September 10, 2025 • 45 mins
When Josh Haskell left Mormonism, he discovered the true God of the Bible was nothing like the one he'd grown up with. Now a Christian educator, Josh reveals how Mormonism uses Christian terms—like “Jesus,” “grace,” and “God”—but redefines them completely.
He shares the moment Isaiah 6 shattered his view of God: “The God I worship isn’t holy—he’s just an exalted man.” From becoming gods to baptisms for the dead, a works-based salvation, and idolizing Joseph Smith, Josh exposes the key differences between Mormonism and true Christianity.
His story is both a warning about deceptive theology and a powerful testimony of God’s truth. You do not want to miss this two part series!
Please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help improve No Sanity Required and help others grow in their faith.
Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome back to NSR.
This will be a two-part series.
Me and Brody sat down with JoshHaskell, who now works with a
Christian school that ispartnered with Snowbird, and
they come we offer Christianschool retreats.
So he was in town this weekendfor a retreat and so we sat down
(00:21):
with him.
But he's also worked onSnowbird Summer Staff and worked
with Old School, which is anold program that we used to run
for years.
His last summer was 2021, but wesat down with him because he
has such an interesting andencouraging story story.
(00:50):
I won't spoil it all, but hegrew up very devout Mormon in a
Mormon household and so he justkind of shared we just got to
pick his brain on you know, whatdo Mormons believe and major
differences between Christianityand Mormonism, and then he just
really got into how the Lord'swill and God's sovereignty just
brought him out and now he isteaching the Bible at a
(01:12):
Christian school, which is justso crazy, thank the Lord.
I thank the Lord for his storyand just for his willingness to
share his story on NSR.
But yeah, this is going to be atwo-part series.
I feel like we could havetalked for another two hours, so
we'll break this up, but thankyou guys so much for watching
(01:33):
and welcome to NSR.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of
Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters.
A podcast about the Bible,culture and stories from around
the globe.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
So I'd like to start off by just saying Josh doesn't
need to be welcomed, becausehe's one of us.
He served here.
How long did you serve here insome capacity?
Speaker 4 (02:07):
My first summer was 2012, and then off and on, maybe
eight summers.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, so eight years, connected to old school, at one
point interned, worked, workedin various jobs and so
longstanding relationship withJosh and I've wanted to tell
Josh's story for a long time onNSR.
But I wanted to be able to sitdown and do it in an, in an non
(02:31):
compressed way, and I didn'twant.
I don't like doing zoominterviews or I don't like the
ear pods, airpods and the camera, and I want to be in the same
space in these interviews.
I'm not criticizing anybodyelse that does it, but I need it
to be visceral, cerebral and Iwant to interact with this in
(02:51):
person.
And so we've waited until nowbecause I wanted it to be right.
The feedback we got from myinterview with John Pollock, who
came out of the Catholic church, was the feedback was
phenomenal and you get a lot offeedback as well.
Both JB and I got a lot offeedback from that.
Um, I don't know if you had achance to listen to that, but I
(03:12):
think you would really enjoy it.
Um, and I want to get you twotogether at some point, just
because you're both veryintelligent, very articulate and
um, you have differentperspectives on the Christian
gospel and so, but sameperspective, different
background perspectives.
You know, um, and and uh, thefeedback was so good, I was like
now's the time I want to get, Iwant to get Josh on here.
(03:34):
So Josh is uh, uh, here thisweek, uh, with a group from his
school where he he he's part ofa school that's here this week
leads, um, he's now in theeducation side of Christian
ministry, so we're just going todive in.
I've asked JB to prepare somequestions and we'll just sort of
dialogue through how Joshanswers these questions.
(03:57):
I just want you to have freedomto run with this and speak
candidly.
There's going to be some hardconversation where we talk about
josh's family, what this hasdone, his, his leaving the
mormon church and entering intoa relationship with christ, um,
what that's done to familyrelationships, the strain and
(04:18):
stress that's put on thoserelationships, and so we'll get
into all that.
So, um, jebby, why't you, whydon't you just start us off and
uh, and we'll get it rollingthat way.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, so Josh grew up Mormon and I actually didn't
know that.
So I'm super excited to justhear your story and hear how the
Lord has worked through you.
But I kind of wanted to openwith some questions for you
about, like, the differencesbetween Mormonism and
Christianity and one I thinkMormon Mormonism, I guess is
(04:51):
trending in some ways.
Like have you ever heard of theshow Secret Life of Mormon
Wives?
I've heard of it, yes, so likethere's like random shows and
like on TikTok or Instagram, Ijust see a lot of people like
trending who are associated withlike LDS and Mormon and stuff
like that, and so that kind ofbrings a lot of questions to me.
(05:12):
I remember a few months ago Isent Brody a voice message about
something about Mormon and hewas like we should just do an
episode on it.
But kind of fast forwarding, wehad a couple guys, intern guys,
that had a different religionclass or something where they
had to explore differentreligions, and they went to the
Mormon Church in Murphy and theycame back and they were like
(05:39):
man, it was kind of weirdbecause it was like fairly
normal, like we were kind ofexpecting some like super
cultish experiment, likewhatever, but they were like no,
it's fairly normal.
And like if we didn't know, wewould have thought, oh, this is
just a Christian church, this isjust a regular church.
And so for you, I just kind ofwanted, if you can, articulate
ways that like they might looksimilar like Christianity and
(06:02):
Mormonism and maybe like themajor differences if that makes
sense In the vein of becausethey look similar.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
That's why it's so dangerous, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Um, let me first say you know the trending thing to
say that's totally purposeful ontheir part.
Um, if Brody probably remembersthis, but like 16 years ago
they had commercials and it waslike some girl in Hawaii.
He's like just saying, justlike going through a normal life
(06:34):
, I like surfing, I like hangingout with my friends, I like
doing this or that.
And then just the last word wasI'm Kaylee or whatever, and I'm
a Mormon.
And that was the whole whole.
That was a commercial and itwas like normalizing, because
they did have a stigma for along time of being quite strange
and so they were trying tonormalize.
Uh, who normalized their reviewto the, to average person?
(06:59):
And then I think the shows,even though they don't always
paint Mormonism in a good light,they are still getting
attention.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
And they're a very evangelical group as far as
getting their people out, theirmessage out.
Even if you go on FacebookMarketplace, I've noticed this.
Maybe it's just because I'mMormon, I'll see it, but I'll
see free Bible and free biblewith a conversation and it's
like they're posting stuff onfacebook marketplace.
(07:30):
I've seen stuff it's like freecup, just to like, get your
attention, and then it's youknow, free cup with the with the
bible, and then the nextpicture is them with their you
know, lds badge on um.
So they're.
It's definitely purposeful thatif they are trending, they've
got young people influences,influencers that are working for
them to try to reach theculture very specifically, um,
(07:53):
and then, as far as it lookingnormal, uh, but being dark
shouldn't surprise any christian.
I mean, john tells us satanposes as an angel of light, like
, and that that is so true ofevery cult they are.
They are trying to hide the,the, you know as jesus calls the
(08:15):
, the pharisees, whitewashedtombs.
They are trying to hide thegross, disgusting things that
are actually inside the church.
And so you know, for David andand that friend that went, if
you went to a church service, ifyou were raised Baptist, it
would probably feel veryfamiliar to you, especially if
(08:36):
you were raised in the fundyBaptist, um, the, the pews are
the same, no-transcript the1820s, you'll still notice
(09:15):
similar language now.
So a very popular phrase, notused as much anymore.
It's just like the, uh, theplan of salvation.
That phrase is used for peoplepreaching the gospel, not as
much anymore.
We'll just, you know, saypreaching the gospel.
I took them down Romans road,but the plan of salvation was a
very popular turn of phrase andso they have like this drawing I
(09:37):
remember as a kid of, and wewere talking beforehand about.
You know what happens afterdeath?
They'll start with what theycall the premortal existence of.
We all existed beforehand andwe came down to earth to get a
body and then we're gonna getone of these kingdoms, um and so
, but they'll call it the planof salvation and we can get into
(09:58):
different doctrines, butthey're even they're changing it
as as, as the, as the years goby, and this is why they always
seem normal, and this is, Iguess, the beauty of having a
made up religion is, you canalways change to adapt the
culture and so their doctrine.
Now, versus even 50 years ago,black people weren't allowed to
(10:20):
be in positions of authority andthey had a revelation that
changed that.
Um, and you read the book ofmormon from, you know the
original edition.
Versus now, it's all verydifferent.
Um, so, as far as what, whatenables them to hide in plain
(10:42):
sight is that ability andthey're really good at it taking
all of the language that we useand changing the meaning, using
the same words, but changingthe meaning of those words.
