Welcome to episode 3 of No Need to Ask Podcast. My name is Amani Duncan and I am your host on this journey.
On today’s show, I have the pleasure of speaking with one of my oldest friends, Jaha Johnson. Jaha is known as one of the premiere A&R decutibes in the music business.
Not only did he spearhead Def Soul, the R&B imprint under the premiere hip hop label Def Jam Records but went on to hold senior positions at Interscope Records and currently resides as the Head of A&R for La Reid’s imprint HitCo Music.
Additionally Jaha Johnson has managed award winner multi-platinum artists talent Usher, Common and Mary J. Blige.
You can read some of the article’s Jaha has written here:https://medium.com/@jaha1
Get ready for a bird’s eye view into the exciting life of a record’s man.
Please subscribe and write a review here: https://Apple.co/3drgU57
visit www.noneedtoaskpod.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
[inaudible]
Speaker 2 (00:16):
welcome to another episode of no need to ask
podcast.
I am your host, Amani Duncan,and the topic of this episode is
the journey of a records, man.
Hi, jaw.
Welcome to no need to askpodcast.
Thanks for having me.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I'm doing good.
I have no complaints, but I knowwe're so young, but yeah, so,
Speaker 2 (00:43):
but seriously, like over 20 years, I think, um, wow.
We met, uh, when I was at Defjam.
And you were, uh, what were youdoing?
You joined Island Def jam,right?
Correct.
Okay.
And that was probably the latenineties
Speaker 3 (01:01):
that was in 1999.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Oh, so exact.
Wow.
Um, okay.
So, you know, tell us what wereyou doing?
Um, back then when we were atIsland Def jam, I think you were
always on the creator side, butwhy don't you walk the listeners
through like your role backthen?
And we know, why did you want togo into the creator side of the
record business?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I mean, to, to kind of take it back to even how we
even got to Def jam.
Um, I'm originally from New Yorkborn and raised in Brooklyn.
And I live aside for me to go tocollege.
I specifically wanted to go toHBCU.
I'm just inspired to just bearound more people that look
(01:45):
like me.
I mean, yes, both growing up inNew York was diverse and, and of
course I had friends from allwalks of life, but there was
something about the blackcollege experience that I wanted
to have.
And at that time, Atlanta wasreally bubbling and I went to
Clark Atlanta university, acouple of friends of ours, who I
decide to go down there.
And I started interning atLaFace records, which is where
(02:08):
it kind of all started for me.
You know, around that time I wasjust hustling and turning it in
the face.
I turned to Dallas, Austin, arowdy started off promoting
parties and just my friends andI, there was a, there was a
whole contingent of us back then, uh, Chaka, Zulu, Jay Irving,
um, uh, Coltrane, secure Stuart.
(02:30):
There were a lot of us that workI had just knew to come to
Atlanta and we're just trying tofigure it out.
And Atlanta was a great meltingpot city cause it kind of sat in
the middle, uh, which, whichmakes it unique.
And it was only one of the onlycolleges where four black
universities were on the samecampus, Morehouse Spelman,
Morris Brown, and Clark.
(02:50):
And I started originally on thepromotion side.
All my internships were learninghow to promote and promoting
parties in the Prilosecdepartment at record labels for
Shante dies and so on and soforth.
And I'll never forget one day.
Um, I w I was also doing aninternship for these radio pools
for RCA.
I did like some of the recordsthat I was that I have to
(03:11):
promote that I had to literallycall radio stations to promote.
Right.
And, uh, I remember I came backto LaFace and I, young intern
didn't even know Eliquis, youknow, on a personal basis.
And I stopped him in the halland I said, what do you do if
you don't like the records thatyou have to promote?
And he said, he said, there areonly two sides of the business
(03:33):
that really matter.
There's the people who make thepizza, which is the creators and
the ANRs and the people whodeliver the pizza, which are the
promotion people in themarketing people.
And he said, if you don't likewhat you have to sell, then you
should go learn how to make it.
And that was like, that was it.
That was like that one momentof, you know, he probably
(03:53):
doesn't even remember theconversation.
It kind of crystallizedeverything for me.
And I just dug into trying tofind out what it meant to be an
ANR and working with producersand developing talent.
And shortly thereafter, I joinedup with, um, some friends called
noontime that was a collectionof, um, Ryan Glover, Chris
(04:14):
Hicks, Terry Walls, Henry Lee,Shakira Stuart, or myself, some
would come from Howard.
Some from Oakland, Shakira wasMorehouse.
I was at Clark and we startedthis production company,
managing producers anddeveloping artists.
And that quickly led to usworking, you know, with artists
on bad boy and RCA and questsrecords.
(04:36):
And we ended up working on, onthe soundtrack for Def jam at
the time that team Davis wasworking on, um, was, it was
before the have, Oh, how to be aplayer.
Oh yeah.
Shout out to Tina Davis.
Right.
And that's, that's where the Defjam relationship started.
Um, and from there just learningmore about being an, our hair
(04:57):
was this black woman who waslike wanting this aid, our
department at this historic hiphop record label.
And it was just eyeopening.
So, you know, from that time atthe face to now working with
producers and seeing policy, andthen now meaning to you today,
the subtly or, and Kevin Lilesand the whole crew over there,
it just, just kept sparking thefire me more and more to want to
(05:19):
be on the record side.
Um, and after some time justbuilding relationships and
hustling Lee or corn offered mea job to come on board and
specifically work on the RNBside of Def jam.
Cause, uh, as you know, afterthe Island Def jam merger, you
guys inherited, um, some R and Bartists.
We did one being Cisco and drewHill.
(05:41):
And at that time, most of theANRs, they did mostly hip hop.
So it was myself and Jojo.
Brim were the only two guysthere that specifically did R
and B.
So that kind of became my niche.
I'm working with Cisco and youheal Kelly Price one 12.
So I just kind of became knownas the RMB guy at Def jam.
(06:03):
We started a division called Defsoul, a law by Kevin House.
Ken allows and music, soul childwas signed that.
So, and, um, that's, that'swhere it all began for me.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I mean, that's a big move and you just kind of just
glossed over it.
You know, my being of my days ofwhen I just would always bother
Kevin Liles, like I was, I wasfearless back then.
And, and I think a lot of peopletoday, especially with a lot of
young people today, they, youknow, when you tell them these
stories, they can't evenimagine, you know, just
(06:38):
approaching these, these hugeTitans of the industry.
Um, so what, like what made youfeel so confident to just walk
up to LA Reed as an intern andhave that conversation with him
that really was pivotal, pivotalin your career?
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know, andthat's an important point you
make.
And I think whether it was then,you know, I can give examples
of, of today, you know, they're,they're a young creators, like a
young man named justice.
Who's part of a loveRenaissance.
And you know, his spirit remindsme of that.
It's like, you know how heapproaches executives?
Like, you know, I, I cold calledbig John back, you know, back
(07:17):
then and angelic miles when shewas a publisher or walking up on
New York Coleman or RussellSimmons, like that's what we had
to do.
And I think, you know, if youwant to be great, you can't be
scared to engage.
Right.
You might get some doorsslammed, you might get some
shrugged offs and, you know,people not willing to give you
the time.
But, you know, I find that, youknow, the people that you're
(07:39):
approaching, that's usually howwe got how we got them there.
Right.
Somebody stopping to take thetime to give them information.
You know, I always say thatinformation is free.
What you do with it is on you,you know, some, you know, LA
could have given me that samegame and it could've went
completely over my head and Icould have, you know, just left
the music business.
But for me it, it sparkedsomething in me.
(07:59):
And I feel like everyinteraction, every conversation,
whether, you know, no matterwhether someone thinks it's big
or small, um, when I'm talkingto an intern, a random person in
the store, um, a big executiveand artist, I don't take any
interaction or conversation forgranted because that's, that's
where the inspiration comesfrom.
It comes from differentperspectives and, and just kind
(08:23):
of, you never know whatconversation is going to inspire
you or trigger something insideyou to, to write something, to
create something, to have a newidea, you know, that's, that's
the beauty of, to me, the world,right.
You know, it's funny kind of tokind of bring things full
circle, not to really go offsubject.
But when we look at the timesroom with COVID, I think one of
(08:44):
the biggest things we've missedis that human interaction,
right?
Like I think that, I think theworld has learned how to adjust
with platforms like zoom andjust, and, and, um, and
FaceTime.
But there's something about thegenuineness of just having a
casual conversation ordeliberate conversation that
sparks an idea and, you know,specifically entertainment
(09:07):
specifically in music, it's allabout inspiration.
It's all about conversation.
That's where the greatest songscome from.
That's where the greatest ideascome from.
I mean, how many times have youcome up with a great award show
performance or video conceptjust based on conversation with,
with the talent, with otherexecutives with repairs, like
that's, that's what we live offof.
(09:28):
That's the lifeblood of, of, of,uh, of our businesses is, is, is
that type of engagement
Speaker 2 (09:35):
agreed, agreed.
Were so instrumental in bringingR and B for the label to the
forefront.
And then I remember, Oh God,maybe a few years later after we
met, you had an opportunity togo to London.
Can you tell us more about that?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So about a year and a half, then I think it was 2001.
