October 4, 2021 • 27 mins
Shanny talks with Cortney Chaffin, an art historian at UWSP, and Ellen Larson, a PhD candidate at the University of Pittsburgh, about Cai Guo-Qiang. Cai is a Chinese artist renowned for his firework art you have to see to believe. We watched the documentary Sky Ladder, available on Netflix, which documented Cai's effort to complete an art piece he has worked on for decades. We talk about what it takes to create firework art displays, the tension between art and propaganda, and whether seeing his work on film is a sufficient experience. You don't need to know anything about Sky Ladder, or Chinese art, or Cai Guo-Qiang to appreciate our conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shanny Luft (00:08):
Welcome to no cure for curiosity, a podcast to
encourage and promote curiosityin the liberal arts. I am Shanny
luft, a professor of religiousstudies and the Associate Dean
of general education at theUniversity of Wisconsin at
Stevens Point. Today's episodeis about the Chinese artist Cai
Guo-Qiang who is world famousfor his pyrotechnic art pieces.
(00:29):
My guests are Courtney Chaffinand Ellen Larsen. They both
recommended a documentary onNetflix called Sky Ladder: The
Art of Cai Guo-Qiang whichdocuments the artist's
mesmerizing fireworks displaysand his 20 year effort to create
Sky Ladder, which is this imagehe carried for a firework
display that was designed like aladder that climbs hundreds of
(00:49):
feet into the sky. You don'thave to watch Sky Ladder before
listening to this episode, but Ihope our conversation today will
inspire you to check it out. Inthe podcast, we talk about the
line between art and propaganda.
The value of experiencing artlive versus watching it on a
screen or printed in a book andthe dozens of technicians and
staff that are required toproduce these massive firework
displays that we talked about.
(01:11):
We'll introduce Ellen Larsenduring the conversation that
starts in just a moment. But myfirst question was to Cortney
Chaffin, she's a professor ofAsian art history at UWSP. And
her research interests focus onthe materiality of death in
ancient China and the rich arrayof fantastic hybrid animal
imagery in early Chinesefunerary art. My first question
to Cortney was how she becameinterested in the topic of death
(01:34):
and funerals in art.
Cortney Chaffin (01:38):
Honestly, I think this goes way back to my
childhood, I can remember thefirst time I learned that we
die. And I don't think that, youknow, it was It wasn't like a
topic anyone talked about. Andthen my great grandmother died.
And I was in first grade and myparents, you know, picked me up
from school and said, We'regoing to Louisville, your great
(01:59):
grandmother has died. And I andI said, What do you mean, she's
died? What does that mean? Andit kind of was, I don't know,
very traumatic for me. And Ithink ever since then, it was
just like I was trying to figureout well, why do we die and how
you know, I think wanting tostudy death and funerals is sort
(02:19):
of my own way of figuring outhow to cope with mortality.
Shanny Luft (02:23):
That's really fascinating. Thanks for sharing
that. My other guest today isEllen Larsen. Ellen, you are a
curator, designer and writer aswell as a PhD candidate at the
University of Pittsburgh, yourdissertation project,
investigates domestictemporalities within the history
of contemporary moving Image artfrom China. Ellen curates and
(02:44):
presents, exhibitions,educational symposia, and other
art events in China and theUnited States. Welcome, Ellen.
Ellen Larson (02:52):
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Shanny Luft (02:54):
So Ellen, can you explain what domestic
temporalities are?
Ellen Larson (02:58):
Sure. So my current is their dissertation
project is looking at variousregions of China, particularly
the South, the South, Westregion, and northern regions of
China. And I'm looking atspecifically how these
(03:20):
contemporary social conditions,social change, urban
transformation, as well asregional histories and culture,
how they inform ways in whichartists think about and respond
to time, and more broadlyspeaking, how people in general
(03:41):
respond to time living in inthese various parts of China.
Shanny Luft (03:45):
That's fantastic.
Well, the reason I invited youboth here, because you both have
a podcast, and I want to talkabout that a little later. But
our main focus now is going tobe on this documentary that we
all saw, because Courtney andEllen, you're experts in Chinese
art and culture. Courtney, yourecommended this documentary
called Sky Ladder (04:02):
The Art of Cai Guo-Qiang. How close was I?
Cortney Chaffin (04:08):
Cai Guo-Qiang
Shanny Luft (04:09):
Thai,
Cortney Chaffin (04:10):
Thai
Shanny Luft (04:11):
sigh, say it again, sigh.
Cortney Chaffin (04:13):
Yes. Sigh.
Shanny Luft (04:15):
Sigh. And then gwo.
Cortney Chaffin (04:16):
Gua.
Shanny Luft (04:17):
Gwa,
Cortney Chaffin (04:17):
Gua.
Shanny Luft (04:20):
Sigh gwa.
Cortney Chaffin (04:22):
Chang,
Shanny Luft (04:23):
Chung?
Cortney Chaffin (04:23):
Chang. Yep.
Shanny Luft (04:24):
All right.
That's as close as I'm gonnaget.
Ellen Larson (04:27):
That's pretty good.
Cortney Chaffin (04:28):
Yeah. So Shanny. I really want to ask you
so you know, when I show thisdocumentary in my general
education classes, because it'sone of my favorites, and Cai
Guo-Qiang is one of my favoritecontemporary artists. But I'm
always really interested to findout, you know, what is the
reaction of someone who maybedoesn't keep up with
(04:50):
contemporary Chinese art? Whatdid you think about the
documentary? How did it moveyou? You know what really stood
out to you?
Shanny Luft (04:58):
Thanks for that question. His firework displays.
