June 8, 2025 • 50 mins
A Vince Flynn-esque race to the finish! Chris and mike break down Dark Fall - book #3 in the Shepherd Series by Andrews and Wilson.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:16):
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
And welcome back to this week's No Limits to their podcast.
How you doing today, Mike? I'm good ready to talk about the
final third of this book, and maybe only the final third of
this book. Yeah.
You know, it's kind of we, you know, I was expecting this to
(00:39):
happen after book 2. You know, like, you know, this
is a typical, I want to say typical, like a sophomore slump,
sophomore slump. But, you know, people take
swings and people have misses. And I think, wow, there's
Parsons book I liked, definitelymy least favorite book of the
(00:59):
series. You were telling me to wait till
I get to the third. Wait till I get to the third.
And I will agree with you that the third, last third of this
book is by far the best part of it.
But I don't think it saves. I don't think it does enough to
save it. Really.
OK, I, if you you remember the end of the last pod on Dark
(01:23):
Angel, we're blown away. We're like, yeah, no, no
sophomore slump. Great second book.
Second books are tough. Yet the characters are still
alive. Everything's still vibrant.
We got to the team stuff, the Trinity loop.
It all felt kind of new. This one doesn't do anything
new, and it tries to do new things that don't land.
The spy stuff in Hong Kong, the directed energy weapon, kind of
(01:45):
like this looming threat. It's basically just take Jack
Ryan book or take Scott Harvath book.
There's nukes on the loose. Let's we got to find them and it
just kind of plays into that oldtrope.
And I didn't really need that because this series is about
breathing fresh air into storytelling coming at it from a
different angle. Yet I feel like it just tried to
fit into these archetypes of nuke on the loose.
(02:07):
We need the spies to go catch the catch the bad guys and
interrogate them. And that doesn't work for, I
think, the universe that's been established.
Nuke on the loose, but also likewe're we're trying to do A and
they even like mention it. You know, they're they're
they're not even like trying to hide it, but it's a Mission
Impossible S type stuff with this, you know, Star Wars death
(02:29):
ray type thing that ultimately didn't matter, you know.
It was all a red herring. Yeah, like.
I I will say like starting us inPeru with the attack with this
like shirt that is bone chilling.
But when you introduce somethingthat's so OE like that and then
(02:51):
but you don't have superhero to go up against it.
It's different if that story is in The Avengers or is in, you
know, somewhere where we're we can the the there's equity on
the playing field. Like literally there's nothing
that these operators could do that I could buy that they could
(03:14):
believe. I, I didn't even believe, like,
I, I guess I didn't understand the rules of the game with this
weapon because ultimately it felt like it was, it was so
powerful, like so devastating. The fact that they have to, like
pretty much everyone has to go on lockdown.
They think they can't even travel out.
Then they even go a step furtherto say that, Oh yeah, by the
(03:35):
way, this weapon like doesn't even matter if you have cover
'cause it can take you out in a building.
It, it has the ability to take out the airplane, the pilot or
the computers or all three, likedepending on which wavelength
you're at. Like that just really pissed me
off in the, in the sense that I don't know what it pissed me
(03:56):
off, but like you, just the, theuse of that wasn't fulfilled.
It wasn't necessary. I, I felt like the way this sort
of escalation was going with Victor.
And I will agree, like ultimately, you know, the
culmination of him coming to Saint George's Academy, like
(04:18):
there needed to be that if if that didn't happen in this book,
I was going to be like up even more upset.
Yeah, you know, this this three book arc of having that.
And first of all, I'm super intrigued to see like where we
go next with this here next. It's wide open.
Wait, you could do whatever. Like do we go to Lucifer?
Like do we? Is there another, you know,
(04:40):
right hand man that that that wedon't know about?
You know, like there's there's so many possibilities.
So I'm I'm still intrigued with the series, but yeah, like, I
don't know. I just it it rubbed me the wrong
way from the beginning. And then them trying to do this.
What does he say? Ethan Hutt, Jason Bourne, Stipe
(05:03):
stuff. Yeah, it was cool.
Yeah, it was funny. Like, you know, you throw in
like some of the humor and it's good.
But first of all, Jed's way out of his element seems like
everyone else's way out of theirelement.
And I just not, not the strengthof what the first two books
were. You know, we, we, we weren't in
(05:23):
Victor's mind literally at all, like until the very end.
And I guess, I guess they they explained that away with he's
like working with this whole legion of, you know, it's not
just one demon that's inside of him.
It's like, you know, thousands of of demons that are something
that allows him to mask versus the watchers.
But what that does is it strips away a lot of the things that
(05:45):
we've liked about it, like goinginto his mind and, and, and
seeing that interaction. The Watchers.
The Watchers are completely taken out of the series until
the very end, and until they're almost like, all right now
they're supposed to be the superheroes, which, yeah, it's
cool at the very end. Like that though.
You do you like that I? I do.
They are pissing off. You're sidelining like we are
(06:06):
best characters. They were sidelined, though.
I feel like because Victor embodied all these demons, he
was the one focal point for all this negative energy, these
demon spirits to focus and be able to kind of put a blanket
over the Watchers and blind themwithout them knowing they're
blinded. You know the whole quote about
(06:27):
Legion. We are many.
Well, I love that poetic ending of like, well, it took many in
prayer, the all the watchers in prayer together with Rachel to
expel those demons. A little bit of a divide.
Does it change Victor's nature? Kinda at the 11th hour just for
some exciting drama to have thatmoment.
Yeah, I, I guess that that couldbe seen as a cop out, but it
(06:48):
also explains Victor's powers. I, I feel like you can look back
on everything Victor's done and realize why he's so powerful of
a demon spirit is he's channeling all these, you know,
lesser demons and he's controlling them.
And now he realized I can control them in order to defeat
the Watchers. It got kind of kind of like he
(07:09):
upped his strategy and antics and tactics because Sarah Beth's
been so good, because Corbin's been so good.
He's been a step behind and he hates being a step behind.
He finally leveraged his power, which was, you know, if you're
Legion, you are many, you can control the demons.
He finally found a way around the Watchers.
And I feel like he couldn't do that from the very beginning.
(07:29):
You couldn't have Victor come inand he's trying to take Sarah
Beth and all of a sudden he has this immense power to blind all
the Watchers and all this noeticand telepathic kind of stuff he
can just block out of nowhere. No, he had like build to that.
He was building his powers in response to the Watchers and the
Shepherds building their powers.So that part I'm OK with.
Everything else you said 100% valid. 100% agreed.
(07:53):
I do think the Saint George's scene does enough though.
It it definitely for me does enough to save the book.
It ends the trilogy. I was not having fun in the
first section of this book. I texted you in the middle.
I was a little frustrated at it,but damn did they do enough.
Going back to the frustrations, you're you.
(08:15):
Completely agree. There's two things I think I
would add. It's not just that this weapon
was so Opie and then it didn't matter anymore.
It was like also some weird things like how Nisha all of a
sudden becomes a spy and like I'm kind of intrigued by her
back story, the way Jed's like there's more to her.
She worked for some three letteragency at what did she do
(08:35):
beforehand? While I'm like half intrigued in
that it's so fake how they're writing it, how she's all buddy
buddy with these old spy cohortsand these people and she
operates so well with them and they look up to her and she's
into that. The the shepherds would have
wanted to use that knowledge andrely on it.
And they haven't for as long as we've known them.
So I, I didn't buy her being just fit in to be this super spy
(08:59):
in her past and her back story. I'm intrigued about her back
story, but just not the way it was expressed here.
Didn't fit. You had to lay a little more
groundwork to get that to be believable, you know, and I
understand if, like, all right, you didn't think of that until
this book, then, you know, that's something that you lay
pieces in this book to, you know, build upon in the future
(09:20):
or you put it, you should have thought of that and put it into
your other two books to they they do it very, very subtly,
but definitely not enough to have me buy in the OK.
She is literally, you know, the equivalent of the spy, you know,
a super spy, like even better than any of the spies we've read
before. And oh, another thing, like the
(09:43):
whole Rachel Yarnell, like Jedediah emotional baggage back
story. Gives him the business.
Was just like, to me, I don't know, this is going to might be
rude, but to me it was reminiscent of Mitch Rapp's
(10:05):
wife, Anna. Anna.
Like, yeah, like just this. She's just bitchy, annoying male
character who, you know, wants to be involved, can't like and I
guess in the end they try to salvage it with her.
Like she was the original watcher who Victor tried to, you
know, like they've they've put that in the series, but I don't
(10:28):
know her. She was just so annoying in this
book. It was, I don't know, maybe I'm
the only one, but like to me that was just super off putting.
I'm a little more lenient towards her because she's been
kind of isolated. Like David has his role, Jed has
his role, Sarah Beth has her role.
They're all going out, playing superhero, getting trained,
(10:49):
putting their skills to work. There's a freaking death ray on
the loose, right? Like, get over it.
OK, that's one thing. If it's like a normal OP, this
is like the opt to end all OPS. Like, see that?
I think that's the juxtapositionthat I have a problem with.
You're going to bring this up when?
OK, Literally this thing could incinerate you while you're
(11:10):
sitting in your house drinking your tea.
Oh Boo Hoo, Boo Hoo me. Like I, I used to be a watcher.
Yeah, she's like, I want to go sit outside, let's go drink wine
outside or whatever. It's like, OK, a little
rebellious, you know, I don't know.
I could kind of feel she's been cooped up.
She's on Trinity Loop and and I think Maria plays on that
(11:32):
vulnerability, though she knows that's her in so I could play,
you know, sidekick. I could be friend, you know, I
could say I'm recovering from the bullet wound and I want a
little a friend to hang out with.
And I'm also bored, like you're bored.
Let's let's do things together. Pretty cool when Rachel reads
her mind though and you know thegig is up and Rachel doesn't let
her know the gig is up. And pretty dramatic too.
When Rachel wants to go to the school and Maria is driving her
(11:55):
and Maria every step of the way,you know she's going to be good.
In the end they I think they dropped enough.
Like really early on. Before, yeah, they they did that
really early on, but I think I think it's still worked.
And you still had the moment where Victor thinks she's on his
(12:15):
side and Sarah Beth is like devastated.
And everyone's like, Oh my God, how could you?
I should have known. And then she does the right
thing. So did you like Maria's arc in
the end? Yeah, but ultimately, what does
she do to stop Victor? Nothing like.
She slows him down. Let's Jed catch up.
For a like a second like that, That's my other problem that
(12:36):
like all this stuff is you're. Ruining it for me.
Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, that's what I'm here for.
Like. Usually that's what I'm here
for, but. You know, it's like I see what
they were trying to go for in her arc, and I understand it.
There was plenty of foreshadowing that, you know,
this person who went to the dark, but ultimately, like had
(12:59):
some redeeming qualities that inthe end they were able to, you
know, she, you know. But if that's the case and she
should have been the one to, I thought it would have been more
powerful if she was the one. She killed Victor.
