June 29, 2020 • 38 mins
Welcome to No Need to Ask Podcast. My name is Amani Duncan and I will be your host on this journey.
On this episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Teddy Tinson to discuss the topic of "The Intersection of Blackness & Queerness".
TEDDY TINSON is a contributing reporter at the New York Times and a creative consultant for Academy award winning Director Steven Soderbergh.
Previously, Tinson worked as a Fashion Assistant with the late designer Oscar de la Renta, then Vogue Magazine assistant to Mr. Andre Leon Talley, followed by contributing roles at Andy Warhol's Interview and Hello Mr. magazines.
One of Tinson's favorite articles is one he penned for the New York Times entitled "Breaking the TV Mold".
Teddy recommended the following books as suggested reading:
"Thick" by Tressie McMillian Cottom
"White Fragility" by Robin DiAngelo
"How to Be an Antiracist" by Ibram Kendi
This episode is one of my favorites. I learned so much from Teddy and I hope you do as well!
If you enjoy the podcast, please leave a review.
Happy Pride!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
[inaudible] [inaudible]
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of know me to ask
podcast.
My name is Amani Duncan, and Iwill be your host on this
journey.
I am very excited about thisepisode, I think is very timely
and really important.
And I'm even more excited aboutour guests today.
(00:46):
Teddy Tensen.
He is currently a contributingreporter at the New York times.
He is also a creative consultantfor the Academy award winning
director.
Steven Sonnenburg previouslyTeddy worked as a fashion
assistant with the latedesigner, Oscar de LA Renta.
(01:07):
Then he went to Bo working withAndre Leon Talley, followed by
contributing roles at AndyWarhols interview.
And hello, mr.
Magazines, select media that youcan find some of Teddy's work is
in the wall street journal wmagazine GQ, New York magazine
(01:29):
essence refinery 29.
Hi, snobbery.
I mean the list just goes on andon and on, and Teddy's a
graduate, um, as Syracuseuniversity.
So without further ado, pleasewelcome to no need to ask
podcasts, Teddy Tennyson.
Hi Teddy.
(01:51):
Well, like I said earlier, I amso excited to have you on my
little podcast.
This is going to be such a greatshow with such a great topic.
And I feel as my duty on thisplatform to keep highlighting
stories, as you guys all know, Ilove to tell stories and
highlights stories of peoplethat I admire and respect.
(02:14):
So I'm, I'm just really excitedto get into this topic with
Teddy, but before we drill down,um, you know, if you go to a
Teddy's website, which is Teddytensen.com, um, it's a beautiful
website.
Everyone.
I highly suggest that youvisited, but there's this
beautiful home by, um, the poetNariah Y heed.
(02:39):
And it goes to say, given toyour uniqueness, the very thing
you've been fighting not to bein your whole life is the very
thing that is your genius.
And so Teddy, I would love tostart out with you, um, telling
us, like, why did you pick thispoem to be kind of the
(03:03):
centerpiece, um, you know, likethe opening statement to your
website?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Well, thank you very much.
Um, I stumbled across a poem.
Uh, I want to say sometime in2018 when I was, uh, building
the site, which came out of anecessity for me to, uh, put
myself out there because I'vebeen working behind the scenes
for over a decade, um, reallypulling groom, um, talent, um,
(03:35):
many of your faves faves, um,across industries.
And so this would be really away of me putting myself out
there for the first time,really, and also, um, really
owning the parts of myself thatI've been, um, a little loath to
(03:56):
fully embrace, including both myblackness and my queerness,
because I was, um, raised to becompetent and yes, I'm black and
I'm proud.
And I came out in my early teensand so that the struggle of it
all was never really an issue.
So it was only in my latetwenties working in the
(04:19):
industries that I work in, wheremy blackness and my queerness
started to become issues, um, inthe workplace in society and
dating and all of these areas oflife.
And so that poem really justspoken to me in a way that, um,
allowed me to really embrace thefullness of who I am.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I love that.
Wow, what a, what a journey.
I'm just like, I have so manyquestions that I will hold just
a bed because I want to dig moreinto your illustrious career.
Um, I am a fashion file.
I love all things fashion.
Um, and I love the written word.
(04:59):
So you're like the perfectcombination of two of my loves
and you've written for so manymagazines and publications that
we all, you know, keep and readon a daily basis.
So I'm just curious, like, howdid you know all of this come
together for you as a career?
(05:19):
I mean, it there's film, there'sfashion, there's journalism.
Um, you know, for me personally,I didn't strive to be in the
music industry.
I was always in my mind destinedto be an attorney.
And so I kind of fell into mycareer in the music industry.
Um, really it's just kind ofspontaneously.
(05:43):
It was just like almosthappenstance.
And it, it was a combination ofbeing at the right place at the
right time.
Um, that led to me actuallygetting my first job in the
industry and the rest ishistory.
So talk to us about, like, howdid, how did all of this come
together for you?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
It really was a divine intervention.
I mean, that's still, that's thebest way to put it.
Uh, I studied, um, a multitudeof things in school.
Um, I've been a lifelong artist.
I was always in acting andsinging and dancing lessons
growing up, um, and painting anddrawing and all that stuff as
(06:23):
well.
And so it wasn't until, um,maybe middle school, what I
really got into fashion.
Uh, and then high school, Iwould design things for friends.
And then in college I started, Iadded design to my studies.
Um, but because I was atSyracuse, um, and studying other
(06:43):
, um, classical art forms, I,the, the fashion program wasn't
as robust as I needed it to bebecause I wasn't at like Parsons
or if it, or something likethat, my teachers really
understood that.
And they really nurtured me andencouraged me, um, to, you know,
(07:07):
internist as quickly aspossible.
And so I, uh, started interning,um, with mr.
Del Renta as my firstinternship, which was, you know,
a point of divine interventionto itself.
And that's credible.
That's where I met, uh, sir,Andre, Leon Talley, my second
week there.
(07:27):
And we bonded because, you know,of course I was the only one.
Um, and I was good and I workedhard and all those things, but,
um, so I need to go liking to meand then that really just
snowballed my career.
