The Westside Warrior

Host Sam Alaimo sits down with Jason “Gus” Gusic to uncover how a small-town Indiana boy became a Marine, police officer, and eventually, the mastermind behind Conjugate Tactical. Jason's story is a masterclass in leveraging life experiences to build a business that strengthens both bodies and minds.

Episode Transcript

Sam (00:03):
This is the No Bell podcast where we talk about how to
optimize your technology, life,and mind. We're joined by
special operations veterans,entrepreneurs, investors, and
others who have overcomedifficulty to make it to the top
of their craft by staying in thefight. I'm Sam Alaimo. Welcome

(00:24):
to the No Bell podcast. I haveJason Gus Gusic of Westside
Barbell and founder of ConjugateTactical.
Well welcome.

Jason (00:32):
Hey, man. Thanks for having me.

Sam (00:33):
Yeah. Let's start where we always do. Where did you grow
up?

Jason (00:36):
So I grew up in Northwest Indiana where just probably like
everybody who joined themilitary swore I was never
coming back and got out and cameright back. But I grew up in a
small town called Lake Stationor East Gary, if you know, try
not to fancy it up too much, andthen ended up moving about 20
minutes away from where I grewup to a little town called
Chesterton, and that's whereI've been since o seven, o

(00:57):
eight, maybe.

Sam (00:58):
What what was your earliest memory of wanting to join the
Marine Corps?

Jason (01:01):
Man, I I really don't know. On that one, it's like I
think everyone when you're a kidis, like, you know, you watch at
least my age group, you know,you watch, like, Red Dawn and GI
Joe cartoons and go to the woodsand and do all that kinda goofy
stuff. But I think I gotserious, like, actually
entertaining joining themilitary probably by the end of
my my 10th 10th grade year inhigh school. And 11th grade, it

(01:23):
was pretty much a done deal. Iwas just waiting to turn 18.
So somewhere around that, like,16, 17 year old age was like,
yeah. This this is the route I'mgonna take. And that, you know,
it predates 911. It was justmore of, like, I need to get the
hell out of here because nothinggood comes from this area, it
seems like.

Sam (01:39):
Okay. I mean, you're in kind of a a hardcore
professional right now. You're amarine corps. I wonder when you
were a kid, were you a hoodlum,or were you a pretty straight
laced?

Jason (01:48):
Like, there's some some dudes doing much worse stuff
than me. But for a white boythat grew up in the suburbs of
Indiana, like, we're kind of apain in the ass, like a, you
know, classic story. Like, youknow, just like I don't know,
man. We smoke a little bit ofweed, and, you know, some of the
guys who had cool older brotherswould buy us some beers, but
nothing too nothing too drasticor or dark. You know?

(02:09):
Like, knocked over some people'sgarbage cans and broke some
window. Just normal high schoolkids stuff, but nothing nothing
dark like you hear on some, youknow, some people's experience
and stuff.

Sam (02:20):
So you said pre 9/11. When did you actually get into the
marine corps?

Jason (02:23):
I was on that trajectory. I knew that's where I wanted to
go and, like, the dorky kid justhanging out at the recruiter's
office forever, but I ended upyou know, my parents wouldn't
sign for me being young. Youknow, dad was a Vietnam vet or
still is a Vietnam vet. Ifyou're going, we'll support you,
but we're not gonna do the theparental signature, whatever
that was. I can't remember whatthat was called.
But I legitimately signed up onmy 18th birthday, July 5, 2001.

(02:45):
I woke up, had breakfast with mymom because my dad was at work,
drove out to the recruiter'soffice, like, 20 minutes, 30
minutes away, signed up, andjust kinda sat there from there.
You know?

Sam (02:54):
Were you in boot camp when 9/11 happened?

Jason (02:56):
I was in the delayed entry program for quite a while,
and then 9/11 happened, so Ididn't like, I was supposed to
ship within weeks. It was like,just get me the heck out of
here, but I guess when you'vegot a 18 year old kid who's
already signed up, they're gonnathey're gonna kinda stage the
chessboard for where they needto fill a quota. So then, it was
like, well, 9/11 popped off, andit's like, well, get me out of

(03:17):
here. I wanna go do stuff. It'slike, well, yeah.
We've got hundreds of peoplesigning up, so we'll get to you
when we get to you. And so theykept shifting me around, but I
actually didn't head off to bootcamp until December of o one.

Sam (03:28):
You're 18, about to go into the Marine Corps, a a combat
unit. 9/11 happened, and youwere just, let me in. Let me in.
I wanna go.

Jason (03:35):
Yeah. I mean, it it wasn't and I I was an artillery
man when I started, and I justended up doing just like
anything. My entire adult lifehas been falling back ass into
cool scenarios that I don'tdeserve to be in. But it was it
was honestly, I signed up to getout of here and try to do
something I originally wanted todo, like, air force or navy. It
just kinda follow the traderoute, but the artillery thing

(03:56):
seemed pretty interesting.
Maybe the recruiter just neededto fill a bill, and I don't
know, but he sold it. And so Isigned up for that. And then,
you know, I never really hadathis is so long ago at 41 years
old, but I never really had thatregret or the equivalent of
buyers remorse or anything. Itwas just more like even keel.
Let's just kind of sit or getoff the pot for lack of a better

(04:18):
term.
And then when that went, itreally reaffirmed like, okay,
this went from getting somecollege money and traveling to
big boy rules now. And it waslike, well, I don't know what I
don't know, but still want to dothis. And then I think you layer
in just some ignorance of youthand stuff like that, just the
the generic wanna go get somekinda thing. You know, that was

(04:39):
pretty much it. So once theysent me December, it was like,
yeah, for this is what we'redoing now.

Sam (04:43):
Where'd you end up deploying?

Jason (04:45):
So that's the funny part of all that, like, moto stuff.
Ended up sitting in Hawaii andJapan for three and a half years
or so, and had to it wasluckily, like, we got volunteer
there was a program going thatwe could volunteer for to go,
like, to Afghanistan. But aheadof Afghanistan, it was your
traditional 3rd marine divisiondeployments. So we went to
Okinawa for 6 or 7 months at atime, and then punched out to

(05:08):
various spots throughout Asia.But I mean, it really was a
wonderful experience ofeverything from Singapore,
Thailand, Japan, Korea, you nameit.
Like, we went all over Asia, andthat was a really cool
experience. And then when allthat got said and done, the
option to go to Afghanistan cameand went for that, and ended up
having to extend for anotheryear and some change to make

(05:28):
that work. And so that waspretty much it, man. It was in
and out of Hawaii for 4yearsroughly 4 years, and then
spent back to back deploymentsin Afghanistan for a year, give
or take, somewhere around ayear.

Sam (05:39):
Was it a 1 year deployment or 2 smaller deployments?

Jason (05:42):
So it started original plan was a at least this is how
I understood it and remember it,But it started off as a 1 year,
and then they decided to move usback to just a 6 month once we
were already in country, so guyscould volunteer to kind of
relieve in place and do a seconddeployment or go home at this

(06:03):
new 6 month mark. And almosteverybody in our group stayed
for the full long haul. One guyended up signing on for another
3 months. But yeah, so it wasthe equivalent of 2 deployments
as it was administrativelylisted, and then it was just
basically staying in country fora year. We don't really have a
plan for this, so you guys justrelieve yourselves and stay for
another 6 months while we figureit out.

Sam (06:24):
So what did you get into over that 12 month period in
Afghanistan?

Jason (06:28):
Man, it was slow to start. So this was the early,
early days of the embeddedteams, and we were in the
southeast of Afghanistan when itwas an army country. So we were
in a little area called thePektika province, And according
to locals, it was a countrycalled Waziristan, which is not
a real place, but we landed inBagram and then punched out to

(06:50):
our fobs. And a group of us wentto Tilman to start and then had
to convoy and bring a group.This and this was like the
precursor to the Afghan NationalArmy.
Like, there was no NATO weaponsor supplies. Like, we'd find a a
supply of RPGs and AKs and belike, cool. You guy who doesn't
have a gun yet? Here's one. Youknow?
So this was very poorlysupervised. We were maybe 15

(07:11):
marines, 2 corpsmen, so 17 of usand of, I believe, 30 ish total
marines in country. So like Isaid, poorly supervised, but
that made for a lot of fun. Westarted off in Tillman, worked
our way up to Burmel, and thenfrom Burmel, we worked between
Burmel and Shk'an as our primaryfobs on the border there in
Pakistan. So it was a lot ofjust open patrolling with really

(07:33):
no outcomes, And, you know, we'dfind a lot of weapons and stuff,
but that's not anything crazyover there.
And we fell in in a our our fobat the time was run by 3rd
group, so we got to cut ourteeth with the guys from ODA
332, and they taught us I mean,basically, they taught us
everything on how to stay alive.If we have no losses on our
team, do the stuff that we do,and it's probably gonna go okay

(07:55):
for you. We're, like, awesome.So literally just pull out
notebooks and and learn fromthose dudes. But gunfighting
started in the spring, and thenwe'd work between the border and
out in the mountains back andforth.
And then it's, you know, it'sjust typical stories of, you
know, some ambushes. Selfishly,we were fortunate that IEDs
didn't really start at a largelevel until our last couple of
months in country, so we didn'tget a whole lot of experience

(08:18):
there. Gunfights, a little bitof the IED and the old munitions
from the Soviet era beingrepurposed. And I want to say
that we did some benefit in thebig picture thinking of training
up these militias and thenessentially converting them into
the ANA, but I really don'tthink that we made a bit of a

(08:39):
difference in hindsight far asthe big picture goes, but

Sam (08:41):
To maybe wrap up the military, what was the best
aspect of the military you had,and what was the worst aspect of
the military?

