March 1, 2022 • 34 mins
In December 2021, writer and director Lana Wachowski delivered the fourth movie in the Matrix universe, The Matrix Resurrections, after a 20-year wait. Shanny invited Kelly Wilz, Professor of Communications, and Cary Elza, Associate Professor of Media Studies, to chat about the the new film and the entire Matrix saga. What made the original film so impactful? Why did Lana Wachowski return to the world she co-created with her sister? Which narrative themes have changed, and which have stayed the same, since the original Matrix film? And why do we love Keanu Reeves? That's what this conversation is all about.
Extra credit readings for this episode:
- Emily VanDerWerff, "The Matrix 4," https://www.vox.com/culture/22847558/the-matrix-resurrections-4-spoilers-review-neo-therapy-mental-health-trauma
- Connie Hanzhang Jin, "Why Trans Fans Connect to 'The Matrix'" https://www.kqed.org/arts/13907504/trans-fans-the-matrix-lilly-lana-wachowski
- John Wilmes, "The Twisted, Stolen Legacy of the 'Matrix' Red Pill," https://www.theringer.com/movies/2021/12/21/22847157/the-matrix-red-pill-legacy
What did you think of The Matrix Resurrections? Share your thoughts on our Facebook page: www.facebook.com/NoCureforCuriosityPodcast. Or send comments to nocureforcuriosity@outlook.com.
Our intro music was written by UWSP music student Derek Carden and our logo is by artist and graphic designer Ryan Dreimiller.
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Our intro music was written by UWSP music student Derek Carden and our logo is by artist and graphic designer Ryan Dreimiller.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelly Wilz (00:00):
This is why I love Keanu. He dates age appropriate
Cary Elza (00:02):
He's a national treasure he must be protected at
women all costs.
Shanny Luft (00:11):
Welcome to no cure for curiosity, a podcast for
curious people. I am Shannyluft, associate professor of
religious studies, and AssociateDean of general education and
honors at the University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. In
today's episode, I brought backmy friends of the show Kelly
Wilz and Cary Elza to talk to meabout the Matrix Resurrections
(00:31):
by Lana Wachowski. I thought itwas pronounced Wachelski. But
I've heard some people say it'sWhakoski. I think I end up going
back and forth during ourconversation. Kelly Wilz is a
Professor of Communication atUWSP. She teaches courses on
women and gender studies, andher research focuses on the
intersection of media, gender,politics, and popular culture.
(00:52):
And she is the recent author ofthe book Resisting Rape Culture
through Popular Culture (00:55):
Sex after #MeToo. Cary Elza is
associate professor of MediaStudies at UWSP, where she
teaches courses onscreenwriting, film and media
analysis, history and genre. Herpublications include articles
and chapters on children's andteen media, science fiction and
fantasy series, new media andfandom and early animation. The
(01:17):
Matrix Resurrections is a returnto a world that Lana and Lilly
Wachowski launched in 1999 withThe Matrix, and then followed up
in 2003 with the Matrix Reloadedand The Matrix Revolutions. I'm
a huge fan of the Wachowskisbecause they have never been
afraid to take chances, eventhough their later films like
Speed Racer, Cloud Atlas, andJupiter Ascending, never
(01:40):
captured the critical andpopular attention that The
Matrix did. In my conversationwith Kelly and Cary, we talked
about the cultural impact of theoriginal Matrix film now over 20
years old. We talked about whyLana Wachowski returned to the
world of The Matrix. And howthis fourth film, The Matrix
Resurrections explores andreimagines some of the themes
(02:01):
from the earlier films. We alsoconsider how the cultural
politics of the last two decadesinform this new film. In our
conversation, Kelly, Cary, and Iassume that you've already seen
The Matrix Resurrections. If youhaven't, and you want to avoid
spoilers, check out the filmbefore listening to this
podcast, we start theconversation with me thinking
about how much our relationshipto technology has changed since
(02:24):
1999.
I made a list of what technologywas like in 1999, when The
Matrix came out, there was noiPhone in 1999, that didn't
actually come out until 2007.
There was no YouTube, there wasno Facebook, there was no
iTunes. The Internet, of courseexisted, but it was really slow.
(02:47):
It was not the place you went towatch movies or even videos
Amazon.com existed, it was abookstore. And I'm not even sure
if books are the I'm sureactually that books are not the
majority of their businesstoday. Any other thoughts? Any
memories about what you whatyour experience was with tech? I
think I had an AOL account in1990.
Kelly Wilz (03:11):
And we I remember getting my first smartphone in
like -- what like 2000-, like 8,maybe right or 9 or maybe even
later -- and being like, this isa computer like I was just blown
away at how much I could do. Andthen I got my first iPhone, holy
crap. And now I'm of course,like an iPhone junkie, whatever,
Shanny Luft (03:29):
Cary, what do you remember from 1999?
Cary Elza (03:31):
You are making me so nostalgic litany of
technological deficiencies. Oh,it was so great, right? I mean,
if you wanted to meet up withyour friends, so you had to
drive to the 711 and find a funbooth. So I mean, like if you
were out and about.
Shanny Luft (03:48):
And then the other thing, there's somebody thinks
about the original Matrix movie,because it had a big impact on
popular culture and media. Iremember when I saw the movie
for the first time, that bullettime effect when Neo dodges the
bullet the audience cheered thatreally struck me I never forgot
that, that people watching thescene of Neo dodging a bullet in
(04:10):
that kind of cool slow motionway that the witch housekeys
imagined it. That was such avisually inventive thing, that
it just blew people away therewas it was so advanced
technologically what are some ofthe other ways that the matrix
influenced culture or popularculture?
Cary Elza (04:26):
Um, I mean, I actually feel like this movie
had a significant impact on whatI ended up studying. You know, I
was in college, and I alreadykind of knew that I wanted to do
film but special effects in thematrix. And you're and this idea
that involves this, likeemotional catharsis that the
(04:47):
audience wants to share, andthey can't help but express
themselves in the theater. Thatjoy is one of the things that
drew me to film studies to beginwith. But yeah, I mean, I think
that I think that the the sheerjoy in the spectacle of
technology. You know, a lot ofpeople have written about that,
(05:08):
then and sense, but that struckme on like a visceral affective
level.
Shanny Luft (05:13):
So the fourth movie makes not only makes a lot of
references to other movies, butcharacters say lines from other
movies, they actually, I wassurprised how often they cut two
scenes from the movies. And Iwondered if some of that was to
help along the audience thatmight have remembered the first
Matrix movie, but didn't have itin the forefront of their head,
(05:34):
like super fans would. I wonderif the fourth movie was like,
aware of the problem of some ofits audience can quote back
entire paragraphs of dialogue.
Kelly Wilz (05:45):
Right.
Shanny Luft (05:46):
And others remember the character Neo and thought he
was kind of cool. And you'retrying to now be trying to
appeal to this much biggerrange.
Kelly Wilz (05:55):
I mean, that was me.
I went in. I didn't -- I havenot seen the films I did not
rewatch the entire trilogybefore I went to see
Resurrections, because I wasjust like, I don't have that
much time. But I want to seethis movie. And so for me, I
thought that was helpful interms of like, referencing, and
I knew enough I mean, again,like, yes, it's a complicated
movie, but it's not complicated.
So much so and it was such acultural phenomenon at the time,
(06:17):
but I think if you're going togo see it, that you have at
least some reference, maybe towhat it was about, and so maybe
you forgot that like how Neodied. I did, I forgot that he
died. I knew something happened,right? I thought maybe it was
Trinity who died I couldn'tremember. But that was sort of
important for me as a refresher,they couldn't do like a, you
know, you know how in thebeginning of summer, like the TV
(06:38):
series like last Friday, blah,blah, blah. This happened, you
know, on our last show, theycouldn't do that. And so I think
I think you're smart to pointout the fact that they had to
like actually use those actualscenes tore to make sense like
with with Neo's lips being sewntogether and then having the the
new I can't remember his namethe new actor who plays Agent
Smith, the his lips being solike that, too. I think in order
(07:01):
to make that make sense. Theyhave to show those flashes from
from scene to scene.
Shanny Luft (07:05):
Jonathan Groff is that actor?
Kelly Wilz (07:07):
Yes.
Shanny Luft (07:08):
It's Jonathan Groff from Hamilton?
Kelly Wilz (07:10):
Yes. And
Cary Elza (07:11):
he is a he's the kind
Kelly Wilz (07:13):
of frozen.
Cary Elza (07:15):
So we were watching this movie. I was like, That's
Christoph. Like, why is thisvoice so familiar? Oh, I love
him.
