The Psychology of Combat and Courage

Hosts Sam Alaimo and Rob Huberty chat with Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman about his extraordinary journey from working on dangerous oil rigs in Nebraska to becoming a military psychologist, bestselling author, and global trainer for law enforcement and military forces. Hear how he turned military service and a passion for understanding combat psychology into a life dedicated to preparing others for the fight.

Episode Transcript

Sam Alaimo (00:03):
This is the No Bell podcast where we talk about how
to optimize your technology,life, and mind. We're joined by
special operations veterans,entrepreneurs, investors, and
others who have overcomedifficulty to make it to the top
of their craft by staying in thefight. Alright. Welcome to the

(00:24):
Nobel podcast hosted by myself,Sam Alaimo, and Rob Huberty, and
we are joined today byLieutenant Colonel Dave
Grossman. Sir, welcome to theNobel podcast.

Dave Grossman (00:33):
Thanks, Sam. Thanks, Rob. And it's just Dave,
and I wanted to be on board. Youguys are doing some amazing
things that I maybe hope to beable to address during the day
and, during this time frame.It's it's good to see what
you're doing.
It's good to be part of it.Thank you.

Sam Alaimo (00:46):
Appreciate it. Let's start from the beginning as you
as we usually do. Where did yougrow up? Well, you know, my dad
was

Dave Grossman (00:52):
a cop, then he ended up moving to the nuke
security program. Still thoughtof himself just no cop. And we
moved like every 18 months,where North Dakota, South
Dakota, Montana, Wyoming,Nebraska, everywhere they had
those nukes. Minuteman 1,Minuteman 2, Minuteman that's
where we lived. And then I wasin the panhandle of Nebraska.
It was 1974, January, February,March. I basically dropped out

(01:16):
of high school. I had I had itcompleted. I got my degree, but
I, I worked on a Wildcat oil rigin January, February, March in
the Panhandle, Nebraska. Thesingle most dangerous thing I've
ever done.
12 hour shifts, 7 7 days a week,12 hour shifts. Those guys
couldn't spell OSHA, let alonecomply. 2, 2, if just just

(01:37):
what's near death incidents whenthings broke, and things were
coming at me, and leap out ofthe way. Grew up in the martial
arts, but that's my background.And then they found out I lied
about my age, and it reallyfreaked out.
And and when I turned 18, and inthe summer of 1974, I enlisted
in 82nd Airborne Division,infinitely safer than being on a
Wildcat oil rig. And and therest is history. I've had 24

(02:00):
years in the military, made e 5sergeant, went to OCS, army,
just a basic knuckle draggerinfantry ranger type guy, and,
and the army sent me to gradschool en route to teach at West
Point, and got my psych degree,and everything kind of flowed
from that. My first book, andthen follow on book, and, you
know, that's that's the shortversion of this story. It's been

(02:21):
a great ride.
I retired over 26 years ago.I've been on the road a couple
of days a year. I'm the onlyperson ever to be state
certified in all 50 states totrain law enforcement that
believe every federal agency, acouple of 100 days a year on the
road, and 68 years old, and, myprayer I'll do it for another 20
years. We'll talk about why, whywe stay in the fight, and why we

(02:42):
wanna stay in the game.

Sam Alaimo (02:43):
Before we get there, I'm curious because the timing
is interesting. That was rightat the tail end or at the end of
the Vietnam War. Did you sinceyou were a kid, I mean, your
childhood was through theVietnam War. You probably saw
everything that was happening inAmerica with regard to the war,
the treatment of the soldiers.Why did you still wanna go in?

Dave Grossman (03:00):
Yeah. It was a crazy time. We had what was
called the Volar army, and itwas the first all volunteer
army. The draft was shut down,and the druggies ran the
barracks. If you didn't wanna dodrugs, you had to fight.
And I grew up with a martialarts. I didn't mind fighting,
but was a pain in the ass, andit was it was a crazy time. But
that's all I ever wanted to do,was was serve. I remember at 1st

(03:23):
grade, didn't go tokindergarten. 1st grade, I get
the, the teacher did anicebreaker.
What do you give me when I growup? I said, I'm gonna be a
soldier. And that's all everyonewanted to do. And then I I we're
we're the Vietnam vets allaround us, and we wanted to know
what combat was gonna be like.You know, we're ready to punch
out, you know, we're just beforethe ranger bats have been stood
up, so it was 80 seconds you hadto punch out first anywhere,

(03:46):
anywhere.
And and we had Vietnam vets allaround us. We wanted to know
what combat was gonna be like,and they wouldn't say. It's like
this taboo topic. And and andwhat I figured out, if if
somebody asks you about your sexlife, hey, you know, how's the
sex life? What position?
How's it going on? But ifMasters and Johnson have
scholarly studies, I say, youmight tell them. So I went to

(04:06):
grad school, you know, fastforward, captain Grossman,
ranger infantry, head of theWest Point. And I I asked, and
and I got the answer. And and itturned in my first book, On
Killing.
On Killing is a half a millioncopies sold in English,
translated into into 8languages. Google Scholar,
scholar. Google.com. Look up anypublished work, See how many

(04:27):
times been cited by other work.That's not the nature of
scholarship.
This book's been cited over3,600 times in scholarly works,
translated in multiplelanguages, and and and if you
ask people the World War 2 vetsby the 100, Vietnam all those
World War 2 vets are gone now.This is the 19 eighties. Vietnam

(04:47):
vets by the 100, so many of themare gone now. And I would
present to the reunions, conductinterviews and surveys, and and
and they would tell me aboutwhat it was like. And I wrote my
first book on killing, and Ithought, you know, that's that's
the heart of what's in combat.
But then I retired and, and likeyou said, it's it's it it was
crazy times. Reagan becamepresident, and it pivoted on a

(05:09):
dime. We had the urinalysisprogram with the expeditious
discharge program. The singlemost amazing thing I've ever
seen in my life is how thepresident would come in and turn
things around on a dime, fromthe goofy stuff we were doing.
It was insane.
But it turned it around, and andso I I retired in December of
97, and I was trained lawenforcement. And when the when

(05:34):
911 happened, nobody had anycombat experience except law
enforcement. The cops are in thefight every day. And and my
presentation completely evolved.You know, the war began, I
thought who the hell am Ibetraying these Green Beret and
these SEALs with all thiscombat?
And I found out the moreexperience I have, the more the
value of what you got to give.And my son just retired, air

(05:57):
force combat controller, 9combat tours, 3 bronze stars. My
son just retired. This is thebook I wrote. This is the what
what's really at the heart ofthe matter.
You peel away the layers of theonion on combat. Both these
books, on combat, on killing,marine corps, commandants
required reading list. This isthe book I wrote for my son
going into the fight. And, mygrandson's in Kuwait right now.

(06:19):
Grandson in the army right now.
We're deployed to Kuwait. Andthis is the book, that he read
before he enlisted it and anddrove on. I wanted to make a
difference. I wanted tocontribute. It's what I wanted
to do.
And we've really been able to dothat. Now here's cool part. This
book translated a bunch oflanguages. It was translated in
Ukrainian last year. And inJanuary of this year, 24, it

(06:41):
received the book of the yearaward.
In May June, they brought me outto Ukraine. They're the
Ukrainian government brought meout of May June. I'm training
Ukrainian troops, across thenation. I've lived to Kyiv, 2 or
3 presentations a day. You know,if they bring too many people
together, it becomes a target.
There were never had more than,50, maximum 100 people together.

(07:04):
I'm training them and andworking across here, but this is
the book that they locked onto,and the information about
combat, slow motion time, tunnelvision, auditor exclusion,
memory gaps, memory distortions.These are the things at the
core. And I wrote the book onhunting, just recently came out,
and I just had this curiosity.Sex has been done to death.

(07:26):
Anything I wanna know about sexhas been written about. But
combat, like, you don't hear theshots. How could we have had 500
years of gunpowder combat, notlet people know that shots get
beaten? Now here's the coolpart. Hunters all experienced
that.
He asked a hunter, hey, youknow, you pull the trigger, do
you hear the sound? Do you hearthe sound? No. Have you ever
talked to him about No. Andwe're all in our little silo.

