Martyred, But Not Silenced | The Price of Making Jesus Known in a Muslim Country

In this episode, we sit down with Emily Foreman to hear her story, from a small town in the U.S. to an African city that calls itself 100% Muslim. Emily and her late husband, Stephen, began their mission work in prisons and by giving microloans. Over time, they built strong friendships and quietly shared their faith, even though local laws made it risky and danger was growing.

After militants killed tourists nearby, most aid workers left the country. But Emily and Stephen chose to stay and continue their calling. When tragedy struck, Emily responded with forgiveness that broke down fear and opened new doors. Today, their work continues through family and friends who carry on the torch of love, courage, and faithfulness.

Check out Emily's book:

We Died Before We Came Here

Send us a text

Please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help improve No Sanity Required and help others grow in their faith.

Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_05 (00:00):
Hey, in this week's episode of No Sanity Required,

(00:02):
I'm going to sit down with alady named Emily Foreman and her
husband Lewis.
Now, that's not their realnames, but that's the names
we're using because they aredoing fairly clandestine work
when it comes to gospel work andimpact and the places they're
going.
And they have an incrediblestory.
I mean, one of the most amazingstories I've ever heard and

(00:25):
witnessed in real time and beena part of.
Um, this is one of those nosanity stories that's going to
have you, I think, on the edgeof your seat.
It'll be two episodes to get allof this uh covered.
Um, JB and I sat down with them,and it was just an amazing time.
They spent a couple days here atSnowbird.

(00:46):
Um, we had a few meals together,just fellowship, little and I,
and this couple that is verydear to our hearts.
We love them so much.
And uh Emily's, I don't want togive too much of it away, but
Emily's uh first husband wasmartyred for the gospel by uh
jihadists.
They were uh working and theycontinue to work in a in a

(01:06):
deeply Muslim context.
Um crazy story.
Anyway, the gospel is is gonnacontinue to to do the work that
that God intends for his gooddudes to do, and um, and he's
using this amazing couple to getthat work done.
Um excited for y'all to hearfrom them, and uh, I don't want
to talk any more about it.
Let's just get into it.

(01:27):
Welcome to this week's episodeof No Sanity Required.

SPEAKER_04 (01:35):
Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of
Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters,a podcast about the Bible,
culture, and stories from aroundthe globe.

SPEAKER_05 (01:46):
I want to start by kind of laying the foundation or
the framework for ourconversation with Emily and
Lewis.
Pseudonyms, but those are thenames we'll be using.
Um in 2000 something, one year,try to try to speak as
cryptically as we can and stillexpress the meaning of the
story.

(02:07):
I remember uh a person, uh, alady on staff walked up to me.
This was in the summer, it wasduring summer camp, and she had
a copy of USA Today.
And there was a there was, Idon't remember the article, I
remember the headline, but itwas an article about an aid

(02:28):
worker in a in a country inAfrica had been killed by
Al-Qaeda.
And I will say this was duringthe conflict, you know, the
20-year global war on terror.
So it was during during thattime frame, that 20-year time
frame.
And so, you know, Al-Qaeda was athat always was a buzzword to
Westerners, just like ISIS orTaliban or and so when I saw

(02:53):
that, I remember saying to thislady who still is a uh really um
faithful and active member atRed Oak, our church, but she was
working at Snowbird with us atthe time.
And I said, I believe he'sprobably got a gospel
missionary, like probably amissionary worker of some sort
if if Al Qaeda killed him.

(03:16):
And so we had this conversationwhere um I asked her to start
working to track down thisfamily because and I don't
remember if we knew this fromthe article.
I think maybe we did someresearch and found out later
that there was a wife and somechildren, knowing the country

(03:39):
this was in, knew that theywould not be able to stay.
Like it's not gonna be feasible.
They'll they'll come home.
So let's find them when theywhen they get back home.
Let's try to track them down,even if it's six months or a
year from now.
I'm sure there's gonna be a lotof security around them.
Let's find them, let's trackthem down and see how we can
just connect with them.
And particularly if they'rekids, that's our heart, you

(04:01):
know, is the next generation,both in terms of discipleship
and future mobilization.
And and in this conversation, Iremember we talked about the
fact that if this if this persondied for the sake of the gospel,
then we wanted to come inquickly behind that.
And literally, in that initialconversation off of a USA Today

(04:25):
article, you look back, God hasforesight.
We get to live long enough tohave hindsight.
We're like, oh, that was totallythe Lord orchestrating that, you
know.
Um, you don't even realize whatyou're saying.
And I just said, We need tominister to this family and we
need to raise up someone to goin behind them, you know, like
mobile mobilize somebody.

(04:45):
For for our listeners that don'tknow what that word mobilize or
mobilization means, it's just inlayman's terms, like like
sending people to do the work onthe mission field, sending them
from among us.
And and and with that trainingand equipping and and supporting
and so that was where theconversation started.

(05:07):
Over the next maybe over thenext two or three weeks, we
found out through some detectivework and asking questions, and
we found out that this familyonly lived a couple states away,
not far from us, you know, andhad ties in Raleigh, um, had
ties in Tennessee, had ties inTexas, all over Southeast, but

(05:30):
but that we could get to thempretty easy where they were.
So the Lord just beautifullyorchestrated um a meeting and a
and and a relationship wasformed and started, and there
were children, there were fourkids that all then were able to
have a snowbird experience whenthey were, you know, in in their
teenage years, and and then a arelationship was forged with

(05:53):
this family and with thesnowbird family, and then
eventually um Emily and Lewiswere brought together by the
Lord, married, and then thatrelationship has continued, and
it's just been for me one of thejoys of my life following it,
tracking it, and seeing how theLord's worked.

(06:13):
We did um mobilize a family andsend them right back in there,
and I just believe the gospel'sgonna saturate that place
because that family sufferedloss also.
Um terrible loss, but uh theylost a child, um, and they're

(06:34):
still faithfully serving theLord and not in that same place,
but not not too far, also stillin Africa, just in a different
country, and w we continue tohold the rope for them.
And they were recently here on avisit and spent a month with us,
and they'll be back next yearfor several months.
But just the way the stories uhare interwoven in our lives and

(06:54):
ministries, even though we don'tsee y'all a lot, we could not
put together a podcast, book,stories of what guys are doing
around the world without havingy'all's story here.
So thank y'all for coming.
It means a lot that you'd behere, it means a whole lot.
So I'm hoping we can do this intwo episodes.
Um start by telling uh sort ofthe first chapter of what y'all

(07:18):
were doing, where you were at,Emily, and then how we met after
tragedy struck, um, and then howthe Lord has used that.
And then the second episode,then Lewis comes into the story,
and then we'll kind of tocurrent day.
And and also I'd like to end thesecond episode just with family
update, uh, because God'scontinuing to grow and expand

(07:42):
y'all's family, which is justcool.
Uh yeah.
So what what do you what's yourfirst do you have a first memory
of when we connected?
Or is it more like all of that'sa blur and we just seem like
we've been friends forever?

