September 19, 2021 • 24 mins
Shanny talks with Kimiko Matsumura, an art historian, and Chad Seales, a scholar of religion and culture, about Lizzo and the video for "Rumors." Why was the video set in an ancient Greek and Roman visual world? How does the song and video reflect Lizzo's message of body positivity? And did Cardi B have her baby yet?! All this and more is covered on today's episode.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chad Seales (00:00):
I feel like I'm much more knowledgeable at the
(00:01):
end of this podcast than it wasat the beginning.
Shanny Luft (00:10):
Thank you for listening to no cure for
curiosity, a podcast for curiouspeople. In today's episode, we
are curious about Lizzo andCardi B's summer song Rumors. If
you don't know the song, andespecially if you haven't seen
the video, do yourself a favorand watch the video now and then
come back for this conversation.
This episode was suggested byKimiko Matsumura, an art
historian at the University ofWisconsin at Stevens Point, she
(00:33):
was struck by the videosportrayal of Lizzo and Cardi B
as Greek goddesses, andespecially the choice to put
these women into classical art,particularly ancient Greek vase
paintings. So Kimiko and I gottogether with Chad Seales, a
professor of religion at theUniversity of Texas at Austin,
and we talked about Lizzo thissong, and especially the video
for rumors, I hope you enjoy theconversation as much as we did.
Lizzo Clip (00:58):
No, I do.
They say I should watch thestuff I post, come on man. Say
I'm turning big girls into pros.
Come on, man.
Shanny Luft (01:10):
I guess I'll start with that. Well, let me let's do
introductions first. Can youstart with you tell us a little
bit about yourself?
Kimiko Matsumura (01:16):
Sure. So I am Kimiko Matsumura. I am an
Assistant Professor of ArtHistory at the University of
Wisconsin Stevens Point. And Iam really interested in modern
and contemporary art, and alsothe places where those things
intersect with popular cultureand visual culture. So I am
always thrilled when I comeacross things like Liz's music
(01:37):
video that are making thesereferences to a field that I am
teaching to students activelywhen these materials become
available.
Shanny Luft (01:46):
And the other person we've invited into the
conversation, it's Chad Seales,how you doing Chad?
Chad Seales (01:50):
Doing well, Shanny, for inviting me. I'm Chad
Seales. I'm an associateprofessor of Religious Studies
at University of Texas atAustin. And my research focuses
on American religious historyreally interested in how
religion and pop cultureConnect. I study mainly the
American South, but looking forconnections in religion and
music, and overlaps withhistories of race, and pop
(02:13):
culture with religion and filmas well.
Shanny Luft (02:15):
So first, can we talk about Lizzo for a second
what we know about her and inpreparation for talking about
this song,
Kimiko Matsumura (02:22):
I first encountered this song through
Spotify through their theircharting list, and I love her. I
haven't been a fan for as longas she's been around. But I've
been on board pretty much sinceTruth Hurts, which became
incredibly viral very quickly,and kind of skyrocketed her to
(02:42):
this realm of pop culture iconfor her interest in body
positivity for her messages ofself love, and her just
unapologetic desire to beherself in a space that is often
cultivated and marketed in verylimiting ways.
Shanny Luft (03:01):
Chad, did you know anything about Lizzo? Did you
listen to her music or knowanything about her career before
this?
Chad Seales (03:05):
Now, I'm definitely the least qualified on this
particular podcast. My area ofresearch in particular is not
obviously connected to Lizzo.
But it's really interested inwhy evangelicalism and its
musicality. It's sort of I'minterested in Bono and U2, and
how they are basicallyappropriate images of Africa and
blackness and a lot of theirwork. So hopefully we have a
conversation, maybe that sort ofmaybe contextualizes was those
(03:28):
performance in reception andrelationship to some of those
other students in pop culture aswell?
Kimiko Matsumura (03:36):
Absolutely. I think one of the most
interesting things about her asan artist is that she is kind of
built up of culturalcontradictions as we might frame
them. I mean, she is aclassically trained flutist, and
features in her music. But shemarries that to rap and r&b in a
way that very few contemporaryartists have done. And so I
(03:58):
think, for me, that kind ofdovetails with the classicism
that is inherent to thevisuality of this music, video,
and the kinds of narratives thatwe as a society have about
antiquity and classicaltraining, and the arts as spaces
of Westernness, spaces ofwhiteness, that are being
occupied and flipped andreconsidered through the lens of
(04:23):
blackness.
Shanny Luft (04:23):
The only other thing I know about Lizzo's
career is that movie Hustlersthat she was in in 2019. Right?
So she's like, not only has shebecome like a super big pop
star, but she's now like that Ithink that movie came out a year
or two ago. So now she has thisburgeoning acting career. And
the other thing that stands outto me about her is like you
said, Kimiko, her she advocatesfor body positivity. But in when
(04:47):
you see her in interviews, shealso has this like infectious
joy. Like she's, she seems sohappy and like surprised to be
where she is. She's socomfortable with herself. And so
like delighted to be be aroundother people and kind of wants
to lift people up. So as wesaid, this song Rumors just came
out August 13. So, Kimiko, whatdid you first notice when you
(05:08):
started watching Lizzo's Rumorsvideo?