And so, um, cultish talks aboutthis a lot their podcast that
(11:03):
words have words have meanings.
Um, and that's a very powerfultool of a cult.
The most powerful one and thisis what pulled me out is what,
what?
Who is God?
What is, what is the nature ofGod?
And specifically, what doChristians mean?
What does the Bible mean whenit says Jesus is God?
(11:26):
Like that, that phrase istheologically rich, it's the
basis of our faith as Christians.
And you ask a Mormon do youthink Jesus is God?
They will say yes, and in theirminds they're not lying through
their teeth.
Right Now they don't mean thesame thing that we mean at all,
(11:49):
but they have.
The church has changed themeaning of those words and in
their plan of, and they changedthat plan of salvation to the
plan of happiness becausesalvation there's no concept of
salvation in Mormonism, but theyhave.
The plan is we all become gods.
The plan is we all become gods.
(12:09):
And so they've got no mentalblock thinking.
I'm being dishonest if I'mtelling this person Jesus is God
.
I do believe.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Jesus is God.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
But so will I.
And really all of Mormonism,really all man-made religions,
are a undeifying of God.
You know, that's straight fromRomans, when they knew God,
didn't honor him as God, insteadworshiped him as the creator.
And all these man-madereligions are taking God off the
throne and putting man thereinstead, and so they have used
(12:47):
tricky language to be able tofit in.
You can have a normal if youdon't say expressly what you
mean.
You can have a normalconversation with a Mormon and,
for that matter, Seventh-dayAdventist Jehovah Witness, you
can have a normal conversation.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And think we're on the same team.
We believe the same thing.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
If you don't know their buzzwords, then then would
you agree if for somebodythat's like, okay, I have a
friend who's a Mormon and I cannever get past them saying we're
the same, what are thequestions you would?
Just that you would ask thatwould like?
Okay, at this point there's aline in the sand for them to
answer this question yeahthere's no way around.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
There's no way around it yeah me, I'm a I'm a pretty
aggressive person as far as whenit gets to the gospel.
So I mean, there's tons ofstuff you could talk about just
the bible and like its authority, because they've got the book
of mormon and, uh, you couldtalk about different minor
doctrines and they love actuallyfor you to get caught up in
(13:54):
that stuff.
They've got those answers ready.
But I just go straight forjesus being god person of jesus,
personhood, christology.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
yeah, has it okay?
You say he's god.
Do you believe he's always beenand always has been, one with
the father and always has been,has been God Absolutely?
Yeah, that's the question youwould ask I go to.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
we need need to define who God is.
There's one God, you knowthere's one guy, cause they
really are polytheistic.
They they wouldn't.
Maybe, depending on the Mormonyou talk to, they might say they
are or not, but they arepolytheistic.
They believe in an infinitenumber of gods, like, even more
than the Hindus, because everysingle human that has lived and
(14:35):
has obeyed the laws andordinances of the gospel that's
one of their phrases is going tobe a God.
And they believe that the Godthat they worship, that he was
once a man on his own planet,just like us, and that he earned
his position and so dideveryone else that was living on
(14:58):
his planet and he had a God,and so it goes on and on forever
, and they call it the doctrineof eternal progression.
So they believe I mean it'sstraight, I mean most important
doctrine, who is God?
And so I go straight for that.
There is one God.
He's like you said, he'seternal, he's holy, and actually
, you know, we can get into thisa little bit.
(15:20):
When I first came to Snowbird asa Mormon with a friend, the one
of the big things for me is youpreached Isaiah six and and you
are a really good storytellerand you can paint a vivid word
picture.
And I was listening to Isaiah 6, and I saw in my mind's eye for
(15:44):
the first time ever, the gloryand majesty and holiness of the
God of the Bible, and Iliterally like, said in my head
that's not the God I worship.
Like.
The God I worship is not holy,he's like he's an exalted man.
That's the word.
Though he's like me, and so Igo.
(16:05):
I go straight for who God is,and then Jesus is God.
So I go straight for who God is, and then Jesus is God.
So I go straight to the Trinity.
I spend a lot of time in theGospel of John whenever I'm
sharing the gospel with a Mormon, colossians.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Colossians 1.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
You really get into his and Hebrews 1.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
And Hebrews 1 is really good.
Yeah, those characteristics.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Because, even specifically in Hebrews, when he
starts saying and you need toknow Mormon doctrine to get why
it's so powerful but becausethey believe that we were all in
heaven before, they think weare angels.
And some people, even I'd saythe Christians, think that too.
Where they take that passagewhere Jesus says that there
(16:49):
won't be marriage in heaven, inheaven they are like angels.
Some people interpret that tosay that we are angels.
But the mormons, they think wewere angels beforehand.
And, uh, angels are eitherpeople who are not gotten the
body yet or they've died.
And so when it says in hebrewsthat he's greater than the
angels, that he's greater thanthe prophets, that he's greater
(17:11):
than the angels, that he'sgreater than the prophets, that
he's greater than Moses, theydon't want to have a category of
Jesus actually being higherthan us.
They want him to be literallyand they call him an elder
brother, like he's above us, inthe way that an elder brother is
above us, he has the samenature as us.
If you have a brother, he hasthe same nature as us.
If you have a brother, he hasthe same nature of you, the same
(17:32):
parents, and he might have a,you know, in your family dynamic
.
He might have a position ofauthority or honor, but in
essence he's not better than you, he's just.
He's just got a different roleand that's what they want.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Would they like worship God in the same sense
Like do you got, do you?
Would you say that Mormonsworship like Joseph Smith?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Um, they definitely wouldn't say that and I don't
know if I would say they worshiphim.
Maybe revere that might meanthe same thing, but they hold
him in a very reverent regard.
Yeah, it'd kind of be a similarconversation with the catholic
stuff.
It'd kind of be a you'd have asimilar conversation with a
(18:16):
mormon about joseph smith, asthey might, as a catholic might,
have about mary, like theywould deny that they worship
mary or saints and I mean theydon't pray to joseph smith but
they, they, have the highestrespect for him.
Brigham young, I think, is theone who said no man has done
more for the church than josephsmith and he he included jesus
(18:40):
christ as as like a man thatjoseph smith did more than for
the church, which is just wild.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Can we rabbit trail for one second?
Don't let me get completely offtrack here.
Okay, I watched a documentaryand I don't know how accurate it
was that Brigham Young wasextremely violent and militant.
That when they moved becausethey migrated from Pacific I
mean from Eastern Seaboard NewEngland and migrated out west
(19:14):
under persecution on this sideof the country, went out there
to establish some autonomy andthat's how they ended up in such
a vast expanse of that area isunder sort of Mormon rule, but
that it was a militant takeover.
They fought Native Americans,they fought the army, they
fought settlers.
Like is that is there?
Speaker 4 (19:33):
is that true?
Oh yeah, absolutely they.
Brigham Young especially.
He gets um.
More recently, like when I wasbeing raised, brigham Young was
a hero.
But when people started doinghistory into the Mormon church
and things are coming to light,um, a lot of.
If you talk to maybe not if youtalk to like the leaders in the
(19:54):
Mormon church, but if you talkto a Mormon, a lot of times
they're pretty apologetic aboutBrigham Young specifically.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Oh, um, not as an apologetic.
Like they, they feel sorry that, like they have they're like,
yeah, Brigham Young.
Okay sorry, but like they have,they're like, yeah, brigham
young, okay okay, because Iwatched this show.
I'm not going to name it.
People listening that saw itwill know what it is.
I watched it by myself.
It was like a five-part netflixor prime or something like that
.
I watched it last, uh, spring.
(20:22):
It's a dramatization of brighamyoung.
Brigham young and the westwardexpansion and it and it brings
sort of three things into playwar with the Native Americans
and war with the army andsettlers and it makes him out.
I mean that dude, it was likemore violent than Viking lore,
(20:45):
you know, like they'rebutchering people and killing
people to claim and establishtheir lands.
And that's when I went into adeep dive because I never heard
any of that.
I just thought he was kind of awacko cult leader.
But most cult leaders eitherbecome very violent and or very
sexual.
Yes, so it makes sense thatthey did both.
There's always going to be sex,sexual perversion, so polygamy
(21:07):
check makes sense and I knowmainstream Mormons in the East
here don't practice that, butit's always going to be sexually
perverse.
There's always going to be somedegree of violence to grow and
expand the brand.
And so Brigham Young seemed tohave been a guy that really took
those to the extremes.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
Yeah, on that, I am always seeing similarities
between Mormonism and Islam.
