October 18, 2021 • 29 mins
Shanny talks about Zombies with Kelly J Baker, a religious studies PhD, editor, and award-winning author of five books, including The Zombies are Coming, and Cary Elza, professor Media Studies at UWSP, who teaches courses on screenwriting, film and media analysis, history and genre.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cary Elza (00:00):
I absolutely love that kind of fantasy of you
(00:03):
yourself alone, rebuilding theworld. And then I think about
what I would do if I was thelast person on Earth. And the
answer is just like sleep. Iwould sleep. I would read some
books and then I would give up.
Shanny Luft (00:29):
Welcome to no cure for curiosity, a podcast by and
for curious people. I am ShannyLuft, Associate Dean of general
education and a professor ofreligion in America at the
University of Wisconsin StevensPoint. With Halloween
approaching, it seems like agood time to talk about zombies.
The first modern zombie moviewas Night of the Living Dead by
George Romero in 1968. Romerohas released a half dozen zombie
(00:53):
movies since then, and nowthere's video games and comic
books and TV shows and moremovies every year. Shaun of the
Dead, 28 Days Later, zombieland, WARM BODIES, World War Z,
Army of the Dead. Those are justa handful of movies from the
last 20 years on television andfilm. There are zombie stories
for every taste, zombiecomedies, zombie procedurals,
(01:14):
zombie Japanese period dramas,and of course, The Walking Dead,
which has been one of the mostpopular television shows since
2010. Why are zombie stories sorelentlessly popular? And so
pardon the pun unkillable. Iinvited two guests, Kelly J.
Baker and Cary Elza to wrestleover this question with me.
Kelly J. Baker resides inFlorida. She is a religious
(01:35):
studies PhD and editor and awardwinning author of articles and
five books including The zombiesare coming. My second guest is
Cary Elza, professor of MediaStudies at the University of
Wisconsin-Stevens Point. Sheteaches courses on
screenwriting, film and mediaanalysis, history and genre, the
conversation began with CaryElza, who reflected on COVID and
(01:55):
how different this pandemicexperience has been from what
film and television has preparedus for.
Cary Elza (02:01):
Thank you so much for inviting me back. Again. This is
so much fun, and I love talkingabout zombies. So I really,
really appreciate being includedhere. Kelly, when I was reading
your book, you know, there's somuch glee associated with
preparing for the zombieapocalypse, right? It's fun,
it's exciting. It's a you know,it's kind of a fresh start. And
(02:24):
the the abolition of all therules. We're not getting like
this is like, this is not, thisis not fun. It's just tiring.
And, you know, walking throughour empty building or empty
office building today and justsad,
Kelly Baker (02:42):
Just Right, right.
Shanny Luft (02:44):
This is not the apocalypse we were promised
sucks. Right?
Kelly Baker (02:48):
Right. It's not.
No, I mean, and I think thatkind of the interesting piece of
it too is that like continuedlike, excitement that you find
with these like zombie preppers.
Or even like students who arethinking through this as a fun
game, right, like, tagged yourfive people that would be on
your zombie apocalypse team, youknow, and Twitter on Facebook,
when you see these sorts ofthings going around that Yeah,
(03:08):
everybody is like, geared up andready to go. And I'm with the
COVID pandemic, it is sad. We'vebeen preparing and preparing and
then you're sort of kind ofperpetually stuck. I mean, this
is one of the things that I keepthinking about what this
pandemic is that, um, that itjust the unending this of it, I
(03:29):
think makes it harder to manage,where at least zombies it's like
society, zombies, something new,right? And with this, it's like,
oh, no deal, this thing,tedious, awful thing, right, day
after day, you know, as I scrollTwitter, and I'm like, let me
look at the numbers of ICU bedsin Florida today and the number
of cases in my county, right?
This is not the future that wewere promised.
Cary Elza (03:52):
No,
Kelly Baker (03:53):
not at all.
Cary Elza (03:54):
It doesn't feel like a future either. It's not we
haven't wiped things away tohave a clean slate. And anyway,
all the same problems are reallyvery much still there. So yeah.
Shanny Luft (04:05):
And that was really I think my first question is why
does the zombie apocalypse seemlike fun? Right? What does it I
mean, this is a genre that'sbeen around for decades.
Clearly, this genre andspecifically this monster has
staying power, in a way I don'tthink is comparable to other
monsters. I feel like I'm a bigfan of horror movies. There are
(04:27):
certain genres of monsters thatcome and go right devil movies
had a moment in the 60s and 70s.
Vampires. You can't get enoughof them in TV and film after
about five, seven years. We'redone with vampires with zombies.
I feel like it's been 20 years.
I've been walking dead has beenon for 10 years. And when the
show came on, I thought zombieswere already passe. Yeah, this
(04:50):
it has sticking power in a waythat I don't know any other
monster movie monster has.
Kelly Baker (04:56):
I mean, I just am always impressed at how
malleable zombies are. Right,like they just can stand in for
anything, right? Like theyabsolutely work for consumerism,
for terrorism, for concernsabout epidemics, environmental
disasters, like they just workin this way for all kinds of
things. And so people can usethem often in combinations of
(05:19):
those ideas to like, they appearin pop culture, and I keep
waiting for them to end. Like Ikeep having these moments where
I'm like, we just can't keepgoing on with it. And I just
knew that when Disney had azombies movie, which I've
watched 30 times with my tween,I was like, oh, like Disney has
zombies like we're clearly done.
Shanny Luft (05:37):
What's the what's the Disney zombie?
Kelly Baker (05:39):
Oh, gosh, it's Disney's zombies. It's a
musical. It's cheerleaders. It'szombie.
Cary Elza (05:44):
Oh, I know of this one. But I haven't seen it yet.
Kelly Baker (05:48):
It has so many ear worms that I'm always like,
parents beware, you're going tobe thinking the song about a
girl on a zombie for like yearsto come. And now 33 My husband
like that, it's you that I waslike, oh, did they can use
zombies like we're done? Right?
Like they reached like
Shanny Luft (06:03):
Peak zombie.
Cary Elza (06:04):
That's the nail in the coffin.
Kelly Baker (06:05):
But it's not the case. Like it's still they still
work and you still find peopleusing them. And you know, I just
watched army of the dead onNetflix. And I thought like,
it's another zombie movie. Whatcan it do? And then I was like,
oh, no, it's really good.
Cary Elza (06:19):
Lots of stuff. Yeah.
Kelly Baker (06:20):
Like, there's lots of stuff going on here. And
I'm super fascinated, and Ican't wait to write about it.
And then I was like, oh, no, I'mnever done with zombies. It's a
perpetual thing. I'm kind oflike the monster is perpetual.
Like it is just kind of strangeto me. And folks try all the
time to get me to predict likethe end. And I'm just like, I
don't know if there is one.
