September 6, 2021 • 24 mins
In the first episode of the second semester, we are curious about Stephen Colbert and American Catholicism. So we invited Stephanie Brehm, author of America's Most Famous Catholic (According to Himself): Stephen Colbert and American Religion in the 21st Century. And joining us is Mary Ellen O'Donnell, author of Ingrained Habits: Growing up Catholic in Mid-Twentieth Century America.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shanny Luft (00:09):
Welcome back, everybody, to the start of the
second semester of No Cure forCuriosity. I am Shanny Luft.
Today, I'll be speaking withStephanie Brehm. She is a
faculty instructor atNorthwestern's Master of Science
in Higher EducationAdministration and Policy
Program and Associate Chair atHobart Women's Residential
College. She earned her PhD inreligious studies at
(00:29):
Northwestern in 2017, where shespecialized in American
religious history and media inpopular culture. In 2019, she
published America's Most FamousCatholic According to Himself,
Stephen Colbert, and AmericanReligion in the 21st Century.
And I also invited my friendMary Ellen O'Donnell, who
completed her PhD along with meat the University of North
(00:50):
Carolina in Chapel Hill inreligion in America. Mary Ellen
published a fantastic book,Ingrained Habits Growing Up
Catholic in Mid-20th CenturyAmerica, and she teaches at the
Department of Theology andReligious Studies at Villanova
University. The Colbert Reportran from 2005 to 2014. And it's
a little hard to describe. Hewas portraying a character that
(01:10):
was satirizing Bill O'Reilly,but Stephen Colbert, his actual
personality and identity, hisfeelings about America, his
Catholic identity, all getwrapped into the show. I was a
fan of the show, and so I jumpedat the opportunity to talk to
Stephanie and Mary Ellen aboutthe place of contemporary
Catholicism, where we arepolitically, and what influence
(01:31):
the Colbert Report is having onour national political
conversations today. Your bookis about media studies and humor
studies. You also talk about theculture wars, the history of
American Catholicism, religiousmedia infotainment, can you
explain what infotainment means,and why it's relevant to to
(01:51):
understanding Colbert?
Stephanie Brehm (01:52):
Yes, so infotainment has is a term
that's been around probablysince the 70s. But it's the
merging of information andentertainment. So people usually
use it pejoratively, right?
They're using it as like, oh,that's infotaining, not
informational. And so The DailyShow and The Colbert Report used
that infotaining as theirmechanism for their fake news
(02:14):
shows which were actually quiteinformative. And how many people
in the past 25 years have beenreceiving their news.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (02:24):
But I have to ask, too, in some ways, the
the language of humor is onelanguage that you're speaking
in. But then the idiom ofCatholicism, you've got to take
that on too, right, so it wasthat something that you had had
some background in or had youstudied it?
Stephanie Brehm (02:38):
My mom is Catholic, my dad, my sister, and
I are Jewish. We come from aninterfaith family, and we do all
of it. So my mom was teachingCCD, when my dad was president
of the synagogue. We havepriests over for Passover and
rabbis over for Christmas. So Ihave been immersed in a Catholic
world as long as I've beenalive, but I have always been an
(03:00):
observer of it. You know, Jesusis Mommy's God kind of thing.
But that is the personal basis Ihave in it. And then Florida
State there were really greatCatholic scholars, people who
study Catholicism like AmyKoehlinger, and I worked with
Bob Orsi and Sarah Taylor atNorthwestern, and they both have
experience in examining theCatholic world.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (03:19):
The other interesting thing is that I just
want to pick up on what you weretalking about with his, that how
people sort of were finding whatthey wanted to find, right, and
identifying. It's justmasterful, this, this use of
religion, and this complicatedCatholic identity. And Stephen
Colbert had this kind ofchameleon-like, aspect that you
(03:41):
could find, you know, if youwanted to sort of take it him
face value, you could have thataspect of it, or, you know, if
you're saying, okay, no, this isreally he's sort of poking fun
at this. You can go in thatdirection. So it's pretty
amazing.
Stephanie Brehm (03:55):
People I think were more confused by his
religious identification. Therewere so many more articles that
said, no, he's really Catholicin real life, because he was a
litmus litmus test. You couldsay, okay, I think he's an
atheist. Okay, I think he isconservative Catholic. Okay, I
think he is a liberal Catholic,progressive Cath-, like, he fit
everywhere along this spectrum.
And people could read himhowever they wanted.
Shanny Luft (04:18):
One thing I learned in your book, Stephanie, is um,
how beloved Stephen Colbert isamong Catholic clergy.
Stephanie Brehm (04:24):
Yes.
Shanny Luft (04:24):
Right. The National Catholic Reporter made Stephen
Colbert the runner-up Person ofthe Year. The winner, in case
anyone's curious, was PopeFrancis. He seemed really -- he
continues to be -- reallybeloved by Catholic clergy.
Stephanie Brehm (04:40):
He loves clergy, right like, which, you
know, reading Mary Ellen's bookmakes a lot of sense, right? He
grew up in this 50s and 60s, youknow, his older siblings were
born in the 50s. He was born inthe 60s, but in this mentality
where he w-- his world wasenveloped by Catholicism, and
you know, priests and clergyafter his dad died, they were
(05:02):
coming over, and you know, beingmale role models, his mom would
ask that of them. So, there'sdefinitely this -- he has an
affinity for Catholic, maleauthorities, and they share that
affinity. And I don't know. Idon't believe that, especially
not now with his new show.