And even Brigham Young, josephSmith, was violent himself, and
even there's like one thing thatI might go through with a
Mormon is the prophet test inthe Old Testament where it says
(21:49):
um, god is giving the, theisraelites, a command, uh and a,
and a good word to test aprophet.
He says you know, if they, ifthey say that they are speaking
from god and then they foretella future event and it doesn't
come true, stone them, they'refalse prophet like they're not
(22:09):
speaking for god, because godknows everything, he doesn't lie
.
And then also, interestinglyenough, he says if they foretell
an event, and it comes true,because you know they're demons,
that you know the, the demonpossessed girl that was
following paul, told the futureand she, accurately, was talking
about paul.
If they, if they foretell thefuture and it comes true, but
(22:30):
they say let's go worship adifferent god, stone them.
You know they're, they're not,obviously not from god.
And so a very powerful proof isto just look at justice smith's
prophecies and they've got abook of them they call the
doctrine and covenants, and alot of them are so vague, or
their rules, not really prophecy, it's just saying he's speaking
(22:52):
from God and he's saying, ohhey, we're not allowed to drink
coffee or smoke tobacco.
But some of them are absolutelypredictions of the future, and
one of them, in this aggressivevein this is what made me think
of it is he was pretty much atwar with the american government
(23:13):
and they were taking their landuh, you know, for good reason.
And he said if they don't giveus back this land I'd have to
look up exactly the wording butif they don't give us back this
land, then america is going tobe destroyed, annihilated.
And then they didn't give themback the land and they kept
having to move westward.
(23:34):
And america's still here today,we're, we're still a nation.
So they were definitely at war.
Um, they, they, they'lldefinitely play the victim card
for all of everything that wenton, with joseph smith and
brigham young saying we tried tolive here peaceably and they
just hated us because we weredifferent.
And there there might've beensome of that.
(23:54):
Um, there's always zeal umthere, but there was definitely
violence, um, on both sides ofwherever they went.
There's even a famous massacrethat the Mormons committed
that's what that movie portrayed.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Okay, that series.
It portrays that massacre.
Yeah and amen.
They portray it brutally, like125 people or something.
There's a big number of women,children, yeah, I didn't know
that yeah, and so how like sowhen you're growing up in the
mormon church?
Now you're not being taught.
Everything's being taughtthrough a filter or a lens, I'm
(24:32):
assuming whereas let me make thecomparison we do not filter
when we teach the old testament,the new covenant.
The new covenant under christbrings in uh, clarity to the old
covenant.
If jesus said I didn't come toabolish that, but I came to
(24:52):
fulfill it, the law, which isthe law, the covenants, that
which pre-existed Christ, thatGod had put in place for Israel.
Paul writes about it to theRomans in Romans 10, romans 9,
10, and 11.
I can give an answer for theGod of the Old Testament.
I don't hide from that.
But there's context to all ofit and uh and so we don't shy
(25:15):
away from it.
There's some hard conversations, but we don't shy away from
them.
Um and so when, when you'regrowing up mormon and you're
like you're, I'd like for you totalk a little bit about
seminary.
When you're, I guess, in highschool and you're attending your
weekly seminary classes, whatdo they say about that?
Or do they just focus on thissort of neo-contemporary form of
(25:37):
Mormonism?
So maybe there's some historythere, but as far as the
doctrine and belief, it's neo,it's contemporary, it's what's
that?
How does all of that fit.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Well, I think that's a really good point for the
bible, you know one, the biblenever makes apologies.
Some christian try to makeapologies for the things that
god did, but as far as characterwise, like the bible is very
careful to let us know the flawsof the people that were trying
to serve God.
Like David fell, you know,moses was rebuked for hitting
(26:18):
the rock with the staff.
Um, there's all Abraham whenhis why and and lying about his
wife, all of these thingsthere's.
There's a sin for every hero ofthe faith and it really isn't
that for Joseph Smith.
They've got.
So much of our childhood washearing these martyr-like
(26:46):
stories and Joseph Smith'smartyrdom, as Joseph Smith was
too good for this world he waslike jesus.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Joseph smith is not like abraham david gideon.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Joseph smith is like jesus, because there is no flaw
with jesus yes, in fact, Iremember specifically, um, they
portrayed joseph as like thispariah of Is pariah the right
word, I don't know this perfectexample of like, perfect
character, even from a young age, and they'll tell a story of he
(27:22):
had to get some of his boneremoved, like from his leg, and
a doctor had to go in and theydidn't have anesthesia and they
had to go in and give him thisextremely painful surgery.
And we're like this isn't theform of a animated movie.
We're watching this animatedmovie of the life of joseph
(27:44):
smith and we were watching itover and over as kids and it's
like him, him at a young age, hehas this bone disease and he's
like saying these brave things,like I can do it, papa, and like
he's just perfect, even from ayoung age.
And then, when he becomes older, he's all of his and he'll say
(28:05):
this in his he'll in his ownwords all of his family went to
different churches.
Uh, he had a big family andsome of them were going to like
baptist or methodist I don'tactually know what the actual
churches they were going to were, but it was.
His zeal for the Lord was sogreat that he diligently sought
(28:26):
out and he had to find the truth.
He could not settle for thefact that there were multiple
churches.
He thought it was so terribleand he read James if any of you
lack wisdom, and they'll saythat passage over and over and
over again and they'll just useit as an example.
That's what Joseph Smith did.
He said if any of you lackwisdom, let him ask God.
(28:46):
And the story is he was doingthat and went into the woods to
pray and was attacked by Satan.
It's kind of a similar passagein sounding to like when Abraham
is about to get the promise andthis deep darkness comes upon
him.
It's kind of a strange passage,but it's they.
They use that kind of thingwhere it's like he's wrestling
(29:07):
with Satan and then, uh, twopersonages appear that's their
wording and it's the father andthe son.
They look exactly the same inthe, in all their pictures and
and the father comes down and hesays this is my son, listen to
him.
And then that's when he getsthis revelation.
And actually this specificphrase if we get into me,
(29:33):
hearing the gospel is a form ofcounter evangelism.
They, they, all these cults.
They train their cult members torebuff our evangelistic efforts
okay and one of the phrasesthat that that the son gave to
(29:56):
joseph in that uh revelation wasall of the churches have some
of the truth, but they do nothave the full revelation.
And so anytime that you're outand hearing something that's
different that's the phrase thatwould go off in my head is,
(30:17):
you'll hear some things that youlike and some things you don't,
and you're like, oh yeah,that's right, they do have some
of the truth, but they don'thave all of it.
So anytime they start talkingabout the deity of Christ, about
the authority of scripture,that buzz will go off and think
oh, that's where they're off.
They don't have the fullrevelation of Christ.
So, to answer that question,Joseph Smith is a hero, he is
(30:43):
the archetype, he is withouterror and the story of his
martyrdom is, like it's alsosaid, like he knew it was going
to happen and he had peace aboutit and he went to his death
willingly, like a brave heart.
We'll take our lives, we'llnever take our freedom, and he
(31:04):
walked into it, you know, boldlyand and just died um, that he
knew um.
So they're very careful toportray justice now.
Maybe different now, becausethat was 25 years ago for me, um
, and, like I said, there's alot of stuff history coming out
(31:25):
where they're more apologetic.
Um, but when I was raised, itwas Joseph Smith is the hero he
is.
He is the best person that everlived.
Um, and then seminary.
That was a it's a differentpart of your question, seminary.
I really don't remember if itwas once a week or every day,
(31:46):
but it was like it would justlook like a Bible study.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
It's before school in the morning.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Yeah, it was before school and you didn't have to go
, but it was.
There's a lot of things thatwere maybe not required, but
like were essentially required,like if you wanted, if you
wanted people to respect you inthe church, um, and that
happened lots of places, but itwas was this just for guys, or
(32:13):
guys and girls?
It was guys and girls.
So, um, usually this might workdifferent in in places like
Utah and Arizonarizona, but Iwas in, I'm in, I was from
georgia near atlanta, and soit's really interesting too,
just as a side note, howdifferent these cults will act
when they're the majority versusthe minority.
(32:35):
And so I was in the minorityand so we, we probably acted a
lot different than the people inutah, where everything was
normal.
So we were like we were theelect exiles in the as the
minority group.
Okay, uh, we were the, we werethe people who were trampled but
, you know, not conquered.
Um, that was the mentality, andso it was just the people who
(32:59):
went to my high school and allsaid, for that area, I think
there was like 15 to 20.
I went to a big high school.
It was like 260, etowah inWoodstock, georgia, and so it
was my graduating class was 260.
And I think all the classeswere like that.
