April 17, 2025 • 42 mins
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Two therapists pull back the curtain on what actually happens in therapy and why it's so powerful for creating change in your life.
• Therapy is for everyone, not just those with severe mental health issues
• The most impactful aspect of therapy is the connection with your therapist, more than any specific techniques
• Finding the right therapist is crucial - it's okay to "shop around" until you find someone you connect with
• Therapy often feels worse before it gets better as you unpack difficult emotions
• Therapy isn't about being "fixed" but developing sustainable skills for an ongoing journey
• The therapeutic relationship provides a unique space with unconditional positive regard
• Past coping mechanisms that once served us may no longer be helpful in our current lives
• Like a garden, our mental health has seasons that require different levels of attention
Visit maryrothwell.net for more information about mental health resources and to connect with Mary directly.
You can find Laura HERE
No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz, PhD
Gabby Bernstein
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
The topic for today is somethingI had planned to talk about
solo, but I got a gift.
(00:51):
A fellow therapist, who I justmet through social media, but
who was close to megeographically, enthusiastically
agreed to share the mic with meand discuss this very important
topic, something we're bothpassionate about.
Today, laura Smith, a fellowlicensed professional counselor,
and I will be talking aboutwhat we wish people knew about
therapy.
I think that often people haveideas about what therapy is or
(01:12):
why other people go to therapythat might be a barrier for them
to start their own therapyjourney are often people that do
traverse the sometimes dauntingroad of finding a therapist and
talking with them a few times,only to pull back and stop
attending sessions.
Speaking as a therapist, thisis a tough one, especially if I
(01:34):
see a path forward for them thatcould bring life-changing
insights.
But to keep doing this work,you necessarily need to park
those situations to the side,even though it can feel like
reading a book only to find outthat the last chapters are
missing.
If you've never had therapy andit seems like a mystery what
exactly does happen in theoffice?
Is it like the show shrinking?
(01:55):
Does the client lay on thecouch while the therapist sits
behind them taking notes?
Or is it like any number ofmovies where the therapist turns
out to have a more seriousmental health concern than the
client?
Or have you tried therapy andit felt unhelpful?
Or you didn't connect with yourtherapist, or you even felt
(02:15):
worse after a few sessions.
Spoiler alert, that's commonand we'll tell you why.
All right, let me give you aquick intro of my guest today
and we can talk therapy.
Laura Smith is a former publicschool teacher, lover of yoga
and a nature girl like me.
She's a mom of two littles aneight-year-old daughter and a
five-year-old son.
She's also a reader and ispassionate about the work she
(02:38):
does with her clients.
Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, laura.
Laura (02:43):
Thank you so much, Mary.
I'm always so excited to sitdown with fellow mental health
professionals, and this is atopic that I just am so excited
to talk more about with youtoday.
Mary (02:56):
Well, I'm excited too, and we have so many cool things to
share, so let's jump in.
I want to start with somethingthat you and I discussed a
little bit via email and I thinkit's huge.
I think there's a misconceptionthat only quote "crazy people
go to a therapist.
And I'm really strongly puttingthat word crazy in quotes,
(03:19):
because here's the newsflash andI think I mentioned it on this
show before All the besttherapists I know, including you
and me, have gone to therapists, absolutely Yep, and you know,
I think it's what people shouldunderstand is there are levels
of mental and emotionalpractitioners, just like medical
(03:39):
professionals.
So you're not going to go to thehospital for a common cold, but
sometimes you need a specialistfor certain issues.
So sometimes there aresituations that cause a more
serious mental health diagnosisand in those cases there might
be an admission to a facilityand a team approach.
But I think for most of ourclients, and probably many
(04:02):
people listening, there areissues that simply interfere
with goals people have, likehaving a healthy relationship,
effective parenting, adjustingto a new baby, advancing a
career things that all of usstruggle with.
They are not things that aretoo insignificant to go to
therapy.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Laura (04:23):
Yes, you know I'm a firm believer in that therapy is for
everyone and you know it'ssomething that does get brought
up in in sessions from time totime and you know I see clients
five and older.
You know a lot of m y youngerclients will kind of say you
know, I don't know why I'm hereor what's wrong with me, and I
(04:48):
love talking about it because Ican tell these clients of mine
that nothing's wrong with themand nothing is broken and this
is just a journey to finding outour best selves and really just
learning about ourselves andhaving a little bit of help on
the journey.
Mary (05:07):
Well, I love that.
You said that people come inand they say they don't know why
they're there.
And you know it can sound likewell, how can you not know why?
Don't you know why you go tothe doctor?
But when you go to the doctoryou just know you don't feel
good, you don't always know whatit is right, yep, yep.
So I think we help them teasethat out.
(05:30):
So that's not something thatreally ended up on sort of our
list of topics today, but Ithink you've brought up a really
good point that people mayhesitate to go because they feel
like they have to go in thereand be clear about what's wrong.
Laura (05:49):
Absolutely.
And you know I tell people allthe time you can just show up
and the way we'll we'll kind ofappear, you know we will help
you find what it is that you'relooking for or seeking.
You don't have to have a clearplan always.
And you know, for me I love toshare, you know, with my clients
(06:11):
that there have been times inmy life that I've I've been in
therapy.
I will probably.
I love therapy.
I think therapy is for everyone.
You know, recently I was eventhinking, you know, maybe I'll
get back into therapy forbalancing, you know, motherhood
and owning a private practice,because really I've just
experienced the benefits oftherapy firsthand and seeing how
(06:35):
really just transformative itcan be, you know, to our lives.
Mary (06:50):
Great point, and I think that brings up this idea that
people may believe that thetherapist is an expert.
And you know, I was trained waylonger time ago than you were,
so I've been doing this work forover three decades and I know
when I started there was sort ofmore this idea that you're
trained as the expert, and Ithink that's changing.
I think thankfully that'schanging.
I think the client should beempowered to.
(07:13):
You know they have a voice andso one of the things that I
think is beautiful aboutcounseling and therapy, I
believe it's an art, because youand I know that the same client
could walk into either of ouroffices and that session is
going to go in a differentdirection, absolutely yeah.
Laura (07:32):
Totally different, totally different experience, I
think that's beautiful aboutthat too.
I agree and I think somethingyou know we also wanted to talk
about is clients understandingthat and knowing that.
Something I like to saysometimes in session is not
everybody is for everybodyFinding a therapist that feels
like a good fit and you know,that feels like they can really
(07:55):
do some good work with.
Mary (07:57):
Yeah, very important.
I love the idea of theempowerment of a client.
I love the idea of theempowerment of a client and
often when you go to therapy,you're typically not feeling at
the top of your game, so findingthat confidence can be hard,
but it's important, I think, foreveryone to know that it's
(08:19):
their journey and so, while, yes, I think a lot of times we need
to figure out a path through,and we are educators and we are
listeners and all of thosethings, I think of it more as a
partnership.
Yeah, yes, so being able tospeak up like if you, if someone
(08:42):
goes in and this is not everytherapist is good yeah, that is
true too.
Yeah, yeah, just like anyprofession you know exactly so
you can have somebody put a roofon and it leaks, or you can
have, you know, and sometimesthis is very, very personal.
(09:04):
So I know I've gone to medicaldoctors and I've just had a
feeling not, this doesn't evenmean they weren't good at their
craft, but if you don't feelcomfortable, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Laura (09:18):
Yeah, yeah, it's going to be hard to open up and be
vulnerable and all of that.
And knowing that it doesn'tmean that something is wrong
with you.
You know, even bringing up themedical professionals, you know
I'll have clients tell me, well,I just didn't, I didn't feel
right or I didn't feelcomfortable, and that's okay.
