JACK CARR Breaks Down DARK WOLF (SPOILERS: Terminal List Behind the Scenes)

Jack Carr joins Mike and Tyler to talk DARK WOLF spoilers and go behind the scenes of The Terminal List universe. Everything is on the table: Land Rovers, watches, Chris Pratt, Taylor Kitsch, and MORE!

SPOILER WARNING: We are the thriller deep-dive after show!

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Episode Transcript

(00:14):
All right, guys, welcome back tothe Thriller Podcast and today
for one day only, Tyler is not the biggest Land Cruiser fan on
the podcast because we are joined by Jack Carr.
Welcome, Jack. Yes, how you doing this is
awesome. How's it going?
Going great going grace how how land cruisers let's gosh I was I

(00:35):
was just in Morocco so there were land cruisers everywhere
there filming up filming true believer we just finished true
believer next season of the terminal list show and before
that we were in Africa for a while and before I got there the
guys were texting me back pictures of all these land
cruisers over there and they were saying now we finally
understand this Land Cruiser obsession of yours they they.

(00:55):
Get it? Reusing them, yeah.
So that was pretty. Yeah, once they finally like
once it clicks, they they won't be able to shake it probably so.
That's it. Yeah.
Well, the guys wanted to bring them back and there's a couple
of guys that are fans already onthe set.
Our armorer has a has an 80 series and he's a former Marine,
a Recon guy. And so we connected right off
the ballet first day on the set of True Believer back in 2021.

(01:18):
I walked in and I'd noticed it as I was walking to the set on
Paramount where we built the tunnels and flooded the parking
lot on Paramount to build those tunnels in the first show.
And I noticed this Black 80 series out there in the parking
lot that was tricked out was like, wonder who's that is?
And it was the armor. And yeah, we've been your
friends ever since. Good, good.
I, I was listening to a couple of your interviews with some of
the authors that you like and there was, there was one

(01:41):
recently who's the author that that has like the Gabriel
series. Gabriel along, that's a Daniel
Silva. Daniel.
Silva Yeah, yeah. So I noticed at the beginning of
yours, you know, you were, you were kind of excited to to talk
to him and stuff. And I wanted to let you know
that's how I am. I'm very excited to talk to you.
Lots of influence and stuff. And actually we've met.

(02:03):
It was a similar situation. You and I have met a couple of
times that book signings and stuff.
My cousin is producing for me and he was with me and actually
he was going to pop up a pictureof my 60, my FJ602.
Wow, that's beautiful. So unfortunately had to let it
go, but you had a big influence on me getting that, that I had

(02:23):
for years and especially it being white due to James Reese's
in the first novel. So wanted to say thanks and show
you that at least if you talk about Land Cruisers, I'll know
what you're what the jargon is. When I got that thing, he
couldn't stop talking about it. He was just talking about you
and Land Cruisers constantly. Man, I wish you still had it.

(02:44):
Like, it's like we have my wife's trying to convince me
she's out here 'cause we're, we're, I said we just flew in
from Paris last night 'cause we were filming in Morocco, met her
in Paris and then just got out here doing some stuff on the
East Coast before kickoff book tour.
But she's trying to convince me to get rid of one or two of the
Land Cruisers that are have infiltrated the compound over
the last few years. But I won't hear it.

(03:06):
No, no, I was going to. Breach the gates.
Some subtraction, you know, but yeah, very.
And I might, I still have the one that I drove in the SEAL
Teams and that's it's been modified a bit.
Yeah, that's the, that's the icon 4x4 done, done right.
Yeah, I plan on getting another one, but I want mine from
Corsetti. I like their, I like their
program and. Yeah, of course that is great.

(03:26):
I went out there, sat down with him a while ago, 2021 actually,
we were filming the show. So I went out there, got the
full tour of the shop and definitely want one of his as
well. He does a great job in all of it
for a long time. Really like his 80s series.
He has a great 80 series on the he has these huge murals of them
also on the walls, on these awesome brick walls that he has
in the shop. It's really, really cool and
such a such a good dude. But yeah, the one I drove in the

(03:48):
seal Teams was the same color asthe one that James Reese uses in
the TV show. And but in the book, you're
right white and I had it white for a, a certain reason.
And but then when I got to the show that Antoine Fuqua said
that white cars. And if you think about it,
there's only very few shows thatstand out, movies and TV shows
that have white cars. Miami Vice being one, obviously

(04:09):
for like the, the color palette of that show.
But you don't really think there's not too many others that
have white vehicles, unless you like need to make a, let's say
an old Rolls Royce or something stand out for a certain reason.
But that like 30 years ago, you know, something like that.
Even then, that car would have been 20 years old, Something
like that. Usually they're silver or Gray
or something, but the white oneson screen, they it doesn't play

(04:31):
as well or it's distracting or some of there's some reason that
it doesn't really work on television and film.
So we switched it to the color that that I drive in real life.
Yeah, I know the the one used inseason 1 ended up in the Land
Cruiser Museum in Colorado, so hopefully if I make it out
there. Yeah, it felt like, well, it
ended up me first. It was like my wrap gift.
And so so I ended up with that. And then my wife was like, this

(04:53):
thing doesn't even start. It's don't work when it does.
And so it went down to the to the Land Cruiser Museum, on
loan. On loan only.
OK, so you still have the right to steal yours and make them
home someday? Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. We wanted to jump into some Dark
Wolf stuff off the bat and then make our way to some Cry Havoc

(05:14):
and then some future project stuff down the road.
So I was going to ask some some things that, you know, we're
going to probably jump straight into spoilers.
So did you have Jed as that he'll turn from from the get go.
He's he's a great buy in. Mike and I were talking and we
both totally buy into him from the first episode in the

(05:34):
recruitment and everything and how he runs the team and
everything like that. So tell us a little bit about
Jed and his his pathway. Yeah.
Jed Haverford from the beginning, Yeah, he had the same
arc from the very beginning whenDave Degiglio flew out to Park
City right after Terminal S cameout.
So came out in July of 2022 and a couple weeks after that the

(05:55):
numbers came in with Amazon. It was very clear that they
wanted another season spin offs or whatever we could give them.
And and so Chris Pratt called and said, Hey, why don't we do a
Ben Edwards spin off? And I had another spin off in
mind. But when Chris Pratt calls you
and says, let's do this one, yousay that's a great idea, Chris.
And and so he called Taylor after that and Taylor was 100%

(06:16):
on board. He loves playing this character,
Ben Edwards. And then so Dave Degiglio flew
out. My buddy Jared Shaw, who's a an
actor on the show, plays plays Boozer is also now an executive
producer and a writer now and and does the technical advising
also with a with a team. So he flew out and then we
zoomed in Max Adams, former ArmyRanger, who's number two in the
writers room and went through like, what would that look like?