Cary Elza (06:41):
Yeah, I so I teach another class on vampires. Oh,
one of the other reasons that Ireally wanted to talk to you,
Kelly is because I know youteach an apocalypse class. And I
also teach an apocalypse class.
Kelly Baker (06:51):
That's awesome.
Cary Elza (06:51):
Yeah. So it's apocalypse in film and
television. So it's specificallyfrom the media studies angle,
rather than the religiousstudies angle, do I think that
we cover a lot of the sametopics? And so I do zombies in
that class. So I'm with you onthe idea of the metaphor, right.
Zombies can be anything, anykind of mass of people who
aren't thinking for themselves.
And so I'm not going to I'mgoing to say nothing. But I
(07:13):
think that we can think of a lotof great metaphors for today
about masses of people who areletting other people guide their
thoughts. And I don't think thatthat concept, the kind of
autonomous mass without, youknow, freewill is going to go
away anytime soon. Whereas thevampire, with whom I've been in
love, for many years, you know,the vampire is about repressed
(07:37):
sexuality. The Vampire is aboutthe dark side, if humanity but
if you kind of lighten it up toomuch, if you make it sparkle, if
you if you define it in all ofthese different ways that the
vampire has been defanged, losesits own for a while. So I do
believe that the vampire willcome back. But But it needs it
(07:58):
needs to start a new cycle,
Shanny Luft (08:03):
right?
Cary Elza (08:03):
The zombie doesn't have that problem. It's an
infinitely malleable metaphor,like you said,
Shanny Luft (08:08):
zombies might be particularly resonant for the
last 20 years, because of thetwo or three major social life,
they tap into two or threespecific kinds of fears. There's
kind of a global warming,climate change kind of end of
the world fear, right? What dowe happen when, you know, we run
out of certain kinds of food orparts of the globe become
uninhabitable. And then ofcourse, viruses, those two
(08:31):
things seem to be two of themost resonant fears of the
moment. And zombies, I thinkjust seem really perfect for
that.
Cary Elza (08:38):
It also taps into our kind of need to
think about global crises interms of masses of people, if
that makes any sense. You know,we have a hard time getting
thinking things specifically, wecan hear these human interest
stories of, you know, peoplebeing affected by you know,
major environmentalcatastrophes, you know, war, all
of these things. We have all ofthis information coming at us
(09:00):
all the time. And we just, wekind of get numb. And so it's I
think that we start thinking interms of masses of people, too.
And I think that the zombie kindof taps into that. I don't know,
I think it's a very human thingto do. But I think the zombie
expresses that too maybe
Shanny Luft (09:17):
taps into it in a really specific way. Kelly,
recently, I saw Zack Snyder'sarmy of the dead part of the
plot was the government built agiant wall around Las Vegas, and
basically, the zombies juststayed in there. They kind of
created like a zombie cultureinside of that wall. And after I
saw that movie, it suddenlystruck me, there are lots of
zombie stories about walls.
George Romero's 2005. Film Landof the Dead is almost the same
(09:41):
exact plot. It's about thegovernment building a wall to
protect humans from zombies,World War Z, there's a giant
wall around Israel designed toprotect zombies in that show The
Walking Dead, they have to builda wall every time they move.
Kelly Baker (09:55):
Right. Right.
Shanny Luft (09:56):
So I was really interested in your thoughts
about that because the last 20years of zombie story seems to
have prepped Americans forthinking about how to keep out
hordes. And then suddenly, thatbecame central to presidential
politics.
Kelly Baker (10:10):
I didn't decide to take that on. But I think it's
such a good point about the wayover the last 20 years, so much
of American politics inparticular has been about
creating an other and likehaving this idea of an axis of
evil, right, that then becomeshordes of refugees or immigrants
(10:31):
or these sorts of things, right,and like what we can do to
protect ourselves from this andsome kind of way. And so I
definitely think it is somethingwe should pay attention to the
very us versus them nature ofthese zombie stories. And I
think the Walking Dead doesthis, especially in the earlier
seasons remarkably well. So ifyou're a part of this group,
(10:52):
then like we have your back,anybody out fair game in some
sort of way, and will handle youdifferently. And I think that
that's so baked in to the wayRomero imagined zombies, you
know, like, that was like myfavorite quote by him, right?
It's what we're most afraid ofis the neighbors, the people
that we have to deal with here,you know, and so yeah, like,
(11:14):
zombies are scary, but like,really, what we have to worry
about are other people. And Ithink with this wall impulse,
you see that again, and again,we're not necessarily afraid of
the neighbors, but we are afraidof all these other people that
we've marked as different fromus or threatening or that our
politicians have done a reallygood job of as marking as other
(11:35):
threatening dangerous. And soyeah, I think it is kind of
interesting that that becamesuch a central point of the
Trump administration, right,like it's we're just going to
wall ourselves in and, and Ialso think of all the people
that are like building bunkers,were the end of the world to
right, who were like wallingthemselves in and like covering
it, right, and trying to createthese spaces where they don't
have to worry about all theseother people. And they can just
(11:58):
protect the people that theywant that I would also use that
as an extension of what you'retalking about as well.
Cary Elza (12:03):
This is making me think of this kind of
distinction that we see betweenrecent representations of walls,
and the sort of stuff that wesee in like the 1950s and 1960s,
about bunkers, that it's yourresponsibility as a citizen to
create a bunker for yourself andin your family to create a fort
that that nobody can penetrate.
(12:26):
But it's just for you, right,it's your individual
responsibility. And yet we finseeing these walls of
communities, but there issomething different, right,
because we you know, there's thewall and warm bodies, there's
the wall in Zombieland, too. Sothere's these attempts to create
these kinds of utopias, buttheir communities. So the wall
(12:47):
is, is something that a group ofpeople do together now, instead
of it's just yourresponsibility.
Shanny Luft (12:54):
Yet the wall over and over again and these zombie
movies represents savingcivilization, and also
demarcating civilize fromuncivilized and healthy from
diseased Americans are primed tothink walls are how you save a
culture. They're how you keepyour people alive, your
community alive. And So lo andbehold, that idea seems
(13:15):
persuasive.
Cary Elza (13:16):
They're how you maintain the status quo. So
there's, it's how you maintainedvestiges of the old world,
right? An individual alone can'tdo it. It's only a group of like
minded people who can maintainthe old order, for better or
worse,
Kelly Baker (13:32):
You know, I think about the season of The Walking
Dead, where they find thesuburban community behind the
wall, you know, and like,there's a really amazing thing
that always stuck with me islike, you know, they're clean,
they have houses, they have easyaccess to food, you know, one of
the like, suburbanites is like,Oh, I was really deeply worried
that you wouldn't like the food.