Kelly Wilz (07:23):
Yes.
Shanny Luft (07:25):
Oh, I want to just quickly touch on just a couple
other impacts that I could thinkof, both in and outside of the
movie. One is just virtualreality. I feel like right after
or around that time, there wasthen a lot of virtual reality
films, and a lot ofconversation. And we are now
only 20 years later, getting tothe point where that kind of
thing is a reality that peoplecan purchase. So the movies were
(07:48):
ahead of their time, but just alittle bit ahead of their time.
The other thing we have tocomment on is trans visibility.
The two people that made theMatrix movies the Wachowskis --
I pronounce it Wachelski. Doesanyone know if it's Whakaski or
Koski?
Cary Elza (08:00):
But I could be wrong.
Kelly Wilz (08:01):
Whakoski
Shanny Luft (08:02):
Okay. All right. So I've heard it pronounced both
ways. I'll go with WachowskiI'll go with the majority vote
on this one. So here's somethingI wanted to share with you and
get your thoughts about whywhenever you watch the original
three movies, they all end bysaying the scene goes black. And
then in that green font, itsays, By The Wachowski Brothers,
(08:23):
and even now when you watch themovies today, even though
they're streaming on HBO, theydidn't change that it still says
Wachowski Brothers,
Kelly Wilz (08:31):
I noticed that too.
Shanny Luft (08:32):
They were made so famous by these movies. But they
were made famous as brothers.
There's something about that Ifound really interesting,
because I thought it last night,I don't have a totally formed in
my head. But there was somethingabout the fact that when they
came out as trans, it's I thinkit maybe had a bigger impact,
because part of their brain wasthat they were brothers.
Kelly Wilz (08:51):
I mean, just my gut instinct is that maybe the
Warner Brothers didn't allowthem to, to put it two sisters
in the first three, because Iknow like, they wanted the
character switch to be trans inthe first, right. But then that
wouldn't pass, they wouldn'tfly. And so I mean, you can
still read them as trans I thinkin the in the initial movies.
But obviously that was a fightthat they didn't win, right? It
(09:13):
is interesting that not allsisters worked on this film. And
so and the idea of identity andidea of I'm not going to be
maybe part of something else,this is who I am and wanting to
really embrace that and reallysay like, this is my name. And I
don't want to dead name myself.
I don't want to be a sister.
This is who I am. And I mean,there's a lot of conversation in
(09:35):
this new film about like, f- youto all you fanboys who co opted
this and thought this was just amovie for coders, and for gamers
and who took my red pill andmade it into something
disgusting. I'm going to tellyou what this is about. I'm the
director and I'm going to tellyou very clearly what this movie
is about politically. And it'sgoing to be my story and I'm
(09:55):
reclaiming my story again. Andso I think that's part of that
conversation too.
Shanny Luft (10:00):
Yeah, I was really struck by that I thought I found
that fascinating also that theydidn't work on it together. Lana
was the only one who wanted toactually revisit this and tell
the story. And specifically,Kelly, I think it's about what
you're saying that maybe she waseither more concerned or more
insistent, or wanted to addressthe way that the original three
movies had been co opted in waysthat she hadn't intended them to
(10:22):
be.
Kelly Wilz (10:23):
Can I read the full quote, because it's really
pretty?
Shanny Luft (10:26):
Yes,
Kelly Wilz (10:26):
she said it, my dad died, and then his friend died,
and then my mom died, I didn'treally know how to process that
kind of grief. I hadn'texperienced it that closely, you
know, their lives are going toend and yet it was still at--
Lana Wachowski Quote (10:38):
it was still like, really hard. And
then my brain has always reachedinto my imagination. And one
night, I was just crying, and Icouldn't sleep. And suddenly, my
brain just exploded this wholestory. And I couldn't have my
(11:01):
mom and dad and I couldn't talkto my mom. And yet, suddenly, I
had Neo and Trinity, arguably,maybe the two most important
characters in my life. And itwas immediately comforting to
have these two characters aliveagain. And it's super simple.
(11:22):
And you can look at it and say,I Yeah, okay, these two people
die. And okay, bring these twopeople back to life. And oh,
does not feel good. Yeah, itdid. And in simple, and this is
what art does. And this is whatstories do. And they comfort us.
And they're important. And I wasvery non judgmental...
Kelly Wilz (11:43):
In the end credits of this film, she
says, for my mom and dad, loveis the genesis of everything.
And I thought that was sopretty. I never watched the
ending credits. But I was like,I better pay attention this
time. And I love that shedevoted this, that this is a
love story. And then she devotedit to her dead parents, right?
This is like, again, I was nevera giant fan of the first three,
I bawled my eyes off, in thetheater watching this, because
(12:08):
it was so emotional. And I feltlike this is the most beautiful
love story I've seen in a while.
And when Trinity saves Neo atthe end, and she's the one to
fly away. Oh my gosh, I couldn'tstop crying. So sorry about
tangent there. But I justthought, well, isn't it great
that that the matrix can beabout love, and it's, it's about
a lot of things. But at the endof the day, it's a frickin love
(12:30):
story. And I just thought thatwas gorgeous.
Cary Elza (12:33):
Before I forget, it wanted to kind of go back to
that 1999 idea again, becausethis this this original film is
it was co opted from the get go.
I mean, if you think of it aspart of kind of a series of
films that are coming out duringthat time, I like to think of
the big three as office space,Fight Club and the matrix. So
(12:54):
all of them come out reallyclose to each other. And they're
all about like a disaffectedwhite guy, although Keanu Reeves
is not white, right? He readsthis white in this film, and who
figures out that there's a wayout of perception.
Kelly Wilz (13:11):
Yeah,
Cary Elza (13:11):
the perception that she has found himself trapped in
and it ends with destruction,they all end with destruction.
Fight Club is the total likecollapse of capital
and Office Space, you know,spoiler alert, like the whole
building gets set on fire. Butthere's this idea that we need
(13:34):
destruction in order to create anew world in order to reclaim
the thing or honor our identitywhatever that whole kind of set
of ideas is pernicious and grossright at the turn of the
century. And it is strongentities only grown grown in
strength sense and yeah, so thered pill thing I think that it
(13:58):
was very brave to say you know,this is a term that you have
been using and you've been usingit incorrectly without
permission
Kelly Wilz (14:06):
And the rejection of the binary the idea being like
they name his his company binaryright like this is not subtle at
all the fact that we here thereis no choice over and over and
over again. I love that like youcannot watch this movie and say
that binaries are good or thatthey should exist right and to
(14:28):
your point to carry don't allthose three buoys ended in fire
to an explosion like literalfire right so the burn it down
sort of mentality and I think inthis movie, we're burning down
binaries we are living in themessy we are much more you know,
open to the fact that like thiswas it was never red or blue. It
was always like the choice hasalready been made an idea I did
(14:51):
talking about tran-ness toolike, there was never a choice
to-- I've always been trans thiswas always who I was. The only
choice was whether or not Ichose to, you know, present in a
certain way, and let otherpeople know that this has been
my identity for my entire time.
Like we like we used to say whenyou know, talking about, you
know, gay people that it's not achoice, right. It's biological
(15:12):
blah, blah. I think as we'veluckily moved on a lot, most
conversations about like, thishas always been who I am right?
And so is it really a choicewhen this is exactly what my
identity is?
Cary Elza (15:24):
The concept of synthesis is all over each of
these films, but especially thethird film and the fourth film.
And in the end, the fourth film,we have the synth synth SPN
Scythians, synthesis Viens, themachines who are working with
the humans, yeah, there's noeither or anymore. You know,
there's right there's this senseof boldness, yes. And
(15:48):
consideration for a variety ofperspectives, right. And I do
think that that's one thing doesfourth, really successfully,
Shanny Luft (15:56):
I want to stay on this theme of binary-ness for
men, because that seems to me tobe one of the primary things
that Lana Wachowski is thinkingabout when Neo is again, offered
a red and blue pill, one of thecharacters says, look, at this
point, you already know whichone you're going to do, like at
the point in which you'reoffered the pill. And that sort
of takes some of the hot air outof this idea that you're
(16:17):
choosing one path or the other.
In fact, when when the choice isoffered to you. By that point,
you kind of know what you'regoing to do, no one is going to
say, no, I'll take the blue pillbecause I'm not interested in
hearing the truth. I've comethis far in this movie,
Kelly Wilz (16:30):
right? Or when Morpheus is offered the red
pill, again, like that's whenthat line comes, there is no
choice, right? You know whatyou're going to do at this
point, even if you don'tremember who you are right now,
because you've been remade intothis different character. There
just is no choice. Right. So Ijust think I think it's the
whole conversation is justfascinating to any idea that
like, everyone wants to be wokenup from the truth, that there
(16:52):
either is a choice to remain inthe dark, or to find the truth.
