Steve Berry - The Alexandria Link (Cotton Malone - Book #2)

Today we are joined by thriller fan and book reviewer - The Saturday Dad (@dad_saturday on twitter/X) to discuss The Alexandria Link by Steve Berry - book #2 in the Cotton Malone series.

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Episode Transcript

(00:16):
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
And welcome back to this week's No Limits the Thriller Podcast,
coming to you with an extra special guest tonight.
Why don't you introduce yourselffor our customers?
Yeah, sure. My name is Brandon.
Those of you who interact with me on X, you might know me as

(00:39):
Saturday Dad from posting all the book reviews and Saturday
Dad Reads newsletter on X comingat you live here from from
Pittsburgh this evening. So happy to be here on the
Thriller pod and, you know, talking Steve Berry in the
Alexandria link. Dude, super excited to have you

(01:01):
on here. Mike had mentioned that, you
know, we had read what was the first one called Templar Legacy.
Templar Legacy, yes. And he's been he was begging me,
begging me to to read these for years.
Yeah, finally, you know, he and he knows that I'm a big I love
Dan Brown. I love like that style of
thriller. But, you know, I hadn't really
had time to dig into those beingso immersed in this like, you

(01:25):
know, military, you know, espionage spy thing.
Finally we did it and loved it. And then he's like, yo, this guy
who's gone on Twitter says if you like that one, you you got
to read Alexandria link. So we're glad to have you here.
We're glad to talk about it. I, I don't know, Mike, you said
he's got a hopefully he's our height man.
I, I love this book. Did you not love this book?

(01:46):
OK, no, I'm glad I did. I did.
I was hoping to like it more than the first.
And I mean, we, we're going to that's.
Tough. That's tough.
It's, it's a tough thing to do. I I don't know.
I don't know if it tops the Templar legacy.
So I still love it. I love Steve Berry.
Yes. I was the one pushing us in that
direction. I had taken some time off from

(02:06):
Steve Berry for a little while and then when I finally got back
into him, it was just so cool that we did years of Brad Thor's
books and and he does a lot of the history stuff in those
angles. But Steve Berry like 10X is it.
He goes all in on the historicalnarrative, the historical
research where Brad dabbles in it and then he gets to modern
day politics a bit quicker or hedabbles in it and then, you

(02:29):
know, Scott has so many other things to deal with, like
pressing, you know, terrorist attacks and everything.
You couldn't like live in the history.
He did that earlier in his career.
Brad Thore, But Steve Berry, every single book lives in
history. The plot, the protagonist, the
main characters, the villains are all intimately tied to some
historical tidbit or nugget thatI mean, I just frankly want to

(02:49):
know more about. He did it with Templar legacy.
He does it here with the Libraryof Alexandria and then and the
the biblical scholarship. So love the history aspect.
What Steve Berry's doing, he does at the top of his game,
Best of the best in the world. It's other things, plot related,
a bit character and plot related, that bogged me down.
So I don't want to start negative.

(03:10):
We'll get into it. Yeah, I'm glad there's 2
Pennsylvania hype men over here for me.
Yeah, Brandon, what what, what do you think about it?
Give us your your hot take. Well, personally, I, I enjoyed
it more than the Templar legacy and for me Templar Legacy was
great, but I wanted more of the history in Templar legacy.

(03:31):
And I feel like what what reallyin a in a book like you had
mentioned Dan Brown in Dan Brown's books, like when he gets
into the nuances of like painting or like the symbol of
something that really draws me in.
And I feel like Steve Berry did that to a greater extent in the

(03:52):
Alexandria link then he did withthe Templar legacy.
It, it was there in the Templar legacy.
But this one, it just felt like there was all these different
threads that that sucked me in as far as like the historical
side of things. Plus you have the one big thing
too is what, what was huge for me is, is seeing how Steve Berry

(04:14):
takes something that you know, is, is lost to time and history
in in the Library of Alexandria and wanting to see like, what is
this going to look like coming from this guy's mind?
So that was that was a big piecefor me too, and wanting to see
what is going to be his take on it and how is he going to, you

(04:35):
know, how's he going to reveal that to us?
So that was, you know, that those sorts of things really
just were present in in the Alexandria link for me more so
than in the Templar legacy. And I'm I'm kind of with you
there too. There were there were a couple
things dialogue wise and maybe plot wise that that weren't
weren't there, but the historical side of things were

(04:58):
just really what did it for me in this one.
Yeah, I, I guess I see that and it's almost like, well, first of
all, it's very interesting that he decided to follow up his
first book, which is, you know, quote, UN quote, exposing the
the falsehoods of the New Testament, you know, of Christ,
you know, like the foundation ofthe church to then.

(05:19):
All right, I'm immediately goingto go to the the Old Testament
and tackle that. You know, one, that's super
interesting. But two, you're right in that
the first book was way more driven on like we didn't know
what, you know, the Holy Grail, like what, what was like what
the Templars knew. Like, you know, we knew it was
like something big, but that waslike kind of like the big plot

(05:43):
twist. I guess, you know, there was
some other ones, but whereas here it was kind of spilled very
early on, like what the twist was or not, not in not not the
big twist at the end that, you know, it was all orchestrated by
by Georgia Dodd, but that, you know, that where there was this,
you know, essentially the everything about the Old
Testament, it was written and itwas all fake.

(06:05):
And like, yeah, it kind of like got peeled back more and more as
we went along. But that wasn't what was driving
our suspense. And it does that make sense?
Am I correct in saying that? Yeah.
I think so. I'm I'm definitely with you
there. I, I do think, and I agree
completely, Brandon, I think thehistory in this book was, you
know, the ratcheted up the best you could possibly do is

(06:26):
ratcheted up and, and the fact that it spanned A wider
timeline, like you said, Chris, the Templar legacy was there's a
hidden secret which leads you tohidden treasure.
Someone wants to get rich. It's a treasure hunt.
And it's based on something the Templars did in this particular
time period, this book, the burning of the library had
consequences felt for thousands of years, you know, 2000 plus

(06:49):
years later, you know, to now. So I think the fact that a
historical event, that one is a mystery, a true mystery, no one
agrees what happened to it. Nobody knows what happened to it
that you could explore, but thenyou can also explore the fallout
of that and what they knew and over centuries how it impacted
the rise of Judaism in ancient days and then the rise of

(07:12):
Christianity and then more recently Islam.
And then to really link that to what Saudi Arabia and Israel are
doing, that modern day geopolitical posturing.
I thought you just with the history stuff spanned a much
wider time period that had a lotmore implications and definitely
relate to early 2000s when this book came out.
I'm I'm sure something with Gazawas going off.

(07:33):
I'm sure a whole lot of, you know, Israeli issues just like
today are going on. Not as big as the war now, but I
mean, it's a hot button issue. And he was able to tie that back
to so many different time periods in history.
And then it was really neat. I like when in this historical
faction, as Brad Thore calls it,you do get to blur the lines a
little bit. And so I was wondering about
these letters between Saint Jerome and Augustine.

(07:56):
Like, how do you think that's even related to the Library of
Alexandria? But he completely ties that
together, you know, however manycenturies later.
And it's fun to read their words.
And I'm thinking, is this fake? Is it real?
And thankfully, he tells us at the end, you know, that was all
his invention. And so I love when they take
that creative license. And it naturally ties in so well

(08:17):
to the plot. So history being tied in, I
thought was fantastically done. That's the big winner of this
book. The whole time I'm I'm reading
this and I'm like, how is he going to prove this?
Like it? Because he's, he's rolling out
all of these different things and it's making you think the
whole time, OK, what if, just what if?
And you keep thinking. And then and then you get to

(08:38):
that section where you, you're reading this exchange between
Saint Augustine and St. and Saint Jerome.
And you're like, wait a minute, like, is this like he had me?
I'm going to, I'm not going to lie.
He had, he had me, man. And I was.
And I'm reading. And then I get to the, I get,
you know, the author's note at the end.
And then you feel like duped, but at the at that point, like

(09:00):
you're like, that's just a, it'sjust wonderful storytelling at
that point to be able to, to weave all of these seemingly
different narratives together and all these historical facts
together and, and, and produce something completely brand new.
It's just it's, it's, it's fantastic.
And that was a little late in the book.
That was definitely past the halfway mark.

(09:22):
And then even being revealed that, you know, the big bad, the
villain in the chair, Herman, Was that his name?
Herman. Herman yeah, he is still
needing, he has the letters right.
He and he's had those letters for a while, but he still needs
the original copy of the Old Testament, a pre Christ 2000
plus year old document. And that's why he needs the

(09:45):
library. And that wasn't revealed until
3/4 through the book. So like there was pacing in
terms of rolling out the historythat kept me bought in because
all those little connections we didn't even know about through
the first half of the story. We were bought in because of
what's going on with Malone and Pam and Gary.
And I think a big winner of thisbook is Henrik Thorvaldsen.

