September 22, 2025 • 46 mins
The adventures of Ben and Eliza! Chris and Mike are joined by the creator and host of The Terminal Vengeance YouTube channel to break down episodes 4 and 5 of The Terminal List: Dark Wolf on Amazon Prime Video. SPOILER WARNING: We are the thriller deep-dive after show!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
And welcome back to this week's and no limits, the Dark Wolf
after show how you doing today, Mike?
I'm good and I am very happy to introduce a special guest.
We are joined by TV, the creatorbehind the Terminal Vengeance
(00:39):
YouTube channel, Friend of the pod for a number of years now.
Welcome TV, you got to tell us all about your channel.
Thank you all for having me. Yeah.
So I started my channel a few years ago.
I basically make what I wanted to watch on YouTube.
I wanted to see people talking about the show and nobody really
was. So I started and I do like
(01:01):
Easter egg breakdowns, find the hidden details and like the
callbacks to the book and then make a video on it and I guess
people like it. Yeah, that's that's kind of why
we want to be the after show. We want to do those spoilers as
well. We want to dig in deep, find the
Nuggets, make it accessible for anybody who just watches the
(01:22):
shows, the first Terminal of season or now Dark Wolf so that
they have an after show to go to.
But we also want to bring peopleto the books.
That's our ultimate mission. We're book readers through and
through. I I mean, you and I connected
first a few years back over the books, the terminal list and I
think Red sky morning was comingout at the time and and so that
that has to be the mission of both the show itself and all the
(01:43):
commentary about the show. Let's get people to the books
because that's where James Reeseis really James Reese.
I think on page is the James Reese I know and love.
The TV shows are fun, but we gotto get people reading the books.
They're just incredible. Oh yeah, for sure.
I think it's easier to get people to watch a show, but it's
harder to get people into books.But when they get into them,
(02:04):
they're just hooked. So it just makes my day whenever
someone says I decided to buy the book and I'm loving it.
Yeah, no, it's it's great now I love your I love your
breakdowns. Like it, you know it.
It's interesting because I want this community to be like, you
know, I don't know, I, I look atsome of the other things that I
(02:25):
want or I watch from, you know, like nerd verse, right?
You know, whether it's Marvel orX-Men, you know, like any of
these like IP machines. You know, you have a bunch of
podcasts out there, you have newrock stars, you have like the
ringer verse. You have a bunch of them yet
(02:46):
like they're they're and I don't, I feel like we're these
books aren't like that super niche.
Like they're literally New York time bestsellers.
Like every year. Like, you know, you walk through
any airport, you walk through any bookstore, you're going to
see it there and it's, it's pushed, but yet like the this
kind of community doesn't quite exist.
And so, you know, definitely, obviously love having you on and
want to elevate your stuff. I want more and more people to,
(03:10):
to like and subscribe and, and, and engage in this community
because the more people we get watching us or, you know,
watching you, listening to you, listening to us, I feel like it
just would breed other creators.You know, it just builds upon
this community that we would like to see happen.
Yeah. And I think age demographic as
(03:31):
well might be a difference. Some of those IPS you mentioned
and those channels like New Rockstar, Screen Rant, all the
others. I do wonder if older
demographics, I'm talking, you know, 50 plus would necessarily
be going to that media and content.
And I feel like they're not. But, you know, TV, your channel
speaks to a younger demographic.You yourself are, you know, on
(03:53):
the younger side, still in school.
So I feel like that, well, you need new media to do that,
right? You need the social media, you
need the podcast. And I think there's a big
opportunity. I don't know if it's years away
from channels like ours and yours popping off.
Yours has already grown massively looking at your stats.
So keep it coming. We want more of that.
What is it? A rising tide lifts all boats.
(04:14):
It's this space is definitely not crowded out like some
YouTube genres, you know, cooking, food, golf.
I feel like those things are so over saturated.
I think book YouTube is not there yet.
I think we're just on the precipice.
Yeah, for sure. You very rarely get to be the
first or the only, but sometimes, since nobody else is
(04:36):
talking about it, I am the firstor I am the only person.
And I y'all too, like I've been listening to y'all talking about
Dark Wolf and it's been great tohave someone else.
It's like when you see something, if you don't have any
friends that watch it, you want to talk to someone about it.
And that's kind of what the podcast is like.
Yeah, I mean, Mike, I don't knowif you cut ended up cutting it
(04:58):
out of the episode or not, but like we went on this rant about
the lack of cultural zeitgeist that exists in in the world and
how I'm enjoying that. You know, Amazon Prime put out
like the first 3 episodes and isputting out these episodes one
per week because one gives me something to look forward to.
I'm a busy dad. I don't have time to binge, you
(05:20):
know, shows like I used to back in in high score college, but
also like, you know, it builds some suspense for it.
And like, I'll I'll be texting Mike or I'll I'll text in our,
you know, GroupMe chat. Like, Hey, like, what did you
think about this? What do you think about that?
You know, I feel like we've gotten farther and farther away
from that as a society back to, I don't know, like when one was
a lot. I guess Game of Thrones was
(05:41):
really the last one that that was kind of like that, you know,
breaking. I remember, I remember when the
Breaking Bad season finale came out.
This is dating me and like, you know, going to work right after
that and everyone was talking about it or, you know, like when
everyone hated the season 8 of of Game of Thrones, like
everyone was talking about that.So I don't know.
But I like, I know there are people that are engaging in this
(06:03):
in this season, Dark Wolf, people at work, you know, have
randomly brought it up and they're liking it so.
I think the marketing end on theproduction team side is way
better than the terminalist season 1.
For some reason, it's more findable on Amazon is more
billboards and things you know you're seeing posted in airports
and bus stops in major metropolitan areas.
(06:25):
So I feel like things are clicking now that weren't
necessarily there on the first run of the TV show.
And I think that's resonating with all these new media groups
because even, I think it was Screen Rant did some interviews
with all the actors. And however that publicity
machine gets rolling, I'm seeingTaylor Kitsch, Tom Hooper,
they're out on tour, right? They're they're doing tons of
(06:47):
content, tons of interview with big name media outlets.
And I don't recall that happening to this level.
Maybe it's also Chris Pratt's production team.
I know he has a big role in the show.
I, I just think they have a bigger platform with Dark Wolf
than they did the terminal list.And I'm kind of glad about that
one. I, I think it's just an overall
better show. I think it's more likely to
(07:08):
drive people to the books as well.
Even though James Reese was barely a figment of our
imagination episode 1 and poof gone like one and two and wasn't
even in real two really just a little in the beginning.
So I, I feel like I'm OK if people start with Dark Wolf, get
a little taste, either watch theshow or read a book and they are
absolutely coming back to true believer.
(07:30):
And we didn't even say it. We are spoiling episodes 4:00
and 5:00 today. We already covered Chris and
I-12 and three. So TV, you're with us to talk
about four and five. These episodes are a massive
setup for True Believer. Like they're doubling down,
particularly in five with some things we get about Wraith
during the torture scene. Do you guys feel it?
(07:50):
Almost Dark Wolf is subtly and you wouldn't see it unless you
were a book reader, is subtly also teeing up True Believer to
come next year or 27 or wheneverwe get it.
Yeah, definitely. There's so many things that that
are like callbacks to the book. But like you're saying, if you
never read the book, it's not like in your face and you're not
(08:13):
getting lost when these these details are thrown in.
Yeah, I think it's, you know, weI don't know if we were talking
about this last time or, or offline.
While we love True believer as abook, I I felt like it would
have been hard, a hard jump to go from the terminalist to that
(08:34):
one, just like the way the book set up with, you know, the whole
beginning, being on a boat and traveling to Africa and all that
stuff. But then a lot of it is call
back. And so, you know, him thinking
about like the past or reminiscing about something.
And so instead of having that, you know, 1 putting it in this
origin story, in this medium here, obviously, you know, we
(08:58):
only got the the Cavs a big starin Taylor Kitsch for Ben
Edwards, and you want to get your money's worth out of that.
And I I would say he's doing very good in this episode.
And you're, you are seeing his progression, you know, teeing it
up to like, all right now. Now maybe I can understand more
of like how he, you know, and ends up switching in in in the
(09:19):
future in terminal list. So, yeah, I, I think, you know,
whoever sat down and was like, Hey, what do we do next?
I, I, I, I'm fully agreeing withlike, all right, let's take a
step back. Let's do this prequel show, you
know, because we have what we have.
And I think it it's going to make Terminal List Season 2 true
believer that much better. Yeah, perfectly said.
(09:43):
Yeah, I, I can't agree more withthat decision being the right
one as the direction to take theshow.
And sometimes you do when books go back in time, think about
Mitch Rapp, right when Vince Flynn did American Assassin and
then that trilogy never wrapped up.
Then he jumped ahead and, you know, ultimately ended up with
The Last Man. I feel like some people were
lost. Some of the readers got a little
(10:05):
confused about the timeline and it opened up this whole where do
we begin? Do you begin with American
Assassin? Do you begin with term limits or
transfer power? I could see that happening with
The Terminalist. But I think over time, let's say
they make 6-7 whatever TV shows,dark Wolf's number one, like I,
I do think of dark Wolf as like the first season you watch.
(10:25):
So I feel like that's pretty clear and it's going to make
you're right, particularly the ending of terminalist book or TV
show much because one of the biggest criticisms at the end of
the TV show kind of in the book too, is what the hell happened
with Ben? Like what his seal mate, his
seal brother. That's a very big critique of
that book. I and I understand that.
(10:47):
And then Jack was smart enough to realize that.
