August 31, 2025 • 43 mins
Tony Bonner takes us deep into his extraordinary experiences as a first responder at the Lockerbie bombing in this gripping conclusion to his two-part interview. His vivid account of discovering the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 – the cockpit embedded in a Scottish field, bodies scattered across the countryside – offers a rare glimpse into one of Britain's darkest moments through the eyes of someone who lived it.
The psychological impact of such trauma shapes much of Tony's narrative. He describes how his mind protected him from certain memories while preserving others in stark detail, and shares the profound moment when hearing radio reports about grieving families in New York brought the human dimension of the tragedy into sharp focus. Despite the horror, Tony speaks with remarkable clarity and respect, carefully balancing clinical observations with deep compassion for the victims.
But this episode isn't just about disaster – it's about reinvention and finding purpose. At 36, Tony made the courageous decision to pursue his lifelong dream of becoming a lawyer. Studying full-time while working night shifts to support his family, he eventually became a prosecutor specializing in homicide cases. His matter-of-fact descriptions of Glasgow's violent crime scene and his work on notorious cases including the World's End Murders reveal the gritty reality of criminal prosecution.
Throughout our conversation, Tony's wisdom about career satisfaction shines through. "Nobody ever had a satisfying career being half-hearted," he observes, emphasizing that meaningful work requires full commitment regardless of the field. Whether describing his time as a trauma nurse or criminal prosecutor, his story demonstrates how even the most challenging circumstances can become stepping stones to personal growth and professional fulfillment.
Ready to be inspired by an extraordinary journey through two demanding careers? Listen now, and discover why finding work you love means "you'll never do a day's work in your life."
If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a five-star rating and review, and tell a friend about the show.
WANT TO BE A GUEST? You can submit your own career story through our website at noordinarymonday.com or email us at hello@noordinarymonday.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
All right, welcome back to the no Ordinary Monday
podcast.
I'm your host, chris Barron,and we're here at part two of
the episode with Tony Bonner.
So if you haven't heard thatfirst part, then please go back
and have a listen to thatepisode.
Tony is an emergency traumanurse and he was telling us last
episode about his experiencesat the Lockerbie bombing.
(00:28):
He left us at the moment wherehe and his team came across the
front of the fuselage of theplane and they were just about
to start looking for survivorsin the area.
So let's jump straight back inand hear the rest of Tony's
story.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
So the field gate was opened and our vehicle was the
first in, and it was a RangeRover.
It was perfectly suited to theterrain.
You know, it was absolutelyfine Headlights on full beam.
as we turned into this field andwhat we saw was was in the arc
of light, imagine a wide arc ofa full beam range rover, a green
(01:14):
grass hadn't been snowing, thegrass was green and there were
sheep, lots of sheep, and as asthe vehicle turned around, the
light and this was the onlylight that we had, because there
was no street lights oranything.
We were on a hill driving thecountryside and as it turned
round, what I saw was grass andsheep, grass and sheep.
(01:42):
Cockpit of a jumbo jet Lying onits side in the field right in
front of us.
So that photograph that you see, you know the photograph that's
always used to depict Lockerbie, yeah, he was the first there.
(02:04):
First medical team.
Certainly there was a policeofficer there before us, so he
must have stopped in his patrolcar and thought I'm going to you
know All this money.
There might have been otherpeople there.
They all have their own stories, but I can only tell you what
my recollections are.
But out of the darkness of thenight appeared a cockpit jumbo
(02:27):
jet.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Surreal.
That must have been so surreal.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
More astonished in my life, nor since the visual
impact.
The plane itself wasbrilliantly white, with a blue
stripe up the side of it, and wecould just make out some of the
writing of the name of theaircraft.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I see.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
But it was so out of place and, man, it was big.
It was big, you know, and only,I think, the top third of the
diameter, if you like of thefuselage or the full diameter of
(03:19):
the cockpit.
Part of the plane is visible.
Aboveference was there.
It was just embedded in thesoil, in the dirt, yeah, and we
were utterly gobsmacked.
(03:43):
There was nothing you could saythat wasn't immediately obvious
.
Oh look, you know, and quite afew trite things, unimportant
things, were said.
That's not because people justwanted to state the obvious,
just to get their mouth workingagain.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You know it was, it was so who was the first to say
something?
Was it Colin or you?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I can't remember.
I remember that we quickly gotout, so we were two doctors and
two nurses.
So we paired up one doctor, onenurse.
We had these really rubbish,wee, bright orange plastic
suitcases that held our airwaymanagement kit in one and
(04:33):
intravenous fluids in the other.
So we were carrying these casesand we paired off.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Ben, did you see any?
Any bodies?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
at this point.
Yes, there were bodies not infront of the cockpit, but it was
immediately obvious to us thatnight that this plane had
disintegrated in the air.
Really different parts of ithad landed in different places
and you didn't have to be agenius to figure that out.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
So almost in a line, depending on the weight of which
part of the plane and so on andso forth, and the weight of the
passengers and all the otherthings, and a trail going back
from the broken fuselage, if youlike.
There were bodies in a linegoing back in that direction
fuselage, if you like.
There were bodies in the linegoing back in that direction.
We started to examine thebodies as we came across them.
(05:33):
But Colin and I also went roundthe back end, or the open end,
if you like, of the cockpit andyou could look in and obviously
by torchlight, and there weresome discernible figures in the
front of the cockpit, but therewas no movement and Colin and I
(05:54):
looked at each other and thought, well, we'll just jump in and
check these bodies to see ifthere's any signs of life,
because that was our solepurpose.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, we were just about to and the policeman any
signs of life, because that wasour sole purpose.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, we were just about to and the policeman
physically took hold of us andsaid no, you don't.
We said what do you mean?
You know this is our job, justlet us do it sort of response.
And the policeman said well,I'm stopping you because if you
look closely, the policeman said, well, I'm stopping you because
(06:34):
if you look closely, that wholearea was full of metal shards,
of broken fuselage and you knoweverything.
And he's right.
If we had jumped in, we wouldhave been cut to ribbons.
Really we would have beencasualties and that would have
helped anybody.
So it was.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
You guys were trying to access the remains of the
fuselage by this point and itwas just a shred.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It was just a cheese grater it was a cheese grater,
it would have been and we feltbad because we didn't want to
give up.
Give anybody up.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Unless we had to, you know.
So our instinct was to go andphysically check.
I think the pilot and co-pilotwere still in their seats,
although you couldn't reallydiscern.
And this is where my memoryit's not my memories playing
tricks on me it's blanked outwee bits.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And I can't give you a good description of the pilot
or co-pilot.
There wasn't easily discernibleshapes, you know, and it was
dark, we had torches, you know,which was all a bit rubbish, but
that's what it was like at thetime.
Jeez, we had torches, you knowwhich was all a bit rubbish, but
that's what it was like at thetime, jeez, and there was none
(07:52):
left alive.
You didn't find anyone.
No, what we then did was wethen started to check the bodies
which were almost in a linegoing back.
I think there was one, just abody or two, just at the side of
the broken open end of thecockpit and their bodies going
further back into the field.
(08:12):
So we checked those and happilymy memory doesn't afford me any
detailed recollection of thefaces of the people and stuff,
and I'm not unhappy about that.
I remember at the time thinkingthis is where my memory kind of
keeps running the edges of whatI saw that I'm really not sure
(08:38):
that these people wereunconscious when they died.