SPEAKER_02 (07:57):
Yeah, I do have a memory.
Um so when we first heard fromyou guys, I we were freshly
back, no place to live, novehicle to drive.
We were staying with my in-laws,so my late husband's parents.
And um my father-in-law got acall from someone from from

(08:22):
here, from Snowbird, and he Iguess through your investigators
found out where we were stayingand how to get in contact with
us, and um and got the addressand just was very kind, invited
us here.
Remember the guy's name wasBrian.

(08:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um and shortly after that.

SPEAKER_05 (08:47):
Who's a missionary now, by the way?
Oh, they're serving full-time inEurope.

SPEAKER_02 (08:51):
Wow.

SPEAKER_05 (08:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
That's so cool.
Um, so yeah, shortly after that,I got a package in the mail
there, and it was this bulgingpackage at some point, I can't
remember how soon after, butyeah.
Um, we were in the process oftrying to figure out where are
we gonna live?
What are we gonna drive?

(09:13):
Like, you know, borrowingpeople's vehicles and things
like that.
And just really feeling stillsort of in the throes of
everything, like not feelinglike we have landed anywhere or
connected.

(09:33):
And you know, my first husbandand I both we grew up in that
area.
We had people we knew, we hadour church, and they were very
supportive.
Um, but it was kind of strange.
Like that it was difficult tofind people to talk to that
actually got it, you know, andmy kids found that to be the

(09:53):
case too.
They would just they uh ended upjust not even talking about
their experience with other kidsbecause they would just give
them blank stares.
And so we felt supported in alot of ways, but that there just
was something missing.
We felt a bit lost at sea.
Um, but then in comes thisbulging envelope full of the

(10:20):
most encouraging and justvalidating um letters, and it
came from a bunch of kids, youknow, and so it was just so
wonderful to see my kids readingthese letters.
And I think even though I'm suremost of those kids who wrote
those letters had never beenoverseas, had never experienced

(10:44):
that, but because of the type ofdiscipleship Snowbird Snowbird
provides, they had a clue.
And that was so meaningful to mykids and to me, lots of letters
from staff and just and maybe itwas mostly staff and some kids,
but it I still have thatenvelope to this day.
And not only that, inside wasalso can't remember if it was a

(11:08):
watt of cash or or a check.

SPEAKER_05 (11:12):
Yeah, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
Yeah, apparently Snowbird had taken up money to
help us purchase a vehicle, andthere was absolutely enough in
that envelope to buy ourvehicle.
So that's wild.
Yeah.
So after that, um you guysinvited us up.
So we came up with my in-lawsand were able to tour and get to

(11:33):
know you guys, and it was justthere was just an immediate
connection.
It was unique.

SPEAKER_05 (11:40):
Yeah, yeah, special.
I remember uh when I talked tothe staff, I can still remember
we we do staff worship onMondays in the summer.
And I remember just saying tothem, Hey, this family has lost
their father and husband, and wewe have responsibility to make

(12:00):
sure these kids know that theirfather didn't die in vain.
And uh and I don't remember thenature of the whole talk, but
that Monday that was the charge,that was the whole message I
gave.
And and then, hey, we're gonnapass the hat essentially.
Just when you know, here'sso-and-so is assigned with

(12:21):
collecting money.
Just you can give money.
We wanna we wanna show them, wewanna give sacrificially.
But I literally thought it'll beawesome if we hit a thousand
bucks.
I mean a bunch of poor collegekids working their summer.
Snowbird doesn't pay good.
You know, you basically get astipend.
We had kids give their entiresummer stipend.
Yeah.

(12:42):
Where I think, you know,probably they had parents that
got on board, they told theirparents about they're like, hey,
we'll support.
I would, you know, like I thinkas a dad, I hope I would say to
my daughter, give it all.
We'll we got you.
You know, I think that maybehappened.
It was cool.
They gave sacrificially.
They really did.
I mean one guy, one guy came upto me and he had his whole

(13:02):
summer pay in a watt of cash.
And he said, I want to give allmy that's the only one I
remember specifically, but hegave his entire every dime from
the summer.

SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
That's so cool.

SPEAKER_05 (13:14):
So cool.
So let's walk, let's back up.
So would love to just heary'all's story.
And I we'll we'll link JB'lllink the the book.
You wrote a book.
It's called We Died Before WeCame Here, and it tells a story,
and I really, really encouragefolks to get that.

SPEAKER_03 (13:34):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (13:35):
And there is an audible version of it, so either
get the book or or get theaudible book and listen to it or
read it.
Um it's phenomenal.
It's it's incredible.
I mean, it's so encouraging.
But let's just let's kind ofwalk through what y'all were
doing, how you got there, whatthat calling looked like, what
your work had been like forthose few years that you had

(13:56):
been in because quite a while.
Um you still speak Arabic?
A little bit.

SPEAKER_02 (14:02):
None.
Should we?

SPEAKER_05 (14:03):
That means yes.

SPEAKER_02 (14:04):
Yes.
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (14:05):
All right.
That was when I read the book, Ican still remember because it
was a what year did the bookcome out?

SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
2016.

SPEAKER_05 (14:12):
Yeah, I think I read it in 16 or 17.
I think I read it before itwent.
You had sent us a copy, even.
And uh I remember being shockedat how fast y'all learned
Arabic.
It's crazy.
Um, but that's the Lord'sprovision, no doubt, and a lot
of hard work.
But yeah, just so walk usthrough what y'all were doing,

(14:32):
how you got there, your familydynamic.

SPEAKER_02 (14:34):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So um I grew up in a backwoodsBaptist church, taught to love
the Lord and love people.
And um though my church didn'thave a real global vision at
that point, we were very, veryoutreach-oriented.
So I was grateful to grow up inan environment like that.

(14:58):
Um and there was this pointwhere a traveling missionary
came through, and actuallyactually a doctor who had just
been to Kenya or somewhere inEast Africa and shared about his
ministry and about those he wasreaching.
And I think I was about 13 atthat point.
And it absolutely ruined me.

(15:20):
I remember going home and cryingmyself to sleep that night.
And I think I cried the next fewnights.
Just I was so just struck by theneed.
And I'd been so sheltered.
We knew we had needs next door,but there was something that the
Lord planted in my heart at thatpoint, and it totally ruined my

(15:43):
American dream that I wasalready constructing in my head,
and I was just dissatisfied.
And so I it was that at thatpoint where the Lord basically
just said, I have somethingdifferent for you.
Um, didn't know what that meant.
I went on and became arebellious and stupid teenager
in a lot of ways, and then heredeemed me, and I met Stephen.