Um, at that time, obviously DefJim's super power was, was hip
hop.
And, um, but there were otherlabels, bigger, you know,
Columbia would just had thesehuge pop stars or in a school
bed, huge rock stars.
Um, and they had dr.
Dre, um, there were other labelsthat were more global and
(10:16):
Aristotle was more global at thetime.
And Def jam being kind of likethis little engine didn't have
that same reach and Lee, or hadjust as global vision for hip
hop and this global vision forthe label as a whole.
And, you know, as we all knowhim, not scared to take on any
new tasks, he's like, I need ourmusic in all those markets.
(10:39):
I need artists to want to goover there.
And back then a lot of domestichip hop artists didn't want to
travel.
They felt like it was a wholeother world.
Like I'm not going to London.
What do they eat over there?
Like they food, you know, whatdo they speak over there?
They speak English.
Right?
Um, so there, there were, therewere a lot of unknowns about the
(11:00):
world back then that don'treally exist today.
And he created this, thiscommittee and we took a trip.
We went to Japan, we went toGermany and went to London and
he wants to meet with ourpartners in universal, in those
prospective markets about how dowe get Def jam thriving and
kinda more engaged in just like,you know, you're a subsidiary
(11:21):
who picks up our record andpromotes one or two records here
and there.
He wanted a real presence inthose markets and he felt for
London, he wanted one of usthere.
He wanted somebody who lived it,who breathed it, who understood,
um, the, kind of the ethos ofthe Def jam culture to go there
and set up shops.
So he tapped me to move toLondon with, uh, you know, this
(11:45):
young kid, 20 something yearsold to build Def jam in London,
um, with a skeleton staffinside, we were housed inside of
mercury, which was also underthe universal, um, umbrella at
the time.
So there were some services thatcame with that no different than
a joint venture.
Right.
And, uh, I moved over there.
(12:06):
We, um, I hired a young mannamed SIM, Texas went on to
become one of the premier DJs inLondon as my, um, urban promo
guy.
Uh, there was a young lady, um,Merriam who did marketing.
And then, you know, I, Ifunctioned as kind of the label
head and the ANR source.
So we wore, you know, typical toour deaf GMB, New York, you wear
(12:29):
multiple hats.
You know, I'd be up in the daytaking meetings, going to MTV,
going to radio, and then I'd beout looking for this.
And, um, and that my, my rolewas two things primarily was to,
to sign domestic talent inLondon and to also bring over
our us talent and make sure thatthey felt well taken care of it
(12:51):
understood the importance ofpromoting that market back then,
you know, like I said, Columbiawas sending more, I carry
Destiny's child.
I mean, those artists were thereweekly working, no different
than a problem with trip toNorth Carolina.
And a lot of other artists,specifically black artists were
not coming over there.
So I was responsible forbringing the Jay Z over,
bringing jar rule over.
(13:12):
At that time we had Christinaand Leon, um, DMX.
I don't think no DMX income withjar rule jar will.
And Jay were two, like we're bigones because they were somewhat
resistant, but they alsounderstood the importance of it.
So it felt good for them whenthey landed to have a familiar
face that they knew that, youknow, kind of knew nuances how
(13:32):
they like to move, what worked,what didn't work.
And, and it was an educationprocess on both sides of the
pond, right?
It's an education process forour artists, just learning that
there is a bigger world outthere, right?
And that this world buys recordsand they are fans and you have
to touch them the same way youtouch, you know, the States.
And it was an education processfor the UK marketplace.
(13:53):
Just understanding that like,there are some cultural nuances
and you have to be mindful ofit.
Right.
You know, sometimes, you know,reporters and other countries
can be very aggressive at thattime, you know, or, you know,
the taste and tone of certaininterviews, right.
Just like just working throughthose things to really kind of
bridge the gap.
So that was, so that was myfunction.
(14:14):
Um, that was a big part of myfunction was kind of opening
that up.
And at that time, you know,there were no other Americans
from, um, living in the UK,working in the music space.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Wow.
So you were really, you werebreaking down barriers and you
were opening doors for others.
I mean, when you think about it,Jay probably had never, right.
He's never, he never went toEurope before that.
So you really, yeah.
You really opened the gate forhim and so many others to
broaden their reach.
And I mean, he's over there allthe time and it never stopped.
(14:45):
So how long were you, were youworking over in the UK?
I was for two years.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
And, and listen, like, you know, like anything,
especially when, when you're inthe beginning of it, it had its
frustrations, right?
Like there was, there was somuch, I appreciated about the UK
marketplace.
I'm I'm to this day.
I'm still glad I did it becauseit gave me, um, a lot of
knowledge and information and,and I've always, I've always
looked at the world as kind of,you know, my playground.
(15:15):
Right.
I don't, I don't, I don't everwant to be limited in a box and
only know one thing I alwayssay, don't, don't judge
something.
You haven't tried.
A lot of people say, Oh, Oh, Ihate this country.
Have you been there?
No.
Okay.
So how do you hate it?
Right.
So I've always been mindful ofbefore I pass judgment on
something to at least try it.
And there's an amazing, um,culture in the UK.
(15:39):
I mean, amazing talent, someamazing songwriters and major
producers.
Um, that amazing executives.
I mean, when I was there, youknow, darkest was still in the
early days of the career, but,you know, I, I, I regard him as
one of the best executives outthere, period.
He has some of the best taste.
Um, and it's, it's not just inone genre, you know, at that
(16:00):
time, leucine Rangers winningthe publishing company was just
moving over to take overuniversal UK completely.
Alright.
So there've been some amazingthings that come out of the UK
and their appreciation for solomusic and urban music and the
understanding of art and cultureis amazing.
But on the other side, therewere things I didn't like, you
know, there was just somewhat,uh, uh, a lack of respect for
(16:25):
black executives and black musicas you moved up the chain.
Cause it just, you know, thiswas a country that was built on
pop music was built on theBeatles, right.
It was that, you know, at thattime, it wasn't what it is today
at all.
So, you know, here's this young,black American coming over here
telling them how to, how theyshould be in the music business.
(16:49):
And, you know, that was met withsome resistance.
Um, so there were frustrationsthere, but right.
Like anything there'll befrustration is it's nothing that
, um, if I had to do it all overagain, I would do it again.
Great.
Cause I think it was important.
I think that it opened up a lotof conversation.
I mean, there's so many peersand friends I have today that
started then, you know, if itwasn't for my time there, I
(17:10):
wouldn't have relationship withTim blacksmith or so many
executives and artists andwriters and producers that, you
know, as I was coming up, theywere coming up then also.
So,
Speaker 2 (17:20):
so a little bit, like, are you talking about the
traditional label structure,there was resistance with maybe
an American coming in and givinghis or her purview on how to
market and promote and developartists?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, I think specifically on the label side,
of course there were someexecutives, you know, I credit
Lucien with understanding theimportance of, you know,
American, black culture music.
I credit, you know, there was,there was, there were a
executives, you know, that I metthere from other labels that
definitely understood it.
(17:54):
I think overall it was new.
It was just new and they didn't,they didn't get some of the
tastes and tone, you know, forexample, I remember, you know,
why does JZ have to stay at thishotel?
Or why, you know, why do we haveto spend this much on dinner?
Right.
It was a very differentconservative approach, but they
(18:15):
didn't understand this part ofthe culture.
As you know, it's not just, youknow, these things are authentic
to the artists, right?
That's it, Jay's you spendinghis own money.
He's going to stay at the hotel.
So if you want him to come overhere to promote, to sell
records, which ultimately helpsyour bottom line, then you've
got to appreciate, this is howthat artist moves.
(18:36):
Right.
So it was like conversationslike that, that I had to have
that weren't even a conversationin the state.
It wasn't even like it was,Kevin was like, go get Jay Z,
two cases of Chris' style.
Why, why isn't it done already?
Why isn't it done already?
So when I say with distance, Imean, just like having to
(18:58):
explain why these nuances areimportant that today, you know,
they get right back then was, itwas, this is ridiculous.
This is too much money.
Why does this cost this?
And why do we have to spend thison that?
And, and it was just like,
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I remember those conversations back in the
States, we would hear aboutthem.
And we're like, what are thesepeople talking about?
Like, this is the way it gets me.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
And this is how this, how it gets done.
And we came from, we came fromto get it done label,
Speaker 2 (19:30):
absolutely.
By any means necessary.
You need to get it done.
Well, it sounds exciting.
I love London.
I've spent a lot of time thereand I agree there's, there's so
much talent that continues toemerge from, from the UK.
Tinie, Tempah like the list justgoes on and on and it's just,
I'm so glad that you had thatopportunity to spend that time
there.
(19:51):
So let's fast forward to today.
Um, you're currently the head ofANR at Hidcote records.
Um, let's, let's talk a bitabout that.
I'm as you know, personallyobsessed with one of your
artists st.
John, he is just incredible.
Um, so talk to us about hit colike how did that even come
about?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Well, first, thank you for all your support, you
know, in your, in your MTV life,you were definitely at the head
of the table, um, you know,fighting for an artist, you
know, again, you know, a lot oftimes people don't understand.
Right.
