September 30, 2025 • 21 mins
How do you forgive someone while still protecting the people you love?
In this bonus episode, Brody clarifies the story behind a 3 a.m. call, a threatening voicemail, and the difficult choice to forgive a teen—while still protecting his daughters and community.
He digs deeper into why grace doesn’t erase consequences and what Scripture teaches about trust, safety, and redemption. If the last episode left you with questions, this one brings clarity and hope.
Is Forgiveness Always Required (Parts 1 + 2)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I'd like to record just some follow-up thoughts
from this past Monday's episode.
The reason I want to do this,it's it's actually Tuesday
morning right now, and what Iwhat I did is I went back and
listened to it.
And y'all, it was raining so badwhen I was recording that in the
truck that it came throughpretty, I don't know, pretty,
(00:23):
pretty loud, pretty rough.
Um, and so I just wanna I'mgonna leave it up.
I talked to JB, we're gonnaleave it up, but I'm gonna just
give some some more concisethoughts to go along with that.
And it m so if you didn't listento that last episode, you don't
have to go back and listen toit.
I'll cover the same basiccontent.
(00:45):
I'll do it more in a more briefformat and just give some
thoughts and ideas that maybewill be a little easier to track
and follow along.
I did get some feedback from afew people saying they they
liked that last episode, whichis funny because I was listening
to it and I was like, oh mygosh, it's so obnoxious, the
(01:05):
rain pounding, and I'm yellingbecause I was in the truck and I
wasn't sure if if you'd be ableto hear me with that.
I mean, I was driving in amonsoon.
At one point, I even made acomment, well, this is good for
my food plots.
That's where my head was.
I'm driving along thinking, youknow, we hadn't had rain in a
couple weeks at that point, andI was I was like, man, this is
(01:27):
great.
But anyway, what I want to dohere is just a little bonus
episode to nail down the mainthoughts and ideas and talking
points from that episode.
So welcome to this bonus episodeof No Sanity Required.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of
Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters,a podcast about the Bible,
culture, and stories from aroundthe globe.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
The point of the story that I told in that last
episode, and again, if youdidn't listen to that episode,
then let me just tell that storyand much more briefly.
What happened was years ago, oneof my daughters came under a
threat, and it turned out to notbe a threat at all.
But what happened was I receiveda phone call in the middle of
(02:20):
the night one night.
I was on the road, I was prettyfar from home, my phone rang, it
was a blocked and scramblednumber, and it was and a
voicemail was left.
I didn't answer the phone, Isent it to voicemail thinking
that it was my alarm going off.
It was this was at three or fourin the morning.
I think it was three o'clock inthe morning.
And my alarm was set for likefour or four thirty.
(02:43):
And I think just when I woke upto that phone ring and I thought
it was the alarm going off, andI just kind of reached over and
and bumped the phone.
And uh, and so I'm laying thereand I hear the voicemail
notification.
So I sit up on the edge of thebed and I listened to the
voicemail.
It was a very perverse, dark,threatening phone call about my
(03:07):
daughter, one of my daughters.
So I raced home.
I was probably three hours fromhome.
I raced home, got my wife on thephone.
It took me a few minutes to gether on the phone because she was
dead asleep, got her on thephone, uh, alerted her that I
thought maybe my family was indanger.
This this phone call was realperverted.
(03:29):
It was very sexual, and then itwas also uh it had it was laced
with obscenities, um, F bombs,uh sexual by nature, comments
about my daughter, and but alsojust had a threatening feel to
it.
And it was from a blockednumber, so I had no idea who
sent it.
So I got home by daylight, bysun up that morning, I got home.
(03:52):
I I made good time and I hustledhome and got to my family and
started an investigation withthe local police, with local
sheriff's office with theircyber detective, and he was able
to track down the the source ofthe call.
And so I I was able to set up ameeting with this man who the
phone was registered to, and itturned out he was from a church
(04:16):
that attends Snowbird.
And so I went, met with him.
It was his son that had left thecall, a a teenage boy who was at
the time, my the daughter thatwas threatened was about twelve
years old.
So this kid was was severalyears older than her.
I'm gonna say 17, something likethat.
And I don't know why he did whathe did.
(04:37):
It was really dark, it wasreally demented, it was really
uh messed up.
But I also know that when I wasa teenager, when I was a
17-year-old boy, I did thingsthat were dark and demented and
messed up.
I didn't do something like this.
I think, you know, it's easy tominimize our own sin and and say
something like, Well, I wouldhave never done that.