They would have becomeunconscious as the plane broke
up, whether they had enough timeto regain consciousness as they
fell through the air.
I would be persuaded that someof them may be dead, and that's
a very unhappy thought.
But they wouldn't have seenwhat was happening to them
(09:00):
because they wouldn't have seenthe ground or anything else.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
But it was you know.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, terrible experience, I'm sure.
When the bodies landed theybounced, so beside each body
there was a perfect imprint insoil.
Wow, almost like something outof pompeii, you know really like
a, like a shape, an identicalshape to the body beside it.
(09:26):
I didn't expect that.
I hadn't even read about that.
I didn't think that waspossible.
So anyway, there were nosurvivors and there were never
ever going to be any.
There may have been somesurvivors on the ground.
I think there were some injuredpeople on the ground.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, from the locals and the aircraft, yeah, jesus,
and I guess that it's kind of wewere kind of saying before
about how your training kind ofis very important.
It's like being in the military, because you're dealing with a
highly stressful psychologically, emotionally, situation and the
(10:06):
only thing you can do is allowyour subconscious training to
guide you, because yourconscious mind is overwhelmed
and I guess it kind of shows how, how vital that training is I
mentioned people sayingunnecessary things and I and
this is why I know I hadsomewhere a visual to accompany
(10:30):
what I said.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But I said to Colin something like this one's dead,
he or she doesn't have any face,was something that I said and I
remember at the time thinkingoh time, thinking oh, come on,
you know, yeah, that's justunnecessary, but I don't have a
(10:52):
cut, an accompanying visual withthat.
That's a memory I have, but Ihave no, no visual to go with it
.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
it's not weird I mean it's, it's probably a
protective mechanism in someways of your mind.
I mean, at what point did youall kind of realise that there
was no job for you to do?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I think we kind of knew we didn't know how many
people were involved with theaircraft.
We didn't know how many peoplewere involved with the aircraft.
We didn't know how many peoplewere involved on the ground.
We didn't know anything.
But we knew that we had a dutyto ourselves and to the
passengers and their families tokeep on looking.
And if it's even possible, itwas another.
(11:44):
Well, I would.
Someone said, well, there'sbodies in the next field.
So Colin said, well, we couldsplit up, we'll cover more
ground.
And I said, right, let's dothat.
And I don't know if it's thesame local GP.
But there was a GP who saidwell, I'll take you down to the
(12:07):
next field and we can both look.
Great plan, he said.
So he said jump in the car.
And it was a Jaguar XGS and itwas beautiful, white leather,
you know seats, and it was warmas toast, because this time it
(12:28):
was absolutely frozen,chittering cold, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So they had seat warmers back in 1988 did they?
In the Jaguars.
He blasted the heat in the car.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
He'd left the car heating on, but that wasn't what
did my head.
What really got to me was theclassical music playing when I
got in and sat down.
It was just the juxtapositionof all of this.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And the comfort of the leather seats and the fancy
jag, you know, and the classicalmusic, you know, and I was
thinking, Jesus, you know thisis crazy.
Anyway, it didn't take, I don'tknow.
I don't even know why we evenjumped in the car, or maybe the
field was 10 minutes away orsomething.
So we jumped out and bytorchlight started to search a
(13:20):
field for bodies and I havehonestly no recollection of what
we saw.
I do have a recollection therewere some bodies there.
I was also pleasantly surprisedthat, in fact, some guys
started to appear in camouflagegear.
The army had mobilised andapparently they had flew a
couple of squads by helicopter,I don't know.
(13:44):
And then I saw a helicopter withits searchlights on scouring
the field ahead of us it it wasobvious there wasn't anything to
be done.
I don't think there were manybodies there, I think there were
(14:06):
some.
So I got a message.
A policeman came and gave me amessage and said are you with
the medic one team.
And I said aye.
He said well, you've beenrecalled back down to Lockerbie.
You have to meet yourcolleagues in the ice skating
(14:27):
rink.
And I remember this lad and Idon't know his name.
(14:47):
Must have been in his 60s,remember, I was probably in my
20s.
He made me a cup of tea andI've never been so grateful for
a cup of tea in my life and thislad just knew just to give me a
cup of tea and let me sit down.
You know, I think it tookseveral days to process it, to
(15:15):
actually go through the eventsthat I've just described to you
and kind of put them in place.
I've been lucky in my careerthat, in spite of what I've seen
and done in my careers pluralI've always had the ability to
file things away in their ownwee box and keep them all nice,
(15:38):
tightly packaged together in mymemory, with a Do Not Open sign
on the door.
Isn't this interesting?
Because that's what I did withthis, and there are very, very
few nights I haven't slept in mylife, in either of my careers.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Because that's an important skill to have, would
you say, In those industriesthat ability to compartmentalize
.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, and I think most of us did that.
One of the things that I wasn'tready for was professional
jealousy with some of some of mycolleagues in that certain
emergency unit missed the bigone and they were a bit
resentful about it, and Iabsolutely understand that and
(16:35):
forgive them that, because it'sthe one thing you hope for when
you specialize in trauma thatyou you get tested and I mean
there's no bigger test.
I had nothing to pass or fail.
We didn't.
We didn't treat anybody, didn'tsave anybody.
We went through all this on theoff chance that we could and
(17:00):
ultimately we didn't saveanybody.
So that was, that was moredifficult, colleagues being
jealous of us.
I remember the following dayone of my colleagues wanted hey,
how?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
did you see like was there lots of you know dead?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
bodies and this kind of stuff.
I said well I don't really wantto talk about it just now.
And she said for goodness sake,tony, it was yesterday, wow,
you know, and I wasn't gratefulfor that either, but it's
interesting you haven't.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
You said to me before that you haven't really told
this story in great detailbefore, is there?
Is that?
I mean, we could have talkedabout it a little bit?
You just mentioned the factthat it's all been labelled
stored away, do not open.
Is that partly the reason, doyou think, why?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yes, I think that's for a while.
Afterwards, people wanted tospeak to me because they had a
salacious interest in it and Ididn't want any part of that.
The important part of this istrying to respect the dignity of
(18:14):
those.
I got upset the next morning,having finally gotten home and
given Irene her second bestbunch of flowers.
Upset the next morning, havingfinally gotten home and given
Irene her second best bunch offlowers, to simply carry on.
For this time I had a radioalarm used to wake me up with
the news.
The first thing I heard werethe tears and the anguish of
(18:38):
people waiting in New York forthe flight.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Jeez.
Because I hadn't reallyregistered until that point, had
I.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I hadn't really.
I had a snapshot of it, yeah.
And I thought, christ, you knowthese poor people.
And then, thinking of some ofthe things I saw, I thought, oh,
they're not going to want toknow any of that, and it was
(19:10):
that bothered me.
That bothered me.
But you know, by the time thenext day came, it was almost
like it had been a bad dreamyeah we Freddie Mercury pulled
(19:30):
the handbrake, you know theexchange of official information
in two fast moving vehicles.
You know the burning houses, andit just all seemed I'd seen
some stuff by this time, youknow, but nothing, nothing like
that.
What was interesting, thatthere was a camaraderie came out
(19:53):
of it between those of us whowent, and it was almost like a
camaraderie that didn't needdescription or any words.
We just knew what each otherhad been through and it was just
(20:13):
enough.