And I'm pretty sure that there'sprobably executives there now
looking like looking back, like,yeah, we weren't, we were on it.
Like everyone was on it.
(20:36):
Now that is number one.
But, um, yeah, it's funny that,you know, my life with hit co is
kind of brings me full circleback to working with Ellie Reed.
And it was at a point when I,after my last label experience
said, I didn't want to do labelsanymore.
You know, I had a great one atDef GMR was called at those my
(20:57):
college years.
Um, and then went on toInterscope Geffen for four
years.
And it was amazing.
It was, it was, it wasn't thesame family vibe, but, you know,
I had a great boss in Jeff Crossthat I got to work with people
like Paul, Anthony and Jimmybeen and work with amazing
talent like Mary and common inFlorida the most.
But, you know, the, I feel liketowards the end of bed runners,
(21:20):
when there was a shift in thelabel, the kind of label energy,
whereas artists were becomingmore independent and labels
were, were hiring what I callless creative.
Right.
It was more just operators.
And you, you saw the rise of,of, of artists that just kind of
like insulated themselves withtheir own team, their own video
people don't and our people likethe managers were just way more
(21:42):
on it.
And it's kind of drew me intomanagement.
You know, I looked at our peerslike G Robeson, who was in, was
a, was a label as like a and RRockefeller.
And, and you, you, you, you takeall that knowledge.
And he said, well, every artisthas their own record label.
I can do it.
And you know, I, after, youknow, several years managing,
(22:04):
you know, our shirt and Mary incommon and Brandy and tank and
dream, you know, you, you learnhow to do everything, you know,
as, as you know, when you, whenyou work at a record label, it
could be the greatest recordlabel in the world.
It's still a job, right.
Still, it's still, there's stillan end of the day.
There still is no leaving.
So one artist, you know, you're,you're, you're leading.
(22:25):
This is to the label, but whenyou're a manager, it's 24 seven,
it's no matter what it is frompersonal and professional.
And I actually really enjoyedthat because it's sharpened me
up.
It gave me way more skill setsin my tool chest that I've never
had.
Right.
Like my understanding of touringand film and TV and publicity,
and just like, um, branding.
(22:46):
So it well-rounded me.
Um, and I think it prepared mefor him today with his coat,
because this is, this is thefirst time since LA had LaFace
records, that he has a startupand in today's world, a startup
has to operate more like amanagement company.
Like you have to better roll upyour sleeves and do everything.
You know, we didn't, we're not,we didn't start, you know, under
(23:06):
some major we started as anindependent with, you know, a 30
person staff.
And when we first started was meLA our CFO, his partner,
Charles, it was four or five ofus.
And we just, you know, we were,we signed st.
John before we even had ouroffice.
Wow.
We were still working from, youknow, studios and in hotel
lobbies as offices, veryreminiscent of early Def jam
(23:29):
days.
Exactly.
So it's, it's been great becauseI feel like had I not had all
those years and experiences as amanager, I would not be prepared
to do what I'm doing now.
And I love it.
Um, I think it's, I think it'sgreat.
I think it's the future.
I think that, and you know, ina, in a funny turn of events, I
think that record labels haveagain, become more important
than they've been in a longtime, because they've been
(23:52):
forced to really step up, youknow, because you're now in
competition with the artists,you have to prove to the artists
that you can bring value totheir careers because artists
don't need you.
And the artists now can make themusic go straight to Spotify, go
straight to Apple, go straightto YouTube and go straight to
MTV, straight to, to Jimmy foundlike an artist is not have to be
(24:12):
represented by a record label tohave some of the same, um,
opportunities that they're theircounterparts do that aside.
So awareness in the youngerartists.
Absolutely they're there, theyare more in tuned than ever
before they, and, you know,thanks to the internet.
They are just way there.
(24:34):
They're so informed.
They're they're glare.
They, you know, they can look atthese numbers every day.
They can go to Spotify and seewhich artists are moving, seem
to collaboration moving.
I mean, and there's so much dataavailable, you know, w you know,
what are the artists top fivemarkets, that's public
information on Spotify, right?
So, um, it, artists have, havehad more access to information.
(24:55):
It's cheaper to do everything.
It's cheaper to make videoscheaper, to make songs.
So an artist doesn't have tohave this huge recording budget,
or, you know, they don't have tohave these shooting budgets that
we got accustomed to, to be acontender in the game.
Um, so I think there's artists,there's so much power in our
artist's hands now, more thanever.
And, you know, as we learn from,you know, one of the, one of the
(25:17):
most valuable things Laura Leeor ever told me was your power
comes from the artists, right?
Like, it's your ability to beassociated and move the talent
because our business is based onthem.
No, we don't sing or dance.
Right.
So you can move the talent, thenwhat's your, what is your true
value?
Right.
And, um, you know, that's evenmore relevant today than ever
(25:41):
before, because what's your truevalue.
If, if an artists like Drake cando everything himself, then if
you're on his team, you have tobring some real value because
he's already shown you.
I got this, I know what I'mdoing.
Right.
You know what I'm saying?
So, um, yeah, as, as a, as abrought me to hit go, it really
forced me to, you know, what'smy value.
(26:04):
How does this company matter?
Right?
Yes.
LA is one of the greatestrecommend ever, you know, and
how do we support that?
Once we sign the artists, whenwe make the records, you know,
how do I use relationships likeyours and call MTV?
You know, that was, that that'sproviding value, right?
The artists didn't have arelationship with the, at the,
at the network, or how do I putvalue?
You know, any, once again, backto my manager days, it's like,
(26:27):
okay, I can pick up and callJesse Collins or, or Julie from
Fallon, or, you know, when SaintJohn wanted to be front row at
Kirby's Piramal show, he calledme.
Right.
I was able to make that phonecall to Kirby directly make the
introduction.
Like you have to be able toprovide value because if not,
the artist is going to figureout on their own, and then they
(26:48):
don't need you.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Exactly.
Exactly.
So other than st.
John, my all time, favoriteartists, what are you really
excited about coming out of[inaudible]?
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Oh, so, so much.
I mean, I feel like, you know,now that we've got our first two
years behind us, and we're notthird years, you know, like,
like any startup we've, we'vemade our mistakes, we've kind of
reviewed the review, the gametape, and, and we're, we're so
much better now.
I mean, we're, we're reallyseeing yellow BZ starting to
blossom.
Uh, one of, one of our earlysignings out of Dallas, um, we
(27:20):
have a young lady namedbureaucratic R and B singer out
of Chicago.
That's amazing.
That's going to shock everybody.
Um, we've got this new pop girl,Chelsea Collins.
That's amazing.
Also, um, we have this amazingsinger songwriter, the Lacey, I
mean, there's just so much that,you know, so much that that's
kind of moving into its secondphase.
(27:41):
Some things starting in theirfirst phase, you know, um, that
we're really excited about.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
So, you know, recently, I mean, you get the
question.
It probably as much as I get thequestion, but recently this
young lady called me and shewanted some advice.
And the advice obviously was howto get into the music business.
And when I asked her, well, whydo you want to go into the music
business?
She went on and on about howmuch she loves music and how she
(28:07):
loves to attend shows.
And I, you know, I had to kindof gently tell her those really
aren't reasons to go into themusic business.
We all like to go to shows andwe all like, uh, you know,
music.
So what advice as a records,man, who's been, you know, who's
had a very distinguished and,and interesting career journey.
(28:30):
What's the one piece of adviceyou would give to someone who
wants to work in the musicindustry.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
You know, that's a great question.
And I'm going to try my best tosum it up in one answer.
I think it's start with, what doyou love?
And then why do you love it?
Right.
Um, and that could sound vague,but it's, it's really not.
If you think about it, right?
If, if you say you love themusic business, well, what do
you love?
Do you love the visual?
(29:01):
Do you love videos, right.
If you love videos and studyvideos, right?
Like, look at them.
What do you love about the waythey're shot through with the
storytelling?
Do you love the people that putthat together?
Um, do you feel like you're moreof a creator or an executer?
You know, it starts with reallyhaving honest looks in the
mirror and saying, okay, what amI great at?
Or what do I think I have thepotential to be great at?
(29:23):
And how does, how, how does thatapply to my love of whatever
piece of the business that I'mwant to get into?
And you don't have to know thatanswer out the gate, right?
You, it, you know, you start asan intern.
I started as a promo internbefore I figured out I love the
ANR.
You can bounce around that.
There's nothing wrong with thatis you can, you can try a lot of
(29:45):
different departments and see,you know, what, you may not know
anything about you may in thebluffing, right.
But, but it's, it has to startwith the pure love.
I knew I loved music and what Ialways loved or what it would,
it goes back to me is, you know,eighth grade I'm on a rooftop in
Brooklyn and this girl plays isgoing through our mom's record
(30:09):
collection and she plays DonnyHathaway assault for you.
And I remember in that moment,how that song made me feel,
right.
It was just like, it was afeeling.
And I said, at that moment, Iwant to be responsible for
giving people that feeling.
So how do I do that?
Right.
I remember the first time Iheard a song I was involved with
on the radio and how it felt andhow the people around me
(30:29):
reacted.
Right.
So, so it has to start withsomething pure.