So from there, um, it's reallybeen about relationship building
(07:52):
and about, uh, really just, youknow, paying gliding one thing
to the next.
So I've had a, rather anontraditional career path,
partly out of necessity, butalso partly because of my
multidisciplinary background.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
So, you know, talking about fashion and diversity, do
you find that there are morepeople of color in, um, you
know, positions within fashionhouses?
Like, has it, what's thetrajectory been from your point
of view?
Has it gotten better or is itstill a struggle to have
(08:32):
representation, um, in thefashion industry?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
That's a good question.
There is still, um, a lack ofequity across the board.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
[inaudible]
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Breaking the TV
Speaker 2 (08:56):
News mold.
Um, can you talk to us about whythat particular article was one
of your favorites?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
That particular story means a lot to me because it
reminded me of all the women whoshaped, who I've become.
Um, and so for me, it was reallyimportant to showcase, um, as
objectively as possible, ofcourse, but sunny Austin, my
(09:25):
Wiley, and certainly to Maxwellwell, because I, I think they
represent three different typesof black beauty they're lawyers.
And they've also made thesecareer pivots as political
pundits and or analysts, um, andreally just showing the breadth
and the depth and the scope ofwho and what we are as a people
(09:47):
and how many fashions that isand how it's all excellent and
how that manifests through hair.
Um, shortly while I was workingon that story, that's when the
air laws started to change inNew York and California.
I think the protective stylemovement over the last decade or
so is really inspiring just toshow case the fullness of who
(10:11):
and what we are and how we canexpress ourselves through our
exterior and being like Sonnysaid, I mean, and the articles,
you know, people think if you'reglamorous or if you pay
attention to what you wear, howyou, your hair, that you're not
smart, and that's just true andmass, we have to dispel those
(10:33):
myths as well.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
We're going to actually link in the description
for this episode, the, um, usarticle, because I think it's
really important for everyone tojust take a, take a read because
I feel it will resonate withmost of our listeners.
So thank you tidy for sharingthat.
Um, I can only assume youreceived a lot of positive
(10:55):
feedback,
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Something to be said, and there there's sort of a
precedent for this, going backto slavery.
You know, the idea of Sunday'sbest.
We always have to put our bestfoot forward in every aspect of
our lives, just to be seen andto be heard.
So it's about, I like theseshoes or I like that outfit, or
I like this hairdo.
(11:16):
It's about, what's going toallow me to succeed.
What's going to best set me upfor success.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
It's so true.
I remember my, my father wouldleave home every day in a three
piece suit and tie every singleday.
And he worked abroad.
Um, for many years he worked inSaudi Arabia and I would always
ask him, why did he dressed upto go to the airport?
(11:44):
And he said, it was just easierto maneuver and get through
customs and immigrations.
Um, if you had a white colored
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Shirt on and a suit jacket, so it, yeah.
And it's so amazing, the storiesof our youth that our parents
pass on to us.
They may not have, um, profoundimpact at the time that they're
sharing the story.
But as you mature as an adult,it definitely takes on a very
(12:17):
different meaning and has a veryprofound impact in our lives.
Um, I feel like we're wearingour Sunday bass or at least I'm
wearing my Sunday best every daythat I wake up.
So I also want us to be able toshow up to the airport in sweat
(12:37):
and slides.
And that would be okay too,because I think that's literally
, it goes into respectabilitypolitics a bit dangerous still.
You want to be able to do an ador two, you know,
Speaker 1 (13:09):
[inaudible],
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I just want to jump right into our topic because
it's going to be good.
And I feel like I'm also goingto walk away with a tremendous
amount of learning.
So the topic is the intersectionof blackness and queerness.
Um, can you kinda talk usthrough, like, what exactly is
(13:36):
that we're living in it'sAmerican history, um, besides
American history, because, youknow, uh, we are American black
people are American, and ifyou're an immigrant, then there
are some cases where you'reAfrican American, but I really
(13:58):
want to embrace blackness, youknow, um, it's beautiful, black
power, black lives matter, allblack lives matter, et cetera,
et cetera.
But at the end of the day, we'reAmerican.
And I think it's important inthis moment that we stay that
claim because so many people tryto Rob us of that identity.
(14:18):
And when we think about it,whether we're talking slavery or
through the Harlem Renaissance,through the civil rights
movement, and even to Stonewallriots with Marsha P Johnson and
Sylvia Rivera, we've always beenat the intersection of blackness
and queerness.
(14:40):
He saved us whether we'retalking from a point of culture
or point of policy.
So a personal hero of mine ismr.
BioTrust and he is fororganizing the 1963 March on
Washington.
He was a key advisor to dr.
Martin Luther King jr.
And he was pushed into theshadows because he was openly
(15:01):
gay and
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Mmm.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
You know, he was advised that he not be the face
not to muddy the messaging ofdr.
King or the optics of that.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Oh, so quick question on that.
When you say he was advised, areyou referring to people within
the movement,
Speaker 3 (15:28):
People within the movement?
Yes.
Much like we see today with theblack lives matter movement.
Why we have to clarify all blacklives matter, including queer
and trans people.
And even because often times theSandra Blands and the Rihanna
tailors are left out of theconversation right before we get
(15:49):
to the Tony make dates or theMalaysia bookers or, or the Nina
POS of the world.
Um, we're still fighting in truecommunity racism in the form of
colorism and homophobia andtransphobia, queer phobia, and
also misogyny right intoeverything I'm going to say of
(16:13):
the civil rights movement andrumor that there were people
that were, uh, you know,whispering that maybe he and dr.
Keeney were lovers, which isn'ttrue, but the optics of that,
um, really push him outside ofit.
Also coupled with the fact thathe was known to, um, engage in
(16:36):
interracial relationships.
Um, so not only was he outproud, but he was also, um,
invested in interracialrelationships.
And so that did not bode well orcertain leaders within the
movement, not dr.
King himself, but other thefront line leaders.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Wow.
I mean, I was, you know, I'mjust going to put it out there.
I was not aware of backyarduntil you and I talked about it,
um, which speaks volumes becauseI'm an educated black woman, um,
(17:16):
minimizing the voices of, ofincredible thought leaders.