(06:38):
What would the start of Bens pathway towards being able to
make the decisions he does in the terminal list?
How would we do that in a first season and not getting them all
the way there yet because we want future if we want more
seasons, but having an arc that that'll be part of an
overarching arc that gets him tothat place where the terminal
list kicks off. So we just sat down in my office

(06:59):
out there in Park City and and sort of brainstorming and came
up with this with this whole concept.
Jed was there from the from the very beginning.
There's some scenes that they made it all the way through,
maybe not necessarily the pitch and the outline.
What's certainly the outline, not the pitch, but the actual
outline for the episodes. And then when you get closer to
filming, you realize that, well,some things are going to get

(07:19):
edited because of just time and other things are going to get
edited because of budget. And then so many other things
influence actor availability andand all sorts of things.
But so there's a lot of constraints.
So there's some other stuff that's like for flashbacks to
him to Beirut 1983 and to pulling a watch off his off of
his mentors hand. And that's the one that he wears

(07:39):
in the show. But it didn't didn't didn't make
it. We couldn't even film, but it
was there for the like when we started filming, but then it it
fell off very, very quickly. That's what a lot of people
don't realize about the show. When you see things online like
why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do this?
It would be awesome if this and that.
It's like there's so many constraints when it kind of like
it's, it's insane that anything actually gets made at all, and

(08:01):
even more insane that anything good gets made with all of the
constraints in place. And it's just, it's just the way
it is. So you kind of just do the best
you can with what you have, trying to make the best show you
possibly can for people who are trusting you with their time.
And you just didn't. And you realize that it's art
and it's objective and you're going to let it out in the
world. And nowadays people are just

(08:21):
going to throw, you know, arrowsand and Spears at you.
There's nothing you can do and everyone's going to have a
better idea. Why don't you do that?
Why don't you do this? But you know, you're just doing
the best you can. The budget you have after
availability that you have, timeconstraints you have, you have
to tell a story within 45 minutes to an hour arc each
episode. And then they have to be an
overarching arc throughout that whole season.

(08:43):
And everything has to move that plot forward.
So it's it's really interesting project to be involved in
because it's so different than the novels where I can do
anything that I want and there is 0 constraints.
And then it's all on me if people love it or hate it.
There's no there, there was no actor availability.
There was no budgetary constraint.
There was no timeline. There was nothing like that.

(09:03):
I mean, there's timeline with deadlines, but as you probably
notice, I blow past those fairlyregularly because it has to be
all about the book. I'm not just going to turn
something out, get 100,000 wordsand and turn that thing in
because, oh, I'm up on a deadline.
That's just not how I'm wired. I want to miss a few deadlines
here and there along the way, much to the chagrin of my
publisher. Well, with with stuff that the

(09:26):
people were like, man, why didn't you do this?
I know that in some cases you guys did do things like that.
It just gets cut. There's a couple of like my
favorite scenes that didn't makethe cut in Season 1, But I
haven't heard you talk a whole lot about stuff that got cut
from this season. So is there anything in
particular? Like I really enjoyed the scene
in the first season that got cutwhere in the finale James goes

(09:46):
to do the the roll off into the water.
And I can't remember if it's on the boat or in the water that
the whole team is there. He says I'm not alone and goes
in the water and I think you guys had, I don't know if it was
shot or written that the whole team was with him in the water
basically. That was so there were a couple
was it just did it just end up being because now I have three
things that are conflating in mymind.

(10:06):
First season Dark Wolf and now we're at its floor true
believer. First two episodes are are
edited already. So we're there'll be more edits
as we as we go and continue to refine.
But but right now like heads over in those.
But I believe Boozer was there when he goes over the side.
Were there two other guys that were also there?
Three of them go over. I thought so.
I thought there were were others, but I think you had said

(10:30):
some somewhere where like the entire Prava team was.
It was basically there. Yeah, now you have actual
availability. Can we trust the memories as
well? Because they had the unreliable
narrator part so we don't know what we can trust in those
flashbacks and memories of who'sactually there.
And that makes sense for the headspace that he's in at the
end of season 1. And and the constraints you
mentioned Jack make a lot of sense.

(10:50):
One of my small gripes about theshow is I could have used more
than 7 episodes and I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for
that, but man, I was hoping for 8910.
But what's amazing is this season, I think the brilliance
of the decision you, the team and and Chris had to go back in
time with Ben Edwards actually sets up True Believer in some
ways even better than the end ofseason 1 The Terminalist did.

(11:12):
I feel like it was intentional to put in so many Nuggets for
fans who know and love True Believer that we got a Vic
Rodriguez name. Drop the polygraph with
truthful, conclusive and deception indicated.
Now what a treat, an absolute treat for the fans of the books.
I wonder if you had a hand in pushing the script in that
direction 'cause I know you are a writer credited with the final

(11:33):
episode. But it was also genius in that
it set up things like Rafe in his Africa connections so well.
So anybody who didn't read the books knows these guys going
into True Believer and knows thedynamics.
Was that all intentional in the writers room?
Yeah, it was unintentional before the writers room.
It was intentional in the pit Amazon that we did in end of
October 2022, so just a couple months after the terminal list

(11:54):
came out. So that was intentional in that
in that pitch. So from the very beginning, we
want to tell those stories and then we can save that time to
tell the story of true believer without having to explain who
everybody is, have a flashback here or there, have a
conversation where they talk about it that some people might
miss. So this was a way to tell that
story without having to do it intrue believer.

(12:14):
So there were multiple reasons to a spin off like this and that
was certainly one of the one of the fun ones.
Cause in True believer, I have achapter and I talk about this
fallout, but I can be fairly general because what's important
is that there was a fallout thatit involved an operation in Iraq
and somebody you going a little bit rogue and OK, you get that.
And then the story moves, moves forward.
But now we have to figure that out.