I did X, Y, and Z, but I didn'tdo that, what this guy did.
(05:01):
So I don't want to do thatbecause I know I did things that
were very broken and sinful, andwe all have.
We've all fallen short of God'sglory, and I believe this young
man was repentant, especiallywhen when he was confronted with
him.
And it was pretty intense.
We drove, my son and I drove tomeet with this boy and his dad,
(05:23):
and we had the pastor of thechurch there, it was the student
pastor at the time, who's areally good friend of mine, a
close and dear brother.
And so we worked through thisthing together, and what we came
up with was that that young manwould not be allowed back at
Snowbird.
The reason I want to be clear,and I hope this didn't get lost
(05:43):
in the first episode.
The reason we weren't allowinghim back to Snowbird is we
needed our girls to know that wewould protect them.
Because when I got that call, Ihad to let my family know
someone has threatened one ofthe girls.
And we have to be vigilant.
And I remember there there was astretch of time there.
(06:05):
It took a couple of weeks beforewe got to the bottom of it.
And during those two weeks, Iwas locking the doors at night,
going through the house.
If I had to be away, if I had tobe over at camp, I would go to
the house.
Literally, I would go throughthe entire house to make sure no
one was in my house.
I can remember going from top tobottom.
It's a three-story house becausewe finished our basement and
(06:27):
then we have a loft bedroom.
So I'd go from the loft to thebasement, look in every closet,
look in every corner of thehouse, make sure nobody had come
into my house.
I'd look around the house, Iwould lock my family inside, and
then I would go back forwhatever events were going on at
Snowbird for the evening becausea lot of nights I don't get home
till midnight or later.
(06:47):
So I'd go back, you know, forthe for for two, three hours to
Snowbird to camp.
And it was pretty scary for myfamily because we had to, I
played that, I played thatmessage for my kids because I
wanted them to be afraid.
I wanted them, as my three olderkids, I played it for.
(07:08):
I wanted them to be super alertand aware and not be just aloof,
you know.
And so by doing that, I'd put alot of fear into my family.
And so I needed to show themthat, hey, we found out who did
this and we he will not becoming around.
Don't worry about it.
And that was the right move.
My I talked about it through theyears, and my girls felt like,
(07:29):
you know, we felt veryprotected, we felt very cared
for.
Um, it would have been confusingif you'd have said, oh, it was
just a kid playing a joke.
Now we can just move on and hecan come back to camp.
That wouldn't have gone well.
And so I wanted to make thepoint in in these two episodes
to kind of tie into the episodeon reconciliation, forgiveness,
(07:51):
and repentance.
That sometimes you can say, I'msorry, you can ask for
forgiveness, two people can bereconciled, but then the nature
or the dynamics of thatrelationship don't go back to
what they used to be.
An example would be a husbandwho is unfaithful to his wife.
He may ask for her forgiveness,she may extend it to him, they
(08:12):
may be reconciled, they mightenter into counseling, but then
he can't get upset when shedoesn't fully trust him for a
long, long time, maybe, youknow, maybe ever.
That's just the consequence ofhis action.
And he he doesn't have a right.
I've we've counseled people inthe situation where one spouse
(08:33):
was unfaithful, the other spousefrom that point forward had a
really difficult time withtrust.
They had trust issues towardthat spouse.
And I get that.
That's that's understandable.
You know, you you betray aperson's trust and you can't
just go back to life the way itwas.
There's there's a there's a alack of trust that I think you
(08:55):
could say that that's alingering consequence.
You know, the sin has beenforgiven and the relationship's
been restored, but I don't evertotally fully trust that person
the way that I used to.
So that would be an example.
Another example would be where Ihate to use the word
consequence, but where the theimpact or the results of
(09:19):
someone's sin linger.
So let's say that that man isunfaithful to his wife, and I
know a scenario where thishappened.
I actually know multiplescenarios where this happened,
multiple situations where thisscenario happened.
He's unfaithful and he gets theother woman pregnant, and uh now
there's a child, and so thechild is brought into the world,
(09:44):
and the consequences of thatmight last for a couple
generations, even, maybe more.
There was a family I knew 30years ago, and the husband got a
divorce, he remarried, then hehad an affair with the first
wife.
So with his ex-wife, who he haddivorced, they she got pregnant,
(10:09):
they had a child together, buthe had moved on into this new
marriage, and so it created thiscrazy, I mean, a wild family
dynamic because the second wifewanted to make it work, and so
they ended up sort ofco-parenting this kid.