(10:06):
Like those characters carried the book so well and blended
with the history and I bought it.
The problem was I don't know howmuch I bought into Daley's the,
the bad guy, Green's the good guy.
No, Green's the bad guy, Daley'sthe the good guy.
And then the vice president's the bad guy and Danny Daniels
comes out as a hero and he's thegood guy.
There was just a little on the, the domestic side of things,

(10:28):
right? The internal governmental
machinations were just one too many twists and turns, like 2
roller coaster for me. And I guess it kept it kept the
plot moving and I guess there are reasons it needed to be done
and everything got explained away.
There's a little bit of that too, that this Deus Ex mocking
of let's just have something or someone come in and explain the

(10:48):
last four or five action sequences because it didn't make
sense that this guy got shot. It didn't make sense that this
person survived. It didn't make sense that this
person let us live and just walked away.
Why'd you kidnap Gary and then just let him go?
And there were so many of these potholes in the action I was
thinking about. And then they just explain it
away when we get some new character giving us some

(11:08):
revelatory information. So a little bit too much of that
hand WAVY, explain it away. I'm sure it checks out, but
after that was done 4567 times, I was like, Green's good,
Green's bad, Dale is good, Dale is bad, vice president bad,
president good. I was just a little worn out by
that and I wanted more of the history.
I think that that piece to to your point about the, the

(11:30):
domestic side of things, I was thinking that, that that was
almost a way I feel like he had to get, you know, I feel like
Steve Barry had to get Cassiopeia VVIT into the story
somehow. And it, and I feel like that was
his way of kind of angling her in, you know, coming, coming to
Stephanie's rest, Stephanie outside the the the Washington

(11:50):
Monument and whatnot. But also to, you know, there's
that that point of I think that's a point in different
espionage novels that I've read where you're trying to create
this era of like people at the top levels of government don't
trust each other and that that becomes a story in and of
itself. But if it's not done well to

(12:11):
your point it just it it can getget your bogged down for sure.
Yeah, it felt a little extra. I, I, I felt like every time,
like there was a couple scenes with Stephanie where like I was
bought in. But most of the time whenever we
cut away from Malone, I was like, no, no, no.
Like I want to go back. And then at the very end, like,

(12:33):
I also want to address your comment, Mike, a little bit.
But at the very end, when we find out, like, George Haddad
reveals that in actuality, like,my quest was much longer and
much harder. Like, I had to make a hard
quest, but not, not too easy, not too hard.
I was like, I would have loved to have seen your quest, you
know, like exactly. I wanted George Haddad the whole
book. Like we spend so much time with

(12:54):
Daley and Green and the president, and it's like, I
would have wanted Haddad doing some of these things or instead
of Sabre, Sabre and Malone having to do all these things
and go on the quest. It's like, why did Georgia not
have to die? No, he's not dead.
So it just felt like another oneof those twists, which was a
grand reveal after we had four or five other twists, not to
mention the Pam twist, right? They they dropped that she's an

(13:17):
Israeli spy. I'm thinking, is she knowingly
in on this? And then we'd learn.
It's tied to the watch. So it's really smart writing.
It's almost like that Brad Thorecomplex of he's too smart
sometimes for for us mere mortals to keep up with how much
they want to pack into this plot.
It all checked out with the watch and the boyfriend who was
the Israeli guy. I get that.

(13:39):
But like it felt just like one too many twists are suspecting
Pam suspecting this person suspecting that person.
Then George Haddad is back. George Haddad set up the whole
thing. It was a wild goose chase.
And then again, hand WAVY. It has to explain that's why the
bodies were taken from the the site in London and that's why
other things were cleaned up andthat's why we let you walk and
just got hand WAVY when all thatwas told to us instead of being

(14:02):
shown to us through through the plot.
Yeah, I I think back to like thethe Templar, right, where the
big reveal was. It was his son, right?
Or it was her son right or Stephanie's son right.
But we didn't know that we were in his mind the entire time.

(14:23):
And I guess they it wouldn't have worked because they George,
he pretends like he's dead. But if is there a way that would
have been better If I don't know, not that I want to like
change writing this book, but you know, like, did you like it
better? I guess when we were inside
someone's mind, we didn't know who they were or where we had
this one where everything was playing out in the background.

(14:44):
And then we we got that full exposition dump at the very end.
I don't know. It's two, it's two different
ways of like playing that that style of a plot twist.
I usually lean away. I don't know about you guys from
the exposition dump at the end to explain it all.
There's a few authors who that'svery inherent to their their
craft and their style. It's something that I generally
don't like. I I don't feel like Vince often
did that. You knew where you stood with a

(15:06):
Vince Flynn book. You know, as it played out and
at the end you knew why everyonedid what they did.
You didn't need a big explanation, but it wasn't too
bad. Here.
I will say that it I'm, I'm, I'mcommenting on it.
I don't think it was so heavy-handed to really ruin the
book for me at all. It's it's definitely an amazing
book. I just think those are the
reasons it's slightly below Templar legacy and the other

(15:27):
reason the Templar legacy. I love living in that Abbey,
like you said, with Stephanie Nelson, who happens to be the
grandmaster. I really enjoyed that.
Abby is like a set piece. Herman and his mansion in
Austria. Vienna.
Yeah, it was Austria. Really cool with the butterflies
and all that. What did you think about setting
of this book and the globetrotting?

(15:48):
Because we know that's a big thing about Steve Berry.
Fan of it, especially when, whenit's got the, you get the nuance
to it, like you said, the, the butterfly garden in the, in the
mansion, the, the spot, you know, when they're in Portugal
and you know, they're, they're trying to, you know, find the

(16:09):
time of day when the light linesup just right to be able to
reveal the spot on the painting.And then I, I personally love
when you get all that expositionabout the, the painting and the,
the, the details of the architecture.
Those are the little things along the way that keep me
invested in, in what's going on And I, I really get a lot out of

(16:31):
that. And and I like, I like when,
when, when you're going to, you know, places that are off, off
the beaten path, so to speak. You know, like this was, you
know, Portugal, you, you know, you get a Middle East, you got
Vienna here. But looking looking ahead at
some of the some of his other, you know, Steve Berry's other

(16:51):
books, you know, he's got some places that I've got really cool
features that to, to get people to buy into a story and really
craft a great setting. So setting was, was solid for
me. I'm a fan of the I'm a fan of
the quest. Basically what I'm saying.
I, I like, I like it when an author gives me like these
little bread crumbs and like, wegot to go here and we do this

(17:14):
thing and then we've met our objective here.
We're going to go over to this place and just just keep giving
me that those, those little things.
I can see where you're going. We're trying to find the Library
of Alexandria. Give me all these little details
along the way, even going back to the very beginning of the
novel and they're in the mansionin England and they're trying
to, you know, to find the, the book and everything like that,

(17:37):
that kind of stuff. Give.
Give me that all day. I'm with you.
I specifically think the Portugal scenes and Belem and
that church, the windows, and I think those little quests are
done better than anybody. Any other author I've read does
it. And what Steve Berry does is
like makes it last. A lot of books there's a quest

(18:03):
that's so singular or there's one little puzzle piece or one
little clue. I guess Dan Brown as well.
Dan Brown and Steve Berry I think are the quest guys.
And I love, I love reading that as well.
That's my favorite part of this story probably is all the little
historical clues. Maybe that aspect is done better
here than the Templar legacy. Because in that one I remember
also having some quibbles about there's all these different

(18:26):
mansions across the French countryside and and it wasn't
too distinctive one from the other Here.
It's very distinct. Each location, like going into
Sinai at the end also is like sodifferent than where we just
were in Portugal. And I really do think the
setting is 1 of Steve Berry's strengths and the way he ties
setting to his plot. There's no way the history will

(18:47):
play out as it does if it's not intimately tied to these
locations. And like Brad Thore, real
locations, real research, real artwork, real statues, and you
can go see these things yourself.
I think that's just so exciting.I think that's that's another
hallmark of it too, is you know,when I'm reading this, if I'm
actively Googling the location on my phone while I'm reading

(19:11):
like they did a good job. Me is that you've done a good
job of creating a great setting because I want to.
I want to see it then. Exactly.
Yep, no, I want to. Go you can create a travel guide
if a If a thriller novel could have a travel guide companion,
you know you're doing something right.
Yeah, I think that that's where,you know, some of our other
author authors that we cover that shine with setting.