(16:07):
And yeah, it's Stephen was justa different kind of guy.
He loved the Lord and actuallywarned me when we first started
talking.
We weren't even at the datingstage.
He warned me that he was calledto long-term into missions and
that I should know that it's notgonna be anywhere easy because

(16:28):
all the easy places are taken.
It's gonna be a hard place.
And I thanked him, you know, andhe gave me a book to read.
Ironically, Fox's Book ofMartyrs.
Nope.
And and I thought that travelingmissionary ruined me.
Oh my goodness, reading thatbook, I felt like I had to get

(16:49):
saved all over again.
Like I thought I'd given youeverything, Lord, but oh my
goodness, no, I haven't, youknow.
So that rocked my world.
And um Stephen and I datedbriefly.
Um, and then the Lord brought ustogether, and we didn't know
when or where, but we knew thatwe would be going abroad at some

(17:12):
point again to a difficultplace.
And this was, you know, in the90s, in the 1900s.
The last century.
Yeah.
And so, I mean, we had theOperation World manual we were
reading through.
Um, so we knew there were a lotof hard places.
Um, so we five five years intoour marriage, three kids and

(17:33):
five years later, um, we decidedit's time.
So we sold everything and wentand did our training with Youth
with a Mission.
And not knowing again at thatpoint, not knowing where we were
gonna land long term, and nevereven had heard of the country we
were going to, that the Lordwould eventually send us to.
We did our training, we learneda little bit more about

(17:54):
different world religions, and Ihad no idea anything about Islam
at that point.
I just knew that it hadsomething to do with, you know,
those national geographic photoswhere they have turbans on their
heads and they just look alien,like foreign.
Never had an interest in that,you know.

(18:14):
But then as the Lord made itclear where we would be going,
which happened to be a veryIslamic country, they brag of
being 100% Islamic.
Well, we know that's not truetoday, but um, so a pretty
intense place.
Um, so we did our training, hada fourth child, and then we were

(18:35):
we had settled, the Lord hadsettled us on the country we
would go to.
So we started fundraising andgetting ready to to go to Quebec
for language study.
And in that process, literallyjust a few short months before
we would be landing in thedesert, um, 9-11 happened.

(18:56):
And so suddenly this term Islamtook on a whole new meaning.
And people who were for us andhappy to support what we were
doing were now questioning like,why?
Why would you want to go andreach those people?
And we had people, a couple ofour supporters pulled their

(19:17):
support because they would saythings like, There's no way we
can support anything that'shelping those people.
Um, so Stephen and I prayed hardabout it and just felt actually
more of an intense urgency anddesire to go.
And so we did, not knowing whatwe'd get ourselves into, because

(19:39):
we had been seeing all the newseverybody else has been seeing,
which was Islam equalsterrorism.
Yeah, we're the infidels,they're out to get us, you know,
they're all on jihad.
And so we went in kind of withfear and trembling and a lot of
prayer, not really knowing whatwe were getting ourselves into.
But once we got there, we weredelightfully surprised that

(20:03):
these are among the mostwonderful, warm, hospitable, and
loving people we'd ever meet.
And as we were going in tryingto sort of break down this
preconceived idea that all of usAmericans are, you know,
warmongers and anti-Muslim andall of that, you know, that were

(20:24):
really no no danger, no threat.
Um, they were coming at ustrying to convince us that they
weren't all terrorists.
So we made a lot of friends fromthe get-go.

SPEAKER_01 (20:37):
And did they have any like preconceptions about I
guess Western, WesternizedAmerican culture?

SPEAKER_02 (20:45):
Yeah.
And actually, um, I think thisis a little known fact to most
of us in the West who don'treally have a lot of experience
with Islam or Muslims.
But Islam is a it's like abirthright.
So to be born in a Muslimcountry, you're born a Muslim.

(21:06):
It's not a choice you make.
Whereas in the West, we knowthat, well, we're born, it we
may be born into a Christianfamily, but ultimately it's our
choice to decide to follow Jesusor not.
And but they didn't realizethat, really.
They thought we were all borninto a Christian country,
therefore we all must beChristian, okay, including
everyone that was coming out inmedia, everyone in Hollywood,

(21:31):
all of those rappers who rapsome really gross stuff are
Christians, quote unquote.
Yeah, they're born in aChristian country.
So we had our work cut out forus to just live a life that
showed a different reality.
And so the Lord gave us thatopportunity.
And I think one of our besttools to do that was living

(21:52):
there as a family.
You know, we had four kids.
We are we were already sort ofchallenging some preconceived
ideas.
They thought all Americans hatekids, you know, we want one,
maybe one and a half, or a dog,or you know, but here we are
with four kids, same husband,same wife.
They would say that all thetime.
Same husband, same wife.

(22:13):
They have four kids together.
Um, and just being able to livelife like we otherwise would
have lived our lives here, youknow, just living our faith out
loud and through how we loveeach other, how we treat our
children, how we treat otherpeople.
And so that's that's kind of thechallenge we were given up
front.

(22:34):
We didn't realize, okay, whatwe're gonna have to come up
against isn't terrorism, it's areally messed up, preconceived
idea of what Christianity is inthe first place.
So yeah, we were there um totalseven years.
It did take us a while initiallyto get adapted.

(22:54):
It was difficult because it is avery restricted country, so we
knew we couldn't obviouslycouldn't come in on a missionary
visa, and we had to findcreative ways or a creative way
to be able to even be there.
But then we had to find creativeways to share our faith without

(23:15):
getting ourselves kicked out.
We did learn early on that itwasn't the government that was
our issue.
Like the government turns out tobe pretty tolerant, they don't
mind so much us being therebecause it is a very
impoverished country and theyneed all the help they can get
on in terms of relief anddevelopment and the humanitarian

(23:36):
type work.
So we did discover, though, aswe were living there, that the
real issue or the bigger threatcame from just the extremist and
the community, which were theminority.
There weren't we really didn'tinteract with many of those at
all.
But um, because our workconsisted mainly initially of

(23:58):
just project work in the prisonsystems, um we yeah, we were
interacting some with people whowere extreme.
But for the most part, we weregreatly appreciated, greatly
loved.
Um and so we found it easy to bethere as far as acceptance.

(24:19):
Um but it was challenging,obviously, going from you know,
our home, or actually fromwinter in Quebec, Canada to
summer in the Sahara Desert.
The Lord decided to stretch usgood and yeah hard in the
beginning, you know.
But the climate was a challenge.

(24:40):
The I would die.

SPEAKER_05 (24:44):
You get off the plane, it feels like a wall of
hot stifling air just hits youin the face, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 (24:52):
Yep, you just enter a furnace, only a really large
furnace.

SPEAKER_05 (24:55):
And you gotta be, as a woman, you're covered top to
bottom, head to toe.
Can't show what your wrists andankles are about it.
You said that yeah, yeah.
You said they they thought youwere poor because your ankles
and wrists were too scrubbing.

SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Yeah, so the thicker your your ankles and wrists, the
more beautiful you are as awoman.
So yeah, I was lacking in that.
I got a lot of pity from a lotof my female friends.
But um, yeah, so it was it wentwell.
I mean, we were it wasdifficult, but we started seeing

(25:35):
more fruit.
We started realizing that, youknow, our means by which we
share the gospel here in theWest don't necessarily adapt
there very well.
You can't go door to door withthe flyer, you can't post a
bunch on social media about youknow turning to Jesus.