But but I will tell you this: there was a lot of grace the (10:23):
undefined
Lord extended to that family,but there was a ton of
dysfunction.
I mean, there was a lot ofdysfunction in that family.
It was it was pretty messed up.
And so sometimes theconsequences linger.
I I said I hate to use the wordconsequence to describe a child
or a human life, but theconsequence I'm referring to is
(10:46):
the the broken relationships,the dysfunctional dynamic.
And you gotta learn how to workwith that and live through that
and work through that.
And the Lord is his He givesmore grace and He gives us what
we need to get through thosesituations.
And um there was a there was a,you know, a time where in that
first story I told, that boy'sparents, they were very critical
(11:09):
of me and of Snowbird because wedidn't allow that young man to
come back.
And I tried to explain to themwe forgive him and and we can
move forward in therelationship.
He just he can't come here.
He he burned that bridge.
It's not a lack of grace, we'renot withholding forgiveness,
it's just lingeringconsequences.
(11:30):
And that's a hard principle.
And the point I was trying tomake in that last episode was as
a as a father to daughters,there's a there's a a part of
you that will do anything toprotect those girls.
And and part of that is makingthem feel protected.
They feel loved and cared forwhen they feel protected.
(11:51):
And so that was that was what Iwas committed to.
Little was committed to.
I remember talking to Little andsaying, Am I doing the wrong
thing?
Am I being too heavy-handed?
And she said, Absolutely not.
These are our girls we'retalking about.
They need to know that they aresafe in their home.
They need to know that theymatter to you more than ministry
uh at Snowbird matters to you.
(12:11):
And so that was important, and Ifeel like we were able to convey
that to our girls.
The illustrations I used fromScripture were the three stories
that I hope sort of drove thatpoint home.
One was Moses, God forgave Mosesfor his sin, but the
consequences of Moses' actionslingered.
For 40 years he didn't get to gointo the promised land.
(12:31):
So you could say, well, where'sthe forgiveness?
Where's the grace?
Well, the grace, the gracedoesn't mean that Moses just got
to do what Moses wanted to do.
There were consequences to hisaction.
Same thing with David.
We talked about David's sin inthat in that episode and how he
not only did he commit thisterrible act of adultery, and
not only did he kill the husbandof the woman to cover it up, he
(12:55):
killed a bunch of people tocover it up.
I mean, he killed several men, awhole, like an entire platoon of
men, you know, an entirefighting force.
He sent them into a suicidemission to get them all killed
so that he could try to hide hissin, but he didn't hide it
because God made it clear, andthe result was there were
consequences to it.
(13:16):
And those consequences lingered.
But God's grace was sufficientfor David.
Even when you see thedysfunction in his family, you
don't go, man, where's thegrace?
Why is all this going on?
Why didn't God just makeeverything back to happy and
healthy and wholesome andeverybody loves everybody?
And it's like a 1950s or 60ssitcom.
(13:37):
Because that's not how itworked.
There were consequences to thoseactions.
And sometimes we got to livewith consequences to our
actions, and that's what welearned in David's story.
And then the uh the other storythat I told, the story about
John Mark, I love that storybecause we see eventually those
consequences do, they do getkind of put on a shelf or put
(14:01):
behind them and they go away,and John Mark is restored to his
position on a ministry team, andthe Lord really uses that.
He really uses it.
And ends up using John Mark in apowerful way because Paul says
of him, John Mark is useful tome for ministry.
And I love that.
I love that he went from beingkicked off the team, not kicked
(14:24):
off the team, he quit the teamand then wasn't allowed back on
the team.
But then eventually he wasrestored back, not just to
fellowship with Paul and therest of the team, but he was
restored back to ministryresponsibility.
He was given responsibility,which is really cool.
I love that story.
So in that story, you get to seeit, you know, all come full
(14:45):
circle.
So the the principle, the pointthat I was making was that in
our lives sometimes we have tolive with the consequences of
our actions even after God hasgiven us forgiveness.
And that can be very scary.
I don't want to have I don'twant to live like with that.
I want to be set free from thoseconsequences.
I want to be released from that.
(15:09):
But sometimes that's just howit's gonna go.
And what I need to know is thatthe Lord will give me what I
need to endure difficulties ofputting my life back together
after a broken relationship, oryou know, finding out that
someone I care about or that Ilove deeply has betrayed me, or
(15:32):
um or that I've betrayed someoneor their trust, that the Lord
will help me and He'll helpthem.