(33:19):
So, and then 20 out of allthose grades were Mormon, and so
we went to the bishop's house,so we drove to his house every
morning and there was like afour-year rotation of scripture
memory and it was, I think itwas one a week, and so it was
(33:42):
like you went through the oldTestament and then the new
Testament and then the book ofMormon and maybe the doctrine
and covenants, um was.
You had like 30 or so memoryversus, and I still remember a
good bit of them.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Are those verses from the Bible, or from the book of
Mormon, or from the Doctrine andCovenant?
What were the verses so youhave memorized some verses from
the King James Bible, right.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Yeah, King.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
James.
So you have memorized versesfrom the King James Bible.
You have memorized verses fromthe Book of Mormon.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
And the Doctrine and Covenant.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
And then the Doctrine and Covenant.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Okay, yeah, and they were a lot of.
The ones in the Bible were onesthat were very closely tied,
that they had given newinterpretations to, but I still
remember the one thatspecifically comes to my mind is
Ezekiel, and it's Ezekieltalking he's getting a
(34:44):
revelation and there's twoscrollss and the two scrolls
become one and they will takethat and say this first scroll
is the bible and the secondscroll is the book of mormon,
and they became one.
And then the other one that'svery similar is jesus saying I
have other sheep that are not ofthis fold, which is very clear,
talking about gentiles versusjews.
(35:05):
But for the mormons they arejews in their mind, they, even
if you go to the temple, they'lltell you what tribe you are
like.
Through revelation, they'lltell you your tribe.
Um, okay, I've never heard that.
Yeah, and if you were not, ifyou don't have a tribe, then you
get adopted essentially intolevi, and so, either way, you
(35:27):
are, um, you are an israelite,you're not a gentile.
What was your tribe?
I don't, I never went and didit.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, it's like oh, you have to go there yes, it's,
it's something that you do.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
A lot of things.
Things are like I don't know,tiered to age.
So I got out earlier than themission and it's called like the
endowment ceremony and some ofit.
I'm kind of losing and it's solong ago.
But when you turn 16, then ifyou're a boy, then you get the
(36:02):
no, it's 12.
12 is the Aaronic priesthood andthey've got two priesthoods and
they'll take that passage inHebrews you are a priest forever
after the order of Melchizedekand they'll say there are two
priesthoods and they'll ordainyoung men in the Aaronic
priesthood when they're 12, andthey'll have different roles
(36:24):
that they are allowed to performwithin the church.
The main one is really justpassing out sacrament on Sundays
.
That's the main role.
They're supposed to lead inservice projects and different
things.
That's the main ceremonialthing that you can have once
you're 12.
When you're 16, you get theMelchizedek priesthood and that
(36:48):
still has some tears.
Then you're able to bless thesacrament and then you're able
to bless people.
But there's a ceremony in thetemple and there's a couple of
them, so I might not get thename right, but there's one
where you get a blessing.
I think it's called thepatriarchal blessing.
So you go and there's apatriarch in the temple and
(37:08):
he'll bless you.
He'll give you uh, your tribename and a blessing.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
This would be at your local church this is a
pilgrimage to, this is a like, apilgrimage out to Utah.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
No, you would.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Where's the temple?
Speaker 4 (37:23):
The temple.
I mean the temples are all overthe place.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Okay, so your local church is different from the
temple?
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yes, okay, yes, so they've got local church
buildings that you'll see them.
You know the Church of JesusChrist the one in Murphy, for
example, is you go down thatthat road.
You'll see it on the left afterthe foot doctor um, and it just
looks like a normal church andit's got the big sign right
there.
The temples are much moreornate and classy, so probably
(37:52):
the closest one to here is inatlanta.
They have them in most majorcities in america by Um and some
States like Utah and Arizona.
I'm sure there's several um.
They've got them in mostcountries.
So on Sunday you would go toyour church and then the temple
(38:13):
is for ceremonies specificallylike the certain rights and and
ceremonies that that they wouldperform.
Things like getting thatpatriarchal blessing, getting
baptized for the dead, is athing that they practice.
They think that you can getpeople into the next kingdom
(38:37):
We'll maybe talk about that butif they weren't a mormon in
their life, you can get baptizedfor them and you kind of get
them an upgrade after death.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Okay, so if you like, if I was just born into a
mormon family, would I just beconsidered, I guess, saved, or
like is there like a decisionthat you guys make?
What does that look like?
Speaker 4 (39:04):
so there really isn't the word saved.
And if we get into my story alittle bit, when I was getting
saved my friends told me Ineeded to get saved and I said I
don't know what that means okay, I had no concept of salvation.
So there really isn't salvation.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
It would be more like you're one of us it's like
being born a jew in oldtestament israel yeah, yeah
you're born into you're.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
You're a member of a covenant community yes, and it
is a big day when you getbaptized okay, um, and what does
that look like?
Speaker 1 (39:44):
like a regular baptism?
Speaker 4 (39:46):
it does.
It's a.
It's a little funny becausethey they have someone watching
to make sure you go all the wayunder the water, but they're
very passionate about it beingcomplete immersion and if you,
if you get baptized and likeyour leg came up or your nose
was poking out, they're likebaptize them again.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
You didn't go all the way under.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
But most people, if you're raised in church, you get
baptized at eight, eight yearsold and that's borrowing from
that whole age of accountabilitythat was big in at that time.
Eight was the age ofaccountability.
So and they'll use that phrase,They'll say they'll literally.
I remember my parents tellingme when I was like seven, up
(40:30):
until like ready to turn eightup until now you haven't been
responsible for your sins, Ihave.
They're my sins, you're notaccountable.
And then when I turned eight,I'm suddenly accountable.
So now I need that washing.
And this is actually not justMormonism, but this was big
(40:51):
Again.
All of this stuff is big in the1820s.
There's a lot of misconceptionsaround that time about what
baptism was around that time,about what baptism was, and so
the Mormons.
There was at least this cultureof your sins.
From the time you get baptizedor washed away, but not after
(41:13):
you have to go do all of thesethings now to be in good
standing.
Like mission or stuff like thatMission serving in the church
getting married in the temple,and even to the point where,
when I was in high school andstarting to rebel and getting
sin, my friends and I would talkand we would envy the people
(41:33):
who got like.
We'd see.
There are some people whoconverted when they're like 60
after being able to live a rough, being able to live a rough
life, and we're like man, I wish, wish I hadn't been raised
Mormon.
I wish I had been able to bereally old and so then I'd have
more sins washed away when I gotbaptized.
So it was really badunderstanding of what baptism is
(41:58):
at all, but they still havebaptism.
That's another thing that makesit seem like oh.
Christians baptize people andthey get baptized.
And if you don't know whatbaptism is, then that's just
normal.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
You could show up to that local church and there'd be
somebody getting baptized onthat Sunday and it would just
look like a baptism at anindependent, fundamental Baptist
church.
Yes, okay, yep.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
So I really do want to get into your story, but I'm
struggling to understand, like,like, let's say, I just walked
into a mormon church and waslike hey, like I want to convert
.
Like what would that processlook like?
Like you said something aboutlike the dead baptism, like
would I be considered like dead,and then no, it's for actual
(42:45):
dead people.
Oh, it's like that's okay, Idid not realize that.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
That's crazy.
You are it's baptism throughproxy.
You are their proxy.
So I got baptized for mygrandpa.
Like my grandpa was not aMormon, my family became.
Mormon when I was four, theyconverted okay so this is why
you know, mormons are big forfamily history and they're known
for that.
(43:09):
They, you know they're hugefamily history nerds.
The main reason for that isthat's how, that for them, that
is a mission field, becausethey're looking up names and
figuring out who's related tothem.
That's how, for them, that is amission field, because they're
looking up names and figuringout who's related to them.
That's a Mormon that can getbaptized for them.
So in their mind, they're doingevangelism, in a sense like
(43:33):
they're getting people to betterplaces in heaven by looking up
family history and then gettingbaptized for them.
Does that make sense?
Yes, for someone who waswanting to convert, they would
probably.
I was four when we went throughit, but it would be mainly with
(43:55):
the missionaries.
That was kind of their job andthey would take you through a
class, kind of like a newmembers class at a church, and
and really what happened with myfamily is they came to our door
like as, as they do, Really.
Uh, they came to our door andmy mom um, let's do this.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Yeah, let's take a break.
Um, stretch your legs, get adrink of water, and let's come
back and start right there andlet's roll into Josh's story,
cause I'd really like to hearjust hear that all in one piece.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Okay, Y'all, we took a break recording Um.
So that's going to wrap up thepart one of these two episodes,
Um.
Make sure you tune in for parttwo where Josh really gets into
his upbringing and just more ofhis testimony.