(12:35):
OK, what exactly was that to tell the story, knowing that you
can take some some liberties nowas as well and telling this
story through a visual, visual medium.
And so that was all part of it from the get go.
Set up these characters, tell their back story, get those
connections with the with the audience ahead of time and then
roll right into true believer where they have major roles

(12:57):
there as well. So it was fun discovery along
along the way. Shiraz, who plays tall like she
was a huge discovery in dark wolf.
Amazing. Just I can't wait to see what
she does next. She's so wonderful and you
probably saw her for this is a spoiler because they put her in
the the rap video. The rap WR AP video came out the

(13:18):
other day. I just say goodbye telling
everybody that that true believers wrapped up and she's
in there. She says, you know, it's a wrap
on on true believer season 2 or whatever she says, but she's
fantastic. So you find little things like
that along the way as well that are, that are surprises that you
don't know at the outset when you see a character written in
in an outline or a character bio, or then you move into the

(13:39):
the scripts even. And then even when you cast
someone, you're not 100% sure what they're going to bring to
the role. And then somebody like Shiraz
steps in and just crushes it. Then you're like, OK, well, how
do we do a Shiraz MO spin off, you know, like that?
You're like, how do we how do wedo this?
That'd be an amazing story to tell, you know, and I've have a
whole pitch for that ready to go.
And so, yeah, there's always discoveries like that.

(13:59):
Rich Hastings. I don't think we can.
I'm not sure we can say. You saw his back in in the rap
video for for True Believers. You don't see his face yet.
So I won't say, hey, you can probably guess, but amazing,
incredible. And I would love to tell that
story and whether it's through television or it's through some
books, maybe novellas, maybe short stories, maybe audio only

(14:20):
novellas, like that sort of thing.
Like have a whole plan to explore all these characters to
me as well and have interesting back stories that that span
generations as well. Contemporary 60s, seventies, 80s
time frame and then 30s, forties, fifties, 60s time
frame. So I have 3 generations now that
I'm focused on from two different family lineages,
Reese's side and the Hastings side.

(14:41):
So there's a There's a lot to work with.
Wow. And you're talking about
casting. I think one of the standouts was
MO Tyler and I were talking on our review of Episode 6 and
seven how he tells a whole dialogue with his face.
He can have the camera on him for one second and he tells a
whole story of his personhood, his background, his passion for

(15:01):
country. I I just think he was a standout
of the show, which surprised me.And again, that's a great tie
into to believe true believer. MO was just stand out this
season. Stand out.
Yeah, MO's Dar, such a great guy.
Everybody became such great friends over the course of the
the 7-8 months that it took to to film this.
And Dar's amazing. And I would have been at his

(15:21):
wedding, but I was at UFC for the for the show.
So Tom, what got Hopper went? But everybody's such good
friends. Everybody wants to hang out and
do more shows together because it was such a wonderful
experience and different than a lot of them have had in
Hollywood thus far. And that's something that's
repeatedly told to me over and over from everybody from hair
and makeup to to the armor is tostunts to, I mean, every single

(15:45):
department on set tells me how different it is to work on these
shows. And that's Chris Pratt, Santoine
Fuqua, it's David Digilio every day setting the tone up here
that really allows everybody to bring their A game because over
the course of 7-8 months, like life is going to happen to
people. This isn't just a quick like
couple week thing. This is a long time and you're
away from home, you're in, in this case, you're in South

(16:06):
Africa, you're in Toronto and you're in Morocco and life's
going to happen. Maybe a, a, a parent is going to
pass away, a child's going to begoing to be born, a kids going
to go to boot camp, you're goingto get married, divorced, all
sorts of things are going to happen.
And Dave Degilio in particular takes care of each and every
person on set. And so they just come up to me

(16:27):
and make sure they tell, let me know how much they appreciate
it. So everybody wants to keep
working together. So we'll, you know, we'll see if
things go off the rail at any given time.
You always keep that in mind as well.
But but right now things are looking pretty good.
Hopefully that that means more seasons or more movies in the
future with the cast together. What else?
I noticed that that like Jed hada Walther PPK in a scene and I

(16:50):
was curious as to how the show writing and the book writing
influence each other. So you just did your seventh
novel. Walther PPK shows up in there.
I didn't know if Jed having thatpistol is is from that
influence. Same with like when when Reese
finds his dad's shotgun in the back of the Wagoneer and then
you had written you. I'm guessing you had written for

(17:10):
the show shortly after and then Ben has a shotgun.
So I was curious how they influence each other and and
bounce back and forth. Yeah, well, the Ben having one
was different is that we wanted to differentiate his character
from Reese. So that didn't come from the
books. That was like, hey, how do we
just how do we differentiate these guys visually as well as
just through what, through theiractions.

(17:31):
So visually, oh, shotgun, that'sdifferent than two guys with ARS
running through this this compound.
And so, so that was really became his, his thing.
Actually, there were sequences that didn't make it into the end
of the show that are great in the writer's room.
But when it comes up against budgets, it turns into a hard
no. And that's happened.
That's happened every time so far.
It's probably always going to going to happen.

(17:53):
But yeah, there was a shotgun scene in in Dark Wolf that, that
that didn't make it. We'll, we'll, we'll see.
But then you tuck it away for the future, and I tuck them away
for, you know, for future books or for for future TV shows.
They just go in the They go in the file, that's for sure.
We got the Winkler, though. The Winkler made its way in.
No way you're cutting that. And I get James Reese back in,

(18:14):
you know, reintroduce him with the Winkler so that.
Cameo. And nice.
There it is, nice, amazing, amazing look.
At Gear Head. So not only is he the Land
Cruiser guy of the pod, he's also the gear head of the pod.
So fantastic alley for our Jack car fans out there.
Fantastic. Yeah, uses in the first season
is framed to my office, you know, in a frame.

(18:36):
Jared Shaw got it for me from first season and framed it and
sent it to me. So that's on the on the wall
just as you walk into my my library.
It might be offshot, but I have a true believer, the accidental
gorilla and once an eagle off once an eagle next to me.
Nice, did you see once Eagle went to #2 on Amazon after the
the show it was. I did.
I did notice that it also doubleS great as a doorstop too.

(18:58):
Because it's it. Does yeah blood impact weapon
doorstop. I want to do a have a do a new
my pitch it to my agent. I need to follow up with her
because I pitched it a couple years ago, but now I have some
data to back it up with a jump to #2.
I'd love to do a new edition of Once An Eagle where I read a
forward and incorporate some of the things that I used to put in
the letters to guys that I wouldgive that book to when I was in

(19:20):
the SEAL Teams. Because I'd give them the the
book and then there'd be a letter in the front explain why
I was giving it to them. And then there'd be a letter at
the back that I'd sealed that explains my take on what they
just read. So I didn't pollute their
reading experience ahead of timewith my take.
So I want to incorporate some ofthose things into a, a forward
or maybe a forward and an afterward that kind of
replicated some of the things that that I talked about in the

(19:41):
letters that I gave guys in the teams, but for a broader
audience, more general audience.So I would love to to do that at
some point, but we'll see. I need to need to get a cult
major. It's not only Nuggets like the
appearance of once an eagle in the book or even the the poem by
Owen Pity of War. All that just screams Jack Carr

(20:01):
and the even the line of you know, our fathers never heard.
They were appreciated from theirofficers, from their commanders.
And so James doing that putting in the show, I think humanizes
him, humanizes the relationshipsand and as an outsider who never
served, I just know like guys like you on the down range on
the front lines probably need that and thrive on that.
And 1 little subtle way that happened was when.