So he carries it over, not too many spoilers into True believer
Savage Son and maybe even beyondwhere Katie is asking how did
you know Ben wouldn't kill me? How did you know I'd survive the
attack? And so that storyline of like,
why did this happen? And this was a strange sequence
of occurrence that came out of the blue.
(11:08):
Like I don't know if the twist completely lands.
Well, that had to be unpacked under a couple of books after.
Like that was a lingering storyline, Reese and Katie's
relationship after the whole events of Ben and the debt cord
and etcetera. And I feel like Dark Wolf is
giving the space to answer that or preview that kind of get
ahead of it. So it doesn't seem as such an
(11:28):
out of the blue strange occurrence when you get to the
end of terminalist, although on TV show.
Speaking of Katie, and I don't want to bring it up too much
because there's a dark wolf podcast.
I don't know how they're going to sell the audience that Katie
and Reese are a thing or a couple.
So I I I've yet to see what they're going to do with that
and true believer. But I'm I'm putting the cart
before the horse there. We got a lot of story to tell
(11:50):
before that. Yeah, they are filming True
Believer because we will have Jack Carr coming on the podcast
and I've got to wake up at 4:30 AM for that because he is abroad
internationally filming True Believer and getting that show
on the road. So things to look forward to for
the No Limits faithful out there.
(12:11):
And TV, the Terminal Vengeance channel will also have a little
Jack car preview. Are we allowed to say that?
Yeah, I was able to talk to him a few days ago and we had a
great conversation. It'll probably be a two-part
release because I asked him somequestions about the finale, but
I'm excited to get it out there.And you guys also talk cry
(12:34):
havoc. We did, yeah.
I really enjoyed Cry Havoc and Iasked him some like general
questions. So nothing spoiled for people
who haven't read it. And yeah, you can tell how
passionate he is about Tom Reeceand his story.
And like, I asked him, like, whythis was the time to jump from
(12:58):
James Reece to Tom Reece. And we had a great conversation.
So the little there's a little of a side, but how did you get
into these books? Well, I was.
I guess I was just listening to a lot of audio books and I'd go
from subject to subject and I landed on the military and I I
(13:23):
hit like aviation and then I went into special operations and
found Jack Cars books because itwas in that section.
And I just started listening to them and immediately binge the
first three and then I was hooked.
Nice. So have you ventured out into
like other thriller reverse authors?
(13:47):
Yeah, I've started Brad Thore and Vince Flynn and then a few
others out there, but mainly those.
And so you're, you're mainly an audiobook guy.
I started out in audiobooks, butI think I like physical copies.
Now, OK, you know, Chris and I were wondering, and I thought I
(14:10):
heard it again. There was a little phone call
with Tom, not Tom Reese, with Jonathan Hastings on the phone.
And we were both wondering if either Ray Porter was that
voice. I didn't go back and listen to
it. There's another phone call here
where I'm like, Oh my God, it sounds like Ray Porter too.
So I don't know if they actuallyused him in The Dark Wolf, but
(14:31):
there's some references that totally make me think of Ray
Porter's performance in the books.
Anytime we hear a Hastings, Tom Hooper or one of these phone
calls, I'm just like, man, that's taking me back to hearing
the audio book with these Rhodesian accents and
everything. They're getting all those parts
right. Yeah, he just, the way he reads
it is so good that when I go back and read like the
(14:52):
Terminalist, I can hear his voice like I'm reading in his
voice. And I did check IMDb, it is Ray
Porter, which is really neat. All right.
Oh wow. Nice.
Chris, I think, I think you called that one on the last
episode. You also made another major
call. Maybe it's time to get into the
spoilers of Episode 4. Eliza.
(15:16):
Chris, you said on our episode 3coverage you don't trust her.
You think she might be a rat andand then episode 4 ends with the
shots in the back. What did you think when that
happened? I, I, I 100% saw it coming.
You know, you know, I feel like putting Mossad in bed with the
CIA. You know, we've, we've read too
(15:36):
many of these stories to know that it's, it's, you know, going
to go bad in, in some fashion where Israel always Trump's most
of the time, you know, what's going to go on.
But you know, I've, I feel like they were setting this up.
I'm super intrigued to see, you know, I, I know we're covering
4:00 and 5:00. So obviously setting up that,
(15:59):
you know, sort of turn there andthen immediately, you know,
confronting it. This this show waste no time.
Like, you know, I I almost feel like this show could have been
longer. Like do you guys feel that like
they could have? Completely.
Made it and not that I think it's bad, it's not like, you
know, some other shows where they're jumping around too much
and you know it it, but I I do feel like it it could have
(16:19):
deserved, you know, a longer season just to draw some of
these other things. But that being said, you know,
we jump right back into it and then having the end of the last
episode end with her death like that was just crazy to me.
It's moving quick, and I at one point asked myself, is the show
(16:43):
a little too easy? They tease something up and then
the payoff is the next scene, the cutscene.
There's no drawing it out. And so to go from one episode
she turns on him to the second episode.
It's basically Episode 5, the Eliza and Ben show.
It hits them mending that relationship, being forced into
(17:04):
mending that relationship with ahostile hit.
We get two of these massive set action pieces and they both are
basically framed with Eliza and Ben's relationship in the
background. You know, they have to go scout
out the tunnel. The guard finds them, they start
making out. So it's like even on this
tunnel, OP, are things compromised because they're
(17:24):
getting too close? And Rafe even warns him and
confronts him about that in the let's be manly and chop wood
scene. With even that, I could have
taken a longer montage of they, they like chopped 2 pieces of
wood and it's cut like, no, I want to see these hunky dudes
cutting wood. You know, like, give me, give me
at least 2 minutes of that. But they jump from that too
(17:45):
quickly. And then Eliza's blown up next
episode right after they mend things.
And I think you're right, Chris,that's a consequence of seven
episodes. I wish this was 910.
I, I, I don't know how Amazon and the studios mandated that.
So I do think the writers room is doing the best they can with
those constraints. I understand a little timeline
(18:05):
compression, understand a littlecompression of dialogue to
advance storylines and relationships quicker than I
would like. And the one that is kind of
taking a backseat in episode 4 and five and and maybe why I'm a
little lower on them, Moe's justgone.
Like that impacted me not havingMO after the shootout.
(18:26):
It, it seems like, well, not to say too much, but it seems like
it wasn't a mortal wound, like it was shot under the vest
somewhere in in the side in the oblique or something.
So it just seems like they're moving a little too quickly, but
then they're ignoring some storylines like that that I
loved. Maybe that's them trying to say
the team is split up. Like we haven't even seen
(18:47):
Haverford really after he took out the physicist.
So I guess this is trying to saythe team's in shambles.
The team is spread out. This is the Ben and Eliza show.
Now. I really do help hope.
I know there's only two episodesleft.
I do hope we get the MO Show andthe Jed Haverford show because I
I want that equally as much as we've had screen time with Ben
and Eliza these two episodes. Yeah, I think part of that might
(19:13):
be the consequence of having a lot of major characters.
And I'm, I'm curious to see if people who haven't read True
Believer have the same critique on MO because we know he's a big
character, but other people aren't really going to know
that. Sure, we were so high on MO and
(19:36):
even Landry being tossed in hereearly because we know what's to
come with them. If I were an outsider, I think
looking at MO, I'd be fine with it by the look at Landry and be
like the Hell's going on with this guy, which again is is
teeing something up. But I don't know if I want to
say they're mishandled in their their storylines.
MO I don't think was in episodes123, but I might say, yeah, it's
(19:58):
being mishandled now. And so I'm curious what 6 and
seven will do to bring the team back.
Does the team need to come back?But we need to see more of MO
and Jed and and those characters.
I really love that they put a lot of time and effort in too
early. Like we even get a tall show
here. Tall has her scene.
And I was really glad about thatbecause I needed to see that
great, great combat scene, hand to hand action scene.
(20:21):
Someone commented under my review for Dark Wolf and they
said if there was a girl boss fight, then they were going to
be out of the show. And I knew that one was going,
but they did not. Yeah, they did not do the like
standard girl boss fight. It was like she was really
getting rocked and she was even like screaming for help and she
(20:44):
had to use like improvised weapons and stuff.
But that was a killer fight. Yeah, and I think it played up
it it was believable, you know, because we know that built from
like the well, I don't know, thefirst or second episode, you
know, when she struggled like pulling out that gun, like she
didn't just immediately get the shots off and and get it.
She had to struggle with it, youknow, like you said, weapon
(21:08):
improvisation. And even to the fact that right
after she killed the dude, she had to throw up.
Like, you know, she it's emotional, it's raw, it's it's
true to her character. And I feel like they're doing a
really good job of, you know, 1 developing each of the
characters. But then, like you said, Mike
(21:29):
giving them their like moment. And I do need to see more of a
Haverford moment. I feel like we were kind of
peeling back the onion of him in.
I don't know if it was episode 4with with Ray from the phone
call, but I want to see more of him.
And then I definitely want to talk to you guys about like the
(21:50):
rape scene, like in in in this whole interrogation and and then
ultimately finding out that, hey, this guy is actually
undercover. I was a little confused.
So we supposed to take it to mean that he was undercover or
that entire team was a German operative team?
I guess we don't. Do we not know?
That's the question. This colleague network was
(22:13):
somehow involved with the transfer of these bearings.
And I guess the question is, wasGerman intelligence compromised
and actually someone in German intelligence, this guy's boss or
even this guy who's being tortured working alongside them?
This guy's trying to sell. No, we weren't.
Then are they like Mossad? Are they trying to undermine the
Iranian nuclear program? Did they put fake bearings in?