Super encouraging, superinteresting story.
I hope you guys enjoyed so farand we'll see you next time for
(44:55):
the part two.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Thanks for listening to no Sanity Required.
Please take a moment tosubscribe and leave a rating.
It really helps.
Visit us at SWOutfitterscom tosee all of our programming and
resources, and we'll see younext week on no Sanity Required.
Hey everyone, welcome back to NSR.
This will be a two-part series.
Me and Brody sat down with JoshHaskell, who now works with a
Christian school that ispartnered with Snowbird, and
they come we offer Christianschool retreats.
So he was in town this weekendfor a retreat and so we sat down
(00:21):
with him.
But he's also worked onSnowbird Summer Staff and worked
with Old School, which is anold program that we used to run
for years.
His last summer was 2021, but wesat down with him because he
has such an interesting andencouraging story story.
(00:50):
I won't spoil it all, but hegrew up very devout Mormon in a
Mormon household and so he justkind of shared we just got to
pick his brain on you know, whatdo Mormons believe and major
differences between Christianityand Mormonism, and then he just
really got into how the Lord'swill and God's sovereignty just
brought him out and now he isteaching the Bible at a
(01:12):
Christian school, which is justso crazy, thank the Lord.
I thank the Lord for his storyand just for his willingness to
share his story on NSR.
But yeah, this is going to be atwo-part series.
I feel like we could havetalked for another two hours, so
we'll break this up, but thankyou guys so much for watching
(01:33):
and welcome to NSR.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of
Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters.
A podcast about the Bible,culture and stories from around
the globe.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
So I'd like to start off by just saying Josh doesn't
need to be welcomed, becausehe's one of us.
He served here.
How long did you serve here insome capacity?
Speaker 4 (02:07):
My first summer was 2012, and then off and on, maybe
eight summers.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, so eight years, connected to old school, at one
point interned, worked, workedin various jobs and so
longstanding relationship withJosh and I've wanted to tell
Josh's story for a long time onNSR.
But I wanted to be able to sitdown and do it in an, in an non
(02:31):
compressed way, and I didn'twant.
I don't like doing zoominterviews or I don't like the
ear pods, airpods and the camera, and I want to be in the same
space in these interviews.
I'm not criticizing anybodyelse that does it, but I need it
to be visceral, cerebral and Iwant to interact with this in
(02:51):
person.
And so we've waited until nowbecause I wanted it to be right.
The feedback we got from myinterview with John Pollock, who
came out of the Catholic church, was the feedback was
phenomenal and you get a lot offeedback as well.
Both JB and I got a lot offeedback from that.
Um, I don't know if you had achance to listen to that, but I
(03:12):
think you would really enjoy it.
Um, and I want to get you twotogether at some point, just
because you're both veryintelligent, very articulate and
um, you have differentperspectives on the Christian
gospel and so, but sameperspective, different
background perspectives.
You know, um, and and uh, thefeedback was so good, I was like
now's the time I want to get, Iwant to get Josh on here.
(03:34):
So Josh is uh, uh, here thisweek, uh, with a group from his
school where he he he's part ofa school that's here this week
leads, um, he's now in theeducation side of Christian
ministry, so we're just going todive in.
I've asked JB to prepare somequestions and we'll just sort of
dialogue through how Joshanswers these questions.
(03:57):
I just want you to have freedomto run with this and speak
candidly.
There's going to be some hardconversation where we talk about
josh's family, what this hasdone, his, his leaving the
mormon church and entering intoa relationship with christ, um,
what that's done to familyrelationships, the strain and
(04:18):
stress that's put on thoserelationships, and so we'll get
into all that.
So, um, jebby, why't you, whydon't you just start us off and
uh, and we'll get it rollingthat way.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, so Josh grew up Mormon and I actually didn't
know that.
So I'm super excited to justhear your story and hear how the
Lord has worked through you.
But I kind of wanted to openwith some questions for you
about, like, the differencesbetween Mormonism and
Christianity and one I thinkMormon Mormonism, I guess is
(04:51):
trending in some ways.
Like have you ever heard of theshow Secret Life of Mormon
Wives?
I've heard of it, yes, so likethere's like random shows and
like on TikTok or Instagram, Ijust see a lot of people like
trending who are associated withlike LDS and Mormon and stuff
like that, and so that kind ofbrings a lot of questions to me.
(05:12):
I remember a few months ago Isent Brody a voice message about
something about Mormon and hewas like we should just do an
episode on it.
But kind of fast forwarding, wehad a couple guys, intern guys,
that had a different religionclass or something where they
had to explore differentreligions, and they went to the
Mormon Church in Murphy and theycame back and they were like
(05:39):
man, it was kind of weirdbecause it was like fairly
normal, like we were kind ofexpecting some like super
cultish experiment, likewhatever, but they were like no,
it's fairly normal.
And like if we didn't know, wewould have thought, oh, this is
just a Christian church, this isjust a regular church.
And so for you, I just kind ofwanted, if you can, articulate
ways that like they might looksimilar like Christianity and
(06:02):
Mormonism and maybe like themajor differences if that makes
sense In the vein of becausethey look similar.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
That's why it's so dangerous, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Um, let me first say you know the trending thing to
say that's totally purposeful ontheir part.
Um, if Brody probably remembersthis, but like 16 years ago
they had commercials and it waslike some girl in Hawaii.
He's like just saying, justlike going through a normal life
(06:34):
, I like surfing, I like hangingout with my friends, I like
doing this or that.
And then just the last word wasI'm Kaylee or whatever, and I'm
a Mormon.
And that was the whole whole.
That was a commercial and itwas like normalizing, because
they did have a stigma for along time of being quite strange
and so they were trying tonormalize.
Uh, who normalized their reviewto the, to average person?
(06:59):
And then I think the shows,even though they don't always
paint Mormonism in a good light,they are still getting
attention.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
And they're a very evangelical group as far as
getting their people out, theirmessage out.
Even if you go on FacebookMarketplace, I've noticed this.
Maybe it's just because I'mMormon, I'll see it, but I'll
see free Bible and free biblewith a conversation and it's
like they're posting stuff onfacebook marketplace.
(07:30):
I've seen stuff it's like freecup, just to like, get your
attention, and then it's youknow, free cup with the with the
bible, and then the nextpicture is them with their you
know, lds badge on um.
So they're.
It's definitely purposeful thatif they are trending, they've
got young people influences,influencers that are working for
them to try to reach theculture very specifically, um,
(07:53):
and then, as far as it lookingnormal, uh, but being dark
shouldn't surprise any christian.
I mean, john tells us satanposes as an angel of light, like
, and that that is so true ofevery cult they are.
They are trying to hide the,the, you know as jesus calls the
(08:15):
, the pharisees, whitewashedtombs.
They are trying to hide thegross, disgusting things that
are actually inside the church.
And so you know, for David andand that friend that went, if
you went to a church service, ifyou were raised Baptist, it
would probably feel veryfamiliar to you, especially if
(08:36):
you were raised in the fundyBaptist, um, the, the pews are
the same, no-transcript the1820s, you'll still notice
(09:15):
similar language now.
So a very popular phrase, notused as much anymore.
It's just like the, uh, theplan of salvation.
That phrase is used for peoplepreaching the gospel, not as
much anymore.
We'll just, you know, saypreaching the gospel.
I took them down Romans road,but the plan of salvation was a
very popular turn of phrase andso they have like this drawing I
(09:37):
remember as a kid of, and wewere talking beforehand about.
You know what happens afterdeath?
They'll start with what theycall the premortal existence of.
We all existed beforehand andwe came down to earth to get a
body and then we're gonna getone of these kingdoms, um and so
, but they'll call it the planof salvation and we can get into
(09:58):
different doctrines, butthey're even they're changing it
as as, as the, as the years goby, and this is why they always
seem normal, and this is, Iguess, the beauty of having a
made up religion is, you canalways change to adapt the
culture and so their doctrine.
Now, versus even 50 years ago,black people weren't allowed to
(10:20):
be in positions of authority andthey had a revelation that
changed that.
Um, and you read the book ofmormon from, you know the
original edition.
Versus now, it's all verydifferent.
Um, so, as far as what, whatenables them to hide in plain
(10:42):
sight is that ability andthey're really good at it taking
all of the language that we useand changing the meaning, using
the same words, but changingthe meaning of those words.
And so, um, cultish talks aboutthis a lot their podcast that
(11:03):
words have words have meanings.
Um, and that's a very powerfultool of a cult.
The most powerful one and thisis what pulled me out is what,
what?
Who is God?
What is, what is the nature ofGod?
And specifically, what doChristians mean?