I actually didn't know fireworkscould do the things he was
doing. So part of it was, I wasfascinated just technically, how
do you make fireworks look likeflowers, with stems and, and the
kinds of colors he was using andthe the way that he was kind of
(05:18):
painting in the air. I had neverseen anything like it, it was
really remarkable. I was alsofascinated with his story. So
the two things I was reallyinterested in talking to you
about is one this art form,right that as far as I mean,
he's the only person I've everseen do anything like this
before, and his interest inFireworks. And he uses them in
(05:38):
ways that I found unimaginablycreative and interesting to do a
firework display like he'sdoing, which I'm imagining costs
hundreds of 1000s of dollars.
These are like incredibly fancy,expensive, complicated projects.
You have to get permits, and youhave to have teams of people
working together. He's not likea singular artist who's tying
(05:59):
together fireworks himself intolighting them sort of in his
backyard. He is more like thedirector of a movie where there
are teams of people he workswith and computer consultants.
He's working in differentcountries. So he's working with
different governments, there'slawyers and politics and
paperwork. Just like howcomplicated this process is. I
(06:20):
found really interesting.
Ellen Larson (06:24):
Yeah, and I think that's one of the really
interesting things aboutartistic practice. If we're not
involved in the day to dayworkings of a studio, right, we
sort of think that artworks thatwe see in an exhibition, or
online, they're sort of theresult of like, this creative
genius of this one artist, thisone individual. But of course,
(06:48):
that's not the case. Right?
Like, what you're what you'retalking about is, you know,
these studios employ lots ofdifferent people. And you know,
in China, it's everything fromfrom somebody doing translation
work, doing interview work, youknow, like, sort of filing
administrative stuff, and thenothers who, you know, are
working on photography. And thenyou know, studios are also
(07:10):
contracting out and hiringlaborers. Even, you know, the
artist, the very famous artist,Ai Weiwei, his sculptural works
are created by sculptors, likevery respected sculptors,
rather, you know, then theartist and sitting out in his
studio, just sort of likeslaving away at his at his own
(07:32):
work. But I think that it's alsoimportant for us to remember
that like, this is not new,right? Even within the context
of Euro American artisticpractice, you know, like, if we
think about Michelangelo, youknow, Michelangelo had a studio,
DaVinci had a studio. And so inmany of these instances, you
(07:54):
know, an apprentice would bepainting the entire body of the
figure, and then the master, youknow, Michelangelo, or
Rembrandt, or Da Vinci wouldcome in, and then, you know,
finish the face. So I think thatit's interesting. And also
important to remember that thethe creation of these works, it
(08:14):
is such an effort ofcollaboration, which I think the
documentary does a reallyfantastic job of revealing for
us, as you're pointing out.
Shanny Luft (08:26):
Right? Even though I was so touched by his personal
story, it also made me reflecton the fact that the final
product that you'd look at, wasactually hundreds of people's
work. But only one person getsacknowledged or credited or is
seen as the visionary. Even thedocumentary kind of alludes to
or gestures, or kind of, youspend a little bit of time with
(08:48):
getting a sense of just how manypeople it takes to do this. Are
those other people part of theart? Or is there a difference
between kind of the artist andthe people who are doing the
technical part of it? I don'tknow. Does that? Is that
something that art historians orscholars think about?
Ellen Larson (09:05):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's kind of all of
the above. I think that, youknow, it's, of course, as
teachers as educators or as, as,as scholars, as thinkers, you
know, we're thinking about thethe context in which this work
is being made the relationshipbetween the artist and the
(09:27):
artists environment. Inaddition, I think that it's it's
also perhaps important toacknowledge that these artists,
you know, they're working withlaborers with technicians with
fireworks manufacturers, butwithin those particular
contexts, they're helpingcontribute to a project, you
(09:49):
know, but like they're notartists, right. So the artist is
relying on their laborcompensating them for their
labor. You know, it's not likethe artists studio is taking
advantage. Have these workers,so they are contributing to the
project within their own right.
I feel like labor is animportant thing for us to talk
(10:09):
about. And labor, of course, isa part of the project. But when
I watched the documentary, andCai was in out, you know, on the
rooftop, with the fireworksmaker, and Wuhan, you know,
like, I didn't see the fireworksmaker, as an artist
collaborator, I saw thefireworks maker as contributing,
(10:32):
you know, his thinking histechnology. And again, they're
both they were on the roof, theywere drawing out ideas, they
were collaborating, but Cai, youknow, he has is the one with the
vision. And so he's able toeffectively collaborate with
other individuals and worktogether to produce what he's
(10:53):
ultimately trying to achieve.
Shanny Luft (10:58):
Okay, that's really helpful. Courtney, you mentioned
you show this documentary toyour students, how do they
respond to it? What do theythink of it,
Cortney Chaffin (11:06):
In a similar way to how you respond to it,
they also notice right awaythat, you know, Cai Guo-Qiang is
working with a team. And they doask questions about that. So,
you know, similar to you, sodoes this mean that, you know,
he's truly the artist behindthis work? You know, so I'm what
(11:28):
I tried to do was help themunderstand that, you know, Cai
Guo-Qiang, he has the concept,right, he's the one who comes up
with the concept for the work ofart, and then brings in, you
know, all of these collaboratorsto help them execute and, you
know, make this come intofruition.
Shanny Luft (11:46):
Another thing that documentary brings up is the
politics of China. It gets intoa little bit what his childhood
was like, and the rise of Maoand the difficult childhood that
he had, and then also hiscontinual work with the Chinese
government. So Courtney, talkabout that. What is his sort of
reaction to people who criticizehim? For working in China?
Cortney Chaffin (12:10):
Yeah, I think that's one of the most poignant
moments and the documentary,because he responds and says,
you know, it, you you onlyyou're, he's only receiving
criticism, because he's aChinese artists working for
Chinese government. And he makesthis comparison with
international artists who workfor their governments for big
(12:33):
events like the Olympics. So Ithink you mentioned Damien
Hirst, and the project that hedid,
Shanny Luft (12:41):
right for the London Olympics. Right?