That just means that you know,maybe you need to keep going on
(09:41):
your journey, look for someoneelse, somebody that you do
connect with.
And the same thing fortherapists and I feel like good
therapists and you knowtherapists that are working to
help people.
You know, be them best, theirbest selves, and confident is we
.
We want to empower you and wewant to know if something isn't
working and we aren't offended.
If you decide to, you know,start working with someone else
(10:04):
or if you need a littlesomething, that that isn't what
we offer Because, like you said,it is just so different and
personal and I love how youcalled it an art.
That's beautiful.
Mary (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, and it's also, I think, important and very,
very difficult for the client tobe able to recognize.
Are they uncomfortable with theprocess?
Because it is hard to you know.
I call it the junk drawer.
We're going to talk about thismore, but we all have a junk
(10:38):
drawer right when we throw thestuff we don't know what to do
with, and someday it gets toofull and when you open it you're
like holy crap, like look atall this stuff.
So that's sort of what therapyis like, so being able to
differentiate between is it justmy discomfort with sharing or
is it a discomfort with theclinician?
Laura (11:01):
Sure, sure, I love that example too of the junk drawer.
You know something I give oneto my clients.
I'll probably borrow the junkdrawer too, but you know they'll
come in and they'll kind oftalk about how uncomfortable it
is, and I think something wetouched on by email was feeling
that things sometimes feel alittle bit worse before they get
(11:22):
better.
An example I like to give myclients is that they have an old
injury that they have ignoredor overcompensated for or use
substances or other distractionsto cope with.
You know, when they decide togo to physical therapy and start
working on this injury, it'sgoing to hurt, it's not going to
feel good and I think sometimesthat can.
(11:43):
That can help clients,especially because lots of us do
have physical injuries.
We know what that's like, butit can feel very uncomfortable.
Digging some of this up andbecause a lot of it is stuff
that we do, we avoid until wecan't anymore, just like the
junk drawer.
Mary (11:59):
Yeah, and this might be hard to describe on an audio
show, but at one point I saw ameme of a China cabinet, so the
cabinet where the doors areglass in the front so you can
see the plates inside, and astack of plates had fallen so
that they were wedged betweenthe shelf and the door.
(12:22):
So you knew if you opened thosedoors the plates were going to
fall and break.
And I feel like so many of usare that china cabinet that our
stack has fallen and we're likeif I open this freaking door,
it's going to break.
And you know what the saying youhave to break a few eggs to
make an omelet To get to beauty.
(12:45):
Sometimes there's mess and thatis very, very common in therapy
.
Laura (12:52):
Yes, Yep, and we're here to kind of help you clean up
that china cabinet andreorganize and pick up the
pieces with you and we're in themess with you, and I think
that's why this work is just sospecial, because people trust us
to be alongside them in some ofthose moments where everything
is crashing down.
(13:13):
But we're with them and thatconnection is is just a valuable
piece, which is why it's againwhy it's so important.
Mary (13:21):
Well and I think you mentioned this and I want to
highlight it much more thatoften when you go to therapy,
things do feel worse before theyfeel better, and we can liken
it to a physical injury.
When you start to really work amuscle that you haven't because
it's weak, it's going to hurt,and emotional pain for a lot of
(13:43):
people is much more intolerablethan physical pain.
So I think being able toacknowledge that you know, just
for a client to say you knowwhat I want to quit, and then we
can work with that, becausesometimes they leave and you
don't know why, and you knowthat's difficult, because
(14:05):
sometimes you're like oh, I see,cause you know it's as a
therapist, you're hearing them,and then you're surveying the
whole landscape when should I gowith this?
Or you know, helping to clarifywhat's the most important or
what's the most painful.
And you see, okay, I see thatlight.
They might not see it yet, butthe lights at the end of the
tunnel and then they ghost youand you know it's.
(14:30):
It's that's also, I think, partof the process.
Sometimes people aren't ready,and that is okay, but I think I
want us to normalize that.
Laura (14:39):
Sometimes you just feel so yucky when you look in that
junk drawer and you see, oh mygosh, I haven't dealt with this
stuff for years, sure sure, andyou decide to just kind of close
it up again and really, youknow, advocating for people, for
our clients, to have thatconversation with us, and maybe
(15:00):
it is like, all right, this isnot the time.
Or, you know, sometimesfinances are involved, or maybe
it's a scheduling issue, butsometimes it's just too painful,
too much and us knowing that asclinicians, we can work with
our clients, you know what wouldmake this feel better.
You know, maybe we pulled outtoo much junk at once.
(15:23):
Let's, let's refocus onsomething.
Maybe that feels doable and andreally it's a, it's a lifestyle
change and just small, tangiblechanges that you can keep up in
your life.
Mary (15:39):
Yeah, and I think too the idea of when something is really
painful.
Of course we want to pull backfrom that, but you know, for
there to be that sort ofcontainer of'm not sure this is
working for me.
Or, you know, I'll have clientssay to me I like homework.
I'm not typically a homeworkgiver, but I will work with you
(16:15):
if there are things that willhelp you.
You know physical things to dobetween each appointment, but
it's also, I think, thetherapist's job to inform a
client that, okay, we're goingto dig into some stuff and it
might really hurt and you mightbe tempted to not come back.
Or, if there's an issue withmoney, you can tell the truth,
(16:37):
because I'm going to guaranteeyou we've heard it before.
Yes, and that might be anotherone for our list, laura that I
think some people think I'm theonly person that's ever felt
this way.
Laura (16:48):
For sure Nope, and we have heard it all before, and I
think probably my favorite thingabout being a therapist is just
that this is a place where youare not going to be judged.
That unconditional positiveregard that you know is one of
our principles of being atherapist is this is a no
judgment zone.
It is okay and to practicebeing vulnerable and sharing
(17:12):
things that you're uncomfortablewith, like finances.
Mary (17:16):
Yeah, and one of the things that I'm going to kind of
go off on a little tangent hereand I hadn't really intended to
go here, but when we're talkingabout pain and even trauma,
there are a lot of people thatare out there as coaches.
And I am not dissing coachingat all I'm working on a coaching
(17:37):
certification for nutrition butI think, being careful when you
see someone that says they aresomething like a trauma coach or
you know things where reallystrong words like that, and
again, not dissing them becausehopefully they've had training,
but I say hopefully, becausecoaching is unregulated, yes, so
(17:59):
the other thing that I think isdifferent about therapy and
again, I wear both hats, butvery, very clear, clear
boundaries between those tworoles.
But therapists also have what'scalled supervision, which means
if we encounter something wherewe feel like gosh, this is a
lot, I'm not sure sort of whatdirection to go.
(18:21):
Or we have a client that's indistress and maybe they
mentioned wanting to harmthemselves or someone else.
We have other people that we goto.
Laura (18:36):
Yes, and you're absolutely right, and probably
another one of my favoritethings about being a therapist
is having those resources andthose people, those other
therapists, past supervisors,that I can call up and kind of
run things by get a secondopinion or sometimes it's some
reassurance.
But yeah, sometimes there'll bemultiple licensed therapists
(18:59):
helping your therapist work withyou.
Mary (19:03):
There's a network.
If someone is doing the work ofcounseling therapy ethically,
they're part of a network thatthey can turn to.
And again, I want to be clearthat there are some counselors,
therapists, that may not operatein the best way and so, again,
follow your gut if something'snot feeling comfortable or if
(19:27):
you really want to work with acertain gender of therapist, yes
, you know, it is your journeyand you are in many parts of
this.
You're driving the car.
Laura (19:37):
Absolutely and honoring that intuition, which is
something that you talk about alot on your on your podcast and,
I think, so many of my clientsthat I've talked to.