Kimiko Matsumura (05:11):
From the second the video opened, I was
just blasted with art historicalreferences that I got super
excited about. Because you know,when you do a PhD for any number
of years, especially in thehumanities field, that people
don't necessarily feel like it'srelevant to their lives. It's
always exciting when you comeacross these real world cultural
(05:32):
examples where there is a realdiscussion happening with the
kinds of historical narrativesthat I spent my life studying,
Shanny Luft (05:41):
right in that video. I mean, it is like
ancient Greek, top to bottomright is it's not like a moment
or two, it's, they are dancingin urns, and on top of columns,
and in their costumes. There'snothing particular about the
song that connects it to thatvisual, but they they lean in
(06:03):
heavily on like this kind ofancient Greek world, or at least
this kind of like popularversion of an ancient Greek
world.
Kimiko Matsumura (06:10):
Yeah, so it's very much like a post modern
reinterpretation of ancientGreek references. And so for
example, within seconds of thevideo opening, you have a
reference to the ApolloBelvedere era, which is this
very famous sculpture that wasunearthed during the
Renaissance, a Roman copy of aGreek original, and the Farnese
(06:32):
a Hercules, another one of theseexamples of a copy of a Greek
original, made during the Romanperiod, and nursed again in the
Renaissance by these powerfulRenaissance families. Those two
sculptures in particular weremassively influential for
Renaissance artists as they wereconceiving of the ideal form. So
(06:53):
AI from the get go was sold.
Shanny Luft (06:55):
So why do you think the, the the
video starts off with those twofamous pieces? Is there? How
does it connect to the song orto Lyza herself or her career?
Like what do you think? Why doyou think that was a choice?
Kimiko Matsumura (07:09):
Well, I would say immediately, so the
sculptures themselves are notjust copied, they are presented
to us as plus as individuals, sothey are not within the heroic
classicism that was promulgatedby images like that, to make
these sculptures have differentbody proportions, and to be more
representative of maybecontemporary culture, I think is
(07:32):
definitely a gesture toward bodypositivity, and the uplifting
and celebration of bodies thatgo beyond these Greek ideals,
because our culture is of coursedifferent. And the kinds of
narratives we have aboutselfhood, and engaging with the
world around us are differentthan the things that the Greeks
(07:52):
believed, even as they informedour social and cultural lives
now,
Chad Seales (07:59):
yeah, I mentioned it here about like the
cultural contradictions as wellhow telling these positive
stories of up ending to thewhite supremacy of Greek the
sort of representations of, ofGreek culture, I'm really
fascinated with how that worksreally, in southern religion,
with like the stories and Birthof a Nation it ends in this
really weird toga party, inwhich they blast Greek culture
(08:20):
onto the holy land. And then itends with a marriage of a white
man and a white woman. So it'sthis like reinforcement of this
white supremacist ideals ofGreek culture. And these keep
coming up just in our everydaylife around the university with
these ideas of the great booksand who's going to teach the
(08:41):
great works. And it's veryconservative textual approach
that lends itself to a veryconservative politics so that
I'm really fascinated with thisup ending of that, and then how
other artists like Beyonce havedone similar things. I was just
interested to hear more fromCamilla to about how much of how
much of positive body image isin tension with an over
(09:01):
sexualized subject.
Kimiko Matsumura (09:05):
In terms of the sexualization of the the
content. It's reallyinteresting, because on the one
hand, Greek vase painting, whichcomes in two flavors, there's
the black figure bought vasepainting and the red figure vase
painting, the the vases wereused, often in things like the
Greek Symposium, which wasitself, you know, this fraternal
(09:27):
masculinized drinking culture.
So the vessels that they wouldbe using for these parties would
would be the the Greek vases,and the content would often be
sexual. You have these highlysexualized scenes that are I
mean, if you walk through theBritish Museum, some of them
have very lewd scenes on them.
(09:51):
So on the one hand, thesexualization in the video, I
think is well within the thecontext of Greek art. But on the
other hand, you know, there's Amuch larger, more complicated
social narrative about blacknessand sexuality.
Chad Seales (10:06):
Well, I read a Salon article about the video
and it says in a positive waythat it basically celebrates
rear ends. So it's like, not thebut it's all the way through and
and it made me think like when Iwas in seminary Well, I went
through some areas. I wasn't Idon't claim to be a seminarian,
but I was there for two years.
But the there I remember acolleague in grad school, who
was really interested in Sir MixA Lot song. I like big butts.
(10:29):
And she was saying this is apositive thing, because it's
showing a different type of bodyimage and popular culture. And
so she viewed it as a positive.
And I remember, several of theseminarian faculty were like,
we're not so sure about that.
Were they these were, you know,feminist scholars who, they they
weren't quite ready to go inthat direction.
Shanny Luft (10:52):
So there's a question about whether or not
that is, that is a move in theright direction?
Chad Seales (10:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, so Exactly. So isLizzo's video, in some ways, an
extent? Like is it carryingforth? This sort of cultural
turn? And Sir Mix A Lot? Is itbecause a woman is saying is it
no longer being objectified? Isit how is it? Is it resisting
those things? To me?
Shanny Luft (11:16):
It is a substantial difference between Sir Mix A Lot
saying I like big butts andLizzo saying, I like my big, but
it is a substantial differencein terms of one's relationship
with one's body, can we get whatwe're gonna? What do you what
are your thoughts?
