Redemption, Betrayal, and Responsibility in Ministry | No Sanity Stories

DISCLAIMER: This episode includes content that is sexual in nature. Viewer discretion is advised. 

In this episode, Brody shares one of the most shocking and unexpected stories from his 30 years in ministry. He shares about how a seemingly incredible transformation later developed into a situation that required him to step in and protect students from a manipulative youth pastor.

Brody stepped in to stop a predator in ministry and discusses the responsibility of other leaders to keep people safe. He and JB reflect on the importance of discernment, protecting others, and being vigilant in ministry.

This episode is a powerful reminder of the need for spiritual protection and staying alert when in leadership.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, I got JB with me today.
Say hey.
Hey.
So the feedback's been great.
Everyone has really enjoyedhaving JB on and Issa when she's
been here, katie last week,kilby the week before I think
y'all love it when I have folkshere, but with JB being now no
longer a guest but literally apart of NSR, so we're going to

(00:21):
tell a story today.
Yep A crazy story.
One of maybe the crazieststories that I've ever
experienced in ministry and Ithink where this all started was
a conversation we had last week.
So ask JB to come on and so getcomfortable if you're on your
commute or you got a cup ofcoffee and just listen to this

(00:42):
story.
Try to keep up.
We'll try not to be tooconfusing with names we got to
keep some anonymity with some ofthe people in this but one of
the craziest stories I've everexperienced in ministry and
we're going to be bringing yousome of these.
I think we're going to do alittle series of these over the
next few months of just wildstories from 30 years of
ministry.
So you say it Welcome.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Welcome to no Sanity Required, all right.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of
Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters.
A podcast about the Bibleculture and stories from around
the globe.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
First off, the feedback with you on the
episodes has been awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yay, like literally this morning I got feedback.
My mom always gives me feedback.
She probably loves it, it's sogreat.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Um, uh, this morning.
Uh, spencer, he told me hedrove back from they went to
Knox's game last night.
And he said uh, he said Ilistened to the episode with jb
and katie.
He's a man.
Jb really does a great job.
He's like she adds so much.

Speaker 5 (01:50):
That's cool thank you , that means a lot yeah, okay,
let's get into this.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
So, um, I asked jb to come sit and and have a
conversation with me because andin last week's episode, the
three of us Katie Cousins, jband me sat and talked and what
y'all didn't hear as listenersis that when we stopped

(02:15):
recording, well, we sat andtalked for another hour, hour
and a half and it turned intojust I was telling them stories,
some crazy stories that havehappened in ministry through the
years, and you have thingshappen in your life.
You know, one of the thingsthat we do on NSR is we tell
stories, stories from around theglobe and you have things

(02:35):
happen in your life that stickwith you.
Like I remember a story fromwhen I was a little kid and I've
never told you this, but I wasso when I was a, when I was a
child in the 70s sorry, notfunny.
Sorry, I didn't realize you werethat old, I mean that young

(03:00):
guys, y'all may get to hear jbliterally get strangled on this
episode get fired.
I mean it's no secret, I havechildren older than JB, so, um,
jb is literally, uh, one of mymiddle daughter's closest
friends.
So that just so y'all know, ifyou're, if you've ever listened

(03:21):
and wondered, jb is like youngerthan some of my kids, so, and
JB is a dichotomy, because shecan be the most mature 22, 23,
22.
She can be the most mature22-year-old, I know, or she can

(03:42):
be a 12-year-old, which, in thismoment, right now, she just was
a 12-year-old, literally.
You started laughing at mebecause I said when I was a the
statement was when I was a childin the 70s.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
Well, it's like that's like my parents age too.
I don't know why I thought itwas it's fine.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
So there was and I most people probably not going
to know this even that grew upin my era, because this is
something from, like, my parentsand grandparents era.
I remember my granddad used totalk about um, they called it
the.
I'm going to get this wrong andI know we'll have here, uh,
listeners that'll hear this andthey'll correct me or they'll

(04:16):
tell me, but it's like peoplewere hobos and what hobos would
do is they would just work.
What was called this?
Uh, I think they called it thesoup line, where they would just
work.
What was called this?
I think they called it the soupline, where they would just
jump on a train and ride to thenext city or town, get off and
they knew where they could getsome food, like at a soup
kitchen or something then they'djump on a.

(04:36):
So they're just like kind ofadventurous spirits, that
weren't.
You know.
You see a lot of peoplenowadays that are homeless but
they're on drugs.
Yeah.
The hobo culture was a bigculture coming out of the
depression.
It's because people I think itstarted because people didn't
have jobs.
It was kind of roaming thecountry looking for work.
So it it birthed this wholeculture.

(04:57):
People would just likehitchhike or ride trains and
hitchhiking was a big thing,like when I was a kid.
This is crazy to think aboutnow, but when I was a kid we
would pick up hitchhikers.
I can remember my dad stoppingand picking up hitchhikers with
the whole family in the car.
That's crazy.
And then I did that because Igrew up that way.
I remember doing it with whenKilby and Tuck were small I

(05:20):
don't think Lely was born yet,but I remember me and Little
were in.
We had a single cab truck and Iremember picking up a hitchhiker
in the gorge that we weredriving to Waynesville and so he
was.
I said you can get in the backof the truck.
So he got in the back of mytruck for, you know, over an
hour, but back then it waspretty harmless and you just
didn't hear things happening topeople.

(05:41):
Well, I remember I have thisstory where I remember my mom.
Uh, I was probably kindergartenand a guy came by our house.
We lived my.
When I was in kindergarten therewas like a two or three year
window where we lived and welived in a rental house that was
right on a main highway and Imean you could walk probably a
hundred yards and be on thismain highway and it ran right by

(06:03):
our house and the guy must havebeen hitchhiking.
And he came up to our house andit was some weather was moving
in and he asked if he couldsleep in our carport.
Just put his bed roll out, hejust need to get out of the
weather.
And my mom I remember my mom wewere eating pinto beans.
Do you know what that is?
yes, okay uh, that's when I wasgrowing up.
We ate pinto beans once a week.
That was like like a meal.

(06:23):
You know.
Pintos would be like a meal,especially for poor people in
the South.
And so that night we wereeating pinto beans and cornbread
.
And he comes in, this guy thatwe don't know, and he sits down
and has a meal with us and thenhe had like his little bed roll
and he goes out and puts his bedroll out and goes to sleep.
And I remember getting up thenext morning for school and I

(06:47):
ran to the kitchen door to lookout on the carport.
I wanted to see if he's that.
He was an interesting character.
I was like get him to come in.
Is he going to come in and drinkcoffee.
He was gone.
He had rolled his bedroll andleft, and I remember my mom gave
him a mason jar with a screw-onlid, a I remember my mom gave
him a mason jar with a screw-onlid, you know, a mason jar
filled with pinto beans to takewith him, that's crazy that

(07:08):
would provide him two or threemeals, you know Dang.
So it was a different era.
But that story I don't thinkI've ever told anybody that
story.
I was thinking about it.
Something made me think of thatthe other day and I just

(07:30):
thought how many things happenin your life that are that are
that you don't pick up on, maybein the moment that are really
like cool stories down the road.
Yeah, and I was talking to KaraJones one time, who you know,
and she said Brody, when Ilisten to you teach, I just
think how does so muchinteresting stuff happen to one
guy?
And I was like, because I tellstories you know, and I said
well, it happens to everybody.