Like what's the feeling you wantto give people, and then what's
your contribution to that,right?
It doesn't, you know, for me, itwas, it became an art.
It became, it became the balancebetween creative and an
execution.
Like, okay, you identify thetalent.
(30:50):
What should, what's your pointof view?
And what's your objectivity, youknow, are you finding the right
producers, the songwriters?
Is it your conversation thatsparks a song that they saying,
you know, and how do you, how doyou evolve on that?
So my answer is, start with whatyou love, and then start at the
ground level, just intern, justpay attention, look at
everything, turn over every rockand find out what you like and
(31:11):
what you don't like.
And it will reveal itself as youdo it.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I agree.
As you know, I started as anintern working under Tina Davis
and I did a and R admin and thenwent on to do promotions and
then video promotions, and thenfound what I really love, which
was marketing.
So, you know, we were, we werelucky.
We were able to work in almostevery department that we wanted
to work in a, at a record labelto really fine tune what our
(31:39):
passion points were.
And so, you know, I just don'tknow to in today's environment,
if interns or people that arejust starting out in their
careers have that flexibility,
Speaker 3 (31:50):
it still exists.
It's it?
Listen, I think, um, some of therules have changed and the
requirements for being an internand so on and so forth, but a
true house.
So figures it out.
Right.
I still, I still have interns.
There are still people that, youknow, you see intern at a
management company.
I mean, I always credit, youknow, our brothers, Jeff Dixon
and Shaka, Zulu, listen,absolutely TP has fostered more
(32:13):
executive talent and just out oftheir little office in Atlanta,
then a lot of people.
Right, right.
Love Renaissance, Amber Grimes.
So many people that just camefrom there being around.
Um, we, we all have stories likethat there in terms of I've had,
or people that worked for methat, you know, when Eve Pierre
was an intern at Rockefeller andthey came to work with me in the
(32:36):
management side.
And I, I forced her into theagency side and said, you gotta
go to ICM.
I don't know.
I don't know what that is.
I don't know.
I don't, well, you're going totry it and now she loves it.
Right.
So it's, it's, it's if you wantit, the opportunities are there.
And that goes back to thathustler mentality, right.
That, that never changed.
That never goes away.
I see it today, as clear as Idid when I started the main
(32:59):
thing.
So let's segue out of, uh, therecord man story,
Speaker 2 (33:04):
you know, I was pleasantly pleased when I came
across an article that youwrote, which is up on medium.
And I will send that link out toeveryone which will be in the
podcast and it was entitled whyI run.
And it's, it was a letter toyour son.
So you, you have a teenage son,um, you know, it's needless to
(33:25):
say my heart is, is weary.
Um, I think we are all a bitweary, but energized about the
injustices that are, you know,at the forefront at this moment.
I mean, we injustices againstAfrican Americans or black
people.
It has been ongoing forunfortunately decades, but, um,
(33:48):
right now we're, we're in themiddle of a lot of unrest.
Um, whether it's from COVID to,um, George Floyd and the list
goes on and on.
And so I remember, um, walkingin my neighborhood, maybe a
couple of days after GeorgeFloyd was, was murdered.
And I came across a youngAfrican American boy on a bike
(34:13):
and we spoke to each other and Isaid to him, maybe a little too
passionately, be careful outhere.
And I started to cry.
I mean, I felt it's so, so deepin my heart.
Um, so as a conscious andrighteous father, like how are
(34:34):
you preparing your son to dealwith the world that we live in
today and how do you keep himencouraged to be a part of the
change that we seek?
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah, listen, it's, it's, it's, um, you know, as,
you know, being a parent, youknow, every day is, is a new
test is a new day.
Um, I think, you know, for me,the, the motivation behind that
writing, you know, it's beenabout maybe five, six years now.
(35:10):
Um, I had a really bad surfingaccident.
Um, ironically, um, after I justdid a cross country father, son
trip with my son, um, that, uh,that was, you know, one of those
eyeopening moments.
And, uh, I'll never forget that,um, after my surgery against
(35:30):
doctor's orders, of course,cause I'm hard headed.
Um, I'm on a flight with commonto Tokyo for some shows and I'm
still in a lot of pain.
I may be days out of surgery andcommon.
Someone had referred to him atie and I see coaches between
the world and me at that time.
And he kind of was tellingeverybody on the team about it.
And I'll never forget that planeride from LA to Tokyo.
(35:52):
I read the whole book and then,um, it was basically letters to
his son and it kind of spoke tospoke to the times we're living
in right now, which is nothingnew that, you know, obviously
we've been dealing with this for400 years, plus indeed.
And, uh, when I landed, youknow, between reading that book
and the thought that, you know,my accident could have, you
(36:13):
know, see me no longer here.
I said, I need to be able towrite to my son because I may
not always be around to give himsome of the games, some of the
lessons, some information justabout being a man about, about
love, about relationships, aboutbeing black.
Um, and you know, I thoughtabout, you know, my father
wasn't there and there, he, he,there was no one there to tell
(36:35):
me those stories and while I amin his life, you know, I have to
make sure I'm giving him thestories.
And I, you know, we talk andobviously teenage boys and, you
know, black men, we don't, wesometimes we don't communicate
the best, you know, father, sonconversation that aren't, you
know, always as fluid as theyshould be.
But, you know, once you write itdown, it's always there.
(36:58):
And, um, so I started writingthen, and then I kind of, I
would come in and out of it, Ishared, some of them are some
reminders from friends.
Like you should write a book and, um, you know, fast forward I
was, I was inspired againrecently after the passing of,
um, our friend Andrew around tostart writing again.
Cause I just said, you know,that's part of my purpose,
(37:21):
right?
Like we all have a role to play.
We all have a purpose of PEplaying change and you know,
like any other culture,storytelling is our currency
that you pass forward.
Right.
It's like, you know, the Bibleis this book that we all
reference.
We weren't here to write it.
Right.
(37:41):
Like, but we're all, we're allhere to take inspiration from
it.
While here it gives us somethingto model our lives after.
And that's, to me what writingis, it's like, it gives people
kind of roadmap.
It gives people inspirationinformation.
Um, so, um, after I wrote, youknow, kind of this letter to
Andrew around just with theimportance of that he had in my
life, um, I was then inspired bythe George, George Florida and
(38:06):
where we are.
Again, we find ourselves againtoday and I said, let me write
to my son because, you know,while we've had these
conversations, we've talkedabout it.
I mean, I remember clearlyhaving conversation with him
when he was 11, you know, don'twear your hoodie on the bus, um,
you know, keep your hands outyour pocket.
(38:26):
And you know, don't talk back tothe police.
Uh, like, you know, if you'rewith a group of friends, like we
, I've kind of given him you thehow to live guide for being a
black boy and that you have todo it over and over and over
again.
Right.
And you know, now he's 14, he'sgoing to high school.
And you know, he lives in a,you're living in a fluid
neighborhood.
(38:46):
You know, he goes to schoolwith, you know, most of his
friends are white at his school,nothing wrong with that, but he
needs to understand that he'llbe judged differently.
You know, you and your friendsget stopped.
There's a great probability thatthey're going to view you as a
problem before they view them,even if you're doing nothing.
Um, so that's kind of whatinspired the letters.
(39:07):
Just like just constantreminder, you know, it's not
about preaching or beating himin the head with information,
but just constantly remindinghim, like, just because it
hasn't happened to you yet.
It doesn't mean it can't happen.
That's what, you know, I had todeal with racism early on in
life.
And I, I had some of my ownencounters and you know, he
(39:31):
hasn't had some of thoseexperiences yet.
So, you know, you try to givehim, you know, uh, you know,
some, some lessons you learnedby doing some lessons you learn
by listening, right?
So like I learned that irons arehot by touching the iron that my
grandmother said, don't touchthe iron, you know, I touch it.
(39:54):
So, um, you know, I thinkthat's, that's kind of what the
impetus of my writings was.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Well, it, it was, it was simply beautiful.
It really was.
And it touched a lot of peopleand, you know, I hope you
continue to write because, and Ican't wait for the book because
you definitely have a profoundstory to tell that will touch a
lot of people.
So if anyone wants to read up onjihad and the beautiful articles
(40:22):
that he has written to date, goto medium.com and look up his
name, Joshua Johnson.
So before we end this amazingconversation, cause you and I
could talk forever.
Tell the people, what are youreading right now?
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Um, well I'm rereading James Baldwin, the
fire next time.
I feel like it's very, uh, verytimely.
Absolutely.
Um, it's really good.
What are you listening to?
What am I listening to?
Um, yeah, of course I'm alwayslistening to, to my artists.
(40:59):
Um, I'm a, I'm I get lost injazz constantly.
Like I love Kamasi Washingtonand Robert Glasper and Christian
Scott.
Um, those are some of myfavorites.
Um, and I listen to listen to alot of like, like my old Joe to
see and tribe called quest.
Absolutely.
(41:20):
Um, but yeah, I kinda, I kindabounce around in those spaces
Speaker 2 (41:23):
after the versus, um, one 12 versus, um, uh, jagged
edge.
I had to dig out the one 12album and was like, there, there
are like so many hits on that.
S woo.
I mean, that's, that's whatmusic does.
