September 8, 2025 • 53 mins
What drives someone to pick up a camera and head straight into the world's most dangerous conflicts? Michael Downey has made a career of documenting history's pivotal moments from the front lines, filming for major news outlets in war zones across the Middle East, Ukraine, and beyond.
In this gripping conversation, Michael takes us through his remarkable journey from an Arabic-studying university student to accidentally breaking a major story with the Muslim Brotherhood just before Egypt's Arab Spring. That lucky break launched him into a 14-year career that's placed him at the center of global conflicts, from the fall of Mubarak to the early terrifying days of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Michael's account of being in Kyiv when the first bombs fell at 3am on February 24th, 2022 offers a raw, unfiltered window into modern warfare. He describes the surreal experience of navigating an emptying city, feeling buildings shake from nearby strikes, and narrowly avoiding a rocket that missed his rental car "by about six inches." His matter-of-fact descriptions of assessing danger—"you don't have to worry until you can feel the buildings shake"—reveal the psychological adaptations necessary to function in such environments.
Beyond the adrenaline-fueled moments, Michael thoughtfully explores the deeper aspects of his work: how he compartmentalizes trauma, the guilt of being able to leave when locals cannot, and witnessing how history gets written and sometimes rewritten by those in power. His perspective on finding meaning in dangerous work while maintaining mental health offers insights that extend far beyond journalism.
Whether you're fascinated by global events, documentary filmmaking, or extraordinary career paths, Michael's story demonstrates what it means to have "a front seat to history" and the profound responsibility that comes with it. Subscribe now to hear more remarkable career journeys on No Ordinary Monday.
If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a five-star rating and review, and tell a friend about the show.
WANT TO BE A GUEST? You can submit your own career story through our website at noordinarymonday.com or email us at hello@noordinarymonday.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
It's 3am on February 24th 2022, kiev, ukraine.
For weeks, the world haswondered if Russia would invade,
and tonight the wait is over.
The airport is bombed.
Citizens panic and evacuate thecity, but as many flee, some
(00:27):
are staying to do their job.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
You know you'd see the tracers going explosions and
you start, you learn to likeyou don't have to worry until
you can feel the buildings shake, when that's, if you start
feeling the shaking, then it'sgetting close and it's like all
right, you know might be a bitworried.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
For most of us, war is just a headline.
For Michael Downey, it's wherehe sees through his camera lens,
standing on the front lines tobring these stories to the world
.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of no Ordinary Monday.
(01:09):
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I am your host, chris Barron,and each week I sit down with a
guest whose job is far fromordinary.
We explore how they got there,what it's really like behind the
scenes, and then they'll deepdive into the single most
(01:31):
unforgettable experience oftheir career.
Our guest this week is someonewho doesn't just watch history
unfold, he captures it.
His office is often in a warzone or some other far-flung
place, giving a voice tocivilians, soldiers and anyone
else impacted by conflict.
Michael Downey is a conflictcinematographer and director of
photography who has built acareer filming in difficult
conditions, sometimes in theline of fire.
(01:51):
His camera has documentedconflicts in the Middle East,
ukraine and beyond.
Michael and I have workedtogether a couple of times on
documentary projects.
He's really a fantastic guy tohave on a shoot, not just
because he's talented, but alsobecause he's full of amazing
stories, and I'm reallydelighted he agreed to come on
the podcast, as you heard inthat intro.
(02:12):
Michael's big story takes usback to the early days of the
Ukraine war and his experiencescapturing those events.
So stay tuned for a realbehind-the-scenes look at what
it's like to be a conflictcinematographer and what it
takes to capture history.
You're listening to no OrdinaryMonday.
Let's get into the show.
Michael Downey, welcome to thepodcast.
(02:41):
How are you doing Good?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Very good, thank you for having me when are you at
the moment?
I'm in LA right now,house-sitting, watching the dog
and working on an edit.
I was just shooting in theSonoran Desert along the Mexico
border for a little over a monthWell, like seven weeks.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Nice Immigration stuff.
I'm guessing All the stuff hottopics in the news yeah, exactly
never.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Never a dull moment nice.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, I was going to say this is actually kind of
unusual for us, because you'reusually sitting next to me
behind the camera as we'reinterviewing someone else, but
actually the the roles arereversed today and you're the
one at the uh at the end of thecamera being interviewed.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
yeah, exactly, it is a bit strange actually have you
been.
I'd be the one going, chris,like no stop, we've got to cut,
like the sound's off, you know,or something.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, the sound's off Now I don't have to do any of
that.
Yeah, yeah, have you beeninterviewed before?
Just out of curiosity.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, just out of curiosity.
Oh yeah, I mean, I mean likenew stuff.
You know like uh yeah for cnnand bbc after you know something
happened in the middle east orukraine, you know a rocket
attack or something doing lives.
So yeah, pretty, pretty used toit nice.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, actually, just, we should just say that you and
I have, um, I think the thelast time that we saw each other
in the flesh was probably on aminefield somewhere in an
undisclosed location, butactually, um, the first time we
saw each other was on a shoot inan ice cave in italy, um, which
I think was very much.
What's what's interesting aboutthat is because that was very
(04:20):
much my comfort zone dangling ona rope in in a cave somewhere,
and that was very new to you atthe time.
And then the second projectthat we did together was vice
versa.
You know, we were kind of in aa more war-torn environment.
Uh, that was much more yourcomfort zone and less so mine
yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I mean, yeah, it's, uh, that uhingarella, yeah, you
know, rappelling down, what wasit, I don't know.
300 meters, it was like 200meters, yeah, yeah, that final
rappel, like when you came outof the ice plug, that literally
took my breath away andeverything in your head.
When you came off that littleice chute, because it was
(05:01):
basically a tunnel that waterhad made, and then it just spits
you out shoot, because it wasbasically a title that water had
made.
And then it just spits you out.
Um, you know, if you weren't ona rope, if you slipped, it
would basically be like abumping slide and then just
shoot you off to your death.
But like, yeah, pushing off ofthat was everything in your
brain is telling you like, don'tdo that, don't do that, that's
crazy.
So, um, yeah, I got, you knowthat was it's.
It was fun being a little bitmore out of my comfort zone, you
(05:24):
know, for once on the shoot,but yeah, no, it's great yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So I guess I'd like, obviously for folks.
I usually play the sort ofdirecting and producing role in
here, using the cinematographeron some of these projects, but I
guess you know those kinds ofprojects like documentary
science, factual stuff.
That's not the only sort ofstring to your bow.
I guess.
If you were to describe whatyou do for a living to folks,
(05:48):
how would you?
What's the best way to describewhat you do?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I mean it's a, it's a mix of things because, yeah,
some of it is.
You know these, thesedocumentary, uh, you know series
, uh or features that are morehighly controlled.
But you know, with some of thestuff I do, you know covering
conflicts, you know I've coveredthe Middle East for 14 years
(06:14):
for BBC, channel 4, new YorkTimes Vice.
You know Libya, syria, lebanon,iraq.
You know very unpredictable andyou're hitting the ground
running and getting yourbearings and figuring out you
know what's happening, what'sthe story, get a lay of the land
and, yeah, it's really.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
It can be very, very intense, very high pace, so yeah
, I guess you know a lot of dopsor cinematographer, director of
photography or cinematographerlike you have the luxury of,
like you know, time, space,getting the beauty shots like.
But you're not just getting theshots, like you've probably got
to have.
Like, as you said you, you mayor may not even have a producer.
(06:59):
You're kind of set you get, youget a.
You basically get a phone call.
Stuff is happening in aparticular location.
Here's a plane ticket, packyour kit, get to the location
and then like what happens fromwhen you get off the plane.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Usually, yeah, I, uh.
So I mean, sometimes it's youknow I'll get a call and it's
like you.
You know, can you go in thenext few hours, jump on a plane?
Because something's happened,like over a year ago there was
an earthquake in Morocco and NewYork Times called and said can
you go?
You know, right away?
(07:34):
So Went there, had a translatorand it was basically just Going
around.
You know, I had to find adriver.
So you're landing on the groundtrying to sort out basic
logistics and things and thenthinking, well, we got to get
out there, like right away, andkind of driving around the atlas
(07:55):
mountains, which you know,roads are destroyed, there's
landslides, just complete chaos,and you're trying to figure out
how to get around all that.
And you know, still thinking,you know we got to get the story
.
Part of it is, you know you canmake.
You know the obstacles aregetting the place part of the
story.
But you're like, okay, well,that that only fills a very
(08:18):
small part of it.
Now we actually have to get tothis village, we have to talk to
people, have to talk to rescueworkers.
You know, yeah, um, so it's,yeah, it's, it's always it's a
little bit stressful, to say theleast.
You know, and then and then,when you're done shooting, you
know, driving back on a reallybumpy road, you know, and you're
kind of, you see rocks tumblingoff and it's, yeah, um, a
(08:42):
little freaky, but you're tryingto edit in the car on the way
back and you know it's becauseyou have to.
You know it's, yeah, um, alittle freaky, but you're trying
to edit in the car on the wayback and you know it's because
you have to.
You know it's news, so you'vegot to get get things filed and
sent pretty quickly, um, yeah,yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
And I guess the other thing you mentioned slightly
earlier is that you know some ofthe times when you're working
you, you might be in conflict,you know.
So either you are under umdirect threat to your life or
your well-being or you're seeingdirect threats happening to
other people.
You might see some really sortof rough stuff from time to time
.
How do you deal with that kindof aspect of the job?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
um, you know, I think , doing it for so long, you, I
mean the, the way I see it isit's.
It might be similar of how,like a doctor or a surgeon, you
know, dealing with something isyou've got a job to do and
you've you know you're that?
(09:39):
That's real, that's really it.
You just compartmentalize andsee it that way, I think also, I
mean, for me, filming it helpsa lot because you're seeing it
through the camera.
You know it's not like you'rethere witnessing it.
Yeah, exactly, it's not likeyou're just there and part of it
, you're documenting it andyou've got this filter Also.
(10:03):
It definitely helps.
You know it's.
It's a place that's not home.
Um, I mean, when I went back tobeirut because I'd lived there
for eight years, documenting theblast, that was really
difficult because myneighborhood was destroyed.
You know, everything that I'dknown was pretty much wiped out.
So that was a very differentexperience than normally.
(10:25):
You're going, you know, to, toconflicts around the world.
Where you're, you don't haveany, you're not a stakeholder in
it, you're not from there, you,you're, you're fortunate enough
to.
When you're done, you leavethat, go far away and you're
back in.
You know the safety and comfortof your home.
So that makes it easier, too,that it's not you don't have
(10:45):
this emotional attachment to aplace.
Um, so you know, yeah.
And then I mean, the thingabout that kind of work is, the
more you do it, stuff doesn'tphase you anymore you know you
just the first time it was quiteshocking but then yeah, yeah
and then, yeah, then you get,you just get more acclimatized
(11:06):
to it.
You know, I think it's likeit's really unfortunately, it's
like anything, you know.
Uh, after a while you're justkind of like okay, you know it's
same with going to a conflict,a conflict zone where, if you
know, there's shelling orthere's bombing.
Uh, you're just kind of likewell okay, you know, you don't
don't, you don't, you start, youlearn to like.
(11:28):
You don't have to worry untilyou can feel the feel the
buildings shake when.
That's when, if you startfeeling the shaking, then it's
getting close and it's like allright.