Kimiko Matsumura (11:30):
So I think it can be both. On the
one hand, I think thatsexualization is the point, the
idea that bodies that areoutside of mainstream culture,
and I mean, at this point, herbody is mainstream culture. But
if we think about precedents andtraditions, the idea that bodies
that are outside of theseprecedents and traditions, that
they can be attractive, thatthey can be sexual, and have
(11:53):
sexual lives is something thatnot there hasn't been a lot of
space for in the public sphere.
And so the idea that, that shecan be sexual and be sexual on
terms that appeal to her is, is,you know, well within the
feminist reclamation of the bodyfor your own pleasure and own
(12:14):
purposes. I mean, it'scomplicated, because there are
those resonances ofinappropriate sexuality that
were pinned on black bodies likelizards. But I think the
reclamation is is really thepoint until wield it like a
weapon, I think is the thingthat makes the critique
especially especially pointed,
Chad Seales (12:34):
I guess another way to frame the question is can
Lizzo ever walk off stage? Andif and by that, I mean, can you
ever leave this performance ofherself in the video? Can't you
because you mentioned, which isa fascinating point, right along
this contradiction. She'strained as a classically
classically trained flutist. Socould she walk off this
(12:55):
particular stage of this videothat's popular onto another
stage and join an orchestra andmake a similar critique from a
different stage? So it or is theis the popularity of this video?
Is it? Can she ever leave thatparticular stage? I guess that's
what I'm asking.
Kimiko Matsumura (13:15):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the fact that she
is both this, this twerkinggoddess in this video, and a
classically trained flutist arealso just inherently part of the
complexities of well, makingmore complex identities, that
you are never just one thing andthat I think she tries to remind
(13:36):
people that she containsmultitudes. And then that way,
is is part of a narrative thatis looking to break down those
reductionist ideas of whatconstitutes black identity and
female black identity by lookingat these these cultural sources
that are not traditionallyoccupied by black women, either.
(13:57):
I mean, I think slightly relatedto this idea. I think she's
conscious of that. When sheperforms when she performed at
the Grammys, she had an allblack female orchestra behind
her. So I think she recognizesthe ways that these kinds of
classical Heritage's have beenexclusionary and is actively
(14:17):
trying to broaden our ideas ofwhat constitutes culture, but
also to remind us that we areable to be more than sexuality
to be more than artistictraining.
Chad Seales (14:31):
Yeah, that's absolutely fascinating. I didn't
know that about the all blackorchestra that she performed
with. So that juxtaposition ofwhat seems to be opposed of
classical and hip hop, puttingthose together with an all black
orchestra behind it. That soundsabsolutely fascinating and
making a visual effort tocombine all that in one place.
I'm always fascinated with howlike YouTube's Bano con-- and
(14:54):
how they constantly engaged withwhat they saw is black
musicality. but always from adistance, so they would have the
Harlem Gospel Choir behind them.
Or they have the psuedo gospelsingers behind them. And there's
a kind of caricature of anemotional blues tradition. One
of the things that Bono saysthat is absolutely crazy is like
he says this story about howwhen he went to LA in the 80s,
(15:16):
and hip hop was just breakingthat he could hear and those
sounds African music, and so he,he talks about Africans as
genetically musical. And but hismusicality there that he
imagines is one that leads tohip hop and leads to Jay Z, and
leads to the consumption of aparticular black musicality.
(15:40):
That's very, yeah, it's veryhighly commodified, and rounded
at the edges. It doesn't bringinto the conversation like the
Fisk Jubilee Singers, or itdoesn't bring into these
traditions that are likeclassical training, like you're
talking about. So I just findthat a very compelling image to
think of a black orchestrabehind Lizzo. putting that all
(16:01):
together and not not seeingthose things as separate and
apart. But as part of one biggertradition, that's multiple, a
lot of stuff going on.
Kimiko Matsumura (16:14):
Yeah, I mean, I think too the fact that she
plays the flute, I mean, like, Iplayed the flute for a hot
minute, I don't know, like sixmonths when I was 12 years old,
because it was the thing that,you know, pricy young ladies
played, and that was what I wasattracted to, when I had to pick
an instrument, the image of whoa flutist is, is very
particular. I mean, there are ifyou talk to band students, you
(16:37):
know, they have their, theirstereotypes of the kinds of
people who play each type ofinstrument and, and the idea of
this very refined proceedcompetitive flute player is
something that persists and Ithink is an immediate
contradiction on the surface ofwho she is as if we want to
phrase it just like a characterchat. I don't think you're
(16:57):
necessarily wrong. I mean,success for is a two way street.
It's not just what you'reputting out there. It's the way
that the audience is respondingto you. And it's, it's
definitely she is in a momentright now in which these kinds
of narratives of Reclamation andself making are at the forefront
of what we as a culture aretrying to do that and that makes
(17:19):
her more palatable and moreacceptable.
Shanny Luft (17:22):
So Cardi B is also in the video. She's like,
featured in it. And she'spregnant in the video, right?
That's not my imagination. Sheis pregnant, like right now.
Kimiko Matsumura (17:31):
Well, not anymore. She just had her son a
few days ago.
Shanny Luft (17:34):
Hot-breaking news podcast. Her son was just
born
Cardi B Clip (17:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Made a millionaire school.
Shanny Luft (17:45):
And and her outfit Cardi B's outfit? Like it's,
it's clearly intending to kindof celebrate her body.
