Staying Faithful in the FBI | A Wife’s Perspective

In this episode, Clay and Brenda Hicks share a candid look at marriage, family, and faith under the weight of a high-risk calling. Clay shares some unbelievable stories from his years in federal law enforcement, while Brenda offers perspective on holding a home together when his job is unpredictable. Together, they reflect on the tension between danger and devotion and how God’s sovereignty provides stability when everything else feels uncertain.

They speak honestly about building unity in marriage amid pressure, protecting their kids’ peace, and learning to rest in God’s control when outcomes can’t be managed. It’s a grounded conversation about resilience, obedience, and the steadying presence of faith when life refuses to stay steady.

Staying Faithful in the FBI (Parts 1&2)

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_06 (00:00):
Okay, y'all.
We're just gonna roll straightinto this part three episode.
Um, I do just want to say I amso, so grateful and thankful for
Clay and Brenda.
They came to the marriageconference and they came a few
days early and just sat downwith us and they were great.
I really appreciate just uh allthe things that they had to

(00:21):
share.
Brenda just shared some greatnuggets of wisdom and it was
just really cool to hear fromboth of them.
So I'm really grateful for them.
They're both so well spoken, andI think Brody mentioned it on a
previous episode, but Clay trulyis a master storyteller, and you
are just hooked.
Like he just paints such a greatpicture.

(00:41):
So I really hope you guys haveenjoyed these episodes.
Um, Brody, I'll give you guys alittle update.
Brody is traveling, he ishunting out in Ohio.
He's got to spend some good timewith Tuck and Little.
They've been hunting, and Ithink he killed honestly, I'm
not even gonna say number.
He told me and I forgot.

(01:02):
No, little, I'm sorry.
Little killed an eight-pointbuck.
So good job, little.
Uh, if you guys are intohunting, personally, I have
never been hunting, so I'm kindof a fish out of water.
But eight points is good, Ithink.
So congrats, little.
Um, and he I think is gonnarecord uh maybe a little mini

(01:23):
episode uh beyond the flannelgraph as he's on the road
traveling.
So be on the lookout for that.
And then we have one moreinterview episode that you guys,
it is crazy.
It's a young lady named Gwen.
She comes up with a churchSouthside that we have been
partnered with for a long time.

(01:43):
But Gwen, you guys do not wantto miss her story, her
interview.
She is so well spoken.
That will be posted next week.
So definitely be on the lookoutfor that.
And I mentioned this lastepisode, but if you guys haven't
already, you guys need to checkout our Advent study.
Uh, there will be a link in thebio of this episode that you
guys can buy the Advent studythere.

(02:05):
But like I said last episode,Zach Mabry wrote this, and it's
just a really cool thing to gothrough with your with yourself,
with your family.
Um, but yeah, you guys should gocheck that out.
Um, welcome to this week'sepisode of No Sanity Required.

SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of
Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters,a podcast about the Bible,
culture, and stories from aroundthe globe.

SPEAKER_03 (02:37):
We we've got we've got the honorable boss lady
here.
Boss Lady.
I would like like there's nodoubt that the Hicks marriage is
like every other marriage.
And so I'm shifting this to getpersonal.
It's just marriage retreatweekend as we're recording this.
Y'all have come in for themarriage retreat and y'all have

(02:58):
been coming for years, and um Idon't know if there's a career
field that's harder on amarriage.
What is the like in federal lawenforcement?
Remember my cousin in the SecretService, I think he said 90%.
It's 87% or something divorcerate.
What is what is it?
I mean, it's just astronomical.
I know we don't have a number toput on it, but Yeah, I d I

(03:20):
don't, I mean, I I in your inyour experience, in your career,
like lots lots of divorce.
Yeah.
Lots of failed marriages.
Yeah.
And we're not, I'm not sayingthat to shame anybody that's
listening who's been through adivorce.
The Lord knows that is not whatI'm saying.
I'm just saying, how how hardwas it being married to this
idiot?

(03:40):
Arkansas Neanderthal, goingaround throwing flashbangs and
shooting people and telling themabout Jesus.
And I mean, you're married to aguy that is not normal.
You know that, right?
Like that your your normalbecomes um you're like we we
just learn to live with ournormal, right?
And but God, you're married to aguy, God has put a calling on

(04:01):
his life, and that's why we'vegot him here sharing this, but
you're just at the house takehauling them girls to basketball
and making brownies and cookiesand cooking, having supper on
the table, just living life, butit's not normal.
How what how hard was it?
Or does it in your mind is itlike it's not really that hard?

(04:23):
It's just what God's the lifeGod's called us to, because also
you have a high view of thesovereignty of God.

SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
Yeah, um, I I don't know.
I mean, he was pretty normalwhen I married him, and he
became kind of weird as yearswent on.
He was actually kind of a nerdwhen we first switched around.

SPEAKER_03 (04:40):
Yeah, we learned that in the first episode, like
like nuclear submerged, like thedifficulties of giving.

SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
And he was gonna get out and be an engineer
somewhere, and we were gonnafind, you know, our favorite
state to live in and settledown, but that didn't happen.
So no, but I mean I grew up inthe military, so I grew up
moving every two or three years.
So I think that lifestyle wasalready kind of ingrained in me.
In fact, I get really restless.
We've been in we've been inVirginia for many years now, and

(05:09):
I've always got this itch to gosomewhere.
So next.
Yeah, yeah.
But we travel a lot, but no, Idon't think I I don't I don't
think our I wouldn't say ourmarriage has been we've had our
issues, obviously, but wehaven't had a rocky marriage.
The the times he's gone are nottough times or hard times, but
they're not they're not toughtimes, you know.

(05:29):
It's not um I guess it probablyall does boil down to the
sovereignty of God.
I'm not as eloquent speaking ashe is, and I'm not as well
versed in, well, I won't say I'mwell versed, I'm well read in
scripture.
I'm not well um, I don't havethe ability to come up with, you
know, verse and and and and uhwhat's the chapter and verse

(05:54):
just off the top of my head.
But um, but the sovereignty ofGod and him being Lord over my
life is you know uh veryingrained within me and and has
been since we, you know, sincebefore we met, which is what
probably attracted us to eachother to begin with.
Because he was kind of a nerdyguy, but I heard him teach a
Friday night Bible study duringa like a singles group that we

(06:17):
had at the church we went to inuh Norfolk, Virginia, and I was
like, wow, okay, yeah.
So it was it was a spiritualside of him that attracted me to
him first, honestly.
Um and uh clothes.
Yeah, oh I burned some of hisclothes after we got married.
He wore this one shirt over andover and over and over and over

(06:37):
again.

SPEAKER_03 (06:37):
I was like, oh we do that, that's what guys do.
You get some favorites andyou're like, I'm just gonna this
works, I'm gonna do this.

SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
He he for sure needed help in that department.
So I I filled that need, I havefilled that void.
But um, but no, like, you know,times when he had to go, you
know, every day, every husbandgets up and goes to, well, not
every, but you know, for themost part, the typical American
family, your husband gets up andgoes to work in the morning.
Well, you know, there's a chanceof car accident.
There's a there's a there's achance anything could happen,
you know.

(07:04):
So you can get yourself allworked up and worried over the
what-ifs.
Um but like you know, we're umGod's sovereignty, he's gonna
take you when he's ready to takeyou.
And then that's you know, andyou can't live your life in fear
of that happening at at anymoment.
You know, we had three littlekids to take care of.
I had to, you know, keep movingforward.
I I felt like I was kind of thewhat's the word, like the sieve

(07:28):
that um I would sift out all thebad stuff so the kids didn't
didn't weren't weren't scared.
So I can't be running aroundacting all scared.
Oh, I hope daddy's not gettingshot at right now while we're on
our way to T ball.
You know, I mean, we can't, youknow, I you can't let that let
those thoughts get into yourmind, you know, and just it's
just this a very so the Lord ismy peace.