(25:56):
You have to be a lot morecreative, but the enemy really
worked on us for a while, makingus think that we weren't being
productive.
Like, what are we doing here?
We're not seeing much fruit.
And um, and the Lord had by thenjust convicted us that we were
trying too hard to strategizeand that we needed to simply

(26:16):
just follow the commands andlove him and love people around
us.
So we did that.
And it was about that time thatwe finally just relaxed and
stopped looking and assessingour success, you know, based on
our fruit that we were seeing.
Um, and it was at that pointthat the Lord started really
showing us some fruit that wascoming from it.

(26:38):
But at that same time, the enemywas not happy about that either.
And Al-Qaeda had just started uminfiltrating a lot of North
Africa, doing um setting uptraining camps around the
country where we were, and theywere recruiting these

(26:59):
low-hanging fruit, these youngmen in villages and remote
areas, they were completelydisconnected from the rest of
the world.
So it was easy to go andconvince their parents that this
was an honorable thing if theyjust come and join jihad.
And um, and so that's what theydid.
They were recruiting these youngmen, training them, and then

(27:20):
sending them out to wreak havoc.
And um yeah, a few years afterwe were there, there was um an
attack on some French touristsum by the some of the Al-Qaeda
members, and they were they hadkilled several tourists and
gotten away.
So there was this chase.
I remember we heard they made itto the city and were like

(27:43):
fleeing and they were chasingafter them, and it was like very
close to our house.
And just we we started realizingat that point, okay, maybe the
risk here is much higher than werealized.
Um, and so although there werenever really enough
missionaries, enough Christianworkers there from the beginning

(28:05):
after that event, there were uhfar fewer.
So people were being pulled outor taking voluntary sabbatical
or just yeah, fleeing,basically.

SPEAKER_05 (28:16):
What was the there was a story about because the
prison ministry was the firstreal boots on the ground
ministry I were doing, right?
And there was a guy, I feel likea guy from the book, it's been a
while, but that came to faithwho was in prison for having
shot into the vehicle of somemissionaries.

(28:36):
Is that right?
Am I on track?
What was that story?

SPEAKER_02 (28:40):
Yeah, that story, um there was a man who was director
of a pretty well-knownhumanitarian organization who
was just visiting the beach withhis 10-year-old daughter, and
there was uh a local man thereum just wandering around and

(29:01):
approached them.
And um before they realized hehad pulled a gun, pulled a gun
out and was shooting into thevehicle as this man was driving
away.
They survived, thankfully.
The man was shot in the arm.
Um his daughter got a shot likeacross her chest, so it did
damage, but didn't likeinfiltrate, like it wasn't yeah,

(29:25):
it and so they both survivedobviously very traumatic.
Um and so yeah, there's a bookon that event too, maybe.
Yeah, but the man who had shotthem, of course, was arrested
and put into prison.
And um, we had a really greatguy that was ended up coming on

(29:52):
with us and working very closelywith Steven, um, who was a
refugee from another Africancountry, but a strong believer.
In the Lord, and he was teachingFrench, you know, it's in a
school, but also on the side wasdoing a taxi business.
And before I get there, though,I will say that the man and his

(30:14):
family, his daughter and therest of his family, did visit
this man in prison and took themsupplies, took him supplies and
actually extended forgiveness.
Wow.
And so it just transformed thisman.
And so fast forward now, our ourhe's now our director, but then
he was working closely with us.

(30:35):
He was driving his taxi in andsees in the front of the central
prison this man that looks likea crazy man.
I mean, been in prison for awhile.
His hair was all crazy.
It was just he had nothing.
And so our colleague pulledover, you know, and offered him
a ride only to find out that hewas that man.

(30:58):
Wow.
And that he was completelychanged.
And so, yeah, so it turns out umhe ended up getting to know
Steven, and Steven was even ableto provide a small loan for him
to be able to get back on hisfeet.
Um, and I believe he came to theLord.

(31:19):
Yeah.
So that's so cool.

SPEAKER_05 (31:23):
Because the small you might be headed in this
direction with the story, butdoing those micro loans, small
loans, that was a big yourplatform grew more into that.
That became okay, but go goahead, just continue.
Because I know I'm sure you'llget to that.

SPEAKER_02 (31:41):
Yeah, so at by then, whenever we encountered this
man, um, Steven, he had actuallygone into the directorship of
this organization that we wentin to work for.
He he was taking overdirectorship, the former
director was leaving, and um atthat point it was just prison

(32:02):
project stuff, like really basicstuff.
Wasn't even in the men's prisonat that point, it was really
pretty much just the women'sprison that there was anything
going on.
And so Stephen expanded all ofthat, but his his deeper desire
was to be able to providemicrocredit loans um for people

(32:25):
to be able to sort of be ableto, you know, create their own
little business and be able toprovide for their families.
Obviously, it's a poor country,you can't just go to the bank
and get a business loan.
And um so we ended up uh welearned the hard way in a lot of
ways, who to fund and who not tofund.

(32:46):
And we learned pretty quickly ingeneral, you don't just give a
microcredit loan to a man.
There had to be women involvedas well, and then it sort of
developed into or evolved into amuch more successful plan, which
was funding cooperatives.
So, but the cooperative had tohave at least three people and

(33:08):
at least the majority of neededto be women.
And it was it was thoseprojects, those um little
enterprises that would pay backtheir loans so so faithfully.

SPEAKER_01 (33:20):
Which was that pretty controversial?
Like I know um cultures likethat can be pretty oppressive to
women.
Was that like a topic ofcontroversy or was it pretty
accepted?
No, it was very much accepted.

SPEAKER_02 (33:35):
Okay, cool.
Yeah, very much accepted.
And the women are you knowoppressed in a lot of ways.
But um yeah, but in thatculture, the both parents, all
the family, of course, theirdesire is that they prosper, you
know, the kids are able to go toschool.

(33:56):
And mainly the women, they theyreally were so good about taking
their profits and using it toprovide for the family and send
their kids to school.
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 (34:08):
What would the amount of a typical loan be in
US dollars?
We're talking small money,right?

SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
About$300.

SPEAKER_05 (34:14):
And that they could start a business.
Maybe it's one of those I'vetraveled in a lot of African
countries and Asian and SouthAmerican, like a roadside kiosk
type little boutique or kioskwhere they're maybe they're
selling Coca-Cola products orsomething like that.

SPEAKER_02 (34:31):
Sugar and rice and yeah, yeah, okay.
Or a vegetable stand.
Something as simple as that.
Or a boutique where um, becausewe also had training centers
where we were teaching uhvocational skills as well.
Um, and they would learn sewingthere, for example.
Most of the women wereilliterate, but they could learn

(34:54):
to sew.
And we had a business classwhere they could learn how to
manage their money, how tounderstand business and learn
how to create a profit margin.
You know, like and they theywere amazing.
Even though they wereilliterate, we geared the class
to accommodate and they did it,they're intelligent people.

(35:17):
They did a very, very good jobat um doing that.
So yeah, they many of them umwent well, we encouraged them
initially, you know, you payback your loan on time, and you
will qualify for another loan,like a bigger loan to expand

(35:37):
whatever your business is.
And that was so motivating.
We had several of them thatwould they worked hard, they
paid it back early so they couldquit get that second loan and be
able to expand their business.
So that's so cool.
Yeah, by the time we left there,it I think we had about 150
cooperatives in the city.