Jason (08:48):
The two sides of the coin of leadership, in all honesty.
There's still lessons that isrunning my business and
everything now from the goodleaders that are forever
embedded in me, and it'sprobably a byproduct of aging,
but the more and moreexperiences that I can remember
and recall from bad supervisors,you know, I'm not going to say
bad leadership because I don'tthink there is such a thing as a

(09:10):
bad leader. A leader is goodsort of by nature, and there's
bad dudes or shitheads that fallin leadership roles. But in the
immediate, the piss poormanagement and and fake
leadership was terrible toendure, but being so far
separated from the military andin charge of some stuff now,

(09:31):
those lessons of terribleleadership or or management are
invaluable at this phase of mylife. So I I have to say that
the good leadership that weexperienced was wonderful
because that really kinda setyour foundation.
But more beneficial than thatwas the terrible examples of of
men in leadership roles thatshouldn't be there because it it
teaches you exactly how youshouldn't behave or treat human

(09:54):
beings. So that would definitelybe 2 versions of the best
experience. And then the worst,I mean, I would say in the in
the immediate was being at themercy of those guys in those bad
people in leadership roles. Thatwas the worst portion of it. And
then now, I mean, there's reallyno negative at the end of the
day other than, you know, a fewmissed nights of sleep and

(10:17):
whatever.
Like, may my problems be sosmall? So I really have no no
real negatives I've drawn fromthe military, minus, you know,
bad knees. What can you do aboutthat and whatnot? So it was a
wonderful experience for me.

Sam (10:29):
Yeah. I've had a super similar experience. It's hard to
articulate. You said it well.Like, you see a really good
leader, you don't know the magicthat goes into that Mhmm.
That how they actually did it.But a bad leader, it's a
concrete. Just don't do that.

Jason (10:42):
A 1000%.

Sam (10:43):
So having that military experience coming back out,
what's something that themilitary did extremely well that
the you think the private sectorshould do more of?

Jason (10:51):
Man, I would say efficiency. In all honesty, the
the simplicity and andorganization of, like, fire
teams. Like, cool. You got acouple years under your belt,
you got 3 new guys. Guys.
Squad leader has, you know, 3fire team leaders. Platoon
sergeant has 3 squad leaders.Like the just the very
simplicity in organization andthe the path of least resistance

(11:12):
from point A to point Btypically gets the job done. The
biggest joke in the Marines,like when you kind of pick up
corporal, at least for us, wasthe best way to get things done
is just have PFCs and LanceCorporals just tell them to get
it done, and they're gonna findthe most efficient way to get it
done because it's their libertyor their lunch hour at risk. So

(11:34):
they're gonna knock it out ofthe park and not overcomplicate
things.
And I feel that that's kind ofwhat's missing in the private
sector or even depending on howyou define private sector. So
like for profit businesses, nonprofits, things like that are
what most people considerprivate. And then for us and the
work we do contracting and oureducation component, it's like

(11:54):
we call our private work, thethings we do at federal, at
various stages of government. Iwould say if the private sector,
whether it's the the publicfacing private sector which most
of us refer to, you really don'tkind of break the habit or the
culture of priding oneself andovercomplicating very simple
tasks. I think that this thingwould be a hell of a lot more
efficient.
But when you balance, let's say,performance based professions

(12:16):
like commission based or ifyou've got a certain volume of
work to get done, there are sometech companies that they don't
give you an 8 hour day, you justget a task list, and when it's
done, it's done, and you gohome. So if you reward
efficiency, things become moreefficient. And if you just
follow the standard, like, youknow, I was a police officer for
a while, and I made the sameamount of money if I wrote 40

(12:36):
tickets a day or 0 tickets. Andit's like, well, for some people
who aren't wired to basicallyreap what you sow or eat what
you kill, things can getconvoluted and pretty
complicated for no real reason.Man, don't make things more
complicated than they have tobe.
Like Excel Microsoft Excel is apretty simple platform to
navigate, man.

Sam (12:54):
There's a lot of talk, I'd say over the last 10 years,
particularly over the last 5years about the transition from
the military to the civilianworld. It's it's tough. You
transitioned out before, Ithink, there was almost any
interest in figuring out how tomake that easier for the
operators when they get out. Didyou have a difficult time when
you transition out of the MarineCorps?

Jason (13:15):
At the time, no. You know, that's the benefit of,
like, the ignorance of youth. Ileft at 23. In hindsight, dude,
I was a freaking mess. And, youknow, I don't wanna, like, peel
back layers and make this all,like, boohoo, woe is me stuff
because, you know, it's fine.
But, yeah, man, when I got out,it was the accountability
component. So we came home fromwar fighting in, call it,

(13:38):
Halloween 'six, and there reallywasn't a lot of programs in
place like for decompression orlike the warrior transition
stuff that eventually came out.So at least in our base, it was
like, man, sign up for thisroster. Make sure you hit these
3 courses, and then you'reyou're re adapted. You're good
to go back into statesidemilitary service.
And it's like we're 20 somethingyear old Marines, you're going

(14:00):
to figure out how to game thatand then go get hammered in the
barracks at noon. It's not a bigdeal. And then looking back on
it, that was a criticalcomponent was 2 or 3 months of
post war fighting, but militaryservice, and then military
service to civilian life waslike, Man, we really mishandled

(14:21):
that, but I don't really thinkthat there was a big focus on
quality of life or any sort ofend state. Been privy to some of
these dudes who have handled itwell and poorly, and just
gathering experience from themis that the guys who really
embraced the training options toreadapt are doing much better

(14:42):
than the guys who went my routewho just tried to drink it away
and distract herself from anysort of unpacking. And, you
know, I personally believeoutside looking in over all
these years now, that it hasgotten a heck of a lot better,
man.

Sam (14:58):
Let's bridge the gap from getting out of the military to
West Side Park. How did you endup?

Jason (15:02):
We had to figure something out, and Jess, my
wife, kind of tricked me intoopening a gym because I think
like any good wife or partner,they know how to push your
buttons. So she, you know, kindof taunted me into opening a gym
as a challenge. And I was like,okay, I'll do that. But I didn't
really know how so we had thesame tattoo artist. And she set
up a quick meeting to for Drew,the guy who did our tattoos, to

(15:23):
teach me how to start abusiness.
And it turns out you justbasically call the IRS, get a
number, and now you have abusiness. And just go set up a
checking account, you're good.So, thankfully, that was a
simple process. And so we wererunning a CrossFit affiliate for
a while, which led to findingWest Side Barbell back on the
main page back in the day. Imean, this is 'seven, 'eight.

(15:44):
Then by May of '09, we left thegarage and went brick and
mortar. So we run across ithaving a great time doing it,
and then that led us to gettingsome fighters and stuff in here
when MMA was kind of on therise, and my wife's, sort of,
lifelong best friend was a dudewho was fighting in the WEC, and
then the UFC absorbed the WEC,but we had been training and

(16:08):
inadvertently had gone from, Iwould say, fitness enthusiasts
to, oh, shit, we have proathletes in our gym now, and we
better not screw this up. Andthat was the catalyst for kind
of pursuing education in regardto strength and conditioning.
And so we tooled around CrossFitmain site and found Westside
Barbell in the, sort of, likefriends and family section back

(16:30):
when the page was yellow and itwas like real real basic. It was
awesome.
Awesome era, but went out to aseminar at Westside, and this is
October, give or take, October9, and I remember because I was
a rookie cop, and it was, like,might have had to swipe my own
squad car that I wasn't allowedto use to drive to Columbus
because we we only had one car,and we broke as shit. I'm like,

(16:52):
well, I know I could gas thisthing up. And the Kenneth side,
you know, I've donated somemoney to the IOP since then to
make good. But went out there tothe seminar, and this was one of
the first ones when Lou, youknow, used to have the seminar
at the gym there versus, youknow, shutting that down and
just punching out teams to teachit. So I went out there and sat
in on the seminar, learnedeverything we were missing here.