(19:34):
It's like you, you know, they nail it when you're it looked
like you said, intrigued about looking for wanting to go there.
I to me the the Sinai scenes andthe, you know, the construction
of this like, you know, sort of the entrance into the library.
Like to me, that was one of the coolest parts of this book.

(19:54):
Very harken back to, you know, like in the like in the last in
the last book. Going down into the into the
tunnels, finding that, you know,with the booby traps, it's very
Indiana Jones and national treasure esque, you know, like
that stuff. But yeah, 100% agree with the
with the church and then the cabinet line up with, you know,

(20:15):
a certain time and you know, I don't know, I love quest books
and I I hope that I'm assuming that all the books are, are like
this. So I think you I think Steve
Berry has a sucker in me. I'm going to start buying all
the books. Completely.
And Danny Daniels comes on strong and and Chris, Danny
Daniels, good president, really good president so.

(20:38):
It was interesting how he was introduced because we, I guess
we got this perception from Stephanie, right?
And and she, like, you know, thinks he's an idiot, you know,
like, and then I, I just assumedthat he was in all of it.
Like I, I just assumed he was part of like the bad cabal, you
know, and then to have that big turn around and for him to, you
know, we didn't even talk about the helicopter scene.

(21:00):
There's 2 helicopter scenes in this book 1 where like you have
the Secret Service come in and and have a shoot out in the
middle of where was that restaurant in the middle of like
West Virginia or. Somewhere outside of Camp David.
Yeah, it was like rural Maryland, or.
Something like that. Yeah.
And then we have the not, not a helicopter scene.
We have the the airplane jump where where Cotton pushes his

(21:21):
wife out of the of the back. But I, I wanted to, I forgot I
wanted to start the show with can you name how many times
someone tells Pam to just wait here 'cause it's I went, I tried
to go through, I, I didn't read the book how you listen to the
audio book, but I tried to go through and it's at least it's
at least 13 times that a character tells Pam to just wait

(21:46):
here and most. Of the time she shut her mouth.
And she doesn't wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's she's told to shut her mouth quite a few times, mostly
by Cotton, but I also like how Cotton isn't exactly a St.
He says like I screwed around inmy past as well.
It's not all Pam's fault that she slept with this dude, Gary's
father. And and that's another
interesting tidbit. I mean, sometimes the trope can

(22:08):
become these trained spy assassin, whoever you are.
Military guys can't have a family, they can't settle down,
it's too dangerous. But here their family is torn
apart for external reasons. It relates to the job because of
the stress that they were under as a couple.
But it's also like it's not really his biological son, but
is it? And I think that is unique

(22:30):
compared to a lot of other protagonists and their families,
the same way the bookseller is unique.
You know, his his bookshop in Copenhagen, which is rest in
peace. Fun scene there in the opening
too, with with the bombing of the shop and then Pam having to
escape. You kind of forget those early
scenes, even the Bainbridge stuff with which plays a huge
role at the end, getting throughthe tunnels in the secret

(22:50):
passages in Sinai. I just some of that early stuff
gets forgotten because the book gets a little long winded.
But I think the family dynamics in the last book, it was
Stephanie Nell's family, her relationship with her son and
everything. Here they're really digging into
Cotton's family and as as you know, Brandon throughout the
series that plays a big role, his relationship with his son,

(23:11):
particularly because we go back in time quite a bit in a few
books and now almost what is, what is it 20 plus books in the
series like? There's a lot more story to be
told about this family. I think, I think that was a,
that was a cool dynamic and thatwas, you know, it made me, it
made me think of like, 'cause I,I finished, I finished Alexandra

(23:32):
Link and then picked up Brad Taylor's 11 Rough Man right
after it. And, you know, he's got a female
companion in that as well. And it it really made me think
about this, a different dynamic.And at first I was like, why?
Why is this lady along for the ride?

(23:53):
Like she was just, she felt likedead weight.
But once, once you find out thatshe, you know, is involved in
the whole thing, I was like, OK,I kind of get it now.
But also that was, you know, my 1 complaint was like some of the
dialogue between Cotton and her.At times.
I was like, and you know, to your point then, you know, stand

(24:13):
here, wait here, you know, stop talking, that kind of stuff.
I was like that, that if I had one major complaint, it would
be, it would be that just the dialogue between the two of
them. But, you know, I, I like the way
things kind of resolved and, youknow, at the end and, and how
she was actually, she became an important part of Cotton, you

(24:34):
know, in his success ultimately at the end.
Yeah, for sure. She I think they not like, you
know, the cliche thing would be they would get back together.
But I think at the very end, they've at least you have come
to some sort of treatise or truth in their hatred for each
other and realizing that, you know, they may not love each

(24:54):
other. They may not, you know, want to
be together anymore, but they definitely love each other.
And they knew they, you know, need to be there for for Gary.
Yeah. It's interesting how this book,
you know, it's set right post 911 Britain 2007, but it
homeless like reads like an old James Bond type novel or like
Indiana Jones, you know, being set in that time period.

(25:16):
I guess because we are going back in the past with, you know,
just some of the content. But I guess, you know, just the
interactions between everybody just seem a lot more don't quite
seem 2007 esque. You know, that makes sense.
Yeah. At the end, he's like, do you
have communication equipment here?
I'm like, OK, be like, do you have cell reception here?

(25:37):
Do you, do you get 5G out here in the middle of Sinai?
Because 2007, that was the firstiPod was about to come out.
Like, you know. Yeah, first iPhone.
Is like first iPhone, sorry. It feels like the world of
pagers, you know, where nobody can, like, call anybody on a
cell phone and, like, you don't have full information about
another person. Yeah, it felt a little outdated
for sure. Everybody's still got dial up

(25:58):
access, so Yep. Yeah, good book.
I mean, I didn't like it as muchas the Templar Legacy, but from
what I know about the rest of the series, it's definitely top
half. It's like it's above middle of
the pack. So I think this book as a second
book does enough to say I absolutely want to keep going
where sometimes, Chris, you know, on the pod we found second

(26:20):
books to be a little hard to getthrough.
I wouldn't call this, even though I'm criticizing it, I
wouldn't call this a second bookslump at all.
So. Brandon, how many of them have
you read? So I've actually only read
Templar legacy and Alexandria length, but I I picked up the
Venetian betrayal last night. So I guess, you know, Steve, I

(26:40):
think the his next book, it's onthe it's something about the
Medicis is is about to be released.
So my live local library had like a huge Steve Berry display
last night when I was there. So I picked that one up is into
which I'm finding I and I started to read it.
So this one's kind of got the, you know, Venetian betrayal
still staying in like that ancient times with Alexander the

(27:01):
Great and stuff like that's the tie in there.
But I wanted to see, you know, how you guys have read, you
know, obviously a couple more ofthem is the the fire thing at
the beginning of of each novel. Is that like a static thing?
Because the first, the first book you know, starts off with a
fire. The second one starts off with a
fire. The third one starts off he's in

(27:22):
a museum and wakes up surroundedby fire.
I can't remember details well enough to know if it's always a
fire, but I will say there's always that Cotton wants to kind
of just go back and be the bookseller, like the bookshop in
Kogan, and he gets pulled back is like an anchor, and he's
almost always pulled out of there.
So yeah, I, I maybe haven't recognized the fire thing or I
don't remember well enough, but it's like Robert Langdon, you

(27:44):
know, he's he's swimming those laps in the morning, gets the
phone call and you. Know, or it's like Ethan, he's
always just, you know, like, yeah, you know, he gets sent
some tape in the middle of nowhere and it explodes or
something, right? And Brad Thore, it's like Gary
Lawler calling Scott in the Carlton group.
Yeah, I feel like that's part ofthe hero's journey.
You know, it's the call to action.