Per--Conservative Catholicsdon't agree with that. Right.
(05:24):
But progressive Catholics do. SoI think it fell more along
political lines, then solelyreligious identification lines.
Shanny Luft (05:33):
So, let's get into that. I'm really curious about
similarities and differencesbetween the character Colbert's
Catholicism and the real guy'sCatholicism, right, the real the
real performer. Because as wewere saying earlier, they're not
opposite -- oppositepresentations. The performer
Colbert, in an interview oncesaid, that he sometimes would
(05:54):
put his true beliefs into themouth of the character. And
that's and at other times hewas, you know, putting beliefs
into his mouth that he was sortof critiquing or commenting on.
So, how would you compare andcontrast the real Catholicism of
the performer versus thecharacter that he was
(06:14):
portraying? Is it just liberalversus conservative or something
else?
Stephanie Brehm (06:18):
Not not entirely. So I think his
personal Catholicism it is moreemphasizing the heritage
Catholicism that he grew upwith. You know, he, he only
talked about the sexual abusecrisis, the clerical sexual
abuse crisis, a handful oftimes, and only one entire
segment, in nine years, whenlike, this is a nine year period
(06:42):
where this is happening. I wasmost surprised in doing my
research, because I had alwaysremembered it as being more
there, right, that he had alwaystalked about the sexual abuse
crisis. And when I looked back,he didn't, because I was
interpreting it with a liberallens, and assuming he's, you
know, combating the institution,but he's not. I think his
(07:03):
personal Catholicism really isdevoted to the institution.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (07:08):
That's so interesting too -- yeah. I was
curious about that, too, in thatsection about the sexual abuse
was so enlightening, really,because it was like, how did how
did he let this go? In someways, you know, because it was
just set up for that. But, butwhat's interesting is this idea
that in your book, you do sobeautifully show how he is
(07:31):
wrestling with the structureslike the church, right? And not
exactly the faith. So he's notexactly taking on any kind of
doctrines or dogmas per se, buthe is taking on the structures.
And yet at the same time, he hasthis kind of love for it. Right?
I mean, he, so he loves, he doeshave this ultimate respect for
(07:53):
the priests and the clergy. Andtherefore the hierarchy.
Stephanie Brehm (08:00):
Exactly. It's the same way I saw him doing
with government. I see the realColbert, he loves America. He's
very patriotic, right? He'sagainst aspects of the system
that he doesn't see as workingor actually, that he sees is
hypocritical. And people, youknow, they want to see his story
(08:20):
as one of overcoming suffering,right, with his parents, his
father, and his brothers dyingin a plane crash when he was 10.
Right. And so, this redemptivequality, he tried to, like, lay
low with that, um, right. Likehe's, he would often his
theology is one of joy, which Idon't think is solely, I don't
(08:42):
think that's how every humansees Catholicism.
Mary Ellen O'Donnel (08:46):
Absolutely.
And coming out of when he cameout of in some ways, it's
shocking that, that that's wherehe arrived, really. But in so in
both the joy but then that deeprespect for the suffering, like
the discussion that you haveabout his conversation with
Biden, in I think it was 2015,that was such a powerful,
poignant moment, right, that,you know, these, these two
(09:08):
people have had this kind ofintense suffering, and they both
have this Catholic connection,and he finds a way to sort of
make room for that.
Stephanie Brehm (09:18):
Yeah, exactly.
There was an interview withAnderson Cooper after the book
was done, and I couldn't includeit anymore. Anderson Cooper's
mother had just passed away. AndColbert mother had passed away a
few years before, so they hadthis really intense conversation
about like, mothers and religionand faith and, and suffering and
joy, and it was like a reallypoignant moment, and he's having
(09:39):
these out of character. HisCatholicism was not as
progressive as the progressiveswould like and not as
conservative as theConservatives would like.
Shanny Luft (09:51):
So when Colbert--I want to talk about Catholic
comedy. When Colbert is tellingjokes, some of which are about
Catholicism or about theCatholic Church or about
Catholics. What is fair game forhim to mock versus not? Right?
Like, what what is okay? Whatdid you get a sense of, sort of,
where he, he felt comfortablecritiquing or ridiculing or
(10:13):
commenting on--versus thingslike you talked about the sex
abuse scandal, which he justavoided talking about, mostly
for nine years.
Stephanie Brehm (10:22):
Yeah, well, like Mary Ellen said, he, I
think he felt okay. Pointing outthe hypocritical aspects of the
institution or specificindividuals, but not at the
theology itself. I think thethings that I found really
interesting where that some ofthe jokes he made about
Christianity, were less Catholicspecific. And when he did
(10:43):
Catholic jokes, they were abouthis own identity or his
heritage. So like, when he wasinterviewing another Catholic
who had a large family, he woulddo Catholic names off. Can you
name all your siblings who canname their siblings the fastest,
right? Um, those kinds of1950s 60s, like mid 20th century
jokes that makes sense in aCatholic enclave, right? That
(11:05):
don't make sense if you've nevermet a Catholic before, right?
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (11:08):
I loved the segment where, where he
gives up Catholicism for Lent.