(22:35):
Because at one time Ben is manipulating the bearings in
that cinema museum rundown warehouse thing and and Eliza
sees him playing with the bearings and he says something's
not right about these. So is this a German intelligence
op? Is, is Germany undermining the
Iranian nuke deal? They actually want them to have
centrifuges. So they're trying to get them
(22:56):
the right bearings. I that's one of those mystery
boxes that I'm kind of happy with.
So, yeah, the torture scene withRafe Jack car through and
through, right. If if James Reese isn't going to
be the one doing a torture scene, give it to Rafe Hastings.
Make him the bad ass mother fucker doing it.
So I was completely happy with that.
(23:17):
I don't know, I think the Germanthing is up for grabs and this
kind of parallels the shepherd. The Shepherd is compromising
submission and Mossad wants to figure it out.
That's why Eliza and Tal were actually tailing Jed, trying to
see, is he in on the game? Is the Shepherd playing him?
Is the Shepherd like this deep, deep covered double mole, secret
(23:39):
mole that ultimately is running Jed?
Is that what's going on here? And I think by looping in the
Germans and the Iranian nukes, we're seeing the consequences of
that. Whatever the Shepherd's able to
do is now having all these downstream effects of other
intelligence agencies having shootouts in European cities and
some terrorist network involved and bombs going off and car
bombs is a Mossad. Is it this colleague network?
(24:03):
Is it whoever is working with this German guy?
Is it Jed and the Shepherd? Like I think there's so many
mystery boxes that six and seven's got to land this plane.
We have to start getting answersto some of these things.
But I am bought into each of those storylines as its own
thread. Do you, would you agree?
TV on your channel? Have you talked about the
mystery box of it all and who's really the bad guy here?
(24:27):
I haven't gotten into the recentepisodes, but one thing that I
liked about the torture scene and how that played out was I
think it really illustrates the fog of war well.
And even the bearings and the Khalid network, nobody really
(24:48):
knows what's going on. The audience doesn't know you're
right there with them. And I think even like episode 1
with Duron, there's some things that aren't black and white, and
I think Dark Wolf shows that andthey go somewhere that most
shows probably wouldn't dare. Yeah, no, there there's, I think
(25:13):
look back to the scene of, you know, Ben Edwards just capping a
dude in the middle of a subway right after smiling at a little
girl. Like, you know, it's the show is
like I said, it's it's a little raw.
It's, you know, kind of showing you the trying to show you the
inner workings of, you know, CIAoperatives, that kind of stuff.
(25:35):
I think look back to some other shows that have done this really
well. I think Homeland, the first
couple seasons, you know, slow horses.
I don't know if you guys have watched that show, but yeah,
like it's it's interesting to see.
I have no idea where I, you know, where this is going to go.
(25:55):
And I think that's ultimately a good thing.
I think it's like you said, Mike, I'm, I'm intrigued enough
and I'm not disappointed that like I'm, I'm pissed off like,
you know, other shows, like whenyou don't have enough intrigue
or there's too many loose ends with two episodes to go, you
know, you can kind of like checkout or be like, I'm not buying
(26:17):
the show. But here I do think they have a
chance to quote UN quote and land the plane and wrap
everything up in the next two episodes.
And then hopefully, you know, sail us into a true believer.
So. Yeah, I'm, I'm a harsh critic on
both TV and books. So on the podcast I've had a lot
of hot takes. I will say I could very easily
(26:40):
be turned off by some of that and go, I don't really care who
the shepherd is. This is this is ridiculous.
No, I really care. Like I really want to know who's
running who. And they sold me so hard on Jed
being the good soldier, right? Being the the faithful one, his
whole life is in this decades ofexperience.
He was involved in Stuxnet, he was involved in other
(27:03):
operations, even mentioned Lebanon and Beirut and really
cool flashback. They even show footage from the
Beirut bombings. And knowing that was another one
of Jack Carr's books and one of his, you know, personal pet
projects with amazing book by the way, to actually bring that
into the show and have that withthe character of Jed.
I was loving. I was eating it up.
(27:24):
I was lapping it out of their hands and now Mossad is trying
to convince us Jed is compromised.
Jed's been being played. I'm very much bought into that.
So I'd be the first one to critique these things if I
didn't think they were working, if I thought they were cheap
cuts or easy way out or they're taking shortcuts, cheap shots.
I not at all. I think they built this up
(27:44):
really well. I think the storytelling is
great, and maybe that's because they're unburdened by a book.
The Terminal is first season. Some of the best parts and
characters were people off book that the screenwriters just felt
free to do so and tell the storythey need to tell, write
dialogue they need to write. And some of the scenes that
didn't land were ones where theytried too hard to be faithful to
(28:07):
the book but couldn't or didn't and it got sloppy.
I feel like the show really has the freedom to let the writers
do what they need to do and tellthe story they need to tell and
it's and it's mostly working. Yeah, I think they have.
I think this is what happens when you have like 10 master
storytellers together instead of1 and they get it.
(28:29):
Create something and everybody gets to put their input in and
the best idea wins instead of I mean the books are really good,
but when you have a bunch of people to bounce ideas off of, I
think you really get the best product you can.
And I'm just looking at like thewriters of each individual show,
(28:52):
you know, or each individual episode.
So we have episode 1 was story by Jack Carr and Dave Djilio,
who producer on the show. Then we have two episodes by
Matt Mac Adams, episodes two andthree.
And that you can kind of see like, you know, thinking back to
those two, they they kind of hada a cohesion to them.
(29:17):
And then I'm looking to see what's coming up.
So episode 6, it's called titledPawns and Kings is written by
Mad Max Adams and then Jared Shaw, who we know is Boozer and
also producer on the show. And then we finish up with the
the season finales written by Jack Carr and David Digilio
again. So.
(29:39):
Interesting. I'm I'm kind of very happy to
hear that the last two episodes have Jared Shaw, Jack David
Degilio working on it because yes, the screenwriters, all the
other people who are in the roomputting in their two cents, but
just those names as well-being in the room.
You're you're right TV and saying that is just a masterful
(30:01):
lineup and we're seeing that come through now.
Did you all catch and I could have been mistaken.
Did Gordo come back from the dead?
Gordo, the man himself, Jack Carr, was he one of those bad
guys in the tunnel shootout? I think he was the guy who tried
to get out of the SUV in the passenger side and just got shot
(30:23):
immediately after they they boxed him in.
I could be wrong, but actually Icould hold it up to the screen.
I really think that was Jack Carr cameo.
Do you know anything about that TV?
If if I'm right on that. He's posted some pictures on
Instagram. There he is, the man, the
legend. The only character in the
terminal is to come back from the dead.
(30:43):
Yeah, I talked to him the other day and he was saying that they
were planning on him being able to get a few shots off, but the
timing wasn't right, so he had to go down immediately.
Yeah. He I, I saw that he posted.
He's like I, I, I, I think he said he lasted less than not as
(31:07):
long as he did in in terminalistso.
He actually got like a walk up scene in that one where you see
him in the mirror and he's walking into the restaurant.
Yeah, it was quicker here. That's funny.
Oh, so Speaking of these action scenes, these shoot outs, we we
essentially have between these two episodes, the tunnel hit and
that's compromised the hostel and that whole shoot out and
(31:31):
then we have the towel fight. Do you feel like each of those
did enough to live up to what they established?
I mean, when we opened with thatbridge scene when we were on the
front lines of Iraq, I think they swung big in that they are
going to get the action, the military, the shootouts, right.
These two episodes I felt in thetwo big set action pieces
pivoted to more of like a video game, almost not easy to buy
(31:55):
into. It almost seemed like these
these bad guys were just being spawned.
All of a sudden they're like MPGS just spawning out of the
blue. It reminded me of Tom Clancy,
like playing Rainbow 6 and having to do, I don't know about
you guys, but I spent hours on the library trying to take down
all the guys in the library and the terrorists.
Just you turn a corner and then you know exactly where they're
going to spawn each time. I don't know.
(32:16):
I was a little taken out of it by the video game esqueness of
it all in those two shootouts. So as action set pieces, they
just fell a little lower for me than what they had in the first
few episodes. I don't know if you feel the
same way. I don't know I I'll agree with
you that the when they're at thehostel scene like that, but
(32:37):
while it was cool and like you know showing off Ben and and I
blanket on her name, but Eliza what's her name?
Eliza's you know readiness as operators.
Yeah, like they're kind of they know exactly where like the
shoot is going to pop and I guess it's kind of showing their
ability to work together. Like even though like they're
(32:59):
just like kind of met each other.
I did really like the tunnel scene.
I felt like that captured this, you know, close net the the way
they shot it. Like they were very close on
like, you know, wasn't like this.
We didn't really see this wide perspective.
We were close in with the, you know, people as they're going
and multiple times in these two episodes and we've we've seen
(33:22):
this throughout the series wherethey do like, you know, when a
bomb goes off or a frag goes off, they'll they'll slow
motion, but like the, the sound is still saying staying the same
speed. And then they speed it, you
know, and then they quickly speed up the camera again to
bring it back into Pat. Like how many times is Ben
Edwards going going to get a good shot or, or have to jump
out of a, an exploding vehicle or, or jump from some sort of
(33:47):
explosion? And and and and be, you know,
still OK, but I, yeah, I, I, I'll agree with you a little bit
on the for sure the hostile scene, but I did, I did quite
like the ton of scene. We, we said in the first 3
episodes it wasn't Grey Manesque, it wasn't over the top
bombastic violence and the shootouts were, were not
believable. And then this episode I felt
(34:09):
like it was a little more Grey Manesque.
You know, he's just surviving everything and then the car bomb
at the end. So TV, I'll let you go.