(28:05):
It's, you know, the shake up of your comfortable reality.
You're not going to go out and be a hero.
Go on this question list, You you get that call.
So, yeah, that's a good. That's a good point, Brandon.
We're going to look out for thatmoving forward.
Yeah. I forget.
I forget every book. But it it it's a trope.
It's a trope, definitely that he's pulled out of the
bookstore. Yeah.
Yeah. Because I was, you know, you,
I'm reading the, the, the, the version of the Alexandria link

(28:28):
that I, that I had had, like the, the preview of the Venetian
betrayal in the back of the book.
So naturally, I, I started reading it and I was like, man,
this, this is starting off like eerily similar to leaves
Alexandria, like cause only thistime he like is unconscious
inside of a museum in, in Copenhagen and he wakes up in

(28:50):
the museum's on fire and he's got to escape the museum.
So it's like, OK, I wonder if this is going to be a thing
moving forward. Yeah, it's a good, it's a good
catch. The other thing I I think I read
all the Cotton Malone books at various stages.
It's been a while, but I haven'tread any of the Cassiopeia
books. I know she got her own spin off
series, Steve Berry and MJ Rose,and they wrote a few books

(29:12):
together in the Cassiopeia series, which I mean, she's so
awesome it's kind of a shame she's sidelined here.
Sure. Like Henrik sending her as
Stephanie Nell's bodyguard, if you will, you know, is cool, but
it really takes a backseat to how awesome she was in the first
book and will be in the future. So I think that's another tiny,

(29:34):
tiny complaint to have about thebook is I know where where
Cassiopeia will be moving forward and to not get a lot of
her here was kind of disappointing.
But Henrik Torvaldsen made-up for that for me.
I I thought Henrik and Gary particularly were were
outstanding here. If there was one plot line I
wanted to be pulled away from the main action for it was to

(29:55):
see what Henrik Torvaldsen was doing to one up her mom.
I I thought that was phenom phenomenally done.
He's a, he's a really well done character and he's, he is
always, always like 1 step aheadof, of anything, you know, the,
the antagonist is doing. And there's that, there's a,
that, that scene when him and Gary are hiding out in the

(30:16):
library and they're overhearing that conversation.
It's just so like you, it's, it's so suspenseful and you're
just waiting on them basically to get busted for being there.
You just, you can just tell us it's about to happen and like,
and then to go from that into that, you know, the, the
dialogue, because I believe that's, that's how it happens.

(30:37):
They, they overhear the conversation with the vice
president and then they go, it goes right into the, the letters
between Saint Jerome and Saint Augustine.
And so to to have those two things build off each other,
just that that was a fantastic scene in the book for me.
And to go a step further, the president was talking earlier
with Stephanie Nell about how they're going to catch Daily or

(30:59):
Green to find out who the traderis or if there's another trader
like the vice president. And it's, I think Henrik's phone
call, he because he he calls it into I think Green and then
nothing gets done with that. So the president knows that
Henrik reported this information, but Green doesn't
tell the president. Green goes to the vice president
and use that as the reason to hit daily and try to continue

(31:22):
going after Stephanie. So I think all three plot lines
tied in the history, tied in real well with what Henrik's
doing to try to stop her mom. And then that also tied into the
president trying to do this quasi mole hunt to find out
who's after Stephanie and who's trying to take him down.
And so I I think that was a partof the book.
I really appreciate it if I didn't jive with all three of

(31:43):
these competing storylines at all times.
I am bought into how they interconnect and how they weave
together. It all checks out.
So it's not too big a Ding. Speaking of buying, do you want
to you want to get into the scorecard, Mike?
Let's do it, Let's do it. Brandon, how familiar are you
with the scorecard? We can walk you through it as we
go. I think you're going to have to
walk me through it, guys. I'm familiar with your

(32:03):
scorecard, but I do not remembereverything that is on your
scorecard. Sure.
We're going to get 50 points. I'm going to insert a column to
the left and we're going to giveyou a little column here on our
sheet. You can't see, but I don't see.
So it's 50 points. 1st 2 are 10 points.
That's action slash suspense. We've had to add that with doing

(32:26):
some of these books like this. The second one is plot.
Third one is buy in. Mike, you do the best of
describing like buy in. Well, you want to do it as we
go. We'll start with action plot for
10 points. All right, Yeah, let's do that.
All right, let's. What do you say, Brandon?
You're a guest. 10 points. What do you give action?

(32:46):
A plot for the Alexandria link. Action and plot I'm going to go
can I do half points? Yes.
If the committee approves, yes, I'm.
Going to go 8.5 there. I, I'd like the, the action was
fast-paced, you know, from from start to finish.
But some of the action scenes like like you had mentioned

(33:07):
earlier, it's kind of like where, where are we going with
this? Like it just kind of felt like
we needed to have some sort of ashootout or a helicopter scene
here at some point. So I'm going to go, we'll go 8.5
with that. I did, I do think the, the
opening sequence of, you know, Saber and his squad trying to

(33:30):
flush Cotton and and Pam out of the the bookshop.
I thought that was particularly well done.
But yeah, 8 point. 5 for me. Fair.
Good score, good score. Fair you, Mike.
I agree. It's in that range.
I'm going to go slightly lower. I'm not going to give it that
extra half, so I'm going to go down to 8.
I do think that opening scene might have been my favorite of

(33:53):
the action, kind of gets drownedout if you forget about it later
on. But it was really gripping way
to open the book. I think a couple of them seemed
inconsequential, like Gary beingtaken.
I thought that was a real interesting showdown of him
being kidnapped and then the kidnapper.
But then it just kind of falls apart.
You get explained like I, we lethim get away anyway.
It's part of the plan. So too many of the action scenes

(34:15):
ended up being a little inconsequential, and maybe
because I remembered something about that I didn't buy in as
much as I was reading it. So I'm just going to go 8 on
action. Yeah, we normally don't do point
like .2 fives, but I'm like kindof in the middle of you 2.
But I guess I guess I'll round up to to 8.5.
I'll be with you right now. You know, just you know, it's

(34:35):
it's solid. I think there's some definite
plot holes and some some things that I wasn't driving with all
throughout. And so because of that, I, I,
I'm going to, I'm digging a point in half, so.
Plot 10 points for the plot. It could this could include
pacing, a little bit of dialogueand just the general overview of

(34:57):
did you buy into this idea of the lost scrolls of at the
Alexandria library directly wereimpacting, you know, the Saudis
bulldozing this town and the Israelis claiming the land of
Palestine. What do you think about the
whole plot? Brandon 10 points.
Good 9 here, you know, like I said before quest man, give me

(35:18):
give me all those little bread crumbs that live that are
leading me to the the library ofAlexandria.
The only thing that I mentioned this earlier that I didn't I
didn't buy into all the way is, you know, the the lack of trust
or the the feigned lack of trustat the high levels of
government. You know that that part of like
the all the different levels of subterfuge and you know, he

(35:39):
thinks that I know that I'm going to go do this and like,
what is it called game theory orsomething like that and trying
to anticipate your, your opponent's next move like that.
That part wasn't, wasn't it for me.
But if, if, if that part, you know, if you, if you take
because it felt like those you have the main Cotton and Pam
storyline, obviously, and then you have the, the Cassiopeia and

(36:02):
Stephanie storylines running parallel to each other.
If you just gave me Cotton and Pam, I'm still probably going to
give it a nine to. Sure.
Yeah, I think like that's, you know, this is I'm and this is
bleeding into the body. Like I'm love, love the quest,
love the idea of the quest. I think it got bogged down with,

(36:24):
you know, the this sort of thirdaction.
I I, I, I do enjoy the Torkelsonand you know, that they sort of
the Austria scenes and that kindof stuff.
But, you know, I'm just the whole domestic side of it.
But I understand that they couldkind of like, now you're saying
that I didn't realize that dailywas going to become an important

(36:44):
character down the road. So like, I guess in retrospect,
like some of this domestic stuffis more important than you
actually think while you're reading the novel.
But yeah, so I think I'm going to, I'm going to go a little bit
lower. I'm going to go and eat.
Yeah, I, I, I want to go lower than an 8 because that's like
somebody has to come in and justlike fix everything or explain

(37:07):
it away. And like, Haddad was the
librarian at the end, I thought was just a little cheap to like
that he masterminded this whole thing so that Pam, Saber and
Cotton would come there together.
He expected them to come together and then he was going
to work it all. All that, yes, is where I'm
going to dig it. But I, I really don't think I
can go lower than an 8 because Iabsolutely bought into all the

(37:29):
Old Testament stuff. Like we said, the writings of
Jerome and Agustin absolutely bought into it.
All the little clues to put the puzzle pieces together to find a
copy of this Old Testament and where the translations wrong and
the implications of what could happen if the translations were
the the correct translation was uncovered.
And indeed, the Holy Land for Jews and possibly Christians is

(37:51):
in Saudi Arabia, where Mecca is.It sounds preposterous, but
Steve Berry packaged that up with all the historical details
and. But all of that is based on
like, I mean, it's not based on truth.
It's based on like or that book Like I I like.
That's the other thing I feel like with Steve Berry, at least
what he did from the Knights Templar in this one, is that it

(38:11):
seems like he finds that like one text that he reads and he's
like, wow, boom. I like that.
I'm going to make a story out ofit.
And then, you know, obviously hedoes all of his research around
it, but that one text is very, very central.
And then he obviously takes creative license, you know, like
with with the notes. But I liked how, and it's kind
of like doing the service of like, Hey, I read this.