You know just enough to knowthat.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I mean on reflection, this many years later, I guess,
from a from a from a, let'sraceway, sort of say, from a
personal or a career perspectivebeing tested in the way that
you've been tested on such amassive scale even though you
know you say there wasn't anyoneto save, necessarily, but
(20:39):
coming out the other side of it,having known you've been
through something like that tothat degree you've gone through
that test.
Did you feel a level ofconfidence or, um, what's the
right word?
Um, you know, confidence inyour skills, confidence in you.
If I did find someone I knew Icould handle it.
Like you know, having passedthrough that, was there
(21:01):
something at the other side thatyou could grow upon or build
upon?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So you learn a lot about yourself at times like
that.
And I learned because,perfectly frank with you, I was
young bumptious pain in the arseprobably.
I had limited experience oflife and love, a limited
(21:29):
professional experience ofdealing with matters like this.
So it was formative to acertain extent, I think.
But that's not to get carriedaway with that, because I
believe even with the besttraining in the world, if
something hits you suddenly,it's what happened to you the
(21:50):
day before might be the decidingfactor as to whether you cope
with it or not.
Or if you had an argument withyour wife the night before, or
if one of your children was sick, then something could happen on
you quickly that, even if youwere the most experienced person
in the world, your bottle wouldgo.
I suppose I came out of thatknowing that I had my limits too
(22:14):
.
At various points throughoutthat night I was pretty useless.
I'm not ashamed to say that,but I think the trick is to come
through it.
The trick's really okay, right,persuade yourself to keep going
.
There's something that I'm goingto parallel.
(22:35):
Later in life, when I was doingtrials as a prosecutor that
nobody else in the officefancied doing, or when I was
working with the homicide teamsand working cold case murders
and stuff, I was aware there wasa parallel and that is I found
myself running into situationsthat most sensible people run
(22:57):
away from.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
You mentioned there you took skills from that test
that you took forward into yournext career.
But the first question I wantedto ask is why did you feel like
you needed another career?
A lot of people they do acareer and that's the job that
they do for a long time.
It takes a lot of bravery andcommitment, confidence, you know
(23:27):
, and it can be a sacrifice anda gamble to change your careers
so far into it.
What age were you when you madethat decision?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I started studying law when I was 36.
You made that decision.
I started studying law when Iwas 36.
I had always wanted to be alawyer.
Actually, although I didn'tknow that much about it, malcolm
Ward was a lawyer and he was acool guy, you know probably not
more sophisticated than that,but I was terrible at school.
I mean, for reasons previouslydiscussed, I didn't know whether
(24:00):
I needed a shite or a haircut.
I didn't know when I was goingto be.
No, I had no idea where to goabout forming my life.
I was a terrible student and Icouldn't study, and so my exam
results were average.
I think I escaped school withso many O grades and I think,
four highers, you know, but theyweren't focused on anything.
(24:25):
There was nothing reallyfloated my boat, as described
earlier.
I fell into things, but I'dalways wanted to study law and
I've always been quite a quickthinker and, as you know, I can
usually talk my way out oftrouble.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
We'll go to that here yes.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So I could always argue.
You know, and friends used tocomplain that I always seemed to
end up winning arguments thatthey knew that I knew were wrong
.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Maybe I've had an inquisitive mind, maybe it's
something I did fancy.
I was terrible at school, fellinto a career.
It took me until I was about 34to start to get out of that.
I applied to study law more inhope than expectation.
I thought, well, if I don't,I'm never going to know.
(25:31):
And if I don't get accepted,then I don't have to worry about
it.
You know it's having a decentcareer up to that point as well
so.
I applied to Edinburgh, Glasgow,Aberdeen and Dundee
universities to study law and Igot accepted 12-4.
So I went to.
Edinburgh University at thebright old age of 36.
And and was delighted to bestudying the old college in
(25:55):
Edinburgh.
It was a real groove.
It was really nice and I lovedit.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Reliving your youth a little bit.
I mean, you're a mature studentby that point.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yes, and I wasn't the oldest, but the youngsters were
too busy drinking andco-working about For me.
You mentioned risk earlier.
This was a risky thing for meto do because I could get
through, get my law degree,which I did.
I got an ordinary LLB in twoyears, which is all you could do
(26:28):
in legal practice, and then Ihad to do two years as a trainee
procurator fiscal.
So it was a five-yearcommitment from then.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
So I wasn't qualified as a lawyer until I was 41
years old.
I mean, that's a careertransition A.
It's not even that much of atransferable skill, going from
emergency medicine to criminallaw.
I mean, obviously you'repassionate about it, but that
decision is not one you takeovernight.
I mean you've got kids, you'vegot a wife, you've got a family,
(27:12):
you've got commitments.
And I'm just curious, because alot of people listening to this
might be in a position they'remid-30s, they know what they
want to do, but it's hard totake that leap.
What might you say to someonein that position to help them,
or help them not take the leap?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
So I think I knew by the time.
So I think I knew by the time Iapplied to do my law degree.
But in terms of healthcare, myrace was run.
I'd done the good stuff.
I was getting around to doingthe boring stuff.
I really wasn't interested.
(27:56):
And back then changing careerwasn't something that people did
very often.
But I would say to anybodylistening to this live your life
to the fullest.
If you feel you want to changecareer, then commit to it.
You know, and it can be done.
Because if I, if I, can get alaw degree but it can't be done,
I mean that must be, true.
(28:21):
You just have to have thecourage to make that jump.
And I knew.
Because I'd done some summerwork in the local procurator
fiscal's office, I knewgenerally what it was I was
looking for Boy.
Did I want to do it?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
And what was that?
What were you looking for?
To become a prosecutor to takethe bad guys and put them away
absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It's quite handy.
I think you know yeah, argumentargumentative skills yes, well,
I never lost a trial.
I didn't do that very manytrials, but I never lost them
well, that's good, I find myselfworking in homicide cases and
latterly cold cases.
I did cold cases for the bestor homicide for the best part of
(29:06):
10 or 11 years and I did coldcases for 4 or 5 of those.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
You've regaled me with stories of samurai swords
in Glasgow and all kinds of madstuff.
What sort of stuff did you seeduring your time?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
So the bulk of the prosecuting work is unremarkable
.
It's minor assaults, thefts,you know, drink drivers, whats
drink drivers what else?
You know, lots of ordinarystuff.
And that stuff has to be done.
There's no two ways about it.
Society requires you to upholdthe rule of law, and that's
(29:49):
every bit as valid a way to goabout it.
It's working, honestly,absolutely.
I worked in Edinburgh andGlasgow predominantly.
The level of violence of peoplein Glasgow is absolutely
breathtaking.
I know you've lived there soyou'll have your own insight.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I survived Glasgow.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I need a T-shirt that says I survived Glasgow.
I used to characterize homicidebetween Glasgow and Edinburgh,
as in Edinburgh your averageassassin gave the hospital a
chance Shit, In Glasgow not somuch.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Not so much oh man.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
They were setting about each other wholesale.
As you mentioned, SamuraiSwords, they finished the job on
the spot.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Is this gang stuff?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, mostly gang and drugs and, in Glasgow, the
sectarian elements that younever, ever read in a police
report Guys in green and whiteshirts chasing guys in blue
shirts up the street with knivesand then getting chased back
down again by the guys in theblue shirts, but this time
there's more of them and theyhad more knives.