Sometimes you have to go andrevisit something that was a, at
the bottom of the crate.
(41:44):
That's right.
Listen, jihad.
I cannot thank you enough forparticipating and for being so
open and sharing your journeywith us.
I know a lot of people, um, willbenefit from your words.
I appreciate you alwayssupporting me friends where at
the end of no, need to askpodcasts with Joshua Johnson
(42:04):
until next time be well and besafe.
Thank you.
[inaudible]
Speaker 2 (00:16):
welcome to another episode of no need to ask
podcast.
I am your host, Amani Duncan,and the topic of this episode is
the journey of a records, man.
Hi, jaw.
Welcome to no need to askpodcast.
Thanks for having me.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I'm doing good.
I have no complaints, but I knowwe're so young, but yeah, so,
Speaker 2 (00:43):
but seriously, like over 20 years, I think, um, wow.
We met, uh, when I was at Defjam.
And you were, uh, what were youdoing?
You joined Island Def jam,right?
Correct.
Okay.
And that was probably the latenineties
Speaker 3 (01:01):
that was in 1999.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Oh, so exact.
Wow.
Um, okay.
So, you know, tell us what wereyou doing?
Um, back then when we were atIsland Def jam, I think you were
always on the creator side, butwhy don't you walk the listeners
through like your role backthen?
And we know, why did you want togo into the creator side of the
record business?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I mean, to, to kind of take it back to even how we
even got to Def jam.
Um, I'm originally from New Yorkborn and raised in Brooklyn.
And I live aside for me to go tocollege.
I specifically wanted to go toHBCU.
I'm just inspired to just bearound more people that look
(01:45):
like me.
I mean, yes, both growing up inNew York was diverse and, and of
course I had friends from allwalks of life, but there was
something about the blackcollege experience that I wanted
to have.
And at that time, Atlanta wasreally bubbling and I went to
Clark Atlanta university, acouple of friends of ours, who I
decide to go down there.
And I started interning atLaFace records, which is where
(02:08):
it kind of all started for me.
You know, around that time I wasjust hustling and turning it in
the face.
I turned to Dallas, Austin, arowdy started off promoting
parties and just my friends andI, there was a, there was a
whole contingent of us back then, uh, Chaka, Zulu, Jay Irving,
um, uh, Coltrane, secure Stuart.
(02:30):
There were a lot of us that workI had just knew to come to
Atlanta and we're just trying tofigure it out.
And Atlanta was a great meltingpot city cause it kind of sat in
the middle, uh, which, whichmakes it unique.
And it was only one of the onlycolleges where four black
universities were on the samecampus, Morehouse Spelman,
Morris Brown, and Clark.
(02:50):
And I started originally on thepromotion side.
All my internships were learninghow to promote and promoting
parties in the Prilosecdepartment at record labels for
Shante dies and so on and soforth.
And I'll never forget one day.
Um, I w I was also doing aninternship for these radio pools
for RCA.
I did like some of the recordsthat I was that I have to
(03:11):
promote that I had to literallycall radio stations to promote.
Right.
And, uh, I remember I came backto LaFace and I, young intern
didn't even know Eliquis, youknow, on a personal basis.
And I stopped him in the halland I said, what do you do if
you don't like the records thatyou have to promote?
And he said, he said, there areonly two sides of the business
(03:33):
that really matter.
There's the people who make thepizza, which is the creators and
the ANRs and the people whodeliver the pizza, which are the
promotion people in themarketing people.
And he said, if you don't likewhat you have to sell, then you
should go learn how to make it.
And that was like, that was it.
That was like that one momentof, you know, he probably
(03:53):
doesn't even remember theconversation.
It kind of crystallizedeverything for me.
And I just dug into trying tofind out what it meant to be an
ANR and working with producersand developing talent.
And shortly thereafter, I joinedup with, um, some friends called
noontime that was a collectionof, um, Ryan Glover, Chris
(04:14):
Hicks, Terry Walls, Henry Lee,Shakira Stuart, or myself, some
would come from Howard.
Some from Oakland, Shakira wasMorehouse.
I was at Clark and we startedthis production company,
managing producers anddeveloping artists.
And that quickly led to usworking, you know, with artists
on bad boy and RCA and questsrecords.
(04:36):
And we ended up working on, onthe soundtrack for Def jam at
the time that team Davis wasworking on, um, was, it was
before the have, Oh, how to be aplayer.
Oh yeah.
Shout out to Tina Davis.
Right.
And that's, that's where the Defjam relationship started.
Um, and from there just learningmore about being an, our hair
(04:57):
was this black woman who waslike wanting this aid, our
department at this historic hiphop record label.
And it was just eyeopening.
So, you know, from that time atthe face to now working with
producers and seeing policy, andthen now meaning to you today,
the subtly or, and Kevin Lilesand the whole crew over there,
it just, just kept sparking thefire me more and more to want to
(05:19):
be on the record side.
Um, and after some time justbuilding relationships and
hustling Lee or corn offered mea job to come on board and
specifically work on the RNBside of Def jam.
Cause, uh, as you know, afterthe Island Def jam merger, you
guys inherited, um, some R and Bartists.
We did one being Cisco and drewHill.
(05:41):
And at that time, most of theANRs, they did mostly hip hop.
So it was myself and Jojo.
Brim were the only two guysthere that specifically did R
and B.
So that kind of became my niche.
I'm working with Cisco and youheal Kelly Price one 12.
So I just kind of became knownas the RMB guy at Def jam.
(06:03):
We started a division called Defsoul, a law by Kevin House.
Ken allows and music, soul childwas signed that.
So, and, um, that's, that'swhere it all began for me.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I mean, that's a big move and you just kind of just
glossed over it.
You know, my being of my days ofwhen I just would always bother
Kevin Liles, like I was, I wasfearless back then.
And, and I think a lot of peopletoday, especially with a lot of
young people today, they, youknow, when you tell them these
stories, they can't evenimagine, you know, just
(06:38):
approaching these, these hugeTitans of the industry.
Um, so what, like what made youfeel so confident to just walk
up to LA Reed as an intern andhave that conversation with him
that really was pivotal, pivotalin your career?
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know, andthat's an important point you
make.
And I think whether it was then,you know, I can give examples
of, of today, you know, they're,they're a young creators, like a
young man named justice.
Who's part of a loveRenaissance.
And you know, his spirit remindsme of that.
It's like, you know how heapproaches executives?
Like, you know, I, I cold calledbig John back, you know, back
(07:17):
then and angelic miles when shewas a publisher or walking up on
New York Coleman or RussellSimmons, like that's what we had
to do.
And I think, you know, if youwant to be great, you can't be
scared to engage.
Right.
You might get some doorsslammed, you might get some
shrugged offs and, you know,people not willing to give you
the time.
But, you know, I find that, youknow, the people that you're
(07:39):
approaching, that's usually howwe got how we got them there.
Right.
Somebody stopping to take thetime to give them information.
You know, I always say thatinformation is free.
What you do with it is on you,you know, some, you know, LA
could have given me that samegame and it could've went
completely over my head and Icould have, you know, just left
the music business.
But for me it, it sparkedsomething in me.
(07:59):
And I feel like everyinteraction, every conversation,
whether, you know, no matterwhether someone thinks it's big
or small, um, when I'm talkingto an intern, a random person in
the store, um, a big executiveand artist, I don't take any
interaction or conversation forgranted because that's, that's
where the inspiration comesfrom.
It comes from differentperspectives and, and just kind
(08:23):
of, you never know whatconversation is going to inspire
you or trigger something insideyou to, to write something, to
create something, to have a newidea, you know, that's, that's
the beauty of, to me, the world,right.
You know, it's funny kind of tokind of bring things full
circle, not to really go offsubject.
But when we look at the timesroom with COVID, I think one of
(08:44):
the biggest things we've missedis that human interaction,
right?
Like I think that, I think theworld has learned how to adjust
with platforms like zoom andjust, and, and, um, and
FaceTime.
But there's something about thegenuineness of just having a
casual conversation ordeliberate conversation that
sparks an idea and, you know,specifically entertainment
(09:07):
specifically in music, it's allabout inspiration.
It's all about conversation.
That's where the greatest songscome from.
That's where the greatest ideascome from.
I mean, how many times have youcome up with a great award show
performance or video conceptjust based on conversation with,
with the talent, with otherexecutives with repairs, like
that's, that's what we live offof.
(09:28):
That's the lifeblood of, of, of,uh, of our businesses is, is, is
that type of engagement
Speaker 2 (09:35):
agreed, agreed.
Were so instrumental in bringingR and B for the label to the
forefront.
And then I remember, Oh God,maybe a few years later after we
met, you had an opportunity togo to London.
Can you tell us more about that?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So about a year and a half, then I think it was 2001.
Um, at that time, obviously DefJim's super power was, was hip
hop.
And, um, but there were otherlabels, bigger, you know,
Columbia would just had thesehuge pop stars or in a school
bed, huge rock stars.
Um, and they had dr.
Dre, um, there were other labelsthat were more global and
(10:16):
Aristotle was more global at thetime.
And Def jam being kind of likethis little engine didn't have
that same reach and Lee, or hadjust as global vision for hip
hop and this global vision forthe label as a whole.