(17:12):
You know, we we knew we neededto get stronger, not just
fitter, you know? Breathing isgood, but, you know, we always
use the the the term in our inour work now. We always kind of
encourage people to find theworking balance of ass and mass
versus gas. And it's like, okay,so I don't need a 65 pound
barbell monster, I need someonewho can, you know, balance it

(17:34):
out. And, yeah, I think thisstuff has evolved so much now
that, you know, back in the day,the goal was a 500 pound
deadlift in, was a 7 minute rowor whatever it was, and now it's
like you see what those boys aredoing at the games.
Now it's insane, but it that'skinda what started the Westside
thing, and then just kind ofcoming back and forth from
there. I lived about 4 and ahalf hours from Westside Barbell

(17:56):
where I'm at now, and, Lou, youknow, he's passed, but Lou, his
entire life since I knew him,was always like, you're always
welcome to train. Visitorsalways like education,
education, so I just kept goingback and forth over and over and
over again to just sit in, youknow, fly on the wall with a
notebook kind of thing, andstarted going out there. And
then Lou recalled who I was fromthe seminar, because I was the

(18:18):
only guy that bought books. So Iwas like, oh, shit.
I didn't know Louie hatedpictures at the time, so
everyone's getting their photosand stuff. And, of course, I got
one too, but, you know, everyoneover the racing get photos of
Lou, and I I'm sitting herethinking, I'm like, man, there's
only a few books on the tablebecause West Side the business
then is nowhere near what it isnow. And so I'm like, Fuck,
dude. I'm not real tough, andI'm probably going to have to
fist fight over these booksbecause I only see 2 or 3 of

(18:40):
them. And obviously, there wasdozens of copies in the boxes
behind the table, but like Isaid, I'm not too sharp, man.
And, sent her to get the booksand, you know, I guess that made
a good impression on Lou becauseLou was a book nerd for sure,
man. And, you know, bringingback that stuff about MMA, it's
like we made the joke when wefirst started talking about just
falling back asswards into coolscenarios. We're we're at the

(19:02):
fights. Our dude is fighting. Ican't remember which card it
was, but it was one of the JohnJones cards, and so our buddy
was co main.
And Dana White used to do thebehind the scenes video with his
iPhone, and everyone was justleaving the sauna and our dude
had a Westside hoodie on whichwasn't a sponsorship or
anything. It was a sponsorshipor anything. It was just, man,
dude gets out of the sauna, youjust wrap him in a sweat suit so

(19:23):
the heat stays. And I mean, Idon't I don't know what it's
like in your neck of the woods,but every gym bro has or should
have a Westside barbell hoodie.Like that's just the way the
world works.
And so, you know, like I said, Imean, it was this fast, man, of
of our guy walking across thescreen leaving the sauna, and
Westside put up this huge poston Facebook about, you know,
who's this, what's this? Becauseback then there was no map.

(19:45):
There was no roadmap for MMA andstrength conditioning at least.
I never fought in the UFC oranything like that. But it
seemed the writing was on thewall that this whole system that
is West Side Barbell makes a lotof sense for fighting.
And we figured some stuff outthat worked for our guy at the
time, and that's kind of whatgot us on the radar because I'd

(20:05):
reach back out after seeing thatpost because we'd be able to
report with some of the guysover the years. This was 'nine
from the seminar to about 2012when that video was taken, and
we just figured out a way totrain using the methods for MMA,
but Lou loved fighting of allsorts, you know. And we sent a
note like, Hey, man. I saw thepost. This is what we're talking

(20:27):
about.
There's our guys in the UFC, andyou have to think back then,
everybody had the nextheavyweight champ, the next
this, because this thing was sonew to the world that it's like,
no, when we say our dude's inthe UFC, he's legitimately in
that lead, man, so we're notembellishing the success of our
athletes. And, again, it's theirsuccess, we just basically count

(20:48):
to 10 for them and run astopwatch as a strength coach.
But that caused Lou to bring usout to be like, alright, let's
see who these people are. Andthen Lou connected the red wire.
He's like, oh, you're the guyfrom the seminar that's been
coming out here.
I'm like, yeah. Like, this isour dude we were telling you
about. They're like, okay, cool.And then Lou and Tom Berry, who,
you know, Irish Tom, who'srunning the show now out there
since Lou's passed, They beatthe unholy crap out of us. You

(21:09):
know, we drove 4 and a half, 5hours out there, and it was like
we got out of the car.
Of course, we were a little bitlate because that's just the way
the world works. It's liketrying to make a good first
impression, show up 15 minuteslate. Just immediate, like,
right to like physical hazing.But it was I mean, it was
awesome. It wasn't like youknow, it wasn't just being a
jerk for the sake of being ajerk.
It was like, we're gonna reallysee what these dudes have
because it's it's no joke there,like, inside the walls of West

(21:32):
Side Barbell regardless of whatera. And so, you know, no matter
what, it's, you know, from whatI'm experiencing around being
around some of you dudes, it'sthe same thing of like, if
you're good at something,they're just gonna find a way to
make you bad at it. No matterwhat you do at some point in
your life, you know, it's not aforever lifestyle. And so it's
basically a vetting process tosee if these guys are kinda, you
know, pusses or whatnot. And sowe got our initial round out of

(21:55):
the way, and then Tom and Ibelieve Matt was there, Matt
Brown.
You know, a handful of fighterswere training in the gym there
at the time as well. They wentoff to go do whatever it is they
did that did not lookcomfortable. And I went and
lifted weights with Lou and likeyou got to balance not being a
puss and also answer a millionquestions from God knows what
about physics to kinesiology tothis, that, and the other. And

(22:17):
while you're getting the hellbeat out of you by, you know,
the godfather of all this stuff,we just got in the car and went
home after lunch and then gothome to an email of basically,
you know, you work here now. Wedon't know what you're going to
do, but you're here.
And, you know, it's like, okay,we said more smart things than
stupid things apparently. Andthen over the course of the next
year or 2, our guy ended upfighting for a title in the UFC,

(22:39):
another John Jones card, sosomehow just got to send that
dude a thank you card apparentlysomeday. But, you know, we got
our dude to the the highestlevels. Didn't go his way,
unfortunately. But, you know,performed well.
Everything went well, and wewere working in the business of
Westside Barbell, trainingathletes, running my gym, and
the whole time being a cop. Andthen something had to give after

(22:59):
all those years of trying to doeverything all the time. So
talked to my wife, and, youknow, she said, Why don't we
button up the law enforcementand you go full time at
Westside, which was an optionthat was presented to me, and
that kinda separated me from lawenforcement at the end of 2014.
And, you know, it was a greatdepartment. I try to speak
There's a lot of bad just likemilitary, there's a lot of
shitheads, but there's a lot ofworld class people there as

(23:20):
well.
And it was a wealth ofexperience I'm grateful for. But
they kept me on payroll throughvacation and comp time and all
that stuff for a little while soI could transition to full
civilian life versus quasipolice ish. It gets weird there.
And then that's what led to mefull time at Westside Barbell
and then fell in on the businessside of things and education,
and then that just kept growing.And then my gym here kind of

(23:44):
turned into the outpost, andthen it's just been kind of a
version of that ever since, forlack of a better term.

Sam (23:50):
Let's maybe zoom out for those who don't know what
website is and who Lou is. And,if you can give, like, a brief
overview of those 2 and then howyou fit conjugate tactical into
that whole framework. Let's gothere.

Jason (24:02):
Yeah. So Westside Bar Bill, you know, the address has
changed. Blue has passed. But,ultimately, no matter where it's
located geographically, that,you know, I'm try I'm a huge
fan. Don't get me wrong.
I am a diehard company guy thatblew put the dog on my leg in
2013, so there's no going backeven if I wanted to. But no
matter where the gym has beenlocated, if it's the current

(24:23):
location, 497 Industry Drive,the spaces that predated to
include Lou's Garage, for most,it's the tip of Drive, the
spaces that predated to includeLou's Garage, for most, it's the
tip of the spear as far as theadvancement of sports science.
And the theme there or theoverarching ethos is that we
follow the conjugate methodwhich is a Soviet based method
of strength training that takesinto account the multitude of

(24:43):
special strengths that are outthere. So, you know, you always
hear the, like, gotta be fastbut strong, gotta have a gas
tank but, you know, alsodeadlift, anything like we kind
of glanced at earlier, but it'sall being executed there
already. So all of this stuff isthere for the taking, and Leo
organized it into what we knowthe conjugate method to be

(25:05):
nowadays or the West SideBarbell methods by combining the
former Soviet Bulgarian work.
This is what stems from theDynamo Club if anyone does go
down this rabbit hole. Buteverything that was being
performed by the EasternEuropean countries prior to the
fall of the Soviet Union andthen combined it with some of
the special exercises work thatwas being done out in Culver

(25:25):
City, California while he was inthe army because Lou was drafted
during the Vietnam era but sentto Germany in lieu of Vietnam.
And so Lou had this what shouldbe consideredin my opinion, and
I should say my opinion, butwhat I consider to be cutting
edge information for the West onhow to train between the guys at
Culver City and then themethodology of the conjugate

(25:46):
system and that morphed intowhat I would consider most to be
the conjugate system or theWestside methods today. And
then, Lou himself is the guythat put it all together, you
know? He he started Westside asa tribute to the Culver City
Barbell Club, named it as such,and it's kind of the less than
ideal portion of Columbus, Ohio.