One of the youngsters trippingup and getting kebabbed on the
(31:09):
street, I mean real nasty stuff,feeling unpleasant.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, real nasty stuff.
Feeling unpleasant, yeah, sortof stuff.
I mean we hear about stuffanecdotally living in Glasgow
and it can be, you don't?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
some of it feels embellished but from your
experience not so much no, notin my experience, much as
journalists like to sellnewspapers, or did I?
Don't know anymore, probably,but actually the public don't
have their stomach for thedetail.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Detail's far worse than you could ever imagine.
You know, and actually you knowthere are people who get
pleasure out of the moresalacious detail they've got,
the better, but actually not ifyou're standing in a stairwell
(32:08):
with an 18-year-old at your feetwho's just been stabbed 70
times and that stairwell smellslike a nabatoir and his mother
screaming at the top of hervoice.
Nothing to be had there.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
But in saying all that, you made the leap, you
succeeded in your second career.
No regrets, clearly.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Have I got regrets?
I have regrets that I didn'tstudy law sooner.
Believe it or not because I hada pretty interesting career as
a nurse.
I regret.
I think I could have been abetter fiscal, probably a better
nurse and a better fiscal.
You know, sometimes you spendso long doing the thing that you
(32:57):
kind of it's not that Istagnated, but you know
repetition, you find comfort inrepetition.
I think it's looking back.
I think I was comfortable insome jobs for too long.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, you weren't being challenged enough.
Yeah, kept on your toes.
Interesting, interesting.
I think I would have been abetter fiscal.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
There are certain things in my career that I know
I could have done better, and Iwish I had.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
I do.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
But you know, I also think I could be a better
husband and father.
You know, there's nothingremarkable about this.
I'm just a human.
You know, sometimes I make gooddecisions.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
It can all be better.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Brilliant.
Well, let's just bring us on tothe final part here.
Just, it kind of is a, I guess,a look back, you know.
I mean you look back at yourcareer.
You kind of just set it there.
I mean you feel regret.
But you must feel other thingsas well.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
When you look back on your as a, I feel great huge,
great, huge gratitude to, toirene and the kids for
supporting me through it yeah Ididn't give me the chance to
study law and because I was, Istudied at full time for two
years yeah, and you're notearning money night.
(34:14):
Well, I did knife shifts at theweekend.
Oh, I see, to try and earnmoney in the local care homes.
You know, it's me turning upwith one of my old uniforms on
and taking charge of a care home.
Wow, anyway, so gratitude.
(34:35):
I wish I'd done bettersometimes.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I mean if you're able to talk to yourself as a young
man at the age of 17,.
You would have said be a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
No, I would say, it doesn't matter what you want to
do, but commit to it and be thebest at it that you can.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
My dad was a car mechanic and whilst he never
made very much money, he was ahardworking guy.
He was a great car mechanic.
He used to work on racing carsand stuff and people used to
come to him from far and widebecause my dad could fit his
cars, yeah, and he loved it.
And he said to me it's an oldadage and I know lots of people
say this, but my father did saythis to me he said if you find
(35:28):
what you love doing in life,then do it, because you'll never
do a day's work in your life.
And that's how he saw it.
He gave me a card he fixed hewas in heaven.
And there were times in mynursing career and times as a
fiscal where I thought this isgreat.
(35:49):
You know, this is great.
This is what I want to do.
So it doesn't matter what youdecide to do, commit to it and
work hard, work hard.
Nobody ever had a satisfyingcareer.
Being half-hearted.
(36:10):
Maybe they would say they did,but I don't believe that.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I've always had the energy in my mind that nothing
worth having ever comes easy.
Yeah, I think that's quite trueas well.
I mean one of the things I kindof like it's a bit tricky with
you, a little bit, but I wantyou to try and imagine an
auditorium filled withprospective people for jobs.
(36:38):
You know they could be 14 yearolds.
You know trying to find their,find their interests and their
passions.
You know high school leavers, umuniversity graduates, people in
their 30s, whatever, try, tryand pitch your jobs to them one
at a time, if you don't mind,because usually it would just be
one job, but because you've hadtwo careers, I'm going to ask
(37:00):
you to do it twice.
So imagine you stand up andyou've got a minute maybe less
than a minute as long as youwant to say this is why you
should do this job, or this iswhy you shouldn't do this job,
or whatever you think.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Well, I suppose I would say can you imagine a life
where you wake up in themorning and you pull on a
uniform and it associates youwith the best of people and you
spend the day making adifference to other people's
lives?
That you could have a lot offun, a lot of fun, a lot of
(37:36):
laughs in the process, be scaredand challenged, yes, but the
time you get home and take youruniform off, you think that was
a day.
And nursing, especially traumanursing, gives you that.
You know your while's alwaysshort of time, usually not got
(38:00):
enough time to eat, people inyour face dying in spite of you,
and then sometimes savingpeople and dealing with their
families, and so on and so forth.
For all the challenging thatthat is, that's the kind of
challenge you want in your life.
And if that's the kind ofchallenge you want in your life,
and if that's for you, I wouldsay, become a trauma nurse,
(38:25):
because it's a hell of a ride.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
It's an understatement in your case.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
I think it's a hell of a ride.
And what?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
about criminal law.
Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
My life as a prosecutor and I'm quite proud
of this.
You'll be able to tell my voice.
I worked on a notorious coldcase in Edinburgh where two
young girls were mugged up bytwo guys.
It became known as the World'sEnd Murders.
(38:58):
Look up, it's fascinating.
That's another one.
You can watch Endless Programson, by the way, if you've got
nothing to do with your time.
So I worked on that for a year.
We got a guy called Sinclairgot was found guilty of the
murder of the two girls and hegot the longest prison sentence
(39:22):
ever handed out in Scotland,which was great because you had
to keep this going off thestreets forever because he was
an awful, awful man.
But the following week afterthat case but the following week
after that case I was asked togo to Aberdeen University to
(39:44):
lecture on the world's endmurders and my son, david had
asked me if I would do it he wasstudying forensic science at
the time and eventually his Iwould do it.
He was studying forensicscience at the time and
eventually his guy in charge ofhis course asked me if I'd come
speak to the course about it.
I said fine.
(40:04):
So I got permission to use allthe graphics you know from the
presentation of the trial.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
And I said alright.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I'll do that.
I think this will be a bit of ablast.
I'll go out for a pint withDavid afterwards, maybe time.
I'll do that.
I think this will be a bit of ablast.
I'll go out for a pint withDavid afterwards, maybe time
well spent.
What I didn't know when Iturned up was there was 200
people in the main lecture inthe university, including the
rector and all the various otherprofessors and stuff and me and
(40:34):
I had the absolute privilege oflecturing my son on what I did
and what was a notorious case atthe time.
It still bears the reading andI talked non-stop.
This will come as no surpriseto you.
I talked non-stop for two and ahalf hours.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Jeez, and they didn't mind, presumably.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
So if I would say to anybody wanting to become a
prosecutor, be sure, it's whatyou want, and when you get there
, don't hold back.
And sometimes you get to dothings that make you feel so
good about, because actually, ina very real way, you make the
world a better place, perhapsjust with a few people or a
(41:21):
small town or a village, andsometimes on a bigger stage than
that.
If that does it for you, that'sthe job for you.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Brilliant.
What a great place to leave it.
Tony, thank you so much foryour time.
Appreciate it.
Pleasure and to see you, asalways.
Okay, that is it for Tony'sincredible story.