SPEAKER_05 (35:59):
150.

SPEAKER_01 (36:00):
So, in that um first, I want you to briefly
talk about the differences, Iguess, in religion.
And kind of the second piece tomy question is in these
trainings and these likevocational things, was it like
heavy like gospel-centered, orwas that just kind of like you

(36:23):
got to crack the door with theselike vocational trainings, build
up a relationship, and then youknow, slowly start to integrate
um like the gospel.
But first, will you tell usabout just like the differences
in what they believe?

SPEAKER_02 (36:37):
Yeah, it's hard to know where to start on that one.
Um yeah, they're veryfatalistic.
And so it's really sad to see avery impoverished Muslim family
lose a child to malnutrition orsome senseless illness, and

(36:58):
they're not allowed to cry.
Oh wow, in front of anyonebecause that insults Allah's
will.
Okay.
Um even though you know likedeep down they're agonizing over
the death of this child.
So that was one of the harsherdifferences that we encountered.

(37:20):
Um but it also provided an opendoor.
So we were able to just sit withthese people who lost a loved
one or you know, a tragedystrikes, and just being able to
be the hands and feet of Jesus.
And I think they were noticingthe difference in the way that

(37:44):
we approached suffering andgrief than them.
And we found that we actually,you know, most people think
Muslims are just very like Idon't know, radical or not at
all open.
What we learned though is thatthey are just very spiritual

(38:07):
people.
So for them, it is notnecessarily their religion only,
it's their identity.
And so everyone wears theirreligion on their sleeves, every
part of their life.

SPEAKER_05 (38:23):
Um which goes back to the where they identify all
Americans as Christian rappers,pop stars, movie stars, because
that's how it is in thatculture.
I assume that's how it is here.
We're a Christian society.
So it's our identity, even ifyou're a rapper.

SPEAKER_02 (38:44):
Yeah.
The five pillars, right?
One of which is obviouslyprayer.
Yeah.
And they have to pray pray atleast the five times a day.
And but their perspective ofChristianity, or Christians
broadly, not even just AmericanChristians, but just broadly,
they they saw Christianity asjust a very, you know,

(39:07):
non-serious religion.
We never pray.
Yeah, we never fast, which isanother pillar of faith in
Islam.
We never, you know, give alms.
We never um we might go tochurch, you know.
But for them, faith was uheverything.
For us, it's just sort of anaccessory.

(39:30):
An accessory, yeah, a categoryin life that we sort of put on
the hat for a minute and then wego on.
Which discovering that firsthandwas really liberating for us,
knowing that, okay, you know,here in the here in the US, we
go to church, we can be asspiritual as we want.
We walk up to somebody, oh, justlet me tell you what the Lord

(39:52):
has done in my life today, oryou know, oh, but it was just in
my prayer time, and you know,and we're excited, like, well,
depending on your church, Iguess.
But, you know, that's when weput on our spiritual hat.
Whereas they live it, breatheit, like Luna said, it's

(40:13):
everything.
And so what we discovered isit's easier to live our
Christianity, our spiritual lifeon the outside there than it is
here.
If I go up to someone inWalgreens or Walmart and I start
saying those kinds of things,they're gonna be like, get away
from me.
Uh-huh.
Like personal space, you know.

(40:35):
And in here where it's almostlike this unspoken rule that you
keep your faith private, it'syours, you know.
There, it's not that.
Like that, they find thatprobably one of the most
distasteful things aboutChristianity is that we aren't
serious about.
We don't pray.
We don't say, Praise God, youknow, in every breath, every

(40:58):
sentence just about it, thereyou're gonna hear, which is
praise God, or mashallah, whichis as God has willed, or
inshallah, God willing, youknow, all these things, all the
time.
Um, in fact, it's actuallyreally disrespectful, even for
Westerners come in and andcompliment something like, you

(41:21):
know, your child is sobeautiful.
Without saying mashallah, it'sso offensive.
Um so we, you know, the Lordshowed us that we can actually
harness that.
Yeah.
We learned that we could beopen, completely open with our
faith everywhere we went.
And it increased their level ofrespect for us and also made

(41:46):
them very, very intrigued.
Sure.

SPEAKER_05 (41:48):
So at that point then, are they, as you begin to
be open with your faith, they'rebecause there's a point in the
book where someone says, We knowwhy you're really here.
Was there a but was there a grayarea where they're going,
they're here to do microloansand to help our people, but

(42:08):
they're open with their faith.
But their faith is not whythey're here.
Was there so it sounds likethere was a point where you had
some you had a cushion of, yeah,you can just be speak freely as
a Christ follower who's tellingothers about your faith, and
there they didn't get theirhackles up, they didn't go, oh,
now I know why you're reallyhere.

(42:29):
You want to convert us.
It was more, oh, you're aChristian, we're Muslims, we
have conversation, our faith isour identity, it drives who we
are, and we see that you'rebringing good to this country,
and so there was a a seasonwhere there was growth because
of that, where they were sort ofaccepting it, but not
suspiciously.

SPEAKER_02 (42:51):
Well, I mean, and yeah, that comment actually came
from a government official thatStephen had become close friends
with.
Okay.
And he just basically said, Lookat that, look.
We know what's up.
We know why you're here.
Just please be careful becausewe want you here and we
appreciate what you're doing.
It was more of a warning for ourprotection.

SPEAKER_05 (43:13):
I see.

SPEAKER_02 (43:14):
And just also explaining like we're not your
problem.
Your problem are those that looklike everybody else.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (43:22):
Um Yeah, I was just gonna say it kind of goes back
to your other question aboutwhen you're in the when you're
running the training centers,are you presenting the gospel
through everything that you do,that kind of thing.
And so the reality is it isagainst the law to preach the
gospel.
You can't dissemble asChristians.
There's no church.
It's against the law to have achurch, to do any form of public

(43:43):
worship.
Um, and so it would also beagainst the law to try and
convert somebody.
And so you were highly beingwatched about that kind of
activity.
But you so you're running justyour humanitarian work.
Everything you're doing ishumanitarian and focus.
But because you're living outyour spirituality as you're
building relationships withpeople and you're having food

(44:05):
and tea in people's homes andyou're sharing what God is
speaking to you, and they startto ask questions because the way
you're describing a relationshipwith God is a very different
relationship than the way theywould describe theirs with
Allah.
And they're doing everythingthey can to make Allah happy,
but they don't have a give andtake relationship.
But as you're being very visiblewith your spirituality, they're

(44:26):
going, wow, that's different.
And so what why can you do that?
And who is Jesus?
And and so they're all supposedto respect this Jesus, but no
one's been told what he has whathe said or did.
So curiosity builds veryquickly.
So where that gospelconversation takes place is
usually in the home.
And over time, through thoserelationships and constant

(44:49):
conversation, people are comingto the Lord, but it never
happens in a visible setting.

SPEAKER_01 (44:53):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (44:54):
So this is why the backdrop of that statement of
this government official toStephen is we know what you're
doing, but make sure it doesn'tbecome visible.
Because at that point, we'regonna have a lot of problems.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, you had to becareful in that regard.