(07:50):
He brings peace to my life, butmy peace and my joy don't come
directly from my husband, theycome from the Lord.
Yeah.
So while you know, we find joyin life together, um, you know,
in in his absence, when he'sgone, when he's doing those
dangerous things, I still havethe same peace and the same joy
because it's coming from theLord, it's not coming from, you

(08:10):
know.
So that made a huge difference.

SPEAKER_03 (08:13):
That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
That's so powerful.

SPEAKER_03 (08:16):
That's so strong.
That's so good.
Um, was there, can you remember,Brenda, a story where was there
like a a case he was working onwhen he was in, you know, when
he was doing like a gang stuff,or was there a bad guy he was
after, or was there a de a amoment in deployment that stands

(08:39):
out in your mind where you felta greater sense of not fear, but
like, oh man, this I need topray.
This I've got an uneasinessabout this, or was it always
just like every day was thesame, just praying for for God's
protection?
Is there something that standsout?
Was there one particular story?

SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
Um Well, I mean, I could think of several.
I mean, just overall, especiallyall the SWAT hits he would go on
really early in the morning.
Um, I would always just get upand, you know, say goodbye to
him, but I'd go right back tobed.
It's four o'clock in themorning.
I gotta I got a whole day'sworth of kids come up.
I can't, you know.
So um so I would definitelythink practically about life,
but I would think in my headthat he's just going off to the
office.
I wouldn't think about what hewas actually going to do.

(09:19):
And then as soon as he was done,he would send me just a real
quick text because after they'redone doing whatever it is
they're doing, they gotta goback and do all the like debrief
stuff, you know.
So he doesn't have time to callme and talk.
But just one simple text sayingit's done, and I knew he was
good and I would just go on withmy day, you know.
But I do remember um back to thestory he was telling you about
the the um gunshot through thelittle the hole in the place

(09:40):
where he well uh while he wasgone, our youngest child, he was
uh just starting t-ball.
So he had his first t ball game.
And I remember sitting at hisT-ball game, and I just remember
thinking, this is really odd,how I'm just sitting here, you
know, living the American life,cheering on at a T-ball game,
you know, a little boy with thejersey that's way too big and
the helmet that's all crooked onthe side of his head, you know,

(10:01):
and he's running and it'sfalling off, you know.
And I was just thinking, Iwonder what he's doing right
now, you know, like what thedifference in him being there
and me being here, and just itjust kind of hit me how, you
know, wow, he's he is not doingwhat I'm doing, you know, and
hopefully, you know, and I feltlike I should I I did pray for
him at that moment, but itwasn't like this big, I feel the

(10:22):
sudden urge, I need to pray, youknow.
But it did come to mind that,you know, and then later on we
were talking about when thatsituation happened, and we
realized he was I mean, we mighthave been off by an hour or two,
but we realized he was probablyin the midst of that situation
while I was sitting at our son'sfirst T boggin.
That's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 (10:42):
So Wow.
Man.
I've heard so many stories likethat of a a wife or a mom just
feeling or a dad for their kidjust feeling like an urge to
pray or intercede, and and youfind out that in that moment the
Lord was calling on you to Ifound out much later too.

SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
He did not tell him stories about what he was doing
until long after he got back.
I still don't know all of it.
I think you probably know moreof his stories than I do.

SPEAKER_03 (11:09):
I pull them out of him, but but if our listeners
now know Clay, first off, Clay'slike me.
He ain't never at a loss ofwords, you know.
Uh I you know, I if I sit downand plug, you know, I can just
hit record and start talking,and I don't know if it's a
blessing or a curse, but I canrun my mouth, you know.
And and so when me and Clay gettogether, it is not a 30-minute

(11:31):
fireside chat.
No, we put we put everybody tobed, don't we?
We shut that fire down.
I mean, every time he comes tothe fire, and there's 12 of us,
and then there's eight of us,and then there's four of us, and
then it's me and Clay.
And usually Adam Garner.
Adam Garner will be laying therewith us.

SPEAKER_02 (11:51):
He'll sacrifice sleep.

SPEAKER_03 (11:52):
Yeah, and I mean that last that the reason I
wanted to have this follow-upepisodes was after we recorded
last summer that evening, thatFriday night, we could record on
a Friday, then that Fridaynight, me and Adam and Clay set
at the fire till 3:30 in themorning.

SPEAKER_05 (12:08):
I think I received a text from Brody and said it was
like four in the morning.
He said, We got to do a part twowith Clay.
And I remember thinking when Imean he's leaving tomorrow
morning.

SPEAKER_03 (12:20):
Um where have you been?
What are you doing now?
What is it?
Let's let's uh let's wrap upwith what are you uh there's one
story, one funny story I want totell.
And uh again, thank you forsharing that because um that's
one of the most profound thingsI think that for me.
Um somebody Katie Hayes told methe other day she said uh she

(12:43):
said, I ask little, she's 'causeshe meets with little and she
little's sort of mentoring her.
She said, I ask little aboutafter thirty-one years of
marriage, where do you stillhave affection and is there
because little and I aren'tsuper we're not publicly
physical and we're not privatelythat f we're neither one super
touchy physical people.
And so I'm very intentional inthe morning to to have a long

(13:07):
hug and just because you don'tknow for me, I'm like this one
of these days I'm walking outthat door and I'm not coming
home.
Like there's a day when deathdoes you part.
Every couple.
I mean, how many people you knowin your life, how many couples
have you known that they bothdied together?
You know, it's very rare.
So I want the last thing toalways be um a a a positive

(13:31):
thing.
And so I'm talking to Katieabout that, and she said she had
asked Little about what's itlike when you've been married
this long?
And Little said, Well, we growin our friend.
I think in the these last yearswe've grown more in our
friendship.
You know, you you you grow inyour affection.

(13:52):
That's it's a different kind ofaffection.
And so the longer you aremarried and the longer you're
together, but then part of whatenables that is I I have I don't
have an unhealthy dependency onmy spouse.
Right.
My dependencies on Christ.
So for Brendan to say, yeah,when he's whether he's deployed
or he's home, what like my mysource of joy and peace is the

(14:15):
Lord.

SPEAKER_05 (14:16):
Yeah.
It's not this person.
I also do love the point thatyou made of like, but together
we are able to experience joyand peace, but he's not the
source of it.
I love that.

SPEAKER_03 (14:26):
Goes back to that saying, um, if you're with the
person that God's called you toto you're committed before the
Lord to this person, your joywill be doubled and your sorrow
will be cut the load of yoursorrow will be cut in half
because you bear it together,yeah, or you experience it
together.

SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
So I would add too that like um the Bible instructs
us on how to be married to oneanother, how to love one
another, how to treat oneanother.
And if a husband is loving hiswife well, it makes it a lot
easier for her to handlesomething like a deployment or a
law enforcement, you know, umsituation.

(15:02):
Uh because it it fosters morerespect and more love and more
um desire to see that manfulfill his own dreams and not
feel it's it's not there's not aselfishness there.
So he's leading withoutselfishness, I'm following
without selfishness.
And together we're putting oneanother's needs before our own.
And there's there's much moreharmony in something like that

(15:25):
than than if each of us isfighting for, well, I want to do
this, well, I want to do this,you know, because that's where
the anger seeps in and the lackof unity starts to develop, and
that would make a deployment awhole lot harder.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That's good.
I will also say that we're notspecial.
There are there are people whogo out and do this every day.
I only dealt with one employeeuh deployment.

