May 10, 2021 • 26 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shanny Luft (00:00):
You know what it reminded me of when I was
(00:01):
watching the movie with my wife.
I started calling out lines fromrocky for when Sylvester
Stallone fights the RussianWelcome to no cure for
curiosity. I am Shanny Luft,Associate Dean of general
education at UW SP, and I'm alsoa professor of religious
studies. Today's episodecontinues the conversation I had
with Valerie barska and CarrieElza. If you don't know who they
(00:23):
are, you should check out ourprevious episode first. Our
conversation was so far ranging,it could not be contained in one
episode. The part of ourconversation you'll hear today
focus mostly on Godzilla vs.
Kong, which came out in 2021.
Godzilla vs. Kong as part of alarger monsterverse series of
films. The connected films areGodzilla, which came out in
(00:45):
2014, then kong skull island in2017, Godzilla King of the
Monsters in 2019, and that allled up to Godzilla vs. Kong,
which came out in March 2021. Wetalked about the recent film in
the context of the earlierGodzilla and Kong films, as well
as the contemporary themes fromthe new movie. I hope you enjoy
our conversation as much as Ihad having this Godzilla movie
(01:07):
does not feel like the even thelast Godzilla movie. It's even
in the filming, for example, inthe last Godzilla movie, which
is part of this same universe,the one the Bryan Cranston one,
much of the shots of Godzillaare from the perspective of
human beings you spend a lot oftime in the movie looking up at
(01:29):
a walking skyscraper monster andexperiencing it from the ground
level of people. And this moviethat seems to be gone most of
the people are removed so thatit's just a battle royale
Cary Elza (01:43):
the I feel that so I you know, I rewatched half of
the 2014 Godzilla and you'reright scale is played with an a
different way here than it wasthere. But I'm getting the same
kind of kind of Avengers MCUflavor here in that different
kind of different personalities.
different properties in thisfranchise are going to have
(02:06):
different tones to them. So KingKong seems to be a little looser
to me. The King Kong movies seemto be, I don't know, a little
sillier. A little IndianaJonesy. Yeah, that tone gets
brought into this movie likethis movie open. With King Kong,
right, like taking a shower anda waterfall. The use of music is
(02:32):
interesting. And he scratcheshis butt. Yeah, it feels it
feels different. And I will addthat if you haven't seen the the
kong skull island that came outthat movies awesome. That movie
is really fun. I mean, it haslike like these other films,
(02:54):
they spare absolutely no expensein the act. They they hire
everybody that they can possiblyget their hands on. So the
acting is pretty, pretty solid.
Um, they john C. Reilly is inthat movie playing like a goofy
pilot who has crashed and hasbeen living with the people for
(03:15):
30 years since World War Two,the whole thing is set and like
it right at the end of theVietnam War. And they they every
other scene has an incrediblyexpensive song that they had to
license. So it is a it's a kindof a fun and loose movie. And
and I see some of that, youknow, because these you can take
(03:39):
come Godzilla versus Kong, wecan kind of like separate into
these two zones, right? Thesetwo teams that are kind of
associated with each monster,and the the Kong the Kong stuff
has a different flavor. It'smore it's more like adventury
and it speaks to the originalmurine Cooper Erna showed a sack
movie. And the Godzilla stuffseems more deadly serious to me,
(04:03):
honestly. Yeah, so those twotones mix just like in the
Avengers movie like the tone ofThor mixes with tone of, of, you
know, Iron Man. And so thesedifferent tones all kind of meld
together in interesting ways.
Shanny Luft (04:21):
They kind of sense each other. Right? Godzilla and
Kong. They don't even have tohear each other see each other.
They know when the other onesaround. You were saying earlier
radar. Yeah, yes. their identityis fight the other title, right.
That's their primary goal inlife is to just destroy each
other. You even get the senseCongos to like the middle of the
(04:42):
earth and then picks up thatYeah, talk about that. What's
going on in hollow earth like Iyeah, it's like implied that
this war between these monstersis like generational. Right
there was like an ancient Kongfighting an ancient Godzilla. I
don't care. What did you thinkabout that Middle Earth stuff.
Cary Elza (04:59):
There's You know, there's this trend and in cinema
that we must constantly tie ourmonsters back to something
ancient, we must feel rooted. Wemust discover the roots that we
did not know that we had no timethat we all feel unmoored.
Right. That's new. This scepterand the or whatever it is, um,
(05:24):
and and and this this idea thatthere's a throne and there's
they're they've been fightingfrom for millennia or something.
So that's all I got, right?
Like, we all want to feelrooted. We all want to feel like
our problems are connected toproblems that have been
happening and, and we we are, weare connected to our ancestors.
I don't know. I don't know. ButI do have. Oh, go ahead. Go
(05:45):
ahead.
Shanny Luft (05:47):
I was gonna say all these monsters are apex
predators, right, Carrie thepoint of King Kong even from
1933 is he is the biggest badassmonster on Skull Island. Right?
That's why you kind of want himon your side. Godzilla from the
1960s is literally called Kingof the Monsters right their
status as the biggest badassmonster is it for each of them
(06:08):
is part of their identity. Andthat's true on Skull Island.
That's true in you know, thatlittle Middle Earth section.
right that is like Kong'sKingdom even has like a throne
that he sits on to communicatethat he his ancestry was the
apex predator of this hollowEarth world. I did enjoy those
(06:29):
effects though. The
Cary Elza (06:31):
Inception little Inception bit where they like
jump from one side to the other.
Yeah, I thought that was great.