Stop Victor. Well, like her sacrifice was the
reason like that. Ultimately, her sacrifice didn't
(13:19):
really mean anything because youneeded Jed and you needed all
the Watchers to like, be there. I think.
I think it did though. I.
I am reading it wrong but. I think you're, I don't know, I,
I think you're discrediting it alittle bit much because it, it
could think of Harry Potter, right.
Remember I told you it's a HarryPotter SC And I'm, I'm literally
thinking defending Hogwarts, defending St.
(13:41):
George when Michaela, when Josh,when they're all putting their
hands in and Josh takes the spear and they convince Michaela
on the fire escape. You know, don't be afraid.
You know, we got you. I think the only way you defeat
this evil is if every single person gives of themselves,
gives of their gifts, uses theirabilities, sacrifices for one
(14:03):
another. And so if one of those people
didn't do it, Victor, Wayne, Jed's too slow.
Everyone's behind. You know, the timing of it had
to be right because every singleperson played their role.
So I, I don't know, I, I like when that happens.
It's like if Joshua didn't bringthe spear, if Michaela wasn't
(14:23):
there to help them pray at the end, if Corbin didn't pull.
Dude when Corbin pulls the spearout.
That was intense. You think she's absolutely done.
You think like, because Jed thinks like, oh, she's OK as
long as she doesn't pull the spear out and then she does it.
And then she. Needs it, yeah.
You don't even know. It's kind of left unclear if
both Corbin and Johnny, like Ken, Ben's powers heal them.
And then we get hints at the endthat yes, Ben, yeah.
(14:46):
How did you feel about that thatthat that Johnny is saved?
I thought, yeah, I don't know. I don't.
I thought it would have been a good way to write them off.
I agree. Him and Jed had their
reconciliation moment and for him to give up to sacrifice, you
know, say like he checked two things off of his bucket list at
(15:07):
the very end. Like I thought that was a
perfect way to end his story. I agree.
And then to just pull the again the OP card of Ben can can heal
him. I don't know, at the end he like
brought it, made his sacrifice alittle bit less for me.
Yeah, especially after Jed had the talk, I liked how he would
like, follow Jed into battle andJed listen to him in the heart
(15:29):
of battle. He's like, what's your idea?
And I like how they mended everything.
And it's like once they do that.That's what you do in a story
when you have this conflict. He goes out like you mend it and
then the very end that mending is what allows the team to
succeed. To win, but at a cost.
A cost at a cost, right? At a cost.
The stakes. The stakes were so high, yet in
(15:49):
the end, the stakes didn't even matter because everybody's fine.
I understand Corbin. Like, that's a classic move of
of, you know, sort of pulling the wool about her rugs and
then, oh, we think she's dead and then she doesn't.
Like I was fine with Corbin living like she.
Had to survive. I agree.
Two major of a character. But but Johnny, I don't know,
(16:10):
maybe they said something about that, but we are in in the
series time and time again. There's just there's moments in
times where deaths can mean so much more and there's so much
more impactful and it just it adds more nuance to the story.
It adds more meaning to the story.
You know, I think that's why people like, you know, the
(16:33):
stories of George RR Martin where he's, he's not afraid, you
know, or, or these other series where, where, where they're not
afraid to have the ultimate sacrifice.
Because ultimately I think that puts us on edge that, hey,
everyone is kind of expendable. You know, it, it, it kind of
this leads us back to other series where, OK, we know these
(16:55):
guys are, are going to make it through.
And sometimes that, you know, it, it changes the way I read
things, right? You know, like when I, when I
know that they're going to succeed, I, I guess you know,
then ultimately you're like, OK,I'm fine.
Yeah, I agree. Don't tell me though, you didn't
love the Hogwarts scenes. Running through the hallways,
(17:16):
opening the elevator, the secretroom.
All that I, I loved, I, I thought that as soon as we hit
like after, well, I, I did find the, the scene where Jed and Eli
have to land the plane, like super intense and super
riveting. Like, you know, a, a lot of
(17:37):
times. And I feel like some of our
other authors would make it so like Jed and Eli could just land
the plane like no questions asked.
I mean, it, it, it's definitely shows the vulnerability of these
two that, yeah, they're fierce operators, but one who is like
trained to jump out of plane, has done so many jumps, is
(17:58):
actually afraid of flying. And the other one is scared
shitless too land a plane, you know, like he's been a Delta or
a SEAL operator for 20 years or almost 20 years, and yet he
still has fears. I, I, I enjoy that moment.
While, you know, it's a little like the whole like culmination
to that scene is really ridiculous.
The fact that they're able to pull this other plane up to the
(18:20):
plane undetected and manoeuvre that again, Mission Impossible
type stuff. Yeah, you.
Don't need the Ethan Hunt stuff because what was so impressive
in this universe is Ben being able to get inside the pilot's
head and plant the seeds. You already had that.
That is evil. You already had that.
You didn't need other. Yeah, I think you leverage that
(18:44):
kind of stuff. You, you leverage that, you
know, noetic connection he has to this other guy, this
consciousness. And like, that's how we kind of
save this thing and get out of the jam and make that very high
stakes. Like, what if Ben's inside this
guy's head instead of like, repressurizing the cabin so they
can do this. Ethan Hunt, enter the plane.
Oh thing, you just have him inside his head.
(19:05):
Shoot the copilot. Shoot the copilot, tie up the
copilot like you totally use those skills and then the the
main pilot's like he snaps out of it, right?
He almost starts blocking Ben subconsciously and the tension
is like, is he going to block out Ben or is Ben going to get
through? Is Ben's skills going to work?
And then Ben has to call on another watcher and they do it
together. So now this guy has two voices
(19:27):
in his head and it's like that. The final moment saves it.
I didn't need the other ridiculous action of boarding
the plane, although the landing it again kind of saved it
because it was fun. It was intense.
But that was also where I was not bought in because I, I
wasn't in on the Hong Kong app. Hong Kong app, you got to catch
the scientist. I couldn't even track.
(19:48):
Like they know the scientist worked on the weapon.
He didn't know everything, but he knew enough.
Or they had another guy who thengave up this scientist.
He like recognized him from somea drawing that Corbin did or
something. And that was when Nisha had to
be your whole spy thing and theyhad to escape.
And do they the ambulance switch?
They they put these two ambulances in a way that no one
could see that they moved one body out of the other and
(20:10):
switched it with the other guy. That was first of all super
confusing. I didn't understand how it even
happened. Me neither.
I wasn't bought into that. This would be the team doing
that like we went to Peru. I get you're trying to do the
international thing. I I wasn't even sure why the
team had to be on the ground in Peru to be honest with you.
See you, you're doing the international thing.
I didn't need the Hong Kong alsoand then to that to lead into
(20:34):
the New Jersey scene and all of a sudden now it's an attack on
the White House and the president in the Rose Garden for
no reason. And the action is they're going
to use this weapon over DC flying from New Jersey.
I was so not bought into the whole storyline.
I'm just like, go to Saint George's.
What are Sarah Beth and Corbin doing?
And another one, dude, what the hell is David doing?
(20:56):
This book was at the OK. The first book is the watcher
book. You learn all about watchers,
who they are. You know, it opens with a priest
in the bookstore with Corbin. Who are the watchers?
What do they do? The second book, who are the
shepherds? What do they do?
Trinity Loop, this book really needed to lean into the TS LS,
who they are, what they do, why they're necessary.
And there was never that pay off.
(21:18):
Like the only pay off of ATSL was book 2 where David at one
moment gives Jed strength. You know, when he really tells
him, I believed in you Jed, likeyou were our protector.
I know you you blame yourself for what happened to Rachel that
night, but you have always been the protector and we need you to
be the protector and that's who you are in your DNA.
You know, he says reach out and he reads gospel to him.
(21:39):
He's like gospel says reach out and Jed in the middle of a fight
is able to take that advice and win the battle.
David does absolutely nothing here but cower on that plane.
I, I I don't know if he was fully utilized or even if the TS
LS has been utilized. Honestly, I don't even know.
I don't even know at this at this book kind of makes me
(22:01):
question what what the point of them are.
I agree. When Dark Angel did give me
enough, the last book gave me enough to want to say, OK,
they're an integral part of the team.
You had to lean into it and theydidn't.
I do think another opportunity here is David wasn't able to
protect Sarah Beth twice and dark Intercept.
(22:24):
He says on the plane, there's noway in hell I'm not going in and
and not going to be able to protect her this time at Saint
George's. And I get the jet has to tell
him, but you can't do this jump.It's a low altitude, low opening
jump. If it's so dangerous, I wanted
David to say, you know, F all, give me the parachute and jump
(22:45):
the hell out of the plane himself.
And then someone else has to tandem, right?
Jump on to him tandem and he'll be like, you idiot.
You could have got us killed. And he's like, screw you.
And he just starts running and takes off right.
Then the battle of the berm happens, right?
Johnny goes down, Becks has to stay with him.
Eli and Jed battle, you know, blowing things up, and then
they're distracting these demons.
(23:06):
Then Jed finally gets into the building.
But the whole time, David, sincehe's not an operative, was just
like, quietly sneaking in, you know, like he found an extra
passageway. She's like, I wasn't going to
let my daughter go to the schoolwithout seeing the architectural
plans and pouring over it. And he knew some secret passage
or whatever. And David saved us a day.
Like I think there needs to be an opportunity for David to be
(23:28):
his daughter's hero. And yet she's just sitting there
thinking Uncle Jed, Uncle Jed come save me.
And then he does and Uncle Jed turns the corner and fights
Victor. I thought it was a missed
opportunity because we've done that 3-4 times or whatever.
Uncle Jed saved me. I was like, David, let the let
the dad come in and I think thatneeds to happen or it's going to
boil over. I know you did all this work to,
(23:50):
like, supplant that he's needed,You know, if not, then you
should just had Jed be her dad, you know, like in the story,
like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's very interesting. Yeah.
There's, there's just, there's too many holes in this book man
to like. You're right.
Oh another big one. I don't know if I bought into
(24:11):
the Sodom stuff of like the directed energy weapon would
scare humanity into believing God doesn't exist and losing all
hope. It's like, no, it's a freaking
laser space weapon. Like it's not this big religious
analogy of everyone in the world.
Christians are going to stop believing because there's a
Direct Energy weapon. They're just going to paint
their roofs blue and everybody'sfine and Maui doesn't or you
(24:32):
know, the whole paint your roof blue thing.
You know this conspiracy. Theory.
I've heard about that. Like we we don't the Sodom and
Gomorrah stuff. I just, I wasn't jiving with it.
Didn't give me buy into the scariness of the weapon.
The weapon is deadly enough as it is.
I did not buy that. You had to.
You had. You had to force this religious
(24:53):
component into the weapon. I didn't buy any of it.
