentalhealth. And it's like a onetime
use.
It's designed to be like aonetime use product, where you
use it once and, like, you neverhave to you never have to use it
again. He talks about that onthe show, but I I think that
that's a really big thing to usis, like, what are some ways
that we could help veterans gettreatment? So we we we certainly
use our platform as a dialogueto get people to to think and

(59:44):
talk about these things. Andturns out, I mean, you know,
there's a lot more peopletalking about them than you
would think, which is good. Andthen, you know, hopefully,
within the even within themilitary, it seems that the the
the conversation of psychedelicsis a lot less taboo.
But they have a stigma. Right?They have a stigma that, you
know, that's what the hippiesdid in the

Sam Alaimo (01:00:02):
old days

Mark McGrath (01:00:02):
or that's what people that burned their draft
cards

That's going away real quick. That that stigma is
going away real quick.

Yeah. And I think that any veteran that, you know,
we all have compassion for otherveterans and we see what people
have gone through, you you know,we've all seen it to some level.
Something could help them do it.And something that's been around
for thousands of years, and theyonly maybe need to use it once
or whatever. Like, why wouldn'twe why wouldn't we explore those

Yeah.

Things rather than, and I won't go into the
details. I know someone jumpedoff the Bay Bridge in Rhode
Island. And when they autopsiedhim, you know, he had all the,
quote, unquote, drugs to helphim with, you know, depression
and whatever, like, all thosepsychoactive and psycho
psychotropic pharmaceuticals.And you wonder, like, what if he
had gone on a trip? You know, ifhe would that have helped him?
Would that have cleared out, youknow, the the the things in his

(01:00:49):
head that were, you know,distracting him and and and and
keeping him disconnected fromreality? And it's really it's
it's boy's dude a little sketch.Like, you're trying to get
orientations realigned toreality, and I think that
psychedelics actually help withthat.

Yeah. Second one is where'd Moose come from?

So in eighth grade, my best friend, Joe
Wozniak, started calling meMoose, and it stuck. And, you
know, with the name McGrath,like Mark McGrath, that's, like,
an illiterate of Moose McGrathwasn't that big of a deal. And
then in the marine corps,everybody just it didn't really
pick up in college, oddlyenough. Like, nobody really
called me Moose in college, butin the marine corps, like, day
one, like,

how does that Moose. I need to find out. Like, what
is their you don't look like a

Six three? Like, I don't know. A lot a lot of
officers aren't Paul. I, youknow, I I was usually not not
Paul was the tallest guy, but Iwas the tallest officer in my
battery, so I don't know. Theytried to do Sugar Ray.
That would people would trybecause the I'm

so much better.

Yeah. Well, the leaders leader of Sugar Ray is
Mark McGrath. Right? So MarkMcGrath, Mark McGrath. And that
would last about a day becausesomebody would say, sugar oh,
you mean moose over there?

It's too flattering as well. The nickname has to not
be flattering.

Yeah. It's no fun. Yeah. Yeah. You don't wanna be,
yeah, you don't wanna be acelebrity.
You have a celebrity nickname.Yeah.

How do you prime yourself for the day? One, two,
three things you have. Is therea ritual in the morning?

04:15 wake up. Jesus. I don't know why I can't
stop it either. Like, it's just,like, you can't not not do it.
How

long do you go to bed?

Ten.

That's impressive. That's impressive. Yeah. So
04:15 wake up. Is that when youhit the pool?

Pool opens at five.

What are you doing between then?

Reading. I try to read. So daily stoic. I do the
daily stoic. I like that withwith Ryan Holiday.
Very good book. And it's easybecause you flip through the
thing. I also like to read inthe mornings. I read and I
listen to two types of books.One is Steven Pressfield's
nonfiction books.
So the war of art, turning pro,the authentic swing, you can

(01:02:51):
read them in two hours. And whenyou listen to them at two times
speed, you can get it all in anhour. And sometimes go into the
pool or whatever just to havethat on another one I love is
Endurance, like, about theShackleton expedition by, Alfred
Lansing.

Still haven't read that. I gotta buy it.

Yeah. You don't complain about cold after you
read that you read that bookand, you know, spoiler alert,
you know, it's a historicalthing, but everybody survived.
And you just can't imagine thatpeople survived that thing. But
and then when you get to thepool, it doesn't matter how many
times you go in, you know, it'slike surf torture. Right?

Yeah.

