August 24, 2025 • 50 mins
The red emergency phone had never rung before. When it finally did on December 21st, 1988, trauma nurse Tony Bonner and the Medic One rapid response team knew they were facing something unprecedented. A jumbo jet had crashed in Lockerbie, Scotland, and they were racing toward one of the worst aviation disasters in history.
Tony's journey to that pivotal night was anything but straightforward. From seminary school at age 11 where he was preparing for priesthood (despite becoming what he calls an "evangelical atheist" by 15), to psychiatric nursing where he handled volatile patients including two men both convinced they were Jesus Christ, Tony's career path defied convention. Eventually drawn to emergency medicine for its adrenaline and the opportunity to make life-or-death differences, he found himself on Scotland's elite trauma response team, Medic One.
Nothing could have prepared them for Lockerbie. Racing through stormy winter weather at breakneck speeds in a police Range Rover, Tony and his colleagues tried reassuring each other they could handle what awaited. The scene that greeted them was apocalyptic – houses obliterated, fires burning everywhere, jet fuel running down gutters, and wreckage scattered across miles. Following a local GP's lead up Tundergarth Hill, they made a surreal discovery that encapsulates the jarring nature of the disaster – the cockpit of Pan Am Flight 103 lying in a field among grazing sheep.
This vivid, first-hand account offers rare insight into the human experience behind disaster response. Beyond the technical aspects of emergency medicine, we witness the fear, doubt, and determination of those who step forward when tragedy strikes. Join us for this two-part episode as Tony recounts his extraordinary experience at Lockerbie and shares how it eventually led him toward an entirely new career as a criminal prosecutor.
If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a five-star rating and review, and tell a friend about the show.
WANT TO BE A GUEST? You can submit your own career story through our website at noordinarymonday.com or email us at hello@noordinarymonday.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
It's 7.30pm on December 21st 1988.
It was a cold and stormy nightin Edinburgh, scotland.
It was a pretty typical eveningin the emergency department.
That was until the redemergency phone rings.
It's the first time the redphone has ever rung.
It's the police and the news isutterly shocking A jumbo jet
(00:27):
has crashed in the town ofLockerbie.
Hundreds of people are feareddead and Tony Bonner, a trauma
nurse for the Rapid ResponseUnit, medic 1, is ordered
straight to the crash to searchfor survivors with his team.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And we were terrified .
You know, the biggest challengethat an accident, emergency or
a trauma nurse or doctor has iswhen you bite off the big one.
Have you got what it takes?
And I think we all felt thatthis was the biggest one ever
and we didn't really know if wecould function in these
(01:08):
circumstances or not.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
As they searched Lockerbie out of the darkness, a
mangled cockpit of a jumbo jetappeared lying in a field filled
with sheep.
This was a night that Tonywouldn't soon forget.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of no Ordinary Monday.
(01:36):
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I am your host, chris Barron,and each week I sit down with a
guest whose job is far fromordinary.
We'll explore how they gotthere, what it's really like
behind the scenes, and thenthey'll reveal the single most
unforgettable experience oftheir career.
In today's episode I'm joinedby someone who was actually one
(01:57):
of the initial inspirations forthis podcast.
Tony Bonner has a fascinatingand twisting career journey from
seminary school to psychiatricnursing, to becoming a criminal
prosecutor later in life andfull disclosure.
He is also my uncle.
Tony's unforgettable storyhappened in December 1988.
(02:19):
At the time he was part ofMedic 1, which is Scotland's
legendary rapid response traumaunit.
That night he and the team werecalled to one of the worst air
disasters in history theLockerbie bombing.
So in this two part episode,tony vividly recounts his
Lockerbie story for the firsttime on record and reveals how
(02:41):
his career shifted after thatreally extraordinary experience.
Please subscribe now so youdon't miss out when part two
comes out next week.
With all that said, I am superexcited to bring you guys this
story You're listening to.
No Ordinary Monday, let's getinto the show.
(03:06):
All right, tony Bonner, welcome,welcome.
Thank you so much for takingthe time today.
How are you doing?
Good thanks, good, yeah, good.
Well, I want to thank you fortaking the time for this podcast
.
It's fantastic to have youbecause I know that.
You know, what's great for meis that you're my uncle, so we I
(03:26):
know you're a wee bit.
I know you've got a fascinatingtale, especially when it comes
to the jobs you've done before.
You know, I think you know.
Just to list off a few things,you know you were there at the
locker b uh first response tolocker b bombing, which a lot of
people will be very familiarwith.
You went on to have an entirelynew career after that, being a
(03:48):
broker, fiscal or a what do youcall it for, a more
international term for that?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
A district attorney would be the American equivalent
, but just a prosecutor.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So a criminal lawyer, a criminal prosecutor?
Yes, so you've had afascinating career and I think
that's what's brilliant, is thathopefully we can cover a bit of
ground and you can share a bitwith that for us.
So I guess where I want tostart is right at the beginning.
What did you want to be whenyou grew up?
(04:23):
Obviously, looking back now, itwas maybe a little bit
different when you were seven oreight.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I'll tell you the absolute honest truth, chris.
I didn't have a first idea whatI wanted to do.
My childhood was interrupted bywhen I was 11.
My parents sent me to aseminary, which was a
preparatory college, to become aCatholic priest from a Catholic
(04:53):
family.
And I was only 11 and I wasaway from home for the next
three and a half years, whichwere all kind of my formative
years.
They took me out of high schoolat the end of second year and
dropped me back in it at thestart of sixth year, and so my
(05:16):
formative years were strange.
So I probably had more jokes inLatin than I did in anything
else, which was a sad admission.
But it meant that I arrived inhigh school at the age of 17 and
I didn't have a clue aboutanything Girls, careers, nothing
(05:38):
Up until that point, it was avery religious trajectory, yeah.
But the bizarre thing about it Iwas pretty sure I was an
evangelical atheist by the timeI was 15.
And I knew deep down insidethat I wasn't good priest
material as a consequence butthat's kind of a tough thing to
(06:02):
tell your parents.
My parents, my grandparents,took a lot of pride in the fact
that I was at seminary.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
So you didn't have a choice.
You didn't have a choice in thematter.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Well, you know my parents might say well, you know
, you chose to go, but no11-year-old chooses something
like that.
I don't think, and I certainlydidn't.
When did I decide what I wantedto do with my life?
Actually, I can't think of anypoint where I I had a
determination to do a specificthing interesting so you went in
(06:35):
11 and then you said by 15.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
you knew you were an evangelical atheist and you and
you had to keep up the charadefor a while, did you?
Yes, I did, yes, I did.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
But I eventually told my parents.
It came as no surprise to mydad.
My dad was a hard-working carmechanic but he was a good judge
of people and he knew that Iwas doing this for them, not for
me.
And they also knew that I woulddo anything to get out of
having to go to the church.
And they also knew that I woulddo anything to get out of
having to go to the church,which really was a parter for
(07:09):
ten, Chris.
I think even a casual observerwould have decided I wasn't the
one.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
So you basically kept up the charade, but then at
some point did you came clean ordid you just get to a point?
Because I think, seminaryschool, basically what happens
is you join seminary school andthen you're on a trajectory for
priesthood, essentially for therest of your life.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I was.
I was the one that all myfriends at seminary felt was the
one most likely to make it allthe way.
What's?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
all the way Priesthood.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, yeah, I mean Michael Bifter.
I knew inside myself and Ithink my close I still have two
friends from back then, twoclose friends from back then and
I think they knew pretty muchthat I wasn't, that my heart
wasn't in it, my intellectwasn't in it, my intellect
(08:06):
wasn't in it, it didn't work forme on any level whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So when I decided to leave, and so you kind of landed
in high school, 17 or so, andnot a Scooby, just not a.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Scooby.
And so what happened?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
you finished school, and then what was the trajectory
?
And not a scooby, not a scooby.
And so what happened?
You finished school, and thenwhat was the trajectory from
there?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Listen, I would love to describe to you some gently
and emerging vocation in life,but I can't.
My mum was a psychiatric nurseat the time and she worked in
the local psychiatric hospitalnear where we lived.
(08:52):
And I got a job a summer job asa nursing assistant in this
psychiatric hospital because Ineeded some money.
I wanted to buy a bass guitarbecause I thought it looked cool
.
I couldn't play it, you know,these are details.
So I got a summer job and I gotmy bass guitar and went back to
(09:18):
finish the next year at schooland got a summer job again and
my mum said well, you're prettygood at this.
She reckoned, why don't youapply to become a student nurse,
student psychiatric nurse?
So I just kind of fell into it.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I mean, what did that summer job entail as a
psychiatric nurse?
What were you getting up to?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, as a care assistant were you getting up to
?
As a care assistant you wouldbe attached to a ward in the
hospital the ones I can remember.
There was one full ofunfortunate men who had
Alzheimer's and such, and then Iworked in a ward which had some
(10:08):
people of limited mentalability and a wide range of
social skills or lack thereof.
