June 24, 2024 • 24 mins
Welcome back to the No Problem Parenting Podcast!
In this episode, host Jaci Finneman is joined by Andy Heller, author of Take the High Road: Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family. Andy's journey from a successful businessman to a passionate advocate for compassionate divorce offers invaluable insights for parents navigating separation challenges.
Andy shares his personal story and the inspiration behind his book, emphasizing the importance of maintaining compassion during a divorce. He discusses therapy's role for both parents and children, highlighting the benefits of having a neutral advocate for kids. Andy also provides practical, actionable advice on co-parenting, including the use of co-parenting counselors and effective communication strategies.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hey there, parents. Thanks for listening to the No Problem Parenting Podcast.
Are you ready to become the confident leader your kids crave you to be?
Are you losing your crap on your kids, yelling, giving in, and exhausted at the end of every day?
You can start building confidence in your parenting immediately,
whether your child is a toddler or all grown up and still living in your house.
(00:22):
Don't make this parenting gig harder than it needs to be.
Register to become a No Problem Parent. It comes with an app so you can listen
to the tips and tools just like you're listening to this podcast.
Click the link in the show notes or go to NoProblemParents.com.
Become a No Problem Parent today.
All right, welcome back, No Problem Parents. I'm your host, Jackie Finneman,
(00:43):
and today I have a special guest joining us, Mr. Andy Heller.
He's the author of Take the High Road, Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family.
Andy's journey from successful businessman man to advocate for compassionate
divorce offers invaluable insights for parents navigating the challenges of separation.
Welcome to the show, Andy.
(01:04):
Jackie, thanks for having me. Can't wait. I am just intrigued by the fact that
you wrote this book on divorce when it's really not even, you know,
wasn't on your radar to do so.
Your background is in business, but you've really become a passionate advocate
for compassionate divorce.
So share with us what inspired this transition in your life.
(01:24):
So basically, Jackie, I had a therapist I was seeing for my own divorce,
and I'm kind of a very level-headed guy.
I'm the guy in every group that people can go to for advice,
and I try to look at both sides.
And something happened with my ex, and I said, rather than act on it,
I said, I got this session. I'm going to go ahead and just bounce it off my therapist.
(01:45):
But I knew what I wanted. I knew how I want to handle it. So I walk into his
office, and I said, hey, this is what happened, but don't worry.
I've thought it through, and this is what I'm going to do.
And she went the whole therapy speak well you know andy it's good
that you feel that way blah blah blah blah blah but you're not going to do what
you're going to do you're going to do the opposite i'm like what what and after
i stopped badgering back i finally listened to her jackie i'm like oh my god
(02:07):
she's a hundred percent right i was a hundred percent wrong with what i had.
What's going to do. I realized at that moment how emotionally compromised I
was and not making good decisions.
Now, by this time, I'd read about a dozen other divorce books.
When I stress, I don't sleep a lot.
(02:29):
So I'd read a lot of other books and I noticed a gap in divorce book space.
So what I set out to do was to fill that gap.
So that began a seven-year project of interviews with field experts,
co-parenting counselors, therapists,
divorced attorneys, divorced couples who went through traumatic divorces and
(02:49):
landed in good spaces where they're co-parenting effectively.
I took all of these counsel from these experts and I put it into a kind of a
business best practices book for divorce.
And, you know, I'm humbled by a lot of things.
And one is all the reviews from particularly the therapy community,
some divorcees. I may have nailed something. So that's my story.
(03:12):
The fact that you said, hey, not only did that help you, but you're like,
all right, now I want to help other people. There's something to this and we
can make things just a little bit easier.
In the book, Take the High Road, you emphasize the importance of compassion
during divorce, which I think oftentimes parents might say those two words don't
go hand in hand, compassion and divorce.
(03:33):
You don't often hear them put together. But how How can parents model this behavior
for their children during such a challenging time?
How can you bring compassion into the equation?
Now, first I'll say, Jackie, it's not an easy thing to do in most cases. You're upset.
You're agitated. You could be hurt. You've got a whole cocktail of emotions,
(03:56):
and most of them are not good.
The best thing for dealing with your ex is you just got to ask yourself,
how would I want to be treated myself? myself.
And that's how you need to deal with most of the situations. And it's not easy.
And if you're not able to, no pun intended with the words, divorce yourself
from the predicament at that time, take a step back and just say to your ex,
(04:18):
I'll get back to you later or whatever. You need to calm down.
All right. With your kids, the most compassionate thing you can do for your
children, hands down, is get them in therapy. Why?
Well, you're dealing with a lot of drama yourself self. And even if it's not
a high conflict divorce, you're going from a one household environment to a
(04:39):
two household environment. Your life is being disrupted.
Okay. You can't be both the consoler and the disruptor in your children's lives.
So if they are seeing a therapist and they're having coping challenges that
you may not be aware of, the therapist will be an advocate for your kids.