You know it's gonna be cold. Yeah. You know
it's gonna suck for, like, Idon't know, a time, and then
it's not gonna suck anymore.

Especially when it's cold in Manhattan, and you're
going into the gym and it's coldand the water's cold, and the
last thing you wanna do is jumpin.

No. So my daughter's a swimmer in college.
She's a division one swimmer.And she was asked by a 11 year
old, is it hard to get into thepool? Like, you know, do you all
she goes, I've been swimmingsince I was, you know, half your
age, and every time I get intothe pool, you gotta tell you
gotta go through that.
I know it's gonna be cold. Iknow it's gonna suck, and you
just you just do it.

What's your swim routine like? What's your
workout? Swim? Just endurance.Just

go Just

get it.

Just get it done. When I'm primed, I could
generally do about 3,200 metersin an hour.

How many days a week can you do this? Five. Five days
a week. You just swim for anhour.

Ideal. Yeah. Do you lift at all? Yeah. I like to
do barbells.
I like to do, the startingstrength program if you're
familiar with Sets of five.Right? Start well, starting
strength is like like squat,deadlift, standing overhead
Bench. Bench, and a powercleans. And I find that that's a
my son did that as well.
Both both of my boys did that.And one of my boys is a senior

(01:04:34):
in high school, and he's a he'sa d one swim prospect as well. I
like the I like the simplicityof starting strength. There's
actually an article on startingstrength on their web page about
about the oodle loop, and it'sone of those things I wish I
would have known when I wasyounger. Like, I wish I would
have known about startingstrength while I was in high
school or even in the even inthe marines.
I think a lot of the the PT thatwe did, you know, you're you're

(01:04:55):
physically paying for it now.Yep. And I think with some
refinement, like like a barbellprogram that promotes, like,
more, like, salatophagy,anything like that, I think
would have been beneficial. Theother thing too, like, you know,
who knew back in, like, '98, noone talking about, like,
nutrition. Yep.
Nobody was talking about nonenone none of that stuff.

And really the war on terror that, like, there
became a a cult of fitness.That's when, like, functional
fitness and CrossFit, that'swhen these things started to
blow up.

Yeah. Yeah. We were fit. It was just different.
It was just, like

Running in different and like yeah.

Quit quit bitching. You know? Just go out
and run and

yeah.

But, you know, you surely run somebody. That's
that's all BS. Like, who toldyou that? You know?

What about after the swim? Anything else after that?
Or is that the morning?

You gotta have the protein. You gotta you gotta
replenish. I I do like to fast,though. So sometimes, like, I'll
I'll swim, and I'll I'll let letit keep burning until, like,
noon.

Nice.

So and just have, you know, like, I'd be drinking,
you know, like, the the blackcoffee Yeah. Which is also
something I I learned late inlife. I wish I would have known
more about fasting back in well,we had, like, de facto fasting.
Right? And, you know, we've beenon ops, and, like, they don't,
you know, you don't eat.
Like, you just you don't eat, soyou just tell yourself, well, I
don't need food.

It's the ancient things. Fasting, the
psychedelics, the oder loop.

Yeah. Right?

It's all the old ways. What about books, Diva? A
couple books that have changedyour life.

The Art of Contrary Thinking by Humphrey B.
Neil. It was recommended to meby a cabbie in February when I
was home visiting beforedeployment. And a guy asked me,
like, what do you wanna do whenyou gather marines? I said, oh,
I wanna go to law school, but Iwas a history major.
I don't wanna work in a museumor be a teacher. And, says, ah,

(01:06:31):
you should go work on WallStreet. Wall Street's run by
liberal arts people. I'm like,BS. He's like, no, man.
You gotta get the book The Artof Contrary Thinking. So I got
this book, and that's actuallythe second version. The first
one I had was so tattered andand and and marked up. It was
actually the first ever thing Ibought on Amazon. It's a famous
old Wall Street tome, and itbasically says that when you

(01:06:52):
think like everyone else, you'relikely to be wrong.
And when everybody thinks alike,everyone's likely to be wrong,
and you have to train your mindto think against the crowd and
think against the herd. And for,you know, marines and seals,
it's like you're gonna read thisand be like, yeah. That's the
life I chose. And, like, now Iunderstand it better about
avoiding crowdthink. Yeah.
I mentioned Endurance by AlfredLansing. I love that book. Oh,

(01:07:15):
and then, you know, Science,Strategy, and War, you know, the
the Boyd book I was showing you.I mean, I take it with me
literally everywhere. How do youpronounce

the author's name again?