So you just really spent allday trying to organise their
lives, you know.
But I didn't find itparticularly challenging.
(10:30):
I thought it was.
You know, I could do it.
There are a lot of people whocan't do it, you know.
So I suppose I had a head startand certainly they took me on
as a student nurse in the SouthLothian College of Nursing and
Midwifery, Took me on straightaway.
So I found myself a qualifiedpsychiatric nurse working in
(10:55):
Edinburgh without actuallythinking that I'd made any
decision to arrive there at all.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
That's crazy Interesting.
And then you've I mean I'm surethat being a nurse, you know
you've got.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
you've probably got some fascinating tales, I'm sure
, from all over so at the brightold age of 21 I might have been
22 I'd find myself workingshifts in the Royal Edinburgh
Hospital, had a locked ward andbecause I was a staff nurse at
(11:36):
this point, fully qualifiedpsychiatric nurse, I had a badge
telling everybody that I wasfully qualified and in fact I
didn't have a first idea of whatI was doing.
But I would find myself incharge of this locked ward in
the Royal Edinburgh Hospital andit had 15 beds and the most
disturbed people in Edinburgh,male and female, were all locked
(12:01):
up in the same ward at the sametime and you can imagine it's
not a recipe for peace and quiet.
Were all locked up in the sameward at the same time and you
can imagine it's not a recipefor peace and quiet.
I can remember a couple ofsituations where one poor chap
(12:21):
was in who was labouring underthe belief that he was Jesus
Christ and whilst he was quitemad, unfortunately that
afternoon another Jesus Christgot admitted and you can imagine
none of them were so bereft ofknowledge of the Bible and how
(12:44):
the story should have gone, butboth of them were pretty sure
there could only be one JesusChrist.
What would that be?
The other was obviously animposter and must be disposed of
forthwith.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Oh wow, so there was a battle of the Jesuses.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
There's no doubt about it, and I remember I was
in the.
The deuteron was the one end ofa long corridor and door into
the ward was at the other, andwe were having a lively day, as
was pretty usual, when thissecond guy was brought in and
what he'd done is he'd taken awhite bed sheet and cut a hole
out the middle and the doorswung open and this guy was
(13:23):
standing at the far end of thecorridor with his arms out
welcoming his flock, and Iremember just thinking it was
almost like a mirage orsomething, or like a
hallucination, that a celestialfigure had just turned up at the
far end of the world.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Anyway, it all kicked off after that when they led
Jesus on, but then that I guessin a place like that you've
probably got to not always go bythe book.
You've got to find your ownsolutions a lot of the time.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Right yeah, you've just got to just get own
solutions a lot of the time,right?
Yeah, you've just got to justget through the day.
You know, whatever you know,there's a lot of serious
analysis going on of people'spsychiatric conditions and stuff
, but actually you spent the dayjust trying to keep the peace.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
You started on this track of almost being a priest,
fell into psychiatric nurse,absolutely Medic one, and then
kind of just give us a veryquick version of the entire
thing up until today, just togive us a very abbreviated
version of things.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So the word that I've described was known as the
intensive psychiatric care unit,and I decided that once I'd
done that, I probably didn'twant to go into any other part
of psychiatry.
Was known as the IntensivePsychiatric Care Unit, and I
decided that once I'd done that,I probably didn't want to go
into any other part ofpsychiatry.
So I applied to do my generalnursing, which was a
qualification.
I would need to work in ageneral hospital and I always
(14:53):
had my eye on accident andemergency as being somewhere.
I wanted to work, but my firstjob what was that?
Accident and emergency as beingsomewhere.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I wanted to work.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
What is that?
It will become obvious to you,I'm a bit of an adrenaline
junkie actually.
I like challenges in fastmoving situations.
Life and death, Certainly that.
And I think a year and a halfleading up to that I worked in
(15:22):
anaesthetics and intensive carein the Western General Hospital
in Edinburgh and that was apretty exciting job as well.
But accident and emergency wasespecially in Edinburgh at the
time was a cutting edge oftrauma care and I just wanted to
be part of it, wanted to testmyself in these difficult
(15:43):
environment, very difficultenvironment it's.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
it's really interesting because some people
I guess if you interviewed a lotof people in the medical
industry, they might say oh, youknow, I got into this because I
wanted to take care of people,or you know, I wanted to try and
help the world, or whatever.
But you know that might be partof your answer, but really it's
like you just wanted a thrill.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
You wanted something that got your heart rate going.
That reflects really badly onme.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
No, no.
What I'm saying is that Ireckon that you're not the only
one.
I reckon that's the stockanswer for a lot of people, but
it might not be.
The actual, true answer is whatI was getting at, you know,
because it is an exciting placeto be.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yes, it is, but but also you know, like the fuller
answer would be.
I knew I was able to work inthese environments, I knew I'd
be okay and and the mainmotivating factor was you make
the difference between peoplesurviving and not surviving.
(16:44):
So a large part of it was adesire to provide public service
to I don't want to be overbiblical about it, but you know
to help your little man at atime where they really needed
somebody to keep their shittogether.
And I was quite sure I was thatguy.
(17:06):
You know, and there are lotslike me it's not just me, but
you know, I knew it would be achallenging environment and I
knew I could work there and Iknew that there would be times
where that would make thedifference between people who I
didn't know living and dying.
So that was a part of it waswas to care for people in
(17:30):
difficult circumstances and how?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
how did you handle it ?
I guess there's always thefirst time someone dies on the
table or near you, or because ofyou potentially.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
What was?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
it like the first time.
How was that?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Listen, I'm happy to put on the record that I don't
think I've actually ever killedanybody.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Well, that would put you in a difficult position with
your later career.
Well, that would put you in adifficult position with your
later career.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
But there were times that there was nothing you could
do to save somebody and I foundthat difficult Because it was
kind of Almost like a rejectionof your skills and abilities To
actually lose somebody.
Because actually the people Iworked with and I worked with
(18:21):
some of the best trauma surgeonsand nurses, I think, anywhere
in the world and we fancied ourchances of saving everybody.
So when the time came and itdidn't happen, we were all
gutted, you gutted.
We were pretty much devastated.
We'd become introspective, kindof look at our performance,
(18:45):
almost like a post-matchanalysis of what had happened.
But that's because we felt it.
We felt that actually we'd letsomebody down, whereas in fact I
don't think anybody.
If we couldn't save anybody, Idon't think it was possible to
save them.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Do you remember the first time?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I can't really, because I've seen a lot of death
in both of my careers andthere's nothing terribly
memorable about it.
People can die quietly and justlook like they're sleeping, and
people can die because they'vejust been hit by a bus and they
(19:33):
look dramatically different, butnothing really sticks.
No individual sticks in my mind.
I can't remember the first time.
I think the first dead person Isaw was my grandfather when I
was about 13.
And then when I started, I sawsome people dying when I did my
(19:59):
psychiatry and again when I didintensive care.
It was actually quite a usualfeature of your day that
somebody wouldn't make it.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You're talking about the amount of death that you've
witnessed at that time.
That's obviously a low point,but what are the high points in
that job?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, the high points were working with an amazing
group of people and you all hadyour eyes on the prize.
Everybody wanted the exact sameoutcome.
You learn how to do somethingthat's really difficult with the
very best.
It becomes easier because ofthe skills and the knowledge
(20:44):
that they've imparted to you.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I guess a little bit further back we talk about Medic
One.
You're in Accent A&E traumacare unit emergency nurse.
Just tell us what is Medic One,because a lot of people have no
idea what this thing is.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
What do they do?
Plus the?
The evolution of, of, uh, outof hospital care now is
unrecognizable.
Now to what?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
it was back then.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
But then there were no paramedics and what Dr Little
had done is that he had decidedthat, rather than because don't
to be disparaging of theactions of ambulance crews back
then and we're talking 1985, itwas pretty much a scoop and run
(21:34):
policy.
You know, you come acrosssomebody who's been injured on
the street, pretty much get themscooped up and get them into
hospital as soon as possible.
But if you've had a cardiacarrest or you've just, you know,
fallen off a building or beenhit by a fast moving car, you
(21:55):
need the best care and you needit immediately.
Yeah, people knew this.
So they purchased a van andkitted it out with all the
emergency gear.
And the van stood outside theemergency department and it was
called Medic 1.
(22:16):
In fact, I'll send you aphotograph of me standing at
Medic One with my uniform on andthe necessary stethoscope
around my neck.
Love it Just give you a laughand it was the only
out-of-hospital emergencyresponse team, I think in
(22:37):
Scotland or the UK.
I think the States were a weebit ahead of that as a notion.
But Keith Little wanted to takethe research room to the people
rather than bring the people tothe research room, and that was
pretty edgy at the time andyou'd be called out to what kind
of events at the time.
(22:58):
And you'd be called out.
