September 15, 2025 • 55 mins
In Part Two of Josh Haskell’s journey out of Mormonism, we go deeper into the transformation that took place after he discovered Jesus. Josh shares how Scripture not only exposed false teachings but reshaped his entire way of thinking. From memorizing the Word to navigating the cost of leaving behind his Mormon roots—including family estrangement—Josh reveals what it really means to follow Christ.
His story is a powerful reminder that true salvation isn’t about letting the truth of God’s Word change everything.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up, NSR?
Welcome back to this week'sepisode.
This is going to be the parttwo of the Josh Haskell
interview.
So if you haven't listened tothe previous episode, I highly
encourage that you go back andlisten to that, because we are
picking up right where we leftoff.
We just paused on ourconversation and then picked it
(00:21):
right back up.
So if you haven't listened tothe part one, you might be a
little bit confused.
But this is more of Josh'stestimony kind of his upbringing
and how he came to faith and sosuper encouraging, so cool to
just hear and as I was sittingthrough and just listening to
(00:41):
his story, I was just so excitedto share this with you guys and
to share his story.
It is probably one of myfavorite episodes, Definitely up
there.
It's so interesting, so cooland I just want to thank Josh
again for coming on and justsharing his story and sharing
(01:02):
close and intimate and hardthings that he's gone through.
But just how the Lord has usedhim and worked through him is
incredible.
So I just want to thank Joshagain and I hope you guys enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Welcome to no Sanity Required welcome to no sanity
required from the ministry ofsnowbird wilderness outfitters.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
A podcast about the bible culture and stories from
around the globe everybody good,yep, um, okay, yeah, let's dive
right in where we left off.
Uh, your story starting withthat.
So you're?
You don't remember this.
You're a four-year-old kid, butyour family wasn't Mormon.
Mormon missionaries showed upat your door.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Would you say your family just like?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
were you guys involved with another religion
before, or just yes, I actuallydo want to back up even further,
because there's a few thingsthat I want people to learn from
my story, mainly because thereare things that I learned from
my story, from my story, mainlybecause there are things that I
learned from my story, and thefirst one is that without God's
sovereign will, there's no waythat I would have been saved,
(02:13):
there's no way I would have evenheard the gospel without God
sovereignly guiding that.
The other things that I reallylove from my story and it
sometimes it seems like it's adifferent person's story and I'm
like amazed at it is, um, justthe power of God's word to save
(02:35):
people and and the power oftruth, the ability of truth to
shine in a dark space and howfar and how, how, just how God's
word is able to give life isjust amazing to me.
After I get saved and we'llmaybe get into that One thing
(02:59):
that God has taught me is justthe power because I didn't
understand this, but as a mormonbut the power of there are
disciplines as a christian, onceyou, once you are saved, not
legalism, but once you are saved, there are powerful disciplines
to give the christian life andto sanctify them and to make
(03:20):
them happy, not to burden themdown, but that white yolk is
there and so good, and then,through it all is just the
glorious to god, because, again,there was.
There's no way.
So for for me to go back?
Um, start with my, my dad's side.
Um, his dad, my grandpa, he wasactually a christian scientist,
(03:47):
which is a different cult.
They're basically, uh,buddhists with christian
language.
They deny reality, they denytruth, uh, very gnostic, and the
flesh is bad and the spirit isgood.
If you're sick it's because youlack faith.
(04:08):
Um, so already a very poorunderstanding of truth, um, and
on my mother's side they werecatholic, but the hippie
movement strongly influenced allof the women on my mom's side
of the family, all my aunts andmy mom.
(04:30):
They were like now, if you goto Asheville and you ask them
what they believe in, they mightthrow out that thing.
I'm really spiritual, like thatvague, nothing meaning thing.
I believe that spirits existand I don't know there's nothing
else there.
So they were all like that, andmy mom will talk about these
spiritual experiences.
(04:52):
You have like visions and andencounters with satan, and so
very spiritual, um, but not alot of big understanding.
And so my parents got married.
I'm the youngest of three.
My parents got divorced when mymom was pregnant with me and
(05:20):
then my dad actually later, whenI was maybe like 12, he became
a Seventh-day Adventist.
Like 12, he became aseventh-day adventist.
Um, so really I come from atradition of man-centered
religions, uh, and really we alldo, but it's there like it's
one cult.
If it wasn't one cult, it wasanother.
Like you, we had like a youknow.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
christ.
Seventh-day, Adventist, Mormonyeah.
Latter-day Saints yeah.
All of that in your immediatefamily.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Yep, and then even the Catholicism and the New Age
and New Age Wow.
And that New Age is really theMormonism.
Mormonism is shifting andadapting and it's becoming more
New Age and universalistic.
And that's when it appealed tomy mom.
So my mom the way that she'lldescribe it is she was going,
(06:12):
she went to lots of churches,she just loved going to church
and she went to all of thembecause she was spiritual.
But she'll just say this thedoctrine I never understood was
the Trinity.
I asked a Catholic priest toexplain it to me and he told me
to shut up and stop askingquestions, which probably
happened, I don't know Um.
And so she never believed inthe Trinity and that was her big
(06:33):
thing.
She, she always loved going tochurch but didn't have good
theology, clearly, um.
So she married my stepdad andthey, when they got married,
we're like we need to.
And it's funny because it justreminds me so much of what Paul
says People will look for peopleto tickle their ears and they
said we need to find a churchthat we like, that teach it,
(06:57):
that we both really like.
And it wasn't.
We need to find it.
I mean, christians might saythat, but when they, when they
say it, what they mean is weneed to find a good church,
church that teaches the Bible,church that teaches the word,
church that holds us accountable.
But they really meant we needto find a church that suits our
preferences.
And so they.
I remember going to a Lutheranchurch and a Catholic church and
(07:20):
a Methodist church when I wasreally young, four years old,
and then the Mormons came to ourdoor and that was the doctrine,
the doctrine of the Trinity isreally what locked in for my mom
.
She was like she said I hadthis list of questions and I was
waiting for someone to answerthem all, the same way that I
(07:41):
answered them.
And that was the church that Iwas going to go to.
And one of the big ones was Idon't believe in the them.
And that was the church that Iwas going to go to.
And one of the big ones was Idon't believe in the Trinity.
And they were just like oh well, neither do we.
And there was you know, oh well,we can be happy together
because neither, none of usbelieve in the Trinity, the
other things that appealed toher.
I mean she did want us.
You know, they're both raisedchristian.
(08:02):
My stepdad was raised catholicin a catholic school, so strong
moral, like foundation therestill, and in both mormonism
like there is rules, there'slike a rigid moral structure,
and they liked that as well.
They liked one of the mainappeals that the mormons will
(08:22):
give is this tie to family unity, and one of their doctrines in
that eternal progression of youbeing a God is you will be a God
with your family forever.
When you marry your wife in thetemple.
You are sealed together foreternity and so it's not till
death do us part.
(08:43):
It's beyond.
For eternity.
Yeah, we are married foreternity and so it's not till
death, do us part, it's beyondeternity.
Yeah, we are married foreternity, um, so that's one of
their big things too, that they,they appeal, and I mean there's
a part of that that at least,if you have a good marriage,
it's like, well, yeah, I, I'dlove to be with my wife forever,
like that.
That's appealing on the frontend.
You know, as Christians, weknow we're going to be married
(09:03):
to Christ, um, but that'sappealing on the front end.
As Christians we know we'regoing to be married to Christ,
right, but that's appealing.
So she liked not Trinity,there's no Trinity.
And then she liked that moralstructure and the appeal to
family unity.
She came from a really roughfamily Both of my parents did,
but really rough, not a good,healthy life.
My grandpa committed suicidewhen she was like 16.
(09:25):
So really always wanted ahealthy family.
So it checked all those boxesfor her.
So we started going and uh, I'dsay when I was young you know I
was I caused trouble in a boyishway but I learned all the
doctrines very well and I couldarticulate things well and so
(09:49):
for many people's eyes I wasprogressing in the faith pretty
well.
My older siblings, they didwhat really every most Mormons
not every most Mormons that I'veseen that will go through this
rebellious phase because theyhave all these rules but there's
no explanation of why there'sno relationship with Christ,
(10:12):
there's no concept of salvation,even to work for it's just like
I'm trying to get to thisheaven at the end of my life,
but it's about I kind of alreadyhave it.
And there's no fear of hell,because hell doesn't exist for
the.
Mormon Hell is a temp they callit spiritual prison and you'll
get out of it.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Okay, so it's almost like a punishment, like a
temporary punishment.
Yes, it's a temporarypunishment.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
If you are like for me, they might tell me that I'm
going to outer darkness, andthat's like for heretics and
Satan.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
But that's like the heretics and satan, okay, but
that's like the worst.
The lowest people of the lowmight go to outer darkness but
they don't use the term hellthey will use it, but they at
least when I was a kid they weresteering away from it.
They said they would write likewhen they would draw out the
plan of salvation on the board.
They would say spiritual prisonand then in parentheses they
(11:05):
would write hell and so they'reusing the word and the concept
to teach really what they, whattheir doctrine is that's another
example of the trying tomasquerade as christian.
So, um, my old I said my oldersiblings they began to rebel and
(11:26):
kind of do what they want and Iwas the golden child for a
couple of years of I'm not doingthat stuff.
Uh, I'm not getting intent andinvolved into being disobedient
and and whatever they're doing.
Um, but as I grew up, my, mybrother and my siblings
influenced me and I was like youknow why not?
(11:46):
And so I pretty quicklyprogressed in this huge
rebellious phase where I was inthe trouble with the law.
I was smoking, I was drinking,I was in a party culture.
My brother was in college andso, even though I was like 17, I
was going and visiting him atcollege and going to college
parties.
I was going and visiting him atcollege and going to college
parties and what happened was Iruined my reputation in the
(12:10):
Mormon church and so theybecause it's all works-based
they hated me in there, like Iwasn't allowed to hang out with
their kids anymore.
I'd be walking down the hallsand get glares.
So I really stopped going asmuch as I could.
My parents forced me to go alot, but whenever I could not go
, I didn't go.
And then, when I was 17, I wentdown to Florida for like a
(12:34):
spring break with my friends,and this is really when
everything changed, where I gotin trouble, and I'd been getting
in trouble for a long time.
But what was really happening isI was blaming other people.
I was saying, oh, you know,this is my friend's fault, this
is my family's fault.
There's no responsibility in mymind, because the Mormon church
(12:57):
taught me I was a good person,I was on path to Godhood.
You know like I'm obeying thelaws and ordinances of the
gospel for the most part, andfor the ones I'm not, I can just
, you know, start doing good andI'll be fine.
So I was a good person.
It was everyone else's faultand we got in trouble with the
law and just the way that ithappened.
I won't go into details.
(13:17):
I don't really like talkingabout this part of my testimony
a lot, but it was my fault.
It was just very clearly myfault.
There was no way for me towiggle out of it, and God used
that to hit me with the factthat other things were my fault,
and so I was going back throughall of the things I had done.
I was like, oh yeah, that wasme too.
(13:39):
That was me too.
That was me too.
And in this car ride home,after I've just been, you know,
in a lot of trouble, um I I saidyou know the phrase in my head
oh I, I am a bad person, I needjesus.
Um, and that's even remarkablein itself.
You know, the mormons teachjesus, but not really in that
(14:01):
way like you need jesus, butit's more like he's a model.
He is, he is in our, ourexample, he's our example.