(05:00):
Not for you. So that's the best thing you can do.
You know, with my ex, we had a high conflict divorce. We now are co-parenting effectively.
I've remarried Jackie. Things are great. But I got to say, in her world,
she had one of those blow up divorces where, you know, guy comes home,
somebody she knows, guy comes home and he was having an affair and kicks his wife out.
(05:29):
And Their lives were just completely disrupted. So she said,
we're not going to do it that way.
All right. And to her credit, she got our kids in therapy before we even let
them know about the divorce so that the therapist could help guide them.
That's another great tip, guys.
If you haven't yet separated, but you know it's inevitable, get your kids in
(05:52):
therapy before they learn about this. Why?
The way the therapist can establish a foundation so he or she can be a rudder
for your kids when they get the news, as opposed to being in damage control.
Okay. Point. Yeah. And that actually came from a California therapist I interviewed,
(06:12):
and she said she has since
made it a requirement for her clients to get the kids in therapy for at least
three months before they get the news because her ability to be impactful and
helpful for the kids is exponentially higher because of timing.
(06:32):
Alignment these are details that we parents again
this is why it's helpful to give your kids an
advocate the devil's in the details and
how you separate and you may not be realizing that
something about your process is going to actually make it more difficult on
your children where minor modifications and adjustments can make it so much
(06:55):
easier on them getting your kids in therapy ahead of time how did you do that
yourself as far as getting your kids into therapy if they don't I want to go.
I'm just going to be really what they say on ESPN, cold, hard facts.
You guys are the parents, not them. You need to insist on it.
And if you have to dangle something that means a lot to them,
like cell phone or TV time or video games, you do it.
(07:19):
They don't have a choice. Okay. And you want to look at it, everybody, as a gift.
Gift you're giving your kids the gift
of therapy because you need
they need help somebody one of the quotes in my book that's one of the most
powerful but scary quotes came from a divorcee i interviewed and he had a high
(07:46):
conflict divorce landed in a great place and he said andy we adults we will recover,
Most of us will find new partners or land in a good place where we have a good
life. The children never recover.
Now, I'm not sure. I think if you ask 100 therapists their take on that,
you'll get 100 different answers.
(08:06):
I think my takeaway from that statement is that the child's life will be forever
changed because they go from a single household to two households.
They go from being parented by two parents at the same time to one parent at one time.
And it is disruptive.
(08:28):
And we have an obligation as parents to minimize that disruption to the best of our abilities.
And there's no better gift that can do that than giving your kids an advocate that they can speak to.
And that's a trained children's therapist. Now, in my research,
I learned there's many different types of therapy.
(08:49):
Now, you can't, you know, a six and seven year old kids are not going to sit
on a couch and say, well, this is what my thoughts are.
There's a subset of therapy for kids called play therapy, where basically a
therapist plays with the kids.
And in doing that, she or he learns how well the kids are managing the disruption
(09:10):
in their lives. Now, you may think, I don't want to pay $200 an hour for somebody
to play games. I'll play games.
But it's worth it. And get yourself a good one. Probably the best money that you'll spend.
And that's the one place where you don't want a short change.
So as far as having that conversation with your kids, because I'm a no-problem
parenting, we're teaching about seeking first to understand,
(09:32):
preparing for the worst, and changing the conversation.
And I am a big proponent of not just putting your kids in therapy,
unless the child, unless unless
you have the conversation with them that says, explains or describes.
What the end goal is of therapy or what the reason for the therapy is.
I shared this before on the podcast that oftentimes when I'm working with families
(09:53):
who are divorced, sometimes the teens will say, yeah, my parents say the divorce
isn't my fault, but then why am I the one in therapy?
You know, if the parents aren't going or the kid is going. And so while I agree
wholeheartedly with you that having that, not mediator really,
but having that unbiased person, neutral, thank you.
That neutral person for the child or
(10:15):
teen to talk with is really vital
and key and can help uncover or bring to light some of the issues or challenges
or struggles that the kid are having that maybe you or the ex wouldn't even
know were going on because you're so into your own stuff or the child's just
really good at hiding it. I think therapy is great.
(10:35):
It's that how do you get them there and how do you share with them why you think
that's important without them thinking, oh, there's something wrong with me,
and I'm the reason mom and dad got divorced?
Well, I'm going to give two comments.
First of all, I don't think this is difficult for younger children.
It does get challenging when your kids get older.
(10:55):
So the first part of the answer is, I'm going to talk about myself for a second,
even though this book is not about me.
I'm a successful businessman, and during a co-parenting session with my ex,
the co-parenting counselor said, you know, you guys are dealing with a lot of
drama here. This is a high conflict divorce.
I recommend you each get therapists.
(11:16):
And I'm like, you know, can't hurt. So I asked for three recommendations of
therapists who dealt with divorced men, and I found a great one.