You know, one of the survivorsis like, this is what you people
(13:55):
worry about. So that like thedistinction between, you know,
the people that are likefighting for survival, versus
the people that have justcreated this enclave where
they're very safe and verycomfortable, and everyone else
is not. And you find this inRomero movies to the people that
are able to like, who arewealthy right and can kind of
live in an apartment buildingand be safe while everyone else
(14:15):
scavenged is and I think it's soimportant to that it reflects
communities that we inhabit, inour day to day lives to the
people that can afford to livebehind the gate or can afford to
live in the neighborhoods thathave resources versus the people
that don't. And the pandemicright now is really showing that
to us. That was there but now ishyper visible, and I think is
(14:36):
really important as well. One ofthe things that I kept thinking
about during this pandemic is weknew there was a structural
inequity, we knew this kind ofstuff was happening, but like
now because of who has access tothe vaccine, right, who can be
protected who has to go to workevery day and doesn't have the
privilege of staying at home.
(14:57):
You see -- you can really seethis kind of stuff playing out
Cary Elza (15:00):
You're a lot higher up on Maslow -- Maslow's
hierarchy.
Kelly Baker (15:05):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Yeah.
Shanny Luft (15:07):
The other thing about walls in zombie movies is
that, and this is a lesson, Iguess, the public in general has
not learned or a lot of peoplehave not learned is, while some
zombie movies never work, right,the point of the wall is it
always gets torn down, there'salways a crack in zombie movies,
the thesis seems to be it isimpossible to keep this wall
(15:27):
maintained, there's always goingto be a crack, either from
inside or from outside,something's going to go wrong.
And in every one of those, thatthis is why in The Walking Dead
every season, they have to finda new community is their wall
breaks down. And so they have tofind a new civilization
somewhere.
Cary Elza (15:44):
And the problem is never structural. The problem is
people. Like teenagers sneakingout people not paying attention
when they're supposed to belooking out. It's always people,
people are the problem. That's Imean, of course, that's Romero's
big point.
Kelly Baker (15:59):
Well, and it's interesting, me too, because
I've read a number of reallyinteresting zombie short fiction
that kind of thinks through thistoo. And there's a great story
about teenagers rebelling byclimbing the fence, right, like
so the idea is that everybody'ssupposed to be safe. So what are
teenagers going to do? Well,they're going to go out and get
bitten by zombies to rebel, likehaving this kind of perfect, and
(16:19):
a lot of ways like it's a greatshort story. But this idea that,
like you said, it's not so muchthat the problem is those were
keeping out, right? It's likewe've contained everybody and in
the system just can't exist likethis, because people are
contradictory and messy, and doall these things and don't think
good consequences. And that'swhat I think is intriguing about
grasping it to the currentpolitical situation, right. And
(16:40):
this sort of discussion with theTrump administration about a
wall, as if that fixeseverything, like you just brick
it up, and then you don't worryabout anything anymore. And it's
like, oh, no, it has to bemaintained, right? There are
always things that can go wrong.
Like, it's never as easy as youthink, separate people from
people and all these crises andproblems, it just it doesn't
work.
Shanny Luft (17:01):
What does zombie movies teach us about? Who
doesn't survive? Like, what arethe qualities of a person that
basically gets them killed off?
Cary Elza (17:10):
Don't be an asshole.
Kelly Baker (17:11):
Yeah, I think that is definitely one I would tell
students to to not be afeminist. You're this strong
woman figure who like refuses togo back to these traditional
gender norms, you can almostguarantee it, you're just going
like, it doesn't take long. Ithink the genre still is
entrenched in the sort of raciststereotypes of Hollywood too.
(17:32):
And that people of color do notdo well, in these environments.
Cary Elza (17:36):
From the jump, right?
I mean, just right, from thejobs end of night of living
dead, we established that trope.
Kelly Baker (17:42):
Yeah, and and that just very much continues through
and, and I talked about this inthe book, and how the walking
dead in particular, and some ofthe earlier seasons, have these
really gruesome deaths for blackcharacters, right, like some of
the most painful, awful deathsto watch are these black
characters. And how problematicit is that that black pain is
(18:03):
okay to be spectacle, but a lotof the other white characters
get these off screen or likefuneral esque kind of death. And
that that, of course, is still aproblem genre, and is very much
there. But yeah, you see thatkind of thing happen, as Carrie
said, you know, the people thatdeserve it. And I thought this
while I was watching Army of theDead, there was one particular
(18:25):
character that I was like, oh,yeah, you're going down, and I'm
ready for it. vincible enoughwatcher to be like, okay, yeah,
let's see what happens to thisperson. And that that is baked
into it in some sort of way.
Shanny Luft (18:38):
The issue of gender roles in zombie films, I wanted
to ask you both about that.
Cary Elza (18:42):
I was just gonna say it seems to be a method of
survival, not just in zombiefilms, but in a lot of post
apocalyptic films for women totake on these traditional roles.
And I mean, you can think of itas a strategy. I mean, you know,
when you see these ladies doinglaundry and Walking Dead, I
mean, they have found a niche aplace and then you community,
(19:04):
and it might have been the onethat they chose before, but it
becomes a strategy for survival.
So I think that says a lot aboutcling to the status quo and
clinging to community andnostalgia for earlier modes,
gender and--
Shanny Luft (19:19):
right. And that, that goes back to the earlier
question I was asking about thepopularity of of zombies is
because in almost every zombiestory, there is a clear
demarcation of gender roles,right? Men become hunters, and
defenders, they're, you know, ifyou can't shoot a gun or a
crossbow, you're not useful inthis society as a man. And women
(19:42):
have the role of taking care ofchildren of cleaning. You know,
they're, they're the gatherersthat happens over and over again
in zombie stories. And that, Iguess, is part of the appeal for
some people to imagine this kindof fantasy about returning to a
simpler time when there were twogenders and they both had you
know separate spheres?
Kelly Baker (20:02):
Yeah. And it all made sense, right? I mean, so I
think part of the nostalgiapiece of this is it's like, can
we get back to a moment wherewomen were women and men were
men and gender is binary, right?
And men were in charge. Andwomen are support, right? So
there is something about thekind of instantiation of like,
traditional patriarchy that Ithink really appeals to people
(20:22):
about this, that they're like,oh, like, this does make sense.
Like, we missed this. And soyeah, so I think it, it's
interesting about whatcharacters have to be off,
right? In these scenarios,because they don't fit so neatly
into gender divides, or theydon't, or their, or their
sexuality doesn't fit either,right? Because a lot of these
(20:43):
are just adamantly heterosexual
Cary Elza (20:47):
gotta repopulate.
Right?
Kelly Baker (20:49):
You do, right? And so anything else just doesn't
work.
Cary Elza (20:54):
But and this is the the other reason that the zombie
metaphor can just live onforever and ever, never, because
humans are going to eff it up ina zillion different ways. Like,
we're never going to get done.
It's, yeah, it's, it's infinite.
And our foibles are failures.