It's either been labeled asanxiety or overthinking, but
when we really dig into it, it'sjust we have this intuition and
learning to listen to it,learning to trust it and, like
you said, following it.
Mary (19:59):
Yeah, and that I love that you mentioned other episodes,
because I do talk about likeessential nature and I think,
with the idea of people womentaking up their space, we often
feel like we don't want tooffend someone, right?
So we don't, we don't use ourvoice, but we have an intuition
(20:19):
and so if you say to yourtherapist, you know, know, I
feel like this isn't working,can the language would be, can
you give me a referral tosomeone else, or if they're
visibly upset with that, thattells you you've made a good
decision absolutely yeah.
Yeah, because it's not firstpersonal and we we know that and
well, and I think the otherthing is, you know, there might
(20:42):
be a situation where maybe I'vetaken someone through part of
their journey and then I mightsay, okay, here's an.
So we have kind of come up withsome coping strategies for you.
You're doing pretty well.
But you have this other issuethat you wanted to address.
I feel like I don't have asmuch knowledge in that area as
(21:02):
so-and-so does, and sometimes wemake the referral.
Laura (21:05):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think it's like part of being, you know, an ethical therapist
is knowing you know this is outof my scope of practice, or I
think I know somebody who wouldbe a better fit and I like how
you said, you know, because ourjourney is ever changing, you
know, and we can be there forpart of it, but really we don't
take any anything personalbecause you know, we know that
(21:29):
even in my own I kind of jokewith clients.
You know, I've said I've beento other therapists and I've
done the intakes and I kind ofsay like, yeah, I mean you
should be shopping, you shouldbe shopping for your therapist.
Meet a couple, see how you feel, see how your body reacts and
remember that you are the clientand this service is for you.
And in this moment I mean we'resending a message, a strong
(21:52):
message to, to our mind, thatI'm putting myself first here
and and that can be really,really, really something that
that our body and mind need tohear.
Mary (22:04):
Yes, very much so, and the other part of, I think,
intuition is that sense ofconnectedness to someone.
There's very clear researchthat the most impactful thing
about therapy is the connectionwith the therapist.
It's not about number one, Yep,it's not about do you use
(22:27):
cognitive therapy, Do you useEMDR, like all of those things
are wonderful tools to have, buthaving that connection and you
know, one of the things I thinkabout is where else do you go?
And for 45 to 55 minutes it isall about you and you can say
whatever you want.
Absolutely so cool.
Laura (22:48):
Absolutely it really is.
And just using it as your timeand you know, I see some teens
sometimes who are a littlereluctant to come into the
therapy room.
You know their parents havekind of said like this is
something that that I want youto do and I love, I love to tell
them this is your time, this isyour space and this is all
(23:08):
about you.
So please and I've, I've hadkids, I've had adults tell me,
you know, if I'm going a certainway or if I'm suggesting a
certain activity that, forwhatever reason we might, we
might investigate it a littlebit, but you're not ready or
comfortable to do, please say so.
Mary (23:26):
This is your time and you bring up a good point.
I haven't worked with youngpeople for a few years.
I used to be a high schoolcounselor for almost 20 years,
so I love working with teenagers.
But when you have a parentbringing a child to you or
anyone under 18, sometimesparents have the idea that
(23:47):
you're going to tell themeverything and you know, isn't
that a challenging conversationto have?
Laura (23:53):
Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, that can be one of the more
challenging ones, and you know,something that I tell parents is
again what you pointed out isit is this relationship that's
the most important.
So you're bringing your childto a trusted professional and we
want them to get out of thiswhat they can.
(24:14):
But a lot of that is respectingtheir privacy, their boundaries
, and I'll have very just, openconversations with my teenagers
especially.
I think this is somethingimportant that maybe we share
with mom or dad or caregiver andthey might say no, you know,
I'm not comfortable with it.
And then from there we caninvestigate why.
(24:34):
Why are we not comfortable?
Or do we need help withcommunication skills, or what is
the barrier to this?
Mary (24:43):
Well, and I know from the work that you do and first of
all I want to let the listenersknow that you do work with a lot
of young people and I have somuch respect for that because
there are so many dynamics atplay.
You might have a kid who hasparents that are divorcing and
then you know you have thatdynamic that a parent wants to
(25:05):
know what they said and parentsthat I mean by rights are very
worried about their kids.
So you not only have to assurethe parents that if there's any
danger to their child you willtell them, but you have to.
You can't help someone if theydon't feel like they can tell
you things in confidence.
Laura (25:25):
Absolutely Yep, and you are so right with the different
dynamics of what makes a familyand who is my client.
And I think just keeping themain focus, a central focus,
helps me in some of those morecomplicated cases who is my
client and what is best for thisclient?
And sometimes having those hardconversations with parents and
(25:48):
them questioning it and ussharing the reason, the research
, what we see, where we see thisgoing and our goals for really
not just their child but thefamily as a whole, oh yeah, yes,
and that's the other thing thatI really admire people who do
family therapy work, because, oh, that is that takes a lot of
(26:09):
energy, a lot.
Mary (26:11):
Yes, you're still young Laura's younger than me, so she
still has the energy.
Laura (26:15):
Yes, I can kind of see, though, how people kind of phase
out of it eventually, or, youknow, and I've kind of learned
how to stack my schedule in away that isn't feeling draining,
so I'll have just like a reallyintense kid session and then
maybe have an adult that I knowwants to sit and talk, so kind
of just mixing it up too.
I enjoy all agents and, as youknow, since you've worked with
(26:37):
younger people too, it's justalso very different, which is
another reason I love this, Ilove this career.
Mary (26:44):
Yeah Well, and often I wish that I had the family there
.
And this brings up one of theother points that we were going
to talk about why do people endup in therapy?
So it's such a buffet ofreasons, but I think that what
we learn early in life, we learnthings to survive and then
(27:05):
often those things stop working.
So this is where I think beingable to get in on the front end,
like with family therapy,because we get to a point often
in our lives and we realizewe're doing a certain thing.
It might be that we are crazilyindependent and to the point
that it's hurting us, or we aretoo dependent.
(27:28):
There could be a lot of thingsand we recognize oh, in my
family I was the caretaker, ormy parents weren't available
emotionally for me, or they hadtheir own mental health issues
and so many of that, and this isa Freudian thing.
So we're not going to go thewhole way down that route, but
we are so informed by not justour nature but how we were, or
(27:52):
were not, nurtured.
Laura (27:54):
Sure, sure, and making that connection can be so
powerful.
Oh, you know, that's why Iisolate when I have feelings of
sadness or anger, you know,because sometimes, you know,
we'll have conversations.
Well, when I was younger and Iwas upset or I cried, I was sent
to my room and the door wasclosed.
And now, as an adult, that'swhat.
(28:15):
That's what we're doing.
We're we're fleeing and we'renot sitting with those feelings
and we believe they're too muchfor other people.
But this isolation now ishurting us.
It's hurting our families, ourpartners, so many things.
But making that connection canjust be so empowering.
Oh, that's why I did that, but,and it served me then.
But it's no longer serving meand I want to learn a new habit,
(28:38):
a new way.
Mary (28:40):
Yeah, and I think people tend to think that's the part of
them that's broken, and I loveto reframe that as no, you did
what you did to survive and Idon't know.
I mean, I think a lot of peopleprobably recognize that their
biggest strength is often theirbiggest weakness.
(29:03):
Yes, yes, so you can beamazingly independent, but that
doesn't mean you're an islandand so you know, I think
reframing, I love positivepsychology because it's looking
at people through theirstrengths and often we just need
to temper or find a differentway to use some of those
(29:24):
survival skills because they'vebecome unhelpful or unhealthy.