I didn't I didn't see thatuncommon the strangeness of
gravity and I thought that was anice touch. That was
Valerie Barske (06:44):
cool. And I like the there's something picking up
on what Kerry saying aboutwanting to have links our
ancestors, Shani, you and I keptusing the word home, you know,
he's home. Right? He's likeswinging through stuff. And he
feels like he's well at the endtoo. There's like a going home
and they sing. All I need is theair that I breathe air to love
(07:06):
you right? Like there's beensomething about and maybe
that's, that's giving to wherewe are right now in this current
current global pandemicsituation that this longing for
those roots, but I I actuallyreally enjoyed of all the scenes
I think I really enjoyed theHollow Earth scenes quite quite
a lot. Just on therepresentations there. This kind
of scepter of Maybe it comesfrom one of the biking dinosaur
(07:28):
parts of Godzilla. I don't knowI was really taken in by that
Shanny Luft (07:33):
they you know what struck me watching them this new
movie is King Kong is alwaysabout home. Right? Skull Island
is His home is and the whatdrives the plot is removing him
from the land in which he'scomfortable. Right? When he goes
to New York, the reason hefreaks out in the 1933 film is
he is he's terrified by modernculture, right? He climbs that
(07:57):
building to escape from thenoise and of New York.
Cary Elza (08:03):
I mean, if you re watch this movie, it's so
blindingly obvious that CarlDenham, the filmmaker and all of
his all of his colonialistinvaders, right. All of all of
the the the quote unquoteexplorers who come to Skull
Island shouldn't be there. And Imean, that was one thing that
was just blindingly obvious tome as I was rewatching this and
(08:24):
trying to explain to smallchildren to I'm like, Okay,
guys, these people are stickingtheir noses where they don't
belong, there's going to beconsequences. They should leave
this island alone. They have nobusiness here and so I you know,
I was kind of trying to get thatnarrative across to the kids
because the movie doesn't makethat clear, right that there
(08:44):
shouldn't be there. instead bebrings back calm to New York and
Kong is like chained uphorrifically at this, you know,
a big gala, theater opening. Andthe thing that sets him off is
flashbulbs. It's moderntechnology that drives him
crazy. All right, and he justtries to escape. Yep,
Shanny Luft (09:05):
the the thing that connects the original King Kong
and this recent movie iscapitalism, right? capitalism
drives the desire to to bringKing Kong to New York because
he's going to be a anattraction. And the new movie is
about this internationalcorporation.
Valerie Barske (09:21):
There's a kind of megalomaniac thing to the to
the Damian Bashir characterhimself, because he's like,
there's a moment where he'slike, I'm in control of all it's
not about right, you know? Yes,there's a component of saying
that corporations are trying todo good, there's some right but
there's somethingindividualistic, there's
(09:42):
something true neoliberal abouthim. All that capitalism, we are
these homo economicus, right? Weare defined by our capitalist
culture and we cannot disconnectfrom them. And we're not linked
in community because of that.
Right is the ultimate kind ofneoliberal evil because it
somehow ties back to his ownindividual, his own family, his
(10:03):
own right, his daughtersinvolved in this as a scientist,
there's something megalomaniacabout him. And just as we were
thinking about Hong Kong, maybethat's the thing that they don't
have this fight in New York,both of these animals have
characters, these kaiju havebeen in New York before the 1998
Matthew Broderick Godzilla isridiculous. They don't meet
(10:24):
there this time, though. Theymeet in the ocean, and then they
meet in Hong Kong, which isbeing raised up as the ultimate
kind of linchpin in not justquestions of democracy. But what
is the role of capitalism movingforward? Right. And it has
always been this odd space,where, you know, the the
Communist Party in China can canbenefit financially from a full
(10:44):
capitalistic example, but wantsto limit democratic rights.
Cary Elza (10:49):
Yeah. And there's also more than a little of john
Hammond to Jurassic Park, right?
That, like, we're gonna createthis thing. And that I mean,
that's classic, classic, right,is we're gonna create this thing
that we have control over to itand and no, no, you don't have
control over it. As soon as youcreate it, it's gonna have its
(11:12):
own control over itself. Stop.
hubris, hubris, always.
Shanny Luft (11:19):
hubris is a constant theme in the kangkong
films. And it's a theme in thisfilm as well.
Valerie Barske (11:23):
The 1950s Japanese one also had some
interesting human things goingon that I'm not sure I see in
this film, like, Where's thedevelopment of human
relationships, it's kind offlat. In the original, there's
this whole thing that thatactually American filmmakers
weren't sure would translate ortransliterate well into an
American cultural context, theidea of an arranged marriage
(11:44):
versus like an AI based a lovebased, you know, she didn't want
to be with this person that shewas botros to and was expected
to marry because of an arrangedmarriage. So I'm missing a
little bit of these contemporarymovies that I wanted a little of
that romance. And maybe becauseit's Honda was was actually a
romantic film director. He hasthat piece but I do feel this
(12:08):
movies a bit flat on the humandevelopment, like what is going
on with any of these people intheir lives? The character
Madison and her father, youdon't get too much development
of, I don't know, I wanted somehumans. To do more.
Shanny Luft (12:22):
Let's talk about this human beings that get stuck
in the story because there'slike two or three different kind
of human plots that arehappening at the same time.
Right there's the Millie BobbyBrown relationship with her
father. And she knows the truthbecause she's listening to this
podcast where a guy is spreadingconspiracy theories. All right,
(12:45):
it is so uncovered I feel likethe movie is really missing the
this current moment bypresenting the crazy conspiracy
theory guy as like the only onewho knows the truth, the only
one who can communicate thetruth that doesn't seem to fit
with the moment right now.
Cary Elza (13:01):
Yeah, but it it jives with the earlier Godzilla movies
because Bryan Cranston playedthat same role. You know, nobody
believed Bryan Cranston, thereis the existence of these giant
beasts. No one believed johnGoodman and the King Kong movie.