(07:50):
But I think people don't payattention to the mundane little
details that make stories in theday-to-day life that we live,
Because there's somethinghappening every day.
But the story we're going totell today is not a story that
happened in the mundane littledetails of everyday life.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Right.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Today I want to tell what I believe is one of the
most shocking stories that I'veexperienced in 30 years of
ministry.
Yeah, and when I told thisstory to you and Katie last week
, y'all's jaws were just on thefloor.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
I mean seriously, like he's not exaggerating, like
my mouth was wide open, like indisbelief.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Multiple times yes.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Cause there were, there are going to be, times
when we walked through thisstory where the listener's going
to go, oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
And then I'm going to go and then we're not done
there.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
there was a point last week it was like the third
time when I was telling y'allthe story where I go oh, we're
not done, where I think.
That's when y'all thought, okay, surely that's the end of the
story and it's like nope, it'snot yeah, yeah so we're gonna
call the main guy in this storyJohn P.
John letter P not gonna say thewhole.
I'm not gonna say his name.

(08:59):
You know we'll call him John Pand I'm gonna mix some of the.
I'm gonna mix some of the namesup to not, because there's some
people that I don't want to behurt by this story being told
and then, as we navigate it, youjust stop me and ask for more
details.
So I asked Joy Beth to come on.

(09:21):
I asked JB to come on thisepisode just because talking
straight into a microphone totell a story like this can be
difficult.
I want you to contribute, butit's fine if you're just mainly
listening, but looking atsomebody and telling the story
makes it easier to tell thestory.
And then I also, just like thisis still so fresh for you that

(09:45):
you might think of somethingthat you want to pause, and hey,
what was this like?
Or explain this so one of themost shocking ministry stories
that I don't even think thisstory is over yet, by the way.
Yeah, who knows?
Yeah, in the early days ofSnowbird and this first part of
the story.

(10:05):
It takes one story to set thisstory up and the story that sets
this up I've told on herebefore.
Yeah.
And it was a story that whenLittle and I first got married,
I had a very aggressive, angry,vehement attitude towards people
from the same-sex community.

(10:26):
Yeah, particularly homosexualmales, just um, I don't want to
use a word, like I won't sayhatred.
I would say it was hatred, yeahand no.
I don't know if it was becauseof, uh, experience I had as a
child, when I was about sixyears old, with a 12-year-old

(10:48):
dude, 13-year-old dude that I'vebriefly mentioned before, but
it was a single event.
I don't think it was that,because you'll hear people say
something that happened to themwhen they were a child really
changes the way they viewcertain.
I don't think it was that.
I think just probably grew upin a very masculine culture and

(11:09):
you know.
And so I had a, I had a run inlittle and I were together.
We were, we were together andhad a run in with a same sex
couple, two gay guys and one ofthem, I and one of them to keep
it short, I think one of them.
I perceived that he looked atme wrong and said something to

(11:33):
his partner and it fired me upand I caused a scene.
It was in a very public placeand I caused a scene.
So two gay guys were walking byme and them were walking by by.
One of them says something andI just blow up and it got really
intense, like security comesover and so and I was like
probably 24 years old, I was ayoung man.

(11:54):
Yeah.
And and so we started Snowbird.
I had a similar encounter.
We were about two years into,two or three years into getting
Snowbird going.
I had a similar encounter andthe Lord convicted me of it and

(12:14):
through that conviction I justcommitted to the Lord.
Hey, I want to really.
I know I can't have a heart forministry towards teenagers and
families if they're segments ofhumanity that I hate.
So take that hatred and help meto be more loving and to just
want to share the love of Jesuswith everybody yeah.

(12:37):
And it's funny because the way Itell stories that a couple days
later I was actually the nextday I had this sleepless night
where I was just up wrestlingwith the Lord, praying over the
vision of SWO and where God wasgoing to take this ministry, and
I was excited.
But it was early and you know,is it going to get off the

(12:57):
ground?
I mean, I think what peopledon't know about, people
probably don't think about now,seeing where swole's at is,
years of sleepless nights, isthis going to happen?
Are we going to pull this off?
Is god really going to do this?
I mean, it was lived by faithday to day for those first few
years, for sure and I rememberwrestling with the lord one
night and and he convicted methat I had this real prejudice

(13:19):
towards gay people.
So the next morning I'm.
At the time there was a m was aMcDonald's in Andrews which has
since shut down.
You want to know what a adestitute economy looks like, a
town that can't sustain aMcDonald's but can sustain $2
generous.
Yep.
Yep, Um, so I'm in McDonald'sKeep in mind Hardee's in the

(13:43):
morning, McDonald's in themorning.
It's all just local workingguys and I would go in there and
get a biscuit and a coffee andsit with some local blue-collar
dudes.
It's just 7 in the morning andthese two gay guys walk in Now.
There's no gay people inAndrews at that time.
I would have known if there wassome gay dudes living here and
this gay couple walks in they'reand these two gay couple walks

(14:08):
in there, obviously together,two guys.
Um, it was a very awkwardmoment and the lord compelled me
to share the gospel these guys.
I went over and sat down.
It had to freak them guys out.
I think about it yeah I wentover and plopped down across
from them at their booth theywere sitting on the same side of
the booth and I plopped down onthe other side and, uh, and I
ended up just sharing the gospel, a three-minute gospel, which I
think all believers need to beable to do.
That like just roll out athree-minute gospel, and I left

(14:31):
them with a business card withmy name and number and I said,
if you have any more questions,I'm local, I live here.
Uh, the ministry that I'm, thatI'm with, is local.
If I can answer any questions,don't hesitate to reach out.
So that was it.
I got up and walked out andthen about three, maybe four,
maybe five years later, severalyears later, we had a group of

(14:51):
students and they were out,going door to door in a housing
project and they were sharingwith people and asking for
prayer requests.
A guy comes to the door, robConte, who was a summer staff
guy then.
That's how long ago that wasyeah.
He takes some students in thehousing project in Andrews, the

(15:12):
housing authorities goingthrough the projects, and a guy
comes to the door.
The guy's very emotional.
Rob says can we pray with you?
And the guy says, yeah, I'vejust been diagnosed with AIDS,
I've got AIDS.
And Rob had never seen this guyand he said, well, can we pray
with you?
Can we share the gospel withyou?
The guy pulls out that business.

(15:33):
It was the dude from McDonald'sfour years earlier and he's got
the business card.
I had given him.
He said I've had this thing forfour years.
He said I first came back tothe area, grew up here, had
moved away to somewhere inAtlanta, had come back to the
area.
Around the time I had thatencounter with him at McDonald's
, him and his partner had cometo the area thinking about
moving back here.

(15:54):
Yeah.
Because this guy had a child bya heterosexual relationship from
when he was younger, gotcha, Ithink.
He had been in and out of thehomosexual community, had been
with a woman for a while.
They had a kid.
So he'd come back here to beclose to that kid and anyway him
and his partner had since splitup.
This guy had been diagnosedwith AIDS, thought he was dying,

(16:15):
was desperate.
We ended up.
He prayed to receive Christ.
We baptized this guy.
Yeah, dang Crazy story.
So I'm sharing this story to agroup of student pastors.
So that's the first story Ithink I've told it on NSR, maybe
at some point, I can't remember.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
That story in itself is crazy, it's crazy, crazy,
crazy.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
That story's wild, so I'm sharing the story to a
group of student pastors.
It's like a breakout.
I'm leading a breakout sessionwith student pastors Sharing
that story Wait how many yearsafter that happened were you
sharing this?
I think it was that same summer.
Okay, Maybe like the next year.
Yeah, Maybe it was the nextyear, within like a year, Okay,

(16:55):
and so I'm sharing it.
And this guy walks up to meafterwards and says, can I talk
to you?
And I said, yeah, man, we cantalk.
And so we kind of go around thecorner.
This is before we had the coop,so I had done this breakout
session in the current SWO SnackShack, so students were in the

(17:18):
metal building in the breakout.
I had youth pastors in theSnack Shack breakout.
So we go around behind thesnack shack just to talk.
He said can we talk in private?
We go around there.
And this guy he's single,probably 25 years old, student
pastor.
He said I've never been married.
And he said I've always hadsame-sex attraction.
He said it started when I wasabout 12.