Like Biard, um, simply becauseof their choices, it just, it's
just like racism internally, youknow, bigotry and within the
race and outside of the race.
And, um, it's just, I don'tknow.
(17:37):
I just still, it still hits mehard when I hear stories like
this.
Um, because it was, it was like,he's, he's respected as, you
know, a leader within themovement, but then not respected
as a leader.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah.
I mean, think about, think aboutour language today.
Right?
Most of what is the, uh,American colloquial lexicon?
I mean, they say throwing shadeon the 10 o'clock news across
the country.
I come from Paris is burningculture where we talk about
(18:18):
bears late.
We talk about slang.
You know, many of the words usedby straight white men and women
it's started and originated inqueer black and Brown spaces.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
So, you know, the only thing I can connect that to
his ignorance, like, I don'tthink they even realize where it
comes from.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
No, because it's been so sanitized over time.
Right.
Delineate.
And because we're forced to,because of marginalized people
by and large, uh, much like mycareer trajectory, like we
remarked on before thatinnovation oftentimes comes out
of necessity, right.
One afforded the sameopportunities as our peers or
(19:11):
white peers or whatever it maybe we're forced to innovate.
So by the time, you know, peoplewere saying throwing shade,
that's that's last decade, lastcentury last,
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I mean, even let's just even talk about Madonna,
you know, and the whole voguingVino,
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Absolutely prime example,
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Did we even realize the origins, uh, voguing?
Like I just, you know, it kindamakes me think about
subconscious and even consciousbiases, like, you know, are, do
people, is it just someconscious or is it just okay,
because one of the biggest popstars in the world made it.
(20:02):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I don't know.
I think it's not either, or, butboth as most of, you know, um,
think that, you know, why isn'tthis book, the one that's making
the change.
And I'd say, because they'regoing to hear that message
differently from alleged whitewoman than they will from you or
(20:27):
me from Angela Davis or TonyMoore.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Amazing, amazing.
So I, you know, I want to alsotouch on, you know, going back
in history with Bay yard, um,you know, talk to us about like
the circle that, or how he usedhis influence.
I really want people to walkaway from this episode with a
very clear understanding of theimpact that was made, um, from a
(21:01):
person that was deemed notappropriate,
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I'll be upfront.
So this isn't, this isn'tnothing new.
Let's take it back to the DNA,the first besties, if you will,
uh, or it's not the beginning,but a story of order or it's
LinkedIn use and it Zora NealeHurston, right?
So black cane queer literaryicons.
(21:29):
So lincston writes Harlem is aseries of poems, um, which
includes a dream deferred.
And this is 51 or so LorraineHansberry, another black and
queer literary icon who wassports to I, the exploration of
(21:53):
her own LGBTQ newness, um, isinspired and writes a raisin in
the sun based on a line from oneof Langston's poems.
She has this son of finishedwork called young gifted and
black.
At this time, she befriends NinaSimone, Nina Simone is known as
(22:17):
a musician, but in the earlysixties, she becomes galvanized
by her policy, which includesnot only Hansberry, but also
James Baldwin and who buy arearrested.
So they're all essentially NinaSimone's peer teachers.
So they're going to organizingmeeting secret, uh, organizing
(22:40):
committees and whatnot.
Um, leading up to the 63 Marchon Washington, chlorine
Hansberry dies at age 34, minein 965.
So in 68, Nina Simone havingprocessed or grief is inspired
(23:01):
by Hansberry's young, gifted,and black, and writes the song
to be a gift in a black, whichbecomes an Anthem for us all.
Um, and so in 2018, when I wasgoing through my, you know,
Odyssey, um, my maturation, Idecided to tag on and queer,
(23:25):
right.
To highlight the intersection ofall of my heroes of BioTrust and
, and James Baldwin and LorraineHansberry ending as a mom,
because that's a use of force aswell, because oftentimes this
information is only shared and,you know, the halls of
(23:47):
universities and colleges,right.
Um, often times they're seeingit through either a queer, a
queer lens or a black lens, butrarely it better both.
And they're all right.
And so I really think it'simportant that we much like, you
(24:08):
know, uh, the New York times isbrilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
Nicole, Hannah Jones shepherdedthe 16, 19 project of slavery
and how it persists today and inimpasse, every facet of society,
American society, as we know it,uh, you know, I think it's time
(24:32):
that we do that for our queer orblack and queer heroes as well.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I could not agree more.
And thank you for just soeloquently, um, talking about
this and, and, and the, youknow, I love to say like six
degrees of separation, howeverything is connected, um, and
has been connected.
You know, we, we can no longer,um, ignore it, you know, it's,
(25:01):
it's, it's part of the fabric ofthe black of black history and
it needs to be highlighted.
Um, you know, we, we, we allknow what's going on, you know,
um, and I also think with allthe civil unrest, um, perhaps
we're perhaps, um, we're at thebrink of, of, of really making
(25:28):
sustainable change.
And, and I say, perhaps not tobe a cynic, um, but to be a
realist because you and I, andso many other black people, we
we've lived this before, youknow, and we know, uh, what the
results have been, um, how thefervor and the anger and the
(25:52):
excitement and passion willdissipate.
Um, so, you know, I'm, I'm, I'mtrying to be hopeful and
encouraged, you know, um, theSupreme court ruling that just,
uh, passed to, you know, upholdthe 1964 civil rights act to
protect gay and transgenderAmericans from workplace
(26:13):
discrimination.
Um, you know, seems like we'reincluding, um, transgender,
LGBTQ, uh, black Americans.
Would you agree with that?
Or do you feel there's still adistinct line of delineation?
(26:37):
Um, and, uh, what can we do as agroup of vocal and
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Powerful people to help change that?
Absolutely.
Why think similarly, you know,the March on Washington in 63
was so important because, butthe number of civilians turned
out, but also the number of oldface names that turned out.
(27:07):
So, you know, in addition to theactual March, there was a
Hollywood around table thatincluded Harry Belafonte, Sidney
bossy age, James Baldwin,Charlton Heston, uh, Marlin
Brando, and Joe Mackowitz.
And it was really important, um,to have white allyship of grade
(27:29):
eight list caliber, um,showcasing solidarity, right?