Thank you so much for listening, guys.
Another huge thanks to Tony fortaking the time to chat with me
(41:55):
.
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(42:17):
Coming up next week, I have gotanother great episode for you
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I speak to conflictcinematographer michael downey.
Michael and I have actuallyworked together a few times over
the years.
Um, we chat about loads ofgreat stuff how he fell into
journalism in egypt during thearab spring and his experiences
in Kiev, ukraine, as theRussians first invaded.
(42:38):
It's really, really crazy stuff.
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(42:58):
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(43:20):
Barron.
Thank you all for listening andhave a great Monday everyone.
All right, welcome back to the no Ordinary Monday
podcast.
I'm your host, chris Barron,and we're here at part two of
the episode with Tony Bonner.
So if you haven't heard thatfirst part, then please go back
and have a listen to thatepisode.
Tony is an emergency traumanurse and he was telling us last
episode about his experiencesat the Lockerbie bombing.
(00:28):
He left us at the moment wherehe and his team came across the
front of the fuselage of theplane and they were just about
to start looking for survivorsin the area.
So let's jump straight back inand hear the rest of Tony's
story.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
So the field gate was opened and our vehicle was the
first in, and it was a RangeRover.
It was perfectly suited to theterrain.
You know, it was absolutelyfine Headlights on full beam.
as we turned into this field andwhat we saw was was in the arc
of light, imagine a wide arc ofa full beam range rover, a green
(01:14):
grass hadn't been snowing, thegrass was green and there were
sheep, lots of sheep, and as asthe vehicle turned around, the
light and this was the onlylight that we had, because there
was no street lights oranything.
We were on a hill driving thecountryside and as it turned
round, what I saw was grass andsheep, grass and sheep.
(01:42):
Cockpit of a jumbo jet Lying onits side in the field right in
front of us.
So that photograph that you see, you know the photograph that's
always used to depict Lockerbie, yeah, he was the first there.
(02:04):
First medical team.
Certainly there was a policeofficer there before us, so he
must have stopped in his patrolcar and thought I'm going to you
know All this money.
There might have been otherpeople there.
They all have their own stories, but I can only tell you what
my recollections are.
But out of the darkness of thenight appeared a cockpit jumbo
(02:27):
jet.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Surreal.
That must have been so surreal.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
More astonished in my life, nor since the visual
impact.
The plane itself wasbrilliantly white, with a blue
stripe up the side of it, and wecould just make out some of the
writing of the name of theaircraft.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I see.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
But it was so out of place and, man, it was big.
It was big, you know, and only,I think, the top third of the
diameter, if you like of thefuselage or the full diameter of
(03:19):
the cockpit.
Part of the plane is visible.
Aboveference was there.
It was just embedded in thesoil, in the dirt, yeah, and we
were utterly gobsmacked.
(03:43):
There was nothing you could saythat wasn't immediately obvious
.
Oh look, you know, and quite afew trite things, unimportant
things, were said.
That's not because people justwanted to state the obvious,
just to get their mouth workingagain.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You know it was, it was so who was the first to say
something?
Was it Colin or you?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I can't remember.
I remember that we quickly gotout, so we were two doctors and
two nurses.
So we paired up one doctor, onenurse.
We had these really rubbish,wee, bright orange plastic
suitcases that held our airwaymanagement kit in one and
(04:33):
intravenous fluids in the other.
So we were carrying these casesand we paired off.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Ben, did you see any?
Any bodies?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
at this point.
Yes, there were bodies not infront of the cockpit, but it was
immediately obvious to us thatnight that this plane had
disintegrated in the air.
Really different parts of ithad landed in different places
and you didn't have to be agenius to figure that out.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
So almost in a line, depending on the weight of which
part of the plane and so on andso forth, and the weight of the
passengers and all the otherthings, and a trail going back
from the broken fuselage, if youlike.
There were bodies in a linegoing back in that direction
fuselage, if you like.
There were bodies in the linegoing back in that direction.
We started to examine thebodies as we came across them.
(05:33):
But Colin and I also went roundthe back end, or the open end,
if you like, of the cockpit andyou could look in and obviously
by torchlight, and there weresome discernible figures in the
front of the cockpit, but therewas no movement and Colin and I
(05:54):
looked at each other and thought, well, we'll just jump in and
check these bodies to see ifthere's any signs of life,
because that was our solepurpose.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, we were just about to and the policeman any
signs of life, because that wasour sole purpose.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, we were just about to and the policeman
physically took hold of us andsaid no, you don't.
We said what do you mean?
You know this is our job, justlet us do it sort of response.
And the policeman said well,I'm stopping you because if you
look closely, the policeman said, well, I'm stopping you because
(06:34):
if you look closely, that wholearea was full of metal shards,
of broken fuselage and you knoweverything.
And he's right.
If we had jumped in, we wouldhave been cut to ribbons.
Really we would have beencasualties and that would have
helped anybody.
So it was.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
You guys were trying to access the remains of the
fuselage by this point and itwas just a shred.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It was just a cheese grater it was a cheese grater,
it would have been and we feltbad because we didn't want to
give up.
Give anybody up.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Unless we had to, you know.
So our instinct was to go andphysically check.
I think the pilot and co-pilotwere still in their seats,
although you couldn't reallydiscern.
And this is where my memoryit's not my memories playing
tricks on me it's blanked outwee bits.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And I can't give you a good description of the pilot
or co-pilot.
There wasn't easily discernibleshapes, you know, and it was
dark, we had torches, you know,which was all a bit rubbish, but
that's what it was like at thetime.
Jeez, we had torches, you knowwhich was all a bit rubbish, but
that's what it was like at thetime, jeez, and there was none
(07:52):
left alive.
You didn't find anyone.
No, what we then did was wethen started to check the bodies
which were almost in a linegoing back.
I think there was one, just abody or two, just at the side of
the broken open end of thecockpit and their bodies going
further back into the field.
(08:12):
So we checked those and happilymy memory doesn't afford me any
detailed recollection of thefaces of the people and stuff,
and I'm not unhappy about that.
I remember at the time thinkingthis is where my memory kind of
keeps running the edges of whatI saw that I'm really not sure
(08:38):
that these people wereunconscious when they died.
They would have becomeunconscious as the plane broke
up, whether they had enough timeto regain consciousness as they
fell through the air.
I would be persuaded that someof them may be dead, and that's
a very unhappy thought.
But they wouldn't have seenwhat was happening to them
(09:00):
because they wouldn't have seenthe ground or anything else.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
But it was you know.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, terrible experience, I'm sure.
When the bodies landed theybounced, so beside each body
there was a perfect imprint insoil.
Wow, almost like something outof pompeii, you know really like
a, like a shape, an identicalshape to the body beside it.
(09:26):
I didn't expect that.
I hadn't even read about that.
I didn't think that waspossible.
So anyway, there were nosurvivors and there were never
ever going to be any.
There may have been somesurvivors on the ground.
I think there were some injuredpeople on the ground.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, from the locals and the aircraft, yeah, jesus,
and I guess that it's kind of wewere kind of saying before
about how your training kind ofis very important.