And what we have to do is walkin humility and grace, extend
that grace to the Lord, extendit to others, and remember that
grace has a backbone.
I can extend forgiveness tosomeone else, but that doesn't
(15:53):
mean that I'm just gonna letthem come back into my life in
the same manner in which theyonce lived.
I mentioned the I've mentionedhere the story from last March
about a guy in ministry thatreally did a lot of damage.
And to this day, he's notwelcome here because he came
(16:14):
here and betrayed our trust anddid a lot of damage.
I hope and pray that that man istruly repentant and he's walking
with the Lord, but he's notgoing to be allowed to come back
to Snowbird because he came hereand he was predatory and he did
things that caused a lot ofdamage and pain in people's
lives.
And so the consequences to hisactions affect a lot of people.
(16:36):
They affect his own family, theyaffect I mean, he he was he he
had an opportunity to be reallyeffective in ministry and he and
he took advantage of that in ain a bad way, and so the result
is that he can't come back.
So anyway, I wanted to justshare a little bit of clarifying
thoughts.
And I don't know that thesethoughts are any clearer than
(16:57):
the first episode, but maybeit's not as loud.
For some people, I don't thinkit mattered.
They're good listening throughthat.
But for some people, it mighthave been distracting that
background noise.
So I just want to give someclarifying thoughts.
Uh let me know what you think,or if you got questions, if that
if that doesn't tidy things up,please let me know.
But just remember to extendgrace to others and to seek
(17:18):
reconciliation, that's ourthat's our goal.
We are ministers ofreconciliation, but sometimes
actions have lingeringconsequences, and what I've got
to do is make sure my heart isright before the Lord.
Let me close with this thought.
My heart and attitude towardsthat young man in the story was
not bad.
I forgave him.
I was truly, I moved on, I movedpast it.
(17:42):
But I had to, with convictionand like like make some
decisions that wereuncomfortable for a lot of
people.
I forgave him, and in my mind,my heart was settled, my mind
was settled before the Lord.
He just couldn't, he justcouldn't be here on this
property and and send thatmessage to the ladies that we're
(18:03):
responsible for, here the youngladies, my own children as well
as some other gals, you know,staff girls, and because we had
spread that story, we wantedeverybody to be alert.
So everybody was kind of in aheightened sense of alert
awareness.
And so um I stand by thatdecision, sought counsel on it
too.
Had I remember uh Rob was veryinvolved in that and several
(18:24):
other guys, um, and we made thatdecision and and we stand by it,
and and I can honestly say Iforgive that young man.
I want the best for him, and Ithink he's gone on and and is
doing well in in his adulthood,um, to my knowledge.
And I'm grateful for that pastorthat that that worked through
that with us, and he continuedto minister to that family, to
my knowledge.
(18:44):
And um so it just takes all ofus being faithful, and sometimes
uncomfortable situations uharise, and we just got to work
through them and do the best wecan.
Keep your mind set on Christ andkeep your, you know, keep stay
in the word, keep your yourfocus, daily renewal of your
mind through the word of God andthe washing of of his word over
(19:06):
our mind and live withconviction and everything will
be fine.
Everything will work out in yourlife for God's glory and for
your good.
Um, yeah, bonus episode.
Might not have needed it, mighthave been just fine the way we
were, but I felt like sharingthose thoughts and uh excited
again for the next coupleepisodes we've got coming up.
We got some the next fewepisodes, we got some incredible
(19:27):
interviews coming up, and I'mreally excited for y'all to hear
them.
We just, JB and I just sat downwith Emily Foreman and her
husband Lewis.
Those are not their actualnames, those are pseudonyms to
protect identities because umthey are they are in some pretty
intense ministry um in a part ofthe world where uh there's some
(19:50):
radical jihad, you know, someradicalized uh Islamic uh I
guess terrorists would be theword that operate there.
And so Emily's first husband,Stephen, was murdered.
He was martyred, he was killedfor his faith, gunned down in
the street.
And we tell her story, we listento it, and we we talk to them.
(20:11):
JB and I talk to them.
Uh it takes a couple episodes towork through their story and
what now and their uh as she'sremarried to Lewis, what they're
doing to continue the work thatStephen died for.
It's just awesome.
It's it's one of the mostpowerful stories I've ever
heard.
I've known them for some time,very close personal friends to
(20:31):
our family.
And then also, I think Imentioned we have a a really
cool uh No Sanity story from aformer staff member that um is
coming up too.
So several stories coming up,and I'm excited for y'all to
hear those.