So there's precedent for the,the allyship that we're seeing
today.
But again, we can't let itdissipate regarding trends,
movement.
I still feel like it's onlyLGBTQ people advocating or queer
(27:54):
and trans people, unfortunately,because like we saw with Ayana,
a Dior as the first wave ofprotests were happening
following the gruesome murder ofGeorge Floyd.
I on a Dior had, I dunno, well,10, 20 guys on camera.
(28:19):
So, and, you know, bar too oftenwhen I see black celebrities on
Instagram live or on a nightlynews program, they're mostly
mentioning the shrink, the mennames who have been murdered by
(28:40):
police.
They're rarely mentioning Ninapop or talking to me date, et
cetera.
And so I think we have a longways to go in terms of
reeducating our own community interms of the LGBTQ experience,
because I think many peoplestill treat it as a choice or a
(29:03):
lifestyle as opposed to it'sjust a state of be right.
And then no, what happens withinthe queer community and the
racism that persists there aswell.
I was heartening to see a coupleof acquaintances gather on fire
Island for a black lives matterdemonstration, but in talking to
(29:28):
them, they were somewhere whereothers were unaware, but happily
enlightened about theexclusivity of black people on
fire Island and how ironic it isto have a black lives matter
demonstration when they'rereally black people included in
(29:49):
the tea dances or just aweekends out.
Right.
So we have a lot of, it's notabout calling people out as much
as it is calling them in, right.
Cause it's a community effort.
And I think we as civilians andcommunity organizers have much
more power than we realize thepower to shape and change
(30:13):
policy.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
So how could someone like me
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Get involved?
I think it's really about justlike we tell our white friends,
acquaintances, colleagues, etcetera, et cetera, to, you know,
have these conversations at thedinner table with their families
.
It's, it's, it's exactly thesame for us.
I can get, as of now making surethat women are not erased from
(30:41):
the black lives matter movement,just the way in which their
names have tried to be erasedfrom the civil rights movement.
Right.
There were so many women, Imean, we know about just one
case, a point, everyone knowswhat was a Park's sure, but like
Melia Jackson's right movement.
(31:02):
Um, so today it really is aboutmaking sure that women and queer
folk are included in the blacklives matter conversation.
And I think that, you know, whenI've spoken to some black and
Brown people, they're saying wedon't have time for that, or
(31:23):
wait to get to the queer issue.
We gotta, we gotta worry aboutthe black issue bursts.
And it's like, well, I'm boththings, the chicken or the egg,
like I'm both all the time,whether I want to be, or, or
not.
Right.
Which is a typical coming of agestory of like, Oh, I wish I were
(31:44):
different when you're 12, 13 or14, you know, you just gotta
embrace it.
And I, black is beautiful.
Queerness is exactly,
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Exactly.
We have to stopcompartmentalizing, um, you
know, racist race, you know, um,uh, injustice is injustice.
It doesn't have various levels,you know, um, we're in this
together.
So I, you know, I stand withyou, I agree, 100% that the
(32:15):
conversations need to be had.
Like we talk about everythingelse.
And even if it's uncomfortable,it doesn't matter.
It still needs to be had.
Um, and I also, you know, have,have counseled a lot of my
brothers and sisters over thepast several weeks that, you
know, we also need to make surethat we're educated, that we're
(32:37):
reading up and, and, orrereading, you know, um, you
have to make sure that ourcommunity knows its history
because we definitely know itwasn't taught in school, you
know?
Um, and not everyone went tocollege and decided to, you
know, take an African Americanstudies course.
(32:58):
And it's, can't take for grantedthat every black person is an
expert on black history.
Um, we have to humble ourselvesand say, you know what, as I'm
recommending these books to mywhite friends or counterparts or
colleagues, let me make sureI've read them, you know, so
(33:20):
that I can speak from a place ofnot just emotion and passion,
but a, but a place of knowledge.
I believe it, the Baldwin whohas this saying, that's like,
you think you're alone in theworld, or you think that your
story is unique and then youread.
And it's really important thatwe understand our history,
(33:43):
right?
Because he does not know hishistory under it, just to say
that I feel inspired by thismoment, but I also know just
from historical record or that,you know, dr.
King was taken out because Ihave a drink and he was taken
(34:05):
out and understand that they toowere a part of this fight.
Well, sad.
This has been such an incredibleconversation.
And I just thank you, Teddy, foryour honesty and your
authenticity and, you know, yourwillingness to educate, um,
(34:30):
it's, I think it's, everyone'sresponsibility to speak up and
speak loud about the blackexperience.
And the black experience can notbe marginalized or
compartmentalized.
We all are in this together andwe all should be supporting each
other.
So before we close, um, I wouldlove to get like, you know, what
(34:56):
are you, what are you readingright now?
Or what, you know, is a book ortwo that you would recommend to
the listeners to read.
But something that I wouldrecommend for readers is this
play by a Mary Boraca callednarrative literary narrative and
mass structure that or dramaticnarrative, I should say that
(35:21):
really allows the reader toimmerse themselves in the story.
Whereas I think sometimes theyfeel like it's too dense.
Um, but it's an interesting twoperson play that
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Takes place.
Uh, you know, in the civilrights era, let's say mid to
late sixties on a subway in NewYork city, in which a white
woman kills an upwardly mobileor striving black man.
Wow.
And so I think it really speaksto this moment that Amy Cooper
of at all, you know, like whatcould happen.
(36:02):
Um, again, there's precedent forall of this and obviously, you
know, white fragility, Robin deAngelo, I would recommend, um,
uh, one of the most profoundbooks that I've read on black
feminism is fig by trustingMacmillan calm.
(36:22):
And, uh, I just think it's soimportant that we engage with
black women thinkers.
She's a brilliant sociologist.
Um, and she also has this verycool podcast called here to slay
with Roxanne engage, uh, whichis, uh, entertaining and
(36:44):
informative.
I also love how to be ananti-racist by Abrams.
I would highly recommend becauseit is about the action of
undoing white supremacy in oureveryday lives and how we hold
each other accountable.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Amazing, incredible, and listeners.
Again, I will list thisrecommended reading list in the
description for this episode.