That's, that's really what theylike to say about him.
And, and some of them will evensay Jesus got married because
marriage is big in the Mormonchurch, and how could he have
left us?
That's, how could he be ourperfect example If you didn't
(14:21):
get married?
Weird, crazy thoughts aboutChrist marrying someone and and
having people who are descendedfrom him here on um on the earth
today, um, but anyway.
So I was like I'm a bad person,I need Jesus.
I started going back to theMormon church and I was re, uh,
(14:46):
rebuilding my reputation alittle bit, and I did that for a
few months and then I was likethis stinks.
You know, I was reallydepressed.
That whole, my whole, really mywhole childhood.
Um, you know, I would.
I would have conversations withGod as a child and be like why
did you make me?
Why'd you make me?
(15:07):
Just to hate me.
Like my life stinks, like I'vesuicidal, wanted to kill myself.
I'd had opportunity to, but bygod's grace, I just didn't.
Um, and so when, when, whenthat happened and I realized
that I was a bad person andwe're back to where you're
recognizing.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I need jesus.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Yes, so when I, when I, when I got to that point and
I started doing the good Mormonthings, I still had no idea what
the gospel was.
I started doing all the goodMormon things and then I was
still miserable.
That's why I brought it up.
I was still depressed.
I was still depressed.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
You're back plugging in at church at this point
trying to go through all the….
Speaker 4 (15:51):
I was doing what I need to do to be happy.
I'm doing all the right things,doing what I need to do to be
happy, like I'm doing all theright things according to what
the mormons would teach.
Okay I should be happy now Ishould be fulfilled.
And then I was like I guess I'mnot, I'm just gonna go back and
start doing all these crazythings again sovereignly.
A friend invited me, like thatweek, to go to hillside and I
started going and it wasimmediately a difference in the
(16:16):
culture that our listeners.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Hillside is a church, a partner to snowbird.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
They've been coming to SWO becoming a snowbird for
since, really since thebeginning, longer than any other
church yeah, um, and thisreally speaks volumes to that
ministry where, when I walkedinto the youth group, all of
these people are people that goto high school with me.
They know me probably morebecause I was hiding what I was
(16:43):
doing from the Mormons, but allthe high schoolers like they go
to school with me.
They like there's rumors, likeeveryone knows exactly what kind
of things I'm doing, and theysee me and they are so excited
that you're there they're, likeyou know, so glad you're here
and I immediately feel loved andwelcomed and I have friends,
(17:05):
and so I just kept going, reallyjust for that reason.
Yeah, um, now Steve Brooks, theyouth pastor uh, awesome man,
love him and respect him so muchand he was very clear to preach
the gospel every Sunday, butthat was when I told you that
buzz would go up, so I'd behearing lots of things that I
(17:25):
liked.
And then, whenever he got intosomething I didn't like or that,
spoke against the Mormon church.
It would just be they don'thave the full revelation.
They don't have the fullrevelation.
So I was sitting in there formonths, you know, listening to
the preaching good preaching,but that counter evangelism is
going off, wow.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
It's so programmed into you at this point.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Yeah, it's like I mean when I memorize scripture.
Scripture speaks to me wheneveryou know.
Temptation comes or situationscome, and those, those phrases
are repeated so much that they,they come to speak to you
instead of you know, likeProverbs says, you know, bind
them on your heart and they'llcome speak to you.
Instead, it was these, theselies that are that are coming to
(18:07):
speak to you.
So around that time we came toSnowbird and you know, this is
where I, this is where I seeGod's sovereignty in all of it.
But I just love this part of itwhere my counselor just felt
the desire, the weekend before Iget there, I'm going to go
research Mormonism and how toshare the gospel with Mormons,
(18:29):
and I mean, what other reasonwould there be except God
sovereignly preparing him tobring the gospel to me?
And he did.
And so I came and, like I said,that Isaiah six story was
really big.
It was like you know, thisisn't the God I worship Really
really important.
The other sermon that Iremember that week was Kahuna.
(18:50):
He actually was preaching asermon on leading a double life,
like saying that you're achristian but living different,
and I and I was like I'mconvicted that's what I'm doing.
I was not what I was doing.
I was not a christian yeah, likeI don't love jesus triple lock,
yeah, and so I raised my handto like respond and get to go
talk, and, um, I started withanother and get to go talk, and
(19:13):
um, I started with anothercounselor.
But my counselor found me.
His name's Matt Anderson.
Um, and he came and found meand I was real emotional and he
was really good to kind of getpast that emotion and to really
just start talking about thedeity of Christ.
And this is this was the real,like real turning point for me.
(19:35):
I don't remember anything hesaid except this one question,
which was, if Jesus had not havebeen God, how would he have
been able to live a sinless life?
And so the only doctrine that Iknew that Christians differed
from Mormons was the Trinity.
That was the only one I reallyknew, and the only doctrine that
I had solid Christians differedfrom Mormons was the Trinity.
I was the only one that Ireally knew, and the only
doctrine that I had solidly inmy mind is that people are
(19:58):
sinful, like I just had that inmy life and that was the one
thing that I had just realized.
I am a bad person, Right, andso that was the exact question
that needed to be asked and Iwas like I don't have an answer
for that, that's a really goodquestion.
I don't have an answer for that, that's a really good question.
I don't have, I need, I need tothink about it.
And so I went back home and Iwas thinking about it and I had
(20:22):
this group of friends that werereally good to me, speaking into
my life and caring about me andpraying for me.
And then I had some Mormonfriends still and my family and
I knew they were on oppositesides.
It was the first time Irealized, like I was going to
the Methodist church, thinkingthis is just something I'm
(20:45):
adding to my faith.
It's like we're on the sameteam and for the first time it
was.
They're different and I've gotto choose.
And the main thing is I need toknow if Jesus is God and I was
trying to figure out how do Itell?
Like, like, if I ask them,they're obviously biased.
I've asked them, they're biased.
(21:05):
And what I came to and this Ithink that this is again just a
sovereign thought that Godbrought to me was I'm going to
read the Bible, because theyboth say they believe the Bible
Mormons don't actually, but theysay they do and whatever the
Bible says about Jesus, that'swhat I'm going to believe.
And so what I started doing isI just Googled scripture that
(21:31):
says Jesus is God, and I wouldread all these articles and find
all the verses and read themall and I'm like, okay, these
say Jesus is God.
And then I Googled verses thatsay Jesus is not God.
And then I looked through allthose and when I read them and
people were saying these saythis, that Jesus is not God.
(21:51):
I read them and I was like youdon't read, well, that's not
what that says.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
That's not what that says.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
In fact, some of these verses that I was reading
as evidence that Jesus was notGod, I was like putting over
here in this category for versesthat say Jesus is God.
Because once I read this incontext, you like this is saying
Jesus is God.
You're confused, you cherrypick this verse out and and you
did not understand it, and sovery quickly.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
When in the mormon church do they use the same
bible that we would use like?
Is there anything added ortaken away, or is it the same?
Speaker 4 (22:27):
well, there's definitely things added.
Uh, first of all, just in thebook of Mormon and the Doctrine
and Covenants, they'll have thisthick book.
That's got.
They'll call it all four.
They've got a name.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
So you've got the King James Bible, the Book of
Mormon, the Law and Covenant orthe Doctrine, and Covenant.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
The four are Old Testament, New Testament.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
And that's King James .
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Yes, that's King James.
And then Book of MormonDoctrine and New Testament.
Okay, and that's King James.
Yes, that King James.
And then book of Mormondoctrine and covenants.
And then there's like a littlebook called the Pearl, of great
price, but we don't need to getinto that.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
That's a different animal, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Okay.
So I was reading King James,okay, and I also had an NIV
Bible that I'd grabbed, but Iwas just reading the Bible and
they've they.
But I was just reading theBible and they've got in their
Bible, in their King James.
They have what they call JosephSmith translations, where he's
very carefully found as manyverses as he could that
disagreed with his doctrine andchanged the wording, and he's
(23:24):
actually even wrote himself intosome prophecies in the Old
Testament.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
So it's not like a footnote.
He changed the actual text.
It is a footnote.
I don't know why it's afootnote he changed the actual
text.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
It is a footnote I don't know why.
It's a footnote okay it doesn'tmake sense to me.
In my mind, you know, it wouldbe like the watchtower, where
they just completely erase it,but they have at least.
When I was a kid, they had theoriginal king james and then
there'd be a little header thereand you'd go down and you'd
read the Joseph Smithtranslation and anytime that you
(23:56):
disagreed with what the Biblesaid, you'd be looking for the
Joseph Smith.
If there was a Joseph Smithtranslation to shed more light
because Joseph Smith had thetrue revelation and I tried to
find passages when I was doingthis that didn't have a Joseph
Smith translation, to try to bemore objective and unbiased.
(24:17):
But pretty quickly I had thishuge list of scripture passages
that talk about Jesus being Godand I came to the conclusion the
Bible says Jesus is God.
Like that's just what it says.
It is very clear.
I spent a ton of time in John.
I spent a lot of time in Isaiah, and that was mainly just
(24:38):
understanding who God is.
You know, I read Isaiah 53.
I read some Psalms, I read someprophecy.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
You read Isaiah 53.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
And our Be Strong conference coming up.
We're going to be in Isaiah.
I mean it's penalsubstitutionary atonement yeah
I'm assuming they totally rejectthat yes, absolutely and you
ended up in isaiah 53.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Yes, yeah, and another one that I really love
and still love to this day just,and I'm excited we're we're
going through genesis, for inour school, uh, where abraham is
goes to sacrifice isaac, andI'd always been confused by that
passage when I read it, becauseI was like there's no concept
of typology or anything likethat in the Mormon church they
(25:21):
don't teach that.
But I always just read.
I was like this seems to beabout Jesus and it absolutely is
, and so I was reading that andI love the past.
What Abraham says to Isaac theLord will provide for himself.
A sacrifice Like that is sogood and it throws all of
(25:43):
man-made religion away.
It's like.
I'm going to do it, I'm going tobring the sacrifice, but I mean
very early on in Scripture.
God is the one who is making away for salvation.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
The point being if I could get your, I would like for
you to speak to this.
Isaac doesn't represent Jesusin the story.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
No, the Ram the Ram.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
The Ram is Jesus.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
We are Isaac.
We are Isaac yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
And how many times, and, and and.
You're coming from the Mormonside, but I'll tell you that and
JB and I are a generation apart, but we're both raised in a
church, in the Christian church,in the evangelical Orthodox
Christian church.
Most of us are taught aschildren that the parallels
Isaac to Jesus, but Jesus isrepresented in the story by the
(26:28):
ram.
We're Isaac.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Yeah, absolutely it's powerful.
Yeah.
And I mean I thought the samething.
As a Mormon, I knew it wasabout Jesus.
I didn't get you know thedistinction there, but it was
clear enough that I was likethis passage is confusing to me,
it doesn't fit with my theology, and so I spent time in there
again Colossians, Hebrews andjust tons of evidence.
(26:50):
And so there I was, and so Iwas like, okay, Jesus is God,
that's what the Bible says.
And then I was just likelooking kind of like look around
, like what next?
Like what do I do now?
Like what is?
Now?
I know the truth, so I'm goingto stop going to the Mormon
church, All right?
Like how does my life reallychange from this truth?
And you know, talking to myfriends, I was going to a small
(27:11):
group with them that they met onSundays and I was like what's
going on?
Like what do I need to do?
Is there something I'm missing?