You know might be a bit worriedbut um yeah yeah, yeah, and I
mean I think it's also it's, um,you know, a bit of a mental
kind of defense mechanism,because if every time you were
(11:51):
kind of overwhelmed and shotlike you, you couldn't do your
job, so, yeah, you, you do kindof have to adapt and get used to
that too, but it's, it'sproblematic too, because that
stuff's not normal.
It's, it's problematic toobecause that stuff's not normal.
Yeah, so you don't you want tobe, you know, cognizant of the
fact that this is not normal.
(12:12):
They try not to completelynormalize this or act like oh
it's fine, it's like no, youneed.
You do need, um, you know,sometimes to assess things and
kind of unpack and stuff andprocess things a bit but not
letting it like impede your workin the moment, like just sort
(12:32):
of like package that away todigest later.
Exactly, yeah, while you'reworking, while you're there,
it's like, uh-uh, you know, donot unpack and process there.
You know, get the job, get thejob done and then after do a
debrief.
I mean, now it's becoming, youknow, it was a bit taboo, I
think, even just 10 years ago,where people, people wouldn't
(12:55):
talk about mental health in theindustry or anything, or, and
now it's become much more commonfor these big organizations to
have mandatory like debriefingsand be like, hey, you know, uh,
you're good, I know, but youknow we want you to talk to.
Everyone's gonna have, you know, a session or a few with um,
(13:18):
you know the, the companytherapist or you know whoever.
Yeah, because, yeah, it's likethat stuff definitely can, over
time, obviously have an effect,seeing just repeated traumatic
events and stuff.
You know, I mean there's somepeople that deal with it and you
know are healthy with how theydeal with it, and then there's
(13:39):
others, you see that, like youknow, do not handle it well,
like they're just, we'll findevery vice and excessiveness and
, yeah, just kind of like slowly, you know, destroying
themselves, which is not, yeah,not very healthy?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I mean, in saying all this stuff, like obviously you
know you guys have seen and donesome and witnessed some crazy
things, but at the end of theday I mean, do you love your job
, do you love what you do?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
yeah, I mean it's uh, I've always said it's.
It's like you have a front seatto history, um I mean being all
these places you know.
Um ukraine, when uh r you know,did the full-scale invasion in
2022.
I mean just shocking moments,you know, obviously a changing
(14:32):
point for this century.
And then you've got, you know,the Arab Spring in Egypt, in
Cairo, when Mubarak fell, thatwas, you know I was on stage in
Tahrir Square, you know therewas, I think, 2 million, 3
million people all around there.
(14:53):
It was absolutely incredible.
So you, yeah, getting to seethese moments firsthand and,
yeah, and then seeing how thosemoments then are portrayed or or
documented or, you know,written about in news, books and
things, and you see, yeah, you,you can see how, how history is
(15:17):
written.
And then you, you know, whenyou're there for it, you're like
okay yeah, I mean, but it's,it's missing you know, you see
the some of the nuances andstuff that are how how a very
complex event or situation willget boiled down into a headline
or a little bit and be overlysimplified, you know or how you
(15:39):
know when, when one side wins,how history gets written in
their favor.
You know, um, I mean, like, uh,muhammad morsi was the
democratically elected presidentof egypt, was ousted in a coup
by president sisi, um, you knowmilitary coup that, uh, you know
(16:01):
, all of us, you seeing thatfirsthand of how history was
kind of rewritten by cc and thewinning side, you know that it
was yeah yeah, that was pretty,pretty interesting uh, all right
.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So before we go into your big story, I kind of want
to know your origin story.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You know, starting from, I guess, what you wanted
to be as a kid and how you gotinto what you're doing today oh
god, what did you know when Iwhen, when I was a kid I mean
well, it's when I was five Iwanted to be a paleontologist.
Nice, you think you thinkdinosaurs and and then you learn
(16:42):
what paleontology actually isand it's, you know, not long in
the field.
Well, you know, it's like alittle bit of time in the field
digging very carefully, not not?
You know, it's pretty tedious,and then the rest is, you know,
in labs and stuff.
So you know, as I got older, Iwas like park, yeah, yeah,
(17:07):
exactly um but yeah, so afterthat, after, after your
paleontology dream died after,yeah, after, after the five
years old, um, you know, I I,when I was, I think, like most
young people, I wasn't wasn'treally sure.
I thought, you know, I thought,as a senior in high school is
like, oh, I want to do business.
I knew I wanted to, I wanted totravel, um, I wanted something
international.
So I was just likeinternational business.
(17:29):
So, yeah, when I went to schoolat western washington uh
university, I started off thatthe plan do was doing um,
international business, um, andthen there were arabic classes.
So I studied arab, like, oh,you know, that could get me, get
me out there.
But it didn't take long.
(17:52):
I think it was the secondsemester, uh, my first
accounting class, where I waslike, yeah, no, no, no, this is,
this is not, this is not what Iwant to do at all.
Um, you know, and, and you know, the more you know, older I got
, you know a bit more wisdom,education and stuff.
I just realized like businessfor the sake of business just
(18:13):
wasn't interesting.
It wasn't, you know my, you knowmy goal in life, just making
money or whatever, um, and sothen you know, I, I just
studying arabic.
And it didn't take long, likeso, after you know it was my end
of junior year, I realized Iwas like, well, I need to.
(18:36):
I've been spending so much timeon arabic like I might as well
just major in this.
Otherwise, if I change majors,I'm gonna, I'm gonna be at
school forever.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah.
Um and you didn't have like alife goal at this point.
You were just like I'm stickingwith the Arabic Cause.
It's what I know best at thisparticular moment.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, it was just kind of like ah yeah, kind of a
bit nonchalant about it, likewell you know it's a bachelor's
degree.
Like you know, we'll see.
And then I ran out of Arabicclasses to take at Western
Washington University.
So I went to AmericanUniversity in Cairo and then I
(19:14):
was.
You know my minor wasinternational relations.
And then I was you know, myminor was international
(19:40):
relations.
So then I was, I was writing mythesis about the Muslim
Brotherhood in Egypt and Iremember I would, I would be
skipping out on a lot of myArabic classes to go to these,
like to make contact with theMuslim Brotherhood.
At the time they were semitolerated but still illegal.
So getting a hold of them, youknow, you'd like send an email.
They'd say call this guy, texthim, you know, figure out like
who you are, and stuff, and yeah, yeah.
Once they were like, oh, you'rea student one.
Oh, yeah, of course.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
So but you're American.
You weren't even Egyptian orArabic.
Do they not have a problem?
Speaker 2 (19:56):
with that?
no no no, yeah, it no, yeah, itwas fine.
I think, you know, generallythere's, you know, probably a
little bit of a suspicion oflike, oh, is this guy
intelligence?
But yeah, I, I was 20 years old, yeah, so you know, they're
like, you know they can like,this is an inexperienced kid,
(20:24):
you know, yeah, um, and they'relike, all right, we'll humor you
, we'll give you you know, we'llinterview you and stuff.
So I, so the question was moreabout, I mean, the thesis was
just like, basically about uh,correlation between uh muslim
brotherhood and its founding andthen where it is today.
And after I finished that, Iwas just kind of like I've got
this guy here.
He was um k Hamza, who was onthe Shura council, you know like
some of the leadership of theMuslim Brotherhood there, and I
(20:45):
was just thinking, you know, inthe bit of time I was in Egypt I
could tell how unhappy peoplewere with Mubarak and just the
state of things.
They would always say, you know,they'd be careful of how they
said stuff.
They'd be like mubarak, I hopehe sleeps and you're like, oh,
okay, that's uh, yeah,interesting way of putting it.
So I told him I was, you know,I was like, well, let's, let's
(21:08):
talk about, you know, the futureof egypt.
Um, mubarak's getting old whenhe dies, if there are free and
fair elections.
You know where do you stand on.
You know, uh, how secular wouldyour government be women's
rights, these things?
And just sat on it.
You know, I didn't thinkanything of it wasn't going to
be part of my, my thesis.
And then, uh, you know, I wasback, went back to to do my last
(21:32):
semester, um, at WesternWashington University and the
protests start happening inEgypt.
And you know I'd check withfriends.
They're like nothing willhappen.
But from January 25th, like the, by the 28th, it was like okay,
something's happening.
You know, this is pretty clearand I had never written anything
(21:56):
at all, ever been publishedanything like that.
And I just start, I just sendout a bunch of emails to various
papers and things, andWashington, the editor of the
Washington Post, was like well,you haven't, like this sounds
interesting, but you haven'twritten anything.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So you're a pigeon, I could go do this as a story.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Well, I said I already had.
This was when, like, everyonewas like whoa, what's?
because the mother muslimbrotherhood after a few days
joined the protests and theywere like, oh so, and nobody was
had anything from them yet, youknow, especially the inside
track, I'm, I'm sitting on it,yeah, and then, and I did a
follow-up interview, then youknow, talking with them and um,
(22:37):
so, basically, foreign, foreignpolicy, um, ran, ran, an article
, uh, you know that that I wrote, it was, it was a like I wrote
a little bit and then it wasjust like a transcript of the
interview.
Um, and then after that, likethe atlantic bbc time, all these
(23:00):
outlets you know, also likepicked it up.
So, yeah, it kind of went wild,but that's, you know, that's
the thing with this industry isat some point you've gotta, you
gotta jump in a bit over yourhead.
That's how you're gonna learn,you know, yeah, and and getting
getting that chance, as isalways, um, you know the key
part.
(23:20):
But, uh, so, while I was there,you know, I, you know I was like
, oh, you know, maybe I'll thisjournalism thing, like do some
more writing or stuff.
So I, I uh, I sent a cold emailto the editor at rolling stone.
I remember a friend was likethey're, you're crazy, like
you're you're not, you'vewritten one thing like come on,
(23:41):
yeah.
And then he wrote back and hewas like, yeah, you should write
for us.
So I did a like first pieceabout this egyptian musician,
tamer hosni um, who basicallysided with mubarak but then
tried to, you know, say oh I, oh, I didn't, I wasn't aware of
what was happening in Egypt andstuff and uh yeah, so that was
(24:04):
the first piece I did for him.
And then I started doing, youknow, just like longer features.
You know, in Lebanon I did abig feature on the war in Syria
and and then to kind of justkept progressing into then you
know video, because I started torealize that as a writer,
unless you're a staff writer,it's really hard to survive off
(24:30):
that, you know.
Yeah, so video was and it wasclear the way the industry is
going like video was, you knowthe future, at least if you're
going to, you know, make aliving off of it yeah, you know,
so, and then you just taughtyourself how to shoot yeah,
cameras and then just went outand did it yeah, self
(24:51):
self-taught, um, you know, wouldlearn by seeing other people do
things.
And yeah, it's really just kindof like trial and error.
You know, and you know the.
I think the part that took thelongest was knowing what's a
story and how to tell a story.
I remember, like you know, whenI was first first doing it,
(25:13):
hearing people say that like,well, that's not a story,
michael, and I'd get angry, belike, yes, I know, and you're
like.
But then you realize you'relike, oh yeah, no, it's, it's
not.
Yeah, and an event happening isnot a, not really a story.
You know it's.
You gotta have an arc, yougotta have characters and really
you think about it.
So that took that took a whileto get good at seeing the story,
(25:35):
how to tell it, thinking activescenes and stuff, um and and
not getting so caught up with.
I remember, like, early on, youknow you're thinking, oh, I
need all this gear, I need thefanciest gear, I need the nicest
stuff and things you're like noyou don't like.