And uh hope you have an awesomeweek this week.
Uh awesome rest of your week,and we'll see you soon, Lord
willing.
Maybe you get up to Snowbird.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required.
Please take a moment tosubscribe and leave a rating.
It really helps.
Visit us at swoutfitters.com tosee all of our programming and
resources.
And we'll see you next week onNo Sanity Required.
I'd like to record just some follow-up thoughts
from this past Monday's episode.
The reason I want to do this,it's it's actually Tuesday
morning right now, and what Iwhat I did is I went back and
listened to it.
And y'all, it was raining so badwhen I was recording that in the
truck that it came throughpretty, I don't know, pretty,
(00:23):
pretty loud, pretty rough.
Um, and so I just wanna I'mgonna leave it up.
I talked to JB, we're gonnaleave it up, but I'm gonna just
give some some more concisethoughts to go along with that.
And it m so if you didn't listento that last episode, you don't
have to go back and listen toit.
I'll cover the same basiccontent.
(00:45):
I'll do it more in a more briefformat and just give some
thoughts and ideas that maybewill be a little easier to track
and follow along.
I did get some feedback from afew people saying they they
liked that last episode, whichis funny because I was listening
to it and I was like, oh mygosh, it's so obnoxious, the
(01:05):
rain pounding, and I'm yellingbecause I was in the truck and I
wasn't sure if if you'd be ableto hear me with that.
I mean, I was driving in amonsoon.
At one point, I even made acomment, well, this is good for
my food plots.
That's where my head was.
I'm driving along thinking, youknow, we hadn't had rain in a
couple weeks at that point, andI was I was like, man, this is
(01:27):
great.
But anyway, what I want to dohere is just a little bonus
episode to nail down the mainthoughts and ideas and talking
points from that episode.
So welcome to this bonus episodeof No Sanity Required.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of
Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters,a podcast about the Bible,
culture, and stories from aroundthe globe.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
The point of the story that I told in that last
episode, and again, if youdidn't listen to that episode,
then let me just tell that storyand much more briefly.
What happened was years ago, oneof my daughters came under a
threat, and it turned out to notbe a threat at all.
But what happened was I receiveda phone call in the middle of
(02:20):
the night one night.
I was on the road, I was prettyfar from home, my phone rang, it
was a blocked and scramblednumber, and it was and a
voicemail was left.
I didn't answer the phone, Isent it to voicemail thinking
that it was my alarm going off.
It was this was at three or fourin the morning.
I think it was three o'clock inthe morning.
And my alarm was set for likefour or four thirty.
(02:43):
And I think just when I woke upto that phone ring and I thought
it was the alarm going off, andI just kind of reached over and
and bumped the phone.
And uh, and so I'm laying thereand I hear the voicemail
notification.
So I sit up on the edge of thebed and I listened to the
voicemail.
It was a very perverse, dark,threatening phone call about my
(03:07):
daughter, one of my daughters.
So I raced home.
I was probably three hours fromhome.
I raced home, got my wife on thephone.
It took me a few minutes to gether on the phone because she was
dead asleep, got her on thephone, uh, alerted her that I
thought maybe my family was indanger.
This this phone call was realperverted.
(03:29):
It was very sexual, and then itwas also uh it had it was laced
with obscenities, um, F bombs,uh sexual by nature, comments
about my daughter, and but alsojust had a threatening feel to
it.
And it was from a blockednumber, so I had no idea who
sent it.
So I got home by daylight, bysun up that morning, I got home.
(03:52):
I I made good time and I hustledhome and got to my family and
started an investigation withthe local police, with local
sheriff's office with theircyber detective, and he was able
to track down the the source ofthe call.
And so I I was able to set up ameeting with this man who the
phone was registered to, and itturned out he was from a church
(04:16):
that attends Snowbird.
And so I went, met with him.
It was his son that had left thecall, a a teenage boy who was at
the time, my the daughter thatwas threatened was about twelve
years old.
So this kid was was severalyears older than her.
I'm gonna say 17, something likethat.
And I don't know why he did whathe did.
(04:37):
It was really dark, it wasreally demented, it was really
uh messed up.
But I also know that when I wasa teenager, when I was a
17-year-old boy, I did thingsthat were dark and demented and
messed up.
I didn't do something like this.
I think, you know, it's easy tominimize our own sin and and say
something like, Well, I wouldhave never done that.
I did X, Y, and Z, but I didn'tdo that, what this guy did.
(05:01):
So I don't want to do thatbecause I know I did things that
were very broken and sinful, andwe all have.
