Martyred, But Not Silenced Pt. 2 | The Price of Making Jesus Known in a Muslim Country

After a missionary was martyred in Africa, his family chose forgiveness over revenge and everything changed. Their story of grief, grace, and obedience sparked transformation in places no one expected.

In this part two episode, Lewis and Emily share how God brought their two families together through loss and calling, eventually leading them back to the very place of violence and tragedy with a message of hope. You’ll hear powerful accounts of facing the man who killed Emily’s husband and how she chose forgiveness instead of bitterness.

Check out Emily's book:

We Died Before We Came Here

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of
Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters,a podcast about the Bible,
culture, and stories from aroundthe globe.

SPEAKER_02 (00:21):
Okay, so let's just pick pick right up.
Um, so y'all, within 72 hours,you and the kids came home.
And I'd like to I'd like to justtalk about in this in this
episode, let's just talk aboutwhat God is doing now, but let's
get to that point.
Let's get to the point that youtwo, I'd I'd like to for our

(00:44):
folks to hear a little bit ofyour backstory, Lewis's
backstory.
Um, because you came out of adifferent kind of very traumatic
experience, losing your firstwife.
There's so much redemption iny'all's story on so many levels
and so many layers.
It's one of the most powerful,beautiful testimonies I've ever

(01:04):
seen.
So why don't we start there?
Uh let's let's hit pause, youguys coming home, which is
around when we met y'all, notlong after that, when we met
Emily's family, the four kids,Heidi, Joshua, Ellie, and Piper.
Had to do the we've changedeveryone's names, and I had to

(01:26):
really think through thatbecause I didn't write it down.
Um, but you had you y'all hadyou had worked in the same
organization, correct?
But in a different, completelydifferent area, different
category.
And uh, and you had lost yourwife sometime before that.
Yeah.
So why don't you give a littlebit of your background?

SPEAKER_05 (01:47):
Uh yeah, well, I um so we are from the same sending
organization.
Okay.
So I was aware of the work thatuh Emily and Steven were doing.
Uh actually, we were also notonly from the same sending
organization, but the samedepartment that oversees certain
frontier type works.
So I was living in a northerncity, big city in North America.

(02:12):
Um, and but I fell under thatdepartment because our work was
frontier focused.
We were working with immigrants.
We were living in a highlyconcentrated immigrant
neighborhood of a northern cityand working primarily with
Muslims, Hindus, and a lot ofother types of unreached people
groups in this area.
And so I fell under that samedepartment.

(02:34):
So I heard a lot of what Emilyand Steven were doing because I
would get reports and I wasaware of them.
Um I'd I'd only met them maybeonce or twice at a conference.
I think when they were onfurlough one time, we we met up
at one particular conference.

SPEAKER_02 (02:49):
And your wife was living at that point.

SPEAKER_05 (02:51):
And no, okay.
I think maybe so my my my wifedied in uh uh about six years
before Stephen was killed.

SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (03:02):
Um, and so I had been working in this northern
city.
Uh, I lived there for 20 years.
Uh, and about uh 12 years intothat is when my wife died.
And we had two small kids.
I had a six-year-old boy, anine-year-old girl when my wife
died of cancer.
Uh, after 12 years of us as afamily working um in
cross-cultural ministry withimmigrants.

(03:24):
And um, so I had connected, I Iknew what they were doing, and
kind of how kind of how the Lordbrought me into this story
actually was I got a phone callthe day that Stephen was killed.
And uh we had a mutual friendthat was from this department
that we were both working under.
Um, and he called me that day,some point later in the day, and

(03:46):
uh and he says, you know, hesays, man, you know, Lewis,
you're not gonna believe this,but uh Stephen was shot.
Stephen was killed.
And I I remember, you know,asking a few questions about
their kids.
I knew they had four kids, and Ihung up the phone, and it was
one of those moments where justyou just kind of feel like

(04:08):
there's rare moments where itjust feels like the Holy Spirit
just heavily comes over youemotionally.
And of course, by this time, myI've been a single dad for six
years.
My wife died, and the Lord hadto do a lot of applying grace
for my family to continue in ourcalling, because a big thing was
how do we do that?
How do we finish our calling inministry now uh through this

(04:32):
loss?
And I had to raise my two kidsin that.
And the Lord gave us grace andwe figured out how to do it, and
I thought, okay, we're gonna dothis.
And my kids, they did everythingwith me.
We were traveling around theworld, we were taking all
immigrant teams uh from our cityback around the world on
mission, and and my kids dideverything with me.

(04:53):
And so I, you know, I alreadyfelt an uh a sensitivity to
other people that go throughloss, especially in their
missional callings, because itit really wreaks havoc to your
calling as in mission when uhsome kind of tragedy like that
happens.
And so I hang up the phone and Ijust start to pray for the

(05:13):
family.
I start praying for Emily, Istart praying for each of the
four kids, and the Holy Spiritjust came on me like it's only
happened to me maybe two orthree times in my entire life.
And I don't even know how long Iwas praying.
I I got up from the floor and Ithink it had already been a
couple hours.
I was I was under so muchemotion.
I was laying prostrate on thefloor, weeping and crying for

(05:34):
this family, and just saying,God, no, not another family.
Well, this family was workingfor you in a place that nobody
wants to go to.
A hard place.
Nobody's going there.
And why does this have tohappen?
And I was just praying, I said,God help them, help them finish,
help them finish their calling,help those kids get their
inheritance.
I mean, I was praying for eachof the kids.
I knew their ages generally, andI was praying for them that they

(05:57):
wouldn't lose their inheritance,that that God would do something
with this.
And I mean, I was sweating andweeping.
It was that kind of a prayertime.
And I get up from that after acouple hours and just saying,
Lord, whatever it takes, youfinish this family's story and
what that sacrifice was in thatcountry, may it bear fruit.

(06:17):
And I, you know, the funnything, we talk about it now, but
I had no idea at that momentthat God was going to allow me
to become a part of the answerto that prayer.
You know, I mean, I was justpraying for this family.
And by that point, I've been asingle dad for, you know, six
years, and I had no intention ofever getting remarried.
I mean, we just figured out howto do it now as a family.

(06:38):
We're gonna finish our calling.
And I was not looking to beremarried or searching for that
at all.
And but I now looking back, Iknow that in that prayer time,
God had already decided that I'mgonna be a part of answering
that prayer.
And I think it may have beenpart of the reason why it was
such an emotional prayer.
And really, Emily, Emily and Imet up uh at some conferences

(07:02):
after that, over the next coupleyears following that uh time.
Uh, we our paths crossed.
Uh, she actually came throughour city at one point and
because she was visiting somepeople, and I said, Hey, come
over to our let our team justpray with you and minister to
you.
And so she came, and this wasjust several months after
Stephen was killed.
And I could tell her and thekids are still very shell

(07:24):
shell-shocked.
And but we prayed for them andjust tried to love on them.
And then we would we would crosspaths at conferences and and you
know, again, never thought muchabout it, but always praying for
this family.
God help them, help them findtheir way of finishing.
And uh, about maybe uh a yearand a half or so later, we were
at a particular conference and Iwas there sharing a story

(07:47):
because by this time we're partof our work was housing Muslims.
We had an apartment, three-storyapartment building in in the
inner city, and we were housingMuslims.
And at any given time with ourstaff community, because we all
lived in the building, we wouldhave seven, eight, or nine
Muslims living with us in ourapartments.
And uh, and so I was sharingstories at this particular

(08:09):
conference, which was afrontier-focused conference
about these different peoplethat were housing and how God
was using that and how Muslimswere coming to the Lord by
living with us, just sharinglife with us and with our staff
who were believers and livingmissionarily.
So I was sharing this one storyabout uh an immigrant kid that
was actually from the countrythat Emily and Stephen were

(08:29):
working in.

SPEAKER_03 (08:29):
Wow.