So the first part of the answer is, if you're seeing somebody yourself,
you can much easier say to that teenager, look, dad's doing it,
mom's doing it, and you're going to do it. Now, if you are not doing it yourself.
(11:40):
Then my recommendation is to say something that is very sensitive and kid-centric.
The honest answer is your mom and I, your dad and I, our lives are being disrupted,
and we need to make sure that there's an advocate for you and dedicated only
to you without all the noise going around, at least for a little while.
(12:02):
I would put it in terms of that. I need to make sure that there's an advocate
for you to hear you and help you navigate.
Andy, I love that you say that, that this is an advocate for you.
And the fact that sometimes our kids will actually try to take care of us through
the divorce, and that is not their job nor their role.
(12:23):
And so being sure that you're saying to the kids, because I don't want you to
just take my side or feel like you have to take care of me or just take mom's
side and feel like you have to take care of her.
This is a great way for you to have an advocate to make sure that your needs
are being met and you're being taken care of. I love that.
Co-parenting can be, oh man, just a significant challenge for divorced parents.
(12:46):
And then if you're in a more sticky situation or more traumatic kind of divorce,
it can be 10 times harder.
What advice do you have for parents who are struggling to kind of navigate the
co-parenting aspect of the relationship?
One third of my book is that advice.
I'll give you one of my favorite ones. To involve a referee.
(13:08):
And the trained referee is what we call a co-parenting counselor.
Now, the beauty about this, everybody, is you pay per usage.
Actually, it's like it's a job that is designed for the employer to become unemployed. Thank you.
Because there's going to be a motivation for you because you don't want to pay
(13:30):
this money to get to a point where you don't need that person.
So the way it would work, everybody, it's typically a somebody from your field, a trained therapist.
Sometimes it's actually a former judge, a former attorney.
They go into co-parenting. So the couple comes in and says, OK,
these are the things that we're dealing with right now.
(13:51):
And the co-parenting counselor, the good ones in a one or two hour session are
trained to help you arrive at compromises and decisions that need to be made
even though you're not able to get along because your kids'
lives will not pause while you and your ex reach a point where you guys can
(14:11):
co-parent effectively.
That's why you need this co-parenting counselor.
So it might look like this in a perfect world.
You go once a month for the first six to 12 months.
You're actually able to get some things accomplished on your own.
And then you start going every six weeks. Then you start going every two months.
(14:32):
Then you start going once a quarter. Then you go twice a year.
Then you go as needed. Then you stop going.
That's how the process will look. There's other Other tools like Family Wizard,
online tools, and for basically communication and managing communications,
expenses and stuff like that.
Those are all really helpful, but they're not going to help you reach decisions
(14:55):
on, do we really put little Johnny in ballet?
He doesn't want to do it. Or does he go to basketball?
All right. What about the tutoring that our daughter needs and she doesn't want
to do that? So this is where you need some help.
And I will say I actually do believe I'm not being corny here, everybody.
(15:16):
I do believe that there's a financial savings here, because typically the longer
people are fighting, the more it costs, both emotional and financial.
And if a co-parenting counselor who is a trained professional in a once-a-month
session can help you reach seven or eight decisions that you are going to otherwise fight about.
(15:41):
Guys, that's money in the bank. Take it and run with it. So that's my favorite suggestion.
But again, probably about a third of my book deals with how to co-parent with
somebody you couldn't live with.
Don't lose sight of the fact that your children need something fun to look forward to.
Your life is blowing up, all right?
(16:03):
And I'm a big believer in talking about in one of my chapters,
actually making sure there's something fun for you, yourself,
also for your children. Why is the former important?
Well, the former is important because you got to keep your sanity.
And for many people, like, well, it's all about the kids. It's all about the
(16:23):
kids. It's all about the kids. It is.
But if you lose your marbles because you're so stressed out,
you're worried about going back into the workforce,
or you're worried about cooking a healthy dinner and you've never cooked before,
whatever your stressors can be, put something on the calendar that's for you to look forward to.
Like you always want to join a bowling league, do it. You always want to join a book club, do it.
(16:47):
And that is going to help you get through those challenging months and actually
make you a better parent.
I'll tell you about one of my chapters. That's a really funny one.
It's, it's, um, so the way the book is designed, everybody, there's 46 different
chapters, which are each chapter is essentially a tip.
And there's four sections. One section about pre-divorce, about choosing the
(17:09):
right divorce strategy, be it a kitchen table divorce, picking the right attorney,
managing your attorney, et cetera.
Then there's the chapter about dealing with your ex, yourself.
And co-parenting with your kids. Okay. So...
There's one of the chapters I'm like, oh, you know what? This is a great tip, but it kind of hokey.
(17:31):
But I put it in and it is like the most asked about chapter in all of my podcasts.
And I think that the title of chapter is the rubber suit.
And it came as a tip from a divorcee.