(07:48):
Nobody's talking about thesecrazy things that are happening.
The auditor how good we have had500 years of gunpowder hunting
and gunpowder combat? A lot ofpeople know the simplest little
stinking thing like auditoryexclusion. So those were woven
into my book on combat, and andthat's kind of the, again, the
the short story on the ride, butall began by wanting to know

(08:09):
what combat was like, and andand enlisting, and wanting to be
in combat, wanting to do combat.And the truth is, my worst cold
war.
Not not much happened to me, butI've had the honor to interview
more people who have been incombat than anybody in human
history. All the interviews Idid before I I retired to write
my book on on killing, and thenout on the road a couple hundred

(08:30):
days a year, and every day,somebody comes up and says, this
is what it was like for me. Thishappened. This happened. That
didn't happen.
And And the ones that are alittle different have a lot to
teach us. So I mean, 24 years inthe army, 26 years doing this,
and it's my prayer. I keep doingit for another another 20 years.
And once again, there's the theshort version of of a long and

(08:50):
weary tale of of what Grossmanwas trying to do and where we
ended up.

Sam Alaimo (08:53):
I read On Killing the first time, I think 4 years
ago on a flight to Hawaii fromPhiladelphia. Yeah. So from the
moment we took off inPhiladelphia to LA to Hawaii, I
read the entire thing. Iprobably took like 20 pages of
notes. It it got my brainstimulated.
Maybe for those who who have notread your book yet, I'd
recommend they do. Can you givekind of the overarching premise

(09:15):
and Sure. You tied in there atthe beginning with the Vietnam
vets not not wanting to talkabout it. So anchor the book and
kind of give up the overarchingsummary.

Dave Grossman (09:22):
Well, you know, the heart of the matter is in
World War 2, we found out mostof our troops wouldn't pull the
trigger. And SLA Marshall, didthese interviews, and and
everybody at the end of end ofWorld War 2, we were 100% combat
veterans. And Marshall said,hey, look, this is what's
happening, and and we knew it,and everybody accepted it, and

(09:42):
they dealt with it. And theproblem was it was a training
flaw. Right now, now, cruisersweapons almost always fired.
Key weapon like a BAR or aflamethrower, everybody knew it
was shooting, it almost alwaysfired. If there's a leader
standing over your shoulderdemanding it would fire, but
left to their own devices, about15 to 20 percent of the

(10:04):
individual riflemen would pullthe trigger. And at the end of
World War 2, we knew it wastrue. There was no denying it.
It's come under attack in recentyears, but it it all fits, and
we fix it.
If you've been in the US armedforce, the problem was we taught
people to shoot bullseyetargets. We've got no known case
any bullseyes ever attack in ourtroops. You've been in the US
army since the Korean War, younever once shot a bullseye. Man

(10:27):
shaped silhouette pops in yourfield. If you hit the target,
target drops.
Stimulus response, stimulusresponse, like a pilot in a
flight simulator, like a kid ina fire drill. Modern training
makes killing a conditionedresponse. So here's the deal. If
every living creature slams headon into this resistance of
killing your own kind, you know,when we talk about murder, oh,

(10:49):
look at that terrible crime thatproves that mankind's a killer.
Well, no.
We're a nation of a third of a1000000000 people. That one
terrible crime you heard about,1 in a third of a 1000000000.
Now if if you very, veryroughly, in America, a 3rd of a
1000000000 people, we have 1murder per day per state.
Roughly roughly 50 murders aday. I you explain to me the

(11:14):
99.999999.
Who didn't kill anybody today?Divorce, infidelity, layoff,
traffic accidents. It'll lightdown a provocation. Less than 1
in a 1000 will even try to takea life. Explain that.
So there's this whole array ofphysiological, psychological
factors that can enable andrestrain killing. And we know

(11:34):
how to turn it on, and we knowthat the video games can be
doing something very similar tokids. Now here's the thing, if
just 1 in a 1000000 kill, 1 in a1000000 in any given day, the
murder rate has gone from 50 toto 320. Just 1 in a 1000000. And
and you these little factorsthat can move it over, and we've

(11:58):
seen violence explode at levelsnever seen before.
And that's why I'm such a bigfan of of programs like you
guys, and your zero odds, andyour your your your dynamic. Let
let me give an angle on this,the pivot on on these crime data
that I think is so important.1st, when when we talk about on
killing, we we talked about howtoxic it is. Every living
creature has a resistancekilling their own kind. Animals

(12:23):
with antlers and horns, they'rehead to head in most harmless
fashion.
Any other species that go to theside, they gut their gore.
Piranhas sink their teethanything that hits water except
another piranha. They fight eachother flicks at their tails.
Rattled snakes will sink theirfangs in anything except another
rattlesnake, and they wrestleeach other. So when we become
frightened, when we becomeangry, the forebrain shuts down,

(12:45):
the midbrain takes over, andthis resistance kicks in.
We've all been enraged. We'vebeen we've been red with rage.
We've been overwhelmed withanger. Well, why don't you grab
a steak knife and cut thatthroat? Why don't you just stab
them and kill them?
We we we bring that resistance,and it's there and it's real.
But here's here's the mostimportant thing. There's so many
ways. Interpersonal humanaggression is the single most

(13:07):
psychologically toxic thinganybody will ever face. Now
don't cop a pity party here, butthe DSM, the Bible of
psychiatrists, psychology sayswhenever the cause of your
trauma is human in nature, thedegree of trauma is used to more
severe and long lasting.
So I tell people, you tell me,you tell me, is there a
difference between these twoscenarios? Scenario 1, tornado

(13:29):
hits the house while you'regone, put your family in the
hospital. How do you feel aboutthem? Thank God they're alive.
Scenario 2, Criminals break outin the house while you're gone.
It systematically beat family inthe hospital. Say, how do you
feel? Any different? There's allthe difference in the world.
One's a one's a random act of ofnature.
The other's an intentionalmalignant act by human beings.

(13:50):
And so when we talk aboutviolent crime exploding, we we
got to understand that thisinterpersonal human aggression
is so toxic, so destructive toour civilization and to our way
of life, And in recent years,it's completely come unglued. So
that's kind of killing on combatin a nutshell. But let me just
show you guys that I reallythink this is, important stuff

(14:10):
for y'all. Now medicaltechnology is holding down the
murder bay.
Cool. You get it. Docs aresaving ever more lives every
day. Tourniquets alone have cutthe murder rate in half in just
the last decade. Look look, if20 to 30 people a day slap on a
tourniquet, save a crimevictim's life, we cut the
murderer in half.

(14:32):
Now I teach our nation's largestfire and EMS service several
times a year for over a decade.I said, Dave, we guarantee you,
in our city alone, 20 to 30times a day, we slap on a
tourniquet and save a crime inour city alone. So you gotta
understand 911 systems, medevac,the trauma. So between the 19

(14:53):
one good solid data point, UMassHarvard study, between the 19
sixties and the 19 nineties,medical technology cut the
murder rate to a 3rd or aquarter would otherwise be. That
is compare the murders in the inthe nineties with the sixties.
You gotta take the murders inthe nineties and multiply by a

(15:13):
factor of 3 or 4. And the leapsand bounds of life saving
technology. And then this, Iread so mad that somebody said,
your grandpa made 25¢ an hour.This job pays $25 an hour. You
make a 100 times more money thanyour grandpa.
That's your BS meter going off.We all understand about
inflation, we all understand youcan't compare money, but we

(15:35):
compare the murder rate, it'sthe same lie. And we're being
lied to year after year. And Iwas I was at the the big FBI
center recently where they dothis data, and they're kind of
primed for recalculating this,but this is this is like
borderline Nobel Prize types ofnot your Nobel, but the real
Nobel thing, borderline NobelPrize, to say, let's get an

(15:56):
accurate assessment of what'sreally happening. I've been to
the White House twice, once aspart of the president's
roundtable, another to brief thevice president.
I told the vice president, justlike we have inflation adjusted
dollars, we need medicallyadjusted murders. And when we do
that, it will absolutelytransform the way we see the
situation. The vice presidentsaid, what about aggravated

(16:17):
assault rate? I said, sir,that's a good measure. And so
you start holding people's feetto the fire, and then it
changes.
We we make egg assault say, whatdo you want it to say? Where do
you draw that magic line? It'slike great inflation in the
school. Oh, yeah. Oh, you wantegg you want you you want egg
assault?
Go down. We'll bring it down.Poof. But dad is dead. Murder is

(16:37):
good data.
It's about the only good soliddata we have. Everything else is
judgment call.

Rob Huberty (16:41):
Are you suggesting that something has changed in
our society because it seems tosay that, you know, either gun
rates have gone down even thoughwe see it in the news, although
this life saving equipmentsuggests that's actually
increased. Is that is that whatyou're suggesting?