Cortney Chaffin (12:42):
Yeah. So and I think, you know, that particular
moment is one that I always hopemy students are paying attention
to. Because there's so muchcriticism of the Chinese
government, in the media in theUnited States. And therefore,
you know, students initially, Ithink, I agree with that
criticism, like, yeah, why is heworking for the government? You
(13:05):
know, they see this as a badthing. But I think, you know,
you really need to sit and thinkabout this for a little bit.
And, you know, I thought, alsoZhang Yi-Mou, was the director,
that was also in thedocumentary, he says, [???],
which means like, there'snothing we can do. There's,
there's nothing we can do. Yeah,of course, we would love to have
these freedoms that other peoplehave, but we just don't. And so
(13:29):
what do you expect us to do,
Ellen Larson (13:31):
you know, to reduce Chinese art as being
responsible only for respondingto, you know, current events or
recent events in China. When,you know, in many ways, I think
that these projects are, arebeing shaped and influenced by
(13:54):
1000s of years of history andmaterial culture, I think that
it's really a disservice to ourown ability to, you know,
understand and appreciate thisrich culture, this, this, this
history of artistic innovation.
And I also think that China isoften talked about within the
(14:14):
context of, you know, issues offreedom of speech of censorship,
right? But if we're onlythinking about Chinese are
looking at Chinese art, youknow, within those contexts, you
know, don't you think thatthat's also a form of
censorship?
Shanny Luft (14:31):
Another thing I want to ask you about is I have
never felt like I wasdisappointed in my television
more than this documentary. Ifelt like you can't have a TV
large enough to appreciate whatyou're looking at on the screen.
It feels like you're trying tolook at the Grand Canyon through
a little window like the work isso much bigger than the TV that
(14:54):
I have never felt so like seeingit on TV does not capture what
the art actually is. I have seenthe Mona Lisa in person, and
I've seen it on a computerscreen. They don't look
different to me, like I don'thave enough of an artistic eye
to think seeing it in person. Ican see something I could not
see, in a photograph this guy'swork. It did feel like seeing it
(15:19):
on the screen was felt inferior.
It felt like if you're not thereexperiencing it, you actually
aren't really seeing what he'sintending?
Ellen Larson (15:26):
Well, I think that you're getting into a really
important point, which is scaleand environment.
Shanny Luft (15:33):
Yes.
Ellen Larson (15:33):
Right. Like, which is something again, you know,
people who present art withinexhibition airy context, like
that's what we're thinking aboutall the time. And so I think the
Mona Lisa is a really goodexample. Because the Mona Lisa
is like what like this big?
Yeah. So you know, and not onlyif you're at the Louvre, you see
it in Paris, you're always sofar back, you know, that it's
(15:54):
really the difference betweenseeing it in person in a crowd
full of people and seeing it onyour computer screen. You know,
the relationship to scale is notso different that you do think
of it as a similar experience.
But with these firework shows,the scale so massive, and
(16:14):
environment in terms of wherethese fireworks are being
ignited is also reallyimportant. You know, of course,
within the context of SkyLadder, Quanzhou, his his
hometown, you know, is reallysignificant, right? It's like
this coming home this, thisopportunity for him to realize
(16:36):
this project that he's beenworking on since 1994. Among,
you know, his close family andfriends, his studio, right,
allowing his grandmother to beable to watch it, you know, all
of those things are soimportant. I have seen one
fireworks display in Chicago afew years ago. And it was I get
(17:01):
the film. It absolutely does notdo the fireworks display
justice.
Cortney Chaffin (17:07):
We just did our podcast on the tomb of Lady Dai,
which is a second century BCEtomb. And she was buried in
these three beautifully paintednesting coffins. And I've been
to the museum in Hunan andChangsha, where all of her
materials are now exhibited. AndI didn't realize until I saw
(17:29):
those painted coffins in person,how exquisite they are, because
the lacquer paint is actuallybuilt up in certain areas. So
that you have these raisedoutlines, you know, that you you
can, you can never see, and aphotograph of that painting. So
I think there are lots of thosesorts of examples, even things
(17:50):
that you never would haveimagined, like it would look so
different in person.
Ellen Larson (17:54):
Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why
ties work is difficult todocument and to understand if
you don't experience it inperson, because I think that the
environment, and you know, theact of creating an explosion,
(18:14):
that to me is the work. I thinkit's it's more about, you know,
those moments of impermanence,thinking about the relationship
between humans and nature, likeI see his work is very Taoist. I
wore my Taoist ring today tosort of belabor that point. So I
(18:35):
think that he's interested inrecognizing these impermanent
relationships between ourselvesand our natural environments.
And, you know, thinking aboutchange and and process and the
marks that he's making on thepaper as much as he's planning,
(18:56):
there is still this reallyimportant element of
spontaneity, I think, you know,things that that he sort of
can't expect and happen based onthis perfect combination of
gunpowder, fire, and then whathappens to the paper.
Cortney Chaffin (19:13):
Another point that I wanted to make earlier
too based on what Ellen wastalking about is, you know,
looking at his work, you know,along with this, the Taoist
aspect, I think that, you know,it's so important to see the the
family connections, rightthat the Sky Ladder, for
example, he tried this work fourtimes on, you know, until he was
(19:34):
finally successful, and the lasttime you know, it, he only had
family and friends. He didn'twant it to be advertised that he
was doing this project. Youknow, he was doing it for his
grandmother, who was 100 yearsold and died shortly after. And
I was so moved by that, youknow, when he sort of found his
(19:56):
Why Why am I doing that? SkyLadder. Why am I trying so hard
on this project? And he realizedit's for his grandmother. He was
successful. And I think a lot ofhis works are rooted in sort of
the Taoist philosophy that helearned from his grandmother.