(15:46):
There are some wives who've gonethrough five, six, seven of
them, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (15:49):
Yeah, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
And had the had their children while their
husbands were deployed, andthere are thousands of people
out there who said goodbye totheir their husband this morning
and sent him off into some sortof law enforcement or some sort
of um, you know, dangerous typejob.
So we're just we're just one ina million.
There's nothing super specialabout us.
Um, you know, we're just tryingto follow you know, the be

(16:11):
obedient to the Lord and followwhatever his his path develops
for us.
And we never know.
I could change this regularly.
But the important thing is tojust be obedient, be ready to,
you know, go where you'resupposed to go, be sent where
you're supposed to be sent, andto do it together as a team.
Because he's put us together andwe're not we're not we're not
changing that.

(16:33):
I ain't going nowhere either.

SPEAKER_03 (16:36):
So what what are you doing now?
You're you're retired from theFBI, and but you're not you're
not the grass ain't growingunderneath them shoes.

SPEAKER_02 (16:49):
No, no, not at all.
So first one thing I I will pushback on one thing Brenda said,
like uh we're not special, butshe is.
So uh I I uh like many men, Imarried up for sure.
And uh um I I will tell you thatI have lived this whole life

(17:09):
thus far and not had to worryabout what the Bible talks about
as a contentious woman, as allthese different things.
But if you know Brenda, she isnot a shrinking violet, right?
She's not she's not like youknow, standing in the shadows
and weak and all that kind ofstuff.
I mean she is, she's anincredibly strong woman, yeah,

(17:32):
but but has displayed for othersaround her as well as our
daughters and our son what itlooks like for biblical marriage
to be, right?
Like the the the the whole lieof of those who would come
against um complementarianism asa whole is that you know

(17:57):
following in marriage somehowmakes you weak, right?
And and my response is uhobviously, well have you known
any SEAL team six guys or Deltaguys or whatever?
Well, yeah, were they followingsomebody?
Yeah.
Do you want to call them weak?

(18:18):
Because I don't plan to, yeah,right?
Everybody follows somebody, andand this is this is God's design
in marriage, and but I just wantto call her out publicly and say
that from my vantage point, shedid it right.

SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
It can be done, which means it can be done
right.
Yeah, it can.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
Yeah.
So I mean, to answer yourquestion, what am I doing now?
So I work for I work for acompany uh that a a buddy of
mine through this deploymentthat we talked about, I kept in
touch with him over the years.
And eventually when it came timefor my retirement through a
whole series of things, he waslike, hey man, come work for
this company I'm working,working for.
And uh, so it's a it's a companycalled Zignal Labs, and it's

(19:02):
essentially turning turning opensource intelligence into um you
know, into operational use casesof various, various kinds.
And so I work with theintelligence community, um,
military broadly, but but alsospecial operations community,
um, federal, you know, federalcivilian agencies, and then some
really large-scale commercialagencies as well.

(19:24):
Um, and it's it's kept me keptme moving for sure.

SPEAKER_03 (19:27):
Yeah, because we're I mean, you're jet lagged right
now.
I mean, how long have you beenstateside?
Two days?

SPEAKER_02 (19:34):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I mean, over thelast six weeks, it's been London
for a week, Germany for a week,back to London uh all in one
trip, and then I was home for afew days, and Brenda went with
me to those the those two trips.
Um, and then I went to umthrough our partnership with uh
various uh various uh believersin Nigeria.

(19:56):
I was in Nigeria for a week umministering uh with two other
dudes, two other HRT guys, umministering to um those have
been affected by the um theBukharam uh incited uh Falani
Muslim attacks.
Um so we've been there a numberof times now, and this was just

(20:16):
the most recent trip.
So we were out in the bush withthem.
Yeah, but but anyway, so uh wasyou know, was in Nigeria and
then um home uh a week and thenI was in uh Sea Island, Georgia,
and we were at a we were at aconference, kind of a CIA
focused uh conference downthere, and then uh here for a

(20:38):
couple days, and then I'll be inHawaii next week.

SPEAKER_03 (20:41):
So doing And that's work, or is that you're gonna
surf?
That's no, that's work.
I wish Coconuts and surfing.

SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
Yeah, I wish I wish I could surf.
No, we'll we'll probably be invarious uh military bases the
whole time and various things.

SPEAKER_03 (20:53):
So um I would like for you to uh tell there's one
story from when you were doinggang stuff, I think.
I mentioned it to you on thebreak.
Well, you tell that story, it'ssuch a good story, man.
It's so great.
JP's never heard it.

SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
So again, I forget what year it was, but it was
probably in the in the 2011, 12time frame, somewhere in there.
And uh so Washington FieldOffice uh had a a bank robbery
squad.
Um, and they worked all kinds ofdifferent bank robberies in and
around DC and and all that.

(21:30):
And so they hit us up, us beingthe SWAT team, so I was one of
the team leaders at the time,and uh hit us up and basically
said, Hey, these guys, this crewthat we're into have uh robbed a
number of armored cars.
They've done armored car hits.
And so your armored car robbersare generally, not always the

(21:51):
case, but generally more violentuh because you're going up
against guys with guns, youknow, the security guards carry
weapons, and uh, of course it'san armored vehicle, and you
know, there's there's all kindsof security protocols that go
with that.
So, anyway, um they had hit anumber of armored cars and they
had uh killed at least one guy,if I remember right, it might

(22:13):
have even been a couple of guys.
And so through their very longinvestigation, they had they had
generally figured out who theythought the crew was, and they
had gotten a uh uh source inwith them.
And so the source um essentiallywas providing information, and

(22:33):
um so in instead of waitinguntil they hit whatever the next
thing was, right?
Just doing a constantsurveillance, um, they uh the
the guys basically called uhcalled Wells Fargo, uh, or
Brinks, I'm sorry, Brinks, andum and said, Hey, or it might
have been Wells Fargo, I forgetwhich one it was, it doesn't

(22:55):
matter.
But they called one of thearmored car companies and said,
Hey, can we have an armored car?
And can we have some uniforms?
And uh so they told them why.
And uh and they were like, Yeah,sure, absolutely.
And um, so we basically let itleak through the source that
this car was gonna have whole, Iforget what the number was, but

(23:17):
it was a whole lot of money.
It was like$1.1 million orsomething like that.
You know, they were gonna carrycollect from a bunch of
different places.
And so um, so these guys bit anduh we watched them on, we had
air surveillance on each oftheir locations, and we watched
them eventually pick each otherup in vehicles and meet up.
We told them basically where thevehicle was gonna be at one

(23:41):
point in the day.
And so they they um um wewatched them pull off on the
side of the road in DC, or oneof the one of the streets in DC
and wait.
And uh our guys came through andthey were driving the the
vehicle and they had they had acouple guys up front, and I
think one or two guys in theback of the armor car.