But yeah, I, I agree with you there.
Just felt a little bit less realistic then they established
early on. Yeah, And I guess one thing
would be earlier on in the season, Ben and his team are in
(34:30):
control of the fight, Sure. And at this point, he's not with
his team and he doesn't get to choose which cards he's going to
get. He's really getting rocked in
those fights and he he doesn't really have control like he did
it earlier on. I guess that speaks, that's a
(34:51):
great point. I guess it speaks to the
resources available when ACIA lone Wolf or dark wolf
operation, you know, couple of you guys just out on on the
fronts in the middle of a residential European city versus
a battlefield, an entire QRF on standby air support, gunboat
support, which I had on the river.
You know, the 50 cals, it's, it's really just you in the
(35:15):
street hiding behind walls and barriers, trying to blend in,
trying to escape. So I think you're right.
Maybe that speaks to the different mission parameters and
resources available on ACIA Black Ops team when things go
South verse a military front lines battle where things go
South, totally different procedures, totally different
set of operating rules. And so yeah, I that makes it
(35:37):
more viable, more believable to me.
I think that's a great point. And it's a far cry from when we
saw Rafe and Ben acting as thesewolves, you know, when they're
trying to take down the the one arms dealer in what was that
episode 2 in the audition to now, you know, and it's even
(35:59):
echoed with Hastings is, you know, reservations about this
operation in terms of 1 collateral damage.
Two, we don't have the full picture, but you know, again, I
think it's also like that progression of Ben Edwards's
character in to how he's just has to continue on down this
(36:20):
path. And like, there's no going back
to him being like he was in the teams, you know, Like, yeah, he
has that knowledge, but he is becoming, you know, this entity
and that that is what these people do.
And that's the theme of Put on the Brakes, Rafe and Ben having
different philosophies. Rafe is totally now like, shit,
(36:40):
I should have put the brakes on.Like I, I took the guardrails
off hit and killing this German intelligence guy, torturing and
killing a friendly on in German intelligence.
Ben would be Ben and Eliza wouldbe like, I don't care.
Like mission above self, missionabove allies, mission above all
else, kind of the Mossad tagline, if you will, the
(37:01):
Israeli self determination self preservation line.
And Rafe is, I think, skirting with that and realizing that's
not where I want to go, and that's not where I want my
country to go. That's where I don't want my
country's intelligence apparatusto be forced to go.
And we're seeing Ben basically say, I'm fine playing by those
rules, especially now that they took Eliza from him when he
(37:21):
takes the bracelet. I'm wondering if that bracelet
was also a tracking or listeningdevice.
I'm curious about the bracelet. Hopefully, I'm not too much of A
skeptic. Hopefully it's just a nice, you
know, heartfelt story about it and her child and her daughter.
I just think that's the difference between Ben and Rafe,
which has also been very compelling of where.
Where do they come out on the other side?
(37:42):
Let's say both of them finish this up, survive it or out of
the game, if you will. As much as you can be out of the
game, Where they come out on theopposite side is miles apart.
And they were both brought into the game in the same, on the
same page, being kicked out of the teams, having to cover for
each other, lying to military command, putting their asses on
(38:03):
the line, making up this fake story.
The Brotherhood is going to stick together no matter what.
Covering for Ben Now Ben goes loose cannon and Rafe is trying
to reel it in and realize I didn't want to go that far.
They started a little closer together.
They're going to end up on the other side, miles apart, which
again illuminates things that happened later on down the road.
(38:24):
So it's a great prequel story. It's a great story on its own.
It's an amazing prequel story toBen Edwards and Ray Hastings.
Alright, TV, why don't you give us some predictions for what you
think how this story is going toend in the next two episodes?
Oh. Dangerous.
I've I've actually seen the other episodes already.
(38:47):
Oh do you have Wow got some screeners?
Did they have the watermark on them?
They did, yeah. Yeah.
OK. Oh.
So I guess, I guess we, we don'twant, we don't want put you any
sort of compromising and I I don't want any spoilers.
But you've, you've been good then holding back with us and
(39:07):
with the audience. You've been really good at
holding back and sticking to episode by episode without
jumping the gun. Kudos.
Yeah, it's made so well, I wouldnot want to spoil it for
anybody. OK, that's great.
That's great. It's good to hear.
How about this then? How about episodes four and five
as a package? What would you give us a letter
(39:29):
grade? You know, imagine you're, you're
sitting through your exams. What's the, what's the letter
grade you get? And then overall so far on what
you've seen in the season, what would you give overalls letter
grade? Oh.
I'm John the Spot a different way.
Yeah, I'm not a very harsh critic, but seeing Wraith be the
(39:54):
character that we know from the books and seen the fights that I
expected when I saw the teasers,I'm going with an A.
And man, another moment from Episode 5 that just gave me
chills was when Simple Man came on.
(40:15):
And yeah, man, like that was just Ben's song and calls back
to the first season and Jared Shaw's story.
That just really hit home. The needle drops in this in this
season is are really good. Yeah.
Big, big budget on that too. Soundtrack's been good now.
They played the actual Lynyrd Skynyrd version in the car at
(40:37):
the end, but the opening creditsare a different version.
Yeah, and what? Do you think of the opening
credits? The intro.
I like them. Pretty good Muscat.
I haven't only because I've really been trying to look for
the details. We had Tyler Booer, another
(40:58):
super fan, Jack Carr, super fan on the pod a bunch of times and
he's the man for spotting gear. He he eats up every time Jack
Carr pushes, you know, gear in the books, which turned some
people off, but he's also a gearhead.
So he was able to spot everything in Reese's.
What was it his garage or his workshop in the terminalist?
So I really like how they went with Ben's abode, slightly more
(41:19):
humble abode more. Not quite trailer park, but
almost to that level compared toReese's in season 1.
His home with a family, he settled down, he's got a
daughter, he's got all his nostalgia, he's he's got his
weapons, he's got his patches. He's like.
It's a very good contrast seeingBen Edwards personal life peek
behind the curtains than what wesaw with Reese.
(41:43):
Yeah, and I love how in the DarkWolf intro, it's like showing
with objects two different bends.
Like there's I think a sink and it doesn't have pills.
And then it does have, it has pills and some alcohol, and then
just other things around the boat like scuba tanks and spear
(42:06):
guns and then his weapons. And it just shows, like I think
him in the first season and thenhim now and him as a warrior and
then when he's off on his own. Yeah, and he fades.
I really like when that light goes to dark, he's standing in
the kitchen and and he fades. It's almost like his humanity
(42:28):
fading. I I think it's really symbolic
and well done. I think there's also a a
silhouette of someone's arm thatyou'll know if you've seen the
first season. Now I got to look for that.
Is that when he's standing there?
That's when you see that. Yeah, see, I'm not, I'm not good
(42:51):
at picking up Easter eggs. I have an attention span of like
a goldfish I guess. Well, Chris, there's a good
YouTube channel for you. We can help you out.
Yeah, I know, I know, I know. That's that's what we need.
That's what we need. Letter grade four and five is a
package. I don't know if I went like I
went B plus for Episode 1 and then I went straight A for 2/3.
(43:15):
I don't know, I think I'm going to go back down to like an A
minus for these. They're I don't know, I I still
like the progression of the story.
I like the introspection we're getting with, you know, this
sort of dichotomy between Rafe and and Ben throwing in some
action, they're throwing in someintrigue and it's got me super,
(43:37):
super looking forward to the next two episodes.
Like I can't wait for I don't know when Amazon does their
drops. Like I know it comes out
tomorrow. We're recording this on Tuesday,
September 16th. So like does it come out tonight
at midnight like or 3:00 PM likePacific Time like or 3:00 AM
Pacific Time like I don't know. But I would watch it tomorrow
(44:00):
morning if it's available. Yeah, good.
Question like get to work early and then then hide my cubicle
and watch it? Yeah, and we, we were going to
package episode 6 and seven as our final episode.
If 6 does something phenomenal that we have to kind of jump on
and get that one done, we we maydo that, but otherwise you won't
hear from us again talking Dark Wolf until episode 6 and seven
(44:23):
are out and we have a conclusion.
And we will be bringing on TylerBrewer.
So yet another Jack. Our Supervan doesn't have his
own awesome YouTube channel about Easter eggs and spoilers,
but we'll talk to him about the conclusion.
Well, why don't you leave us with a plug?
We talked a little bit about your channel.
You opened up with it. Just tell the people where they
(44:43):
can find you. And how can people get into
Terminal vengeance? Yeah, my main platform is
YouTube. I try to be consistent with my
videos and I've built a pretty good community there and I love
interacting with other fans. But you can find me at Terminal
Vengeance on YouTube, Instagram and X, and I'm also launching my
(45:07):
website here shortly. Nice, cool.
That's awesome. Yeah.
No, this was this was great. I think one, I'm happy to see
younger, the younger generation like diving into these books
and, and, and enjoying these because, you know, it wasn't
(45:27):
long ago that I was in college and my buddy Mike and my buddy
Tom handed me my first Brad Thore and and Vince pin book.
And then, you know, they had a sucker for life, the Emily
Bessler books. And but, you know, I think it's
just the more we can build this community, the better.
So I encourage all of our listeners to go out there, check
(45:50):
you out, hit hit that subscribe button.
Yeah. And I look forward to watching
more. More of your Easter eggs for
sure. Thank you.
Yeah, thanks for coming on. Maybe we'll even get a chance to
talk Cry Havoc with you once that book comes out.
So when or any other time, we'd love to have you back on on the
show. So stay in touch.
(46:12):
And and thanks for all that you do to expand the Jacquard
universe. Yeah, thank you for having me.