(17:40):
I think it started withpornography and it progressed
Pornographic addiction that ledto same-sex pornography.
That led to these and I'm notimplying that people with
same-sex attraction always itstarts with pornography.
Yeah, but just for this case Forthis context, and I do think
that's a pretty normaltrajectory.

(18:01):
Yeah, a pretty normal trajectory.
So he says I never acted on it.
He said I've been a youthpastor of this church and I had
known him.
I had met him a couple yearsprior.
He came with another churchwhen he was interning there.
He was in Bible college, gotcha.
He'd come with another churchas an intern.
So he's come back.
Now it's a couple years later.

(18:22):
He's come back with his ownyouth group and I said what's
going on?
He said well, about 18 monthsago I had my first same-sex
encounter and what he had doneis he had started.
I don't know if they still havethese, but back in the day
people would meet online in whatwas called chat rooms.
Now I think people just usesocial media.

(18:42):
But back before social media,you would hear, I've never been
in a chat room yeah but I my ownfather had a porn addiction and
was very promiscuous and Iremember having a conversation
with him where he said he wouldmeet women in chat rooms and
they meet virtually and thenthey would meet up somewhere.

(19:03):
So this, this guy started inthis same-sex sort of world of
online connections.
He starts meeting up.
So in 18 months, jb, he had hadover 30 same-sex encounters.
So it's just purely physicalpromiscuity and he's a youth
pastor and he's a youth pastor.

(19:24):
So and I think the Lord hadtaken me through that one
situation and softened my heartto this moment, and so in that
moment I didn't like lose myjunk with this guy.
I just said, hey, man, let'sget you some help.
Gotta, get you out of ministry,get you restored in your own
walk with Christ Like probablynot gonna be in ministry, let's
get you the help you need.

(19:44):
So I actually go to where hewas from, connect with his
pastor and said we, snowbird,want to help y'all, as his
church, walk him through this,get him what he needs.
So got him into some counseling, into a program where he was
being discipled.
He seemed to be repentant and Imean it was like he wanted to
do what he needed to do.

(20:06):
It was six months of working inthis program.
I stayed real connected to theguy.
He was out I won't say wherehe's at, but he was a few hours
from here and so I was talkingwith him once a week.
How's it going?
We kind of drifted from contactSnowbird and him, but I stayed
in touch with the pastor andthey were staying connected with

(20:28):
him.
So we ended up, I think, likeback at his parents' church and
got a job like at, say, best Buyor something like that.
He was a tech guy, so he got ajob at like a Best Buy or
something like that.
And then the next summer wereconnected and he was
struggling but doing okay.

(20:49):
He came up to camp and he cameto SWO.
We sat down, had a couple ofsit-down conversations.
That was kind of the end of itand then I just kind of lost
touch with him after that.
So maybe five years later sixyears, I think six years later
we were going to do whateventually would become a youth,
an annual youth pastorsconference that we used to do.

(21:10):
The first one we did we calledit a youth pastors round table.
We said anybody that works instudent ministry can come, this
guy shows up and he's got a wifeand a pregnant wife and a baby.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
It shows up.
You said this is like fiveyears later, yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, it shows up.
I'm like you said this is likefive years later.
Yeah, like five years later,okay.
So I'm like this is awesome.
Yeah, yeah, you got married toa girl.
Yeah, that's the idea man it'swhere you know, and so we're
excited and we're, he's excited.
The Lord gave me a wife.
It was a cool story.
They had a really cool storyhow God had brought him back.
Just a very redemptive story.

(21:47):
Then he had ended up there at achurch and the Lord just opened
up the door for them to be inministry.
They needed a youth pastor.
It's just a beautiful picture,I thought.
At the time of redemption andreconciliation he and his wife
are serving at this church.
They were booked.

(22:07):
They brought students thatsummer, brought students, I
think, the next summer.
Okay, so the next summer, john pand his bride bring their
students to snowbird yeah itjust happened that that summer
we had two young men who hadcome to us, independent of each
other, and said that they hadstruggled with same sex
attraction.
So we had a team of our guysand gals, uh, that were that

(22:33):
were addressing sort ofcounseling these.
These guys, just discipleship.
Now one of them had acted on it.
Um, I think he had.
He had, like his previous yearat college, he had had an
experience with a guy on hishall or something in his dorm,
something like that, and Godreally convicted him and he said

(22:53):
I can't go down this path.
And so he really wanted to gethelp.
And so he came to us and he hadworked a previous summer.
We had no idea, dude, did notlike like you wouldn't have
thought it, and you know what Imean when I say that yeah you
kind of you just wouldn't havepicked up on it yeah and then,
uh, so he came to us and sowe're working through this with

(23:16):
and when I say he had anencounter, it was, it was mildly
physical, I think.
It was like something happened.
It wasn't sexual, but it wasphysical, if that makes sense.
And then he it freaked him outbad enough, he's like I can't
get on this path.
He came to us and said, hey, Ineed some help.
So we had him here that summernot working with students and

(23:37):
nobody knew.
But but I think me, maybe ZachMabry and we're kind of just
helping him navigate.
Just helping him navigate,getting strong in that area, and
he had been doing really welland he was in a support role
here driving a bus or whatever.
Then another boy came thatsummer young man and said, hey,

(23:59):
I've got a struggle with this,so we start working through
things with him.
They ended up being friends andsharing that with each other,
which is very dangerous.
Yeah, when two gay guys or two,two same-sex attracted.
Uh, men or women become friends.
It's dangerous yeah but feltlike we had really good

(24:20):
parameters and we're helpingthese guys.
So we we had pulled both ofthem.
Just in case people werewondering, we didn't have them
working with students.
The second boy that came to ushad never acted on it.
Now I will say this.
I'll pause here and say one ofthe things that came out of this
is if we have a staff memberthat says they have the same-sex

(24:42):
attraction, we remove them fromministry because of this story.
There's too much of a chancefor something to happen.
So even in the, even in thehiring, like the application
process, if someone says thatthis is a struggle, they have
that sort of changes.
The course we go on in terms ofwhether or not we'll bring them
in and how we might help helpthem.

(25:03):
So we're very guarded in thisarea, yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
Well, even just like in the summers, you know you're
living closely, like even peoplewho are just have like
codependent friendships you know, those are very serious, and so
I can definitely see why, thatis such a big deal.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
That might be a good episode to do too, especially
with girls.
It is such a trend and atendency with girls to have
codependent relationships, andwe've dealt with it so much.
We had one of our missionarieshave to leave the mission field
because of this.
Yeah.
So anyway, we're keeping theseguys here and in a supporting

(25:45):
role.
So this guy, this youth pastor,john P, comes to camp, arrives
at camp with his students, andon day one I'm talking to him
and I said I said, hey, man,I've got a couple of young dudes
that it might be good for youand your wife to have a
conversation with.

(26:06):
Yeah.
Because they're discouraged.
One of them is struggling withthese same-sex attractions.
The other one is strugglingwith the attraction and has
acted on it, and so it might begood to have you all sit down.
Well, this guy, he had told meone time he said I can pick out
another person in a room.
Yeah, he said I can pick outanother person in a room, he
said I can pick out a personwho's same-sex attracted.