(20:23):
Ben calls Reese right before hisfinal, his last stand.
Let's say we called it on our review, the Skyfall scene right
before his Skyfall last stand. He even says to him, like,
brother, you don't have to carrythis alone.
And I feel like a lesser show that didn't know the mentality
of the brotherhood might say, where are you?
I'm coming to get you. And Reese did come to get him,

(20:44):
but that was only thanks to MO tipping them off and tall and
what she did behind the scenes. So it really took that team to
save the day at the end. But when Reese says, brother,
you don't have to carry this alone, it was such a different
refreshing style of writing. Do you?
I feel like over and over the writers room, whether you were
involved, David, Jared was involved, or anyone else, they
captured what it means to tell aJack car story through and

(21:07):
through. So how was it trusting the guys
to write a script that's your universe, but not from the
books? Because I feel like they just
absolutely nailed everything that makes a Jack car story a
Jack car story. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's
certainly a lot of a lot of trust in there and we have an
amazing team right now. And the Owen poem, the the
poetry is in the pity bad one came from Max Adams, Army

(21:29):
Ranger. He incorporated that in for that
episode, episode 3 maybe. And and that's amazing.
I have that book of poems now right right next to me 'cause I
wanted to write a novelization of this, of this show.
I didn't get a chance to do it 'cause I was so embralfolved in
this, which took a lot longer than I thought for Cry Havoc.
I didn't realize it was going totake as long as it as it did.
So my novelization plans got gotderailed, unfortunately.

(21:52):
But I have a a new plan to stilldo it if I can get organized
here over the next couple years.But yeah, I mean it the the
writers room is amazing. You have Max in there, you have
Jared in there, you have Dave Julio in there every day.
But even before that, we write that whole this one's Co created
by me and Dave Degiglio and we write that whole pitch.
We do that whole outline for theentire season before the writers

(22:15):
room even gets together. So we've broken down the
episodes at that point and then you just kind of take what you
have and you give that to the writers room.
So you get some more brain powerinto that.
Like what about this? What about this, what about
this? And at that point I'm off
writing the books and they're doing that and every day I'm
getting a report at the end of the day of everything that was
that was talked about and everything that was changed.
And then I dive in at night and give my, my notes back on that.

(22:37):
And so you go through the whole,through the whole, through the
whole season that way until you get to the, to the episodes.
And then those come in the same way.
And then Dave and I wrote ours after all the other ones were
done at this point. We didn't do it that way for,
for true believer because we gotso busy last time, it kind of
got a little little crazy. But but all those come through

(22:58):
and you're making changes constantly.
And those are those are writers other than Dave, Max, Jared and
me go after the projects. So they leave.
And then it comes, all those fall back to us and Chris Pratt
and Antoine, the other executiveproducers, Kat Samic, who's
amazing. And those come back to to us and
we keep evolving those all throughout the entire season.

(23:18):
Then they don't stay static. And it's not like this actor has
to say exactly what's here because now they're getting to
know these characters and they're humanizing them and
elevating them from what's written on the page through
their performances. So it's got to be a living
document and it's got to it's got to evolve and got to get
better. And there's no egos.
That's the best part of this, this team.
There are no egos. No matter whose idea it was,

(23:41):
whatever idea is the best, that one wins every time.
But some of the things I wish wecould, you know, time wise or
budget wise, I wish we could, you know, wish those work
constraints, but they they are. So that's just that's just how
it goes. We we talked a little bit about
the B roll, what's on the cutting room floor.
Man, I wanted the wood chopping montage.

(24:02):
Tom Hopper, Taylor Kitsch, no shirts chopping wood.
I was ready for like Rocky four level montage of like, you know,
hearts on fire play and these guys chopping wood.
And then I'm like, oh man, they only chopped one piece of wood
and cut. I just there's little Nuggets
like that. I can imagine.
We're 1 so much fun to write 2 so much fun to film.
And then the actors bring so much more.

(24:22):
So thanks for the peek behind the curtain.
Can we get a little peek behind the curtain on the opening music
sequence? In Season 1, we had James Reese,
his home. It's very family oriented, it's
very nostalgic. It's got so many mementos of the
the teams and everything he's done.
But now we get Ben and boy, whata stark contrast, what a

(24:43):
juxtaposition. Great artistic choice, great
visual choice. And we're seeing almost as
descent, the pill bottles, the alcohol, the boat where we know
a final stand is going to take place.
That's a great creative decision.
Any peek behind the curtains of how that came to be?
Yeah, I mean, we knew we had a high bar from first season.
People love that. And people tell us all the time
how they always skip intros and they never did.

(25:05):
They never did with Terminal List.
And we're like, OK, we need to do that.
We can't use the same thing obviously, but how do we keep
some of the same thematic elements but make it bend, make
it distinctly? What does that look like?
So when you do something like that, you have an outside,
there's a whole other company that comes in that just does
those intros. And so you give them like this
outline and ideas and all that. So you give them all of that and

(25:27):
then they come back to you and say, how about this kind of the
storyboard type thing? And then it evolves from there
into into the video. And then then it's on the video
and all of that stuff with everybody giving their their
their comments and notes throughout the whole process to
include Taylor as an executive producer on this one.
So he's very involved in all of this, just like Chris Pratt is.
It's so personal to him. It's not just an acting job.

(25:49):
He's obviously an executive producer, but same thing with
with Taylor Kitsch on this one is Ben Edwards so personal for
him. And once again, it's not just an
acting job for these guys. So they're intimately involved
with every aspect of these characters development, every
aspect of the story, every aspect of editing to include
doing those intros and the intros.

(26:09):
Yeah, it was it was awesome. Simple Man comes from from Jared
Shaw listening to that overseas as a seal very important song to
him. So that's why it was in first
season when we first introduced Ben and then they back here at
the beginning of these in these intros and got to keep some of
those thematic elements. And for those listening or
watching, if you watch the very end, there might be a little

(26:29):
shadow on the right side of yourscreen during the last.
The arm. The arm comes up.
So there's all sorts of little things in there that's that
means something. We try to make everything mean
something. You asked earlier about the
Walther PPK and, and, and that sort of thing that you had have
referred uses and we try to makeeverything mean something.