(24:02):
And uh we watched them.
They pulled up to a light andand uh the guys got out, you
know, pulled out behind them.
And uh we at the time, wemeaning the rest of the SWAT
team or the SWAT team, we hadessentially chosen time and
place where this hit was goingto happen.
And we had chosen a narrow alleywith brick walls, uh, because

(24:25):
this was this was highlikelihood to turn into a
firefight.
Um, and so we wanted it to be assafe as it could possibly be
with respect to the public.
Um, and so we had chosen an airuh an alleyway that was brick
wall all the way up and down, nowindows.
Um, and there was some hidingplaces that we could take our

(24:47):
armored vehicles and cut off oneside.
So if there was a firefight,they'd be up against the
backdrop of armored vehicles.
And then we had a couple otherarmored suburbans, we were gonna
pull in behind them when theywent in the alleyway.
Uh, and they were just gonna bestuck in this alleyway, right?
And so no matter what they did,we would, of course, you know,
have superior positioning andyou know, all that kind of

(25:08):
stuff.
Uh, but if they did startshooting, it was gonna be as
safe as possible for the public.
And so, as you can imagine,everybody and their brother in
in FBI management was superconcerned about this.
Um, and so we had air up, uh,you know, monitoring the whole
thing, and we're hearing it onthe radio, and I I had a team

(25:32):
that I was in charge of on oneside of the alleyway, and then
my buddies had another team onthe other side of the alleyway.
And um we're listening to theradio, the air, air calling down
and saying, all right, they'remaking the left turn here,
they're making the right turnthere, you know, all that stuff.
And honestly, these things likethe FBI and other law
enforcement, it's not just theFBI, lots of other law

(25:54):
enforcement organizations.
You, you know, you go into allthis planning and you're there's
always a doubt that it'sactually gonna happen, you know.
But as we hear them making theturn calls, we're like, this
might actually happen.
Wait, they're coming down thisthis okay, okay, you know, and
then get your mind right.

(26:14):
This may happen.
And so we're kind of ducked downon the on the building and we
hear the armor car drive inbecause you can hear the bill
diesel motor.
And he pulls in the alleywayexactly where he was supposed to
go.
And uh um we've got a we've gota down link so we can see the
air, uh, air view over the top,and we're watching.

(26:35):
And they were supposed to pullin the in the alleyway, but they
didn't last second.
And and this is the thing, allthe law enforcement dudes and
military guys will know yourbest laid plans, like the bad
guys screw it up somehow.
They do something they're notsupposed to do, right?
Uh which is why you you build incontingencies, right?
You build in, all right, if theydo this, then we're gonna do

(26:57):
this, and if, you know,whatever.
And so we had we had built in,like we had contingency upon
contingency upon contingencybuilt into this thing.
And so uh they pulled, insteadof pulling into the alleyway,
they just kind of pulled besidethe alleyway and parked on the
street.
And so two dudes roll outhandguns, one of them's got a

(27:17):
big, dirty, hairy wheel gun, youknow.
I mean, it's like a hand cannon.

SPEAKER_03 (27:22):
What in the wheel?

SPEAKER_02 (27:23):
And uh the other guy runs out with a Glock of some
sort, I forget whether it wasnine mil or 40 or 45 or
whatever.
And uh they're they run down thealleyway because they were
supposed to the their guy wassupposed to be in the truck and
was going to leave the truckdoor open for them to be able to
get into the truck.
Well, what they didn't know wasthat on one side was a DHL

(27:46):
office, like the shippingcompany, but on the other side
was the Secret Service uhbuilding that was just sort of a
building that, you know, nobodydidn't have any signs on it,
didn't have anything.
And we had worked with them andthey're like, oh yeah, heck
yeah, use it.
And they're like, Can we watch?
Like, no, you can't watch.
You know, and uh so anyway, uhso we own we own the block.

(28:10):
So basically these two dudesroll out, they run down the
alleyway, and the driver was inget getting out, he was coming
out with an AK.
And uh so two guys with handgunsrun down the alleyway, and the
guys on the opposite side, wewere my side, my team was the
the the coverage, we were thegun guys, and the side over

(28:32):
there, they were the bangmonkeys, right?
So they they were gonna chuckflashbangs, just a number of
them, into the alleyway todisorient.
And if you don't know whatflashbang is, flashbangs just
it's a it's a a device thatlooks like a grenade, and
sometimes you'll hear themcalled stun grenades or
flashbang grenades or whatever,but really they're they're not a

(28:54):
grenade like you think of anexplosive grenade.
They do explode, but they don'tthey don't blow up and send frag
and stuff everywhere.
Um, so basically what it is isjust a a charge of like flash
powder and some other thingsthat's on a fuse and it
functions like a grenade.
It's got a spoon and a pen andyou know the whole thing.
And you throw it, and then aparticular time later, like a
second and a half later, itblows, it it blows up.

(29:17):
Well, it blows up, it goes off,I should say.
It's just mostly just noise, butit is loud.
Yeah, it it just it'll it'llring your bell and mess you up,
and then it's super bright.
So it kind of, if you're lookingat it, it takes your vision away
and and it just disorients you,right?
And all it's meant to do is todistract, to give us time to do

(29:40):
whatever it is we're gonna do,right?
So anyway, they chuck a bunch ofbangs, and as it's falling, and
they're not even they they knowthey're in the alleyway, but
they they're not looking overthe edge, looking at them to see
them, you know.
So they don't, they're notaiming at anything, they're just
throwing them over the edge.
And one of them, as the guy, asthe main guy's running.
And so by the way, the guy, theguy that's carrying the wheel

(30:03):
gun had killed an armored carguy, and that was his gun.
That he was coming, it was thearmored car guy's previous, uh,
murder, previously murdered guy.
He's running down.
And but the main guy who hadjust gotten out of prison for
murder, I think he had been inprison for like 46 years or
something.
I mean, he was an older, alittle bit older guy, and he had

(30:25):
like murdered somebody in hislate teens or something like
that.
He was just, he was just a meanguy, you know.
But as he's running down thealleyway, one of these
flashbangs drops and it's on atimer, right?
And so it might go off in theair if it's falling long enough
or whatever, but it goes offliterally right beside his head.

(30:48):
You can see, you can see himrunning down the alleyway, and
then you can't really see theflashbang, you know, from the
air, but you can see him rundown the alleyway and then just
go, oh, and just kind of getknocked sideways and get
disoriented.
Well, right after the flashbangsgo off, we come over the top,
right?
FBI hands up, hands up, and uh,and the guy, the the guy

(31:12):
carrying the big dirty hairywheel gun swings around and
looks right at me.
And but when he did it, and thissaved his life, when he did it,
he tucked the handgun behind hisback.
And so in that split second, youhad to determine is this is this
a a deadly force scenario ornot, right?

(31:34):
And so the FBI has a particulardefinition of deadly force, a
legal definition they've usedfor a long, long time.
And and so in the moment, right,I could see that it was it was
very like, and this is for thosewho are not law enforcement or
military, this is literally thespeed at which you have to make
decisions.
And and what I'm talking abouthere is nothing special.

(31:56):
Every law enforcement guyeverywhere has had to make some
kind of similar decision inmoments like this.
This is not this is not unique,this is highly normal.
Um and so um, you know, I Ilooked at him, decided he he
didn't look like he waspresenting the weapon.

(32:19):
He backed up against the wall.
We're giving him commands, ofcourse.
He backed up against the wall,pinched the weapon but between
his backside and the wall, andthen brought both hands up
because we were telling him, youknow, get your hands up.
Now we knew the weapon wasthere, obviously, and so we're
giving him more commands.
And eventually he backed, he gotoff the wall, got on his face,
and the weapon falls, and andthat was that was that.

(32:40):
The guy with the AK in the carwas a little slower getting out
just because he had to throw itin park, grab the AK, work with
the door, get out, whatever.
And one of the contingencies wehad was if they stopped out on
the road, we had a team of twovehicles that were going to come
in, and they came in, pinned thevehicle up against the curb and
kind of created a wedge againsthim, sort of a V formation

(33:03):
against him, uh, where thebackdrop was a brick wall,
right?
So it was, it was good, it was agood situation.
But at that time, we also hadtwo suburbans we used for
executive protection type stufffor the directory and the
attorney general.
And they slid into the other endof the alleyway.
So we had two big uh MRAPs atthe time, big military vehicles

(33:24):
that we had that were that wereum um uh what it call it bullet
resistant.
Nothing's fully bulletbulletproof, but anyway, armored
vehicles pull in on one end,these vehicles pull in on the
other, and they're they're theguys in the alleyway are
trapped.
The guys out on the street, orthe guy is is boxed in by these
two vehicles, they're out and onhim fast.