No one ever believes you thatthey're giant beasts. And that's
(13:25):
a trope of all the monstersgenres, like even the the
American films of the 1950s. Youknow, nobody believes that
they're giant monsters untilthey see it with their own eyes.
And so conspiracies and provingthat conspiracies are true is a
thing that we see in all thesemovies. But yes, absolutely. It
(13:46):
feels incredibly uncomfortablethat he, you know, that he has
infiltrated Apex that he has,you know, that he's, he's, he's
putting out this podcast, he'sgot this website, he, you know,
he has the, the house with theclippings that are connected by
yarn. He's Fox Mulder, right.
He's he, this is the same sortof X Files conspiracy theory
(14:06):
romanticization. of, of thisfigure that we've seen for many,
many years, the romanticizing ofthis figure and their dog in
tenacious pursuit of the truthis arguably the thing that has
led us to this moment to cue tothe whole concept that somebody
(14:28):
has the truth somebody isembedded somebody knows. And if
we can only piece together theclues, we will have that same
information and be able to actupon it. This has been going on
for a long time conspiracytheory, but I would have liked I
would like to see less of theromanticizing and that
Shanny Luft (14:51):
was what makes me most uncomfortable. This movie
is not the conspiracy theoryitself. The thing that makes me
more uncomfortable than that inthis movie is the solution. to
that problem, because it'salways find the guy who runs the
corporation and kill them, andthen type in the password that,
you know, turns offmechagodzilla. It's the
solutions are always verysimple. Whereas in reality, our
(15:13):
real solutions are reallycomplicated. I feel like part of
the fantasy of these movies isthey suggest really simple
solutions to intractableproblems. The solutions are the
individual the personal ratherthan stomach. Right? Which lots
harder, right? But yeah,
Valerie Barske (15:31):
the Life magazine, one that I I bought,
the special issue that came outis the Life magazine for
Godzilla. And the ending isthis, it talks a little bit
about the issue of climatechange and global warming. And
it says, alas, there are nocivilization saving secret
weapons in real life. Right,exactly that feeling that you're
(15:51):
that you're saying, right? It'snot so easy that you could just
build something or find it, youknow, get rid of mechagodzilla.
And then you're fine, right?
Like, I think but maybe, maybethat's also a point, right?
Maybe the point is to say, yeah,we can do this in these
fictional worlds. But we can'treally imagine that in our real
world.
Cary Elza (16:10):
There's also this fantasy to that there is this
fast underground conspiracy,Corporation, government collab,
whatever, that has enough moneyresources, know how an
organization to be able todefeat something. So I'm
thinking about, like thebeginning of the movie, when we
(16:31):
see that like, comes on SkullIsland, taking a shower and
everything, and he throws likethe tree sphere up and you're
like, wow, it's a giant dome.
And then media thing that Ithought it's like, how expensive
is that dome? For that dome, andso we do have these fantasies
that our tax dollars are goingtowards something that perhaps
if this planet explodes, maybethere's arcs, I don't know,
(16:53):
like, maybe there's undergroundground bunkers that the
government is building, we justdon't know about it. That's a
fantasy that somebody somewherecan afford the dome for King
Kong, somebody somewhere canafford that underground high
speed training thing. Like,
Shanny Luft (17:10):
I want to talk about the ending of the movie,
there's a big twist thatmechagodzilla appears he was
hidden from the promotion. Andthen Godzilla and King Kong have
to team up to defeat of evenbigger evil. So the movie is
called Godzilla vs. Kong. Butthe story is really Godzilla and
Kong coming together, puttingtheir differences aside, it's a
(17:30):
very kind of satisfying notionof of our intractable problem.
By the end of this movie,Godzilla and Kong are able to
put their differences aside forthe greater good.
Valerie Barske (17:40):
Because this is not a cold war movie. It's kind
of a question of like, what Imean, we're still in that is at
the end of history, have wereally gotten rid of the nation
has globalization replaced allthese other kinds of loyalties.
But it's not a clear dichotomy,or binary, as like a Cold War
setup was because in theoriginal American version of
(18:03):
Godzilla, it wasn't theAmericans using the H bomb. It
was also like the Soviet rightthere was like a push against
like Soviet h bomb testing. So Ithink in this there's what we're
seeing is that simplicity ismore complex, right? It's not
just this nice buy an area ofit's not really a versus
Shanny Luft (18:23):
the last half an hour of the movie, you're very
satisfying. Right? First of all,you get to see the fantasy
Godzilla Kong, there been acouple of times when Godzilla
and King Kong have fought eachother. This one is the most
technologically advanced, theyou got to see just building
after building getting wipedout, all I could think about was
a child playing with toys, anine year old who has a toy
(18:45):
Godzilla and a toy Kong, andjust smashes them against each
other. And the consequences areirrelevant. It's just fun to
watch giant things, punch eachother and destroy and you know,
an entire city scape. And thenon top of that, you get them
putting their differences asideto fight an even more dangerous
threat. Right, they can see ineach other, that their lifelong
(19:09):
struggle is something they couldput aside. You know what it
reminded me of when I waswatching the movie with my wife,
I started calling out lines fromrocky for when Sylvester
Stallone fights the Russianrocky gives this speech about
how he recognizes the humanityof the Russian people. This
movie reminded me of that,
Valerie Barske (19:28):
but it's raising that issue of like, what kind of
world system really has replacedthe Cold War dichotomy situate?