And I think, all right, if you're going to use his weapon,
lean into the weapon. Lean into the weapon like it
was. It was a red herring.
It was a side. Show you you trialled it in this
super remote village in Peru. You have no reaction from anyone
(25:16):
besides, you know, the people that we're used to like the
president isn't brought in the the news media isn't brought in
like have another attack, have an attack like on a, on a, like
a whole community at a church. Like, well, the Rose garden one
would have been that. I mean, that's that's that's
you're escalating from triallingit at a remote village in Peru
(25:38):
to boom, we're now going to takethat's a like the white.
House. That's a jump.
That's a jump, yeah. I don't know.
And the fact that they they knowthat they saw multiple boxes in
that one fake thing, but yet they're super blindsided by the
fact that we're going to send all of our firepower after this
(25:58):
one and then boom, there's goingto be a bunch.
So now we're spread all across the world and we're going to
we're going to leave Trinity Loop and the watchers like
exposed to me that. Wouldn't you just have three
planes going over DC, each one with a different one of these
weapons as a fail safe as you know some redundancy?
And then what happened to the other planes?
(26:19):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't.
And at that point, once once they're compromised, wouldn't
Victor just say, OK, all right, we can't get Philadelphia.
Let's light up Exton PA because we're are the planes already
that you know, like. I didn't understand the physics.
I didn't understand the physics of the weapon either.
You had to be at a certain altitude, a certain distance.
The size of the weapon has to bemobile.
(26:41):
But I I didn't understand the weapon.
I didn't like the weapon and it didn't make sense to me.
You forced a religious componentto it.
Nothing worked with that. The weapon was the worst part of
this book. Nothing worked.
It worst part of this book, which kind of cheapens the Peru
stuff. Like the Peru opening scene was
kind of interesting when I read about it without knowing what's
(27:03):
to come. Going back to the Peru stuff on
reread, I was like, none of thisactually matters.
And then chasing down the weapon, oh, this doesn't matter
either. And finding a scientist, this
doesn't matter. The planes in New Jersey doesn't
matter, doesn't matter. I was like, can we just get to
the Saint George's stuff? Already.
Yeah, yeah, really. Seriously.
Yeah. The only thing that I like from
like the Peru stuff was when like Jed goes half cocked and
(27:29):
starts chasing that one Dark 1 and they actually are able to
take him. The interrogation with the dark
one like that was intense. That's true.
The exorcism, like essentially an exorcism like all that was
cool. And like I guess we're again
building lore within this system.
So, you know, there's bits and pieces that I like as we go
(27:50):
throughout. But ultimately you're correct.
None of that stuff in the end mattered because Victor was
going to go you. You could have had any other
like scenario to get the shepherds spread throughout the
world. That would have been
exponentially more believable than this death ray.
(28:14):
Yeah. When ultimately your main goal
was to set up this confrontationat Saint George's with Victor.
Like we knew that was coming. If they if they didn't come, we
would have been pissed off. And they execute that amazingly.
But I don't know, to me, it justdoesn't to For you, it does
salvage the book. I guess for me it does salvage
the book like to it's no longer a dud, but it doesn't do enough
(28:38):
for me to like elevate this. It's definitely not elevating
this book over the 1st 2:00. Yeah, no, it's, it's definitely
in 3rd place. And I thought that ending did
enough to make me say it's stilla good book.
Oh, I'll put it this way. The ending is a great and
fitting end to the trilogy, to the Victor arc and the Murray
(29:01):
arc. I like that part.
Bring it back in with the other two books.
I think that the ending is needed and it's it.
It does a good job at at finishing this three book arc,
but the first 2/3 of this book are just like.
Not a great book but it has a good ending to the trilogy so I
(29:23):
like that it's a refresh. I think the Victor Maria stuff
had to end. I think with both of them being
out of the picture is great. And I don't know what you do,
but like we said before, it's wide open.
I do think you have to come backto the plant of I think you
could finally make the series goa little bit more political,
something with the shepherds being outed, their mission told
to the world or an evil one in DC.
(29:45):
So it's not like we just have tomake.
This small reference to the factthat the DNI is like a major
benefactor. So like, wait, is is the DNI an
actual? Is he a shepherd?
Is he part of the organization? Yeah, they do say that.
So it would be cool if like government agencies,
intelligence community is so in bed with the shepherds, but then
politics, legislative, you know,all the other parts of
(30:07):
government are infiltrated by the dark ones.
Particularly we know there's this congressman.
What if he starts, you know, wanted running for president?
What if he becomes speaker? You know, what if he's in in
charge of a very important committee?
I really think you could start going that way.
That plus the TS LS it, I, I think if you don't do something
like that or you don't have the TS, LS play a much more
integral, integral role, you know, my interest could be
(30:31):
waning so. Let's do it, yeah.
Let's do it. All right, action susceptions,
all right. If if we were going basically
solely on the the third part of the book, it's a 10.
It's a 10 out of 10. But for me, I'm going to knock
(30:54):
it down to points. It's an 8 for me.
It's pretty high, OK, I I think though.
The ending is like is elevating that for me.
This is going to be the highest category possibly of.
Yeah, and then the plot, I'm, I'm digging it even more so.
Let me go 8 then with you on action suspense, just because I
think this is where we're going to make up ground because from
here on out, folks, it's not going to be a pretty ride.
(31:17):
Yeah, because for me like the plot is like a six and coupled
with that the buy in is like a like a two.
I, I I I want to go like almost one but that that seems too low
for me. Yeah, 66 and 2 is pretty fair,
but I got to go higher on buy injust because I I I couldn't put
(31:38):
it down at the end. I was really having a good time
with it. The plot though, I could
honestly go even lower than a six.
Yeah, the plot, you can go like a 5 or 64456, it's right now.
No, I'll go, I'll go 5. I think a four could be in play,
but I'll go, I'll go A5. I'm changing my to the five too.
OK, yeah, I I think we were trying trying to be a little too
(32:00):
generous. Here, I think just everything
that we brought up, you know, like the fact that 2/3 of this
book ultimately doesn't matter says something a lot about the
plot, you know? I agree.
I agree. I think bad guys, I, I don't
really know anything new. Maybe, maybe what gives a point
back to Bad guys for me is when Sarah Beth sees Victor as a boy.
(32:25):
Yeah. Did you?
Did you like that? Was that a?
Thing to you, I did I, I think it's I think it's been done
before. I think it's rehashing.
Sure. Yeah, yeah.
But at the same time, it makes sense for this series, I think.
At some point, you know, like. At at some point we had to learn
who Victor really is, and knowing the Christian roots of
the story, we we had to realize Victor is ultimately A
(32:45):
sympathetic character. Victor's human side.
Victor's human side. Not the legion of demons he
commands or the ones who converted him, but I think
seeing the little boy who went through so much trauma, who saw
men of faith, people of faith, put who is it his mother to
death violently. Yeah, exactly.
(33:06):
Kind of like Salem witch witch trial stuff.
I think that was unfortunately the only new thing we learned
about the villains and Victor. But it was a good enough thing
to learn about the villains thatI can go, oh, I think a force
too kind. Yeah.
But because of that it gives it half a point.
So 3 1/2 I would go 3 but but but getting in Victor's head I
(33:29):
think earns back that half a point.
Yeah, I'll see you with that. I, I think, you know, we already
gave Victor the high praise in the 1st 2 novels and you have to
do something in order to get that four or five again, you
have to level up. And I, I think that you're
right. The only thing we get is like a
a very glimpse peek at his back story.
(33:55):
Yeah, 3 1/2. Well done by McLeod Andrews
though to do a Victor voice as atotally different as just a boy
talking to Sarah Beth and. I don't know what he sometimes
he's using, like I don't know ifit's a synthesizer or something,
but man, the audio book on this thing is awesome.
So good. Cloud Andrews does a great job.
It's so good. That could be the free space.
Every single book, you know, theaudio books are phenomenal.
(34:19):
Good guys Nisha brings. It's so sad because Nisha last
book brought it up like Nisha would be a six out of five last
book. This book I don't I want to know
her back story. I believe she maybe was with
NSACIA whoever, but I just don'tbelieve how that is told to me.
It's too like didactic. It's like telling you.
(34:39):
It just wants you to believe that's just telling you it and
it's not authentic. The conversation she's having
during that whole I'm going to take over as this like last
book, she was the operator. Jed wanted her at the Vatican on
his. I know, like he said, all of a
sudden he doesn't trust her as the operator.
She's always like, you're betteron the comms.
Yeah, he's like you're you're better sifting through Intel.
(35:00):
No, I make that back, Sir. Make that someone random.
She's not the one who's better at sifting through Intel.
And like she's sitting in an office.
Direct I I felt like they were they were pinning her up to be
the best of both and this book, they tried to make her take a
step back on the whole, on the whole operator side.
I didn't. I didn't believe it.
Me neither. So that Dings at a point, Josh
(35:21):
and Michaela and the team, the team of watchers gives me a
point at The Avengers assemble moment.
So I think I end up at a 3 1/2 again.
OK, I was going to go for it, OK.
Mainly because I thought I love the Johnny piece.
Like putting aside the whole yeah, yeah, you should have
(35:41):
killed him. What?
I mean, Yeah, yeah, All right. Whatever.
But I do think they played that because they've been building
that up. Right.
Yeah. For two books now.
Yeah. And finally they had that
confrontation. And I thought that that, that
that played very well. I I also think like that the
relationship between Eli and Jedwas it grew strengthened and,
(36:06):
and deepened in this novel, you know, and it was a you learn a
little bit more about like, oh, I guess like Eli's also been
there a long time and he's a super like, why was he passed
over? And, but, but he, unlike Johnny,
just clicked. And to me he was almost like the
my, you know, spoiler word. He was my, my winner of the
(36:28):
book, like a little bit like just the, the stuff that he does
and the vulnerability he shows at the very end.
He's he's with there with Jed. He I thought he was dead.
Like when, when Victor like picks him up and throws him and
they say his like neck is, is like, you know, limp.
And I'm like, holy shit, did youyou not only did you kill, I
(36:49):
thought like all these guys were.
I thought Cordman was dead. I thought Eli was dead.
I thought Maria. Maria, obviously was dead.
Snaps Maria's neck and she just goes down the wall.
Yeah. Slides down the wall.
Yeah, I thought all these. I thought the the other little
kid Josh was dead. Like yo, he.
Tosses Michaela Sarah Beth is running away and he tosses her
and she's like did he just toss a girl a.
Body at me, Yeah. Stop me, Yeah, yeah.
(37:13):
So I'm I'm gonna go for, I'm gonna go for a good guess.
OK, yeah, I think I'll stay 3 1/2.
But you're right, Johnny's Johnny's arc there to come
around and then Eli becoming a main player because I wondered
about Eli and it's just mission before self.
You know, Johnny had like that ego to be like, it's not fair.