SPEAKER_05 (45:08):
There's uh, you know, here in southern
Appalachia, there's not a lot ofMuslims, you know.
There's not a lot of, I mean,there's not a lot of people of
other faith.
Uh, we we recently had aconverted evangelical Christian
on here who came out of the theLatter-day Saints, the Mormon

(45:28):
church.
And there's some Mormons.
We baptized a a family at ourchurch at Red Oak, um, whose son
got killed in a car wreck afterthat, and I got to preach his
funeral last year, and you know,just confident that, hey, this
man knows the Lord, you know.
And you don't, there's not alot.
It's very difficult, you know.

(45:49):
Our big mission field iscultural Bible belt
Christianity, you know.
But there's a family that runsthe meat processing facility
here.
And the guy that used to run itwas a local farmer.
He he runs cattle, and then hethey had a family business on
the side where they processedmeat.
Take your cow to them, take yourgoat to them, whatever, you

(46:11):
know.
A lot of people take deer whenthey kill them.
So I took a hog down there tohave it butchered, and there's a
new, this is 10 years ago.
There's a new guy there, andhe's he's dark skinned, he's got
an accent, and I said, Hey man,where are you from?
He's from he's from India, buthe grew up in Africa.
And and I said, Who do youworship?

(46:31):
And you know, and he he kind oflit up and grinned, and I said,
Come on, man, you can tell me.
I mean, the first time I evermet this guy, he said, I'm I'm
Muslim.
And I said, Wait a minute, uhyou're gonna butcher my pig for
me, you know.
So I start instantly startedribbing him like that's awesome.
You're the worst Muslim I know,Jacob.
You're butchering my pig for me,but you do make really good

(46:53):
sausage, you know.
So we get we got thisrelationship.
Well, we've become very goodfriends, like very good friends.
So he's one of five brothers.
Uh three of them work in the inthe company, and his wife is
going through cancer right now,and so I just went and visited
him two days ago.
But uh he has a brother namedSaid, and uh Rachel Sweezer, now

(47:18):
Fletcher, had uh do anassignment for school where she
had to.
Did you go with us?

SPEAKER_01 (47:23):
No, but I remember you guys talking about it.

SPEAKER_05 (47:25):
She had to interview somebody from a different faith.
Well, it's very difficult tofind that around here, you know.
And so I took her down there andI called Saeed, the brother, and
said, I want to bring a younglady to interview you.
Just have a conversation.
So we go on there, and he, Imean, we talked for a couple

(47:45):
hours, and he was really tryingto disrupt her belief system,
you know, and it was fun.
We we laughed and had greatinteraction.
Um and I've I've shared the goodnews of Jesus with them, with
everybody in that familyextensively, you know.
But Saeed died about two monthsago.

(48:06):
Um, he was back in India.
He he had taken a wife fromsomewhere in India and he had
gone back to get her to bringher.
And while he was there, he had aI think he had a heart attack.
Wow.
We don't know, there's noautopsy.
And hit that dude's he's he's myage, yeah, maybe younger than
me.
But it's really sobering.
But also knowing that we had hadgospel conversation, I'd shared

(48:32):
the good news, you know.
It's like I'm so glad we hadthat conversation.
I'm so so glad because I'dshared with the other brother a
lot who's who runs the place.
But anyway, I bring that storyup just to say to people
listening, even now, Americansare very suspicious of Muslims.

(48:54):
Yeah, but some of the sweetestrelationships I have in this
community is with this oneextended family of Muslims, you
know, the best people.

SPEAKER_03 (49:03):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (49:03):
Went down there.
I went down there two days ago,just stopped in to check on
Shinny because she's havingchemo, and she sent me away with
a ribeye steak and some summersausage for Mo.
They know Mo loves their summersauce.
They're just the mosthospitable.
I try to go by there when I knowthey're having tea.
I love their tea.
Oh, yeah.
Sit and visit.
But anyway, it's it's good.

(49:26):
I think it's good for ourlisteners to hear the real
relational component to thisbecause we do have these
suspicious sort of we think ofthe we think of Muhammad Atta,
the guy that flew the oneairplane into the World Trade
Center.
That's Muslim, boom, that'swhere you go.
You know, Alzar Karawi, boom,that's where you go.

(49:47):
Bin Laden, boom, that's whereyou go.
And there's people, good people.

SPEAKER_01 (49:52):
Yeah.
I in college, I had a lot of umESL classes, English, second
language, and a lot of umIslamic Muslim people came to my
college to take those classes tothen teach English to their
family.
And so I was like the only whiteperson in all these classes, but
I loved them and they were sofun.

(50:13):
And I remember I was paired withone of my partners, and he was a
dad, had four kids, his wife,they just moved.
I can't, I think Saudi Arabia, Ithink is way where they were
from.
And I remember him telling me,he was like, Americans have a
view of Muslims, but like wecould have the same view of

(50:34):
Americans.
Like, he used the example of themovie American Psycho, and he
was like, We don't think everyAmerican is uh has a AK 47 and
kills people and is crazy.
And he was like, So don't thinkthat about us.
I was like, Man, that was reallywell put, but I love them.
They so hospitable.
I went over and hung out withtheir kids, and yeah, it was

(50:54):
awesome.
Love those classes.

SPEAKER_00 (50:57):
Yeah, I think I think quickly you'd begin to
discover there's really likethree types of Muslims.
There's the the majority ofMuslims, I would say probably
80%, I don't know, are just aMuslim who is just trying really
hard to make God happy.
And they're and they all havedifferent cultures because the
Muslim world is all over theworld.
So they're living within theircultures, most of them very

(51:18):
hospitable and living out theirculture, but their whole life is
governed around, I just want todo the right thing.
I just want to make God happy.
I just want to, you know, sothat they have some hope of God
smiling on them.
And God is very fickle and youknow, hard to know.
The other, the other Muslim uhis a smaller percentage, maybe

(51:39):
only 10%.
And that's the guy who alsoreally wants to make God happy,
but is convinced the only way todo that is a very radical,
radical form.
So they're militant because theythink that's also the only way
to make God happy.
And they look down on all theother Muslims who aren't radical
enough.
And you could see this in everyculture, even in America.
We have radicalized people whothink the only way, you know,

(52:00):
the only form of Christianity isto be militant.
But so that's a smallpercentage, only that's the
percentage we typically getportrayed about Islam.
There is a growing otherpercentage of Muslims.
The third one is the one that Ijust call a disillusioned
Muslim.
He's a Muslim by identity, hewas born a Muslim, but he's

(52:21):
really becoming secular, hedoesn't really know if God even
really exists, and he's startingto doubt it.
And there's a new form ofatheism within Islam.
They're high-identity Muslims,but they kind of think probably
maybe he's not even reallythere.
And that's a growing number.
But the reality is most of themare highly hospitable.
Yeah.
So it was easy.

(52:42):
It's easy to build friendships.
It's not always easy to get thegospel sewn into the
conversation, but it's easy tomove in that direction.
And you know, we found that tobe the case.