We've all fallen short of God'sglory, and I believe this young
man was repentant, especiallywhen when he was confronted with
him.
And it was pretty intense.
We drove, my son and I drove tomeet with this boy and his dad,
(05:23):
and we had the pastor of thechurch there, it was the student
pastor at the time, who's areally good friend of mine, a
close and dear brother.
And so we worked through thisthing together, and what we came
up with was that that young manwould not be allowed back at
Snowbird.
The reason I want to be clear,and I hope this didn't get lost
(05:43):
in the first episode.
The reason we weren't allowinghim back to Snowbird is we
needed our girls to know that wewould protect them.
Because when I got that call, Ihad to let my family know
someone has threatened one ofthe girls.
And we have to be vigilant.
And I remember there there was astretch of time there.
(06:05):
It took a couple of weeks beforewe got to the bottom of it.
And during those two weeks, Iwas locking the doors at night,
going through the house.
If I had to be away, if I had tobe over at camp, I would go to
the house.
Literally, I would go throughthe entire house to make sure no
one was in my house.
I can remember going from top tobottom.
It's a three-story house becausewe finished our basement and
(06:27):
then we have a loft bedroom.
So I'd go from the loft to thebasement, look in every closet,
look in every corner of thehouse, make sure nobody had come
into my house.
I'd look around the house, Iwould lock my family inside, and
then I would go back forwhatever events were going on at
Snowbird for the evening becausea lot of nights I don't get home
till midnight or later.
(06:47):
So I'd go back, you know, forthe for for two, three hours to
Snowbird to camp.
And it was pretty scary for myfamily because we had to, I
played that, I played thatmessage for my kids because I
wanted them to be afraid.
I wanted them, as my three olderkids, I played it for.
(07:08):
I wanted them to be super alertand aware and not be just aloof,
you know.
And so by doing that, I'd put alot of fear into my family.
And so I needed to show themthat, hey, we found out who did
this and we he will not becoming around.
Don't worry about it.
And that was the right move.
My I talked about it through theyears, and my girls felt like,
(07:29):
you know, we felt veryprotected, we felt very cared
for.
Um, it would have been confusingif you'd have said, oh, it was
just a kid playing a joke.
Now we can just move on and hecan come back to camp.
That wouldn't have gone well.
And so I wanted to make thepoint in in these two episodes
to kind of tie into the episodeon reconciliation, forgiveness,
(07:51):
and repentance.
That sometimes you can say, I'msorry, you can ask for
forgiveness, two people can bereconciled, but then the nature
or the dynamics of thatrelationship don't go back to
what they used to be.
An example would be a husbandwho is unfaithful to his wife.
He may ask for her forgiveness,she may extend it to him, they
(08:12):
may be reconciled, they mightenter into counseling, but then
he can't get upset when shedoesn't fully trust him for a
long, long time, maybe, youknow, maybe ever.
That's just the consequence ofhis action.
And he he doesn't have a right.
I've we've counseled people inthe situation where one spouse
(08:33):
was unfaithful, the other spousefrom that point forward had a
really difficult time withtrust.
They had trust issues towardthat spouse.
And I get that.
That's that's understandable.
You know, you you betray aperson's trust and you can't
just go back to life the way itwas.
There's there's a there's a alack of trust that I think you
(08:55):
could say that that's alingering consequence.
You know, the sin has beenforgiven and the relationship's
been restored, but I don't evertotally fully trust that person
the way that I used to.
So that would be an example.
Another example would be where Ihate to use the word
consequence, but where the theimpact or the results of
(09:19):
someone's sin linger.
So let's say that that man isunfaithful to his wife, and I
know a scenario where thishappened.
I actually know multiplescenarios where this happened,
multiple situations where thisscenario happened.
He's unfaithful and he gets theother woman pregnant, and uh now
there's a child, and so thechild is brought into the world,
(09:44):
and the consequences of thatmight last for a couple
generations, even, maybe more.
There was a family I knew 30years ago, and the husband got a
divorce, he remarried, then hehad an affair with the first
wife.
So with his ex-wife, who he haddivorced, they she got pregnant,
(10:09):
they had a child together, buthe had moved on into this new
marriage, and so it created thiscrazy, I mean, a wild family
dynamic because the second wifewanted to make it work, and so
they ended up sort ofco-parenting this kid.
But but I will tell you this: there was a lot of grace the (10:23):
undefined
Lord extended to that family,but there was a ton of
dysfunction.
