June 18, 2025 • 54 mins
Chris and mike break down Dark Rising - book #4 in the Shepherd Series by Andrews and Wilson.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:19):
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
And welcome back to this week's No Limits the Thriller podcast.
How you doing today, Mike? I am doing great.
One more day of school left before we're out for summer and
I'm going to have a lot of reading to do this summer.
Chris, I'm sure you will as well.
(00:40):
Oh my God, we were just going upbefore the meeting.
We were going over our reading list for July, and I haven't
read an actual book in a long time.
I'm used to listening to these books and I got to actually
read. But at least it's authors I
love. I'm excited.
So we got a new Brad Thor novel coming out.
(01:01):
More importantly, I mean I shouldn't say more importantly,
but more intriguingly, we got a new Kyle Mills book coming out
that's not a mid trap book. Fade in.
I believe you just booked back-to-back interviews.
We haven't interviewed a person on the spot in a long time.
Good to get back to the interviews.
Yeah, we got Kyle and Brad linedup coming soon to you guys with
(01:24):
their new releases. So yeah, a lot of reading, a lot
of interviewing, a lot of podcasting on the docket.
Yes, so we you know, we're just keeping it rolling here.
We got it. We got a we had to push back SA
Kazi's book. Not that we're not intrigued for
it, but just things pop up. We're going to get to it.
We have a jam packed July jam packed really summer for you.
(01:48):
But before we get to that, we have to finish this series, Dark
Rising. And I was disappointed.
I'm just going to come out and say it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Do you think you're just darked out doing all four books back
to? Back I wonder, I wonder.
(02:08):
I wonder if that plays a role. Sometimes I wonder that but like
I was so high coming off of books 1 and 2.
Yes. And then, you know, last book we
we had our critiques. We weren't like super low on it,
but we definitely was the lowestof the three.
But I guess I was ready for thisrefresh and knowing that we were
(02:29):
going to get that we did. We did get that.
It's very interesting to see howthey took this book.
There's a lot of things I want to talk to you about.
You know, the fact that our our heroes are maybe corrupted.
That was super intriguing. Something we we have not
explored yet to date. For sure.
(02:51):
The the big bad, like we there was a this this book had a a
dark right? Like the the the titular event
happens and it's a crazy ass scene but everyone dies.
Yeah, we needed the post Victor era.
We needed something to usher in what happens next.
(03:14):
And the idea of a dark rising, it is just a perfect vehicle for
that, a ceremony, a ritual by which the next dark Prince is
appointed. Right?
But I think it was a cool like most things in this book, I was
a very happy with the concepts and the ideas.
Something in the execution fallsoff.
Something in the buy into all ofit falls off.
(03:36):
It like should work in principle, but just didn't sit
right as I was reading it. So you have the Dark Rising,
like who's going to be the next Victor?
I just don't buy into this cast of villains.
And we almost get too wide of a cast of villains because the
next Victor appointed in the Dark Rising is not even a
character in the stories. He's in like 2 chapters.
(03:58):
It's a random guy who is actually going to be manipulated
and used by Mambo Italia who is supposed to be the big bad but
not really sure how I feel abouther.
And then it's like she has this sidekick Calypso, who actually
is the big bad of. Of this book the.
Plot of the book of the Shepherds, right, She's the one
actually interacting with the shepherds.
(04:20):
So it's like we have a big bad and a sidekick, but the sidekick
is actually the big bad to the characters we like and we want
to see she has her own weird qualities.
So I think we're going to have to dig into these villains,
which is a strange thing. But on the flip side are good
guys. We're seeing kind of chinks in
the armor. We're seeing some cracks,
whether it's Ben Morvant, we're learning his powers seem to be
(04:42):
receding, which maybe it it either is naturally happening as
he's he ages. Or like a watcher.
Like like what happens with the Watchers.
It's almost a miracle that he still has these powers.
Or is it his own doubt? You know, his own self
transformation going down a slippery slope in a dark path
that that's the reason he's losing the powers?
Is it chicken or the egg? And there's a little subtle hint
(05:05):
of Sarah Beth not outright lying, but she says to her mom,
she promises not to project backinto the house for that final
battle. And she's crossing her fingers.
So she promises to her mom. She's crossing her fingers
behind her back. She doesn't really mean to honor
that promise. Our heroes are cracking like
they're not the perfect angels they've almost been set up to
(05:26):
be. There's a there's a couple
little signals that Ben and Sarah Beth, two of the most pure
characters, might have some foibles and then some, you know,
some issues in their mind behindthe scenes and.
Even David. Even David, David is getting a
little jealous that's coming through.
I think that's a very interesting take to actually
(05:47):
show the shepherds have some cracks.
Yeah, no. A lot of things I want to dive
into. I think ultimately, you know,
Jed is our rock, our center. We are with him majority of this
novel and while I did like, you know, him sort of this is funny
(06:09):
like he has to go on a vacation but he he really can't.
He can't. Yeah, he can't take a vacation.
I'm. Sure, a lot of operators and
service members can identify. Law enforcement that that kind
of stuff was was interesting I II kind of bought into this idea
of him. You know getting with GAIL.
Maybe it was a little fast, but like, you know, obviously
they're they're quick friends. They she was established in the
(06:31):
last book. Going forward, it makes sense
that she would continue to be the liaison.
And, you know, there's some sortof tension between them.
You know, now that we've gotten rid of Maria, you know, we need
to bring in a love interest for Jed.
I think, and maybe you can disagree.
I think the biggest downfall of this book is not having the
(06:56):
team. Yeah, Joshua Bravo.
Joshua Bravo, present until the umpteenth hour.
The final action. Scene and even then we barely
get them. I mean, the, The thing is
though, I know that that will have a scene.
They come in huge, they come in hot and heavy for one final
(07:18):
battle. But we, I, I want to explore
their characters. I want to explore their
interactions, their dynamics, and if they just operate
together and don't do anything else except for downrange.
We're not getting their full breath, their full characters.
And that was a deliberate choice.
I remember early on in the book the vacation stuff was being
talked about and Ben was tellingJed, look, you know, Nisha's
(07:40):
here, Bex is here, everyone's gone, you have to go to forced
vacation. I was like, I knew that he was
setting it up like the the we'renot going to be with the team.
It was very intentional. Yeah, I think that's what took
me out of the book. I love their dynamic and we're
building towards this, this crescendo with this last book.
And then you immediately like, strip that away.
(08:02):
I don't know. And and even when we did get
them, we didn't get the full extent of them.
Like we didn't get the full Eli.No, Eli's got to.
He's got to have an arc here soon like he really does.
We saved Johnny in the last bookjust to kill him just to kill
him in this book. Should have been done last book
you could have got you could. That was a we we talked about
that. That was a great like arc for
(08:25):
him to die in the last book if. He fell in the Battle of Saint
George's. That would have meant so much.
It would have I feel like it would have could have brought
the team together and then it would have given space in this
book for an Eli, a Jung, becauseJung has his moment.
I thought the end. The only one out of the group is
Jung. Jung has his moment with that
fight at the end. I love it.
(08:46):
What? It's almost like an Avengers
scene, taking down pianos when the the three of them corner him
or triangulate him, and it's like Ben's here getting off his
feet after being choked out. Jed's over here with his knife
fully out. Yoon is just thrown to the wall,
but he's back in the game. And now they corner the one who
just became the new victor, and they're just like stabbing him
(09:09):
over and over in this massive battle.
I thought that was such a cool scene, but that and the cemetery
scene, if you did not have thosetwo set action pieces or the
cemetery is more of a suspense scene, but.
Where Jed is buried alive. When it where he's buried alive.
I didn't like this book at all. Outside of those things, we also
(09:29):
have to talk about the voodoo ofit all.
Yeah, that, that was very interesting to me.
Yeah, to bring that in, said it in Haiti to Haiti, you know,
have this, you know, sort of, you know, sort of outside a
religion type thing. I don't know, I feel like this
is something that Andrews and Wilson, you know, they read
(09:52):
about and then they're like, oh,that's a cool idea, we should
incorporate it into the book. But yet for me it didn't didn't
quite fully fit. Yeah.
I I will reserve judgement on Mambo Italia until we see her
art play out. 'Cause she got away, 'cause she
got away. You know, like, I mean the the
(10:14):
whole Dark Watchers thing is very intriguing to me.
Awesome. I wanted them to play up.
I was expecting that to play a bigger role.
Same in this book and it did not.
And they did say though, like it's an experimental program.
So I, I think there's more to bedone with the fact that they
took Sonny as one of the most powerful.
She's almost like the Sarah Bethwho the dark side has and wants
(10:35):
to corrupt. So I really like I said, I love
the concepts. I don't know if they're executed
well. I really like the school.
I, I, I think a school where you've kidnapped kids, you're
basically tricking them into thinking you're their savior by
giving them nice things out. You would never have a room like
this. You would never eat like this.
(10:56):
There's all this ice cream and Sonny's friend Amadei, I think
it was the boy he he falling to their into their trap shows how
alluring this is and how easy itwill be for them to attract
other children to their cause. Here's the problem.
I love the idea of dark watchersand a dark school to foil St.
(11:19):
George's and to interrupt the Shepherd's operations.
But what I did not like was the zombie bullshit.
So like you didn't need to add that element when just having
the school manipulating these kids through materialism was
such a a really neat idea and cool concept.
I don't know if the zombie thingreally one added anything 2 Made
(11:43):
sense to me at all. It just was an eye roll moment.
And three, I think there were would be other creative ways you
can get the kids to do your bidding for the dark side
without having to do some esoteric zombie nonsense.
Now they were trying to match itwith the voodoo stuff.
I did that. Because of the setting and you
know, like, I get that to me almost the the way the zombie
(12:04):
stuff was reading to me is that it's all like a it's all a ruse.
You know, like you, you purposely put someone under, you
bury them alive, then you bring them back from the dead and you
sort of like lie to them and through this post traumatic
stress disorder of them being buried alive and Ding that they
died. They're brainwashed.
(12:24):
They're brainwashed into being your servant.
So like that's how I thought it.And like, wait, are so are these
three kids? Are they like that or is, is
voodoo actually real? Like it wasn't clearly
explained. Like those 3 little stooges that
you know, are are are pour the tea and you know that sure, if
(12:45):
you were to do this visually in like a movie setting like that
would be super creepy and you know, a key element, but it that
that part of it just wasn't explained well enough and not
not needed, you know, like they.Have them just be possessed.
Yeah, they have. Demon spirits in them the same
way Victor and all the Dark Oneshave these.
(13:06):
You already you already have just just asking a lot of me to
like buy into that. And then like you want to add in
this other thing. You know, I've already I've
already sort of like I've committed to that one.
I've committed to this series like so just adding something
else on top of it just to add itlike is is not necessary.
Imagine if instead of the zombiestuff with whatever the
(13:26):
concoction was that they make them breathe and knock them out
and all and then bury them and resurrect them.
Just honestly be like, we're taking the spirits of demon
children like dead children. Like maybe from the school or
otherwise. And the same way Victor and the
other dark ones have that burning glow in their eyes,
they're doing that with childrenand they can control the
(13:48):
children. And that to me is even more
scary. And it's in universe, it's
established, it's not yet another thing you have to add.
Yeah, and it what I thought was super intriguing is right.
They they even mentioned that they're able to Co opt these
kids and use their powers for like a very short time.