Kelly Baker (21:11):
And I think that that's the thing that is always
most interesting to me aboutthese apocalyptic narratives in
general is that they get rid ofcomplexity and ambiguity like
that, it just makes things makesense. But there's something
really appealing about lifebeing simplified, and us having
(21:32):
really clear cut places foreverything to go to the
categories are neat, and thatthey're not like all slammed
together and messy, that life isinherently less complicated,
when what you have to figure outis what you're going to eat.
There's a way in which theapocalypse is like the easy
button.
Cary Elza (21:49):
I was just gonna say, in the early days of the
pandemic, I wanted to readnothing but Laura Ingalls
Wilder, I just, I like wentthrough the whole thing. And I
know that those are superproblematic books, believe me, I
know. But it's just somethingabout just worrying about
putting your crops in making itthrough the long winter. That
(22:12):
sort of stuff was deeplyappealing to me at the time,
again, like Maslow's hierarchyof needs, you know, it's just
like knocking us back down tothe bottom, like, one step at a
time. It's okay, one step at atime. Do you have food on the
table? And you know, as we gethigher up in that hierarchy,
life gets so hard, right? Can Iself actualized? Absolutely not.
(22:35):
But you know, I'm supposed to betrying, I guess it but it's
like, the lower we get, the morethings make sense, like a
biological level, you know,
Shanny Luft (22:45):
that's something this conversation is helping me
see is that the zombieapocalypse, the world that comes
after is not a fantasy about afuture. It's a fantasy about a
past, because the zombieapocalypse is really returning
to an agrarian society. It is akind of fantasy world of
farming, where the men arefarmers, and the women are, you
know, raising children is theappeal of that is the
(23:05):
simplicity.
Kelly Baker (23:06):
I always have this idea that zombie apocalypse is
or westerns, there's somethingabout them that just kind of fit
with the genre of the Western,the men are men and they have
done and they can challenge eachother, right? There's all this
space and all these sorts ofthings, right? That you just
live your life out in the wild.
So you know, you're notconcerned with like, the 500
(23:27):
email you've received fromsomething, you know, like,
because like you because there'sno electricity and you know,
this is not something thatyou're dealing with. And so you
can see how that fantasy work.
Cary Elza (23:42):
Kelly, your point about this kind of being the new
frontier and a new opportunityto colonize space. It's so
important, I think, and it's,that's one of the reasons it's
so resonant It's because whenyou have all of this space
that's taken up by other peopleand then you all of a sudden get
the chance to treat those otherpeople as non people right and
(24:06):
we have a new frontier, you havethe new opportunity to homestead
to change your life for thebetter and I think if that shot
if like Rick Grimes riding hishorse down the middle of Italy,
you know down Peachtree Street,Atlanta, and I think about just
how close all of the postapocalyptic movies not just the
(24:27):
zombie movie but most of theseapocalyptic movies Mad Max Fury
Road, Western right are to thatbasic fantasy that we have of
establishing civilization in themidst of wilderness. I think
that is such a good point.
Kelly Baker (24:44):
I'm always fascinated by these post
apocalyptic movies with theruins the ruins of civilization,
you know, I Am Legend. We arenot going to argue about whether
it's a vampire zombie movie,whatever. But like but the you
know, there's the scenes wherelike, Will Smith is standing in
the city. And like deer aregalloping near him. Because
nature has overtaken things. Andit's so different. And so it's
(25:07):
always really fascinating for meto see how all of a sudden we
just lose all these people.
They're like they're just gone.
And the potential andpossibility is there in a way
that it might not have been
Shanny Luft (25:19):
28 Days opens with the scenes of this guy walking
through London, right, and it'scompletely vacant. And those
those images, like the images ofAtlanta, are really remarkable.
He spends a couple of minutesjust walking around the city.
And what I hadn't realized whileI was watching it, but Kelly,
you're helping me think abouthis zombie movies with regard to
(25:42):
cities seem to solve what theysee as the problem of a city.
The problem is all those damnpeople,
Kelly Baker (25:49):
right? Right.
Shanny Luft (25:50):
cities seem better than zombie movies. Because you
can go anywhere and do anythingand you've got like this, you've
got this great world in front ofyou. I'm putting all this in
quotes. Obviously, this is notmy actual opinion. But it does
seem to be like the an argumentthat zombie films make, it
certainly changes people'srelationship with it in a way
that's not nice, all togethernegative. Because those shots of
(26:14):
abandoned buildings are notalways horrific, right? They're
They look like promise, right?
Or possibility or something likethat.
Cary Elza (26:22):
This is my favorite sub genre of the post
apocalyptic movie. So Iabsolutely love that kind of
fantasy of You, yourself alone,rebuilding the world. And then I
think about what I would do if Iwas the last person on Earth.
And the answer is just like,sleep. I would sleep, I would
(26:46):
read some books. And then Iwould give up.
Kelly Baker (26:50):
I think there's something to be said to you
about the way in which folksdon't understand that people
find the apocalypse appealingbecause it's also about meaning
making. So it's saying thatthere's something beyond like,
these individual contradictorylives, that we're involved with,
that there's something biggerthan us, the world is going to
(27:13):
end. So how do we order ourlives? How do we understand the
information that we'reprocessing? I think that's a
really fascinating thing. And Ithink it's even more fascinating
in a moment of extreme climatechange, where we're actually
looking at like, Is this the endof the planet as we know it? And
I think that's a harder thing.
To wrap your head around thanzombies.
Cary Elza (27:34):
Yeah,
Kelly Baker (27:34):
zombies, like we have a plan, we have a solution,
we can make it through oceansbecoming so hot that things die
and our planet can't work theway it's supposed to. That
potential of an end is muchharder for us to like, think
through and hold on to. And I'mnot sure we can actually hold on
to it on a day to day and beable to get out of bed in the
(27:57):
morning.
Cary Elza (27:58):
It's just really nice. When our bad guys have a
face. Yeah, yeah. Tangible. Andwe know who the good guys are.
And the bad guys are and you canshoot the bad guys. That's a lot
easier than dealing with climatechange.
Kelly Baker (28:14):
Yeah, the the solution feel you can hold on to
them.
Shanny Luft (28:18):
Right. And the challenge can be overcome by a
handful of smart individuals whohave almost no tools but a gun.
Cary Elza (28:26):
They don't even have to be that smart.
Shanny Luft (28:29):
People have nothing but a gun. Yeah. Kelly Baker is
a religious studies PhD andaward winning author. She's
written five books, includingThe zombies are coming, which is
what we've been talking abouttoday. And Carrie Elza, you're a
professor of Film and MediaStudies here at UWSP. It has
been so much fun to talk to youabout zombies. Thank you so much
(28:52):
for the conversation.
Kelly Baker (28:53):
Thank you.
Shanny Luft (28:55):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of no cure for
curiosity. Our intro music waswritten by UWSP music student
Derek Cardin, and our logo is byartist and graphic designer
Ryan, Dreimiller. I'll see youin two weeks with a new episode.
Gretel Stock (29:09):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated, intentional, and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
values of connecting,supporting, collaborating, and
engaging. Discover your purposeand visit UW-Stevens Point at
(29:29):
www.uwsp.edu.