You just need the right for theright job, like the right thing,
but most importantly, just youbetter have that story and you
(25:57):
could do anything with you knowwhatever.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Really so, as you know, um, I always ask guests to
come on the podcast and tell mea one big beautiful story to
use, to use common parlance withthe uh, what's going on the
states right now?
But no, to come on the podcastand tell us one significant
career story.
(26:20):
You know that really sort ofstands out, um, in all their
experience.
So what would you say?
Um, that story would be in sortof start us from the beginning
and take us from there.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah.
So I guess a big I meanobviously a very big moment was
covering the Ukraine war fromthe New York Times it was, I
think I first had the call, itwas early January and it was
becoming clear that Russia waspreparing for an invasion.
(26:53):
That or it was a huge bluff,but the longer, the closer, more
time went on, it was like itwas pretty clear that this isn't
a bluff, this is most likelyhappening.
So, yeah, early January Ientered New York Times calls and
(27:13):
basically we're planning on,you know, if this invasion
happens, this full-scaleinvasion, you know, and how
would we cover it?
What's the plan?
So I did a little bit ofresearch and, you know, laid out
some stuff and then, well, Iguess it was three weeks before
the war started, you know, flewinto Kiev and then, you know,
(27:34):
went, went, flew into Kiev andand then, uh, you know, kind of
arrived, um, worked with, uh,had a local producer there, um,
thomas Rotushny, and he wasfantastic, and we basically, you
know, just started looking atways to tell, tell the story of
what's happening and, you know,is the invasion going to happen
(27:58):
and what is this all reallyabout?
So, and this was the first timeI'd been to ukraine.
So obviously I'm I'm I'mrelying heavily on on taras for
this, because before you're inthe middle east.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
At least you could speak like the local language,
you knew what was going on andyou can get the exactly subtle
inferences and the interviewsand the conversations and the
conversations and navigatingsituations.
But you were kind of like, uh,this is, this is out your
comfort zone totally, totallyalien.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, but it was.
It was also refreshing.
I mean it's first time you know, covering a war, where, if you
know there's snow and winter andjust everything, everything
looks, everything's completelydifferent than what you're used
to just before you go into that,like when you jump on the plane
and you know you're going intopotential conflict zone.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Like are you?
Are you afraid for your life atany point?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I think the worst part is just before you leave,
like there's the, it's likeyou'll be a bit nervous, like
leading up to it.
Once you're there, it's fine,it's all like.
You know the the too much timeto think and sitting there
waiting is always the worst.
But then, once you're there,you're yeah, you're good, busy,
um, yeah, I mean they'reobviously like when we got there
(29:13):
, it's like things aresemi-normal.
I mean there's signs ofpreparation of war and
everything you know at the.
You know, uh, we'd be filmingwith, uh, you know, the us
military, british militaryflying in c-17s, c-130s full of
weapons and offloading that, andyou, everyone knew like
(29:35):
something's, something's brewingand coming, but for the most
part it's, you know, stillstrangely normal until until it
isn't.
You know, uh, and so we werewe'd be doing various stories
about.
You know the, the, the kind oflike macro stuff that that you
know a lot of this is about.
(29:55):
You know it's about russian gasgoing to europe, um, ukraine
moving, obviously moving awayfrom russia wanting to join
europe, things like this.
And so you know you're doingyour normal job but like,
looking at, you know these werelonger features.
You know like four minutepieces and things, and then, all
the while, too, looking at,okay, if this starts, what's the
(30:19):
plan?
Um, some colleagues wanted tobe in the east.
Um, I, I decided, you know thatif, if this did happen, that it
was most likely going to be ablitz style, going for kiev,
probably going for zelinski,going for all the leadership,
and this was going to be a veryfast something could happen very
(30:41):
fast and the story wouldultimately be in Kiev, and that
you wouldn't, you'd want to bewary about being too far away,
where, if they blow throughthose lines now, you're in
Russian, you know behind Russianlines and they're probably,
you're probably going to bedetained.
As an American, you might be.
You'd probably be lucky enoughto be detained.
As an american, you might be.
You'd probably be lucky enoughto be detained and then deported
(31:01):
, to be released if you're, ifyou're ukrainian, you, you know
there's a lot of people thatkilled or disappeared.
You don't know what happened.
Um, so, yeah, as it got closer,I remember you know you start
doing the prep where you're like, okay, this is probably going
to happen.
So, um, you know, we're just.
You know you start doing theprep where you're like, okay,
(31:22):
this is probably going to happen.
So, um, you know we're justusing, you know, drivers around,
um, but we knew if the warstarted, a lot of these people
are going to get good, we'regoing to get called up to serve.
So I went and rented a carstocked up on fuel, food, water,
just everything, where you'relike, okay, if you know if we
get stuck for a while, you knowhave a few weeks of supplies, so
(31:43):
you're good.
And then, yeah, also have havethings, be mobile where, if you
have to walk out, you know youcan, you can do that too.
So, doing all that prep.
And then I remember it was whattwo nights before the invasion
started, putin had his long kindof just this long diatribe
(32:05):
where he's speaking about, youknow, the, the history of
ukraine and russia and therussian empire and everything.
And I remember hearing that andgoing, okay, this is happening,
this is absolutely happening.
And then, wow, um, someone at,uh, the us defense department
told us it was going to startaround like3 am I think it was 3
(32:29):
am on a wednesday.
And I remember waking up and,like you could hear, they bombed
the airport first, um, just afew airstrikes on the airport,
just, you know, disabling that.
And then that was the first day, that was at least around Kiev.
That was it.
Um, you know, they basicallythey started, started moving in
(32:51):
from Kharkiv, um, and up abovefrom Belarus and and uh, then
everyone was leaving Kiev.
Basically, they gave enoughtime for basically everyone,
loaded up in their cars andstarted driving to poland or or
moldova and, um, yeah, and thenyou've got fighter jets, you
(33:11):
know, kind of like screamingahead, just like going around
and you're kind of looking upgoing is you know, is that
ukrainian or is it russian?
Like where are we?
Well, what's what's happening?
Um, and the russians, theymoved incredibly fast.
Um, you know, at first theykind of did they.
They blew through a lot ofplaces, they I I think it was
(33:33):
the second night that theyarrived on the outskirts of kiev
.
Um, you know, you'd see thetracers going, explosions.
And I woke up one morning andthere was like a bit of a I'm
not sure what kind of munitionit was, I want to say a bit of a
(33:53):
cluster bomb, but it was right,like missed the car by like six
inches, right outside the hotel.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I came out and one of the guyswas like is this your car?
I was like yeah, he's like verylucky.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
I was like, oh, okay, yeah, as he proceeded to sort
of gently kick the cluster bombdown the road, a little bit like
a like a football, yeah yeah,and I was just like man.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I'm glad I got the full insurance on the car too.
Funny thing about that car isit stayed on.
I just kept renewing it for theNew York Times even after I
left and everyone used it.
That car I mean just got, it'sbeen through a lot.
At some point.
One of the guys messaged he sawthe car and it was like one of
(34:43):
the doors was just kind ofsmashed or something.
And he's guys like message hesaw the car and it was like one
of the doors was just like kindof like smashed or something.
And he's like hey, I saw thecar.
Are you guys okay?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Or like I'm like oh yeah it's all right, oh my God,
so wait.
So that was like an Avis orlike just a rental?
Speaker 2 (34:55):
car from a?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yeah, so I'd love would love to be the person that
takes that back to them and belike it's missing three doors,
it's riddled with bullets, it'slike can we just get the
insurance on this?
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I mean, all all they had said was just make sure you
don't take it into.
You know any of the, theRussian controlled areas of
Ukraine, you know, like Luhanskor Donetsk?
Yeah, cause they were like, oh,don't bring it to any conflict
zone.
But then after that it was like, well, everything's a conflict
zone, it's like there's nothingwe can do really.
Um, so, yeah, that, yeah, waking.
(35:28):
Those first first few days were, yeah, it was.
It was, yeah, like you're.
You're, you're in disbelief andyou're wondering, like who, how
you know which way is thisgoing to swing?
Also, at that time too is, likeyou know, it was very eerie.
Like most people were out ofKiev, most people have left,
(35:51):
yeah, so you're in the city justlike empty on its own, and
occasionally there would be, um,sometimes there would be, I'm
not sure if it was likeRussianussian, like sleeper cell
, or the other times, uh, wefound out that they would tell
russian soldiers like, oh,keeves, liberated, go ahead.
(36:12):
Like and and so you'd have, allof a sudden, just like a
five-car convoy just driving in,thinking everything's fine, and
then they just get completelylit up.
What so?
I remember that, oh, my, thathappened a few days into it.
Yeah, they, they were told likeoh, yeah, they've.
I think someone told them theysurrendered or it was fine.
They're like go, go ahead.
(36:32):
So they're just nonchalantlycruising in and just got
absolutely obliterated.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Um, are you filming any of this or is this like
through stories, through context?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
no, no, that that that was um, we found out.
You could hear the fightinggoing on, but and then it was
the next day, you could see allthe cars and everything, um, and
then, yeah, so we, you know, we, we got out of, we got out of
kiev, um, there was, it wasbasically the timing was, you
know, things were closing up,but but there was one way out.
(37:01):
You get kind of like throughthe south and um, so we went
like about 70 kilometers out ofthe city and um, then you know,
we arrive in this small littletown.
There's a little hotel we canstay at, kind of mom and pop bed
and breakfast place, and youknow they tell us like okay, at
(37:23):
8 pm we turn off the whole, thewhole town turns off their
lights.
So you know the russians can'tsee us, which I was like.
You know they've got radar andmaps and stuff.
You know this isn't world warii, the blitz in london, but
okay, fine, fine, you knowwhatever.
So you know it's like, okay,out of here.
You know, like rural areashould be fine.
I'm like go to take a shower.
(37:44):
I get out of the shower andthen all of a sudden, not far
away, a rocket, just boom, comesin the window, almost just like
pops open, and I, yeah, it wasreally, really shocking.
You're like whoa shit, you know, you get the sense of feeling
like, okay, we're out, we'resafe, it's good.
And then that happens.
And then, um, this uh, the uhold woman who was running the
(38:08):
place is banging on doorstelling people to come down, and
I don't have any clothes onalso.
She's opened the doors likecome, come, and I'm like, oh,
okay, all right, I'm like youknow what I'm, I'm gonna get
dressed.
I'd rather I'm, I'm you know ifI'm getting bald practical, but
I'm yeah, it's like I'm notgonna die naked and yeah, have,
yeah, and that image, uh there.
So yeah, but um, yeah, and thenyou know, getting making our
(38:36):
way to.
After that we decided to makeour way to levive, which is in
the west, and you know therussians weren't there.
So we went, you know, went,kept down south and then came up
, uh there.
So you go around where therussians were and um, and you're
just picking up stories as yougo picking up stories.
(38:56):
We go, like, we went to, likethere's the.
The last, the next place westayed was, uh, a children's
school.
Yeah, um, and you know, somepeople were sheltered there at
first.
When we pulled up, they'd likeeveryone was very wary of, like
you know, didn't trust anyonewho wasn't from you know they're
thinking are you know thesespies or whatever?
so you know, at first it was.