Yeah, so in this interjectingHong Kong in this and asking
like, okay, you know, China'svery soon going to have most
likely the largest economy inthe world. And what are we going
to do with that? If this is acritique of capitalism, or the
(19:51):
particular neoliberal version ofit? Who is the enemy like? Well,
I don't know. There's someinteresting parallels to that if
I was playing in those kind ofimagine onra of critique,
Cary Elza (20:01):
I think that that's a good point that this is playing,
right. So this, that's whatanimation does, right? And we
can, we can like talk about thismovie until we're blue in the
face as if it's a live actionmovie. But this is mostly an
animated movie. And animationhas this ability to create
(20:21):
these, these kind of unlimitedplay worlds that we can mess
around with all of these socialissues. And the only image the
only limit right is ourimagination. But it's also fun,
we can mess around with all ofthese all of these incredibly
important political, economic,social issues. But at the end of
the day, it's also just fun tosee these big beasts crashing
(20:45):
into each other and crashinginto a city that we all know
doesn't exist, right? Like we,like, we all know that this is
an entirely animated film,right? At least those sequences
are. So yeah, there's this kindof disconnect, while we're
watching where, you know, wejust kind of let go. And we're
just like, let's just, I justwant to see the world burn, just
(21:07):
let me have this for thismoment. You know,
Valerie Barske (21:10):
yeah, I really need that, that when you're
talking to Japanese terms cameup to me that the notion of our
sobey of play, and it hasn't, ithas like a deeper sense, in some
cultural context, where it tiesto like, religious ritual, but
also like sexual pleasure,right? Like the play is really
quite important. And so when youwere saying that, um, like a
(21:30):
course, right, we're supposed toenjoy this. And the other thing,
the animated parts, right, theCGI, but also just straight up
and, you know, animations thatare happening, the notion of
anime in Japanese is coming froma notion of animism back, older,
sort of shamanistic Shintopractices that anything can have
a spirit. Right. And so there'ssomething powerful to that, too,
(21:52):
that ties that notion, theanimism to sob and play. I think
it's supposed to be a bit. Notjust cathartic, but right. Maybe
it is cathartic. It's a relief.
It's just come in this space andenjoy it. I've missed the
spectacle experience of watchingthings together with people,
right. And so yeah, for me, thatwas the high end of doing this,
(22:13):
but just being with a person andenjoying that kind of spectacle,
I first saw
Cary Elza (22:20):
Godzilla King of the Monsters in the theater, you
know, a couple of summers ago,and it just loved it. Like I
didn't, I didn't think logicallythat this is a this is a very
well made well written moviethat I'm watching. But I was
like, This is great. And I yeah,that experience is so important
when it comes to big movies likethis. It's how we all like, get
(22:42):
together to have kind ofcathartic release. I completely
agree.
Shanny Luft (22:46):
And this movie, I one of the things I've noticed
about it in some reading some ofthe articles is how often
critics comment on the fact thatthis movie is doing really well
in the theaters, right? I mean,not well, compared to pre COVID.
Well, but compared to any moviethat came out in 2020, or 2021.
People want to go see a movie,where giant things are
(23:09):
destroyed, and there is noconsequence. There's no, there's
no emotional intensity, butthere is kind of an emotional
release. Right of the play.
Valerie's talking about the playof watching things get blown up.
Valerie Barske (23:21):
Great, big monsters you want to see on a
big screen? Yeah, exactly. Well,and also, you know, perhaps Apex
is involved in getting thevaccines out faster? I don't
know, right? From the timingthat it comes out, right, like
people are actually back in thetheaters more and for me, I keep
coming back to maybe it'sbecause I'm also an
anthropologist who traces kindof life histories. I feel like
(23:43):
you can trace certainly Godzillabut perhaps also King Kong
throughout like an individualperson's life. You can you can
graph it onto the life storieswe've been telling about
nations, right. As a Japanscholar, I'm brought into that
it's been really popular in myfield to write about this. And
so I think that's what it wasexciting about coming back to
Godzilla again, I've been usingGodzilla in my teaching of Japan
(24:04):
for a long time, where wewatched the original digitally
remastered the the 1954. Wewatched it in 2014. And I paid
to show it in the DC theater.
And it was just such a coolexperience. Students went to the
archives and foundrepresentations of nuclear
anxiety in our archives locally,we had a map of of Wisconsin and
where there might be places wewere worried about if there was
(24:27):
a nuclear fallout. So at everypoint, I just feel like it's
really exciting for me to makethese connections even if
they're very personal andsubjective. That personal
subjective way in which you canlatch on to a film exit powerful
makes it fun. Speak to you I wasplaying with King Kong a little
bit there was a king kong thatcame out in 76 by do dilaurentis
like I was born in 76. Like Ijust feel like the movie
(24:52):
watching experience has to speakto me personally somehow and
even if I'm not a sci fi personor a kaiju person I in this
moment, this definitely spoke tome. I remembers the the original
King Kong ride at UniversalStudios and that that was a part
of my childhood but my
Cary Elza (25:14):
you know, my dad showed me this film, the
original King Kong when I was akid, too, and I'm sure he
probably explained about therisks, too. But it I mean, it
was a part of King Kong wasprobably a little bit more a
part of my childhood thanGodzilla was but all of the
American monster movies were allof those 19 My dad was was a
(25:35):
Cold War historian. Book Russianand, and so so the cold, cold
war inflected films were verybig in my house. So I have this
personal connection to thesemovies too. And I completely
agree with what you're sayinghere.
Shanny Luft (25:50):
Carrie Elsa and Valerie Barsky, I had been
looking for this conversationfor a month. I'm really
grateful. Thank you so much fortalking to me.
Valerie Barske (25:57):
I'm just grateful to be here. I listened
to some of your other ones. Itwas really amazing. I think it's
really fun. I think this is likewhat we should be doing to show
that sense of kind of LiberalArts curiosity. I think it's
great.
Unknown (26:09):
Yes, absolutely. Complete Laura, do
more.
Shanny Luft (26:12):
I will definitely keep doing it. Thank you so
much. And I hope you both comeback and talk to me about other
stuff. Thank you I would loveto.