(26:50):
But then sometimes you're going so fast on these, you're
actually making a movie on a TV timeline.
And so it is crazy. It is so much work for for
everybody on set, just the pace of these things we're trying to
do with the cinevision team, television, we call it.
And, and so sometimes something just comes in because, guess

(27:10):
what, it's very hard to move allthese weapons to Canada, to
South Africa, to Morocco, because each one of these
countries has a different laws, regulations, paperwork,
timelines, all these things. And you can't really replicate
exactly what you're going to do in each country with a whole
nother package because that would be astronomical in price.
So sometimes things do slip in for for whatever reasons, just

(27:33):
be out of necessity and you don't have an extra because it's
held up in customs in with the version with the the South
African version of ATF. What are we going to do?
Well, we have this, OK, use that.
So sometimes things like that happen.
So like the Tom Hopper, he gets a gift and it was supposed to be
a 1911 and then it didn't make it because it was in Toronto or

(27:55):
Morocco or something like that. Wherever we were filming that
didn't didn't make it. So we had to switch.
So things like that do happen, but we try to make every single
single thing, every single movement, every single piece of
gear, every single piece of clothing, every line of dialogue
obviously, but everything has tomean something on some level.

(28:15):
And but then sometimes, hey, something's stuck in customs and
you got to adapt. So that's just how it goes in
life. Yeah, I actually saw a comment
in in a couple of couple of posts that somebody was like
Rafe needs in 1911 and. Yeah, I mean, that's in the
script and it was supposed to be, you know, they can talk to
the, I don't know, whoever it was like hungry, I guess it was

(28:36):
hungry. They can talk to the hungry,
ATFI guess. Like I'm sure we'll get it down
the road when it's on screen more and maybe more important of
a character development or character feature.
Yeah, but it was, yeah, it was supposed to be there, but, you
know, once again. And then of course, the whole
world can now point it out. So thank you everybody.
The Internet comments are never going to stop, you know that.

(28:58):
But almost all positive for thisshow.
I feel like it's really crazy. The numbers, yeah, the numbers
from Amazon were real positive on season 1.
This one already shot to #1 on streaming every episode, it
seems like after an episode dropped, boom, we're up to #1 I
can't see a world in which the numbers here don't blow season
one out of the water. This thing is just picking up so
much steam. Rightfully deserved.

(29:20):
Yeah, it's interesting because Season 1 dropped for to binge
and this drops one a week. So you're not comparing apples
and apples. So it's interesting to do a you
can't really do a direct comparison, unfortunately,
because I would have liked that too.
It would have been really interesting too.
And you have one less, so one less hour, you know, multiplied
around for every viewer. So it's not exactly right.
But had it been 8 episodes and had it all dropped binge able,

(29:42):
then you'd be able to more directly compare.
But and now you you can't reallydo that directly.
But but yeah, the comments have been so positive.
I mean, there's always going to be a couple but that are crazy,
90, like 98, I would say percentin looking at them like that.
I was not expecting that. I was expecting, you know, kind

(30:03):
of like more like, yeah, positive.
But I've never seen any show, not just of you know,
terminalist universe, I've neverseen any show or book get as
many positive comments on the social channels as I've seen for
dark wolf. It's really astounding.
And Tom Hopper, I think it's 100% across the board on Tom

(30:23):
Hopper as like I have not seen one bad comment and he was so
nervous. I'm texting Tom like and he
doesn't get on socials really much.
And so I'm texting him stop and be like, bro, you crushed it.
Look at this response. I've never seen anything like
this. And and so he's very happy with
that. He put so much work into it and
knows when he accepted the role.He like was, I think it was
after he accepted the role wherehe really got to know how

(30:44):
important this character was to the audience and to the
readership and the listenership.So he like he was got, Oh my
gosh, what am I taking on here? Can I do this type of a thing?
And then he came in and crushed it and it was so awesome to see
cuz also he's such a great dude.And we all ride motorcycles and,
and hang out and we got to work,you know, working out together

(31:04):
in, in Budapest and we just really got to know each other.
And he's such a such a great guy.
So I can't wait for people to see him in, in True Believer
because his character's on a journey as well.
And he's in this kind of flux state.
We kind of made him and not exactly from the book True
believer because in the book he's only kind of in it more at
the end. And then this one, he's more
there throughout the entire season.

(31:26):
So it's it's going to be pretty cool, a little, little different
Rafe Hastings than than people might expect.
Yeah, I enjoyed, I enjoyed Tom as Rafe in in Dark Wolf
especially. I was happy to see we got a
torture scene, which is very typical Jack Carr, which is it's
just nice to see the features from the books show up in a
season of the show a little bit more, a little bit more obvious

(31:48):
or or readable than that maybe in the first season.
Something I did notice real quick about the first season is
that on the 4th of July this year it had a huge resurgence
where it jumped into like top 10or top five in on on prime,
which was pretty awesome to see.Number one.
Was it was it 1? I couldn't recall how high it it
made-up. Yeah, that's that's pretty

(32:09):
insane when it comes to cry Havoc.
If you know, you said you didn'trealize how big of a lift it was
going to be writing through the lens of 68 and you thought you
knew about Vietnam until you started researching it and
realized maybe how much you had to learn to to get the novel
going and enough to push the deadline and or push the release
rather. Do you think had you known how

(32:31):
big of a lift it was going to be?
Would you have maybe shelved it and picked a different topic for
this this book? Or you were you like dead set on
Vietnam no matter what happeningregardless?
Yeah. No, I would have.
I would have started earlier. I would have, yeah.
It's just so crazy. There's so much going on right
now. So we're doing the best I can as
far as arranging my day and juggling things and and all the

(32:52):
rest. But I need to do a better job at
that for sure. But had I realized just how much
it was going to take, I would have arranged things a little
differently because it took, it certainly took the full, the
full year to do. I'd like to get to a point where
I can do them in six months, butI'm just there's too many
projects right now that are justso crazy and jump back real

(33:12):
quick. Maybe it was top 10 for terminal
list on 4th of July weekend, I can't remember.
Things are conflating in my mindas well right now.
Oh, and I have coffee being delivered.
Thank you. Amazing.
Yeah, early morning pod for people who didn't realize I had
the coffee here. I'm glad you're you're joining
the coffee crew. Amazing.
Thank you. But.
Cry havoc, Can I ask you something?
Because it needs no introductionthe Jack car or needs no plug

(33:35):
the Jack car channel. You released more than just the
prologue this time on on your podcast, a preview for Cry
Havoc. So even before the publication
date, you guys can go listen to a big chunk of it.
And I was so glad about that 'cause sometimes these previews
give you so little and it's like, I just wanted a little bit
more. But no, we get full on on the
ground in Southeast Asia. You are master painting a