What does the Bible mean whenit says Jesus is God?
(11:26):
Like that, that phrase istheologically rich, it's the
basis of our faith as Christians.
And you ask a Mormon do youthink Jesus is God?
They will say yes, and in theirminds they're not lying through
their teeth.
Right Now they don't mean thesame thing that we mean at all,
(11:49):
but they have.
The church has changed themeaning of those words and in
their plan of, and they changedthat plan of salvation to the
plan of happiness becausesalvation there's no concept of
salvation in Mormonism, but theyhave.
The plan is we all become gods.
The plan is we all become gods.
(12:09):
And so they've got no mentalblock thinking.
I'm being dishonest if I'mtelling this person Jesus is God
.
I do believe.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Jesus is God.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
But so will I.
And really all of Mormonism,really all man-made religions,
are a undeifying of God.
You know, that's straight fromRomans, when they knew God,
didn't honor him as God, insteadworshiped him as the creator.
And all these man-madereligions are taking God off the
throne and putting man thereinstead, and so they have used
(12:47):
tricky language to be able tofit in.
You can have a normal if youdon't say expressly what you
mean.
You can have a normalconversation with a Mormon and,
for that matter, Seventh-dayAdventist Jehovah Witness, you
can have a normal conversation.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And think we're on the same team.
We believe the same thing.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
If you don't know their buzzwords, then then would
you agree if for somebodythat's like, okay, I have a
friend who's a Mormon and I cannever get past them saying we're
the same, what are thequestions you would?
Just that you would ask thatwould like?
Okay, at this point there's aline in the sand for them to
answer this question yeahthere's no way around.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
There's no way around it yeah me, I'm a I'm a pretty
aggressive person as far as whenit gets to the gospel.
So I mean, there's tons ofstuff you could talk about just
the bible and like its authority, because they've got the book
of mormon and, uh, you couldtalk about different minor
doctrines and they love actuallyfor you to get caught up in
(13:54):
that stuff.
They've got those answers ready.
But I just go straight forjesus being god person of jesus,
personhood, christology.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
yeah, has it okay?
You say he's god.
Do you believe he's always beenand always has been, one with
the father and always has been,has been God Absolutely?
Yeah, that's the question youwould ask I go to.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
we need need to define who God is.
There's one God, you knowthere's one guy, cause they
really are polytheistic.
They they wouldn't.
Maybe, depending on the Mormonyou talk to, they might say they
are or not, but they arepolytheistic.
They believe in an infinitenumber of gods, like, even more
than the Hindus, because everysingle human that has lived and
(14:35):
has obeyed the laws andordinances of the gospel that's
one of their phrases is going tobe a God.
And they believe that the Godthat they worship, that he was
once a man on his own planet,just like us, and that he earned
his position and so dideveryone else that was living on
(14:58):
his planet and he had a God,and so it goes on and on forever
, and they call it the doctrineof eternal progression.
So they believe I mean it'sstraight, I mean most important
doctrine, who is God?
And so I go straight for that.
There is one God.
He's like you said, he'seternal, he's holy, and actually
, you know, we can get into thisa little bit.
(15:20):
When I first came to Snowbird asa Mormon with a friend, the one
of the big things for me is youpreached Isaiah six and and you
are a really good storytellerand you can paint a vivid word
picture.
And I was listening to Isaiah 6, and I saw in my mind's eye for
(15:44):
the first time ever, the gloryand majesty and holiness of the
God of the Bible, and Iliterally like, said in my head
that's not the God I worship.
Like.
The God I worship is not holy,he's like he's an exalted man.
That's the word.
Though he's like me, and so Igo.
(16:05):
I go straight for who God is,and then Jesus is God.
So I go straight for who God is, and then Jesus is God.
So I go straight to the Trinity.
I spend a lot of time in theGospel of John whenever I'm
sharing the gospel with a Mormon, colossians.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Colossians 1.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
You really get into his and Hebrews 1.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
And Hebrews 1 is really good.
Yeah, those characteristics.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Because, even specifically in Hebrews, when he
starts saying and you need toknow Mormon doctrine to get why
it's so powerful but becausethey believe that we were all in
heaven before, they think weare angels.
And some people, even I'd saythe Christians, think that too.
Where they take that passagewhere Jesus says that there
(16:49):
won't be marriage in heaven, inheaven they are like angels.
Some people interpret that tosay that we are angels.
But the mormons, they think wewere angels beforehand.
And, uh, angels are eitherpeople who are not gotten the
body yet or they've died.
And so when it says in hebrewsthat he's greater than the
angels, that he's greater thanthe prophets, that he's greater
(17:11):
than the angels, that he'sgreater than the prophets, that
he's greater than Moses, theydon't want to have a category of
Jesus actually being higherthan us.
They want him to be literallyand they call him an elder
brother, like he's above us, inthe way that an elder brother is
above us, he has the samenature as us.
If you have a brother, he hasthe same nature as us.
If you have a brother, he hasthe same nature of you, the same
(17:32):
parents, and he might have a,you know, in your family dynamic
.
He might have a position ofauthority or honor, but in
essence he's not better than you, he's just.
He's just got a different roleand that's what they want.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Would they like worship God in the same sense
Like do you got, do you?
Would you say that Mormonsworship like Joseph Smith?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Um, they definitely wouldn't say that and I don't
know if I would say they worshiphim.
Maybe revere that might meanthe same thing, but they hold
him in a very reverent regard.
Yeah, it'd kind of be a similarconversation with the catholic
stuff.
It'd kind of be a you'd have asimilar conversation with a
(18:16):
mormon about joseph smith, asthey might, as a catholic might,
have about mary, like theywould deny that they worship
mary or saints and I mean theydon't pray to joseph smith but
they, they, have the highestrespect for him.
Brigham young, I think, is theone who said no man has done
more for the church than josephsmith and he he included jesus
(18:40):
christ as as like a man thatjoseph smith did more than for
the church, which is just wild.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Can we rabbit trail for one second?
Don't let me get completely offtrack here.
Okay, I watched a documentaryand I don't know how accurate it
was that Brigham Young wasextremely violent and militant.
That when they moved becausethey migrated from Pacific I
mean from Eastern Seaboard NewEngland and migrated out west
(19:14):
under persecution on this sideof the country, went out there
to establish some autonomy andthat's how they ended up in such
a vast expanse of that area isunder sort of Mormon rule, but
that it was a militant takeover.
They fought Native Americans,they fought the army, they
fought settlers.
Like is that is there?
Speaker 4 (19:33):
is that true?
Oh yeah, absolutely they.
Brigham Young especially.
He gets um.
More recently, like when I wasbeing raised, brigham Young was
a hero.
But when people started doinghistory into the Mormon church
and things are coming to light,um, a lot of.
If you talk to maybe not if youtalk to like the leaders in the
(19:54):
Mormon church, but if you talkto a Mormon, a lot of times
they're pretty apologetic aboutBrigham Young specifically.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Oh, um, not as an apologetic.
Like they, they feel sorry that, like they have they're like,
yeah, Brigham Young.
Okay sorry, but like they have,they're like, yeah, brigham
young, okay okay, because Iwatched this show.
I'm not going to name it.
People listening that saw itwill know what it is.
I watched it by myself.
It was like a five-part netflixor prime or something like that
.
I watched it last, uh, spring.
(20:22):
It's a dramatization of brighamyoung.
Brigham young and the westwardexpansion and it and it brings
sort of three things into playwar with the Native Americans
and war with the army andsettlers and it makes him out.
I mean that dude, it was likemore violent than Viking lore,
(20:45):
you know, like they'rebutchering people and killing
people to claim and establishtheir lands.
And that's when I went into adeep dive because I never heard
any of that.
I just thought he was kind of awacko cult leader.
But most cult leaders eitherbecome very violent and or very
sexual.
Yes, so it makes sense thatthey did both.
There's always going to be sex,sexual perversion, so polygamy
(21:07):
check makes sense and I knowmainstream Mormons in the East
here don't practice that, butit's always going to be sexually
perverse.
There's always going to be somedegree of violence to grow and
expand the brand.
And so Brigham Young seemed tohave been a guy that really took
those to the extremes.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
Yeah, on that, I am always seeing similarities
between Mormonism and Islam.
And even Brigham Young, josephSmith, was violent himself, and
even there's like one thing thatI might go through with a
Mormon is the prophet test inthe Old Testament where it says
(21:49):
um, god is giving the, theisraelites, a command, uh and a,
and a good word to test aprophet.
He says you know, if they, ifthey say that they are speaking
from god and then they foretella future event and it doesn't
come true, stone them, they'refalse prophet like they're not
(22:09):
speaking for god, because godknows everything, he doesn't lie
.