Gretel Stock (26:21):
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You know what it reminded me of when I was
(00:01):
watching the movie with my wife.
I started calling out lines fromrocky for when Sylvester
Stallone fights the RussianWelcome to no cure for
curiosity. I am Shanny Luft,Associate Dean of general
education at UW SP, and I'm alsoa professor of religious
studies. Today's episodecontinues the conversation I had
with Valerie barska and CarrieElza. If you don't know who they
(00:23):
are, you should check out ourprevious episode first. Our
conversation was so far ranging,it could not be contained in one
episode. The part of ourconversation you'll hear today
focus mostly on Godzilla vs.
Kong, which came out in 2021.
Godzilla vs. Kong as part of alarger monsterverse series of
films. The connected films areGodzilla, which came out in
(00:45):
2014, then kong skull island in2017, Godzilla King of the
Monsters in 2019, and that allled up to Godzilla vs. Kong,
which came out in March 2021. Wetalked about the recent film in
the context of the earlierGodzilla and Kong films, as well
as the contemporary themes fromthe new movie. I hope you enjoy
our conversation as much as Ihad having this Godzilla movie
(01:07):
does not feel like the even thelast Godzilla movie. It's even
in the filming, for example, inthe last Godzilla movie, which
is part of this same universe,the one the Bryan Cranston one,
much of the shots of Godzillaare from the perspective of
human beings you spend a lot oftime in the movie looking up at
(01:29):
a walking skyscraper monster andexperiencing it from the ground
level of people. And this moviethat seems to be gone most of
the people are removed so thatit's just a battle royale
Cary Elza (01:43):
the I feel that so I you know, I rewatched half of
the 2014 Godzilla and you'reright scale is played with an a
different way here than it wasthere. But I'm getting the same
kind of kind of Avengers MCUflavor here in that different
kind of different personalities.
different properties in thisfranchise are going to have
(02:06):
different tones to them. So KingKong seems to be a little looser
to me. The King Kong movies seemto be, I don't know, a little
sillier. A little IndianaJonesy. Yeah, that tone gets
brought into this movie likethis movie open. With King Kong,
right, like taking a shower anda waterfall. The use of music is
(02:32):
interesting. And he scratcheshis butt. Yeah, it feels it
feels different. And I will addthat if you haven't seen the the
kong skull island that came outthat movies awesome. That movie
is really fun. I mean, it haslike like these other films,
(02:54):
they spare absolutely no expensein the act. They they hire
everybody that they can possiblyget their hands on. So the
acting is pretty, pretty solid.
Um, they john C. Reilly is inthat movie playing like a goofy
pilot who has crashed and hasbeen living with the people for
(03:15):
30 years since World War Two,the whole thing is set and like
it right at the end of theVietnam War. And they they every
other scene has an incrediblyexpensive song that they had to
license. So it is a it's a kindof a fun and loose movie. And
and I see some of that, youknow, because these you can take
(03:39):
come Godzilla versus Kong, wecan kind of like separate into
these two zones, right? Thesetwo teams that are kind of
associated with each monster,and the the Kong the Kong stuff
has a different flavor. It'smore it's more like adventury
and it speaks to the originalmurine Cooper Erna showed a sack
movie. And the Godzilla stuffseems more deadly serious to me,
(04:03):
honestly. Yeah, so those twotones mix just like in the
Avengers movie like the tone ofThor mixes with tone of, of, you
know, Iron Man. And so thesedifferent tones all kind of meld
together in interesting ways.
Shanny Luft (04:21):
They kind of sense each other. Right? Godzilla and
Kong. They don't even have tohear each other see each other.
They know when the other onesaround. You were saying earlier
radar. Yeah, yes. their identityis fight the other title, right.
That's their primary goal inlife is to just destroy each
other. You even get the senseCongos to like the middle of the
(04:42):
earth and then picks up thatYeah, talk about that. What's
going on in hollow earth like Iyeah, it's like implied that
this war between these monstersis like generational. Right
there was like an ancient Kongfighting an ancient Godzilla. I
don't care. What did you thinkabout that Middle Earth stuff.
Cary Elza (04:59):
There's You know, there's this trend and in cinema
that we must constantly tie ourmonsters back to something
ancient, we must feel rooted. Wemust discover the roots that we
did not know that we had no timethat we all feel unmoored.
Right. That's new. This scepterand the or whatever it is, um,
(05:24):
and and and this this idea thatthere's a throne and there's
they're they've been fightingfrom for millennia or something.
So that's all I got, right?
Like, we all want to feelrooted. We all want to feel like
our problems are connected toproblems that have been
happening and, and we we are, weare connected to our ancestors.
I don't know. I don't know. ButI do have. Oh, go ahead. Go
(05:45):
ahead.
Shanny Luft (05:47):
I was gonna say all these monsters are apex
predators, right, Carrie thepoint of King Kong even from
1933 is he is the biggest badassmonster on Skull Island. Right?
That's why you kind of want himon your side. Godzilla from the
1960s is literally called Kingof the Monsters right their
status as the biggest badassmonster is it for each of them
(06:08):
is part of their identity. Andthat's true on Skull Island.
That's true in you know, thatlittle Middle Earth section.
right that is like Kong'sKingdom even has like a throne
that he sits on to communicatethat he his ancestry was the
apex predator of this hollowEarth world. I did enjoy those
(06:29):
effects though. The
Cary Elza (06:31):
Inception little Inception bit where they like
jump from one side to the other.
Yeah, I thought that was great.