Laura (29:31):
Sure, sure, and even you know, befriending or accepting
past versions of ourselves,understanding why we reacted
that way and why we had to, andthat it was a coping skill and
that it kept us safe, and thatwe're that.
We're grateful for it.
Because you know something?
I find a lot of people in thetherapy room.
You know they're either angrythat they have this I keep
(29:53):
thinking of the book no badparts If you're familiar.
Mary (29:56):
I know, yeah, yeah.
Laura (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, but kind of befriending those parts,
learning, learning about themand and knowing that it just
makes us who we are.
But then going back to thatstrengths-based how can we use
this for our betterment?
Mary (30:12):
Yeah, and that is a beautiful way of saying no bad
parts because we sometimes thinkabout, maybe if we were a
teenager that was rebellious, orwe were someone who, again, was
a pleaser I often have, becausenow we have TikTok, we have so
many things where people aremore informed, sometimes for the
(30:34):
better and sometimes for theworse but they'll come in and
say, well, I was a pleaser, okay, well, let's talk about what
that means.
How's it serve you now and howdoes it no longer serve you?
But again, framing it as my God, what a brave kid you were to
make it through, yep, to make itthrough what you did,
absolutely so, in doing yourfamily work.
(30:57):
Wow, like how powerful to startto change the dynamic of the
entire system and I love systemstherapy, but that is a whole
other episode so powerful to dothat work, laura.
Laura (31:12):
Well, thank you, thank you, and I think you know our
clients just make it worth it by.
You know, when we get to seethat transformation and we get
to be with them and I'm going togo back to your China cabinet
example, but you know, when weget to see them, you know, put
their China cabinet backtogether it just really
(31:32):
motivates us as cliniciansbecause it's why we're here.
You know, we want to walkalongside of you and kind of you
know there's a quote that talksabout and I'm going to misquote
it, so I won't even but we'rejust with you while you find
your light.
We can't exactly find it foryou or show it to you, but we're
alongside with you on thejourney.
Mary (31:55):
Yeah, yeah, it's a partnership, for sure, and I
think sort of to segue into, Ibelieve sort of the last bullet
point that we had talked aboutis that no one's ever fixed.
So it's not like all of asudden one day you're going to
arrive at mental health and youwill never have anxiety, you
will never have sadness.
(32:17):
It's an ongoing journey.
Just like we have to payattention to stay physically
healthy, we need to do the samefor mental health.
Laura (32:26):
Absolutely, and a lot of times the transformation it
really is just kind of it's alifestyle change If we want long
lasting results.
Like hey, I'm realizing I neversay no to plans and I'm
overwhelmed and I'm overbookedand I'm always stressed and so
we're going to learn how to setboundaries in here.
But, like you said, thatdoesn't mean that there won't be
(32:46):
situations or people or timesin our lives where that's a
thing again.
But it's like a muscle memorythe more that we do it and it's
just a whole lot of repetitionand staying focused on that end
goal.
This is going to make me feelbetter, advocating for myself
and my own needs, making sure Ilike myself and I want to do
(33:08):
what I'm agreeing to.
That's going to feel good.
And we get to feel that it'smotivating for our clients too,
of like, all right, that feltgood, and now I'm noticing I'm
not doing it and that doesn'tfeel good.
So let me go back here andcontinue.
Mary (33:20):
Yeah, and even being able to say between sessions oh, I
didn't do so well with that goallast week.
That's something to beembarrassed about, cause I think
about.
I love chocolate cake and a lotof the time I can have a bite
or two or none and I'm good.
But you know, sometimes we hita point of life, or it might be
an event, or you know whetherit's you know consuming too much
(33:43):
social media, or it's we had acrisis in our own lives.
We backslide with physicalthings, maybe we stop exercising
for a while, or our healthyeating habits take a dive and we
get off the track.
The same thing happens.
You can have those copingstrategies, but you might either
sort of think, oh, I'm good now, I'm not going to use these,
(34:07):
and then when things get alittle bit rough, it's hard to
get back on that track, and soit's okay to go back to therapy
and say I'm sort of off track.
Laura (34:16):
I spend a lot of time reassuring my clients that there
is no failing at therapy,there's no wrong way to do this,
just showing up exactly as youare.
And if that is, I didn't thinkabout one thing we said last
time and that is okay, and itkind of goes back to this.
You know, what makes this abeautiful relationship is that
(34:37):
this is a no judgment zone, thatwe are viewing you with
unconditional positive regard.
You don't have to beembarrassed to say those things,
but sometimes it does give usthen just a little more
information of you know, maybeyour relationship with shame or
with things not getting done, orI mean we can use it all, so
(34:58):
there's no wrong way to be.
Mary (35:02):
Yeah, and I think too, certain situations are going to
make us feel like we arere-experiencing something.
So I feel like life challengesus to go to the next step.
So maybe there's a newrelationship and you realize, oh
my gosh, I'm enacting thesesame patterns again.
And so you know, I know for me,when I would have big life
(35:24):
changes or losses, that's when Iwould feel like, all right, I'm
going to go back to therapybecause I need to sort of have
somebody else to help me sortthrough this.
Yeah, well, and the other thingtoo we talked, you know, a lot
about this idea of unconditionalpositive regard.
But I'm going to asterisk that,laura, in that that doesn't mean
(35:45):
we're not going to challenge aclient.
Sure, sure, that's how growthhappens.
And you know, as a nature girl,you know the small trees, the
saplings.
They're made to be very bendy,like in the wind they'll bend.
Yep, a big, rigid tree is theone that's going to break or
fall over in a storm.
(36:05):
So being able to sort ofchallenge you to be bendy and go
to the edge of your comfortzone, that's how you're going to
grow.
Laura (36:14):
They're going to be supported and that's why the
work in, because you talkedabout TikTok and I know a lot of
people, you know, I've even hadpeople tell me well, you know,
I just asked AI, what would atherapist tell me?
But a lot of it is theenvironment, the relationship,
(36:35):
like you said, that number onepredictor we have to know that
we're in a safe enough placethat we can bend, and we can
bend but we're not going tobreak.
And I kind of like what yousaid too is you know, we're
these things that we have tolearn.
There was Gabrielle Bernstein.
She is on Instagram, she hassome books that I read, but one
of her main teachings is thatshe says you know, the universe
(36:59):
kind of teaches us things, whatwe need to learn, until we kind
of learn it.
So, whether it's patience orwaiting in the unknown, but
we're going to kind of keepgetting these lessons until we
face them.
Mary (37:12):
Yeah, I say it in a less eloquent way like life will tap
you on the shoulder and then itwill kind of like nudge you with
its elbow.
Then it's going to smack youacross the head and it's all
that.
If we pull that thread it's like, oh, I'm still needing to learn
this, and so that goes back tothe idea that we are never 100%,
(37:33):
always healthy.
They're having ups and downs,backsliding.
That's why we're human.
That happens in nature.
I mean again, probablylisteners are like, oh my God,
she's going to her garden geekplace again.
But you know, there are yearswhere I'll have a plant that
doesn't thrive.
In.
That same plant the next yearlooks great because the
(37:54):
environment that it was in morerain, more sun, whatever was
different.
Laura (37:59):
Absolutely, and you know even the gardening.
There's a visualization that Ilike to talk to with some of my
clients or talk about Sometimesour gardens are flourishing and
they're just doing so well andsometimes it's like I didn't
even put that much work into it.
But lots of times we haveseasons where they're not, or
there's lots of weeds and theyneed a little bit more attention
(38:21):
, and I just love examples thatwe can give our clients, for
them to kind of be reminded whenthey are in nature which we
know is healing in itself that Iwill bloom again and we all
have these seasons, and itreally is the human experience
and as therapists and humans, weare experiencing it too.