Eli deserves this is not fair. And Eli was just able to rise
(37:34):
above that. Yeah, here's a great quote.
Like like if, if today is the day that I'm even maker, I'm
ready. I serve him like you know, he
when they're about to take that lilo jump.
So. Yeah, no, he's, he's like the
definition of like service, likeservant leader setting.
(38:00):
It's a tough one. It's the same kind of story.
We've been saying I love St. George's.
I felt like it was Hogwarts. I felt that we got the most,
like, new information about Saint George's, like learning
about the sanctuary and the White Room and, you know, these
various dormitories and in the talk and like, all that kind of
stuff. Like I, I could visualize all
(38:20):
that in my head. And yeah, like you're saying
like Hogwarts vibes nonstop. That's a 5 out of five.
It's just I hated New Jersey. I hated Hong.
Kong. Everything else.
Peru was. Didn't really like me.
We could have been in Dubai during the Hong Kong scene, like
it, it didn't could have been anywhere.
A little, a little bit of like work to try to like set us up
(38:43):
with the whole the harbour and alittle bit the New Jersey stuff
was why are you in Atlantic City?
It didn't make any sense to me. Why do they have to go to
Atlantic City? Yeah.
It didn't make any sense. Peru.
Yeah. OK.
Hong Kong, New Jersey, or. I think a three.
(39:05):
Peru is like a three and Saint George is a 5.
So yeah, let's go. Through the.
Middle. Yeah, I think I'm what?
I'm half a point. No, yeah, I'm half a point up
right now from my buy in. Yeah.
Boost, you know, free space. I got one for you.
Easily could be Johnny or Eli. Mine's Eli for sure.
(39:27):
I'm going to add Sanderson. Oh, that's a good one.
The guard Sanderson was great. And when Jed?
First out of the birds like yeah, yeah.
He's like this guy might be ableto be a shepherd like a like a
full on like move up, send him out in the field down range
Shepherd, not just a a gate guard, but again, servant
leadership. He did his job.
He he did it very well. And when the attack was
(39:50):
happening, he gave it his all. He gave it everything.
I paid the price, the ultimate price, but but he gave it
everything. And it's it's heartbreaking at
the end, after what Jed's been through, he's like, and also,
you know, I give my gratitude tothat gay guard.
I can't even remember his name right now.
I'm so tired and he just passes out.
So Sanderson like gets his moment of recognition, but
(40:11):
everything just went so to shit that he can't even think of his
name. But I think that's just real.
I think that's just showing the grittiness, the dark nature of
this. But Sanderson was awesome.
Great character, a good one. That's a good one.
That in the sphere, Josh grabbing the spear.
For me, I think it's like an EliJohnny combo, like having those
two other and as well as Yoon, Ithink he was the best part of
(40:36):
the whole Hong Kong stuff. Like I thought that his
character was, was pretty well set, you know, like I, I, I was
fully bought in that he would have been the one doing that
kind of stuff. Becks too, you know, Becks was
good. I felt like we fleshed out her a
little bit more like this medic.She's, you know, but she can
ride or die with everyone like the team, the team is solid and
(40:58):
just getting a little bit more of that was was great.
So. Yeah, I think the way you
brought up all those two, I forgot about you.
And he's he's even a bit of Comic Relief on the Hong Kong OP
keep saying that. So I think I'm going to go 4.
I'm going to I'm going to get back that half a point on good
guys, then I'm going back to good guys with with a four.
Yeah, Becks too. I forgot she was great cover
(41:20):
time. It's actually a good one.
It's probably the best out of the three.
I'm I'm going to have to say that this fireball all right, so
first of all, why is it helicopters, though?
Well, that lay low jump. They're not in helicopters,
(41:42):
they're in an airplane, right? Oh, that's true.
God damn it. They had airplanes last time.
I know when they were in helicopters.
Now they have helicopters when they were in airplanes.
Oh shoot, you're right. Wow, you just keep bringing me
down tonight, my man. I came into this thinking like.
Having this. Low 40s.
Castle like fortress, obviously you have something that looks
(42:04):
like some sort of like on the one thing that's that's some
sort of vehicle right that they're in front of so that that
could be the APC. You know two kitted up operators
like I fully get like that is believable and the same thing
with with the other one like this is obviously St.
George's you know, you have this, although I don't know why
it should be sunny. It should be more like like
(42:25):
this, because I I love the fact this giant storm is coming and
like to me, I was like, is is Victor bringing the storm or is
it just, you know, coincidence, right like that you didn't
really know like what what was happening, but.
Yeah, that was cool. That adds to setting a little
bit. That was that was a cool fact.
What do we give on the covers? Alaska.
(42:48):
I think threes both times, No 3 and 3 1/2 maybe this one almost
builds on the good parts of DarkAngel and makes it even a little
better, but we. Gave threes on both.
Oh. We did all right then.
This one's a 3 1/2. This is a 3 1/2.
It's not quite a four. I was going to say, if we gave
one of them a 3 1/2, we'd have to give this one A4.
And a four to go up, yeah. But it it does something a
(43:11):
little bit more for me. But man, bringing up those
helicopters when they're in airplanes, that's tough.
Just swap the at. Least they have St.
George's. At least they have that.
Yeah, yeah, yes, it's true. If they didn't have St.
George's, I'd go much lower. It's Battle of the Berms.
It really just looks like it. Tough one tonight, Chris.
(43:31):
A little bit of a tough one. But I'll bet.
All right, So what? I got a 34.
What do you have, Mike? Then I should be one point
higher. They're 35.
Yeah, 35 OK, tough pill to swallow.
It's about 10 points lower. I gave Dark Angel A-44, you gave
(43:52):
it a 45. I gave Dark Intercept a 45.5 and
you gave Dark Angel Dark Intercept to 46.
Yeah. Big fall, but I kind of figured
this was going to be. I knew it was going to crack 30.
(44:13):
Yeah. Wasn't quite sure if it was
going to crack 40 but you know. Yeah.
Kind of makes sense. It's like right there.
Not. Completely trash but.
No, not, no, not by any means. But the numbers do indicate how
I remember feeling on my first reads of all of these.
I remember being so high on DarkIntercept.
I remember saying, oh, the second book was also really
(44:36):
good, Like I like that. And then I remember the third
book was like, oh, what are we doing here?
I'm not sure about this. So I do remember and that's why
when we did Dark Intercept, I was like, Chris, we'll see how
the next few go. And I was a little hesitant
because I remember a bit of a drop off.
It's a little bit more of a dropoff than I recall, but but at
(44:58):
the same time, Dark Angel was better than I recalled.
I Dark Angel on reread I liked even more than I remembered.
Dark Fall on reread I liked a little less.
Than I a little less OK. Except for the ending of course,
as I. Said now we're but you're not
reading it with like a different, you know, the critics
eye in the sense. No, it's true.
It's true. Covering it for the bonds.
(45:19):
I stand by though everything in the Saint Georges attack was one
of the most fun rides I've had in a while.
Reading an action scene and whenyou talk about character arcs,
if you're trying to do a trilogyand wrap it up, if there were
loose ends of characters who youknew had to meet and you were
anticipating the meeting. Maria who who, who's good, who's
(45:41):
bad? We're going to find out in the
final battle. It better be something epic.
The backdrop, like you said withthe lightning better be epic.
The setting at the school, you know, wherever it is, might
needs to be epic. The the villain has to has to be
a big bad. You can't have a villain who
just pussies out and loses, you know, very quickly.
It's got to be a big bad. And I think every one of those
(46:01):
components of what makes a race of Vince Flynn style race to the
finish, I think all of those components were here in the
final few chapters of this book.So I was very satisfied.
This is like, it reminded me of like finishing a Memorial Day or
the ending to an American assassin or I just had that
thrill of, you know, when a bookpeaks, there's nothing better
(46:25):
when you're at the point of a book, even if you haven't been
into the book, but but you're just hanging along, you're there
for the ride. And you're at that point of
like, is this book just becoming, you know, a burden for
me to have to finish just because?
Because I want to. And and it gets you, though,
when it grips you in that momentand doesn't let you put it down,
there's nothing like it. Like that is just such a fun
ride. It's a good feeling.
(46:45):
They accomplished that. They really did.
Yeah. No, it's good.
All right, so next time we'll becovering Dark Rising.
Should we do it? Should we just knock it out?
Let's do it, man. I've already started on Audible
so we're good to go. Let's go, let's go.
All right, I'm intrigued. I think, like, you know, the
ending and the culmination of the trilogy did definitely did
(47:09):
enough for me to want to read the next one because I'm I need
to know, know where we go next. Yeah, completely.
All right, Well. Before we get out of here, we
need to thank our patrons, our deputy director Sherry F, our
special operator, Jason C, our special agent Ben, Darrell,
Kevin, George, Matt, Dawn, Peggy, Chris and Mark.
(47:31):
Please subscribe to No Limits the Thriller Podcast.
You can find us.online@thrillerpod.com or on
Twitter, Instagram at Thriller podcast.
And as always, just let Eli Eli.What should have done just like
(47:51):
Corbin be Corbin could have donejust like Corbin be Corbin.
Just let Sarah Beth be Sarah Beth.
What did you I guess we're we'rejust recording.
What did you think of Sarah Bethin the end when you really talk
(48:11):
about her? You know what?
She does shine in that final sequence.
She really does. To me, I thought she was a
little annoying like her mom in the first two books, but this
one, you know, I thought, you'reright.
She she does shine and ultimately she is the reason
that, you know, they're able to to conquer and defeat Victor.
(48:32):
And so I think she she earned the right to be like a key
figure in the story, so. I think she did earn it.
I think she grew into the role and if it weren't for an age
gap, this is finally the point where I'm like, she could, she
could be a Corbin. She could pick up the mantle
where I don't know if I would have said that last book.
I don't think she was ready. This one, now that she's
(48:52):
projecting, she's able to project while running, which was
in That was an insane sequence, She.
Still has this kid like naivete of like, whoa, that's cool, I
didn't know I could do that. But you know, Corbin, I think
can show her. Wonder what's next for Corbin.
I know what's next for Sarah Beth.
She has to be the lead watcher. She has to teach the younger
(49:13):
kids. She has to perfect her powers.
She probably even has to go beyond a Pastor D You know, she
has to maybe she has to find like a Yoda.
You know, I feel like she has tofind a Yoda and it it's possibly
Ben Morvent. I don't.
Know, I was just about to say that maybe it's Ben.
Maybe it's Ben, or Ben maybe hasto realize she's so powerful
that he has to help her find a Yoda.
(49:35):
You know, I think it'd be reallycool to do a Dagobah type scene
for her. She's either lost, she's gone,
or she willingly goes on a mission off grid and the fruits
that that mission will bear, Like Luke Skywalker doesn't get
it at first. He messes up, he has to go save
his friends. But ultimately he was destined
(49:55):
and designed to make those choices.