Dave Grossman (16:55):
Let me give you some data here. It really is
important. This is the number ofmurders in America. It's just
raw data. Now here's, 2,006, wehad 17,000 murders.
Here we are in 2,008, we had16,000. 2,009, 15,000. 2010,

(17:16):
14,000. 1000, 14,000. But thenin 2015, 2016, it exploded.
Now we've seen jumps like thatin the past, but when you allow
for medical technology, who'dnever do anything remotely like
this. Now the FBI guys, 15, 16,what was happening, they call it
the Ferguson effect. That crazymessage that the criminals are

(17:40):
the good guys, and the cops arethe bad guys. This idea that
that that that society breaksinto the oppressor and the
oppressed, and the cops are theoppressors, and the criminals
are the oppressed, and the mediacoverage of the Ferguson
episode, that that that drumbeatthat says that criminals are the
good guys. But then we had theGeorge Floyd effect, and we

(18:04):
haven't seen anything remotelylike it.
So zoom out a little bit. Again,look at the data here. Now this
is New York Times. New YorkTimes says there is no precedent
for what happened in 2020. Sowhy did they bury it in the
Sunday supplement?
Never mention any because itpoints the finger right back at
them. Now this is a year overyear increase decrease in

(18:26):
murders. 19 sixties. Up thismuch, this so far. Bloop bloop
bloop.
They all stack up. Down a year.Up up down a couple years.
Hopefully, a lot of medicaltechnology ain't down that much
at all. Up, up, up.
Look at the 19 nineties. Down,down, down, down, down, but in
the 19 nineties we doubled ourprison population, and when you
allow for medical technology, itain't down at all. This ain't up

(18:46):
as much. Now look at those fewyears. There is the Ferguson
effect, and there's 2020.
That's the George Floyd effect.It began in May of 2020. The
most horrendous year over yearincrease in murders we have ever
seen in the history of ournation. Here's another Can

Sam Alaimo (19:03):
you can you break down the logic a little bit? So
if if it is Ferguson, if it isthe the shooting in 2020 Yeah.
What is causing the increase inmurders? People thinking they
can get away with murder?

Dave Grossman (19:13):
Yeah. It's the media coverage saying the
killer's a good guy, and and andthe criminals are the good guys.
But look look how it does thewhole George Floyd thing. This
George Floyd, you know, the thecops are evil, and they're
killing innocent people. Yeah.
They they did something stupid.They're making a mistake, But
the effect here's here's kind ofa Pew Research COVID. Now the

(19:33):
Pew there's the 19 sixties thatwe talked about. Right? Up, up,
up, down, down, down, down.
And here's the 19 nineties. Thisis per capita. There's 911. 911
up this much, down the nextyear. Right?
And there's 2020. And it did notgo down the next year. It went
up another 4%. What we got is wegot all time record number of

(19:53):
cops murdered in the line ofduty. All time last year, 2023,
was the all time record numbercops shot in the line of duty.
Now here's kind of a headlinenews. Fraternal order of police.
300, and because of body armor,because of technology, we didn't
have a record dead, but we havenever seen this many cops shot.

(20:14):
So here's what's happening. Itrain conversation wide.
They said, we know how to not beassassinated. We know how to not
be massacred. We we don't go tothat part of town no more, and
that part of town no longer hasjustice, and that part of town
no longer reports crime. So letme show you another thing. Now
the the media says, oh, yeah.
Crime is down. Bullshit. It'snot down. It's exploding like
nothing we ever see, and theywon't even talk about it because

(20:35):
it points a finger back at them.And what this means is we need
you.
We need 0 eyes. We need smartpeople like you helping us.
Throw technology at themproblem. Throw money we're we're
a rich nation. When things gowrong, we throw money at it.
And when the public begins tounderstand just how thinking bad
it is, Let's start throwingmoney at this problem. So let me

(20:56):
show you another one now. Wehave 2 crime reports out there.
1 is Uniform Crime UCR, wherecops report to the FBI. And cops
aren't reporting crime becausethey don't get that part of
town.
And those guys are not reported.Murders get reported. But but
the other crime report is thecrime victimization survey.
Every year, we phone thousandsof people, and we ask, were you

(21:20):
a victim of assault? Were you avictim of rape?
So here's here's these 2. Now,no, we don't have the the 24
date 23 date again. It's thatfar behind, but here's the
change from 2021 to 2022. Nowthe the the the the cops say,
uniform crime report, crimedown, total crime down 2%,
survey says up 75%. Homicide,funny thing, decade after

(21:43):
decade, we call thousands ofpeople, never once, so we say,
yep, I was victim homicide.
Never once. Homicide victims,they can't speak for themselves.
But rape, oh, down 6%. Surveysays, up 58%. Robbery, oh, it's
up 1%.
Survey says, it's up 47%. Herewe go to ag assault now. Ag
assault, as long as you don'thold people's feet to the fire,

(22:03):
as long as you don't holdaccountable, ag assault's a good
measure. Hey, cops. Alright.
Ag assault's down 2%. Surveysays up a 104%. Folks, it's out
of control. We've never seenthings remotely like this, and
and the public doesn't know it.And when they know it, they'll
start throwing money at thisproduct.
Then what do we got? We gotthings like here's a here's a

(22:24):
cop in the middle of all ofthis. Yeah. This is the guy at
the Parkland School massacre.That's not a shooting.
Shooting is an Olympic sport.Shooting is our constant push to
protect your right. Every time acriminal acts called the
shooting, it should piss youoff. This is a cop on duty at
the Parkland School Massacre. Hedidn't go in.
Now he was acquitted, but hebecame a national villain. We we

(22:45):
don't need warriors, see. Weneed we need protectors. We need
we need guardians, see. We don'tneed that warrior spirit, and
they come where they ask for it.
But here's here's 2 otherpeople. This is the police chief
and the SRO at Uvalde, UvaldeSchool massacre. They didn't go
in, and they're both facing overa dozen felony charges because

(23:05):
they didn't go in. They weretold, we we don't want warriors.
We want guardians.
We want protectors, and and yougotta find a balance in there.
There's room for the warrior.There's room for the Navy Seal.
There's room for you. You gottateach us.
But at the same time, there'sgotta be balance. Let me give
you a layout on the whole thing.Heather McDonald, smart lady,
wrote the book War on Cops.That's what it is, guys. It's a

(23:26):
flat out war on cops.
Heather Heather doesn't have thethe the George Floyd effect, the
mini Minneapolis effect. She'llupdate her book. Best book out
there right now is a book calledBlue Lies, the the the war on
justice, conspiracy to weakenAmerica's cops. I wrote the
foreword to it. It's got all thefootnotes, all the in notes to

(23:46):
understand what the hell isgoing on.
It's a war on cops. It's a war,on on justice. It is a lie
campaign. This is the cops areevil, and the criminals are the
good guys, and the criminalsembrace that. And what we see is
crime exploding, and it's noteven being reported in many
cases because the cops don'teven go there anymore.
There's no go zones. Well, theydon't even go and force a law

(24:08):
because they're gonna getassassinated, murdered,
executed. It's happening on thestreets and people don't even
know it.

Sam Alaimo (24:13):
When we initially talked, you you you brought up
the increasing violence inAmerica. And I I guess, 2
questions. Number 1 is, have youdone back the envelope math on
what it might be without theadvancements in medical
technology? And then number 2,you said you had some
recommendations on how peoplecan approach it, can deal with
the excess violence. So if youcan answer both those questions,

(24:34):
that'd be great.

Dave Grossman (24:35):
The the thing to understand is it's
multifactorial, and it'sworldwide. During my
presentations, I show the dataaround the planet. It's not just
America. Now the Minneapoliseffect, the George Floyd effect
was America and Canada. Wedidn't see that much in Europe.
It was America and Canada. Everybump in violent crime America
has Canadians do the same thing.I've been doing this for for

(24:58):
tracking crime data for over 30years. Canada, God bless them,
is just trapped the same thingus. And and and it's worldwide.
Mexico is out of control. Fileshas exploded. Mexico has has a
higher murder rate than thanIraq and Afghanistan put
together. I would rather take myfamily on vacation to Iraq than
Mexico, and this is new. This isnew.