(26:06):
And then for the actualexistence of it, take all of
those components andingredients, and he's
essentially the driver who'sbeen beta testing and and
creating the advancement ofsports science under the West
Side Barbell methodology for,you know, prior to his passing,
30, 40 years of all of it. So,ultimately, most of us consider

(26:28):
him to be the, I would say, thegodfather of all things strength
in the United States andprobably the world. And then
Westside Barbell is his gymslash company that all of us
have fallen under. And thenConjugate Tactical, it was prior
to taking a name in 2018 when westarted The Conjugate Club,
which is Westside's onlinetraining platform. This really

(26:50):
was just the work that we did.
You know, we vamped up thesystem to train our MMA dudes
here at the gym in Indiana, Andas a byproduct of being prior
military and but, you know, Iwasn't a soft guy or anything,
but had some military experienceand then my law enforcement
experience, the questions thatcome across their plate and

(27:10):
granted, I worked on thebusiness side of the house at
Westside, not a lift or fork.Like, you're not gonna see my
name anywhere near those recordboards out there. But conjugate
tactical before it was namedthat in 2018 due to the
conjugate club was just the workat Westside because all of us
have a collateral duty there andthat you should if you're not an
athlete, you should be aninstructor slash educator,

(27:30):
coach, whatever you wanna callit. And when the questions would
come in, like, well, how do I dothis for law enforcement? And
this, again, predates the thetactical strength and
conditioning stuff that's outnow.
It was like, oh, man. Well,like, here's what we do to train
our guys. And just, again,falling back asswards into it,
our dudes that we're fighting,that's 80%, you know, 80 20

(27:51):
rule. But 80% of what a majorityof the the whether it's a
special operator, big mill, lawenforcement fire, you know, this
first responder space, the theoutside of the intensity and the
techniques of fighting, this isa very similar demand series of
demands that these folks need,and so we started organizing
training and it would fall on myplate to answer those questions
or travel to speak to thosegroups or departments, units,

(28:14):
etcetera. And then, you know,when we released The Conjugate
Club, Tom Berry, like I said,he's a fellow that's running the
show now.
He was lose number 2 for yearsyears years, and now he's the
operator of of West SideBarbell. But my section of The
Conjugate Club was tactical, andI was like, okay. And so we
started trying to organize ourworkouts for the masses, you
know, and that presentschallenges and whatnot, but it

(28:36):
started to get legs underneathit. And it's like, oh, shit.
Well, we go to great lengths tohide my gym locally here in
Indiana because we don't reallywanna deal with a whole lot of
people.
And so it makes no sense to runa company we're trying to hide
and then expand into thisexistence of conjugate tactical,
so we morphed the company andthat's really how it was
launched. And once it seemedlike a good idea, like any good

(28:59):
friend, and I love Tom to death,he's a good human being and
considered man like a brother, Idid what anyone would do and
trademark and copyrightconjugate tactical for myself so
that he can't have it. Butthat's, I mean, again, short
answer made long, that's the thegist of how everything kinda
came to be is this is just thework we've always done. But when
it took a name, it really kindof it became a thing. And now

(29:22):
that we've got a team of people,we've got our accounts and units
that we work for, the publicside of what we do as well, it's
like, oh, now we've now we'vegot a real organization that
needs to be tended to.
And so now it's, you know, nowit's treated as a a full blown
business entity versus just astyle of training.

Sam (29:40):
To show my bias, I do conjugate tactical, and I've
done a lot of programs over theyears. And when I got out of the
military like you, my knees, myback, my hips just fucked. And,
I still wanted to go hard. Istill wanted to go all out in
the gym just to feel that andstill feel alive. And most
programs, more cross finishoriented would just would crush
me for too long.

(30:01):
When I started doing yours,there's maximal effort
throughout the program. Mhmm.But for some reason, I started
feeling better.

Jason (30:07):
That's awesome.

Sam (30:08):
And got stronger. And, I mean, just what what is the
magic built in the program thatallows you to go max effort,
dynamic effort, repetitiveeffort, and then still feel
better at the end of the day?

Jason (30:19):
So there's there's noI wouldn't say magic necessarily,
there's just an understanding.If I had any hobbies or
interests in life whatsoeveroutside of just doing gym stuff,
it probably wouldn't exist. Butthe the before we get into any
of that, the the statement Ialways like to preface all of
that with is that if any of thisworks for you, the thumbs up or

(30:40):
the tip of the cap goes up thefood chain to the legacy of
Louie Simmons and West SideBarbell. And if it doesn't work
for you, it's because Idelivered a shitty adaptation of
it. So it's taking thecomponents, and granted at
Westside Barbell, we're knownfor power lifting and all the
crazy stuff.
Like if, you know, the the 3minutes in that bigger, faster,
stronger documentary from backin the day, That predates me,

(31:03):
but then there's the newdocumentary. There's all kinds
of stuff going on. The powerlifting side is is, honestly,
that's the the publicperception. That's the the
little peak that everyone sees,and the the base underneath it
is decades decades of research,sports science applied to the
scientific method, trial anderror, cutting and pasting,

(31:23):
problem solving, whatever termyou wanna use. So we just did a
lot of that.
And like I said, we've gottenreally lucky with what we
believed pro MMA fighters at theWEC, UFC level needed back in
2008, 2009 timeframe and builtupon that. And so to actually
answer your question, the firstcomponent is understanding the

(31:46):
demand. So, again, I've workedwith dudes like you and some,
you know, guys like you thatit's like, okay, those demands
are much more intense, butthey're not all that different
from, you know, a differentprofession or a different style
of this. So it's like, okay.Well, we pair up that demand.
IE, you know, in our space,maybe it's running a mile or

(32:07):
clearing rooms or bounding orany number of, you know, you
throw on your American flagtough guy shirt or whatever all
that stuff is. You know? It'slike okay well each one of those
demands carries with it data.It's like okay well at what
speed is your heart rate whileyou're performing task a or at
what speed is this weightmoving. It doesn't really matter
if it's a barbell or a humanbeing or, you know, I always use

(32:30):
the In our seminars, I alwaysuse the example of law
enforcement in that, you know,we always prepare for doomsday,
the wolf, all that cool stuff.
There's And yeah, it's very,very important. You should
shoot, fight, and do all thosethings to make sure you're taken
care of because there are goodpolice officers out there. Not
all of them are bad, but thereare bad ones. So it's like,
okay, all those things are very,very important. But I would say
a majority of law enforcementinjuriesand there's statistical

(32:52):
data all over the place, we workwith the academy here, but
injuries come from dragging deaddeer off the highway, pushing a
disabled vehicle off to theshoulder, not always getting
shot or getting the hell beatout of you and things like that.
So it's like, okay, there's adegree of durability and
resilience. Well, how do we dothat? The repetition method. You
know, if you're pushing thatvehicle and your heart rate

(33:13):
spikes through the roof and it'smoving at point 3 to point 5
meters per second or less,you're displaying some degree of
maximal strength that may bekind of anecdotal, admittedly.
But it's like, okay, verystrong, have a gas tank, and be
able to move quickly because,you know, then you flip back to
the doomsday stuff of lawenforcement.
It's like, man, you just gotdone pushing a vehicle, and 30

(33:34):
minutes later, you're fighting acrackhead. You don't know what's
gonna happen. So that idea ofreadiness really kind of
appeared very, very appealing tous. And, you know, to kinda
predate all of it going back tothe very beginning of law
enforcement at one of the SWATconferences, and I swear there's
a purpose behind this. I'msorry.
But at the very beginning of mylaw enforcement career, I went
to a SWAT conference here inIndiana, and there was a a dude

(33:56):
named Peter Blaber was the guestspeaker, and he'd released a
book called The Mission to Menand Me.

Sam (34:01):
Delta Force. Yeah.