To what kind of events, aswe'll come on to.
I ended up down at Lockerbiebecause I was rostered as the
Medic 1 staff nurse on that day.
But the more usual use of Medic1 would be either cardiac
(23:19):
arrest I remember one occasionwhere a guy was stabbed in the
heart.
So really just absoluteemergencies that they don't have
time to go, and drive out there, pick him up and bring him back
.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
You have to bring the hospital to them.
Very severe car crashes.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Really bad car crashes don't have time to go
and drive out there pick them upand bring them back.
You have to bring the hospitalto them.
Very severe car crashes, reallybad car crashes.
We've got a lot of those and itwould be called out only about
three or four times a week.
It wasn't, you know a dailything.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
A couple of times a day day, but that would be
unusual and, and I guess thatbrings us on to there was
thankfully something like medicone on the day of the, the
lockerby bombing um and I don'tknow if you can just take us
through and we were coming on tothe main chunk of the story
(24:19):
here but just take it from everysingle moment, from the start
of that day until everything.
Just tell us how it went.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
It was 21st of December 1988, your Auntie
Irene's birthday, and don't youforget it.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Don't I forget it, never have, never will.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
And I'd got a big bunch of flowers.
They were sitting in one of thesinks in the back room of the
emergency department.
I was on a back shift which waskind of one o'clock in the
afternoon until nine o'clock atnight.
I was on for Medic One.
I was the Medic One guy.
So if Medic One got called out,the routine was that the most
(25:04):
senior doctor, a junior doctorand the rostered staff nurse
would go out as the Medic Oneteam and we would all jump in
this vehicle and head out towhatever it was.
And it was an unremarkable day.
(25:25):
The the phone went in the areathat I was working in.
The phone went and it must havebeen about the phone went and
it must have been about between7.15 and 7.30 that night.
One of that certain emergencydoctors I think he was from
Dublin but he was a notoriousprankster and it was him on the
(25:49):
phone and I answered the phonecall.
I said, right, tony, I don'tknow what you're going to do
with this piece of information,but it's important.
And I said, okay, let's hear it.
Tony, I don't know what you'regoing to do with this piece of
information, but it's important.
And I said, okay, yeah, let'shear it.
You know, I think I came downwith yesterday's rain.
Anyway, I've just been watchingthe Channel 4 news and there's
(26:10):
something flashed up saying thatthere's been a jumbogenic crash
in the Scottish borders, youknow.
And I said where you go, youknow, not falling for that old
chestnut, you know.
And I remember he said in thecoldest tones that really caused
(26:31):
me to snap to attention.
He said, Tony, if you never,ever, believe me about anything,
ever again, believe me now.
Wow, yeah, yeah, I absolutelystopped him in the tracks.
Dr Little I mentioned earlierwas in the department at the
(26:54):
time, for a good thing.
I used to call him the boss,because that's what you do and
he's the boss.
And he was standing chatting toone of the senior sisters
outside his office and I sawthem standing there and I
thought, well, I'm just going togo and tell them and we can
(27:14):
discuss what we do about it.
Anyway, in the boss's officewas a red telephone.
You know the old-fashionedtelephones with the dials on
them, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
the rotary phones, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, bright red sat at his desk and it was the
hotline literally to LothianBorders Police Headquarters.
Wow, and it was there, for youknow speed of communication.
If something serious was goingdown, this was how the police
would contact the NE Departmentand it had never rang.
(27:52):
They didn't use it.
None of the staff could everremember the red telephone
ringing.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
So I walked up to Keith Little and Maggie White
was the name of his seniorsister and I said to them pretty
much what Chris had said to me.
I said to them Liz, I don'tknow what to make of this, but
you're as well hearing it whenit goes from here.
I don't know what to make ofthis, but you're as well hearing
it when it goes from here, Idon't know, I said, but I've
just spoken to Chris Luke.
He says that he's heard on theChannel 4 News that a jumbo jet
(28:27):
has crashed in the borders.
And they both looked at me asif I was daft.
And then the phone rang.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Wow, so Channel 4 News knew before anybody else.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Well, I'm not sure how that happened, but that was
a sequence of events.
So I'm thinking it would maybetake the police 10 or 15 minutes
to try and get their headaround before they picked up
their red phone.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
But I remember the three of us standing out in the
corridor turning towards theringing phone with look,
absolute astonishment on the onour faces yeah, oh geez and of
course the boss answered thephone and he was.
What I had just said to him wasconfirmed by the police and they
(29:20):
were requesting that Medic 1was mobilised because they were
not sure what was going on.
But they knew it was big andyou might think Scottish Borders
is a good old distance fromEdinburgh, but you've been to
our home.
It's 30 miles south ofEdinburgh and Lockerbie's maybe
(29:44):
another 40 miles on from that.
So geographically it was rightin the middle of cities that
could respond Carlisle,newcastle, glasgow, edinburgh,
manchester Stretch so we wereactually in pole position but we
were also the onlyout-of-hospital response team.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
None of those other major cities had anything.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
My recollection is no , they hadn't.
Wow, but I think why the policewere so interested in us was
because we had our vehicle thathad all our emergency kit
already loaded onto it.
And there were also boxes inthe NE department which were the
major incident boxes and inthat were emergency supplies in
(30:30):
the event of a major incidentand they were boxes packed full
of intravenous fluids andbandages and airways.
You know, you can imagine, yeah, so that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
So you load up the van Get all off yeah.
So it was you.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Keith, yeah me, keith , little.
So how it panned out wasn't?
The standard response would bewe'd all jump in the van, mm-hmm
, and that wasn't going to begood enough, because we were
talking Lockerbie here and itwas a few-year-old driveway.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
What time of day is this again?
This is evening, right?
It's night time.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, it's half past seven in the evening.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, it's dark.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, it was dark, cold.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
it was dark, cold wintery night and a horrible
night yeah yeah, that was sortof blowing a gale and rain and
hail and all sorts.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, it was really, really unpleasant and, of course
, in true fashion, we had allthe emergency gear, but we
didn't have a box that hadextreme weather clothing for the
staff in it.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Oh jeez, you just had your overalls and whatever you
brought from the street Wet, wet, wet.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Oh jeez, a coat over the top.
So we were woefully unpreparedfor the weather.
But the police quickly came upwith a plan, and that was to
divide a medic one team in two,because obviously we weren't
going to send a skeleton crewthere was two consultants, two
registrars and two nurses went.
(32:07):
Three nurses went and KeithLittle and Dave Steedman were
two of the doctors, and MaggieWhite decided that they would
travel by helicopter.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
That's brave.
That's brave in those kind ofweather.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
In the weather?
Yeah, and the other half of theteam would be taken down in a
police traffic car.
You know a high-speed roadjourney.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, what about the van, but you need the van with
all the gear, right?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Well no, the van was an old Bedford van Chris.
It had a top speed of about 60.
We had the full expectationthat one of the wheels would
come off.
There was no money in this kindof stuff at the time.
It was cutting edge, but it was.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
It's a shoestring thing.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yes, very much, very much.
So we took the gear out ofMedic 1, apportioned it between
the two teams, got the majorincident boxes out, apportioned
them between the two teams.
And I don't know if you knowwhere the old Royal Infirmary is
in Edinburgh.
It's at the top of a pathcalled Middle Meadow Walk and
(33:24):
there's a big path in the middleof Edinburgh called the Meadows
and it seems within 15 minutesor so it may have taken longer,
I don't think significantlylonger a helicopter had landed
in the meadows and our portersand whatnot reeled all the
(33:45):
equipment down to the helicopterand by this time a white police
Range Rover pulled up, you know, in clouds of blue smoke at the
door, and we chucked those ofus who went by car, chucked our
gear in as much as we could getin the back of the Range Rover
(34:06):
and we jumped in.
So there was me and Lorna Sloan,both nurses.
There was Colin Robertson whowas one of the A&E consultants
and a guy called Steve Cusack, aDubliner, who was an A&E
registrar.
But there would be a seniordoctor who was usually in
(34:27):
training or recently qualifiedas a trauma expert.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Gotcha.
So you guys all bundle in thepolice, Range Rover gear in hand
.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
And then what were you?
Obviously it's a long, it'sprobably an hour and a half, two
hours something like that yes,drive.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Well, it would have been, but the the police driver
and I remember your nickname waswas Titch, because he wasn't
very tall.
But boy, that boy was somedriver, let me tell you.
(35:08):
I don't think he did below 100miles an hour at any point.
And you know what a range roveris like.
I know because your father,yeah, I mean, you're all about
them, you know.
But this guy is flinging thisRange Rover around corners and
roundabouts and he quite rightlydecided that the quickest way
to get to Lockerbie was not totake the small roads down
(35:28):
through the borders which you'refamiliar with.
He said we take the M8 toGlasgow and then we take the M74
south, and that's the route,because you can just pelt it
Absolutely, absolutely.