(38:33):
I liked it so much. I think you should go read this
this novel to read some of my myresources.
So. And maybe it's true that he
finds that element of the maybe it's true like you could you
could read so much stuff be likewild conspiracy theories.
This is all a fake novel fiction.
I don't like it. Or you could say, what can we
learn from this? You don't have to buy it hook,

(38:54):
line and sinker. The whole theory doesn't have to
check it every fact. I don't I'm not an expert who's
going to say it's right or wrong, but I can enjoy the
theory. And what if it's true?
It is. This is like what if.
This is like the Marvel Universeis what if for historical
thrillers. It's and it's incredible because
every single one of those stories has an element of truth
like the what if works because there's something about that

(39:16):
superhero or character that you could see really playing out
this way. And it doesn't in the regular
MCU. But let's go tell some wild
stories of if it did well, all these things that Steve Berry's
writing and researching maybe didn't happen in our reality, in
our universe historically, exactly as described.
But we can really play with thisidea of if it's true, what would

(39:36):
it have meant for the world today?
How would it have impacted, you know, the Middle Eastern
politics going back to 1948 in the Nakba?
So I, I, I absolutely love that part.
So I want to Ding plot for a couple things that pulls me up a
little. So I'm going to stick with that.
8 And it also pulls me up on buyand I'm going to be a little
more friendly here. I know I've been negative, but

(39:58):
I'm going to go 4 out of five onbuy and buy in Brandon's five
points. And it's a combination of.
Did you buy into just what the plot is selling, what the
motivations are of the characters and how it's
progressing? But buy in could also be as you
were reading it as a reader, where you bought in, did the
book like catch your attention? So I'm making up ground there.
This might be a three on. I don't care about daily.

(40:19):
I don't care about green. A couple of like too many
reveals, too many of these random twists out of the blue
that explained things away kind of ticked me off.
But I'm making up for that because as I'm reading it, I'm
like, Oh my God, you know, this is explosive and I want to know
more. So I'm going 4 out of five on
buy in. I think I'd have to go a four
there as well. In Full disclosure, I started

(40:41):
and stopped reading this a couple of different times.
I grabbed it from the library, you know, months ago, read like
that opening sequence with with George Haddad and the what's the
guardian who shows up? And that was as far as I got and
then got it, you know, this, youknow, back in May and, and, and

(41:03):
just blew through it. I don't know what it was that
caused me to stop reading the first time, but the second time,
like I was, I was hooked from start to finish.
Like I wanted to like I was rooting for Cotton to to, you
know, to make his way, you know,through all the different, you
know, pieces of his little questthere.

(41:25):
And, and I was I was invested in, I was invested in what was
happening next. Like I wanted to see, you know,
where do we go from Belem? You know, what it what it and
the the payoff is going to be. I get to see what the library of
Alexandria looks like coming from, you know, Steve Berry's

(41:45):
mind. Like that for me is a huge
payoff. You know, you have nobody knows
what this thing actually looked like, what all was there.
But we get to see, you know, what is, how is he going to
portray this, this wonder of theancient world?
So, you know, I'm, I'm going to go for there too, just because
I, I wanted to, I, I was invested in the payoff at the

(42:06):
end. And the Guardians were so cool.
You mentioned the Guardians the way that they can invite people
like one or two every century orwhatever it was.
I I thought the Guardians and how they've kept us alive is the
coolest thing ever. Yeah, that and like the lore
that like, you know, naming all of these famous intellectual
people throughout history, like they were selected by Guardians.

(42:30):
Yeah, they were invited. Ben Franklin, Copernicus, like,
you know, essentially all of ourancient, I guess, fathers of,
of, you know, various institutions, right.
Yeah, I'm, I'm with you guys on the floor.
I, I think you guys have said itall.
It's I couldn't stop reading this book.

(42:51):
Like I crushed it. I I started reading it on my
drive home from the beach on Sunday and then just blew
through it and it's a long book.It is, yeah.
I, I could not put it down. So their next category is
villains, bad guys. So who, who is the bad guy here?

(43:14):
I guess it's, it's green. It's the vice president.
It's what's his name the the Austrian guy.
Sabre. Well, Sabre?
Yeah, Herman, Yeah. What?
What did you guys, I don't know,Brandon Eagle first.
What did you think of this cabalof of various bad guys?
5. Points also this this one might

(43:37):
I might go a little bit lower onbecause I feel like the the
order of the order of the GoldenFleece and the the talons of the
Eagle. I feel he left.
I feel like Steve Berry left a little bit on the table there.
I feel like they're they could have done a lot more with that.
And the way that he set it up inthe beginning before you find

(44:02):
out that Henrik Thorvaldsen is, is a part of it, it it it had
the potential to to it really feels ominous.
And then once you find out that Thorvaldsen's in it and he's
like a force for good in it, it kind of feels like it loses a
little bit of its its teeth and and Dominic Sabre kind of just

(44:25):
was the I don't know. He felt like too too
stereotypical, like bad guy in AI.
Don't know. He just he just didn't do it for
me. He he just didn't play play the
foil to to Cotton Malone at thatpoint in time.
And like I said before, the, youknow, with Green in the, the

(44:46):
domestic side of things, at first I thought he was, I
thought he was the good guy. I thought.
He was good. I thought he was going to help
Stephanie. Yeah, I actually really, I was
like, oh, I like this character.Like the scene where they where
they show up at at his house in in the middle of the night.
Exactly. You know, he's hiding, helping
them hide out there. And I'm thinking the whole time,
OK, Oh, this guy really isn't that bad.

(45:07):
Like he's kind of, you know, he's going to work with
Stephanie and you know, but I think I just feel like there was
there was something that could have been done to make the order
of the golden Fleece and the talons of the eagle just a
little bit more. I guess the word would be give
it, give it more teeth, like give them more fierce.
Yes, that you know, more almost more like, I don't know, like

(45:31):
that evil shadow organization. But I, I do like the fact that
Thorwaldsson, like he's infiltrated it basically.
So you've got a man on the inside, you know, working for
you too. So kind of go, I'm going to go 3
on this one. OK.
Yeah. Yeah, You know, you know, what's

(45:52):
funny is that I, I thought everytime they referenced the Towns
of the Eagles, I like, kind of like laughed because it was.
It's like what how do you have someone named the towns of the
Eagle? And it's like Dominic Saber,
like, I don't know, he was so swirmy and and slimy and you

(46:12):
know, I guess, you know, he had this special forces background.
Obviously he's he's think he's super smart.
He's able to outsmart all these people.
He just didn't fulfill like those shoes that I think Steve
Barry wanted him to be like. So I'm definitely agreeing
there. And I was shocked.
Like it was a jaw-dropping moment when Dorclason said oh,

(46:35):
like, I'm, I'm in it. And then I was like, wait, is he
bad? Like.
Yeah, that was big. But then I, I think, you know,
while it's cool, you know, I liked everything there.
I definitely think you're right.But it like kind of undercuts
the big bad of it of all this, you know, like the Spectre, you
know, organization, because essentially they're just rich

(46:59):
guys who want to make make moneyright there.
The only one who's willing to kill anybody is is, you know,
the blue chair, like the blue chair.
That was intriguing when we're starting it off, you know, like
the explaining the circle and you know, the they put on this
chain with the fleece and the different chairs and there's a
blue chair. Like I was like, oh, sick, this
is cool. And then it just kind of fell

(47:22):
fell a little flat for me. So I'll I'll see you with the
three. I agree with you.
I. Agree.
They're gathering. At first we're referring to them
as the blue chair and then the other robes.
I thought, this is like some super secret Society of these
power brokers and these elites. Then we never really see them
interact. There's a few conversations,
very short dialogue, like at thetable, but it's very clear that

(47:45):
he just wants to hijack it for himself.
And I would have liked like a cabal of these people, each who
play a role, you know, pulling strings, maybe someone
challenging his authority, stepping up to the plate a
little more inner dynamics of that group, creating that fear
that or maybe Henrik Torvaldssonto also be in a little bit more
fear because he's just kind of freewheel.

(48:06):
And I, I get that he brought Gary as like this kind of
safeguard, almost this insuranceplan of like, you can't touch me
because I'm here and everybody'swatching and all the other
chairs will know what you do. But I thought the stakes could
have just been a little higher moving about the mansion and and
like when they had a face to face, I was didn't feel like the
highest stakes. And I think Brandon, that goes
to your point of like it didn't instill that fear in me.