SPEAKER_05 (08:29):
And he would, and we picked him up off the street in
our city, I convinced him tocome and live with us.
And he was high identity Muslim,very scared.
And I was sharing the process ofhis story of how he came to live
with us and how God workedthrough that and how he came to
the Lord.
So dramatically came to the Lordthat he gave up his visa, he was

(08:51):
on a refugee visa to go backhome because he couldn't stand
that all of his family had neverheard the gospel.
And and over the phone, whenhe's trying to tell them, they
thought he was crazy.
So he's like, I'm gonna go back.
And he, and so I'm sharing thisstory, and Emily is listening to
this, and obviously afterwardsshe tries to corner me.
It's like, oh my gosh, I we'rehere.

(09:11):
We're stuck here part of theyear, we're going back and
forth, but we're stuck trying tofigure out how to reach Muslims
here.
I need, I got questions.
So that started this friendship.
And we it was pretty much anemail friendship because we're a
thousand miles away from eachother.
And over time, this friendshipgot really deep as we're talking
about raising our kids and ourcallings through loss.

(09:33):
And and then over time, there anew conversation was coming,
like, you know, hey, hey, Lewis,what what about, you know, what
do you think?
Would you, and it really wasthis.
It was God saying, if I wantedto bring your two families
together, would you let me?
And it was the scariestconversation I'd ever had in my
life.

SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
So that is awesome.

SPEAKER_05 (09:51):
Yeah.
So we, you know, I I bucked thatwith the Lord for a while,
struggled through it.
God was doing the same thingwith her.
I didn't know it.
And over time, the end of thatobviously was God pulled us into
this new idea of bridging ourtwo families and really doing
doing both ministries.
We're working in North Africa,but also working with immigrants

(10:15):
stateside when we're stateside,and we've been doing that for
years now.
We've actually, you know, uhbeen married now for 13 years.
And uh, and our all of our kids,we now have eight kids because
we've also adopted some twingirls.
And they they go back and forthto North Africa with us, and
they also work with us withimmigrant communities here

(10:36):
stateside.
And uh so yeah, so it's a joynow because now we see all the
fruit of what God's done throughStephen's death and through the
sacrifice of this family willingto go back and show love and
forgiveness.
And it's phenomenal what theLord's doing with that.
And I get to be a part of it,which I never would have thought
would have happened.
Who would have thought?
You know, and I was just prayingfor this family that God was

(10:59):
gonna say, I'm gonna give youthe gift of actually being a
part of that story.
I I would have never, never inmy wildest dreams had imagined
that.
But it's a joy now to see whatGod's doing with He's doing
phenomenal things uh, you know,through that sacrifice.

SPEAKER_04 (11:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (11:14):
That's amazing.
It's like, but seriously though,just for people listening, uh
you know, they might be drivingdown the road or they're on a
jog and they got their airpods.
Just hit pause and reflect onthat.
I mean, that's crazy.
You know, and I joked, I waslike, hey dummy, I'm putting
this in front of you.

(11:35):
But sometimes we need God tojust like spell it out for us,
like, hey man, look, just pausefor a minute.
Look what I'm doing.
And this is one of those storiesthat's just it's it's so
redeeming, you know.
There's because people no doubtpeople were asking when Steven

(11:59):
died, and you mentioned it youalluded to this, I think it was
in the last episode, about whathow's good gonna come out of
this?
I mean, 72 hours later you're ona plane coming home.
But a whole lot of good has likea whole lot has come in in terms
of redemption that I really wantto get into with some people

(12:20):
there, even associated with orconnected to both in the
government but to the killers,like associations to the
killers.
But then I mean, on anothercontinent, on a different
timeline, because this is noneof this was outside of the scope
of God's sovereign plan.
You know, it's just amazing tome.

(12:42):
It's just people need to justpause and go, okay, whatever
because whatever you're in themiddle of right now, the Lord's
doing something, you know.
It's just it's it's it'samazing, and it's just so
incredible that God's plans andhis ways, it's not just that
they're bigger than our ways,it's that they're so complex and

(13:05):
layered, and it's just I justthank you for sharing that.
Because I've never gotten tohear so it's the first time I've
ever heard from yourperspective.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's just I mean, I'm like,my cup is so full right now, you
know, because we were prayingtoo.
And we were praying for peoplewe didn't know.
You know, we had literallyhundred people gathered and

(13:26):
prayed in the staff meeting overthis family.
This is awesome.
It's so cool.
So yeah, but yes, so so a lothas happened and is ongoing, and
I want to get to where y'all areheaded.
But let's go back to becausethere's I know a little bit of
the story, some from theepilogue in the book, but then

(13:47):
also from just knowing y'all andthings that you've shared with
Little and I.
Because Emily and Little arevery close, and one of those
relationships you don't see eachother often, but it's a really
natural closeness.
And so what are some things thatyou you can really literally see
now in the years since Stephen'sdeath?
You can go, man, the Lord hasreally worked there.

SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Yeah.
You know, I think I think it wasJohn Piper that said something
like At any given moment, God isdoing about 10,000 things in
your life or a hundred thousandthings, and you might see three.
Right.
And so unfortunately, we tend towant to build everything,
including our obedience on thethree things we see.

(14:30):
Sure.
Um, and I'm reminded of thescripture, um, you know, a man's
heart plans his way, but theLord orders his steps.
And yeah, looking back, both ofus, we still to this day, 13
years later, we look back andthink, what?
Wow.

(14:50):
And being able to see is likethe diamond, right?
With so many facets.
It's like there's so many thingsthe Lord was up to.
And we had no idea, and we don'thave the the intelligence or the
creativity to be able to writethe story God has for us, and
not just us, but any of us,right?
When we're obedient.

(15:11):
Um But yeah, so we um when theLord brought us together, which
was also a series of miraculousevents, um, or I would say
series of fortunate events andhow he spoke to not only us but
our children and confirmed it.
And um I I would say at thatpoint though, my heart was still

(15:36):
drawn to North Africa.
Like I just and just like KieranAndrews are saying, there's not
enough there you didn't say notenough, I say not enough
Muslims, you know.
But that's how it was where wewere when we lived in a bigger
city.
Um I would be looking for them,you know.
And to be honest, I've actuallyfollowed a couple of them home.

(15:59):
Like I just I wanted to know,like, oh, you're here, like I'm
so excited.
And but I'm surrounded by peoplewho are like, oh no, they're
here, you know.
And so it was just really neathow the Lord put our stories
together because it did fit,like it just fits.
And um we went into thisadventure not really knowing

(16:22):
exactly what the Lord would door how things would unfold and
are still unfolding as we speak.
We just knew that it'sundeniably the hand of the Lord
on our lives and on our kids andon our ministries.
So we've I think we've bothlearned by now you just kind of

(16:45):
buckle up and go with it.
You know, just go for the ride,whatever the Lord's doing.
And so it was really interestingtaking Lewis back with me to
North Africa when he visited forthe first time.
Actually, when I had announcedbefore that I was getting
remarried, you know, Steven wasso, so dearly loved that I was

(17:07):
worried, you know, that it mightbe awkward or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (17:10):
How many trips had you and the you and or you and
the kids taken back in beforeyou took Lewis and went?

SPEAKER_01 (17:17):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (17:18):
Several.

SPEAKER_01 (17:20):
At least six or seven.