(39:18):
It was actually quite tensewhen we pulled up and then then,
once they figured out you knowwho we are and stuff, they were,
you know, very welcoming andkind of sheltered down there and
slept for the night, filmedsome stuff, then headed to
levive, uh, and you know fromthere film filming, uh, where
all the refugees, uh, you knowpeople, people are heading to
(39:39):
poland, hopping on trains,trying to get out, um, yeah,
it's, you know, is every nightyou're getting maybe four hours
of sleep, jeez, and but butyou're running on.
So, you know, so muchadrenaline and stuff and it's,
you know, quite spectacular.
So you're you, you don't feelthat, I guess, exhaustion until,
(40:03):
yeah, it takes a few weeks forfor then also to be like once.
It's always the, I think, thefirst two weeks of any conflict
or war always, you know, usuallythe most intense.
It's where the biggest pushhappens and then lines will, or
first month maybe, and thenthings will kind of more
solidify.
You know, like it's the, thepace slows a bit, it's chaotic,
(40:24):
um, and that's usually usuallythen when you start feeling like
exhausted.
So which I, you know, after thefirst month.
Then I switched over to theseries you and I worked together
on, but that was when then Iwent right from that to to the
arctic.
Uh, so you know, minus 40Celsius uh 45 Celsius and polar
(40:48):
bears, you know from from thewar in Ukraine to that.
So it was, uh, it was a reallyreally stark contrast between
the two.
Jeez, um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
So.
So with the Ukraine thing, likeyou were there for a month,
like I'm just curious, causethat's an evolving.
When you're doing news, it'slike an evolving situation and
like the I guess the editor kindof goes you've got enough
stories, come back.
Or is there like a set thingwe're going to send you out for
a month and then they don'treally want to keep you out any
longer than that because peoplestart getting, as you say, worn
(41:19):
out and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
No, I for for something like that.
It's just, I mean, we're doingsometimes a story a day for
every two days, like we're.
They're just like, just keepgoing as long as stuff's
happening, geez, um.
So there's lots, lots to do,you know, at first, at first
it's like dailies, like the.
You know, the first first daywas people fleeing Kiev and the
war starting.
(41:50):
The second day was, uh, civildefense forces, you know,
average citizens lining up toget weapons and you know, and
distributing that and peoplepreparing, you know, to defend
Kiev, uh.
And then third day was you knowa big uh, there was a big
rocket attack on a building, um,so you know that hit, and then
we run there.
So then it's you know a big uh,there was a big rocket attack
on a building, um, so you knowthat hit, and then we run there.
So then it's like the firstfirst bit of that stuff is
usually, you know, reactive Um.
(42:11):
And then, once things slow downa bit, then it's like, okay, we
can take more time, uh, um, soyeah, it's.
It's really, with that stuff,it's as long as stuff's
happening, you, you find way,you just keep, keep moving
around, keep finding stories.
There's always, alwayssomething to tell there, you
know.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
And so did you when you got recalled were you.
Did you get out through Poland?
Or how did you get out ofUkraine?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, we, um, we drove from Lviv to the border,
which was like an hour yeah andthen the line of cars was so
long, like we just got out andthen had to carry our stuff,
which, luckily, one of thesecurity guys was with me, john,
who, um, helped me carry mystuff, and he was, I mean, film
(43:01):
wise, you'd you'd know it waslike it was actually quite light
compared to what you knownormally you would have for film
shoots.
It was like I had one pelicancase, my big camera bag, tripod
and my backpack and a duffellike that.
You know, it was like sleepingbag and other stuff and things
for just general kind of if youhad to camp or survive.
(43:21):
Um, and he was, he was justlike what is all this stuff?
And I told him I was like john,this is, this is not a lot of
film, stuff like this isactually light.
But we had to carry it like Idon't know, it was like four
miles and it was like a kind oflike dirt, dirt road, just sort
of it was.
(43:43):
That was tough, and then soyou're slogging all this stuff
and then we get to the borderand obviously you know it's
thousands of people, yeah, andthey're, you know, trying to
process people and stuff.
I think we spent eight.
It took eight hours to getacross to the, to cross into
Poland, just you know,processing everyone, and we got
(44:07):
it like we ended up getting overthere at like 1am, something
like that, and then a guy droveus from the border to Warsaw
where stayed at the airporthotel.
So then I remember I went tosleep and I was so used to
hearing you know jets and things, you know fighter jets or the
(44:28):
airstrikes that at.
For when I first heard you knowone of the airplanes coming in
or like taking off, like that, Iimmediately jumped out of my
bed and then, like you know,because usually what you do it's
like you roll onto the floor,get, get in the bathroom, get
the you know the best cover youcan have, yeah, and I remember
just being like oh, and notknowing where I was.
And then all of a sudden I waslike oh wait, you're in warsaw,
(44:51):
you're out there, it's, it'sfine, it's fine but your your
body naturally, you know,doesn't.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Uh, yeah, it's just so conditioned to that after a
while that must be nuts, Like Iknow the feeling of like ending
a shoot and getting on a plane,but like for you, jumping on
that flight home, like it musthave been an immense feeling,
like reflecting on what you'dexperienced, Like what were you,
what were those emotions whenflying home.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, it's kind of like that's that's when you
start, like you process things abit.
You know it's.
It's kind of like that's that'swhen you start, like you
process things a bit.
You know it's it's kind ofoverwhelming.
Uh, there's definitely somerelief.
There's also, like you know you, you feel a bit of guilt that
you're, you're a lot, you're oneof your, your privilege that
you get to pick up and leave,you get to go home.
(45:39):
Your home isn't affected.
To go home, your home isn'taffected, you know, you get to
go back to a normal life,whereas, uh, you know the people
you've been working with andknow there and been speaking
with there, that that's theydon't get a leave, that's that
is their life now and you don'tknow what's going to happen or
change for them.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
So, yeah, it's, um, it's bittersweet, you know
there's it's definitely, uh, amix of emotions, that's for sure
what would you say like kind ofthe back of that or even any of
the projects you've done wouldbe like an ultimate career goal?
Would it be like winning anemmy or like, would it be more
important that, like a storythat you did sort of change the
(46:18):
course of government's decision,or something like that?
What would be sort of somethingthat would be the ultimate goal
for you in your career?
Speaker 2 (46:26):
yeah, I think you know awards are I forgot who
said this, but someone saidawards are like hemorrhoids
after a while every asshole getsone.
You know, and I've, I've gottena few and it's like it's, it's
nice to be recognized and you'relike, okay, great, like um, I
mean, obviously, you know,getting an oscar for a
documentary film would be prettygreat, yeah, but again, I think
(46:49):
I think like that's, it's still, you know, it doesn't really
change much, like your, yourgoal should be.
I mean, my goal is to tellgreat stories.
Uh, you know, I want to makefilms, I want to keep making art
and and, uh, telling, findingnew stories, finding, you know,
ways to lift up voices, that'syeah, that's, that's for me what
(47:15):
it's about nice and so it'sworth the risk.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Obviously, clearly I mean obviously there's the
freelancer as well, and it's notas with any cinematographer.
I know there's a hugeinvestment in equipment that's
required um, which you know isnot it's not um cheap.
It's cheaper than it used to be, but it's still.
You've got to have a hugeinvestment there.
But I guess you get, you know,renumerated numerators are paid
(47:38):
well accordingly.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, I mean it's yeah when, when you're working,
you get paid.
Well, there's long periods.
You know it'll be intenseperiods of working and then lots
of downtime yeah you'redefinitely not.
You're not getting rich on this, that's for sure, like you know
.
I don't know anybody who doesit for, for, for money for the
money um.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
That's what I was, but um yeah, I just finally like
any advice for anyone thatwanted to is listen, to listen
to this uh episode and go on.
Given everything you said, likeyeah, I want to do that.
Like what, what advice wouldyou give anyone trying to jump
into it?
You?
Speaker 2 (48:12):
know, I think that I get a lot of people asking about
like, oh, you know, I want tobe a foreign journalist, or
conflict and stuff, and theythink that they've need a.
They need to like hop on aflight and flight and go across
the world to the hottest placeor wherever things are the most
intense.
But I'd say the first thingsfirst is focus on knowing how to
(48:37):
tell a story, and that there'sa lot of stuff around here
Especially I look at America nowthat there's a lot of stuff
around here, like, especially Ilook at america now, I'm like
I'm spending more time shootinghere.
Uh, because there's there's alot going on and it's it's
really, really important andit's a pretty key moment.
And you know, I think thatespecially, it's especially
(48:58):
helped having this otherperspective of being living
outside of the us, for, you know, over 15 years now, and you
know, being able to see thiswith fresh eyes, as when I come
here, like it's, this feels morelike covering a foreign country
.
That's weird, and so I so Ithink I think trying to tell
(49:18):
people say, if you know fromyour own country, like, try and
look, look at it that way,because there are stories all
around you there and start therefirst, and then, you know, make
the jump when the timing'sright.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Brilliant, brilliant.
All right, Michael MichaelDiney, thank you so much.
I mean, just before you jumpoff, I always like to say is
there anything you want to plug?
Any docs that have come outrecently that people can watch
any shows or even social media,they can follow you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Um, I asked.
One thing I'm terrible atactually is self-promotion.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Hey.
Well, I'm trying to give you aplatform.
Hey promote yourself.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
I know, I know I need to get.
I need to get way better atthat.
I mean, I post like maybe fourtimes a year on Instagram.
I'm just like, ugh, I'm one ofthose where I'm like just give
me the camera and just let memake something and then someone
else take care of that.
But you can check out mywebsite, michael-downeycom, or
on Instagram, michaeldowneyphoto, and, you know, occasionally
(50:21):
I'm putting updates on my workand stuff there.
You know, maybe I'll puttingupdates on my work and stuff
there.
You know, maybe I'll get.
I need to get a little bitbetter about that, Uh, but yeah,
yeah, I'd say that's, that'sreally it.
Um, you know there'll be somestuff coming out.
Um got the short film forchannel four.
Uh, that should be out in a fewweeks.
And then my short doc that I'vebeen doing in depth on
(50:45):
immigration situation with iceand activists and migrants that
um editing part of.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Hopefully we'll have a second shoot block and that I
assume will be out sometimeseptember, october yeah, maybe a
little bit later so and I wasgonna say that, uh, fanny
winstead, that Zingarella story,I think your showreel, the
first frame of your showreel, isin that cave.
I remember the drone Exactly.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Is the cave that went ?
Oh, that was such a blast tolight.
Uh, it looked.
Yeah, I loved that.
Unfortunately, that was thethat was the last shot that that
drone ever did before itcommitted suicide.
Yeah, yeah, that was wild.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Yeah, the drone just went berserk at something 200
meters down some kind ofmagnetic rock.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yeah, yeah, poor thing wasn't, I remember I
remember mateo being like stop,stop, you're hitting the wall.
I'm like I'm not doing it.
I'm, of course I would.
I know wouldn't repeatedlysmash the drone into the wall.
It's like it's doing it on itsown, poor drone man.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
It just couldn't handle being.
It's like I need a satellite totalk to you like that yeah,
brilliant, yeah, exactly cool.
All right, man, listen alwaysgreat chatting to you and
absolutely easy and stay safe.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
All right, thanks, take care stay safe.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
All right, thanks, take care.
And that is it for this week'sepisode.
I just want to say a massivethank you again to Michael for
taking the time to share hisexperiences and a massive thank
you to you all as well forlistening.
For photos, links and moreabout this episode, head to
knowordinarymondaycom and lookfor the episode page.