This has been a blast and I'd love to come back on, but if not
I'll still be listening and I love what you all do.
Appreciate it. Thanks.
Thanks dude.
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
And welcome back to this week's and no limits, the Dark Wolf
after show how you doing today, Mike?
I'm good and I am very happy to introduce a special guest.
We are joined by TV, the creatorbehind the Terminal Vengeance
(00:39):
YouTube channel, Friend of the pod for a number of years now.
Welcome TV, you got to tell us all about your channel.
Thank you all for having me. Yeah.
So I started my channel a few years ago.
I basically make what I wanted to watch on YouTube.
I wanted to see people talking about the show and nobody really
was. So I started and I do like
(01:01):
Easter egg breakdowns, find the hidden details and like the
callbacks to the book and then make a video on it and I guess
people like it. Yeah, that's that's kind of why
we want to be the after show. We want to do those spoilers as
well. We want to dig in deep, find the
Nuggets, make it accessible for anybody who just watches the
(01:22):
shows, the first Terminal of season or now Dark Wolf so that
they have an after show to go to.
But we also want to bring peopleto the books.
That's our ultimate mission. We're book readers through and
through. I I mean, you and I connected
first a few years back over the books, the terminal list and I
think Red sky morning was comingout at the time and and so that
that has to be the mission of both the show itself and all the
(01:43):
commentary about the show. Let's get people to the books
because that's where James Reeseis really James Reese.
I think on page is the James Reese I know and love.
The TV shows are fun, but we gotto get people reading the books.
They're just incredible. Oh yeah, for sure.
I think it's easier to get people to watch a show, but it's
harder to get people into books.But when they get into them,
(02:04):
they're just hooked. So it just makes my day whenever
someone says I decided to buy the book and I'm loving it.
Yeah, no, it's it's great now I love your I love your
breakdowns. Like it, you know it.
It's interesting because I want this community to be like, you
know, I don't know, I, I look atsome of the other things that I
(02:25):
want or I watch from, you know, like nerd verse, right?
You know, whether it's Marvel orX-Men, you know, like any of
these like IP machines. You know, you have a bunch of
podcasts out there, you have newrock stars, you have like the
ringer verse. You have a bunch of them yet
(02:46):
like they're they're and I don't, I feel like we're these
books aren't like that super niche.
Like they're literally New York time bestsellers.
Like every year. Like, you know, you walk through
any airport, you walk through any bookstore, you're going to
see it there and it's, it's pushed, but yet like the this
kind of community doesn't quite exist.
And so, you know, definitely, obviously love having you on and
want to elevate your stuff. I want more and more people to,
(03:10):
to like and subscribe and, and, and engage in this community
because the more people we get watching us or, you know,
watching you, listening to you, listening to us, I feel like it
just would breed other creators.You know, it just builds upon
this community that we would like to see happen.
Yeah. And I think age demographic as
(03:31):
well might be a difference. Some of those IPS you mentioned
and those channels like New Rockstar, Screen Rant, all the
others. I do wonder if older
demographics, I'm talking, you know, 50 plus would necessarily
be going to that media and content.
And I feel like they're not. But, you know, TV, your channel
speaks to a younger demographic.You yourself are, you know, on
(03:53):
the younger side, still in school.
So I feel like that, well, you need new media to do that,
right? You need the social media, you
need the podcast. And I think there's a big
opportunity. I don't know if it's years away
from channels like ours and yours popping off.
Yours has already grown massively looking at your stats.
So keep it coming. We want more of that.
What is it? A rising tide lifts all boats.
(04:14):
It's this space is definitely not crowded out like some
YouTube genres, you know, cooking, food, golf.
I feel like those things are so over saturated.
I think book YouTube is not there yet.
I think we're just on the precipice.
Yeah, for sure. You very rarely get to be the
first or the only, but sometimes, since nobody else is
(04:36):
talking about it, I am the firstor I am the only person.
And I y'all too, like I've been listening to y'all talking about
Dark Wolf and it's been great tohave someone else.
It's like when you see something, if you don't have any
friends that watch it, you want to talk to someone about it.
And that's kind of what the podcast is like.
Yeah, I mean, Mike, I don't knowif you cut ended up cutting it
(04:58):
out of the episode or not, but like we went on this rant about
the lack of cultural zeitgeist that exists in in the world and
how I'm enjoying that. You know, Amazon Prime put out
like the first 3 episodes and isputting out these episodes one
per week because one gives me something to look forward to.
I'm a busy dad. I don't have time to binge, you
(05:20):
know, shows like I used to back in in high score college, but
also like, you know, it builds some suspense for it.
And like, I'll I'll be texting Mike or I'll I'll text in our,
you know, GroupMe chat. Like, Hey, like, what did you
think about this? What do you think about that?
You know, I feel like we've gotten farther and farther away
from that as a society back to, I don't know, like when one was
a lot. I guess Game of Thrones was
(05:41):
really the last one that that was kind of like that, you know,
breaking. I remember, I remember when the
Breaking Bad season finale came out.
This is dating me and like, you know, going to work right after
that and everyone was talking about it or, you know, like when
everyone hated the season 8 of of Game of Thrones, like
everyone was talking about that.So I don't know.
But I like, I know there are people that are engaging in this
(06:03):
in this season, Dark Wolf, people at work, you know, have
randomly brought it up and they're liking it so.
I think the marketing end on theproduction team side is way
better than the terminalist season 1.
For some reason, it's more findable on Amazon is more
billboards and things you know you're seeing posted in airports
and bus stops in major metropolitan areas.
(06:25):
So I feel like things are clicking now that weren't
necessarily there on the first run of the TV show.
And I think that's resonating with all these new media groups
because even, I think it was Screen Rant did some interviews
with all the actors. And however that publicity
machine gets rolling, I'm seeingTaylor Kitsch, Tom Hooper,
they're out on tour, right? They're they're doing tons of
(06:47):
content, tons of interview with big name media outlets.
And I don't recall that happening to this level.
Maybe it's also Chris Pratt's production team.
I know he has a big role in the show.
I, I just think they have a bigger platform with Dark Wolf
than they did the terminal list.And I'm kind of glad about that
one. I, I think it's just an overall
better show. I think it's more likely to
(07:08):
drive people to the books as well.
Even though James Reese was barely a figment of our
imagination episode 1 and poof gone like one and two and wasn't
even in real two really just a little in the beginning.
So I, I feel like I'm OK if people start with Dark Wolf, get
a little taste, either watch theshow or read a book and they are
absolutely coming back to true believer.
(07:30):
And we didn't even say it. We are spoiling episodes 4:00
and 5:00 today. We already covered Chris and
I-12 and three. So TV, you're with us to talk
about four and five. These episodes are a massive
setup for True Believer. Like they're doubling down,
particularly in five with some things we get about Wraith
during the torture scene. Do you guys feel it?
(07:50):
Almost Dark Wolf is subtly and you wouldn't see it unless you
were a book reader, is subtly also teeing up True Believer to
come next year or 27 or wheneverwe get it.
Yeah, definitely. There's so many things that that
are like callbacks to the book. But like you're saying, if you
never read the book, it's not like in your face and you're not
(08:13):
getting lost when these these details are thrown in.
Yeah, I think it's, you know, weI don't know if we were talking
about this last time or, or offline.
While we love True believer as abook, I I felt like it would
have been hard, a hard jump to go from the terminalist to that
(08:34):
one, just like the way the book set up with, you know, the whole
beginning, being on a boat and traveling to Africa and all that
stuff. But then a lot of it is call
back. And so, you know, him thinking
about like the past or reminiscing about something.
And so instead of having that, you know, 1 putting it in this
origin story, in this medium here, obviously, you know, we
(08:58):
only got the the Cavs a big starin Taylor Kitsch for Ben
Edwards, and you want to get your money's worth out of that.
And I I would say he's doing very good in this episode.
And you're, you are seeing his progression, you know, teeing it
up to like, all right now. Now maybe I can understand more
of like how he, you know, and ends up switching in in in the
(09:19):
future in terminal list. So, yeah, I, I think, you know,
whoever sat down and was like, Hey, what do we do next?
I, I, I, I'm fully agreeing withlike, all right, let's take a
step back. Let's do this prequel show, you
know, because we have what we have.
And I think it it's going to make Terminal List Season 2 true
believer that much better. Yeah, perfectly said.
(09:43):
Yeah, I, I can't agree more withthat decision being the right
one as the direction to take theshow.
And sometimes you do when books go back in time, think about
Mitch Rapp, right when Vince Flynn did American Assassin and
then that trilogy never wrapped up.
Then he jumped ahead and, you know, ultimately ended up with
The Last Man. I feel like some people were
lost. Some of the readers got a little
(10:05):
confused about the timeline and it opened up this whole where do
we begin? Do you begin with American
Assassin? Do you begin with term limits or
transfer power? I could see that happening with
The Terminalist. But I think over time, let's say
they make 6-7 whatever TV shows,dark Wolf's number one, like I,
I do think of dark Wolf as like the first season you watch.
(10:25):
So I feel like that's pretty clear and it's going to make
you're right, particularly the ending of terminalist book or TV
show much because one of the biggest criticisms at the end of
the TV show kind of in the book too, is what the hell happened
with Ben? Like what his seal mate, his
seal brother. That's a very big critique of
that book. I and I understand that.
(10:47):
And then Jack was smart enough to realize that.
So he carries it over, not too many spoilers into True believer
Savage Son and maybe even beyondwhere Katie is asking how did
you know Ben wouldn't kill me? How did you know I'd survive the
attack? And so that storyline of like,
why did this happen? And this was a strange sequence
of occurrence that came out of the blue.