It's like being in the military, because you're dealing with a
highly stressful psychologically, emotionally, situation and the
(10:06):
only thing you can do is allowyour subconscious training to
guide you, because yourconscious mind is overwhelmed
and I guess it kind of shows how, how vital that training is I
mentioned people sayingunnecessary things and I and
this is why I know I hadsomewhere a visual to accompany
(10:30):
what I said.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But I said to Colin something like this one's dead,
he or she doesn't have any face,was something that I said and I
remember at the time thinkingoh time, thinking oh, come on,
you know, yeah, that's justunnecessary, but I don't have a
(10:52):
cut, an accompanying visual withthat.
That's a memory I have, but Ihave no, no visual to go with it
.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
it's not weird I mean it's, it's probably a
protective mechanism in someways of your mind.
I mean, at what point did youall kind of realise that there
was no job for you to do?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I think we kind of knew we didn't know how many
people were involved with theaircraft.
We didn't know how many peoplewere involved with the aircraft.
We didn't know how many peoplewere involved on the ground.
We didn't know anything.
But we knew that we had a dutyto ourselves and to the
passengers and their families tokeep on looking.
And if it's even possible, itwas another.
(11:44):
Well, I would.
Someone said, well, there'sbodies in the next field.
So Colin said, well, we couldsplit up, we'll cover more
ground.
And I said, right, let's dothat.
And I don't know if it's thesame local GP.
But there was a GP who saidwell, I'll take you down to the
(12:07):
next field and we can both look.
Great plan, he said.
So he said jump in the car.
And it was a Jaguar XGS and itwas beautiful, white leather,
you know seats, and it was warmas toast, because this time it
(12:28):
was absolutely frozen,chittering cold, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So they had seat warmers back in 1988 did they?
In the Jaguars.
He blasted the heat in the car.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
He'd left the car heating on, but that wasn't what
did my head.
What really got to me was theclassical music playing when I
got in and sat down.
It was just the juxtapositionof all of this.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And the comfort of the leather seats and the fancy
jag, you know, and the classicalmusic, you know, and I was
thinking, Jesus, you know thisis crazy.
Anyway, it didn't take, I don'tknow.
I don't even know why we evenjumped in the car, or maybe the
field was 10 minutes away orsomething.
So we jumped out and bytorchlight started to search a
(13:20):
field for bodies and I havehonestly no recollection of what
we saw.
I do have a recollection therewere some bodies there.
I was also pleasantly surprisedthat, in fact, some guys
started to appear in camouflagegear.
The army had mobilised andapparently they had flew a
couple of squads by helicopter,I don't know.
(13:44):
And then I saw a helicopter withits searchlights on scouring
the field ahead of us it it wasobvious there wasn't anything to
be done.
I don't think there were manybodies there, I think there were
(14:06):
some.
So I got a message.
A policeman came and gave me amessage and said are you with
the medic one team.
And I said aye.
He said well, you've beenrecalled back down to Lockerbie.
You have to meet yourcolleagues in the ice skating
(14:27):
rink.
And I remember this lad and Idon't know his name.
(14:47):
Must have been in his 60s,remember, I was probably in my
20s.
He made me a cup of tea andI've never been so grateful for
a cup of tea in my life and thislad just knew just to give me a
cup of tea and let me sit down.
You know, I think it tookseveral days to process it, to
(15:15):
actually go through the eventsthat I've just described to you
and kind of put them in place.
I've been lucky in my careerthat, in spite of what I've seen
and done in my careers pluralI've always had the ability to
file things away in their ownwee box and keep them all nice,
(15:38):
tightly packaged together in mymemory, with a Do Not Open sign
on the door.
Isn't this interesting?
Because that's what I did withthis, and there are very, very
few nights I haven't slept in mylife, in either of my careers.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Because that's an important skill to have, would
you say, In those industriesthat ability to compartmentalize
.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, and I think most of us did that.
One of the things that I wasn'tready for was professional
jealousy with some of some of mycolleagues in that certain
emergency unit missed the bigone and they were a bit
resentful about it, and Iabsolutely understand that and
(16:35):
forgive them that, because it'sthe one thing you hope for when
you specialize in trauma thatyou you get tested and I mean
there's no bigger test.
I had nothing to pass or fail.
We didn't.
We didn't treat anybody, didn'tsave anybody.
We went through all this on theoff chance that we could and
(17:00):
ultimately we didn't saveanybody.
So that was, that was moredifficult, colleagues being
jealous of us.
I remember the following dayone of my colleagues wanted hey,
how?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
did you see like was there lots of you know dead?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
bodies and this kind of stuff.
I said well I don't really wantto talk about it just now.
And she said for goodness sake,tony, it was yesterday, wow,
you know, and I wasn't gratefulfor that either, but it's
interesting you haven't.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
You said to me before that you haven't really told
this story in great detailbefore, is there?
Is that?
I mean, we could have talkedabout it a little bit?
You just mentioned the factthat it's all been labelled
stored away, do not open.
Is that partly the reason, doyou think, why?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yes, I think that's for a while.
Afterwards, people wanted tospeak to me because they had a
salacious interest in it and Ididn't want any part of that.
The important part of this istrying to respect the dignity of
(18:14):
those.
I got upset the next morning,having finally gotten home and
given Irene her second bestbunch of flowers.
Upset the next morning, havingfinally gotten home and given
Irene her second best bunch offlowers, to simply carry on.
For this time I had a radioalarm used to wake me up with
the news.
The first thing I heard werethe tears and the anguish of
(18:38):
people waiting in New York forthe flight.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Jeez.
Because I hadn't reallyregistered until that point, had
I.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I hadn't really.
I had a snapshot of it, yeah.
And I thought, christ, you knowthese poor people.
And then, thinking of some ofthe things I saw, I thought, oh,
they're not going to want toknow any of that, and it was
(19:10):
that bothered me.
That bothered me.
But you know, by the time thenext day came, it was almost
like it had been a bad dreamyeah we Freddie Mercury pulled
(19:30):
the handbrake, you know theexchange of official information
in two fast moving vehicles.
You know the burning houses, andit just all seemed I'd seen
some stuff by this time, youknow, but nothing, nothing like
that.
What was interesting, thatthere was a camaraderie came out
(19:53):
of it between those of us whowent, and it was almost like a
camaraderie that didn't needdescription or any words.
We just knew what each otherhad been through and it was just
(20:13):
enough.
You know just enough to knowthat.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I mean on reflection, this many years later, I guess,
from a from a from a, let'sraceway, sort of say, from a
personal or a career perspectivebeing tested in the way that
you've been tested on such amassive scale even though you
know you say there wasn't anyoneto save, necessarily, but
(20:39):
coming out the other side of it,having known you've been
through something like that tothat degree you've gone through
that test.
Did you feel a level ofconfidence or, um, what's the
right word?
Um, you know, confidence inyour skills, confidence in you.
If I did find someone I knew Icould handle it.
Like you know, having passedthrough that, was there
(21:01):
something at the other side thatyou could grow upon or build
upon?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So you learn a lot about yourself at times like
that.
And I learned because,perfectly frank with you, I was
young bumptious pain in the arseprobably.
I had limited experience oflife and love, a limited
(21:29):
professional experience ofdealing with matters like this.
So it was formative to acertain extent, I think.
But that's not to get carriedaway with that, because I
believe even with the besttraining in the world, if
something hits you suddenly,it's what happened to you the
(21:50):
day before might be the decidingfactor as to whether you cope
with it or not.
Or if you had an argument withyour wife the night before, or
if one of your children was sick, then something could happen on
you quickly that, even if youwere the most experienced person
in the world, your bottle wouldgo.