(25:19):
Oh, it's all psychotropic drugs.Was that what's happening in
Mexico? Is is that what'shappening? Jamaica or any of
these other nations around theworld, the violence has
exploded. Is that the newfactor?
And Interpol, I quote theInterpol data, right up until 20
years ago when Interpol stoppedreporting the data because the
nation didn't want people toknow. It exploded, and we don't

(25:41):
know how bad it's been for thelast 20 years because they won't
tell us. It's classified dataaround the planet of of what
their violent crime rate is inall these nations. So here's
what's going on. 1 is turningthese killers into celebrities.
The the the media has turnedthese killers into celebrities.
I could tell you the names. Ishowed the picture of the
killers, and that would and andthat would be wrong. We

(26:01):
shouldn't we should nevermention that name. There was a
mosque massacre in New Zealand.
This guy live streamed himselfin 2 different mosques,
slaughtering people. The primeminister of New Zealand nailed
it. She said, this man did whathe did for notoriety, for fame,
but we will not give it to him.She said, New Zealand will never

(26:22):
save this man's name. NewZealand will never show this
man's face.
New Zealand will not even givehim his name. Boom. Somebody's
got it. Make them nothing. Makeokay.
The first week tells the nameshows the picture. Boom. Shut it
down. Turn in these killers, theone that we just had in Madison,
Wisconsin. This girl whomurdered 2 people in her school

(26:44):
and wounded others and thenkilled herself.
This girl was totally whackedout on the Columbine killers.
Listen to the same music, thesame band, just totally whacked
out. And they've been movies,turn these killers into
celebrities. In my class, I showthe Oxford Michigan School
killer. Yeah.
The last the last quote in hislittle journal, I want the world
to remember me. What's hismotivation? The Parkland Florida

(27:07):
School killer. He made hislittle manifesto, little
videotape. And you're gonna knowwho I am, and it's gonna be
great.
You're gonna know who I am. Andwhat did he say? Then he said,
I'm gonna commit a massacre. Hesaid, I'm gonna be the next
shooter. Shooting is an Olympicsport.
Shooting is a good thing. Wetake it's we take the most
horrible crimes, and we callthem shootings, and we're

(27:27):
trapped by our own language. Andand the shooters are the good
guys. They're not killers. I'm ashooter.
I don't gotta be famous. I'lltell you what's coming next. I
pray that I'm wrong. We're gonnasee daycare massacres. We're
gonna see school bus massacres.
The goal is is fame, so theygotta commit ever more evil
crimes to be in the news. Hey.Elementary school massacre, it's

(27:48):
been done 3 times. Now we gotanother one. You go to a
daycare, murder all the kids.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. You'll be on thefront page of every newspaper.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
I'll murder a school bus full ofkids? Oh, yeah. Yeah. You'll get
that'll do it. You'll be on thefront page.
Oh, no. Terrible new crime. Andthe media will turn them into
celebrities. And one of themajor reasons for this I I work

(28:09):
with a Secret Service agent,wrote the foreword to his book,
and he talks about how many ofthese killers are motivated by
fame, and the media feeds it tohim. And then we've got this
whole progress of of the ideathat the criminals are the good
guys.
Right up until the early 19sixties, Hollywood operated by a
code, and and the code said, weknow the stories we tell have an

(28:33):
impact on our society. I mean,come on. A 32nd commercial
modifies a behavior. How muchmore does that hours and hours
of stuff in between it? Theysaid, we know the stories we
tell of an impact, and we knowwe have a responsibility.
Tell stories with a positiveimpact. A lot of the code could
be said in 3 words. Crimedoesn't pay. Criminals must not

(28:55):
be depicted in a positivemanner. Law enforcement must not
be depicted in a negativemanner.
They knew a civilization couldnot survive if we tell our
children cops are evil andcriminals are good. And and they
knew they had this impact. Inthat early 19th, they threw it
away. So here's somethingimportant to understand. Defund
the police.

(29:17):
What sane, rational human beingwould believe, get rid of all
the cops? Empty the prisons.That's their agenda. Empty all
the prisons. Get rid of all thecops.
It'll be better. How couldsomebody believe that? Well,
here's the key. Right up untilyou're 6, 7, 8 years old, your
dreams and TV and movies andreality are all the same. Look,

(29:38):
you ever get dreams in real lifemixed up?
But my son's pushing 50 now. Myson asked my wife a while back,
hey, did I tell you that? Did Ijust dream it? She oh, you must
have dreamed it. I don't haveyou ever been there?
Well, for children, they cannottell the difference. It's all
real. So when they see somebodyon TV being murdered, it's real.
So maybe one of the most evilmovies ever made, Denzel

(30:00):
Washington, in training day. AndDenzel, the most beloved black
actor, plays a corrupt violentcop.
And they believe cops are evil.They've seen it. They were 2, 3
years old and they saw it.Denzel's a bad cop. They're all
bad.
They personally witnessed copscommit evil evil acts, and and
they believe it. And then thevideo games provide the killing

(30:22):
it's all these things cometogether. The movies that
provide that this this thissoundtrack that says the killer
is the good guy, the thecriminals, and the cops are the
bad guys. Record number copsshot the line of duty. Where the
hell did that come from?
This narrative. This this thisMarxist narrative. The world
divides into the oppressor andthe oppressed. And the oppressor

(30:45):
is always evil. Look at October7th in Israel.
The Palestine were oppressed.They do whatever they want. They
can rape. They murder. Theykill.
They're the good guys. They'rethe oppressed. The Israelis are
the oppressors, and they deservewhat they got. And so when cops
are murdered out there, they hadthat coming. They deserve it.
And we fed these movies at ayoung age with this crazy, you

(31:08):
know and again, think like adetective. Think like a
scientist. What is the newfactor? And see what they do is
they point at the guns. Oh, it'sthe guns.
It's the guns. It's evil guns.So I throw a picture of an m one
car being up there. 7,000,000 ofthese manufactured in World War
2. At the end of World War 2,they flooded the market.
Right up until 1968, any kid atany age could order m 1 carbine,

(31:34):
high capacity, similar to thatmilitary weapon, and the US mail
would deliver it to the house.Up until 1968, any kid to any
age or or went through the mail.Now we're we're doing a change
of that law. But there's notsome evil new gun out there. The
media knows they have this bloodon their hand, and they gotta
point their fingers.
So, oh, it's the guns. It's theevil cops. It's evil guns. Oh,
it's them. And and and this sickmessage that that has taken over

(31:59):
that their prison's full ofinnocent people, and we let them
all go to be better.
That cops are all evil. Denzallsare bad cop. They're all bad.
When we kill the cops and we getrid of the lawn, it'd be all
better. What would it really belike if they had their way?

Rob Huberty (32:11):
So one of the things it sounds like you're
saying that has changed istechnology, information
availability so that the factthat there's more movies that
have come out that have amessage that, you know, the
Internet and the exposure tothese things, and you it's
easier to become more notoriousin these these settings. The
fact that the news media is moreI mean, it's ever present.

(32:32):
Right? Like, you used to turn onthe news at night, and that was
it. Now you can look on yourphone at any given moment.
So there's one question that Ihave is basically, like, if you
if you'd use a different era ofAmerica, the 19 seventies, which
I have been told by lawenforcement and people was
actually more violent than 19seventies were. And I don't know
that I would it wasn't alivethen. I've been told that,

(32:53):
though. Yeah. And I think thatthere was a zeitgeist in that
point where movies started totell a darker story of cops.
Yep. Like, Popeye Doyle was nothe was a good guy, but, like,
the 19 seventies cops didn'twear white hats like cowboys
did. Right? Like, it wasn't GoodGuy. It was it was more nuanced,
and it and, you know, maybe the,you know, Popeye Doyle of Gene

(33:14):
Hackman in the seventies in theFrench Connection evolved to
Denzel Washington.
So some of the things that werethe same were, like, movies did
have this depiction. Right? Thatnot necessarily I Popeye Doyle
was still a hero, and that'sthat's a very like, Denzel
Washington was evil. So that notthe same thing. But there was an
exposure to that.
Were the 19 seventies moredangerous?

Dave Grossman (33:35):
Yeah. That's a big lie if you allow for medical
technology.

Rob Huberty (33:39):
Okay.

Dave Grossman (33:39):
even if they get to compare. But see, there's the
big lie. Oh, you know, the 19seventies, you know, go back to
that Pew report I showed you.Yeah. It's up, but it's still
below previous years.
If we allow for medicaltechnology, it's far far worse.
We need medically adjustedmurders. And we'll be able to
understand how bad it really is.And we'll start throwing money
at the problem. What we how wewin World War 2?

(34:00):
We threw money at it. It. Whatwe do during the Cold War, we
outspent the Russians. What wedo during the pandemic, we threw
1,000,000,000,000 of dollars atit. When the American public
begins to understand how bad itreally is, they're throwing
money at this problem.
You know, my On Killing came outin 1995, 3 years before
Columbine. And I said, we'regonna see a generation of

(34:23):
juvenile killers like nothingwe've ever seen before. There
has never in history been ajuvenile in a school commit a
mobile homicide, and now they'reeverywhere. What is the new
factor? And the Columbinekillers watched the movie
Natural Born Killers over 50times.
Prior to the 19 eighties, it wasnot possible to watch a movie 50

(34:46):
times. Yeah. Some of usremember, you know, the the the
big battle between Betamax andUHS, and and and but now you
couldn't see a movie unless itwas on TV, unless in at the
theater, you couldn't see it 50times. The Coliban Killers used
a video game and rehearsed theirmassacres, put themselves in the
god mode, and rehearsed killinginnocent people. These are some

(35:08):
of the new factors in theequation worldwide.