I absolutely love that kind of fantasy of you
(00:03):
yourself alone, rebuilding theworld. And then I think about
what I would do if I was thelast person on Earth. And the
answer is just like sleep. Iwould sleep. I would read some
books and then I would give up.
Shanny Luft (00:29):
Welcome to no cure for curiosity, a podcast by and
for curious people. I am ShannyLuft, Associate Dean of general
education and a professor ofreligion in America at the
University of Wisconsin StevensPoint. With Halloween
approaching, it seems like agood time to talk about zombies.
The first modern zombie moviewas Night of the Living Dead by
George Romero in 1968. Romerohas released a half dozen zombie
(00:53):
movies since then, and nowthere's video games and comic
books and TV shows and moremovies every year. Shaun of the
Dead, 28 Days Later, zombieland, WARM BODIES, World War Z,
Army of the Dead. Those are justa handful of movies from the
last 20 years on television andfilm. There are zombie stories
for every taste, zombiecomedies, zombie procedurals,
(01:14):
zombie Japanese period dramas,and of course, The Walking Dead,
which has been one of the mostpopular television shows since
2010. Why are zombie stories sorelentlessly popular? And so
pardon the pun unkillable. Iinvited two guests, Kelly J.
Baker and Cary Elza to wrestleover this question with me.
Kelly J. Baker resides inFlorida. She is a religious
(01:35):
studies PhD and editor and awardwinning author of articles and
five books including The zombiesare coming. My second guest is
Cary Elza, professor of MediaStudies at the University of
Wisconsin-Stevens Point. Sheteaches courses on
screenwriting, film and mediaanalysis, history and genre, the
conversation began with CaryElza, who reflected on COVID and
(01:55):
how different this pandemicexperience has been from what
film and television has preparedus for.
Cary Elza (02:01):
Thank you so much for inviting me back. Again. This is
so much fun, and I love talkingabout zombies. So I really,
really appreciate being includedhere. Kelly, when I was reading
your book, you know, there's somuch glee associated with
preparing for the zombieapocalypse, right? It's fun,
it's exciting. It's a you know,it's kind of a fresh start. And
(02:24):
the the abolition of all therules. We're not getting like
this is like, this is not, thisis not fun. It's just tiring.
And, you know, walking throughour empty building or empty
office building today and justsad,
Kelly Baker (02:42):
Just Right, right.
Shanny Luft (02:44):
This is not the apocalypse we were promised
sucks. Right?
Kelly Baker (02:48):
Right. It's not.
No, I mean, and I think thatkind of the interesting piece of
it too is that like continuedlike, excitement that you find
with these like zombie preppers.
Or even like students who arethinking through this as a fun
game, right, like, tagged yourfive people that would be on
your zombie apocalypse team, youknow, and Twitter on Facebook,
when you see these sorts ofthings going around that Yeah,
(03:08):
everybody is like, geared up andready to go. And I'm with the
COVID pandemic, it is sad. We'vebeen preparing and preparing and
then you're sort of kind ofperpetually stuck. I mean, this
is one of the things that I keepthinking about what this
pandemic is that, um, that itjust the unending this of it, I
(03:29):
think makes it harder to manage,where at least zombies it's like
society, zombies, something new,right? And with this, it's like,
oh, no deal, this thing,tedious, awful thing, right, day
after day, you know, as I scrollTwitter, and I'm like, let me
look at the numbers of ICU bedsin Florida today and the number
of cases in my county, right?
This is not the future that wewere promised.
Cary Elza (03:52):
No,
Kelly Baker (03:53):
not at all.
Cary Elza (03:54):
It doesn't feel like a future either. It's not we
haven't wiped things away tohave a clean slate. And anyway,
all the same problems are reallyvery much still there. So yeah.
Shanny Luft (04:05):
And that was really I think my first question is why
does the zombie apocalypse seemlike fun? Right? What does it I
mean, this is a genre that'sbeen around for decades.
Clearly, this genre andspecifically this monster has
staying power, in a way I don'tthink is comparable to other
monsters. I feel like I'm a bigfan of horror movies. There are
(04:27):
certain genres of monsters thatcome and go right devil movies
had a moment in the 60s and 70s.
Vampires. You can't get enoughof them in TV and film after
about five, seven years. We'redone with vampires with zombies.
I feel like it's been 20 years.
I've been walking dead has beenon for 10 years. And when the
show came on, I thought zombieswere already passe. Yeah, this
(04:50):
it has sticking power in a waythat I don't know any other
monster movie monster has.
Kelly Baker (04:56):
I mean, I just am always impressed at how
malleable zombies are. Right,like they just can stand in for
anything, right? Like theyabsolutely work for consumerism,
for terrorism, for concernsabout epidemics, environmental
disasters, like they just workin this way for all kinds of
things. And so people can usethem often in combinations of
(05:19):
those ideas to like, they appearin pop culture, and I keep
waiting for them to end. Like Ikeep having these moments where
I'm like, we just can't keepgoing on with it. And I just
knew that when Disney had azombies movie, which I've
watched 30 times with my tween,I was like, oh, like Disney has
zombies like we're clearly done.
Shanny Luft (05:37):
What's the what's the Disney zombie?
Kelly Baker (05:39):
Oh, gosh, it's Disney's zombies. It's a
musical. It's cheerleaders. It'szombie.
Cary Elza (05:44):
Oh, I know of this one. But I haven't seen it yet.
Kelly Baker (05:48):
It has so many ear worms that I'm always like,
parents beware, you're going tobe thinking the song about a
girl on a zombie for like yearsto come. And now 33 My husband
like that, it's you that I waslike, oh, did they can use
zombies like we're done? Right?
Like they reached like
Shanny Luft (06:03):
Peak zombie.
Cary Elza (06:04):
That's the nail in the coffin.
Kelly Baker (06:05):
But it's not the case. Like it's still they still
work and you still find peopleusing them. And you know, I just
watched army of the dead onNetflix. And I thought like,
it's another zombie movie. Whatcan it do? And then I was like,
oh, no, it's really good.
Cary Elza (06:19):
Lots of stuff. Yeah.
Kelly Baker (06:20):
Like, there's lots of stuff going on here. And
I'm super fascinated, and Ican't wait to write about it.
And then I was like, oh, no, I'mnever done with zombies. It's a
perpetual thing. I'm kind oflike the monster is perpetual.
Like it is just kind of strangeto me. And folks try all the
time to get me to predict likethe end. And I'm just like, I
don't know if there is one.
Cary Elza (06:41):
Yeah, I so I teach another class on vampires. Oh,
one of the other reasons that Ireally wanted to talk to you,
Kelly is because I know youteach an apocalypse class. And I
also teach an apocalypse class.
Kelly Baker (06:51):
That's awesome.