(26:28):
I can pick out either a gay manor a man that's struggling with
same-sex attraction.
When you wouldn't be able to,he said he made the joke, not my
joke.
Gay guy made this joke.
He said gaydar is a real thing.
My brain went right to theoffice.
So he saiddar is a real thing.
Yeah, my brain went right tothe office, yeah, so yeah, um,

(26:49):
he said we really.
He said it's crazy.
And these two boys, young men,did not, they weren't, they
weren't effeminate, maybe alittle bit once you knew it's
like, okay, I can see a littlebit, but for the most part they
were just dudes they're notwearing crop tops, and that's
right.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
You know they weren't like that's right.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
they weren't cross-dressing.
Yeah.
Putting on makeup yeah, andthey weren't.
What's the word kids use now?
Saucy or spicy.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
Zesty, zesty, yeah, zesty, that's the word, they
weren't.
They weren't even zesty.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
So I said hey, man.
I went back to him later and Isaid hey, forget it.
I don't want you to talk tothose boys and I know you said
you know who is who, but justforget, I said it.
I think the Holy Spirit putthat check in my spirit.
I talked to him on Monday nightat camp and literally before my
head hit the pillow Mondaynight it's like the Lord said no

(27:43):
, no, no, uh-uh, don't go there.
So I found him Tuesday morningat forget it, we're, we're
dealing with this.
I think it'd be better if wejust didn't.
Yeah Well, this is where thestory starts to turn crazy and
get dark.
He sought those boys out.
He figured out who they were.
Yeah.
Cause he?
Well, I'll tell you right now,this guy's a predator, so just
go ahead and insert that in astory.

(28:04):
He's a predator, yeah, and lotof people.
By getting married and having acouple of kids, by this point
they've got their second kid.
So this guy, he secretly seeksthese boys out, connects with
them, gives them his phonenumber and gets their numbers

(28:24):
and says, hey, if I can help you.
And he does it under the guiseof like.
On Thursday night he connectswith them and does it under the
guise of hey, I've been thereand I know what you're
struggling with, I can help you.
Well, I found out and Iconfronted him on Friday.
Yeah.
And I said hey, man, I told younot to do that and I'm telling

(28:45):
you right now, I forbid youcommunicating with these guys.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
Like the Lord just intensified the check in my
spirit, Especially after youknow already sneaking around and
pursuing them, seeking them out, Yep.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
So I made it real clear you're not to have any
communication, correspondencewith them after this.
So he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, Iunderstand, I'm sorry, and he
left.
Yeah, well, what he did was hecontinued to communicate with
them and one of those young menstayed here and was going to be,
was going to intern with us forthe next year.

(29:20):
So he what he does is he goesback to the town he was from and
he stays in correspondence withthese two young men and then he
asks them to come work astudent ministry event at his
church.
Like a D-NOW weekend where heneeded some extra help.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
But just them two.
But he only asked them two.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
He said hey, we're doing a student ministry event.
I need some help.
I don't really have anyvolunteers at my church.
Could you all come out and takepart in this?
So they say yeah, yeah, we cando it.
They go out there.
It's like a friday night event,a saturday event.
Saturday night they're gonna,they're staying and then go to
church sunday with students andthen come home saturday night

(30:02):
when his wife and and two girlsget him.
I think he had two.
I think now this part yeah I'm,but I think he had two daughters
, two little girls, I think.
Thank.
God yeah.
I mean, I don't know, that'sjust where my mind goes.
Like what you know.
So which doesn't mean them twolittle girls were safe Predators

(30:23):
are predators.
So he gets those boys andbasically introduces them to
some internet pornography.
I think Some same-sex theystart watching.
I don't know the details, but Ithink they started off.
They watched a movie, the wifeand kids were in bed and they go

(30:43):
up into his man cave study room, whatever game room.
I think he was a gamer, so Ithink they went up in his game
room that's where he had themstay in and it turned.
I don't know what went on, butthey had a gay, three-way gay
experience, homosexual thing,okay.
So then the next day they gothim to go to church yeah, when
he's a youth pastor.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
It's baffling.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
Now the one boy, so both these boys.
This was their first sexualexperience in that same-sex
world.
The one boy had had somethinghappen before, but this is their
first.
This is their like in oneevening, immersed into the
same-sex world.
I will pause here and say thoseboys that took them down that
path and they've not come backfrom it.

(31:26):
Years later I mean it's ruinedlives.
So about I think it was aboutmaybe a month later, I get a
call from the pastor of the oneboy.
He said, hey, this young manjust came and confessed this and
told me this story.
He said there's a youth pastorthat he met when he was working

(31:48):
at Snowbird.
And here's what happened.
And the pastor, who's a goodfriend of mine, a good, not a
close friend, but a closeministry partner.
So I trust this guy, he trustsus.
He called so he said here'swhat he's saying happened.
So I went and got the young manthat was here.
I went it was late at night.
I went and got him out of hisbunk I mean, I'm not even living

(32:11):
on campus or whatever, I go andget him out of his bunk and I
said we got to talk, did thishappen?
And he said yeah, and he justkind of spilled the beans.
He told me everything.
He was crying and he said youknow, I feel like basically my
life is completely upside down.
So I reach out to this youthpastor and I said you're done,

(32:37):
yeah, you're done Like no moreministry, you're stepping away.
Yeah.
We can't charge you withanything because these are legal
adults, they're not minors,yeah.
Yep.
But you're done in ministry andhe's like freaking out and I
said you go resign tomorrow.
I called him that night, wokehim up and so he goes the next

(32:59):
day, talks to his pastor.
Pastor is an older guy, like inhis 70s, and he's getting ready
to retire.
In like six months he'sretiring from ministry.
So they've already got a pastorsearch committee.
They're trying to find the nextguy and he tells this youth
pastor, he tells John.
He's like hey, it's okay,everybody makes mistakes.
There's grace in this, let'sjust get through this.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Just trying to like sweep it under the rug.
Sweep it under the rug.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
Golly.
So I called John P that nightand I said all right, did you
resign and did you tell thepastor what happened?
He said, well, I told thepastor what happened and he
doesn't want me to resign.
So then I said okay, and and Ithink this was now on like a
Saturday, friday or Saturday butI said I'm going to be, and

(33:47):
this was not a short drive towhere this church in this town
was.
I said I'm bringing somesnowbird guys.
We're coming to church Sunday.
We're going to come into yourSunday morning worship service
and announce what you have done.
And I promise you and I thinkthis dude knew I would do it I
said I will stand up in thefront of your church and
announce what you have done assoon as right when the service

(34:10):
is about to start.
And that turned into I ended upback on the phone with I ended
up on the phone.
I'd never talked to the seniorpastor, but I ended up on the
phone with this older pastor whosaid we'll have the police
there, and I was like, perfect,yeah, great, that's great,
that'll draw more attention,yeah.
And so I mean it was.
I said, and I'll have a wholeteam of folks come with me that

(34:32):
know, what's going on, andbecause at this point there was
a team of us on this side thatknew what was going on.
Yeah, so the guy ended up hesaid, no, no, don't do that,
I'll resign.
So he resigned, but he didn'ttell anybody why he was
resigning and I'm like it's fine, I don't care, just get out of
ministry and I said don't you,don't go back in ministry.

(34:53):
Yeah, this guy agrees to resign.
And then I just said to him nowkeep in mind, I'm not doing
this solo.
This is involved in this, whereSpencer Davis, rob Conti, zach
Mabry Um, I brought themimmediately into it, um, and so
I just said you're done, don'tever, I'm done with you.
Yeah.
Um, and so I just said you'redone, don't ever I'm done with

(35:14):
you.
Yeah, you're done Like you'redone.
This is uh I think it's uhfirst Corinthians five, first,
or second Corinthians five,where um Paul says, hey, this
guy who's having an affair withhis dad's wife, um, and is
unrepentant and still keepstrying to go through the church
motions or whatever, like, cuthim off and have nothing to do
with him, treat him as someonewho like, as an enemy.
So in my mind there is I'mcareful to say this because we

(35:39):
always you know, galatians 6, 1and 2 says brothers, if any of
you is overtaken in a fault or asin you who are spiritual work
to restore that person.
It's a very powerfulinstruction for the church and
it's very confrontational.
It's like, hey, you know, paulsays there, but for the grace of
god, do I go in that same path,path or pattern of sin?