I feel like there's somethingI'm missing still.
And they're like, oh, you needto get saved.
And this is what I was talkingabout.
I was like what does that mean?
And they tried to explain it tome, me, they may have explained
(27:32):
it perfectly well, I meanthey're high school students.
They may not have done it well,but either way it was over my
head, like I did not get it.
There was no framework in mymind of I have to submit to
christ and be born again andhave the holy spirit come in me
(27:53):
and be saved from my sins.
That was just not a concept,because there is no hell,
there's no real lastingpunishment.
And so I was like, all right,I'll try, Let me try to get
saved.
And so I'd go try to get saved.
God saved me, just praying overand over.
And God saved me and I'd reallythrough that study habit and
(28:14):
even continuing on.
I just started reading theBible a lot, and so I'd come
home it was not my senior yearI'd come home from school and I
wouldn't do any of my homework.
I would read the Bible and Iwould listen to the songs that
we sang at Snowbird and I wouldcry and I would pray.
I'd be like I need to get saved, cry and I would pray and be
like I need to get saved.
And I was just doing that overand over and over again.
I was not getting saved yet, butlike I was still, you know,
(28:36):
just looking and seeking, andone night, just in my room, by
myself, that same pattern ofjust reading, worshiping,
praying.
I was just like all right, likehere, here I am like this.
This God brought me to thismoment of humility where I was
(28:56):
like, okay, I do not understand.
I don't understand anything.
I don't understand what'ssupposed to do.
I don't understand whatsalvation is.
I don't understand any of this.
I understand one thing Jesus isGod.
And I submit to that.
And that was when I it was.
I felt like I was hit like a bya load of bricks, like in a in
(29:19):
a good way, if that's possibleLike I felt the spirit come in
and I felt new life and I waslike, okay, I don't I still
don't know what salvation is,but it happened, it just
happened.
Like I could not articulateanything, anything other to my
friends, I just told him hey, Igot saved.
I don't know what that means.
But like I'm saved now and thatthat was like that's the end of
like me coming out ofChristianity it's so amazing.
(29:42):
Or coming out of Mormonism toChristianity, and it's so
amazing.
And then immediately, what I,what I think is even maybe not
more gracious, but just evenmore wonderful to me it just
keeps getting more wonderful theolder I get.
God has always had, with veryfew exceptions, people speaking
truth into my lives since thatmoment of me becoming a
(30:03):
Christian.
So I had those friends who werewith me and I was in their
small group and so for the firstyear of me being Christian
really more than a year, andeven sometimes still there's
hidden false doctrines or falsethoughts that are that are just
like tucked away.
But especially that first year,we'd be in our small group and
(30:24):
I'd be saying, oh yeah,something, something, something
premortal existence, and I'd getlike the head turns from
everyone in the small group likewhat are you talking about?
And I'd have to be like, oh,that's a Mormon thing, I guess
I've got to, I've got to unlearnthat.
So I have to throw away.
I had to throw away all mydoctrine, because it really is.
It just doesn't fit, and sothat was that first year.
(30:46):
And then I came into old schooland that was probably the most
important just just three months, one of the most important
three months of my life.
That's where I learned aboutChristian community what it
actually is like, that it's notperfect and that I'm going to
get annoyed with otherChristians and there's like like
we have to apologize andreconcile, like in my mind at
(31:08):
that point it'd been like nowthat I'm a Christian, everything
is perfect and we're all happyand love each other all the time
, and that's just not true, youknow, we still have sin and I
learned.
This is when I learned thosedisciplines and I learned more
theology, but I learned thosedisciplines.
This is really one of the mostlife-giving things that's
happened to me since becoming aChristian is practicing
(31:32):
scripture, memorization forlarge chunks of scripture.
That was when I think it wasmaybe something Zach had said,
or maybe Brian Kaufman, and Iwas like, yeah, I do love
scripture, I want to write it onmy heart.
And so I memorized the book of1 John.
It was just one of the shortestbooks.
I'm going to memorize that, andwhen I say memorize, I couldn't
(31:53):
give it off to you right now,but it's like I spent a long
time reading those words overand over and over again and
getting them into my heart andthe word just bringing me life,
and this is what I really love.
You know, for cults, your mindis being shaped.
(32:14):
You are being taught to thinkin certain modes, taught to
think in certain patterns, andas I memorized scripture and
meditated on scripture, I couldliterally feel my brain
beginning to work.
I feel, like ephesians says, betransformed by the renewal of
(32:37):
your mind, like I could feelthat happening in real time
because I was like I immediatelyas soon as I became christian,
I read through the bible inthree months.
I was like reading lots ofscripture.
I started to memorize and itwas like the word had that
effect.
I was washing myself with theword and it was so good for just
the way that I was thinking andthe way that I was processing,
(32:59):
and there were so many doctrinesI needed to unlearn.
And then I worked my firstsummer and I learned.
Really, the big takeaway frommy first summer is and you may
remember this, brody I learnedthe weight of being a teacher,
because it wasn't a huge issue,but I taught something that
(33:20):
wasn't true to campers.
You remember this, don't I?
I taught, I told a bunch ofcampers that babies go to hell
and it's kind of ringing a belland one of the kids had like,
had lost like they'd lost asibling.
Yeah, like they're miscarriageand there was uh, I mean they
(33:41):
were.
They're upset, like like notjust upset because I taught
something that wasn't true, butlike it was a, a lie that was
causing them grief, hurtful,yeah, and and this is like this
was.
This was the last week of campand I heard I was in trouble and
I was like, am I in trouble?
And you came and told me what Idid and I was like immediately
(34:02):
started crying because it justthe weight of the fact that I
not only do I know truth now,but I have the power to preach
the gospel, and there's a hugeweight for that.
And if we make people stumble,like there's there's judgment
(34:24):
for that, there's a fear forthat, and like that was really
big for me and, as someone whois a teacher now, like that was
a very, very important thing forme to realize.
And so I worked several summers.
The other big thing when I leftSnowbird, I realized that
ministry at Snowbird was really,at least for the staff like the
(34:46):
summer staff is really kind ofeasy because someone's always
telling you what to do and whereto be and if you want to be
obedient, it's easy becauseeveryone's doing it.
And then I left and I realizedhow important the church is,
because I went to a place thatthere wasn't.
I couldn't find a church and Iand I looked, I was trying hard
(35:09):
and trying to find friends.
I couldn't find them and I andI started to fall into sin.
I was still a very youngChristian.
Um started to fall into sin andI moved over specifically to
another part of uh, into anothercity, to, to, to go live with a
friend I do.
I knew like I need to get outof this.
I need community around me andthis friend let me live with him
(35:33):
.
And and I was going back intodepression because I was, you
know, no Christian is happy insin and he just said hey, get up
, you know, come with me andwe're going to go share the
gospel.
And that was a really sweettime of me just kind of
following him around andlearning how to be obedient in
(35:55):
the real world.
And so evangelism is veryimportant to me.
You know I've always, eversince I became a Christian,
passionate about bringing thegospel to people.
But it's especially valuable tome because I know from that
experience like no one is happywhen they're not living their
(36:17):
intended purpose and ourintended purpose for us as
Christians right now we need tobe worshiping God ourselves, but
bringing other people toworship him, and that was really
really good.
So then I lived there for alittle bit.
I came back here.
I was still trying to figureout what to do.
You know what direction to go.
(36:38):
I always want to be in missions, but God taught me at that time
I needed to learn how to befaithful where I was and to be
working wherever I was.
And so I came back here and Iworked the best I could.
I was going to school to be ateacher because I just thought,
you know, this is what I lovedoing and this is what I have
(37:01):
experience doing.
I think I do it well.
I think I do it better thanother things that I do.
I became a teacher.
I worked one last summer.
I met my wife.
That was a huge blessing,obviously.
Then we moved over toStatesville and had a sweet time
there with building goodrelationships.
Right now we're over inFayetteville working at a
(37:22):
Christian school in the Bibledepartment, and you know our
goal long term is to bemissionaries.
But because we're trying to befaithful wherever we are, we
just we're just always findingwork to do wherever we go, that
needs to get done, and, and, andtrying to do that work, and I
always have a hard time ending atestimony.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Well, let me, um, there's a couple of things that
uh, right there at the end thatpopped into my mind because you
always have been veryintentional about evangelism.
When we first started snowbird,you know we would, we would
load up, uh, we'd take all ofour staff and we would go to
(38:03):
downtown ashville and we wouldwalk the streets and share the
gospel and our staff would be 20people.
We could do it in a couple ofvans and uh, but everybody would
go and and we would, we would,we would say, hey, if you're not
comfortable, walk along withsomeone, that is.
And we would just do streetevangelism, just sharing the
gospel, people in that context.
(38:24):
And so, um, the staff grew, itgot so big it got logistically
impossible.
We shifted our schedule.
The schedule used to run runSunday to Friday.
We would spend all day Saturdayin Asheville.
And then we shifted the campschedule Monday to Saturday so
everybody could worship onSunday.
And we planted a church.
It just changed.
It got very difficult to take.
(38:45):
It was easy to take 20 people,it was hard to take 120.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And because we'd feed them, we would all stay over
there, we'd crash, we would campout and sleep in people's yards
family members of mine thatwere close to that area.
So you, you pick that up, yourevitalize that and and it and
it's, it's continued to beongoing.
There's been guys that havecarried that mantle and so we've
always got snowbird peoplegoing into downtown Asheville in
(39:11):
the summers and yeah, I wasactually going to say your last
summer was my first summer and Ithought that was cool.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
I remember you taking groups of people to Asheville
and just street evangelize.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
When I really went, that was I got it from old
school Cause you guys still didit, yeah, in old school.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Old school was a program that that the Institute
has sort of displaced.
We merged our intern programand the old school program into
one, but the old school programwas similar to the Institute.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
Yeah, we would go do it.
I remember going to Ashevillethe first time I had a journal
of all the people that I spoketo that week and it was very
forming for me when I left andstruggled to be obedient in the
real world and had to figurethat out.
(40:00):
The whole reason that I wantedto revitalize it is because,
like I don't want anyone tostruggle like that, I want them
to learn how to go talk to realpeople, cause talking to campers
like they're expecting you totalk to.
Jesus.
They want.
Some of them want you to, andyou know.
But if respecting you to talkabout Jesus, some of them want
you to.
But if you go to Asheville,it's not like that.
This is just real people andthey're strange people.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
There's all sorts of.
There's the sticker KeepAsheville Weird.
It's on all the Subarus that aredriving around town and
Volkswagen vans.
That mindset, too, is why, youknow, I I've I brought Josh into
a couple of conversations.
I we had a Mormon family thatstarted coming to Red Oak
through relational connectionwith people in our community.
(40:45):
They had moved to the area,they were attending the LDS
church and, uh, the mom gotsaved.
We baptized her, grafted theminto our body, got them into
solid discipleship program andthey had one of the older
children in that family waspreparing for mission and we
went to lunch and I asked you tocome.
Yeah, I remember that, yeah, man, and you can pray for him.
(41:07):
He hasn't embraced the gospelbut he walked away from
Mormonism.
He's just kind of floating.
He's in a non-gravity place,you know, nothing's grounding
him but um, but but two thingsthat I'd like to end on one,
could you?
We joke around here, people,people will have for years have
(41:27):
said we'll say that snowbird's acult, you know, and it's, it's,
it's cheap, lazy criticism bylocal people.
I say it's cheap and it's, it's, it's cheap, lazy criticism by
local people.