But it's almost because they're a gift from God.
Like God quickly, like realizes that, you know, these powers
(14:10):
that get and then he has they, they fade super quickly.
So it's like it's a time bomb. And I, I like the fact that
they're right. Like you, you have, you could
have had like these, I don't know, maybe not most powerful
demons, but like lesser demons. They're the ones that go into
these kids. They're able to take over their
powers, but they can only hold on to it, you know, only mask
their intentions from God, the higher power who gives them
(14:32):
these gifts for so long. And then as soon as that gone
and then they have to leave the body and the the kid is no
longer useful. I knew as soon as they were
taking those kids on the bus andlike Sonny was like able to like
communicate. You know, you immediately got
like, like someone's figured outhow to how to make dark watchers
and that that's a great concept.I, I like you said, we keep
(14:55):
coming back to it. A lot of good points, a lot of
good ideas in this novel. Just I think the execution just
didn't didn't do. It we're already being asked
like you said to take so many leaps and the faithful audience
and you heard us love on the first three books or first 2.4
(15:17):
books yeah 2 1/2 books love on it.
We've already committed. Don't try to now extend us into
believing all these other thingsthat we have to buy into.
Let's and just to put another point on the voodoo, they, they
at least did the due diligence of like explaining it because
there is a country there. There is a compelling factor of
(15:40):
these actually are somewhat rooted in Christian tradition.
It's just that due to human fallibility of like literally
transporting people out of theirhomeland homeland and kidnapping
them into slavery for generations, those traditions
were ripped from people. Well, how are the people going
to continue their traditions, you know, while enslaved, while
(16:02):
you have to combine it with the Christian tradition?
So you get this blend of cultures that was almost forced.
And so there's a lot of good in the traditions because it is
Christian based. But then there's a lot and it
is, you know, based on true African beliefs.
But then you get the weirdness because of it has to be kept
underground. It has to be hidden.
And so like, there's the good and the bad in it.
(16:23):
Like I think voodoo became a term in the West that basically
means evil magic spells. And it's not that at all.
It's actually the face of a people trying to combine African
heritage with like Christian Saints, for example, a lot of
their little statues figurines are the Christian Saints, but
they, they had this mystical element to them based on animism
(16:43):
and other roots. And I think they, they broke
that down and then they also gotinto like the differences, you
know, like Cuban Santeria is somewhat related and Condomble
in Brazil is somewhat related. And there's a different version,
the Dominican one and then the Haitian 1.
So they, there's no doubt they did their research, they had the
(17:03):
historical facts, but just don'tknow if that was where I wanted
to see the whole idea of shepherds and dark ones go.
Although I guess that's what Mambo Italia is doing, is she is
using those voodoo skills to almost infiltrate and take over
the dark ones. Sure, because she didn't want to
just play along with how the dark ones have always done
(17:24):
business. She wanted to do it her way.
And because she's a female, she she can't play the normal.
She can't do it the normal way. But in voodoo traditions, there
are priestesses. That's the.
Model exactly. Exactly.
It's just, it's no doubt they did their research, it just
didn't work for me. Yeah, I, I don't know, it's all
right. So if that didn't work for us,
(17:49):
let let's let's try to focus on some things that did work for us
and then then we can get into the scorecard because there are
some things that I did like about this book.
Sure, I agree. I think my single favorite thing
I liked was, you know, seeing I,I feel like we did get a a
(18:09):
deeper dive into Jed and you youmentioned like this idea of we
need to know more about the TS LS.
Yeah, OK. Yep, David.
I thought like that that was almost addressed to me.
You like OK, they they were listening to our pod even though
like they weren't where they wrote this way before we even
did this pod, but like. They knew it was time.
They they, they could tell like,all right, we've established who
(18:33):
these kind of characters are andwe, we need to play on them a
little more. And immediately David has to
play a role. And then I thought it was super
intriguing to bring in this likeinfallibility with David, with,
you know, him, his jealousy, hisrage, almost like you can see
like all right in everyone, no matter who you are, whether
(18:54):
you're a shepherd, normal person, not you can be
susceptible to demons. And so I, I, I, I loved all that
same thing with Ben, you know, like the with him and the rage
at the end, his anger, his, his revenge.
Like I, I would question that hegot most of those people killed
(19:17):
in that final scene because of the inner demons.
And I, I, I, I'm almost positivewe're going to, we're going to
reflect on that in the beginningof the next book.
We have to. Ben.
Something's happening with Ben. We not only lose Johnny, but we
lose Carl. Yeah.
Yeah. Multiple people are injured.
(19:39):
Like it it it that last battle insane.
I also say like that's the otherthing.
That last battle was amazing. Like it was wild, like written
very well. I I had to go back and listen to
it multiple times because we're cutting back from Sarah Beth's
projections and then then going back and rewinding and seeing
(20:01):
the same thing from Jed side or seeing the same thing from a
demon side or seeing the same thing from Ben's side.
Like, you know, literally we're,we're experiencing what?
Like 10 minutes worth of a battle, but over the course of
two hours, yeah, like 2 hours oflike of audio book time.
(20:22):
Like it's insane. I was peeking at the cemetery
scene, which comes just after the halfway point, and when that
wrapped up and they saved Jed and David was the hero, I was
like, what? What else are they going to?
Do I know right? Where are they going to go with
this? And then to come out with that
final scene, I was like, OK, I can enjoy the rest of my time
(20:42):
now because I wasn't sure what was going to fill that space.
And and they filled it with a epic, epic battle.
Not as good as the Saint George's battle.
Not as good, but still very. Powerful, but still very
powerful one. And then I like how the the
girls came together when the Sarah Beth and Corbin
projections found the watchers, the children hiding in the guest
house. And so they projected over there
(21:04):
and were able to communicate with Sonny.
I think that added a little moredrama that, you know, when Mambo
Italia escaped with Sonny, we saw that play out.
So yeah, I like that. I like that.
I do want to go back to the TSL point.
I I was very happy, really happywhen early on he's still in
Santo Domingo, so still the Dominican Republic.
(21:27):
And he just it's probably beforehe got arrested, but the woman
came up to him and said, help mefind my child, help me find my
child. And he's he he's like, I don't
know how I can help. What can I possibly do?
But he promises this lady, I'll keep my eyes peeled.
And he and he calls David. I that meant so much to David
and it meant so much to me as the reader felt validated, like
(21:49):
TS LS need to play a role. Jed's out here out of his
element, supposed to be on vacation, relaxing.
He can't get this thing out of his mind.
He thinks it sounds like, you know, he was placed there by
divine intervention. The woman was told to go to this
cathedral. He was like, oh, I have some
free time. Let me go walk and see the
sights. Like he knew.
(22:10):
And maybe that's what we all need to tune into, right?
These things that happen in our life.
So we just write off as a coincidence or we're too busy on
our phones or we're too busy with media.
We don't even notice these moments, these human
interactions, which maybe are taking place for a reason, for a
purpose, and we all just write it off, come up with 1,000,000
reasons or too distracted to care.
Well, that's what makes Watchersand shepherds different is that
(22:31):
they're attuned to those things.And maybe we all can learn from
that. And because he was attuned into
it, he just didn't even intentionally do it.
He just naturally called David. Like, I don't think it was like
a choice of like, I'm going to report this to my TSL.
It was just like I got to talk to somebody and even tells
David. He's like, I just felt the need
to talk to somebody. And so why not talk to you as a
(22:51):
spiritual guide for me. And David's like it really means
a lot that that you called me. So their relationship is helped
by this. David is finding purpose after
questioning his purpose, lettinghis daughter nearly get killed
twice. Yeah, I think David need to be
brought in. And that phone call showed me,
Dang, a guy like Jed operating without a David doesn't have
(23:12):
that spiritual guide, doesn't have that body to lean on,
doesn't have someone someone to to talk to and and question and
ask things and get advice from is lost.
And that was perfectly done. Then it came full circle when
David had the shovel killed the dark 1.
He felt powerless. He's like, Jed's going to die.
Sarah Beth is here watching withthe projection.
(23:33):
She's like, he's like, I got I can't do anything.
I'm helpless. Oh, Jed gave his life
essentially to save David and Nail.
Well, the reason he's there is to save David Gal, Yeah.
Yeah, and Jed, like, sacrificed himself.
So David's like, I'm just a worthless piece of nothing.
I am totally worthless. Jed's the hero.
He sacrificed himself again. And now I got away and I'm safe.
(23:58):
He needed to do something. And I thought the cemetery scene
was just a perfect way to save the day.
And he he fought a dark one. We can say he fought and
defeated a Dark One with that shovel.
I immediately thought of you when, when we're going through
that scene of, of Jed calling, calling David.
And like, I loved it, you know, like I was like, ah, like, yes,
(24:19):
Martini got what he wanted. And like, you know, I did too,
like, because I agreed with you in the sense that the, the,
these, we've established these roles for these people and they
need to be utilized more. You know, I think, like I said,
we, we saw a lot more of introspection from Jed and he's
still like trying to explore hispowers, you know, is it that
(24:43):
like, and I was wondering this, as Ben's powers are receding,
are, are Jed's powers rising? Is it, is it is it can, can
these powers only coexist in oneshepherd?
Like, you know, like Jed will bethe replacement for Ben.
And that's the, that's what we are, are grooming him for, you
know, 'cause he's not a watcher.He's not, he's obviously an
(25:05):
operator, but he, he's like, he's the best of both worlds.
He's an healer, He's a, he's a communicator.
He can. He can do a lot of different
things. And that builds off last book
when Ben was so shocked and everybody was shocked that Jed
sees the dark Ones, they expose themselves to him.
And the conversation with Rachelof, like, you actually saw, you
know, the demon leave Kenny's body that night.
(25:28):
And, like, he and Rachel were the only ones who saw it.
So he's got the. Yeah.
I wonder. It's something like the
midichlorians, right? He's got more midichlorians than
everyone else. Or, or there's a prophecy of the
chosen 1. And I like this idea of Ben
giving it to Jed. And that's why Ben is kind of
regressing, if you will. The other question about Ben is
(25:48):
his son, his wife and son. Oh yeah, his two kids, but
primarily his son with the, witha lot of these gifts comes up.
That's got to be a plant, right?That that's that's a seed.
Well, for sure, because the multiple times that they bring
it up that like there was some something happened because of
his powers, like his powers are so strong.
(26:09):
You know, it's almost like, likeit's been done before.
And and you know, whether it's X-Men or, you know, some sort of
stories that like you, you've had to protect this kid from his
powers. Like he, he, they, they don't
even let him go to Saint George's.
Like exactly. Yep.
But he's the first person to come in and say something like
(26:30):
Jed is is missing or like Jed is.
I think Ben gets off the phone with Jed in prison and Ben is
thinking like I hope. There's, oh, he's like, he
didn't do it. He didn't.
He didn't kill the guy right? That battle with collection.
He knew. He knew immediately that he he
wasn't the one that that killed the guy.
Yep, exactly. He's like, he didn't kill him,
Dad. Yeah.
So that I think that kid has a role to play.
(26:50):
And I think that's going to be related to Ben losing his
powers, like it's shifting to his son.
And how you cultivate that, who knows?
Do you do you take the Sarah Beth approach of how she's been
brought in and bring this kid toSaint George and let him go
through the program? You know, get a keeper.