(33:59):
setting. What was it like?
Totally writing a different setting time wise, but also
geographic wise, 'cause I don't remember too much of of Reese in
Asia, particularly Southeast Asia.
So you nailed it in that in thatintro.
I just read 3 chapters of it or heard Ray Porter.
Amazing. Read 3 chapters of it.
It might be the number one Jack Carr book that I need more of

(34:19):
like I can't put down. What was that like?
Thank you. It was crazy.
And I thought I knew a lot aboutVietnam going into this.
Just academic standpoint, pop culturally.
I thought I knew about the the 60s.
I heard stories from my parents growing up just having all that
influence from the late 70s through the 80s, movies,
television, other thrillers and I so I thought I had a good

(34:42):
foundation, which was I think why I was like, oh, I can work
on this script. I can do that.
OK, then I'll get back to the book.
And then and I was just, it was just so crazy.
A lot of editing Dark Wolf, finishing up Dark Wolf last
October, mid-october and diving right into those, the post
production side of that while I'm trying to write a book at
the same time. And then everything else that
you're juggling with family and and all the rest of it is just

(35:03):
life in in general. But I wanted to write this book
through the lens of 1968. I didn't want to just say that
listening to Creedence Clearwater Revival and say it's
1968 and then have essentially Acontemporary thriller just
without cell phones set in Southeast Asia in 1968 like that
was not going to do it for me. I wanted to transport people

(35:24):
back to 1968. I wanted this to be a time
machine. I didn't want to write something
with the benefit of 50 plus years of hindsight.
I learned every character to only bring their life experience
up until 1968 to a particular line of dialogue, to a
perspective on a situation or anevent.
That means that if there was a adoctor that I have in this book

(35:46):
from for it was in Paris during World War Two.
Well, what would make him leave and end up in Saigon?
And how would he get to Saigon? What's going on in the world
that would have impacted him andmade him work for a foreign
intelligence service there? And so I have this whole back
story on him, but he can only have a life experience up until
1968. I only have that to draw from.

(36:08):
So that took a lot longer than anticipated.
And I was, I got a dictionary from 1969 that I found I
couldn't find the right 1968 one, but from 1969.
And I had maps from the 60s, I have books from like, like
pamphlets that the military would make back then kind of
like to give to to soldiers before they would go over
overseas, like customs and culture of the mountain yard

(36:31):
tribes and, and that sort of a thing.
So I wanted to make sure that all the gear was was, was period
specific and correct. And if I wanted to fudge
something a little bit, I talk about it in the author's note at
the end, like there's a couple, there's a specific pistol that
comes in to play at the end thatprobably wasn't there in 1968.
But I talk about it like, well, maybe it was a it was this Gru

(36:54):
character maybe got one to test early, a year early, like he got
a prototype, you know, so like little things like that.
But I explained it in the prologue.
So I want someone who lived through the 60s to realize I put
the energy, the time, energy andeffort in to try to capture the
feeling of 1968 and and all and just realize that I didn't just
say 1968 Credence Clearwater, throw some Hendrix, whatever.

(37:16):
And then write a regular story like that was not what I was
going for. And it just took longer than I
than I thought. So that's why we're talking in
October and not June. Yeah.
Can can I ask about that decision to go back and tell the
Tom Reese story 1, I think it was perfectly timed where we
were in the James Reese saga to to do that.
But the seeds were planted so much earlier and that we had the

(37:39):
little clues of the gun case like Ty mentioned in the
Wagoneer. We had the watch right going
back to we first hear about it probably in the terminal list
and. Right here, there it is.
Where are you? Did you feel like the creative
muse was speaking to you the whole term?
You were writing this project oflike Tom Reese's this ever
present backdrop that needs to pop up because in the blood I

(37:59):
think it was he was making more apparitions to James or or more
things coming up or only the dead.
When we get the dock scene, we actually see him and the poet
state, right. So it was books ago.
You were really planting seeds and developing a world in which
Tom Reese lived. Was that just a creative muse?
Like you knew you had to go in that direction?
What what really took you in theTom Reese direction start to

(38:20):
finish? Yes, before I even started
writing the books, I knew that Iwould do that and I got that.
I'm sure from a couple different, but for sure from
Stephen Hunter and Bob Lee Swagger and writing multi
generational characters there seating them.
Even if he didn't intentionally do it.
Now that I'm friends with Stephen Hunter, even if he
didn't intentionally do that, itworked out that way.
So I very intentionally seated characters that would allow me

(38:42):
the opportunity to to explore the ones that were interesting
to me to readers in the future when the time was right.
Certainly from Tom Clancy as well from the early 90s and
Without Remorse, we get to go back to the 70s in that in that
book to explore the back story of a fan favorite character,
John Kelly, John Clark. And I remember when that I was
so excited when I heard about that because I was already on my

(39:03):
path into the SEAL teams. I want to do that since I was
seven years old and also knew that I was going to write
thrillers after my time in the military.
So for me, that character, John Clark, John Kelly was was just
one of the one that I gravitatedto in the books.
He starts in Carnal, the Kremlin.
I think he's introduced certainly clear present danger.
But then to find out how I did at the time, probably through
Entertainment Weekly or something like that, with a

(39:25):
little tiny blurb on the side that says Hey, Without Remorse
is coming out and it explores his back story.
It was probably somehow something like that is where I
found out about it. And then being so excited for
that book to come out and then that one up at the time, it only
takes you back, you know, about 1520 years maybe, maybe tiny bit
more. And so now I'm a little farther
removed from that, but somethingsimilar.

(39:45):
I wanted to do that. So it was very intentional from
the outset. And after I finished Red Sky
Morning, I just knew it was the right time to do that.
And now I go back to James Reeseand figure out how do I bring
him back into the fold after he's had such a complete arc
that ends when that book 7? That's it, That's authentic,
that's real to the reader. It's not disingenuous.
Like I'm just going to pick him up.