I say it's cheap and it's lazy.
It's cheap because you can sayanything and some people will.
If they don't even maybebelieve it, they'll raise an
eyebrow and go maybe there'ssomething to that.
(41:47):
So it's cheap, it's.
It takes.
It takes energy, intellectualbandwidth, articulation to speak
truth.
It's very cheap and easy tospeak lies.
So I try to tell my kids and thefolks at our church and our
staff when people say ifsomebody says no, we're just a
(42:07):
cult man, that's cheap, thosewords are cheap, that's just
lazy.
And it's lazy in that all yougot to do is it's not hard to
figure out if something's a cult.
Ask them what they believeabout the deity of Christ, the
personhood of Jesus, the work ofJesus, press into Christology.
That's ultimately what broughtyou to Christ and removed you
from the Mormon church.
It was the person and thepersonhood, the identity, the
(42:30):
work of Jesus.
And so how would you do ifsomebody said to you well, what
is a cult?
How would you define it?
Cause I'll a lot of times I'llsay we're not a cult, we don't
even meet the criteria of a cult.
We worship Jesus.
Um, what, what?
What is a cult?
Because you, you said you namedthree or four different, four
or five different religiousaffiliations and refer to them
(42:52):
as cults, which all I'm inagreement with.
How would you define it briefly?
Speaker 4 (42:57):
There's kind of the Christian definition and then
the secular definition, andthat's, I think, where people
get confused, and I mean, we'reneither.
But the Christian definition isjust that, like someone who
takes one of the core doctrinesof Christ and perverts them and
preaches a false gospel.
So jehovah, witness um andmormonism they both deny the
(43:20):
deity of christ.
Seventh-day adventism what dothey deny?
Or, uh, they really are, what'stheir big?
They're legalistic, they'reman-made religion, they they
think they are, yeah, they thinkthey are righteous through
obeying literally obeying thelaw.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
And Christian science , like they really deny all
truth as a concept and like webelieve.
You know we believe truth isthat which corresponds to
reality.
Don't even believe in reality.
It's like everything isfleeting and fake.
So how can you talk aboutanything in Christ without the
concept of truth?
It's just nonsense.
(43:56):
And then from like maybe thesocial one, it's still still
Christian.
It would be like the thingsthat I would look for, other
than doctrine, are things likecontrolling whether people are
allowed to leave.
Is is definitely a big one andwe really aren't like that.
Like Christian, christian,solid Christian churches
(44:21):
practice church discipline where, if you do not agree with these
things and you do not practiceChristian holiness, we invite
you to leave and go somewherewhere you can pretend to be a
Christian somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
It's the opposite of making you stay.
Yes, I mean yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
If you don't want to be with us.
You know, as John says, theywere of us, but they went out,
went out from us and we welcomethat For a cult.
They are grasping souls andlocking them in as good as they
can.
They prey on weak-minded people.
You know, we bring the gospel.
The gospel has great power topeople who are hurting, who are
(45:01):
weak emotionally and goingthrough pain Like there's.
That's just there's a lot ofhistory in people who are humble
coming to faith.
But cults specifically pray onpeople who are the weak-minded
people who can be easily ledastray and controlled.
(45:22):
And so if you find a group thatis determining what someone is
allowed to think, to be part ofthe group in terms of like we're
going to shape the way that youthink in a restrictive like you
can't think critically.
That's the main thing.
So when I came to Snowbird andI started talking to you guys, I
(45:48):
would hear things like this iswhat I think read the Bible and
find out what it says.
And there's always this appealto a higher authority.
That's not human and aunwillingness for a human to
shape someone's mind too muchLike.
We want to speak truth intopeople's lives, but I don't
(46:09):
necessarily want everyone tothink the exact same way.
I think I want them to thinkthe way the Bible thinks, and so
I'm going to tell them what Ithink the Bible thinks and then
encourage them to read the exactsame way.
I think I want them to thinkthe way the Bible thinks, and so
I'm going to tell them what Ithink the Bible thinks and then
encourage them to read the Biblemore.
And so when I hear you guyspreach I heard this a lot when I
was first there is thosewarnings, hey if you don't agree
with what I say, check my work,kind of thing.
(46:31):
So those are the big things.
So letting people read the wordfor themselves and interact
with god and have a personalrelationship with him, and not
controlling the mind it's freeto be shaped by christ.
And then, uh, having gooddoctrine.
And then the fact that we'renot clutching anyone and begging
, we're not looking for numbersLike the church, is Christ's
(46:54):
decision, and if you're notwalking with Christ, we call you
to repent, repent and believe.
But if that's not something youwant, then you're not one of us
and until you are, you need towalk away.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
Yeah, that's good, that's helpful.
Last thing what has this alldone?
I mean I wanted you to go.
We, we, jb and I, had talkedabout this.
We wanted you to go throughthat entire story up to where
you are today, cause I wantedpeople to see.
This all happened over a decadeago and this trajectory you're
on has you teaching the Bible ata, at a Christian school?
(47:34):
That's a snowbird partner.
Um, I mean, you are as you are,as much you you can't get any
further into Christianitybecause you're you're making
disciples.
We have a video of you.
A lot of people know thatthere's an area in the Himalayas
that we do a lot of work and alot of us have been to that area
.
Is that we do a lot of work anda lot of us have been to that
(47:57):
area.
We have a video where you andanother guy from this ministry
were doing a trek and ended upsharing the gospel with a group
of village leaders.
It was all men and boys fromthat village.
That's one of the coolestthings I've ever watched.
I've showed that before in a, ina more closed setting here,
where the Himalayan.
It looks like you're sitting onthe precipice, like on the edge
(48:19):
of a cliff bigger than the GrandCanyon, behind you Himalayas
and all these guys are sittingaround crisscross applesauce and
you're sharing the gospel andyou get to that point where you
say that Jesus rose from thedead and they just freaked out.
They're just chattering andgoing crazy and I'm like this
dude was in darkness under falsedoctrine, false teaching, and
(48:44):
now he's shining the light toothers in a far place.
I want people to hear thetrajectory of your life and now
you are doing what I think isthe most faithful and noble work
a person can do.
You're instructing and teachingthe next generation, which is
the church, which is obviouslywhat we're passionate about and
student ministry, but teachingthem the Bible.
(49:06):
Not just giving them a goodtime, but teaching them the
Bible.
What has all that done to therelationships with your family?
Not your wife, amazing your,your family, your, your mom,
your siblings, like, like that,that side.
So they're, by the way, they'relocal to this area.
Speaker 4 (49:25):
Yeah, they moved here right before I left.
Um, at least my, my mom and mystepdad did.
Most of my.
The rest of my family is stillin Georgia, but yeah.
So when I first became aChristian, I was very nervous
about approaching my family atall with this.
And I didn't.
I didn't want to and I was.
(49:45):
I was praying about it and myyouth pastor had had me write
down my testimony this is likethe first three months of me
being a Christian and so heasked me to write down my
testimony to share at the youthgroup.
And, uh, my mom had just goneto my room for something and
found it on my desk and read it.
(50:06):
And I just came into my roomand she was sitting there crying
and said is this really whatyou believe?
And that was like you know, Ididn't want to have.
I don't want to hurt my mom,even even though this is true.
I don't want to hurt anyone'sfeelings.
But I had to make a decision tobe like am I gonna, am I going
(50:28):
to compromise on truth to makesomeone feel better, or am I
going to preach the gospel andhope that they repent and
believe in trusting in Christ?
And so I was like, yeah, that'swhat I believe, that's the
truth.
And so, really, god forced meinto sharing the gospel with my
family.
(50:48):
And since that conversation,that first year that I was there
that was my senior year I hadtons of conversations with my
mom and with my siblings aboutthe gospel and their response
that year was anger.
It was.
You know, you are the youngestone, you're arrogant and I mean
(51:13):
I'm a little arrogant.
You're arrogant and I mean I'ma little arrogant.
Uh, you're arrogant, you know.
You're just, you're on yourhigh horse and just telling us
you know that you're better thanus and I was like that's not
what I'm saying at all.
And so throughout the years Iwould kind of go through cycles
of being really bold and vocaland telling them the truth,
(51:34):
calling them to repent, talkingabout the deity of Christ, and
then trying to balance that withtimes where I would pull back
and just talk to them about life, just hang out with them and
try to keep that relationshipinstead of just hit them over
(51:54):
and over again.
And so I've been a Christianfor 16 years now, so that's what
it's been up until really thepast three months.
And then I don't want to givetoo many details here, but I had
found out that my stepdad hadhad a cancer and that they'd
(52:15):
known about it for a long timeand didn't tell me.
Because in my mind they didn'ttell me because they don't
really like talking aboutserious things, they just kind
of want to have they were,they're optimistic in their, in
their own mind, and but for me Ifelt very convicted because I
was like no, they really aredying.
Like Like, even if this, like Ithink the cancer is dealt with,
but even if it is like they'redying, hell is on its way for
(52:40):
them.
And I felt very convicted and Iwas like praying through.
I think I need to just only talkto them about the gospel, like
I'm not, I don't have time towaste, and so, um, trying to
communicate with that to myfamily really didn't go well.
Um, essentially they were like,uh, you know, I was like I
(53:04):
don't want to talk to you unlessabout the gospel, and
essentially they were like, okay, we don't want to talk to you.
Then you know, my they'reassaulting my character.
My brother had, like I makeposts on Facebook that are, you
know, preaching the gospel.
My brother commented onsomething trying to assault my
character.
I had to delete it and blockhim because I didn't trust him
to keep private things private.
(53:24):
And my mother the last words Ihave in a text from my mom are
her calling me a zealot of Satan.
Because I told him hey, I loveJesus and you do not, and that
is offensive to me.
It's offensive to me that youdo know, because Romans says you
know, you know who God is andyou refuse to worship him.
(53:47):
This is the thing I care aboutmost in the world, the thing I
love most in the world, morethan I love you, and I'm calling
you you know.
You need to repent and trust inthat.
And if you don't want any partof that like I'm not interested
really in talking about anythingelse I want you to know this
truth.
And so they're.
They were pushed off and we'relike you know, we're, we're done
(54:09):
, we're.
So we're pretty much officiallyestranged.
For me, the door's open.
As soon as they want to talkabout the gospel, I'll be there.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
I'll be there to bring the gospel to them and
tell them the truth and we'rehere and you've moved away, but
they live in earshot of wherewe're sitting right now and I've
told you I'll drive over thereany day, any minute, to do
anything we can to minister, andI would ask our listeners to,
even right now, pause and justhit pause and pray for Josh's
(54:41):
family, cause I believe they'regoing to come to faith in Jesus.
Um man, thank, thank you, thankyou, thank you.
I've I've wanted to do this forso long and I've mentioned it
to you several times and it'slike but I didn't want it, I
didn't want to do it and not doit right.
I wanted to be able to sit down, carve out a whole morning, not
getting it, take some breaks,not getting a hurry, um, so I
(55:04):
really appreciate it yeah, mypleasure it.
I will tell you this having beenin ministry for now three
decades, um, I and I would saythis, of all four people behind
the camera, in front of thecamera, um, y'all are what I
would call trophies of ministry.
Like, there are those storieswhere I'm like, if, if, if, I'm
(55:28):
gone dead out of the picture andsomebody needs to represent the
work that has been done here,it's an honor that you two would
would represent that and I'mjust grateful for the gospel in
y'all's lives.