SPEAKER_02 (17:21):
So you've been back a lot interacting with those
folks as a single widowed woman.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
Yeah.
And so when I announced that Iwas getting remarried, it was
like an an unbelievablecelebration.
I had not considered the factthat they were so worried about
us.
And in that culture, you don'tjust live your life out as a
widow.
You need a provider, you need aprotector, you need like family

(17:50):
means everything.
So they were so thrilled, andthey immediately, um, for good
reason, fell in love with Lewisand and his two kids as well.
They've been back with us.
Um, and so we knew at that pointthat our two stories were
basically the bookends of themission, you know, reaching the

(18:12):
unreached here and going to thefrontiers to reach the
unreached.
Um and the Lord has used that inso many ways over the years.
But every time we go back toNorth Africa, just the the
things we're seeing, the thingsthat we're witnessing that the
Lord continues to do, um, itmakes me so grateful that I

(18:38):
didn't throw in the towel.
Not that it was all pinned, youknow, contingent on my
willingness to go back andforgive, but it it's incredible
to see how the Lord has usedthat.
And forgiveness is such aforeign concept for Muslims.
Oh, yeah.
You know, they have ninety-ninebeautiful names of God, and one

(18:58):
of those is merciful, but noneof them are like God is love or
God is forgiving.
Though they do believeforgiveness is possible, it's
more like a pardon.
Um, and it's but it's comingfrom a God that's really are
arbitrary.
Like you can follow all the fivepillars of faith, do the best

(19:19):
you can, die in jihad even.
Well, actually, that's the onesurety that you'll be able to go
to paradise.
Otherwise, no matter how good ofa Muslim you are, you get there
and it's still up to God whetherhe wants to let you in or not.
You know, he weighs your goodway works and your bad works,
but it's still dependent on howhe what mood he's in that day.

(19:42):
And so for us to extendforgiveness, my family to f
extend forgiveness, was really apowerful catapult forward in the
next things that the Lord wasdoing in people's lives.
And in fact, I was at one of myduring one of my first visits

(20:05):
back, I was staying with somefriends because obviously I
didn't have a house thereanymore, but I was staying with
friends, and the director ofhuman rights caught when that I
was there and he wanted to comesee me.
And he's sitting across from mein this home, and he he just
goes right into it.
He says, I don't understand whyon earth your family would want

(20:25):
to forgive these guys.
Even we in Islam, we thinkthey're dogs for what they did.
How can you forgive?
And that took me off guard.
I wasn't expecting it, but itgave such an opportunity to
explain.
Well, actually, let me tell you,we follow Jesus, and you know,
Jesus teaches us to love ourenemies, and um he was not at

(20:50):
all satisfied with thatconversation.
He left that house feeling likeso confused.
I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 (20:56):
But at this point, were the the three guys
incarcerated?

SPEAKER_01 (21:00):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, they were all arrestedwithin three weeks of the the um
the event.

SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
And what went into that?
How did they know who had doneit?
Did they brag about it in thatworld of jihad and pretty bold?

SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
But I think not them as individuals, but broadly
speaking, Al Qaeda took proudresponsibility for it.
Um, but thankfully the country'sum intelligence, at like the the
government works very closelywith our central intelligence
and our military.

(21:40):
So they had, you know, the bigguns.
I mean, literally the FBI agentfor our region our region was at
in the place where we wereevacuated before the day was
over.
Wow.
And he came from a neighboringcountry.
So they were on top of it,right?
So of course, I think they had alot of intelligence, a lot of

(22:01):
help from not just our military,our our government, but other
governments to France, otherplaces.
But yeah, they narrowed themdown to these three men, and the
one who had actually shot thegun had strapped himself with
explosives and was about to uhcommit a suicide bombing right

(22:23):
there in front of our trainingcenter.
And they had been following him,and they they caught him before
he did that, shot him a coupletimes, and left him lying on the
ground for a while as atestimony of how they will not
tolerate terrorism.
Um again, that's not what you'rethinking as an American, right?

(22:46):
Like they would do something.

SPEAKER_03 (22:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
Oh.

SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
He's suffering.
He's lying on the groundbleeding out.
Okay.
Um, he did survive.
And I had heard well, okay, soI'll just move forward and say
they all three were judged andsentenced within, you know, a
few months, and the one thatshot the gun got the death
penalty, even though in thatcountry they haven't executed in

(23:13):
many years.
Basically meant he would spendhis life in prison.
The second guy who was there atthe time got 12 years, and then
the third guy who was a lookoutguy got three years.
And so they shipped the one, uhat least the one that shot the
gun, I think, was uh located ina prison far in the interior um

(23:37):
where they put the mostdangerous criminals.
Um and I had heard over theyears that he was his injuries
never really healed, and we wereeven wondering if he may die or
whatever, but he survived.
Um and hailed a hero, by theway, by other terrorists.
Oh yeah.

(23:57):
But um so yeah, so we're goingin and out of the country, we
realize that these guys may bein the very prison that we're
working in.
Wow.
Right?
And so um but they wouldn'tallow access to the second guy.

(24:19):
The second guy was there, thethe the killer was in the far in
the interior.
And so my son actually, in oneof his times there, he would go
into the prisons with our ourworkers and you know, do the
project work with them, and heactually asked the prison warden
if he could have a an audiencewith the guy.

(24:41):
And because they don'tunderstand forgiveness and don't
can't conceive of him actuallyum offering forgiveness, they
just thought there's only onereason this guy, the six foot
three dude, broad shouldered,wants to go in and see this guy
face to face.
And so they just kind of madeexcuses why it wouldn't be

(25:04):
possible.
And so um so he he left it atthat, but wrote a letter and
said, please have thistranslated clearly for him.
And so that all of that wasagreed upon.
Um and he addressed the letterto all three of the guys, even
though the one that had servedthree years was already

(25:25):
released.
Um so one of the one of thethings we do when we go back all
these years is take a medicalteam.
Um in the first year that wetook a medical team, I wasn't
sure what I was in for.
I just knew that there are, Imean, it's a very poor country,
very much in need of healthcare, but the prison systems

(25:48):
were like more like aconcentration camp, and they
were just terribly, tragicallymedically underserved.
And so we decided as a teamthere, okay, let's just see what
we can do and get some somepeople to join and just come and
provide consultations and umhealth care for these people in
the prisons.

SPEAKER_05 (26:08):
And this this first medical team was probably two
years after Emily and I gotmarried.
So we were we were goingtogether.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
And it was just a few months after Joshua was
there and tried to see one ofthe men who was involved in his
dad's murder.

SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
And by that point, Joshua was grown.

SPEAKER_01 (26:26):
Yeah, he was grown.
He was maybe 19, 18.
I can't remember exactly.
Um there's a whole other aspectto that story, too, how the Lord
brought him to that point.

SPEAKER_04 (26:37):
Because I was about to say grown.
That's still like extremelymature 19 to be able to do that.
Yes, or even the courage to goback.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (26:48):
Well, and probably out of all four of the kids, I
think he probably struggled themost with the idea of forgiving
these men who killed his father.
It was a deep struggle for himfor a number of years.

SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
Yeah.
So he was 13, you know, and he'sthe only boy.
And I remember when I, you know,took each of the kids aside to
tell them about what actuallyhappened.
Um, he was already in a room byhimself, and I go in and talk to
him.
You know, all my girls, exceptfor except for the youngest.

(27:21):
Piper.
Piper was bouncing off thewalls, you know, like little
seven-year-olds, they don't knowhow to process this, right?
Right.
Um, but I had a conversationwith Ellie and I had a
conversation with Heidi, and wejust we prayed, you know, we
cried and we prayed to well,they cried.
I hadn't even cried at thatpoint.
I was still just trying to wrapmy head around it.

(27:42):
But just comforting them andpraying with them and and just
seeing the grace of the Lord.
Like I saw no animosity at all.
Just so much grace.
Pain, obviously, but noanimosity.
But when I got to Joshua, he wassitting on the edge of the bed
just not crying either, but justlooking like he was like shaking

(28:05):
because his fists were so tight.
And just I can't imagine himtrying to process this either.
He already knew by then.
He just knew something hadhappened.
And I told him, you know,explain the situation, and he
just wouldn't move, he wouldjust sit there, you know.
And so I didn't know what elseto do except for pray over him.