(11:08):
Like I don't know if the twist completely lands.
Well, that had to be unpacked under a couple of books after.
Like that was a lingering storyline, Reese and Katie's
relationship after the whole events of Ben and the debt cord
and etcetera. And I feel like Dark Wolf is
giving the space to answer that or preview that kind of get
ahead of it. So it doesn't seem as such an
(11:28):
out of the blue strange occurrence when you get to the
end of terminalist, although on TV show.
Speaking of Katie, and I don't want to bring it up too much
because there's a dark wolf podcast.
I don't know how they're going to sell the audience that Katie
and Reese are a thing or a couple.
So I I I've yet to see what they're going to do with that
and true believer. But I'm I'm putting the cart
before the horse there. We got a lot of story to tell
(11:50):
before that. Yeah, they are filming True
Believer because we will have Jack Carr coming on the podcast
and I've got to wake up at 4:30 AM for that because he is abroad
internationally filming True Believer and getting that show
on the road. So things to look forward to for
the No Limits faithful out there.
(12:11):
And TV, the Terminal Vengeance channel will also have a little
Jack car preview. Are we allowed to say that?
Yeah, I was able to talk to him a few days ago and we had a
great conversation. It'll probably be a two-part
release because I asked him somequestions about the finale, but
I'm excited to get it out there.And you guys also talk cry
(12:34):
havoc. We did, yeah.
I really enjoyed Cry Havoc and Iasked him some like general
questions. So nothing spoiled for people
who haven't read it. And yeah, you can tell how
passionate he is about Tom Reeceand his story.
And like, I asked him, like, whythis was the time to jump from
(12:58):
James Reece to Tom Reece. And we had a great conversation.
So the little there's a little of a side, but how did you get
into these books? Well, I was.
I guess I was just listening to a lot of audio books and I'd go
from subject to subject and I landed on the military and I I
(13:23):
hit like aviation and then I went into special operations and
found Jack Cars books because itwas in that section.
And I just started listening to them and immediately binge the
first three and then I was hooked.
Nice. So have you ventured out into
like other thriller reverse authors?
(13:47):
Yeah, I've started Brad Thore and Vince Flynn and then a few
others out there, but mainly those.
And so you're, you're mainly an audiobook guy.
I started out in audiobooks, butI think I like physical copies.
Now, OK, you know, Chris and I were wondering, and I thought I
(14:10):
heard it again. There was a little phone call
with Tom, not Tom Reese, with Jonathan Hastings on the phone.
And we were both wondering if either Ray Porter was that
voice. I didn't go back and listen to
it. There's another phone call here
where I'm like, Oh my God, it sounds like Ray Porter too.
So I don't know if they actuallyused him in The Dark Wolf, but
(14:31):
there's some references that totally make me think of Ray
Porter's performance in the books.
Anytime we hear a Hastings, Tom Hooper or one of these phone
calls, I'm just like, man, that's taking me back to hearing
the audio book with these Rhodesian accents and
everything. They're getting all those parts
right. Yeah, he just, the way he reads
it is so good that when I go back and read like the
(14:52):
Terminalist, I can hear his voice like I'm reading in his
voice. And I did check IMDb, it is Ray
Porter, which is really neat. All right.
Oh wow. Nice.
Chris, I think, I think you called that one on the last
episode. You also made another major
call. Maybe it's time to get into the
spoilers of Episode 4. Eliza.
(15:16):
Chris, you said on our episode 3coverage you don't trust her.
You think she might be a rat andand then episode 4 ends with the
shots in the back. What did you think when that
happened? I, I, I 100% saw it coming.
You know, you know, I feel like putting Mossad in bed with the
CIA. You know, we've, we've read too
(15:36):
many of these stories to know that it's, it's, you know, going
to go bad in, in some fashion where Israel always Trump's most
of the time, you know, what's going to go on.
But you know, I've, I feel like they were setting this up.
I'm super intrigued to see, you know, I, I know we're covering
4:00 and 5:00. So obviously setting up that,
(15:59):
you know, sort of turn there andthen immediately, you know,
confronting it. This this show waste no time.
Like, you know, I I almost feel like this show could have been
longer. Like do you guys feel that like
they could have? Completely.
Made it and not that I think it's bad, it's not like, you
know, some other shows where they're jumping around too much
and you know it it, but I I do feel like it it could have
(16:19):
deserved, you know, a longer season just to draw some of
these other things. But that being said, you know,
we jump right back into it and then having the end of the last
episode end with her death like that was just crazy to me.
It's moving quick, and I at one point asked myself, is the show
(16:43):
a little too easy? They tease something up and then
the payoff is the next scene, the cutscene.
There's no drawing it out. And so to go from one episode
she turns on him to the second episode.
It's basically Episode 5, the Eliza and Ben show.
It hits them mending that relationship, being forced into
(17:04):
mending that relationship with ahostile hit.
We get two of these massive set action pieces and they both are
basically framed with Eliza and Ben's relationship in the
background. You know, they have to go scout
out the tunnel. The guard finds them, they start
making out. So it's like even on this
tunnel, OP, are things compromised because they're
(17:24):
getting too close? And Rafe even warns him and
confronts him about that in the let's be manly and chop wood
scene. With even that, I could have
taken a longer montage of they, they like chopped 2 pieces of
wood and it's cut like, no, I want to see these hunky dudes
cutting wood. You know, like, give me, give me
at least 2 minutes of that. But they jump from that too
(17:45):
quickly. And then Eliza's blown up next
episode right after they mend things.
And I think you're right, Chris,that's a consequence of seven
episodes. I wish this was 910.
I, I, I don't know how Amazon and the studios mandated that.
So I do think the writers room is doing the best they can with
those constraints. I understand a little timeline
(18:05):
compression, understand a littlecompression of dialogue to
advance storylines and relationships quicker than I
would like. And the one that is kind of
taking a backseat in episode 4 and five and and maybe why I'm a
little lower on them, Moe's justgone.
Like that impacted me not havingMO after the shootout.
(18:26):
It, it seems like, well, not to say too much, but it seems like
it wasn't a mortal wound, like it was shot under the vest
somewhere in in the side in the oblique or something.
So it just seems like they're moving a little too quickly, but
then they're ignoring some storylines like that that I
loved. Maybe that's them trying to say
the team is split up. Like we haven't even seen
(18:47):
Haverford really after he took out the physicist.
So I guess this is trying to saythe team's in shambles.
The team is spread out. This is the Ben and Eliza show.
Now. I really do help hope.
I know there's only two episodesleft.
I do hope we get the MO Show andthe Jed Haverford show because I
I want that equally as much as we've had screen time with Ben
and Eliza these two episodes. Yeah, I think part of that might
(19:13):
be the consequence of having a lot of major characters.
And I'm, I'm curious to see if people who haven't read True
Believer have the same critique on MO because we know he's a big
character, but other people aren't really going to know
that. Sure, we were so high on MO and
(19:36):
even Landry being tossed in hereearly because we know what's to
come with them. If I were an outsider, I think
looking at MO, I'd be fine with it by the look at Landry and be
like the Hell's going on with this guy, which again is is
teeing something up. But I don't know if I want to
say they're mishandled in their their storylines.
MO I don't think was in episodes123, but I might say, yeah, it's
(19:58):
being mishandled now. And so I'm curious what 6 and
seven will do to bring the team back.
Does the team need to come back?But we need to see more of MO
and Jed and and those characters.
I really love that they put a lot of time and effort in too
early. Like we even get a tall show
here. Tall has her scene.
And I was really glad about thatbecause I needed to see that
great, great combat scene, hand to hand action scene.
(20:21):
Someone commented under my review for Dark Wolf and they
said if there was a girl boss fight, then they were going to
be out of the show. And I knew that one was going,
but they did not. Yeah, they did not do the like
standard girl boss fight. It was like she was really
getting rocked and she was even like screaming for help and she
(20:44):
had to use like improvised weapons and stuff.
But that was a killer fight. Yeah, and I think it played up
it it was believable, you know, because we know that built from
like the well, I don't know, thefirst or second episode, you
know, when she struggled like pulling out that gun, like she
didn't just immediately get the shots off and and get it.
She had to struggle with it, youknow, like you said, weapon
(21:08):
improvisation. And even to the fact that right
after she killed the dude, she had to throw up.
Like, you know, she it's emotional, it's raw, it's it's
true to her character. And I feel like they're doing a
really good job of, you know, 1 developing each of the
characters. But then, like you said, Mike
(21:29):
giving them their like moment. And I do need to see more of a
Haverford moment. I feel like we were kind of
peeling back the onion of him in.
I don't know if it was episode 4with with Ray from the phone
call, but I want to see more of him.
And then I definitely want to talk to you guys about like the
(21:50):
rape scene, like in in in this whole interrogation and and then
ultimately finding out that, hey, this guy is actually
undercover. I was a little confused.
So we supposed to take it to mean that he was undercover or
that entire team was a German operative team?
I guess we don't. Do we not know?
That's the question. This colleague network was
(22:13):
somehow involved with the transfer of these bearings.
And I guess the question is, wasGerman intelligence compromised
and actually someone in German intelligence, this guy's boss or
even this guy who's being tortured working alongside them?
This guy's trying to sell. No, we weren't.
Then are they like Mossad? Are they trying to undermine the
Iranian nuclear program? Did they put fake bearings in?
(22:35):
Because at one time Ben is manipulating the bearings in
that cinema museum rundown warehouse thing and and Eliza
sees him playing with the bearings and he says something's
not right about these. So is this a German intelligence
op? Is, is Germany undermining the
Iranian nuke deal? They actually want them to have
centrifuges. So they're trying to get them
(22:56):
the right bearings. I that's one of those mystery
boxes that I'm kind of happy with.