And then he goes on thisCatholic Bender and I mean, and
and so it was that sort of, youknow, he just goes through
linearizes, all these thingsthat he's done all these
Catholic things he's done. Andso as a Catholic who was like,
oh, yeah, I know that. Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. It works. And thenfrom somebody who's like, oh,
(11:30):
that's crazy. Catholics look atall those those crazy things
they do, it works. And so youhave this, kind of like that
insider, like, Oh, I know thelingo, he can make fun of it.
And then you can laugh with him.
If you're an outsider or aninsider, right?
Colbert Clip (11:49):
During the Lenten season, it's traditional for
every Catholic to give upsomething that is important to
him, or his self. And it's gotto be something that means
something big to them, okay?
Something that really matterssomething it would be painful
for them to do without. So forthe next 40 days, I am giving up
(12:09):
Catholicism. It's a difficultsacrifice, but that just shows
my devotion to the greatreligion that I no longer
practice.
Stephanie Brehm (12:27):
It works on so many levels, right? Like, it
works for people who say,create, I don't know what
Catholics do. But there's aCatholic materiality that is
different than whiteProtestantism. And I know that
that's a difference. Right? Andit works for Catholics who say,
I know exactly what he's talkingabout. Absolutely.
Shanny Luft (12:45):
With regard to it.
So when he a couple times in thebook, you mentioned co bear with
sometimes joke about PopeBenedict's shoes. Apparently, he
had expensive red leatherItalian shoes on his butt is
that the only critique Colberthad of Benedict, in other words,
was it just was was the point ofthat joke of the kind of
(13:07):
hypocrisy of lack of humility,you know, from someone who is
professing Christian faith?
Yeah. And
Stephanie Brehm (13:17):
I also think the, you know, the idea of
people who take orders lack, youknow, the lack of now with
poverty, right, um, I think Ithink it goes shows opulence of
the church. Right, that. But Ialso think, you know, when he,
when Francis came around, PopeFrancis, he put them in
contradiction with one another.
And so, Pope Francis would bethe Jedi and Pope Benedict would
(13:38):
be the stiff board, right? Likehe would actually have these
Star Wars comparisons, right,um, that, that demonstrate a
good versus evil understanding.
And I think it was more that hewas tapping into the larger
ethos, not even necessarily aCatholic ethos, but like a
(14:00):
generational and, and globalunderstanding of Francis is a
Pope of the people right andplaying into those stereotypes
of them. I don't think he wasadamantly against Benedict any
more than he's, you know, Ithink people love Pope Francis
and he was playing with that.
Shanny Luft (14:21):
But among American Catholics, that seems to reflect
something that's actually that Iperceive happening in at least
American Catholicism. There area group of Catholics who seem to
favor Pope Francis and a groupof Catholics who seem to favor
Pope Benedict and Colbert got toget to portray each of them.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (14:41):
Yeah, there's definitely teams these
days. Right. There aredefinitely teams shiney point
you know, that that Colbert getsto take both of these, I think
is is so fair, but it does. Itcertainly highlights that idea
that like it's your kind of aneither or. Right So if you're
(15:01):
team Benedict, it's gonna behard for you to really come
around on, on Francis and whathe's doing. And if your team
Francis, it's your have a hardtime sort of trying to relate to
everybody in this universalchurch. Right. And so, you know,
it's, it's interesting to seehow that so parallels the
(15:22):
political situation to, youknow, when you were saying
Stephanie, how Colbert, excuseme, the character was saying,
Benny's my guy. I couldn't helpbut think like, oh my gosh, is
that setup? All the people whosay like, well, Trump's my
president, right. In some wayswe have this, like, parallel
(15:43):
divide that's happening. It'scrazy.
Stephanie Brehm (15:45):
Definitely.
Yeah. And I, I think, because ofthe way Catholicism is part and
parcel of the political systemof the US, especially now,
right, like, ConservativeCatholics align more with
evangelicalism and certainMormons than they do, like and
progressive Catholics align morewith, you know, some Methodists
(16:06):
and Jews, right. Like, it's,there's the idea of a universal
church has never been with withone soul message, right? Like,
yes, the insert, there's aninstitutional message the same
way there's an experiencedmessage I
Shanny Luft (16:25):
want. The next thing to talk about related to
Catholic comedians, is how manyof them address the sex abuse
scandal, it seems to me likeCatholic comedians fit into two
categories. There are peoplelike Bill Maher, who use the
Catholic sex abuse scandal tojust bludgeon Catholicism. And
then on the opposite end, arepeople like Jim Gaffigan, and
(16:47):
Stephen Colbert, who don't talkabout it at all? Or when they
do? They talk about very rarely,they don't use it to damage the
institutional church or critiquethe church. It doesn't undermine
their faith. Right, in any waythat's caused them to question
their, their relationship to thechurch,
Stephanie Brehm (17:08):
at least not outwardly. We don't know. Yeah,
right.
Shanny Luft (17:11):
At least not in the way that yeah, they're willing
to discuss or that they everhave. And it struck me that
there doesn't seem to beanything in between that it's
like the only options are, usethe sex abuse scandal as a way
to demonize the church, or treadvery, very lightly. And, and
refer to it as little aspossible only if you have to. I
(17:33):
don't know, maybe that's becauseit's just not territory for
comedians. It's just it's areal, it's a hard thing to make
funny. I don't know, what do youthink about that?
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (17:41):
I have to say that that was initially what
I was thinking to, I mean, howdo you make it funny, right?