(28:28):
And as I was praying, it was adifferent kind of thing.
I almost felt like I was sort oftransferred to the heavenlies
where I felt I was in seriousspiritual warfare.
And so I prayed specificallythat God would protect him from

(28:50):
the enemy and from bitternessand from so much that would
naturally come about, you know,from such a tragedy.
So I left him there.
He just wanted to be alone.
But a little while later, hecomes out of the room so proud.
Just saying, my dad was a hero.
You know, still not crying, justkind of like trying to keep his

(29:12):
chin up and a tough face.
And but coming back to the USwas a challenge.
Obviously, for all of my kids,they were re-entering a culture
they didn't know a whole lotabout.
I mean, they loved coming backon furloughs and hanging out
with their friends and doing funstuff, but like this was a

(29:33):
different experience.
The the reintegration, you know,of coming back and trying to
find a place to fit, which isanother reason why it's such a
blessing that we had Snowbird.
I mean, to just embrace them.
And I I knew he was struggling,but he was a good kid.

(29:54):
You know, he wasn't going offdoing really stupid stuff.
Well, that's debatable.
He was a wild child.
But I really didn't have a wholelot of problems with like the
misbehavior necessarily.
But like the attitude, and Icould just tell there was some
his heart just wasn't real softanymore.

(30:17):
Um but then fast forward a fewyears, right before he was there
and asked to see the guy, theLord had done something
incredible in his heart.
And we had this revivalist thathad come through and was
preaching and and he had us likedraw an imaginary circle around
us and ask God to do a revivaljust to do something miraculous

(30:38):
in us in that space.
And I didn't know what happened.
He told me later what hadhappened, but he became
emotional after.
And he just said all he couldpray was, God, why I don't know
what's wrong.
Like my heart is hard.
And I you're gonna have to dosomething.

(31:02):
And he immediately had thisvision of himself but in Jesus'
place on the cross, looking downat the the men who were killing
him and saying, Father, forgivethem.
They don't know what they'redoing.
That's when he broke, you know.
I think that's the moment theLord gave him a heart of flesh
again.
And he said at that moment he nolonger thought about these guys

(31:26):
with hatred, he thought aboutthem with a lot of pity.
Like he felt sorry for them.
And so this is what led up tohim wanting to see the guys, but
they wouldn't let him, and thena few months later we're there
with our medical team, whichdon't know why this is.
Where are all the men in theworld?
But the only ones that respondedto our medical uh uh mission

(31:49):
were women.

SPEAKER_02 (31:50):
All right, I've got to insert here.
If you're a dude, you'relistening to this, you're a
paramedic, EMT, first responder,PA, RN or doctor, you need to
use what God's given you.
There are opportunities.
You don't have to go spend therest of your life on a mission
field, but you need to use, youneed to not take your family to

(32:11):
Orlando every year and go toDisney.
You need to.
We did an episode on this whereI talked about our family
vacations were spent all mykids' growing up years going and
serving uh in another country.
You need to think about it,because what Emily's saying is
something we hit hard here withour young men.

(32:33):
There's a deficit.
Women are willing to go, men arenot.
Young men, especially.
But we're we're we're working toreverse that.
Anyway, all right, there's myrant.

SPEAKER_01 (32:43):
Well, I ha well I have to say here the the dynamic
is not the same.
You have so many amazing youngmen.
It's refreshing.
Every time we come here,everywhere we go, even in our
own missions organization, likethere's nobody like snowbirds.
You're doing a wonderful job.

SPEAKER_02 (33:01):
We're hard on them.

SPEAKER_01 (33:01):
We're hard on these dudes.
So, yeah, so I have this team ofall women, most of whom are
older than me, like grandmothertypes.
Um except for the one medicaldoctor we had, she is Korean
American, and she did like shewas a medical doctor, but she

(33:23):
also did traditional medicine,so she would do acupuncture.
She offered to do it, and I'mthinking, there's no way.
Like, that's such a foreignconcept in a country like this.
And so I was like, okay, bringit on, we'll see what happens.
And so here we are, these fivelovely women going into the
men's prison where there's overa thousand men, and many of

(33:48):
which are harmless, kind peoplewho were at the wrong place at
the wrong time or falselyaccused.
Obviously, some criminals too.
But these women were amazing.
They just went in.
I'm sure they were nervous goingin, but they just fell in love
with these prisoners.
And I think it really brought usto the true the depth of what we

(34:14):
were doing.
It was more than just bringingphysical care.
It made us the sheep on the dayof judgment.
He was sick and we came to him.
He was in prison and we visitedhim.
And it's like we truly felt insense like we were not just
ministering to these and poorpoor and needy and just lost

(34:38):
men.
We were ministering to JesusHimself, and it was so powerful.
So we had two full exhaustingdays at that prison, and then
our colleague, one of ourcolleagues who was helping
arrange and coordinate each ofthe prisons, um, also a
believer, um, but he came up tome and was like, Well, you know,

(34:59):
we're going to the centralprison tomorrow.
And as you know, that's wherethey hold the terrorists.
And um by then they had actuallymoved the boys from the juvenile
prison over there too, becausejuvenile prisons sort of fell
apart.
And so, why in the world?
They decided to move themshoulder to shoulder with a
bunch of terrorists crazy on me.

(35:21):
That is wild.
So, but so it's a prisonoriginally for terrorists and
political prisoners, and thenalso the boys were there, and so
my colleague came out, he'slike, Hey, so tomorrow, you
know, we're going to the centralprison, but I am gonna talk to
the commander and let him knowthat we're only gonna see the
boys.
And I thought, I just had tocheck in my spirit about that.

(35:44):
Uh, and it didn't seem right,but I left it with him.
He seemed so sure of himself, soI'm like, Well, that's fine,
whatever.
We get there the next morning,and he comes to me very um shyly
and says, Well, I'm sorry.
I talked to the commander, hesaid you're a humanitarian
organization, and everyone hereare humans, so you have to see

(36:05):
them all.
And so I was like, Well, thatmakes perfect sense to me.
That's fine.
Just let them know we're gonnasee all the boys, all the boys,
whether they're sick or not.
Um, because our intention wasreally to love on these kids.
And so we did.
There were about 40, 45 boys atthe time.

SPEAKER_04 (36:23):
Why would most of the boys be in prison?
Same type of thing, like wrongplace, wrong time.
Mm-hmm.
Petty crimes.

SPEAKER_01 (36:29):
They got in a fight in the street, they sold, you
know, they stole a cell phone, adumb phone.
You know, like these are thingsthat they were being but the
problem with their justicesystem is they would they would
be incarcerated, but theywouldn't have their day of
judgment or be able to see thejudge for sometimes two or three
years.
Wow.
And these kids are now away fromtheir mothers, away from their

(36:51):
families.
And so when these women wereministering to these boys, it
was just so precious to see.
They were many of them were justweeping.
And they were good mamas too.
They're like, your bloodpressure is too high, and it's
because you were too angry, andyou know, and they would like
preach to them.
It was so cute.
And um anyway, so yeah, we umsaw all the boys, and then they

(37:15):
bring in the two or threepolitical prisoners that were
there, and I really I mean, thisis an in-depth story.
I can sort of condense it if youwant me to, and just give the
overview.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (37:30):
I'm good with whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (37:32):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (37:33):
It's not like it's not like I'm bored.

SPEAKER_01 (37:37):
So I am uh translating for one of the
ladies that is doing theconsultations, and Dr.
Kim is overdoing heracupuncture.
By then, she's famous.
Everybody wanted the needles.
And it was so funny how manypeople were coming out of the
woodwork saying, I have so muchache and pain, you know, or
whatever, because I just wantedto experience the needles.

(38:00):
Um, and so I was translating fora political prisoner, really
nice looking guy, and he keptlooking at me and smiling.
And, you know, I mean, in thatculture, prolonged eye contact
or touching women is so taboo.
Like, that's just not what youdo.

(38:21):
But he kept staring at me andsmiling, and he's like, You
don't remember me, do you?
And I'm like, You look familiar.
And I meant that sincerelybecause everybody does.
But he's like, I was in yourhome in 2003, and I was like,
Oh, okay, great, you know, andI'm just going along.
We had people in our home allthe time.
And Stephen would bring peoplehome that I didn't know.