And that's the route.
Oh, because you can just peltit Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, and that's what he did.
Bizarrely, because of theweather conditions, the team
that left in the helicopterdidn't arrive until after we
(35:49):
arrived.
We were quicker Wow by road,wow Than the helicopter had been
in the storm that night.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Because the helicopter was probably flying
as a crow flies.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah, absolutely, and you guys had a detour.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And what was that car ride, like that must have been,
it was crazy, it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
It was terrifying on a lot of levels.
So we were scared about what wewere going to, because by this
time some information Was comingthrough it was a jumbo jet and
it was really bad.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
That's all you had.
It was really bad.
Yeah, that was it.
Yeah, jeez.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
We had no details whatsoever, we didn't have
numbers or anything, but wethought a passenger jumbo jet,
it was going to be carnage.
We knew that and we wereterrified, you know.
And so there was a, thephysical terror of hurtling
(36:47):
through the night and this whitetorpedo ridden by a, a wee
freddie merkin, which was badenough, but we were also trying
to reassure each other.
Actually, if we stick totraining, then we can do our
best here.
(37:07):
And it's always the biggestchallenge that an accident,
emergency or a trauma nurse ordoctor has is when you bite off
the big one.
Have you got what it takes?
And I think we all felt thatthis was the biggest one ever
(37:29):
and we didn't really know if wecould function, you know, in
these circumstances or not sothere was a lot of personal
reassurance going on.
Some of the discussion was ledby Colin Robertson, the
consultant, and he was quitekeen to focus us on our
priorities of life-saving andwhilst we had seen a lot of
(37:56):
trauma between the lot of us andseen a lot of death, we'd never
seen anything on this scale.
I don't think there's anythingto prepare you for that, except
what Colin Robertson was rightlysaying was remember the basics
of resuscitation.
Let's not change what we knowbecause actually, more than ever
, this is the time we need it.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, basics.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, so that was all going on.
When said driver missed theturn off for a while 100 miles
an hour, and I'm notexaggerating saying that
realised his mistake, jammed onthe brakes and pulled the
handbrake.
What, what?
Jammed on the brakes and pulledthe handbrake, what?
(38:43):
Put the car around veryexpertly, 180 degrees and then
floored it and shot back up thewrong way up the motorway until
he got back to the front.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
You know it was very exciting.
You went adrenaline, you gotyour adrenaline.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Absolutely Coming out our ears, you know Jeez.
And so we were passing aminibus full of coppers, full of
police officers who had beenscrambled from Glasgow and were
heading down the M74 in aminivan, and so our guy wound
(39:30):
his window down.
The passenger side front windowgot wound down, said Freddy,
pulled the Range Rover overright beside the police van and
the driver of the van had woundhis window down.
And we got an updated accountof what was going on by two
(39:50):
police officers shouting at eachother at 100 miles an hour
going down two lanes of amotorway.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I thought you'd stopped.
You were still driving 100miles an hour, shouting each
other into the window.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
What's going on?
It's bad.
Hundreds of people fires, youknow.
So we generally got the gist ofit.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
So you were building a pretty clear picture of what
you were heading into by thispoint.
This is bad.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Really bad, and when we arrived at Lockerbie we could
actually see, from a weedistance away, fires burning.
Like a few miles out kind ofthing and of course, in the
course of the journey we'dalready had this discussion that
our biggest danger is going tobe a aircraft fuel, because it's
(40:47):
going to be a pretty full loadof of great fuel or would have
been involved for anyone whodoesn't know it.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
The lock could be.
Flight was taking off from londLondon and going to.
New York is that right?
So it'd only been in the airfor about 40 minutes.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yeah, it took off at 25 past six that evening from
Heathrow and it went missingfrom the radar at two minutes
past seven that evening, sothat's how long it had been in
the air.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
So it was filled almost to the brim with jet fuel
, Fuel and people as it turnedout and people.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
And so we'd already had this discussion of a highly
dangerous situation of havingall this fuel.
This time they didn't reallyknow if the plane had crashed
intact, if you like, or a crashlanding that had gone wrong, or
what it was.
So we're trying to supposewhere all the dangers were
(41:52):
coming from, but that wascertainly one of them we
actually arrived at.
If you look up other accountsof this, you'll see that an
engine and a wing I think a wingas well landed on some houses,
I think at Sherwood Crescent inLockerbie, and two or three
(42:13):
houses completely disappeared.
There was a massive crater,houses were on fire, crater
houses were on fire, cars wereon fire on the motorway, there
was debris everywhere, and thisis what we arrived at and it was
almost apocalyptic.
It was something I actuallycouldn't have imagined.
(42:36):
It looked like a film set, youknow, and there was firemen were
trying to put out some of thefires couldn't have imagined.
It looked like a film set, yeah,you know, and there was.
Firemen were trying to preparesome of the fires.
There was no casualties to beseen, which was really our only
interest that and staying aliveand a fire officer came over and
said there's nothing here foryou If you go back up into
(43:00):
Lockerbie.
The police had set up aheadquarters, you know, like a
mobile headquarters, yeah, andso go back into Lockerbie and
find that.
That's the only advice I cangive you.
But that wasn't before.
We had pulled a very quick stopand we'd all jumped out with
our cases, our Medic, one cases,and I don't mind telling you, I
(43:24):
was terrified, I absolutelybottled it, and then I realised
that everybody else had as well,because it was a scene that I
can't imagine.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
So we said right, okay.
So we gathered ourselves andgot back in the car and were
taken into Lockerbie town itselfand by this time there was some
order starting to emerge.
There was a smell of fuel.
It was running down the gutters.
(44:02):
Oh really it was insane.
There was wreckage lying around, there were some bodies to be
seen, you know.
So like we knew that from wherethe houses had been flattened.
If there wasn't any casualtiesin these houses they'd be so, so
lucky.
But in fact you also knewthere'd be nothing to be found
(44:24):
of them, just crushed yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
So is it.
The first casualties you sawwere not the locals.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Well, my recollection is there are some forms to be
seen lying on the ground whichwe took to be bodies, but we
didn't look at those becauseothers had, you know, the local
ambulance man at a place andeverybody would start to man up.
(44:57):
Don't get me wrong.
This wasn't a limited responsein any way whatsoever.
Every response within a radiusof 50 miles was legging it
towards Lockerbie.
No doubt about that.
It was a massive response and amassive response was required.
But there was complete chaos.
The ambulance service didn't, Ithink at that point, have a
(45:19):
centre set up.
The police did and the firebrigade did, but I don't think
they were talking to each othermeaningfully at that point.
Everybody's absolutely doingtheir best in the most palatable
circumstances.
Bedlam, absolute bedlam, andall you could really do is react
(45:42):
to what you were told with thecapacity that you had.
You know.
So we were going to set upemergency ward 10 somewhere, you
know.
So you're just reacting to whatwas going on.
So we were standing outside therange which was outside the
police the police, I think,emergency van or whatever it was
(46:06):
they had when a car pulled upand it was a local GP and he
said he had just driven over thehill and he said that he saw
some white debris on top of thehill, which we now know as
Thundergarth Hill.
And he saw some white debris upthere and Colin Robertson, who
(46:33):
was in charge of us, made thedecision to say right, okay, you
get back in your car and takeus there.
Because, if there's debris upthere, there's going to be
passengers.
Other things yeah passengers.
And that's what happened.
The GP jumped in his car,started heading back up this
(46:56):
narrow wee road, going up a hilljust outside Lockerbie, with us
behind him and a couple ofambulances who had tumbled onto
the fact that we were the medicone team and that we were doing
something.
They thought having a bit ofthat, and that's how it happened
.
And it was more.
It wasn't any more complex thanthat.
(47:16):
People just were looking to seewhat they could meaningfully do
and that was no moresophisticated than that.
We had no idea what we weregoing to, no idea.
Anyway, we got to the top ofthis hill and the GP stopped his
car and he pointed over thisdry-stained dike into this field
(47:40):
and sure enough, we could pickout some debris there.
So the field gate was openedand our vehicle was the first in
, and it was a Range Rover whichwas perfectly suited to the
terrain.
It was absolutely fine.
Headlights were on full beam.
As we turned into this field andwhat we saw was in the arc of
(48:09):
light imagine, a wide arc of afull beam Range Rover, green
grass.
It hadn't been snowing, thegrass was green and there were
sheep, lots of sheep.
And as the vehicle turned roundand the light, and this was the
only light that we had, becausethere was no street lights or
anything.
We were on a hill and, as itturned round, what I saw was was
(48:34):
grass and sheep, grass andsheep cockpit of a jumbo jet and
sheep and grass and sheepCockpit of a jumbo jet Lying on
its side in the field right infront of us All right, that is
where we're going to leave itfor part one of this episode.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Part two will be available next Monday, so please
subscribe now so you don't missout.