(48:29):
And then Dominic Sabre, same thing.
He was playing as this McClellanwith his real name, whatever it
was. So the whole time I'm not really
too fearful of him because he just seems almost clownish and
he never really showcases his skills in a in a truly scary
way. He was too.
He was almost too reliant on, hecouldn't, he couldn't make moves

(48:50):
independently. He, he was too reliant on, you
know, having to mirror whatever Cotton was doing.
And because of that, he just, hecouldn't, you know, he couldn't
act as an independent contractor.
And none of the other hench men his hench men.
He just offs a few of them I guess.
That's the only time I guess we're supposed to really feel

(49:11):
true, you know, fear for him in,in the sense that, you know, he
sends, like, in the 11 case, right?
He sends these two people in andthen he comes in and shoots
them. And then that's to try to get on
Malone's good side, you know, sort of like a showcase of, oh,
shit, he's this guy's crazy. But I don't know, it just.
Yeah. He even kills the guy who took

(49:32):
Gary towards the beginning rightwhen they're handing off Gary.
I just feel like one too many times we don't see him operate.
We just seen him see him clean up and I feel like if he had to
do some intense operations I might have been more bought into
his his skill set. I kind of was OK with the idea
though of he had the quest so heknew certain things.

(49:56):
Cotton couldn't complete his quest without him, but he
couldn't complete it without Cotton and his mind the only
reason. He has the quest is because of
George Haddad. Let him have it.
That's, that was my my problem, which was like, that was all
just undone by George. Haddad wanted to get him here.
I thought that was a cop out, one too many of those cop outs.
But yeah, if we're just going with villains, 3 is probably

(50:20):
yeah, I'll join you guys. 3 is probably it.
Good guys. We're going to make up some
ground, though. Am I going 5?
I might. A Cassiopeia was kind of given a
back seat. I got to go 4 1/2.
Dang it for not yeah, she's one of my favorite characters from
the last book. I don't know, like, you know,

(50:44):
even though like Pam was a little annoying, like I I
thought that, you know, she was kind of needed because Cotton
can be pretty like, like arrogant and it was kind of like
Comic Relief. I think getting to see
Thorgleston more, you know, while he was a big player in the
last book, like I think he he definitely shined more, you
know, closet, you know, I'm going to I might just steal him

(51:06):
right now for my free space. But you know, Gary Malone, you
know, just especially the I don't know if you listen to
audiobooks at all, but the way that Scott Brick, he's the the
narrator for this this series, the the way he speaks Gary's
dialogue, he he speaks like a younger, essentially a younger

(51:26):
Cotton yes, and he nails like. He does.
It's. Great.
And he has like the same arrogance, even though, like we
find out that, you know, Gary doesn't have any blood of, of
cotton. He is Cotton's son because, you
know, he's cotton. Yeah, so.
And when he, when he attacks theguy, Cotton's even like he's
like, I want to chastise him. Like I don't want him to be in
danger, but he's like, that's myboy.

(51:48):
I'm proud. I'm proud of him.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think we got five. Wow.
I think I'm going to go, I'm going to go 4 1/2 on this one
too. There were, like I mentioned
before, it's just some of the, some of the dialogue between
Cotton and Pam kind of drove me nuts a little bit.
But I, I did really like the emergence of of Henrik Thorvall

(52:09):
Thorvinson in this one. You know, like you said, he was
a big player in the first one, but just his role, his role in
this one felt so integral to theplot that I and I just really
like the, the emergence of his character and, and being being a
guy, you know, on the inside of that, of the Order of the Golden

(52:32):
Fleece. Like just, yeah, he's, he's like
your ultimate trump card. Like, he's the best.
He's the best friend you could have, like in your back pocket,
really. Right.
Yeah, agreed. I think those are the two
winners, Henrik and Gary. Another Ding on bad guys not to
take us back but it it reminded me is the Austrian's daughter

(52:53):
who I feel like Steve Berry justgot so annoyed in writing this
character that he just like decided to write her off book
and have Doris and kidnap her and she never shows up again.
It was weak. I completely forgot that she was
even in the book. Yeah, exactly.
It was weak, but there's this. They just.
Needed her as a bargaining chip.Yeah, but they're setting it up
to be like this in the beginning, like they were

(53:14):
setting up this dialogue betweenher and her dad, right?
And that you know. She might take over.
Or you know, I, I, I thought there was going to be like a
Game of Thrones style, you know,there's so many players in this
thing, like who's backstabbing who, you know, so.
I no, I agree with you. I was thinking the setup was
there. They even talked about how
letting women into the order, the golden right happened, and
that allowed her to gain a position where it could one day

(53:37):
happen. She was going to make moves.
I I think that was mishandled. Yeah, you're right.
Another winner, a dark horse winner though, and reason why I
like that 4 1/2 score for good guys.
Danny Daniels comes on strong. I was like they said, Chris, I
wasn't sure at first. Is he good?
Is he bad? Is he a note?
Is he a nothing president? He even says like Stephanie, you

(53:58):
think I'm weak and feeble and you know, I'm a second term
president. You think I, you know, not going
to get anything done. I'm lame duck.
And he just, he just essentiallyjust drops his Dick on the
table. Like he just lays it all out
there. He's like, boom, he, he just
puts it all out there and I, I, he lays the smack down on

(54:19):
attorney general. Is that what Daley was or Green?
Who's in charge of majority was now attorney Stephanie Guitar.
General Daley was the DNI, or Deputy D.
And I got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I just think he just puts it all out there, comes on
strong, definitely has a presence and.
And Camp Davidson is always enjoyable.
I thought that was a, a nice little scene, the conversations

(54:41):
with Stephanie and he filled in the gaps and he ultimately knew
more than he was letting on. And so I, I thought Danny
Daniels could be a, you know, a dark horse for one of the better
good guys. Yeah, good, Good call.
All right. We kind of already talked about
it, but you know, I guess we gotto give it a score.
What did you guys think of the setting?
This is also out of five. Settings A5 for me Yeah, You got

(55:04):
the you got Bill M you've got the the Western Sinai.
And like I said, anytime you cantake me to one of those off the
beaten path places, you you giveme all the little the
descriptions are there and if I'm actively looking it up while
I'm reading, you've done your job. 5 for seven for me.

(55:25):
Yeah, 100%, you said. Well, what about you, Mike?
Really. You're not going 5 I'm.
Going to go 4 1/2. I think there's a game in there.
I and I can't put my finger on what the Ding is.
You know, it's like it factor. It's the IT factor.

(55:46):
It's like there's a 10th of a point in a couple of different
spots and it all adds up. For example, I like the
Bainbridge house. I was so bought into his mansion
in the beginning in the statue and like I thought all the
little clues and puzzles were going to be there.
And a big part of the book is going to be decoding that, you
know, that house and then it like tangentially gets mentioned

(56:08):
at the end and he remembers the sequence of letters and helps
him do the thing. So I felt like it was good, but
it could have been great. And how it gets tied in later.
I thought Bell M was the best part.
Portugal, if he did the way he did that was, was it a cathedral
or a monastery? That big monastery down there.

(56:29):
If I thought a couple other scenes were as good as that one
was, I would easily go 5. But all the other ones had like
1/10 of a point missing. For example, in Vienna with him
sitting in the in the garden with the butterflies, I thought
could be a 5 out of five, but then I didn't know where Henrik
and Gary were at the time. It's like, and then there's that

(56:49):
big library or area where he hasthe the books that they steal or
the documents that they steal, Icouldn't quite picture of.
Like it's this mansion with thisgarden with these other rooms.
And I'm sure these chambers wereall the order of the Golden
Fleece people are living. It could have been like a really
cool set action piece, but I couldn't picture it.
I didn't think there was enough descriptive language about how
you move about this building andhow you move about the space.

(57:11):
We were just told we're in the gardens at the mansion and then
we're in this room at the mansion.
Then we're in this room at the mansion.
And I only have like a quasi sense of what it's like.
So I think there's just I, I can't put my finger exactly on
it, but it's, it's, it's not as good as I know Steve Berry can
do. And as I've seen some other
authors do, like when Brad Thor's hitting at his finest, I
just feel like this does not have that edge.

(57:34):
So 4 1/2 not a big thing. So we love covers on this
podcast. We love him so much.
We love to judge the cover by the book.
And so this is out of five points and here we.
Go. It's more so one.