And, you know, as we all knowhim, not scared to take on any
new tasks, he's like, I need ourmusic in all those markets.
(10:39):
I need artists to want to goover there.
And back then a lot of domestichip hop artists didn't want to
travel.
They felt like it was a wholeother world.
Like I'm not going to London.
What do they eat over there?
Like they food, you know, whatdo they speak over there?
They speak English.
Right?
Um, so there, there were, therewere a lot of unknowns about the
(11:00):
world back then that don'treally exist today.
And he created this, thiscommittee and we took a trip.
We went to Japan, we went toGermany and went to London and
he wants to meet with ourpartners in universal, in those
prospective markets about how dowe get Def jam thriving and
kinda more engaged in just like,you know, you're a subsidiary
(11:21):
who picks up our record andpromotes one or two records here
and there.
He wanted a real presence inthose markets and he felt for
London, he wanted one of usthere.
He wanted somebody who lived it,who breathed it, who understood,
um, the, kind of the ethos ofthe Def jam culture to go there
and set up shops.
So he tapped me to move toLondon with, uh, you know, this
(11:45):
young kid, 20 something yearsold to build Def jam in London,
um, with a skeleton staffinside, we were housed inside of
mercury, which was also underthe universal, um, umbrella at
the time.
So there were some services thatcame with that no different than
a joint venture.
Right.
And, uh, I moved over there.
(12:06):
We, um, I hired a young mannamed SIM, Texas went on to
become one of the premier DJs inLondon as my, um, urban promo
guy.
Uh, there was a young lady, um,Merriam who did marketing.
And then, you know, I, Ifunctioned as kind of the label
head and the ANR source.
So we wore, you know, typical toour deaf GMB, New York, you wear
(12:29):
multiple hats.
You know, I'd be up in the daytaking meetings, going to MTV,
going to radio, and then I'd beout looking for this.
And, um, and that my, my rolewas two things primarily was to,
to sign domestic talent inLondon and to also bring over
our us talent and make sure thatthey felt well taken care of it
(12:51):
understood the importance ofpromoting that market back then,
you know, like I said, Columbiawas sending more, I carry
Destiny's child.
I mean, those artists were thereweekly working, no different
than a problem with trip toNorth Carolina.
And a lot of other artists,specifically black artists were
not coming over there.
So I was responsible forbringing the Jay Z over,
bringing jar rule over.
(13:12):
At that time we had Christinaand Leon, um, DMX.
I don't think no DMX income withjar rule jar will.
And Jay were two, like we're bigones because they were somewhat
resistant, but they alsounderstood the importance of it.
So it felt good for them whenthey landed to have a familiar
face that they knew that, youknow, kind of knew nuances how
(13:32):
they like to move, what worked,what didn't work.
And, and it was an educationprocess on both sides of the
pond, right?
It's an education process forour artists, just learning that
there is a bigger world outthere, right?
And that this world buys recordsand they are fans and you have
to touch them the same way youtouch, you know, the States.
And it was an education processfor the UK marketplace.
(13:53):
Just understanding that like,there are some cultural nuances
and you have to be mindful ofit.
Right.
You know, sometimes, you know,reporters and other countries
can be very aggressive at thattime, you know, or, you know,
the taste and tone of certaininterviews, right.
Just like just working throughthose things to really kind of
bridge the gap.
So that was, so that was myfunction.
(14:14):
Um, that was a big part of myfunction was kind of opening
that up.
And at that time, you know,there were no other Americans
from, um, living in the UK,working in the music space.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Wow.
So you were really, you werebreaking down barriers and you
were opening doors for others.
I mean, when you think about it,Jay probably had never, right.
He's never, he never went toEurope before that.
So you really, yeah.
You really opened the gate forhim and so many others to
broaden their reach.
And I mean, he's over there allthe time and it never stopped.
(14:45):
So how long were you, were youworking over in the UK?
I was for two years.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
And, and listen, like, you know, like anything,
especially when, when you're inthe beginning of it, it had its
frustrations, right?
Like there was, there was somuch, I appreciated about the UK
marketplace.
I'm I'm to this day.
I'm still glad I did it becauseit gave me, um, a lot of
knowledge and information and,and I've always, I've always
looked at the world as kind of,you know, my playground.
(15:15):
Right.
I don't, I don't, I don't everwant to be limited in a box and
only know one thing I alwayssay, don't, don't judge
something.
You haven't tried.
A lot of people say, Oh, Oh, Ihate this country.
Have you been there?
No.
Okay.
So how do you hate it?
Right.
So I've always been mindful ofbefore I pass judgment on
something to at least try it.
And there's an amazing, um,culture in the UK.
(15:39):
I mean, amazing talent, someamazing songwriters and major
producers.
Um, that amazing executives.
I mean, when I was there, youknow, darkest was still in the
early days of the career, but,you know, I, I, I regard him as
one of the best executives outthere, period.
He has some of the best taste.
Um, and it's, it's not just inone genre, you know, at that
(16:00):
time, leucine Rangers winningthe publishing company was just
moving over to take overuniversal UK completely.
Alright.
So there've been some amazingthings that come out of the UK
and their appreciation for solomusic and urban music and the
understanding of art and cultureis amazing.
But on the other side, therewere things I didn't like, you
know, there was just somewhat,uh, uh, a lack of respect for
(16:25):
black executives and black musicas you moved up the chain.
Cause it just, you know, thiswas a country that was built on
pop music was built on theBeatles, right.
It was that, you know, at thattime, it wasn't what it is today
at all.
So, you know, here's this young,black American coming over here
telling them how to, how theyshould be in the music business.
(16:49):
And, you know, that was met withsome resistance.
Um, so there were frustrationsthere, but right.
Like anything there'll befrustration is it's nothing that
, um, if I had to do it all overagain, I would do it again.
Great.
Cause I think it was important.
I think that it opened up a lotof conversation.
I mean, there's so many peersand friends I have today that
started then, you know, if itwasn't for my time there, I
(17:10):
wouldn't have relationship withTim blacksmith or so many
executives and artists andwriters and producers that, you
know, as I was coming up, theywere coming up then also.
So,
Speaker 2 (17:20):
so a little bit, like, are you talking about the
traditional label structure,there was resistance with maybe
an American coming in and givinghis or her purview on how to
market and promote and developartists?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, I think specifically on the label side,
of course there were someexecutives, you know, I credit
Lucien with understanding theimportance of, you know,
American, black culture music.
I credit, you know, there was,there was, there were a
executives, you know, that I metthere from other labels that
definitely understood it.
(17:54):
I think overall it was new.
It was just new and they didn't,they didn't get some of the
tastes and tone, you know, forexample, I remember, you know,
why does JZ have to stay at thishotel?
Or why, you know, why do we haveto spend this much on dinner?
Right.
It was a very differentconservative approach, but they
(18:15):
didn't understand this part ofthe culture.
As you know, it's not just, youknow, these things are authentic
to the artists, right?
That's it, Jay's you spendinghis own money.
He's going to stay at the hotel.
So if you want him to come overhere to promote, to sell
records, which ultimately helpsyour bottom line, then you've
got to appreciate, this is howthat artist moves.
(18:36):
Right.
So it was like conversationslike that, that I had to have
that weren't even a conversationin the state.
It wasn't even like it was,Kevin was like, go get Jay Z,
two cases of Chris' style.
Why, why isn't it done already?
Why isn't it done already?
So when I say with distance, Imean, just like having to
(18:58):
explain why these nuances areimportant that today, you know,
they get right back then was, itwas, this is ridiculous.
This is too much money.
Why does this cost this?
And why do we have to spend thison that?
And, and it was just like,
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I remember those conversations back in the
States, we would hear aboutthem.
And we're like, what are thesepeople talking about?
Like, this is the way it gets me.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
And this is how this, how it gets done.
And we came from, we came fromto get it done label,
Speaker 2 (19:30):
absolutely.
By any means necessary.
You need to get it done.
Well, it sounds exciting.
I love London.
I've spent a lot of time thereand I agree there's, there's so
much talent that continues toemerge from, from the UK.
Tinie, Tempah like the list justgoes on and on and it's just,
I'm so glad that you had thatopportunity to spend that time
there.
(19:51):
So let's fast forward to today.
Um, you're currently the head ofANR at Hidcote records.
Um, let's, let's talk a bitabout that.
I'm as you know, personallyobsessed with one of your
artists st.
John, he is just incredible.
Um, so talk to us about hit colike how did that even come
about?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Well, first, thank you for all your support, you
know, in your, in your MTV life,you were definitely at the head
of the table, um, you know,fighting for an artist, you
know, again, you know, a lot oftimes people don't understand.
Right.
And I'm pretty sure that there'sprobably executives there now
looking like looking back, like,yeah, we weren't, we were on it.
Like everyone was on it.
(20:36):
Now that is number one.
But, um, yeah, it's funny that,you know, my life with hit co is
kind of brings me full circleback to working with Ellie Reed.
And it was at a point when I,after my last label experience
said, I didn't want to do labelsanymore.
You know, I had a great one atDef GMR was called at those my
(20:57):
college years.