And in that episode, tony takesus through the rest of his
Lockerbie experience and hislater career shift into criminal
law and some of the amazing andgrisly murder cases he was
working on.
He also reflects on his manyjobs and shares some great
advice for anyone interested insimilar paths.
A huge thanks to Tony fortaking the time to share his
(49:25):
story with us and a huge thanksto you for listening.
For photos, links and moreabout this episode, head to
knowordinarymondaycom and lookfor the episodes page.
You can also find us on oursocials Facebook, instagram,
LinkedIn and more.
You can find all them at noOrdinary Monday on Linktree.
Come and join the conversationand if you enjoyed this episode,
(49:49):
please do two really quickthings Give us a five-star
rating review and tell a friend.
That's it.
It really helps us grow theshow, attract more amazing
guests and inspire new listeners.
This episode was produced,hosted and edited by me, chris
Barron.
Thank you all for listening.
Hope you enjoyed the episodeand have a great Monday everyone
(50:09):
.
It's 7.30pm on December 21st 1988.
It was a cold and stormy nightin Edinburgh, scotland.
It was a pretty typical eveningin the emergency department.
That was until the redemergency phone rings.
It's the first time the redphone has ever rung.
It's the police and the news isutterly shocking A jumbo jet
(00:27):
has crashed in the town ofLockerbie.
Hundreds of people are feareddead and Tony Bonner, a trauma
nurse for the Rapid ResponseUnit, medic 1, is ordered
straight to the crash to searchfor survivors with his team.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And we were terrified .
You know, the biggest challengethat an accident, emergency or
a trauma nurse or doctor has iswhen you bite off the big one.
Have you got what it takes?
And I think we all felt thatthis was the biggest one ever
and we didn't really know if wecould function in these
(01:08):
circumstances or not.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
As they searched Lockerbie out of the darkness, a
mangled cockpit of a jumbo jetappeared lying in a field filled
with sheep.
This was a night that Tonywouldn't soon forget.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of no Ordinary Monday.
(01:36):
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I am your host, chris Barron,and each week I sit down with a
guest whose job is far fromordinary.
We'll explore how they gotthere, what it's really like
behind the scenes, and thenthey'll reveal the single most
unforgettable experience oftheir career.
In today's episode I'm joinedby someone who was actually one
(01:57):
of the initial inspirations forthis podcast.
Tony Bonner has a fascinatingand twisting career journey from
seminary school to psychiatricnursing, to becoming a criminal
prosecutor later in life andfull disclosure.
He is also my uncle.
Tony's unforgettable storyhappened in December 1988.
(02:19):
At the time he was part ofMedic 1, which is Scotland's
legendary rapid response traumaunit.
That night he and the team werecalled to one of the worst air
disasters in history theLockerbie bombing.
So in this two part episode,tony vividly recounts his
Lockerbie story for the firsttime on record and reveals how
(02:41):
his career shifted after thatreally extraordinary experience.
Please subscribe now so youdon't miss out when part two
comes out next week.
With all that said, I am superexcited to bring you guys this
story You're listening to.
No Ordinary Monday, let's getinto the show.
(03:06):
All right, tony Bonner, welcome,welcome.
Thank you so much for takingthe time today.
How are you doing?
Good thanks, good, yeah, good.
Well, I want to thank you fortaking the time for this podcast
.
It's fantastic to have youbecause I know that.
You know, what's great for meis that you're my uncle, so we I
(03:26):
know you're a wee bit.
I know you've got a fascinatingtale, especially when it comes
to the jobs you've done before.
You know, I think you know.
Just to list off a few things,you know you were there at the
locker b uh first response tolocker b bombing, which a lot of
people will be very familiarwith.
You went on to have an entirelynew career after that, being a
(03:48):
broker, fiscal or a what do youcall it for, a more
international term for that?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
A district attorney would be the American equivalent
, but just a prosecutor.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So a criminal lawyer, a criminal prosecutor?
Yes, so you've had afascinating career and I think
that's what's brilliant, is thathopefully we can cover a bit of
ground and you can share a bitwith that for us.
So I guess where I want tostart is right at the beginning.
What did you want to be whenyou grew up?
(04:23):
Obviously, looking back now, itwas maybe a little bit
different when you were seven oreight.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I'll tell you the absolute honest truth, chris.
I didn't have a first idea whatI wanted to do.
My childhood was interrupted bywhen I was 11.
My parents sent me to aseminary, which was a
preparatory college, to become aCatholic priest from a Catholic
(04:53):
family.
And I was only 11 and I wasaway from home for the next
three and a half years, whichwere all kind of my formative
years.
They took me out of high schoolat the end of second year and
dropped me back in it at thestart of sixth year, and so my
(05:16):
formative years were strange.
So I probably had more jokes inLatin than I did in anything
else, which was a sad admission.
But it meant that I arrived inhigh school at the age of 17 and
I didn't have a clue aboutanything Girls, careers, nothing
(05:38):
Up until that point, it was avery religious trajectory, yeah.
But the bizarre thing about it Iwas pretty sure I was an
evangelical atheist by the timeI was 15.
And I knew deep down insidethat I wasn't good priest
material as a consequence butthat's kind of a tough thing to
(06:02):
tell your parents.
My parents, my grandparents,took a lot of pride in the fact
that I was at seminary.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
So you didn't have a choice.
You didn't have a choice in thematter.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Well, you know my parents might say well, you know
, you chose to go, but no11-year-old chooses something
like that.
I don't think, and I certainlydidn't.
When did I decide what I wantedto do with my life?
Actually, I can't think of anypoint where I I had a
determination to do a specificthing interesting so you went in
(06:35):
11 and then you said by 15.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
you knew you were an evangelical atheist and you and
you had to keep up the charadefor a while, did you?
Yes, I did, yes, I did.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
But I eventually told my parents.
It came as no surprise to mydad.
My dad was a hard-working carmechanic but he was a good judge
of people and he knew that Iwas doing this for them, not for
me.
And they also knew that I woulddo anything to get out of
having to go to the church.
And they also knew that I woulddo anything to get out of
having to go to the church,which really was a parter for
(07:09):
ten, Chris.
I think even a casual observerwould have decided I wasn't the
one.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
So you basically kept up the charade, but then at
some point did you came clean ordid you just get to a point?
Because I think, seminaryschool, basically what happens
is you join seminary school andthen you're on a trajectory for
priesthood, essentially for therest of your life.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I was.
I was the one that all myfriends at seminary felt was the
one most likely to make it allthe way.
What's?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
all the way Priesthood.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, yeah, I mean Michael Bifter.
I knew inside myself and Ithink my close I still have two
friends from back then, twoclose friends from back then and
I think they knew pretty muchthat I wasn't, that my heart
wasn't in it, my intellectwasn't in it, my intellect
(08:06):
wasn't in it, it didn't work forme on any level whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So when I decided to leave, and so you kind of landed
in high school, 17 or so, andnot a Scooby, just not a.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Scooby.
And so what happened?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
you finished school, and then what was the trajectory
?
And not a scooby, not a scooby.
And so what happened?
You finished school, and thenwhat was the trajectory from
there?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Listen, I would love to describe to you some gently
and emerging vocation in life,but I can't.
My mum was a psychiatric nurseat the time and she worked in
the local psychiatric hospitalnear where we lived.
(08:52):
And I got a job a summer job asa nursing assistant in this
psychiatric hospital because Ineeded some money.
I wanted to buy a bass guitarbecause I thought it looked cool
.
I couldn't play it, you know,these are details.
So I got a summer job and I gotmy bass guitar and went back to
(09:18):
finish the next year at schooland got a summer job again and
my mum said well, you're prettygood at this.
She reckoned, why don't youapply to become a student nurse,
student psychiatric nurse?
So I just kind of fell into it.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I mean, what did that summer job entail as a
psychiatric nurse?
What were you getting up to?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, as a care assistant were you getting up to
?
As a care assistant you wouldbe attached to a ward in the
hospital the ones I can remember.
There was one full ofunfortunate men who had
Alzheimer's and such, and then Iworked in a ward which had some
(10:08):
people of limited mentalability and a wide range of
social skills or lack thereof.
So you just really spent allday trying to organise their
lives, you know.
But I didn't find itparticularly challenging.
(10:30):
I thought it was.
You know, I could do it.
There are a lot of people whocan't do it, you know.
So I suppose I had a head startand certainly they took me on
as a student nurse in the SouthLothian College of Nursing and
Midwifery, Took me on straightaway.
So I found myself a qualifiedpsychiatric nurse working in
(10:55):
Edinburgh without actuallythinking that I'd made any
decision to arrive there at all.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
That's crazy Interesting.
And then you've I mean I'm surethat being a nurse, you know
you've got.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
you've probably got some fascinating tales, I'm sure
, from all over so at the brightold age of 21 I might have been
22 I'd find myself workingshifts in the Royal Edinburgh
Hospital, had a locked ward andbecause I was a staff nurse at
(11:36):
this point, fully qualifiedpsychiatric nurse, I had a badge
telling everybody that I wasfully qualified and in fact I
didn't have a first idea of whatI was doing.