You can find us also on oursocials Facebook, instagram,
linkedin and more.
If you need help finding us, goto Linktree.
(52:32):
Our handle isknowordinarymonday.
Next week's episode is not onefor the faint hearted,
especially for anyone withclaustrophobia or fear of the
dark.
My guest is Dr Hazel Barton, aleading cave scientist and
expert caver.
She relives a near-deathexperience when she was deep
inside a cave which startedflooding due to a freak weather
(52:55):
event.
It's a really crazy story, sohit subscribe now so you don't
miss out on that episode.
If you have questions or wantto share your own career story
with us, we'd love to hear fromyou.
Please get in touch via oursocials.
Please get in touch via oursocials or you can email hello
H-E-L-L-O at noordinarymondaycomor use the submit your story
(53:18):
page on our website.
And if you enjoyed this episode, please do two really quick
things for us, click five starsand, if you have time, give us a
review, and the other thing istell a friend, that's it.
It really helps us grow.
The show attract more amazingguests and inspires new
listeners.
This show is produced, hostedand edited by me, chris barron.
(53:40):
Thank you so much for listeningand have a great Monday
everyone.
It's 3am on February 24th 2022, kiev, ukraine.
For weeks, the world haswondered if Russia would invade,
and tonight the wait is over.
The airport is bombed.
Citizens panic and evacuate thecity, but as many flee, some
(00:27):
are staying to do their job.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
You know you'd see the tracers going explosions and
you start, you learn to likeyou don't have to worry until
you can feel the buildings shake, when that's, if you start
feeling the shaking, then it'sgetting close and it's like all
right, you know might be a bitworried.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
For most of us, war is just a headline.
For Michael Downey, it's wherehe sees through his camera lens,
standing on the front lines tobring these stories to the world
.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of no Ordinary Monday.
(01:09):
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I am your host, chris Barron,and each week I sit down with a
guest whose job is far fromordinary.
We explore how they got there,what it's really like behind the
scenes, and then they'll deepdive into the single most
(01:31):
unforgettable experience oftheir career.
Our guest this week is someonewho doesn't just watch history
unfold, he captures it.
His office is often in a warzone or some other far-flung
place, giving a voice tocivilians, soldiers and anyone
else impacted by conflict.
Michael Downey is a conflictcinematographer and director of
photography who has built acareer filming in difficult
conditions, sometimes in theline of fire.
(01:51):
His camera has documentedconflicts in the Middle East,
ukraine and beyond.
Michael and I have workedtogether a couple of times on
documentary projects.
He's really a fantastic guy tohave on a shoot, not just
because he's talented, but alsobecause he's full of amazing
stories, and I'm reallydelighted he agreed to come on
the podcast, as you heard inthat intro.
(02:12):
Michael's big story takes usback to the early days of the
Ukraine war and his experiencescapturing those events.
So stay tuned for a realbehind-the-scenes look at what
it's like to be a conflictcinematographer and what it
takes to capture history.
You're listening to no OrdinaryMonday.
Let's get into the show.
Michael Downey, welcome to thepodcast.
(02:41):
How are you doing Good?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Very good, thank you for having me when are you at
the moment?
I'm in LA right now,house-sitting, watching the dog
and working on an edit.
I was just shooting in theSonoran Desert along the Mexico
border for a little over a monthWell, like seven weeks.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Nice Immigration stuff.
I'm guessing All the stuff hottopics in the news yeah, exactly
never.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Never a dull moment nice.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, I was going to say this is actually kind of
unusual for us, because you'reusually sitting next to me
behind the camera as we'reinterviewing someone else, but
actually the the roles arereversed today and you're the
one at the uh at the end of thecamera being interviewed.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
yeah, exactly, it is a bit strange actually have you
been.
I'd be the one going, chris,like no stop, we've got to cut,
like the sound's off, you know,or something.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, the sound's off Now I don't have to do any of
that.
Yeah, yeah, have you beeninterviewed before?
Just out of curiosity.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, just out of curiosity.
Oh yeah, I mean, I mean likenew stuff.
You know like uh yeah for cnnand bbc after you know something
happened in the middle east orukraine, you know a rocket
attack or something doing lives.
So yeah, pretty, pretty used toit nice.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, actually, just, we should just say that you and
I have, um, I think the thelast time that we saw each other
in the flesh was probably on aminefield somewhere in an
undisclosed location, butactually, um, the first time we
saw each other was on a shoot inan ice cave in italy, um, which
I think was very much.
What's what's interesting aboutthat is because that was very
(04:20):
much my comfort zone dangling ona rope in in a cave somewhere,
and that was very new to you atthe time.
And then the second projectthat we did together was vice
versa.
You know, we were kind of in aa more war-torn environment.
Uh, that was much more yourcomfort zone and less so mine
yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I mean, yeah, it's, uh, that uhingarella, yeah, you
know, rappelling down, what wasit, I don't know.
300 meters, it was like 200meters, yeah, yeah, that final
rappel, like when you came outof the ice plug, that literally
took my breath away andeverything in your head.
When you came off that littleice chute, because it was
(05:01):
basically a tunnel that waterhad made, and then it just spits
you out shoot, because it wasbasically a title that water had
made.
And then it just spits you out.
Um, you know, if you weren't ona rope, if you slipped, it
would basically be like abumping slide and then just
shoot you off to your death.
But like, yeah, pushing off ofthat was everything in your
brain is telling you like, don'tdo that, don't do that, that's
crazy.
So, um, yeah, I got, you knowthat was it's.
It was fun being a little bitmore out of my comfort zone, you
(05:24):
know, for once on the shoot,but yeah, no, it's great yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So I guess I'd like, obviously for folks.
I usually play the sort ofdirecting and producing role in
here, using the cinematographeron some of these projects, but I
guess you know those kinds ofprojects like documentary
science, factual stuff.
That's not the only sort ofstring to your bow.
I guess.
If you were to describe whatyou do for a living to folks,
(05:48):
how would you?
What's the best way to describewhat you do?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I mean it's a, it's a mix of things because, yeah,
some of it is.
You know these, thesedocumentary, uh, you know series
, uh or features that are morehighly controlled.
But you know, with some of thestuff I do, you know covering
conflicts, you know I've coveredthe Middle East for 14 years
(06:14):
for BBC, channel 4, new YorkTimes Vice.
You know Libya, syria, lebanon,iraq.
You know very unpredictable andyou're hitting the ground
running and getting yourbearings and figuring out you
know what's happening, what'sthe story, get a lay of the land
and, yeah, it's really.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
It can be very, very intense, very high pace, so yeah
, I guess you know a lot of dopsor cinematographer, director of
photography or cinematographerlike you have the luxury of,
like you know, time, space,getting the beauty shots like.
But you're not just getting theshots, like you've probably got
to have.
Like, as you said you, you mayor may not even have a producer.
(06:59):
You're kind of set you get, youget a.
You basically get a phone call.
Stuff is happening in aparticular location.
Here's a plane ticket, packyour kit, get to the location
and then like what happens fromwhen you get off the plane.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Usually, yeah, I, uh.
So I mean, sometimes it's youknow I'll get a call and it's
like you.
You know, can you go in thenext few hours, jump on a plane?
Because something's happened,like over a year ago there was
an earthquake in Morocco and NewYork Times called and said can
you go?
You know, right away?
(07:34):
So Went there, had a translatorand it was basically just Going
around.
You know, I had to find adriver.
So you're landing on the groundtrying to sort out basic
logistics and things and thenthinking, well, we got to get
out there, like right away, andkind of driving around the atlas
(07:55):
mountains, which you know,roads are destroyed, there's
landslides, just complete chaos,and you're trying to figure out
how to get around all that.
And you know, still thinking,you know we got to get the story
.
Part of it is, you know you canmake.
You know the obstacles aregetting the place part of the
story.
But you're like, okay, well,that that only fills a very
(08:18):
small part of it.
Now we actually have to get tothis village, we have to talk to
people, have to talk to rescueworkers.
You know, yeah, um, so it's,yeah, it's, it's always it's a
little bit stressful, to say theleast.
You know, and then and then,when you're done shooting, you
know, driving back on a reallybumpy road, you know, and you're
kind of, you see rocks tumblingoff and it's, yeah, um, a
(08:42):
little freaky, but you're tryingto edit in the car on the way
back and you know it's becauseyou have to.
You know it's, yeah, um, alittle freaky, but you're trying
to edit in the car on the wayback and you know it's because
you have to.
You know it's news, so you'vegot to get get things filed and
sent pretty quickly, um, yeah,yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
And I guess the other thing you mentioned slightly
earlier is that you know some ofthe times when you're working
you, you might be in conflict,you know.
So either you are under umdirect threat to your life or
your well-being or you're seeingdirect threats happening to
other people.
You might see some really sortof rough stuff from time to time
.
How do you deal with that kindof aspect of the job?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
um, you know, I think , doing it for so long, you, I
mean the, the way I see it isit's.
It might be similar of how,like a doctor or a surgeon, you
know, dealing with something isyou've got a job to do and
you've you know you're that?
(09:39):
That's real, that's really it.
You just compartmentalize andsee it that way, I think also, I
mean, for me, filming it helpsa lot because you're seeing it
through the camera.
You know it's not like you'rethere witnessing it.
Yeah, exactly, it's not likeyou're just there and part of it
, you're documenting it andyou've got this filter Also.
(10:03):
It definitely helps.
You know it's.
It's a place that's not home.
Um, I mean, when I went back tobeirut because I'd lived there
for eight years, documenting theblast, that was really
difficult because myneighborhood was destroyed.
You know, everything that I'dknown was pretty much wiped out.
So that was a very differentexperience than normally.
(10:25):
You're going, you know, to, toconflicts around the world.
Where you're, you don't haveany, you're not a stakeholder in
it, you're not from there, you,you're, you're fortunate enough
to.
When you're done, you leavethat, go far away and you're
back in.
You know the safety and comfortof your home.
So that makes it easier, too,that it's not you don't have
(10:45):
this emotional attachment to aplace.
Um, so you know, yeah.
And then I mean, the thingabout that kind of work is, the
more you do it, stuff doesn'tphase you anymore you know you
just the first time it was quiteshocking but then yeah, yeah
and then, yeah, then you get,you just get more acclimatized
(11:06):
to it.
You know, I think it's likeit's really unfortunately, it's
like anything, you know.
Uh, after a while you're justkind of like okay, you know it's
same with going to a conflict,a conflict zone where, if you
know, there's shelling orthere's bombing.
Uh, you're just kind of likewell okay, you know, you don't
don't, you don't, you start, youlearn to like.
(11:28):
You don't have to worry untilyou can feel the feel the
buildings shake when.
That's when, if you startfeeling the shaking, then it's
getting close and it's like allright.
You know might be a bit worriedbut um yeah yeah, yeah, and I
mean I think it's also it's, um,you know, a bit of a mental
kind of defense mechanism,because if every time you were
(11:51):
kind of overwhelmed and shotlike you, you couldn't do your
job, so, yeah, you, you do kindof have to adapt and get used to
that too, but it's, it'sproblematic too, because that
stuff's not normal.
It's, it's problematic toobecause that stuff's not normal.
Yeah, so you don't you want tobe, you know, cognizant of the
fact that this is not normal.
(12:12):
They try not to completelynormalize this or act like oh
it's fine, it's like no, youneed.