So, yeah, the torture scene withRafe Jack car through and
through, right. If if James Reese isn't going to
be the one doing a torture scene, give it to Rafe Hastings.
Make him the bad ass mother fucker doing it.
So I was completely happy with that.
(23:17):
I don't know, I think the Germanthing is up for grabs and this
kind of parallels the shepherd. The Shepherd is compromising
submission and Mossad wants to figure it out.
That's why Eliza and Tal were actually tailing Jed, trying to
see, is he in on the game? Is the Shepherd playing him?
Is the Shepherd like this deep, deep covered double mole, secret
(23:39):
mole that ultimately is running Jed?
Is that what's going on here? And I think by looping in the
Germans and the Iranian nukes, we're seeing the consequences of
that. Whatever the Shepherd's able to
do is now having all these downstream effects of other
intelligence agencies having shootouts in European cities and
some terrorist network involved and bombs going off and car
bombs is a Mossad. Is it this colleague network?
(24:03):
Is it whoever is working with this German guy?
Is it Jed and the Shepherd? Like I think there's so many
mystery boxes that six and seven's got to land this plane.
We have to start getting answersto some of these things.
But I am bought into each of those storylines as its own
thread. Do you, would you agree?
TV on your channel? Have you talked about the
mystery box of it all and who's really the bad guy here?
(24:27):
I haven't gotten into the recentepisodes, but one thing that I
liked about the torture scene and how that played out was I
think it really illustrates the fog of war well.
And even the bearings and the Khalid network, nobody really
(24:48):
knows what's going on. The audience doesn't know you're
right there with them. And I think even like episode 1
with Duron, there's some things that aren't black and white, and
I think Dark Wolf shows that andthey go somewhere that most
shows probably wouldn't dare. Yeah, no, there there's, I think
(25:13):
look back to the scene of, you know, Ben Edwards just capping a
dude in the middle of a subway right after smiling at a little
girl. Like, you know, it's the show is
like I said, it's it's a little raw.
It's, you know, kind of showing you the trying to show you the
inner workings of, you know, CIAoperatives, that kind of stuff.
(25:35):
I think look back to some other shows that have done this really
well. I think Homeland, the first
couple seasons, you know, slow horses.
I don't know if you guys have watched that show, but yeah,
like it's it's interesting to see.
I have no idea where I, you know, where this is going to go.
(25:55):
And I think that's ultimately a good thing.
I think it's like you said, Mike, I'm, I'm intrigued enough
and I'm not disappointed that like I'm, I'm pissed off like,
you know, other shows, like whenyou don't have enough intrigue
or there's too many loose ends with two episodes to go, you
know, you can kind of like checkout or be like, I'm not buying
(26:17):
the show. But here I do think they have a
chance to quote UN quote and land the plane and wrap
everything up in the next two episodes.
And then hopefully, you know, sail us into a true believer.
So. Yeah, I'm, I'm a harsh critic on
both TV and books. So on the podcast I've had a lot
of hot takes. I will say I could very easily
(26:40):
be turned off by some of that and go, I don't really care who
the shepherd is. This is this is ridiculous.
No, I really care. Like I really want to know who's
running who. And they sold me so hard on Jed
being the good soldier, right? Being the the faithful one, his
whole life is in this decades ofexperience.
He was involved in Stuxnet, he was involved in other
(27:03):
operations, even mentioned Lebanon and Beirut and really
cool flashback. They even show footage from the
Beirut bombings. And knowing that was another one
of Jack Carr's books and one of his, you know, personal pet
projects with amazing book by the way, to actually bring that
into the show and have that withthe character of Jed.
I was loving. I was eating it up.
(27:24):
I was lapping it out of their hands and now Mossad is trying
to convince us Jed is compromised.
Jed's been being played. I'm very much bought into that.
So I'd be the first one to critique these things if I
didn't think they were working, if I thought they were cheap
cuts or easy way out or they're taking shortcuts, cheap shots.
I not at all. I think they built this up
(27:44):
really well. I think the storytelling is
great, and maybe that's because they're unburdened by a book.
The Terminal is first season. Some of the best parts and
characters were people off book that the screenwriters just felt
free to do so and tell the storythey need to tell, write
dialogue they need to write. And some of the scenes that
didn't land were ones where theytried too hard to be faithful to
(28:07):
the book but couldn't or didn't and it got sloppy.
I feel like the show really has the freedom to let the writers
do what they need to do and tellthe story they need to tell and
it's and it's mostly working. Yeah, I think they have.
I think this is what happens when you have like 10 master
storytellers together instead of1 and they get it.
(28:29):
Create something and everybody gets to put their input in and
the best idea wins instead of I mean the books are really good,
but when you have a bunch of people to bounce ideas off of, I
think you really get the best product you can.
And I'm just looking at like thewriters of each individual show,
(28:52):
you know, or each individual episode.
So we have episode 1 was story by Jack Carr and Dave Djilio,
who producer on the show. Then we have two episodes by
Matt Mac Adams, episodes two andthree.
And that you can kind of see like, you know, thinking back to
those two, they they kind of hada a cohesion to them.
(29:17):
And then I'm looking to see what's coming up.
So episode 6, it's called titledPawns and Kings is written by
Mad Max Adams and then Jared Shaw, who we know is Boozer and
also producer on the show. And then we finish up with the
the season finales written by Jack Carr and David Digilio
again. So.
(29:39):
Interesting. I'm I'm kind of very happy to
hear that the last two episodes have Jared Shaw, Jack David
Degilio working on it because yes, the screenwriters, all the
other people who are in the roomputting in their two cents, but
just those names as well-being in the room.
You're you're right TV and saying that is just a masterful
(30:01):
lineup and we're seeing that come through now.
Did you all catch and I could have been mistaken.
Did Gordo come back from the dead?
Gordo, the man himself, Jack Carr, was he one of those bad
guys in the tunnel shootout? I think he was the guy who tried
to get out of the SUV in the passenger side and just got shot
(30:23):
immediately after they they boxed him in.
I could be wrong, but actually Icould hold it up to the screen.
I really think that was Jack Carr cameo.
Do you know anything about that TV?
If if I'm right on that. He's posted some pictures on
Instagram. There he is, the man, the
legend. The only character in the
terminal is to come back from the dead.
(30:43):
Yeah, I talked to him the other day and he was saying that they
were planning on him being able to get a few shots off, but the
timing wasn't right, so he had to go down immediately.
Yeah. He I, I saw that he posted.
He's like I, I, I, I think he said he lasted less than not as
(31:07):
long as he did in in terminalistso.
He actually got like a walk up scene in that one where you see
him in the mirror and he's walking into the restaurant.
Yeah, it was quicker here. That's funny.
Oh, so Speaking of these action scenes, these shoot outs, we we
essentially have between these two episodes, the tunnel hit and
that's compromised the hostel and that whole shoot out and
(31:31):
then we have the towel fight. Do you feel like each of those
did enough to live up to what they established?
I mean, when we opened with thatbridge scene when we were on the
front lines of Iraq, I think they swung big in that they are
going to get the action, the military, the shootouts, right.
These two episodes I felt in thetwo big set action pieces
pivoted to more of like a video game, almost not easy to buy
(31:55):
into. It almost seemed like these
these bad guys were just being spawned.
All of a sudden they're like MPGS just spawning out of the
blue. It reminded me of Tom Clancy,
like playing Rainbow 6 and having to do, I don't know about
you guys, but I spent hours on the library trying to take down
all the guys in the library and the terrorists.
Just you turn a corner and then you know exactly where they're
going to spawn each time. I don't know.
(32:16):
I was a little taken out of it by the video game esqueness of
it all in those two shootouts. So as action set pieces, they
just fell a little lower for me than what they had in the first
few episodes. I don't know if you feel the
same way. I don't know I I'll agree with
you that the when they're at thehostel scene like that, but
(32:37):
while it was cool and like you know showing off Ben and and I
blanket on her name, but Eliza what's her name?
Eliza's you know readiness as operators.
Yeah, like they're kind of they know exactly where like the
shoot is going to pop and I guess it's kind of showing their
ability to work together. Like even though like they're
(32:59):
just like kind of met each other.
I did really like the tunnel scene.
I felt like that captured this, you know, close net the the way
they shot it. Like they were very close on
like, you know, wasn't like this.
We didn't really see this wide perspective.
We were close in with the, you know, people as they're going
and multiple times in these two episodes and we've we've seen
(33:22):
this throughout the series wherethey do like, you know, when a
bomb goes off or a frag goes off, they'll they'll slow
motion, but like the, the sound is still saying staying the same
speed. And then they speed it, you
know, and then they quickly speed up the camera again to
bring it back into Pat. Like how many times is Ben
Edwards going going to get a good shot or, or have to jump
out of a, an exploding vehicle or, or jump from some sort of
(33:47):
explosion? And and and and be, you know,
still OK, but I, yeah, I, I, I'll agree with you a little bit
on the for sure the hostile scene, but I did, I did quite
like the ton of scene. We, we said in the first 3
episodes it wasn't Grey Manesque, it wasn't over the top
bombastic violence and the shootouts were, were not
believable. And then this episode I felt
(34:09):
like it was a little more Grey Manesque.
You know, he's just surviving everything and then the car bomb
at the end. So TV, I'll let you go.
But yeah, I, I agree with you there.