Right. She was a devout Taoistgrowing up, and he spent a lot
(20:17):
of time with her.
And you can see in thedocumentary how much he loves
his grandmother, I, you know, Icry every time I watched the
documentary, because I was alsoclose with my grandmother. It's
so moving. Yeah.
So you know, he learned aboutTaoism from his grandmother. His
(20:38):
work is rooted in the local,where he grew up the I mean, the
use of gunpowder is based onwhere he grew up, right
fireworks based on where he grewup, the fishing villages, all of
that, right. So there's thatreal even though he's such a big
artist, and he's aninternational artists, you can
always see that local aspect.
Shanny Luft (20:59):
So the other reason, Ellen and Cortney, I
wanted to have you on thepodcast is because you both
started a podcast called Of theEarth. And so I want you just to
kind of talk a little bit aboutwhat inspired you to start a
podcast and how it's going.
Cortney Chaffin (21:10):
We really started the podcast from many
years of long conversationsbetween Ellen and I about
Chinese art.
You know, I think one thing forboth of us is, you know,
especially I feel this way atUWSP, you know, there isn't
another faculty member on campusthat studies Chinese art, or
(21:35):
that specializes in Chinesehistory. And so I often feel
like, oh, who can I talk to youabout this thing? You know, and
Ellen, and I think reallyconnected because she went on to
graduate school. I mean, shelived in China did her master's
degree in China. And so we werelike, our go to people like, oh,
(21:55):
you know, did you hear thisabout China? Because, you know,
other people in our lives maybeare like, Oh, you're talking
about China again.
And so, you know, we were wewere talking on the phone. I
think we were talking on thephone, when we were like this
could be such a great podcast,we should, you know, start
making a list of topics that wecould talk about. And we talked
(22:17):
about it for, I think over ayear before finally, the
pandemic, we decided we we'vejust had we have to do this.
Let's do it.
Shanny Luft (22:27):
What are the some of the topics you've already
talked about the podcast? What'scoming up? What can people look
forward to?
Ellen Larson (22:31):
Yeah, so I we're first two episodes have a lot of
overlap. The first episodeexplores the temporalities, of a
contemporary artist named CaoFei, particularly in
relationship to a recentexhibition that she staged in
(22:51):
Beijing. And then from that, webranched out and had a
discussion about a 2000 year oldmummy named Lady Dai, who is a
specially beloved in all ofCortney's classes. So we were
able to think about therelationship between these two
(23:13):
women who live 2000 years apart,and the interesting connections
between both of them. Movingforward, we have lots of
exciting topics, we're thinkingabout utopia, what is Utopia
mean? It within a Chinesecontext, both past and present.
(23:35):
We were also thinking about somekind of Silk Road episode,
especially in relationship tothe recent Belt and Road
Initiative launched by Chinasince 2014 2015.
Shanny Luft (23:50):
And your podcast, there's like a video component
as well. It's not just audio.
Ellen Larson (23:55):
Well, we have so the the the podcast itself, it's
available anywhere you get yourpodcasts, but the the video
component was an idea that wehad to offer teasers or to sort
of go behind the scenes. Youknow, like, as you can imagine,
when you record a podcast, Imean, at least as the case for
(24:18):
Cortney and me, we usually endup on the floor laughing at each
other. So we we include a fewsnippets, family friendly
snippets of sort of the behindthe scenes stuff that happens.
Shanny Luft (24:34):
The, outtakes
Ellen Larson (24:35):
Yeah.
Shanny Luft (24:37):
That's fantastic.
Well, the the parts that I'velistened to I love your podcast.
I'm fascinated by it, Cortney.
I've talked to students who havetaken your classes, and I've
heard so many positivecomplimentary things from
students whose minds were openedand eyes were open to what you
teach. Ellen is an example ofthat. But I've talked to dozens
of other students in my classeswho've told me how much they
(24:58):
enjoy taking your classes.
Ellen Larson (25:00):
Thank you. Well, I think, you know, this is part of
another reason why we wanted todo this podcast is because
especially when you, you know,look at American media, it's all
about Chinese government andChinese government is bad. And
so when, you know, I even see,for example, people on Facebook
(25:21):
that I that I know, posting antiChina memes, and I feel like
they don't really understandthose anti China memes. And, you
know, number one, but numbertwo, I think there's also, you
know, people aren't looking deepenough to really see that China
is not just Chinese government.
China is 5000 years of humanhistory. It's culture. It's
(25:43):
about family, like we weretalking about with Cai's work,
right. Its religion, itsphilosophy, all things that we
can learn from in appreciatejust, you know, being part of
the human family. And so I hopethat people will tune in maybe
to, um, learn a little bit moreabout China.
Shanny Luft (26:05):
Cortney Chaffin and Ellen Larson, thank you so much
for joining me to talk about SkyLadder, as well as art in China
and your podcast.
Congratulations. It's been afantastic conversation. I really
enjoyed watching thisdocumentary and it's been a
pleasure to talk to you with
Ellen L (26:19):
thanks so much, Shanny.
Cortney Chaffin (26:20):
Thank you.
Shanny Luft (26:22):
I hope you enjoyed my chat with Ellen Larson, a
curator, designer and writer aswell as a PhD candidate at the
University of Pittsburgh. AndCortney Chaffin, a professor of
Asian art history at theUniversity of Wisconsin-Stevens
Point. Please check out Ellenand Cortney's podcast on Chinese
art Of the Earth, which isavailable wherever you listen to
podcasts. If you do check outSky Ladder on Netflix, come to
(26:45):
my Facebook page. no cure forcuriosity, let me know what you
think of it. You can also dropme an email at
nocureforcuriosity@outlook.com.
Our snappy theme song waswritten by a UWSP music student
Derek Cardin, and our logo wasdesigned by artist and graphic
designer Ryan Dreimiller. Linksto their work is available in
the show notes to this episode.