Kimiko Matsumura (17:51):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I thought about this
too. I love cardio is rapidthis. It's so fun. And I guess,
you know, part of her wholetrajectory, too, has to do with
her highly sexualized narrativeand what her career was before
she was a rapper, she's verypublicly was a stripper before
she she broke out on the scene.
And she's never shied away fromthat. I guess, for me, the thing
(18:15):
that is really interesting abouther pregnancy, is that in the
context of the video, it'sanother facet of women's lives,
lives and the dimensions thatyou can hold while also, you
know, having a sex life andbeing a part of these larger
(18:36):
cultural sort of Reclamations ofbehavior. I agree with you the
costume is very it accentuatesthe bump
Chad Seales (18:45):
I guess what's cool in some ways about you know, pop
culture and these there's, likeyou're saying there's so many
cultural contradictions, as soonas the powerful messages like
gaining agency or control overthe presentation.
Kimiko Matsumura (18:55):
Yeah, Chad. I think that out of all the
elements of the video, herpregnancy is actually the
hardest thing to quantify, whichis what's kind of makes its
prominent display the thingthat's really kind of
fascinating about it.
Shanny Luft (19:07):
So I don't want this conversation to to end
without talking about Disney.
Part of the reason it caught myattention is because I teach New
Testament early Christianityclass here. When I talk to
students about and ask them whatHades is, or what they know
about it. 100% of the time, theytalk about that Hercules movie,
like every day, that's what theyknow that like when you say
(19:27):
Hades the thing a picture isthat character from that
Hercules movie, but I know it'svoices coming out of the screen.
But like that movie had a bigimpression on my students in
terms of least that character.
So I was intrigued by how whatyou saw between the connection
of that film and the rumorsvideo.
Kimiko Matsumura (19:47):
Sure. So the narrative is being told.
Basically, the narrator's of thestory are seven black women who
refer to themselves as the mediauses, and they are in the style
of Greek vase painting. And theyare all voiced by black women
(20:09):
and in skin tone andpresentation. So I think and
this is sort of the thing thatall the the pop culture press
has caught on to is that itseems like the idea was to
depict Lizzo. And her dancers,who are also a team of all black
women are varying body types, toa template that is maybe coming
(20:29):
from something like Disney'sHercules, as the narrator's of
the story, who sing their waythrough and are the fabulous and
sometimes lascivious backgroundcharacters who pursue the story.
So I think that affinity forvase painting and then also for
(20:50):
the portraying the Muses, asblack women is probably where
this kernel of an idea camefrom, and then sort of mutated
outward from there.
Shanny Luft (20:59):
You know, it's interesting to be connecting
what you just said, and whatChad talked about earlier in
Hercules, the muses are kind ofbackground characters, right?
They show up for certain songs,but their existence is to push
the plot of the main charactersforward. That's the other thing
about the rumors video is ittakes the Muses and puts them in
the foreground. Right, thereason chat I'm connecting to
you is because you talkedearlier about Banos music videos
(21:23):
or performances in which there'sa recognition of black
performers, but they have tostand behind them like, like the
meat, like the classical musicis do and sort of help him reach
the heights of whatever he wantsto reach. In this case, it's
just the rumors. Video is just astory about the muse. It's like
they get to be the maincharacters, and they get to be
the only characters and mendon't have anything to say or do
(21:46):
or comment on, or there's no meninteracting with them in the
video.
Chad Seales (21:50):
I think this is where I'm convinced by Kimiko I
mean, that's the it seems likethat's the power of the video
and the power of Lizzo. And Imean to push to inverse
background and foreground, andthen everything you said, Tony,
about, like the presentation andthe visuals at work in that way.
Yeah,
Kimiko Matsumura (22:05):
I mean, I think the it's very much about
the centering of the feminineand anytime a masculine body
appears in the video, it's it'san image, it's not a person. And
the only implication of someonewho have the presence of men is
really in Cardi B is pregnancybecause all the all the
(22:26):
characters, the dancers arewomen, Cardi and Lizzo, are
women it's only in the statuesand in the wall frescoes and in
the phalluses that areperpetually in the background
that you see any hint at themale. It feels very much like an
inversion of male gaze sort ofsituation where this is their
(22:48):
made of women, this is thistheir for their for each other
and their own purposes. I mean,it simultaneously embraces and
pushes away the idea that theyare there for a male
consumption.
Shanny Luft (22:59):
Kimiko, I want to thank you so much. You're an
assistant professor of arthistory at UWSP. And Chad Seales
is a professor of religiousstudies at UT-Austin. Thank you
both for this conversation. Ireally appreciate it. Enjoy
talking to you.
Kimiko Matsumura (23:10):
It's so fun to talk about this stuff anytime.
Let me know.
Chad Seales (23:14):
Well, thanks, Shanny.
You're great. It's nice to meetyou. Kimiko.
Kimiko Matsumura (23:17):
Nice to meet you too
Chad. Thanks for having me andindulging in my last minute
whim.
Chad Seales (23:22):
I felt like I'm much more knowledgeable at the
end of this podcast than I wasat the beginning.
Shanny Luft (23:28):
I'm so grateful to Chad Seales and Kimiko Matsumura
for chatting with me about thisis rumors. If you enjoy no cure
for curiosity, the best way tosupport the podcast is to let
other people know about it. I'llsee you in two weeks.