(33:46):
Um, and uh he had he he didn'teven he didn't get the AK fully
out of the vehicle, so he justdropped it, and that was that.
Um But yeah, so so uh geniusboss man decides he's gonna be
interviewed by the media uh afew days later from jail, a week
later, well, whatever it was, Iforget exactly the time.

(34:06):
And this actually shows up inthe paper or in in online.
He's like, Man, I was just I wasjust we were just walking
through the alleyway andsomebody started dropping bombs
on our head.
Like, well, yeah, they did.
Yeah, we did.

(34:27):
Uh, but you definitely broughtthat on yourself by you know the
uh weapons that you were runningwith and the armor car you were
about to rob and potentiallymurder somebody for.
So yeah.
Yeah, it was uh, but it it wasit's hilarious.
I mean, there is a whole lot,you know, all these stories we
talk about, there's a whole lotof humor that falls into it
because you just see humanbehavior, you know.

(34:47):
I mean, I can't tell you howmany times we've done something
like this.
Used to be when we were talkingabout the kids.
I don't if anybody's out thereand you're gonna get you're
gonna get hit by lawenforcement, come to the door
with some clothes on, please.
I beg you, please, right?
I can't tell you how many dudeswe've hit houses on and they
come to the they come to thedoor with not a stitch, not a

(35:07):
stitch.

SPEAKER_03 (35:08):
Goodness.
And you're like, what are youdoing?

SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
Throw some drawers on, man.
Like, please, please, yeah.
I mean, it's it's six in themorning, but really, you know.
And so it got so bad that Iwould tell we would tell
stories, or I'd tell stories tothe kids as they're growing up.
And it eventually got to be, youknow, they're like, hey, daddy,
did you did you go out earlythis morning?
Like, yeah, yep, I did.
Did you get the bad guy?

(35:32):
That was always the firstquestion.
Yep, yep, we got him.
And they were like, was henaked?
And unfortunately, a largepercentage of the time I had to
say yes.

SPEAKER_03 (35:42):
Yes.
So did I tell you the storyabout the streaker in the got
into the North Campus compoundhere?

SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
I knew, I knew it happened, but I don't think that
was crazy.

SPEAKER_03 (35:52):
But what was so funny is uh so everybody had
left.
One guy was driving out and sawthis guy walking out here on
George Walker Road, and he's atweaker, you know.
And uh I saw somebody walking,and there's a church adjacent to
North Campus, and he had waswalking back towards that
church, which that church hadbeen broken into a couple times.

(36:14):
But I ended up coming over herebecause we had a group here,
this building that we're inright here, they were doing
their share groups in here.
So they just locked the door.
The guy was standing on the onthe stump back here, you know,
screaming and acting crazy.
But I came over and I called, Icalled the sheriff's office.
I didn't call 911, I just calledthe dispatch number because they
had already called 911.

(36:35):
A deputy had come, circled everybuilding, they couldn't find the
guy.
I don't know where he was, hemight have been in this
cornfield.
Yeah.
But as soon as the deputiesleft, he comes out, buck naked,
standing right out here,screaming, whatever.
And we got students hadthankfully just come in this
building.
But anyway, when I got overhere, he had thrown a towel, he
had a towel, he had put a towelaround himself.

(36:56):
He had crawled under the fencenaked and then had a towel, I
think, that he had gotten out ofthe church.
I think he had broken thatchurch, and he's got the towel
wrapped up.
So I pull in and I'm like, whatare you doing, man?
And he's holding the towel withone hand, he sticks his hand out
to shake my hand.
And I said, No uh, no, man,we're not gonna shake hands.
I was like, don't, don't comeany closer to me right now, you

(37:18):
know.
And but anyway, he ends up.
I f I get the deputies to comeback because they're they're
confused.
They're like, no, we already didthis call.
We already responded to thiscall.
We checked the bill, and I'mlike, No, no, no, the guy, we
have the guy, he I'm looking athim.

SPEAKER_05 (37:30):
He just tried to shake my hand.

SPEAKER_03 (37:31):
He just tried to shake my hand.
So they come back and uh and hegets out of the, you know, they
roll in, we open the gate, andhe gets around behind the car
and scorch across the road, youknow, like he's gone.
Yep.
So he gets out, runs across theroad holding his towel, runs
through the meeting.
So we're out at the gate, andI'm talking these two, uh, it

(37:53):
was a Cherokee County deputy andan Andrews Town cop, and he goes
across the four lane holding histowel.
Well, they they they wheelaround, they go code, and they
fly over there to the and heruns into that hotel.
First, he goes in the woodsbehind it, they're looking or
true, and so I jump on top of mytruck right here at the gate

(38:14):
with my I keep a set ofbinoculars in my truck, and I'm
on, I'm watching the whole thingfrom over here.
And then Spencer pulls in.
I I called Spencer Davis.
I was like, who who do I whodefinitely wants to be here for
this?
I called Spencer, I said, Hey,there's a streaker, naked dude
running around over here atNorth Campus.
He just ran across the fourlane.
And Spencer said, Thank you somuch for calling me.
I'm on my way.

(38:35):
So he pulls in.
I had a second set ofbinoculars.
We're on top of the truckwatching all of this unfold
across the road over there.
And the guy ends up in thelobby.
Anyway, they have to fight thisguy in his town.
They're the naked guy in hislobby.
And they're rolling out and puthim in the car.
So they come back over.
One one of them hauls him tojail, and the other one comes

(38:57):
over here to take a statementfrom us.
And and I was like, hey man,just keep your distance.
I saw you rolling around thatnaked guy.
Keep your distance.
He didn't think it was funny.
He's like, Man, I don't get paidenough to do this.

SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
I got all right, I got I got two stories.
I went on a I went on a missionwith uh with SEAL team while I
was in that deployment.
We go out and it was a it was anwhat they call an offset infill,
right?
So you're you're maybe fourmiles off the off the target,
and you it's in the middle ofthe night, right?
We're landing at, I don't know,one or two o'clock in the
morning, whatever time it was,and uh we're on nods, right?

(39:33):
And we're and we're walking inthe dark.
So helos let us down, helos flyoff, you wait for a little
while, make sure nothinghappens, and then you begin your
movement.
And so we're sneaking through,right?
Because there's a whole bunch ofplaces we got to sneak through
to get to the target.
Um, and the guy was a foreignfighter uh uh facilitator, and
he was bringing in people fromall kinds of different places.

(39:57):
So anyway, uh we're walkingthrough, and we had planned the
or they had planned the mission.
Um but in the meantime, we weregonna walk through these wheat
fields, and in the meantime, thefarmers had flooded the wheat
fields.
And so the the uh aerial imagerythey had from a couple days ago
wasn't even good anymore becausethese wheat fields were were

(40:19):
flooded.
And so we hid these wheatfields, and it's literally up to
your mid-thigh in mud and muckand garbage.
And so what was supposed to takeus, you know, I don't know,
maybe an hour to get there, hourand a half, something like that.
Like it it took us like threehours, and we are just getting

(40:45):
our butts whooped by this.
And I was super happy becauseI'm like 38 years old and I'm
watching like you know,23-year-old seals fall out and
fall on their face in the mud,and everybody ended up face down
in the mud at some point, right?
At some point, and so when wegot to the target, I was like,
sweet, I made it, you know.