Maybe we know the truth, and wejust don't want to come out of
our pods. This film is so muchsmarter than people give it
credit for. Like I just say,it's not just some like, stupid
love action movie. Like thereare so many smart themes in this
movie.
Cary Elza (17:10):
Oh, weirdly, too, you know that. That's one thing that
that some critics accused thethird movie of they cop out, you
know, they right like the peoplewho want to stay in the matrix
can stay in the matrix, thepeople who want to leave can
leave. And so some some peoplehave said that that's one of the
big problems of the originaltrilogy is that it refuses to
commit. And it allows thesheeple to stay asleep. Instead
(17:35):
of instead of waking people upto the the actual reality of the
world that they live in.
Shanny Luft (17:40):
That theme has been continued in the fourth movie,
in that last conversation thatNeo and Trinity have with the
analyst, it's still on that ideathat that some people are not
going to want to leave theanalyst is betting on the fact
that the world that the analystcreated was better.
Kelly Wilz (17:56):
Yeah,
Shanny Luft (17:56):
is the final theme of the fourth movie, really not
that is similar to the where thethird movie ends, which is some
people are going to want to stayand some people were going to
leave. And they went Trinity onone side. And then the analysts
on the other side, I was curiousabout how you read that
conversation in that debatebetween them.
Cary Elza (18:12):
So the analyst says that for 99.9% of people, you
know, they're balanced on thisprecipice of Fear and Desire.
They're always chasing somethingthey owe, there's something that
they want. And simultaneously,they're incredibly afraid that
they're gonna lose what theyalready have.
Kelly Wilz (18:31):
Right?
Cary Elza (18:31):
And again, like if that doesn't describe the
current state of affairs, like Idon't know, what does. We're
also afraid of losing whatlittle we've managed to get and
the privilege that we have, thatwe are that many people are so
afraid of losing any modicum ofprivilege. And that creates,
Kelly Wilz (18:52):
yes,
Cary Elza (18:53):
wow. So many problems
Kelly Wilz (18:55):
Well, and going back to the rejection of
the binary. He says like hispredecessor, just believe in
facts and figures. The analystnow is taking in humanity and
facts and figures, because asyou said, I mean, again, I wrote
down the entire conversationbecause I think his monologue
there. And I love Neil PatrickHarris, too, and he just did so
great, right? But he said henever bothered to care about you
(19:16):
know, that kind of stuff. Butthe only rule that matters is
the one inside your head. Andyou people believe the craziest
shit, why? What validates andmakes your fictions real
feelings, right? And this ideathat we as a culture, he calls
sheeple. He actually refers tohumanity as sheeple. And again,
he said, my productivity numbershave skyrocketed, because you
(19:38):
all are just, you know, you youjust think with your feelings,
there's no rational thought andholy crap, right? Post truth
era.
Cary Elza (19:47):
He says at one point feelings validate fictions and
make them real.
Kelly Wilz (19:51):
Yeah,
Cary Elza (19:52):
I wrote that down too yes, indeed, Neil Patrick
Harris.
Kelly Wilz (19:58):
Anything he said too me Here's the thing
Matrix Quote (20:00):
Here's the about the thing about feelings,
there's so much easier tocontrol than facts. Turns out in
my matrix, the worst we treatyou, the more we manipulate you,
the more energy you produce.
Kelly Wilz (20:12):
I've been setting productivity records every year
since I ta-- took over in thebest part zero resistance.
Shanny Luft (20:17):
When I first started watching the movie, the
very first time that this fourthone, I thought, why put Neo? Why
have him remember anything? Whyhave Thomas Anderson remember
anything about the matrix? Whyhave it be a video game? Because
if you want him to stay in thisstasis, if you don't want him to
remember anything, then like,you know, have them work at a
water processing plant, and notthink about matrix at all. But
(20:41):
what I thought was reallyinteresting, Kelly, I thought
you'd have some thoughts on thisis that the analyst creates all
that stuff as a way of kind ofgaslighting Neo,
Kelly Wilz (20:50):
yeah,
Shanny Luft (20:51):
Neo is not going to forget his identity completely
Kelly Wilz (20:54):
correct
Shanny Luft (20:55):
part of him is going to have these flashes of
memory of his previous life. Soyou have to address them. And
the way you address them, is theway the analysts does by just
saying there's somethingmentally wrong with you,
Kelly Wilz (21:06):
right.
Shanny Luft (21:06):
And therefore you need to take this medication
and, and trying to trick Neointo not not reading the signs
in front of him the way that hewants to.
Kelly Wilz (21:16):
That's why he puts Trinity Tiffany in the coffee
shop, right? Let them get closeenough that he's not going to if
he has these memories, he cansay, Well, it's because I see
you in their coffee shop everyday. And so there's a very easy
way. And I think that's sort ofthe the brilliance of it, right?
If he has these flashes, it's hecan say, oh, it's because this
person's actually in my lifeevery day. And I have an
(21:37):
emotional response to them in away that can easily be like cast
off as just like, well, it's sothere's always an easy
explanation. So I think that'ssort of the layer of of like
trickery happening with with theanalyst,
Cary Elza (21:49):
Emily VanDerWerff in Vox. I don't know
whether any of you read any ofher work on this. But did you
read the article on trauma thatshe wrote, I thought it was very
smart. So you know, she talksabout The Matrix. The new one is
a really successful allegory oftrauma. You know, the figure of
the Analyst, right is supposedto be helping Neo through his
(22:11):
psychosis to help him understandthat the matrix is not a real
world, but that the flashes ofthe matrix come through. Neil
Patrick Harris even uses theterm triggering,
Kelly Wilz (22:26):
yeah.
Cary Elza (22:27):
And to end the process of grounding that, you
know, many of us in therapy are,are familiar with that. So you
know, can you smell something?
Can you feel something? Can youtaste something, something that
you see? So that process and thefact that we're using this
terminology is very familiar tocertain people, but where she
also makes an argument, so youcan read, you can have a really
(22:48):
simplistic reading of this film,and say that, you know, modern
therapeutic practices are badlike they she says they're
designed to blind us from hearttruths. But she says that
there's also a reallyinteresting kind of deeper
interpretation of this film,which is suggesting that the
endless invocation of trauma isactually working against the
(23:13):
idea that popular culture hasbeen using trauma as a cheap
storytelling device. And that isbad.
Kelly Wilz (23:23):
Yeah,
Cary Elza (23:23):
Wha--what the Analyst does, right is take these
character like, he's a fan, likehe's a super fan. And he takes
these characters and he putsthem back in the matrix, he
doesn't allow them to die. Hedoesn't give them peace. And you
know, that's what we all do,right? When we have this
nostalgic urge for thesecharacters that we want them
resurrected. We don't want togive them peace,
Kelly Wilz (23:44):
right?
Cary Elza (23:45):
But in doing so, it's a denial of closure. And again,
I wish I could say this is myidea. This is not my idea. This
is Emily VanDerWerff's idea. Butit's a very interesting article
about how the film invokes theprocess of working through
trauma. And then also arguesthat recent films that have used
trauma as a storytelling deviceare cheapening it,
Kelly Wilz (24:04):
right?
Cary Elza (24:05):
And that also rhymes with this idea in this film that
the matrix takes stories, and itturns them into things that are
trivial, tawdry, cheap, and andI think that there's this
overall kind of statement beingmade here about the truth,
trivialization of trauma.
Kelly Wilz (24:23):
Yeah,
Shanny Luft (24:24):
I just want to say that I'll include a link to that
article that you're talkingabout in the show notes so that
people can find the link.
Kelly Wilz (24:29):
Oh, perfect. I'm thinking about an article I read
about cognitive behavioraltherapy, not working for
everyone. You know, it's thestandard thing that therapists
use counselors use whatever. Butif you are in like, extreme
pain, for example, and peoplethink that it's psychosomatic,
and yet you're actually likesuffering from actual physical
pain. It can be a form ofgaslighting for a counselor to
tell you that you just have torethink your thoughts. So as
(24:51):
many times as I tell myself tomeditate, or do yoga, or try not
to get these invasive thoughtsin my head, the world's fucked
right now.
Cary Elza (24:59):
Like again, In this idea of toxic individualism,
Kelly Wilz (25:02):
yes,
Cary Elza (25:02):
that we are all so you know, wrapped up in our own
problems. And we've been toldover and over again that we need
to solve our own problems,
Kelly Wilz (25:11):
right.