Gretel Stock (23:43):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated, intentional, and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
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engaging. Discover your purpose,and visit UW-Stevens Point at
(24:04):
www.uwsp.edu.
I feel like I'm much more knowledgeable at the
(00:01):
end of this podcast than it wasat the beginning.
Shanny Luft (00:10):
Thank you for listening to no cure for
curiosity, a podcast for curiouspeople. In today's episode, we
are curious about Lizzo andCardi B's summer song Rumors. If
you don't know the song, andespecially if you haven't seen
the video, do yourself a favorand watch the video now and then
come back for this conversation.
This episode was suggested byKimiko Matsumura, an art
historian at the University ofWisconsin at Stevens Point, she
(00:33):
was struck by the videosportrayal of Lizzo and Cardi B
as Greek goddesses, andespecially the choice to put
these women into classical art,particularly ancient Greek vase
paintings. So Kimiko and I gottogether with Chad Seales, a
professor of religion at theUniversity of Texas at Austin,
and we talked about Lizzo thissong, and especially the video
for rumors, I hope you enjoy theconversation as much as we did.
Lizzo Clip (00:58):
No, I do.
They say I should watch thestuff I post, come on man. Say
I'm turning big girls into pros.
Come on, man.
Shanny Luft (01:10):
I guess I'll start with that. Well, let me let's do
introductions first. Can youstart with you tell us a little
bit about yourself?
Kimiko Matsumura (01:16):
Sure. So I am Kimiko Matsumura. I am an
Assistant Professor of ArtHistory at the University of
Wisconsin Stevens Point. And Iam really interested in modern
and contemporary art, and alsothe places where those things
intersect with popular cultureand visual culture. So I am
always thrilled when I comeacross things like Liz's music
(01:37):
video that are making thesereferences to a field that I am
teaching to students activelywhen these materials become
available.
Shanny Luft (01:46):
And the other person we've invited into the
conversation, it's Chad Seales,how you doing Chad?
Chad Seales (01:50):
Doing well, Shanny, for inviting me. I'm Chad
Seales. I'm an associateprofessor of Religious Studies
at University of Texas atAustin. And my research focuses
on American religious historyreally interested in how
religion and pop cultureConnect. I study mainly the
American South, but looking forconnections in religion and
music, and overlaps withhistories of race, and pop
(02:13):
culture with religion and filmas well.
Shanny Luft (02:15):
So first, can we talk about Lizzo for a second
what we know about her and inpreparation for talking about
this song,
Kimiko Matsumura (02:22):
I first encountered this song through
Spotify through their theircharting list, and I love her. I
haven't been a fan for as longas she's been around. But I've
been on board pretty much sinceTruth Hurts, which became
incredibly viral very quickly,and kind of skyrocketed her to
(02:42):
this realm of pop culture iconfor her interest in body
positivity for her messages ofself love, and her just
unapologetic desire to beherself in a space that is often
cultivated and marketed in verylimiting ways.
Shanny Luft (03:01):
Chad, did you know anything about Lizzo? Did you
listen to her music or knowanything about her career before
this?
Chad Seales (03:05):
Now, I'm definitely the least qualified on this
particular podcast. My area ofresearch in particular is not
obviously connected to Lizzo.
But it's really interested inwhy evangelicalism and its
musicality. It's sort of I'minterested in Bono and U2, and
how they are basicallyappropriate images of Africa and
blackness and a lot of theirwork. So hopefully we have a
conversation, maybe that sort ofmaybe contextualizes was those
(03:28):
performance in reception andrelationship to some of those
other students in pop culture aswell?
Kimiko Matsumura (03:36):
Absolutely. I think one of the most
interesting things about her asan artist is that she is kind of
built up of culturalcontradictions as we might frame
them. I mean, she is aclassically trained flutist, and
features in her music. But shemarries that to rap and r&b in a
way that very few contemporaryartists have done. And so I
(03:58):
think, for me, that kind ofdovetails with the classicism
that is inherent to thevisuality of this music, video,
and the kinds of narratives thatwe as a society have about
antiquity and classicaltraining, and the arts as spaces
of Westernness, spaces ofwhiteness, that are being
occupied and flipped andreconsidered through the lens of
(04:23):
blackness.
Shanny Luft (04:23):
The only other thing I know about Lizzo's
career is that movie Hustlersthat she was in in 2019. Right?
So she's like, not only has shebecome like a super big pop
star, but she's now like that Ithink that movie came out a year
or two ago. So now she has thisburgeoning acting career. And
the other thing that stands outto me about her is like you
said, Kimiko, her she advocatesfor body positivity. But in when
(04:47):
you see her in interviews, shealso has this like infectious
joy. Like she's, she seems sohappy and like surprised to be
where she is. She's socomfortable with herself. And so
like delighted to be be aroundother people and kind of wants
to lift people up. So as wesaid, this song Rumors just came
out August 13. So, Kimiko, whatdid you first notice when you
(05:08):
started watching Lizzo's Rumorsvideo?