It seems like Ben is hesitant todo that.
(27:12):
Yeah. So I guess it must be I feel
like they were either referencedsome incident or you know,
something that they know about him that they're just weary
about having him use his powers to his full the full extent so
did. You think Ben was going to die?
No, I had AI had a feeling that he was going to die.
(27:35):
You know, I, I felt like they were trying, he was trying to
set it up that we, you know, we thought Ben was going to die,
but I never, I never really thought that he was going to
die. I don't know.
Yeah, I think they're setting upa change is going to come and I
and I left open the possibility that that change is been dying.
I see them dying in the next. I think he has to have a
(27:56):
showdown with Mambo Italia and that's, yeah, he saved Sani or
something. Some sort of Revenge of the Sith
type type battle. You know, I have the.
This was their first encounter. They they have to, you know,
encounter again. Yeah.
And you know, I thought it was super cool.
Like just like we said last timethat Maria Perez's recruiter was
(28:19):
a politician and in this one we have multiple politicians.
Yep, the Haitian president, the German guy, and.
The the Spanish guy. And Spanish guy?
Yep, Yep. Yeah.
So he, he's, he's at the UN. I think that needs to come to a
head cause we've heard hints that the dark side is in
(28:40):
multiple positions of power internationally on a
geopolitical scale. We've heard that was it the DNI
or or someone in our either defense or intelligence?
Department is on the line with the good side, yeah.
Aligned with the the shepherds instead of going on a Side Story
to a Caribbean island and and voodoo witches and priestesses.
I want like this world of the Shepherds to combined with a
(29:03):
traditional thriller, espionage,spy thriller.
So I want like the Shepherd's version of a congressional
hearing or a meeting at Langley or, you know, and maybe GAIL can
be that vehicle, maybe somethingwith her.
And the Shepherds has to bring them into the US government a
little bit tighter. I just think we need to see them
(29:24):
operating in, within or against the US government or other world
governments. I think we need a political
shepherd's book soon instead of the Side Story adventure.
Maybe that's another reason why I was, you know, a little let
down by this novel, because I thought that's I I thought as
soon as where we're going that they're they're putting hints in
(29:46):
it made all right, we got rid ofVictor.
Where are we going to go next? They obviously clearly like
thought of that angle by puttingthese politicians as being
members of the Dark Rising, but they just, you know, I don't
know. Didn't lean in.
It'll be very intriguing what they do with Mama and Talia.
(30:07):
And I think that's I'm still hooked.
I'm still, I still want to read the next novel.
Like, you know, even though I wasn't in love with this novel,
wasn't in love with half of the last one, I'm still into the
series and I I want to see wherethey go next.
They did enough to wet my whistle to be like, all right,
I'm intrigued. This book did enough, but from
(30:30):
the moment they opened with the vacation stuff and the team is
taking a break, I knew it was almost going to be a gap, almost
a filler. And it's not going to be a
straight up let's advance everything at Saint George,
let's advance everything at Trinity Loop.
Let's have some big plot that involves all of that coming
together. The second they said they're all
on vacation, I'm like up Side Story Jed, go off, do something.
(30:50):
Yeah, 'cause we, we didn't get any time at Trinity Loop, you
know, besides our little bit with Sarah Bath and and Corbin.
Like we're not spending, we're not seeing them interact during
class We're not, we're not getting into that.
We didn't get any of the team dynamic, like I said.
But we set up the special mission stuff, so now we know
that they're special missions unit.
(31:11):
It's like they're ready to go. I think we're ready to RIP, go
back to old time. And I think there's a lot of
promise in the series. And it ends with a kiss.
So GAIL is here to stay. I think that's going to add
another element. It's almost like what you wanted
Detective Perez to be, but she was dark, so you knew he can.
It can never happen. Well, now you get a chance to
see what they do with her movingforward.
(31:32):
I would say the series would be very much slipping for me if I
wasn't into GAIL and Jed. The fact that I'm OK with the
two of them together keeps me init like I want to.
I want to see where they go. The other thing that was kind of
cool is those knocks, that couple that they first run into,
who is going to help them? Who get brutally murdered?
(31:55):
Who get whacked early and in a crazy way.
And then the voodoo stuff with the the dove being nailed to the
ceiling and the snake in the bed.
There was just some wild strangestuff where.
If Jed's able to heal the dove, they didn't even talk about
that. Right, so Jed does have the
healing powers, but he couldn't save Johnny this time.
He. Couldn't save Johnny this time,
(32:16):
but he his powers are growing. I don't think he could heal the
dove if Ben weren't relinquishing his powers.
That'll be interesting to figureout.
I think Ben's starting to realize there's a shift that
needs to take place. Maybe if Mike Moore passes, Ben
has to move into more of that spiritual guidance role.
(32:40):
Or he can go hardcore into just the logistics.
You know, running this thing as a military op, a straight up
military op, even though I can'tdo the spiritual stuff.
So there's a lot of ways you cango.
I'm interested. I'm definitely interested, All
right. You want to get into the
scorecard. Plot and action.
Let's just put those two together.
What do you say? I think I'm going to go A7 and
(33:04):
A7. Yeah.
Maybe even like a the action. I think the action's A7,
action's A7 it's saved. Suspense.
It's saved by the suspense, the cemetery and I think that the
end scene at the dark rising. We didn't even talk about the
(33:28):
the action scene in Paris. Like this whole side mission
that's not even like, you know, Jed doesn't he have has no idea
what's going on where essentially.
Dark Rising. Yeah, essentially Ben takes them
into a a suicide mission, unbeknownst to him like that.
That's two instances. The first when he comes out and
(33:50):
they only lose 1 operator, but they lose way more operators
than the second one, so that's 2.
Second battle, yeah. 2 battles that he's now taking people in
that you could question his leadership ability for.
Yeah, because he's blinded by anger and hatred.
Anger. Yeah.
It's literally Star Wars. No, it is.
It is Joseph's Campbell, you know.
(34:13):
It all stories are the same, yeah.
You just put a different variety, different spice on
them. Yeah.
I think maybe it was 7 or 6. I was going to say 7 sounds
great for action slash suspense because the final battle of the
cemetery scene plot, though, I got to go lower.
The one thing preventing me fromgoing lower than six, so I'm I'm
7:00 and 6:00 as well, is that Ilike the school development.
(34:37):
I liked all the moments with thekids being groomed, with the
different adults at the school, like one who's like the
principal, Miss Whitlock or something.
Oh yeah, she was creepy. She was creepy.
She was tough as nails. And then there was that other
one who they kind of liked, and Sonny was like reading her mind
and she's. Like she actually had no idea
what the hell was going on. She just was a good person, good
(34:57):
teacher, no idea what's going on, wanting to help the kids,
but she's like, oh, this is strange.
And this yeah, like I, I miss Harper.
I think I I liked everything at the school and the kidnapping
stuff was OK. So that keeps me out of 6 for
the plot. The voodoo stuff.
I'd probably go lower on some ofthe the way Mambo Talley isn't.
(35:19):
She is the villain, but Calypso's the villain and I
don't know exactly who Calypso is.
Calypso has weird powers too of.She's like infiltrate dreams.
She's like, I'm going to come toJed tonight and it will be fun.
She was creepy with her little like very loose.
Serpentine and yeah, yeah, there's a.
Monster. There's multiple times where Jed
(35:40):
has that dream where he's on thebeach.
Yep, and he can't move. And she's the monster.
And she's the monster that comesout and like, but in actuality,
she's there in real life, like suffocating him like that.
That was super crew. But I think that's another thing
that like brings up suspense andaction.
Like what? Why it justifies the seven there
because some of the certain nuances with these characters.
(36:01):
Very interesting. Yeah, it might do that, but it
also to me hurts the plot a little bit because I just don't
know exactly how it fit in. Just Mambo Italia is like
lackey. Yeah, I don't know.
I didn't get the role for Calypso exactly.
No. Just a henchman.
Yeah. Part big bad, part henchman.
(36:23):
That and the the other henchman who could see Sarah Beth.
Vegan Vegan. Veto vegan.
Yeah. Didn't do much for me.
It wasn't explained why he can sense her in the projection.
I assume that because he was a. I'm guessing he's like is he the
original Dark watcher like he and then he's risen the ranks.
(36:47):
Of he's like a Ben, he has the power like a Ben on that side.
Or he was the Sarah Bath at one point.
I don't know. They didn't do enough to like.
Maybe Corbin. He's he's like a Corbin on
there. Yeah, they didn't do enough to
fully explain that though. And even though they they always
mentioned that he could get them, he never actually did.
Like that would have been more creepy and intense if like he
(37:09):
could touch them in the projection and like cause pain
that way. We came close a few times.
You came close, but we never confirmed.
I think if that if that gap would have been bridged and that
happened, I think it would have upped the stakes a lot, yeah.
Because now they're no longer safe.
Yeah, and I would have been OK with that and, and trying to
figure out why they're no longersafe.
(37:29):
And it's because of what they'redoing at the school.
What Veden can do is what they're trying to change the
zombie children to do. That would have been cool.
So let's just go to bad guys then, because all this, yeah, is
bad guys talk. They all individually have cool
traits. I don't think they all work that
well as a interrelated cast. I think I have to go 3.
(37:52):
Yeah, I was. I was going to say this XX but
I'm going. To go 3.
You know, I, I guess I'm raisingit up from that 2 1/2 because I
the potential promise that we could get with Mambo Talia and
the idea of an ecalipso, the idea of a of Eden are
intriguing. The idea of this, you know,
(38:12):
we're seeing more and more of the dark players of the world.
You know, now that we we no longer have Victor, getting to
see the Victor's like Dark Rising was kind of cool.
Like in the service Leia flashback back to the day.
So what are you bought? In Yeah.
(38:33):
Are you bought into all this? No, but I'm not like that's the
problem. Yeah, the same way plot went
down. I don't think I can go higher
than A2. Yeah, yeah.
The problem is I'm bought. I'm bought into like the series
because I want to see how it goes, but into this novel, into
what they're trying to sell me for this book, I was taken out
(38:58):
of it. Yep, I agree.
And this one off exploratory plot, not having all of our
members, you know, bringing in other elements.
I just wasn't bought it. Took me out.
Yeah, this is the worst stand alone book you could ever read.
If if someone picks this book upwithout knowing the shepherds,
(39:21):
that's a mistake. Like, Oh yeah.
You're just, you're confused. I don't know what you would
think. Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah. You would have no idea and power
to them though, because. They had to do something
different. Well, they had to do something
different, but I think a lot of authors try to play that game of
like, we're not only writing to our hardcore fans, we're writing
to somebody who just sees our book in the bookstore and wants
(39:44):
it. I I think Andrews and Wilson
realize they're not they're not the like household name of like
you see them in Barnes and Noble.
You see them at the airport, yousee them at the CVSI don't think
they need they they don't need that.
Their thing is like right in volume and right for the people
we're writing for. Like they have a niche audience
and they cater to them. So I think the fact that they
(40:06):
just kept going in the series without needing to do a whole
book which re establishes everything, which is to like
didactic and teachy and preachy about who the watchers are and
explaining their gifts and goingback to phase one.
They didn't do that. They just wrote a book for the
series and kept it moving. So I would say power to them on
that. They weren't trying to, you
know, bring in new people and captivate new people.
(40:27):
It's like we know who we're writing for.