I mean, there was a lot ofdysfunction in that family.
It was it was pretty messed up.
And so sometimes theconsequences linger.
I I said I hate to use the wordconsequence to describe a child
or a human life, but theconsequence I'm referring to is
(10:46):
the the broken relationships,the dysfunctional dynamic.
And you gotta learn how to workwith that and live through that
and work through that.
And the Lord is his He givesmore grace and He gives us what
we need to get through thosesituations.
And um there was a there was a,you know, a time where in that
first story I told, that boy'sparents, they were very critical
(11:09):
of me and of Snowbird because wedidn't allow that young man to
come back.
And I tried to explain to themwe forgive him and and we can
move forward in therelationship.
He just he can't come here.
He he burned that bridge.
It's not a lack of grace, we'renot withholding forgiveness,
it's just lingeringconsequences.
(11:30):
And that's a hard principle.
And the point I was trying tomake in that last episode was as
a as a father to daughters,there's a there's a a part of
you that will do anything toprotect those girls.
And and part of that is makingthem feel protected.
They feel loved and cared forwhen they feel protected.
(11:51):
And so that was that was what Iwas committed to.
Little was committed to.
I remember talking to Little andsaying, Am I doing the wrong
thing?
Am I being too heavy-handed?
And she said, Absolutely not.
These are our girls we'retalking about.
They need to know that they aresafe in their home.
They need to know that theymatter to you more than ministry
uh at Snowbird matters to you.
(12:11):
And so that was important, and Ifeel like we were able to convey
that to our girls.
The illustrations I used fromScripture were the three stories
that I hope sort of drove thatpoint home.
One was Moses, God forgave Mosesfor his sin, but the
consequences of Moses' actionslingered.
For 40 years he didn't get to gointo the promised land.
(12:31):
So you could say, well, where'sthe forgiveness?
Where's the grace?
Well, the grace, the gracedoesn't mean that Moses just got
to do what Moses wanted to do.
There were consequences to hisaction.
Same thing with David.
We talked about David's sin inthat in that episode and how he
not only did he commit thisterrible act of adultery, and
not only did he kill the husbandof the woman to cover it up, he
(12:55):
killed a bunch of people tocover it up.
I mean, he killed several men, awhole, like an entire platoon of
men, you know, an entirefighting force.
He sent them into a suicidemission to get them all killed
so that he could try to hide hissin, but he didn't hide it
because God made it clear, andthe result was there were
consequences to it.
(13:16):
And those consequences lingered.
But God's grace was sufficientfor David.
Even when you see thedysfunction in his family, you
don't go, man, where's thegrace?
Why is all this going on?
Why didn't God just makeeverything back to happy and
healthy and wholesome andeverybody loves everybody?
And it's like a 1950s or 60ssitcom.
(13:37):
Because that's not how itworked.
There were consequences to thoseactions.
And sometimes we got to livewith consequences to our
actions, and that's what welearned in David's story.
And then the uh the other storythat I told, the story about
John Mark, I love that storybecause we see eventually those
consequences do, they do getkind of put on a shelf or put
(14:01):
behind them and they go away,and John Mark is restored to his
position on a ministry team, andthe Lord really uses that.
He really uses it.
And ends up using John Mark in apowerful way because Paul says
of him, John Mark is useful tome for ministry.
And I love that.
I love that he went from beingkicked off the team, not kicked
(14:24):
off the team, he quit the teamand then wasn't allowed back on
the team.
But then eventually he wasrestored back, not just to
fellowship with Paul and therest of the team, but he was
restored back to ministryresponsibility.
He was given responsibility,which is really cool.
I love that story.
So in that story, you get to seeit, you know, all come full
(14:45):
circle.
So the the principle, the pointthat I was making was that in
our lives sometimes we have tolive with the consequences of
our actions even after God hasgiven us forgiveness.
And that can be very scary.
I don't want to have I don'twant to live like with that.
I want to be set free from thoseconsequences.
I want to be released from that.
(15:09):
But sometimes that's just howit's gonna go.
And what I need to know is thatthe Lord will give me what I
need to endure difficulties ofputting my life back together
after a broken relationship, oryou know, finding out that
someone I care about or that Ilove deeply has betrayed me, or
(15:32):
um or that I've betrayed someoneor their trust, that the Lord
will help me and He'll helpthem.
And what we have to do is walkin humility and grace, extend
that grace to the Lord, extendit to others, and remember that
grace has a backbone.