Cary Elza (06:51):
Yeah. So it's apocalypse in film and
television. So it's specificallyfrom the media studies angle,
rather than the religiousstudies angle, do I think that
we cover a lot of the sametopics? And so I do zombies in
that class. So I'm with you onthe idea of the metaphor, right.
Zombies can be anything, anykind of mass of people who
aren't thinking for themselves.
And so I'm not going to I'mgoing to say nothing. But I
(07:13):
think that we can think of a lotof great metaphors for today
about masses of people who areletting other people guide their
thoughts. And I don't think thatthat concept, the kind of
autonomous mass without, youknow, freewill is going to go
away anytime soon. Whereas thevampire, with whom I've been in
love, for many years, you know,the vampire is about repressed
(07:37):
sexuality. The Vampire is aboutthe dark side, if humanity but
if you kind of lighten it up toomuch, if you make it sparkle, if
you if you define it in all ofthese different ways that the
vampire has been defanged, losesits own for a while. So I do
believe that the vampire willcome back. But But it needs it
(07:58):
needs to start a new cycle,
Shanny Luft (08:03):
right?
Cary Elza (08:03):
The zombie doesn't have that problem. It's an
infinitely malleable metaphor,like you said,
Shanny Luft (08:08):
zombies might be particularly resonant for the
last 20 years, because of thetwo or three major social life,
they tap into two or threespecific kinds of fears. There's
kind of a global warming,climate change kind of end of
the world fear, right? What dowe happen when, you know, we run
out of certain kinds of food orparts of the globe become
uninhabitable. And then ofcourse, viruses, those two
(08:31):
things seem to be two of themost resonant fears of the
moment. And zombies, I thinkjust seem really perfect for
that.
Cary Elza (08:38):
It also taps into our kind of need to
think about global crises interms of masses of people, if
that makes any sense. You know,we have a hard time getting
thinking things specifically, wecan hear these human interest
stories of, you know, peoplebeing affected by you know,
major environmentalcatastrophes, you know, war, all
of these things. We have all ofthis information coming at us
(09:00):
all the time. And we just, wekind of get numb. And so it's I
think that we start thinking interms of masses of people, too.
And I think that the zombie kindof taps into that. I don't know,
I think it's a very human thingto do. But I think the zombie
expresses that too maybe
Shanny Luft (09:17):
taps into it in a really specific way. Kelly,
recently, I saw Zack Snyder'sarmy of the dead part of the
plot was the government built agiant wall around Las Vegas, and
basically, the zombies juststayed in there. They kind of
created like a zombie cultureinside of that wall. And after I
saw that movie, it suddenlystruck me, there are lots of
zombie stories about walls.
George Romero's 2005. Film Landof the Dead is almost the same
(09:41):
exact plot. It's about thegovernment building a wall to
protect humans from zombies,World War Z, there's a giant
wall around Israel designed toprotect zombies in that show The
Walking Dead, they have to builda wall every time they move.
Kelly Baker (09:55):
Right. Right.
Shanny Luft (09:56):
So I was really interested in your thoughts
about that because the last 20years of zombie story seems to
have prepped Americans forthinking about how to keep out
hordes. And then suddenly, thatbecame central to presidential
politics.
Kelly Baker (10:10):
I didn't decide to take that on. But I think it's
such a good point about the wayover the last 20 years, so much
of American politics inparticular has been about
creating an other and likehaving this idea of an axis of
evil, right, that then becomeshordes of refugees or immigrants
(10:31):
or these sorts of things, right,and like what we can do to
protect ourselves from this andsome kind of way. And so I
definitely think it is somethingwe should pay attention to the
very us versus them nature ofthese zombie stories. And I
think the Walking Dead doesthis, especially in the earlier
seasons remarkably well. So ifyou're a part of this group,
(10:52):
then like we have your back,anybody out fair game in some
sort of way, and will handle youdifferently. And I think that
that's so baked in to the wayRomero imagined zombies, you
know, like, that was like myfavorite quote by him, right?
It's what we're most afraid ofis the neighbors, the people
that we have to deal with here,you know, and so yeah, like,
(11:14):
zombies are scary, but like,really, what we have to worry
about are other people. And Ithink with this wall impulse,
you see that again, and again,we're not necessarily afraid of
the neighbors, but we are afraidof all these other people that
we've marked as different fromus or threatening or that our
politicians have done a reallygood job of as marking as other
(11:35):
threatening dangerous. And soyeah, I think it is kind of
interesting that that becamesuch a central point of the
Trump administration, right,like it's we're just going to
wall ourselves in and, and Ialso think of all the people
that are like building bunkers,were the end of the world to
right, who were like wallingthemselves in and like covering
it, right, and trying to createthese spaces where they don't
have to worry about all theseother people. And they can just
(11:58):
protect the people that theywant that I would also use that
as an extension of what you'retalking about as well.
Cary Elza (12:03):
This is making me think of this kind of
distinction that we see betweenrecent representations of walls,
and the sort of stuff that wesee in like the 1950s and 1960s,
about bunkers, that it's yourresponsibility as a citizen to
create a bunker for yourself andin your family to create a fort
that that nobody can penetrate.
(12:26):
But it's just for you, right,it's your individual
responsibility. And yet we finseeing these walls of
communities, but there issomething different, right,
because we you know, there's thewall and warm bodies, there's
the wall in Zombieland, too. Sothere's these attempts to create
these kinds of utopias, buttheir communities. So the wall
(12:47):
is, is something that a group ofpeople do together now, instead
of it's just yourresponsibility.
Shanny Luft (12:54):
Yet the wall over and over again and these zombie
movies represents savingcivilization, and also
demarcating civilize fromuncivilized and healthy from
diseased Americans are primed tothink walls are how you save a
culture. They're how you keepyour people alive, your
community alive. And So lo andbehold, that idea seems
(13:15):
persuasive.
Cary Elza (13:16):
They're how you maintain the status quo. So
there's, it's how you maintainedvestiges of the old world,
right? An individual alone can'tdo it. It's only a group of like
minded people who can maintainthe old order, for better or
worse,
Kelly Baker (13:32):
You know, I think about the season of The Walking
Dead, where they find thesuburban community behind the
wall, you know, and like,there's a really amazing thing
that always stuck with me islike, you know, they're clean,
they have houses, they have easyaccess to food, you know, one of
the like, suburbanites is like,Oh, I was really deeply worried
that you wouldn't like the food.
You know, one of the survivorsis like, this is what you people
(13:55):
worry about. So that like thedistinction between, you know,
the people that are likefighting for survival, versus
the people that have justcreated this enclave where
they're very safe and verycomfortable, and everyone else
is not. And you find this inRomero movies to the people that
are able to like, who arewealthy right and can kind of
live in an apartment buildingand be safe while everyone else
(14:15):
scavenged is and I think it's soimportant to that it reflects
communities that we inhabit, inour day to day lives to the
people that can afford to livebehind the gate or can afford to
live in the neighborhoods thathave resources versus the people
that don't. And the pandemicright now is really showing that
to us. That was there but now ishyper visible, and I think is
(14:36):
really important as well. One ofthe things that I kept thinking
about during this pandemic is weknew there was a structural
inequity, we knew this kind ofstuff was happening, but like
now because of who has access tothe vaccine, right, who can be
protected who has to go to workevery day and doesn't have the
privilege of staying at home.