(57:54):
Is it a good cover, you know, doyou think?
But does does it ring true to what the essence of the book is?
I don't know. We, we kind of started down this
rabbit hole because, well, one, we started this podcast during
COVID and we were just trying tolike figure out like, you know,
like what we're doing. We start talking about covers.
And in the beginning we talked about Mitch rap and for some

(58:19):
reason there was always one cover.
It was typically like the mass market paperback that would just
have like something completely random, like like a guy walking
through power lines or a train in the snow when there was no
train or snow in the entire novel.
The novel took place in the desert, you know, and we would

(58:39):
just crap on these novels. And so they kind of like became
our our shtick. And so now we we do it.
It's part of the scorecard here.So, you know, I we definitely
heavily weight the AB and C covers because those are those
tend to be the obviously A is the initial hardcover, B is
typically the the second year paperback and then C is some

(59:02):
sometimes it's the. Like a reprint.
A reprint. So I don't know, Brandon, why
don't you, since you're a guest,you give us your first take on
the covers? So am I?
Am I giving a score on the coverout of five or?
Potentially, yes, yes. Eventually, yes, but we want to
know like you can vamp, vamp about like.

(59:24):
Heavily. Your score heavily has to be
relying on really A&B because those are the most well known
covers. What if there's something in the
others that calls out to you? That could be a boost or a Ding.
Got it. I got to be honest, guys, I'm
not a fan of these covers really.
I I don't know like B. So cover B is is the one I had

(59:49):
and I don't know what it is but like if I'm looking at if I'm
looking at BI, can't really tellit just looks like a cave to me.
Yeah, you're right. You know, it just looks, it just
looks like a cave. So I, I think, you know, I'm,
I'm biased because that's the one that I read.

(01:00:10):
Sure, no, that that definitely. But I do like that happened
before. I, but I do, I do like the
aspect of a because you, you canclearly see something is burning
there. But you also need the context of
OK, I need to know that the library of Alexandria burned.

(01:00:33):
So I feel like I, I don't know what my suggestion would be to,
to change it or or improve it, but I feel like you here's what
here's what you can get out of it.
If you look at it, you're like, I'm, I'm going to probably going
to be reading some sort of adventure novel.

(01:00:53):
If I'm unfamiliar with Steve Berry, I can tell that I'm
getting myself into some sort ofsomething dealing with ancient
history. It it looks, it just got the old
look. I can see it looks like I'm not
sure what you know and B what what script we've got there let
you know underneath where it says the Alexandria link.
But no, it's in terms of of overall covers, guys, I'm, I'm

(01:01:18):
looking at like a 2 1/2 and theyjust don't do it for me.
They just don't pop. They just don't pop.
All right, Mike, I feel. Like I'm given the sense I'm
annoyed. No, I I hear you on all of it.
All of your individual points are really valid.
I think the one bit of context I'm going to add is that, like

(01:01:39):
Chris was saying, we've seen some covers that totally missed
the mark. It would be as if.
No, see, that's the problem. He doesn't have our context of.
Exactly. How many episodes have we done?
And and so, yeah, I could see coming in.
Yeah, you're 100% correct. I guess our our problem is we
we've seen. Oh, so bad.

(01:01:59):
It was bad stuff. And and the biggest reason is we
call judge a cover by the book. It has to be by the book, and I
think every single one of these checks off that we got the
scroll. We've got the buildings, which
definitely recall of ancient buildings.
We got the fire which the Alexandria library, the burning
book in in cover E. So I oh, and then like the

(01:02:21):
mystery hunt of cover. HI think the fact that all of
them do tie back to that historical quest mystery and
heavily related to an ancient building and texts and scrolls
and and documents and parchments.
I think I have to give it cred for that.
I really I really got to got to give it to that.
And just from a design perspective, 100% can't agree

(01:02:41):
more. B is absolute trash.
I would never want to pick that book up if I saw that in a
Hudson news or an airport stand.But the opposite is also true of
a. That would be one of my first go
TOS if I saw it on a stand. So I'm with you in a lot of
ways, Brandon. I really am, but I'm also trying
to find ways to give it credit. And the last thing I'll say

(01:03:05):
cover C is so Steve Berry, it's unbelievable.
I don't know what the coin is inreference to.
I'm assuming Alexander. So if that indeed is Alexander,
there weren't many coins in thisbook, but that becomes a running
theme on a lot of stamp, like animprint on a, what do you call
it on a wax, you know, to seal letters.

(01:03:25):
So there's a little bit of a running theme there.
And I think that plus just the design of a, the aesthetics of a
combined with the fact that it'sactually showing an old ancient
building burning and the red, the red and the orange is like a
theme. And I kind of think that theme
and color scheme works because of all that.
I'm going to bump to 3 1/2. 3 1/2.

(01:03:47):
I am going a bit higher, Chris, the deciding voice in the
debate. Yeah, I'm like I'm right in the
middle of you guys. I'm a three.
I think you're right. Cover B worst of the lot.
You know, you really have to. Maybe it's just because it's so
small. And if you, if I had it, I could
realize that I guess these are supposed to be hieroglyphs or,

(01:04:11):
you know, some sort of, but it just looks like a cave.
Like you said, it just looks like a cave.
I wouldn't be able to tell it. Something's burning in there.
Like that's supposed to be the library.
I I do think cover A is probablythe best out of all of them.
I'm surprised they didn't go with this.
Wasn't there a lighthouse in Alexandria?
Like they didn't go with like, you know, showing like from the
lighthouse scheme, like something that would make that

(01:04:32):
would just like like screaming, you know, everything else having
the scrolls E having the scroll burn, you know, kind of plays
homage. You know, some of the history
that you know Barry brings aboutof like, like, wasn't it one of
the manuscripts they saved or one of the records?

(01:04:52):
They say that these monks are going to burn like this copy of
the Bible for for fuel, but thenthey.
Think they they use the scrolls for the the baths, right?
To fuel the baths, To warm the baths, Yeah.
Can why don't you tell me what the symbol is an F?
Is it just like some sort of cross?
I I think it's that same oh the symbol.

(01:05:13):
I was thinking the coin again. Good question.
I've seen that called. What's?
It called, I think it's. I think it's called an Ankh and
I think it's, it's, it has something to do with like
ancient, like I've seen it like when we, you know, you see stuff
about the Pharaohs and stuff like that in ancient Egypt.

(01:05:35):
I've seen it associated with that.
With Egypt. Yes, the ankh sometimes refers
to as the key of life or the keyof the Nile, representative of
eternal life in ancient Egypt. That's an extra half a point
right there. Mike, Michael do that sometimes,
like halfway through it, we'll we'll realize that one of these
things it just it like clicks. We either missed or

(01:05:57):
misinterpreted, yeah. Yeah.
I think that's a cool touch, although it didn't show up in
the book at all. So, but it's really.
Other than Alexandra being in inEgypt.
But you know, we don't go to Egypt.
Do you think we should have gone?
Well, we go to the Sinai, but doyou think we should have gone to
like, the ruins of Alexandria orlike the modern day city?
Like, he talks in the author's note about this modern day

(01:06:20):
library they're building there, which sounds awesome.
Should the story, if not at all like, kind of touched on that?
That's actually a great point. I'd never even thought of that.
And it would be interesting to at least like, at least have
them go to Cairo. Agreed.
Agreed. Let's look, look at Cairo and
see what we can find and like, well, maybe we'll, you know,

(01:06:42):
we'll investigate there or there'll be some, you know,
breadcrumb there that we can find.
But that's, that's a great point.
Never even thought of that. While I total my scores,
Brandon, why don't you you have now 5 free points to give to
anything you would like. I already I already took mine.
Mine is Gary. So I'm I'm done, but you guys

(01:07:04):
have to give yours. So what's your free space?
And I'll total this up. So I think my my free space is
going to go to the the buy in factor because as I'm reading
this, I keep thinking how in theheck is Steve Berry going to end

(01:07:25):
up proving this or how how are they in the book?
When I say prove it, How's he going to prove it in the in the
world of the story, right. Yeah, because, you know, he he
really had me. He did.
I can't kept thinking like this and and it makes you that just
that what if piece to history. I know we talked about that
before. It's just the what if.

(01:07:47):
Like what if this conversation between Saint Augustine and
Saint Jerome actually did happen?
What if, you know something, a translation is wrong in this
spot that we've been saying, youknow, this Old Testament spot,
you know, we've been saying for centuries is, is it really

(01:08:07):
isn't. It's just that that what if
factor is just really well done with this book because you know,
it's, it's historical faction like like you mentioned and you
know, you, it's, it's just so evident and it's so well done
with this that you know, I, I have to give my free space to
that 'cause I was, I was bought in the whole time.