You do need, um, you know,sometimes to assess things and
kind of unpack and stuff andprocess things a bit but not
letting it like impede your workin the moment, like just sort
(12:32):
of like package that away todigest later.
Exactly, yeah, while you'reworking, while you're there,
it's like, uh-uh, you know, donot unpack and process there.
You know, get the job, get thejob done and then after do a
debrief.
I mean, now it's becoming, youknow, it was a bit taboo, I
think, even just 10 years ago,where people, people wouldn't
(12:55):
talk about mental health in theindustry or anything, or, and
now it's become much more commonfor these big organizations to
have mandatory like debriefingsand be like, hey, you know, uh,
you're good, I know, but youknow we want you to talk to.
Everyone's gonna have, you know, a session or a few with um,
(13:18):
you know the, the companytherapist or you know whoever.
Yeah, because, yeah, it's likethat stuff definitely can, over
time, obviously have an effect,seeing just repeated traumatic
events and stuff.
You know, I mean there's somepeople that deal with it and you
know are healthy with how theydeal with it, and then there's
(13:39):
others, you see that, like youknow, do not handle it well,
like they're just, we'll findevery vice and excessiveness and
, yeah, just kind of like slowly, you know, destroying
themselves, which is not, yeah,not very healthy?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I mean, in saying all this stuff, like obviously you
know you guys have seen and donesome and witnessed some crazy
things, but at the end of theday I mean, do you love your job
, do you love what you do?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
yeah, I mean it's uh, I've always said it's.
It's like you have a front seatto history, um I mean being all
these places you know.
Um ukraine, when uh r you know,did the full-scale invasion in
2022.
I mean just shocking moments,you know, obviously a changing
(14:32):
point for this century.
And then you've got, you know,the Arab Spring in Egypt, in
Cairo, when Mubarak fell, thatwas, you know I was on stage in
Tahrir Square, you know therewas, I think, 2 million, 3
million people all around there.
(14:53):
It was absolutely incredible.
So you, yeah, getting to seethese moments firsthand and,
yeah, and then seeing how thosemoments then are portrayed or or
documented or, you know,written about in news, books and
things, and you see, yeah, you,you can see how, how history is
(15:17):
written.
And then you, you know, whenyou're there for it, you're like
okay yeah, I mean, but it's,it's missing you know, you see
the some of the nuances andstuff that are how how a very
complex event or situation willget boiled down into a headline
or a little bit and be overlysimplified, you know or how you
(15:39):
know when, when one side wins,how history gets written in
their favor.
You know, um, I mean, like, uh,muhammad morsi was the
democratically elected presidentof egypt, was ousted in a coup
by president sisi, um, you knowmilitary coup that, uh, you know
(16:01):
, all of us, you seeing thatfirsthand of how history was
kind of rewritten by cc and thewinning side, you know that it
was yeah yeah, that was pretty,pretty interesting uh, all right
.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So before we go into your big story, I kind of want
to know your origin story.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You know, starting from, I guess, what you wanted
to be as a kid and how you gotinto what you're doing today oh
god, what did you know when Iwhen, when I was a kid I mean
well, it's when I was five Iwanted to be a paleontologist.
Nice, you think you thinkdinosaurs and and then you learn
(16:42):
what paleontology actually isand it's, you know, not long in
the field.
Well, you know, it's like alittle bit of time in the field
digging very carefully, not not?
You know, it's pretty tedious,and then the rest is, you know,
in labs and stuff.
So you know, as I got older, Iwas like park, yeah, yeah,
(17:07):
exactly um but yeah, so afterthat, after, after your
paleontology dream died after,yeah, after, after the five
years old, um, you know, I I,when I was, I think, like most
young people, I wasn't wasn'treally sure.
I thought, you know, I thought,as a senior in high school is
like, oh, I want to do business.
I knew I wanted to, I wanted totravel, um, I wanted something
international.
So I was just likeinternational business.
(17:29):
So, yeah, when I went to schoolat western washington uh
university, I started off thatthe plan do was doing um,
international business, um, andthen there were arabic classes.
So I studied arab, like, oh,you know, that could get me, get
me out there.
But it didn't take long.
(17:52):
I think it was the secondsemester, uh, my first
accounting class, where I waslike, yeah, no, no, no, this is,
this is not, this is not what Iwant to do at all.
Um, you know, and, and you know, the more you know, older I got
, you know a bit more wisdom,education and stuff.
I just realized like businessfor the sake of business just
(18:13):
wasn't interesting.
It wasn't, you know my, you knowmy goal in life, just making
money or whatever, um, and sothen you know, I, I just
studying arabic.
And it didn't take long, likeso, after you know it was my end
of junior year, I realized Iwas like, well, I need to.
(18:36):
I've been spending so much timeon arabic like I might as well
just major in this.
Otherwise, if I change majors,I'm gonna, I'm gonna be at
school forever.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah.
Um and you didn't have like alife goal at this point.
You were just like I'm stickingwith the Arabic Cause.
It's what I know best at thisparticular moment.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, it was just kind of like ah yeah, kind of a
bit nonchalant about it, likewell you know it's a bachelor's
degree.
Like you know, we'll see.
And then I ran out of Arabicclasses to take at Western
Washington University.
So I went to AmericanUniversity in Cairo and then I
(19:14):
was.
You know my minor wasinternational relations.
And then I was you know, myminor was international
(19:40):
relations.
So then I was, I was writing mythesis about the Muslim
Brotherhood in Egypt and Iremember I would, I would be
skipping out on a lot of myArabic classes to go to these,
like to make contact with theMuslim Brotherhood.
At the time they were semitolerated but still illegal.
So getting a hold of them, youknow, you'd like send an email.
They'd say call this guy, texthim, you know, figure out like
who you are, and stuff, and yeah, yeah.
Once they were like, oh, you'rea student one.
Oh, yeah, of course.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
So but you're American.
You weren't even Egyptian orArabic.
Do they not have a problem?
Speaker 2 (19:56):
with that?
no no no, yeah, it no, yeah, itwas fine.
I think, you know, generallythere's, you know, probably a
little bit of a suspicion oflike, oh, is this guy
intelligence?
But yeah, I, I was 20 years old, yeah, so you know, they're
like, you know they can like,this is an inexperienced kid,
(20:24):
you know, yeah, um, and they'relike, all right, we'll humor you
, we'll give you you know, we'llinterview you and stuff.
So I, so the question was moreabout, I mean, the thesis was
just like, basically about uh,correlation between uh muslim
brotherhood and its founding andthen where it is today.
And after I finished that, Iwas just kind of like I've got
this guy here.
He was um k Hamza, who was onthe Shura council, you know like
some of the leadership of theMuslim Brotherhood there, and I
(20:45):
was just thinking, you know, inthe bit of time I was in Egypt I
could tell how unhappy peoplewere with Mubarak and just the
state of things.
They would always say, you know,they'd be careful of how they
said stuff.
They'd be like mubarak, I hopehe sleeps and you're like, oh,
okay, that's uh, yeah,interesting way of putting it.
So I told him I was, you know,I was like, well, let's, let's
(21:08):
talk about, you know, the futureof egypt.
Um, mubarak's getting old whenhe dies, if there are free and
fair elections.
You know where do you stand on.
You know, uh, how secular wouldyour government be women's
rights, these things?
And just sat on it.
You know, I didn't thinkanything of it wasn't going to
be part of my, my thesis.
And then, uh, you know, I wasback, went back to to do my last
(21:32):
semester, um, at WesternWashington University and the
protests start happening inEgypt.
And you know I'd check withfriends.
They're like nothing willhappen.
But from January 25th, like the, by the 28th, it was like okay,
something's happening.
You know, this is pretty clearand I had never written anything
(21:56):
at all, ever been publishedanything like that.
And I just start, I just sendout a bunch of emails to various
papers and things, andWashington, the editor of the
Washington Post, was like well,you haven't, like this sounds
interesting, but you haven'twritten anything.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So you're a pigeon, I could go do this as a story.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Well, I said I already had.
This was when, like, everyonewas like whoa, what's?
because the mother muslimbrotherhood after a few days
joined the protests and theywere like, oh so, and nobody was
had anything from them yet, youknow, especially the inside
track, I'm, I'm sitting on it,yeah, and then, and I did a
follow-up interview, then youknow, talking with them and um,
(22:37):
so, basically, foreign, foreignpolicy, um, ran, ran, an article
, uh, you know that that I wrote, it was, it was a like I wrote
a little bit and then it wasjust like a transcript of the
interview.
Um, and then after that, likethe atlantic bbc time, all these
(23:00):
outlets you know, also likepicked it up.
So, yeah, it kind of went wild,but that's, you know, that's
the thing with this industry isat some point you've gotta, you
gotta jump in a bit over yourhead.
That's how you're gonna learn,you know, yeah, and and getting
getting that chance, as isalways, um, you know the key
part.
(23:20):
But, uh, so, while I was there,you know, I, you know I was like
, oh, you know, maybe I'll thisjournalism thing, like do some
more writing or stuff.
So I, I uh, I sent a cold emailto the editor at rolling stone.
I remember a friend was likethey're, you're crazy, like
you're you're not, you'vewritten one thing like come on,
(23:41):
yeah.
And then he wrote back and hewas like, yeah, you should write
for us.
So I did a like first pieceabout this egyptian musician,
tamer hosni um, who basicallysided with mubarak but then
tried to, you know, say oh I, oh, I didn't, I wasn't aware of
what was happening in Egypt andstuff and uh yeah, so that was
(24:04):
the first piece I did for him.
And then I started doing, youknow, just like longer features.
You know, in Lebanon I did abig feature on the war in Syria
and and then to kind of justkept progressing into then you
know video, because I started torealize that as a writer,
unless you're a staff writer,it's really hard to survive off
(24:30):
that, you know.
Yeah, so video was and it wasclear the way the industry is
going like video was, you knowthe future, at least if you're
going to, you know, make aliving off of it yeah, you know,
so, and then you just taughtyourself how to shoot yeah,
cameras and then just went outand did it yeah, self
(24:51):
self-taught, um, you know, wouldlearn by seeing other people do
things.
And yeah, it's really just kindof like trial and error.
You know, and you know the.
I think the part that took thelongest was knowing what's a
story and how to tell a story.
I remember, like you know, whenI was first first doing it,
(25:13):
hearing people say that like,well, that's not a story,
michael, and I'd get angry, belike, yes, I know, and you're
like.
But then you realize you'relike, oh yeah, no, it's, it's
not.
Yeah, and an event happening isnot a, not really a story.
You know it's.
You gotta have an arc, yougotta have characters and really
you think about it.
So that took that took a whileto get good at seeing the story,
(25:35):
how to tell it, thinking activescenes and stuff, um and and
not getting so caught up with.
I remember, like, early on, youknow you're thinking, oh, I
need all this gear, I need thefanciest gear, I need the nicest
stuff and things you're like noyou don't like.
You just need the right for theright job, like the right thing,
but most importantly, just youbetter have that story and you
(25:57):
could do anything with you knowwhatever.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Really so, as you know, um, I always ask guests to
come on the podcast and tell mea one big beautiful story to
use, to use common parlance withthe uh, what's going on the
states right now?
But no, to come on the podcastand tell us one significant
career story.
(26:20):
You know that really sort ofstands out, um, in all their
experience.
So what would you say?
Um, that story would be in sortof start us from the beginning
and take us from there.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah.