Um, and then went on toInterscope Geffen for four
years.
And it was amazing.
It was, it was, it wasn't thesame family vibe, but, you know,
I had a great boss in Jeff Crossthat I got to work with people
like Paul, Anthony and Jimmybeen and work with amazing
talent like Mary and common inFlorida the most.
But, you know, the, I feel liketowards the end of bed runners,
(21:20):
when there was a shift in thelabel, the kind of label energy,
whereas artists were becomingmore independent and labels
were, were hiring what I callless creative.
Right.
It was more just operators.
And you, you saw the rise of,of, of artists that just kind of
like insulated themselves withtheir own team, their own video
people don't and our people likethe managers were just way more
(21:42):
on it.
And it's kind of drew me intomanagement.
You know, I looked at our peerslike G Robeson, who was in, was
a, was a label as like a and RRockefeller.
And, and you, you, you, you takeall that knowledge.
And he said, well, every artisthas their own record label.
I can do it.
And you know, I, after, youknow, several years managing,
(22:04):
you know, our shirt and Mary incommon and Brandy and tank and
dream, you know, you, you learnhow to do everything, you know,
as, as you know, when you, whenyou work at a record label, it
could be the greatest recordlabel in the world.
It's still a job, right.
Still, it's still, there's stillan end of the day.
There still is no leaving.
So one artist, you know, you're,you're, you're leading.
(22:25):
This is to the label, but whenyou're a manager, it's 24 seven,
it's no matter what it is frompersonal and professional.
And I actually really enjoyedthat because it's sharpened me
up.
It gave me way more skill setsin my tool chest that I've never
had.
Right.
Like my understanding of touringand film and TV and publicity,
and just like, um, branding.
(22:46):
So it well-rounded me.
Um, and I think it prepared mefor him today with his coat,
because this is, this is thefirst time since LA had LaFace
records, that he has a startupand in today's world, a startup
has to operate more like amanagement company.
Like you have to better roll upyour sleeves and do everything.
You know, we didn't, we're not,we didn't start, you know, under
(23:06):
some major we started as anindependent with, you know, a 30
person staff.
And when we first started was meLA our CFO, his partner,
Charles, it was four or five ofus.
And we just, you know, we were,we signed st.
John before we even had ouroffice.
Wow.
We were still working from, youknow, studios and in hotel
lobbies as offices, veryreminiscent of early Def jam
(23:29):
days.
Exactly.
So it's, it's been great becauseI feel like had I not had all
those years and experiences as amanager, I would not be prepared
to do what I'm doing now.
And I love it.
Um, I think it's, I think it'sgreat.
I think it's the future.
I think that, and you know, ina, in a funny turn of events, I
think that record labels haveagain, become more important
than they've been in a longtime, because they've been
(23:52):
forced to really step up, youknow, because you're now in
competition with the artists,you have to prove to the artists
that you can bring value totheir careers because artists
don't need you.
And the artists now can make themusic go straight to Spotify, go
straight to Apple, go straightto YouTube and go straight to
MTV, straight to, to Jimmy foundlike an artist is not have to be
(24:12):
represented by a record label tohave some of the same, um,
opportunities that they're theircounterparts do that aside.
So awareness in the youngerartists.
Absolutely they're there, theyare more in tuned than ever
before they, and, you know,thanks to the internet.
They are just way there.
(24:34):
They're so informed.
They're they're glare.
They, you know, they can look atthese numbers every day.
They can go to Spotify and seewhich artists are moving, seem
to collaboration moving.
I mean, and there's so much dataavailable, you know, w you know,
what are the artists top fivemarkets, that's public
information on Spotify, right?
So, um, it, artists have, havehad more access to information.
(24:55):
It's cheaper to do everything.
It's cheaper to make videoscheaper, to make songs.
So an artist doesn't have tohave this huge recording budget,
or, you know, they don't have tohave these shooting budgets that
we got accustomed to, to be acontender in the game.
Um, so I think there's artists,there's so much power in our
artist's hands now, more thanever.
And, you know, as we learn from,you know, one of the, one of the
(25:17):
most valuable things Laura Leeor ever told me was your power
comes from the artists, right?
Like, it's your ability to beassociated and move the talent
because our business is based onthem.
No, we don't sing or dance.
Right.
So you can move the talent, thenwhat's your, what is your true
value?
Right.
And, um, you know, that's evenmore relevant today than ever
(25:41):
before, because what's your truevalue.
If, if an artists like Drake cando everything himself, then if
you're on his team, you have tobring some real value because
he's already shown you.
I got this, I know what I'mdoing.
Right.
You know what I'm saying?
So, um, yeah, as, as a, as abrought me to hit go, it really
forced me to, you know, what'smy value.
(26:04):
How does this company matter?
Right?
Yes.
LA is one of the greatestrecommend ever, you know, and
how do we support that?
Once we sign the artists, whenwe make the records, you know,
how do I use relationships likeyours and call MTV?
You know, that was, that that'sproviding value, right?
The artists didn't have arelationship with the, at the,
at the network, or how do I putvalue?
You know, any, once again, backto my manager days, it's like,
(26:27):
okay, I can pick up and callJesse Collins or, or Julie from
Fallon, or, you know, when SaintJohn wanted to be front row at
Kirby's Piramal show, he calledme.
Right.
I was able to make that phonecall to Kirby directly make the
introduction.
Like you have to be able toprovide value because if not,
the artist is going to figureout on their own, and then they
(26:48):
don't need you.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Exactly.
Exactly.
So other than st.
John, my all time, favoriteartists, what are you really
excited about coming out of[inaudible]?
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Oh, so, so much.
I mean, I feel like, you know,now that we've got our first two
years behind us, and we're notthird years, you know, like,
like any startup we've, we'vemade our mistakes, we've kind of
reviewed the review, the gametape, and, and we're, we're so
much better now.
I mean, we're, we're reallyseeing yellow BZ starting to
blossom.
Uh, one of, one of our earlysignings out of Dallas, um, we
(27:20):
have a young lady namedbureaucratic R and B singer out
of Chicago.
That's amazing.
That's going to shock everybody.
Um, we've got this new pop girl,Chelsea Collins.
That's amazing.
Also, um, we have this amazingsinger songwriter, the Lacey, I
mean, there's just so much that,you know, so much that that's
kind of moving into its secondphase.
(27:41):
Some things starting in theirfirst phase, you know, um, that
we're really excited about.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
So, you know, recently, I mean, you get the
question.
It probably as much as I get thequestion, but recently this
young lady called me and shewanted some advice.
And the advice obviously was howto get into the music business.
And when I asked her, well, whydo you want to go into the music
business?
She went on and on about howmuch she loves music and how she
(28:07):
loves to attend shows.
And I, you know, I had to kindof gently tell her those really
aren't reasons to go into themusic business.
We all like to go to shows andwe all like, uh, you know,
music.
So what advice as a records,man, who's been, you know, who's
had a very distinguished and,and interesting career journey.
(28:30):
What's the one piece of adviceyou would give to someone who
wants to work in the musicindustry.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
You know, that's a great question.
And I'm going to try my best tosum it up in one answer.
I think it's start with, what doyou love?
And then why do you love it?
Right.
Um, and that could sound vague,but it's, it's really not.
If you think about it, right?
If, if you say you love themusic business, well, what do
you love?
Do you love the visual?
(29:01):
Do you love videos, right.
If you love videos and studyvideos, right?
Like, look at them.
What do you love about the waythey're shot through with the
storytelling?
Do you love the people that putthat together?
Um, do you feel like you're moreof a creator or an executer?
You know, it starts with reallyhaving honest looks in the
mirror and saying, okay, what amI great at?
Or what do I think I have thepotential to be great at?
(29:23):
And how does, how, how does thatapply to my love of whatever
piece of the business that I'mwant to get into?
And you don't have to know thatanswer out the gate, right?
You, it, you know, you start asan intern.
I started as a promo internbefore I figured out I love the
ANR.
You can bounce around that.
There's nothing wrong with thatis you can, you can try a lot of
(29:45):
different departments and see,you know, what, you may not know
anything about you may in thebluffing, right.
But, but it's, it has to startwith the pure love.
I knew I loved music and what Ialways loved or what it would,
it goes back to me is, you know,eighth grade I'm on a rooftop in
Brooklyn and this girl plays isgoing through our mom's record
(30:09):
collection and she plays DonnyHathaway assault for you.
And I remember in that moment,how that song made me feel,
right.
It was just like, it was afeeling.
And I said, at that moment, Iwant to be responsible for
giving people that feeling.
So how do I do that?
Right.
I remember the first time Iheard a song I was involved with
on the radio and how it felt andhow the people around me
(30:29):
reacted.
Right.
So, so it has to start withsomething pure.
Like what's the feeling you wantto give people, and then what's
your contribution to that,right?
It doesn't, you know, for me, itwas, it became an art.
It became, it became the balancebetween creative and an
execution.
Like, okay, you identify thetalent.
(30:50):
What should, what's your pointof view?
And what's your objectivity, youknow, are you finding the right
producers, the songwriters?
Is it your conversation thatsparks a song that they saying,
you know, and how do you, how doyou evolve on that?