Kimiko Matsumura (05:11):
From the second the video opened, I was
just blasted with art historicalreferences that I got super
excited about. Because you know,when you do a PhD for any number
of years, especially in thehumanities field, that people
don't necessarily feel like it'srelevant to their lives. It's
always exciting when you comeacross these real world cultural
(05:32):
examples where there is a realdiscussion happening with the
kinds of historical narrativesthat I spent my life studying,
Shanny Luft (05:41):
right in that video. I mean, it is like
ancient Greek, top to bottomright is it's not like a moment
or two, it's, they are dancingin urns, and on top of columns,
and in their costumes. There'snothing particular about the
song that connects it to thatvisual, but they they lean in
(06:03):
heavily on like this kind ofancient Greek world, or at least
this kind of like popularversion of an ancient Greek
world.
Kimiko Matsumura (06:10):
Yeah, so it's very much like a post modern
reinterpretation of ancientGreek references. And so for
example, within seconds of thevideo opening, you have a
reference to the ApolloBelvedere era, which is this
very famous sculpture that wasunearthed during the
Renaissance, a Roman copy of aGreek original, and the Farnese
(06:32):
a Hercules, another one of theseexamples of a copy of a Greek
original, made during the Romanperiod, and nursed again in the
Renaissance by these powerfulRenaissance families. Those two
sculptures in particular weremassively influential for
Renaissance artists as they wereconceiving of the ideal form. So
(06:53):
AI from the get go was sold.
Shanny Luft (06:55):
So why do you think the, the the
video starts off with those twofamous pieces? Is there? How
does it connect to the song orto Lyza herself or her career?
Like what do you think? Why doyou think that was a choice?
Kimiko Matsumura (07:09):
Well, I would say immediately, so the
sculptures themselves are notjust copied, they are presented
to us as plus as individuals, sothey are not within the heroic
classicism that was promulgatedby images like that, to make
these sculptures have differentbody proportions, and to be more
representative of maybecontemporary culture, I think is
(07:32):
definitely a gesture toward bodypositivity, and the uplifting
and celebration of bodies thatgo beyond these Greek ideals,
because our culture is of coursedifferent. And the kinds of
narratives we have aboutselfhood, and engaging with the
world around us are differentthan the things that the Greeks
(07:52):
believed, even as they informedour social and cultural lives
now,
Chad Seales (07:59):
yeah, I mentioned it here about like the
cultural contradictions as wellhow telling these positive
stories of up ending to thewhite supremacy of Greek the
sort of representations of, ofGreek culture, I'm really
fascinated with how that worksreally, in southern religion,
with like the stories and Birthof a Nation it ends in this
really weird toga party, inwhich they blast Greek culture
(08:20):
onto the holy land. And then itends with a marriage of a white
man and a white woman. So it'sthis like reinforcement of this
white supremacist ideals ofGreek culture. And these keep
coming up just in our everydaylife around the university with
these ideas of the great booksand who's going to teach the
(08:41):
great works. And it's veryconservative textual approach
that lends itself to a veryconservative politics so that
I'm really fascinated with thisup ending of that, and then how
other artists like Beyonce havedone similar things. I was just
interested to hear more fromCamilla to about how much of how
much of positive body image isin tension with an over
(09:01):
sexualized subject.
Kimiko Matsumura (09:05):
In terms of the sexualization of the the
content. It's reallyinteresting, because on the one
hand, Greek vase painting, whichcomes in two flavors, there's
the black figure bought vasepainting and the red figure vase
painting, the the vases wereused, often in things like the
Greek Symposium, which wasitself, you know, this fraternal
(09:27):
masculinized drinking culture.
So the vessels that they wouldbe using for these parties would
would be the the Greek vases,and the content would often be
sexual. You have these highlysexualized scenes that are I
mean, if you walk through theBritish Museum, some of them
have very lewd scenes on them.
(09:51):
So on the one hand, thesexualization in the video, I
think is well within the thecontext of Greek art. But on the
other hand, you know, there's Amuch larger, more complicated
social narrative about blacknessand sexuality.
Chad Seales (10:06):
Well, I read a Salon article about the video
and it says in a positive waythat it basically celebrates
rear ends. So it's like, not thebut it's all the way through and
and it made me think like when Iwas in seminary Well, I went
through some areas. I wasn't Idon't claim to be a seminarian,
but I was there for two years.
But the there I remember acolleague in grad school, who
was really interested in Sir MixA Lot song. I like big butts.
(10:29):
And she was saying this is apositive thing, because it's
showing a different type of bodyimage and popular culture. And
so she viewed it as a positive.
And I remember, several of theseminarian faculty were like,
we're not so sure about that.
Were they these were, you know,feminist scholars who, they they
weren't quite ready to go inthat direction.
Shanny Luft (10:52):
So there's a question about whether or not
that is, that is a move in theright direction?
Chad Seales (10:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, so Exactly. So isLizzo's video, in some ways, an
extent? Like is it carryingforth? This sort of cultural
turn? And Sir Mix A Lot? Is itbecause a woman is saying is it
no longer being objectified? Isit how is it? Is it resisting
those things? To me?
Shanny Luft (11:16):
It is a substantial difference between Sir Mix A Lot
saying I like big butts andLizzo saying, I like my big, but
it is a substantial differencein terms of one's relationship
with one's body, can we get whatwe're gonna? What do you what
are your thoughts?
Kimiko Matsumura (11:30):
So I think it can be both. On the
one hand, I think thatsexualization is the point, the
idea that bodies that areoutside of mainstream culture,
and I mean, at this point, herbody is mainstream culture. But
if we think about precedents andtraditions, the idea that bodies
that are outside of theseprecedents and traditions, that
they can be attractive, thatthey can be sexual, and have
(11:53):
sexual lives is something thatnot there hasn't been a lot of
space for in the public sphere.