Our Shepherd's audience is all in.
Let's give them an adventure. But it's still A2 all.
Right. What about good guys, Mike?
I think, I think this is where it shines.
We said the good guys are each showing a different side of
themselves. Unfortunately for a lot of them,
that's a a bad side of themselves.
(40:47):
But I think that should have been named.
I think there were so many hintsthat Ben is driven by anger,
David is driven. By I wanted them to explain
what's going on. And that's the point of these
networks. The watchers have their keepers.
The operators have their TSL. Why aren't they talking to each
other and saying, hey, yeah, I have.
I just had this feeling. Well, oh, that's 'cause it like,
(41:10):
you know, we need to, you know, because David even had that a
little bit in the last novel, you know, like he's, he's,
that's been bubbling up. It needs to be addressed.
If it's not addressed early in the next book, I might get
upset, you know? I, I think it maybe it's a
(41:31):
learning moment. I think it there needs to be
stakes and consequences for eachcharacter realizing they have
these hang ups or they're makingthese mistakes.
And I think they just need to realize they need each other.
And and you, you have to be a team and you have to be honest
and you have to have lines of communication because we're sold
on the TS LS are vital. Pastor D Sarah Beth talking to
(41:52):
Pastor D even in this one, takesa weight off her shoulder.
And she's worried about being inin the watcher room, the white
room, too much. And she's worried about studying
for her exams. And, you know, everyone still
scarred from the big battle whenshe sits down, talks to Pastor
D, It's so powerful. I think everybody involved needs
to realize that. Name it.
(42:14):
And we've got to see more open lines of communication as their
only way to be successful and the only way to fix themselves.
And I think we have to look inside in the next book.
I think a lot of the next book has to be people sharing heart
to heart, everyone on the team needing to open up to each other
or else mistakes continue to getmade that have deadly
(42:34):
consequences. Yeah.
So I like what the good guys aredoing here.
I see some, you know, cracks in the wall and I think that's a
good thing ultimately for everyone to have to learn from.
So I'm going to go for and go, guys.
I'm going to make up some groundhere.
All right, I'll see you what you're for.
That's what we're pretty. We're pretty lock step on this
one. It's a little high.
I I think if three 3 1/2 could be valid, but and GAIL I I buy
(42:58):
into GAIL. Yeah, I know.
I think GAIL. Is enough.
I think like that that's that's got to be like the the edging
thing is, is GAIL and her shiny moments in this novel.
Yeah. And then those knocks, great
characters, even though they were whacked, it's like that was
a great little side character. And sunny level character.
Sunny. Sunny.
Grandma. You know, grandma, like, like
(43:19):
just these other little minor characters that we we get and
are exposed to for sure. Yep, setting.
You, how did you feel about going to the Dr. Haiti, being
down there pretty much the entire time?
We go a little time in Paris, you know.
Yeah, the way the border was described was actually pretty
(43:42):
good. We do a whole lesson actually on
the split between Dr. in Haiti and what not.
Yeah, the little towns crossing the border, the school good, not
great as there's nothing that stands out.
It's it's not like I felt the island vibes like it's not like
I hear the steel drum, you know,I'm drinking coconut water.
(44:02):
I, I wasn't that immersed in it,but I was immersed enough to
know the local lay of the land. Even Jed doing the sightseeing
and and Santa Domingo. And it's OK.
The the two most memorable settings almost have nothing to
do with that whole island Dominican Haitian vibe.
It's just a cemetery, which was I pictured in my mind with the
(44:24):
the 2 dark ones sitting in that car, Sure.
Watching the grave. And then the final house, the
final palace, what was it? Palace of Lost Souls?
Those two stand out. Besides that, not much.
So I'm going to go with three. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm
going to go a little bit higher than that.
I think I'm going to 3 1/2 because I think I liked the
(44:47):
Paris catacombs. Like the description of that
with the, you know, the originaldark rising and then, and then
going into, you know, the, the first dark, you know, the sort
of the interrupted dark rising. And I, I actually felt like, you
know, not that I've ever been toHaiti, but I did do a project on
Haiti in high school. And, you know, understanding
(45:10):
this whole, this island, which, you know, very crazy history
and, and the border and, you know, sort of understanding
those, you know, having these two people where one speaks
French, one speaks Spanish and like just the, the mix of the
culture there. I thought that they did a decent
job of, of, of bringing that in.So I'm I'm going to go a little
(45:30):
bit higher. I think that's fair, yeah.
Yeah, I think that's totally fair, unfortunately.
Cover. Man, I would be too fair.
No, not at all. All right.
Worst cover in the series. Worst cover in the series?
By far. Worst cover we cover on the
podcast. Quite possibly not.
(45:52):
Possibly no. Possibly that is you.
You're smoking one man. We've seen way worse covers.
There's no power lines first of all.
Power lines would make it better.
Extreme might make this better. You got GAIL in the mix.
You got a Jedediah. I think he's a little skinny for
(46:14):
for Jedediah. Maybe he'll leave a little short
for Jedediah. But I'm just, I'm just like,
where are they? Where are they running through
the streets of, you know, the capital of what's the capital of
Santo Domingo? Santo Domingo?
(46:34):
Like, are they at the palace? No, it looks like they're in the
city somewhere. So it.
Looks like they're on the city street cobblestones.
No, they, if they, the two of them, were actually in Paris,
this scene, you know, like running up to try to find the
Dark rising, This would make sense.
(46:57):
Yeah, but that was not the. Only problem is they're not on
that team. They were gallivanting around
Dr. in Haiti. They they had a couple long
drives going out the. Jungle not in cities.
Yeah, or, or out in that house in the middle.
Or the farm, The house. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, this makes no sense to me.I'm just going to be honest.
GAIL doesn't even meet, doesn't even meet up with him until he's
(47:19):
in prison. So she gets him out of prison?
Yeah. The two of them are never
actually like he is the only onethat's walking through the city.
He's like, you know, one time he's he's running from running
to try to catch that dark one. Because the kidnapper, the
kidnapper, the kid. Fighting Calypso.
She's Gail's not anywhere to be seen for that.
(47:39):
You need a cemetery bro. I I'm sorry I I need a cemetery
on the cover. That scene was so cool.
Sarah Beth projecting and telling him how to go and how to
find the grave, then digging himup and David with.
The I would even take him like alike a crazy palace in in the
Caribbean, you know, like some sort of estate from a, from a
high. A big wide open estate drone
(48:00):
shop. Yes, I am not not a cobblestone
European looking city. Or lean into the voodoo.
Right, you can do some of the voodoo.
Symbols like have some voodoo symbols have a voodoo doll or
like you know, something like that we.
Just talk about the purple as well.
Purple doesn't work. I guess because they're going
(48:22):
for like the whole spooky vibe. Purple don't work.
I could have taken like an oceanblue, like a Caribbean blue like
on the Barbados flag or something, you know, like that,
that kind of blue. But.
All right, So what are you giving it?
Man, I might have to go 1. Yeah, 1 for sure.
(48:44):
This is where not having multiple covers you know can
hurt. Yeah, an alternate one maybe
could have brought it up a pointor two or but.
Yeah. I'm just, I'm just not too happy
with it. And GAIL, terrible silhouette
outline running away from some sparks randomly appearing on
cobblestones. No thank you.
(49:05):
Gail's shape is so weird too. I don't.
All right, well, what's your free space, my dude?
It looks like something from West Side Story A.
Little bit, a little bit. They're running away from the
The Jets, the Sharks, I. Don't know man, I've said it
(49:28):
over and over. I like the cemetery scene.
I just think it's well written. It was it to me was the peak of
suspense. I know the final battle was
supposed to be it, but the most I was bought into this book was
the cemetery, seen him buried alive, and I knew David had a
role to play and I would. There we go between the cemetery
(49:50):
scene, but also David's arc in this book, coming around,
realizing he has a role to play,realizing he has value to Jed,
to the team, into the mission. I think that was sorely needed
and it's satisfied. What's a good one?
Yeah, to me, it's it's got to bethe the dark watchers and and
(50:10):
and particularly sunny like in her interactions with with Jed,
her interactions with with SarahBeth and I, I just I have a
feeling that she's going to be amajor player to come in the next
couple books. I agree.
You know, I think, I think she has the power to be like a
(50:30):
Corbin, to be like a Sarah Beth.So I'm Sarah Beth.
Is the Corbin to her? Sure.
Like I'm I'm super intrigued by what she can and and will do to
me. Like she's my freest base so.
I'm with you, Perfect. I do have a Limerick which goes
(50:51):
to some of our points that we discussed here tonight.
As Calypso comes on hot and heavy.
Jed nearly dies and was buried, but grabbing the shovel, David
ends the tussle, though Ben Morvan seems quite wary.
You running buried with heavy A.Little bit of a stretch.
(51:13):
Yeah. I I think something with the
pronunciation was supposed to make it rhyme better and I
didn't pull it off just. Like this book?
We'll we'll give you an A for effort, an A for thank you.
Appreciate that. Yeah, one out of five.
All right, well. Start scoring the limericks.
Now we definitely have our lowest score of the series.
Last book we were 31 or 35. This one we're a 31 and a 31.5.
(51:37):
I would say like it. It's not quite 20s territory.
No, no, low low 30s is where it.Should Yeah, so.
The scorecard works the scorecard.
Lives. Yeah.
Doesn't lie. Scorecard doesn't lie.
All right, well, yeah, we have alike I said at the top, we have
a lot coming for you guys. Brad Thor, Kyle Mills fade in
(51:57):
edge of Honor essay Cosby probably going to throw in some
Eric Bishop into there. Let me just pull up our reading
list. Sons of Valor 4.
We have a new atron, Brad Elder.He's a bona fide author.
We'll be covering his book Recoil of Justice.
So God, God, we, we want to get into nuclear war.
(52:22):
Steve Berry, terminalist the show, Dan Brown We, we have a
lot. We have a lot, but we have the
summer. It's summertime, baby.
Happy, happy belated Father's Day to you, Mike.
Thank you Sir, yourself as well.Congrats on being a new father.
Not to another child, not to another chicken, but this time
to a puppy. Yeah, I did it Got a puppy you.
(52:44):
Were forced to do it. I was forced to do it.
I'm an idiot, you know. What's another sleepless night?
It's all good. Happy Father's Day is a little
bladed. But to all the fathers out
there, all the fathers that are patrons, Oh, we didn't even
mention we had a fantastic, probably one of our best patron
(53:05):
Hangouts last week, talking about a little bit of the 7th
floor, mainly talking about other stuff.
So you know if you want to be a part of our ever growing
dialogue of our patrons. Bunch of nerds talking about
thrillers. The Thriller Pod Book Club.
Go to our website. Yeah, Patreon tab.
(53:28):
Patreon tab Patreon. Page.
You get access to. I think I called it the book
club tab. It's like the book club tab.
Get access to Probably the best thing on earth is our WhatsApp.
Group chat. Group as well as our monthly
more quarterly Hangouts. Mike even had his first meet up
last year. So we want to do we have we have
(53:50):
a big plans coming forward for this group.
We've been ever evolving couldn't do it without you guys.
So before we get out of there, out of here, need to thank our
patrons, Deputy Director Sherry F and Brad, Special Agents Ben,
Darrell, Kevin, George, Matt, Don, Peggy, Chris and Mark.
(54:14):
Yeah, we'll take us out of here.Mike.