Because, um, you know, you just,there's no way to address the
horrors of it, withoutacknowledging right suffering of
it. And so, you know, clearlyyou have all sorts of ways of,
(18:04):
of acknowledging hypocrisywithin it, right of these people
who are claiming to be theholders of old morality and the
teachers of all the things thatwe should and should not do. You
do doing the most horrificthings, right. And so they're,
you know, you can imagine, like,oh, there's an angle for making
(18:26):
fun, but at the same time, likewhen you think through, okay,
what actually happened? I don'tknow how you get to the other
side. Right? I don't know whatyou think, Stephanie?
Stephanie Brehm (18:34):
I agree. And I you know, for me the the other
option, like if we're, I wouldsee the people who tread lightly
as the middle path. And theother option would be
apologists, right? And yeah,nobody's doing that. Right now
in comedy anyway. Yeah, itdefinitely not in comedy. And so
the critical part, like somepeople are using it to under,
(18:56):
like undercut religion. That'sdefinitely Bill Maher, and
others are just using it becausethey want to undercut any
institution, and it's like amarker and signifies
institutions that are bad,right? And then those that tread
lightly, I still think are theones that for whom the theology
and the faith are not to bemocked.
Shanny Luft (19:19):
I'm curious if you've found that Colbert is
influential. And by that I meanis Do you think he has actually
done anything to shape publicperception of Catholicism?
Colbert Clip (19:32):
Speaking of awards, the Oxford English
Dictionary has named its word ofthe year for 2016. And it's post
truth, and I am pre enraged.
First of all, post truth is nota word of the year. It's the two
words of the year. Hyphens arefor the week. Second, post truth
(19:53):
is clearly just a rip off of my2006 Word of the Year truthiness
which
Shanny Luft (19:59):
you One of the things you're putting into it is
a question that gets raisedabout whether Colbert is the
harbinger of Donald Trump. AndI've heard the performer co
bear. Talk about the fact thatthere were, like, concepts that
his character introduced liketruthiness that he hasn't heard
(20:21):
Trump talk about or tweet about.
And so, Stephen Colbert, theperformer, does himself see a
connection between the characterhe portrayed and the I don't
know, the public presentation ofDonald Trump. So I'm curious
what you think about hisColbert, influential in terms of
politics is he influencedAmerican Catholicism? What do
you think? Yeah, I
Stephanie Brehm (20:41):
think he's definitely influenced politics.
And I think, I think that washis goal. And so any other
influence was a byproduct. And Ithink that's how Catholicism
fits in with it. So I think formany Catholics, he, and only for
Catholics, he was able to reallyspeak to an experience that
(21:02):
others had, and so people feltan affinity for that. There,
there still are, one of thereasons why my book is
necessary, is that there were somany people who said, but he's
not really Catholic, like inreal life like that, and knowing
it, and that unawareness, of hisCatholicism is still prevalent,
(21:26):
so I don't think he actuallychanged how we think about
Catholicism. I think he affirmedways to be Catholic for certain
Catholics. And I think hebrought to the forefront,
certain Catholic ideas thatweren't necessarily given play
elsewhere. So like James Martintalking about social justice,
(21:47):
right. I don't know if thatbeing seen as a Catholic theme
was happening in other latenight shows or infotainment
shows.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (21:55):
A follow up on this because Johnny, I had
the same question. And, and,Stephen, you sort of set us up
by question like setting up thisquestion about, you know, is it
possible that this emphasis ontruthiness may have, in some
ways paved a road to an electionof Donald Trump? Right, like,
(22:15):
maybe not that direct, but I youknow, I wonder, is there
something to this buying intothe we just want to believe the
stuff that we want to believe?
Yeah,
Stephanie Brehm (22:27):
and I think I think also, for those who agree
with the human Colbert,politically, I think, Colbert,
the characters, truthiness,desensitized them. And so the
idea was, I think for manyTrump's not really a threat.
This is a joke, right? And sothe idea of taking this person
(22:48):
humorously made it so that hewas less scary, right, and it
was less important. And I thinkfor those who don't agree with
Colbert are the humanpolitically, it was what we've
seen this before. This isexactly you know, I feel it in
my gut, right. Like, the waythat Colbert mocked George W.
(23:10):
Bush became then the languagethat was able to be used later
on with Trump. About my realityis different than your reality.
My Truth is different than yourtruth. Um, and yeah, so I, I
don't think Colbert alone didthis, right. No, I'm
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (23:29):
not. Oh,
Stephanie Brehm (23:30):
I have two people. Right. He still only has
one vote as a senator. And, butI do think there was a
desensitization. I think it wasin the ether that a bombastic
person could be beloved, right.
Um, and I think the way that heapproached the quote, the
character approached truth,definitely shaped fake news
(23:51):
going forward.
Shanny Luft (23:54):
Stephanie and Bram is the author of America's most
famous Catholic according tohimself, Marilyn O'Donnell is
the author of ingrained habitsgrowing up Catholic in mid 20th
century America. It's fantasticto talk to you both about
American Catholicism about mediaabout the field of Religious
Studies. This is a greatconversation. Thank you both so
much. Thank you.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (24:15):
This was a blast. Thanks, Danny.
Shanny Luft (24:18):
I hope you enjoyed the first episode of the second
semester of no cure forcuriosity. We have some great
conversations lined up for thisseason. I'm really looking
forward to sharing them with youand getting your thoughts and
feedback on our Facebook page.
no cure for curiosity. I'll seeyou in two weeks.