Jason (34:02):
Yeah. Yeah, dude. Got to meet this guy, listen to him
talk, and we talk about theexamples of, like, great
leadership, military, poorleadership, all that stuff. Put
that in the same audience of oflaw enforcement officers
listening to this dude speakand, like, KAG's pretty cool,
man. Like, that's a pretty coolgroup.
You know? I I, obviously, I'dnever worked there or, you know,
I've met some of the dudes whohave and learned a lot from guys

(34:24):
directly to indirectly who'vefollowed different paths. But
it's like, man, this is a prettyintelligent dude. He's got some
great things to say, and there'sSWAT cops. Good cops and bad
cops, don't get me wrong, acrossnumerous departments are, you
know, the the I always call itthe, you don't want me to see
red bro, that crowd.
It's like, I feel like we shouldbe listening to the guy who ran

(34:46):
Delta. But anyway, he had achapter on there, a chapter in
his book which was world classtitled Don't Plan, Prepare. So
the idea of preparedness iswhere I was going with that was
rooted in early inadvertently byattending this conference. And
it was like, well, that's whatwe need the west side system
for, this conjugate method foris to prepare these bodies, and

(35:07):
we did it for MMA by building agreat base for the jujitsu
coach, the striking coach, theMMA coach to work with. And
then, you know, that evolvedinto tactical of, well, well,
yeah, I don't I don't know howto be a SEAL, but the dudes
we've met, it seems like we needto be able to bash through
doors, do the job, maintainendurance, all the same demands.

(35:27):
They're just flavored relativelydifferently across profession,
and then with varying levels ofintensity, and I would call it
practicality, and that like lawenforcement, for example. I
would say one of the most tamethings you could do is probably
be the number 2 on a caninetrack. So the dog handler is
doing his thing. He's just gottahave a second body with him to

(35:49):
do cop stuff if it's needed. Andit's like, oh, you're just
basically walking.
That's zone 2, zone 3 cardiodepending on the terrain and the
temperature outside. But then,you know, and I was a police
officer from 09 to to early2015. That was the era of those
dudes doing those bath saltthings. So it's like we went for
a nice walk in the woods, andnow we're fighting a dude roped

(36:10):
out of his mind on bath salts.So you talk about sliding scale
of intensity, it's like, well,that's the sauce.
It's like, well, how do wemanage that? And, again, it's
all in the context of the WestSide methods of ensuring the
intensity ebbs and flowsbecause, you know, we'll make
this joke with some of the guyson our instructor team as well
who follow the path that youguys did of like, man, I never

(36:32):
went to BUDS. You know, one ofthe boys took me around the
campus there to tour everything.It was amazing, you know, great
experience because I didn't haveto do the things you guys did.

Sam (36:40):
You could smell the vomit.

Jason (36:41):
Yeah. It seems like a pretty unhappy place. But it's
like, man, if you use that forexample and again, this is my
interpretation. I don't knowwhat I don't know. But it's like
that was a few months of yourlife, not your entire career.
And physical training or thepursuit of this athletic
readiness takes a similar themein that not everything needs to

(37:03):
be a death festival, murder,kill, destroy yourself, but at
some point, longevity becomesquite appealing and the demands
change, or even the goals changethroughout the career. And it's
like, well, training shouldmirror that. You know, it
doesn't necessarily be thespecificity of working with a
100 meter sprinter or a hurdleror anything like that. But if

(37:23):
you kind of balance Lou'sdevelopment of the West Side
system against that one chapterin Peter Blaber's book about
prepare, don't plan, that reallythat was the catalyst for
Westside Barbell to to launchthe tactical program, and then
it's evolved into our our standalone company now for the last 6
years, give or take.

Sam (37:45):
When you think about longevity, a lot of people would
hear max effort, so, like, a 3rep max back squat or a 1 rep
max deadlift as being notlongevity. Is there an age cap
on your programs, or do youthink that that is longevity
that a a 60 year old man who iswith a moderate weightlifting
background could jump into thisprogram?

Jason (38:03):
I I would say yes without being just like a a generic
company guy that we've got everyanswer you could ever need. It
really is, like, with thecontext, but that's where, you
know, you've gotta read. Like,YouTube, all this stuff, but at
Westside Man, like, Lou told usto read books, so we read books.
And then you reread the booksnumerous times and interpret it
differently. You read them indifferent orders, and the data
is interpreted differently.

(38:24):
You know? But if you look at theconcept of max effort, you know,
or the max effort method per se,there's the lift itself
depending on what force velocitycurve you read, what tribe you
believe in, that kind of stuff,ultimately, we've got a barbell
moving at 0.3 to 0.5 meters persecond or slower against
external load, which would bethe plates on the bar. So if you

(38:46):
don't get caught upand that'swhy I love what we do with
maturing adults, you know, ourprivate work is we don't really
have a lot of 19 year old hardcharters. We got dudes that went
through that phase, they wannastay in the game. But when it
comes to the actual maximallifts themselves, it's culture
based.
And the reason I say that is ifyour entire life is smelling

(39:10):
salts, chalks, slapping eachother, death metal, dude, you're
gonna fizzle out quick. But ifyou use the actual meat and
potatoes of the method, thatcontraction simultaneously
trains the central nervoussystem and provides a very
strong signal to the musculatureneeded to lift that barbell at
0.3 to 0.5 meters per second orslower. So if you resist the

(39:31):
urge to compare yourself toworld record holders, and just I
call it an AA comparison versusan AB comparison, or apples to
oranges, apples to apples,whatever analogy you wanna use.
It really doesn't matter ifyou're 75 years old lifting £50,
or 25 years old lifting 500 or700, £800, whatever these guys
are doing nowadays, because themethod is the parameters you

(39:54):
follow to lift the barbell at aspecified speed. And then the
way we organize it in tacticaland there's a lot of great
coaches out there inorganizations and whatnot.
But the way we organize it intactical is just kinda based off
of experience, man. Like, youknow, if if you even without the
the pistols and uniforms ofmilitary and law enforcement,
even at Westside, when we go weused to travel and do the

(40:16):
seminars all the time, it waslike max effort Monday. No
matter what, if if it's a onerep max deadlift on the board,
we're doing it. And this is,again, my gym in Indiana, not
Westside proper. That's atotally different monster.
But it was like after 14, 18hours in a truck, come back and
try to lift heavy as possible,it almost always has resulted in

(40:36):
a minor injury. So it's like,okay, well, we'll dial that back
to a heavy set of 3 or a heavyset of 5 or maybe just pull a
sled. It's like, okay, there'sall these variables that throw
you away from optimal. And aslong as you take that into
account and train, I would say,a culture based training ethos
around it's okay to usediscretion and common sense of

(40:57):
like if you're not at your bestthat day, don't push yourself to
the limit. And that cantranscend any age or capacity in
regard to this stuff.
But if you're training under anethos or in a culture that is no
excuses, whatever it is, theremay not be excuses, yeah,
excuses are not okay. But theremight be very great reasons why
that individual shouldn't run a200 meter sprint on pavement

(41:20):
with a 50 pound rock sack. Youknow, and taking that into
account with, again, I onlyspent 5 years and change in the
military, and I spent just aboutthe same amount of time in law
enforcement. So I don't knoweverything, but our team's got a
wealth of experience. And itappears that giving guys the
green light to take care ofthemselves, it's all that's
really missing from a lot ofgreat organizations.

(41:42):
And when we organize ourtraining, it's not necessarily
forthere's nothing wrong. Youcan train with us however you
want. Like I'm not cool enoughto tell people no. But if you're
looking for the theatrical sideor the entertainment side, man,
we don't need to yell at you. Wedon't need to haze you and
insult you if you miss a timestandard or any of that stuff.
It's like, man, I couldmyprimary training partner was a

(42:05):
UFC bantamweight for 12 or 13years in a weight room, and I
could out deadlift him. And thenwhen we hit the grappling mats
or, God forbid, put on thegloves, which was a mistake I
made one time with that fellow,you realize that this stuff is
not the end all be all foreverything. It's a portion of a
formula that equates either anoperator, a soldier, a Marine, a

(42:27):
police officer, a fireman. Yourstrength conditioning is a base
to build from, not the end all,be all. But admittedly, that
does not sell t shirts, so Ithink that that's where I think
it's where a part of adisconnect is.

Sam (42:39):
From what I remember is you I think you have 4 different
programs under the contact oftactical info. You got the
basic, the dorker, the engine,and I think downrange.

Jason (42:49):
Yeah.

Sam (42:49):
Can you kinda give a brief overview of those 4 different
ones for people who might lookinto it?