And then also, interestinglyenough, he says if they foretell
an event, and it comes true,because you know they're demons,
that you know the, the demonpossessed girl that was
following paul, told the futureand she, accurately, was talking
about paul.
If they, if they foretell thefuture and it comes true, but
(22:30):
they say let's go worship adifferent god, stone them.
You know they're, they're not,obviously not from god.
And so a very powerful proof isto just look at justice smith's
prophecies and they've got abook of them they call the
doctrine and covenants, and alot of them are so vague, or
their rules, not really prophecy, it's just saying he's speaking
(22:52):
from God and he's saying, ohhey, we're not allowed to drink
coffee or smoke tobacco.
But some of them are absolutelypredictions of the future, and
one of them, in this aggressivevein this is what made me think
of it is he was pretty much atwar with the american government
(23:13):
and they were taking their landuh, you know, for good reason.
And he said if they don't giveus back this land I'd have to
look up exactly the wording butif they don't give us back this
land, then america is going tobe destroyed, annihilated.
And then they didn't give themback the land and they kept
having to move westward.
(23:34):
And america's still here today,we're, we're still a nation.
So they were definitely at war.
Um, they, they, they'lldefinitely play the victim card
for all of everything that wenton, with joseph smith and
brigham young saying we tried tolive here peaceably and they
just hated us because we weredifferent.
And there there might've beensome of that.
(23:54):
Um, there's always zeal umthere, but there was definitely
violence, um, on both sides ofwherever they went.
There's even a famous massacrethat the Mormons committed
that's what that movie portrayed.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Okay, that series.
It portrays that massacre.
Yeah and amen.
They portray it brutally, like125 people or something.
There's a big number of women,children, yeah, I didn't know
that yeah, and so how like sowhen you're growing up in the
mormon church?
Now you're not being taught.
Everything's being taughtthrough a filter or a lens, I'm
(24:32):
assuming whereas let me make thecomparison we do not filter
when we teach the old testament,the new covenant.
The new covenant under christbrings in uh, clarity to the old
covenant.
If jesus said I didn't come toabolish that, but I came to
(24:52):
fulfill it, the law, which isthe law, the covenants, that
which pre-existed Christ, thatGod had put in place for Israel.
Paul writes about it to theRomans in Romans 10, romans 9,
10, and 11.
I can give an answer for theGod of the Old Testament.
I don't hide from that.
But there's context to all ofit and uh and so we don't shy
(25:15):
away from it.
There's some hard conversations, but we don't shy away from
them.
Um and so when, when you'regrowing up mormon and you're
like you're, I'd like for you totalk a little bit about
seminary.
When you're, I guess, in highschool and you're attending your
weekly seminary classes, whatdo they say about that?
Or do they just focus on thissort of neo-contemporary form of
(25:37):
Mormonism?
So maybe there's some historythere, but as far as the
doctrine and belief, it's neo,it's contemporary, it's what's
that?
How does all of that fit.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Well, I think that's a really good point for the
bible, you know one, the biblenever makes apologies.
Some christian try to makeapologies for the things that
god did, but as far as characterwise, like the bible is very
careful to let us know the flawsof the people that were trying
to serve God.
Like David fell, you know,moses was rebuked for hitting
(26:18):
the rock with the staff.
Um, there's all Abraham whenhis why and and lying about his
wife, all of these thingsthere's.
There's a sin for every hero ofthe faith and it really isn't
that for Joseph Smith.
They've got.
So much of our childhood washearing these martyr-like
(26:46):
stories and Joseph Smith'smartyrdom, as Joseph Smith was
too good for this world he waslike jesus.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Joseph smith is not like abraham david gideon.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Joseph smith is like jesus, because there is no flaw
with jesus yes, in fact, Iremember specifically, um, they
portrayed joseph as like thispariah of Is pariah the right
word, I don't know this perfectexample of like, perfect
character, even from a young age, and they'll tell a story of he
(27:22):
had to get some of his boneremoved, like from his leg, and
a doctor had to go in and theydidn't have anesthesia and they
had to go in and give him thisextremely painful surgery.
And we're like this isn't theform of a animated movie.
We're watching this animatedmovie of the life of joseph
(27:44):
smith and we were watching itover and over as kids and it's
like him, him at a young age, hehas this bone disease and he's
like saying these brave things,like I can do it, papa, and like
he's just perfect, even from ayoung age.
And then, when he becomes older, he's all of his and he'll say
(28:05):
this in his he'll in his ownwords all of his family went to
different churches.
Uh, he had a big family andsome of them were going to like
baptist or methodist I don'tactually know what the actual
churches they were going to were, but it was.
His zeal for the Lord was sogreat that he diligently sought
(28:26):
out and he had to find the truth.
He could not settle for thefact that there were multiple
churches.
He thought it was so terribleand he read James if any of you
lack wisdom, and they'll saythat passage over and over and
over again and they'll just useit as an example.
That's what Joseph Smith did.
He said if any of you lackwisdom, let him ask God.
(28:46):
And the story is he was doingthat and went into the woods to
pray and was attacked by Satan.
It's kind of a similar passagein sounding to like when Abraham
is about to get the promise andthis deep darkness comes upon
him.
It's kind of a strange passage,but it's they.
They use that kind of thingwhere it's like he's wrestling
(29:07):
with Satan and then, uh, twopersonages appear that's their
wording and it's the father andthe son.
They look exactly the same inthe, in all their pictures and
and the father comes down and hesays this is my son, listen to
him.
And then that's when he getsthis revelation.
And actually this specificphrase if we get into me,
(29:33):
hearing the gospel is a form ofcounter evangelism.
They, they, all these cults.
They train their cult members torebuff our evangelistic efforts
okay and one of the phrasesthat that that the son gave to
(29:56):
joseph in that uh revelation wasall of the churches have some
of the truth, but they do nothave the full revelation.
And so anytime that you're outand hearing something that's
different that's the phrase thatwould go off in my head is,
(30:17):
you'll hear some things that youlike and some things you don't,
and you're like, oh yeah,that's right, they do have some
of the truth, but they don'thave all of it.
So anytime they start talkingabout the deity of Christ, about
the authority of scripture,that buzz will go off and think
oh, that's where they're off.
They don't have the fullrevelation of Christ.
So, to answer that question,Joseph Smith is a hero, he is
(30:43):
the archetype, he is withouterror and the story of his
martyrdom is, like it's alsosaid, like he knew it was going
to happen and he had peace aboutit and he went to his death
willingly, like a brave heart.
We'll take our lives, we'llnever take our freedom, and he
(31:04):
walked into it, you know, boldlyand and just died um, that he
knew um.
So they're very careful toportray justice now.
Maybe different now, becausethat was 25 years ago for me, um
, and, like I said, there's alot of stuff history coming out
(31:25):
where they're more apologetic.
Um, but when I was raised, itwas Joseph Smith is the hero he
is.
He is the best person that everlived.
Um, and then seminary.
That was a it's a differentpart of your question, seminary.
I really don't remember if itwas once a week or every day,
(31:46):
but it was like it would justlook like a Bible study.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
It's before school in the morning.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Yeah, it was before school and you didn't have to go
, but it was.
There's a lot of things thatwere maybe not required, but
like were essentially required,like if you wanted, if you
wanted people to respect you inthe church, um, and that
happened lots of places, but itwas was this just for guys, or
(32:13):
guys and girls?
It was guys and girls.
So, um, usually this might workdifferent in in places like
Utah and Arizonarizona, but Iwas in, I'm in, I was from
georgia near atlanta, and soit's really interesting too,
just as a side note, howdifferent these cults will act
when they're the majority versusthe minority.
(32:35):
And so I was in the minorityand so we, we probably acted a
lot different than the people inutah, where everything was
normal.
So we were like we were theelect exiles in the as the
minority group.
Okay, uh, we were the, we werethe people who were trampled but
, you know, not conquered.
Um, that was the mentality, andso it was just the people who
(32:59):
went to my high school and allsaid, for that area, I think
there was like 15 to 20.
I went to a big high school.
It was like 260, etowah inWoodstock, georgia, and so it
was my graduating class was 260.
And I think all the classeswere like that.
(33:19):
So, and then 20 out of allthose grades were Mormon, and so
we went to the bishop's house,so we drove to his house every
morning and there was like afour-year rotation of scripture
memory and it was, I think itwas one a week, and so it was
(33:42):
like you went through the oldTestament and then the new
Testament and then the book ofMormon and maybe the doctrine
and covenants, um was.