(41:06):
Yeah, um, and uh, yeah, thatthat right there is a win.
Uh, but we get done with that,with that hit, and uh, we get
picked up by the Helos, and nowwe made a lot of noise and all
this other stuff, you know, andat the at the end of it, we get
done and um flying back and weland in Kandahar, and uh we get

(41:30):
a call.
I don't know, it's probably acouple hours later.
We get a call and they're like,hey, what happened out there?
So we're like, you know, so theguys talked to them, you know,
because they were calling us theactual SEAL task unit that I
went with.
And they're like, what are youtalking about?
And they're like, there is anunexploded RPG embedded in the

(41:53):
bottom of the he of your HELO.
It was a HELO I was on.
What?
And so Yeah, you haven't told methat one.
I haven't, I'm sorry.
Uh and so so we we were like,seriously, and like, yeah, yeah,
we were doing, you know, postpost-mission aircraft

(42:13):
inspections and doing somemaintenance and whatever, and
like one of the dudes found it.
There's a hole in the bottom,you know.
And uh, but back to thesovereignty of God, right?
For whatever reason, that RPGgot shot and and God just said
no.
Right?
Wow, and and that's crazy.
You know, is it is it so that wecan talk about his glory and his

(42:35):
sovereignty?
Maybe, you know, I don't know.
He he has he has purposes andthings that we don't we don't
see and we don't know.
Um, but you know, eventuallythat turned into the the ODA
team leader after they heardabout it, you know, basically
thinking I was their I was theirreligious good luck charm.
Yeah, you know, I'm like man, Idon't think it works that way.

(42:57):
Uh but um He thought it did.
Yeah, he did.
He did.
But it allowed for otherconversations, so you know, good
enough.
Um but uh but you were talkingabout so you were talking about
the the story of the of the uhnaked dude running around here.
So we were gonna hit a therewere a whole series of reasons

(43:18):
why why SWAT was gonna be calledin to hit this hit this
particular uh uh thing.
Um and it was a child sexualassault material production case
where the guy was actuallymaking videos abusing children.
And um so we go hit the placeand the guy's about five three

(43:45):
tall and five three wide, right?
And he just like the guy thatbreached the door that was on on
my team, so I was I was a seniorteam leader at the time, the guy
breaching, we actually hisnickname was Xerxes uh because
from the movie 300, he's builtjust like him, bald head, the
whole thing, yeah, like a sixsix, wingspan for days, and like

(44:08):
you know, negative body fatpercentage kind of thing.
Just absolute stud of a guy.
And um, so he, you know,splinters this dude's door, and
he comes to the door and justfalls flat down on his face in
fear.
And he's he's big, he's big guy.

(44:29):
Uh and so they finally get himout and he doesn't have a stitch
of clothing on.
Oh no, head to toe.
Head to toe.
And so I see him where I'm outin the front kind of
coordinating efforts.
Uh, and that's the that youknow, when become a team leader,
you get to do all the work andget to have none of the fun.
That's unfortunately theproblem.

(44:50):
But I see him on the porch, andfrom the side, I can see certain
characteristics, and I'm like,oh, that's that's a woman.
And I'm like, all right, we needto get a blanket on her.
And then then he gets him hookedup and turns him around.
I'm like, nope, that's a dude.
That's a dude.
And so I'm like, all right, Idon't care anymore.

(45:11):
Bring him out.
Bring him out.
Come on.
Weirdo.
Because it's this guy, right?
I don't care a bit.
Bring him out.
So I hand him off to uh to uh sothe guys hand him off to me.
Dude's buck naked, that's goodso much as a sock.
Oh wow, and uh so I I take himbecause we were a little

(45:31):
short-handed that day, so thoseguys went back in.
I take him and I turn him overto the negotiators and FBI
agent, she's really good at whatshe did.
She was F she was a negotiator,female, and I said, Hey, can you
watch him?
I need to go back in and andhandle some of this stuff.
And uh she's like, he doesn't,teeth gritted, he doesn't have

(45:56):
any clothes on.
I'm like, I see that.
I know that.
And uh and I'm like, Oh, you gothe ain't going anywhere, right?
And if he does, just kneecap himand he'll fall and it'll be
fine.
And uh, and she's like, hedoesn't have any clothes on,
like you said that already.
You're an FBI agent, get overit.
It's okay, right?
And uh, so anyway, I get a callabout that time from my

(46:18):
assistant team leader, and hesays, uh, he's like, you have
got to come in here.
I'm like, what?
He's like, I'm not gonna tellyou, just come in.
So he meets me at the front doorand directs me up these little
short stairs to a little room.
And I'm like, what?
And he says, I'm not gonna tellyou, just go up.
And so I'm thinking there's someprank, there's something, you

(46:40):
know, but but you know, this guywas, I mean, he he was all about
the fun, but he also was superserious, very capable guy.
So he's not gonna do stupidstuff in the middle of
operation.
So anyway, uh I I walk up thesestairs and I walk into this room
that's I don't know, maybe 10 by10, something like that.
And there is a whole series ofshrines to demons and to Satan.

(47:06):
And on one of the main ones uhis a is an actual goat skull
that's got dried blood on it andvarious animal parts and all
kinds of different things.
And I look along the wall, andthere's all these little
potion-looking things and youknow, names of demons, no idea
where the names came from, butyou know, whatever.

(47:27):
They had names, and all thesedifferent shrines.
And I come back down and he'slike, I know, right?
And uh I'm like, what are whereare we?
And uh so we end up, you know,we finished clearing the house,
and everywhere we looked,there's books and and pictures
and everything about wizardryand warlock, and you know, and

(47:50):
I'm not talking like HarryPotter stuff.
I mean, it's like true believerbooks, you know, and and various
different things andimplementations of of whatever
little procedures and you know,spells and incantations that
these people do.
And I walk through the kitcheninto the main uh living area and
something hits my helmet andjust goes clink.

(48:11):
And I kind of walk through and Iturn around and look.
And over the doorway, you know,people put uh, you know, a
picture or or saying, you know,God bless this house or, you
know, the Holloway family liveshere, whatever, right?
Little decoration type things.
Nope, he had a giant pentagram,right?
It was a little piece that washanging down and it clipped my
clipped my helmet as I was goingthrough.

(48:32):
And I'm looking at everybody,I'm like, where are we?
Like, did we just step intobizarro world?
Like, what happened?
And um right about that time Iget a call.
I had sent some guys out to goclear uh an outbuilding, a
structure.
And um, I get a call from one ofthose guys, and he's like, Hey,
so my call sign was Romeo One atthe time.

(48:52):
He's like, Romeo one, uh we justfound a coffin.

SPEAKER_05 (48:57):
Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 (48:59):
I said, A say again?
And he said, Yep, a coffin.
And he's like, There's wirescoming out of it.
And he was a former uh MarineEOD guy.
And I said, like wires you'd beconcerned about?
Like what do we I I didn't evenknow the right question to ask,
you know, like what are wetalking about?

(49:19):
And he's like, I don't know,man.
And uh so I said, Well, use yourdiscretion.
You're you're the you're theexpert on this stuff, so use
your discretion and you know,clear it if you can.
And if not, we'll we'll we'llpull back and we'll we'll worry
about other things.
So I mean the guy had no noexplosives background and is

(49:40):
yeah, we knew nothing aboutthat.
So we you know, low probabilityanything anything of that nature
was gonna be involved.
So anyway, um I thought in thatmoment we were gonna find a dead
kid.
That's what I thought.
Um and we had brought the guyback in the house at the time,
and one of the guys, one of theother guys turned to him and

(50:03):
said, Do you have a coffin inyour in that outbuilding?
And he's like, Oh, yeah.
And he's like, Why?
And he said, Well, me and myfriend, we we we built it and we
like to lay in it and listen tomusic.
Without skipping a beat.