So I appreciate you coming onand, uh, go get some quesadillas
.
Yes, and you make quesadillas,yeah, they're good they're
(55:50):
amazing and you're going downthe river today yeah, never gets
old, awesome man thanks thanksfor listening to.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
No sanity required.
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No sanity required.
What's up, NSR?
Welcome back to this week'sepisode.
This is going to be the parttwo of the Josh Haskell
interview.
So if you haven't listened tothe previous episode, I highly
encourage that you go back andlisten to that, because we are
picking up right where we leftoff.
We just paused on ourconversation and then picked it
(00:21):
right back up.
So if you haven't listened tothe part one, you might be a
little bit confused.
But this is more of Josh'stestimony kind of his upbringing
and how he came to faith and sosuper encouraging, so cool to
just hear and as I was sittingthrough and just listening to
(00:41):
his story, I was just so excitedto share this with you guys and
to share his story.
It is probably one of myfavorite episodes, Definitely up
there.
It's so interesting, so cooland I just want to thank Josh
again for coming on and justsharing his story and sharing
(01:02):
close and intimate and hardthings that he's gone through.
But just how the Lord has usedhim and worked through him is
incredible.
So I just want to thank Joshagain and I hope you guys enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Welcome to no Sanity Required welcome to no sanity
required from the ministry ofsnowbird wilderness outfitters.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
A podcast about the bible culture and stories from
around the globe everybody good,yep, um, okay, yeah, let's dive
right in where we left off.
Uh, your story starting withthat.
So you're?
You don't remember this.
You're a four-year-old kid, butyour family wasn't Mormon.
Mormon missionaries showed upat your door.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Would you say your family just like?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
were you guys involved with another religion
before, or just yes, I actuallydo want to back up even further,
because there's a few thingsthat I want people to learn from
my story, mainly because thereare things that I learned from
my story, from my story, mainlybecause there are things that I
learned from my story, and thefirst one is that without God's
sovereign will, there's no waythat I would have been saved,
(02:13):
there's no way I would have evenheard the gospel without God
sovereignly guiding that.
The other things that I reallylove from my story and it
sometimes it seems like it's adifferent person's story and I'm
like amazed at it is, um, justthe power of God's word to save
(02:35):
people and and the power oftruth, the ability of truth to
shine in a dark space and howfar and how, how, just how God's
word is able to give life isjust amazing to me.
After I get saved and we'llmaybe get into that One thing
(02:59):
that God has taught me is justthe power because I didn't
understand this, but as a mormonbut the power of there are
disciplines as a christian, onceyou, once you are saved, not
legalism, but once you are saved, there are powerful disciplines
to give the christian life andto sanctify them and to make
(03:20):
them happy, not to burden themdown, but that white yolk is
there and so good, and then,through it all is just the
glorious to god, because, again,there was.
There's no way.
So for for me to go back?
Um, start with my, my dad's side.
Um, his dad, my grandpa, he wasactually a christian scientist,
(03:47):
which is a different cult.
They're basically, uh,buddhists with christian
language.
They deny reality, they denytruth, uh, very gnostic, and the
flesh is bad and the spirit isgood.
If you're sick it's because youlack faith.
(04:08):
Um, so already a very poorunderstanding of truth, um, and
on my mother's side they werecatholic, but the hippie
movement strongly influenced allof the women on my mom's side
of the family, all my aunts andmy mom.
(04:30):
They were like now, if you goto Asheville and you ask them
what they believe in, they mightthrow out that thing.
I'm really spiritual, like thatvague, nothing meaning thing.
I believe that spirits existand I don't know there's nothing
else there.
So they were all like that, andmy mom will talk about these
spiritual experiences.
(04:52):
You have like visions and andencounters with satan, and so
very spiritual, um, but not alot of big understanding.
And so my parents got married.
I'm the youngest of three.
My parents got divorced when mymom was pregnant with me and
(05:20):
then my dad actually later, whenI was maybe like 12, he became
a Seventh-day Adventist.
Like 12, he became aseventh-day adventist.
Um, so really I come from atradition of man-centered
religions, uh, and really we alldo, but it's there like it's
one cult.
If it wasn't one cult, it wasanother.
Like you, we had like a youknow.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
christ.
Seventh-day, Adventist, Mormonyeah.
Latter-day Saints yeah.
All of that in your immediatefamily.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Yep, and then even the Catholicism and the New Age
and New Age Wow.
And that New Age is really theMormonism.
Mormonism is shifting andadapting and it's becoming more
New Age and universalistic.
And that's when it appealed tomy mom.
So my mom the way that she'lldescribe it is she was going,
(06:12):
she went to lots of churches,she just loved going to church
and she went to all of thembecause she was spiritual.
But she'll just say this thedoctrine I never understood was
the Trinity.
I asked a Catholic priest toexplain it to me and he told me
to shut up and stop askingquestions, which probably
happened, I don't know Um.
And so she never believed inthe Trinity and that was her big
(06:33):
thing.
She, she always loved going tochurch but didn't have good
theology, clearly, um.
So she married my stepdad andthey, when they got married,
we're like we need to.
And it's funny because it justreminds me so much of what Paul
says People will look for peopleto tickle their ears and they
said we need to find a churchthat we like, that teach it,
(06:57):
that we both really like.
And it wasn't.
We need to find it.
I mean, christians might saythat, but when they, when they
say it, what they mean is weneed to find a good church,
church that teaches the Bible,church that teaches the word,
church that holds us accountable.
But they really meant we needto find a church that suits our
preferences.
And so they.
I remember going to a Lutheranchurch and a Catholic church and
(07:20):
a Methodist church when I wasreally young, four years old,
and then the Mormons came to ourdoor and that was the doctrine,
the doctrine of the Trinity isreally what locked in for my mom
.
She was like she said I hadthis list of questions and I was
waiting for someone to answerthem all, the same way that I
(07:41):
answered them.
And that was the church that Iwas going to go to.
And one of the big ones was Idon't believe in the them.
And that was the church that Iwas going to go to.
And one of the big ones was Idon't believe in the Trinity.
And they were just like oh well, neither do we.
And there was you know, oh well,we can be happy together
because neither, none of usbelieve in the Trinity, the
other things that appealed toher.
I mean she did want us.
You know, they're both raisedchristian.
(08:02):
My stepdad was raised catholicin a catholic school, so strong
moral, like foundation therestill, and in both mormonism
like there is rules, there'slike a rigid moral structure,
and they liked that as well.
They liked one of the mainappeals that the mormons will
(08:22):
give is this tie to family unity, and one of their doctrines in
that eternal progression of youbeing a God is you will be a God
with your family forever.
When you marry your wife in thetemple.
You are sealed together foreternity and so it's not till
death do us part.
(08:43):
It's beyond.
For eternity.
Yeah, we are married foreternity and so it's not till
death, do us part, it's beyondeternity.
Yeah, we are married foreternity, um, so that's one of
their big things too, that they,they appeal, and I mean there's
a part of that that at least,if you have a good marriage,
it's like, well, yeah, I, I'dlove to be with my wife forever,
like that.
That's appealing on the frontend.
You know, as Christians, weknow we're going to be married
(09:03):
to Christ, um, but that'sappealing on the front end.
As Christians we know we'regoing to be married to Christ,
right, but that's appealing.
So she liked not Trinity,there's no Trinity.
And then she liked that moralstructure and the appeal to
family unity.
She came from a really roughfamily Both of my parents did,
but really rough, not a good,healthy life.
My grandpa committed suicidewhen she was like 16.
(09:25):
So really always wanted ahealthy family.
So it checked all those boxesfor her.
So we started going and uh, I'dsay when I was young you know I
was I caused trouble in a boyishway but I learned all the
doctrines very well and I couldarticulate things well and so
(09:49):
for many people's eyes I wasprogressing in the faith pretty
well.
My older siblings, they didwhat really every most Mormons
not every most Mormons that I'veseen that will go through this
rebellious phase because theyhave all these rules but there's
no explanation of why there'sno relationship with Christ,
(10:12):
there's no concept of salvation,even to work for it's just like
I'm trying to get to thisheaven at the end of my life,
but it's about I kind of alreadyhave it.
And there's no fear of hell,because hell doesn't exist for
the.
Mormon Hell is a temp they callit spiritual prison and you'll
get out of it.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Okay, so it's almost like a punishment, like a
temporary punishment.
Yes, it's a temporarypunishment.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
If you are like for me, they might tell me that I'm
going to outer darkness, andthat's like for heretics and
Satan.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
But that's like the heretics and satan, okay, but
that's like the worst.
The lowest people of the lowmight go to outer darkness but
they don't use the term hellthey will use it, but they at
least when I was a kid they weresteering away from it.
They said they would write likewhen they would draw out the
plan of salvation on the board.
They would say spiritual prisonand then in parentheses they
(11:05):
would write hell and so they'reusing the word and the concept
to teach really what they, whattheir doctrine is that's another
example of the trying tomasquerade as christian.
So, um, my old I said my oldersiblings they began to rebel and
(11:26):
kind of do what they want and Iwas the golden child for a
couple of years of I'm not doingthat stuff.
Uh, I'm not getting intent andinvolved into being disobedient
and and whatever they're doing.
Um, but as I grew up, my, mybrother and my siblings
influenced me and I was like youknow why not?
(11:46):
And so I pretty quicklyprogressed in this huge
rebellious phase where I was inthe trouble with the law.
I was smoking, I was drinking,I was in a party culture.
My brother was in college andso, even though I was like 17, I
was going and visiting him atcollege and going to college
parties.
I was going and visiting him atcollege and going to college
parties and what happened was Iruined my reputation in the
(12:10):
Mormon church and so theybecause it's all works-based
they hated me in there, like Iwasn't allowed to hang out with
their kids anymore.
I'd be walking down the hallsand get glares.
So I really stopped going asmuch as I could.
My parents forced me to go alot, but whenever I could not go
, I didn't go.
And then, when I was 17, I wentdown to Florida for like a
(12:34):
spring break with my friends,and this is really when
everything changed, where I gotin trouble, and I'd been getting
in trouble for a long time.
But what was really happening isI was blaming other people.
I was saying, oh, you know,this is my friend's fault, this
is my family's fault.
There's no responsibility in mymind, because the Mormon church
(12:57):
taught me I was a good person,I was on path to Godhood.
You know like I'm obeying thelaws and ordinances of the
gospel for the most part, andfor the ones I'm not, I can just
, you know, start doing good andI'll be fine.
So I was a good person.
It was everyone else's faultand we got in trouble with the
law and just the way that ithappened.
I won't go into details.
(13:17):
I don't really like talkingabout this part of my testimony
a lot, but it was my fault.
It was just very clearly myfault.
There was no way for me towiggle out of it, and God used
that to hit me with the factthat other things were my fault,
and so I was going back throughall of the things I had done.
I was like, oh yeah, that wasme too.
(13:39):
That was me too.
That was me too.
And in this car ride home,after I've just been, you know,
in a lot of trouble, um I I saidyou know the phrase in my head
oh I, I am a bad person, I needjesus.
Um, and that's even remarkablein itself.
You know, the mormons teachjesus, but not really in that
(14:01):
way like you need jesus, butit's more like he's a model.
He is, he is in our, ourexample, he's our example.
That's, that's really what theylike to say about him.
And, and some of them will evensay Jesus got married because
marriage is big in the Mormonchurch, and how could he have
left us?
That's, how could he be ourperfect example If you didn't
(14:21):
get married?