(36:01):
And he tells the galatians ifsomeone's overtaken and sin,
help them, help restore them.
But he also in his letter tocorinthians says there's a time
where you have nothing else todo with a person.
I think for listeners I don'twant to paint the picture that
on that day we just said we'redone with this guy.

(36:23):
There had been a lot of effortgone into restoring this guy.
Multiple there had been on thefront end of this at the
beginning of this story.
There had been a year of usreally being involved in helping
restore this guy just as abeliever and and so we had been
involved in his restorationprocess.
Then we had been involved twoyears of ministry together with

(36:43):
him coming to Snowbird.
We had, we had re likereignited that partnership and
his wife was now involved.
We're at a point now where I'mgoing this dude, this dude's an
enemy, he's a, he's a wolf insheep's clothing, and now my
responsibility is to protect thepeople God's got us entrusted
with him.
He's not coming on our property.

(37:05):
He's not welcome on our property.
He will not step foot on thisproperty.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
Well, even like, not in not as serious of a context,
but this weekend I went back tocollege and helped with the D
now and I was with sixth andseventh grade girls and one of
these girls like just was sospun out, even just like the way
her parents her parents, fromwhat it seemed like to me, are
just like big, almost likeconspiracy theorists and aren't

(37:31):
really walking with the Lord.
But just how like that evenjust spun her walk with the Lord
out and she's so confused andlike and I've just been thinking
like even something as silly aslike a conspiracy theory or
like like her parents, sheliterally said well, my parents
believe that the earth is flat.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Oh, they're flat earthers.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
And that has like spun her out and has put so much
doubt and stuff in her brain.
So even something as like thathas spun this girl's walk with
the Lord out.
So much I'm with you.
Like very heavy precautionsneed to be taken, especially
with this.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Because, like you said, those boys have, you know,
it's spun them out and they'venot returned to the Lord of the
actions of this, back to, ifyou're a parent, yeah, a small
group leader, yeah, an oldersibling, um, a pastor, a youth
pastor, we have a responsibility.
Anytime you're in a position ofinfluence and leadership, you
have a responsibility to somedegree for the protection of
those people.
You've been entrusted withspiritual protection, emotional
protection, of course, physicalprotection, and so in that story

(38:55):
you're telling I mean, yeah,this girl is, she's being
destabilized in in some wayswhere you think, dang man, these
people are, they're creating,if nothing else, they're
creating a a very suspicious,untrusting, like there needs to
be a level of suspicion I think,yeah, um, I don't want to just

(39:17):
trust what somebody says, butthey're there, so I want.
I want to teach my kids to be uh, don't believe everything you
hear, don't believe everythingyou see yeah but you don't want
to create a complete,overwhelming attitude of
suspicion and doubt where nobodycan be trusted.
So there's always that fine line.

(39:38):
But in this situation I'msaying this guy, we're done,
we're not restoring you toanything, you're the enemy.
Don't ever come back, even ifyou come back in an attitude of
repentance which I told youanother story that we're not
gonna get into here today butwith that the young man was
repentant but I said, okay, it'sgreat, but you can't come back
to Snowbird ever again, becausewhat you did you?

(39:59):
You forfeited that right.
I'll meet you halfway somewherefor coffee once a month and or
we get a burger.
Well, I'll be your friend andand help, mentor and disciple
you, but you are not welcome onthe property of Snowbird
Outfitters because you've poseda threat.
And even if you no longer arethat threat, the people here
that I've been entrusted withneed to know that I'm going to

(40:20):
protect what God's entrusted meto protect.
So I told that guy, you can'tcome back.
And I said not only that, butthe students that you were
leading.
Snowbird's partnership withchurches is that we get to speak
into those students' lives sothey become our students as well
.
We're sharing in thatdiscipleship and I feel a sense

(40:43):
of responsibility to thestudents that you were leading,
and so I just told him youbetter never enter student
ministry again, and I said I'mgoing to be watching, and by
this point we were in the era ofsocial media was just getting
going and so you could use.
I want to say, Facebook wasaround by this point and I've

(41:03):
never been on Facebook, but Iknew we had Snowbird has always
had social media accounts, likeso.
So what I did was I justcommitted to start once a year
checking up on this guy, where'she at?

Speaker 3 (41:17):
following through.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
So about I don't know .
I want to say maybe three yearsgo by and he's off the off the
radar.
He finally resurfaced, maybelike he had.
Maybe he'd gotten on facebookor social media and I was using
I was having snowbirds mediaperson, just like I would say,
hey, look for this guy.
And so, uh, one day I talked toher the gal that was doing

(41:44):
media at the time and I said,hey, see if you can find this
guy.
And she says, hey, I foundsomething interesting.
And I circled back and he isthe new student pastor at a
large first baptist church, andwhen I say large, I mean a
good-sized church so I know he'sgot a good-sized youth group.
He's like what?
the heck.
Yeah, so I call that pastor.

(42:06):
Yeah, it's been like threeyears.
I call that pastor and I saidmaybe it's been a year and a
half, two years.
It hadn't been that long.
It was long enough that I thinkhe thought I'm under the radar,
I can resurface.
So I call that pastor and Isaid, hey, before I get into
this conversation, I want totell you my name, the name of

(42:26):
the ministry I'm a part of, andI want to give you some
references from within theSouthern Baptist denomination.
And I'm not going to say thosenames here, but I put out the
names of some very influentialleaders one who was the
president of the SouthernBaptist Convention, maybe at
that time or had recently been.

(42:48):
One who was a vice presidentwith the North American Mission
Board, and one who was a vicepresident with the North
American mission board and onewho was a vice president with
the international mission board.
So these were very influentialpeople.
I'm like these men will speakfor me to my credibility.
Yeah, um, and I'd like to.
I need, I need to have aconversation with you about your
, your new student pastor.

(43:09):
So just lay it out there.
Well, the guy, the guy took itvery serious and he was freaked
out and he said here's, here'sthe problem.
He is currently in the UKleading a mission trip of young
of of college students.
So I'm like my blood startsboiling.
I mean, my blood was boiling, Iwanted to fly, boiling, I
wanted to fly, I wanted to flyto london.

(43:30):
And I literally said to thisguy hey, like literally told
this pastor hey, I'll get on aplane and fly to london right
now if you know where he's at.
Yeah, I'll go confront this.
Yes, because if not, the dangeris if you've got a young man on
this trip that's struggled with, yeah, same-sex attraction or
who's real unstable, because alot of young dudes they've been

(43:53):
damaged or wounded, they carrydaddy wounds and they're not gay
, they don't have same-sexattraction, but they're very
manipulatable easily manipulatedand they're vulnerable in their
weak place in their lives asthey're forming their way into
adulthood.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
That's the kind of guy predator is going to go
after and I don't know, in aarea of a mission trip or church
group, like you're, even morevulnerable.
You think you can trust thesepeople.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
You know exactly your guard is down yep yeah, and you
know as well as I do from doingcamp ministry on those trips
that guy guard is down and thenstarts to lean into late-night
conversations.
It starts playing out in mymind so.
I tell this pastor I'm soserious about this I'll fly to.
London right now.
He said well, I'll get back withyou, Let me make some calls.

(44:42):
So I talked to the pastor thenext day and he had sort of
cooled off on this.
He was no longer like he seemedvery.
He was seemed very freaked out,alarmed and urgent that first
day.
The next day he said, hey, Ithink you know we're gonna let
him get back and we're gonnahave a conversation.
And I said well, I would like tocome to your church and bring

(45:03):
my leadership team yeah bringthree brothers who we would like
to make a formal biblicalaccusation against this man in
the room with him and with youand your elders from your church
.
We want to do this right.
We want to do it biblically.
I want you to know how seriouswe are.
I'm going to make a phone calland say what I say.
So the pastor said I appreciatethat.