I didn't I didn't see thatuncommon the strangeness of
gravity and I thought that was anice touch. That was
Valerie Barske (06:44):
cool. And I like the there's something picking up
on what Kerry saying aboutwanting to have links our
ancestors, Shani, you and I keptusing the word home, you know,
he's home. Right? He's likeswinging through stuff. And he
feels like he's well at the endtoo. There's like a going home
and they sing. All I need is theair that I breathe air to love
(07:06):
you right? Like there's beensomething about and maybe
that's, that's giving to wherewe are right now in this current
current global pandemicsituation that this longing for
those roots, but I I actuallyreally enjoyed of all the scenes
I think I really enjoyed theHollow Earth scenes quite quite
a lot. Just on therepresentations there. This kind
of scepter of Maybe it comesfrom one of the biking dinosaur
(07:28):
parts of Godzilla. I don't knowI was really taken in by that
Shanny Luft (07:33):
they you know what struck me watching them this new
movie is King Kong is alwaysabout home. Right? Skull Island
is His home is and the whatdrives the plot is removing him
from the land in which he'scomfortable. Right? When he goes
to New York, the reason hefreaks out in the 1933 film is
he is he's terrified by modernculture, right? He climbs that
(07:57):
building to escape from thenoise and of New York.
Cary Elza (08:03):
I mean, if you re watch this movie, it's so
blindingly obvious that CarlDenham, the filmmaker and all of
his all of his colonialistinvaders, right. All of all of
the the the quote unquoteexplorers who come to Skull
Island shouldn't be there. And Imean, that was one thing that
was just blindingly obvious tome as I was rewatching this and
(08:24):
trying to explain to smallchildren to I'm like, Okay,
guys, these people are stickingtheir noses where they don't
belong, there's going to beconsequences. They should leave
this island alone. They have nobusiness here and so I you know,
I was kind of trying to get thatnarrative across to the kids
because the movie doesn't makethat clear, right that there
(08:44):
shouldn't be there. instead bebrings back calm to New York and
Kong is like chained uphorrifically at this, you know,
a big gala, theater opening. Andthe thing that sets him off is
flashbulbs. It's moderntechnology that drives him
crazy. All right, and he justtries to escape. Yep,
Shanny Luft (09:05):
the the thing that connects the original King Kong
and this recent movie iscapitalism, right? capitalism
drives the desire to to bringKing Kong to New York because
he's going to be a anattraction. And the new movie is
about this internationalcorporation.
Valerie Barske (09:21):
There's a kind of megalomaniac thing to the to
the Damian Bashir characterhimself, because he's like,
there's a moment where he'slike, I'm in control of all it's
not about right, you know? Yes,there's a component of saying
that corporations are trying todo good, there's some right but
there's somethingindividualistic, there's
(09:42):
something true neoliberal abouthim. All that capitalism, we are
these homo economicus, right? Weare defined by our capitalist
culture and we cannot disconnectfrom them. And we're not linked
in community because of that.
Right is the ultimate kind ofneoliberal evil because it
somehow ties back to his ownindividual, his own family, his
(10:03):
own right, his daughtersinvolved in this as a scientist,
there's something megalomaniacabout him. And just as we were
thinking about Hong Kong, maybethat's the thing that they don't
have this fight in New York,both of these animals have
characters, these kaiju havebeen in New York before the 1998
Matthew Broderick Godzilla isridiculous. They don't meet
(10:24):
there this time, though. Theymeet in the ocean, and then they
meet in Hong Kong, which isbeing raised up as the ultimate
kind of linchpin in not justquestions of democracy. But what
is the role of capitalism movingforward? Right. And it has
always been this odd space,where, you know, the the
Communist Party in China can canbenefit financially from a full
(10:44):
capitalistic example, but wantsto limit democratic rights.
Cary Elza (10:49):
Yeah. And there's also more than a little of john
Hammond to Jurassic Park, right?
That, like, we're gonna createthis thing. And that I mean,
that's classic, classic, right,is we're gonna create this thing
that we have control over to itand and no, no, you don't have
control over it. As soon as youcreate it, it's gonna have its
(11:12):
own control over itself. Stop.
hubris, hubris, always.
Shanny Luft (11:19):
hubris is a constant theme in the kangkong
films. And it's a theme in thisfilm as well.
Valerie Barske (11:23):
The 1950s Japanese one also had some
interesting human things goingon that I'm not sure I see in
this film, like, Where's thedevelopment of human
relationships, it's kind offlat. In the original, there's
this whole thing that thatactually American filmmakers
weren't sure would translate ortransliterate well into an
American cultural context, theidea of an arranged marriage
(11:44):
versus like an AI based a lovebased, you know, she didn't want
to be with this person that shewas botros to and was expected
to marry because of an arrangedmarriage. So I'm missing a
little bit of these contemporarymovies that I wanted a little of
that romance. And maybe becauseit's Honda was was actually a
romantic film director. He hasthat piece but I do feel this
(12:08):
movies a bit flat on the humandevelopment, like what is going
on with any of these people intheir lives? The character
Madison and her father, youdon't get too much development
of, I don't know, I wanted somehumans. To do more.
Shanny Luft (12:22):
Let's talk about this human beings that get stuck
in the story because there'slike two or three different kind
of human plots that arehappening at the same time.
Right there's the Millie BobbyBrown relationship with her
father. And she knows the truthbecause she's listening to this
podcast where a guy is spreadingconspiracy theories. All right,
(12:45):
it is so uncovered I feel likethe movie is really missing the
this current moment bypresenting the crazy conspiracy
theory guy as like the only onewho knows the truth, the only
one who can communicate thetruth that doesn't seem to fit
with the moment right now.
Cary Elza (13:01):
Yeah, but it it jives with the earlier Godzilla movies
because Bryan Cranston playedthat same role. You know, nobody
believed Bryan Cranston, thereis the existence of these giant
beasts. No one believed johnGoodman and the King Kong movie.