Cary Elza (25:11):
And maybe the problem is--
Kelly Wilz (25:12):
we can't self care ourselves out of this. We cannot
self care ourselves out of this.
So I think there's a reallyinteresting, I mean, there's a
reason they made the Analyst acounselor, right, I think that's
a really important choice. Theidea that, again, this is a
perfect way for him to sort oflike it's, I gaslight Neo, but I
think, again, that's just such asmart decision to have the
(25:32):
analysts be that kind ofcharacter in that occupation.
Cary Elza (25:36):
Mm hmm.
And that was, that's a greatpoint, too, that the original
architect was intentionally coldand arch, you know, and, and
used very big words, and was,you know, kept kept a distance.
And the Analyst instead is inwarm space with great glasses
and a cat. And so there's thisthis illusion of of closeness of
(25:59):
warmness of familiarity.
Kelly Wilz (26:01):
Right?
Cary Elza (26:02):
It's far more effective as a population. But I
don't think that this movie iscalling shenanigans on therapy
in general, I think that it isproblematizing the idea that
there is our responsibility tosolve everything in ourself.
Kelly Wilz (26:18):
Yes.
Cary Elza (26:19):
And, and that this culture of self care and trying
to do that can ultimately likeblind us to systemic problems,
right?
Shanny Luft (26:29):
You're reminding me another way that this fourth
Matrix movie problematizes, thebinary is, there are machines
who are on the human sidecipher, and the original movie
was a human who is on themachine side. But this movie
really fleshes it out andexplores a much more complicated
array of identities. There weremachines that were that helped
(26:53):
Neo get out of the matrix, theywere machines that helped them
rescue Trinity. This movie, Ithought was trying to really
explore a variety of kinds ofidentities, even between human
what it means to be human, andwhat it means to be a machine in
more complicated ways.
Kelly Wilz (27:10):
Well, and I wonder if this is a commentary on how
we are our technology, right,and our technology has only,
like enhanced our humanity forgood and bad, right? If you look
at like the way Twitter hashelped, like civil rights
movements with hashtags, I mean,if we look at the ways in which
some of the social media can bereally good, and also like, Oh,
now we have Nazis, again, right?
And so and I don't, because Ithink we're none of us are
(27:31):
divorced from technology in away, maybe we could have been
more in the 1990s I don't know.
But I feel like we're all anextension of our phones now. We
actually carry technology on usat all times. And we are sort of
we are all might be more pluggedin more than we used to be. So I
don't know if we can separateourselves in a way that makes
(27:51):
sense anymore. To be sort ofanti technology or anti
hardware. I don't know
Shanny Luft (27:57):
One last thing I'll ask you about. I have no idea to
go anywhere. But it's somethingthat struck me really watching
the original movies I couldreally completely forgot was
they are really into fetishculture.
Cary Elza (28:07):
Oh, yes.
Shanny Luft (28:07):
And S&M style and orgies?
Cary Elza (28:10):
Absolutely.
Shanny Luft (28:10):
There's an orgy in the middle of the of the second
Matrix movie. And that the thethe Merovingian he's got this
whole kind of fetish nightclub.
I remember the character I didnot remember that style. I feel
like they mainstreamed a certainstyle of clothes, cut leather
and corsets and stuff
Cary Elza (28:28):
Starts bound, right?
Shanny Luft (28:29):
Yes, yes, exactly.
Bound has that as well.
Cary Elza (28:31):
But I have I have to say, though, that,
um, I had completely forgottenabout the Merovingian scene in
the second one. And I hadremembered the, like, the rave.
And the second movie where we'recutting back and forth between
like the orgiastic rave, and Neoand Trinity doing it. And, and I
(28:53):
always, I remembered that asseeing, you know, a little
weird. But I had forgotten aboutthe Merovingian scene where he
like, gives the a woman somecode in the chocolate cake. And
Shanny Luft (29:06):
she has an orgasm.
Cary Elza (29:07):
And so I mentioned this to my husband,
and he's like, oh, yeah, thatscene with the cake. Like, that
was like the onething from the movie that stuck
in his mind. The second Matrixmovie is super obsessed with
sex. And in a way that's verydifferent from the first one and
the third one and then thefourth one, which are seeking to
(29:27):
establish the new Trinityrelationship is like pure and,
and sweet and holy, even, Iwould argue, a third, and and
the but the second one is likeall about primitive human
desires. And I had forgottenabout that. And I don't have
anything deep to say about it,but I did enjoy it.
Kelly Wilz (29:49):
well. And I wonder if elevating BDSM cultures
because they're the best aboutconsent because you have to have
safe words and it's like a veryclear conversation between
people if you want to look Likemodels of like healthy intimacy
BDSM culture is one of thehealthiest because you have to
have communication. So if theywere trying to like uplift,
healthier forms of intimacy thatmight be one of the reasons
Cary Elza (30:11):
Kelly that is a fantastic point. And then
there's the I think that itstarts with the the the kind of
popularization of BDSM culture,I think starts with the Catwoman
costume in Batman Returns.
Kelly Wilz (30:28):
I mean, I do think it's fascinating someone pointed
out that like they thought thatCarrie Anne Moss was the only
straight white says character ofthe all the main characters
everyone else is either clear,or they're not white or I mean,
and I had to go back and likecount cuz I don't I wasn't
familiar with all of the actors.
But I thought like that is aconscious decision. Like that's
Shanny Luft (30:46):
Yeah,
Kelly Wilz (30:46):
and that's pretty amazing for you know, it
shouldn't be that amazing in2022 But to have every main
character, you do not have thesort of normative identity that
we usually see and especiallyaction film.
Shanny Luft (31:00):
You know what, Kelly, you just made me realize
is that Keanu Reeves andCarrie-Anne Moss are roughly the
same age.
Kelly Wilz (31:05):
Right?
Shanny Luft (31:06):
And that is really unusual. Right, Carrie-Anne Moss
is I don't know if she's in her40s or 50s
Kelly Wilz (31:10):
They're in their 50s
Cary Elza (31:12):
50s.
Shanny Luft (31:12):
Okay, so that it's interesting because if you know
about Keanu Reeve's ownrelationship he he's a with a
woman who was like roughly hissame age in real life.
Kelly Wilz (31:21):
women who are age appropriate, which is not
Leonardo DiCaprio, this is why Ilove Keanu. He dates age
appropriate women
Cary Elza (31:29):
He is a national treasure, he must be protected
at all costs.
Shanny Luft (31:35):
Yeah, and so the idea of an age appropriate
relationship between a man and awoman that's really unusual, it
I think it fits into theWachowskis' commitment to
representation, right? They'rejust really interested in
representing as many differentkinds of people and that
includes people of differentages, something that is rare in
Hollywood.
Cary Elza (31:55):
Honestly, that was one of my very favorite parts of
this movie is that Carrie-AnneMoss was allowed to actually age
and She still kick ass, right?
Kelly Wilz (32:02):
Yeah, Yeah,
Cary Elza (32:04):
so she's just as badass as she and she still
wears badass outfits. She stillis awesome. And she's allowed
this agency and she makes thechoices right. One of the
important lines in the movie isNeo's, most important choice is
not his to make.
Kelly Wilz (32:20):
Yes.
Cary Elza (32:21):
Oh, I love that.
Kelly Wilz (32:22):
Yeah.
Cary Elza (32:23):
Oh, well, this, it does feel like a movie that is
trying to consciously to dosomething different
with these characters.
Kelly Wilz (32:33):
And when she's like, don't call me
fucking Tiffany, Chad. Like, Iwas just like, oh, yeah, like
you feel that like, like femalerage. I want to be more than
just a mother, right? I want towork on my bikes and like you
want to fit me into this box.
And when I showed you that Icould maybe be this character in
this video game. You laughed atme. I don't like it when you
(32:53):
laugh at me. Like she wasallowed to be strong in a way
that I again as a 50 year oldwoman. Yes, you're exactly
right. Like this is amazing.
Shanny Luft (33:01):
it strikes me that the way that you gaslight, the
Keanu Reeves character is yougive him this job in which he
used to be fairly successful.
And he's trying to like recreatehis success. And the way that
Carrie-Anne Moss's character'sgaslit is she's got a family.
Kelly Wilz (33:15):
Yeah,
Shanny Luft (33:15):
that commitment to these other people is keeping
her from recognizing herself. Itis so much fun to talk to the
two of you. Thank you so muchfor this conversation. It was a
total blast. I really
Kelly Wilz (33:25):
It was a joy. I feel smarter because I got to talk to
you about and I also appreciatethis movie a lot more than I did
even I loved it already. But Ilove it more after talking to
both of you.