(45:23):
So I won't get into the weedsof what happened in this part of
the story, but the dude didn'tstay at this church, yeah it.
The pastor didn't handle it theway I wish he would have, yeah,
but it got taken care of and Ithink what he did was he let he
let this guy give an accounting,and the guy knew that the

(45:43):
pastor had talked to me.
Yeah, and the guy, the guy justmoved on.
But the pastor didn't really.
Anyway, yeah.
So he moved on.
So that was the end of that.
Well, a few years later, we'resitting around the fire one
night at camp, Me and a guy thatwas working at SWO at the time,
Gar Bozeman, who our listenerswill know.

(46:04):
Gar Bozeman was preparing to goto the mission field we were
going to send him out and he wasgoing to go with an
organization that SWO waslooking to partner with.
And so we're having aconversation me, Gar, I think,
Rob and Spencer there, and a guy, a pastor, a friend of ours, a
pastor named Duncan, who pastorsa church in the same town as

(46:27):
one of the young men that hadbeen swept up in this thing yeah
we're having a conversationabout this guy and I said I
haven't looked for that guy inin probably a year yeah um,
let's see if we can track himdown.
I don't have facebook, I justgoogle the guy's name yeah and I
don't really get anywhere.

(46:48):
And in the Gar starts lookingfor the guy and finds out the
guy is now working for themissions organization that Gar
was partnered up with.
And Gar was in the fundraisingstage and Gar had gone through
all the background check stuffand the psych evaluation.

(47:08):
Most missions organizations doa big psych evaluation because
you're going to go live inanother culture yeah and so um.
In the conversation gar said man, this dude's working for this
organization and he was workingfor this organization has two or
three other organizations undertheir umbrella that are sort of
independent operating.
And he was.
He was, with one of those wholisten, work in London with

(47:33):
college-age students doingmission trips.
Yep, I'm like okay, yeah.
Which come to find out fouryears prior, when I called that
pastor from that First BaptistChurch and they were on that
mission trip.
That was the organization theywere going through.
So when this boy, when thisdude, left that church, he just
went with that he had madeconnections, so he joined up

(47:55):
with that organization whichtold me he had made it through
their psych evaluation.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
Yes.
So this turns into Even justthinking of, like your
references on your what's thatthing called?

Speaker 1 (48:10):
On your application.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
Yeah, like how easy it was for him to manipulate and
jump through those hoops.
Yep Golly.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
Which predators are master manipulators.
You see that I think I toldy'all this.
Maybe I might not have tell meif I didn't where the guy that
was a predator who was a gymcoach yeah, yeah, we were
talking about that, yeah so forour listeners is there's a an
interview it's probably seven oreight years old and a news uh
it's.
It's like a news um story wherethis lady, she's like a news

(48:44):
reporter, she's interviewingthis guy.
It's like one of those showslike 48 hours or something and
she's in his home and he isprobably in his 70s and he did
like 30 years in prison forsexual assault of children and
he was a pe teacher and coachyeah and he was doing it uh,

(49:05):
doing that when he was like inhis 20s and 30s and he was
sexually abusing these boys.
And now he's in his 70s.
He got released, he's home andshe's interviewing him and he's
just very candid.
I mean it's, it's disturbinghow casually he's talking about
it.
She says what were your targets?
And he said I looked for forboys that I knew were vulnerable
.
They were poor.

(49:26):
Um, that you know I would.
I would start the groomingprocess by using treats, candy
gifts, gifts, things like thatwin them over.
But he said something that wasinteresting.
He said I never messed with aboy that had the presence of a
father in his life.
He said if he had a dad who wasinvested in him, who was present
, who was a strong presence inthat boy's life.

(49:47):
I didn't even go down that path.
So he looked for boys that werevulnerable, and that's the way
predators work.
So, the point being, predatorsare master manipulators.
They study situations and theymanipulate people, and so this
guy had manipulated his way intothis organization, still
married with two kids.
I didn't even get into this,but part of that, the first blow

(50:09):
up, was I said your wife'sgoing to know, and he told her
and I communicated with her andshe knew.
So he's still married with thesekids and he's now working for
this missions organization.
By this point I want to say hisyoungest kid is like college
age.
So this has been years of thisprocess, and so I want to wrap

(50:30):
the story up.
I want to wind it down, butwhat ends up happening is I end
up in conversation in meetingswith the president of this
organization.
I end up on a Zoom call withthe person overseeing the team
leader for all of themissionaries with this
organization for.
Europe and then the direct teamleader for the team.

(50:51):
This guy's on in London yeah,I'm on a Zoom call.
I can still remember where Iwas at.
I was coming out of WestVirginia, I had been on a
ministry trip.
I'd been up to ChesapeakeMountain Ranch, I think, and I'm
driving back and I had pulledover at a coffee shop where I
could get good internet becauseI had to do this Zoom call.
The head of the team in London,the VP over that organization,

(51:25):
the regional European, like allEurope, this is a big missions
organization.
I'll just say it because theydid their job well in this.
It's Converge International.
Converge is the organizationand the way they handled this
impressed me.
I've got like four Convergeofficials a country guy, a team
guy and then like a VP, andwe're on a zoom call, yeah, and

(51:47):
I told them the whole story.
They said all right, we'regonna address it.
And the the guy, the London guy.
He said actually, um, I, Ithink he's gonna resign because
he said I told him that we hadsomething we were going to have
to address, something that hadcome to our attention and I've
got a meeting set up with him.
And the guy said did you talkto Brody Holloway or the people

(52:08):
from Snowbird Outfitters?

Speaker 3 (52:09):
Yeah, so he walked in his office.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Walked in his office and knew that In London, england
, he's in London, he's in the UKwhen you first told me that
story.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
me and Katie were like it literally sounds like a
scene out of like Taken or somelike movie.
Like he knows you're trackinghim down, like you're not
relenting.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Yep, yep, yeah, yeah, I think he knew it and he's,
you know, he's living with aguilty conscience conscience
looking over his shoulder.
And so he resigned and theyfired.
They removed him.
I think they fired him, removedhim, yeah, and they removed him
.
I think they fired him, removedhim.
He didn't get to resign.
They said you're done, and thenthey dealt with it.
And so I ended up in Orlando,which is where the headquarters

(52:49):
of Converge is, in a meetingwith their new they call it like
head of security.
It's the guy when you gothrough the psyche valve.
This is the new guy and he wentback.
He's the guy that you gothrough the psyche vow.
This is the new guy and he wentback.
He's the guy that pulled allthe records and he said he
should have never made it intoour organization.
The person that did his psychevow is no longer with that
organization.
He got fired.

(53:10):
He got removed yeah converge isI.
I give them thumbs up the waythey handled it for sure um.
So I'm still tracking a dudeyeah uh, we, I recently tracked
him like, found him.
He's got an online presence.
I had I had some folks in ourmedia team yeah, um, look him up
and yeah he's not working aministry that I know of, but his

(53:30):
children are now adults.
Yeah, dude's a sicko and apredator yeah so the point being
um I if, if you're, if you'regoing to be in any kind of
leadership like there's no daysoff.
Yeah.
And there's not like.
You don't ever get to retirefrom it.
Yeah.
There's going to be some degreeof commitment you've got to

(53:51):
maintain and, jb, you know aswell as I do the hundreds and
thousands of young girls andboys that we've had to fill out
reports on do mandatoryreporting.
We see a lot of abuse victimscome through here and a lot of
times the first time they'veever shared it is with us.
And then also I will say thiswe're careful how we navigate

(54:13):
that because kids lie too.
We'll have a kid come in andmake up a story and then we find
out real quick.
This is a very short story.
We had a boy accuse another boyin the youth group of something
and this boy was like a ninthgrade kid and he accused this

(54:33):
kid, who had just graduated fromhigh school, of doing something
inappropriate in the room andwe addressed it and and ended up
calling the.
Uh.
We had a, a, a police, asheriff's investigator come in
and talk to the boys and we gotpretty far down that path and

(54:54):
including I had a conversationwith the accused older boy's dad
.
He called and I ended up on thephone with him and anyway, come
find out, the little boy madethe whole thing up.
The ninth grade boy made thewhole thing up, just to get at
this older kid.
So you know, we always we pressinto these things.
We had a, we had a staff memberin uh 2014.