(14:57):
You see -- you can really seethis kind of stuff playing out
Cary Elza (15:00):
You're a lot higher up on Maslow -- Maslow's
hierarchy.
Kelly Baker (15:05):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Yeah.
Shanny Luft (15:07):
The other thing about walls in zombie movies is
that, and this is a lesson, Iguess, the public in general has
not learned or a lot of peoplehave not learned is, while some
zombie movies never work, right,the point of the wall is it
always gets torn down, there'salways a crack in zombie movies,
the thesis seems to be it isimpossible to keep this wall
(15:27):
maintained, there's always goingto be a crack, either from
inside or from outside,something's going to go wrong.
And in every one of those, thatthis is why in The Walking Dead
every season, they have to finda new community is their wall
breaks down. And so they have tofind a new civilization
somewhere.
Cary Elza (15:44):
And the problem is never structural. The problem is
people. Like teenagers sneakingout people not paying attention
when they're supposed to belooking out. It's always people,
people are the problem. That's Imean, of course, that's Romero's
big point.
Kelly Baker (15:59):
Well, and it's interesting, me too, because
I've read a number of reallyinteresting zombie short fiction
that kind of thinks through thistoo. And there's a great story
about teenagers rebelling byclimbing the fence, right, like
so the idea is that everybody'ssupposed to be safe. So what are
teenagers going to do? Well,they're going to go out and get
bitten by zombies to rebel, likehaving this kind of perfect, and
(16:19):
a lot of ways like it's a greatshort story. But this idea that,
like you said, it's not so muchthat the problem is those were
keeping out, right? It's likewe've contained everybody and in
the system just can't exist likethis, because people are
contradictory and messy, and doall these things and don't think
good consequences. And that'swhat I think is intriguing about
grasping it to the currentpolitical situation, right. And
(16:40):
this sort of discussion with theTrump administration about a
wall, as if that fixeseverything, like you just brick
it up, and then you don't worryabout anything anymore. And it's
like, oh, no, it has to bemaintained, right? There are
always things that can go wrong.
Like, it's never as easy as youthink, separate people from
people and all these crises andproblems, it just it doesn't
work.
Shanny Luft (17:01):
What does zombie movies teach us about? Who
doesn't survive? Like, what arethe qualities of a person that
basically gets them killed off?
Cary Elza (17:10):
Don't be an asshole.
Kelly Baker (17:11):
Yeah, I think that is definitely one I would tell
students to to not be afeminist. You're this strong
woman figure who like refuses togo back to these traditional
gender norms, you can almostguarantee it, you're just going
like, it doesn't take long. Ithink the genre still is
entrenched in the sort of raciststereotypes of Hollywood too.
(17:32):
And that people of color do notdo well, in these environments.
Cary Elza (17:36):
From the jump, right?
I mean, just right, from thejobs end of night of living
dead, we established that trope.
Kelly Baker (17:42):
Yeah, and and that just very much continues through
and, and I talked about this inthe book, and how the walking
dead in particular, and some ofthe earlier seasons, have these
really gruesome deaths for blackcharacters, right, like some of
the most painful, awful deathsto watch are these black
characters. And how problematicit is that that black pain is
(18:03):
okay to be spectacle, but a lotof the other white characters
get these off screen or likefuneral esque kind of death. And
that that, of course, is still aproblem genre, and is very much
there. But yeah, you see thatkind of thing happen, as Carrie
said, you know, the people thatdeserve it. And I thought this
while I was watching Army of theDead, there was one particular
(18:25):
character that I was like, oh,yeah, you're going down, and I'm
ready for it. vincible enoughwatcher to be like, okay, yeah,
let's see what happens to thisperson. And that that is baked
into it in some sort of way.
Shanny Luft (18:38):
The issue of gender roles in zombie films, I wanted
to ask you both about that.
Cary Elza (18:42):
I was just gonna say it seems to be a method of
survival, not just in zombiefilms, but in a lot of post
apocalyptic films for women totake on these traditional roles.
And I mean, you can think of itas a strategy. I mean, you know,
when you see these ladies doinglaundry and Walking Dead, I
mean, they have found a niche aplace and then you community,
(19:04):
and it might have been the onethat they chose before, but it
becomes a strategy for survival.
So I think that says a lot aboutcling to the status quo and
clinging to community andnostalgia for earlier modes,
gender and--
Shanny Luft (19:19):
right. And that, that goes back to the earlier
question I was asking about thepopularity of of zombies is
because in almost every zombiestory, there is a clear
demarcation of gender roles,right? Men become hunters, and
defenders, they're, you know, ifyou can't shoot a gun or a
crossbow, you're not useful inthis society as a man. And women
(19:42):
have the role of taking care ofchildren of cleaning. You know,
they're, they're the gatherersthat happens over and over again
in zombie stories. And that, Iguess, is part of the appeal for
some people to imagine this kindof fantasy about returning to a
simpler time when there were twogenders and they both had you
know separate spheres?
Kelly Baker (20:02):
Yeah. And it all made sense, right? I mean, so I
think part of the nostalgiapiece of this is it's like, can
we get back to a moment wherewomen were women and men were
men and gender is binary, right?
And men were in charge. Andwomen are support, right? So
there is something about thekind of instantiation of like,
traditional patriarchy that Ithink really appeals to people
(20:22):
about this, that they're like,oh, like, this does make sense.
Like, we missed this. And soyeah, so I think it, it's
interesting about whatcharacters have to be off,
right? In these scenarios,because they don't fit so neatly
into gender divides, or theydon't, or their, or their
sexuality doesn't fit either,right? Because a lot of these
(20:43):
are just adamantly heterosexual
Cary Elza (20:47):
gotta repopulate.
Right?
Kelly Baker (20:49):
You do, right? And so anything else just doesn't
work.
Cary Elza (20:54):
But and this is the the other reason that the zombie
metaphor can just live onforever and ever, never, because
humans are going to eff it up ina zillion different ways. Like,
we're never going to get done.
It's, yeah, it's, it's infinite.
And our foibles are failures.
Kelly Baker (21:11):
And I think that that's the thing that is always
most interesting to me aboutthese apocalyptic narratives in
general is that they get rid ofcomplexity and ambiguity like
that, it just makes things makesense. But there's something
really appealing about lifebeing simplified, and us having
(21:32):
really clear cut places foreverything to go to the
categories are neat, and thatthey're not like all slammed
together and messy, that life isinherently less complicated,
when what you have to figure outis what you're going to eat.