Sam Alaimo (35:12):
Zoom in on one thing you said that is my wheels are
turning on it. If you look at,like, the homicide rate in the
state of nature, like in huntergatherer days

Dave Grossman (35:20):
Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (35:21):
The estimation is men would kill other men at the
rate of 25%. So one out of every4 men on earth was killed by
another human being. When youaggregate men and women, it was
about 15% violent death rate.That is extraordinary.

Dave Grossman (35:35):
Where do

Sam Alaimo (35:35):
you get that from? Yeah. Azar got. Yeah. Lawrence
Keeley, war before civilization.
Yeah. They're going off theosteological archaeological
record. Yeah. Spear point,sorry, metal points embedded in,
backs, bone points embedded inspinal. So it's it's an
interesting number and it itkinda makes sense given what you
just said about someone betweenthe ages of 0 and 5 Yeah.

(35:57):
Who see violence on TV

Dave Grossman (35:59):
Right.

Sam Alaimo (36:00):
May begin to not have any sort of negative
response to violence in reality.

Dave Grossman (36:04):
Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (36:05):
And I always wondered how you could have a
hunter gatherer band whose solemission was to eradicate the
neighboring band, to to killeverybody they can.

Dave Grossman (36:12):
Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (36:13):
And it was because to them from the moment of
birth, that was normal. Yeah.That wasn't abnormal. Yes. So
what you're really talkingabout, I think, if I understand
your premise, is thatcivilization has done a really
good job of trying to temperthat that that violence that
we're so capable of throughlaws, through religion, through
tradition, through custom

Dave Grossman (36:30):
Through medical technology holding down.

Sam Alaimo (36:31):
And then the evolutionary curve ball Yeah. Is
movies and video games.

Dave Grossman (36:35):
Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (36:36):
Now it makes me wonder, like, the murder rate, I
think you said it was 1 in 1 ina 1,000,000, was it? Yeah. So,
like, 1 in a 1,000,000 Yeah.

Dave Grossman (36:42):
We've we've we've got 1 per city per day. So it's
50 200 you know, a third of a1000000000 people, we see
roughly 50 a day.

Sam Alaimo (36:51):
So compare it to 1 out of 4 human beings being
killed. Yeah. There's it can getso much worse is what I'm trying
to say.

Dave Grossman (36:58):
Yeah. Quite right. Quite right. And, sir,
Ed, you know, that really is agood point. I know about the
data of the murder rate now, Allof that other stuff.
You know, we wrotearchaeological I've written
archaeological papers,coauthored with archaeologists.
And and and I talked about it inon killing, that the actual
battle was a big shoving match.When one side just started to

(37:19):
run away, that's when all thekilling happened. And and it was
the the the chariots and thecavalry. You know, cav, the
force stirrups, they were verylimited in their ability to
protect energy.
And and the the early chariotsdidn't have a a a horse collar,
so they actually choked thehorse. And it's only good for,

(37:41):
like like, 3, 4, 500 yardsbefore the horse couldn't go any
further. But they had thismobility advantage. And they
were they when the one side ranaway now you throw your shield
away and run, you you can'tcatch him. He's running as fast
as you are, if not more so.
But the the cavalry and the andthe chariots, and from behind.
It's so easy to kill somebodyfrom behind when you don't have

(38:03):
to look in their eyes. Allthat's in on killing. And yet
throughout history, we we'veseen violence. And we we saw,
one it was a tragic event,archaeological event, in which a
bunch of people have beenburied.
They were primarily women andchildren, and they'd all been
killed the same way, with a blowto the back of the head. Every

(38:23):
single one of them. And, and yousee, once again, you put them
down, you hit them with the backof the head. You don't have to
look in their eyes. Atrocity andcombat are 2 different things.
And I covered that in on killingas well. Atrocity, you know, the
Nazis, they didn't have to lookeveryone in the eye and kill
them. They they the one person,they stripped them, and now you
don't have clothes on. What? Whodon't wear clothes?

(38:45):
Animals don't wear clothes. Andthen you you another person puts
them in the gas chamber, anotherone goes and takes the bodies
out, and there's this diffusionof responsibility that goes on
there. But they they've gotta dothat kind of thing. Atrocity and
killing somebody face on face incombat. 2 different things.
And this tragic image of allthese people, and somebody came

(39:07):
and buried them, and buriedfamilies together. It's just the
tragedy of the war tribe comingback to their home, finding all
the wounded children dead. So,you know, good point. You know,
we'd look out, but but to saythat it's always been like that
from a few perspectives, and welook at them, you know, the
wounds, as he said. But a lot ofthat's, you know, I I've been

(39:28):
involved with some of thosepapers.
I'm a little more complex thanthat. But you're right. We have
been able to bring it down, andnow it's back up again. And and
that's a really valid point.

Rob Huberty (39:38):
I feel like you teach every kind of police
seminar. I I'm across thecountry and, you know, I would
never police, but I interactwith them and everybody knows
you and probably has been toyour seminars

Sam Alaimo (39:47):
Yeah.

Rob Huberty (39:48):
Or a lot. Right? And and is aware of your kind of
message. And you said so manydifferent things that lead into
it. You know, one of which, ifwe decide to spend money, if you
decide to address the problem,if you, you know, vilify 1 and,
you know, if if not make hero,but, like, make those things
more gray about who the good guyand the bad guy is that's bad.

(40:09):
A lot of this stuff is difficultto control as a society when,
you know, maybe one side wantsone way and another side wants
another way. What are tangiblethings that you think that we
could do right now? So ourentire idea is our company is
trying to do one small thing,and we're trying to take a step
forward, and we're trying to beapolitical about it. Yeah.
Right?

Dave Grossman (40:25):
We have another piece of the whole equation that
nobody could deny. I'mpresenting a paper on this to a
conference recently. And one ofthe effects of the video games
and the movies and social mediaand cell phones is sleep
deprivation. Now, there'snothing macho or tough about
going without sleep. Any 10 yearold girl in a slumber party can
do it.

(40:45):
The professional thing is tomanage your sleep. And I do I
love the Nobel concept. The guythat doesn't ring the bell. The
guy that got through. I do apiece on Ranger School prep, and
I'm I'm I'd I'd like I'd likeQuora.
I do a fair amount of work onQuora, and I kind of bounce
ideas out there, get it get it,you know, we're able to get it
get it crowdsourced, and and I'mworking now on on a kind of

(41:07):
tying it all together onpreparation. There's a guy, you
know, who talked about failingout his out of out of BUDS.
Gonna be a Navy SEAL, and hedropped out. He said, I rang the
bell. He said, I was physicallyprepared.
I was not mentally prepared forthe suck. I was in great shape,
but nobody ever taught me tosuck and to drive on. And so how

(41:29):
do you do that? How do you teachthat? And the answer is fasting.
Fasting. Now in ranger school,you you go days without sleep
and days without food. And andmy ranger school was in 3
components. It extended FortBenning stage, we had a mountain
stage, and a jungle phase, anddivided into thirds. At the end
of that binning phase, I I I wasI had the highest peer eval of

(41:53):
anybody, and and everybody inthe platoon peered me number 1.
We had all kinds of spotreports. I was kicking ass. And
and see, I've been prepared forsleep deprivation. I'd work 12
hours a day, 7 days a week forfor for months on end. But I was
not prepared for fooddeprivation.
When I got up to the mountains,I just became another zombie. I

(42:13):
was I was sucking. I I hit thewall. I I was prepared for sleep
deprivation, but nobody had everprepared me for no calories
coming in the machine. And andthe software goes out before the
hardware does.
You can go a long time withoutfood and and still metabolize
energy, but the software goesout. And so the prep program

(42:34):
revolves around extended periodsof physical exertion combined
with sleep deprivation and fooddeprivation. And you pre stress
inoculate yourself. Now, again,there's nothing fancy about
going without sleep, and we'veall done that. But go at night
without sleep, and and and a daywithout food.
Got a day, no food all day long,no sleep, The next morning, go

(42:58):
do your road map or do that dothat do that. You don't have to
swim. Have you've had no foodand no sleep for 24 hours, but
nobody should know. You can oh,it's so hard to go into a food
sea. No.
No. No. Nobody should knowexcept you and your training
buddy, and and nobody knows. AndI do this a lot with young
soldiers and infantry officerbasic. They're gonna be infantry

(43:21):
officers.
They're young, butter bars,second lieutenants. They finish
infantry basic. They're going toranger school. How do you prep
for that? Well, you start at thebeginning of infantry officer
basic.
You and your you and your rangerbuddy, you go in a Friday
without food, and Friday nightwithout sleep, and then on
Saturday, go do a a Compassguided cross country march. And

(43:44):
and, and and and then give you afew days a few weeks for your
body to recover. Then go all dayFriday, all day Saturday without
food, and Friday without sleep.And now go push that envelope
and do a long cross countrycompass guided march, or do that
long swim, and keep pushing thatenvelope. Don't let your body
don't let your body weight godown.