So my answer is, start with whatyou love, and then start at the
ground level, just intern, justpay attention, look at
everything, turn over every rockand find out what you like and
(31:11):
what you don't like.
And it will reveal itself as youdo it.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I agree.
As you know, I started as anintern working under Tina Davis
and I did a and R admin and thenwent on to do promotions and
then video promotions, and thenfound what I really love, which
was marketing.
So, you know, we were, we werelucky.
We were able to work in almostevery department that we wanted
to work in a, at a record labelto really fine tune what our
(31:39):
passion points were.
And so, you know, I just don'tknow to in today's environment,
if interns or people that arejust starting out in their
careers have that flexibility,
Speaker 3 (31:50):
it still exists.
It's it?
Listen, I think, um, some of therules have changed and the
requirements for being an internand so on and so forth, but a
true house.
So figures it out.
Right.
I still, I still have interns.
There are still people that, youknow, you see intern at a
management company.
I mean, I always credit, youknow, our brothers, Jeff Dixon
and Shaka, Zulu, listen,absolutely TP has fostered more
(32:13):
executive talent and just out oftheir little office in Atlanta,
then a lot of people.
Right, right.
Love Renaissance, Amber Grimes.
So many people that just camefrom there being around.
Um, we, we all have stories likethat there in terms of I've had,
or people that worked for methat, you know, when Eve Pierre
was an intern at Rockefeller andthey came to work with me in the
(32:36):
management side.
And I, I forced her into theagency side and said, you gotta
go to ICM.
I don't know.
I don't know what that is.
I don't know.
I don't, well, you're going totry it and now she loves it.
Right.
So it's, it's, it's if you wantit, the opportunities are there.
And that goes back to thathustler mentality, right.
That, that never changed.
That never goes away.
I see it today, as clear as Idid when I started the main
(32:59):
thing.
So let's segue out of, uh, therecord man story,
Speaker 2 (33:04):
you know, I was pleasantly pleased when I came
across an article that youwrote, which is up on medium.
And I will send that link out toeveryone which will be in the
podcast and it was entitled whyI run.
And it's, it was a letter toyour son.
So you, you have a teenage son,um, you know, it's needless to
(33:25):
say my heart is, is weary.
Um, I think we are all a bitweary, but energized about the
injustices that are, you know,at the forefront at this moment.
I mean, we injustices againstAfrican Americans or black
people.
It has been ongoing forunfortunately decades, but, um,
(33:48):
right now we're, we're in themiddle of a lot of unrest.
Um, whether it's from COVID to,um, George Floyd and the list
goes on and on.
And so I remember, um, walkingin my neighborhood, maybe a
couple of days after GeorgeFloyd was, was murdered.
And I came across a youngAfrican American boy on a bike
(34:13):
and we spoke to each other and Isaid to him, maybe a little too
passionately, be careful outhere.
And I started to cry.
I mean, I felt it's so, so deepin my heart.
Um, so as a conscious andrighteous father, like how are
(34:34):
you preparing your son to dealwith the world that we live in
today and how do you keep himencouraged to be a part of the
change that we seek?
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah, listen, it's, it's, it's, um, you know, as,
you know, being a parent, youknow, every day is, is a new
test is a new day.
Um, I think, you know, for me,the, the motivation behind that
writing, you know, it's beenabout maybe five, six years now.
(35:10):
Um, I had a really bad surfingaccident.
Um, ironically, um, after I justdid a cross country father, son
trip with my son, um, that, uh,that was, you know, one of those
eyeopening moments.
And, uh, I'll never forget that,um, after my surgery against
(35:30):
doctor's orders, of course,cause I'm hard headed.
Um, I'm on a flight with commonto Tokyo for some shows and I'm
still in a lot of pain.
I may be days out of surgery andcommon.
Someone had referred to him atie and I see coaches between
the world and me at that time.
And he kind of was tellingeverybody on the team about it.
And I'll never forget that planeride from LA to Tokyo.
(35:52):
I read the whole book and then,um, it was basically letters to
his son and it kind of spoke tospoke to the times we're living
in right now, which is nothingnew that, you know, obviously
we've been dealing with this for400 years, plus indeed.
And, uh, when I landed, youknow, between reading that book
and the thought that, you know,my accident could have, you
(36:13):
know, see me no longer here.
I said, I need to be able towrite to my son because I may
not always be around to give himsome of the games, some of the
lessons, some information justabout being a man about, about
love, about relationships, aboutbeing black.
Um, and you know, I thoughtabout, you know, my father
wasn't there and there, he, he,there was no one there to tell
(36:35):
me those stories and while I amin his life, you know, I have to
make sure I'm giving him thestories.
And I, you know, we talk andobviously teenage boys and, you
know, black men, we don't, wesometimes we don't communicate
the best, you know, father, sonconversation that aren't, you
know, always as fluid as theyshould be.
But, you know, once you write itdown, it's always there.
(36:58):
And, um, so I started writingthen, and then I kind of, I
would come in and out of it, Ishared, some of them are some
reminders from friends.
Like you should write a book and, um, you know, fast forward I
was, I was inspired againrecently after the passing of,
um, our friend Andrew around tostart writing again.
Cause I just said, you know,that's part of my purpose,
(37:21):
right?
Like we all have a role to play.
We all have a purpose of PEplaying change and you know,
like any other culture,storytelling is our currency
that you pass forward.
Right.
It's like, you know, the Bibleis this book that we all
reference.
We weren't here to write it.
Right.
(37:41):
Like, but we're all, we're allhere to take inspiration from
it.
While here it gives us somethingto model our lives after.
And that's, to me what writingis, it's like, it gives people
kind of roadmap.
It gives people inspirationinformation.
Um, so, um, after I wrote, youknow, kind of this letter to
Andrew around just with theimportance of that he had in my
life, um, I was then inspired bythe George, George Florida and
(38:06):
where we are.
Again, we find ourselves againtoday and I said, let me write
to my son because, you know,while we've had these
conversations, we've talkedabout it.
I mean, I remember clearlyhaving conversation with him
when he was 11, you know, don'twear your hoodie on the bus, um,
you know, keep your hands outyour pocket.
(38:26):
And you know, don't talk back tothe police.
Uh, like, you know, if you'rewith a group of friends, like we
, I've kind of given him you thehow to live guide for being a
black boy and that you have todo it over and over and over
again.
Right.
And you know, now he's 14, he'sgoing to high school.
And you know, he lives in a,you're living in a fluid
neighborhood.
(38:46):
You know, he goes to schoolwith, you know, most of his
friends are white at his school,nothing wrong with that, but he
needs to understand that he'llbe judged differently.
You know, you and your friendsget stopped.
There's a great probability thatthey're going to view you as a
problem before they view them,even if you're doing nothing.
Um, so that's kind of whatinspired the letters.
(39:07):
Just like just constantreminder, you know, it's not
about preaching or beating himin the head with information,
but just constantly remindinghim, like, just because it
hasn't happened to you yet.
It doesn't mean it can't happen.
That's what, you know, I had todeal with racism early on in
life.
And I, I had some of my ownencounters and you know, he
(39:31):
hasn't had some of thoseexperiences yet.
So, you know, you try to givehim, you know, uh, you know,
some, some lessons you learnedby doing some lessons you learn
by listening, right?
So like I learned that irons arehot by touching the iron that my
grandmother said, don't touchthe iron, you know, I touch it.
(39:54):
So, um, you know, I thinkthat's, that's kind of what the
impetus of my writings was.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Well, it, it was, it was simply beautiful.
It really was.
And it touched a lot of peopleand, you know, I hope you
continue to write because, and Ican't wait for the book because
you definitely have a profoundstory to tell that will touch a
lot of people.
So if anyone wants to read up onjihad and the beautiful articles
(40:22):
that he has written to date, goto medium.com and look up his
name, Joshua Johnson.
So before we end this amazingconversation, cause you and I
could talk forever.
Tell the people, what are youreading right now?
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Um, well I'm rereading James Baldwin, the
fire next time.
I feel like it's very, uh, verytimely.
Absolutely.
Um, it's really good.
What are you listening to?
What am I listening to?
Um, yeah, of course I'm alwayslistening to, to my artists.
(40:59):
Um, I'm a, I'm I get lost injazz constantly.
Like I love Kamasi Washingtonand Robert Glasper and Christian
Scott.
Um, those are some of myfavorites.
Um, and I listen to listen to alot of like, like my old Joe to
see and tribe called quest.
Absolutely.
(41:20):
Um, but yeah, I kinda, I kindabounce around in those spaces
Speaker 2 (41:23):
after the versus, um, one 12 versus, um, uh, jagged
edge.
I had to dig out the one 12album and was like, there, there
are like so many hits on that.
S woo.
I mean, that's, that's whatmusic does.
Sometimes you have to go andrevisit something that was a, at
the bottom of the crate.
(41:44):
That's right.
Listen, jihad.
I cannot thank you enough forparticipating and for being so
open and sharing your journeywith us.
I know a lot of people, um, willbenefit from your words.
I appreciate you alwayssupporting me friends where at
the end of no, need to askpodcasts with Joshua Johnson
(42:04):
until next time be well and besafe.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.