(50:24):
So all if there's lawenforcement.
If they're right, oh yeah, yeah,yeah.
Well, we threw a blanket onbecause we didn't want to see
that all out yes.
And uh, but but uh withoutskipping a beat, like all the
law enforcement military dudeswill appreciate this.
Like without skipping a beat,this other guy that was with us,
he just goes, Oh yeah,absolutely.
I do the same thing every Fridaynight.

(50:45):
I get it, I get it, man.
You know, and uh so they open itup, and what was hilarious, I I
asked him about it later, theysaid, as they're about to open
this thing, that every horrormovie that they have ever seen
with zombies and vampires andwhatever else ran through their
mind, like, what are we about toyou know?

(51:05):
But he had made and it was likea Dracula coffin, right?
Wide at the top, narrow at thebottom, occultic symbols all
over it and everything, purplelining, and those were speakers.
That wiring was speakers.
That that they oh my gosh.
And so we so he was a full-blownSatanist, right?
And uh, and we when we left, weall joked like we needed to find

(51:28):
the near none of us wereCatholic, and and uh, but we we
joked we needed to find thenearest holy water and take a
bath in it, you know, just justfor safe key, just for good
measure.
But um, but I talked to my daduh uh I was a week or so later,
I was telling him about it, anduh he retired 34 years in in

(51:49):
state police and Arkansas StatePolice and had worked every kind
of case you could possibly work,serial killers, child, you know,
assaults, about everything,literally everything.
And um he told me, he said, hesaid, you know, he's like,
there's no way to know.
He said, but it's quite possiblethat you guys, you guys, you

(52:09):
know, accidentally, but you youstepped in on the progression of
a guy that was moving towardsbeing a serial killer because he
because a lot of the uh you knowcharacteristics start out with
sexual perversions, uh crueltyto animals, uh, you know,

(52:30):
occultic practices and and andobsessions with the cult and
various different things.
And then he, of course, hadalready gone to, you know, doing
horrible things to children.
And so uh Yeah.
Yeah, so that was that was I'vebeen in way nastier places and
way nastier situations and othersituations of way more violent

(52:53):
and all that kind of stuff.
But that was by far the weirdestone that I ever had.
That one was just like what justhappened?

SPEAKER_05 (53:02):
Yeah, you know, man crazy.

SPEAKER_03 (53:05):
Oh okay.
There's well, there's one storythat I want both y'all's
perspective on.
Um, that I have I have retoldthis story multiple times, and
I've got Clay to tell it to me adozen times just to make sure
I'm I'm keeping the detailsright.
But y'all were it was for one ofyour dogs, was it for Allison?

(53:26):
Is it a travel basketball thingor y'all in Atlanta?
This is non-FBI.
This is just a Hicks familytrip.
Just a Hicks family trip stayingat the hotel in Atlanta, right?

SPEAKER_00 (53:37):
Yeah, this trip was actually for Lindsay, our oldest
daughters.

SPEAKER_03 (53:39):
Okay, for Lindsay.

SPEAKER_00 (53:40):
Um, travel basketball.
But yes, Allison did do some aswell.
Um we that was a normal thingfor us to spend a weekend going
softball tournaments, basketballtournaments, whatever it might
be.
But this one was downtownAtlanta, a high-rise hotel, like
over 15 floors at least, Ithink, right?
Peach.
Yeah, yeah.
And there were a lot of crazythings that happened on that

(54:01):
trip, you know, that um beforethis happened.
So we were already kind of onedge.
But um uh typically when we goto these tournaments, all the
parents get together in thelobby and just kind of hang out
in the evening, and the kidswill go do whatever they do, and
you know, and um we usually endup leaving kind of early and
going up to our room.
For some reason, this timeeverybody else left early, the

(54:24):
coaches and the other parentsand stuff.
So Clay and I were in this lobbyarea, which was like one level
up from the main lobby.
It was kind of like a breakfastroom.
We're just sitting in there byourselves, which absolutely
never happens.
Um, and our kids were alreadyupstairs, like on the 15th, we
were already, we were on the topfloor, the kids were already up
there getting ready for bed.
Lindsay had a really earlymorning game.
And so we're just sitting theretalking.

(54:44):
We're like, Yeah, probably Ibetter head upstairs.
And all of a sudden, this guycomes busting through the door
of the stairwell, and he'sacting really frantic.
Young kid, he's acting reallyfrantic, and he's saying, Help
me, help me, help me.
Uh, I think I just killedsomeone, I think I just killed
someone, and he's got bloodrunning all over all down.
He's just wearing jeans,shirtless, ball cap, and there's

(55:05):
blood all over him, and he'sjust in this panic.

SPEAKER_02 (55:08):
When she says blood, like dump a bucket of blood on
somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 (55:12):
And so you don't know if it's his blood or
someone else.

SPEAKER_03 (55:15):
He's just got blood all over.

SPEAKER_00 (55:16):
Well, and my first thought was it was a prank.
Like we're in the hotel, we'rewith a bunch of teenagers, he's
gonna be able to get it.
But we didn't know the kid, wehad never seen him before.
And as he came running towardsus, you could tell he was just
in an absolute panic.
So Clay goes into lawenforcement mode, you know, of
course, and he tries to stop himand talk to him a little bit.

(55:36):
And we realized we gotta call911.
We got to take care, we know wegot to do something about this.
So he's trying to subdue theguy, and I'm going into the
lobby to tell the desk people tocall 911.
And they had said somebody up onthe 14th floor had already
called 911 because the person hehad stabbed had left the room
and walked around um knocking ondoors to try to get help.

(55:58):
So somebody who opened theirdoor to this guy standing there,
um uh they had already called,you know.

SPEAKER_02 (56:05):
And so I Yeah, let's let's set the context.
You're you're traveling with,you know, Tucker or anybody else
uh on ball, and you're in ahotel and a dude knocks on your
hotel room and you open the doorand he's covered in blood, no
clothes on.

SPEAKER_04 (56:20):
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 (56:21):
That that's what these people are experiencing.
Yeah, yeah.
Up on the 14th floor.

unknown (56:26):
Gosh.

SPEAKER_00 (56:27):
Yeah, so they had already called the police, and
so I told the people at thehotel desk, well, my husband's
right up there with the guy whosays he did it.
And um, you know, I said, he'syou know, he's the FBI agent,
it's okay, but we need somebodyto go in there.
And he's like, Oh, he's the FBIagent.
So they didn't even want to goin there.

SPEAKER_03 (56:43):
He's got it.

SPEAKER_00 (56:44):
The security guy was backing away from me and going
around the other side of thedesk.
And I was like, Okay.
Yeah, so we're on our own.
Yeah, yeah.
But we went back up there andyou know, Clay was talking to
him and trying to calm him downand everything.
And I don't know how specific Ican get about this guy in this
situation.

SPEAKER_03 (57:00):
You can get very specific.

SPEAKER_00 (57:01):
Okay, okay.
So we're talking to him, and wefind out that he's he's
basically a runaway and he'shomeless, and he was living out
in one of the homelessencampments in downtown Atlanta,
and that he had arranged a datewith this guy through an online
meeting, you know, one of theapps or something.
And the man he had arranged thedate with had um apparently, in

(57:24):
his words, and the young kid'swords, because literally like
21, this kid, um had thought hehad kind of gotten a little
violent, so he pulled out aknife, started stabbing him,
stabbed him like 17 times, andthen took off running down the
stairs, 14 flights of stairs ina in, you know, this state of
fear trying to get away.
But he had a little bit ofremorse in him, you know,
because he's like, uh, I just Ithink I just helped me, help me,

(57:46):
help me, you know, and he hewanted his help.
So um, you know, so Clay wassubduing him, and he we had
moved him by that time into thisroom where there was a popcorn
machine.
So, like you come in uh after aday out on the, you know, in
Atlanta or whatever, you comeand you can get popcorn for your
kids or whatever.
So I'm literally standing thereblocking people from coming in.
And and the police still weren'tthere.