No one ever believes you thatthey're giant beasts. And that's
(13:25):
a trope of all the monstersgenres, like even the the
American films of the 1950s. Youknow, nobody believes that
they're giant monsters untilthey see it with their own eyes.
And so conspiracies and provingthat conspiracies are true is a
thing that we see in all thesemovies. But yes, absolutely. It
(13:46):
feels incredibly uncomfortablethat he, you know, that he has
infiltrated Apex that he has,you know, that he's, he's, he's
putting out this podcast, he'sgot this website, he, you know,
he has the, the house with theclippings that are connected by
yarn. He's Fox Mulder, right.
He's he, this is the same sortof X Files conspiracy theory
(14:06):
romanticization. of, of thisfigure that we've seen for many,
many years, the romanticizing ofthis figure and their dog in
tenacious pursuit of the truthis arguably the thing that has
led us to this moment to cue tothe whole concept that somebody
(14:28):
has the truth somebody isembedded somebody knows. And if
we can only piece together theclues, we will have that same
information and be able to actupon it. This has been going on
for a long time conspiracytheory, but I would have liked I
would like to see less of theromanticizing and that
Shanny Luft (14:51):
was what makes me most uncomfortable. This movie
is not the conspiracy theoryitself. The thing that makes me
more uncomfortable than that inthis movie is the solution. to
that problem, because it'salways find the guy who runs the
corporation and kill them, andthen type in the password that,
you know, turns offmechagodzilla. It's the
solutions are always verysimple. Whereas in reality, our
(15:13):
real solutions are reallycomplicated. I feel like part of
the fantasy of these movies isthey suggest really simple
solutions to intractableproblems. The solutions are the
individual the personal ratherthan stomach. Right? Which lots
harder, right? But yeah,
Valerie Barske (15:31):
the Life magazine, one that I I bought,
the special issue that came outis the Life magazine for
Godzilla. And the ending isthis, it talks a little bit
about the issue of climatechange and global warming. And
it says, alas, there are nocivilization saving secret
weapons in real life. Right,exactly that feeling that you're
(15:51):
that you're saying, right? It'snot so easy that you could just
build something or find it, youknow, get rid of mechagodzilla.
And then you're fine, right?
Like, I think but maybe, maybethat's also a point, right?
Maybe the point is to say, yeah,we can do this in these
fictional worlds. But we can'treally imagine that in our real
world.
Cary Elza (16:10):
There's also this fantasy to that there is this
fast underground conspiracy,Corporation, government collab,
whatever, that has enough moneyresources, know how an
organization to be able todefeat something. So I'm
thinking about, like thebeginning of the movie, when we
(16:31):
see that like, comes on SkullIsland, taking a shower and
everything, and he throws likethe tree sphere up and you're
like, wow, it's a giant dome.
And then media thing that Ithought it's like, how expensive
is that dome? For that dome, andso we do have these fantasies
that our tax dollars are goingtowards something that perhaps
if this planet explodes, maybethere's arcs, I don't know,
(16:53):
like, maybe there's undergroundground bunkers that the
government is building, we justdon't know about it. That's a
fantasy that somebody somewherecan afford the dome for King
Kong, somebody somewhere canafford that underground high
speed training thing. Like,
Shanny Luft (17:10):
I want to talk about the ending of the movie,
there's a big twist thatmechagodzilla appears he was
hidden from the promotion. Andthen Godzilla and King Kong have
to team up to defeat of evenbigger evil. So the movie is
called Godzilla vs. Kong. Butthe story is really Godzilla and
Kong coming together, puttingtheir differences aside, it's a
(17:30):
very kind of satisfying notionof of our intractable problem.
By the end of this movie,Godzilla and Kong are able to
put their differences aside forthe greater good.
Valerie Barske (17:40):
Because this is not a cold war movie. It's kind
of a question of like, what Imean, we're still in that is at
the end of history, have wereally gotten rid of the nation
has globalization replaced allthese other kinds of loyalties.
But it's not a clear dichotomy,or binary, as like a Cold War
setup was because in theoriginal American version of
(18:03):
Godzilla, it wasn't theAmericans using the H bomb. It
was also like the Soviet rightthere was like a push against
like Soviet h bomb testing. So Ithink in this there's what we're
seeing is that simplicity ismore complex, right? It's not
just this nice buy an area ofit's not really a versus
Shanny Luft (18:23):
the last half an hour of the movie, you're very
satisfying. Right? First of all,you get to see the fantasy
Godzilla Kong, there been acouple of times when Godzilla
and King Kong have fought eachother. This one is the most
technologically advanced, theyou got to see just building
after building getting wipedout, all I could think about was
a child playing with toys, anine year old who has a toy
(18:45):
Godzilla and a toy Kong, andjust smashes them against each
other. And the consequences areirrelevant. It's just fun to
watch giant things, punch eachother and destroy and you know,
an entire city scape. And thenon top of that, you get them
putting their differences asideto fight an even more dangerous
threat. Right, they can see ineach other, that their lifelong
(19:09):
struggle is something they couldput aside. You know what it
reminded me of when I waswatching the movie with my wife,
I started calling out lines fromrocky for when Sylvester
Stallone fights the Russianrocky gives this speech about
how he recognizes the humanityof the Russian people. This
movie reminded me of that,
Valerie Barske (19:28):
but it's raising that issue of like, what kind of
world system really has replacedthe Cold War dichotomy situate?