Just like Gale be Gale. There we go, Love it.
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
And welcome back to this week's No Limits the Thriller podcast.
How you doing today, Mike? I am doing great.
One more day of school left before we're out for summer and
I'm going to have a lot of reading to do this summer.
Chris, I'm sure you will as well.
(00:40):
Oh my God, we were just going upbefore the meeting.
We were going over our reading list for July, and I haven't
read an actual book in a long time.
I'm used to listening to these books and I got to actually
read. But at least it's authors I
love. I'm excited.
So we got a new Brad Thor novel coming out.
(01:01):
More importantly, I mean I shouldn't say more importantly,
but more intriguingly, we got a new Kyle Mills book coming out
that's not a mid trap book. Fade in.
I believe you just booked back-to-back interviews.
We haven't interviewed a person on the spot in a long time.
Good to get back to the interviews.
Yeah, we got Kyle and Brad linedup coming soon to you guys with
(01:24):
their new releases. So yeah, a lot of reading, a lot
of interviewing, a lot of podcasting on the docket.
Yes, so we you know, we're just keeping it rolling here.
We got it. We got a we had to push back SA
Kazi's book. Not that we're not intrigued for
it, but just things pop up. We're going to get to it.
We have a jam packed July jam packed really summer for you.
(01:48):
But before we get to that, we have to finish this series, Dark
Rising. And I was disappointed.
I'm just going to come out and say it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Do you think you're just darked out doing all four books back
to? Back I wonder, I wonder.
(02:08):
I wonder if that plays a role. Sometimes I wonder that but like
I was so high coming off of books 1 and 2.
Yes. And then, you know, last book we
we had our critiques. We weren't like super low on it,
but we definitely was the lowestof the three.
But I guess I was ready for thisrefresh and knowing that we were
(02:29):
going to get that we did. We did get that.
It's very interesting to see howthey took this book.
There's a lot of things I want to talk to you about.
You know, the fact that our our heroes are maybe corrupted.
That was super intriguing. Something we we have not
explored yet to date. For sure.
(02:51):
The the big bad, like we there was a this this book had a a
dark right? Like the the the titular event
happens and it's a crazy ass scene but everyone dies.
Yeah, we needed the post Victor era.
We needed something to usher in what happens next.
(03:14):
And the idea of a dark rising, it is just a perfect vehicle for
that, a ceremony, a ritual by which the next dark Prince is
appointed. Right?
But I think it was a cool like most things in this book, I was
a very happy with the concepts and the ideas.
Something in the execution fallsoff.
Something in the buy into all ofit falls off.
(03:36):
It like should work in principle, but just didn't sit
right as I was reading it. So you have the Dark Rising,
like who's going to be the next Victor?
I just don't buy into this cast of villains.
And we almost get too wide of a cast of villains because the
next Victor appointed in the Dark Rising is not even a
character in the stories. He's in like 2 chapters.
(03:58):
It's a random guy who is actually going to be manipulated
and used by Mambo Italia who is supposed to be the big bad but
not really sure how I feel abouther.
And then it's like she has this sidekick Calypso, who actually
is the big bad of. Of this book the.
Plot of the book of the Shepherds, right, She's the one
actually interacting with the shepherds.
(04:20):
So it's like we have a big bad and a sidekick, but the sidekick
is actually the big bad to the characters we like and we want
to see she has her own weird qualities.
So I think we're going to have to dig into these villains,
which is a strange thing. But on the flip side are good
guys. We're seeing kind of chinks in
the armor. We're seeing some cracks,
whether it's Ben Morvant, we're learning his powers seem to be
(04:42):
receding, which maybe it it either is naturally happening as
he's he ages. Or like a watcher.
Like like what happens with the Watchers.
It's almost a miracle that he still has these powers.
Or is it his own doubt? You know, his own self
transformation going down a slippery slope in a dark path
that that's the reason he's losing the powers?
Is it chicken or the egg? And there's a little subtle hint
(05:05):
of Sarah Beth not outright lying, but she says to her mom,
she promises not to project backinto the house for that final
battle. And she's crossing her fingers.
So she promises to her mom. She's crossing her fingers
behind her back. She doesn't really mean to honor
that promise. Our heroes are cracking like
they're not the perfect angels they've almost been set up to
(05:26):
be. There's a there's a couple
little signals that Ben and Sarah Beth, two of the most pure
characters, might have some foibles and then some, you know,
some issues in their mind behindthe scenes and.
Even David. Even David, David is getting a
little jealous that's coming through.
I think that's a very interesting take to actually
(05:47):
show the shepherds have some cracks.
Yeah, no. A lot of things I want to dive
into. I think ultimately, you know,
Jed is our rock, our center. We are with him majority of this
novel and while I did like, you know, him sort of this is funny
(06:09):
like he has to go on a vacation but he he really can't.
He can't. Yeah, he can't take a vacation.
I'm. Sure, a lot of operators and
service members can identify. Law enforcement that that kind
of stuff was was interesting I II kind of bought into this idea
of him. You know getting with GAIL.
Maybe it was a little fast, but like, you know, obviously
they're they're quick friends. They she was established in the
(06:31):
last book. Going forward, it makes sense
that she would continue to be the liaison.
And, you know, there's some sortof tension between them.
You know, now that we've gotten rid of Maria, you know, we need
to bring in a love interest for Jed.
I think, and maybe you can disagree.
I think the biggest downfall of this book is not having the
(06:56):
team. Yeah, Joshua Bravo.
Joshua Bravo, present until the umpteenth hour.
The final action. Scene and even then we barely
get them. I mean, the, The thing is
though, I know that that will have a scene.
They come in huge, they come in hot and heavy for one final
(07:18):
battle. But we, I, I want to explore
their characters. I want to explore their
interactions, their dynamics, and if they just operate
together and don't do anything else except for downrange.
We're not getting their full breath, their full characters.
And that was a deliberate choice.
I remember early on in the book the vacation stuff was being
talked about and Ben was tellingJed, look, you know, Nisha's
(07:40):
here, Bex is here, everyone's gone, you have to go to forced
vacation. I was like, I knew that he was
setting it up like the the we'renot going to be with the team.
It was very intentional. Yeah, I think that's what took
me out of the book. I love their dynamic and we're
building towards this, this crescendo with this last book.
And then you immediately like, strip that away.
(08:02):
I don't know. And and even when we did get
them, we didn't get the full extent of them.
Like we didn't get the full Eli.No, Eli's got to.
He's got to have an arc here soon like he really does.
We saved Johnny in the last bookjust to kill him just to kill
him in this book. Should have been done last book
you could have got you could. That was a we we talked about
that. That was a great like arc for
(08:25):
him to die in the last book if. He fell in the Battle of Saint
George's. That would have meant so much.
It would have I feel like it would have could have brought
the team together and then it would have given space in this
book for an Eli, a Jung, becauseJung has his moment.
I thought the end. The only one out of the group is
Jung. Jung has his moment with that
fight at the end. I love it.
(08:46):
What? It's almost like an Avengers
scene, taking down pianos when the the three of them corner him
or triangulate him, and it's like Ben's here getting off his
feet after being choked out. Jed's over here with his knife
fully out. Yoon is just thrown to the wall,
but he's back in the game. And now they corner the one who
just became the new victor, and they're just like stabbing him
(09:09):
over and over in this massive battle.
I thought that was such a cool scene, but that and the cemetery
scene, if you did not have thosetwo set action pieces or the
cemetery is more of a suspense scene, but.
Where Jed is buried alive. When it where he's buried alive.
I didn't like this book at all. Outside of those things, we also
(09:29):
have to talk about the voodoo ofit all.
Yeah, that, that was very interesting to me.
Yeah, to bring that in, said it in Haiti to Haiti, you know,
have this, you know, sort of, you know, sort of outside a
religion type thing. I don't know, I feel like this
is something that Andrews and Wilson, you know, they read
(09:52):
about and then they're like, oh,that's a cool idea, we should
incorporate it into the book. But yet for me it didn't didn't
quite fully fit. Yeah.
I I will reserve judgement on Mambo Italia until we see her
art play out. 'Cause she got away, 'cause she
got away. You know, like, I mean the the
(10:14):
whole Dark Watchers thing is very intriguing to me.
Awesome. I wanted them to play up.
I was expecting that to play a bigger role.
Same in this book and it did not.
And they did say though, like it's an experimental program.
So I, I think there's more to bedone with the fact that they
took Sonny as one of the most powerful.
She's almost like the Sarah Bethwho the dark side has and wants
(10:35):
to corrupt. So I really like I said, I love
the concepts. I don't know if they're executed
well. I really like the school.
I, I, I think a school where you've kidnapped kids, you're
basically tricking them into thinking you're their savior by
giving them nice things out. You would never have a room like
this. You would never eat like this.
(10:56):
There's all this ice cream and Sonny's friend Amadei, I think
it was the boy he he falling to their into their trap shows how
alluring this is and how easy itwill be for them to attract
other children to their cause. Here's the problem.
I love the idea of dark watchersand a dark school to foil St.
(11:19):
George's and to interrupt the Shepherd's operations.
But what I did not like was the zombie bullshit.
So like you didn't need to add that element when just having
the school manipulating these kids through materialism was
such a a really neat idea and cool concept.
I don't know if the zombie thingreally one added anything 2 Made
(11:43):
sense to me at all. It just was an eye roll moment.
And three, I think there were would be other creative ways you
can get the kids to do your bidding for the dark side
without having to do some esoteric zombie nonsense.
Now they were trying to match itwith the voodoo stuff.
I did that. Because of the setting and you
know, like, I get that to me almost the the way the zombie
(12:04):
stuff was reading to me is that it's all like a it's all a ruse.
You know, like you, you purposely put someone under, you
bury them alive, then you bring them back from the dead and you
sort of like lie to them and through this post traumatic
stress disorder of them being buried alive and Ding that they
died. They're brainwashed.
(12:24):
They're brainwashed into being your servant.
So like that's how I thought it.And like, wait, are so are these
three kids? Are they like that or is, is
voodoo actually real? Like it wasn't clearly
explained. Like those 3 little stooges that
you know, are are are pour the tea and you know that sure, if
(12:45):
you were to do this visually in like a movie setting like that
would be super creepy and you know, a key element, but it that
that part of it just wasn't explained well enough and not
not needed, you know, like they.Have them just be possessed.
Yeah, they have. Demon spirits in them the same
way Victor and all the Dark Oneshave these.
(13:06):
You already you already have just just asking a lot of me to
like buy into that. And then like you want to add in
this other thing. You know, I've already I've
already sort of like I've committed to that one.
I've committed to this series like so just adding something
else on top of it just to add itlike is is not necessary.
Imagine if instead of the zombiestuff with whatever the
(13:26):
concoction was that they make them breathe and knock them out
and all and then bury them and resurrect them.
Just honestly be like, we're taking the spirits of demon
children like dead children. Like maybe from the school or
otherwise. And the same way Victor and the
other dark ones have that burning glow in their eyes,
they're doing that with childrenand they can control the
(13:48):
children. And that to me is even more
scary. And it's in universe, it's
established, it's not yet another thing you have to add.
Yeah, and it what I thought was super intriguing is right.
They they even mentioned that they're able to Co opt these
kids and use their powers for like a very short time.
But it's almost because they're a gift from God.