And he was co-parenting for three months in the home that they used to share.
(17:54):
He moved in with a buddy while he
waited to get his own place and like he said you know
i i don't fault my ex but she doesn't realize how rude she's being to me and
how uncomfortable i am co-parenting in her home i don't even have a home right
now and i'm trying to be a good dad and and insults with flying this and that
(18:15):
so what he did before he walked in the door he envisioned he put
on imaginary rubber suit and every insult would bounce off him.
And he played a game like, okay, let's see if I can get a better insult this time than last time.
And it is, it sounded really hokey,
but, but what it is is that most divorcees, the big takeaway point from that
(18:39):
chapter is most divorcees need a coping mechanism for those first months,
months, even maybe years,
because your ex is not realizing he or she is being rude very often and disrespectful.
You're realizing it, but they're not.
Now, the good news is, everybody, it almost always improves,
(19:03):
but we do need coping mechanisms in place while it's happening so that you can
still be an effective parent if you're being insulted,
even unintentionally, in the presence of your kids.
So the rubber suit was that chapter that dealt with one dad's wacky coping mechanism.
(19:25):
And the takeaway point is that everybody is pretty healthy to take a step back
and say, how am I going to deal with this when I'm in the company of my ex,
when I'm sitting at that ballet a recital and we're sitting together like the
co-parenting counselors tell us to do. I don't, I don't want to be there.
What's my strategy going to be?
(19:46):
To cope with that so I can be there with a smile and joy in my children.
Love that. Are you speaking primarily to men? Is it men and women, moms and dads?
My book was written in a unisex manner. The counsel effect, I've probably got
more compliments from women than men because my gender, we don't read enough
(20:06):
self-help books. We should.
I do it in one point of the book, Jackie, I do note that the writer is a man.
But the advice is completely intended to be equally valuable for both gender,
genders, and it doesn't skew one way or the other.
We have a lot of stories that I changed the names, I changed some details.
(20:28):
But these are stories that have come from high conflict divorces,
stories that we can learn from. And they're very equally balanced.
As corny as this sounds, if you can get a copy in the hand of both you and your divorce and spouse,
then you can have a framework by which you guys can hopefully divorce in a manner
(20:52):
that is not as disruptive to your children and healthier for you.
I'm really humbled because I'm a businessman. I'm a successful businessman.
I wrote this book as corny as it sounds, Jackie, to help people.
This is not a moneymaker, everybody. I've got a successful business.
But if it doesn't get in the hands of people, it's not going to help people.
(21:13):
And all of you know somebody who's getting divorced or a therapist who deals
with divorcees, my book would be a fantastic rudder for them.
If you are going through divorce or you're likely to go through divorce or you
have been through divorce and you're struggling still, divorce is a marathon. It's not a sprint.
(21:34):
And almost always your life gets better over time.
And while I might be a glass half full guy, that is tends to be the fact.
And when I put my book together, I interviewed countless couples who they themselves
went through high conflict divorces, and they all said the same thing.
(21:55):
I didn't think it would get better. Life couldn't get much worse.
And I eventually landed in a place
where I'm enjoying my life and I can co-parent effectively with my ex.
Maybe not optimally, but effectively.
Now, my hope is you get to a point where you can do it optimally in a two-household environment.
(22:17):
You have resources like Jackie's podcast, like my book.
But if you do find yourself getting down, it typically does get better.
And it's okay to get down a bit because it's disruptive.
You don't have to be that all like macho or super strong lady that,
hey, this doesn't affect.
No, it's going to affect you because it's disruptive.
(22:39):
Even if you want a divorce, it's disruptive because now you've got a lot more
pressure on you in a two household environment.
But it does typically get better. And remind yourself of that.
And I do mention that throughout my book. book, sometimes that will help you
during the periods when it is difficult.
Yeah, good advice. Good advice. We don't know what we don't know.
(23:01):
And often we fear the unknown.
And then the stinking thinking comes into play.
And we fill our minds with all these negative thoughts and all these shoulds
and shouldn'ts and just all the things.
And it's like, yeah, take a deep breath. It's hard sometimes to foresee the
future being bright again.
But we just one foot in front of the other day in, day out, you can get there.
(23:21):
And I think Your book is definitely supporting parents and helping them get
to that point where they see that light at the end of the tunnel and the bright
light in their lives again.
So thank you so much, Andy, for being with me today.
Listeners, remember that navigating divorce is never easy, but Take the High
Road is here to support you.
We're going to have links in the show notes for you to grab that book.
(23:44):
Andy, I just thank you so much for being with me on the show.
Jackie, it's been my pleasure. And anytime you want me back, I'd love to.
All right, that's it for today's episode of the No Problem Parenting Podcast.
Hey, thanks guys for tuning in. If you found value in today's episode,
click the subscribe button and share it with other parents who might need a little boost.