Cary Elza (33:36):
Thank you so much. This is really wonderful.
Shanny Luft (33:43):
Thank you again to Kelly Wilz, professor of
communications, and Cary Elza,associate professor of Media
Studies at UWSP. If you enjoyedthis episode of no cure for
curiosity, please rate andreview us in the podcast app you
use and join our Facebookcommunity. I would love to hear
your thoughts about thisconversation or anything about
the Matrix films.
Gretel Stock (34:04):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated, intentional, and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
values of connecting,supporting, collaborating, and
engaging. Learn more aboutUW-Stevens Point and all our
programs at uwsp.edu.
This is why I love Keanu. He dates age appropriate
Cary Elza (00:02):
He's a national treasure he must be protected at
women all costs.
Shanny Luft (00:11):
Welcome to no cure for curiosity, a podcast for
curious people. I am Shannyluft, associate professor of
religious studies, and AssociateDean of general education and
honors at the University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. In
today's episode, I brought backmy friends of the show Kelly
Wilz and Cary Elza to talk to meabout the Matrix Resurrections
(00:31):
by Lana Wachowski. I thought itwas pronounced Wachelski. But
I've heard some people say it'sWhakoski. I think I end up going
back and forth during ourconversation. Kelly Wilz is a
Professor of Communication atUWSP. She teaches courses on
women and gender studies, andher research focuses on the
intersection of media, gender,politics, and popular culture.
(00:52):
And she is the recent author ofthe book Resisting Rape Culture
through Popular Culture (00:55):
Sex after #MeToo. Cary Elza is
associate professor of MediaStudies at UWSP, where she
teaches courses onscreenwriting, film and media
analysis, history and genre. Herpublications include articles
and chapters on children's andteen media, science fiction and
fantasy series, new media andfandom and early animation. The
(01:17):
Matrix Resurrections is a returnto a world that Lana and Lilly
Wachowski launched in 1999 withThe Matrix, and then followed up
in 2003 with the Matrix Reloadedand The Matrix Revolutions. I'm
a huge fan of the Wachowskisbecause they have never been
afraid to take chances, eventhough their later films like
Speed Racer, Cloud Atlas, andJupiter Ascending, never
(01:40):
captured the critical andpopular attention that The
Matrix did. In my conversationwith Kelly and Cary, we talked
about the cultural impact of theoriginal Matrix film now over 20
years old. We talked about whyLana Wachowski returned to the
world of The Matrix. And howthis fourth film, The Matrix
Resurrections explores andreimagines some of the themes
(02:01):
from the earlier films. We alsoconsider how the cultural
politics of the last two decadesinform this new film. In our
conversation, Kelly, Cary, and Iassume that you've already seen
The Matrix Resurrections. If youhaven't, and you want to avoid
spoilers, check out the filmbefore listening to this
podcast, we start theconversation with me thinking
about how much our relationshipto technology has changed since
(02:24):
1999.
I made a list of what technologywas like in 1999, when The
Matrix came out, there was noiPhone in 1999, that didn't
actually come out until 2007.
There was no YouTube, there wasno Facebook, there was no
iTunes. The Internet, of courseexisted, but it was really slow.
(02:47):
It was not the place you went towatch movies or even videos
Amazon.com existed, it was abookstore. And I'm not even sure
if books are the I'm sureactually that books are not the
majority of their businesstoday. Any other thoughts? Any
memories about what you whatyour experience was with tech? I
think I had an AOL account in1990.
Kelly Wilz (03:11):
And we I remember getting my first smartphone in
like -- what like 2000-, like 8,maybe right or 9 or maybe even
later -- and being like, this isa computer like I was just blown
away at how much I could do. Andthen I got my first iPhone, holy
crap. And now I'm of course,like an iPhone junkie, whatever,
Shanny Luft (03:29):
Cary, what do you remember from 1999?
Cary Elza (03:31):
You are making me so nostalgic litany of
technological deficiencies. Oh,it was so great, right? I mean,
if you wanted to meet up withyour friends, so you had to
drive to the 711 and find a funbooth. So I mean, like if you
were out and about.
Shanny Luft (03:48):
And then the other thing, there's somebody thinks
about the original Matrix movie,because it had a big impact on
popular culture and media. Iremember when I saw the movie
for the first time, that bullettime effect when Neo dodges the
bullet the audience cheered thatreally struck me I never forgot
that, that people watching thescene of Neo dodging a bullet in
(04:10):
that kind of cool slow motionway that the witch housekeys
imagined it. That was such avisually inventive thing, that
it just blew people away therewas it was so advanced
technologically what are some ofthe other ways that the matrix
influenced culture or popularculture?
Cary Elza (04:26):
Um, I mean, I actually feel like this movie
had a significant impact on whatI ended up studying. You know, I
was in college, and I alreadykind of knew that I wanted to do
film but special effects in thematrix. And you're and this idea
that involves this, likeemotional catharsis that the
(04:47):
audience wants to share, andthey can't help but express
themselves in the theater. Thatjoy is one of the things that
drew me to film studies to beginwith. But yeah, I mean, I think
that I think that the the sheerjoy in the spectacle of
technology. You know, a lot ofpeople have written about that,
(05:08):
then and sense, but that struckme on like a visceral affective
level.
Shanny Luft (05:13):
So the fourth movie makes not only makes a lot of
references to other movies, butcharacters say lines from other
movies, they actually, I wassurprised how often they cut two
scenes from the movies. And Iwondered if some of that was to
help along the audience thatmight have remembered the first
Matrix movie, but didn't have itin the forefront of their head,
(05:34):
like super fans would. I wonderif the fourth movie was like,
aware of the problem of some ofits audience can quote back
entire paragraphs of dialogue.
Kelly Wilz (05:45):
Right.
Shanny Luft (05:46):
And others remember the character Neo and thought he
was kind of cool. And you'retrying to now be trying to
appeal to this much biggerrange.
Kelly Wilz (05:55):
I mean, that was me.
I went in. I didn't -- I havenot seen the films I did not
rewatch the entire trilogybefore I went to see
Resurrections, because I wasjust like, I don't have that
much time. But I want to seethis movie. And so for me, I
thought that was helpful interms of like, referencing, and
I knew enough I mean, again,like, yes, it's a complicated
movie, but it's not complicated.
So much so and it was such acultural phenomenon at the time,
(06:17):
but I think if you're going togo see it, that you have at
least some reference, maybe towhat it was about, and so maybe
you forgot that like how Neodied. I did, I forgot that he
died. I knew something happened,right? I thought maybe it was
Trinity who died I couldn'tremember. But that was sort of
important for me as a refresher,they couldn't do like a, you
know, you know how in thebeginning of summer, like the TV
(06:38):
series like last Friday, blah,blah, blah. This happened, you
know, on our last show, theycouldn't do that. And so I think
I think you're smart to pointout the fact that they had to
like actually use those actualscenes tore to make sense like
with with Neo's lips being sewntogether and then having the the
new I can't remember his namethe new actor who plays Agent
Smith, the his lips being solike that, too. I think in order
(07:01):
to make that make sense. Theyhave to show those flashes from
from scene to scene.
Shanny Luft (07:05):
Jonathan Groff is that actor?
Kelly Wilz (07:07):
Yes.
Shanny Luft (07:08):
It's Jonathan Groff from Hamilton?
Kelly Wilz (07:10):
Yes. And
Cary Elza (07:11):
he is a he's the kind
Kelly Wilz (07:13):
of frozen.
Cary Elza (07:15):
So we were watching this movie. I was like, That's
Christoph. Like, why is thisvoice so familiar? Oh, I love
him.
Kelly Wilz (07:23):
Yes.
Shanny Luft (07:25):
Oh, I want to just quickly touch on just a couple
other impacts that I could thinkof, both in and outside of the
movie. One is just virtualreality. I feel like right after
or around that time, there wasthen a lot of virtual reality
films, and a lot ofconversation. And we are now
only 20 years later, getting tothe point where that kind of
thing is a reality that peoplecan purchase. So the movies were
(07:48):
ahead of their time, but just alittle bit ahead of their time.
The other thing we have tocomment on is trans visibility.
The two people that made theMatrix movies the Wachowskis --
I pronounce it Wachelski. Doesanyone know if it's Whakaski or
Koski?
Cary Elza (08:00):
But I could be wrong.