(40:06):
So I need to write some more books with James Reese.
It can never be that way. And I know we've all read books
that just get to 100,000 words and wrap up or someone's like, I
feel like I've read this one before by this author because
it's book 20 at the same person.Like I want to avoid that as
much as I possibly can. I'm very aware that that can
happen. I never want this to turn into a

(40:27):
business. I'm very entrepreneurial in
nature, but I'm not a businessman and and I want to
make sure that I'm always writing the best story I
possibly can. And yeah, that is because people
are trusting me with time they're never going to get back.
But I don't write it for them, Iwrite it for the story.
And that's very different, I think, 'cause I'm not chasing a
head and I'm not worried about writing something that's going

(40:49):
to offend someone. I'm not doing any of that.
I'm not worried about, oh, our long chapter is not in anymore.
Or people like shorter ones. No, none of that ever.
The chapter takes as long as that chapter takes.
It can be very long or very short, doesn't matter.
The story dictates every time. And that's the way that I honor
that reader and that listener that's going to spend this time
that they're never going to get back.
So that's something I really think about, but it's never

(41:10):
about, oh, I want to write this for the fans, I'm like this
because they'll like this or I think this is short chapters
work better now. Never ever ever is always 100%
the story out of respect for that audience.
With with Cry Havoc I I didn't get an advance advance copy or
anything so I'm not aware, but do you?

(41:31):
David Brown didn't send you an advance copy.
We'll get on to text him immediately.
That's the podcast. Yeah, I got the one, but we got
to hook tie up next time. Yeah, you're listening to this,
which I know you will. Come on.
I if I can be if if I can be a beggar and a chooser I would I
would request a publication box however.
I have left, I decided before I left.

(41:53):
I've been on the road for almosta month now, go to Paris to East
Coast stop and it's directly into book tour.
So hopefully I'm going to give my wife one of my pieces of
luggage to take take home as I tour here so I can whittle
things down a bit. But I had to sign all those
before I left. I'll see what I'll see what we
can do. I know we'll probably see the

(42:14):
Rolex stuff and some hatchet squadron and maybe where the
Tomahawk comes from. Mines and Omega today so.
It's nice, love it. Yeah, it's the No Time to die
one, but. Nice nice, I have that one at
home too, it's a great watch. It's fantastic, but do we see
anything from Tom's father? Any bread crumbs laid for Tom's
father? I know he's a World War 2

(42:35):
veteran. I know your grandfather was a
World War 2 veteran who who passed away during the war.
I can't remember what he what. What aircraft was he in?
Like this and they folded up like that's been on aircraft
carriers or the show called Black Sheep Squadron came out
the late 70s. I watched in syndication with my
dad in the early 80s about PappyBoy played by Robert Conrad back

(42:57):
then. I just loved that show.
So yeah, very naturally. So you've probably seen in Dark
Wolf also, there's a compass in In Dark Wolf, a waffle compass
that is there from Vietnam, fromReese's dad that he gives to to
Tom Hopper's character Wraith around this fire scene, this
scene that I love in in Dark Wolf.
But yeah, we'll see about that. We'll see about Seiko watches.

(43:19):
We'll learn where this watch came from.
And in the earlier books, this is one of those ones where
you're kind of like, maybe I should have left it a little
more general. I think in one of the books I
say that he got it at the PX like a, a military.
They were in my head anyway, that's what I thought because I
knew a lot of Seals, Vietnam eraSeals that said they got GM TS,
Rolex GM TS and Rolex submariners at the PX in Saigon.

(43:41):
And I remember it was like 150 bucks or 225 for one of them,
but it was they should have bought like 30 back then.
You 120 bucks or 150 bucks at 1400 bucks was a was a lot.
So I think in my head, whether Iput it in the book or not, I
can't quite remember. But he got it at the PX and then
I got to that part like that's not very exciting.
What's up? The way, way cooler way to tell

(44:01):
this story that gives this a back story that's really
significant. And so I got to leave that in as
well. That plays into mountain yards,
plays in to Army Special Forces,plays into a poker game that he
were. Tom learned to play from his
father. And this goes back to World War
2 because I thought, OK, I've done this with James Reece.

(44:23):
I planted some seeds. Well, what was the relationship
like between Tom Reece, Vietnam and Thomas Reece, his dad in
World War 2? And how do I differentiate these
things so I'm not just changing the dates?
And so I thought about the WorldWar Two generation and how a lot
of them came back and got to work and built this country into
what it is today with all these options and opportunities all of
us have. And there wasn't there wasn't

(44:44):
social media and there wasn't anybody giving them a helping
hand. There was the GI Bill.
And so I thought about what would his path have been like
and how did he get to and from these theaters of war?
Oh, on a boat. What did they do on the boat?
Oh, they played poker. Maybe he passed that along to
his son and he passed along lessons from life through poker
rather than the way that James Reese's dad Tom is doing it more
direct, passing on these wisdom.Well, that World War Two

(45:06):
generation, maybe a little more silent.
Maybe children were supposed to be seen, not heard back then.
So how do I generationally pass something along?
Or maybe even the kid didn't realize he was being taught
lessons. And so I had that happen over
over a poker table. So it's anyway, it was really
fun to to write that sort of thing.
I really like that one other kind of creative and we're going

(45:26):
to respect your time here because I know you got other
busy things, so we'll let you gobut.
About books and reading and TV shows and movies all day long.
David has me all day. It's crazy.
Up till 4:00 PM. There's no breaks.
David in his schedule, but. I mean, you are the hardest
working man in in media, the empire you've built and the
amount of connections. And something we talked about

(45:48):
earlier is how your your dialogue, your stories, your
characters have this humanity and that comes through that.
You also built that in the team around you and the team working
on the show, how they're there for each other.
And David Degiglio is so important.
The guys are taken care of. I feel like that's why the
comments are so positive. The Rotten Tomatoes audience
score, it's due to 1, the amazing product being put out.

(46:10):
But that's not all of it. What elevates that product is,
you know, the people behind it are brothers, sisters, cousins,
fathers, parents. And you respect that in their
craft and in their work. And I think that humanity shines
through. And you said it on another
podcast, Novellas might come into play down the road.
You even use the word novella before.
And the number one that I keep thinking of a savage son.

(46:31):
There's that period of Reese in Siberia on the loose.
It might be my favorite single paragraph you ever wrote.
And I was like only a paragraph.It's haunting.
It's poetic. He's a spectre in the night.
I feel like that writing you were you were on another level,
consciously or subconsciously, you're you're writing.
Your creativity just took a big jump.
Have you felt like you want to unpack that?
Because I've heard you say that might be a novella down the road

(46:52):
when you know, we have a little more time.
Yes, it is on my list. I have a strategic plan that I
keep adding to. It's this living document that I
that I have and that's been in there for a while.
But you're right, I got to that.And in the outline there was a
for Savage Son. I've done every book the same
way thus far with a title, with a theme, with an executive
summary. With that, I read and ask
myself, is this worth the next year, year and a half of my

(47:13):
life? And then read it again and say,
if someone was walked by Hudson News, would this be worth them
spending time in the pages that they're never going to get back?
And if I the answer is yes and yes, then that's the then that's
the project. When I take that executive
summary, I turn it into the outline.
And in the outline phase, there was a big chunk that is Reese
moving across Siberia. And then I got to that stage and

(47:34):
was like, oh, this is a whole nother book.
This is a whole nother at least part, and it doesn't really fit
with the story, doesn't move this plot forward.
It moves the character forward and develops that character.
But it is a very significant chunk that is only going to do
that and not move this story forward that people have been
invested in, that I've been invested in.