So Teddy again, thank you somuch for this inspiring
conversation.
You have been an incredibleguest and I look forward to
(37:24):
offline with you more about, um,everything we've talked about
because this I for one havebroadened my understanding and
have learned so much throughthis interaction.
So thank you for being ontoday's show.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
So listeners, this is the end of a episode with Teddy.
Tensen on the intersection ofblackness and queerness.
If you enjoyed the show, Ihighly encourage you to leave a
review and until next time bewell and be safe.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
[inaudible].
[inaudible] [inaudible]
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of know me to ask
podcast.
My name is Amani Duncan, and Iwill be your host on this
journey.
I am very excited about thisepisode, I think is very timely
and really important.
And I'm even more excited aboutour guests today.
(00:46):
Teddy Tensen.
He is currently a contributingreporter at the New York times.
He is also a creative consultantfor the Academy award winning
director.
Steven Sonnenburg previouslyTeddy worked as a fashion
assistant with the latedesigner, Oscar de LA Renta.
(01:07):
Then he went to Bo working withAndre Leon Talley, followed by
contributing roles at AndyWarhols interview.
And hello, mr.
Magazines, select media that youcan find some of Teddy's work is
in the wall street journal wmagazine GQ, New York magazine
(01:29):
essence refinery 29.
Hi, snobbery.
I mean the list just goes on andon and on, and Teddy's a
graduate, um, as Syracuseuniversity.
So without further ado, pleasewelcome to no need to ask
podcasts, Teddy Tennyson.
Hi Teddy.
(01:51):
Well, like I said earlier, I amso excited to have you on my
little podcast.
This is going to be such a greatshow with such a great topic.
And I feel as my duty on thisplatform to keep highlighting
stories, as you guys all know, Ilove to tell stories and
highlights stories of peoplethat I admire and respect.
(02:14):
So I'm, I'm just really excitedto get into this topic with
Teddy, but before we drill down,um, you know, if you go to a
Teddy's website, which is Teddytensen.com, um, it's a beautiful
website.
Everyone.
I highly suggest that youvisited, but there's this
beautiful home by, um, the poetNariah Y heed.
(02:39):
And it goes to say, given toyour uniqueness, the very thing
you've been fighting not to bein your whole life is the very
thing that is your genius.
And so Teddy, I would love tostart out with you, um, telling
us, like, why did you pick thispoem to be kind of the
(03:03):
centerpiece, um, you know, likethe opening statement to your
website?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Well, thank you very much.
Um, I stumbled across a poem.
Uh, I want to say sometime in2018 when I was, uh, building
the site, which came out of anecessity for me to, uh, put
myself out there because I'vebeen working behind the scenes
for over a decade, um, reallypulling groom, um, talent, um,
(03:35):
many of your faves faves, um,across industries.
And so this would be really away of me putting myself out
there for the first time,really, and also, um, really
owning the parts of myself thatI've been, um, a little loath to
(03:56):
fully embrace, including both myblackness and my queerness,
because I was, um, raised to becompetent and yes, I'm black and
I'm proud.
And I came out in my early teensand so that the struggle of it
all was never really an issue.
So it was only in my latetwenties working in the
(04:19):
industries that I work in, wheremy blackness and my queerness
started to become issues, um, inthe workplace in society and
dating and all of these areas oflife.
And so that poem really justspoken to me in a way that, um,
allowed me to really embrace thefullness of who I am.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I love that.
Wow, what a, what a journey.
I'm just like, I have so manyquestions that I will hold just
a bed because I want to dig moreinto your illustrious career.
Um, I am a fashion file.
I love all things fashion.
Um, and I love the written word.
(04:59):
So you're like the perfectcombination of two of my loves
and you've written for so manymagazines and publications that
we all, you know, keep and readon a daily basis.
So I'm just curious, like, howdid you know all of this come
together for you as a career?
(05:19):
I mean, it there's film, there'sfashion, there's journalism.
Um, you know, for me personally,I didn't strive to be in the
music industry.
I was always in my mind destinedto be an attorney.
And so I kind of fell into mycareer in the music industry.
Um, really it's just kind ofspontaneously.
(05:43):
It was just like almosthappenstance.
And it, it was a combination ofbeing at the right place at the
right time.
Um, that led to me actuallygetting my first job in the
industry and the rest ishistory.
So talk to us about, like, howdid, how did all of this come
together for you?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
It really was a divine intervention.
I mean, that's still, that's thebest way to put it.
Uh, I studied, um, a multitudeof things in school.
Um, I've been a lifelong artist.
I was always in acting andsinging and dancing lessons
growing up, um, and painting anddrawing and all that stuff as
(06:23):
well.
And so it wasn't until, um,maybe middle school, what I
really got into fashion.
Uh, and then high school, Iwould design things for friends.
And then in college I started, Iadded design to my studies.
Um, but because I was atSyracuse, um, and studying other
(06:43):
, um, classical art forms, I,the, the fashion program wasn't
as robust as I needed it to bebecause I wasn't at like Parsons
or if it, or something likethat, my teachers really
understood that.
And they really nurtured me andencouraged me, um, to, you know,
(07:07):
internist as quickly aspossible.
And so I, uh, started interning,um, with mr.
Del Renta as my firstinternship, which was, you know,
a point of divine interventionto itself.
And that's credible.
That's where I met, uh, sir,Andre, Leon Talley, my second
week there.
(07:27):
And we bonded because, you know,of course I was the only one.
Um, and I was good and I workedhard and all those things, but,
um, so I need to go liking to meand then that really just
snowballed my career.
So from there, um, it's reallybeen about relationship building
(07:52):
and about, uh, really just, youknow, paying gliding one thing
to the next.
So I've had a, rather anontraditional career path,
partly out of necessity, butalso partly because of my
multidisciplinary background.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
So, you know, talking about fashion and diversity, do
you find that there are morepeople of color in, um, you
know, positions within fashionhouses?
Like, has it, what's thetrajectory been from your point
of view?
Has it gotten better or is itstill a struggle to have
(08:32):
representation, um, in thefashion industry?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
That's a good question.