Jason (42:53):
Yeah. So first off, naming them goes to our our
kettlebell instructor and myright hand man, the dude named
Zach. We kinda stole them fromCrossFit. He was the kettlebell
subject matter expert, him andJeff Martone. But he's told me
that calling things likeendurance based programming,
he's like, people don't likethat.
So the names the the credit ofthe names go to Zach. But basic
program is basically how wetrain in the gym here. There's

(43:16):
all all the programs have anemphasis in strength. Maximal
strength is the cornerstone ofwhat we do, unlike we talk.
There's a it's a okay to let theintensity ebb and flow.
Like, I love when people setPRs, but no one's gonna pay you
$500 for bumping your bench up$5, at least not in this gym. So
every program has an emphasis onthat strength component if for

(43:37):
no other reason, injuryprevention. But basic is what we
run-in the gym here since 2009,and it's just evolved into the
Westside methodology. It's it'sall we know now. So front, back,
top, bottom, push, pull, generalphysical preparedness with an
emphasis on strength as we allage in the gym here.
You know, some of our folks havebeen in this gym for over 15

(43:58):
years, so they've gone fromtheir thirties to their fifties
with us, and we're just learningall along the way. And then when
you go to engine, it's a degreeof that, you know, a good main
movement typically brought to aheavy set of 2 or 3 more so than
always maxing out, but the workbecomes a little bit more driven
towards the endurance athlete.And it doesn't have to

(44:19):
necessarily be a formaltriathlon or anything like that.
And I know the the hybridathlete is coming back now, the
power lifting and marathonrunning depending on where
you're at in the year, andthat's a wonderful expression of
physicality as well. But for themost part, engine is designed
for folks who like the heavybreathing more than the
grunting, the grunting thatcomes with heavy weight lifting.
It's very kettlebell andcalisthenic based, So there's

(44:41):
not as much variety in what wedo as other institutions out
there, and it's just based onthe respect of our athletes in
that like, dude, I'mprofessional gym bro. And as
soon as I get around a highlevel grappler, everything that
I'm good at is irrelevant withyour best friend sitting on your
chest reminding you how terribleyou are at grappling. So a lot
of the engine work goes towardsthe endurance guys and the

(45:04):
strength the basic takes care ofthe general population. And then
door kicker is for the folksthat are kinda like, No, dude.
That's all fine and dandy, but Ilike being big, explosive, and
strong even at the expense of agas tank.
And a lot of that work is theidea ofwhat one of the guys said
it best is like, Dude, I usethis in case I need to clear an

(45:25):
apartment building. And thisgoes back several years ago when
there were still a lot of a lotof raiding and working overseas.
Guys wanted to be in really goodshape because you might take
down 15, 20, 60 doors in a day.And again, very similar to
fighting, but if you take awaythe danger of violence and the
skill set, it's just work youknow and that's not to

(45:46):
disrespect jiu jitsu strikingany of it. But if we get rid of
the actual flavor of the theeffort, it's just ultimately
work.
You know? So we wanna make surethat we train that work in a in
a capacity that's befitting theathlete executing the training.
So be very strong with anemphasis on recovering faster.

(46:07):
Be very explosive because Idon't need a 1,000 pound
squatter who can't get out ofthe way of a right hook, you
know? And then downrange isreally justI don't wanna
diminish it, but it's really abetter than nothing option if
you don't have access to a fullgym.
As a professional gym bro, Iwould rather get you out of the
weight room in 45 minutes,recovered and onto the mats or

(46:30):
back to the range in the shoothouse, doing any number of of
training, any number of skillsets under other subject matter
experts than pretending theweight room is everything
because it's not. It's thefoundation of everything so that
your instructors of otherdisciplines can build a better
athlete or shooter or whateverit is. But downrange ultimately
takes a little bit ofeverything, but is understanding

(46:52):
that, like, you have access to acouple kettlebells. You know,
gravity is always present so wecan do calisthenics. And a
barbell at this in 2025, abarbell, some plates and a squat
rack or a squat stands, thoseare pretty readily available no
matter where you're out on theplanet.

Sam (47:09):
I always wondered this. What are your thoughts on zone 5
training, like, greater than 90%max heart rate? Mhmm. How often
would you want that to be in aprogram ideally?

Jason (47:17):
So we we answer that in the seminar a lot, and I always
make the joke that we're notgonna pay a university 18 to
$22,000 to tell us this, so Idon't have a college or a
university study to prove it.But having trained, excuse me,
been on a team that trained UFClevel title contenders in fight

(47:38):
camp, which is a window of 6 to8 weeks leading up to a fight,
we have that individual creatingworkouts 2 to 4 times a week
depending on the level they'reat that encourages zone 5 for 3
5 minute rounds or 5 5 minuterounds 2 or 3 times ahead of a
title fight. So 6 to 8 weeks,folks that need it would be on a

(48:01):
zone 5 sort of deep end of thepool. We call them hard hitter
workouts 2 to 4 times a week.Average it out, call it 3 times
a week in fight camp for the itis, but it's it's for a very
short period of time, and it'sfor a very specified reason.
Outside of that, 1 to 3 times amonth or maybe once a week going

(48:22):
into that deep end of the poolor the darkness, whatever you
wanna call it, that zone 5, isfor us, man, it's proven to be
more more than enough for dudesfrom SOCOM down to Road Cops
and, you know, veterans of bothof those spaces or just general
population. It's not a not acondescending term. You know,
you guys it's you guys havegiven us some of the coolest

(48:43):
coins on the shelf. Don't get mewrong. But helping, you know,
it's still just as excitingafter 17 years of doing that.
You know, 16 years almost ofrunning the gym and then years
prior, but watching a gal gether first pull up, all those
things are still just asexciting. So it's like, yeah,
all that stuff, the generalpopulation is not a
condescending term, but ifthere's no reason to live in
zone 5, you don't have to gothere.

Sam (49:06):
Let's pivot more to you as a as a coach. So you you entered
this at a really unique time, Ithink, in in, like, training
history where you saw the unionof, Westside and their strength
method with CrossFit, withmilitary getting involved, law
enforcement getting involved,and then it is starting to kind
of branch out on its own againin many different directions.

(49:27):
What maybe are some of the main,like, positives you've taken
from all these differentcommunities along the way from,
like, a coach's perspective?

Jason (49:35):
I mean, I would say from the the lens, you know, the the
coach's perspective, CrossFitwas wonderful. I went to my
level 1 in, I think, the fall of07. So I'd just gotten out of
the military. You know, we wereoverseas, and the cool guy units
were doing it. So my dumbass waslike, well, you guys are cool.
I'll do that. You know,everything I was doing was
terrible and wrong in hindsight,but it seemed cool. Got tired.

(49:58):
So I went to the my level 1 inBlauer Tactical in Virginia
Beach. So, your guys' backyard.
So I met some dudes down therethat kind of gave us some good
information and things. And as,again, the lens to look through
as a strength coach, when itcomes to I would say the
importance of culture, I leftCrossFit in 2010, so I don't

(50:18):
know what I don't know, butwe're still in and out of that
space with athletes and friends.But at that moment in time,
culture, I don't think there'smy window of time in CrossFit, I
don't think there was a betterinstitution as far as creating
an importance on trainingculture and ethos than that era
of CrossFit. Because you thinkabout it, man, it was like

(50:39):
everything you need is allencompassing or it's encased
within its own environment. Andyeah, you can put a pessimistic
spin on anything, but it waslike, dude, these guys are
justyou got Dev Guru guystelling morbidly obese human
beings that it's okay to walkthis 5 k instead of running it
in 16 minutes, you know?
And I said, well, that's prettyneat. So the idea of layering in

(51:02):
humility, competence, andscalability into a training
culture that just people wannalift weights and have a good
time, there's no one better onthe planet than that era of
CrossFit. And that led into thespecialty courses where I found
Westside. And when it comes to Iwould say determination, the

(51:23):
solution or problem solving inregard to building strength,
There's no one better on thatfront than Westside Barbell
because anyone who rivalsWestsideand again, I'm biased as
all hell. I'm not going anywhereelse.
I'll burn my gym down and stopweights before I speak ill of
Westside Barbell because of allthey've done for me. But I truly
believe in what we do. But whenit comes to creating strength

(51:45):
and developing sports science,there's no one better at it than
us. And by us, I mean, theinstitution in the history of
Westside Barbell. Anyone saysthat they are, they can't.
Everyone that's doing this hasbeen built by Louie Simmons in
one way, shape, or form. Butwhen it comes to staying in your
lane and being consistent inwhat you do, I would still have
to say that Jim Jones isprobably the best at it because

(52:07):
they've never deviated fromwhere they were prior to the
movie 300 to where they are asof, what's today, 10th? From I
found them prior to 300 whenthat whole thing came out, the
Spartan movie now, and to wherethey're at now, it's damn near
the same institution withevolution in it, you know?
Things get better over thecourse of 20 years. But their

(52:30):
ethos, their mindset, theirapproach to training is
identical minus improvement towhat it was years ago.
So when it comes to that vein,it's like, well, that's another
important box too is evolutionis important, but you don't have
to 90 degree pivot based onwhat's trending, and I don't
think that they ever have. Ihope and I truly believe that we
do a good job of staying in ourrole as athletes and coaches and

(52:54):
not overstepping our bounds intoall the other areas of
physicality that whether it's aspecial operator, a road cop, or
you name it, we've got your backon strength and that's it.