Yeah, so in this interjectingHong Kong in this and asking
like, okay, you know, China'svery soon going to have most
likely the largest economy inthe world. And what are we going
to do with that? If this is acritique of capitalism, or the
(19:51):
particular neoliberal version ofit? Who is the enemy like? Well,
I don't know. There's someinteresting parallels to that if
I was playing in those kind ofimagine onra of critique,
Cary Elza (20:01):
I think that that's a good point that this is playing,
right. So this, that's whatanimation does, right? And we
can, we can like talk about thismovie until we're blue in the
face as if it's a live actionmovie. But this is mostly an
animated movie. And animationhas this ability to create
(20:21):
these, these kind of unlimitedplay worlds that we can mess
around with all of these socialissues. And the only image the
only limit right is ourimagination. But it's also fun,
we can mess around with all ofthese all of these incredibly
important political, economic,social issues. But at the end of
the day, it's also just fun tosee these big beasts crashing
(20:45):
into each other and crashinginto a city that we all know
doesn't exist, right? Like we,like, we all know that this is
an entirely animated film,right? At least those sequences
are. So yeah, there's this kindof disconnect, while we're
watching where, you know, wejust kind of let go. And we're
just like, let's just, I justwant to see the world burn, just
(21:07):
let me have this for thismoment. You know,
Valerie Barske (21:10):
yeah, I really need that, that when you're
talking to Japanese terms cameup to me that the notion of our
sobey of play, and it hasn't, ithas like a deeper sense, in some
cultural context, where it tiesto like, religious ritual, but
also like sexual pleasure,right? Like the play is really
quite important. And so when youwere saying that, um, like a
(21:30):
course, right, we're supposed toenjoy this. And the other thing,
the animated parts, right, theCGI, but also just straight up
and, you know, animations thatare happening, the notion of
anime in Japanese is coming froma notion of animism back, older,
sort of shamanistic Shintopractices that anything can have
a spirit. Right. And so there'ssomething powerful to that, too,
(21:52):
that ties that notion, theanimism to sob and play. I think
it's supposed to be a bit. Notjust cathartic, but right. Maybe
it is cathartic. It's a relief.
It's just come in this space andenjoy it. I've missed the
spectacle experience of watchingthings together with people,
right. And so yeah, for me, thatwas the high end of doing this,
(22:13):
but just being with a person andenjoying that kind of spectacle,
I first saw
Cary Elza (22:20):
Godzilla King of the Monsters in the theater, you
know, a couple of summers ago,and it just loved it. Like I
didn't, I didn't think logicallythat this is a this is a very
well made well written moviethat I'm watching. But I was
like, This is great. And I yeah,that experience is so important
when it comes to big movies likethis. It's how we all like, get
(22:42):
together to have kind ofcathartic release. I completely
agree.
Shanny Luft (22:46):
And this movie, I one of the things I've noticed
about it in some reading some ofthe articles is how often
critics comment on the fact thatthis movie is doing really well
in the theaters, right? I mean,not well, compared to pre COVID.
Well, but compared to any moviethat came out in 2020, or 2021.
People want to go see a movie,where giant things are
(23:09):
destroyed, and there is noconsequence. There's no, there's
no emotional intensity, butthere is kind of an emotional
release. Right of the play.
Valerie's talking about the playof watching things get blown up.
Valerie Barske (23:21):
Great, big monsters you want to see on a
big screen? Yeah, exactly. Well,and also, you know, perhaps Apex
is involved in getting thevaccines out faster? I don't
know, right? From the timingthat it comes out, right, like
people are actually back in thetheaters more and for me, I keep
coming back to maybe it'sbecause I'm also an
anthropologist who traces kindof life histories. I feel like
(23:43):
you can trace certainly Godzillabut perhaps also King Kong
throughout like an individualperson's life. You can you can
graph it onto the life storieswe've been telling about
nations, right. As a Japanscholar, I'm brought into that
it's been really popular in myfield to write about this. And
so I think that's what it wasexciting about coming back to
Godzilla again, I've been usingGodzilla in my teaching of Japan
(24:04):
for a long time, where wewatched the original digitally
remastered the the 1954. Wewatched it in 2014. And I paid
to show it in the DC theater.
And it was just such a coolexperience. Students went to the
archives and foundrepresentations of nuclear
anxiety in our archives locally,we had a map of of Wisconsin and
where there might be places wewere worried about if there was
(24:27):
a nuclear fallout. So at everypoint, I just feel like it's
really exciting for me to makethese connections even if
they're very personal andsubjective. That personal
subjective way in which you canlatch on to a film exit powerful
makes it fun. Speak to you I wasplaying with King Kong a little
bit there was a king kong thatcame out in 76 by do dilaurentis
like I was born in 76. Like Ijust feel like the movie
(24:52):
watching experience has to speakto me personally somehow and
even if I'm not a sci fi personor a kaiju person I in this
moment, this definitely spoke tome. I remembers the the original
King Kong ride at UniversalStudios and that that was a part
of my childhood but my
Cary Elza (25:14):
you know, my dad showed me this film, the
original King Kong when I was akid, too, and I'm sure he
probably explained about therisks, too. But it I mean, it
was a part of King Kong wasprobably a little bit more a
part of my childhood thanGodzilla was but all of the
American monster movies were allof those 19 My dad was was a
(25:35):
Cold War historian. Book Russianand, and so so the cold, cold
war inflected films were verybig in my house. So I have this
personal connection to thesemovies too. And I completely
agree with what you're sayinghere.
Shanny Luft (25:50):
Carrie Elsa and Valerie Barsky, I had been
looking for this conversationfor a month. I'm really
grateful. Thank you so much fortalking to me.
Valerie Barske (25:57):
I'm just grateful to be here. I listened
to some of your other ones. Itwas really amazing. I think it's
really fun. I think this is likewhat we should be doing to show
that sense of kind of LiberalArts curiosity. I think it's
great.
Unknown (26:09):
Yes, absolutely. Complete Laura, do
more.
Shanny Luft (26:12):
I will definitely keep doing it. Thank you so
much. And I hope you both comeback and talk to me about other
stuff. Thank you I would loveto.
Gretel Stock (26:21):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated, intentional and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
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