(01:08:29):
I'm with you. Yeah, can't steal your free
space. But if I could, I would.
It'd be the quest, the buy into the quest and the history of it,
checking out in the history, combining with the Saudis
demolishing this town so no archaeological evidence can be
found. And what would happen if we find
out the Holy Land is not actually the Holy Land?
And yeah, the amazing stuff. But since I got to change it up

(01:08:52):
and Chris, you took Gary, I'm going to wrap in Henrik with
that. I feel like that'd be another
kind of stolen free space, because this book really could
be called The Adventures of Henrik and Gary.
Oh, I'd I'd read that. Exactly, the two of them going
off and, and doing what they're doing together.
He's like the mentor, the fatherfigure, while his father's
solving, you know, saving the day, the wise old man.

(01:09:14):
So I, I feel like I can't do that either because, because you
guys kind of covered that. So I think and and Brandon, you
mentioned it earlier in the jog my memory, this idea of the
Guardians, the fact that this knowledge can be preserved
throughout time by a secret Society of which many of our
heroes from history, the big menof history have been involved in
and had this esoteric knowledge or this access to knowledge

(01:09:38):
that's quite literally hidden out in the middle of the desert,
protected by the Guardians through the years.
I love when history, you know, plays out on that grand scale
when there, when there's something about history that
connects all the threads, all the time periods, all the
people, all the players, and they all had this something in
common that made them influence history and, and be the thread

(01:10:01):
throughout history that brings us to where we are today.
So the idea of the guardians, you get that knock on the door
inviting you into their temple of knowledge and you have to go
on the quest and complete the quest to get in really cool
backdrop for the story. So I I think the Guardians are
going to be my big winner. All right, that gives us our

(01:10:22):
scorecard. So we have a grand total of
Brandon, you are 41.5 out of 50,tied with me 41.5 coming right
behind us, Mike with a 40.5. So we all, we all like this
book, you know, pretty pretty closely.

(01:10:43):
And for just as a context, you know, me and Mike gave a temp
our legacy, a 44.5 and a 45. So, you know, it's, it's a
close, it's close, but I, I think I don't know, I like, I
like each of them differently. So it's kind of hard to compare.
Yeah. We kind of like we kind of
talked our way through that, butyeah.

(01:11:05):
I think had I, I read Templar Legacy, you know, a few years
ago and I think had I read them more closely together, I might
feel a little bit differently. And your, your guys pot, you
know, your episode on, on the Templar legacy is what inspired
me to go grab, you know, Alexandria.

(01:11:27):
Like I was like, I got to get back into reading Steve Berry.
Yeah. Like there's just a way you guys
talked about the, the historicalaspect of things and I, there
were things that I had forgotten.
It happened. I was like I I need to get back
into this. I love that that that's almost
what we intend to do is we just want to be like that after show,
you know, like we finish a book,we're going to have that after
show bro out about it. And people who either read it

(01:11:47):
recently or have read this book long ago can listen in to jog
their memory and kind of reignite that fire.
And it's funny because that's what your post and your review
did for me, which was we read the Templar Legacy.
After years of begging Chris to pick up a Steve Berry book, we
finally got there and we both said we want to do more, but
we've been so busy and our reading schedule is jam packed.

(01:12:08):
I don't know when we would have gotten this to this one, but
realistically, I don't think we would have scheduled it in in
2025, just knowing how much we have coming down the Pike.
And so your review, seeing you glowing review, check them out.
We'll let you at the very end here.
Brandon, plug your socials one more time.
I know you said it earlier wherepeople can find you because when
I read your glowing review of Alexandria link, I was so fired

(01:12:31):
up. I was like, Chris, we're putting
it, you know, on the schedule this summer, like do it right
now because I was so pumped to get into it.
So thank you for that as well. Tell the people where can they
find you. So I'm on X at Saturday, I'm
Saturday Dad on X at Dad under score Saturday, and then I also
have a weekly newsletter that I publish.

(01:12:53):
It's free to sign up. It's called Saturday Dad Reads
and basically what you get with that is my weekly, do a book a
week, do a quick summary of the book, do a review.
Also add in there a little. I call them Dad's knowledge
bombs. I'll take something that's

(01:13:13):
inside the book and I'll expand upon it.
So for example, my knowledge BOMfor when I did the Alexandria
link was about the library of Alexandria itself.
And I, I liken those to things that if you're the dad at the
table and you know, Christmas dinner, Thanksgiving dinner,
Sunday dinner, what have you, and you, you need to drop a
little knowledge on the people at the table.

(01:13:34):
You know, that's the kind of stuff you want to have in your
back pocket. Then you're that I always end
the end the end the newsletter with either some some book
wrecks, you know what I'm reading now, or a dad rant, some
takes on being a being a dad of four and you know, old man
yelling in a cloud sometimes. Nice, nice.

(01:13:58):
I'm a I'm a dad of four as well,so.
All right, on. OK.
Three dads talking about books. Exactly.
There's a new. That was what I, you know, that
was one of the things that I, I had intended to do from, from
the start, when I got got the idea from, from my brother was
like, hey, man, why don't you, you know, you read constantly.

(01:14:21):
There's a niche out there for dads to talk about books.
Why don't you start posting instead of like trolling the
Pittsburgh sports media? Why don't you use your, your
social media handle to, you know, talk about books.
And I started doing it about twoyears ago with a, a review every

(01:14:42):
week. And here we are now talking
books with you guys. Awesome.
That's good stuff. I just subscribed to your
newsletter. I'm I'm excited to you have a
new reader, a new reader in May.This was great.
Thank you for coming on. And yeah, we got it.
Maybe, maybe when we read the what is it, the Venetian length?

(01:15:04):
Venetian. Betrayal.
Venetian betrayal. Yeah, we will have you back.
Or if you come up with any otherbooks that you review that you
think you're just screaming, youknow, Thriller Pod right in our
wheelhouse. Spy, espionage, military stuff.
Recommend the way. I'm I'm going to give you guys
all the credit in the world for turning me on to Daniel Silva.
Your episode on the Kill Artist was top notch.

(01:15:26):
I know. I'm going to get back to him
too. Favorite books?
I'm reading the English Assassinright now which is book 2 and I
don't know if you guys have doneanything with Don Bentley.
I'm currently reading the Matt Drake first in the Matt Drake
series so. We did all of them.
So I think if you find those, I think you'll enjoy it as you as
you go through and his new Mitchrap books in the in the Vince

(01:15:50):
Flynn series we've covered. So Yep.
I love that review. This week is a Mitch rap.
I'll give you that Kill Shot, the second book in the series.
All right, all right. OK.
OK, And we're going to get the follow up to that book next
month. Chris and I actually just got
early copies to Denied Access, which is the third book after
American Assassin, Kill Shot andnow the third Mitch rap book in

(01:16:11):
that trilogy. Beautiful.
All right. Well, we're going to look out
for that one. I I'm very curious what your
knowledge bomb will be for kill shot.
A couple ways you can go with that.
But Yep, absolutely. You have the knowledge bombs.
We got the limericks. So I don't know if you know this
about the pod, but every time wereview a book, I end with a
Limerick. So before you close this out,
Chris, I got to say there once was a secret to find that could

(01:16:36):
change all of humankind. With Cotton on track, the past
fighting back and the truth blows conspiracies minds.
Oh, that's a good 1M. It's a good one.
Good job there. It's such a good one, one might
say it takes AI to write that Limerick.
No way. I'm sorry, boys, I let you down.

(01:16:58):
I let you down. I didn't have 1/3.
I. That's a Chad DPT one.
And I don't do, that's the firsttime I've done it on the pod, so
I had to cop out just cause having such a good time, I
didn't want to be distracted writing a Limerick.
So I won't do it again. Chris, I apologize.
Normally he he makes me sit herefor at least like 20 minutes
while he's like wait, wait, wait, let me do a Limerick and

(01:17:18):
I'm just watching him while I'm you.
Know he would say 845 pod we click record at 9:15 'cause I'm.
Trying to write a Limerick. I didn't want to do that to you
though, Brandon. So I was like, let me just let
me just use some AI here all. Good.
All right. Well, thanks.
Thanks for coming on man. Yeah, absolutely.
Guys. Thank you for having me.

(01:17:39):
This was an awesome opportunity and loved having the chance to
talk folks with you guys. All right, let's do it again
sometime. Sounds good to me.
All right. Take it easy, guys.
All right. Well, thank you to Brandon for
coming on. Again, I need to thank our
patrons, our Deputy Director, Sherry F Marsh and Brad E, our
special agents, Adam, Mike, Ben,Daryl, George, Matt, hold on,

(01:18:02):
I'm getting cut off here. Matt, Don and Chris, please
subscribe, rate, interview to all three seasons of No Limits.
You can find [e-mail] or on Twitter and Instagram at
Thriller Podcast. And as always, just like cotton,
be cotton.