I think you could very much do aSarah Beth Skywalker attempt.
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
And welcome back to this week's No Limits to their podcast.
How you doing today, Mike? I'm good ready to talk about the
final third of this book, and maybe only the final third of
this book. Yeah.
You know, it's kind of we, you know, I was expecting this to
(00:39):
happen after book 2. You know, like, you know, this
is a typical, I want to say typical, like a sophomore slump,
sophomore slump. But, you know, people take
swings and people have misses. And I think, wow, there's
Parsons book I liked, definitelymy least favorite book of the
(00:59):
series. You were telling me to wait till
I get to the third. Wait till I get to the third.
And I will agree with you that the third, last third of this
book is by far the best part of it.
But I don't think it saves. I don't think it does enough to
save it. Really.
OK, I, if you you remember the end of the last pod on Dark
(01:23):
Angel, we're blown away. We're like, yeah, no, no
sophomore slump. Great second book.
Second books are tough. Yet the characters are still
alive. Everything's still vibrant.
We got to the team stuff, the Trinity loop.
It all felt kind of new. This one doesn't do anything
new, and it tries to do new things that don't land.
The spy stuff in Hong Kong, the directed energy weapon, kind of
(01:45):
like this looming threat. It's basically just take Jack
Ryan book or take Scott Harvath book.
There's nukes on the loose. Let's we got to find them and it
just kind of plays into that oldtrope.
And I didn't really need that because this series is about
breathing fresh air into storytelling coming at it from a
different angle. Yet I feel like it just tried to
fit into these archetypes of nuke on the loose.
(02:07):
We need the spies to go catch the catch the bad guys and
interrogate them. And that doesn't work for, I
think, the universe that's been established.
Nuke on the loose, but also likewe're we're trying to do A and
they even like mention it. You know, they're they're
they're not even like trying to hide it, but it's a Mission
Impossible S type stuff with this, you know, Star Wars death
(02:29):
ray type thing that ultimately didn't matter, you know.
It was all a red herring. Yeah, like.
I I will say like starting us inPeru with the attack with this
like shirt that is bone chilling.
But when you introduce somethingthat's so OE like that and then
(02:51):
but you don't have superhero to go up against it.
It's different if that story is in The Avengers or is in, you
know, somewhere where we're we can the the there's equity on
the playing field. Like literally there's nothing
that these operators could do that I could buy that they could
(03:14):
believe. I, I didn't even believe, like,
I, I guess I didn't understand the rules of the game with this
weapon because ultimately it felt like it was, it was so
powerful, like so devastating. The fact that they have to, like
pretty much everyone has to go on lockdown.
They think they can't even travel out.
Then they even go a step furtherto say that, Oh yeah, by the
(03:35):
way, this weapon like doesn't even matter if you have cover
'cause it can take you out in a building.
It, it has the ability to take out the airplane, the pilot or
the computers or all three, likedepending on which wavelength
you're at. Like that just really pissed me
off in the, in the sense that I don't know what it pissed me
(03:56):
off, but like you, just the, theuse of that wasn't fulfilled.
It wasn't necessary. I, I felt like the way this sort
of escalation was going with Victor.
And I will agree, like ultimately, you know, the
culmination of him coming to Saint George's Academy, like
(04:18):
there needed to be that if if that didn't happen in this book,
I was going to be like up even more upset.
Yeah, you know, this this three book arc of having that.
And first of all, I'm super intrigued to see like where we
go next with this here next. It's wide open.
Wait, you could do whatever. Like do we go to Lucifer?
Like do we? Is there another, you know,
(04:40):
right hand man that that that wedon't know about?
You know, like there's there's so many possibilities.
So I'm I'm still intrigued with the series, but yeah, like, I
don't know. I just it it rubbed me the wrong
way from the beginning. And then them trying to do this.
What does he say? Ethan Hutt, Jason Bourne, Stipe
(05:03):
stuff. Yeah, it was cool.
Yeah, it was funny. Like, you know, you throw in
like some of the humor and it's good.
But first of all, Jed's way out of his element seems like
everyone else's way out of theirelement.
And I just not, not the strengthof what the first two books
were. You know, we, we, we weren't in
(05:23):
Victor's mind literally at all, like until the very end.
And I guess, I guess they they explained that away with he's
like working with this whole legion of, you know, it's not
just one demon that's inside of him.
It's like, you know, thousands of of demons that are something
that allows him to mask versus the watchers.
But what that does is it strips away a lot of the things that
(05:45):
we've liked about it, like goinginto his mind and, and, and
seeing that interaction. The Watchers.
The Watchers are completely taken out of the series until
the very end, and until they're almost like, all right now
they're supposed to be the superheroes, which, yeah, it's
cool at the very end. Like that though.
You do you like that I? I do.
They are pissing off. You're sidelining like we are
(06:06):
best characters. They were sidelined, though.
I feel like because Victor embodied all these demons, he
was the one focal point for all this negative energy, these
demon spirits to focus and be able to kind of put a blanket
over the Watchers and blind themwithout them knowing they're
blinded. You know the whole quote about
(06:27):
Legion. We are many.
Well, I love that poetic ending of like, well, it took many in
prayer, the all the watchers in prayer together with Rachel to
expel those demons. A little bit of a divide.
Does it change Victor's nature? Kinda at the 11th hour just for
some exciting drama to have thatmoment.
Yeah, I, I guess that that couldbe seen as a cop out, but it
(06:48):
also explains Victor's powers. I, I feel like you can look back
on everything Victor's done and realize why he's so powerful of
a demon spirit is he's channeling all these, you know,
lesser demons and he's controlling them.
And now he realized I can control them in order to defeat
the Watchers. It got kind of kind of like he
(07:09):
upped his strategy and antics and tactics because Sarah Beth's
been so good, because Corbin's been so good.
He's been a step behind and he hates being a step behind.
He finally leveraged his power, which was, you know, if you're
Legion, you are many, you can control the demons.
He finally found a way around the Watchers.
And I feel like he couldn't do that from the very beginning.
(07:29):
You couldn't have Victor come inand he's trying to take Sarah
Beth and all of a sudden he has this immense power to blind all
the Watchers and all this noeticand telepathic kind of stuff he
can just block out of nowhere. No, he had like build to that.
He was building his powers in response to the Watchers and the
Shepherds building their powers.So that part I'm OK with.
Everything else you said 100% valid. 100% agreed.
(07:53):
I do think the Saint George's scene does enough though.
It it definitely for me does enough to save the book.
It ends the trilogy. I was not having fun in the
first section of this book. I texted you in the middle.
I was a little frustrated at it,but damn did they do enough.
Going back to the frustrations, you're you.
(08:15):
Completely agree. There's two things I think I
would add. It's not just that this weapon
was so Opie and then it didn't matter anymore.
It was like also some weird things like how Nisha all of a
sudden becomes a spy and like I'm kind of intrigued by her
back story, the way Jed's like there's more to her.
She worked for some three letteragency at what did she do
(08:35):
beforehand? While I'm like half intrigued in
that it's so fake how they're writing it, how she's all buddy
buddy with these old spy cohortsand these people and she
operates so well with them and they look up to her and she's
into that. The the shepherds would have
wanted to use that knowledge andrely on it.
And they haven't for as long as we've known them.
So I, I didn't buy her being just fit in to be this super spy
(08:59):
in her past and her back story. I'm intrigued about her back
story, but just not the way it was expressed here.
Didn't fit. You had to lay a little more
groundwork to get that to be believable, you know, and I
understand if, like, all right, you didn't think of that until
this book, then, you know, that's something that you lay
pieces in this book to, you know, build upon in the future
(09:20):
or you put it, you should have thought of that and put it into
your other two books to they they do it very, very subtly,
but definitely not enough to have me buy in the OK.
She is literally, you know, the equivalent of the spy, you know,
a super spy, like even better than any of the spies we've read
before. And oh, another thing, like the
(09:43):
whole Rachel Yarnell, like Jedediah emotional baggage back
story. Gives him the business.
Was just like, to me, I don't know, this is going to might be
rude, but to me it was reminiscent of Mitch Rapp's
(10:05):
wife, Anna. Anna.
Like, yeah, like just this. She's just bitchy, annoying male
character who, you know, wants to be involved, can't like and I
guess in the end they try to salvage it with her.
Like she was the original watcher who Victor tried to, you
know, like they've they've put that in the series, but I don't
(10:28):
know her. She was just so annoying in this
book. It was, I don't know, maybe I'm
the only one, but like to me that was just super off putting.
I'm a little more lenient towards her because she's been
kind of isolated. Like David has his role, Jed has
his role, Sarah Beth has her role.
They're all going out, playing superhero, getting trained,
(10:49):
putting their skills to work. There's a freaking death ray on
the loose, right? Like, get over it.
OK, that's one thing. If it's like a normal OP, this
is like the opt to end all OPS. Like, see that?
I think that's the juxtapositionthat I have a problem with.
You're going to bring this up when?
OK, Literally this thing could incinerate you while you're
(11:10):
sitting in your house drinking your tea.
Oh Boo Hoo, Boo Hoo me. Like I, I used to be a watcher.
Yeah, she's like, I want to go sit outside, let's go drink wine
outside or whatever. It's like, OK, a little
rebellious, you know, I don't know.
I could kind of feel she's been cooped up.
She's on Trinity Loop and and I think Maria plays on that
(11:32):
vulnerability, though she knows that's her in so I could play,
you know, sidekick. I could be friend, you know, I
could say I'm recovering from the bullet wound and I want a
little a friend to hang out with.
And I'm also bored, like you're bored.
Let's let's do things together. Pretty cool when Rachel reads
her mind though and you know thegig is up and Rachel doesn't let
her know the gig is up. And pretty dramatic too.
When Rachel wants to go to the school and Maria is driving her
(11:55):
and Maria every step of the way,you know she's going to be good.
In the end they I think they dropped enough.
Like really early on. Before, yeah, they they did that
really early on, but I think I think it's still worked.
And you still had the moment where Victor thinks she's on his
(12:15):
side and Sarah Beth is like devastated.
And everyone's like, Oh my God, how could you?
I should have known. And then she does the right
thing. So did you like Maria's arc in
the end? Yeah, but ultimately, what does
she do to stop Victor? Nothing like.
She slows him down. Let's Jed catch up.
For a like a second like that, That's my other problem that
(12:36):
like all this stuff is you're. Ruining it for me.
Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, that's what I'm here for.
Like. Usually that's what I'm here
for, but. You know, it's like I see what
they were trying to go for in her arc, and I understand it.
There was plenty of foreshadowing that, you know,
this person who went to the dark, but ultimately, like had
(12:59):
some redeeming qualities that inthe end they were able to, you
know, she, you know. But if that's the case and she
should have been the one to, I thought it would have been more
powerful if she was the one. She killed Victor.