(38:43):
I just stopped asking questionsand just provided the
hospitality.
And um, he just failed to tellme that this guy was actually
the the son of one of thepresidents that had been ousted.
So he was a threat because ofbeing the son of this president.
And so I I knew that thepresident, the former president,

(39:07):
was in the prison.
I knew that Stephen hadministered to him, gotten to
know him.

SPEAKER_02 (39:12):
Is this the coup that you wrote about in the
book?

SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
No, this was one before that.

SPEAKER_02 (39:16):
Okay.
All right.

SPEAKER_01 (39:18):
Yeah, so anyway, it was just really fun to
reconnect.
And um, but shortly after ourconversation started, everything
became quiet.
And they cleared out and broughtin more guards with their
AK-47s, and it just and theybrought in the first terrorist.

(39:39):
And it's this man comes in,looks really distinguished, and
actually kind of nice.
He's just scanning the room, youknow, has this big beard.

SPEAKER_05 (39:48):
Well, if you back up a minute, we were we were told
prior to this that morning, ourcolleague comes up to us and
says, Oh, I need to let you knowthey've moved the the man who
killed Stephen.
They moved him here.
We thought he was still in theinterior.
Oh.
And at a at a high maximum uhfacility, and they said, Well,
we just need they've come herefor an appeals case.

(40:10):
So he's here in the prison, youknow.
And uh, and and of course, youknow, um, this colleague is
like, but but it's okay, we'llmake sure that you know you
don't encounter the guy.
But of course, you know, Emilyand her kids have been praying
for an opportunity to have anaudience with this guy, and but
we didn't know what the Lordwould do with that.
So we were aware he was there,and I'm I'm working with uh

(40:34):
another nurse at a different uhtable in the same room, and
Emily's in another one, and weboth were aware that at any
moment this guy could come in,and we weren't quite sure what
he looked like at this point,and so but we just kind of left
it up.

SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
Let me clarify though, I I had heard that they
had were in the city and thatthey had just had their appeal
and they were appealing to havetheir sentences reduced.
Only his was upheld, and now hedoesn't even qualify for a
presidential pardon anymore, sohe's his chances are over.

SPEAKER_02 (41:07):
And this uh to be clear, this is the shooter.
The shooter.

SPEAKER_01 (41:10):
And then the second guy that had gotten 12 years,
instead of his being reduced,they increased it to 15.
Oh, and then they actually put awarrant out for the guy who had
only served three years to havehim reincarcerated and trying,
and they were appealing to getall of them to have life
sentences.
Okay, yeah.

(41:31):
So um anyway, I had asked ourcolleague that morning, you
know, like I I know that one ofthe guys is here, you know, is
the guy, the main guy here, andhe said, No, I don't think so.
No, I don't and I don't thinkyou'll see the other guy.
We'll make sure of that.
And I'm like, it's okay, youknow, if I do see the other guy,

(41:53):
that's not a problem.
But I didn't request to actuallyhave an audience with him or
anything.
So anyway, I am ignorant of thefact that this guy is there, but
he's the first one they bringin.
And so I see this the president,former president's son, looks at
the guy that walks in and thenhe looks at me as if he knows

(42:14):
something.
And he's just watching my face.
And so they bring him over toanother one of the ladies doing
consultations behind us, and Ioverhear the conversation, and
he's trying to explain, okay,yeah, I just have a lot of pain.
Um, I was wounded so many yearsago and just never really

(42:36):
healed.
And I'm having, he was like, Iwas shot in the leg and the hip,
and my heart sunk.
I'm like, this was the guy.
And the one he's talking todidn't have a clue.
And she's just like, Well, I'msorry, there's nothing we can
really do for you except, youknow, give you Tylenol or
ibuprofen, but you can try theneedles, you know, the

(42:56):
acupuncture if you want.
And so he leaves, and a fewminutes or almost immediately,
um, our colleague comes in andsays to me and to Lewis, you
know, the commander wants tohave a word with you.
And so this guy had already goneout, like he didn't stop by the
acupuncture at all.

SPEAKER_02 (43:17):
Did you ever like look over and see him?
You just heard this.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (43:21):
Well, I wasn't looking while I was, I saw him
come in.

SPEAKER_02 (43:23):
When he came in, but at that point you had didn't
know.

SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
I didn't know who he was.
I just knew he was a terrorist.
Was he aware?
He didn't know who I was either.
Okay.
Wow.

SPEAKER_05 (43:32):
But I was at another table, and when he comes in, I
looked up and I looked at Emily,and we both made eye contact,
and it was this feeling of Ithink this is the guy.
Like we both had that thatsense.
And the interesting thing upuntil this point, there were
there were a group of terroriststhat all came at the same time.
They brought all these extraguards in, and they were all
super hard.

(43:52):
Like they wouldn't talk to thenurses because they're females.

SPEAKER_01 (43:55):
They wouldn't let the nurses touch them.
They had to do everythingwithout eye contact and without
they were angry.

SPEAKER_05 (44:01):
I mean, they're sitting at the tables just
angry.
They don't want help.
And there was like we're and wewere already thinking, man,
Lord, you got to do somethinghere.
We can't, we can't reach theseguys, right?
And so there was this was theclimate in the room.
It was, you know, everybody washard and angry and resistant.
And then this guy comes in andwe make eye contact and think, I

(44:23):
think this is the dude.
But he doesn't want theacupuncture.
He looks around the room, hedecides to leave.
And then it was just a fewminutes later, while all the
room is still filled withseveral different terrorists at
different triage tables, butnone of them want to make eye
contact and they're all angry.

SPEAKER_01 (44:38):
They they seem really irritated that we only
had women.
Yeah, they were so angry.
Which felt really good.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 (44:46):
But then, but then the colleague comes in and says
to Emily and I, hey, the wardenwants to see you guys.
So this is the climate of theroom when we when we step out.

SPEAKER_01 (44:54):
Yeah.
So they take us out.
Uh I at first I'm like, uh-oh,did we do something wrong?
Are we in trouble?
Yeah.
Um, and so they take us aroundout into the hallway around to
this small office where thecommander's office was.
And our colleague brings us in,introduces us, and says, um, the
call, the the commander says,Well, first of all, I want you

(45:19):
to know that we reallyappreciate what you're doing,
and we know that you guys arenot here to harm anyone, but you
probably know that the man whokilled your chief is here, and
he would like to have theneedles done, but we need to
just confirm that you're notgonna do anything to harm him,
that you're not taking any kindof revenge or anything.

(45:42):
And wow.
I looked at him, I said, Well,sir, you're the one that helped
remind us that everyone here arehumans, and we absolutely agree.
Of course, we are not gonna doanything to harm anybody.
That's not what we're here for.

SPEAKER_05 (45:56):
But this warden doesn't know who it is.
He doesn't know who I am.
He just knows that we're we're apart of the organization.
No, he doesn't know that she'sthe widow.

SPEAKER_01 (46:06):
He just because he's a he's new.
I mean, I'd never I didn't spenda lot of time in that prison
anyway.
Right.
But anyway, so our colleagueslike, wait, you don't know who
she is?
This is the widow of our chiefthat was killed by that man.
And so the commander warden,he's just like, oh.
And so he just very kindly goesinto a really long condolence.

(46:30):
I'm so sorry.
I never knew your husband, but Ihave heard so many wonderful
things.
I really wish I could have methim.
He was an incredible person.
And then he remembers, becausehe had met Joshua, and he had
remembered that he had written,you know, wanted to see the guy.
And so he's like, you know what?

(46:51):
He's right outside if you'd liketo have a word with him.