Stay connected on our socials by following at No Problem Parents for more parenting
(24:08):
tips and get your free download of the 60 ways to respond to your kids without losing your cool.
Go to noproblemparents.com. Until next time, Remember, your confidence comes
from embracing both successes and setbacks.
So take a deep breath, embrace the chaos, and remember, you got this.
Music.
Hey there, parents. Thanks for listening to the No Problem Parenting Podcast.
Are you ready to become the confident leader your kids crave you to be?
Are you losing your crap on your kids, yelling, giving in, and exhausted at the end of every day?
You can start building confidence in your parenting immediately,
whether your child is a toddler or all grown up and still living in your house.
(00:22):
Don't make this parenting gig harder than it needs to be.
Register to become a No Problem Parent. It comes with an app so you can listen
to the tips and tools just like you're listening to this podcast.
Click the link in the show notes or go to NoProblemParents.com.
Become a No Problem Parent today.
All right, welcome back, No Problem Parents. I'm your host, Jackie Finneman,
(00:43):
and today I have a special guest joining us, Mr. Andy Heller.
He's the author of Take the High Road, Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family.
Andy's journey from successful businessman man to advocate for compassionate
divorce offers invaluable insights for parents navigating the challenges of separation.
Welcome to the show, Andy.
(01:04):
Jackie, thanks for having me. Can't wait. I am just intrigued by the fact that
you wrote this book on divorce when it's really not even, you know,
wasn't on your radar to do so.
Your background is in business, but you've really become a passionate advocate
for compassionate divorce.
So share with us what inspired this transition in your life.
(01:24):
So basically, Jackie, I had a therapist I was seeing for my own divorce,
and I'm kind of a very level-headed guy.
I'm the guy in every group that people can go to for advice,
and I try to look at both sides.
And something happened with my ex, and I said, rather than act on it,
I said, I got this session. I'm going to go ahead and just bounce it off my therapist.
(01:45):
But I knew what I wanted. I knew how I want to handle it. So I walk into his
office, and I said, hey, this is what happened, but don't worry.
I've thought it through, and this is what I'm going to do.
And she went the whole therapy speak well you know andy it's good
that you feel that way blah blah blah blah blah but you're not going to do what
you're going to do you're going to do the opposite i'm like what what and after
i stopped badgering back i finally listened to her jackie i'm like oh my god
(02:07):
she's a hundred percent right i was a hundred percent wrong with what i had.
What's going to do. I realized at that moment how emotionally compromised I
was and not making good decisions.
Now, by this time, I'd read about a dozen other divorce books.
When I stress, I don't sleep a lot.
(02:29):
So I'd read a lot of other books and I noticed a gap in divorce book space.
So what I set out to do was to fill that gap.
So that began a seven-year project of interviews with field experts,
co-parenting counselors, therapists,
divorced attorneys, divorced couples who went through traumatic divorces and
(02:49):
landed in good spaces where they're co-parenting effectively.
I took all of these counsel from these experts and I put it into a kind of a
business best practices book for divorce.
And, you know, I'm humbled by a lot of things.
And one is all the reviews from particularly the therapy community,
some divorcees. I may have nailed something. So that's my story.
(03:12):
The fact that you said, hey, not only did that help you, but you're like,
all right, now I want to help other people. There's something to this and we
can make things just a little bit easier.
In the book, Take the High Road, you emphasize the importance of compassion
during divorce, which I think oftentimes parents might say those two words don't
go hand in hand, compassion and divorce.
(03:33):
You don't often hear them put together. But how How can parents model this behavior
for their children during such a challenging time?
How can you bring compassion into the equation?
Now, first I'll say, Jackie, it's not an easy thing to do in most cases. You're upset.
You're agitated. You could be hurt. You've got a whole cocktail of emotions,
(03:56):
and most of them are not good.
The best thing for dealing with your ex is you just got to ask yourself,
how would I want to be treated myself? myself.
And that's how you need to deal with most of the situations. And it's not easy.
And if you're not able to, no pun intended with the words, divorce yourself
from the predicament at that time, take a step back and just say to your ex,
(04:18):
I'll get back to you later or whatever. You need to calm down.
All right. With your kids, the most compassionate thing you can do for your
children, hands down, is get them in therapy. Why?
Well, you're dealing with a lot of drama yourself self. And even if it's not
a high conflict divorce, you're going from a one household environment to a
(04:39):
two household environment. Your life is being disrupted.
Okay. You can't be both the consoler and the disruptor in your children's lives.
So if they are seeing a therapist and they're having coping challenges that
you may not be aware of, the therapist will be an advocate for your kids.
(05:00):
Not for you. So that's the best thing you can do.
You know, with my ex, we had a high conflict divorce. We now are co-parenting effectively.
I've remarried Jackie. Things are great. But I got to say, in her world,
she had one of those blow up divorces where, you know, guy comes home,
somebody she knows, guy comes home and he was having an affair and kicks his wife out.