SPEAKER_05 (52:57):
So all right, so then we're in the story, in
y'all's story, uh, we're at apoint where you're really
getting some traction now.
Uh with with this incentivizedloan program, people are coming
really trying to be productiveso they can get that second loan
to expand their business, and soyou're getting a lot of

(53:18):
traction.
So then from there.

SPEAKER_02 (53:21):
Yeah, and so that was really picking up a lot
about the same time that thoseFrench tourists were killed.
And we found ourselves sort ofat a crossroads.
Do we go or do we stay?
Recognizing that the risk ismuch higher, really real.

(53:43):
You know, when you're at whenyou've when you sort of make
yourself at home in a culturelike that, you just it's not
something you even consider somuch because you're just so
warmly welcomed and and they'rewonderful hosts.
Um but when that happened, yeah,we were we were at a point where
it's like, okay, we havechildren, should we, should we

(54:05):
go?
Should we also be going?
But and we prayed, but we justdidn't feel a piece about going.
And but we did feel like theLord gave us the choice.
Like we could we felt like wecould actually leave and still
be on God's good side.
Yeah.
Still be obedient.

(54:25):
Yeah.
Um but the alternative just wasso much more compelling to stay.
And that was reinforced everytime the believers were coming
to us and saying, Are you gonnaleave us too?
Are you also leaving?
What are we gonna do?
And that made us realize, wow,okay, we're passport American

(54:48):
passport holding Christians whohave a way out, and these guys
don't, and they really arecounting the cost.
And we just did not feel a peaceat all about going.
Um, and so we just decided tostay.

(55:08):
Of course, we were trying to becautious and not make ourselves
too visible, which is so hardwhen you're among the few white
people left.
But um, yeah, and at that point,Steven was um we always had a
great relationship with the U.S.
Embassy.
Um, and it by then, I thinkbecause there were so few

(55:31):
Americans left in the city, theyhad asked Stephen to consider
being a warden.
So, in other words, if somecrisis happens, our home would
be like the safe house, like allAmericans would come to us and
the embassy would come and getus.
Like they would send in oursecurity officers.
And so he, but because of that,he was getting fed all the

(55:56):
updates all the time, all theintelligence.
You know, well, there's thisrisk, or you know, there's this
rumor going around, or you know,these planned threats, these
planned um I I don't rememberexactly what they were
specifically, but the threatswere becoming a lot more
evident.

(56:18):
And so I'm amazed that he juststill it didn't push him into
any kind of corner of fear.
Instead, he like became so bold.
He'd always been bold, but hewas at the point where he
realized if I get out of thistaxi and this person never knows

(56:41):
Jesus, never has heard thetruth, that's on me.
Kind of like your your friendSaeed.
You know, what if he had gone toIndia and you hadn't yet shared
the gospel with him?
That'd be on you.
Yeah.
And so that's kind of whereStephen was at.
Like he was just he's he wasovercome by a sense of urgency,

(57:04):
but paradoxically an unusualpeace as well.
And so it was around that timethat we realized, you know, the
risk is heightened, we're here,we're just gonna pray, you know,
but we were in we were in harm'sway.
Um didn't know exactly how muchor how likely.

(57:25):
So we were, you know, doing ourBible studies with our kids at
night.
We would spend time praying andand studying together.
And and Stephen would say thingslike, guys, we have to and he
would just reiterate like theimportance of living your faith
and living it while you can andtaking the risk for the sake of

(57:48):
the gospel, and that, you know.
Um but being cautious, obviouslynot being you know, ridiculously
um uncautious, but to becautious, but doing the Lord's
will at the same time.
And we had teammates that werestill there that were actually
trying to distance themselvesfrom us because yeah, because he

(58:12):
was they learned okay, he'sgiving, you know, back in the
1900s, we still had cassettes.
But these taxi drivers weredriving these, you know, old,
old Mercedes from Europe thathad like 600,000 kilometers on
them.
And it's like they always had acassette player, so we had our
cassettes, and he would justmake sure every taximan had that

(58:35):
cassette of the Jesus film orthe portion of scripture that
was translated in theirlanguage.
Um, and so yeah, that reallyintimidated a lot of our not a
lot.
We know we didn't have a lot ofteammates left at that point,
but yeah, they were reallyconcerned.
Um, and so just sort of kepttheir distance.

(58:58):
Yeah, but it was at that pointthat we started seeing the most
fruit.
It's like it's amazing when youactually start sowing, things
start producing.
And so it came to a point thoughthat um I started noticing that
Stephen was a little bitpreoccupied.
And I think he probably receiveda a threat or a message

(59:22):
indicating threat.
Um and but he still had such apeace about him.
And on that day, you know, hehad gone to the training center
early.
He we had a carpool with some ofthe other um a couple of other

(59:43):
workers.
Children went to the Frenchschool with our youngest
daughter, and he it was hiscarpool day, so he took off,
dropped them off, and um arrivedat the training center early.
Um so the mosque, the oldestmosque in the city, actually,
across the street, had alreadyhad.
Their morning prayers, so thatwas vacant, and then the shops

(01:00:03):
in the area weren't open yet,and there was just this butcher
there preparing his meat for theday.
And um, when Steven arrived,there were a couple of guys
sitting in a car waiting forhim, and um so from what we
understand, they had beenfollowing him, even like
monitoring our house andmovement, and so they were there

(01:00:28):
to kidnap him, but he was a bigguy, and these were young, just
small young Arab men, and umthey weren't able to apprehend
him, and so he was just reallyholding them off when one of
them pulled a pistol out of hisum his local clothing, which has

(01:00:54):
a really big pocket on thefront, and he pulled out the gun
and shot him three times.
Um and so I get a knock at thedoor just a little later, and I
was there with my kids, theolder three, and and it's a
teammate of ours who istypically not very an emotional

(01:01:16):
person.
She's from Scandinavia.
I don't think that's an excuse,but um, she was there, her
husband was also named Stephen,and we knew he had been
traveling, doing consulting inanother part of the country, and
we were praying for his safety.
So she came to the door and shewas crying, and I'm like, what's

(01:01:39):
wrong?
you know, and so she just sortof takes me by the arm and takes
me into our living area and umtells me that something has
happened and Stephen's beenshot.
And I immediately try to comforther.
And then she just said, No, notmy Stephen, your Stephen's been
shot, and he's dead.

(01:01:59):
And just I can't describe theamount of grace there is in the
shock factor.
You know, when we hear that kindof news, there is shock.
Like there's literally somethingphysical that happens, but I
believe it's the grace of God.
I just had clarity of mind, andum, you know, okay, so we gotta
do this, we gotta do that.
Um I won't go into all thosedetails, those are in the book.

(01:02:23):
Um, but the grace of God was soreal and so tangible, not just
on me, but on my kids too.
And it's crazy, it's somethingthat we knew was possible.
We always prayed that itwouldn't have to come to that,
but it did, and just yeah.