Just felt a little bit less realistic then they established
early on. Yeah, And I guess one thing
would be earlier on in the season, Ben and his team are in
(34:30):
control of the fight, Sure. And at this point, he's not with
his team and he doesn't get to choose which cards he's going to
get. He's really getting rocked in
those fights and he he doesn't really have control like he did
it earlier on. I guess that speaks, that's a
(34:51):
great point. I guess it speaks to the
resources available when ACIA lone Wolf or dark wolf
operation, you know, couple of you guys just out on on the
fronts in the middle of a residential European city versus
a battlefield, an entire QRF on standby air support, gunboat
support, which I had on the river.
You know, the 50 cals, it's, it's really just you in the
(35:15):
street hiding behind walls and barriers, trying to blend in,
trying to escape. So I think you're right.
Maybe that speaks to the different mission parameters and
resources available on ACIA Black Ops team when things go
South verse a military front lines battle where things go
South, totally different procedures, totally different
set of operating rules. And so yeah, I that makes it
(35:37):
more viable, more believable to me.
I think that's a great point. And it's a far cry from when we
saw Rafe and Ben acting as thesewolves, you know, when they're
trying to take down the the one arms dealer in what was that
episode 2 in the audition to now, you know, and it's even
(35:59):
echoed with Hastings is, you know, reservations about this
operation in terms of 1 collateral damage.
Two, we don't have the full picture, but you know, again, I
think it's also like that progression of Ben Edwards's
character in to how he's just has to continue on down this
(36:20):
path. And like, there's no going back
to him being like he was in the teams, you know, Like, yeah, he
has that knowledge, but he is becoming, you know, this entity
and that that is what these people do.
And that's the theme of Put on the Brakes, Rafe and Ben having
different philosophies. Rafe is totally now like, shit,
(36:40):
I should have put the brakes on.Like I, I took the guardrails
off hit and killing this German intelligence guy, torturing and
killing a friendly on in German intelligence.
Ben would be Ben and Eliza wouldbe like, I don't care.
Like mission above self, missionabove allies, mission above all
else, kind of the Mossad tagline, if you will, the
(37:01):
Israeli self determination self preservation line.
And Rafe is, I think, skirting with that and realizing that's
not where I want to go, and that's not where I want my
country to go. That's where I don't want my
country's intelligence apparatusto be forced to go.
And we're seeing Ben basically say, I'm fine playing by those
rules, especially now that they took Eliza from him when he
(37:21):
takes the bracelet. I'm wondering if that bracelet
was also a tracking or listeningdevice.
I'm curious about the bracelet. Hopefully, I'm not too much of A
skeptic. Hopefully it's just a nice, you
know, heartfelt story about it and her child and her daughter.
I just think that's the difference between Ben and Rafe,
which has also been very compelling of where.
Where do they come out on the other side?
(37:42):
Let's say both of them finish this up, survive it or out of
the game, if you will. As much as you can be out of the
game, Where they come out on theopposite side is miles apart.
And they were both brought into the game in the same, on the
same page, being kicked out of the teams, having to cover for
each other, lying to military command, putting their asses on
(38:03):
the line, making up this fake story.
The Brotherhood is going to stick together no matter what.
Covering for Ben Now Ben goes loose cannon and Rafe is trying
to reel it in and realize I didn't want to go that far.
They started a little closer together.
They're going to end up on the other side, miles apart, which
again illuminates things that happened later on down the road.
(38:24):
So it's a great prequel story. It's a great story on its own.
It's an amazing prequel story toBen Edwards and Ray Hastings.
Alright, TV, why don't you give us some predictions for what you
think how this story is going toend in the next two episodes?
Oh. Dangerous.
I've I've actually seen the other episodes already.
(38:47):
Oh do you have Wow got some screeners?
Did they have the watermark on them?
They did, yeah. Yeah.
OK. Oh.
So I guess, I guess we, we don'twant, we don't want put you any
sort of compromising and I I don't want any spoilers.
But you've, you've been good then holding back with us and
(39:07):
with the audience. You've been really good at
holding back and sticking to episode by episode without
jumping the gun. Kudos.
Yeah, it's made so well, I wouldnot want to spoil it for
anybody. OK, that's great.
That's great. It's good to hear.
How about this then? How about episodes four and five
as a package? What would you give us a letter
(39:29):
grade? You know, imagine you're, you're
sitting through your exams. What's the, what's the letter
grade you get? And then overall so far on what
you've seen in the season, what would you give overalls letter
grade? Oh.
I'm John the Spot a different way.
Yeah, I'm not a very harsh critic, but seeing Wraith be the
(39:54):
character that we know from the books and seen the fights that I
expected when I saw the teasers,I'm going with an A.
And man, another moment from Episode 5 that just gave me
chills was when Simple Man came on.
(40:15):
And yeah, man, like that was just Ben's song and calls back
to the first season and Jared Shaw's story.
That just really hit home. The needle drops in this in this
season is are really good. Yeah.
Big, big budget on that too. Soundtrack's been good now.
They played the actual Lynyrd Skynyrd version in the car at
(40:37):
the end, but the opening creditsare a different version.
Yeah, and what? Do you think of the opening
credits? The intro.
I like them. Pretty good Muscat.
I haven't only because I've really been trying to look for
the details. We had Tyler Booer, another
(40:58):
super fan, Jack Carr, super fan on the pod a bunch of times and
he's the man for spotting gear. He he eats up every time Jack
Carr pushes, you know, gear in the books, which turned some
people off, but he's also a gearhead.
So he was able to spot everything in Reese's.
What was it his garage or his workshop in the terminalist?
So I really like how they went with Ben's abode, slightly more
(41:19):
humble abode more. Not quite trailer park, but
almost to that level compared toReese's in season 1.
His home with a family, he settled down, he's got a
daughter, he's got all his nostalgia, he's he's got his
weapons, he's got his patches. He's like.
It's a very good contrast seeingBen Edwards personal life peek
behind the curtains than what wesaw with Reese.
(41:43):
Yeah, and I love how in the DarkWolf intro, it's like showing
with objects two different bends.
Like there's I think a sink and it doesn't have pills.
And then it does have, it has pills and some alcohol, and then
just other things around the boat like scuba tanks and spear
(42:06):
guns and then his weapons. And it just shows, like I think
him in the first season and thenhim now and him as a warrior and
then when he's off on his own. Yeah, and he fades.
I really like when that light goes to dark, he's standing in
the kitchen and and he fades. It's almost like his humanity
(42:28):
fading. I I think it's really symbolic
and well done. I think there's also a a
silhouette of someone's arm thatyou'll know if you've seen the
first season. Now I got to look for that.
Is that when he's standing there?
That's when you see that. Yeah, see, I'm not, I'm not good
(42:51):
at picking up Easter eggs. I have an attention span of like
a goldfish I guess. Well, Chris, there's a good
YouTube channel for you. We can help you out.
Yeah, I know, I know, I know. That's that's what we need.
That's what we need. Letter grade four and five is a
package. I don't know if I went like I
went B plus for Episode 1 and then I went straight A for 2/3.
(43:15):
I don't know, I think I'm going to go back down to like an A
minus for these. They're I don't know, I I still
like the progression of the story.
I like the introspection we're getting with, you know, this
sort of dichotomy between Rafe and and Ben throwing in some
action, they're throwing in someintrigue and it's got me super,
(43:37):
super looking forward to the next two episodes.
Like I can't wait for I don't know when Amazon does their
drops. Like I know it comes out
tomorrow. We're recording this on Tuesday,
September 16th. So like does it come out tonight
at midnight like or 3:00 PM likePacific Time like or 3:00 AM
Pacific Time like I don't know. But I would watch it tomorrow
(44:00):
morning if it's available. Yeah, good.
Question like get to work early and then then hide my cubicle
and watch it? Yeah, and we, we were going to
package episode 6 and seven as our final episode.
If 6 does something phenomenal that we have to kind of jump on
and get that one done, we we maydo that, but otherwise you won't
hear from us again talking Dark Wolf until episode 6 and seven
(44:23):
are out and we have a conclusion.
And we will be bringing on TylerBrewer.
So yet another Jack. Our Supervan doesn't have his
own awesome YouTube channel about Easter eggs and spoilers,
but we'll talk to him about the conclusion.
Well, why don't you leave us with a plug?
We talked a little bit about your channel.
You opened up with it. Just tell the people where they
(44:43):
can find you. And how can people get into
Terminal vengeance? Yeah, my main platform is
YouTube. I try to be consistent with my
videos and I've built a pretty good community there and I love
interacting with other fans. But you can find me at Terminal
Vengeance on YouTube, Instagram and X, and I'm also launching my
(45:07):
website here shortly. Nice, cool.
That's awesome. Yeah.
No, this was this was great. I think one, I'm happy to see
younger, the younger generation like diving into these books
and, and, and enjoying these because, you know, it wasn't
(45:27):
long ago that I was in college and my buddy Mike and my buddy
Tom handed me my first Brad Thore and and Vince pin book.
And then, you know, they had a sucker for life, the Emily
Bessler books. And but, you know, I think it's
just the more we can build this community, the better.
So I encourage all of our listeners to go out there, check
(45:50):
you out, hit hit that subscribe button.
Yeah. And I look forward to watching
more. More of your Easter eggs for
sure. Thank you.
Yeah, thanks for coming on. Maybe we'll even get a chance to
talk Cry Havoc with you once that book comes out.
So when or any other time, we'd love to have you back on on the
show. So stay in touch.
(46:12):
And and thanks for all that you do to expand the Jacquard
universe. Yeah, thank you for having me.
This has been a blast and I'd love to come back on, but if not
I'll still be listening and I love what you all do.
Appreciate it. Thanks.
Thanks dude.
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