(44:05):
But do you you wanna learn howto suck? You really want to eat
what's hard. What people don'twant to do is to go without
food. And if you can do that, ifyou could suck it up in your own
personal training, then when youhave to suck it up in ranger
school, and I think the samewould be true in buds, then you
so much better prepared yourselfto suck. But if you don't wanna

(44:26):
do that, you don't wanna gowithout food.
I for religious purposes andhealth purposes, I I fast about
once a week. I do a 36 hourfast. I I I we we got dinner,
and then I go to bed. And thenext day, don't eat anything all
day long. Go to bed.
The next morning, I havebreakfast. And and after ranger
school, that's not very hard atall. But most people, it's it's

(44:47):
impossible. And and and theythey haven't built up there. So
if you wanna be this NobelPrize, you wanna be prepared to
suck, your training programshould incorporate no food, and
make your body continue toperform without food and without
sleep, and pre inoculateyourself, pre express yourself.
And and and and this is the key,but it comes back let's talk

(45:09):
about going without sleep. We'rein the middle of a global
epidemic of sleep deprivation.Now sleep deprivation is a key
factor in suicides. Right now,it is physically impossible for
you to take your life. You canno more intentionally take your
own life, than with your eyes,you'd look at the back of your

(45:30):
head.
But what happens is this. You'vegot all these problems, finances
and and and all these problems.But then you add alcohol.
Alcohol has always been thecatalyst that makes it possible
to overcome the drive to selfpreservation. Got all these
other problems, relationshipsand finances.
You had alcohol. Boom. But sleepdeprivation does the exact same

(45:54):
thing. And you're only drunk fora brief window. Your sleep
provider goes on and on and on.
And sleep deprivation, it's justlike being drunk, and we know
this. So do an online search.Suicide and sleep deprivation.
Boom. It comes right up.
And one of the best studies saysnot only is sleep deprivation a
key factor in suicide, it's themost remediable factor. We can't

(46:16):
do much about your your yourfinances or your relationships
right now, but we can give you agood night's sleep right
stinking now. Now children,suicide rate worldwide has
exploded. Twin Eaters, 10, 11,12 year old, teenage girls
suicide rate has tripled in justthe last decade. Now here's
parenting 101 for the 21stcentury.

(46:37):
When you send your kid to bed atnight, take their cell phone
away from them. No cell phone,no laptop, no TV in their room.
They've got to go to the roomand sleep. A cop came up to me
during a break in one of myclasses. He said, I had one of
those teenagers.
He said, she was a good girl.She was an A student. She said,
dad, it's embarrassing. You Youdon't have to take my phone

(46:57):
every night. You can trust me.
Family policy. If you're thecharge, you go to bed. Okay.
Keep your phone. I trust you.
She said a little while ago, shetook her life. My little girl
took her life. She said, Wenever knew the hell she was
living in until we looked at thetext messages on her cell phone.
Night after night of ceaseless,relentless, vicious bullying.

(47:18):
And he can't just ignore that.
We're not wired that way. Hesaid, it was heartrending. She
woke up all night long, nightafter night, trying to defend
herself. He said I immediatelyunderstood my little girl was
bullied to death. What I didn'tunderstand until now, she was
sleep deprived, tormented, andbullied to death in front of my
eyes, and I let it happen.

(47:39):
He said, I can't ignore thattext message in the middle of
that. How can we expect our kidsto? He said, the one thing on
earth that I left for my littlegirl was take her phone every
night, turn off all the badstuff in this world. Who's gonna
be your mama? You see, here'sthe thing.
Sleep is a biological blindspot. Our bodies don't know how
to make us get enough sleep. Italways happened naturally. It

(48:02):
got dark every night. There wasnothing to do.
It was dark. And and a littlesex, a little talking, roll
over, we went to sleep. Wedidn't have to make ourselves
sleep. It happened naturally.Now the body needs 4 things to
survive.
Air, water, food, and sleep. Thebody knows how to make us get
enough air, food, and water.Don't worry about that for a
while. It'll take over. But thebody doesn't know how to make us

(48:24):
get enough sleep.
It's a biological blind spot.And worldwide we're being
hammered by this. Traffic guestshave exploded worldwide. Decade
after decade, we brought trafficdown. Airbags, seat belts,
medical technology.
Now, what is the new factor inthe explosion of suicide? What's
the new factor in the explosionof traffic deaths? We know what
it is. Mental illness. Do anonline search.

(48:44):
Sleep deprivation, mentalillness. Boom. We're gonna do
some of my mental illness.Sleep. And and traffic deaths.
Sleep. And suicide sleep. Itrained just just, this year. I
I do a lot of training on schoolsafety. At the East Texas School
Safety Conference.
Just just a hundred of thepeople responsible for the
safety of the students said,we're gonna talk about violence
in your school. But odds arepretty yet having a kid

(49:06):
murdered. I bet you had asuicide. Bet you had traffic
deaths. I bet you had mentalillness.
And so what what do we do aboutsuicide? Sleep. Well, my 2nd
grade teacher told us cigaretteskill people. I went home and hid
my dad's cigarettes. If we teachthose kids three things, three
things.
This is how much sleep you needat your age. You must sleep in

(49:28):
total darkness. Your body isdesigned to sleep in total
darkness and cut off caffeineshortly after lunch. We do these
three things, we can completelydodge the bullet. As an adult,
you need at least 7 hours ofsleep a day.
If you are not getting 7 hoursof sleep, you are literally
eating yourself alive. Now, 7hours of sleep, cut off caffeine

(49:49):
shortly after lunch, and sleepin total darkness. Add a sleep
mask. The Amazon storage sleepmask is my favorite. It has over
85,005 star reviews for astinking mask.
85,000 reviews for a mask. Thenumber 2 sleep mask, the one my
wife likes it, is 60,005 starreviews for a stinking mask.
Three things. We teach our kids.Here's how much sleep you need

(50:11):
at your age.
Cut off caffeine, short. Nowthere's a lot more in the
equation than the 90% solutionof these three things right
there. Now here's the key. Sleepdeprivation creates chronic
pain. We've all been there.
Had a bad night's sleep, we'rehurt the next day. Sleep
deprivation, a new factor in theopioid epidemic. Fentanyl's an
opiate. Fentanyl kills 70, 80000Americans a year. If not for

(50:32):
Narcan, that number would bemuch higher.
We lose more people to Fentanylevery year than the entire
Vietnam War. And and and and notjust Fentanyl, but the other
prescription opiates.Prescription opiates have always
been there. Why are they thedrug of choice? Why not meth?
Why not crack? Why doeseverybody want opiates? Because
we're in the middle of a globalepidemic of sleep deprivation,

(50:55):
and and it's a key factor inchronic pain. And and, doc, I
heard all the time, give me apill to fix. You don't need a
pill.
You need more sleep. And kindaknock off the damn caffeine
after lunch to stop you gettingdeep cycle sleep. And so, yeah,
so you wanna do something aboutopioid overdoses sleep. They
want suicide sleep, trafficdeath sleep, mental illness
sleep. This is the one areawhere we'll walk out that door

(51:17):
and save the lives of kids in aschool across America right now.

Sam Alaimo (51:21):
Like, on the one hand, you have I agree with
everything you're saying.There's a sleep deprivation, it
leads to a lot of secondaryeffects that are horrific for
the human condition. But on theother hand, you have you talked
about Buzz, talked about RangerSchool, sleep deprivation, food
deprivation, chronic stress.Yes. These individuals are not
doing fentanyl.
So I guess what I'm trying tosay is it's not just the

(51:42):
fentanyl. It's not just thephone. There's something else
going on there because there ispositive, like you said, pre
stress inoculate. It'sbrilliant. Yeah.
There's something reallypositive about these hardcore
forms of stress. There'ssomething really negative about
the other forms of stress andit's not just fentanyl. Fentanyl
doesn't make anybody take it.There's something else missing.
I think there's somethingdeeper, something ritual, maybe,

(52:03):
some guidance, some community.
You wanna riff on that?