Ozinga. Yeah. Franz Ozinga. Franz Ozinga.
Yeah.

Science, strategy, and war.

Yeah. He's a retired air force officer, from
the Dutch air force. Yeah. I Imean, it's great. I mean, this
is like if I was gonna say, getthe Boyd textbook Yeah.
And we're it's this, and we'regonna riff off of this. I've had
it since the first publishing.

It looks like it's been right about 79 times.

Yeah. Thousands. And it's just it literally, like
I said, goes with me andeverywhere. So Certain to Win by
Chet Richards is another greatone. And Chet was a collaborator
of Boyd, and he's been a gueston our show.
His book, Certain Win, is likehow to apply Boyd specifically
to business. It's got more of amaneuver warfare type flavor to
it, whereas, say, that book ismore of the comprehensive, like,

(01:08:03):
thriving and complexity, andthat's that's the one that I
would recommend. You can't comein and teach a class on OODA and
then leave and, like, everybodyknows it. You know? His minimum
that he would request was sixhours.

Oh, geez.

I I need six hours. We need to talk about
these things. People say we gotfifteen minutes. I'm like, I'm
gonna distill an you know, a sixto thirty six hour brief in
fifteen minutes, and I'll do mybest. And, hopefully, you give
people enough of a taste.
And if they don't get it, thentheir competitors might. And if
their competitors do, the peoplethat wouldn't give it the the
time of day, they're they're ina lot of trouble.

I love it.

Yeah. And that and it's ultimately we say it all
the time. And you and you see mewrite this on the on the on the
substack. Do this before yourcompetitors do. If your
competitors are learning thesethings and you're not, you're
gonna get hosed.
It's it's imminent. You you canyou can look at it as an overlay
and slap it on and say, they aregoing to lose at some point

(01:08:57):
because they're unable toreorient. They're unable to
constantly change theirenvironment. They're too
comfortable. They're vulnerable.
They're vulnerable to threats.And once what we try to do is
try to build an in internalcomponent in an organization so
that they can see these thingsthemselves. They don't need to
rely on us as a crutch. Youknow? We can kinda come in like
an embedded liaison and thenleave.
Yeah. We don't wanna be like abig box consulting that you just

(01:09:19):
keep, you know, constantlybuying, you know, boilerplates
and templates from. But, yeah,that's what you ultimately, you
know, you you teach people. Andthey have to do the work. You
know?
Like, if they don't do the work,you know, and their competitors
are, it's it's gonna be an uglysituation for them at some
point.

How about movies?

The movie Lebowski. Number one. Yeah. And
I walked in here to the lobby,and I saw the mirror that I have
the exact mirror in my office.You know, are you a Lebowski
achiever?
Of course, Fullmetal jacket.

Oh, yeah.

That was what I was saying after the Big
Lebowski. And then, like, numberthree is harder to pin down. I
mean, of course, Top Gun wasvery was very influential on me.

Classic.

You know, my father raised me on John Wayne
movies, the Milk and the Stars.Seen one.

I have to Oh, really? Yeah.

Yeah. Sanzu Iwo Jima, Green Berets, all those
and even, like, the westerns.You know, I watch a lot of
movies with my boys. So aboutone boy's 19. I was 18.
So, you know, Big LebowskiAnimal House, those those sorts
of things.

Alright. We'll wrap it up there. How can people
follow you and your work in yourcompany?

Yeah. So to go our website is, aglx.com, alpha golf
Lima x-ray Com. The Substack isthe world of reorientation, but
I just changed the domain. So ifyou type in the
Whirl.Substack.com, w h I r l,you can it goes right to it. And
then our podcast is No Way Out,and you can access the podcast
either from hlx.com or The Whirland, The Whirl Brewery

(01:10:43):
orientation.
And it's also available throughSpotify, iTunes, and we're on
YouTube as well.

Alright. Anything I missed, Sam, you wanna add?

No. We'll have to have you on the show sometime to
talk about the things thatyou're up to. Appreciate it,
brother. Thank you. Yeah.
Thanks for having me, Sam.

That's it for this episode. If you wanna check out
more from the podcast, head to0eyes.com/nobelle, where you can
see show notes, read more aboutour guests, and suggest guests
or topics of your own. Untilnext time, stay in the fight.
Don't ring the bell.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Scanning Your Environment for Mismatches

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

All Episodes

Scanning Your Environment for Mismatches

On Purpose with Jay Shetty