Gretel Stock (24:37):
This podcast is brought to you by University
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engaging. Learn more about UWStevens Point and all our
programs at uwsp.edu
Welcome back, everybody, to the start of the
second semester of No Cure forCuriosity. I am Shanny Luft.
Today, I'll be speaking withStephanie Brehm. She is a
faculty instructor atNorthwestern's Master of Science
in Higher EducationAdministration and Policy
Program and Associate Chair atHobart Women's Residential
College. She earned her PhD inreligious studies at
(00:29):
Northwestern in 2017, where shespecialized in American
religious history and media inpopular culture. In 2019, she
published America's Most FamousCatholic According to Himself,
Stephen Colbert, and AmericanReligion in the 21st Century.
And I also invited my friendMary Ellen O'Donnell, who
completed her PhD along with meat the University of North
(00:50):
Carolina in Chapel Hill inreligion in America. Mary Ellen
published a fantastic book,Ingrained Habits Growing Up
Catholic in Mid-20th CenturyAmerica, and she teaches at the
Department of Theology andReligious Studies at Villanova
University. The Colbert Reportran from 2005 to 2014. And it's
a little hard to describe. Hewas portraying a character that
(01:10):
was satirizing Bill O'Reilly,but Stephen Colbert, his actual
personality and identity, hisfeelings about America, his
Catholic identity, all getwrapped into the show. I was a
fan of the show, and so I jumpedat the opportunity to talk to
Stephanie and Mary Ellen aboutthe place of contemporary
Catholicism, where we arepolitically, and what influence
(01:31):
the Colbert Report is having onour national political
conversations today. Your bookis about media studies and humor
studies. You also talk about theculture wars, the history of
American Catholicism, religiousmedia infotainment, can you
explain what infotainment means,and why it's relevant to to
(01:51):
understanding Colbert?
Stephanie Brehm (01:52):
Yes, so infotainment has is a term
that's been around probablysince the 70s. But it's the
merging of information andentertainment. So people usually
use it pejoratively, right?
They're using it as like, oh,that's infotaining, not
informational. And so The DailyShow and The Colbert Report used
that infotaining as theirmechanism for their fake news
(02:14):
shows which were actually quiteinformative. And how many people
in the past 25 years have beenreceiving their news.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (02:24):
But I have to ask, too, in some ways, the
the language of humor is onelanguage that you're speaking
in. But then the idiom ofCatholicism, you've got to take
that on too, right, so it wasthat something that you had had
some background in or had youstudied it?
Stephanie Brehm (02:38):
My mom is Catholic, my dad, my sister, and
I are Jewish. We come from aninterfaith family, and we do all
of it. So my mom was teachingCCD, when my dad was president
of the synagogue. We havepriests over for Passover and
rabbis over for Christmas. So Ihave been immersed in a Catholic
world as long as I've beenalive, but I have always been an
(03:00):
observer of it. You know, Jesusis Mommy's God kind of thing.
But that is the personal basis Ihave in it. And then Florida
State there were really greatCatholic scholars, people who
study Catholicism like AmyKoehlinger, and I worked with
Bob Orsi and Sarah Taylor atNorthwestern, and they both have
experience in examining theCatholic world.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (03:19):
The other interesting thing is that I just
want to pick up on what you weretalking about with his, that how
people sort of were finding whatthey wanted to find, right, and
identifying. It's justmasterful, this, this use of
religion, and this complicatedCatholic identity. And Stephen
Colbert had this kind ofchameleon-like, aspect that you
(03:41):
could find, you know, if youwanted to sort of take it him
face value, you could have thataspect of it, or, you know, if
you're saying, okay, no, this isreally he's sort of poking fun
at this. You can go in thatdirection. So it's pretty
amazing.
Stephanie Brehm (03:55):
People I think were more confused by his
religious identification. Therewere so many more articles that
said, no, he's really Catholicin real life, because he was a
litmus litmus test. You couldsay, okay, I think he's an
atheist. Okay, I think he isconservative Catholic. Okay, I
think he is a liberal Catholic,progressive Cath-, like, he fit
everywhere along this spectrum.
And people could read himhowever they wanted.
Shanny Luft (04:18):
One thing I learned in your book, Stephanie, is um,
how beloved Stephen Colbert isamong Catholic clergy.
Stephanie Brehm (04:24):
Yes.
Shanny Luft (04:24):
Right. The National Catholic Reporter made Stephen
Colbert the runner-up Person ofthe Year. The winner, in case
anyone's curious, was PopeFrancis. He seemed really -- he
continues to be -- reallybeloved by Catholic clergy.
Stephanie Brehm (04:40):
He loves clergy, right like, which, you
know, reading Mary Ellen's bookmakes a lot of sense, right? He
grew up in this 50s and 60s, youknow, his older siblings were
born in the 50s. He was born inthe 60s, but in this mentality
where he w-- his world wasenveloped by Catholicism, and
you know, priests and clergyafter his dad died, they were
(05:02):
coming over, and you know, beingmale role models, his mom would
ask that of them. So, there'sdefinitely this -- he has an
affinity for Catholic, maleauthorities, and they share that
affinity. And I don't know. Idon't believe that, especially
not now with his new show.
Per--Conservative Catholicsdon't agree with that. Right.
(05:24):
But progressive Catholics do. SoI think it fell more along
political lines, then solelyreligious identification lines.