We'll be back in two weeks witha Halloween inspired episode of
(27:09):
no cure for curiosity.
Gretel Stock (27:12):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated, intentional, and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
values of connecting,supporting, collaborating, and
engaging. Learn more aboutUW-Stevens Point and all our
programs at uwsp.edu.
Welcome to no cure for curiosity, a podcast to
encourage and promote curiosityin the liberal arts. I am Shanny
luft, a professor of religiousstudies and the Associate Dean
of general education at theUniversity of Wisconsin at
Stevens Point. Today's episodeis about the Chinese artist Cai
Guo-Qiang who is world famousfor his pyrotechnic art pieces.
(00:29):
My guests are Courtney Chaffinand Ellen Larsen. They both
recommended a documentary onNetflix called Sky Ladder: The
Art of Cai Guo-Qiang whichdocuments the artist's
mesmerizing fireworks displaysand his 20 year effort to create
Sky Ladder, which is this imagehe carried for a firework
display that was designed like aladder that climbs hundreds of
(00:49):
feet into the sky. You don'thave to watch Sky Ladder before
listening to this episode, but Ihope our conversation today will
inspire you to check it out. Inthe podcast, we talk about the
line between art and propaganda.
The value of experiencing artlive versus watching it on a
screen or printed in a book andthe dozens of technicians and
staff that are required toproduce these massive firework
displays that we talked about.
(01:11):
We'll introduce Ellen Larsenduring the conversation that
starts in just a moment. But myfirst question was to Cortney
Chaffin, she's a professor ofAsian art history at UWSP. And
her research interests focus onthe materiality of death in
ancient China and the rich arrayof fantastic hybrid animal
imagery in early Chinesefunerary art. My first question
to Cortney was how she becameinterested in the topic of death
(01:34):
and funerals in art.
Cortney Chaffin (01:38):
Honestly, I think this goes way back to my
childhood, I can remember thefirst time I learned that we
die. And I don't think that, youknow, it was It wasn't like a
topic anyone talked about. Andthen my great grandmother died.
And I was in first grade and myparents, you know, picked me up
from school and said, We'regoing to Louisville, your great
(01:59):
grandmother has died. And I andI said, What do you mean, she's
died? What does that mean? Andit kind of was, I don't know,
very traumatic for me. And Ithink ever since then, it was
just like I was trying to figureout well, why do we die and how
you know, I think wanting tostudy death and funerals is sort
(02:19):
of my own way of figuring outhow to cope with mortality.
Shanny Luft (02:23):
That's really fascinating. Thanks for sharing
that. My other guest today isEllen Larsen. Ellen, you are a
curator, designer and writer aswell as a PhD candidate at the
University of Pittsburgh, yourdissertation project,
investigates domestictemporalities within the history
of contemporary moving Image artfrom China. Ellen curates and
(02:44):
presents, exhibitions,educational symposia, and other
art events in China and theUnited States. Welcome, Ellen.
Ellen Larson (02:52):
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Shanny Luft (02:54):
So Ellen, can you explain what domestic
temporalities are?
Ellen Larson (02:58):
Sure. So my current is their dissertation
project is looking at variousregions of China, particularly
the South, the South, Westregion, and northern regions of
China. And I'm looking atspecifically how these
(03:20):
contemporary social conditions,social change, urban
transformation, as well asregional histories and culture,
how they inform ways in whichartists think about and respond
to time, and more broadlyspeaking, how people in general
(03:41):
respond to time living in inthese various parts of China.
Shanny Luft (03:45):
That's fantastic.
Well, the reason I invited youboth here, because you both have
a podcast, and I want to talkabout that a little later. But
our main focus now is going tobe on this documentary that we
all saw, because Courtney andEllen, you're experts in Chinese
art and culture. Courtney, yourecommended this documentary
called Sky Ladder (04:02):
The Art of Cai Guo-Qiang. How close was I?
Cortney Chaffin (04:08):
Cai Guo-Qiang
Shanny Luft (04:09):
Thai,
Cortney Chaffin (04:10):
Thai
Shanny Luft (04:11):
sigh, say it again, sigh.
Cortney Chaffin (04:13):
Yes. Sigh.
Shanny Luft (04:15):
Sigh. And then gwo.
Cortney Chaffin (04:16):
Gua.
Shanny Luft (04:17):
Gwa,
Cortney Chaffin (04:17):
Gua.
Shanny Luft (04:20):
Sigh gwa.
Cortney Chaffin (04:22):
Chang,
Shanny Luft (04:23):
Chung?
Cortney Chaffin (04:23):
Chang. Yep.
Shanny Luft (04:24):
All right.
That's as close as I'm gonnaget.
Ellen Larson (04:27):
That's pretty good.
Cortney Chaffin (04:28):
Yeah. So Shanny. I really want to ask you
so you know, when I show thisdocumentary in my general
education classes, because it'sone of my favorites, and Cai
Guo-Qiang is one of my favoritecontemporary artists. But I'm
always really interested to findout, you know, what is the
reaction of someone who maybedoesn't keep up with
(04:50):
contemporary Chinese art? Whatdid you think about the
documentary? How did it moveyou? You know what really stood
out to you?
Shanny Luft (04:58):
Thanks for that question. His firework displays.
I actually didn't know fireworkscould do the things he was
doing. So part of it was, I wasfascinated just technically, how
do you make fireworks look likeflowers, with stems and, and the
kinds of colors he was using andthe the way that he was kind of
(05:18):
painting in the air. I had neverseen anything like it, it was
really remarkable. I was alsofascinated with his story. So
the two things I was reallyinterested in talking to you
about is one this art form,right that as far as I mean,
he's the only person I've everseen do anything like this
before, and his interest inFireworks. And he uses them in
(05:38):
ways that I found unimaginablycreative and interesting to do a
firework display like he'sdoing, which I'm imagining costs
hundreds of 1000s of dollars.