Our gardens get dry or weedy orwe need to water them, whatever
(38:46):
it is, but we're living thesame, the same life that you
know.
We are all, all one.
Mary (38:52):
Yeah, Wow, what a beautiful bow to put on this
conversation.
That that was a great way tosum it up, because, yeah, we are
at the end of the day,therapists are people too, and
so one more reason to feel likeas the client be honest, if
something's not connecting oryou need something different, we
are open to that because we are.
(39:13):
Obviously.
We do this work because wewould like people to help heal,
and so we need to know how ourclients are experiencing that.
Laura (39:22):
Yes, absolutely.
And yeah, thank you so much for, for, you know, letting me join
in on this topic andconversation, because just
letting people know that it isokay to advocate for themselves
and to speak up and that theywill be supported.
Mary (39:39):
Yeah, and the one thing that I wanted to make sure that
I highlight here.
So for LPCs which is what weare licensed professional
counselors we are licensed bystate, so we can only work with
clients in the states wherewe're licensed.
You are licensed inPennsylvania and Maryland Yep,
correct, and you do teletherapy,so I do.
(40:00):
We're going to have yourwebsite as part of the show
notes, so if anybody wants toreach out and learn more about
Laura, that information will bethere.
You mentioned GabrielleBernstein and you mentioned no
Bad Parts.
I'm going to have links to thatinformation in the show notes.
Laura (40:18):
Oh perfect.
Mary (40:19):
And thank you so much for taking your time to be here.
This has been so fun to talk toyou.
Laura (40:26):
Yes, thank you Mary for having me.
Yeah, and I think you know Itold you a little bit that I
just love the chance to talk toother mental health
professionals and kind of expandthat network that we talked
about.
Mary (40:37):
Yeah, and I think it's that peek behind the curtain.
I think it can be reallyhelpful because sometimes I take
for granted you know with whatI do, but I know sometimes
people will bring up like, well,I don't even know, like what is
therapy or a new client will bewill be like what happens there
.
So being able to do that withsomeone and discuss and have
sort of chat about it, I thinkis really cool.
(40:59):
And so one of the mostimportant reasons I do this
podcast is because it's awonderfully supportive community
of both women and men thatsupport women taking up their
space in the world and living alife of fulfillment.
And I love to hear from mylisteners.
So please comment, follow ortext me directly using the link
in the show notes.
(41:19):
Reviews are really helpful andlet me know what you thought of
this episode or tell me whatyou'd love to hear about.
Any mental health or wellnesstopic is not off limits.
You can also visit my websiteat maryrothwellnet there's a
link in the show notes to seeall the impactful options I have
to help people find health andwellness and to see all my
(41:41):
podcast episodes in one place.
And, as always, thanks forlistening and until next time,
go out into the world and be theamazing, resilient, vibrant
violet that you are.
Thank you.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
The topic for today is somethingI had planned to talk about
solo, but I got a gift.
(00:51):
A fellow therapist, who I justmet through social media, but
who was close to megeographically, enthusiastically
agreed to share the mic with meand discuss this very important
topic, something we're bothpassionate about.
Today, laura Smith, a fellowlicensed professional counselor,
and I will be talking aboutwhat we wish people knew about
therapy.
I think that often people haveideas about what therapy is or
(01:12):
why other people go to therapythat might be a barrier for them
to start their own therapyjourney are often people that do
traverse the sometimes dauntingroad of finding a therapist and
talking with them a few times,only to pull back and stop
attending sessions.
Speaking as a therapist, thisis a tough one, especially if I
(01:34):
see a path forward for them thatcould bring life-changing
insights.
But to keep doing this work,you necessarily need to park
those situations to the side,even though it can feel like
reading a book only to find outthat the last chapters are
missing.
If you've never had therapy andit seems like a mystery what
exactly does happen in theoffice?
Is it like the show shrinking?
(01:55):
Does the client lay on thecouch while the therapist sits
behind them taking notes?
Or is it like any number ofmovies where the therapist turns
out to have a more seriousmental health concern than the
client?
Or have you tried therapy andit felt unhelpful?
Or you didn't connect with yourtherapist, or you even felt
(02:15):
worse after a few sessions.
Spoiler alert, that's commonand we'll tell you why.
All right, let me give you aquick intro of my guest today
and we can talk therapy.
Laura Smith is a former publicschool teacher, lover of yoga
and a nature girl like me.
She's a mom of two littles aneight-year-old daughter and a
five-year-old son.
She's also a reader and ispassionate about the work she
(02:38):
does with her clients.
Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, laura.
Laura (02:43):
Thank you so much, Mary.
I'm always so excited to sitdown with fellow mental health
professionals, and this is atopic that I just am so excited
to talk more about with youtoday.
Mary (02:56):
Well, I'm excited too, and we have so many cool things to
share, so let's jump in.
I want to start with somethingthat you and I discussed a
little bit via email and I thinkit's huge.
I think there's a misconceptionthat only quote "crazy people
go to a therapist.
And I'm really strongly puttingthat word crazy in quotes,
(03:19):
because here's the newsflash andI think I mentioned it on this
show before All the besttherapists I know, including you
and me, have gone to therapists, absolutely Yep, and you know,
I think it's what people shouldunderstand is there are levels
of mental and emotionalpractitioners, just like medical
(03:39):
professionals.
So you're not going to go to thehospital for a common cold, but
sometimes you need a specialistfor certain issues.
So sometimes there aresituations that cause a more
serious mental health diagnosisand in those cases there might
be an admission to a facilityand a team approach.
But I think for most of ourclients, and probably many
(04:02):
people listening, there areissues that simply interfere
with goals people have, likehaving a healthy relationship,
effective parenting, adjustingto a new baby, advancing a
career things that all of usstruggle with.
They are not things that aretoo insignificant to go to
therapy.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Laura (04:23):
Yes, you know I'm a firm believer in that therapy is for
everyone and you know it'ssomething that does get brought
up in in sessions from time totime and you know I see clients
five and older.
You know a lot of m y youngerclients will kind of say you
know, I don't know why I'm hereor what's wrong with me, and I
(04:48):
love talking about it because Ican tell these clients of mine
that nothing's wrong with themand nothing is broken and this
is just a journey to finding outour best selves and really just
learning about ourselves andhaving a little bit of help on
the journey.
Mary (05:07):
Well, I love that.
You said that people come inand they say they don't know why
they're there.
And you know it can sound likewell, how can you not know why?
Don't you know why you go tothe doctor?
But when you go to the doctoryou just know you don't feel
good, you don't always know whatit is right, yep, yep.
So I think we help them teasethat out.
(05:30):
So that's not something thatreally ended up on sort of our
list of topics today, but Ithink you've brought up a really
good point that people mayhesitate to go because they feel
like they have to go in thereand be clear about what's wrong.
Laura (05:49):
Absolutely.
And you know I tell people allthe time you can just show up
and the way we'll we'll kind ofappear, you know we will help
you find what it is that you'relooking for or seeking.
You don't have to have a clearplan always.
And you know, for me I love toshare, you know, with my clients
(06:11):
that there have been times inmy life that I've I've been in
therapy.
I will probably.
I love therapy.
I think therapy is for everyone.
You know, recently I was eventhinking, you know, maybe I'll
get back into therapy forbalancing, you know, motherhood
and owning a private practice,because really I've just
experienced the benefits oftherapy firsthand and seeing how
(06:35):
really just transformative itcan be, you know, to our lives.
Mary (06:50):
Great point, and I think that brings up this idea that
people may believe that thetherapist is an expert.