Shanny Luft (05:33):
So, let's get into that. I'm really curious about
similarities and differencesbetween the character Colbert's
Catholicism and the real guy'sCatholicism, right, the real the
real performer. Because as wewere saying earlier, they're not
opposite -- oppositepresentations. The performer
Colbert, in an interview oncesaid, that he sometimes would
(05:54):
put his true beliefs into themouth of the character. And
that's and at other times hewas, you know, putting beliefs
into his mouth that he was sortof critiquing or commenting on.
So, how would you compare andcontrast the real Catholicism of
the performer versus thecharacter that he was
(06:14):
portraying? Is it just liberalversus conservative or something
else?
Stephanie Brehm (06:18):
Not not entirely. So I think his
personal Catholicism it is moreemphasizing the heritage
Catholicism that he grew upwith. You know, he, he only
talked about the sexual abusecrisis, the clerical sexual
abuse crisis, a handful oftimes, and only one entire
segment, in nine years, whenlike, this is a nine year period
(06:42):
where this is happening. I wasmost surprised in doing my
research, because I had alwaysremembered it as being more
there, right, that he had alwaystalked about the sexual abuse
crisis. And when I looked back,he didn't, because I was
interpreting it with a liberallens, and assuming he's, you
know, combating the institution,but he's not. I think his
(07:03):
personal Catholicism really isdevoted to the institution.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (07:08):
That's so interesting too -- yeah. I was
curious about that, too, in thatsection about the sexual abuse
was so enlightening, really,because it was like, how did how
did he let this go? In someways, you know, because it was
just set up for that. But, butwhat's interesting is this idea
that in your book, you do sobeautifully show how he is
(07:31):
wrestling with the structureslike the church, right? And not
exactly the faith. So he's notexactly taking on any kind of
doctrines or dogmas per se, buthe is taking on the structures.
And yet at the same time, he hasthis kind of love for it. Right?
I mean, he, so he loves, he doeshave this ultimate respect for
(07:53):
the priests and the clergy. Andtherefore the hierarchy.
Stephanie Brehm (08:00):
Exactly. It's the same way I saw him doing
with government. I see the realColbert, he loves America. He's
very patriotic, right? He'sagainst aspects of the system
that he doesn't see as workingor actually, that he sees is
hypocritical. And people, youknow, they want to see his story
(08:20):
as one of overcoming suffering,right, with his parents, his
father, and his brothers dyingin a plane crash when he was 10.
Right. And so, this redemptivequality, he tried to, like, lay
low with that, um, right. Likehe's, he would often his
theology is one of joy, which Idon't think is solely, I don't
(08:42):
think that's how every humansees Catholicism.
Mary Ellen O'Donnel (08:46):
Absolutely.
And coming out of when he cameout of in some ways, it's
shocking that, that that's wherehe arrived, really. But in so in
both the joy but then that deeprespect for the suffering, like
the discussion that you haveabout his conversation with
Biden, in I think it was 2015,that was such a powerful,
poignant moment, right, that,you know, these, these two
(09:08):
people have had this kind ofintense suffering, and they both
have this Catholic connection,and he finds a way to sort of
make room for that.
Stephanie Brehm (09:18):
Yeah, exactly.
There was an interview withAnderson Cooper after the book
was done, and I couldn't includeit anymore. Anderson Cooper's
mother had just passed away. AndColbert mother had passed away a
few years before, so they hadthis really intense conversation
about like, mothers and religionand faith and, and suffering and
joy, and it was like a reallypoignant moment, and he's having
(09:39):
these out of character. HisCatholicism was not as
progressive as the progressiveswould like and not as
conservative as theConservatives would like.
Shanny Luft (09:51):
So when Colbert--I want to talk about Catholic
comedy. When Colbert is tellingjokes, some of which are about
Catholicism or about theCatholic Church or about
Catholics. What is fair game forhim to mock versus not? Right?
Like, what what is okay? Whatdid you get a sense of, sort of,
where he, he felt comfortablecritiquing or ridiculing or
(10:13):
commenting on--versus thingslike you talked about the sex
abuse scandal, which he justavoided talking about, mostly
for nine years.
Stephanie Brehm (10:22):
Yeah, well, like Mary Ellen said, he, I
think he felt okay. Pointing outthe hypocritical aspects of the
institution or specificindividuals, but not at the
theology itself. I think thethings that I found really
interesting where that some ofthe jokes he made about
Christianity, were less Catholicspecific. And when he did
(10:43):
Catholic jokes, they were abouthis own identity or his
heritage. So like, when he wasinterviewing another Catholic
who had a large family, he woulddo Catholic names off. Can you
name all your siblings who canname their siblings the fastest,
right? Um, those kinds of1950s 60s, like mid 20th century
jokes that makes sense in aCatholic enclave, right? That
(11:05):
don't make sense if you've nevermet a Catholic before, right?
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (11:08):
I loved the segment where, where he
gives up Catholicism for Lent.
And then he goes on thisCatholic Bender and I mean, and
and so it was that sort of, youknow, he just goes through
linearizes, all these thingsthat he's done all these
Catholic things he's done. Andso as a Catholic who was like,
oh, yeah, I know that. Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. It works. And thenfrom somebody who's like, oh,
(11:30):
that's crazy. Catholics look atall those those crazy things
they do, it works. And so youhave this, kind of like that
insider, like, Oh, I know thelingo, he can make fun of it.