Weird, crazy thoughts aboutChrist marrying someone and and
having people who are descendedfrom him here on um on the earth
today, um, but anyway.
So I was like I'm a bad person,I need Jesus.
I started going back to theMormon church and I was re, uh,
(14:46):
rebuilding my reputation alittle bit, and I did that for a
few months and then I was likethis stinks.
You know, I was reallydepressed.
That whole, my whole, really mywhole childhood.
Um, you know, I would.
I would have conversations withGod as a child and be like why
did you make me?
Why'd you make me?
(15:07):
Just to hate me.
Like my life stinks, like I'vesuicidal, wanted to kill myself.
I'd had opportunity to, but bygod's grace, I just didn't.
Um, and so when, when, whenthat happened and I realized
that I was a bad person andwe're back to where you're
recognizing.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I need jesus.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Yes, so when I, when I, when I got to that point and
I started doing the good Mormonthings, I still had no idea what
the gospel was.
I started doing all the goodMormon things and then I was
still miserable.
That's why I brought it up.
I was still depressed.
I was still depressed.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
You're back plugging in at church at this point
trying to go through all the….
Speaker 4 (15:51):
I was doing what I need to do to be happy.
I'm doing all the right things,doing what I need to do to be
happy, like I'm doing all theright things according to what
the mormons would teach.
Okay I should be happy now Ishould be fulfilled.
And then I was like I guess I'mnot, I'm just gonna go back and
start doing all these crazythings again sovereignly.
A friend invited me, like thatweek, to go to hillside and I
started going and it wasimmediately a difference in the
(16:16):
culture that our listeners.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Hillside is a church, a partner to snowbird.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
They've been coming to SWO becoming a snowbird for
since, really since thebeginning, longer than any other
church yeah, um, and thisreally speaks volumes to that
ministry where, when I walkedinto the youth group, all of
these people are people that goto high school with me.
They know me probably morebecause I was hiding what I was
(16:43):
doing from the Mormons, but allthe high schoolers like they go
to school with me.
They like there's rumors, likeeveryone knows exactly what kind
of things I'm doing, and theysee me and they are so excited
that you're there they're, likeyou know, so glad you're here
and I immediately feel loved andwelcomed and I have friends,
(17:05):
and so I just kept going, reallyjust for that reason.
Yeah, um, now Steve Brooks, theyouth pastor uh, awesome man,
love him and respect him so muchand he was very clear to preach
the gospel every Sunday, butthat was when I told you that
buzz would go up, so I'd behearing lots of things that I
(17:25):
liked.
And then, whenever he got intosomething I didn't like or that,
spoke against the Mormon church.
It would just be they don'thave the full revelation.
They don't have the fullrevelation.
So I was sitting in there formonths, you know, listening to
the preaching good preaching,but that counter evangelism is
going off, wow.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
It's so programmed into you at this point.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Yeah, it's like I mean when I memorize scripture.
Scripture speaks to me wheneveryou know.
Temptation comes or situationscome, and those, those phrases
are repeated so much that they,they come to speak to you
instead of you know, likeProverbs says, you know, bind
them on your heart and they'llcome speak to you.
Instead, it was these, theselies that are that are coming to
(18:07):
speak to you.
So around that time we came toSnowbird and you know, this is
where I, this is where I seeGod's sovereignty in all of it.
But I just love this part of itwhere my counselor just felt
the desire, the weekend before Iget there, I'm going to go
research Mormonism and how toshare the gospel with Mormons,
(18:29):
and I mean, what other reasonwould there be except God
sovereignly preparing him tobring the gospel to me?
And he did.
And so I came and, like I said,that Isaiah six story was
really big.
It was like you know, thisisn't the God I worship Really
really important.
The other sermon that Iremember that week was Kahuna.
(18:50):
He actually was preaching asermon on leading a double life,
like saying that you're achristian but living different,
and I and I was like I'mconvicted that's what I'm doing.
I was not what I was doing.
I was not a christian yeah, likeI don't love jesus triple lock,
yeah, and so I raised my handto like respond and get to go
talk, and, um, I started withanother and get to go talk, and
(19:13):
um, I started with anothercounselor.
But my counselor found me.
His name's Matt Anderson.
Um, and he came and found meand I was real emotional and he
was really good to kind of getpast that emotion and to really
just start talking about thedeity of Christ.
And this is this was the real,like real turning point for me.
(19:35):
I don't remember anything hesaid except this one question,
which was, if Jesus had not havebeen God, how would he have
been able to live a sinless life?
And so the only doctrine that Iknew that Christians differed
from Mormons was the Trinity.
That was the only one I reallyknew, and the only doctrine that
I had solid Christians differedfrom Mormons was the Trinity.
I was the only one that Ireally knew, and the only
doctrine that I had solidly inmy mind is that people are
(19:58):
sinful, like I just had that inmy life and that was the one
thing that I had just realized.
I am a bad person, Right, andso that was the exact question
that needed to be asked and Iwas like I don't have an answer
for that, that's a really goodquestion.
I don't have an answer for that, that's a really good question.
I don't have, I need, I need tothink about it.
And so I went back home and Iwas thinking about it and I had
(20:22):
this group of friends that werereally good to me, speaking into
my life and caring about me andpraying for me.
And then I had some Mormonfriends still and my family and
I knew they were on oppositesides.
It was the first time Irealized, like I was going to
the Methodist church, thinkingthis is just something I'm
(20:45):
adding to my faith.
It's like we're on the sameteam and for the first time it
was.
They're different and I've gotto choose.
And the main thing is I need toknow if Jesus is God and I was
trying to figure out how do Itell?
Like, like, if I ask them,they're obviously biased.
I've asked them, they're biased.
(21:05):
And what I came to and this Ithink that this is again just a
sovereign thought that Godbrought to me was I'm going to
read the Bible, because theyboth say they believe the Bible
Mormons don't actually, but theysay they do and whatever the
Bible says about Jesus, that'swhat I'm going to believe.
And so what I started doing isI just Googled scripture that
(21:31):
says Jesus is God, and I wouldread all these articles and find
all the verses and read themall and I'm like, okay, these
say Jesus is God.
And then I Googled verses thatsay Jesus is not God.
And then I looked through allthose and when I read them and
people were saying these saythis, that Jesus is not God.
(21:51):
I read them and I was like youdon't read, well, that's not
what that says.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
That's not what that says.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
In fact, some of these verses that I was reading
as evidence that Jesus was notGod, I was like putting over
here in this category for versesthat say Jesus is God.
Because once I read this incontext, you like this is saying
Jesus is God.
You're confused, you cherrypick this verse out and and you
did not understand it, and sovery quickly.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
When in the mormon church do they use the same
bible that we would use like?
Is there anything added ortaken away, or is it the same?
Speaker 4 (22:27):
well, there's definitely things added.
Uh, first of all, just in thebook of Mormon and the Doctrine
and Covenants, they'll have thisthick book.
That's got.
They'll call it all four.
They've got a name.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
So you've got the King James Bible, the Book of
Mormon, the Law and Covenant orthe Doctrine, and Covenant.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
The four are Old Testament, New Testament.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
And that's King James .
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Yes, that's King James.
And then Book of MormonDoctrine and New Testament.
Okay, and that's King James.
Yes, that King James.
And then book of Mormondoctrine and covenants.
And then there's like a littlebook called the Pearl, of great
price, but we don't need to getinto that.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
That's a different animal, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Okay.
So I was reading King James,okay, and I also had an NIV
Bible that I'd grabbed, but Iwas just reading the Bible and
they've they.
But I was just reading theBible and they've got in their
Bible, in their King James.
They have what they call JosephSmith translations, where he's
very carefully found as manyverses as he could that
disagreed with his doctrine andchanged the wording, and he's
(23:24):
actually even wrote himself intosome prophecies in the Old
Testament.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
So it's not like a footnote.
He changed the actual text.
It is a footnote.
I don't know why it's afootnote he changed the actual
text.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
It is a footnote I don't know why.
It's a footnote okay it doesn'tmake sense to me.
In my mind, you know, it wouldbe like the watchtower, where
they just completely erase it,but they have at least.
When I was a kid, they had theoriginal king james and then
there'd be a little header thereand you'd go down and you'd
read the Joseph Smithtranslation and anytime that you
(23:56):
disagreed with what the Biblesaid, you'd be looking for the
Joseph Smith.
If there was a Joseph Smithtranslation to shed more light
because Joseph Smith had thetrue revelation and I tried to
find passages when I was doingthis that didn't have a Joseph
Smith translation, to try to bemore objective and unbiased.
(24:17):
But pretty quickly I had thishuge list of scripture passages
that talk about Jesus being Godand I came to the conclusion the
Bible says Jesus is God.
Like that's just what it says.
It is very clear.
I spent a ton of time in John.
I spent a lot of time in Isaiah, and that was mainly just
(24:38):
understanding who God is.
You know, I read Isaiah 53.
I read some Psalms, I read someprophecy.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
You read Isaiah 53.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
And our Be Strong conference coming up.
We're going to be in Isaiah.
I mean it's penalsubstitutionary atonement yeah
I'm assuming they totally rejectthat yes, absolutely and you
ended up in isaiah 53.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Yes, yeah, and another one that I really love
and still love to this day just,and I'm excited we're we're
going through genesis, for inour school, uh, where abraham is
goes to sacrifice isaac, andI'd always been confused by that
passage when I read it, becauseI was like there's no concept
of typology or anything likethat in the Mormon church they
(25:21):
don't teach that.
But I always just read.
I was like this seems to beabout Jesus and it absolutely is
, and so I was reading that andI love the past.
What Abraham says to Isaac theLord will provide for himself.
A sacrifice Like that is sogood and it throws all of
(25:43):
man-made religion away.
It's like.
I'm going to do it, I'm going tobring the sacrifice, but I mean
very early on in Scripture.
God is the one who is making away for salvation.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
The point being if I could get your, I would like for
you to speak to this.
Isaac doesn't represent Jesusin the story.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
No, the Ram the Ram.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
The Ram is Jesus.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
We are Isaac.
We are Isaac yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
And how many times, and, and and.
You're coming from the Mormonside, but I'll tell you that and
JB and I are a generation apart, but we're both raised in a
church, in the Christian church,in the evangelical Orthodox
Christian church.
Most of us are taught aschildren that the parallels
Isaac to Jesus, but Jesus isrepresented in the story by the
(26:28):
ram.
We're Isaac.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Yeah, absolutely it's powerful.
Yeah.
And I mean I thought the samething.
As a Mormon, I knew it wasabout Jesus.
I didn't get you know thedistinction there, but it was
clear enough that I was likethis passage is confusing to me,
it doesn't fit with my theology, and so I spent time in there
again Colossians, Hebrews andjust tons of evidence.
(26:50):
And so there I was, and so Iwas like, okay, Jesus is God,
that's what the Bible says.
And then I was just likelooking kind of like look around
, like what next?
Like what do I do now?
Like what is?
Now?
I know the truth, so I'm goingto stop going to the Mormon
church, All right?
Like how does my life reallychange from this truth?
And you know, talking to myfriends, I was going to a small
(27:11):
group with them that they met onSundays and I was like what's
going on?
Like what do I need to do?
Is there something I'm missing?
I feel like there's somethingI'm missing still.
And they're like, oh, you needto get saved.
And this is what I was talkingabout.
I was like what does that mean?
And they tried to explain it tome, me, they may have explained
(27:32):
it perfectly well, I meanthey're high school students.