And you know, I was trained waylonger time ago than you were,
so I've been doing this work forover three decades and I know
when I started there was sort ofmore this idea that you're
trained as the expert, and Ithink that's changing.
I think thankfully that'schanging.
I think the client should beempowered to.
(07:13):
You know they have a voice andso one of the things that I
think is beautiful aboutcounseling and therapy, I
believe it's an art, because youand I know that the same client
could walk into either of ouroffices and that session is
going to go in a differentdirection, absolutely yeah.
Laura (07:32):
Totally different, totally different experience, I
think that's beautiful aboutthat too.
I agree and I think somethingyou know we also wanted to talk
about is clients understandingthat and knowing that.
Something I like to saysometimes in session is not
everybody is for everybodyFinding a therapist that feels
like a good fit and you know,that feels like they can really
(07:55):
do some good work with.
Mary (07:57):
Yeah, very important.
I love the idea of theempowerment of a client.
I love the idea of theempowerment of a client and
often when you go to therapy,you're typically not feeling at
the top of your game, so findingthat confidence can be hard,
but it's important, I think, foreveryone to know that it's
(08:19):
their journey and so, while, yes, I think a lot of times we need
to figure out a path through,and we are educators and we are
listeners and all of thosethings, I think of it more as a
partnership.
Yeah, yes, so being able tospeak up like if you, if someone
(08:42):
goes in and this is not everytherapist is good yeah, that is
true too.
Yeah, yeah, just like anyprofession you know exactly so
you can have somebody put a roofon and it leaks, or you can
have, you know, and sometimesthis is very, very personal.
(09:04):
So I know I've gone to medicaldoctors and I've just had a
feeling not, this doesn't evenmean they weren't good at their
craft, but if you don't feelcomfortable, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Laura (09:18):
Yeah, yeah, it's going to be hard to open up and be
vulnerable and all of that.
And knowing that it doesn'tmean that something is wrong
with you.
You know, even bringing up themedical professionals, you know
I'll have clients tell me, well,I just didn't, I didn't feel
right or I didn't feelcomfortable, and that's okay.
That just means that you know,maybe you need to keep going on
(09:41):
your journey, look for someoneelse, somebody that you do
connect with.
And the same thing fortherapists and I feel like good
therapists and you knowtherapists that are working to
help people.
You know, be them best, theirbest selves, and confident is we
.
We want to empower you and wewant to know if something isn't
working and we aren't offended.
If you decide to, you know,start working with someone else
(10:04):
or if you need a littlesomething, that that isn't what
we offer Because, like you said,it is just so different and
personal and I love how youcalled it an art.
That's beautiful.
Mary (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, and it's also, I think, important and very,
very difficult for the client tobe able to recognize.
Are they uncomfortable with theprocess?
Because it is hard to you know.
I call it the junk drawer.
We're going to talk about thismore, but we all have a junk
(10:38):
drawer right when we throw thestuff we don't know what to do
with, and someday it gets toofull and when you open it you're
like holy crap, like look atall this stuff.
So that's sort of what therapyis like, so being able to
differentiate between is it justmy discomfort with sharing or
is it a discomfort with theclinician?
Laura (11:01):
Sure, sure, I love that example too of the junk drawer.
You know something I give oneto my clients.
I'll probably borrow the junkdrawer too, but you know they'll
come in and they'll kind oftalk about how uncomfortable it
is, and I think something wetouched on by email was feeling
that things sometimes feel alittle bit worse before they get
(11:22):
better.
An example I like to give myclients is that they have an old
injury that they have ignoredor overcompensated for or use
substances or other distractionsto cope with.
You know, when they decide togo to physical therapy and start
working on this injury, it'sgoing to hurt, it's not going to
feel good and I think sometimesthat can.
(11:43):
That can help clients,especially because lots of us do
have physical injuries.
We know what that's like, butit can feel very uncomfortable.
Digging some of this up andbecause a lot of it is stuff
that we do, we avoid until wecan't anymore, just like the
junk drawer.
Mary (11:59):
Yeah, and this might be hard to describe on an audio
show, but at one point I saw ameme of a China cabinet, so the
cabinet where the doors areglass in the front so you can
see the plates inside, and astack of plates had fallen so
that they were wedged betweenthe shelf and the door.
(12:22):
So you knew if you opened thosedoors the plates were going to
fall and break.
And I feel like so many of usare that china cabinet that our
stack has fallen and we're likeif I open this freaking door,
it's going to break.
And you know what the saying youhave to break a few eggs to
make an omelet To get to beauty.
(12:45):
Sometimes there's mess and thatis very, very common in therapy
.
Laura (12:52):
Yes, Yep, and we're here to kind of help you clean up
that china cabinet andreorganize and pick up the
pieces with you and we're in themess with you, and I think
that's why this work is just sospecial, because people trust us
to be alongside them in some ofthose moments where everything
is crashing down.
(13:13):
But we're with them and thatconnection is is just a valuable
piece, which is why it's againwhy it's so important.
Mary (13:21):
Well and I think you mentioned this and I want to
highlight it much more thatoften when you go to therapy,
things do feel worse before theyfeel better, and we can liken
it to a physical injury.
When you start to really work amuscle that you haven't because
it's weak, it's going to hurt,and emotional pain for a lot of
(13:43):
people is much more intolerablethan physical pain.
So I think being able toacknowledge that you know, just
for a client to say you knowwhat I want to quit, and then we
can work with that, becausesometimes they leave and you
don't know why, and you knowthat's difficult, because
(14:05):
sometimes you're like oh, I see,cause you know it's as a
therapist, you're hearing them,and then you're surveying the
whole landscape when should I gowith this?
Or you know, helping to clarifywhat's the most important or
what's the most painful.
And you see, okay, I see thatlight.
They might not see it yet, butthe lights at the end of the
tunnel and then they ghost youand you know it's.
(14:30):
It's that's also, I think, partof the process.
Sometimes people aren't ready,and that is okay, but I think I
want us to normalize that.
Laura (14:39):
Sometimes you just feel so yucky when you look in that
junk drawer and you see, oh mygosh, I haven't dealt with this
stuff for years, sure sure, andyou decide to just kind of close
it up again and really, youknow, advocating for people, for
our clients, to have thatconversation with us, and maybe
(15:00):
it is like, all right, this isnot the time.
Or, you know, sometimesfinances are involved, or maybe
it's a scheduling issue, butsometimes it's just too painful,
too much and us knowing that asclinicians, we can work with
our clients, you know what wouldmake this feel better.
You know, maybe we pulled outtoo much junk at once.
(15:23):
Let's, let's refocus onsomething.
Maybe that feels doable and andreally it's a, it's a lifestyle
change and just small, tangiblechanges that you can keep up in
your life.
Mary (15:39):
Yeah, and I think too the idea of when something is really
painful.
Of course we want to pull backfrom that, but you know, for
there to be that sort ofcontainer of'm not sure this is
working for me.
Or, you know, I'll have clientssay to me I like homework.
I'm not typically a homeworkgiver, but I will work with you
(16:15):
if there are things that willhelp you.
You know physical things to dobetween each appointment, but
it's also, I think, thetherapist's job to inform a
client that, okay, we're goingto dig into some stuff and it
might really hurt and you mightbe tempted to not come back.
Or, if there's an issue withmoney, you can tell the truth,
(16:37):
because I'm going to guaranteeyou we've heard it before.
Yes, and that might be anotherone for our list, laura that I
think some people think I'm theonly person that's ever felt
this way.
Laura (16:48):
For sure Nope, and we have heard it all before, and I
think probably my favorite thingabout being a therapist is just
that this is a place where youare not going to be judged.