(01:02:44):
The Lord um the Lord reallyhelped me come to a point of
validation, I would say, inlosing Stephen like that.
Validation in that there'smeaning and there's a purpose of

(01:03:05):
why the Lord allowed that tohappen.
I had no idea what that would beat that point.
I forgave the guystheoretically, you know, our
family did.
When we got back to the USwithin, you know, 72 hours.
We made a public statementknowing that, you know, we all
know how new sources are.
They start just filling outblanks themselves.

(01:03:28):
We didn't want things to just bemisconstrued.
So we made a public statement ofyou know, our forgiveness for
these guys, um, our faith in thecountry's justice system to
bring about justice, um, butalso our solidarity and our our
love for the people.
And we didn't know at that pointhow powerful that would be.

(01:03:51):
But it's still I still see fruitfrom that today when we go back.
So um many things the Lord hasdone and continues to do through
that.
I feel very, very humbled to beable to witness things that He
has done.

(01:04:11):
Maybe not so much in spite ofthat sacrifice, but through it,
you know.
And um yeah, it's just amazing.
We've been able to go back.
Um initially the kids and I wentback um once or twice a year

(01:04:32):
just to see people and be ableto continue.
We really were wanting tocontinue the work that we had
started and um to see thingscontinue.
And the government officialsthemselves had approached me.
I mean, like literally withinfour hours of being told that my
husband had been shot down, theywere in that living room of this
place we'd have been evacuatedto um fighting tears, but

(01:04:57):
actually practically begging menot to allow his work to to die
as well.
And asked that we would continuecoming and serving their people
and helping their people.
And so, yeah, um now it's beenyears later, and every time we
go back, it's just incredible tosee.

(01:05:19):
Like for hear things that wedidn't know or didn't see, and
just yeah, it's reallyinspiring.
My kids have all, again, they'vegone back several times, still
love the country.
Um, my father-in-law, um, myin-laws, Stephen's parents would
come see us a couple of times ayear, which was such a blessing.
I mean, the kids so enjoyedhaving the grandparents, I so

(01:05:43):
enjoyed having the peanut butterand you know, chocolate chips
and that kind of thing.
But um, but they were alwaysjust there for our kids and us,
you know, just to visit.
And we loved that.
We were so grateful.
But after Stephen's death, myfather-in-law picked up a baton

(01:06:03):
and has been amazing atspearheading the continuation
and even expanding the legacythat that Stephen left behind.
Wow.
So he was actually, I think likea year and a half ago, given the
highest honor of merit by thepresident of the country.

(01:06:24):
Wow.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:25):
Wow.
I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:28):
That is so cool, yeah.
That's also so amazing, like yousaid, God's grace.
Because it it would be so easyto be so bitter and just shut
down and even say, I'm not goingback ever.
And like just the strength thatthe Lord has given your in-laws

(01:06:49):
and your family and your kidsand you, and that's amazing.
Like, that's hard for my brainto fathom, you know.
Mine too.
Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:58):
Is it Jimmy?
So the oldest daughter, Hadi,was on staff here.
She was your counselor, wasn'tshe?

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:05):
So she worked with our church, she worked with my
sister's court.
Okay.
She wasn't my counselor, but mymom came as a chaperone and
rolled up and saw our counselorhad a kid and was like, I think
it was like one of the firstyears we came to Snowbird.
My mom was already a little bitskeptical, and she was like, Oh
my gosh, what's going on?
Where are we right now?

(01:07:26):
And but her and Heidi got veryclose that week.
And um, my mom was blown away.
She shared your family story.
Um, my mom immediately wenthome, got your book, read it,
and she's still close Facebookfriends with Heidi.
Bought a cake from her recently.
She has a little cake business,but my mom, I told her, I was

(01:07:46):
like, Yeah, we're interviewingEmily.
And my mom got so excited.
She was like, Oh my goodness.
But yeah, even that um has beenreally cool.
Like, you've impacted my family,and we haven't even met.
This is our first time meeting,so that's super encouraging.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
JB was supposed to be on arecruiting trip this week for
Snowbird.
And I said, uh, we talked lastweek, and she did she didn't
have our dates were crossed up.
She said, wait, I'm gonna missthe Emily interview.
So anyway, needless to say, shestayed.
She didn't go on the trip.
So glad you did.

(01:08:23):
So cool.
Let's uh let's take a break.
Yeah.
And I think it's a good place toto pick back up.
We'll stop there.
We took a break with them andand got some coffee and and uh
and and just stretched our legs.
It was it's heavy.
The stuff that that uh we'reworking through is heavy, but
I'm excited for the next episodebecause there's some things,

(01:08:46):
everything to this point in thestory I was very familiar with.
But what has happened in thelast few years um in the lives
of the people in in that placeand specifically with Lewis and
Emily, pretty pretty shocking.
The the second uh episode ofthis is is gonna just blow your

(01:09:09):
mind.
It's one of the most rivetingstories.
There, there's a couple ofscenes in their story that are
so riveting.
I mean, I I I've thought aboutit.
It's been a few a couple weeksnow since we recorded, and I was
just literally so captivated bythe story.
I've continued to think aboutit.
But anyway, excited for y'all tohear that.
Um praise the Lord for hisfaithfulness in their lives.

(01:09:30):
Talk about putting your hand tothe plow and not looking back.
They've done it.
They have done it.
And Lewis, what a humble dude towalk into the shadow in the
footsteps of a man like Stephenum, Stephen Foreman.
That's a guy.
Lewis is a guy that is so secureabout who he is in Christ and of
his calling.

(01:09:50):
And I'll tell you, as you'llhear in the next uh episode,
Lewis has now picked up themantle of of the work to be done
there.
He and Emily back doing thatwork.
Um and I I just I'm humbled.
I feel like there are going tobe times in your life where
you're in the presence of peoplewhere you think these are giants

(01:10:11):
of the faith.
I mean, they're giants.
And Lewis and Emily Foreman areuh they're inspiring.
They have counted the cost, andthey have paid the ultimate cost
in the death of loved ones.
And the the mission, the missionof the good news reaching the

(01:10:31):
unreached, has cost them dearly,and and they're still laboring.
Um Paul says to the Colossians,um, Him we proclaim, warning
everyone and teaching everyone,um with all the and he uses the
word toil.
I don't remember straining andtoiling with all the energy that
he works and supplies in us.

(01:10:52):
So it's this hard work and laborto proclaim the gospel and and
to get the good news to people,and they're doing it.
And I'm just I'm blessed to knowthem.
I love them dearly and excitedto spend some time with them
over this next year beforethey're back in in North Africa.
So um just a reminder, the thebook, Emily's book, is linked um

(01:11:15):
in the in the um show notes.
And so check that out, and Ithink you'll find the book very
captivating.
Uh, I read it, I've been throughit twice now.
Um, yeah, it's amazing.
So thank you.
Hope you're encouraged, hope itencourages you to put your hand
to the plow, don't look back,take the sword of the spirit,
which is the word of God, and dothe spiritual battle of um

(01:11:38):
fighting for your own holinessand then uh working to see that
others know who Jesus is.
And that this story definitelymotivates me to do that and to
do it better.
Um y'all hang in there, have anawesome week, and we'll see you
in the next episode.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:57):
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