(05:29):
And Their lives were just completely disrupted. So she said,
we're not going to do it that way.
All right. And to her credit, she got our kids in therapy before we even let
them know about the divorce so that the therapist could help guide them.
That's another great tip, guys.
If you haven't yet separated, but you know it's inevitable, get your kids in
(05:52):
therapy before they learn about this. Why?
The way the therapist can establish a foundation so he or she can be a rudder
for your kids when they get the news, as opposed to being in damage control.
Okay. Point. Yeah. And that actually came from a California therapist I interviewed,
(06:12):
and she said she has since
made it a requirement for her clients to get the kids in therapy for at least
three months before they get the news because her ability to be impactful and
helpful for the kids is exponentially higher because of timing.
(06:32):
Alignment these are details that we parents again
this is why it's helpful to give your kids an
advocate the devil's in the details and
how you separate and you may not be realizing that
something about your process is going to actually make it more difficult on
your children where minor modifications and adjustments can make it so much
(06:55):
easier on them getting your kids in therapy ahead of time how did you do that
yourself as far as getting your kids into therapy if they don't I want to go.
I'm just going to be really what they say on ESPN, cold, hard facts.
You guys are the parents, not them. You need to insist on it.
And if you have to dangle something that means a lot to them,
like cell phone or TV time or video games, you do it.
(07:19):
They don't have a choice. Okay. And you want to look at it, everybody, as a gift.
Gift you're giving your kids the gift
of therapy because you need
they need help somebody one of the quotes in my book that's one of the most
powerful but scary quotes came from a divorcee i interviewed and he had a high
(07:46):
conflict divorce landed in a great place and he said andy we adults we will recover,
Most of us will find new partners or land in a good place where we have a good
life. The children never recover.
Now, I'm not sure. I think if you ask 100 therapists their take on that,
you'll get 100 different answers.
(08:06):
I think my takeaway from that statement is that the child's life will be forever
changed because they go from a single household to two households.
They go from being parented by two parents at the same time to one parent at one time.
And it is disruptive.
(08:28):
And we have an obligation as parents to minimize that disruption to the best of our abilities.
And there's no better gift that can do that than giving your kids an advocate that they can speak to.
And that's a trained children's therapist. Now, in my research,
I learned there's many different types of therapy.
(08:49):
Now, you can't, you know, a six and seven year old kids are not going to sit
on a couch and say, well, this is what my thoughts are.
There's a subset of therapy for kids called play therapy, where basically a
therapist plays with the kids.
And in doing that, she or he learns how well the kids are managing the disruption
(09:10):
in their lives. Now, you may think, I don't want to pay $200 an hour for somebody
to play games. I'll play games.
But it's worth it. And get yourself a good one. Probably the best money that you'll spend.
And that's the one place where you don't want a short change.
So as far as having that conversation with your kids, because I'm a no-problem
parenting, we're teaching about seeking first to understand,
(09:32):
preparing for the worst, and changing the conversation.
And I am a big proponent of not just putting your kids in therapy,
unless the child, unless unless
you have the conversation with them that says, explains or describes.
What the end goal is of therapy or what the reason for the therapy is.
I shared this before on the podcast that oftentimes when I'm working with families
(09:53):
who are divorced, sometimes the teens will say, yeah, my parents say the divorce
isn't my fault, but then why am I the one in therapy?
You know, if the parents aren't going or the kid is going. And so while I agree
wholeheartedly with you that having that, not mediator really,
but having that unbiased person, neutral, thank you.
That neutral person for the child or
(10:15):
teen to talk with is really vital
and key and can help uncover or bring to light some of the issues or challenges
or struggles that the kid are having that maybe you or the ex wouldn't even
know were going on because you're so into your own stuff or the child's just
really good at hiding it. I think therapy is great.
(10:35):
It's that how do you get them there and how do you share with them why you think
that's important without them thinking, oh, there's something wrong with me,
and I'm the reason mom and dad got divorced?
Well, I'm going to give two comments.
First of all, I don't think this is difficult for younger children.
It does get challenging when your kids get older.
(10:55):
So the first part of the answer is, I'm going to talk about myself for a second,
even though this book is not about me.
I'm a successful businessman, and during a co-parenting session with my ex,
the co-parenting counselor said, you know, you guys are dealing with a lot of
drama here. This is a high conflict divorce.
I recommend you each get therapists.
(11:16):
And I'm like, you know, can't hurt. So I asked for three recommendations of
therapists who dealt with divorced men, and I found a great one.
So the first part of the answer is, if you're seeing somebody yourself,
you can much easier say to that teenager, look, dad's doing it,
mom's doing it, and you're going to do it. Now, if you are not doing it yourself.
(11:40):
Then my recommendation is to say something that is very sensitive and kid-centric.