That unconditional positiveregard that you know is one of
our principles of being atherapist is this is a no
judgment zone.
It is okay and to practicebeing vulnerable and sharing
(17:12):
things that you're uncomfortablewith, like finances.
Mary (17:16):
Yeah, and one of the things that I'm going to kind of
go off on a little tangent hereand I hadn't really intended to
go here, but when we're talkingabout pain and even trauma,
there are a lot of people thatare out there as coaches.
And I am not dissing coachingat all I'm working on a coaching
(17:37):
certification for nutrition butI think, being careful when you
see someone that says they aresomething like a trauma coach or
you know things where reallystrong words like that, and
again, not dissing them becausehopefully they've had training,
but I say hopefully, becausecoaching is unregulated, yes, so
(17:59):
the other thing that I think isdifferent about therapy and
again, I wear both hats, butvery, very clear, clear
boundaries between those tworoles.
But therapists also have what'scalled supervision, which means
if we encounter something wherewe feel like gosh, this is a
lot, I'm not sure sort of whatdirection to go.
(18:21):
Or we have a client that's indistress and maybe they
mentioned wanting to harmthemselves or someone else.
We have other people that we goto.
Laura (18:36):
Yes, and you're absolutely right, and probably
another one of my favoritethings about being a therapist
is having those resources andthose people, those other
therapists, past supervisors,that I can call up and kind of
run things by get a secondopinion or sometimes it's some
reassurance.
But yeah, sometimes there'll bemultiple licensed therapists
(18:59):
helping your therapist work withyou.
Mary (19:03):
There's a network.
If someone is doing the work ofcounseling therapy ethically,
they're part of a network thatthey can turn to.
And again, I want to be clearthat there are some counselors,
therapists, that may not operatein the best way and so, again,
follow your gut if something'snot feeling comfortable or if
(19:27):
you really want to work with acertain gender of therapist, yes
, you know, it is your journeyand you are in many parts of
this.
You're driving the car.
Laura (19:37):
Absolutely and honoring that intuition, which is
something that you talk about alot on your on your podcast and,
I think, so many of my clientsthat I've talked to.
It's either been labeled asanxiety or overthinking, but
when we really dig into it, it'sjust we have this intuition and
learning to listen to it,learning to trust it and, like
you said, following it.
Mary (19:59):
Yeah, and that I love that you mentioned other episodes,
because I do talk about likeessential nature and I think,
with the idea of people womentaking up their space, we often
feel like we don't want tooffend someone, right?
So we don't, we don't use ourvoice, but we have an intuition
(20:19):
and so if you say to yourtherapist, you know, know, I
feel like this isn't working,can the language would be, can
you give me a referral tosomeone else, or if they're
visibly upset with that, thattells you you've made a good
decision absolutely yeah.
Yeah, because it's not firstpersonal and we we know that and
well, and I think the otherthing is, you know, there might
(20:42):
be a situation where maybe I'vetaken someone through part of
their journey and then I mightsay, okay, here's an.
So we have kind of come up withsome coping strategies for you.
You're doing pretty well.
But you have this other issuethat you wanted to address.
I feel like I don't have asmuch knowledge in that area as
(21:02):
so-and-so does, and sometimes wemake the referral.
Laura (21:05):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think it's like part of being, you know, an ethical therapist
is knowing you know this is outof my scope of practice, or I
think I know somebody who wouldbe a better fit and I like how
you said, you know, because ourjourney is ever changing, you
know, and we can be there forpart of it, but really we don't
take any anything personalbecause you know, we know that
(21:29):
even in my own I kind of jokewith clients.
You know, I've said I've beento other therapists and I've
done the intakes and I kind ofsay like, yeah, I mean you
should be shopping, you shouldbe shopping for your therapist.
Meet a couple, see how you feel, see how your body reacts and
remember that you are the clientand this service is for you.
And in this moment I mean we'resending a message, a strong
(21:52):
message to, to our mind, thatI'm putting myself first here
and and that can be really,really, really something that
that our body and mind need tohear.
Mary (22:04):
Yes, very much so, and the other part of, I think,
intuition is that sense ofconnectedness to someone.
There's very clear researchthat the most impactful thing
about therapy is the connectionwith the therapist.
It's not about number one, Yep,it's not about do you use
(22:27):
cognitive therapy, Do you useEMDR, like all of those things
are wonderful tools to have, buthaving that connection and you
know, one of the things I thinkabout is where else do you go?
And for 45 to 55 minutes it isall about you and you can say
whatever you want.
Absolutely so cool.
Laura (22:48):
Absolutely it really is.
And just using it as your timeand you know, I see some teens
sometimes who are a littlereluctant to come into the
therapy room.
You know their parents havekind of said like this is
something that that I want youto do and I love, I love to tell
them this is your time, this isyour space and this is all
(23:08):
about you.
So please and I've, I've hadkids, I've had adults tell me,
you know, if I'm going a certainway or if I'm suggesting a
certain activity that, forwhatever reason we might, we
might investigate it a littlebit, but you're not ready or
comfortable to do, please say so.
Mary (23:26):
This is your time and you bring up a good point.
I haven't worked with youngpeople for a few years.
I used to be a high schoolcounselor for almost 20 years,
so I love working with teenagers.
But when you have a parentbringing a child to you or
anyone under 18, sometimesparents have the idea that
(23:47):
you're going to tell themeverything and you know, isn't
that a challenging conversationto have?
Laura (23:53):
Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, that can be one of the more
challenging ones, and you know,something that I tell parents is
again what you pointed out isit is this relationship that's
the most important.
So you're bringing your childto a trusted professional and we
want them to get out of thiswhat they can.
(24:14):
But a lot of that is respectingtheir privacy, their boundaries
, and I'll have very just, openconversations with my teenagers
especially.
I think this is somethingimportant that maybe we share
with mom or dad or caregiver andthey might say no, you know,
I'm not comfortable with it.
And then from there we caninvestigate why.
(24:34):
Why are we not comfortable?
Or do we need help withcommunication skills, or what is
the barrier to this?
Mary (24:43):
Well, and I know from the work that you do and first of
all I want to let the listenersknow that you do work with a lot
of young people and I have somuch respect for that because
there are so many dynamics atplay.
You might have a kid who hasparents that are divorcing and
then you know you have thatdynamic that a parent wants to
(25:05):
know what they said and parentsthat I mean by rights are very
worried about their kids.
So you not only have to assurethe parents that if there's any
danger to their child you willtell them, but you have to.
You can't help someone if theydon't feel like they can tell
you things in confidence.
Laura (25:25):
Absolutely Yep, and you are so right with the different
dynamics of what makes a familyand who is my client.
And I think just keeping themain focus, a central focus,
helps me in some of those morecomplicated cases who is my
client and what is best for thisclient?
And sometimes having those hardconversations with parents and
(25:48):
them questioning it and ussharing the reason, the research
, what we see, where we see thisgoing and our goals for really
not just their child but thefamily as a whole, oh yeah, yes,
and that's the other thing thatI really admire people who do
family therapy work, because, oh, that is that takes a lot of
(26:09):
energy, a lot.
Mary (26:11):
Yes, you're still young Laura's younger than me, so she
still has the energy.
Laura (26:15):
Yes, I can kind of see, though, how people kind of phase
out of it eventually, or, youknow, and I've kind of learned
how to stack my schedule in away that isn't feeling draining,
so I'll have just like a reallyintense kid session and then
maybe have an adult that I knowwants to sit and talk, so kind
of just mixing it up too.
I enjoy all agents and, as youknow, since you've worked with
(26:37):
younger people too, it's justalso very different, which is
another reason I love this, Ilove this career.