Stop Victor. Well, like her sacrifice was the
reason like that. Ultimately, her sacrifice didn't
(13:19):
really mean anything because youneeded Jed and you needed all
the Watchers to like, be there. I think.
I think it did though. I.
I am reading it wrong but. I think you're, I don't know, I,
I think you're discrediting it alittle bit much because it, it
could think of Harry Potter, right.
Remember I told you it's a HarryPotter SC And I'm, I'm literally
thinking defending Hogwarts, defending St.
(13:41):
George when Michaela, when Josh,when they're all putting their
hands in and Josh takes the spear and they convince Michaela
on the fire escape. You know, don't be afraid.
You know, we got you. I think the only way you defeat
this evil is if every single person gives of themselves,
gives of their gifts, uses theirabilities, sacrifices for one
(14:03):
another. And so if one of those people
didn't do it, Victor, Wayne, Jed's too slow.
Everyone's behind. You know, the timing of it had
to be right because every singleperson played their role.
So I, I don't know, I, I like when that happens.
It's like if Joshua didn't bringthe spear, if Michaela wasn't
(14:23):
there to help them pray at the end, if Corbin didn't pull.
Dude when Corbin pulls the spearout.
That was intense. You think she's absolutely done.
You think like, because Jed thinks like, oh, she's OK as
long as she doesn't pull the spear out and then she does it.
And then she. Needs it, yeah.
You don't even know. It's kind of left unclear if
both Corbin and Johnny, like Ken, Ben's powers heal them.
And then we get hints at the endthat yes, Ben, yeah.
(14:46):
How did you feel about that thatthat that Johnny is saved?
I thought, yeah, I don't know. I don't.
I thought it would have been a good way to write them off.
I agree. Him and Jed had their
reconciliation moment and for him to give up to sacrifice, you
know, say like he checked two things off of his bucket list at
(15:07):
the very end. Like I thought that was a
perfect way to end his story. I agree.
And then to just pull the again the OP card of Ben can can heal
him. I don't know, at the end he like
brought it, made his sacrifice alittle bit less for me.
Yeah, especially after Jed had the talk, I liked how he would
like, follow Jed into battle andJed listen to him in the heart
(15:29):
of battle. He's like, what's your idea?
And I like how they mended everything.
And it's like once they do that.That's what you do in a story
when you have this conflict. He goes out like you mend it and
then the very end that mending is what allows the team to
succeed. To win, but at a cost.
A cost at a cost, right? At a cost.
The stakes. The stakes were so high, yet in
(15:49):
the end, the stakes didn't even matter because everybody's fine.
I understand Corbin. Like, that's a classic move of
of, you know, sort of pulling the wool about her rugs and
then, oh, we think she's dead and then she doesn't.
Like I was fine with Corbin living like she.
Had to survive. I agree.
Two major of a character. But but Johnny, I don't know,
(16:10):
maybe they said something about that, but we are in in the
series time and time again. There's just there's moments in
times where deaths can mean so much more and there's so much
more impactful and it just it adds more nuance to the story.
It adds more meaning to the story.
You know, I think that's why people like, you know, the
(16:33):
stories of George RR Martin where he's, he's not afraid, you
know, or, or these other series where, where, where they're not
afraid to have the ultimate sacrifice.
Because ultimately I think that puts us on edge that, hey,
everyone is kind of expendable. You know, it, it, it kind of
this leads us back to other series where, OK, we know these
(16:55):
guys are, are going to make it through.
And sometimes that, you know, it, it changes the way I read
things, right? You know, like when I, when I
know that they're going to succeed, I, I guess you know,
then ultimately you're like, OK,I'm fine.
Yeah, I agree. Don't tell me though, you didn't
love the Hogwarts scenes. Running through the hallways,
(17:16):
opening the elevator, the secretroom.
All that I, I loved, I, I thought that as soon as we hit
like after, well, I, I did find the, the scene where Jed and Eli
have to land the plane, like super intense and super
riveting. Like, you know, a, a lot of
(17:37):
times. And I feel like some of our
other authors would make it so like Jed and Eli could just land
the plane like no questions asked.
I mean, it, it, it's definitely shows the vulnerability of these
two that, yeah, they're fierce operators, but one who is like
trained to jump out of plane, has done so many jumps, is
(17:58):
actually afraid of flying. And the other one is scared
shitless too land a plane, you know, like he's been a Delta or
a SEAL operator for 20 years or almost 20 years, and yet he
still has fears. I, I, I enjoy that moment.
While, you know, it's a little like the whole like culmination
to that scene is really ridiculous.
The fact that they're able to pull this other plane up to the
(18:20):
plane undetected and manoeuvre that again, Mission Impossible
type stuff. Yeah, you.
Don't need the Ethan Hunt stuff because what was so impressive
in this universe is Ben being able to get inside the pilot's
head and plant the seeds. You already had that.
That is evil. You already had that.
You didn't need other. Yeah, I think you leverage that
(18:44):
kind of stuff. You, you leverage that, you
know, noetic connection he has to this other guy, this
consciousness. And like, that's how we kind of
save this thing and get out of the jam and make that very high
stakes. Like, what if Ben's inside this
guy's head instead of like, repressurizing the cabin so they
can do this. Ethan Hunt, enter the plane.
Oh thing, you just have him inside his head.
(19:05):
Shoot the copilot. Shoot the copilot, tie up the
copilot like you totally use those skills and then the the
main pilot's like he snaps out of it, right?
He almost starts blocking Ben subconsciously and the tension
is like, is he going to block out Ben or is Ben going to get
through? Is Ben's skills going to work?
And then Ben has to call on another watcher and they do it
together. So now this guy has two voices
(19:27):
in his head and it's like that. The final moment saves it.
I didn't need the other ridiculous action of boarding
the plane, although the landing it again kind of saved it
because it was fun. It was intense.
But that was also where I was not bought in because I, I
wasn't in on the Hong Kong app. Hong Kong app, you got to catch
the scientist. I couldn't even track.
(19:48):
Like they know the scientist worked on the weapon.
He didn't know everything, but he knew enough.
Or they had another guy who thengave up this scientist.
He like recognized him from somea drawing that Corbin did or
something. And that was when Nisha had to
be your whole spy thing and theyhad to escape.
And do they the ambulance switch?
They they put these two ambulances in a way that no one
could see that they moved one body out of the other and
(20:10):
switched it with the other guy. That was first of all super
confusing. I didn't understand how it even
happened. Me neither.
I wasn't bought into that. This would be the team doing
that like we went to Peru. I get you're trying to do the
international thing. I I wasn't even sure why the
team had to be on the ground in Peru to be honest with you.
See you, you're doing the international thing.
I didn't need the Hong Kong alsoand then to that to lead into
(20:34):
the New Jersey scene and all of a sudden now it's an attack on
the White House and the president in the Rose Garden for
no reason. And the action is they're going
to use this weapon over DC flying from New Jersey.
I was so not bought into the whole storyline.
I'm just like, go to Saint George's.
What are Sarah Beth and Corbin doing?
And another one, dude, what the hell is David doing?
(20:56):
This book was at the OK. The first book is the watcher
book. You learn all about watchers,
who they are. You know, it opens with a priest
in the bookstore with Corbin. Who are the watchers?
What do they do? The second book, who are the
shepherds? What do they do?
Trinity Loop, this book really needed to lean into the TS LS,
who they are, what they do, why they're necessary.
And there was never that pay off.
(21:18):
Like the only pay off of ATSL was book 2 where David at one
moment gives Jed strength. You know, when he really tells
him, I believed in you Jed, likeyou were our protector.
I know you you blame yourself for what happened to Rachel that
night, but you have always been the protector and we need you to
be the protector and that's who you are in your DNA.
You know, he says reach out and he reads gospel to him.
(21:39):
He's like gospel says reach out and Jed in the middle of a fight
is able to take that advice and win the battle.
David does absolutely nothing here but cower on that plane.
I, I I don't know if he was fully utilized or even if the TS
LS has been utilized. Honestly, I don't even know.
I don't even know at this at this book kind of makes me
(22:01):
question what what the point of them are.
I agree. When Dark Angel did give me
enough, the last book gave me enough to want to say, OK,
they're an integral part of the team.
You had to lean into it and theydidn't.
I do think another opportunity here is David wasn't able to
protect Sarah Beth twice and dark Intercept.
(22:24):
He says on the plane, there's noway in hell I'm not going in and
and not going to be able to protect her this time at Saint
George's. And I get the jet has to tell
him, but you can't do this jump.It's a low altitude, low opening
jump. If it's so dangerous, I wanted
David to say, you know, F all, give me the parachute and jump
(22:45):
the hell out of the plane himself.
And then someone else has to tandem, right?
Jump on to him tandem and he'll be like, you idiot.
You could have got us killed. And he's like, screw you.
And he just starts running and takes off right.
Then the battle of the berm happens, right?
Johnny goes down, Becks has to stay with him.
Eli and Jed battle, you know, blowing things up, and then
they're distracting these demons.
(23:06):
Then Jed finally gets into the building.
But the whole time, David, sincehe's not an operative, was just
like, quietly sneaking in, you know, like he found an extra
passageway. She's like, I wasn't going to
let my daughter go to the schoolwithout seeing the architectural
plans and pouring over it. And he knew some secret passage
or whatever. And David saved us a day.
Like I think there needs to be an opportunity for David to be
(23:28):
his daughter's hero. And yet she's just sitting there
thinking Uncle Jed, Uncle Jed come save me.
And then he does and Uncle Jed turns the corner and fights
Victor. I thought it was a missed
opportunity because we've done that 3-4 times or whatever.
Uncle Jed saved me. I was like, David, let the let
the dad come in and I think thatneeds to happen or it's going to
boil over. I know you did all this work to,
(23:50):
like, supplant that he's needed,You know, if not, then you
should just had Jed be her dad, you know, like in the story,
like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's very interesting. Yeah.
There's, there's just, there's too many holes in this book man
to like. You're right.
Oh another big one. I don't know if I bought into
(24:11):
the Sodom stuff of like the directed energy weapon would
scare humanity into believing God doesn't exist and losing all
hope. It's like, no, it's a freaking
laser space weapon. Like it's not this big religious
analogy of everyone in the world.
Christians are going to stop believing because there's a
Direct Energy weapon. They're just going to paint
their roofs blue and everybody'sfine and Maui doesn't or you
(24:32):
know, the whole paint your roof blue thing.
You know this conspiracy. Theory.
I've heard about that. Like we we don't the Sodom and
Gomorrah stuff. I just, I wasn't jiving with it.
Didn't give me buy into the scariness of the weapon.
The weapon is deadly enough as it is.
I did not buy that. You had to.
You had. You had to force this religious
(24:53):
component into the weapon. I didn't buy any of it.
And I think, all right, if you're going to use his weapon,
lean into the weapon. Lean into the weapon like it
was. It was a red herring.