There's a way in which theapocalypse is like the easy
button.
Cary Elza (21:49):
I was just gonna say, in the early days of the
pandemic, I wanted to readnothing but Laura Ingalls
Wilder, I just, I like wentthrough the whole thing. And I
know that those are superproblematic books, believe me, I
know. But it's just somethingabout just worrying about
putting your crops in making itthrough the long winter. That
(22:12):
sort of stuff was deeplyappealing to me at the time,
again, like Maslow's hierarchyof needs, you know, it's just
like knocking us back down tothe bottom, like, one step at a
time. It's okay, one step at atime. Do you have food on the
table? And you know, as we gethigher up in that hierarchy,
life gets so hard, right? Can Iself actualized? Absolutely not.
(22:35):
But you know, I'm supposed to betrying, I guess it but it's
like, the lower we get, the morethings make sense, like a
biological level, you know,
Shanny Luft (22:45):
that's something this conversation is helping me
see is that the zombieapocalypse, the world that comes
after is not a fantasy about afuture. It's a fantasy about a
past, because the zombieapocalypse is really returning
to an agrarian society. It is akind of fantasy world of
farming, where the men arefarmers, and the women are, you
know, raising children is theappeal of that is the
(23:05):
simplicity.
Kelly Baker (23:06):
I always have this idea that zombie apocalypse is
or westerns, there's somethingabout them that just kind of fit
with the genre of the Western,the men are men and they have
done and they can challenge eachother, right? There's all this
space and all these sorts ofthings, right? That you just
live your life out in the wild.
So you know, you're notconcerned with like, the 500
(23:27):
email you've received fromsomething, you know, like,
because like you because there'sno electricity and you know,
this is not something thatyou're dealing with. And so you
can see how that fantasy work.
Cary Elza (23:42):
Kelly, your point about this kind of being the new
frontier and a new opportunityto colonize space. It's so
important, I think, and it's,that's one of the reasons it's
so resonant It's because whenyou have all of this space
that's taken up by other peopleand then you all of a sudden get
the chance to treat those otherpeople as non people right and
(24:06):
we have a new frontier, you havethe new opportunity to homestead
to change your life for thebetter and I think if that shot
if like Rick Grimes riding hishorse down the middle of Italy,
you know down Peachtree Street,Atlanta, and I think about just
how close all of the postapocalyptic movies not just the
(24:27):
zombie movie but most of theseapocalyptic movies Mad Max Fury
Road, Western right are to thatbasic fantasy that we have of
establishing civilization in themidst of wilderness. I think
that is such a good point.
Kelly Baker (24:44):
I'm always fascinated by these post
apocalyptic movies with theruins the ruins of civilization,
you know, I Am Legend. We arenot going to argue about whether
it's a vampire zombie movie,whatever. But like but the you
know, there's the scenes wherelike, Will Smith is standing in
the city. And like deer aregalloping near him. Because
nature has overtaken things. Andit's so different. And so it's
(25:07):
always really fascinating for meto see how all of a sudden we
just lose all these people.
They're like they're just gone.
And the potential andpossibility is there in a way
that it might not have been
Shanny Luft (25:19):
28 Days opens with the scenes of this guy walking
through London, right, and it'scompletely vacant. And those
those images, like the images ofAtlanta, are really remarkable.
He spends a couple of minutesjust walking around the city.
And what I hadn't realized whileI was watching it, but Kelly,
you're helping me think abouthis zombie movies with regard to
(25:42):
cities seem to solve what theysee as the problem of a city.
The problem is all those damnpeople,
Kelly Baker (25:49):
right? Right.
Shanny Luft (25:50):
cities seem better than zombie movies. Because you
can go anywhere and do anythingand you've got like this, you've
got this great world in front ofyou. I'm putting all this in
quotes. Obviously, this is notmy actual opinion. But it does
seem to be like the an argumentthat zombie films make, it
certainly changes people'srelationship with it in a way
that's not nice, all togethernegative. Because those shots of
(26:14):
abandoned buildings are notalways horrific, right? They're
They look like promise, right?
Or possibility or something likethat.
Cary Elza (26:22):
This is my favorite sub genre of the post
apocalyptic movie. So Iabsolutely love that kind of
fantasy of You, yourself alone,rebuilding the world. And then I
think about what I would do if Iwas the last person on Earth.
And the answer is just like,sleep. I would sleep, I would
(26:46):
read some books. And then Iwould give up.
Kelly Baker (26:50):
I think there's something to be said to you
about the way in which folksdon't understand that people
find the apocalypse appealingbecause it's also about meaning
making. So it's saying thatthere's something beyond like,
these individual contradictorylives, that we're involved with,
that there's something biggerthan us, the world is going to
(27:13):
end. So how do we order ourlives? How do we understand the
information that we'reprocessing? I think that's a
really fascinating thing. And Ithink it's even more fascinating
in a moment of extreme climatechange, where we're actually
looking at like, Is this the endof the planet as we know it? And
I think that's a harder thing.
To wrap your head around thanzombies.
Cary Elza (27:34):
Yeah,
Kelly Baker (27:34):
zombies, like we have a plan, we have a solution,
we can make it through oceansbecoming so hot that things die
and our planet can't work theway it's supposed to. That
potential of an end is muchharder for us to like, think
through and hold on to. And I'mnot sure we can actually hold on
to it on a day to day and beable to get out of bed in the
(27:57):
morning.
Cary Elza (27:58):
It's just really nice. When our bad guys have a
face. Yeah, yeah. Tangible. Andwe know who the good guys are.
And the bad guys are and you canshoot the bad guys. That's a lot
easier than dealing with climatechange.
Kelly Baker (28:14):
Yeah, the the solution feel you can hold on to
them.
Shanny Luft (28:18):
Right. And the challenge can be overcome by a
handful of smart individuals whohave almost no tools but a gun.
Cary Elza (28:26):
They don't even have to be that smart.
Shanny Luft (28:29):
People have nothing but a gun. Yeah. Kelly Baker is
a religious studies PhD andaward winning author. She's
written five books, includingThe zombies are coming, which is
what we've been talking abouttoday. And Carrie Elza, you're a
professor of Film and MediaStudies here at UWSP. It has
been so much fun to talk to youabout zombies. Thank you so much
(28:52):
for the conversation.
Kelly Baker (28:53):
Thank you.
Shanny Luft (28:55):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of no cure for
curiosity. Our intro music waswritten by UWSP music student
Derek Cardin, and our logo is byartist and graphic designer
Ryan, Dreimiller. I'll see youin two weeks with a new episode.
Gretel Stock (29:09):
This podcast is brought to you by University
College at University ofWisconsin-Stevens Point. Our
mission is to providecoordinated, intentional, and
inclusive services andopportunities through our core
values of connecting,supporting, collaborating, and
engaging. Discover your purposeand visit UW-Stevens Point at
(29:29):
www.uwsp.edu.
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