But I would find myself incharge of this locked ward in
the Royal Edinburgh Hospital andit had 15 beds and the most
disturbed people in Edinburgh,male and female, were all locked
(12:01):
up in the same ward at the sametime and you can imagine it's
not a recipe for peace and quiet.
Were all locked up in the sameward at the same time and you
can imagine it's not a recipefor peace and quiet.
I can remember a couple ofsituations where one poor chap
(12:21):
was in who was labouring underthe belief that he was Jesus
Christ and whilst he was quitemad, unfortunately that
afternoon another Jesus Christgot admitted and you can imagine
none of them were so bereft ofknowledge of the Bible and how
(12:44):
the story should have gone, butboth of them were pretty sure
there could only be one JesusChrist.
What would that be?
The other was obviously animposter and must be disposed of
forthwith.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Oh wow, so there was a battle of the Jesuses.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
There's no doubt about it, and I remember I was
in the.
The deuteron was the one end ofa long corridor and door into
the ward was at the other, andwe were having a lively day, as
was pretty usual, when thissecond guy was brought in and
what he'd done is he'd taken awhite bed sheet and cut a hole
out the middle and the doorswung open and this guy was
(13:23):
standing at the far end of thecorridor with his arms out
welcoming his flock, and Iremember just thinking it was
almost like a mirage orsomething, or like a
hallucination, that a celestialfigure had just turned up at the
far end of the world.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Anyway, it all kicked off after that when they led
Jesus on, but then that I guessin a place like that you've
probably got to not always go bythe book.
You've got to find your ownsolutions a lot of the time.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Right yeah, you've just got to just get own
solutions a lot of the time,right?
Yeah, you've just got to justget through the day.
You know, whatever you know,there's a lot of serious
analysis going on of people'spsychiatric conditions and stuff
, but actually you spent the dayjust trying to keep the peace.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
You started on this track of almost being a priest,
fell into psychiatric nurse,absolutely Medic one, and then
kind of just give us a veryquick version of the entire
thing up until today, just togive us a very abbreviated
version of things.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So the word that I've described was known as the
intensive psychiatric care unit,and I decided that once I'd
done that, I probably didn'twant to go into any other part
of psychiatry.
Was known as the IntensivePsychiatric Care Unit, and I
decided that once I'd done that,I probably didn't want to go
into any other part ofpsychiatry.
So I applied to do my generalnursing, which was a
qualification.
I would need to work in ageneral hospital and I always
(14:53):
had my eye on accident andemergency as being somewhere.
I wanted to work, but my firstjob what was that?
Accident and emergency as beingsomewhere.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I wanted to work.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
What is that?
It will become obvious to you,I'm a bit of an adrenaline
junkie actually.
I like challenges in fastmoving situations.
Life and death, Certainly that.
And I think a year and a halfleading up to that I worked in
(15:22):
anaesthetics and intensive carein the Western General Hospital
in Edinburgh and that was apretty exciting job as well.
But accident and emergency wasespecially in Edinburgh at the
time was a cutting edge oftrauma care and I just wanted to
be part of it, wanted to testmyself in these difficult
(15:43):
environment, very difficultenvironment it's.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
it's really interesting because some people
I guess if you interviewed a lotof people in the medical
industry, they might say oh, youknow, I got into this because I
wanted to take care of people,or you know, I wanted to try and
help the world, or whatever.
But you know that might be partof your answer, but really it's
like you just wanted a thrill.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
You wanted something that got your heart rate going.
That reflects really badly onme.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
No, no.
What I'm saying is that Ireckon that you're not the only
one.
I reckon that's the stockanswer for a lot of people, but
it might not be.
The actual, true answer is whatI was getting at, you know,
because it is an exciting placeto be.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yes, it is, but but also you know, like the fuller
answer would be.
I knew I was able to work inthese environments, I knew I'd
be okay and and the mainmotivating factor was you make
the difference between peoplesurviving and not surviving.
(16:44):
So a large part of it was adesire to provide public service
to I don't want to be overbiblical about it, but you know
to help your little man at atime where they really needed
somebody to keep their shittogether.
And I was quite sure I was thatguy.
(17:06):
You know, and there are lotslike me it's not just me, but
you know, I knew it would be achallenging environment and I
knew I could work there and Iknew that there would be times
where that would make thedifference between people who I
didn't know living and dying.
So that was a part of it waswas to care for people in
(17:30):
difficult circumstances and how?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
how did you handle it ?
I guess there's always thefirst time someone dies on the
table or near you, or because ofyou potentially.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
What was?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
it like the first time.
How was that?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Listen, I'm happy to put on the record that I don't
think I've actually ever killedanybody.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Well, that would put you in a difficult position with
your later career.
Well, that would put you in adifficult position with your
later career.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
But there were times that there was nothing you could
do to save somebody and I foundthat difficult Because it was
kind of Almost like a rejectionof your skills and abilities To
actually lose somebody.
Because actually the people Iworked with and I worked with
(18:21):
some of the best trauma surgeonsand nurses, I think, anywhere
in the world and we fancied ourchances of saving everybody.
So when the time came and itdidn't happen, we were all
gutted, you gutted.
We were pretty much devastated.
We'd become introspective, kindof look at our performance,
(18:45):
almost like a post-matchanalysis of what had happened.
But that's because we felt it.
We felt that actually we'd letsomebody down, whereas in fact I
don't think anybody.
If we couldn't save anybody, Idon't think it was possible to
save them.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Do you remember the first time?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I can't really, because I've seen a lot of death
in both of my careers andthere's nothing terribly
memorable about it.
People can die quietly and justlook like they're sleeping, and
people can die because they'vejust been hit by a bus and they
(19:33):
look dramatically different, butnothing really sticks.
No individual sticks in my mind.
I can't remember the first time.
I think the first dead person Isaw was my grandfather when I
was about 13.
And then when I started, I sawsome people dying when I did my
(19:59):
psychiatry and again when I didintensive care.
It was actually quite a usualfeature of your day that
somebody wouldn't make it.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You're talking about the amount of death that you've
witnessed at that time.
That's obviously a low point,but what are the high points in
that job?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, the high points were working with an amazing
group of people and you all hadyour eyes on the prize.
Everybody wanted the exact sameoutcome.
You learn how to do somethingthat's really difficult with the
very best.
It becomes easier because ofthe skills and the knowledge
(20:44):
that they've imparted to you.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I guess a little bit further back we talk about Medic
One.
You're in Accent A&E traumacare unit emergency nurse.
Just tell us what is Medic One,because a lot of people have no
idea what this thing is.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
What do they do?
Plus the?
The evolution of, of, uh, outof hospital care now is
unrecognizable.
Now to what?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
it was back then.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
But then there were no paramedics and what Dr Little
had done is that he had decidedthat, rather than because don't
to be disparaging of theactions of ambulance crews back
then and we're talking 1985, itwas pretty much a scoop and run
(21:34):
policy.
You know, you come acrosssomebody who's been injured on
the street, pretty much get themscooped up and get them into
hospital as soon as possible.
But if you've had a cardiacarrest or you've just, you know,
fallen off a building or beenhit by a fast moving car, you
(21:55):
need the best care and you needit immediately.
Yeah, people knew this.
So they purchased a van andkitted it out with all the
emergency gear.
And the van stood outside theemergency department and it was
called Medic 1.
(22:16):
In fact, I'll send you aphotograph of me standing at
Medic One with my uniform on andthe necessary stethoscope
around my neck.
Love it Just give you a laughand it was the only
out-of-hospital emergencyresponse team, I think in
(22:37):
Scotland or the UK.
I think the States were a weebit ahead of that as a notion.
But Keith Little wanted to takethe research room to the people
rather than bring the people tothe research room, and that was
pretty edgy at the time andyou'd be called out to what kind
of events at the time.
(22:58):
And you'd be called out.
To what kind of events, aswe'll come on to.
I ended up down at Lockerbiebecause I was rostered as the
Medic 1 staff nurse on that day.
But the more usual use of Medic1 would be either cardiac
(23:19):
arrest I remember one occasionwhere a guy was stabbed in the
heart.
So really just absoluteemergencies that they don't have
time to go, and drive out there, pick him up and bring him back
.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
You have to bring the hospital to them.
Very severe car crashes.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Really bad car crashes don't have time to go
and drive out there pick them upand bring them back.
You have to bring the hospitalto them.
Very severe car crashes, reallybad car crashes.
We've got a lot of those and itwould be called out only about
three or four times a week.
It wasn't, you know a dailything.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
A couple of times a day day, but that would be
unusual and, and I guess thatbrings us on to there was
thankfully something like medicone on the day of the, the
lockerby bombing um and I don'tknow if you can just take us
through and we were coming on tothe main chunk of the story
(24:19):
here but just take it from everysingle moment, from the start
of that day until everything.