I suppose I came out of thatknowing that I had my limits too
(22:14):
.
At various points throughoutthat night I was pretty useless.
I'm not ashamed to say that,but I think the trick is to come
through it.
The trick's really okay, right,persuade yourself to keep going
.
There's something that I'm goingto parallel.
(22:35):
Later in life, when I was doingtrials as a prosecutor that
nobody else in the officefancied doing, or when I was
working with the homicide teamsand working cold case murders
and stuff, I was aware there wasa parallel and that is I found
myself running into situationsthat most sensible people run
(22:57):
away from.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
You mentioned there you took skills from that test
that you took forward into yournext career.
But the first question I wantedto ask is why did you feel like
you needed another career?
A lot of people they do acareer and that's the job that
they do for a long time.
It takes a lot of bravery andcommitment, confidence, you know
(23:27):
, and it can be a sacrifice anda gamble to change your careers
so far into it.
What age were you when you madethat decision?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I started studying law when I was 36.
You made that decision.
I started studying law when Iwas 36.
I had always wanted to be alawyer.
Actually, although I didn'tknow that much about it, malcolm
Ward was a lawyer and he was acool guy, you know probably not
more sophisticated than that,but I was terrible at school.
I mean, for reasons previouslydiscussed, I didn't know whether
(24:00):
I needed a shite or a haircut.
I didn't know when I was goingto be.
No, I had no idea where to goabout forming my life.
I was a terrible student and Icouldn't study, and so my exam
results were average.
I think I escaped school withso many O grades and I think,
four highers, you know, but theyweren't focused on anything.
(24:25):
There was nothing reallyfloated my boat, as described
earlier.
I fell into things, but I'dalways wanted to study law and
I've always been quite a quickthinker and, as you know, I can
usually talk my way out oftrouble.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
We'll go to that here yes.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So I could always argue.
You know, and friends used tocomplain that I always seemed to
end up winning arguments thatthey knew that I knew were wrong
.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Maybe I've had an inquisitive mind, maybe it's
something I did fancy.
I was terrible at school, fellinto a career.
It took me until I was about 34to start to get out of that.
I applied to study law more inhope than expectation.
I thought, well, if I don't,I'm never going to know.
(25:31):
And if I don't get accepted,then I don't have to worry about
it.
You know it's having a decentcareer up to that point as well
so.
I applied to Edinburgh, Glasgow,Aberdeen and Dundee
universities to study law and Igot accepted 12-4.
So I went to.
Edinburgh University at thebright old age of 36.
And and was delighted to bestudying the old college in
(25:55):
Edinburgh.
It was a real groove.
It was really nice and I lovedit.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Reliving your youth a little bit.
I mean, you're a mature studentby that point.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yes, and I wasn't the oldest, but the youngsters were
too busy drinking andco-working about For me.
You mentioned risk earlier.
This was a risky thing for meto do because I could get
through, get my law degree,which I did.
I got an ordinary LLB in twoyears, which is all you could do
(26:28):
in legal practice, and then Ihad to do two years as a trainee
procurator fiscal.
So it was a five-yearcommitment from then.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
So I wasn't qualified as a lawyer until I was 41
years old.
I mean, that's a careertransition A.
It's not even that much of atransferable skill, going from
emergency medicine to criminallaw.
I mean, obviously you'repassionate about it, but that
decision is not one you takeovernight.
I mean you've got kids, you'vegot a wife, you've got a family,
(27:12):
you've got commitments.
And I'm just curious, because alot of people listening to this
might be in a position they'remid-30s, they know what they
want to do, but it's hard totake that leap.
What might you say to someonein that position to help them,
or help them not take the leap?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
So I think I knew by the time.
So I think I knew by the time Iapplied to do my law degree.
But in terms of healthcare, myrace was run.
I'd done the good stuff.
I was getting around to doingthe boring stuff.
I really wasn't interested.
(27:56):
And back then changing careerwasn't something that people did
very often.
But I would say to anybodylistening to this live your life
to the fullest.
If you feel you want to changecareer, then commit to it.
You know, and it can be done.
Because if I, if I, can get alaw degree but it can't be done,
I mean that must be, true.
(28:21):
You just have to have thecourage to make that jump.
And I knew.
Because I'd done some summerwork in the local procurator
fiscal's office, I knewgenerally what it was I was
looking for Boy.
Did I want to do it?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
And what was that?
What were you looking for?
To become a prosecutor to takethe bad guys and put them away
absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It's quite handy.
I think you know yeah, argumentargumentative skills yes, well,
I never lost a trial.
I didn't do that very manytrials, but I never lost them
well, that's good, I find myselfworking in homicide cases and
latterly cold cases.
I did cold cases for the bestor homicide for the best part of
(29:06):
10 or 11 years and I did coldcases for 4 or 5 of those.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
You've regaled me with stories of samurai swords
in Glasgow and all kinds of madstuff.
What sort of stuff did you seeduring your time?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
So the bulk of the prosecuting work is unremarkable
.
It's minor assaults, thefts,you know, drink drivers, whats
drink drivers what else?
You know, lots of ordinarystuff.
And that stuff has to be done.
There's no two ways about it.
Society requires you to upholdthe rule of law, and that's
(29:49):
every bit as valid a way to goabout it.
It's working, honestly,absolutely.
I worked in Edinburgh andGlasgow predominantly.
The level of violence of peoplein Glasgow is absolutely
breathtaking.
I know you've lived there soyou'll have your own insight.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I survived Glasgow.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I need a T-shirt that says I survived Glasgow.
I used to characterize homicidebetween Glasgow and Edinburgh,
as in Edinburgh your averageassassin gave the hospital a
chance Shit, In Glasgow not somuch.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Not so much oh man.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
They were setting about each other wholesale.
As you mentioned, SamuraiSwords, they finished the job on
the spot.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Is this gang stuff?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, mostly gang and drugs and, in Glasgow, the
sectarian elements that younever, ever read in a police
report Guys in green and whiteshirts chasing guys in blue
shirts up the street with knivesand then getting chased back
down again by the guys in theblue shirts, but this time
there's more of them and theyhad more knives.
One of the youngsters trippingup and getting kebabbed on the
(31:09):
street, I mean real nasty stuff,feeling unpleasant.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, real nasty stuff.
Feeling unpleasant, yeah, sortof stuff.
I mean we hear about stuffanecdotally living in Glasgow
and it can be, you don't?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
some of it feels embellished but from your
experience not so much no, notin my experience, much as
journalists like to sellnewspapers, or did I?
Don't know anymore, probably,but actually the public don't
have their stomach for thedetail.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Detail's far worse than you could ever imagine.
You know, and actually you knowthere are people who get
pleasure out of the moresalacious detail they've got,
the better, but actually not ifyou're standing in a stairwell
(32:08):
with an 18-year-old at your feetwho's just been stabbed 70
times and that stairwell smellslike a nabatoir and his mother
screaming at the top of hervoice.
Nothing to be had there.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
But in saying all that, you made the leap, you
succeeded in your second career.
No regrets, clearly.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Have I got regrets?
I have regrets that I didn'tstudy law sooner.
Believe it or not because I hada pretty interesting career as
a nurse.
I regret.
I think I could have been abetter fiscal, probably a better
nurse and a better fiscal.
You know, sometimes you spendso long doing the thing that you
(32:57):
kind of it's not that Istagnated, but you know
repetition, you find comfort inrepetition.