It was a side. Show you you trialled it in this
super remote village in Peru. You have no reaction from anyone
(25:16):
besides, you know, the people that we're used to like the
president isn't brought in the the news media isn't brought in
like have another attack, have an attack like on a, on a, like
a whole community at a church. Like, well, the Rose garden one
would have been that. I mean, that's that's that's
you're escalating from triallingit at a remote village in Peru
(25:38):
to boom, we're now going to takethat's a like the white.
House. That's a jump.
That's a jump, yeah. I don't know.
And the fact that they they knowthat they saw multiple boxes in
that one fake thing, but yet they're super blindsided by the
fact that we're going to send all of our firepower after this
(25:58):
one and then boom, there's goingto be a bunch.
So now we're spread all across the world and we're going to
we're going to leave Trinity Loop and the watchers like
exposed to me that. Wouldn't you just have three
planes going over DC, each one with a different one of these
weapons as a fail safe as you know some redundancy?
And then what happened to the other planes?
(26:19):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't.
And at that point, once once they're compromised, wouldn't
Victor just say, OK, all right, we can't get Philadelphia.
Let's light up Exton PA because we're are the planes already
that you know, like. I didn't understand the physics.
I didn't understand the physics of the weapon either.
You had to be at a certain altitude, a certain distance.
The size of the weapon has to bemobile.
(26:41):
But I I didn't understand the weapon.
I didn't like the weapon and it didn't make sense to me.
You forced a religious componentto it.
Nothing worked with that. The weapon was the worst part of
this book. Nothing worked.
It worst part of this book, which kind of cheapens the Peru
stuff. Like the Peru opening scene was
kind of interesting when I read about it without knowing what's
(27:03):
to come. Going back to the Peru stuff on
reread, I was like, none of thisactually matters.
And then chasing down the weapon, oh, this doesn't matter
either. And finding a scientist, this
doesn't matter. The planes in New Jersey doesn't
matter, doesn't matter. I was like, can we just get to
the Saint George's stuff? Already.
Yeah, yeah, really. Seriously.
Yeah. The only thing that I like from
like the Peru stuff was when like Jed goes half cocked and
(27:29):
starts chasing that one Dark 1 and they actually are able to
take him. The interrogation with the dark
one like that was intense. That's true.
The exorcism, like essentially an exorcism like all that was
cool. And like I guess we're again
building lore within this system.
So, you know, there's bits and pieces that I like as we go
(27:50):
throughout. But ultimately you're correct.
None of that stuff in the end mattered because Victor was
going to go you. You could have had any other
like scenario to get the shepherds spread throughout the
world. That would have been
exponentially more believable than this death ray.
(28:14):
Yeah. When ultimately your main goal
was to set up this confrontationat Saint George's with Victor.
Like we knew that was coming. If they if they didn't come, we
would have been pissed off. And they execute that amazingly.
But I don't know, to me, it justdoesn't to For you, it does
salvage the book. I guess for me it does salvage
the book like to it's no longer a dud, but it doesn't do enough
(28:38):
for me to like elevate this. It's definitely not elevating
this book over the 1st 2:00. Yeah, no, it's, it's definitely
in 3rd place. And I thought that ending did
enough to make me say it's stilla good book.
Oh, I'll put it this way. The ending is a great and
fitting end to the trilogy, to the Victor arc and the Murray
(29:01):
arc. I like that part.
Bring it back in with the other two books.
I think that the ending is needed and it's it.
It does a good job at at finishing this three book arc,
but the first 2/3 of this book are just like.
Not a great book but it has a good ending to the trilogy so I
(29:23):
like that it's a refresh. I think the Victor Maria stuff
had to end. I think with both of them being
out of the picture is great. And I don't know what you do,
but like we said before, it's wide open.
I do think you have to come backto the plant of I think you
could finally make the series goa little bit more political,
something with the shepherds being outed, their mission told
to the world or an evil one in DC.
(29:45):
So it's not like we just have tomake.
This small reference to the factthat the DNI is like a major
benefactor. So like, wait, is is the DNI an
actual? Is he a shepherd?
Is he part of the organization? Yeah, they do say that.
So it would be cool if like government agencies,
intelligence community is so in bed with the shepherds, but then
politics, legislative, you know,all the other parts of
(30:07):
government are infiltrated by the dark ones.
Particularly we know there's this congressman.
What if he starts, you know, wanted running for president?
What if he becomes speaker? You know, what if he's in in
charge of a very important committee?
I really think you could start going that way.
That plus the TS LS it, I, I think if you don't do something
like that or you don't have the TS, LS play a much more
integral, integral role, you know, my interest could be
(30:31):
waning so. Let's do it, yeah.
Let's do it. All right, action susceptions,
all right. If if we were going basically
solely on the the third part of the book, it's a 10.
It's a 10 out of 10. But for me, I'm going to knock
(30:54):
it down to points. It's an 8 for me.
It's pretty high, OK, I I think though.
The ending is like is elevating that for me.
This is going to be the highest category possibly of.
Yeah, and then the plot, I'm, I'm digging it even more so.
Let me go 8 then with you on action suspense, just because I
think this is where we're going to make up ground because from
here on out, folks, it's not going to be a pretty ride.
(31:17):
Yeah, because for me like the plot is like a six and coupled
with that the buy in is like a like a two.
I, I I I want to go like almost one but that that seems too low
for me. Yeah, 66 and 2 is pretty fair,
but I got to go higher on buy injust because I I I couldn't put
(31:38):
it down at the end. I was really having a good time
with it. The plot though, I could
honestly go even lower than a six.
Yeah, the plot, you can go like a 5 or 64456, it's right now.
No, I'll go, I'll go 5. I think a four could be in play,
but I'll go, I'll go A5. I'm changing my to the five too.
OK, yeah, I I think we were trying trying to be a little too
(32:00):
generous. Here, I think just everything
that we brought up, you know, like the fact that 2/3 of this
book ultimately doesn't matter says something a lot about the
plot, you know? I agree.
I agree. I think bad guys, I, I don't
really know anything new. Maybe, maybe what gives a point
back to Bad guys for me is when Sarah Beth sees Victor as a boy.
(32:25):
Yeah. Did you?
Did you like that? Was that a?
Thing to you, I did I, I think it's I think it's been done
before. I think it's rehashing.
Sure. Yeah, yeah.
But at the same time, it makes sense for this series, I think.
At some point, you know, like. At at some point we had to learn
who Victor really is, and knowing the Christian roots of
the story, we we had to realize Victor is ultimately A
(32:45):
sympathetic character. Victor's human side.
Victor's human side. Not the legion of demons he
commands or the ones who converted him, but I think
seeing the little boy who went through so much trauma, who saw
men of faith, people of faith, put who is it his mother to
death violently. Yeah, exactly.
(33:06):
Kind of like Salem witch witch trial stuff.
I think that was unfortunately the only new thing we learned
about the villains and Victor. But it was a good enough thing
to learn about the villains thatI can go, oh, I think a force
too kind. Yeah.
But because of that it gives it half a point.
So 3 1/2 I would go 3 but but but getting in Victor's head I
(33:29):
think earns back that half a point.
Yeah, I'll see you with that. I, I think, you know, we already
gave Victor the high praise in the 1st 2 novels and you have to
do something in order to get that four or five again, you
have to level up. And I, I think that you're
right. The only thing we get is like a
a very glimpse peek at his back story.
(33:55):
Yeah, 3 1/2. Well done by McLeod Andrews
though to do a Victor voice as atotally different as just a boy
talking to Sarah Beth and. I don't know what he sometimes
he's using, like I don't know ifit's a synthesizer or something,
but man, the audio book on this thing is awesome.
So good. Cloud Andrews does a great job.
It's so good. That could be the free space.
Every single book, you know, theaudio books are phenomenal.
(34:19):
Good guys Nisha brings. It's so sad because Nisha last
book brought it up like Nisha would be a six out of five last
book. This book I don't I want to know
her back story. I believe she maybe was with
NSACIA whoever, but I just don'tbelieve how that is told to me.
It's too like didactic. It's like telling you.
(34:39):
It just wants you to believe that's just telling you it and
it's not authentic. The conversation she's having
during that whole I'm going to take over as this like last
book, she was the operator. Jed wanted her at the Vatican on
his. I know, like he said, all of a
sudden he doesn't trust her as the operator.
She's always like, you're betteron the comms.
Yeah, he's like you're you're better sifting through Intel.
(35:00):
No, I make that back, Sir. Make that someone random.
She's not the one who's better at sifting through Intel.
And like she's sitting in an office.
Direct I I felt like they were they were pinning her up to be
the best of both and this book, they tried to make her take a
step back on the whole, on the whole operator side.
I didn't. I didn't believe it.
Me neither. So that Dings at a point, Josh
(35:21):
and Michaela and the team, the team of watchers gives me a
point at The Avengers assemble moment.
So I think I end up at a 3 1/2 again.
OK, I was going to go for it, OK.
Mainly because I thought I love the Johnny piece.
Like putting aside the whole yeah, yeah, you should have
(35:41):
killed him. What?
I mean, Yeah, yeah, All right. Whatever.
But I do think they played that because they've been building
that up. Right.
Yeah. For two books now.
Yeah. And finally they had that
confrontation. And I thought that that, that
that played very well. I I also think like that the
relationship between Eli and Jedwas it grew strengthened and,
(36:06):
and deepened in this novel, you know, and it was a you learn a
little bit more about like, oh, I guess like Eli's also been
there a long time and he's a super like, why was he passed
over? And, but, but he, unlike Johnny,
just clicked. And to me he was almost like the
my, you know, spoiler word. He was my, my winner of the
(36:28):
book, like a little bit like just the, the stuff that he does
and the vulnerability he shows at the very end.
He's he's with there with Jed. He I thought he was dead.
Like when, when Victor like picks him up and throws him and
they say his like neck is, is like, you know, limp.
And I'm like, holy shit, did youyou not only did you kill, I
(36:49):
thought like all these guys were.
I thought Cordman was dead. I thought Eli was dead.
I thought Maria. Maria, obviously was dead.
Snaps Maria's neck and she just goes down the wall.
Yeah. Slides down the wall.
Yeah, I thought all these. I thought the the other little
kid Josh was dead. Like yo, he.
Tosses Michaela Sarah Beth is running away and he tosses her
and she's like did he just toss a girl a.
Body at me, Yeah. Stop me, Yeah, yeah.
(37:13):
So I'm I'm gonna go for, I'm gonna go for a good guess.
OK, yeah, I think I'll stay 3 1/2.
But you're right, Johnny's Johnny's arc there to come
around and then Eli becoming a main player because I wondered
about Eli and it's just mission before self.
You know, Johnny had like that ego to be like, it's not fair.
Eli deserves this is not fair. And Eli was just able to rise
(37:34):
above that. Yeah, here's a great quote.