SPEAKER_02 (46:55):
And oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 (46:57):
I can't describe like what kind of what I feel.
I hardly feel anything exceptfor them just gonna fall out
right there.
Um, I mean, all these years, Iagain theoretically forgave this
guy.
Sure.
And I fantasized about what itwould be like to see him and
what I would say.
I mean, I thought, yeah, I couldsay, um, you know, it'd be

(47:20):
really anyway.
At that point though, I wasflooded with like, I didn't know
what I was gonna do.
And so I was just praying sohard inside.
I'm like, yeah, I would like tohave a word with him.
I was not prepared necessarily.
So they bring him in and he, youknow, greets me, shakes Lewis's

(47:43):
hand.

SPEAKER_05 (47:44):
So let me just set the the visual setting for this.
This room, it's the warden'soffice, which is only about
maybe six by eight feet.
It's a small room.
Yeah.
By this time, after he says toEmily, Would you like to see
him?
The word is spreading.
She's about to talk to the guywho killed.
And so, because there's a coupleguards in the room with with us,

(48:04):
they're going out in the hall.
Now more guards are coming inand they're trying to cram
people.
Now we've got like three or fourguards in the room.

SPEAKER_01 (48:11):
No, they're not in the room.
They were guy like goingsticking their head and they're
looking in the doorway.

SPEAKER_05 (48:16):
They're looking in the doorway.

SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
Because they're they want to see this or because they
want to provide protection.

SPEAKER_05 (48:21):
Well, there was like one guy in there with the warden
that's there for protection.

SPEAKER_01 (48:24):
Protection at first, but then it became clear they're
curious.

SPEAKER_05 (48:28):
They're leaving and going down the hall and bringing
somebody else.
Like they're all of a sudden,this word is spreading fast,
right?
The widow of the man that waskilled is about to talk to the
guy who killed him.
And this room is filling up, andthere's people in the hall, and
so there's this heightenedawareness of what's going on.
And so at this point is whenthis guy comes in, he also
doesn't know yet.

SPEAKER_02 (48:49):
Oh, he doesn't know yet.

SPEAKER_05 (48:50):
Nobody's told him.
He just thinks he's coming in toaddress the leaders of the the
concern.

SPEAKER_01 (48:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (48:56):
The leaders of the medical team.
He wants to be assured they'rewe're gonna use the same
needles, right?
So he he doesn't really make eyecontact with her.
He puts his hand over his heart,which is what you do to females,
and he comes to me and shakes myhand, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (49:09):
Very friendly, shakes our colleagues' hand,
shakes the commander, thewarden's hand, and so we're all
really close.

SPEAKER_05 (49:15):
Yeah.
I mean, we're two, three feetfrom each other.

SPEAKER_01 (49:17):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
And so it's funny, leading up tothat very moment, I felt really
weak.
Like I felt sick, kind of weak,because I just didn't know like
what I was getting.
But at that moment, I just feltstable.
And so he looks, the guy looksat the warden and says, Well,

(49:40):
and the warden said, Do you knowwho this lady is?
And he gives me a brief glanceand looks back and says, No,
she's one of the doctors, right?
And the warden said, Tell himwho you are.
And I all this is in Arabic.
And so I said, Well, I am thewidow of the man that you

(50:03):
murdered a few years ago.
And it immediately his demeanorchanged.
He was like this proud, poisedsort of posture slumped, and he
stopped looking at us at all andwas just staring at the floor
for a bit.
And he didn't say anything.

(50:24):
And then the warden didn't likethat.
He's like, Well, why do you doyou have anything to say to her?
And so he he tries to lift hischin a little bit.
He's like, Yeah, I just want tosay I really regret the death of
your husband.
And by the way, they came in tofight this appeal, they had
changed their story, right?

(50:45):
They were trying to now say, Wewere framed, I wasn't even
there, I was in the hospitalsick, trying to get the
sentences reduced, right?
And anyway, obviously, we knowwe have the forensics, we have,
you know.
So he's saying all of that, andyou know, passing on his
condolences, and he said, Yeah,and unfortunately, you know, I

(51:10):
just appealed and it's it wasdenied, and now I'm just stuck
here, and I won't be able to tobe out, and my children won't
have their father.
And I stopped him there and Isaid, Okay.
Well my children very much lovetheir father, and they don't

(51:30):
have their father now either.
And I think you know why.
Yeah.
And he just said, Well, youknow, I I really wasn't there,
and I'm like, Well, God knowswhether you're innocent or not.
And if you are not, if you areinnocent, I pray God gives you
freedom.
Like, really, that God willprovide you freedom from here.

(51:53):
But if you're not innocent, Ipray that God will have mercy on
your soul and give you your soulfreedom through forgiveness.
And he was just kind ofspeechless.
And I said, dude, there's no wayyou could have known this man
that you you killed.
He loved your people, he lovedGod, and he loved his family,

(52:17):
and he taught his children tolove God and love your country.
And he taught about Jesusbecause we follow Jesus, and
Jesus tells us that we shouldlove our enemies and bless those
who curse us.
And I didn't really realize Iknew that verse, those verses so

(52:37):
well in Arabic, but it just kindof flowed spirit, obviously.
But and by the end of theconversation, I was like, you
know, we harbor no no hatredtowards you.
And I really am sorry for yourfamily.
This is not your children'sfault.

(52:57):
And if there's anything that wecan do, we would love to help
them in any way possible.
And again, there's a humdrum inthe the hallway, you know, these
people are these other guardsare like listening and it's
going, it's going down the hall.

SPEAKER_05 (53:13):
New guards are coming in, then they're leaving,
getting a different guard, andthey're it's like there's a buzz
going on.
And the warden, his mouth isjust dropped open.

SPEAKER_03 (53:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (53:22):
He's like, and he just keeps saying, That's just
amazing.
You know, it's amazing.
Like they're all shocked.

SPEAKER_01 (53:28):
I did ask him if he ever got the letter that my son
had written, and he said, Well,no, I heard about it, but I
never got in, and I looked atthe warden like so um after it
was all over, he went and got onthe table for acupuncture and
stared at me the whole time.

SPEAKER_02 (53:46):
Stared at you.

SPEAKER_01 (53:48):
Yeah, because I went back to translating.

SPEAKER_02 (53:50):
Because they don't use eye contact.

SPEAKER_01 (53:52):
But he stared at you.

SPEAKER_05 (53:54):
Well, and when we walked back into the room, the
it had the news had alreadygotten back to the room.

SPEAKER_01 (53:58):
Yeah, I was really hoping it wouldn't, because I
had just vouched for Dr.
Kim, and I was like, I reallyhope she doesn't know who she's
doing acupuncture on.

SPEAKER_05 (54:07):
But it was So all those same men that were
scattered around the room at thetriage tables who were angry
with their fists clenched.
We walk back into the room andthey all make eye contact with
Emily, and there's thisdifferent, like it's just the
atmosphere was the atmospherechanged.
And this guy comes andeverybody's quiet.
And this guy comes, gets on thetable.

(54:28):
Emily goes back to translatingat her station.

SPEAKER_01 (54:30):
The the back with the son of the former president.
And he's just looking at me, andI'm trying not to look at
anybody because at that point Iwas so on the verge of I didn't
know, like I could not processthe plethora of emotion that I
was feeling.
Like I felt like I could justcrawl in a hole and die.

(54:53):
I felt like I could just cry sohard.
I felt like I could go hugeverybody really hard.
I felt like I could just takesomebody down.
Like it was so weird.
Yeah.
And I just knew I was, Icouldn't do it.
Like I couldn't process thisright now.
So I was just like, I shelfed ituntil, and I had a pretty good
resolve until Dr.

(55:13):
Kim finished the acupuncture,and she was walking over towards
me, and you know, a good Koreanpre-COVID, she had her mask on.

SPEAKER_03 (55:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:24):
And I could see the tears were just rolling down.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,no.
Please do not come over here.
Nope, nope.
And I tried not to make eyecontact with her.
Like, I did not need that.
I guess I did, but like I justwanted to be in the here and
now, process that later.
And then she just came over andsqueezed me really hard and
hugged me, and I almost totallybroke my resolve.