I think it's looking back.
I think I was comfortable insome jobs for too long.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, you weren't being challenged enough.
Yeah, kept on your toes.
Interesting, interesting.
I think I would have been abetter fiscal.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
There are certain things in my career that I know
I could have done better, and Iwish I had.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
I do.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
But you know, I also think I could be a better
husband and father.
You know, there's nothingremarkable about this.
I'm just a human.
You know, sometimes I make gooddecisions.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
It can all be better.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Brilliant.
Well, let's just bring us on tothe final part here.
Just, it kind of is a, I guess,a look back, you know.
I mean you look back at yourcareer.
You kind of just set it there.
I mean you feel regret.
But you must feel other thingsas well.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
When you look back on your as a, I feel great huge,
great, huge gratitude to, toirene and the kids for
supporting me through it yeah Ididn't give me the chance to
study law and because I was, Istudied at full time for two
years yeah, and you're notearning money night.
(34:14):
Well, I did knife shifts at theweekend.
Oh, I see, to try and earnmoney in the local care homes.
You know, it's me turning upwith one of my old uniforms on
and taking charge of a care home.
Wow, anyway, so gratitude.
(34:35):
I wish I'd done bettersometimes.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I mean if you're able to talk to yourself as a young
man at the age of 17,.
You would have said be a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
No, I would say, it doesn't matter what you want to
do, but commit to it and be thebest at it that you can.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
My dad was a car mechanic and whilst he never
made very much money, he was ahardworking guy.
He was a great car mechanic.
He used to work on racing carsand stuff and people used to
come to him from far and widebecause my dad could fit his
cars, yeah, and he loved it.
And he said to me it's an oldadage and I know lots of people
say this, but my father did saythis to me he said if you find
(35:28):
what you love doing in life,then do it, because you'll never
do a day's work in your life.
And that's how he saw it.
He gave me a card he fixed hewas in heaven.
And there were times in mynursing career and times as a
fiscal where I thought this isgreat.
(35:49):
You know, this is great.
This is what I want to do.
So it doesn't matter what youdecide to do, commit to it and
work hard, work hard.
Nobody ever had a satisfyingcareer.
Being half-hearted.
(36:10):
Maybe they would say they did,but I don't believe that.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I've always had the energy in my mind that nothing
worth having ever comes easy.
Yeah, I think that's quite trueas well.
I mean one of the things I kindof like it's a bit tricky with
you, a little bit, but I wantyou to try and imagine an
auditorium filled withprospective people for jobs.
(36:38):
You know they could be 14 yearolds.
You know trying to find their,find their interests and their
passions.
You know high school leavers, umuniversity graduates, people in
their 30s, whatever, try, tryand pitch your jobs to them one
at a time, if you don't mind,because usually it would just be
one job, but because you've hadtwo careers, I'm going to ask
(37:00):
you to do it twice.
So imagine you stand up andyou've got a minute maybe less
than a minute as long as youwant to say this is why you
should do this job, or this iswhy you shouldn't do this job,
or whatever you think.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Well, I suppose I would say can you imagine a life
where you wake up in themorning and you pull on a
uniform and it associates youwith the best of people and you
spend the day making adifference to other people's
lives?
That you could have a lot offun, a lot of fun, a lot of
(37:36):
laughs in the process, be scaredand challenged, yes, but the
time you get home and take youruniform off, you think that was
a day.
And nursing, especially traumanursing, gives you that.
You know your while's alwaysshort of time, usually not got
(38:00):
enough time to eat, people inyour face dying in spite of you,
and then sometimes savingpeople and dealing with their
families, and so on and so forth.
For all the challenging thatthat is, that's the kind of
challenge you want in your life.
And if that's the kind ofchallenge you want in your life,
and if that's for you, I wouldsay, become a trauma nurse,
(38:25):
because it's a hell of a ride.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
It's an understatement in your case.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
I think it's a hell of a ride.
And what?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
about criminal law.
Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
My life as a prosecutor and I'm quite proud
of this.
You'll be able to tell my voice.
I worked on a notorious coldcase in Edinburgh where two
young girls were mugged up bytwo guys.
It became known as the World'sEnd Murders.
(38:58):
Look up, it's fascinating.
That's another one.
You can watch Endless Programson, by the way, if you've got
nothing to do with your time.
So I worked on that for a year.
We got a guy called Sinclairgot was found guilty of the
murder of the two girls and hegot the longest prison sentence
(39:22):
ever handed out in Scotland,which was great because you had
to keep this going off thestreets forever because he was
an awful, awful man.
But the following week afterthat case but the following week
after that case I was asked togo to Aberdeen University to
(39:44):
lecture on the world's endmurders and my son, david had
asked me if I would do it he wasstudying forensic science at
the time and eventually his Iwould do it.
He was studying forensicscience at the time and
eventually his guy in charge ofhis course asked me if I'd come
speak to the course about it.
I said fine.
(40:04):
So I got permission to use allthe graphics you know from the
presentation of the trial.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
And I said alright.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I'll do that.
I think this will be a bit of ablast.
I'll go out for a pint withDavid afterwards, maybe time.
I'll do that.
I think this will be a bit of ablast.
I'll go out for a pint withDavid afterwards, maybe time
well spent.
What I didn't know when Iturned up was there was 200
people in the main lecture inthe university, including the
rector and all the various otherprofessors and stuff and me and
(40:34):
I had the absolute privilege oflecturing my son on what I did
and what was a notorious case atthe time.
It still bears the reading andI talked non-stop.
This will come as no surpriseto you.
I talked non-stop for two and ahalf hours.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Jeez, and they didn't mind, presumably.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
So if I would say to anybody wanting to become a
prosecutor, be sure, it's whatyou want, and when you get there
, don't hold back.
And sometimes you get to dothings that make you feel so
good about, because actually, ina very real way, you make the
world a better place, perhapsjust with a few people or a
(41:21):
small town or a village, andsometimes on a bigger stage than
that.
If that does it for you, that'sthe job for you.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Brilliant.
What a great place to leave it.
Tony, thank you so much foryour time.
Appreciate it.
Pleasure and to see you, asalways.
Okay, that is it for Tony'sincredible story.
Thank you so much for listening, guys.
Another huge thanks to Tony fortaking the time to chat with me
(41:55):
.
For photos, links and more aboutthis episode, head to no
ordinary mondaycom and look forthe episode page.
You can also find us on all ofour socials.
We are facebook, instagram,linkedin and more.
Just look for no ordinarymonday.
You can also search for us onlinktree.
Check us out and come and jointhe conversation.
(42:17):
Coming up next week, I have gotanother great episode for you
guys.
I speak to conflictcinematographer michael downey.
Michael and I have actuallyworked together a few times over
the years.
Um, we chat about loads ofgreat stuff how he fell into
journalism in egypt during thearab spring and his experiences
in Kiev, ukraine, as theRussians first invaded.
(42:38):
It's really, really crazy stuff.
So please subscribe now so youdon't miss out.
If you have questions or wantto share your own career story,
get in touch via our socials.
You can also email helloH-E-L-L-O at noordinarymondaycom
or you can use the Submit yourStory page on our website and if
(42:58):
you enjoyed this episode,please do two really quick
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This episode was produced,hosted and edited by me, chris
(43:20):
Barron.
Thank you all for listening andhave a great Monday everyone.
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