There is still, um, a lack ofequity across the board.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
[inaudible]
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Breaking the TV
Speaker 2 (08:56):
News mold.
Um, can you talk to us about whythat particular article was one
of your favorites?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
That particular story means a lot to me because it
reminded me of all the women whoshaped, who I've become.
Um, and so for me, it was reallyimportant to showcase, um, as
objectively as possible, ofcourse, but sunny Austin, my
(09:25):
Wiley, and certainly to Maxwellwell, because I, I think they
represent three different typesof black beauty they're lawyers.
And they've also made thesecareer pivots as political
pundits and or analysts, um, andreally just showing the breadth
and the depth and the scope ofwho and what we are as a people
(09:47):
and how many fashions that isand how it's all excellent and
how that manifests through hair.
Um, shortly while I was workingon that story, that's when the
air laws started to change inNew York and California.
I think the protective stylemovement over the last decade or
so is really inspiring just toshow case the fullness of who
(10:11):
and what we are and how we canexpress ourselves through our
exterior and being like Sonnysaid, I mean, and the articles,
you know, people think if you'reglamorous or if you pay
attention to what you wear, howyou, your hair, that you're not
smart, and that's just true andmass, we have to dispel those
(10:33):
myths as well.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
We're going to actually link in the description
for this episode, the, um, usarticle, because I think it's
really important for everyone tojust take a, take a read because
I feel it will resonate withmost of our listeners.
So thank you tidy for sharingthat.
Um, I can only assume youreceived a lot of positive
(10:55):
feedback,
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Something to be said, and there there's sort of a
precedent for this, going backto slavery.
You know, the idea of Sunday'sbest.
We always have to put our bestfoot forward in every aspect of
our lives, just to be seen andto be heard.
So it's about, I like theseshoes or I like that outfit, or
I like this hairdo.
(11:16):
It's about, what's going toallow me to succeed.
What's going to best set me upfor success.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
It's so true.
I remember my, my father wouldleave home every day in a three
piece suit and tie every singleday.
And he worked abroad.
Um, for many years he worked inSaudi Arabia and I would always
ask him, why did he dressed upto go to the airport?
(11:44):
And he said, it was just easierto maneuver and get through
customs and immigrations.
Um, if you had a white colored
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Shirt on and a suit jacket, so it, yeah.
And it's so amazing, the storiesof our youth that our parents
pass on to us.
They may not have, um, profoundimpact at the time that they're
sharing the story.
But as you mature as an adult,it definitely takes on a very
(12:17):
different meaning and has a veryprofound impact in our lives.
Um, I feel like we're wearingour Sunday bass or at least I'm
wearing my Sunday best every daythat I wake up.
So I also want us to be able toshow up to the airport in sweat
(12:37):
and slides.
And that would be okay too,because I think that's literally
, it goes into respectabilitypolitics a bit dangerous still.
You want to be able to do an ador two, you know,
Speaker 1 (13:09):
[inaudible],
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I just want to jump right into our topic because
it's going to be good.
And I feel like I'm also goingto walk away with a tremendous
amount of learning.
So the topic is the intersectionof blackness and queerness.
Um, can you kinda talk usthrough, like, what exactly is
(13:36):
that we're living in it'sAmerican history, um, besides
American history, because, youknow, uh, we are American black
people are American, and ifyou're an immigrant, then there
are some cases where you'reAfrican American, but I really
(13:58):
want to embrace blackness, youknow, um, it's beautiful, black
power, black lives matter, allblack lives matter, et cetera,
et cetera.
But at the end of the day, we'reAmerican.
And I think it's important inthis moment that we stay that
claim because so many people tryto Rob us of that identity.
(14:18):
And when we think about it,whether we're talking slavery or
through the Harlem Renaissance,through the civil rights
movement, and even to Stonewallriots with Marsha P Johnson and
Sylvia Rivera, we've always beenat the intersection of blackness
and queerness.
(14:40):
He saved us whether we'retalking from a point of culture
or point of policy.
So a personal hero of mine ismr.
BioTrust and he is fororganizing the 1963 March on
Washington.
He was a key advisor to dr.
Martin Luther King jr.
And he was pushed into theshadows because he was openly
(15:01):
gay and
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Mmm.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
You know, he was advised that he not be the face
not to muddy the messaging ofdr.
King or the optics of that.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Oh, so quick question on that.
When you say he was advised, areyou referring to people within
the movement,
Speaker 3 (15:28):
People within the movement?
Yes.
Much like we see today with theblack lives matter movement.
Why we have to clarify all blacklives matter, including queer
and trans people.
And even because often times theSandra Blands and the Rihanna
tailors are left out of theconversation right before we get
(15:49):
to the Tony make dates or theMalaysia bookers or, or the Nina
POS of the world.
Um, we're still fighting in truecommunity racism in the form of
colorism and homophobia andtransphobia, queer phobia, and
also misogyny right intoeverything I'm going to say of
(16:13):
the civil rights movement andrumor that there were people
that were, uh, you know,whispering that maybe he and dr.
Keeney were lovers, which isn'ttrue, but the optics of that,
um, really push him outside ofit.
Also coupled with the fact thathe was known to, um, engage in
(16:36):
interracial relationships.
Um, so not only was he outproud, but he was also, um,
invested in interracialrelationships.
And so that did not bode well orcertain leaders within the
movement, not dr.
King himself, but other thefront line leaders.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Wow.
I mean, I was, you know, I'mjust going to put it out there.
I was not aware of backyarduntil you and I talked about it,
um, which speaks volumes becauseI'm an educated black woman, um,
(17:16):
minimizing the voices of, ofincredible thought leaders.
Like Biard, um, simply becauseof their choices, it just, it's
just like racism internally, youknow, bigotry and within the
race and outside of the race.
And, um, it's just, I don'tknow.
(17:37):
I just still, it still hits mehard when I hear stories like
this.
Um, because it was, it was like,he's, he's respected as, you
know, a leader within themovement, but then not respected
as a leader.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah.
I mean, think about, think aboutour language today.
Right?
Most of what is the, uh,American colloquial lexicon?
I mean, they say throwing shadeon the 10 o'clock news across
the country.