(55:16):
We had a summer staff member onweek one of camp, on night one
of camp.
Let's see, no, it wasn't night.
One Camp starts on Monday, aweek of camp.
So it was like I think it wason Thursday evening.
It was either Tuesday night orThursday.
What night did we used to dothe dunk contest and the block

(55:37):
party?

Speaker 3 (55:38):
I think Tuesday night , because Thursday was rodeo.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
That's right thursday was rescue, so it was tuesday
night.
So camp started on monday,tuesday night of week one.
This kid who's gone through ourbackground check all of our
staff training he's got a smallgroup leader who's he's got a
community group leader, a fireteam leader.
He's like very handled and hehad on day one of rec on tuesday

(56:01):
.
He had isolated a, a girl, 14year old girl, and really shown
her a lot of attention.
I think she's a little bit boycrazy maybe you know like just
like getting attention from a 19, 20 year old dude, and so he
had sort of done this like superfast, grooming with this girl
and then that evening during the, during the block party, at
slow he gets her off in a darkspot and it's just kind of

(56:25):
putting the moves on her.
I mean he didn't like full-ontry to rape this girl yeah but
he goes hands-on with her, yeah,gropes her breast, and one of
our staff girls, thank god comeswalking up as this girl it.
It freaked this girl out enough, she pulled away from him and
it created an awkward scene.
So our girl comes walking upand says what's going on?

(56:47):
And then he just kind ofstumbles over his words and gets
out of there.
And but, we had him arrestedthat night Once.
We we drilled into thesituation, got all parties
involved and he admitted to iton camera.
We set up a camera, startrecording, we interview him.
You see, I did it, um, and wehad him arrested.
Yeah, and um, I was not allowedto interact with him.

(57:11):
I think you know mugs and umrob, and and some folks realized
it wouldn't be good for me tobe in a room with that guy and
so I was not allowed.
They got before, they called me, they already had a sheriff's
deputy and an investigator here,so I wasn't allowed to interact
with that guy, which I thinkwas wise.
I think I had a problem.
I don't know if I could havecontrolled my temper, but we had

(57:34):
him arrested.
I went and talked to thesheriff and said, hey, he's not
welcome on property.
I want to.
I want to restrain an order orwhatever.
Yeah and uh, his granddad ordad or somebody came.
He was a pastor's kid, but theycame and picked him up from
jail.
They bonded him out within afew hours.
He didn't spend the night injail, I think he spent five
hours in jail.
They got him out of there andthen I tracked that case and

(58:03):
they pled it out to amisdemeanor.
It should have been sexualassault of a minor.
But it takes diligence andvigilance and a commitment, no
matter how long it takes.
Sad story, that young lady.
We ended up her dad was a copand we flew her dad and mom from
their hometown.
We flew them to Atlanta, rentedthem a car.
They came on up we met with him.
What do we need to do?
How do we need to handle this?

(58:24):
It was great.
They were very gracious.
They were thankful for the waywe dealt with it yeah um, but
that young lady I was killed ina car wreck last year.
She would have been like 24, Ithink.
Yeah, she got killed in a carwreck.
I was talking with her.
Her youth pastor is a goodfriend of mine.
Yeah, but those you know.

(58:45):
If you are in ministry longenough, you're going to have
some heartbreaking stories, butyou're also going to have some
stories where you're going toneed to act.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
Yes, yeah, I think when we're talking through this,
there's a couple of things thatcome to mind, the first being,
of like, at the very beginningof those two boys and even that
youth pastor, you know beingopen with you and others, you
know, to get help, I think, likethat takes so much courage and
like vulnerability and, like yousaid, it had the potential to

(59:14):
be such a redeeming moment.
But I was just talking with oneof my friends of like there's
some stuff that you are going tostruggle with your whole entire
life and we can't be naive tothat, like you know.
Like whether that's same-sexattraction or self-harm thoughts
or like whatever it is, and solike I'm bad about, you know,
dealing with something reallyheavily when it first arises.

(59:37):
And then I'm like, okay, I cankind of take a step you know I
dealt with that and then kind oflike taken off the reins a
little bit, but then it's likerealizing, no, like I have to
stay on top of this.
So kind of like my heart breaksa little bit, cause it's like it
the Lord has that redeemingpower and but it's like you have
to stay on that Like if you'realmost in that position, of like

(01:00:01):
you are struggling withsame-sex or like whatever it is,
even if it's gossip or lying,whatever it's like.
Just you can't be naive tothose things, you know, just
staying like if it.
It takes already so muchboldness and courage to open up
about those things and that's'ssuch a great thing.
But it's like even just in thisstory of like how Satan even

(01:00:23):
turned that and use that andwrecked it.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Yeah, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
And then also, um, a couple of years ago I watched
this documentary on YouTube.
It's called sheep among wolvesand it's about I think it was
made like 10 years ago, so it'sabout, um, the persecuted church
and like Islamic and Muslimcountries.
Um, it's about, um thepersecuted church in like
islamic and muslim countries.
Um, it's a pretty rawdocumentary.
It's kind of a hard watch, butthey're talking about, you know,

(01:00:49):
obviously like sheep amongwolves and in that instance
they're talking about like Ithink when I in my like
westernized america, americanbrain, I think sheep among
wolves kind of like this storyof like you know, kind of a
sneaky person who might be likeentrusted.
You know they have like bits oftruth.

(01:01:09):
Like you know, they're justvery manipulative, but in this
documentary they're talkingabout, you know, like isis and
like like very, I guess morelike aggressive, like wolves per
se.
Um, but they interviewed thiswoman who, um, her family was
under attack and they were ableto move her family to america
for protection and she said,within like two months of being

(01:01:32):
in america, she said she almostwanted to go back just because
of like the manipulation of you,you know, like, wow, like
wolves per se quote unquote inMuslim and Islamic countries.
You know, you know who they are.
They dress like wolves.
You know like they're.
They're outwardly coming foryou.
They're not hiding that.

(01:01:53):
They're coming for you.
But she said in America withintwo months, like I just felt
such like a sneaky attack on myfamily of these like wolves that
are just so hidden and somanipulative, and when we got
started talking about this, Iwas thinking about that like wow
, like very scary and likeeyeopening of like, yes, there

(01:02:14):
are two very different types ofwolves and are going to attack
in very different ways.
But it is like I think I justkeep thinking like we can't be
naive in situations Like, likeyou were saying, we have to have
some sort of suspicion always.
You know you don't want toalways live like on edge or,
like you were saying, like um indoubt, but it is like very

(01:02:35):
crucial, especially if you're ina leadership position of any
kind, you know, very crucial,especially if you're in a
leadership position of any kind.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
You know.
Yeah, I think you have to.
You know, one of the thingsthat we try to teach our staff
and that I've tried to do in myown life and that I've tried to
teach my kids is live, live,knowing.
Just don't be naive and don'tbe paranoid.
You know, I don't want to beparanoid and think everybody
walks through the door as a wolfin sheep's clothing.

(01:03:03):
Yeah.
I don't want to think thateverybody comes here as a
manipulator.
Yeah.
I don't want to think every timeI see a preacher on TV or on
YouTube that he's that guy.
Yeah, but I also don't want tobe naive.
Yeah, and there's people thatif it walks like a duck, quacks

(01:03:23):
like a duck, looks like a duck,swims like a duck, flies, it's a
dadgum duck.
But then, there's also peoplewhere it's not that cut and dry.
You know, when you got theseguys that have a track record of
infidelity or they're multi-m,multi, multi-millionaire pastors
who are, who are making a lotof money and you can, you can

(01:03:46):
sniff it out, but then there'speople like there's guys, that I
just don't like.
Yeah.
Like the like that verdict dudein Charlotte.
I don't like that guy.
Now I don't.
I don't have any accusationagainst that guy where I can say
, hey, that dude'smanipulatingation.
Against that guy where I cansay, hey, that dude's
manipulating me.
But that guy lives in a $14million house and wears a $2,500
sweater on Easter Sunday.