Like God quickly, like realizes that, you know, these powers
(14:10):
that get and then he has they, they fade super quickly.
So it's like it's a time bomb. And I, I like the fact that
they're right. Like you, you have, you could
have had like these, I don't know, maybe not most powerful
demons, but like lesser demons. They're the ones that go into
these kids. They're able to take over their
powers, but they can only hold on to it, you know, only mask
their intentions from God, the higher power who gives them
(14:32):
these gifts for so long. And then as soon as that gone
and then they have to leave the body and the the kid is no
longer useful. I knew as soon as they were
taking those kids on the bus andlike Sonny was like able to like
communicate. You know, you immediately got
like, like someone's figured outhow to how to make dark watchers
and that that's a great concept.I, I like you said, we keep
(14:55):
coming back to it. A lot of good points, a lot of
good ideas in this novel. Just I think the execution just
didn't didn't do. It we're already being asked
like you said to take so many leaps and the faithful audience
and you heard us love on the first three books or first 2.4
(15:17):
books yeah 2 1/2 books love on it.
We've already committed. Don't try to now extend us into
believing all these other thingsthat we have to buy into.
Let's and just to put another point on the voodoo, they, they
at least did the due diligence of like explaining it because
there is a country there. There is a compelling factor of
(15:40):
these actually are somewhat rooted in Christian tradition.
It's just that due to human fallibility of like literally
transporting people out of theirhomeland homeland and kidnapping
them into slavery for generations, those traditions
were ripped from people. Well, how are the people going
to continue their traditions, you know, while enslaved, while
(16:02):
you have to combine it with the Christian tradition?
So you get this blend of cultures that was almost forced.
And so there's a lot of good in the traditions because it is
Christian based. But then there's a lot and it
is, you know, based on true African beliefs.
But then you get the weirdness because of it has to be kept
underground. It has to be hidden.
And so like, there's the good and the bad in it.
(16:23):
Like I think voodoo became a term in the West that basically
means evil magic spells. And it's not that at all.
It's actually the face of a people trying to combine African
heritage with like Christian Saints, for example, a lot of
their little statues figurines are the Christian Saints, but
they, they had this mystical element to them based on animism
(16:43):
and other roots. And I think they, they broke
that down and then they also gotinto like the differences, you
know, like Cuban Santeria is somewhat related and Condomble
in Brazil is somewhat related. And there's a different version,
the Dominican one and then the Haitian 1.
So they, there's no doubt they did their research, they had the
(17:03):
historical facts, but just don'tknow if that was where I wanted
to see the whole idea of shepherds and dark ones go.
Although I guess that's what Mambo Italia is doing, is she is
using those voodoo skills to almost infiltrate and take over
the dark ones. Sure, because she didn't want to
just play along with how the dark ones have always done
(17:24):
business. She wanted to do it her way.
And because she's a female, she she can't play the normal.
She can't do it the normal way. But in voodoo traditions, there
are priestesses. That's the.
Model exactly. Exactly.
It's just, it's no doubt they did their research, it just
didn't work for me. Yeah, I, I don't know, it's all
right. So if that didn't work for us,
(17:49):
let let's let's try to focus on some things that did work for us
and then then we can get into the scorecard because there are
some things that I did like about this book.
Sure, I agree. I think my single favorite thing
I liked was, you know, seeing I,I feel like we did get a a
(18:09):
deeper dive into Jed and you youmentioned like this idea of we
need to know more about the TS LS.
Yeah, OK. Yep, David.
I thought like that that was almost addressed to me.
You like OK, they they were listening to our pod even though
like they weren't where they wrote this way before we even
did this pod, but like. They knew it was time.
They they, they could tell like,all right, we've established who
(18:33):
these kind of characters are andwe, we need to play on them a
little more. And immediately David has to
play a role. And then I thought it was super
intriguing to bring in this likeinfallibility with David, with,
you know, him, his jealousy, hisrage, almost like you can see
like all right in everyone, no matter who you are, whether
(18:54):
you're a shepherd, normal person, not you can be
susceptible to demons. And so I, I, I, I loved all that
same thing with Ben, you know, like the with him and the rage
at the end, his anger, his, his revenge.
Like I, I would question that hegot most of those people killed
(19:17):
in that final scene because of the inner demons.
And I, I, I, I'm almost positivewe're going to, we're going to
reflect on that in the beginningof the next book.
We have to. Ben.
Something's happening with Ben. We not only lose Johnny, but we
lose Carl. Yeah.
Yeah. Multiple people are injured.
(19:39):
Like it it it that last battle insane.
I also say like that's the otherthing.
That last battle was amazing. Like it was wild, like written
very well. I I had to go back and listen to
it multiple times because we're cutting back from Sarah Beth's
projections and then then going back and rewinding and seeing
(20:01):
the same thing from Jed side or seeing the same thing from a
demon side or seeing the same thing from Ben's side.
Like, you know, literally we're,we're experiencing what?
Like 10 minutes worth of a battle, but over the course of
two hours, yeah, like 2 hours oflike of audio book time.
(20:22):
Like it's insane. I was peeking at the cemetery
scene, which comes just after the halfway point, and when that
wrapped up and they saved Jed and David was the hero, I was
like, what? What else are they going to?
Do I know right? Where are they going to go with
this? And then to come out with that
final scene, I was like, OK, I can enjoy the rest of my time
(20:42):
now because I wasn't sure what was going to fill that space.
And and they filled it with a epic, epic battle.
Not as good as the Saint George's battle.
Not as good, but still very. Powerful, but still very
powerful one. And then I like how the the
girls came together when the Sarah Beth and Corbin
projections found the watchers, the children hiding in the guest
house. And so they projected over there
(21:04):
and were able to communicate with Sonny.
I think that added a little moredrama that, you know, when Mambo
Italia escaped with Sonny, we saw that play out.
So yeah, I like that. I like that.
I do want to go back to the TSL point.
I I was very happy, really happywhen early on he's still in
Santo Domingo, so still the Dominican Republic.
(21:27):
And he just it's probably beforehe got arrested, but the woman
came up to him and said, help mefind my child, help me find my
child. And he's he he's like, I don't
know how I can help. What can I possibly do?
But he promises this lady, I'll keep my eyes peeled.
And he and he calls David. I that meant so much to David
and it meant so much to me as the reader felt validated, like
(21:49):
TS LS need to play a role. Jed's out here out of his
element, supposed to be on vacation, relaxing.
He can't get this thing out of his mind.
He thinks it sounds like, you know, he was placed there by
divine intervention. The woman was told to go to this
cathedral. He was like, oh, I have some
free time. Let me go walk and see the
sights. Like he knew.
(22:10):
And maybe that's what we all need to tune into, right?
These things that happen in our life.
So we just write off as a coincidence or we're too busy on
our phones or we're too busy with media.
We don't even notice these moments, these human
interactions, which maybe are taking place for a reason, for a
purpose, and we all just write it off, come up with 1,000,000
reasons or too distracted to care.
Well, that's what makes Watchersand shepherds different is that
(22:31):
they're attuned to those things.And maybe we all can learn from
that. And because he was attuned into
it, he just didn't even intentionally do it.
He just naturally called David. Like, I don't think it was like
a choice of like, I'm going to report this to my TSL.
It was just like I got to talk to somebody and even tells
David. He's like, I just felt the need
to talk to somebody. And so why not talk to you as a
(22:51):
spiritual guide for me. And David's like it really means
a lot that that you called me. So their relationship is helped
by this. David is finding purpose after
questioning his purpose, lettinghis daughter nearly get killed
twice. Yeah, I think David need to be
brought in. And that phone call showed me,
Dang, a guy like Jed operating without a David doesn't have
(23:12):
that spiritual guide, doesn't have that body to lean on,
doesn't have someone someone to to talk to and and question and
ask things and get advice from is lost.
And that was perfectly done. Then it came full circle when
David had the shovel killed the dark 1.
He felt powerless. He's like, Jed's going to die.
Sarah Beth is here watching withthe projection.
(23:33):
She's like, he's like, I got I can't do anything.
I'm helpless. Oh, Jed gave his life
essentially to save David and Nail.
Well, the reason he's there is to save David Gal, Yeah.
Yeah, and Jed, like, sacrificed himself.
So David's like, I'm just a worthless piece of nothing.
I am totally worthless. Jed's the hero.
He sacrificed himself again. And now I got away and I'm safe.
(23:58):
He needed to do something. And I thought the cemetery scene
was just a perfect way to save the day.
And he he fought a dark one. We can say he fought and
defeated a Dark One with that shovel.
I immediately thought of you when, when we're going through
that scene of, of Jed calling, calling David.
And like, I loved it, you know, like I was like, ah, like, yes,
(24:19):
Martini got what he wanted. And like, you know, I did too,
like, because I agreed with you in the sense that the, the,
these, we've established these roles for these people and they
need to be utilized more. You know, I think, like I said,
we, we saw a lot more of introspection from Jed and he's
still like trying to explore hispowers, you know, is it that
(24:43):
like, and I was wondering this, as Ben's powers are receding,
are, are Jed's powers rising? Is it, is it is it can, can
these powers only coexist in oneshepherd?
Like, you know, like Jed will bethe replacement for Ben.
And that's the, that's what we are, are grooming him for, you
know, 'cause he's not a watcher.He's not, he's obviously an
(25:05):
operator, but he, he's like, he's the best of both worlds.
He's an healer, He's a, he's a communicator.
He can. He can do a lot of different
things. And that builds off last book
when Ben was so shocked and everybody was shocked that Jed
sees the dark Ones, they expose themselves to him.
And the conversation with Rachelof, like, you actually saw, you
know, the demon leave Kenny's body that night.
(25:28):
And, like, he and Rachel were the only ones who saw it.
So he's got the. Yeah.
I wonder. It's something like the
midichlorians, right? He's got more midichlorians than
everyone else. Or, or there's a prophecy of the
chosen 1. And I like this idea of Ben
giving it to Jed. And that's why Ben is kind of
regressing, if you will. The other question about Ben is
(25:48):
his son, his wife and son. Oh yeah, his two kids, but
primarily his son with the, witha lot of these gifts comes up.
That's got to be a plant, right?That that's that's a seed.
Well, for sure, because the multiple times that they bring
it up that like there was some something happened because of
his powers, like his powers are so strong.
(26:09):
You know, it's almost like, likeit's been done before.
And and you know, whether it's X-Men or, you know, some sort of
stories that like you, you've had to protect this kid from his
powers. Like he, he, they, they don't
even let him go to Saint George's.
Like exactly. Yep.
But he's the first person to come in and say something like
(26:30):
Jed is is missing or like Jed is.
I think Ben gets off the phone with Jed in prison and Ben is
thinking like I hope. There's, oh, he's like, he
didn't do it. He didn't.
He didn't kill the guy right? That battle with collection.
He knew. He knew immediately that he he
wasn't the one that that killed the guy.
Yep, exactly. He's like, he didn't kill him,
Dad. Yeah.
So that I think that kid has a role to play.
(26:50):
And I think that's going to be related to Ben losing his
powers, like it's shifting to his son.
And how you cultivate that, who knows?
Do you do you take the Sarah Beth approach of how she's been
brought in and bring this kid toSaint George and let him go
through the program? You know, get a keeper.
It seems like Ben is hesitant todo that.