I come from Paris is burningculture where we talk about
(18:18):
bears late.
We talk about slang.
You know, many of the words usedby straight white men and women
it's started and originated inqueer black and Brown spaces.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
So, you know, the only thing I can connect that to
his ignorance, like, I don'tthink they even realize where it
comes from.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
No, because it's been so sanitized over time.
Right.
Delineate.
And because we're forced to,because of marginalized people
by and large, uh, much like mycareer trajectory, like we
remarked on before thatinnovation oftentimes comes out
of necessity, right.
One afforded the sameopportunities as our peers or
(19:11):
white peers or whatever it maybe we're forced to innovate.
So by the time, you know, peoplewere saying throwing shade,
that's that's last decade, lastcentury last,
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I mean, even let's just even talk about Madonna,
you know, and the whole voguingVino,
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Absolutely prime example,
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Did we even realize the origins, uh, voguing?
Like I just, you know, it kindamakes me think about
subconscious and even consciousbiases, like, you know, are, do
people, is it just someconscious or is it just okay,
because one of the biggest popstars in the world made it.
(20:02):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I don't know.
I think it's not either, or, butboth as most of, you know, um,
think that, you know, why isn'tthis book, the one that's making
the change.
And I'd say, because they'regoing to hear that message
differently from alleged whitewoman than they will from you or
(20:27):
me from Angela Davis or TonyMoore.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Amazing, amazing.
So I, you know, I want to alsotouch on, you know, going back
in history with Bay yard, um,you know, talk to us about like
the circle that, or how he usedhis influence.
I really want people to walkaway from this episode with a
very clear understanding of theimpact that was made, um, from a
(21:01):
person that was deemed notappropriate,
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I'll be upfront.
So this isn't, this isn'tnothing new.
Let's take it back to the DNA,the first besties, if you will,
uh, or it's not the beginning,but a story of order or it's
LinkedIn use and it Zora NealeHurston, right?
So black cane queer literaryicons.
(21:29):
So lincston writes Harlem is aseries of poems, um, which
includes a dream deferred.
And this is 51 or so LorraineHansberry, another black and
queer literary icon who wassports to I, the exploration of
(21:53):
her own LGBTQ newness, um, isinspired and writes a raisin in
the sun based on a line from oneof Langston's poems.
She has this son of finishedwork called young gifted and
black.
At this time, she befriends NinaSimone, Nina Simone is known as
(22:17):
a musician, but in the earlysixties, she becomes galvanized
by her policy, which includesnot only Hansberry, but also
James Baldwin and who buy arearrested.
So they're all essentially NinaSimone's peer teachers.
So they're going to organizingmeeting secret, uh, organizing
(22:40):
committees and whatnot.
Um, leading up to the 63 Marchon Washington, chlorine
Hansberry dies at age 34, minein 965.
So in 68, Nina Simone havingprocessed or grief is inspired
(23:01):
by Hansberry's young, gifted,and black, and writes the song
to be a gift in a black, whichbecomes an Anthem for us all.
Um, and so in 2018, when I wasgoing through my, you know,
Odyssey, um, my maturation, Idecided to tag on and queer,
(23:25):
right.
To highlight the intersection ofall of my heroes of BioTrust and
, and James Baldwin and LorraineHansberry ending as a mom,
because that's a use of force aswell, because oftentimes this
information is only shared and,you know, the halls of
(23:47):
universities and colleges,right.
Um, often times they're seeingit through either a queer, a
queer lens or a black lens, butrarely it better both.
And they're all right.
And so I really think it'simportant that we much like, you
(24:08):
know, uh, the New York times isbrilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
Nicole, Hannah Jones shepherdedthe 16, 19 project of slavery
and how it persists today and inimpasse, every facet of society,
American society, as we know it,uh, you know, I think it's time
(24:32):
that we do that for our queer orblack and queer heroes as well.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I could not agree more.
And thank you for just soeloquently, um, talking about
this and, and, and the, youknow, I love to say like six
degrees of separation, howeverything is connected, um, and
has been connected.
You know, we, we can no longer,um, ignore it, you know, it's,
(25:01):
it's, it's part of the fabric ofthe black of black history and
it needs to be highlighted.
Um, you know, we, we, we allknow what's going on, you know,
um, and I also think with allthe civil unrest, um, perhaps
we're perhaps, um, we're at thebrink of, of, of really making
(25:28):
sustainable change.
And, and I say, perhaps not tobe a cynic, um, but to be a
realist because you and I, andso many other black people, we
we've lived this before, youknow, and we know, uh, what the
results have been, um, how thefervor and the anger and the
(25:52):
excitement and passion willdissipate.
Um, so, you know, I'm, I'm, I'mtrying to be hopeful and
encouraged, you know, um, theSupreme court ruling that just,
uh, passed to, you know, upholdthe 1964 civil rights act to
protect gay and transgenderAmericans from workplace
(26:13):
discrimination.
Um, you know, seems like we'reincluding, um, transgender,
LGBTQ, uh, black Americans.
Would you agree with that?
Or do you feel there's still adistinct line of delineation?
(26:37):
Um, and, uh, what can we do as agroup of vocal and
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Powerful people to help change that?
Absolutely.
Why think similarly, you know,the March on Washington in 63
was so important because, butthe number of civilians turned
out, but also the number of oldface names that turned out.
(27:07):
So, you know, in addition to theactual March, there was a
Hollywood around table thatincluded Harry Belafonte, Sidney
bossy age, James Baldwin,Charlton Heston, uh, Marlin
Brando, and Joe Mackowitz.
And it was really important, um,to have white allyship of grade
(27:29):
eight list caliber, um,showcasing solidarity, right?
So there's precedent for the,the allyship that we're seeing
today.
But again, we can't let itdissipate regarding trends,
movement.
I still feel like it's onlyLGBTQ people advocating or queer
(27:54):
and trans people, unfortunately,because like we saw with Ayana,
a Dior as the first wave ofprotests were happening
following the gruesome murder ofGeorge Floyd.
I on a Dior had, I dunno, well,10, 20 guys on camera.