These are like incredibly fancy,expensive, complicated projects.
You have to get permits, and youhave to have teams of people
working together. He's not likea singular artist who's tying
(05:59):
together fireworks himself intolighting them sort of in his
backyard. He is more like thedirector of a movie where there
are teams of people he workswith and computer consultants.
He's working in differentcountries. So he's working with
different governments, there'slawyers and politics and
paperwork. Just like howcomplicated this process is. I
(06:20):
found really interesting.
Ellen Larson (06:24):
Yeah, and I think that's one of the really
interesting things aboutartistic practice. If we're not
involved in the day to dayworkings of a studio, right, we
sort of think that artworks thatwe see in an exhibition, or
online, they're sort of theresult of like, this creative
genius of this one artist, thisone individual. But of course,
(06:48):
that's not the case. Right?
Like, what you're what you'retalking about is, you know,
these studios employ lots ofdifferent people. And you know,
in China, it's everything fromfrom somebody doing translation
work, doing interview work, youknow, like, sort of filing
administrative stuff, and thenothers who, you know, are
working on photography. And thenyou know, studios are also
(07:10):
contracting out and hiringlaborers. Even, you know, the
artist, the very famous artist,Ai Weiwei, his sculptural works
are created by sculptors, likevery respected sculptors,
rather, you know, then theartist and sitting out in his
studio, just sort of likeslaving away at his at his own
(07:32):
work. But I think that it's alsoimportant for us to remember
that like, this is not new,right? Even within the context
of Euro American artisticpractice, you know, like, if we
think about Michelangelo, youknow, Michelangelo had a studio,
DaVinci had a studio. And so inmany of these instances, you
(07:54):
know, an apprentice would bepainting the entire body of the
figure, and then the master, youknow, Michelangelo, or
Rembrandt, or Da Vinci wouldcome in, and then, you know,
finish the face. So I think thatit's interesting. And also
important to remember that thethe creation of these works, it
(08:14):
is such an effort ofcollaboration, which I think the
documentary does a reallyfantastic job of revealing for
us, as you're pointing out.
Shanny Luft (08:26):
Right? Even though I was so touched by his personal
story, it also made me reflecton the fact that the final
product that you'd look at, wasactually hundreds of people's
work. But only one person getsacknowledged or credited or is
seen as the visionary. Even thedocumentary kind of alludes to
or gestures, or kind of, youspend a little bit of time with
(08:48):
getting a sense of just how manypeople it takes to do this. Are
those other people part of theart? Or is there a difference
between kind of the artist andthe people who are doing the
technical part of it? I don'tknow. Does that? Is that
something that art historians orscholars think about?
Ellen Larson (09:05):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's kind of all of
the above. I think that, youknow, it's, of course, as
teachers as educators or as, as,as scholars, as thinkers, you
know, we're thinking about thethe context in which this work
is being made the relationshipbetween the artist and the
(09:27):
artists environment. Inaddition, I think that it's it's
also perhaps important toacknowledge that these artists,
you know, they're working withlaborers with technicians with
fireworks manufacturers, butwithin those particular
contexts, they're helpingcontribute to a project, you
(09:49):
know, but like they're notartists, right. So the artist is
relying on their laborcompensating them for their
labor. You know, it's not likethe artists studio is taking
advantage. Have these workers,so they are contributing to the
project within their own right.
I feel like labor is animportant thing for us to talk
(10:09):
about. And labor, of course, isa part of the project. But when
I watched the documentary, andCai was in out, you know, on the
rooftop, with the fireworksmaker, and Wuhan, you know,
like, I didn't see the fireworksmaker, as an artist
collaborator, I saw thefireworks maker as contributing,
(10:32):
you know, his thinking histechnology. And again, they're
both they were on the roof, theywere drawing out ideas, they
were collaborating, but Cai, youknow, he has is the one with the
vision. And so he's able toeffectively collaborate with
other individuals and worktogether to produce what he's
(10:53):
ultimately trying to achieve.
Shanny Luft (10:58):
Okay, that's really helpful. Courtney, you mentioned
you show this documentary toyour students, how do they
respond to it? What do theythink of it,
Cortney Chaffin (11:06):
In a similar way to how you respond to it,
they also notice right awaythat, you know, Cai Guo-Qiang is
working with a team. And they doask questions about that. So,
you know, similar to you, sodoes this mean that, you know,
he's truly the artist behindthis work? You know, so I'm what
(11:28):
I tried to do was help themunderstand that, you know, Cai
Guo-Qiang, he has the concept,right, he's the one who comes up
with the concept for the work ofart, and then brings in, you
know, all of these collaboratorsto help them execute and, you
know, make this come intofruition.
Shanny Luft (11:46):
Another thing that documentary brings up is the
politics of China. It gets intoa little bit what his childhood
was like, and the rise of Maoand the difficult childhood that
he had, and then also hiscontinual work with the Chinese
government. So Courtney, talkabout that. What is his sort of
reaction to people who criticizehim? For working in China?
Cortney Chaffin (12:10):
Yeah, I think that's one of the most poignant
moments and the documentary,because he responds and says,
you know, it, you you onlyyou're, he's only receiving
criticism, because he's aChinese artists working for
Chinese government. And he makesthis comparison with
international artists who workfor their governments for big
(12:33):
events like the Olympics. So Ithink you mentioned Damien
Hirst, and the project that hedid,
Shanny Luft (12:41):
right for the London Olympics. Right?
Cortney Chaffin (12:42):
Yeah. So and I think, you know, that particular
moment is one that I always hopemy students are paying attention
to. Because there's so muchcriticism of the Chinese
government, in the media in theUnited States. And therefore,
you know, students initially, Ithink, I agree with that
criticism, like, yeah, why is heworking for the government? You
(13:05):
know, they see this as a badthing. But I think, you know,
you really need to sit and thinkabout this for a little bit.