The honest answer is your mom and I, your dad and I, our lives are being disrupted,
and we need to make sure that there's an advocate for you and dedicated only
to you without all the noise going around, at least for a little while.
(12:02):
I would put it in terms of that. I need to make sure that there's an advocate
for you to hear you and help you navigate.
Andy, I love that you say that, that this is an advocate for you.
And the fact that sometimes our kids will actually try to take care of us through
the divorce, and that is not their job nor their role.
(12:23):
And so being sure that you're saying to the kids, because I don't want you to
just take my side or feel like you have to take care of me or just take mom's
side and feel like you have to take care of her.
This is a great way for you to have an advocate to make sure that your needs
are being met and you're being taken care of. I love that.
Co-parenting can be, oh man, just a significant challenge for divorced parents.
(12:46):
And then if you're in a more sticky situation or more traumatic kind of divorce,
it can be 10 times harder.
What advice do you have for parents who are struggling to kind of navigate the
co-parenting aspect of the relationship?
One third of my book is that advice.
I'll give you one of my favorite ones. To involve a referee.
(13:08):
And the trained referee is what we call a co-parenting counselor.
Now, the beauty about this, everybody, is you pay per usage.
Actually, it's like it's a job that is designed for the employer to become unemployed. Thank you.
Because there's going to be a motivation for you because you don't want to pay
(13:30):
this money to get to a point where you don't need that person.
So the way it would work, everybody, it's typically a somebody from your field, a trained therapist.
Sometimes it's actually a former judge, a former attorney.
They go into co-parenting. So the couple comes in and says, OK,
these are the things that we're dealing with right now.
(13:51):
And the co-parenting counselor, the good ones in a one or two hour session are
trained to help you arrive at compromises and decisions that need to be made
even though you're not able to get along because your kids'
lives will not pause while you and your ex reach a point where you guys can
(14:11):
co-parent effectively.
That's why you need this co-parenting counselor.
So it might look like this in a perfect world.
You go once a month for the first six to 12 months.
You're actually able to get some things accomplished on your own.
And then you start going every six weeks. Then you start going every two months.
(14:32):
Then you start going once a quarter. Then you go twice a year.
Then you go as needed. Then you stop going.
That's how the process will look. There's other Other tools like Family Wizard,
online tools, and for basically communication and managing communications,
expenses and stuff like that.
Those are all really helpful, but they're not going to help you reach decisions
(14:55):
on, do we really put little Johnny in ballet?
He doesn't want to do it. Or does he go to basketball?
All right. What about the tutoring that our daughter needs and she doesn't want
to do that? So this is where you need some help.
And I will say I actually do believe I'm not being corny here, everybody.
(15:16):
I do believe that there's a financial savings here, because typically the longer
people are fighting, the more it costs, both emotional and financial.
And if a co-parenting counselor who is a trained professional in a once-a-month
session can help you reach seven or eight decisions that you are going to otherwise fight about.
(15:41):
Guys, that's money in the bank. Take it and run with it. So that's my favorite suggestion.
But again, probably about a third of my book deals with how to co-parent with
somebody you couldn't live with.
Don't lose sight of the fact that your children need something fun to look forward to.
Your life is blowing up, all right?
(16:03):
And I'm a big believer in talking about in one of my chapters,
actually making sure there's something fun for you, yourself,
also for your children. Why is the former important?
Well, the former is important because you got to keep your sanity.
And for many people, like, well, it's all about the kids. It's all about the
(16:23):
kids. It's all about the kids. It is.
But if you lose your marbles because you're so stressed out,
you're worried about going back into the workforce,
or you're worried about cooking a healthy dinner and you've never cooked before,
whatever your stressors can be, put something on the calendar that's for you to look forward to.
Like you always want to join a bowling league, do it. You always want to join a book club, do it.
(16:47):
And that is going to help you get through those challenging months and actually
make you a better parent.
I'll tell you about one of my chapters. That's a really funny one.
It's, it's, um, so the way the book is designed, everybody, there's 46 different
chapters, which are each chapter is essentially a tip.
And there's four sections. One section about pre-divorce, about choosing the
(17:09):
right divorce strategy, be it a kitchen table divorce, picking the right attorney,
managing your attorney, et cetera.
Then there's the chapter about dealing with your ex, yourself.
And co-parenting with your kids. Okay. So...
There's one of the chapters I'm like, oh, you know what? This is a great tip, but it kind of hokey.
(17:31):
But I put it in and it is like the most asked about chapter in all of my podcasts.
And I think that the title of chapter is the rubber suit.
And it came as a tip from a divorcee.
And he was co-parenting for three months in the home that they used to share.
(17:54):
He moved in with a buddy while he
waited to get his own place and like he said you know
i i don't fault my ex but she doesn't realize how rude she's being to me and
how uncomfortable i am co-parenting in her home i don't even have a home right
now and i'm trying to be a good dad and and insults with flying this and that
(18:15):
so what he did before he walked in the door he envisioned he put
on imaginary rubber suit and every insult would bounce off him.