(28:19):
So, and, you know, bar too oftenwhen I see black celebrities on
Instagram live or on a nightlynews program, they're mostly
mentioning the shrink, the mennames who have been murdered by
(28:40):
police.
They're rarely mentioning Ninapop or talking to me date, et
cetera.
And so I think we have a longways to go in terms of
reeducating our own community interms of the LGBTQ experience,
because I think many peoplestill treat it as a choice or a
(29:03):
lifestyle as opposed to it'sjust a state of be right.
And then no, what happens withinthe queer community and the
racism that persists there aswell.
I was heartening to see a coupleof acquaintances gather on fire
Island for a black lives matterdemonstration, but in talking to
(29:28):
them, they were somewhere whereothers were unaware, but happily
enlightened about theexclusivity of black people on
fire Island and how ironic it isto have a black lives matter
demonstration when they'rereally black people included in
(29:49):
the tea dances or just aweekends out.
Right.
So we have a lot of, it's notabout calling people out as much
as it is calling them in, right.
Cause it's a community effort.
And I think we as civilians andcommunity organizers have much
more power than we realize thepower to shape and change
(30:13):
policy.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
So how could someone like me
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Get involved?
I think it's really about justlike we tell our white friends,
acquaintances, colleagues, etcetera, et cetera, to, you know,
have these conversations at thedinner table with their families
.
It's, it's, it's exactly thesame for us.
I can get, as of now making surethat women are not erased from
(30:41):
the black lives matter movement,just the way in which their
names have tried to be erasedfrom the civil rights movement.
Right.
There were so many women, Imean, we know about just one
case, a point, everyone knowswhat was a Park's sure, but like
Melia Jackson's right movement.
(31:02):
Um, so today it really is aboutmaking sure that women and queer
folk are included in the blacklives matter conversation.
And I think that, you know, whenI've spoken to some black and
Brown people, they're saying wedon't have time for that, or
(31:23):
wait to get to the queer issue.
We gotta, we gotta worry aboutthe black issue bursts.
And it's like, well, I'm boththings, the chicken or the egg,
like I'm both all the time,whether I want to be, or, or
not.
Right.
Which is a typical coming of agestory of like, Oh, I wish I were
(31:44):
different when you're 12, 13 or14, you know, you just gotta
embrace it.
And I, black is beautiful.
Queerness is exactly,
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Exactly.
We have to stopcompartmentalizing, um, you
know, racist race, you know, um,uh, injustice is injustice.
It doesn't have various levels,you know, um, we're in this
together.
So I, you know, I stand withyou, I agree, 100% that the
(32:15):
conversations need to be had.
Like we talk about everythingelse.
And even if it's uncomfortable,it doesn't matter.
It still needs to be had.
Um, and I also, you know, have,have counseled a lot of my
brothers and sisters over thepast several weeks that, you
know, we also need to make surethat we're educated, that we're
(32:37):
reading up and, and, orrereading, you know, um, you
have to make sure that ourcommunity knows its history
because we definitely know itwasn't taught in school, you
know?
Um, and not everyone went tocollege and decided to, you
know, take an African Americanstudies course.
(32:58):
And it's, can't take for grantedthat every black person is an
expert on black history.
Um, we have to humble ourselvesand say, you know what, as I'm
recommending these books to mywhite friends or counterparts or
colleagues, let me make sureI've read them, you know, so
(33:20):
that I can speak from a place ofnot just emotion and passion,
but a, but a place of knowledge.
I believe it, the Baldwin whohas this saying, that's like,
you think you're alone in theworld, or you think that your
story is unique and then youread.
And it's really important thatwe understand our history,
(33:43):
right?
Because he does not know hishistory under it, just to say
that I feel inspired by thismoment, but I also know just
from historical record or that,you know, dr.
King was taken out because Ihave a drink and he was taken
(34:05):
out and understand that they toowere a part of this fight.
Well, sad.
This has been such an incredibleconversation.
And I just thank you, Teddy, foryour honesty and your
authenticity and, you know, yourwillingness to educate, um,
(34:30):
it's, I think it's, everyone'sresponsibility to speak up and
speak loud about the blackexperience.
And the black experience can notbe marginalized or
compartmentalized.
We all are in this together andwe all should be supporting each
other.
So before we close, um, I wouldlove to get like, you know, what
(34:56):
are you, what are you readingright now?
Or what, you know, is a book ortwo that you would recommend to
the listeners to read.
But something that I wouldrecommend for readers is this
play by a Mary Boraca callednarrative literary narrative and
mass structure that or dramaticnarrative, I should say that
(35:21):
really allows the reader toimmerse themselves in the story.
Whereas I think sometimes theyfeel like it's too dense.
Um, but it's an interesting twoperson play that
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Takes place.
Uh, you know, in the civilrights era, let's say mid to
late sixties on a subway in NewYork city, in which a white
woman kills an upwardly mobileor striving black man.
Wow.
And so I think it really speaksto this moment that Amy Cooper
of at all, you know, like whatcould happen.
(36:02):
Um, again, there's precedent forall of this and obviously, you
know, white fragility, Robin deAngelo, I would recommend, um,
uh, one of the most profoundbooks that I've read on black
feminism is fig by trustingMacmillan calm.
(36:22):
And, uh, I just think it's soimportant that we engage with
black women thinkers.
She's a brilliant sociologist.
Um, and she also has this verycool podcast called here to slay
with Roxanne engage, uh, whichis, uh, entertaining and
(36:44):
informative.
I also love how to be ananti-racist by Abrams.
I would highly recommend becauseit is about the action of
undoing white supremacy in oureveryday lives and how we hold
each other accountable.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Amazing, incredible, and listeners.
Again, I will list thisrecommended reading list in the
description for this episode.
So Teddy again, thank you somuch for this inspiring
conversation.
You have been an incredibleguest and I look forward to
(37:24):
offline with you more about, um,everything we've talked about
because this I for one havebroadened my understanding and
have learned so much throughthis interaction.
So thank you for being ontoday's show.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
So listeners, this is the end of a episode with Teddy.
Tensen on the intersection ofblackness and queerness.
If you enjoyed the show, Ihighly encourage you to leave a
review and until next time bewell and be safe.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
[inaudible].
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