Sam (53:05):
I I dig it. We we used Jim Jones early in the back in the
Mark Twain days when I was inthe team, their operator fitness
program, a lot of good stuff.Pivoting a little bit. I I mean,
let's dive into motivation realquick because I I learned in
buzz and throughout later onthat some people when they do
this, anything, a workoutprogram, something in the

(53:27):
operator world, they're gonna doit to the point where they'll
literally almost die trying todo it well. Their heart, mind,
and fall into it.
And then some people, they justdon't give a fuck. Like, if you
wanna have an early morningworkout, someone's gonna say
they'll be there the nightbefore, they're gonna cancel on
you. As a coach, have you founda way to get people to give a
damn, or is there literally justan intangible in some people

(53:49):
that they're just gonna be thereno matter what and some people
aren't?

Jason (53:52):
At risk of sounding a politician where instead of
answering your question, I justgo off on a tangent, which I
unintentionally do. I don'twanna do it on purpose. But in
regards to motivation, it's it'sthere's several approaches, I
believe. Ensuring that whensomeone starts with us or, you
know, whether it's in person,remotely, or just someone we've
met in passing is to encouragethat person, and that's where

(54:15):
I'm huge on culture of like allthe stuff has to make sense,
man. You know, like, be in themilitary.
Like, when you get to unblouseyour boots and walk outside the
wire, it's like, this is awesomeversus having to do all the
rules, you know? But it's likethe culture thing is huge. And
so it's like, okay, well, weencourage everyone to understand
and appreciate that you have tohave a realistic expectation of

(54:39):
the outcomes based on theinputs. And it's like, man, if
you don't using fighting, forexample, like if you're not
fighting in the UFC, we probablydon't have to train full time
like a guy who is. And socreating that sort of permission
slip, for lack of a better term,that it's okay to train
realistically within your goalsand availability, that's kind of

(55:01):
step 1 is that it's okay ifyou're not as big of a monster
as this dude over here orkilling it like she is over
here.
You're getting started, it'scool. But the main thing is to
focus. For us, our biggestmission is longevity. And we
tell them, like, man, if you areif you are in this to just
destroy yourself every day,you're not gonna last. And then
having a doubting Thomas is awonderful thing.

(55:23):
You know, someone who's like, Ihad your mindset, beat the hell
out of myself, I pumped thebrakes, and you know, like I
said, the intensity intensityhas to ebb and flow. So we try
to really make that, you know,it's it's repeated, it's said
out loud, it's mentionednumerous times in our seminars,
our work, in our gym, and thewriting we do online as well
that it's like, man, motivationis great, but if you're relying

(55:43):
on smelling salts, death metal,slapping each other every Monday
when we're gonna deadlift, it'slike, dude, that's not gonna
last, man. I don't care whatyou're supplementing with or
anything like that. You justcan't stay on a razor's edge
247. So, admittedly, we've beenso fortunate with some of our
athletes and experiences thatwe've had that, you know, we can

(56:04):
point you at the guy who used tothink that way.
And then when he started pumpingthe brakes on the crazy, his
athletic progress started to tomove forward. Things started to
get better. When it comes tomotivation and obligation, it's
the it's the the teamworkapproach of, you know, for the
MMA stuff we did. I don't haveany other pro athletes. I avoid
them at all costs now.
But it's like, for us, our ourapproach to MMA was it's a team

(56:27):
sport with 1 competitor. Andit's like, man, when we're when
we're doing our training, I I'vegot nothing to offer on the
technique side, but if someone'sjust gotta get beat on because
that's part of the trainingsession, then I got about £245
of of meat for you to shoulderwhile you're strapped into the
belt slot and beat the hell outof. I got you. So for us, we've
always placed a great emphasison obligation to the team

(56:48):
regardless of what that lookslike. Whatever this group or
this team or this unit you'reinvolved with is like, man, like
you said, if we're training at 5AM and you wake up and that
alarm clock, the sleepy's gotyou, you're not going, well, you
need to know that you let yourteammates down.
And if we've got this thingmoving well and the culture has
to be tended to 247, it's likeanything else, you gotta

(57:09):
constantly be mindful of it.It's like, dude, when someone
truly does get booted out or wedon't want you around anymore
and it shows consequences tothose that remain, it's like,
okay. Like, this is this issomething of substance and we
want to preserve it. I thinkthat that overdoes motivation
because everyone's gonna havegood day, bad day. Don't like, I
don't care if you're JasonBourne, man.
Like, everyone's gonna have anoff day. But if you show up for

(57:32):
the everybody that you trainwith, your training partners,
man, that's gonna that's gonnaoutweigh that that self driven
motivation.

Sam (57:39):
What about, I guess, last major question before we finish
up with a lightning round? Whatis maybe one thing you learned
as a coach in all these yearsthat is, I guess, most
fundamental to your craft thatmaybe would apply to, other
people's craft, whether whetherin business or military or sales
or leadership or whatever?

Jason (57:57):
Yeah. I would say is hear everybody, but only listen to a
select few. And I I don't meanthat in an arrogant way, but,
you know, there's that secretgovernment organization of they
say yeah. I'll put the tinfoilhat on, but, you know, advice is
free, man. People can give itaway, and it's it's not I I'm
yet to meet anybody that I knowfor a fact gave me bad advice

(58:20):
intentionally just to hurt me.
You know? But I've been given alot of bad advice inadvertently.
And when I'm young and naive,it's it's it's terrifying back
then. Like looking back of,like, man, we had like, we used
to choose between lunch anddinner because we knew we
weren't having both. Andsomeone's telling me I gotta I
gotta pay for this.
I gotta sign up for that. Youhave to have this. So it became

(58:41):
clear of like, you know, I'm nottough enough or cool enough to
be a dick to anybody. So I'malways gonna nod and try and be
polite, and I truly try my verybest when I'm when I'm, you
know, Jason, the individual in aconversation or a conference or
anything. I really try my bestto truly approach this with an
open notebook and a pen and aclear slate.

(59:02):
And I'm not gonna interrupt youor call you an idiot because
that's just notwe don't do that,you know? And it's like, okay, I
heard everything you said, butI'm only listening to a few
people. It's like when it comesto business advice, man, do you
own a business? That's not anend all be all. Not everything
has to be an absolute.
But if you're firing offbusiness advice because you

(59:24):
watch Shark Tank, I'm going tobe the one that pays the price.
Or the small business owner, Ishould say, is going to be the
one that pays that price becauseyou projected this concept as an
absolute truth and I just lost$500 by signing up for
something. So that would be theblanket all encompassingif I
have to give anything to howevermany people hear this that I've

(59:44):
never even met is to heareverybody out of kindness and
opportunity but only listen to aselect bit of information that
comes across your plate becausethis can be overwhelming.

Sam (59:54):
Let's wrap it up with a couple quick ones. What do you
do to prime yourself for theday?

Jason (01:00:00):
Man, it's there are things I can control. So I note
my alarm clock. I I try to seton I have a coffee date with my
buddy, Scott, a couple times aweek. So we get up and go to the
same Starbucks at 4:30 when theyopen. So if that day goes, I
know my alarms clock is set for341, which there's no real
reason other than I know if Ihit snooze, that gets me up at

(01:00:21):
3:50 on the dot because thesnooze only lasts 9 minutes on
an iPhone.

Sam (01:00:24):
If you're getting a 341, when do you go to bed?

Jason (01:00:26):
Oh, man. I'm 41, dude. I go to bed at 8:30, 9 o'clock
now.

Sam (01:00:29):
Sometimes So you're getting, like, a solid 7, 8
hours a night.