(47:54):
And so it just very naturally became this poetic chapter that
I loved writing that was so muchfun to do because it was
different than the other chapters, but I needed it to be
different because it had to takethe place of an entire part that
is now not going to be there. And so once again, it's not

(48:14):
something that I wrote and said,this is not going to going to
fit here. I got to that part and it was
very clear that it was not goingto work.
And so I made a little note to myself that, hey, maybe go back
and do novella, maybe do anotherbook, maybe do a short story,
maybe do an audio only. Maybe there's options today for
that when I can figure out my schedule and time, but very

(48:38):
perceptive that is on that is onmy list.
And oftentimes my outlines don'tguide the entire.
I mean they get the guide but there it is not written in stone
like in We should wear spoilers here, right?
We said spoilers. Of course, yeah.
Yeah. So in the outline for True
Believer, Freddie lives and Freddie was living all the way
up until I got to that part in Odessa.

(48:59):
And I put Odessa in there because I've been to Odessa in
1993. I remembered it.
Same with Morocco. I've been to Morocco.
I traveled through there before I went in the military because I
wanted that World Travel experience that was that my
parents had essentially in the 60s before I joined this thing
called the military where I was going to have essentially no
rights for however long I was going to be in there.
No freedom, essentially. That's why I viewed it at the

(49:19):
time. So, so that's how Morocco got.
And I remember the sights, the sounds, the smell.
The same thing with Odessa. I'd been in the catacombs that
they used in World War Two there.
So were there and I'd been therepersonally.
So I remember the smells. I remember how it felt in there.
So I got to work all that stuff into, into into the novel.
So point being the outlines, things do change in those
outlines. And like, just like in the

(49:42):
Devil's Hand, those two guys that surveil Reese around in the
van in the Devil's Hand, those guys were 100% going to die.
It wasn't even a question. And then I put them in
conversation with one another throughout the book and I got to
like them. And by the time I got to park in
the outline where Reese is supposed to kill them, it no, I
couldn't kill those guys. They were too like I've gotten
to know them too well. They're a little bit goofy.

(50:02):
They weren't the brightest, or at least one of them wasn't, but
I liked them and so I I ended upnot not killing them.
So so things do morph and change.
The outlines are, are just a guide, but I find them, find
them helpful. I like to know where I'm going.
And that fits Reese, though, like you said, you only write in
universe. You having that idea is also
Reese's idea, like you're inhabiting him.
So yeah, you thank you for writing in Universe, because

(50:23):
that makes a better product for the fans instead of pandering to
some external political nonsense, you know?
Yeah, that's not good. That's not going to happen.
It's not. It's not in me.
Appreciate that and we appreciate you spending the time
with us. So thanks.
Thanks so much for coming on. We didn't get to talk too much
Mitch Rap years ago when we first spoke, we waxed poetic
about Mitch Rap and Vince Flynn,but we're getting new Mitch Rap

(50:44):
lives, the third book in the American Assassin trilogy.
So maybe we'll talk to you at some point about what you
thought of that, because I know you're also big fan.
Huge fan. I have all the the the Vince
Flynn, Mitch Rapps have the now I have the first editions to
include the first two term limits, first editions when he
published on his own and then the one that Emily Besler does
through Atria. So I have all those signed and

(51:05):
in my in my library and they have the honored position up
there. Now I'm collecting all those
books that were so influential to me growing up and I just in a
couple minutes we have left. Another thing might, people
might, might find interesting tothis one is that it was also
inspired by authors in the past.And, and for me, I feel so
fortunate that I got to grow up reading these guys that I got to
grow up reading the the Clanciesand the Demills and the Morels

(51:27):
when they were contemporary thrillers in the 80s.
Now they take you back if you'reto read them take you back to
the 80s in many, in many cases there.
But this one in particular, I thought, I want to do something
a little different with Cry Havoc.
I want to take an espionage story, which I haven't really
done before and drop that into the heart of the Vietnam War,
specifically the heart of Saigon, specifically in 1968,

(51:47):
which was the bloodiest year of the war.
So how do I do that? And I thought, no one's really
done this for a long time. And I don't know how many people
in my readership have, have readThe Quiet American by by Graham
Greene or have read I Had Tears of Autumn, even though I've,
I've referenced it many times in, in the past by Charles
Mccary, that was 1974. The, The Quiet America was 1955.

(52:08):
And then The Honorable Schoolboyby John Le Carre, which is 1977.
So we haven't had an espionage thriller in Southeast Asia for
quite some time, at least none that I've read or know of them.
They might have been some, but Idon't know them.
And so I wanted to do that. I wanted to, you know, build
upon what those guys essentiallyleft for me, what they taught me

(52:28):
because they became part of my experience very early on in
life, just as did the the masters from the from the
Clancy's to the Devils to the morals to the Louis Lemoore, to
AJ Pi, AJ Quinnell, JC Pollock, Mark Old and all these guys who
were so influential to me growing up to become part of my
experience. So I wanted to do a hat tip to

(52:49):
those guys and I talked about that in the acknowledgements and
authors note at the end as well.So wanted to drop this espionage
thriller into that, into the heart of Saigon.
So we'll see how see how people people react to it.
But certainly my heart and soul went into to every single word
in this book. Louis Lemoore, last of the breed
for that Siberia scene. I mean, look.
I wish they made that a movie. Well, I wish they made that a

(53:10):
movie in the 80s. You know, that would have been
amazing. I'm like, it was perfect timing
too. People are coming off the summer
of Rambo in 1885. And then you get, I think the
last of the breed was it maybe 86 paperback, maybe 87.
Anyway, it's in that time frame right there.
And Oh my gosh, that would have been so you.
Can relive it with with James Reese.
Very different take on it, but. You can.

(53:31):
Give an homage. You're definitely inspired and
I'll definitely talk about that.On the author's note, it'll be
the acknowledgements. And you know, tip my hat to a
little more in that book in particular, Last of the Breed.
Thanks so much Jack. We appreciate you taking the
time. It's always a blast.
Really enjoyed it. Yeah, thanks for all you guys do
appreciate everything. I always love talking books and
movies with you guys so so anytime, anytime.

(53:53):
Much appreciated. You guys take care.