(27:12):
Yeah. So I guess it must be I feel
like they were either referencedsome incident or you know,
something that they know about him that they're just weary
about having him use his powers to his full the full extent so
did. You think Ben was going to die?
No, I had AI had a feeling that he was going to die.
(27:35):
You know, I, I felt like they were trying, he was trying to
set it up that we, you know, we thought Ben was going to die,
but I never, I never really thought that he was going to
die. I don't know.
Yeah, I think they're setting upa change is going to come and I
and I left open the possibility that that change is been dying.
I see them dying in the next. I think he has to have a
(27:56):
showdown with Mambo Italia and that's, yeah, he saved Sani or
something. Some sort of Revenge of the Sith
type type battle. You know, I have the.
This was their first encounter. They they have to, you know,
encounter again. Yeah.
And you know, I thought it was super cool.
Like just like we said last timethat Maria Perez's recruiter was
(28:19):
a politician and in this one we have multiple politicians.
Yep, the Haitian president, the German guy, and.
The the Spanish guy. And Spanish guy?
Yep, Yep. Yeah.
So he, he's, he's at the UN. I think that needs to come to a
head cause we've heard hints that the dark side is in
(28:40):
multiple positions of power internationally on a
geopolitical scale. We've heard that was it the DNI
or or someone in our either defense or intelligence?
Department is on the line with the good side, yeah.
Aligned with the the shepherds instead of going on a Side Story
to a Caribbean island and and voodoo witches and priestesses.
I want like this world of the Shepherds to combined with a
(29:03):
traditional thriller, espionage,spy thriller.
So I want like the Shepherd's version of a congressional
hearing or a meeting at Langley or, you know, and maybe GAIL can
be that vehicle, maybe somethingwith her.
And the Shepherds has to bring them into the US government a
little bit tighter. I just think we need to see them
(29:24):
operating in, within or against the US government or other world
governments. I think we need a political
shepherd's book soon instead of the Side Story adventure.
Maybe that's another reason why I was, you know, a little let
down by this novel, because I thought that's I I thought as
soon as where we're going that they're they're putting hints in
(29:46):
it made all right, we got rid ofVictor.
Where are we going to go next? They obviously clearly like
thought of that angle by puttingthese politicians as being
members of the Dark Rising, but they just, you know, I don't
know. Didn't lean in.
It'll be very intriguing what they do with Mama and Talia.
(30:07):
And I think that's I'm still hooked.
I'm still, I still want to read the next novel.
Like, you know, even though I wasn't in love with this novel,
wasn't in love with half of the last one, I'm still into the
series and I I want to see wherethey go next.
They did enough to wet my whistle to be like, all right,
I'm intrigued. This book did enough, but from
(30:30):
the moment they opened with the vacation stuff and the team is
taking a break, I knew it was almost going to be a gap, almost
a filler. And it's not going to be a
straight up let's advance everything at Saint George,
let's advance everything at Trinity Loop.
Let's have some big plot that involves all of that coming
together. The second they said they're all
on vacation, I'm like up Side Story Jed, go off, do something.
(30:50):
Yeah, 'cause we, we didn't get any time at Trinity Loop, you
know, besides our little bit with Sarah Bath and and Corbin.
Like we're not spending, we're not seeing them interact during
class We're not, we're not getting into that.
We didn't get any of the team dynamic, like I said.
But we set up the special mission stuff, so now we know
that they're special missions unit.
(31:11):
It's like they're ready to go. I think we're ready to RIP, go
back to old time. And I think there's a lot of
promise in the series. And it ends with a kiss.
So GAIL is here to stay. I think that's going to add
another element. It's almost like what you wanted
Detective Perez to be, but she was dark, so you knew he can.
It can never happen. Well, now you get a chance to
see what they do with her movingforward.
(31:32):
I would say the series would be very much slipping for me if I
wasn't into GAIL and Jed. The fact that I'm OK with the
two of them together keeps me init like I want to.
I want to see where they go. The other thing that was kind of
cool is those knocks, that couple that they first run into,
who is going to help them? Who get brutally murdered?
(31:55):
Who get whacked early and in a crazy way.
And then the voodoo stuff with the the dove being nailed to the
ceiling and the snake in the bed.
There was just some wild strangestuff where.
If Jed's able to heal the dove, they didn't even talk about
that. Right, so Jed does have the
healing powers, but he couldn't save Johnny this time.
He. Couldn't save Johnny this time,
(32:16):
but he his powers are growing. I don't think he could heal the
dove if Ben weren't relinquishing his powers.
That'll be interesting to figureout.
I think Ben's starting to realize there's a shift that
needs to take place. Maybe if Mike Moore passes, Ben
has to move into more of that spiritual guidance role.
(32:40):
Or he can go hardcore into just the logistics.
You know, running this thing as a military op, a straight up
military op, even though I can'tdo the spiritual stuff.
So there's a lot of ways you cango.
I'm interested. I'm definitely interested, All
right. You want to get into the
scorecard. Plot and action.
Let's just put those two together.
What do you say? I think I'm going to go A7 and
(33:04):
A7. Yeah.
Maybe even like a the action. I think the action's A7,
action's A7 it's saved. Suspense.
It's saved by the suspense, the cemetery and I think that the
end scene at the dark rising. We didn't even talk about the
(33:28):
the action scene in Paris. Like this whole side mission
that's not even like, you know, Jed doesn't he have has no idea
what's going on where essentially.
Dark Rising. Yeah, essentially Ben takes them
into a a suicide mission, unbeknownst to him like that.
That's two instances. The first when he comes out and
(33:50):
they only lose 1 operator, but they lose way more operators
than the second one, so that's 2.
Second battle, yeah. 2 battles that he's now taking people in
that you could question his leadership ability for.
Yeah, because he's blinded by anger and hatred.
Anger. Yeah.
It's literally Star Wars. No, it is.
It is Joseph's Campbell, you know.
(34:13):
It all stories are the same, yeah.
You just put a different variety, different spice on
them. Yeah.
I think maybe it was 7 or 6. I was going to say 7 sounds
great for action slash suspense because the final battle of the
cemetery scene plot, though, I got to go lower.
The one thing preventing me fromgoing lower than six, so I'm I'm
7:00 and 6:00 as well, is that Ilike the school development.
(34:37):
I liked all the moments with thekids being groomed, with the
different adults at the school, like one who's like the
principal, Miss Whitlock or something.
Oh yeah, she was creepy. She was creepy.
She was tough as nails. And then there was that other
one who they kind of liked, and Sonny was like reading her mind
and she's. Like she actually had no idea
what the hell was going on. She just was a good person, good
(34:57):
teacher, no idea what's going on, wanting to help the kids,
but she's like, oh, this is strange.
And this yeah, like I, I miss Harper.
I think I I liked everything at the school and the kidnapping
stuff was OK. So that keeps me out of 6 for
the plot. The voodoo stuff.
I'd probably go lower on some ofthe the way Mambo Talley isn't.
(35:19):
She is the villain, but Calypso's the villain and I
don't know exactly who Calypso is.
Calypso has weird powers too of.She's like infiltrate dreams.
She's like, I'm going to come toJed tonight and it will be fun.
She was creepy with her little like very loose.
Serpentine and yeah, yeah, there's a.
Monster. There's multiple times where Jed
(35:40):
has that dream where he's on thebeach.
Yep, and he can't move. And she's the monster.
And she's the monster that comesout and like, but in actuality,
she's there in real life, like suffocating him like that.
That was super crew. But I think that's another thing
that like brings up suspense andaction.
Like what? Why it justifies the seven there
because some of the certain nuances with these characters.
(36:01):
Very interesting. Yeah, it might do that, but it
also to me hurts the plot a little bit because I just don't
know exactly how it fit in. Just Mambo Italia is like
lackey. Yeah, I don't know.
I didn't get the role for Calypso exactly.
No. Just a henchman.
Yeah. Part big bad, part henchman.
(36:23):
That and the the other henchman who could see Sarah Beth.
Vegan Vegan. Veto vegan.
Yeah. Didn't do much for me.
It wasn't explained why he can sense her in the projection.
I assume that because he was a. I'm guessing he's like is he the
original Dark watcher like he and then he's risen the ranks.
(36:47):
Of he's like a Ben, he has the power like a Ben on that side.
Or he was the Sarah Bath at one point.
I don't know. They didn't do enough to like.
Maybe Corbin. He's he's like a Corbin on
there. Yeah, they didn't do enough to
fully explain that though. And even though they they always
mentioned that he could get them, he never actually did.
Like that would have been more creepy and intense if like he
(37:09):
could touch them in the projection and like cause pain
that way. We came close a few times.
You came close, but we never confirmed.
I think if that if that gap would have been bridged and that
happened, I think it would have upped the stakes a lot, yeah.
Because now they're no longer safe.
Yeah, and I would have been OK with that and, and trying to
figure out why they're no longersafe.
(37:29):
And it's because of what they'redoing at the school.
What Veden can do is what they're trying to change the
zombie children to do. That would have been cool.
So let's just go to bad guys then, because all this, yeah, is
bad guys talk. They all individually have cool
traits. I don't think they all work that
well as a interrelated cast. I think I have to go 3.
(37:52):
Yeah, I was. I was going to say this XX but
I'm going. To go 3.
You know, I, I guess I'm raisingit up from that 2 1/2 because I
the potential promise that we could get with Mambo Talia and
the idea of an ecalipso, the idea of a of Eden are
intriguing. The idea of this, you know,
(38:12):
we're seeing more and more of the dark players of the world.
You know, now that we we no longer have Victor, getting to
see the Victor's like Dark Rising was kind of cool.
Like in the service Leia flashback back to the day.
So what are you bought? In Yeah.
(38:33):
Are you bought into all this? No, but I'm not like that's the
problem. Yeah, the same way plot went
down. I don't think I can go higher
than A2. Yeah, yeah.
The problem is I'm bought. I'm bought into like the series
because I want to see how it goes, but into this novel, into
what they're trying to sell me for this book, I was taken out
(38:58):
of it. Yep, I agree.
And this one off exploratory plot, not having all of our
members, you know, bringing in other elements.
I just wasn't bought it. Took me out.
Yeah, this is the worst stand alone book you could ever read.
If if someone picks this book upwithout knowing the shepherds,
(39:21):
that's a mistake. Like, Oh yeah.
You're just, you're confused. I don't know what you would
think. Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah. You would have no idea and power
to them though, because. They had to do something
different. Well, they had to do something
different, but I think a lot of authors try to play that game of
like, we're not only writing to our hardcore fans, we're writing
to somebody who just sees our book in the bookstore and wants
(39:44):
it. I I think Andrews and Wilson
realize they're not they're not the like household name of like
you see them in Barnes and Noble.
You see them at the airport, yousee them at the CVSI don't think
they need they they don't need that.
Their thing is like right in volume and right for the people
we're writing for. Like they have a niche audience
and they cater to them. So I think the fact that they
(40:06):
just kept going in the series without needing to do a whole
book which re establishes everything, which is to like
didactic and teachy and preachy about who the watchers are and
explaining their gifts and goingback to phase one.
They didn't do that. They just wrote a book for the
series and kept it moving. So I would say power to them on
that. They weren't trying to, you
know, bring in new people and captivate new people.
(40:27):
It's like we know who we're writing for.
Our Shepherd's audience is all in.
Let's give them an adventure. But it's still A2 all.