You had like 30 or so memoryversus, and I still remember a
good bit of them.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Are those verses from the Bible, or from the book of
Mormon, or from the Doctrine andCovenant?
What were the verses so youhave memorized some verses from
the King James Bible, right.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Yeah, King.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
James.
So you have memorized versesfrom the King James Bible.
You have memorized verses fromthe Book of Mormon.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
And the Doctrine and Covenant.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
And then the Doctrine and Covenant.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Okay, yeah, and they were a lot of.
The ones in the Bible were onesthat were very closely tied,
that they had given newinterpretations to, but I still
remember the one thatspecifically comes to my mind is
Ezekiel, and it's Ezekieltalking he's getting a
(34:44):
revelation and there's twoscrollss and the two scrolls
become one and they will takethat and say this first scroll
is the bible and the secondscroll is the book of mormon,
and they became one.
And then the other one that'svery similar is jesus saying I
have other sheep that are not ofthis fold, which is very clear,
talking about gentiles versusjews.
(35:05):
But for the mormons they arejews in their mind, they, even
if you go to the temple, they'lltell you what tribe you are
like.
Through revelation, they'lltell you your tribe.
Um, okay, I've never heard that.
Yeah, and if you were not, ifyou don't have a tribe, then you
get adopted essentially intolevi, and so, either way, you
(35:27):
are, um, you are an israelite,you're not a gentile.
What was your tribe?
I don't, I never went and didit.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, it's like oh, you have to go there yes, it's,
it's something that you do.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
A lot of things.
Things are like I don't know,tiered to age.
So I got out earlier than themission and it's called like the
endowment ceremony and some ofit.
I'm kind of losing and it's solong ago.
But when you turn 16, then ifyou're a boy, then you get the
(36:02):
no, it's 12.
12 is the Aaronic priesthood andthey've got two priesthoods and
they'll take that passage inHebrews you are a priest forever
after the order of Melchizedekand they'll say there are two
priesthoods and they'll ordainyoung men in the Aaronic
priesthood when they're 12, andthey'll have different roles
(36:24):
that they are allowed to performwithin the church.
The main one is really justpassing out sacrament on Sundays
.
That's the main role.
They're supposed to lead inservice projects and different
things.
That's the main ceremonialthing that you can have once
you're 12.
When you're 16, you get theMelchizedek priesthood and that
(36:48):
still has some tears.
Then you're able to bless thesacrament and then you're able
to bless people.
But there's a ceremony in thetemple and there's a couple of
them, so I might not get thename right, but there's one
where you get a blessing.
I think it's called thepatriarchal blessing.
So you go and there's apatriarch in the temple and
(37:08):
he'll bless you.
He'll give you uh, your tribename and a blessing.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
This would be at your local church this is a
pilgrimage to, this is a like, apilgrimage out to Utah.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
No, you would.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Where's the temple?
Speaker 4 (37:23):
The temple.
I mean the temples are all overthe place.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Okay, so your local church is different from the
temple?
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yes, okay, yes, so they've got local church
buildings that you'll see them.
You know the Church of JesusChrist the one in Murphy, for
example, is you go down thatthat road.
You'll see it on the left afterthe foot doctor um, and it just
looks like a normal church andit's got the big sign right
there.
The temples are much moreornate and classy, so probably
(37:52):
the closest one to here is inatlanta.
They have them in most majorcities in america by Um and some
States like Utah and Arizona.
I'm sure there's several um.
They've got them in mostcountries.
So on Sunday you would go toyour church and then the temple
(38:13):
is for ceremonies specificallylike the certain rights and and
ceremonies that that they wouldperform.
Things like getting thatpatriarchal blessing, getting
baptized for the dead, is athing that they practice.
They think that you can getpeople into the next kingdom
(38:37):
We'll maybe talk about that butif they weren't a mormon in
their life, you can get baptizedfor them and you kind of get
them an upgrade after death.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Okay, so if you like, if I was just born into a
mormon family, would I just beconsidered, I guess, saved, or
like is there like a decisionthat you guys make?
What does that look like?
Speaker 4 (39:04):
so there really isn't the word saved.
And if we get into my story alittle bit, when I was getting
saved my friends told me Ineeded to get saved and I said I
don't know what that means okay, I had no concept of salvation.
So there really isn't salvation.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
It would be more like you're one of us it's like
being born a jew in oldtestament israel yeah, yeah
you're born into you're.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
You're a member of a covenant community yes, and it
is a big day when you getbaptized okay, um, and what does
that look like?
Speaker 1 (39:44):
like a regular baptism?
Speaker 4 (39:46):
it does.
It's a.
It's a little funny becausethey they have someone watching
to make sure you go all the wayunder the water, but they're
very passionate about it beingcomplete immersion and if you,
if you get baptized and likeyour leg came up or your nose
was poking out, they're likebaptize them again.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
You didn't go all the way under.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
But most people, if you're raised in church, you get
baptized at eight, eight yearsold and that's borrowing from
that whole age of accountabilitythat was big in at that time.
Eight was the age ofaccountability.
So and they'll use that phrase,They'll say they'll literally.
I remember my parents tellingme when I was like seven, up
(40:30):
until like ready to turn eightup until now you haven't been
responsible for your sins, Ihave.
They're my sins, you're notaccountable.
And then when I turned eight,I'm suddenly accountable.
So now I need that washing.
And this is actually not justMormonism, but this was big
(40:51):
Again.
All of this stuff is big in the1820s.
There's a lot of misconceptionsaround that time about what
baptism was around that time,about what baptism was, and so
the Mormons.
There was at least this cultureof your sins.
From the time you get baptizedor washed away, but not after
(41:13):
you have to go do all of thesethings now to be in good
standing.
Like mission or stuff like thatMission serving in the church
getting married in the temple,and even to the point where,
when I was in high school andstarting to rebel and getting
sin, my friends and I would talkand we would envy the people
(41:33):
who got like.
We'd see.
There are some people whoconverted when they're like 60
after being able to live a rough, being able to live a rough
life, and we're like man, I wish, wish I hadn't been raised
Mormon.
I wish I had been able to bereally old and so then I'd have
more sins washed away when I gotbaptized.
So it was really badunderstanding of what baptism is
(41:58):
at all, but they still havebaptism.
That's another thing that makesit seem like oh.
Christians baptize people andthey get baptized.
And if you don't know whatbaptism is, then that's just
normal.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
You could show up to that local church and there'd be
somebody getting baptized onthat Sunday and it would just
look like a baptism at anindependent, fundamental Baptist
church.
Yes, okay, yep.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
So I really do want to get into your story, but I'm
struggling to understand, like,like, let's say, I just walked
into a mormon church and waslike hey, like I want to convert
.
Like what would that processlook like?
Like you said something aboutlike the dead baptism, like
would I be considered like dead,and then no, it's for actual
(42:45):
dead people.
Oh, it's like that's okay, Idid not realize that.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
That's crazy.
You are it's baptism throughproxy.
You are their proxy.
So I got baptized for mygrandpa.
Like my grandpa was not aMormon, my family became.
Mormon when I was four, theyconverted okay so this is why
you know, mormons are big forfamily history and they're known
for that.
(43:09):
They, you know they're hugefamily history nerds.
The main reason for that isthat's how, that for them, that
is a mission field, becausethey're looking up names and
figuring out who's related tothem.
That's how, for them, that is amission field, because they're
looking up names and figuringout who's related to them.
That's a Mormon that can getbaptized for them.
So in their mind, they're doingevangelism, in a sense like
(43:33):
they're getting people to betterplaces in heaven by looking up
family history and then gettingbaptized for them.
Does that make sense?
Yes, for someone who waswanting to convert, they would
probably.
I was four when we went throughit, but it would be mainly with
(43:55):
the missionaries.
That was kind of their job andthey would take you through a
class, kind of like a newmembers class at a church, and
and really what happened with myfamily is they came to our door
like as, as they do, Really.
Uh, they came to our door andmy mom um, let's do this.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Yeah, let's take a break.
Um, stretch your legs, get adrink of water, and let's come
back and start right there andlet's roll into Josh's story,
cause I'd really like to hearjust hear that all in one piece.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Okay, Y'all, we took a break recording Um.
So that's going to wrap up thepart one of these two episodes,
Um.
Make sure you tune in for parttwo where Josh really gets into
his upbringing and just more ofhis testimony.
Super encouraging, superinteresting story.
I hope you guys enjoyed so farand we'll see you next time for
(44:55):
the part two.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Thanks for listening to no Sanity Required.
Please take a moment tosubscribe and leave a rating.
It really helps.
Visit us at SWOutfitterscom tosee all of our programming and
resources, and we'll see younext week on no Sanity Required.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.