And, you know, I thought, alsoZhang Yi-Mou, was the director,
that was also in thedocumentary, he says, [???],
which means like, there'snothing we can do. There's,
there's nothing we can do. Yeah,of course, we would love to have
these freedoms that other peoplehave, but we just don't. And so
(13:29):
what do you expect us to do,
Ellen Larson (13:31):
you know, to reduce Chinese art as being
responsible only for respondingto, you know, current events or
recent events in China. When,you know, in many ways, I think
that these projects are, arebeing shaped and influenced by
(13:54):
1000s of years of history andmaterial culture, I think that
it's really a disservice to ourown ability to, you know,
understand and appreciate thisrich culture, this, this, this
history of artistic innovation.
And I also think that China isoften talked about within the
(14:14):
context of, you know, issues offreedom of speech of censorship,
right? But if we're onlythinking about Chinese are
looking at Chinese art, youknow, within those contexts, you
know, don't you think thatthat's also a form of
censorship?
Shanny Luft (14:31):
Another thing I want to ask you about is I have
never felt like I wasdisappointed in my television
more than this documentary. Ifelt like you can't have a TV
large enough to appreciate whatyou're looking at on the screen.
It feels like you're trying tolook at the Grand Canyon through
a little window like the work isso much bigger than the TV that
(14:54):
I have never felt so like seeingit on TV does not capture what
the art actually is. I have seenthe Mona Lisa in person, and
I've seen it on a computerscreen. They don't look
different to me, like I don'thave enough of an artistic eye
to think seeing it in person. Ican see something I could not
see, in a photograph this guy'swork. It did feel like seeing it
(15:19):
on the screen was felt inferior.
It felt like if you're not thereexperiencing it, you actually
aren't really seeing what he'sintending?
Ellen Larson (15:26):
Well, I think that you're getting into a really
important point, which is scaleand environment.
Shanny Luft (15:33):
Yes.
Ellen Larson (15:33):
Right. Like, which is something again, you know,
people who present art withinexhibition airy context, like
that's what we're thinking aboutall the time. And so I think the
Mona Lisa is a really goodexample. Because the Mona Lisa
is like what like this big?
Yeah. So you know, and not onlyif you're at the Louvre, you see
it in Paris, you're always sofar back, you know, that it's
(15:54):
really the difference betweenseeing it in person in a crowd
full of people and seeing it onyour computer screen. You know,
the relationship to scale is notso different that you do think
of it as a similar experience.
But with these firework shows,the scale so massive, and
(16:14):
environment in terms of wherethese fireworks are being
ignited is also reallyimportant. You know, of course,
within the context of SkyLadder, Quanzhou, his his
hometown, you know, is reallysignificant, right? It's like
this coming home this, thisopportunity for him to realize
(16:36):
this project that he's beenworking on since 1994. Among,
you know, his close family andfriends, his studio, right,
allowing his grandmother to beable to watch it, you know, all
of those things are soimportant. I have seen one
fireworks display in Chicago afew years ago. And it was I get
(17:01):
the film. It absolutely does notdo the fireworks display
justice.
Cortney Chaffin (17:07):
We just did our podcast on the tomb of Lady Dai,
which is a second century BCEtomb. And she was buried in
these three beautifully paintednesting coffins. And I've been
to the museum in Hunan andChangsha, where all of her
materials are now exhibited. AndI didn't realize until I saw
(17:29):
those painted coffins in person,how exquisite they are, because
the lacquer paint is actuallybuilt up in certain areas. So
that you have these raisedoutlines, you know, that you you
can, you can never see, and aphotograph of that painting. So
I think there are lots of thosesorts of examples, even things
(17:50):
that you never would haveimagined, like it would look so
different in person.
Ellen Larson (17:54):
Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why
ties work is difficult todocument and to understand if
you don't experience it inperson, because I think that the
environment, and you know, theact of creating an explosion,
(18:14):
that to me is the work. I thinkit's it's more about, you know,
those moments of impermanence,thinking about the relationship
between humans and nature, likeI see his work is very Taoist. I
wore my Taoist ring today tosort of belabor that point. So I
(18:35):
think that he's interested inrecognizing these impermanent
relationships between ourselvesand our natural environments.
And, you know, thinking aboutchange and and process and the
marks that he's making on thepaper as much as he's planning,
(18:56):
there is still this reallyimportant element of
spontaneity, I think, you know,things that that he sort of
can't expect and happen based onthis perfect combination of
gunpowder, fire, and then whathappens to the paper.
Cortney Chaffin (19:13):
Another point that I wanted to make earlier
too based on what Ellen wastalking about is, you know,
looking at his work, you know,along with this, the Taoist
aspect, I think that, you know,it's so important to see the the
family connections, rightthat the Sky Ladder, for
example, he tried this work fourtimes on, you know, until he was
(19:34):
finally successful, and the lasttime you know, it, he only had
family and friends. He didn'twant it to be advertised that he
was doing this project. Youknow, he was doing it for his
grandmother, who was 100 yearsold and died shortly after. And
I was so moved by that, youknow, when he sort of found his
(19:56):
Why Why am I doing that? SkyLadder. Why am I trying so hard
on this project? And he realizedit's for his grandmother. He was
successful. And I think a lot ofhis works are rooted in sort of
the Taoist philosophy that helearned from his grandmother.
Right. She was a devout Taoistgrowing up, and he spent a lot
(20:17):
of time with her.
And you can see in thedocumentary how much he loves
his grandmother, I, you know, Icry every time I watched the
documentary, because I was alsoclose with my grandmother. It's
so moving. Yeah.