Right. What about good guys, Mike?
I think, I think this is where it shines.
We said the good guys are each showing a different side of
themselves. Unfortunately for a lot of them,
that's a a bad side of themselves.
(40:47):
But I think that should have been named.
I think there were so many hintsthat Ben is driven by anger,
David is driven. By I wanted them to explain
what's going on. And that's the point of these
networks. The watchers have their keepers.
The operators have their TSL. Why aren't they talking to each
other and saying, hey, yeah, I have.
I just had this feeling. Well, oh, that's 'cause it like,
(41:10):
you know, we need to, you know, because David even had that a
little bit in the last novel, you know, like he's, he's,
that's been bubbling up. It needs to be addressed.
If it's not addressed early in the next book, I might get
upset, you know? I, I think it maybe it's a
(41:31):
learning moment. I think it there needs to be
stakes and consequences for eachcharacter realizing they have
these hang ups or they're makingthese mistakes.
And I think they just need to realize they need each other.
And and you, you have to be a team and you have to be honest
and you have to have lines of communication because we're sold
on the TS LS are vital. Pastor D Sarah Beth talking to
(41:52):
Pastor D even in this one, takesa weight off her shoulder.
And she's worried about being inin the watcher room, the white
room, too much. And she's worried about studying
for her exams. And, you know, everyone still
scarred from the big battle whenshe sits down, talks to Pastor
D, It's so powerful. I think everybody involved needs
to realize that. Name it.
(42:14):
And we've got to see more open lines of communication as their
only way to be successful and the only way to fix themselves.
And I think we have to look inside in the next book.
I think a lot of the next book has to be people sharing heart
to heart, everyone on the team needing to open up to each other
or else mistakes continue to getmade that have deadly
(42:34):
consequences. Yeah.
So I like what the good guys aredoing here.
I see some, you know, cracks in the wall and I think that's a
good thing ultimately for everyone to have to learn from.
So I'm going to go for and go, guys.
I'm going to make up some groundhere.
All right, I'll see you what you're for.
That's what we're pretty. We're pretty lock step on this
one. It's a little high.
I I think if three 3 1/2 could be valid, but and GAIL I I buy
(42:58):
into GAIL. Yeah, I know.
I think GAIL. Is enough.
I think like that that's that's got to be like the the edging
thing is, is GAIL and her shiny moments in this novel.
Yeah. And then those knocks, great
characters, even though they were whacked, it's like that was
a great little side character. And sunny level character.
Sunny. Sunny.
Grandma. You know, grandma, like, like
(43:19):
just these other little minor characters that we we get and
are exposed to for sure. Yep, setting.
You, how did you feel about going to the Dr. Haiti, being
down there pretty much the entire time?
We go a little time in Paris, you know.
Yeah, the way the border was described was actually pretty
(43:42):
good. We do a whole lesson actually on
the split between Dr. in Haiti and what not.
Yeah, the little towns crossing the border, the school good, not
great as there's nothing that stands out.
It's it's not like I felt the island vibes like it's not like
I hear the steel drum, you know,I'm drinking coconut water.
(44:02):
I, I wasn't that immersed in it,but I was immersed enough to
know the local lay of the land. Even Jed doing the sightseeing
and and Santa Domingo. And it's OK.
The the two most memorable settings almost have nothing to
do with that whole island Dominican Haitian vibe.
It's just a cemetery, which was I pictured in my mind with the
(44:24):
the 2 dark ones sitting in that car, Sure.
Watching the grave. And then the final house, the
final palace, what was it? Palace of Lost Souls?
Those two stand out. Besides that, not much.
So I'm going to go with three. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm
going to go a little bit higher than that.
I think I'm going to 3 1/2 because I think I liked the
(44:47):
Paris catacombs. Like the description of that
with the, you know, the originaldark rising and then, and then
going into, you know, the, the first dark, you know, the sort
of the interrupted dark rising. And I, I actually felt like, you
know, not that I've ever been toHaiti, but I did do a project on
Haiti in high school. And, you know, understanding
(45:10):
this whole, this island, which, you know, very crazy history
and, and the border and, you know, sort of understanding
those, you know, having these two people where one speaks
French, one speaks Spanish and like just the, the mix of the
culture there. I thought that they did a decent
job of, of, of bringing that in.So I'm I'm going to go a little
(45:30):
bit higher. I think that's fair, yeah.
Yeah, I think that's totally fair, unfortunately.
Cover. Man, I would be too fair.
No, not at all. All right.
Worst cover in the series. Worst cover in the series?
By far. Worst cover we cover on the
podcast. Quite possibly not.
(45:52):
Possibly no. Possibly that is you.
You're smoking one man. We've seen way worse covers.
There's no power lines first of all.
Power lines would make it better.
Extreme might make this better. You got GAIL in the mix.
You got a Jedediah. I think he's a little skinny for
(46:14):
for Jedediah. Maybe he'll leave a little short
for Jedediah. But I'm just, I'm just like,
where are they? Where are they running through
the streets of, you know, the capital of what's the capital of
Santo Domingo? Santo Domingo?
(46:34):
Like, are they at the palace? No, it looks like they're in the
city somewhere. So it.
Looks like they're on the city street cobblestones.
No, they, if they, the two of them, were actually in Paris,
this scene, you know, like running up to try to find the
Dark rising, This would make sense.
(46:57):
Yeah, but that was not the. Only problem is they're not on
that team. They were gallivanting around
Dr. in Haiti. They they had a couple long
drives going out the. Jungle not in cities.
Yeah, or, or out in that house in the middle.
Or the farm, The house. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, this makes no sense to me.I'm just going to be honest.
GAIL doesn't even meet, doesn't even meet up with him until he's
(47:19):
in prison. So she gets him out of prison?
Yeah. The two of them are never
actually like he is the only onethat's walking through the city.
He's like, you know, one time he's he's running from running
to try to catch that dark one. Because the kidnapper, the
kidnapper, the kid. Fighting Calypso.
She's Gail's not anywhere to be seen for that.
(47:39):
You need a cemetery bro. I I'm sorry I I need a cemetery
on the cover. That scene was so cool.
Sarah Beth projecting and telling him how to go and how to
find the grave, then digging himup and David with.
The I would even take him like alike a crazy palace in in the
Caribbean, you know, like some sort of estate from a, from a
high. A big wide open estate drone
(48:00):
shop. Yes, I am not not a cobblestone
European looking city. Or lean into the voodoo.
Right, you can do some of the voodoo.
Symbols like have some voodoo symbols have a voodoo doll or
like you know, something like that we.
Just talk about the purple as well.
Purple doesn't work. I guess because they're going
(48:22):
for like the whole spooky vibe. Purple don't work.
I could have taken like an oceanblue, like a Caribbean blue like
on the Barbados flag or something, you know, like that,
that kind of blue. But.
All right, So what are you giving it?
Man, I might have to go 1. Yeah, 1 for sure.
(48:44):
This is where not having multiple covers you know can
hurt. Yeah, an alternate one maybe
could have brought it up a pointor two or but.
Yeah. I'm just, I'm just not too happy
with it. And GAIL, terrible silhouette
outline running away from some sparks randomly appearing on
cobblestones. No thank you.
(49:05):
Gail's shape is so weird too. I don't.
All right, well, what's your free space, my dude?
It looks like something from West Side Story A.
Little bit, a little bit. They're running away from the
The Jets, the Sharks, I. Don't know man, I've said it
(49:28):
over and over. I like the cemetery scene.
I just think it's well written. It was it to me was the peak of
suspense. I know the final battle was
supposed to be it, but the most I was bought into this book was
the cemetery, seen him buried alive, and I knew David had a
role to play and I would. There we go between the cemetery
(49:50):
scene, but also David's arc in this book, coming around,
realizing he has a role to play,realizing he has value to Jed,
to the team, into the mission. I think that was sorely needed
and it's satisfied. What's a good one?
Yeah, to me, it's it's got to bethe the dark watchers and and
(50:10):
and particularly sunny like in her interactions with with Jed,
her interactions with with SarahBeth and I, I just I have a
feeling that she's going to be amajor player to come in the next
couple books. I agree.
You know, I think, I think she has the power to be like a
(50:30):
Corbin, to be like a Sarah Beth.So I'm Sarah Beth.
Is the Corbin to her? Sure.
Like I'm I'm super intrigued by what she can and and will do to
me. Like she's my freest base so.
I'm with you, Perfect. I do have a Limerick which goes
(50:51):
to some of our points that we discussed here tonight.
As Calypso comes on hot and heavy.
Jed nearly dies and was buried, but grabbing the shovel, David
ends the tussle, though Ben Morvan seems quite wary.
You running buried with heavy A.Little bit of a stretch.
(51:13):
Yeah. I I think something with the
pronunciation was supposed to make it rhyme better and I
didn't pull it off just. Like this book?
We'll we'll give you an A for effort, an A for thank you.
Appreciate that. Yeah, one out of five.
All right, well. Start scoring the limericks.
Now we definitely have our lowest score of the series.
Last book we were 31 or 35. This one we're a 31 and a 31.5.
(51:37):
I would say like it. It's not quite 20s territory.
No, no, low low 30s is where it.Should Yeah, so.
The scorecard works the scorecard.
Lives. Yeah.
Doesn't lie. Scorecard doesn't lie.
All right, well, yeah, we have alike I said at the top, we have
a lot coming for you guys. Brad Thor, Kyle Mills fade in
(51:57):
edge of Honor essay Cosby probably going to throw in some
Eric Bishop into there. Let me just pull up our reading
list. Sons of Valor 4.
We have a new atron, Brad Elder.He's a bona fide author.
We'll be covering his book Recoil of Justice.
So God, God, we, we want to get into nuclear war.
(52:22):
Steve Berry, terminalist the show, Dan Brown We, we have a
lot. We have a lot, but we have the
summer. It's summertime, baby.
Happy, happy belated Father's Day to you, Mike.
Thank you Sir, yourself as well.Congrats on being a new father.
Not to another child, not to another chicken, but this time
to a puppy. Yeah, I did it Got a puppy you.
(52:44):
Were forced to do it. I was forced to do it.
I'm an idiot, you know. What's another sleepless night?
It's all good. Happy Father's Day is a little
bladed. But to all the fathers out
there, all the fathers that are patrons, Oh, we didn't even
mention we had a fantastic, probably one of our best patron
(53:05):
Hangouts last week, talking about a little bit of the 7th
floor, mainly talking about other stuff.
So you know if you want to be a part of our ever growing
dialogue of our patrons. Bunch of nerds talking about
thrillers. The Thriller Pod Book Club.
Go to our website. Yeah, Patreon tab.
(53:28):
Patreon tab Patreon. Page.
You get access to. I think I called it the book
club tab. It's like the book club tab.
Get access to Probably the best thing on earth is our WhatsApp.
Group chat. Group as well as our monthly
more quarterly Hangouts. Mike even had his first meet up
last year. So we want to do we have we have
(53:50):
a big plans coming forward for this group.
We've been ever evolving couldn't do it without you guys.
So before we get out of there, out of here, need to thank our
patrons, Deputy Director Sherry F and Brad, Special Agents Ben,
Darrell, Kevin, George, Matt, Don, Peggy, Chris and Mark.
(54:14):
Yeah, we'll take us out of here.Mike.
Just like Gale be Gale. There we go, Love it.
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