And so the idea that, that shecan be sexual and be sexual on
terms that appeal to her is, is,you know, well within the
feminist reclamation of the bodyfor your own pleasure and own
(12:14):
purposes. I mean, it'scomplicated, because there are
those resonances ofinappropriate sexuality that
were pinned on black bodies likelizards. But I think the
reclamation is is really thepoint until wield it like a
weapon, I think is the thingthat makes the critique
especially especially pointed,
Chad Seales (12:34):
I guess another way to frame the question is can
Lizzo ever walk off stage? Andif and by that, I mean, can you
ever leave this performance ofherself in the video? Can't you
because you mentioned, which isa fascinating point, right along
this contradiction. She'strained as a classically
classically trained flutist. Socould she walk off this
(12:55):
particular stage of this videothat's popular onto another
stage and join an orchestra andmake a similar critique from a
different stage? So it or is theis the popularity of this video?
Is it? Can she ever leave thatparticular stage? I guess that's
what I'm asking.
Kimiko Matsumura (13:15):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the fact that she
is both this, this twerkinggoddess in this video, and a
classically trained flutist arealso just inherently part of the
complexities of well, makingmore complex identities, that
you are never just one thing andthat I think she tries to remind
(13:36):
people that she containsmultitudes. And then that way,
is is part of a narrative thatis looking to break down those
reductionist ideas of whatconstitutes black identity and
female black identity by lookingat these these cultural sources
that are not traditionallyoccupied by black women, either.
(13:57):
I mean, I think slightly relatedto this idea. I think she's
conscious of that. When sheperforms when she performed at
the Grammys, she had an allblack female orchestra behind
her. So I think she recognizesthe ways that these kinds of
classical Heritage's have beenexclusionary and is actively
(14:17):
trying to broaden our ideas ofwhat constitutes culture, but
also to remind us that we areable to be more than sexuality
to be more than artistictraining.
Chad Seales (14:31):
Yeah, that's absolutely fascinating. I didn't
know that about the all blackorchestra that she performed
with. So that juxtaposition ofwhat seems to be opposed of
classical and hip hop, puttingthose together with an all black
orchestra behind it. That soundsabsolutely fascinating and
making a visual effort tocombine all that in one place.
I'm always fascinated with howlike YouTube's Bano con-- and
(14:54):
how they constantly engaged withwhat they saw is black
musicality. but always from adistance, so they would have the
Harlem Gospel Choir behind them.
Or they have the psuedo gospelsingers behind them. And there's
a kind of caricature of anemotional blues tradition. One
of the things that Bono saysthat is absolutely crazy is like
he says this story about howwhen he went to LA in the 80s,
(15:16):
and hip hop was just breakingthat he could hear and those
sounds African music, and so he,he talks about Africans as
genetically musical. And but hismusicality there that he
imagines is one that leads tohip hop and leads to Jay Z, and
leads to the consumption of aparticular black musicality.
(15:40):
That's very, yeah, it's veryhighly commodified, and rounded
at the edges. It doesn't bringinto the conversation like the
Fisk Jubilee Singers, or itdoesn't bring into these
traditions that are likeclassical training, like you're
talking about. So I just findthat a very compelling image to
think of a black orchestrabehind Lizzo. putting that all
(16:01):
together and not not seeingthose things as separate and
apart. But as part of one biggertradition, that's multiple, a
lot of stuff going on.
Kimiko Matsumura (16:14):
Yeah, I mean, I think too the fact that she
plays the flute, I mean, like, Iplayed the flute for a hot
minute, I don't know, like sixmonths when I was 12 years old,
because it was the thing that,you know, pricy young ladies
played, and that was what I wasattracted to, when I had to pick
an instrument, the image of whoa flutist is, is very
particular. I mean, there are ifyou talk to band students, you
(16:37):
know, they have their, theirstereotypes of the kinds of
people who play each type ofinstrument and, and the idea of
this very refined proceedcompetitive flute player is
something that persists and Ithink is an immediate
contradiction on the surface ofwho she is as if we want to
phrase it just like a characterchat. I don't think you're
(16:57):
necessarily wrong. I mean,success for is a two way street.
It's not just what you'reputting out there. It's the way
that the audience is respondingto you. And it's, it's
definitely she is in a momentright now in which these kinds
of narratives of Reclamation andself making are at the forefront
of what we as a culture aretrying to do that and that makes
(17:19):
her more palatable and moreacceptable.
Shanny Luft (17:22):
So Cardi B is also in the video. She's like,
featured in it. And she'spregnant in the video, right?
That's not my imagination. Sheis pregnant, like right now.
Kimiko Matsumura (17:31):
Well, not anymore. She just had her son a
few days ago.
Shanny Luft (17:34):
Hot-breaking news podcast. Her son was just
born
Cardi B Clip (17:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Made a millionaire school.
Shanny Luft (17:45):
And and her outfit Cardi B's outfit? Like it's,
it's clearly intending to kindof celebrate her body.
Kimiko Matsumura (17:51):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I thought about this
too. I love cardio is rapidthis. It's so fun. And I guess,
you know, part of her wholetrajectory, too, has to do with
her highly sexualized narrativeand what her career was before
she was a rapper, she's verypublicly was a stripper before
she she broke out on the scene.