Jason (01:00:32):
Yeah. I'm still going for it. Like, the the chapter of me,
like, getting 2 hours, 4 hour,like, I had to button that. I
got sick as all hell last year.So it's been a lot slower
approach to staying alive now.
So I've got my routine on when II don't set an alarm Tuesday or
Thursday or Sunday. So I justget up when I get up and that
gives me a little bit offreedom, you know? But if we
have coffee date, I set my alarmat a specific time. And if we

(01:00:55):
don't have the mandate, then Istill set my alarm at a very
specific time because I like tocome down here to my gym Monday,
Wednesday, Friday for the 5:30group. And these are the folks
we've again, we've all agedtogether.
Most of them have been heresince the day we opened, if not
prior, and it's just a greatgroup of human beings. But on
those days, my alarm is set forthe same time every time, which
is 4:31 because, again, in caseI need to hit the snooze, I have

(01:01:16):
to get up with a 0. More oftenthan that, I'm up well before my
phone, but, you know, I Istopped drinking a while ago.
And so getting up early hasalways been kinda my jam. It's
just so nice now without ahangover.
It's actually enjoyable. But toactually execute, man, it's
coffee, like, absolutely I don'tmind giving up alcohol, but a
world without coffee is one Idon't wanna be in. And then I

(01:01:38):
read. I try to really read everymorning for at least 15 to 20
minutes of whatever is in. Youknow, right now, I'm on Jordan
Peterson's new book, We Wrestle,You Who Wrestle With God, but
pretty much almost alwaysnonfiction, everything from
military history to mindset andbusiness practice, all that kind
of stuff.
So every morning starts withcoffee and book time. The third

(01:01:59):
thing, if we're looking for 3options, is controlling the
alarm clock is kind of athat'snot really a thing, but the
coffee, the book, and thenhonestly just trying to think.
It's about 13 minutes to drivefrom my home to my gym. And
that's one thing I've learned.It's only been probably about a
year or 2 that I've been trulydisciplined enough to stay and
give myself 5, 10, 15 minutes tojust dead silence think about

(01:02:24):
anything.
Because, you know, I in, youknow, I'm not going to try and
turn your podcast into like atherapy couch, but like for me,
I got wrapped up in the providerside of things with the
financial side of as long as I'mworking and saving and investing
the money, it's for the family,then I can justify missing
everything. You know, whetherit's kids games, you name it,

(01:02:44):
you know, family parties gettogethers. Like, it was out of
control for a very long time. Sofor me to take anywhere from,
like, 5 to 15 minutes to get totown where no emails, no music,
no text, no phone calls,nothing. Granted, this is 5
something in the morning, sothere's not a lot of people
awake.
But that's that's the thing thathonestly has changed the most
for me in the recent years. Buttaking 10 or 15 minutes to do

(01:03:06):
nothing but just have like a ina solo think tank, that's been
that's been the biggest changefor me of like realizing how bad
I was fucking up all theseopportunities because I was just
so high strung with thislegitimate addiction to like a
high performance lifestyle oflike how many flights can I take
in a month? How many hours haveI put in? How little sleep did I
get? Like, I had 4 whitemonsters today.

(01:03:28):
Like, I'm gonna live foreverbecause you only had 2. Like, it
it really got for me personally,it really got out of control.
There's the coffee in the bookand just that quiet reflection
time there.

Sam (01:03:38):
Some of the most hardcore guys I know are dedicated
readers, especially in themorning. So, I mean, what what
are, like, a a couple books thatthat have changed your life
along the way?

Jason (01:03:48):
We we've never met. And like I said, I'm not drinking
anymore, but I'll buy I'll stillbuy you a beer or a coffee or
something. But I don't wanna getmy ass beat, but the extreme
ownership, dude, I don't carewhat anyone says. I dig the
Jocko stuff, man. Like, I gotsome buddies that are from your
lineage who bust my balls alittle bit.
But man, a dude introduced me tothat stuff right when my son was

(01:04:09):
born. And the only way to gethim to sleep was driving around
in my man van with him in thecar seat. I must have listened
to the first 50 episodes of hispodcast just driving McDonald's
to McDonald's McDonald's,slugging diet coach, listening
to the podcast, and then, youknow, read the book. Everything
just clicked. It was just rightplace, right time, right chapter
of my life that was like thatthat or that offered that

(01:04:32):
extreme ownership offered a lotof organization, the stuff that
I had going on in my head thatreally didn't make a lot of
sense.
And I was like, man, this thisis just a wonderful thing for
that moment in time. It's it'skind of run its course. I still
love the podcast. I love thebooks. I've got nothing negative
to say.
When I met Jocko, the dude waskind, world class, and 100%
transparent. Like what you seeis what you get, you know? So it

(01:04:54):
was like just an excellentchapter in my life. But that
book, Extreme Ownership and thena couple of follow on ones, I
can't recommend them enough toany grown and women too. But as
far as grown men go or young mentrying to become adults or dads
or anything like that, I thinkthere's tremendous value in
there.
The book we mentioned earlier,The Mission to Men and Me, I
think is absolutely world classwhen it comes to business. A

(01:05:16):
buddy of mine, Curtis, gave me abook last year called
Unreasonable Hospitality, whichis kind of silly, but it's about
a restaurant group and a memberof it who became the CEO of a
huge, you know, thing, but it's3 Michelin Star restaurant in
New York to Smashburger toVegas, all this crazy stuff. But
ultimately, the book, they theycouldn't figure out how to get

(01:05:38):
their 3rd Michelin Star up inNew York until they focused on
everything but the food becausethey couldn't get any better. So
they focused on the customerexperience, the culture,
hospitality, and everything thatgoes with it, and it's really
about going above and beyond.And that's what nudged them
towards the 3rd Michelin star.
And then dude got burned out andultimately started Smashburger,
which is, like, the best thingin any airport ever. But for

(01:06:02):
business, I think that's worldclass. And then, honestly, I'm
I'm hoping without being acornball about it, I really hope
that someday the Bible becomes ahuge part of that list for me,
working on it, just not thereyet. And the one I read last
year that had the biggest impacton me as far as just, like, not
necessarily political thinking,like, I think what I think, but

(01:06:24):
there's a book called TheCoddling of the American Mind.
That I would say in the last 3to 4 months, that's probably
been the biggest, like, jawdropper of a book.
But hearing the thought processof someone self critiquing their
own group of shortcomings andand kind of interpreting how

(01:06:45):
things have kind of gotten ascrazy as they've gotten. It wasI
love that book because it waswritten by a dude who doesn't
think like I do politically, andeverything is just everything is
assessed and communicated purelyobjectively, good, bad, and
everything in between. And Ijust thought it was a really
good book with as superchargedas the country is right now on

(01:07:07):
just having to hate everythingor blindly follow everything.
And I was like, man, this dudeis justwhatever he drank that
morning, it just makes sense tome when he wrote that book. So I
would say that list has beenabsolutely huge.
And then obviously, the WestSide Barbell book of methods is,
for professional reasons, Ithink that's the best strength
training book any human beingcould ever have.

Sam (01:07:27):
Alright. Gus, this was awesome. How can people find you
and follow your work?

Jason (01:07:32):
I gratefully let me come on your podcast, man. It's been
a neat experience. As far asfinding me, if I'm home I'm
either at my house and if I'mnot there, I'm at my gym, which
is just in Chesterton, Indiana1050 Broadway. Like, if you're
ever in the area, everyone'swelcome to train here. If I just
got home from a trip, we chargeyou your drop in fee.

(01:07:52):
If we're in a good mood,probably gonna tell you to keep
it or just grab a coffee for meor something on the way. But
we're always in the gym here inChesterton. Online, I have my
personal Instagram profile, butI don't I don't check it a whole
lot, which is just jj.p.guss.And then our company profile is
conjugate.tactical forInstagram. I check that one

(01:08:14):
regularly and a couple of otherpeople do.
So if anyone sends anything butthere's a couple of different
people that look at thataccount, so be careful. Don't
don't send anything too crazybecause it's not just me reading
it. And then my email is [e-mail].
But our role in the universe istry to help people with their
strength training. So anything,we field a lot of questions

(01:08:36):
every week, so we just try toalways tell people, like, if we
can help you, we always will.
And if we ever can't, man, justout of respect, not arrogance,
we're just gonna tell you nobecause we can't do what's
needed and this stuff is tooimportant. And our, you know,
our our pathway and the thetribes we were part of, that we
can't get in the business ofscrewing people around for a few
bucks or because our ego isforcing us to say yes to things

(01:08:58):
when we really don't know whatwe're doing. So that that would
be the list right there as faras how to get a hold of me or us
on the team because there's alot of guys and gals that are
they're really carrying carryingthe weight of this whole
conjugate tactical thing and andgrowing it into something far
beyond what I ever could. It'sit's a pretty neat again, it
wasn't part of the plan, butit's a pretty neat thing of
what's been happening over thelast couple of years.

Sam (01:09:19):
Gus, really appreciate your time, bro.

Jason (01:09:20):
Oh, dude. Thank you so much, man.

Sam (01:09:22):
That's it for this episode. If you wanna check out more from
the podcast, head to zeroeyes.com/nobell, where you can
see show notes, read more aboutour guests, and suggest guests
or topics of your own. Untilnext time, stay in the fight.
Don't ring the bell.