Dave Grossman (52:06):
Our members worldwide. It's just worldwide.
Oh, it's it's it's, you know,psychotropic drugs given to
children. Is that what'shappening in Mexico? Is that
what's happening in Brazil andall these other nations doing
online?
Go to go to go to Wikipedia.Look at global murder rates, and
and and you'll see the the themurder rates worldwide. And
they've exploded everywhere.Again, I've got the the I

(52:28):
presented Interpol data, and,and 20 years ago, Interpol stops
reporting the data because thenation did not want people to
know it's classified. It's justworldwide.
So whatever your dynamic is butlet's go back to sleep
deprivation. Here's the key. Weknow the link between alcohol
and violent crime. Without adoubt, we have 2 centuries and

(52:49):
10000 studies showing the linkbetween alcohol and violence. I
believe behavior.
The inhibitions go away whenyou're drunk. Drunk people do
stupid stuff. Drunk people getin fights. We all know that. It
it is it is scientificallyvalid.
But if sleep deprivation is justlike being drunk, and it is in

(53:09):
every other area, then this newepidemic of sleep deprivation
may be part of the equation. Thehead of Netflix said their
competitor is sleep. Thecorporate policy of Netflix is
to steal your sleep. They don'tcare that they're killing
people. The video games.
So one of my books,assassination generation. In in
2005, the state of Californiaoverwhelmingly voted to regulate

(53:33):
children's access to violentvideo games. 2005, California
and Silicon Valley said, we'regood with this. Hollywood said,
we're good with this. ArnoldSchwarzenegger was governor.
Arnold signed the law regulatingchildren's access to these these
entirely attractive, addictive,desirable, violent video games.
And the video game industryfought all the way to the

(53:53):
Supreme Court. They said we havea constitutional First Amendment
right. This is any gamededicated to any age, you cannot
stop us. And they it's all inthe book.
They conned 7 old men, 7 SupremeCourt Justice, never played pong
in their life, overturned theCalifornia law. Now where you
cross the line into evil is whenyou fight to sell your stuff to

(54:15):
children, and and you don't getthe information out there. And
and Netflix goal is is is tosteal your sleep, and the video
games are ever more desirable,immersive, and attractive, and
and that's fine with adults. Butwhen you when you fight to the
Supreme Court to sell this stuffto children, time out. So this
new factor worldwide is the thedesirable movies, the social

(54:37):
media that are ever moreaddictive.
The algorithm rewires it to makeit ever more addictive and
immersive. These incrediblyimmersive and attractive and
desirable video games, and thevideo games are designed to put
it in a flow state. We've allwe've ever played the game,
suddenly it's 4 o'clock in themorning, got no idea where the
last day downwards went, it'stime to get dressed and go to
work. That they do that onpurpose. They're called a flow

(55:00):
state.
And they try to create thosegames where you lose track of of
time and you become totallyimmersed in the game. And so
this this entire industry isinvested in this process of
stealing our sleep and stealingour children's sleep.

Rob Huberty (55:14):
An interesting thing with all that, you know, I
grew up with video games. I knowwhat you're talking about, and I
don't, you know, I personallydon't feel that they caused me
any of those things. But Iagain, that's anecdotal
evidence. That's my experience.Right?
I track my sleep every night,and the the it tells you
basically, are you going to havea good day or a bad day? That's
it. That's all. I mean, it'slike, are you red or green
today? And on days that you'rered, what you find out is that

(55:37):
if you have one drink ofalcohol, just one, it massively
changes your sleep.

Dave Grossman (55:42):
Massive 1. You're seeing that with just one drink?
1. That's good data. That's goodto know.

Rob Huberty (55:46):
It's it's it's awesome data. And when you look
at it as a group, I have a lotof friends who wear them, and
we, like, compare our statstogether. And it it causes
everybody to sleep probably,like, 15 minutes more a day.
It's not massive, but it itmatters. And I think a
depressive state kinda goes awaywith more sleep.
You're that's that's spot on.Yeah. But all of that being
said, I think I have what Iwould call good sleep hygiene.

(56:08):
You know, I I also have kidstoo. So I have young kids.
My oldest daughter is 10 yearsold. So some of this stuff, we
we have we don't allow screensin their rooms and stuff like
that. You know, how I chose mybed, how I did this. Like, I
spent a lot of time and efforton that. And and the truth is I
did it because I was superdepressed.
Oh, it's so good. And and a lotof it you know, I've I've always
exercised, so that's that's onething that, you know, I've kind

(56:29):
of consistently done. Even whenI feel bad, I usually still
kinda exercise. All of thatbeing said, I'm doing this
because I'm pursuing it becauseI realized that there are holes
in my own life. Right?
How do you educate people to dothis? So this is by a choice,
and it was by I there was a holein my life, and I was like, I
need to fix myself. Yeah. How dowe educate people to put this
stuff away? There's we're so putthe screens down as a parent.

(56:52):
I can make my kids, but, like,they could hide that from me as
they get older. This is a fearthat I have. Right now, I can
control it. You know, I have Ihave 3 kids in one room, 1 kid
in another room, and 4 kids. Ican control their, you know,
media consumption.
Right. How do we educate Americato do this?

Dave Grossman (57:07):
There's a website I recommend to everybody called
And screenstrong.com is reallyleading the way on on on what
we're doing. The cell phoneaddiction, they they take this
medical addiction model and theyapply it well. Detox and their

(57:27):
whole family detoxes togetherfor a period of time, they're
doing a great job. But when theytalk about the long term answer,
and what truly my dad startedsmoking 1941 when he was 5 years
old.
He said he plunked a nickel onthe counter at the general
store. Couldn't even look overthe counter. Plunked a nickel on
the counter. 5 years old. Boughta pack of Bolton Tobacco rolling

(57:47):
papers.
Started smoking 5 years old.Hey, candy rot your teeth.
Right? Cigarettes are good foryou. It's his money.
Candy rot your teeth. They justbought it. Let them buy
cigarettes. And they hadcigarette ads that said, More
doctors smoke Campbell's. Oh,and it said, At your dentist, I
recommend Viceroy's.
And they really thoughtcigarettes are good for you. 55
years later, the cigarettesfinally killed my dad. But the

(58:09):
battle was with this thisindustry to admit their product
did harm and to stop selling itto children. And we're in the
same kind of battle outages. Allthis technology that steals our
children's sleep.
And and to recognize thatthere's so many things kids can
do, but adults can't. Alcohol,tobacco, sex, pornography,

(58:29):
automobiles. There's so manythings, guns. So many things
adults can do, but kids can't.And there's industries out there
trying to market their productto children.
That's where we draw the line.And so it begins like my 2nd
grade teacher telling mecigarettes killed you. One home
hit my dad's cigarettes. Whenour elementary teacher tells us,
a a generation will grow up, andand we didn't ban tobacco. We're

(58:52):
gonna ban this stuff.
All we're saying is don't sellit to children and admit that it
can do harm, just like tobacco.So we've got a model there that
we'd already build on.

Sam Alaimo (59:00):
Maybe switch subjects here a little bit. I'm
very curious about your new bookon hunting. Sure. You mentioned
briefly about account of the thehunter hunted model has kind of
an impact on the humancondition. Let's let's just dive
into that however you want to.
It sounds fascinating.