They may not have done it well,but either way it was over my
head, like I did not get it.
There was no framework in mymind of I have to submit to
christ and be born again andhave the holy spirit come in me
(27:53):
and be saved from my sins.
That was just not a concept,because there is no hell,
there's no real lastingpunishment.
And so I was like, all right,I'll try, Let me try to get
saved.
And so I'd go try to get saved.
God saved me, just praying overand over.
And God saved me and I'd reallythrough that study habit and
(28:14):
even continuing on.
I just started reading theBible a lot, and so I'd come
home it was not my senior yearI'd come home from school and I
wouldn't do any of my homework.
I would read the Bible and Iwould listen to the songs that
we sang at Snowbird and I wouldcry and I would pray.
I'd be like I need to get saved, cry and I would pray and be
like I need to get saved.
And I was just doing that overand over and over again.
I was not getting saved yet, butlike I was still, you know,
(28:36):
just looking and seeking, andone night, just in my room, by
myself, that same pattern ofjust reading, worshiping,
praying.
I was just like all right, likehere, here I am like this.
This God brought me to thismoment of humility where I was
(28:56):
like, okay, I do not understand.
I don't understand anything.
I don't understand what'ssupposed to do.
I don't understand whatsalvation is.
I don't understand any of this.
I understand one thing Jesus isGod.
And I submit to that.
And that was when I it was.
I felt like I was hit like a bya load of bricks, like in a in
(29:19):
a good way, if that's possibleLike I felt the spirit come in
and I felt new life and I waslike, okay, I don't I still
don't know what salvation is,but it happened, it just
happened.
Like I could not articulateanything, anything other to my
friends, I just told him hey, Igot saved.
I don't know what that means.
But like I'm saved now and thatthat was like that's the end of
like me coming out ofChristianity it's so amazing.
(29:42):
Or coming out of Mormonism toChristianity, and it's so
amazing.
And then immediately, what I,what I think is even maybe not
more gracious, but just evenmore wonderful to me it just
keeps getting more wonderful theolder I get.
God has always had, with veryfew exceptions, people speaking
truth into my lives since thatmoment of me becoming a
(30:03):
Christian.
So I had those friends who werewith me and I was in their
small group and so for the firstyear of me being Christian
really more than a year, andeven sometimes still there's
hidden false doctrines or falsethoughts that are that are just
like tucked away.
But especially that first year,we'd be in our small group and
(30:24):
I'd be saying, oh yeah,something, something, something
premortal existence, and I'd getlike the head turns from
everyone in the small group likewhat are you talking about?
And I'd have to be like, oh,that's a Mormon thing, I guess
I've got to, I've got to unlearnthat.
So I have to throw away.
I had to throw away all mydoctrine, because it really is.
It just doesn't fit, and sothat was that first year.
(30:46):
And then I came into old schooland that was probably the most
important just just three months, one of the most important
three months of my life.
That's where I learned aboutChristian community what it
actually is like, that it's notperfect and that I'm going to
get annoyed with otherChristians and there's like like
we have to apologize andreconcile, like in my mind at
(31:08):
that point it'd been like nowthat I'm a Christian, everything
is perfect and we're all happyand love each other all the time
, and that's just not true, youknow, we still have sin and I
learned.
This is when I learned thosedisciplines and I learned more
theology, but I learned thosedisciplines.
This is really one of the mostlife-giving things that's
happened to me since becoming aChristian is practicing
(31:32):
scripture, memorization forlarge chunks of scripture.
That was when I think it wasmaybe something Zach had said,
or maybe Brian Kaufman, and Iwas like, yeah, I do love
scripture, I want to write it onmy heart.
And so I memorized the book of1 John.
It was just one of the shortestbooks.
I'm going to memorize that, andwhen I say memorize, I couldn't
(31:53):
give it off to you right now,but it's like I spent a long
time reading those words overand over and over again and
getting them into my heart andthe word just bringing me life,
and this is what I really love.
You know, for cults, your mindis being shaped.
(32:14):
You are being taught to thinkin certain modes, taught to
think in certain patterns, andas I memorized scripture and
meditated on scripture, I couldliterally feel my brain
beginning to work.
I feel, like ephesians says, betransformed by the renewal of
(32:37):
your mind, like I could feelthat happening in real time
because I was like I immediatelyas soon as I became christian,
I read through the bible inthree months.
I was like reading lots ofscripture.
I started to memorize and itwas like the word had that
effect.
I was washing myself with theword and it was so good for just
the way that I was thinking andthe way that I was processing,
(32:59):
and there were so many doctrinesI needed to unlearn.
And then I worked my firstsummer and I learned.
Really, the big takeaway frommy first summer is and you may
remember this, brody I learnedthe weight of being a teacher,
because it wasn't a huge issue,but I taught something that
(33:20):
wasn't true to campers.
You remember this, don't I?
I taught, I told a bunch ofcampers that babies go to hell
and it's kind of ringing a belland one of the kids had like,
had lost like they'd lost asibling.
Yeah, like they're miscarriageand there was uh, I mean they
(33:41):
were.
They're upset, like like notjust upset because I taught
something that wasn't true, butlike it was a, a lie that was
causing them grief, hurtful,yeah, and and this is like this
was.
This was the last week of campand I heard I was in trouble and
I was like, am I in trouble?
And you came and told me what Idid and I was like immediately
(34:02):
started crying because it justthe weight of the fact that I
not only do I know truth now,but I have the power to preach
the gospel, and there's a hugeweight for that.
And if we make people stumble,like there's there's judgment
(34:24):
for that, there's a fear forthat, and like that was really
big for me and, as someone whois a teacher now, like that was
a very, very important thing forme to realize.
And so I worked several summers.
The other big thing when I leftSnowbird, I realized that
ministry at Snowbird was really,at least for the staff like the
(34:46):
summer staff is really kind ofeasy because someone's always
telling you what to do and whereto be and if you want to be
obedient, it's easy becauseeveryone's doing it.
And then I left and I realizedhow important the church is,
because I went to a place thatthere wasn't.
I couldn't find a church and Iand I looked, I was trying hard
(35:09):
and trying to find friends.
I couldn't find them and I andI started to fall into sin.
I was still a very youngChristian.
Um started to fall into sin andI moved over specifically to
another part of uh, into anothercity, to, to, to go live with a
friend I do.
I knew like I need to get outof this.
I need community around me andthis friend let me live with him
(35:33):
.
And and I was going back intodepression because I was, you
know, no Christian is happy insin and he just said hey, get up
, you know, come with me andwe're going to go share the
gospel.
And that was a really sweettime of me just kind of
following him around andlearning how to be obedient in
(35:55):
the real world.
And so evangelism is veryimportant to me.
You know I've always, eversince I became a Christian,
passionate about bringing thegospel to people.
But it's especially valuable tome because I know from that
experience like no one is happywhen they're not living their
(36:17):
intended purpose and ourintended purpose for us as
Christians right now we need tobe worshiping God ourselves, but
bringing other people toworship him, and that was really
really good.
So then I lived there for alittle bit.
I came back here.
I was still trying to figureout what to do.
You know what direction to go.
(36:38):
I always want to be in missions, but God taught me at that time
I needed to learn how to befaithful where I was and to be
working wherever I was.
And so I came back here and Iworked the best I could.
I was going to school to be ateacher because I just thought,
you know, this is what I lovedoing and this is what I have
(37:01):
experience doing.
I think I do it well.
I think I do it better thanother things that I do.
I became a teacher.
I worked one last summer.
I met my wife.
That was a huge blessing,obviously.
Then we moved over toStatesville and had a sweet time
there with building goodrelationships.
Right now we're over inFayetteville working at a
(37:22):
Christian school in the Bibledepartment, and you know our
goal long term is to bemissionaries.
But because we're trying to befaithful wherever we are, we
just we're just always findingwork to do wherever we go, that
needs to get done, and, and, andtrying to do that work, and I
always have a hard time ending atestimony.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Well, let me, um, there's a couple of things that
uh, right there at the end thatpopped into my mind because you
always have been veryintentional about evangelism.
When we first started snowbird,you know we would, we would
load up, uh, we'd take all ofour staff and we would go to
(38:03):
downtown ashville and we wouldwalk the streets and share the
gospel and our staff would be 20people.
We could do it in a couple ofvans and uh, but everybody would
go and and we would, we would,we would say, hey, if you're not
comfortable, walk along withsomeone, that is.
And we would just do streetevangelism, just sharing the
gospel, people in that context.
(38:24):
And so, um, the staff grew, itgot so big it got logistically
impossible.
We shifted our schedule.
The schedule used to run runSunday to Friday.
We would spend all day Saturdayin Asheville.
And then we shifted the campschedule Monday to Saturday so
everybody could worship onSunday.
And we planted a church.
It just changed.
It got very difficult to take.
(38:45):
It was easy to take 20 people,it was hard to take 120.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And because we'd feed them, we would all stay over
there, we'd crash, we would campout and sleep in people's yards
family members of mine thatwere close to that area.
So you, you pick that up, yourevitalize that and and it and
it's, it's continued to beongoing.
There's been guys that havecarried that mantle and so we've
always got snowbird peoplegoing into downtown Asheville in
(39:11):
the summers and yeah, I wasactually going to say your last
summer was my first summer and Ithought that was cool.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
I remember you taking groups of people to Asheville
and just street evangelize.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
When I really went, that was I got it from old
school Cause you guys still didit, yeah, in old school.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Old school was a program that that the Institute
has sort of displaced.
We merged our intern programand the old school program into
one, but the old school programwas similar to the Institute.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
Yeah, we would go do it.
I remember going to Ashevillethe first time I had a journal
of all the people that I spoketo that week and it was very
forming for me when I left andstruggled to be obedient in the
real world and had to figurethat out.
(40:00):
The whole reason that I wantedto revitalize it is because,
like I don't want anyone tostruggle like that, I want them
to learn how to go talk to realpeople, cause talking to campers
like they're expecting you totalk to.
Jesus.
They want.
Some of them want you to, andyou know.
But if respecting you to talkabout Jesus, some of them want
you to.
But if you go to Asheville,it's not like that.
This is just real people andthey're strange people.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
There's all sorts of.
There's the sticker KeepAsheville Weird.
It's on all the Subarus that aredriving around town and
Volkswagen vans.
That mindset, too, is why, youknow, I I've I brought Josh into
a couple of conversations.
I we had a Mormon family thatstarted coming to Red Oak
through relational connectionwith people in our community.
(40:45):
They had moved to the area,they were attending the LDS
church and, uh, the mom gotsaved.
We baptized her, grafted theminto our body, got them into
solid discipleship program andthey had one of the older
children in that family waspreparing for mission and we
went to lunch and I asked you tocome.
Yeah, I remember that, yeah, man, and you can pray for him.
(41:07):
He hasn't embraced the gospelbut he walked away from
Mormonism.
He's just kind of floating.
He's in a non-gravity place,you know, nothing's grounding
him but um, but but two thingsthat I'd like to end on one,
could you?
We joke around here, people,people will have for years have
(41:27):
said we'll say that snowbird's acult, you know, and it's, it's,
it's cheap, lazy criticism bylocal people.
I say it's cheap and it's, it's, it's cheap, lazy criticism by
local people.
I say it's cheap and it's lazy.
It's cheap because you can sayanything and some people will.
If they don't even maybebelieve it, they'll raise an
eyebrow and go maybe there'ssomething to that.