And then you can laugh with him.
If you're an outsider or aninsider, right?
Colbert Clip (11:49):
During the Lenten season, it's traditional for
every Catholic to give upsomething that is important to
him, or his self. And it's gotto be something that means
something big to them, okay?
Something that really matterssomething it would be painful
for them to do without. So forthe next 40 days, I am giving up
(12:09):
Catholicism. It's a difficultsacrifice, but that just shows
my devotion to the greatreligion that I no longer
practice.
Stephanie Brehm (12:27):
It works on so many levels, right? Like, it
works for people who say,create, I don't know what
Catholics do. But there's aCatholic materiality that is
different than whiteProtestantism. And I know that
that's a difference. Right? Andit works for Catholics who say,
I know exactly what he's talkingabout. Absolutely.
Shanny Luft (12:45):
With regard to it.
So when he a couple times in thebook, you mentioned co bear with
sometimes joke about PopeBenedict's shoes. Apparently, he
had expensive red leatherItalian shoes on his butt is
that the only critique Colberthad of Benedict, in other words,
was it just was was the point ofthat joke of the kind of
(13:07):
hypocrisy of lack of humility,you know, from someone who is
professing Christian faith?
Yeah. And
Stephanie Brehm (13:17):
I also think the, you know, the idea of
people who take orders lack, youknow, the lack of now with
poverty, right, um, I think Ithink it goes shows opulence of
the church. Right, that. But Ialso think, you know, when he,
when Francis came around, PopeFrancis, he put them in
contradiction with one another.
And so, Pope Francis would bethe Jedi and Pope Benedict would
(13:38):
be the stiff board, right? Likehe would actually have these
Star Wars comparisons, right,um, that, that demonstrate a
good versus evil understanding.
And I think it was more that hewas tapping into the larger
ethos, not even necessarily aCatholic ethos, but like a
(14:00):
generational and, and globalunderstanding of Francis is a
Pope of the people right andplaying into those stereotypes
of them. I don't think he wasadamantly against Benedict any
more than he's, you know, Ithink people love Pope Francis
and he was playing with that.
Shanny Luft (14:21):
But among American Catholics, that seems to reflect
something that's actually that Iperceive happening in at least
American Catholicism. There area group of Catholics who seem to
favor Pope Francis and a groupof Catholics who seem to favor
Pope Benedict and Colbert got toget to portray each of them.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (14:41):
Yeah, there's definitely teams these
days. Right. There aredefinitely teams shiney point
you know, that that Colbert getsto take both of these, I think
is is so fair, but it does. Itcertainly highlights that idea
that like it's your kind of aneither or. Right So if you're
(15:01):
team Benedict, it's gonna behard for you to really come
around on, on Francis and whathe's doing. And if your team
Francis, it's your have a hardtime sort of trying to relate to
everybody in this universalchurch. Right. And so, you know,
it's, it's interesting to seehow that so parallels the
(15:22):
political situation to, youknow, when you were saying
Stephanie, how Colbert, excuseme, the character was saying,
Benny's my guy. I couldn't helpbut think like, oh my gosh, is
that setup? All the people whosay like, well, Trump's my
president, right. In some wayswe have this, like, parallel
(15:43):
divide that's happening. It'scrazy.
Stephanie Brehm (15:45):
Definitely.
Yeah. And I, I think, because ofthe way Catholicism is part and
parcel of the political systemof the US, especially now,
right, like, ConservativeCatholics align more with
evangelicalism and certainMormons than they do, like and
progressive Catholics align morewith, you know, some Methodists
(16:06):
and Jews, right. Like, it's,there's the idea of a universal
church has never been with withone soul message, right? Like,
yes, the insert, there's aninstitutional message the same
way there's an experiencedmessage I
Shanny Luft (16:25):
want. The next thing to talk about related to
Catholic comedians, is how manyof them address the sex abuse
scandal, it seems to me likeCatholic comedians fit into two
categories. There are peoplelike Bill Maher, who use the
Catholic sex abuse scandal tojust bludgeon Catholicism. And
then on the opposite end, arepeople like Jim Gaffigan, and
(16:47):
Stephen Colbert, who don't talkabout it at all? Or when they
do? They talk about very rarely,they don't use it to damage the
institutional church or critiquethe church. It doesn't undermine
their faith. Right, in any waythat's caused them to question
their, their relationship to thechurch,
Stephanie Brehm (17:08):
at least not outwardly. We don't know. Yeah,
right.
Shanny Luft (17:11):
At least not in the way that yeah, they're willing
to discuss or that they everhave. And it struck me that
there doesn't seem to beanything in between that it's
like the only options are, usethe sex abuse scandal as a way
to demonize the church, or treadvery, very lightly. And, and
refer to it as little aspossible only if you have to. I
(17:33):
don't know, maybe that's becauseit's just not territory for
comedians. It's just it's areal, it's a hard thing to make
funny. I don't know, what do youthink about that?
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (17:41):
I have to say that that was initially what
I was thinking to, I mean, howdo you make it funny, right?
Because, um, you know, you just,there's no way to address the
horrors of it, withoutacknowledging right suffering of
it. And so, you know, clearlyyou have all sorts of ways of,
(18:04):
of acknowledging hypocrisywithin it, right of these people
who are claiming to be theholders of old morality and the
teachers of all the things thatwe should and should not do. You
do doing the most horrificthings, right. And so they're,
you know, you can imagine, like,oh, there's an angle for making
(18:26):
fun, but at the same time, likewhen you think through, okay,
what actually happened? I don'tknow how you get to the other
side. Right? I don't know whatyou think, Stephanie?