Kelly Wilz (08:01):
Whakoski
Shanny Luft (08:02):
Okay. All right. So I've heard it pronounced both
ways. I'll go with WachowskiI'll go with the majority vote
on this one. So here's somethingI wanted to share with you and
get your thoughts about whywhenever you watch the original
three movies, they all end bysaying the scene goes black. And
then in that green font, itsays, By The Wachowski Brothers,
(08:23):
and even now when you watch themovies today, even though
they're streaming on HBO, theydidn't change that it still says
Wachowski Brothers,
Kelly Wilz (08:31):
I noticed that too.
Shanny Luft (08:32):
They were made so famous by these movies. But they
were made famous as brothers.
There's something about that Ifound really interesting,
because I thought it last night,I don't have a totally formed in
my head. But there was somethingabout the fact that when they
came out as trans, it's I thinkit maybe had a bigger impact,
because part of their brain wasthat they were brothers.
Kelly Wilz (08:51):
I mean, just my gut instinct is that maybe the
Warner Brothers didn't allowthem to, to put it two sisters
in the first three, because Iknow like, they wanted the
character switch to be trans inthe first, right. But then that
wouldn't pass, they wouldn'tfly. And so I mean, you can
still read them as trans I thinkin the in the initial movies.
But obviously that was a fightthat they didn't win, right? It
(09:13):
is interesting that not allsisters worked on this film. And
so and the idea of identity andidea of I'm not going to be
maybe part of something else,this is who I am and wanting to
really embrace that and reallysay like, this is my name. And I
don't want to dead name myself.
I don't want to be a sister.
This is who I am. And I mean,there's a lot of conversation in
(09:35):
this new film about like, f- youto all you fanboys who co opted
this and thought this was just amovie for coders, and for gamers
and who took my red pill andmade it into something
disgusting. I'm going to tellyou what this is about. I'm the
director and I'm going to tellyou very clearly what this movie
is about politically. And it'sgoing to be my story and I'm
(09:55):
reclaiming my story again. Andso I think that's part of that
conversation too.
Shanny Luft (10:00):
Yeah, I was really struck by that I thought I found
that fascinating also that theydidn't work on it together. Lana
was the only one who wanted toactually revisit this and tell
the story. And specifically,Kelly, I think it's about what
you're saying that maybe she waseither more concerned or more
insistent, or wanted to addressthe way that the original three
movies had been co opted in waysthat she hadn't intended them to
(10:22):
be.
Kelly Wilz (10:23):
Can I read the full quote, because it's really
pretty?
Shanny Luft (10:26):
Yes,
Kelly Wilz (10:26):
she said it, my dad died, and then his friend died,
and then my mom died, I didn'treally know how to process that
kind of grief. I hadn'texperienced it that closely, you
know, their lives are going toend and yet it was still at--
Lana Wachowski Quote (10:38):
it was still like, really hard. And
then my brain has always reachedinto my imagination. And one
night, I was just crying, and Icouldn't sleep. And suddenly, my
brain just exploded this wholestory. And I couldn't have my
(11:01):
mom and dad and I couldn't talkto my mom. And yet, suddenly, I
had Neo and Trinity, arguably,maybe the two most important
characters in my life. And itwas immediately comforting to
have these two characters aliveagain. And it's super simple.
(11:22):
And you can look at it and say,I Yeah, okay, these two people
die. And okay, bring these twopeople back to life. And oh,
does not feel good. Yeah, itdid. And in simple, and this is
what art does. And this is whatstories do. And they comfort us.
And they're important. And I wasvery non judgmental...
Kelly Wilz (11:43):
In the end credits of this film, she
says, for my mom and dad, loveis the genesis of everything.
And I thought that was sopretty. I never watched the
ending credits. But I was like,I better pay attention this
time. And I love that shedevoted this, that this is a
love story. And then she devotedit to her dead parents, right?
This is like, again, I was nevera giant fan of the first three,
I bawled my eyes off, in thetheater watching this, because
(12:08):
it was so emotional. And I feltlike this is the most beautiful
love story I've seen in a while.
And when Trinity saves Neo atthe end, and she's the one to
fly away. Oh my gosh, I couldn'tstop crying. So sorry about
tangent there. But I justthought, well, isn't it great
that that the matrix can beabout love, and it's, it's about
a lot of things. But at the endof the day, it's a frickin love
(12:30):
story. And I just thought thatwas gorgeous.
Cary Elza (12:33):
Before I forget, it wanted to kind of go back to
that 1999 idea again, becausethis this this original film is
it was co opted from the get go.
I mean, if you think of it aspart of kind of a series of
films that are coming out duringthat time, I like to think of
the big three as office space,Fight Club and the matrix. So
(12:54):
all of them come out reallyclose to each other. And they're
all about like a disaffectedwhite guy, although Keanu Reeves
is not white, right? He readsthis white in this film, and who
figures out that there's a wayout of perception.
Kelly Wilz (13:11):
Yeah,
Cary Elza (13:11):
the perception that she has found himself trapped in
and it ends with destruction,they all end with destruction.
Fight Club is the total likecollapse of capital
and Office Space, you know,spoiler alert, like the whole
building gets set on fire. Butthere's this idea that we need
(13:34):
destruction in order to create anew world in order to reclaim
the thing or honor our identitywhatever that whole kind of set
of ideas is pernicious and grossright at the turn of the
century. And it is strongentities only grown grown in
strength sense and yeah, so thered pill thing I think that it
(13:58):
was very brave to say you know,this is a term that you have
been using and you've been usingit incorrectly without
permission
Kelly Wilz (14:06):
And the rejection of the binary the idea being like
they name his his company binaryright like this is not subtle at
all the fact that we here thereis no choice over and over and
over again. I love that like youcannot watch this movie and say
that binaries are good or thatthey should exist right and to
(14:28):
your point to carry don't allthose three buoys ended in fire
to an explosion like literalfire right so the burn it down
sort of mentality and I think inthis movie, we're burning down
binaries we are living in themessy we are much more you know,
open to the fact that like thiswas it was never red or blue. It
was always like the choice hasalready been made an idea I did
(14:51):
talking about tran-ness toolike, there was never a choice
to-- I've always been trans thiswas always who I was. The only
choice was whether or not Ichose to, you know, present in a
certain way, and let otherpeople know that this has been
my identity for my entire time.
Like we like we used to say whenyou know, talking about, you
know, gay people that it's not achoice, right. It's biological
(15:12):
blah, blah. I think as we'veluckily moved on a lot, most
conversations about like, thishas always been who I am right?
And so is it really a choicewhen this is exactly what my
identity is?
Cary Elza (15:24):
The concept of synthesis is all over each of
these films, but especially thethird film and the fourth film.
And in the end, the fourth film,we have the synth synth SPN
Scythians, synthesis Viens, themachines who are working with
the humans, yeah, there's noeither or anymore. You know,
there's right there's this senseof boldness, yes. And
(15:48):
consideration for a variety ofperspectives, right. And I do
think that that's one thing doesfourth, really successfully,
Shanny Luft (15:56):
I want to stay on this theme of binary-ness for
men, because that seems to me tobe one of the primary things
that Lana Wachowski is thinkingabout when Neo is again, offered
a red and blue pill, one of thecharacters says, look, at this
point, you already know whichone you're going to do, like at
the point in which you'reoffered the pill. And that sort
of takes some of the hot air outof this idea that you're
(16:17):
choosing one path or the other.
In fact, when when the choice isoffered to you. By that point,
you kind of know what you'regoing to do, no one is going to
say, no, I'll take the blue pillbecause I'm not interested in
hearing the truth. I've comethis far in this movie,
Kelly Wilz (16:30):
right? Or when Morpheus is offered the red
pill, again, like that's whenthat line comes, there is no
choice, right? You know whatyou're going to do at this
point, even if you don'tremember who you are right now,
because you've been remade intothis different character. There
just is no choice. Right. So Ijust think I think it's the
whole conversation is justfascinating to any idea that
like, everyone wants to be wokenup from the truth, that there
(16:52):
either is a choice to remain inthe dark, or to find the truth.
Maybe we know the truth, and wejust don't want to come out of
our pods. This film is so muchsmarter than people give it
credit for. Like I just say,it's not just some like, stupid
love action movie. Like thereare so many smart themes in this
movie.
Cary Elza (17:10):
Oh, weirdly, too, you know that. That's one thing that
that some critics accused thethird movie of they cop out, you
know, they right like the peoplewho want to stay in the matrix
can stay in the matrix, thepeople who want to leave can
leave. And so some some peoplehave said that that's one of the
big problems of the originaltrilogy is that it refuses to
commit. And it allows thesheeple to stay asleep. Instead
(17:35):
of instead of waking people upto the the actual reality of the
world that they live in.