(58:08):
Security guy was still hidingaround the desk.
He didn't want anything to dowith this.
So the hotel manager's trying tohelp out.
But she's headed upstairs tocheck out the scene with these
little tiny, you know, balletflat shoes on, which if you know
you're not a lady, you might notknow what those are, but they're
basically really small shoes.
Um, and she came back down, hershoes were soaked with blood

(58:29):
because there was so much bloodin the hallway up there.
Um but rewind back quite a bit.
As soon as that happened, Icalled my kids upstairs because
they're and I told them, stay inyour rooms, don't go anywhere.
Because we didn't know, was it agang thing going on?
What was going on up there, youknow?
And I was terrified for my kids,but I knew I couldn't go up
there and help them.
So I wake texted all three ofthem so that at least one of
them would answer, you know,because they're getting ready

(58:50):
for bed or whatever.
Made them all stay in the room.

SPEAKER_02 (58:52):
And then we've already been a shooting the
night before on a bus.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:57):
And a stabbing and a, you know, just downtown
Atlanta.
Um, but then we had to wait, youknow, by the hotel by the hotel
um elevator trying to tellpeople don't go up, don't go up.
And we had some other friendswho were who were actually
staying on that floor, sothey're waiting for them to come
back so we could tell them youcan't go up, you can't go up.
And they brought the guy down.
Um, when the police did getthere, and they put our the kid

(59:18):
he was watching in handcuffs,and they brought the victim
down.
And they had him covered with asheet, but in his arm was
dangling out the side, but theydidn't have his face covered.
But when I looked at him, I meanhe looked like he was maybe 30s,
40s, but he his face and hisskin were as gray as your shirt.
You got on a gray snowbirdt-shirt right now, and it he was
just gray, gray, gray.
I thought for sure he was yeah,I thought for sure he was gonna

(59:40):
die.
We looked into it later, and Iguess he did not.

SPEAKER_02 (59:43):
He lived.

SPEAKER_00 (59:44):
Yeah, wow.
But um, you know, we had thiskid in handcuffs, blood all over
him, maybe 21 scared to death,talking to us.
And we're like, we asked thepolice officer, can we talk to
him?
And he's yeah, sure, go go forit.
He's literally standing backagainst the wall.
He's not even like up and activewith the kid.
He just has him handcuffed andhas him sitting down.

(01:00:05):
So Clay talked to him for awhile.
I don't know if you want totell.
He talked to him for a while.
And then I was like, you know, Ijust really wanted to go talk to
him.
I think he needs a mom.
So I just told him, you know,hey, I told him how much people
loved him, how much he wasloved.
And he said, Well, God doesn'tlove homosexuals.
So I took that opportunity.
I was like, Well, I gotta Igotta talk to him now, you know.
And I just told him how, youknow, the love of God is not

(01:00:26):
dependent on your sin.
And that, you know, you you youcan't lose his love because of
your sin.
He doesn't hate you becauseyou're homosexual, but he does
not approve of your sin, youknow.
And we had we talked a littlebit more, but the guy was he
reeked of alcohol and he wasclearly in a state of fear.
I don't know how much he gotfrom what I said, but I tried to

(01:00:48):
make sure he felt loved and alittle bit calm and secure in
that moment.
You know, I felt like more of amom than an evangelist, you
know, for sure.
But I also felt like, you know,what other opportunity am I
gonna have to be face to facewith a homosexual prostitute
runaway who's just possiblycommitted murder?

(01:01:08):
Wow.
You know, you don't get thosechances very often.
So yeah, so we just had to stepin and you know, just try to try
to say what we could for thatkid.
And the fact that we had thetime to, the fact that the
police let us is pretty, prettyrare to me, really.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:23):
Yeah, when they came in and found out that I was an
FBI agent, they actually left.
They're like, hey, you're gonnago take care of a thing.
Can you can you hold him for alittle bit?
I'm I'm like, yeah, I can, but Idon't even have any handcuffs
with me, man.
I'm I'm here I'm on vacation.
Yeah, I'm in a basketballtournament.
But I mean, yeah, I can I I gothim, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:42):
Did you follow up through just through the law
enforcement channels to see whathappened with the court case or
whatever happened to that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:48):
Yeah, they I mean they prosecuted him for for some
version of assault.
I forget what it was.
I don't think I don't think heprobably because he pled guilty,
but I don't think he got all youknow, they they held the
attempted murder or somethinglike that.
But but, you know.
Yeah, I mean the the what'swhat's crazy though, and you're

(01:02:12):
talking about just crazysituations, you know, um you
know, you get done with all ofthat.
And I had to kind of manhandlehim a little bit.
He didn't he didn't fight, buthe was struggling to get away or
whatever, you know, he's justout of his mind.
Um but I get done, we get donetalking to him, and I'm standing
there and I look at my hands andthey're just covered in blood.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:34):
Oh gosh.
And I was not happy about that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:37):
And you know, normally, obviously, you know,
if you go, if you're on duty oryou know, for law enforcement
guys, you got you got gloves.
You're you're wearing gloves forthis very reason.
You don't know what you're gonnakind of come up on.
Um, but I'm just sitting in thebreakfast area of a hotel.
Brenda and I, we're just we'rejust talking, you know, we just
weren't tired and we're justhanging out.

(01:03:00):
And um, and so um, yeah, so I'msitting there and I'm looking at
that and I'm like, oh, you gottabe kidding me, right?
I mean, this this kid's a maleprostitute and and he's you know
been with who knows how manypeople, right?
Uh uh high likelihood he's HIVpositive and you know, all that
kind of stuff.

(01:03:21):
And so um anyway, so yeah, I hadto, I cleaned up, you know,
alcohol and all kinds of,there's a whole procedure you
do.
And fortunately, which is whichis completely unheard of, you
can look at my hands right now.
I've always got cuts on my handsfrom doing whether I'm working
on vehicles or woodworking orwhatever.
I just beat my hands up.

(01:03:41):
And uh I didn't have any cuts.
Wow, I didn't have any open,open areas in my hands that
time, and uh, which I obviouslyI'm very thankful for.
But uh yeah, I mean when Brendasays she talked to him, I'll
give a little more context.
I mean, this guy, this guy wasliterally vomiting, you know,
alcohol and all this otherstuff.

(01:04:01):
And she she knelt down and gotin his face, not aggressively in
his face, but like lovingly inhis face, and um like moved past
the absolute stench of alcoholand vomit and blood and sin and

(01:04:22):
horribleness of all kinds, andum presented the gospel to the
kid.
And again, back to sovereigntyof God.
Uh, you know, it's not it's notour job to save people, he and
he alone saves, but it's our jobto be obedient in the moment,
and and she definitely was.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:39):
That's crazy.
Man, that's intense.
Thank y'all for coming back anddoing this.
Yes, happy to.
It's uh I'm glad we're on thesame team.
Yeah, the kingdom team and theearth team.
Yeah.
Good guy, bad guy team.
Um, but y'all are family, y'allare a snowbird family, so I'm

(01:04:59):
excited for the NSR crowd to getto hear from y'all.
And you you're an NSR listenertoo.
I always appreciate theencouragement when you text
about a particular episode.
And um this is this is the theseare the episodes I've looked
most forward to since last year.
So to finally get to do it, it'sawesome.
And uh so thank y'all.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:21):
Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required.
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