I can extend forgiveness tosomeone else, but that doesn't
(15:53):
mean that I'm just gonna letthem come back into my life in
the same manner in which theyonce lived.
I mentioned the I've mentionedhere the story from last March
about a guy in ministry thatreally did a lot of damage.
And to this day, he's notwelcome here because he came
(16:14):
here and betrayed our trust anddid a lot of damage.
I hope and pray that that man istruly repentant and he's walking
with the Lord, but he's notgoing to be allowed to come back
to Snowbird because he came hereand he was predatory and he did
things that caused a lot ofdamage and pain in people's
lives.
And so the consequences to hisactions affect a lot of people.
(16:36):
They affect his own family, theyaffect I mean, he he was he he
had an opportunity to be reallyeffective in ministry and he and
he took advantage of that in ain a bad way, and so the result
is that he can't come back.
So anyway, I wanted to justshare a little bit of clarifying
thoughts.
And I don't know that thesethoughts are any clearer than
(16:57):
the first episode, but maybeit's not as loud.
For some people, I don't thinkit mattered.
They're good listening throughthat.
But for some people, it mighthave been distracting that
background noise.
So I just want to give someclarifying thoughts.
Uh let me know what you think,or if you got questions, if that
if that doesn't tidy things up,please let me know.
But just remember to extendgrace to others and to seek
(17:18):
reconciliation, that's ourthat's our goal.
We are ministers ofreconciliation, but sometimes
actions have lingeringconsequences, and what I've got
to do is make sure my heart isright before the Lord.
Let me close with this thought.
My heart and attitude towardsthat young man in the story was
not bad.
I forgave him.
I was truly, I moved on, I movedpast it.
(17:42):
But I had to, with convictionand like like make some
decisions that wereuncomfortable for a lot of
people.
I forgave him, and in my mind,my heart was settled, my mind
was settled before the Lord.
He just couldn't, he justcouldn't be here on this
property and and send thatmessage to the ladies that we're
(18:03):
responsible for, here the youngladies, my own children as well
as some other gals, you know,staff girls, and because we had
spread that story, we wantedeverybody to be alert.
So everybody was kind of in aheightened sense of alert
awareness.
And so um I stand by thatdecision, sought counsel on it
too.
Had I remember uh Rob was veryinvolved in that and several
(18:24):
other guys, um, and we made thatdecision and and we stand by it,
and and I can honestly say Iforgive that young man.
I want the best for him, and Ithink he's gone on and and is
doing well in in his adulthood,um, to my knowledge.
And I'm grateful for that pastorthat that that worked through
that with us, and he continuedto minister to that family, to
my knowledge.
(18:44):
And um so it just takes all ofus being faithful, and sometimes
uncomfortable situations uharise, and we just got to work
through them and do the best wecan.
Keep your mind set on Christ andkeep your, you know, keep stay
in the word, keep your yourfocus, daily renewal of your
mind through the word of God andthe washing of of his word over
(19:06):
our mind and live withconviction and everything will
be fine.
Everything will work out in yourlife for God's glory and for
your good.
Um, yeah, bonus episode.
Might not have needed it, mighthave been just fine the way we
were, but I felt like sharingthose thoughts and uh excited
again for the next coupleepisodes we've got coming up.
We got some the next fewepisodes, we got some incredible
(19:27):
interviews coming up, and I'mreally excited for y'all to hear
them.
We just, JB and I just sat downwith Emily Foreman and her
husband Lewis.
Those are not their actualnames, those are pseudonyms to
protect identities because umthey are they are in some pretty
intense ministry um in a part ofthe world where uh there's some
(19:50):
radical jihad, you know, someradicalized uh Islamic uh I
guess terrorists would be theword that operate there.
And so Emily's first husband,Stephen, was murdered.
He was martyred, he was killedfor his faith, gunned down in
the street.
And we tell her story, we listento it, and we we talk to them.
(20:11):
JB and I talk to them.
Uh it takes a couple episodes towork through their story and
what now and their uh as she'sremarried to Lewis, what they're
doing to continue the work thatStephen died for.
It's just awesome.
It's it's one of the mostpowerful stories I've ever
heard.
I've known them for some time,very close personal friends to
(20:31):
our family.
And then also, I think Imentioned we have a a really
cool uh No Sanity story from aformer staff member that um is
coming up too.
So several stories coming up,and I'm excited for y'all to
hear those.
And uh hope you have an awesomeweek this week.
Uh awesome rest of your week,and we'll see you soon, Lord
willing.
Maybe you get up to Snowbird.
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