So I guess a big I meanobviously a very big moment was
covering the Ukraine war fromthe New York Times it was, I
think I first had the call, itwas early January and it was
becoming clear that Russia waspreparing for an invasion.
(26:53):
That or it was a huge bluff,but the longer, the closer, more
time went on, it was like itwas pretty clear that this isn't
a bluff, this is most likelyhappening.
So, yeah, early January Ientered New York Times calls and
(27:13):
basically we're planning on,you know, if this invasion
happens, this full-scaleinvasion, you know, and how
would we cover it?
What's the plan?
So I did a little bit ofresearch and, you know, laid out
some stuff and then, well, Iguess it was three weeks before
the war started, you know, flewinto Kiev and then, you know,
(27:34):
went, went, flew into Kiev andand then, uh, you know, kind of
arrived, um, worked with, uh,had a local producer there, um,
thomas Rotushny, and he wasfantastic, and we basically, you
know, just started looking atways to tell, tell the story of
what's happening and, you know,is the invasion going to happen
(27:58):
and what is this all reallyabout?
So, and this was the first timeI'd been to ukraine.
So obviously I'm I'm I'mrelying heavily on on taras for
this, because before you're inthe middle east.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
At least you could speak like the local language,
you knew what was going on andyou can get the exactly subtle
inferences and the interviewsand the conversations and the
conversations and navigatingsituations.
But you were kind of like, uh,this is, this is out your
comfort zone totally, totallyalien.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, but it was.
It was also refreshing.
I mean it's first time you know, covering a war, where, if you
know there's snow and winter andjust everything, everything
looks, everything's completelydifferent than what you're used
to just before you go into that,like when you jump on the plane
and you know you're going intopotential conflict zone.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Like are you?
Are you afraid for your life atany point?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I think the worst part is just before you leave,
like there's the, it's likeyou'll be a bit nervous, like
leading up to it.
Once you're there, it's fine,it's all like.
You know the the too much timeto think and sitting there
waiting is always the worst.
But then, once you're there,you're yeah, you're good, busy,
um, yeah, I mean they'reobviously like when we got there
(29:13):
, it's like things aresemi-normal.
I mean there's signs ofpreparation of war and
everything you know at the.
You know, uh, we'd be filmingwith, uh, you know, the us
military, british militaryflying in c-17s, c-130s full of
weapons and offloading that, andyou, everyone knew like
(29:35):
something's, something's brewingand coming, but for the most
part it's, you know, stillstrangely normal until until it
isn't.
You know, uh, and so we werewe'd be doing various stories
about.
You know the, the, the kind oflike macro stuff that that you
know a lot of this is about.
(29:55):
You know it's about russian gasgoing to europe, um, ukraine
moving, obviously moving awayfrom russia wanting to join
europe, things like this.
And so you know you're doingyour normal job but like,
looking at, you know these werelonger features.
You know like four minutepieces and things, and then, all
the while, too, looking at,okay, if this starts, what's the
(30:19):
plan?
Um, some colleagues wanted tobe in the east.
Um, I, I decided, you know thatif, if this did happen, that it
was most likely going to be ablitz style, going for kiev,
probably going for zelinski,going for all the leadership,
and this was going to be a veryfast something could happen very
(30:41):
fast and the story wouldultimately be in Kiev, and that
you wouldn't, you'd want to bewary about being too far away,
where, if they blow throughthose lines now, you're in
Russian, you know behind Russianlines and they're probably,
you're probably going to bedetained.
As an American, you might be.
You'd probably be lucky enoughto be detained.
As an american, you might be.
You'd probably be lucky enoughto be detained and then deported
(31:01):
, to be released if you're, ifyou're ukrainian, you, you know
there's a lot of people thatkilled or disappeared.
You don't know what happened.
Um, so, yeah, as it got closer,I remember you know you start
doing the prep where you're like, okay, this is probably going
to happen.
So, um, you know, we're just.
You know you start doing theprep where you're like, okay,
(31:22):
this is probably going to happen.
So, um, you know we're justusing, you know, drivers around,
um, but we knew if the warstarted, a lot of these people
are going to get good, we'regoing to get called up to serve.
So I went and rented a carstocked up on fuel, food, water,
just everything, where you'relike, okay, if you know if we
get stuck for a while, you knowhave a few weeks of supplies, so
(31:43):
you're good.
And then, yeah, also have havethings, be mobile where, if you
have to walk out, you know youcan, you can do that too.
So, doing all that prep.
And then I remember it was whattwo nights before the invasion
started, putin had his long kindof just this long diatribe
(32:05):
where he's speaking about, youknow, the, the history of
ukraine and russia and therussian empire and everything.
And I remember hearing that andgoing, okay, this is happening,
this is absolutely happening.
And then, wow, um, someone at,uh, the us defense department
told us it was going to startaround like3 am I think it was 3
(32:29):
am on a wednesday.
And I remember waking up and,like you could hear, they bombed
the airport first, um, just afew airstrikes on the airport,
just, you know, disabling that.
And then that was the first day, that was at least around Kiev.
That was it.
Um, you know, they basicallythey started, started moving in
(32:51):
from Kharkiv, um, and up abovefrom Belarus and and uh, then
everyone was leaving Kiev.
Basically, they gave enoughtime for basically everyone,
loaded up in their cars andstarted driving to poland or or
moldova and, um, yeah, and thenyou've got fighter jets, you
(33:11):
know, kind of like screamingahead, just like going around
and you're kind of looking upgoing is you know, is that
ukrainian or is it russian?
Like where are we?
Well, what's what's happening?
Um, and the russians, theymoved incredibly fast.
Um, you know, at first theykind of did they.
They blew through a lot ofplaces, they I I think it was
(33:33):
the second night that theyarrived on the outskirts of kiev
.
Um, you know, you'd see thetracers going, explosions.
And I woke up one morning andthere was like a bit of a I'm
not sure what kind of munitionit was, I want to say a bit of a
(33:53):
cluster bomb, but it was right,like missed the car by like six
inches, right outside the hotel.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I came out and one of the guyswas like is this your car?
I was like yeah, he's like verylucky.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
I was like, oh, okay, yeah, as he proceeded to sort
of gently kick the cluster bombdown the road, a little bit like
a like a football, yeah yeah,and I was just like man.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I'm glad I got the full insurance on the car too.
Funny thing about that car isit stayed on.
I just kept renewing it for theNew York Times even after I
left and everyone used it.
That car I mean just got, it'sbeen through a lot.
At some point.
One of the guys messaged he sawthe car and it was like one of
(34:43):
the doors was just kind ofsmashed or something.
And he's guys like message hesaw the car and it was like one
of the doors was just like kindof like smashed or something.
And he's like hey, I saw thecar.
Are you guys okay?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Or like I'm like oh yeah it's all right, oh my God,
so wait.
So that was like an Avis orlike just a rental?
Speaker 2 (34:55):
car from a?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yeah, so I'd love would love to be the person that
takes that back to them and belike it's missing three doors,
it's riddled with bullets, it'slike can we just get the
insurance on this?
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I mean, all all they had said was just make sure you
don't take it into.
You know any of the, theRussian controlled areas of
Ukraine, you know, like Luhanskor Donetsk?
Yeah, cause they were like, oh,don't bring it to any conflict
zone.
But then after that it was like, well, everything's a conflict
zone, it's like there's nothingwe can do really.
Um, so, yeah, that, yeah, waking.
(35:28):
Those first first few days were, yeah, it was.
It was, yeah, like you're.
You're, you're in disbelief andyou're wondering, like who, how
you know which way is thisgoing to swing?
Also, at that time too is, likeyou know, it was very eerie.
Like most people were out ofKiev, most people have left,
(35:51):
yeah, so you're in the city justlike empty on its own, and
occasionally there would be, um,sometimes there would be, I'm
not sure if it was likeRussianussian, like sleeper cell
, or the other times, uh, wefound out that they would tell
russian soldiers like, oh,keeves, liberated, go ahead.
(36:12):
Like and and so you'd have, allof a sudden, just like a
five-car convoy just driving in,thinking everything's fine, and
then they just get completelylit up.
What so?
I remember that, oh, my, thathappened a few days into it.
Yeah, they, they were told likeoh, yeah, they've.
I think someone told them theysurrendered or it was fine.
They're like go, go ahead.
(36:32):
So they're just nonchalantlycruising in and just got
absolutely obliterated.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Um, are you filming any of this or is this like
through stories, through context?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
no, no, that that that was um, we found out.
You could hear the fightinggoing on, but and then it was
the next day, you could see allthe cars and everything, um, and
then, yeah, so we, you know, we, we got out of, we got out of
kiev, um, there was, it wasbasically the timing was, you
know, things were closing up,but but there was one way out.
(37:01):
You get kind of like throughthe south and um, so we went
like about 70 kilometers out ofthe city and um, then you know,
we arrive in this small littletown.
There's a little hotel we canstay at, kind of mom and pop bed
and breakfast place, and youknow they tell us like okay, at
(37:23):
8 pm we turn off the whole, thewhole town turns off their
lights.
So you know the russians can'tsee us, which I was like.
You know they've got radar andmaps and stuff.
You know this isn't world warii, the blitz in london, but
okay, fine, fine, you knowwhatever.
So you know it's like, okay,out of here.
You know, like rural areashould be fine.
I'm like go to take a shower.
(37:44):
I get out of the shower andthen all of a sudden, not far
away, a rocket, just boom, comesin the window, almost just like
pops open, and I, yeah, it wasreally, really shocking.
You're like whoa shit, you know, you get the sense of feeling
like, okay, we're out, we'resafe, it's good.
And then that happens.
And then, um, this uh, the uhold woman who was running the
(38:08):
place is banging on doorstelling people to come down, and
I don't have any clothes onalso.
She's opened the doors likecome, come, and I'm like, oh,
okay, all right, I'm like youknow what I'm, I'm gonna get
dressed.
I'd rather I'm, I'm you know ifI'm getting bald practical, but
I'm yeah, it's like I'm notgonna die naked and yeah, have,
yeah, and that image, uh there.
So yeah, but um, yeah, and thenyou know, getting making our
(38:36):
way to.
After that we decided to makeour way to levive, which is in
the west, and you know therussians weren't there.
So we went, you know, went,kept down south and then came up
, uh there.
So you go around where therussians were and um, and you're
just picking up stories as yougo picking up stories.
(38:56):
We go, like, we went to, likethere's the.
The last, the next place westayed was, uh, a children's
school.
Yeah, um, and you know, somepeople were sheltered there at
first.
When we pulled up, they'd likeeveryone was very wary of, like
you know, didn't trust anyonewho wasn't from you know they're
thinking are you know thesespies or whatever?
so you know, at first it was.
(39:18):
It was actually quite tensewhen we pulled up and then then,
once they figured out you knowwho we are and stuff, they were,
you know, very welcoming andkind of sheltered down there and
slept for the night, filmedsome stuff, then headed to
levive, uh, and you know fromthere film filming, uh, where
all the refugees, uh, you knowpeople, people are heading to
(39:39):
poland, hopping on trains,trying to get out, um, yeah,
it's, you know, is every nightyou're getting maybe four hours
of sleep, jeez, and but butyou're running on.
So, you know, so muchadrenaline and stuff and it's,
you know, quite spectacular.
So you're you, you don't feelthat, I guess, exhaustion until,
(40:03):
yeah, it takes a few weeks forfor then also to be like once.