And she's never shied away fromthat. I guess, for me, the thing
(18:15):
that is really interesting abouther pregnancy, is that in the
context of the video, it'sanother facet of women's lives,
lives and the dimensions thatyou can hold while also, you
know, having a sex life andbeing a part of these larger
(18:36):
cultural sort of Reclamations ofbehavior. I agree with you the
costume is very it accentuatesthe bump
Chad Seales (18:45):
I guess what's cool in some ways about you know, pop
culture and these there's, likeyou're saying there's so many
cultural contradictions, as soonas the powerful messages like
gaining agency or control overthe presentation.
Kimiko Matsumura (18:55):
Yeah, Chad. I think that out of all the
elements of the video, herpregnancy is actually the
hardest thing to quantify, whichis what's kind of makes its
prominent display the thingthat's really kind of
fascinating about it.
Shanny Luft (19:07):
So I don't want this conversation to to end
without talking about Disney.
Part of the reason it caught myattention is because I teach New
Testament early Christianityclass here. When I talk to
students about and ask them whatHades is, or what they know
about it. 100% of the time, theytalk about that Hercules movie,
like every day, that's what theyknow that like when you say
(19:27):
Hades the thing a picture isthat character from that
Hercules movie, but I know it'svoices coming out of the screen.
But like that movie had a bigimpression on my students in
terms of least that character.
So I was intrigued by how whatyou saw between the connection
of that film and the rumorsvideo.
Kimiko Matsumura (19:47):
Sure. So the narrative is being told.
Basically, the narrator's of thestory are seven black women who
refer to themselves as the mediauses, and they are in the style
of Greek vase painting. And theyare all voiced by black women
(20:09):
and in skin tone andpresentation. So I think and
this is sort of the thing thatall the the pop culture press
has caught on to is that itseems like the idea was to
depict Lizzo. And her dancers,who are also a team of all black
women are varying body types, toa template that is maybe coming
(20:29):
from something like Disney'sHercules, as the narrator's of
the story, who sing their waythrough and are the fabulous and
sometimes lascivious backgroundcharacters who pursue the story.
So I think that affinity forvase painting and then also for
(20:50):
the portraying the Muses, asblack women is probably where
this kernel of an idea camefrom, and then sort of mutated
outward from there.
Shanny Luft (20:59):
You know, it's interesting to be connecting
what you just said, and whatChad talked about earlier in
Hercules, the muses are kind ofbackground characters, right?
They show up for certain songs,but their existence is to push
the plot of the main charactersforward. That's the other thing
about the rumors video is ittakes the Muses and puts them in
the foreground. Right, thereason chat I'm connecting to
you is because you talkedearlier about Banos music videos
(21:23):
or performances in which there'sa recognition of black
performers, but they have tostand behind them like, like the
meat, like the classical musicis do and sort of help him reach
the heights of whatever he wantsto reach. In this case, it's
just the rumors. Video is just astory about the muse. It's like
they get to be the maincharacters, and they get to be
the only characters and mendon't have anything to say or do
(21:46):
or comment on, or there's no meninteracting with them in the
video.
Chad Seales (21:50):
I think this is where I'm convinced by Kimiko I
mean, that's the it seems likethat's the power of the video
and the power of Lizzo. And Imean to push to inverse
background and foreground, andthen everything you said, Tony,
about, like the presentation andthe visuals at work in that way.
Yeah,
Kimiko Matsumura (22:05):
I mean, I think the it's very much about
the centering of the feminineand anytime a masculine body
appears in the video, it's it'san image, it's not a person. And
the only implication of someonewho have the presence of men is
really in Cardi B is pregnancybecause all the all the
(22:26):
characters, the dancers arewomen, Cardi and Lizzo, are
women it's only in the statuesand in the wall frescoes and in
the phalluses that areperpetually in the background
that you see any hint at themale. It feels very much like an
inversion of male gaze sort ofsituation where this is their
(22:48):
made of women, this is thistheir for their for each other
and their own purposes. I mean,it simultaneously embraces and
pushes away the idea that theyare there for a male
consumption.
Shanny Luft (22:59):
Kimiko, I want to thank you so much. You're an
assistant professor of arthistory at UWSP. And Chad Seales
is a professor of religiousstudies at UT-Austin. Thank you
both for this conversation. Ireally appreciate it. Enjoy
talking to you.
Kimiko Matsumura (23:10):
It's so fun to talk about this stuff anytime.
Let me know.
Chad Seales (23:14):
Well, thanks, Shanny.
You're great. It's nice to meetyou. Kimiko.
Kimiko Matsumura (23:17):
Nice to meet you too
Chad. Thanks for having me andindulging in my last minute
whim.
Chad Seales (23:22):
I felt like I'm much more knowledgeable at the
end of this podcast than I wasat the beginning.
Shanny Luft (23:28):
I'm so grateful to Chad Seales and Kimiko Matsumura
for chatting with me about thisis rumors. If you enjoy no cure
for curiosity, the best way tosupport the podcast is to let
other people know about it. I'llsee you in two weeks.
Gretel Stock (23:43):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated, intentional, and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
values of connecting,supporting, collaborating, and
engaging. Discover your purpose,and visit UW-Stevens Point at
(24:04):
www.uwsp.edu.
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