(55:48):
But I cried.
I was starting to cry, which Iwas trying really hard not to
do.
So I wouldn't look at anybodyafter that.
I'm just trying to to translate.
And you know, she goes back towhat she was doing, and then all
of a sudden, this man, theformer president's son, puts his
hand on my arm, and I look upand he's weeping.

(56:10):
Like he's crying.
And he said, We will neverforget your husband.
He was an amazing man.
We will never forget.
And it was just crazy.
Yeah.
The whole atmosphere.

SPEAKER_05 (56:22):
The whole room changed at my table where the
guy was so angry and had fistsand wouldn't look at the nurse,
just out of the blue, after thisman reaches over and touches her
and says that to her, all of asudden this guy just breaks down
and starts wailing.
Like, which they don't showemotion.
And remember that within Islam,you're insulting God if you show
emotion.
And he just throws his head downon the table and just starts

(56:46):
loudly crying and wailing.
And I'm like, ah, what am Isupposed to do?
You know, I'm standing there,I'm going, I don't know what to
do.
So I just go around and I put myhand on him and just start
praying.
Yeah.
And I'm just praying that Godwould help this man and give him
freedom.
And then another guy at anothertable starts wailing, just
starts crying.
These are like terrorists.

(57:06):
And all of a sudden, the wholeroom is filled with emotion.
And it's like the Holy Spiritjust came and said, I'm going to
change this climate.
And from and it and this thiswhole scenario was spreading
through the whole prison likewildfire.
And from that day forward, wehear this talked about every
time we take a visit there abouther encounter that day and what

(57:30):
God did in the prison and howyou know how much God And we
don't know that this guy hasever surrendered his life to
Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 (57:37):
In fact, I think he hasn't.
I think he's more proud thanever.
He's still very celebrated byextremists.
He's very well kept.
Like even though he's in theprison, he's living high on the
high.
Oh yeah.
But we were noticing that therewas still, in spite of that,
there was something happening.

(57:57):
Yes.
And I didn't know like to whatextent or anything.
I mean, we, you know, every yearafter that, we would bring a
medical team and we wouldencounter these guys, but it was
just different, you know.
And so yeah, I wish I had timeto explain what happened this

(58:18):
year during the medical team.

SPEAKER_05 (58:20):
Well, even just to to piggyback on that, though,
because that that story began tobe told in different parts of
the city.
Like we would come in and wewould hear people bring it up,
you know.
And there is there was onesituation where the Lord used
that just a matter of monthsafter we after we left and came
back to the States.
We have a colleague that'sliving there and doing you know

(58:42):
long-term work there.
And he had befriended this guy,you know, that was doing like
tourism, taking people intotours, adventure tours into the
desert.
And he befriended this guy.
Uh, and this guy said, Oh man,you need to come with me out
into the desert.
I want to show you some of theseplates, I want to take you to
the oasis and this kind ofstuff.
And said, Okay, great, yeah.

(59:03):
So they go out, and now they'reall alone out in the desert for
several days.
So the guy starts to get reallyhonest with them.
And he he he says to ourcolleague, and this is maybe
just a few months after we werethere, he said, Listen, man,
come on, be honest with me.
What are you doing here?
You know, this is the armpit ofthe world.
You're an American, you couldlive anywhere.
Why are you living here?

(59:23):
Like he just flat out tell, youknow, ask him.
And our colleague says, Well,let me tell you.
He said, The truth is, you know,several years ago I heard a
story about a family that livedhere.
And they had they brought theirfour kids here, and they lived
here and they loved on thiscountry, and uh some people

(59:44):
killed the father in the street.
And I heard this story back inAmerica, and I thought and I
felt God say, Why don't you go?
Why don't you go in that place?
And he said, so that inspiredme.
And I thought, well, I'll comehere and I'll love these people.
Then if that guy was willing tolay in his life, I'll come love
these people.
These people.
And the guy's like shocked.
And he goes, Wait, wait, wait,wait.

(01:00:04):
I know that story.
You're talking about theAmerican, right?
The American that was killed insuch and such a date.
And he says the date.
He says, I was a childhoodfriend of the guy who killed
him.
Whoa.
And he goes, wait, what do youmean?
He says, Yeah, we we grew up inthe same village.
Our families knew each other.
He was my best friend.
We were we were friendstogether.

(01:00:24):
He said, all the way up intoearly teens.
And uh and he was a funny guy,and he gave us the name, he gave
the name of the dude, and hesays, and then and then we were
teenagers, and all of a suddenthese people came in from you
know from the uh across from theMali border, and they said, Hey,
you know, um they they came inand wanted to recruit us all to

(01:00:45):
come join their movement, andthey were trying to radicalize
all of us, and I was like, Idon't want anything to do with
that, but my friend went withthem.
Wow, and then he came back awhile later and he had this big
beard and he was angry and hehad changed.
And it's like I was just like, Idon't want anything, I can't do
anything with this guy.
And he was trying to recruit himalso.
So our ways kind of parted, andthen you know, it was left

(01:01:08):
disillusioned, so and he wasleft disillusioned with uh with
Islam because of this wholeexperience with his friend.
And then he heard a few yearslater, he was in a taxi
somewhere, whatever, heard it onthe radio that this someone was
just killed.
And he said, right away, I knewI knew that's that's my friend.
I know he did this because theywere talking about doing this

(01:01:28):
kind of stuff.
And he said, So I know this guy.
And so our colleague goes, Well,that's not the end of the story.
So let me tell you, this familystill comes back.
His widow comes back, theybrought their kids back, they
still are doing the work, thehumanitarian work that they were
doing.
As a matter of fact, just a fewmonths ago, uh, this widow met
your childhood friend in theprison.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:49):
Crazy.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:50):
You know, and he tells the story about how Emily
extended forgiveness and talkedabout Jesus and about loving
enemies.
And the guy stops and says,That's it.
That's it.
That's what I'm talking about.
There's nothing in Islam likethat.
He said, If if if that's whatJesus teaches, I want that.
You tell me how I get that,right?
And he ends up sharing with himthe gospel, and this guy becomes

(01:02:15):
a uh a believer.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:16):
Wow.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:17):
Then we find out about this because we're coming
back into the country just twomonths later, right?
And so our colleague calls usand says, Listen, man, I've been
spending time with this guyaround Bible studies.
This is his response.
He really wants to meet you.
And I go, Great, we're cominginto the city.
You know, um, why don't you havehim come and meet with us?
So, and at the at the same time,uh Joshua was still hoping to

(01:02:40):
encounter this guy also.
But because this warden saw theway Emily dealt with the
situation, all of a sudden hehas a change of heart.
And he goes, Oh, well, if that'swhat you're gonna do, then yeah,
we can grant, we can grant yourson the right to, because maybe
he's gonna do the same thing.
So, yeah, if if you if your sonwants to come, he can meet with
this guy too.
Well, you know, um Joshua islike stateside, and all of a

(01:03:04):
sudden in just last minute goes,okay, there's an opportunity.
I'm gonna jump on a plane rightnow.
So he gets a ticket to fly over,right?
As we're trying to figure outwhether he can meet with this
this guy or not.
They're gonna they're gonnaarrange an opportunity for him
to meet with the killer of hisdad.
Well, while this is going on,this other guy who just became a
believer is coming into theCapitol to meet with us while

(01:03:26):
Joshua's flying in.
He doesn't even know because wecan't get a hold of him.
He's on the plane.
So this guy, we're telling thestory to this new believer.
This believer is just shocked.
He's like, I want to bebaptized.
I want to follow, I want, I wantto follow the Lord that way.
And can you guys, can youarrange for me to be baptized?
Which obviously all this has tohappen in secret, you know.
And and so he's like, would itbe possible for you guys to be a

(01:03:49):
part of that?
And for uh, you know, your son,the son of the man who was
killed, can he be part ofbaptizing me?
So while Joshua's flying over inthe plane, you know, this is all
sort of being arranged.
And then Joshua gets off theplane to find out that he's
gonna get to meet with this guyface to face, and we're gonna

(01:04:10):
get to baptize this new believerbecause of this story.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:13):
Who was led to the Lord by a man who was there
because he heard Stephen'sstory?