(41:47):
So it's cheap, it's.
It takes.
It takes energy, intellectualbandwidth, articulation to speak
truth.
It's very cheap and easy tospeak lies.
So I try to tell my kids and thefolks at our church and our
staff when people say ifsomebody says no, we're just a
(42:07):
cult man, that's cheap, thosewords are cheap, that's just
lazy.
And it's lazy in that all yougot to do is it's not hard to
figure out if something's a cult.
Ask them what they believeabout the deity of Christ, the
personhood of Jesus, the work ofJesus, press into Christology.
That's ultimately what broughtyou to Christ and removed you
from the Mormon church.
It was the person and thepersonhood, the identity, the
(42:30):
work of Jesus.
And so how would you do ifsomebody said to you well, what
is a cult?
How would you define it?
Cause I'll a lot of times I'llsay we're not a cult, we don't
even meet the criteria of a cult.
We worship Jesus.
Um, what, what?
What is a cult?
Because you, you said you namedthree or four different, four
or five different religiousaffiliations and refer to them
(42:52):
as cults, which all I'm inagreement with.
How would you define it briefly?
Speaker 4 (42:57):
There's kind of the Christian definition and then
the secular definition, andthat's, I think, where people
get confused, and I mean, we'reneither.
But the Christian definition isjust that, like someone who
takes one of the core doctrinesof Christ and perverts them and
preaches a false gospel.
So jehovah, witness um andmormonism they both deny the
(43:20):
deity of christ.
Seventh-day adventism what dothey deny?
Or, uh, they really are, what'stheir big?
They're legalistic, they'reman-made religion, they they
think they are, yeah, they thinkthey are righteous through
obeying literally obeying thelaw.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
And Christian science , like they really deny all
truth as a concept and like webelieve.
You know we believe truth isthat which corresponds to
reality.
Don't even believe in reality.
It's like everything isfleeting and fake.
So how can you talk aboutanything in Christ without the
concept of truth?
It's just nonsense.
(43:56):
And then from like maybe thesocial one, it's still still
Christian.
It would be like the thingsthat I would look for, other
than doctrine, are things likecontrolling whether people are
allowed to leave.
Is is definitely a big one andwe really aren't like that.
Like Christian, christian,solid Christian churches
(44:21):
practice church discipline where, if you do not agree with these
things and you do not practiceChristian holiness, we invite
you to leave and go somewherewhere you can pretend to be a
Christian somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
It's the opposite of making you stay.
Yes, I mean yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
If you don't want to be with us.
You know, as John says, theywere of us, but they went out,
went out from us and we welcomethat For a cult.
They are grasping souls andlocking them in as good as they
can.
They prey on weak-minded people.
You know, we bring the gospel.
The gospel has great power topeople who are hurting, who are
(45:01):
weak emotionally and goingthrough pain Like there's.
That's just there's a lot ofhistory in people who are humble
coming to faith.
But cults specifically pray onpeople who are the weak-minded
people who can be easily ledastray and controlled.
(45:22):
And so if you find a group thatis determining what someone is
allowed to think, to be part ofthe group in terms of like we're
going to shape the way that youthink in a restrictive like you
can't think critically.
That's the main thing.
So when I came to Snowbird andI started talking to you guys, I
(45:48):
would hear things like this iswhat I think read the Bible and
find out what it says.
And there's always this appealto a higher authority.
That's not human and aunwillingness for a human to
shape someone's mind too muchLike.
We want to speak truth intopeople's lives, but I don't
(46:09):
necessarily want everyone tothink the exact same way.
I think I want them to thinkthe way the Bible thinks, and so
I'm going to tell them what Ithink the Bible thinks and then
encourage them to read the exactsame way.
I think I want them to thinkthe way the Bible thinks, and so
I'm going to tell them what Ithink the Bible thinks and then
encourage them to read the Biblemore.
And so when I hear you guyspreach I heard this a lot when I
was first there is thosewarnings, hey if you don't agree
with what I say, check my work,kind of thing.
(46:31):
So those are the big things.
So letting people read the wordfor themselves and interact
with god and have a personalrelationship with him, and not
controlling the mind it's freeto be shaped by christ.
And then, uh, having gooddoctrine.
And then the fact that we'renot clutching anyone and begging
, we're not looking for numbersLike the church, is Christ's
(46:54):
decision, and if you're notwalking with Christ, we call you
to repent, repent and believe.
But if that's not something youwant, then you're not one of us
and until you are, you need towalk away.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
Yeah, that's good, that's helpful.
Last thing what has this alldone?
I mean I wanted you to go.
We, we, jb and I, had talkedabout this.
We wanted you to go throughthat entire story up to where
you are today, cause I wantedpeople to see.
This all happened over a decadeago and this trajectory you're
on has you teaching the Bible ata, at a Christian school?
(47:34):
That's a snowbird partner.
Um, I mean, you are as you are,as much you you can't get any
further into Christianitybecause you're you're making
disciples.
We have a video of you.
A lot of people know thatthere's an area in the Himalayas
that we do a lot of work and alot of us have been to that area
.
Is that we do a lot of work anda lot of us have been to that
(47:57):
area.
We have a video where you andanother guy from this ministry
were doing a trek and ended upsharing the gospel with a group
of village leaders.
It was all men and boys fromthat village.
That's one of the coolestthings I've ever watched.
I've showed that before in a, ina more closed setting here,
where the Himalayan.
It looks like you're sitting onthe precipice, like on the edge
(48:19):
of a cliff bigger than the GrandCanyon, behind you Himalayas
and all these guys are sittingaround crisscross applesauce and
you're sharing the gospel andyou get to that point where you
say that Jesus rose from thedead and they just freaked out.
They're just chattering andgoing crazy and I'm like this
dude was in darkness under falsedoctrine, false teaching, and
(48:44):
now he's shining the light toothers in a far place.
I want people to hear thetrajectory of your life and now
you are doing what I think isthe most faithful and noble work
a person can do.
You're instructing and teachingthe next generation, which is
the church, which is obviouslywhat we're passionate about and
student ministry, but teachingthem the Bible.
(49:06):
Not just giving them a goodtime, but teaching them the
Bible.
What has all that done to therelationships with your family?
Not your wife, amazing your,your family, your, your mom,
your siblings, like, like that,that side.
So they're, by the way, they'relocal to this area.
Speaker 4 (49:25):
Yeah, they moved here right before I left.
Um, at least my, my mom and mystepdad did.
Most of my.
The rest of my family is stillin Georgia, but yeah.
So when I first became aChristian, I was very nervous
about approaching my family atall with this.
And I didn't.
I didn't want to and I was.
(49:45):
I was praying about it and myyouth pastor had had me write
down my testimony this is likethe first three months of me
being a Christian and so heasked me to write down my
testimony to share at the youthgroup.
And, uh, my mom had just goneto my room for something and
found it on my desk and read it.
(50:06):
And I just came into my roomand she was sitting there crying
and said is this really whatyou believe?
And that was like you know, Ididn't want to have.
I don't want to hurt my mom,even even though this is true.
I don't want to hurt anyone'sfeelings.
But I had to make a decision tobe like am I gonna, am I going
(50:28):
to compromise on truth to makesomeone feel better, or am I
going to preach the gospel andhope that they repent and
believe in trusting in Christ?
And so I was like, yeah, that'swhat I believe, that's the
truth.
And so, really, god forced meinto sharing the gospel with my
family.
(50:48):
And since that conversation,that first year that I was there
that was my senior year I hadtons of conversations with my
mom and with my siblings aboutthe gospel and their response
that year was anger.
It was.
You know, you are the youngestone, you're arrogant and I mean
(51:13):
I'm a little arrogant.
You're arrogant and I mean I'ma little arrogant.
Uh, you're arrogant, you know.
You're just, you're on yourhigh horse and just telling us
you know that you're better thanus and I was like that's not
what I'm saying at all.
And so throughout the years Iwould kind of go through cycles
of being really bold and vocaland telling them the truth,
(51:34):
calling them to repent, talkingabout the deity of Christ, and
then trying to balance that withtimes where I would pull back
and just talk to them about life, just hang out with them and
try to keep that relationshipinstead of just hit them over
(51:54):
and over again.
And so I've been a Christianfor 16 years now, so that's what
it's been up until really thepast three months.
And then I don't want to givetoo many details here, but I had
found out that my stepdad hadhad a cancer and that they'd
(52:15):
known about it for a long timeand didn't tell me.
Because in my mind they didn'ttell me because they don't
really like talking aboutserious things, they just kind
of want to have they were,they're optimistic in their, in
their own mind, and but for me Ifelt very convicted because I
was like no, they really aredying.
Like Like, even if this, like Ithink the cancer is dealt with,
but even if it is like they'redying, hell is on its way for
(52:40):
them.
And I felt very convicted and Iwas like praying through.
I think I need to just only talkto them about the gospel, like
I'm not, I don't have time towaste, and so, um, trying to
communicate with that to myfamily really didn't go well.
Um, essentially they were like,uh, you know, I was like I
(53:04):
don't want to talk to you unlessabout the gospel, and
essentially they were like, okay, we don't want to talk to you.
Then you know, my they'reassaulting my character.
My brother had, like I makeposts on Facebook that are, you
know, preaching the gospel.
My brother commented onsomething trying to assault my
character.
I had to delete it and blockhim because I didn't trust him
to keep private things private.
(53:24):
And my mother the last words Ihave in a text from my mom are
her calling me a zealot of Satan.
Because I told him hey, I loveJesus and you do not, and that
is offensive to me.
It's offensive to me that youdo know, because Romans says you
know, you know who God is andyou refuse to worship him.
(53:47):
This is the thing I care aboutmost in the world, the thing I
love most in the world, morethan I love you, and I'm calling
you you know.
You need to repent and trust inthat.
And if you don't want any partof that like I'm not interested
really in talking about anythingelse I want you to know this
truth.
And so they're.
They were pushed off and we'relike you know, we're, we're done
(54:09):
, we're.
So we're pretty much officiallyestranged.
For me, the door's open.
As soon as they want to talkabout the gospel, I'll be there.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
I'll be there to bring the gospel to them and
tell them the truth and we'rehere and you've moved away, but
they live in earshot of wherewe're sitting right now and I've
told you I'll drive over thereany day, any minute, to do
anything we can to minister, andI would ask our listeners to,
even right now, pause and justhit pause and pray for Josh's
(54:41):
family, cause I believe they'regoing to come to faith in Jesus.
Um man, thank, thank you, thankyou, thank you.
I've I've wanted to do this forso long and I've mentioned it
to you several times and it'slike but I didn't want it, I
didn't want to do it and not doit right.
I wanted to be able to sit down, carve out a whole morning, not
getting it, take some breaks,not getting a hurry, um, so I
(55:04):
really appreciate it yeah, mypleasure it.
I will tell you this having beenin ministry for now three
decades, um, I and I would saythis, of all four people behind
the camera, in front of thecamera, um, y'all are what I
would call trophies of ministry.
Like, there are those storieswhere I'm like, if, if, if, I'm
(55:28):
gone dead out of the picture andsomebody needs to represent the
work that has been done here,it's an honor that you two would
would represent that and I'mjust grateful for the gospel in
y'all's lives.
So I appreciate you coming onand, uh, go get some quesadillas
.
Yes, and you make quesadillas,yeah, they're good they're
(55:50):
amazing and you're going downthe river today yeah, never gets
old, awesome man thanks thanksfor listening to.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!