Like like if, if today is the day that I'm even maker, I'm
ready. I serve him like you know, he
when they're about to take that lilo jump.
So. Yeah, no, he's, he's like the
definition of like service, likeservant leader setting.
(38:00):
It's a tough one. It's the same kind of story.
We've been saying I love St. George's.
I felt like it was Hogwarts. I felt that we got the most,
like, new information about Saint George's, like learning
about the sanctuary and the White Room and, you know, these
various dormitories and in the talk and like, all that kind of
stuff. Like I, I could visualize all
(38:20):
that in my head. And yeah, like you're saying
like Hogwarts vibes nonstop. That's a 5 out of five.
It's just I hated New Jersey. I hated Hong.
Kong. Everything else.
Peru was. Didn't really like me.
We could have been in Dubai during the Hong Kong scene, like
it, it didn't could have been anywhere.
A little, a little bit of like work to try to like set us up
(38:43):
with the whole the harbour and alittle bit the New Jersey stuff
was why are you in Atlantic City?
It didn't make any sense to me. Why do they have to go to
Atlantic City? Yeah.
It didn't make any sense. Peru.
Yeah. OK.
Hong Kong, New Jersey, or. I think a three.
(39:05):
Peru is like a three and Saint George is a 5.
So yeah, let's go. Through the.
Middle. Yeah, I think I'm what?
I'm half a point. No, yeah, I'm half a point up
right now from my buy in. Yeah.
Boost, you know, free space. I got one for you.
Easily could be Johnny or Eli. Mine's Eli for sure.
(39:27):
I'm going to add Sanderson. Oh, that's a good one.
The guard Sanderson was great. And when Jed?
First out of the birds like yeah, yeah.
He's like this guy might be ableto be a shepherd like a like a
full on like move up, send him out in the field down range
Shepherd, not just a a gate guard, but again, servant
leadership. He did his job.
He he did it very well. And when the attack was
(39:50):
happening, he gave it his all. He gave it everything.
I paid the price, the ultimate price, but but he gave it
everything. And it's it's heartbreaking at
the end, after what Jed's been through, he's like, and also,
you know, I give my gratitude tothat gay guard.
I can't even remember his name right now.
I'm so tired and he just passes out.
So Sanderson like gets his moment of recognition, but
(40:11):
everything just went so to shit that he can't even think of his
name. But I think that's just real.
I think that's just showing the grittiness, the dark nature of
this. But Sanderson was awesome.
Great character, a good one. That's a good one.
That in the sphere, Josh grabbing the spear.
For me, I think it's like an EliJohnny combo, like having those
two other and as well as Yoon, Ithink he was the best part of
(40:36):
the whole Hong Kong stuff. Like I thought that his
character was, was pretty well set, you know, like I, I, I was
fully bought in that he would have been the one doing that
kind of stuff. Becks too, you know, Becks was
good. I felt like we fleshed out her a
little bit more like this medic.She's, you know, but she can
ride or die with everyone like the team, the team is solid and
(40:58):
just getting a little bit more of that was was great.
So. Yeah, I think the way you
brought up all those two, I forgot about you.
And he's he's even a bit of Comic Relief on the Hong Kong OP
keep saying that. So I think I'm going to go 4.
I'm going to I'm going to get back that half a point on good
guys, then I'm going back to good guys with with a four.
Yeah, Becks too. I forgot she was great cover
(41:20):
time. It's actually a good one.
It's probably the best out of the three.
I'm I'm going to have to say that this fireball all right, so
first of all, why is it helicopters, though?
Well, that lay low jump. They're not in helicopters,
(41:42):
they're in an airplane, right? Oh, that's true.
God damn it. They had airplanes last time.
I know when they were in helicopters.
Now they have helicopters when they were in airplanes.
Oh shoot, you're right. Wow, you just keep bringing me
down tonight, my man. I came into this thinking like.
Having this. Low 40s.
Castle like fortress, obviously you have something that looks
(42:04):
like some sort of like on the one thing that's that's some
sort of vehicle right that they're in front of so that that
could be the APC. You know two kitted up operators
like I fully get like that is believable and the same thing
with with the other one like this is obviously St.
George's you know, you have this, although I don't know why
it should be sunny. It should be more like like
(42:25):
this, because I I love the fact this giant storm is coming and
like to me, I was like, is is Victor bringing the storm or is
it just, you know, coincidence, right like that you didn't
really know like what what was happening, but.
Yeah, that was cool. That adds to setting a little
bit. That was that was a cool fact.
What do we give on the covers? Alaska.
(42:48):
I think threes both times, No 3 and 3 1/2 maybe this one almost
builds on the good parts of DarkAngel and makes it even a little
better, but we. Gave threes on both.
Oh. We did all right then.
This one's a 3 1/2. This is a 3 1/2.
It's not quite a four. I was going to say, if we gave
one of them a 3 1/2, we'd have to give this one A4.
And a four to go up, yeah. But it it does something a
(43:11):
little bit more for me. But man, bringing up those
helicopters when they're in airplanes, that's tough.
Just swap the at. Least they have St.
George's. At least they have that.
Yeah, yeah, yes, it's true. If they didn't have St.
George's, I'd go much lower. It's Battle of the Berms.
It really just looks like it. Tough one tonight, Chris.
(43:31):
A little bit of a tough one. But I'll bet.
All right, So what? I got a 34.
What do you have, Mike? Then I should be one point
higher. They're 35.
Yeah, 35 OK, tough pill to swallow.
It's about 10 points lower. I gave Dark Angel A-44, you gave
(43:52):
it a 45. I gave Dark Intercept a 45.5 and
you gave Dark Angel Dark Intercept to 46.
Yeah. Big fall, but I kind of figured
this was going to be. I knew it was going to crack 30.
(44:13):
Yeah. Wasn't quite sure if it was
going to crack 40 but you know. Yeah.
Kind of makes sense. It's like right there.
Not. Completely trash but.
No, not, no, not by any means. But the numbers do indicate how
I remember feeling on my first reads of all of these.
I remember being so high on DarkIntercept.
I remember saying, oh, the second book was also really
(44:36):
good, Like I like that. And then I remember the third
book was like, oh, what are we doing here?
I'm not sure about this. So I do remember and that's why
when we did Dark Intercept, I was like, Chris, we'll see how
the next few go. And I was a little hesitant
because I remember a bit of a drop off.
It's a little bit more of a dropoff than I recall, but but at
(44:58):
the same time, Dark Angel was better than I recalled.
I Dark Angel on reread I liked even more than I remembered.
Dark Fall on reread I liked a little less.
Than I a little less OK. Except for the ending of course,
as I. Said now we're but you're not
reading it with like a different, you know, the critics
eye in the sense. No, it's true.
It's true. Covering it for the bonds.
(45:19):
I stand by though everything in the Saint Georges attack was one
of the most fun rides I've had in a while.
Reading an action scene and whenyou talk about character arcs,
if you're trying to do a trilogyand wrap it up, if there were
loose ends of characters who youknew had to meet and you were
anticipating the meeting. Maria who who, who's good, who's
(45:41):
bad? We're going to find out in the
final battle. It better be something epic.
The backdrop, like you said withthe lightning better be epic.
The setting at the school, you know, wherever it is, might
needs to be epic. The the villain has to has to be
a big bad. You can't have a villain who
just pussies out and loses, you know, very quickly.
It's got to be a big bad. And I think every one of those
(46:01):
components of what makes a race of Vince Flynn style race to the
finish, I think all of those components were here in the
final few chapters of this book.So I was very satisfied.
This is like, it reminded me of like finishing a Memorial Day or
the ending to an American assassin or I just had that
thrill of, you know, when a bookpeaks, there's nothing better
(46:25):
when you're at the point of a book, even if you haven't been
into the book, but but you're just hanging along, you're there
for the ride. And you're at that point of
like, is this book just becoming, you know, a burden for
me to have to finish just because?
Because I want to. And and it gets you, though,
when it grips you in that momentand doesn't let you put it down,
there's nothing like it. Like that is just such a fun
ride. It's a good feeling.
(46:45):
They accomplished that. They really did.
Yeah. No, it's good.
All right, so next time we'll becovering Dark Rising.
Should we do it? Should we just knock it out?
Let's do it, man. I've already started on Audible
so we're good to go. Let's go, let's go.
All right, I'm intrigued. I think, like, you know, the
ending and the culmination of the trilogy did definitely did
(47:09):
enough for me to want to read the next one because I'm I need
to know, know where we go next. Yeah, completely.
All right, Well. Before we get out of here, we
need to thank our patrons, our deputy director Sherry F, our
special operator, Jason C, our special agent Ben, Darrell,
Kevin, George, Matt, Dawn, Peggy, Chris and Mark.
(47:31):
Please subscribe to No Limits the Thriller Podcast.
You can find us.online@thrillerpod.com or on
Twitter, Instagram at Thriller podcast.
And as always, just let Eli Eli.What should have done just like
(47:51):
Corbin be Corbin could have donejust like Corbin be Corbin.
Just let Sarah Beth be Sarah Beth.
What did you I guess we're we'rejust recording.
What did you think of Sarah Bethin the end when you really talk
(48:11):
about her? You know what?
She does shine in that final sequence.
She really does. To me, I thought she was a
little annoying like her mom in the first two books, but this
one, you know, I thought, you'reright.
She she does shine and ultimately she is the reason
that, you know, they're able to to conquer and defeat Victor.
(48:32):
And so I think she she earned the right to be like a key
figure in the story, so. I think she did earn it.
I think she grew into the role and if it weren't for an age
gap, this is finally the point where I'm like, she could, she
could be a Corbin. She could pick up the mantle
where I don't know if I would have said that last book.
I don't think she was ready. This one, now that she's
(48:52):
projecting, she's able to project while running, which was
in That was an insane sequence, She.
Still has this kid like naivete of like, whoa, that's cool, I
didn't know I could do that. But you know, Corbin, I think
can show her. Wonder what's next for Corbin.
I know what's next for Sarah Beth.
She has to be the lead watcher. She has to teach the younger
(49:13):
kids. She has to perfect her powers.
She probably even has to go beyond a Pastor D You know, she
has to maybe she has to find like a Yoda.
You know, I feel like she has tofind a Yoda and it it's possibly
Ben Morvent. I don't.
Know, I was just about to say that maybe it's Ben.
Maybe it's Ben, or Ben maybe hasto realize she's so powerful
that he has to help her find a Yoda.
(49:35):
You know, I think it'd be reallycool to do a Dagobah type scene
for her. She's either lost, she's gone,
or she willingly goes on a mission off grid and the fruits
that that mission will bear, Like Luke Skywalker doesn't get
it at first. He messes up, he has to go save
his friends. But ultimately he was destined
(49:55):
and designed to make those choices.
I think you could very much do aSarah Beth Skywalker attempt.
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