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:18):
All of this, all of this piece together.
So what you can see is how theLord's using the story, the
story of just the willingnessthat in spite of evil, we're
gonna finish, we're gonna finishfollowing the Lord.
This family is willing to keeploving a people who killed the
husband, the father, and keeploving, and it showed
forgiveness.

(01:04:38):
And that that part of what beinga Jesus follower is, is the
thing God is using over and overnow.
That more people are coming tothe Lord because of that.
So Joshua comes into thecountry, and then he gets to
actually have a one-on-oneencounter with this guy who
killed his father.
And we get to baptize this dudeearly in the morning when

(01:05:00):
nobody's around out in theocean, who, by the way, now has
gotten married, led his wife tothe Lord, and the two of them
are trying to uh find ways to uhplant churches underground in
the country.
And it's just all the thingsGod's building in that scenario.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:20):
So I don't even know if you have time to tell the
story of how Joshua met theuntil that, and then yeah, well
what because I want to bemindful of y'all's time, but the
last thing I want to do is talkabout just very briefly what
next year's plans are, yeah, andthen we'll come do a longer
conversation about that.
But I would love to hear aboutJoshua's encounter.

(01:05:42):
Yeah, I keep wanting to call himhis real name.
Joshua's encounter, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:46):
Yeah, so um they arranged this meeting, and he
expected, you know, that hewould be able to just go and
sit, and then this guy wouldhave a bunch of iron guards
around him or whatever for hisprotection.
Again, my son is a big dude, andthis guy is not.

(01:06:06):
And so um, they arranged for himto sit in this this small
office, and Joshua said that he,you know, he he came in, they
brought him into this room, sathim down, and then they they
bring in the guy, and then theguy's like looks at Joshua and
is like, oh and then he turnsaround to see all the guards go

(01:06:30):
out of the room and close thedoor.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:32):
Just the two of them.
They left him in there.
I think they really wanted totest this.
Like, yeah, okay, we're gonnagive them the opportunity to do
what would have been legallyright.
You can you can take revenge,it's legally right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:44):
In that country.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:44):
Yeah, but they so it's almost like, okay, we're
gonna test this forgivenessthing.
We're just gonna step out andsee what happens.
And they left him in there.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:52):
Wow.
So he did have he did have oneof our other colleagues that we
have become very close with.
He is actually the one in theend of the book in the epilogue
that came over and visited thegrave and all of that.
He's so close to the kingdom atthis point.
But the, you know, back when myson had this encounter, he
wasn't yet there.

(01:07:13):
But it was so impactful for himto be able to go in.
He was just willing to, youknow, my son speaks really good
French.
His Arabic wasn't super, supergood, and so he asked him to
just come and clarify becausethe killer had not, like he was
fairly uneducated otherwise anddidn't know French very well.
So, um, so our colleague wasthere with him during this whole

(01:07:37):
experience, and just evenhearing him talk about it, it
was very, very impactful forhim.
But yeah, so this guy comes inand is sitting right across from
my son, scared to death.
Like Joshua said he was visiblyscared for good reason, and was
shocked though to hear Joshuaexpress just no hatred, but

(01:08:00):
prayer.
Like he just told him, I prayfor you.
I pity you.
You know, there's no way youknew my dad.
So um, so that was a wow crazy.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:12):
And he said the same thing to him.
He said, My my dad taught us tobe followers of Jesus, and Jesus
taught us to love our enemies,and I have no hatred towards you
because I follow Jesus.
I mean, he was just straight up,and then we've his the guy
translating for him, one of ourcolleagues who works for our
NGO, who's a high-identityMuslim, he's listening to all

(01:08:33):
this and just struck with it.
He still talks to us about it.
Like I can't believe that Joshuadid that, you know.
And just to see how God usesthat, I think we underestimate
that this is one of the mostunique things about our faith,
that we have hope in suffering.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:50):
Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:51):
That when when evil and suffering happens, we exude
a different kind of hope thanthe rest of the world has.
And we also we have a capacityto truly love our enemies
because of the grace of the LordJesus.
These two things, I don't thinkwe I don't think we give it
enough credence to know thatthis is our most powerful

(01:09:14):
witness in a world that doesn'tknow Christ.
And this is what we see Godcontinuing to use in this
country over and over.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:22):
And I think, you know, I don't know if I take
this verse out of context.
I don't think I do, but I I youknow the the scripture where in
Psalm 23 where he prepares atable before us in the presence
of our enemies, you know, Joshuacould have gone in there and
just let loose on this guy.

(01:09:43):
But instead he was presentingsomething this guy had no idea
was a result of his crime andhis hatred and his like my son's
sitting there with a tablebefore him of abundance, and
that abundance is he's good.
He has peace, he has eternity,he has this feast this guy in

(01:10:07):
front of him knows nothingabout.
And I feel like that alone isone of the most powerful aspects
of being able to forgivesomebody that's done something
so horrible to you, and you knowthis guy absolutely meant for
harm.
And now he's sitting across fromthis spiritually rich young man

(01:10:28):
who's forgiving him, and he'svery well taken care of by his
his savior, his God.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:35):
That is gold.
Yes, I've never known that partof the story.
I mean, we literally just postedtwo episodes about forgiveness
and reconciliation.
Wow.
Yeah, the last two episodes.
Yeah, that's what they're about.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:51):
And we just interviewed a week ago a former
staff who different story, buthad a still underlying theme of
forgiveness and not harboringbitterness, and that is truly so
convicting and just soencouraging.
Like that last picture that youjust painted of like Joshua

(01:11:12):
sitting with a feast that hisenemy has no idea, and like he's
able to share that.
That is such a beautifulpicture, and like praise the
Lord for that that we are ableto like, and I've never even
thought about that of like whata unique aspect are like we
have, like that the Lord givesus of forgiveness and like hope

(01:11:32):
and suffering.
And yes, that's so clearlytalked about in scripture and
like even brought up in sermonsand everything like that, but
truly like just focusing andlike dwelling in that of like
have joy in that, like rejoicein that.
Like that's such a beautifulthing that we have, and need to

(01:11:53):
tap into more, you know, need tolike rely on that more.
So good.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:58):
Thank y'all for coming.
Yes.
I know, you know, uh asking youto take two days and come here
and hopefully it wasn't good tosee some folks, but um it's not
lost on us the the gift this isto us and to people that are
following along the snowbirdjourney.

(01:12:19):
But we would like to come back,come your way and we could do
this a couple more times.
This is awesome just to hearwhat God's doing.
And definitely and uh I'd liketo get into even some some
conversations aboutopportunities, you know, in
terms of missions andmobilization and how to minister
at home.
We have such a diverseinternational community within

(01:12:41):
our borders, so manyopportunities.
We see it through PinwheelTutoring with the Hispanic
community from about fourdifferent countries.
And um yeah, that'd be a funconversation.
But y'all are amazing testimony,trophies of grace.
You know, the the Lord, youknow, that picture.
I love the picture of Jesus inRevelation 19 where he's wearing

(01:13:02):
the seven crowns, and I've heardit's you know the crowns of his
conquest, and his his uh robe isdipped in blood, and there's
debate over what that blood isthe blood of his enemies, the
blood of the cross, whatever.
But there's no doubt you know,the person that you're talking
about.
I believe I started thatinterview talking about she's a

(01:13:23):
trophy of God's grace in thisministry.
And y'all are trophies of God'sgrace.
He's sometimes he just showsout.
He just does stuff that makesyou go, wow.
Only God could could be capableof a story like this.
Yeah.
And we're right in the middle ofthe story.
I mean, who knows?
What's God gonna do?
You know, it's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:44):
Stay tuned.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:45):
Oh, we will.
Yeah, we'll be on the edge ofour seat.
So thank y'all.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:50):
Yeah, thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:53):
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