Shanny Luft (17:40):
That theme has been continued in the fourth movie,
in that last conversation thatNeo and Trinity have with the
analyst, it's still on that ideathat that some people are not
going to want to leave theanalyst is betting on the fact
that the world that the analystcreated was better.
Kelly Wilz (17:56):
Yeah,
Shanny Luft (17:56):
is the final theme of the fourth movie, really not
that is similar to the where thethird movie ends, which is some
people are going to want to stayand some people were going to
leave. And they went Trinity onone side. And then the analysts
on the other side, I was curiousabout how you read that
conversation in that debatebetween them.
Cary Elza (18:12):
So the analyst says that for 99.9% of people, you
know, they're balanced on thisprecipice of Fear and Desire.
They're always chasing somethingthey owe, there's something that
they want. And simultaneously,they're incredibly afraid that
they're gonna lose what theyalready have.
Kelly Wilz (18:31):
Right?
Cary Elza (18:31):
And again, like if that doesn't describe the
current state of affairs, like Idon't know, what does. We're
also afraid of losing whatlittle we've managed to get and
the privilege that we have, thatwe are that many people are so
afraid of losing any modicum ofprivilege. And that creates,
Kelly Wilz (18:52):
yes,
Cary Elza (18:53):
wow. So many problems
Kelly Wilz (18:55):
Well, and going back to the rejection of
the binary. He says like hispredecessor, just believe in
facts and figures. The analystnow is taking in humanity and
facts and figures, because asyou said, I mean, again, I wrote
down the entire conversationbecause I think his monologue
there. And I love Neil PatrickHarris, too, and he just did so
great, right? But he said henever bothered to care about you
(19:16):
know, that kind of stuff. Butthe only rule that matters is
the one inside your head. Andyou people believe the craziest
shit, why? What validates andmakes your fictions real
feelings, right? And this ideathat we as a culture, he calls
sheeple. He actually refers tohumanity as sheeple. And again,
he said, my productivity numbershave skyrocketed, because you
(19:38):
all are just, you know, you youjust think with your feelings,
there's no rational thought andholy crap, right? Post truth
era.
Cary Elza (19:47):
He says at one point feelings validate fictions and
make them real.
Kelly Wilz (19:51):
Yeah,
Cary Elza (19:52):
I wrote that down too yes, indeed, Neil Patrick
Harris.
Kelly Wilz (19:58):
Anything he said too me Here's the thing
Matrix Quote (20:00):
Here's the about the thing about feelings,
there's so much easier tocontrol than facts. Turns out in
my matrix, the worst we treatyou, the more we manipulate you,
the more energy you produce.
Kelly Wilz (20:12):
I've been setting productivity records every year
since I ta-- took over in thebest part zero resistance.
Shanny Luft (20:17):
When I first started watching the movie, the
very first time that this fourthone, I thought, why put Neo? Why
have him remember anything? Whyhave Thomas Anderson remember
anything about the matrix? Whyhave it be a video game? Because
if you want him to stay in thisstasis, if you don't want him to
remember anything, then like,you know, have them work at a
water processing plant, and notthink about matrix at all. But
(20:41):
what I thought was reallyinteresting, Kelly, I thought
you'd have some thoughts on thisis that the analyst creates all
that stuff as a way of kind ofgaslighting Neo,
Kelly Wilz (20:50):
yeah,
Shanny Luft (20:51):
Neo is not going to forget his identity completely
Kelly Wilz (20:54):
correct
Shanny Luft (20:55):
part of him is going to have these flashes of
memory of his previous life. Soyou have to address them. And
the way you address them, is theway the analysts does by just
saying there's somethingmentally wrong with you,
Kelly Wilz (21:06):
right.
Shanny Luft (21:06):
And therefore you need to take this medication
and, and trying to trick Neointo not not reading the signs
in front of him the way that hewants to.
Kelly Wilz (21:16):
That's why he puts Trinity Tiffany in the coffee
shop, right? Let them get closeenough that he's not going to if
he has these memories, he cansay, Well, it's because I see
you in their coffee shop everyday. And so there's a very easy
way. And I think that's sort ofthe the brilliance of it, right?
If he has these flashes, it's hecan say, oh, it's because this
person's actually in my lifeevery day. And I have an
(21:37):
emotional response to them in away that can easily be like cast
off as just like, well, it's sothere's always an easy
explanation. So I think that'ssort of the layer of of like
trickery happening with with theanalyst,
Cary Elza (21:49):
Emily VanDerWerff in Vox. I don't know
whether any of you read any ofher work on this. But did you
read the article on trauma thatshe wrote, I thought it was very
smart. So you know, she talksabout The Matrix. The new one is
a really successful allegory oftrauma. You know, the figure of
the Analyst, right is supposedto be helping Neo through his
(22:11):
psychosis to help him understandthat the matrix is not a real
world, but that the flashes ofthe matrix come through. Neil
Patrick Harris even uses theterm triggering,
Kelly Wilz (22:26):
yeah.
Cary Elza (22:27):
And to end the process of grounding that, you
know, many of us in therapy are,are familiar with that. So you
know, can you smell something?
Can you feel something? Can youtaste something, something that
you see? So that process and thefact that we're using this
terminology is very familiar tocertain people, but where she
also makes an argument, so youcan read, you can have a really
(22:48):
simplistic reading of this film,and say that, you know, modern
therapeutic practices are badlike they she says they're
designed to blind us from hearttruths. But she says that
there's also a reallyinteresting kind of deeper
interpretation of this film,which is suggesting that the
endless invocation of trauma isactually working against the
(23:13):
idea that popular culture hasbeen using trauma as a cheap
storytelling device. And that isbad.
Kelly Wilz (23:23):
Yeah,
Cary Elza (23:23):
Wha--what the Analyst does, right is take these
character like, he's a fan, likehe's a super fan. And he takes
these characters and he putsthem back in the matrix, he
doesn't allow them to die. Hedoesn't give them peace. And you
know, that's what we all do,right? When we have this
nostalgic urge for thesecharacters that we want them
resurrected. We don't want togive them peace,
Kelly Wilz (23:44):
right?
Cary Elza (23:45):
But in doing so, it's a denial of closure. And again,
I wish I could say this is myidea. This is not my idea. This
is Emily VanDerWerff's idea. Butit's a very interesting article
about how the film invokes theprocess of working through
trauma. And then also arguesthat recent films that have used
trauma as a storytelling deviceare cheapening it,
Kelly Wilz (24:04):
right?
Cary Elza (24:05):
And that also rhymes with this idea in this film that
the matrix takes stories, and itturns them into things that are
trivial, tawdry, cheap, and andI think that there's this
overall kind of statement beingmade here about the truth,
trivialization of trauma.
Kelly Wilz (24:23):
Yeah,
Shanny Luft (24:24):
I just want to say that I'll include a link to that
article that you're talkingabout in the show notes so that
people can find the link.
Kelly Wilz (24:29):
Oh, perfect. I'm thinking about an article I read
about cognitive behavioraltherapy, not working for
everyone. You know, it's thestandard thing that therapists
use counselors use whatever. Butif you are in like, extreme
pain, for example, and peoplethink that it's psychosomatic,
and yet you're actually likesuffering from actual physical
pain. It can be a form ofgaslighting for a counselor to
tell you that you just have torethink your thoughts. So as
(24:51):
many times as I tell myself tomeditate, or do yoga, or try not
to get these invasive thoughtsin my head, the world's fucked
right now.
Cary Elza (24:59):
Like again, In this idea of toxic individualism,
Kelly Wilz (25:02):
yes,
Cary Elza (25:02):
that we are all so you know, wrapped up in our own
problems. And we've been toldover and over again that we need
to solve our own problems,
Kelly Wilz (25:11):
right.
Cary Elza (25:11):
And maybe the problem is--
Kelly Wilz (25:12):
we can't self care ourselves out of this. We cannot
self care ourselves out of this.
So I think there's a reallyinteresting, I mean, there's a
reason they made the Analyst acounselor, right, I think that's
a really important choice. Theidea that, again, this is a
perfect way for him to sort oflike it's, I gaslight Neo, but I
think, again, that's just such asmart decision to have the
(25:32):
analysts be that kind ofcharacter in that occupation.
Cary Elza (25:36):
Mm hmm.
And that was, that's a greatpoint, too, that the original
architect was intentionally coldand arch, you know, and, and
used very big words, and was,you know, kept kept a distance.