Stephanie Brehm (18:34):
I agree. And I you know, for me the the other
option, like if we're, I wouldsee the people who tread lightly
as the middle path. And theother option would be
apologists, right? And yeah,nobody's doing that. Right now
in comedy anyway. Yeah, itdefinitely not in comedy. And so
the critical part, like somepeople are using it to under,
(18:56):
like undercut religion. That'sdefinitely Bill Maher, and
others are just using it becausethey want to undercut any
institution, and it's like amarker and signifies
institutions that are bad,right? And then those that tread
lightly, I still think are theones that for whom the theology
and the faith are not to bemocked.
Shanny Luft (19:19):
I'm curious if you've found that Colbert is
influential. And by that I meanis Do you think he has actually
done anything to shape publicperception of Catholicism?
Colbert Clip (19:32):
Speaking of awards, the Oxford English
Dictionary has named its word ofthe year for 2016. And it's post
truth, and I am pre enraged.
First of all, post truth is nota word of the year. It's the two
words of the year. Hyphens arefor the week. Second, post truth
(19:53):
is clearly just a rip off of my2006 Word of the Year truthiness
which
Shanny Luft (19:59):
you One of the things you're putting into it is
a question that gets raisedabout whether Colbert is the
harbinger of Donald Trump. AndI've heard the performer co
bear. Talk about the fact thatthere were, like, concepts that
his character introduced liketruthiness that he hasn't heard
(20:21):
Trump talk about or tweet about.
And so, Stephen Colbert, theperformer, does himself see a
connection between the characterhe portrayed and the I don't
know, the public presentation ofDonald Trump. So I'm curious
what you think about hisColbert, influential in terms of
politics is he influencedAmerican Catholicism? What do
you think? Yeah, I
Stephanie Brehm (20:41):
think he's definitely influenced politics.
And I think, I think that washis goal. And so any other
influence was a byproduct. And Ithink that's how Catholicism
fits in with it. So I think formany Catholics, he, and only for
Catholics, he was able to reallyspeak to an experience that
(21:02):
others had, and so people feltan affinity for that. There,
there still are, one of thereasons why my book is
necessary, is that there were somany people who said, but he's
not really Catholic, like inreal life like that, and knowing
it, and that unawareness, of hisCatholicism is still prevalent,
(21:26):
so I don't think he actuallychanged how we think about
Catholicism. I think he affirmedways to be Catholic for certain
Catholics. And I think hebrought to the forefront,
certain Catholic ideas thatweren't necessarily given play
elsewhere. So like James Martintalking about social justice,
(21:47):
right. I don't know if thatbeing seen as a Catholic theme
was happening in other latenight shows or infotainment
shows.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (21:55):
A follow up on this because Johnny, I had
the same question. And, and,Stephen, you sort of set us up
by question like setting up thisquestion about, you know, is it
possible that this emphasis ontruthiness may have, in some
ways paved a road to an electionof Donald Trump? Right, like,
(22:15):
maybe not that direct, but I youknow, I wonder, is there
something to this buying intothe we just want to believe the
stuff that we want to believe?
Yeah,
Stephanie Brehm (22:27):
and I think I think also, for those who agree
with the human Colbert,politically, I think, Colbert,
the characters, truthiness,desensitized them. And so the
idea was, I think for manyTrump's not really a threat.
This is a joke, right? And sothe idea of taking this person
(22:48):
humorously made it so that hewas less scary, right, and it
was less important. And I thinkfor those who don't agree with
Colbert are the humanpolitically, it was what we've
seen this before. This isexactly you know, I feel it in
my gut, right. Like, the waythat Colbert mocked George W.
(23:10):
Bush became then the languagethat was able to be used later
on with Trump. About my realityis different than your reality.
My Truth is different than yourtruth. Um, and yeah, so I, I
don't think Colbert alone didthis, right. No, I'm
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (23:29):
not. Oh,
Stephanie Brehm (23:30):
I have two people. Right. He still only has
one vote as a senator. And, butI do think there was a
desensitization. I think it wasin the ether that a bombastic
person could be beloved, right.
Um, and I think the way that heapproached the quote, the
character approached truth,definitely shaped fake news
(23:51):
going forward.
Shanny Luft (23:54):
Stephanie and Bram is the author of America's most
famous Catholic according tohimself, Marilyn O'Donnell is
the author of ingrained habitsgrowing up Catholic in mid 20th
century America. It's fantasticto talk to you both about
American Catholicism about mediaabout the field of Religious
Studies. This is a greatconversation. Thank you both so
much. Thank you.
Mary Ellen O'Donnell (24:15):
This was a blast. Thanks, Danny.
Shanny Luft (24:18):
I hope you enjoyed the first episode of the second
semester of no cure forcuriosity. We have some great
conversations lined up for thisseason. I'm really looking
forward to sharing them with youand getting your thoughts and
feedback on our Facebook page.
no cure for curiosity. I'll seeyou in two weeks.
Gretel Stock (24:37):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated intentional and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
values of connecting,supporting, collaborating and
engaging. Learn more about UWStevens Point and all our
programs at uwsp.edu
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