Just tell us how it went.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
It was 21st of December 1988, your Auntie
Irene's birthday, and don't youforget it.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Don't I forget it, never have, never will.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
And I'd got a big bunch of flowers.
They were sitting in one of thesinks in the back room of the
emergency department.
I was on a back shift which waskind of one o'clock in the
afternoon until nine o'clock atnight.
I was on for Medic One.
I was the Medic One guy.
So if Medic One got called out,the routine was that the most
(25:04):
senior doctor, a junior doctorand the rostered staff nurse
would go out as the Medic Oneteam and we would all jump in
this vehicle and head out towhatever it was.
And it was an unremarkable day.
(25:25):
The the phone went in the areathat I was working in.
The phone went and it must havebeen about the phone went and
it must have been about between7.15 and 7.30 that night.
One of that certain emergencydoctors I think he was from
Dublin but he was a notoriousprankster and it was him on the
(25:49):
phone and I answered the phonecall.
I said, right, tony, I don'tknow what you're going to do
with this piece of information,but it's important.
And I said, okay, let's hear it.
Tony, I don't know what you'regoing to do with this piece of
information, but it's important.
And I said, okay, yeah, let'shear it.
You know, I think I came downwith yesterday's rain.
Anyway, I've just been watchingthe Channel 4 news and there's
(26:10):
something flashed up saying thatthere's been a jumbogenic crash
in the Scottish borders, youknow.
And I said where you go, youknow, not falling for that old
chestnut, you know.
And I remember he said in thecoldest tones that really caused
(26:31):
me to snap to attention.
He said, Tony, if you never,ever, believe me about anything,
ever again, believe me now.
Wow, yeah, yeah, I absolutelystopped him in the tracks.
Dr Little I mentioned earlierwas in the department at the
(26:54):
time, for a good thing.
I used to call him the boss,because that's what you do and
he's the boss.
And he was standing chatting toone of the senior sisters
outside his office and I sawthem standing there and I
thought, well, I'm just going togo and tell them and we can
(27:14):
discuss what we do about it.
Anyway, in the boss's officewas a red telephone.
You know the old-fashionedtelephones with the dials on
them, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
the rotary phones, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, bright red sat at his desk and it was the
hotline literally to LothianBorders Police Headquarters.
Wow, and it was there, for youknow speed of communication.
If something serious was goingdown, this was how the police
would contact the NE Departmentand it had never rang.
(27:52):
They didn't use it.
None of the staff could everremember the red telephone
ringing.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
So I walked up to Keith Little and Maggie White
was the name of his seniorsister and I said to them pretty
much what Chris had said to me.
I said to them Liz, I don'tknow what to make of this, but
you're as well hearing it whenit goes from here.
I don't know what to make ofthis, but you're as well hearing
it when it goes from here, Idon't know, I said, but I've
just spoken to Chris Luke.
He says that he's heard on theChannel 4 News that a jumbo jet
(28:27):
has crashed in the borders.
And they both looked at me asif I was daft.
And then the phone rang.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Wow, so Channel 4 News knew before anybody else.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Well, I'm not sure how that happened, but that was
a sequence of events.
So I'm thinking it would maybetake the police 10 or 15 minutes
to try and get their headaround before they picked up
their red phone.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
But I remember the three of us standing out in the
corridor turning towards theringing phone with look,
absolute astonishment on the onour faces yeah, oh geez and of
course the boss answered thephone and he was.
What I had just said to him wasconfirmed by the police and they
(29:20):
were requesting that Medic 1was mobilised because they were
not sure what was going on.
But they knew it was big andyou might think Scottish Borders
is a good old distance fromEdinburgh, but you've been to
our home.
It's 30 miles south ofEdinburgh and Lockerbie's maybe
(29:44):
another 40 miles on from that.
So geographically it was rightin the middle of cities that
could respond Carlisle,newcastle, glasgow, edinburgh,
manchester Stretch so we wereactually in pole position but we
were also the onlyout-of-hospital response team.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
None of those other major cities had anything.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
My recollection is no , they hadn't.
Wow, but I think why the policewere so interested in us was
because we had our vehicle thathad all our emergency kit
already loaded onto it.
And there were also boxes inthe NE department which were the
major incident boxes and inthat were emergency supplies in
(30:30):
the event of a major incidentand they were boxes packed full
of intravenous fluids andbandages and airways.
You know, you can imagine, yeah, so that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
So you load up the van Get all off yeah.
So it was you.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Keith, yeah me, keith , little.
So how it panned out wasn't?
The standard response would bewe'd all jump in the van, mm-hmm
, and that wasn't going to begood enough, because we were
talking Lockerbie here and itwas a few-year-old driveway.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
What time of day is this again?
This is evening, right?
It's night time.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, it's half past seven in the evening.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, it's dark.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, it was dark, cold.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
it was dark, cold wintery night and a horrible
night yeah yeah, that was sortof blowing a gale and rain and
hail and all sorts.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, it was really, really unpleasant and, of course
, in true fashion, we had allthe emergency gear, but we
didn't have a box that hadextreme weather clothing for the
staff in it.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Oh jeez, you just had your overalls and whatever you
brought from the street Wet, wet, wet.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Oh jeez, a coat over the top.
So we were woefully unpreparedfor the weather.
But the police quickly came upwith a plan, and that was to
divide a medic one team in two,because obviously we weren't
going to send a skeleton crewthere was two consultants, two
registrars and two nurses went.
(32:07):
Three nurses went and KeithLittle and Dave Steedman were
two of the doctors, and MaggieWhite decided that they would
travel by helicopter.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
That's brave.
That's brave in those kind ofweather.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
In the weather?
Yeah, and the other half of theteam would be taken down in a
police traffic car.
You know a high-speed roadjourney.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, what about the van, but you need the van with
all the gear, right?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Well no, the van was an old Bedford van Chris.
It had a top speed of about 60.
We had the full expectationthat one of the wheels would
come off.
There was no money in this kindof stuff at the time.
It was cutting edge, but it was.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
It's a shoestring thing.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yes, very much, very much.
So we took the gear out ofMedic 1, apportioned it between
the two teams, got the majorincident boxes out, apportioned
them between the two teams.
And I don't know if you knowwhere the old Royal Infirmary is
in Edinburgh.
It's at the top of a pathcalled Middle Meadow Walk and
(33:24):
there's a big path in the middleof Edinburgh called the Meadows
and it seems within 15 minutesor so it may have taken longer,
I don't think significantlylonger a helicopter had landed
in the meadows and our portersand whatnot reeled all the
(33:45):
equipment down to the helicopterand by this time a white police
Range Rover pulled up, you know, in clouds of blue smoke at the
door, and we chucked those ofus who went by car, chucked our
gear in as much as we could getin the back of the Range Rover
(34:06):
and we jumped in.
So there was me and Lorna Sloan,both nurses.
There was Colin Robertson whowas one of the A&E consultants
and a guy called Steve Cusack, aDubliner, who was an A&E
registrar.
But there would be a seniordoctor who was usually in
(34:27):
training or recently qualifiedas a trauma expert.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Gotcha.
So you guys all bundle in thepolice, Range Rover gear in hand
.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
And then what were you?
Obviously it's a long, it'sprobably an hour and a half, two
hours something like that yes,drive.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Well, it would have been, but the the police driver
and I remember your nickname waswas Titch, because he wasn't
very tall.
But boy, that boy was somedriver, let me tell you.
(35:08):
I don't think he did below 100miles an hour at any point.
And you know what a range roveris like.
I know because your father,yeah, I mean, you're all about
them, you know.
But this guy is flinging thisRange Rover around corners and
roundabouts and he quite rightlydecided that the quickest way
to get to Lockerbie was not totake the small roads down
(35:28):
through the borders which you'refamiliar with.
He said we take the M8 toGlasgow and then we take the M74
south, and that's the route,because you can just pelt it
Absolutely, absolutely.
And that's the route.
Oh, because you can just peltit Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, and that's what he did.
Bizarrely, because of theweather conditions, the team
that left in the helicopterdidn't arrive until after we
(35:49):
arrived.
We were quicker Wow by road,wow Than the helicopter had been
in the storm that night.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Because the helicopter was probably flying
as a crow flies.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah, absolutely, and you guys had a detour.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And what was that car ride, like that must have been,
it was crazy, it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
It was terrifying on a lot of levels.
So we were scared about what wewere going to, because by this
time some information Was comingthrough it was a jumbo jet and
it was really bad.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
That's all you had.
It was really bad.
Yeah, that was it.
Yeah, jeez.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
We had no details whatsoever, we didn't have
numbers or anything, but wethought a passenger jumbo jet,
it was going to be carnage.
We knew that and we wereterrified, you know.