And he played a game like, okay, let's see if I can get a better insult this time than last time.
And it is, it sounded really hokey,
but, but what it is is that most divorcees, the big takeaway point from that
(18:39):
chapter is most divorcees need a coping mechanism for those first months,
months, even maybe years,
because your ex is not realizing he or she is being rude very often and disrespectful.
You're realizing it, but they're not.
Now, the good news is, everybody, it almost always improves,
(19:03):
but we do need coping mechanisms in place while it's happening so that you can
still be an effective parent if you're being insulted,
even unintentionally, in the presence of your kids.
So the rubber suit was that chapter that dealt with one dad's wacky coping mechanism.
(19:25):
And the takeaway point is that everybody is pretty healthy to take a step back
and say, how am I going to deal with this when I'm in the company of my ex,
when I'm sitting at that ballet a recital and we're sitting together like the
co-parenting counselors tell us to do. I don't, I don't want to be there.
What's my strategy going to be?
(19:46):
To cope with that so I can be there with a smile and joy in my children.
Love that. Are you speaking primarily to men? Is it men and women, moms and dads?
My book was written in a unisex manner. The counsel effect, I've probably got
more compliments from women than men because my gender, we don't read enough
(20:06):
self-help books. We should.
I do it in one point of the book, Jackie, I do note that the writer is a man.
But the advice is completely intended to be equally valuable for both gender,
genders, and it doesn't skew one way or the other.
We have a lot of stories that I changed the names, I changed some details.
(20:28):
But these are stories that have come from high conflict divorces,
stories that we can learn from. And they're very equally balanced.
As corny as this sounds, if you can get a copy in the hand of both you and your divorce and spouse,
then you can have a framework by which you guys can hopefully divorce in a manner
(20:52):
that is not as disruptive to your children and healthier for you.
I'm really humbled because I'm a businessman. I'm a successful businessman.
I wrote this book as corny as it sounds, Jackie, to help people.
This is not a moneymaker, everybody. I've got a successful business.
But if it doesn't get in the hands of people, it's not going to help people.
(21:13):
And all of you know somebody who's getting divorced or a therapist who deals
with divorcees, my book would be a fantastic rudder for them.
If you are going through divorce or you're likely to go through divorce or you
have been through divorce and you're struggling still, divorce is a marathon. It's not a sprint.
(21:34):
And almost always your life gets better over time.
And while I might be a glass half full guy, that is tends to be the fact.
And when I put my book together, I interviewed countless couples who they themselves
went through high conflict divorces, and they all said the same thing.
(21:55):
I didn't think it would get better. Life couldn't get much worse.
And I eventually landed in a place
where I'm enjoying my life and I can co-parent effectively with my ex.
Maybe not optimally, but effectively.
Now, my hope is you get to a point where you can do it optimally in a two-household environment.
(22:17):
You have resources like Jackie's podcast, like my book.
But if you do find yourself getting down, it typically does get better.
And it's okay to get down a bit because it's disruptive.
You don't have to be that all like macho or super strong lady that,
hey, this doesn't affect.
No, it's going to affect you because it's disruptive.
(22:39):
Even if you want a divorce, it's disruptive because now you've got a lot more
pressure on you in a two household environment.
But it does typically get better. And remind yourself of that.
And I do mention that throughout my book. book, sometimes that will help you
during the periods when it is difficult.
Yeah, good advice. Good advice. We don't know what we don't know.
(23:01):
And often we fear the unknown.
And then the stinking thinking comes into play.
And we fill our minds with all these negative thoughts and all these shoulds
and shouldn'ts and just all the things.
And it's like, yeah, take a deep breath. It's hard sometimes to foresee the
future being bright again.
But we just one foot in front of the other day in, day out, you can get there.
(23:21):
And I think Your book is definitely supporting parents and helping them get
to that point where they see that light at the end of the tunnel and the bright
light in their lives again.
So thank you so much, Andy, for being with me today.
Listeners, remember that navigating divorce is never easy, but Take the High
Road is here to support you.
We're going to have links in the show notes for you to grab that book.
(23:44):
Andy, I just thank you so much for being with me on the show.
Jackie, it's been my pleasure. And anytime you want me back, I'd love to.
All right, that's it for today's episode of the No Problem Parenting Podcast.
Hey, thanks guys for tuning in. If you found value in today's episode,
click the subscribe button and share it with other parents who might need a little boost.
Stay connected on our socials by following at No Problem Parents for more parenting
(24:08):
tips and get your free download of the 60 ways to respond to your kids without losing your cool.
Go to noproblemparents.com. Until next time, Remember, your confidence comes
from embracing both successes and setbacks.
So take a deep breath, embrace the chaos, and remember, you got this.
Music.
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