So you know, he learned aboutTaoism from his grandmother. His
(20:38):
work is rooted in the local,where he grew up the I mean, the
use of gunpowder is based onwhere he grew up, right
fireworks based on where he grewup, the fishing villages, all of
that, right. So there's thatreal even though he's such a big
artist, and he's aninternational artists, you can
always see that local aspect.
Shanny Luft (20:59):
So the other reason, Ellen and Cortney, I
wanted to have you on thepodcast is because you both
started a podcast called Of theEarth. And so I want you just to
kind of talk a little bit aboutwhat inspired you to start a
podcast and how it's going.
Cortney Chaffin (21:10):
We really started the podcast from many
years of long conversationsbetween Ellen and I about
Chinese art.
You know, I think one thing forboth of us is, you know,
especially I feel this way atUWSP, you know, there isn't
another faculty member on campusthat studies Chinese art, or
(21:35):
that specializes in Chinesehistory. And so I often feel
like, oh, who can I talk to youabout this thing? You know, and
Ellen, and I think reallyconnected because she went on to
graduate school. I mean, shelived in China did her master's
degree in China. And so we werelike, our go to people like, oh,
(21:55):
you know, did you hear thisabout China? Because, you know,
other people in our lives maybeare like, Oh, you're talking
about China again.
And so, you know, we were wewere talking on the phone. I
think we were talking on thephone, when we were like this
could be such a great podcast,we should, you know, start
making a list of topics that wecould talk about. And we talked
(22:17):
about it for, I think over ayear before finally, the
pandemic, we decided we we'vejust had we have to do this.
Let's do it.
Shanny Luft (22:27):
What are the some of the topics you've already
talked about the podcast? What'scoming up? What can people look
forward to?
Ellen Larson (22:31):
Yeah, so I we're first two episodes have a lot of
overlap. The first episodeexplores the temporalities, of a
contemporary artist named CaoFei, particularly in
relationship to a recentexhibition that she staged in
(22:51):
Beijing. And then from that, webranched out and had a
discussion about a 2000 year oldmummy named Lady Dai, who is a
specially beloved in all ofCortney's classes. So we were
able to think about therelationship between these two
(23:13):
women who live 2000 years apart,and the interesting connections
between both of them. Movingforward, we have lots of
exciting topics, we're thinkingabout utopia, what is Utopia
mean? It within a Chinesecontext, both past and present.
(23:35):
We were also thinking about somekind of Silk Road episode,
especially in relationship tothe recent Belt and Road
Initiative launched by Chinasince 2014 2015.
Shanny Luft (23:50):
And your podcast, there's like a video component
as well. It's not just audio.
Ellen Larson (23:55):
Well, we have so the the the podcast itself, it's
available anywhere you get yourpodcasts, but the the video
component was an idea that wehad to offer teasers or to sort
of go behind the scenes. Youknow, like, as you can imagine,
when you record a podcast, Imean, at least as the case for
(24:18):
Cortney and me, we usually endup on the floor laughing at each
other. So we we include a fewsnippets, family friendly
snippets of sort of the behindthe scenes stuff that happens.
Shanny Luft (24:34):
The, outtakes
Ellen Larson (24:35):
Yeah.
Shanny Luft (24:37):
That's fantastic.
Well, the the parts that I'velistened to I love your podcast.
I'm fascinated by it, Cortney.
I've talked to students who havetaken your classes, and I've
heard so many positivecomplimentary things from
students whose minds were openedand eyes were open to what you
teach. Ellen is an example ofthat. But I've talked to dozens
of other students in my classeswho've told me how much they
(24:58):
enjoy taking your classes.
Ellen Larson (25:00):
Thank you. Well, I think, you know, this is part of
another reason why we wanted todo this podcast is because
especially when you, you know,look at American media, it's all
about Chinese government andChinese government is bad. And
so when, you know, I even see,for example, people on Facebook
(25:21):
that I that I know, posting antiChina memes, and I feel like
they don't really understandthose anti China memes. And, you
know, number one, but numbertwo, I think there's also, you
know, people aren't looking deepenough to really see that China
is not just Chinese government.
China is 5000 years of humanhistory. It's culture. It's
(25:43):
about family, like we weretalking about with Cai's work,
right. Its religion, itsphilosophy, all things that we
can learn from in appreciatejust, you know, being part of
the human family. And so I hopethat people will tune in maybe
to, um, learn a little bit moreabout China.
Shanny Luft (26:05):
Cortney Chaffin and Ellen Larson, thank you so much
for joining me to talk about SkyLadder, as well as art in China
and your podcast.
Congratulations. It's been afantastic conversation. I really
enjoyed watching thisdocumentary and it's been a
pleasure to talk to you with
Ellen L (26:19):
thanks so much, Shanny.
Cortney Chaffin (26:20):
Thank you.
Shanny Luft (26:22):
I hope you enjoyed my chat with Ellen Larson, a
curator, designer and writer aswell as a PhD candidate at the
University of Pittsburgh. AndCortney Chaffin, a professor of
Asian art history at theUniversity of Wisconsin-Stevens
Point. Please check out Ellenand Cortney's podcast on Chinese
art Of the Earth, which isavailable wherever you listen to
podcasts. If you do check outSky Ladder on Netflix, come to
(26:45):
my Facebook page. no cure forcuriosity, let me know what you
think of it. You can also dropme an email at
nocureforcuriosity@outlook.com.
Our snappy theme song waswritten by a UWSP music student
Derek Cardin, and our logo wasdesigned by artist and graphic
designer Ryan Dreimiller. Linksto their work is available in
the show notes to this episode.
We'll be back in two weeks witha Halloween inspired episode of
(27:09):
no cure for curiosity.
Gretel Stock (27:12):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated, intentional, and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
values of connecting,supporting, collaborating, and
engaging. Learn more aboutUW-Stevens Point and all our
programs at uwsp.edu.
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