And so there was a, thephysical terror of hurtling
(36:47):
through the night and this whitetorpedo ridden by a, a wee
freddie merkin, which was badenough, but we were also trying
to reassure each other.
Actually, if we stick totraining, then we can do our
best here.
(37:07):
And it's always the biggestchallenge that an accident,
emergency or a trauma nurse ordoctor has is when you bite off
the big one.
Have you got what it takes?
And I think we all felt thatthis was the biggest one ever
(37:29):
and we didn't really know if wecould function, you know, in
these circumstances or not sothere was a lot of personal
reassurance going on.
Some of the discussion was ledby Colin Robertson, the
consultant, and he was quitekeen to focus us on our
priorities of life-saving andwhilst we had seen a lot of
(37:56):
trauma between the lot of us andseen a lot of death, we'd never
seen anything on this scale.
I don't think there's anythingto prepare you for that, except
what Colin Robertson was rightlysaying was remember the basics
of resuscitation.
Let's not change what we knowbecause actually, more than ever
, this is the time we need it.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, basics.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, so that was all going on.
When said driver missed theturn off for a while 100 miles
an hour, and I'm notexaggerating saying that
realised his mistake, jammed onthe brakes and pulled the
handbrake.
What, what?
Jammed on the brakes and pulledthe handbrake, what?
(38:43):
Put the car around veryexpertly, 180 degrees and then
floored it and shot back up thewrong way up the motorway until
he got back to the front.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
You know it was very exciting.
You went adrenaline, you gotyour adrenaline.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Absolutely Coming out our ears, you know Jeez.
And so we were passing aminibus full of coppers, full of
police officers who had beenscrambled from Glasgow and were
heading down the M74 in aminivan, and so our guy wound
(39:30):
his window down.
The passenger side front windowgot wound down, said Freddy,
pulled the Range Rover overright beside the police van and
the driver of the van had woundhis window down.
And we got an updated accountof what was going on by two
(39:50):
police officers shouting at eachother at 100 miles an hour
going down two lanes of amotorway.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I thought you'd stopped.
You were still driving 100miles an hour, shouting each
other into the window.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
What's going on?
It's bad.
Hundreds of people fires, youknow.
So we generally got the gist ofit.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
So you were building a pretty clear picture of what
you were heading into by thispoint.
This is bad.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Really bad, and when we arrived at Lockerbie we could
actually see, from a weedistance away, fires burning.
Like a few miles out kind ofthing and of course, in the
course of the journey we'dalready had this discussion that
our biggest danger is going tobe a aircraft fuel, because it's
(40:47):
going to be a pretty full loadof of great fuel or would have
been involved for anyone whodoesn't know it.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
The lock could be.
Flight was taking off from londLondon and going to.
New York is that right?
So it'd only been in the airfor about 40 minutes.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yeah, it took off at 25 past six that evening from
Heathrow and it went missingfrom the radar at two minutes
past seven that evening, sothat's how long it had been in
the air.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
So it was filled almost to the brim with jet fuel
, Fuel and people as it turnedout and people.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
And so we'd already had this discussion of a highly
dangerous situation of havingall this fuel.
This time they didn't reallyknow if the plane had crashed
intact, if you like, or a crashlanding that had gone wrong, or
what it was.
So we're trying to supposewhere all the dangers were
(41:52):
coming from, but that wascertainly one of them we
actually arrived at.
If you look up other accountsof this, you'll see that an
engine and a wing I think a wingas well landed on some houses,
I think at Sherwood Crescent inLockerbie, and two or three
(42:13):
houses completely disappeared.
There was a massive crater,houses were on fire, crater
houses were on fire, cars wereon fire on the motorway, there
was debris everywhere, and thisis what we arrived at and it was
almost apocalyptic.
It was something I actuallycouldn't have imagined.
(42:36):
It looked like a film set, youknow, and there was firemen were
trying to put out some of thefires couldn't have imagined.
It looked like a film set, yeah,you know, and there was.
Firemen were trying to preparesome of the fires.
There was no casualties to beseen, which was really our only
interest that and staying aliveand a fire officer came over and
said there's nothing here foryou If you go back up into
(43:00):
Lockerbie.
The police had set up aheadquarters, you know, like a
mobile headquarters, yeah, andso go back into Lockerbie and
find that.
That's the only advice I cangive you.
But that wasn't before.
We had pulled a very quick stopand we'd all jumped out with
our cases, our Medic, one cases,and I don't mind telling you, I
(43:24):
was terrified, I absolutelybottled it, and then I realised
that everybody else had as well,because it was a scene that I
can't imagine.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
So we said right, okay.
So we gathered ourselves andgot back in the car and were
taken into Lockerbie town itselfand by this time there was some
order starting to emerge.
There was a smell of fuel.
It was running down the gutters.
(44:02):
Oh really it was insane.
There was wreckage lying around, there were some bodies to be
seen, you know.
So like we knew that from wherethe houses had been flattened.
If there wasn't any casualtiesin these houses they'd be so, so
lucky.
But in fact you also knewthere'd be nothing to be found
(44:24):
of them, just crushed yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
So is it.
The first casualties you sawwere not the locals.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Well, my recollection is there are some forms to be
seen lying on the ground whichwe took to be bodies, but we
didn't look at those becauseothers had, you know, the local
ambulance man at a place andeverybody would start to man up.
(44:57):
Don't get me wrong.
This wasn't a limited responsein any way whatsoever.
Every response within a radiusof 50 miles was legging it
towards Lockerbie.
No doubt about that.
It was a massive response and amassive response was required.
But there was complete chaos.
The ambulance service didn't, Ithink at that point, have a
(45:19):
centre set up.
The police did and the firebrigade did, but I don't think
they were talking to each othermeaningfully at that point.
Everybody's absolutely doingtheir best in the most palatable
circumstances.
Bedlam, absolute bedlam, andall you could really do is react
(45:42):
to what you were told with thecapacity that you had.
You know.
So we were going to set upemergency ward 10 somewhere, you
know.
So you're just reacting to whatwas going on.
So we were standing outside therange which was outside the
police the police, I think,emergency van or whatever it was
(46:06):
they had when a car pulled upand it was a local GP and he
said he had just driven over thehill and he said that he saw
some white debris on top of thehill, which we now know as
Thundergarth Hill.
And he saw some white debris upthere and Colin Robertson, who
(46:33):
was in charge of us, made thedecision to say right, okay, you
get back in your car and takeus there.
Because, if there's debris upthere, there's going to be
passengers.
Other things yeah passengers.
And that's what happened.
The GP jumped in his car,started heading back up this
(46:56):
narrow wee road, going up a hilljust outside Lockerbie, with us
behind him and a couple ofambulances who had tumbled onto
the fact that we were the medicone team and that we were doing
something.
They thought having a bit ofthat, and that's how it happened
.
And it was more.
It wasn't any more complex thanthat.
(47:16):
People just were looking to seewhat they could meaningfully do
and that was no moresophisticated than that.
We had no idea what we weregoing to, no idea.
Anyway, we got to the top ofthis hill and the GP stopped his
car and he pointed over thisdry-stained dike into this field
(47:40):
and sure enough, we could pickout some debris there.
So the field gate was openedand our vehicle was the first in
, and it was a Range Rover whichwas perfectly suited to the
terrain.
It was absolutely fine.
Headlights were on full beam.
As we turned into this field andwhat we saw was in the arc of
(48:09):
light imagine, a wide arc of afull beam Range Rover, green
grass.
It hadn't been snowing, thegrass was green and there were
sheep, lots of sheep.
And as the vehicle turned roundand the light, and this was the
only light that we had, becausethere was no street lights or
anything.
We were on a hill and, as itturned round, what I saw was was
(48:34):
grass and sheep, grass andsheep cockpit of a jumbo jet and
sheep and grass and sheepCockpit of a jumbo jet Lying on
its side in the field right infront of us All right, that is
where we're going to leave itfor part one of this episode.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Part two will be available next Monday, so please
subscribe now so you don't missout.
And in that episode, tony takesus through the rest of his
Lockerbie experience and hislater career shift into criminal
law and some of the amazing andgrisly murder cases he was
working on.
He also reflects on his manyjobs and shares some great
advice for anyone interested insimilar paths.
A huge thanks to Tony fortaking the time to share his
(49:25):
story with us and a huge thanksto you for listening.
For photos, links and moreabout this episode, head to
knowordinarymondaycom and lookfor the episodes page.
You can also find us on oursocials Facebook, instagram,
LinkedIn and more.
You can find all them at noOrdinary Monday on Linktree.
Come and join the conversationand if you enjoyed this episode,
(49:49):
please do two really quickthings Give us a five-star
rating review and tell a friend.
That's it.
It really helps us grow theshow, attract more amazing
guests and inspire new listeners.
This episode was produced,hosted and edited by me, chris
Barron.
Thank you all for listening.
Hope you enjoyed the episodeand have a great Monday everyone
(50:09):
.
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