(01:04:06):
I don't like him.
Baby, I don't like him.
Me and him don't need to be inthe same room.
I don't care how much he benchpresses and curls looking at the
mirror at his spray tan tanktop to body, I don't care.
I don't need to be in the sameroom with that guy.
I don't like him, and that guyis an example of sometimes it's
not like oh, I know that guy's amanipulator.

(01:04:27):
I know he's an abuser or a wolf, maybe not.
I think he's just lost his way.
The main thing's no longer themain thing.
So we need to not be paranoidwhere we think everybody's a
predator.
We need to not be naive wherewe trust everybody and so it's
kind of living in that sense ofdiscernment as Christians.
The scripture says that thespiritual man is discerned.

(01:04:51):
So trust the Holy Spirit tospeak discerning discretion to
you and if something feels off,trust that and press into that.
If you get a weird feeling fromsomebody, maybe look into that
and, as a dad or a mom, bevigilant, know what your kids
are watching and who they'recommunicating with.

(01:05:12):
As a youth pastor, speak thetruth and pay attention to who's
around, your students Like wegot to be involved and I can
tell you this I take my job veryserious.
We've got to be involved.
I can tell you this I take myjob very serious.
I take my calling very serious.
I take the fact that if 12,000teenagers would come through SWO
this year, that's 24,000parents and 48,000 grandparents

(01:05:33):
that are entrusting us foranywhere from two to five days
with their kids.
I take that serious.
As a dad and a granddad, as ahusband, as a pastor and a
leader, I take it serious andI'm going to protect them while
they're here I can tell you thatand I'm going to protect them
when they leave here if there'san opportunity to, and I think
that's the mindset we've got tohave.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
Yeah, A couple years ago, I think, at a Winterswo,
spencer had one of his sermonsabout like sheep among the
wolves and something that'salways stuck with me is he uses
the example of people who studylike counterfeit money.
They don't study all the fakes,they study the real, like US

(01:06:13):
government, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
The real bill so that they know when a fake or a
fraud comes in.
That's not right.
And so same thing with like.
Like even sometimes I'll listento documentaries or podcasts
about like cults and it's like,it's crazy how kind of like you
were saying like they start withtruth, like it doesn't sound
crazy, you know.
Then they just slowly start tolose their way and then you know
like it's just crazy Cause I'lleven listen to like Colton.
I'm like, no, that is like someof that aligns with what I

(01:06:45):
believe, like you know, at thebeginning of the cult and then
they just start to lose theirway.
So it's like really justknowing truth and studying truth
and like you were saying, Ithink that kind of combats of
like not being paranoid, but ifyou know the truth in God's word
, then you'll know whensomething comes across, it's
like you know raises some redflags, or you know yeah, the

(01:07:07):
closer a lie is to the truth,the more believable it is yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
You know it's.
It's those subtle little twistson the truth.
Yeah, my cousin Scott, who wehad on after the trump
assassination attempt theretired secret service guy.
That's where he's the one thatwas telling us about counterfeit
money.
And I because when?
So secret service is now undermaybe like department of

(01:07:33):
homeland security, but when hiscareer started it was under the
department of treasury and hehas some crazy stories where
he's working counterfeit,they're busting counterfeit
rings.
And I asked him I was like howdo you know?
He said oh, I think I asked himhow many types, how many
counterfeit operations.

(01:07:53):
He said thousands.
He said you can never keep upwith all the counterfeit stuff,
so all you got to do is keep upwith the real thing.
You know what the real thing is.
It doesn't matter if there'sone counterfeit or 10,000
counterfeits, they will all beexposed because they're not the
real bill.
That's where the phrase thereal bill came from.
So, yeah, I think that the Lordhas made it clear that, and by

(01:08:15):
their fruit you'll know them.
Yep, yep.
And I think one of the thingsthat has stood the test of time
and legitimizes Snowbird so wellis the fruit of those people
that have come through thisministry and are now mamas and
daddies, and leaders.

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
Yeah, Even just this past summer, I think, we had
four people that had originallyworked with you back in Virginia
circled back.
Their kids are now working onstaff.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
That's so cool, it's so crazy, yeah yeah, that we uh,
harry and I finishing up the,the last the books going to the
final edit.
This Friday is the deadline,then it'll head off for the
final edit.
But in the intro there's asection where and we've got a
picture where, in 1997, Ibrought a work crew down from
that camp.
I was working at.
And the Fletcher kids their momwas on that trip, the Rays their

(01:09:05):
dad and mom were on that tripJosh and Danielle, and then the
Rammels Austin Rammel was onthat trip.
Crazy.
So, crazy.
Yes so generations now ofministry, almost 30 years later,
28 years later, crazy, yeah,Crazy, crazy years later 28
years later.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
Crazy, yeah, crazy, crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
All right, everybody can keep your head on a swivel.
There's crazy people, peopleout there.
Oh, one other thing I want tosay before we wrap this up.
Uh, no, two things.
Two things to wrap it up.
One, the the two young men inthat story.
I want people to know that westayed very connected to them.
Eventually, we lost them, theywalked away.
But the young man that was hereas an intern, we had to remove

(01:09:45):
him.
Um, he wasn't able to stay inthis because we got guys living
yeah in dorms together soquarters, very close quarters,
and it just it was too much totry to, there was no way we
could could really.
So what we did is he moved offcampus and got a job and we met

(01:10:08):
with him weekly for that nextyear and then he went off to
school or something like that.
So it is important to continueto do the hard work of you know,
I think a lot of people arelike, yeah, I want to be the
tough guy that chases off thepredator.
Yeah.
Oh no, that was the easy part.
Yeah.
Telling that guy I'm going tocrack his skull is easy.

(01:10:28):
Doing the hard work of tryingto pick up the pieces and
minister to those boys over thenext year was very difficult.
Yeah, and then, just so peopleknow how serious we take
security.
Um, just so people know howserious we take security, I mean
we just went through a threeday security training, our
annual training here, where webring in class of guys that we
can't even post their namebecause they donate the time.

(01:10:50):
They are state departmentemployees who train federal
agents.
One of them has written thecurriculum for active shooter
training for government agenciesand law enforcement agencies.
Um, and so, just so people knowwe take every aspect of this
serious, we have, in a worshipservice at the Super Coop, at
Snowbird Outfitters, we have sixarmed people in strategic

(01:11:15):
positions.
I'm not talking about just oh,I've got a concealed carry
permit and I've got a gun.
Like no.
We have six people positionedstrategically around the
building For people to know whatthis means.
We have two long guns.
That means not just somebodywith a pistol in their belt.
We have two long guns instrategic positions in case an
active shooter shows up.
We go to those lengths, butwhere we're going?

(01:11:42):
to see damage done is going tobe a youth pastor.
He's a predator, or?
A dad or a you know what I mean, yeah, so anyway, I want to do
another one of these.
I've got a couple other storiesI'd like to tell one that I
want to tell.
Uh, maybe when we get offlinehere I'll go ahead and tell you
and see if you think it'd be agood one, okay that's crazy um
but stories from around theglobe.
That's part of what we do and Ithink people connect with these.

(01:12:02):
So thank y'all for listeningand we'll catch you next week.

Speaker 4 (01:12:06):
Thanks for listening to no Sanity Required.
Please take a moment tosubscribe and leave a rating.
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Visit us at SWOutfitterscom tosee all of our programming and
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