Dave Grossman (59:13):
You know, there's there's a lot of fun. In On
Hunting, we pulled together alot of data. You know, we we
talk about the the ecology ofhunting. In in Africa, Kenya has
completely banned all trophyhunting, and they're being
slaughtered. There's no no moneyto to protect them.
Meanwhile, other places likeNamibia, Namibia has drawn a

(59:35):
circle around every village,said everything in this circle
belongs to you. And so thatcrazy American, who will pay a
$100,000 to shoot that lion,who's at the end of the loop
life cycle anyway, that death byold age and nature is a horrible
terrible death, and and at theend of the life cycle, this
American is gonna pay a $100,000to give a quick ethical death to

(59:57):
this lion. And and and all thatmoney goes to the village. And
they've got they've got they'rethriving, and the economy is
thriving. And the only peoplewho have given them money, and
the only product they have tosell is the game.
And we we catch them at the endof their life cycle, and we we
desire to do that, and we'rewe're harvesting own food and

(01:00:17):
the wellness of that, butthere's one critical component
here. We have always been in themiddle of the food chain. Now we
have the gripping fangs of apredator. We have the the the
forward planet eyes of apredator. We also have the
chiseled teeth of a rabbit, andthe grinding molars of a grass
eater.
And throughout the history ofour species, we've been in the

(01:00:39):
middle of the food chain. TheBritish government in India,
between the year 191910, in onedecade, 191910, over a 100000
people in India were killed bytigers. We've got the the
crappiest stuff from run likehell rabbit genes built into us.
We've also got the hunterdynamic of of lock on laser, you

(01:01:02):
know, of of of we can go one wayor the other. There's no fun to
be prey.
There's no fun. We want to bethe hunter, not the hunted. But
what's happened, a lot of oursociety have opted to be the
hunted. You know, when I talkabout the wolf, the sheep, and
the sheepdog, it's just ametaphor, but I got the US
government trademark for theterm sheepdog as a protector. I

(01:01:24):
I coined it in my work.
And this idea of of of being thesheepdog, to be the hunter and
not the hunted. And this is oneof the major battles we're
facing across our wholecivilization, and we we got our
sheepdog kids books. Got asheepdog kids book, and then we
got the follow on book, whymommy carries a gun. Yeah. If
anybody in the family, mom ordad, grandma or grandpa, anybody

(01:01:46):
carry a gun, here's what we wantthe kids to know.
You know, find a gun, stop,don't touch, 4 universal gun
safety laws, famous sheepdogsthroughout history, second
amendment, all the safety thingswe want our kids to know. But
but this this whole business ofchoosing to be the the sheepdog.
So what's happening? One of thesteps you take is buying a gun,

(01:02:07):
and we've seen concealed carrypermits explode. And now, you
know, we've had all but 3 or 4states with shall issue
concealed carry, and now theSupreme Court has decided that
shall issue concealed carry isthe law of the land.
In California, they're firingtheir sheriffs. They're just
putting sheriffs out of officeto get concealed care permits
over this one issue. And so withthis battle, are we the

(01:02:29):
predator? Are we the prey? Arewe the hunter?
Are we the hunted? It doesn'tmatter whether you're out in the
woods hunting. It's a mindset.Whether or not I am a victim, or
I am a sheepdog, we're juststanding up and protect what I
what I love. And so this wholebattle about hunting is really
about who we are and what weare.
Our our our it's no fun to bethe prey. People are miserable.

(01:02:50):
People are miserable. But theyhave got this prey mindset. And
and and we can embrace thehunter and not the hunted.
But this so much of what's goingon in society, we look through
that lens and get a betterpicture of who they are and what
they're really doing.

Sam Alaimo (01:03:05):
This isn't exactly tangential, but it's
interesting, so I'll bring itup. Yeah. You bring you bring up
sheepdog, wolf, and sheep, justanecdotal, but like going into
the SEAL teams, for example, alot of those guys weren't
strictly sheepdogs. Yeah. A lotof them were wolves taught how
to behave.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, youknow, for for a lot of them,
that was an asset, and thatenabled them to kinda walk right

(01:03:26):
down that middle line Yep. Andbe effective and then be upright
and strong when things gotreally, really bad Yeah. Because
they were built for that kind ofsituation.
I mean, what what do you what doyou think about that kind of
that kind of dichotomy andturning wolves into something
more noble? Yeah.

Dave Grossman (01:03:42):
And truly, you know, when we talk about
sociopathy, to be a sociopath,the the d the DSM tells us you
cannot diagnose children withsociopathy, because all children
are sociopaths. They they haveno empathy for others. We keep
trying to teach them empathy.Every 5 year old's a little
sociopath there. They have no wetry to teach them empathy.

(01:04:05):
What if somebody did that toyou? How would you feel about
that? You know, we try to teachthem empathy, but the the the
thing of it is that that there'sthis this line between being a
sheepdog and a sheep, andthere's a line between the
sheepdog and the wolf. And andwhat we're really talking about
is, you know, you really have alot of of highly dispensed

(01:04:25):
sociopaths out there. Andthey're they're they're they're
they're functional.
They're they're they'refunctional sociopaths. A
professor was studyingsociopathy, and he realized,
hey. I'm a sociopath. He said, Inever let my grandkid was
winning a game. I I'm vicious.
I'm a sociopath. But he said, Ican change. I could be a better
person. I mean, let my grandkidswin a game. I can I can be a

(01:04:47):
little easier on the peoplearound me, and and the need is
there that we make thatdecision?
And the most important thing ofall, the difference between the
sheepdog and the wolf isdiscipline.

Sam Alaimo (01:04:56):
I think maybe we'll go to the the lightning round
now. Shoot. You've got you know,your life has been jam packed,
full career. How many books haveyou authored? 16.
You've got something figuredout. So, like, what are 1 to 3
things you do in the morning toprime yourself to crush the day?

Dave Grossman (01:05:11):
I try to begin every morning with a prayer.
God, let me do a good job today.Just just let me do a good job.
Keep your hand up on me, guideme, and protect me. And then I I
try to eat a light breakfast,and I try to dive right into
work.
I've got an office in my home.I've got 2 good people that work
with me. My employees keep meout of trouble. I'm on the road
constantly, and, and I try tolead by example.

Sam Alaimo (01:05:32):
What about a workout program at 68? What do you do to
stay

Dave Grossman (01:05:35):
Yeah. You know, my presentation is very much a
workout. I'm always moving. I'llI'll teach 8 hours to g cops, 8
hours straight, and never stopmoving. And and so life is your
workout.
I grew up this stairs. I'm 68years old. I grew up this stairs
too at the time every singletime. I walk fast. Wherever I
go, I walk fast.
My knees and I I bike a lot. Wegot a a group of of older folks
in the neighborhood. We call itours our senile delinquent biker

(01:05:59):
gang. I train with energy. Mylife is full of energy.
And choose to walk slow or walkfast. It's a conscious decision,
but, you know, I try not to bejudgmental, but I walk past
people, and you know, walk slow,die fast. You know what? The
research is there. Walk slow,die fast.
You know, just just make thatdecision to walk with energy, to
lead your life with energy.

Sam Alaimo (01:06:17):
Few things are as cognitively demanding as
writing, so how do you get inthis zone?

Dave Grossman (01:06:23):
It's just blocking out time every day,
focusing and concentrating, andconcentrating, and I'm pretty
good at it. I got people in theoffice with me, so again, you
lead by example. They're hereworking, and I need to be here
working. And for me, themornings are usually high
productive times when I reallydig into to doing some good
quality writing and try to tieit together. Yeah.

Sam Alaimo (01:06:42):
What are a few books that changed your life?

Dave Grossman (01:06:44):
The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien. I'm a huge geek.
I'm just a huge Tolkien geek.

Rob Huberty (01:06:49):
Yeah.

Dave Grossman (01:06:49):
He's one of the great influencers of my life.
The other great book is, RobertHeinlein's book Starship
Troopers. There was a time itwas on the FORSCOM officer's
recommended reading list. If youhad any 10 infantry officers
together, 5 of them were tryingto shove Starship Troopers down
the throat of the other 5. Butit's just it's just great story

(01:07:10):
about, you know, this guy inEnlist, in a elite organization.
He goes to OCS. He becomes aleader, and then he he goes out
and does great things. And itwas like my life model. And so
what? Starship Troopers and Lordof the Rings, those are the 2
most influential.
And, of course, I gotta I gottasay the Bible. It really is
powerful. The word of God isalive and powerful.

Sam Alaimo (01:07:30):
How can people follow you?

Dave Grossman (01:07:31):
My website is grossmanontruth.com. And we're
we're active in, in all thesocial media realms, and we've
tried to put info out, LinkedInand Facebook, and some of the
others we're doing, butgrossmanontruth.com.

Sam Alaimo (01:07:45):
Genuinely appreciate your time, sir. Like, you've had
a fascinating life, loved yourbooks, and I appreciate the
time.

Dave Grossman (01:07:50):
Well, gentlemen, I I I hold you up. What you're
doing is so important. It's ait's a growth industry. You
don't know it yet, but it's itis huge. When the American
population really begins tounderstand how bad it really is,
they'll start throwing money atthis problem, and and you will
have the opportunity to see itlike you're already doing
incredible things, andcongratulations on that.
But it's been my honor to spendtime with you and your wonderful

(01:08:12):
audience, and god bless you. Godbless America.

Sam Alaimo (01:08:15):
That's it for this episode. If you wanna check out
more from the podcast, head to0eyes.com/nobell, where you can
see show notes, read more aboutour guests, and suggest guests
or topics of your own. Untilnext time, stay in the fight.
Don't ring the bell.