And the Analyst instead is inwarm space with great glasses
and a cat. And so there's thisthis illusion of of closeness of
(25:59):
warmness of familiarity.
Kelly Wilz (26:01):
Right?
Cary Elza (26:02):
It's far more effective as a population. But I
don't think that this movie iscalling shenanigans on therapy
in general, I think that it isproblematizing the idea that
there is our responsibility tosolve everything in ourself.
Kelly Wilz (26:18):
Yes.
Cary Elza (26:19):
And, and that this culture of self care and trying
to do that can ultimately likeblind us to systemic problems,
right?
Shanny Luft (26:29):
You're reminding me another way that this fourth
Matrix movie problematizes, thebinary is, there are machines
who are on the human sidecipher, and the original movie
was a human who is on themachine side. But this movie
really fleshes it out andexplores a much more complicated
array of identities. There weremachines that were that helped
(26:53):
Neo get out of the matrix, theywere machines that helped them
rescue Trinity. This movie, Ithought was trying to really
explore a variety of kinds ofidentities, even between human
what it means to be human, andwhat it means to be a machine in
more complicated ways.
Kelly Wilz (27:10):
Well, and I wonder if this is a commentary on how
we are our technology, right,and our technology has only,
like enhanced our humanity forgood and bad, right? If you look
at like the way Twitter hashelped, like civil rights
movements with hashtags, I mean,if we look at the ways in which
some of the social media can bereally good, and also like, Oh,
now we have Nazis, again, right?
And so and I don't, because Ithink we're none of us are
(27:31):
divorced from technology in away, maybe we could have been
more in the 1990s I don't know.
But I feel like we're all anextension of our phones now. We
actually carry technology on usat all times. And we are sort of
we are all might be more pluggedin more than we used to be. So I
don't know if we can separateourselves in a way that makes
(27:51):
sense anymore. To be sort ofanti technology or anti
hardware. I don't know
Shanny Luft (27:57):
One last thing I'll ask you about. I have no idea to
go anywhere. But it's somethingthat struck me really watching
the original movies I couldreally completely forgot was
they are really into fetishculture.
Cary Elza (28:07):
Oh, yes.
Shanny Luft (28:07):
And S&M style and orgies?
Cary Elza (28:10):
Absolutely.
Shanny Luft (28:10):
There's an orgy in the middle of the of the second
Matrix movie. And that the thethe Merovingian he's got this
whole kind of fetish nightclub.
I remember the character I didnot remember that style. I feel
like they mainstreamed a certainstyle of clothes, cut leather
and corsets and stuff
Cary Elza (28:28):
Starts bound, right?
Shanny Luft (28:29):
Yes, yes, exactly.
Bound has that as well.
Cary Elza (28:31):
But I have I have to say, though, that,
um, I had completely forgottenabout the Merovingian scene in
the second one. And I hadremembered the, like, the rave.
And the second movie where we'recutting back and forth between
like the orgiastic rave, and Neoand Trinity doing it. And, and I
(28:53):
always, I remembered that asseeing, you know, a little
weird. But I had forgotten aboutthe Merovingian scene where he
like, gives the a woman somecode in the chocolate cake. And
Shanny Luft (29:06):
she has an orgasm.
Cary Elza (29:07):
And so I mentioned this to my husband,
and he's like, oh, yeah, thatscene with the cake. Like, that
was like the onething from the movie that stuck
in his mind. The second Matrixmovie is super obsessed with
sex. And in a way that's verydifferent from the first one and
the third one and then thefourth one, which are seeking to
(29:27):
establish the new Trinityrelationship is like pure and,
and sweet and holy, even, Iwould argue, a third, and and
the but the second one is likeall about primitive human
desires. And I had forgottenabout that. And I don't have
anything deep to say about it,but I did enjoy it.
Kelly Wilz (29:49):
well. And I wonder if elevating BDSM cultures
because they're the best aboutconsent because you have to have
safe words and it's like a veryclear conversation between
people if you want to look Likemodels of like healthy intimacy
BDSM culture is one of thehealthiest because you have to
have communication. So if theywere trying to like uplift,
healthier forms of intimacy thatmight be one of the reasons
Cary Elza (30:11):
Kelly that is a fantastic point. And then
there's the I think that itstarts with the the the kind of
popularization of BDSM culture,I think starts with the Catwoman
costume in Batman Returns.
Kelly Wilz (30:28):
I mean, I do think it's fascinating someone pointed
out that like they thought thatCarrie Anne Moss was the only
straight white says character ofthe all the main characters
everyone else is either clear,or they're not white or I mean,
and I had to go back and likecount cuz I don't I wasn't
familiar with all of the actors.
But I thought like that is aconscious decision. Like that's
Shanny Luft (30:46):
Yeah,
Kelly Wilz (30:46):
and that's pretty amazing for you know, it
shouldn't be that amazing in2022 But to have every main
character, you do not have thesort of normative identity that
we usually see and especiallyaction film.
Shanny Luft (31:00):
You know what, Kelly, you just made me realize
is that Keanu Reeves andCarrie-Anne Moss are roughly the
same age.
Kelly Wilz (31:05):
Right?
Shanny Luft (31:06):
And that is really unusual. Right, Carrie-Anne Moss
is I don't know if she's in her40s or 50s
Kelly Wilz (31:10):
They're in their 50s
Cary Elza (31:12):
50s.
Shanny Luft (31:12):
Okay, so that it's interesting because if you know
about Keanu Reeve's ownrelationship he he's a with a
woman who was like roughly hissame age in real life.
Kelly Wilz (31:21):
women who are age appropriate, which is not
Leonardo DiCaprio, this is why Ilove Keanu. He dates age
appropriate women
Cary Elza (31:29):
He is a national treasure, he must be protected
at all costs.
Shanny Luft (31:35):
Yeah, and so the idea of an age appropriate
relationship between a man and awoman that's really unusual, it
I think it fits into theWachowskis' commitment to
representation, right? They'rejust really interested in
representing as many differentkinds of people and that
includes people of differentages, something that is rare in
Hollywood.
Cary Elza (31:55):
Honestly, that was one of my very favorite parts of
this movie is that Carrie-AnneMoss was allowed to actually age
and She still kick ass, right?
Kelly Wilz (32:02):
Yeah, Yeah,
Cary Elza (32:04):
so she's just as badass as she and she still
wears badass outfits. She stillis awesome. And she's allowed
this agency and she makes thechoices right. One of the
important lines in the movie isNeo's, most important choice is
not his to make.
Kelly Wilz (32:20):
Yes.
Cary Elza (32:21):
Oh, I love that.
Kelly Wilz (32:22):
Yeah.
Cary Elza (32:23):
Oh, well, this, it does feel like a movie that is
trying to consciously to dosomething different
with these characters.
Kelly Wilz (32:33):
And when she's like, don't call me
fucking Tiffany, Chad. Like, Iwas just like, oh, yeah, like
you feel that like, like femalerage. I want to be more than
just a mother, right? I want towork on my bikes and like you
want to fit me into this box.
And when I showed you that Icould maybe be this character in
this video game. You laughed atme. I don't like it when you
(32:53):
laugh at me. Like she wasallowed to be strong in a way
that I again as a 50 year oldwoman. Yes, you're exactly
right. Like this is amazing.
Shanny Luft (33:01):
it strikes me that the way that you gaslight, the
Keanu Reeves character is yougive him this job in which he
used to be fairly successful.
And he's trying to like recreatehis success. And the way that
Carrie-Anne Moss's character'sgaslit is she's got a family.
Kelly Wilz (33:15):
Yeah,
Shanny Luft (33:15):
that commitment to these other people is keeping
her from recognizing herself. Itis so much fun to talk to the
two of you. Thank you so muchfor this conversation. It was a
total blast. I really
Kelly Wilz (33:25):
It was a joy. I feel smarter because I got to talk to
you about and I also appreciatethis movie a lot more than I did
even I loved it already. But Ilove it more after talking to
both of you.
Cary Elza (33:36):
Thank you so much. This is really wonderful.
Shanny Luft (33:43):
Thank you again to Kelly Wilz, professor of
communications, and Cary Elza,associate professor of Media
Studies at UWSP. If you enjoyedthis episode of no cure for
curiosity, please rate andreview us in the podcast app you
use and join our Facebookcommunity. I would love to hear
your thoughts about thisconversation or anything about
the Matrix films.
Gretel Stock (34:04):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated, intentional, and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
values of connecting,supporting, collaborating, and
engaging. Learn more aboutUW-Stevens Point and all our
programs at uwsp.edu.
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