It's always the, I think, thefirst two weeks of any conflict
or war always, you know, usuallythe most intense.
It's where the biggest pushhappens and then lines will, or
first month maybe, and thenthings will kind of more
solidify.
You know, like it's the, thepace slows a bit, it's chaotic,
(40:24):
um, and that's usually usuallythen when you start feeling like
exhausted.
So which I, you know, after thefirst month.
Then I switched over to theseries you and I worked together
on, but that was when then Iwent right from that to to the
arctic.
Uh, so you know, minus 40Celsius uh 45 Celsius and polar
(40:48):
bears, you know from from thewar in Ukraine to that.
So it was, uh, it was a reallyreally stark contrast between
the two.
Jeez, um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
So.
So with the Ukraine thing, likeyou were there for a month,
like I'm just curious, causethat's an evolving.
When you're doing news, it'slike an evolving situation and
like the I guess the editor kindof goes you've got enough
stories, come back.
Or is there like a set thingwe're going to send you out for
a month and then they don'treally want to keep you out any
longer than that because peoplestart getting, as you say, worn
(41:19):
out and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
No, I for for something like that.
It's just, I mean, we're doingsometimes a story a day for
every two days, like we're.
They're just like, just keepgoing as long as stuff's
happening, geez, um.
So there's lots, lots to do,you know, at first, at first
it's like dailies, like the.
You know, the first first daywas people fleeing Kiev and the
war starting.
(41:50):
The second day was, uh, civildefense forces, you know,
average citizens lining up toget weapons and you know, and
distributing that and peoplepreparing, you know, to defend
Kiev, uh.
And then third day was you knowa big uh, there was a big
rocket attack on a building, um,so you know that hit, and then
we run there.
So then it's you know a big uh,there was a big rocket attack
on a building, um, so you knowthat hit, and then we run there.
So then it's like the firstfirst bit of that stuff is
usually, you know, reactive Um.
(42:11):
And then, once things slow downa bit, then it's like, okay, we
can take more time, uh, um, soyeah, it's.
It's really, with that stuff,it's as long as stuff's
happening, you, you find way,you just keep, keep moving
around, keep finding stories.
There's always, alwayssomething to tell there, you
know.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
And so did you when you got recalled were you.
Did you get out through Poland?
Or how did you get out ofUkraine?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, we, um, we drove from Lviv to the border,
which was like an hour yeah andthen the line of cars was so
long, like we just got out andthen had to carry our stuff,
which, luckily, one of thesecurity guys was with me, john,
who, um, helped me carry mystuff, and he was, I mean, film
(43:01):
wise, you'd you'd know it waslike it was actually quite light
compared to what you knownormally you would have for film
shoots.
It was like I had one pelicancase, my big camera bag, tripod
and my backpack and a duffellike that.
You know, it was like sleepingbag and other stuff and things
for just general kind of if youhad to camp or survive.
(43:21):
Um, and he was, he was justlike what is all this stuff?
And I told him I was like john,this is, this is not a lot of
film, stuff like this isactually light.
But we had to carry it like Idon't know, it was like four
miles and it was like a kind oflike dirt, dirt road, just sort
of it was.
(43:43):
That was tough, and then soyou're slogging all this stuff
and then we get to the borderand obviously you know it's
thousands of people, yeah, andthey're, you know, trying to
process people and stuff.
I think we spent eight.
It took eight hours to getacross to the, to cross into
Poland, just you know,processing everyone, and we got
(44:07):
it like we ended up getting overthere at like 1am, something
like that, and then a guy droveus from the border to Warsaw
where stayed at the airporthotel.
So then I remember I went tosleep and I was so used to
hearing you know jets and things, you know fighter jets or the
(44:28):
airstrikes that at.
For when I first heard you knowone of the airplanes coming in
or like taking off, like that, Iimmediately jumped out of my
bed and then, like you know,because usually what you do it's
like you roll onto the floor,get, get in the bathroom, get
the you know the best cover youcan have, yeah, and I remember
just being like oh, and notknowing where I was.
And then all of a sudden I waslike oh wait, you're in warsaw,
(44:51):
you're out there, it's, it'sfine, it's fine but your your
body naturally, you know,doesn't.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Uh, yeah, it's just so conditioned to that after a
while that must be nuts, Like Iknow the feeling of like ending
a shoot and getting on a plane,but like for you, jumping on
that flight home, like it musthave been an immense feeling,
like reflecting on what you'dexperienced, Like what were you,
what were those emotions whenflying home.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, it's kind of like that's that's when you
start, like you process things abit.
You know it's.
It's kind of like that's that'swhen you start, like you
process things a bit.
You know it's it's kind ofoverwhelming.
Uh, there's definitely somerelief.
There's also, like you know you, you feel a bit of guilt that
you're, you're a lot, you're oneof your, your privilege that
you get to pick up and leave,you get to go home.
(45:39):
Your home isn't affected.
To go home, your home isn'taffected, you know, you get to
go back to a normal life,whereas, uh, you know the people
you've been working with andknow there and been speaking
with there, that that's theydon't get a leave, that's that
is their life now and you don'tknow what's going to happen or
change for them.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
So, yeah, it's, um, it's bittersweet, you know
there's it's definitely, uh, amix of emotions, that's for sure
what would you say like kind ofthe back of that or even any of
the projects you've done wouldbe like an ultimate career goal?
Would it be like winning anemmy or like, would it be more
important that, like a storythat you did sort of change the
(46:18):
course of government's decision,or something like that?
What would be sort of somethingthat would be the ultimate goal
for you in your career?
Speaker 2 (46:26):
yeah, I think you know awards are I forgot who
said this, but someone saidawards are like hemorrhoids
after a while every asshole getsone.
You know, and I've, I've gottena few and it's like it's, it's
nice to be recognized and you'relike, okay, great, like um, I
mean, obviously, you know,getting an oscar for a
documentary film would be prettygreat, yeah, but again, I think
(46:49):
I think like that's, it's still, you know, it doesn't really
change much, like your, yourgoal should be.
I mean, my goal is to tellgreat stories.
Uh, you know, I want to makefilms, I want to keep making art
and and, uh, telling, findingnew stories, finding, you know,
ways to lift up voices, that'syeah, that's, that's for me what
(47:15):
it's about nice and so it'sworth the risk.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Obviously, clearly I mean obviously there's the
freelancer as well, and it's notas with any cinematographer.
I know there's a hugeinvestment in equipment that's
required um, which you know isnot it's not um cheap.
It's cheaper than it used to be, but it's still.
You've got to have a hugeinvestment there.
But I guess you get, you know,renumerated numerators are paid
(47:38):
well accordingly.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, I mean it's yeah when, when you're working,
you get paid.
Well, there's long periods.
You know it'll be intenseperiods of working and then lots
of downtime yeah you'redefinitely not.
You're not getting rich on this, that's for sure, like you know
.
I don't know anybody who doesit for, for, for money for the
money um.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
That's what I was, but um yeah, I just finally like
any advice for anyone thatwanted to is listen, to listen
to this uh episode and go on.
Given everything you said, likeyeah, I want to do that.
Like what, what advice wouldyou give anyone trying to jump
into it?
You?
Speaker 2 (48:12):
know, I think that I get a lot of people asking about
like, oh, you know, I want tobe a foreign journalist, or
conflict and stuff, and theythink that they've need a.
They need to like hop on aflight and flight and go across
the world to the hottest placeor wherever things are the most
intense.
But I'd say the first thingsfirst is focus on knowing how to
(48:37):
tell a story, and that there'sa lot of stuff around here
Especially I look at America nowthat there's a lot of stuff
around here, like, especially Ilook at america now, I'm like
I'm spending more time shootinghere.
Uh, because there's there's alot going on and it's it's
really, really important andit's a pretty key moment.
And you know, I think thatespecially, it's especially
(48:58):
helped having this otherperspective of being living
outside of the us, for, you know, over 15 years now, and you
know, being able to see thiswith fresh eyes, as when I come
here, like it's, this feels morelike covering a foreign country
.
That's weird, and so I so Ithink I think trying to tell
(49:18):
people say, if you know fromyour own country, like, try and
look, look at it that way,because there are stories all
around you there and start therefirst, and then, you know, make
the jump when the timing'sright.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Brilliant, brilliant.
All right, Michael MichaelDiney, thank you so much.
I mean, just before you jumpoff, I always like to say is
there anything you want to plug?
Any docs that have come outrecently that people can watch
any shows or even social media,they can follow you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Um, I asked.
One thing I'm terrible atactually is self-promotion.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Hey.
Well, I'm trying to give you aplatform.
Hey promote yourself.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
I know, I know I need to get.
I need to get way better atthat.
I mean, I post like maybe fourtimes a year on Instagram.
I'm just like, ugh, I'm one ofthose where I'm like just give
me the camera and just let memake something and then someone
else take care of that.
But you can check out mywebsite, michael-downeycom, or
on Instagram, michaeldowneyphoto, and, you know, occasionally
(50:21):
I'm putting updates on my workand stuff there.
You know, maybe I'll puttingupdates on my work and stuff
there.
You know, maybe I'll get.
I need to get a little bitbetter about that, Uh, but yeah,
yeah, I'd say that's, that'sreally it.
Um, you know there'll be somestuff coming out.
Um got the short film forchannel four.
Uh, that should be out in a fewweeks.
And then my short doc that I'vebeen doing in depth on
(50:45):
immigration situation with iceand activists and migrants that
um editing part of.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Hopefully we'll have a second shoot block and that I
assume will be out sometimeseptember, october yeah, maybe a
little bit later so and I wasgonna say that, uh, fanny
winstead, that Zingarella story,I think your showreel, the
first frame of your showreel, isin that cave.
I remember the drone Exactly.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Is the cave that went ?
Oh, that was such a blast tolight.
Uh, it looked.
Yeah, I loved that.
Unfortunately, that was thethat was the last shot that that
drone ever did before itcommitted suicide.
Yeah, yeah, that was wild.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Yeah, the drone just went berserk at something 200
meters down some kind ofmagnetic rock.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yeah, yeah, poor thing wasn't, I remember I
remember mateo being like stop,stop, you're hitting the wall.
I'm like I'm not doing it.
I'm, of course I would.
I know wouldn't repeatedlysmash the drone into the wall.
It's like it's doing it on itsown, poor drone man.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
It just couldn't handle being.
It's like I need a satellite totalk to you like that yeah,
brilliant, yeah, exactly cool.
All right, man, listen alwaysgreat chatting to you and
absolutely easy and stay safe.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
All right, thanks, take care stay safe.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
All right, thanks, take care.
And that is it for this week'sepisode.
I just want to say a massivethank you again to Michael for
taking the time to share hisexperiences and a massive thank
you to you all as well forlistening.
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(52:32):
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Next week's episode is not onefor the faint hearted,
especially for anyone withclaustrophobia or fear of the
dark.
My guest is Dr Hazel Barton, aleading cave scientist and
expert caver.
She relives a near-deathexperience when she was deep
inside a cave which startedflooding due to a freak weather
(52:55):
event.
It's a really crazy story, sohit subscribe now so you don't
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And if you enjoyed this episode, please do two really quick
things for us, click five starsand, if you have time, give us a
review, and the other thing istell a friend, that's it.
It really helps us grow.
The show attract more amazingguests and inspires new
listeners.
This show is produced, hostedand edited by me, chris barron.
(53:40):
Thank you so much for listeningand have a great Monday
everyone.
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