Mary (26:44):
Yeah Well, and often I wish that I had the family there
.
And this brings up one of theother points that we were going
to talk about why do people endup in therapy?
So it's such a buffet ofreasons, but I think that what
we learn early in life, we learnthings to survive and then
(27:05):
often those things stop working.
So this is where I think beingable to get in on the front end,
like with family therapy,because we get to a point often
in our lives and we realizewe're doing a certain thing.
It might be that we are crazilyindependent and to the point
that it's hurting us, or we aretoo dependent.
(27:28):
There could be a lot of thingsand we recognize oh, in my
family I was the caretaker, ormy parents weren't available
emotionally for me, or they hadtheir own mental health issues
and so many of that, and this isa Freudian thing.
So we're not going to go thewhole way down that route, but
we are so informed by not justour nature but how we were, or
(27:52):
were not, nurtured.
Laura (27:54):
Sure, sure, and making that connection can be so
powerful.
Oh, you know, that's why Iisolate when I have feelings of
sadness or anger, you know,because sometimes, you know,
we'll have conversations.
Well, when I was younger and Iwas upset or I cried, I was sent
to my room and the door wasclosed.
And now, as an adult, that'swhat.
(28:15):
That's what we're doing.
We're we're fleeing and we'renot sitting with those feelings
and we believe they're too muchfor other people.
But this isolation now ishurting us.
It's hurting our families, ourpartners, so many things.
But making that connection canjust be so empowering.
Oh, that's why I did that, but,and it served me then.
But it's no longer serving meand I want to learn a new habit,
(28:38):
a new way.
Mary (28:40):
Yeah, and I think people tend to think that's the part of
them that's broken, and I loveto reframe that as no, you did
what you did to survive and Idon't know.
I mean, I think a lot of peopleprobably recognize that their
biggest strength is often theirbiggest weakness.
(29:03):
Yes, yes, so you can beamazingly independent, but that
doesn't mean you're an islandand so you know, I think
reframing, I love positivepsychology because it's looking
at people through theirstrengths and often we just need
to temper or find a differentway to use some of those
(29:24):
survival skills because they'vebecome unhelpful or unhealthy.
Laura (29:31):
Sure, sure, and even you know, befriending or accepting
past versions of ourselves,understanding why we reacted
that way and why we had to, andthat it was a coping skill and
that it kept us safe, and thatwe're that.
We're grateful for it.
Because you know something?
I find a lot of people in thetherapy room.
You know they're either angrythat they have this I keep
(29:53):
thinking of the book no badparts If you're familiar.
Mary (29:56):
I know, yeah, yeah.
Laura (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, but kind of befriending those parts,
learning, learning about themand and knowing that it just
makes us who we are.
But then going back to thatstrengths-based how can we use
this for our betterment?
Mary (30:12):
Yeah, and that is a beautiful way of saying no bad
parts because we sometimes thinkabout, maybe if we were a
teenager that was rebellious, orwe were someone who, again, was
a pleaser I often have, becausenow we have TikTok, we have so
many things where people aremore informed, sometimes for the
(30:34):
better and sometimes for theworse but they'll come in and
say, well, I was a pleaser, okay, well, let's talk about what
that means.
How's it serve you now and howdoes it no longer serve you?
But again, framing it as my God, what a brave kid you were to
make it through, yep, to make itthrough what you did,
absolutely so, in doing yourfamily work.
(30:57):
Wow, like how powerful to startto change the dynamic of the
entire system and I love systemstherapy, but that is a whole
other episode so powerful to dothat work, laura.
Laura (31:12):
Well, thank you, thank you, and I think you know our
clients just make it worth it by.
You know, when we get to seethat transformation and we get
to be with them and I'm going togo back to your China cabinet
example, but you know, when weget to see them, you know, put
their China cabinet backtogether it just really
(31:32):
motivates us as cliniciansbecause it's why we're here.
You know, we want to walkalongside of you and kind of you
know there's a quote that talksabout and I'm going to misquote
it, so I won't even but we'rejust with you while you find
your light.
We can't exactly find it foryou or show it to you, but we're
alongside with you on thejourney.
Mary (31:55):
Yeah, yeah, it's a partnership, for sure, and I
think sort of to segue into, Ibelieve sort of the last bullet
point that we had talked aboutis that no one's ever fixed.
So it's not like all of asudden one day you're going to
arrive at mental health and youwill never have anxiety, you
will never have sadness.
(32:17):
It's an ongoing journey.
Just like we have to payattention to stay physically
healthy, we need to do the samefor mental health.
Laura (32:26):
Absolutely, and a lot of times the transformation it
really is just kind of it's alifestyle change If we want long
lasting results.
Like hey, I'm realizing I neversay no to plans and I'm
overwhelmed and I'm overbookedand I'm always stressed and so
we're going to learn how to setboundaries in here.
But, like you said, thatdoesn't mean that there won't be
(32:46):
situations or people or timesin our lives where that's a
thing again.
But it's like a muscle memorythe more that we do it and it's
just a whole lot of repetitionand staying focused on that end
goal.
This is going to make me feelbetter, advocating for myself
and my own needs, making sure Ilike myself and I want to do
(33:08):
what I'm agreeing to.
That's going to feel good.
And we get to feel that it'smotivating for our clients too,
of like, all right, that feltgood, and now I'm noticing I'm
not doing it and that doesn'tfeel good.
So let me go back here andcontinue.
Mary (33:20):
Yeah, and even being able to say between sessions oh, I
didn't do so well with that goallast week.
That's something to beembarrassed about, cause I think
about.
I love chocolate cake and a lotof the time I can have a bite
or two or none and I'm good.
But you know, sometimes we hita point of life, or it might be
an event, or you know whetherit's you know consuming too much
(33:43):
social media, or it's we had acrisis in our own lives.
We backslide with physicalthings, maybe we stop exercising
for a while, or our healthyeating habits take a dive and we
get off the track.
The same thing happens.
You can have those copingstrategies, but you might either
sort of think, oh, I'm good now, I'm not going to use these,
(34:07):
and then when things get alittle bit rough, it's hard to
get back on that track, and soit's okay to go back to therapy
and say I'm sort of off track.
Laura (34:16):
I spend a lot of time reassuring my clients that there
is no failing at therapy,there's no wrong way to do this,
just showing up exactly as youare.
And if that is, I didn't thinkabout one thing we said last
time and that is okay, and itkind of goes back to this.
You know, what makes this abeautiful relationship is that
(34:37):
this is a no judgment zone, thatwe are viewing you with
unconditional positive regard.
You don't have to beembarrassed to say those things,
but sometimes it does give usthen just a little more
information of you know, maybeyour relationship with shame or
with things not getting done, orI mean we can use it all, so
(34:58):
there's no wrong way to be.
Mary (35:02):
Yeah, and I think too, certain situations are going to
make us feel like we arere-experiencing something.
So I feel like life challengesus to go to the next step.
So maybe there's a newrelationship and you realize, oh
my gosh, I'm enacting thesesame patterns again.
And so you know, I know for me,when I would have big life
(35:24):
changes or losses, that's when Iwould feel like, all right, I'm
going to go back to therapybecause I need to sort of have
somebody else to help me sortthrough this.
Yeah, well, and the other thingtoo we talked, you know, a lot
about this idea of unconditionalpositive regard.
But I'm going to asterisk that,laura, in that that doesn't mean
(35:45):
we're not going to challenge aclient.
Sure, sure, that's how growthhappens.
And you know, as a nature girl,you know the small trees, the
saplings.
They're made to be very bendy,like in the wind they'll bend.
Yep, a big, rigid tree is theone that's going to break or
fall over in a storm.
(36:05):
So being able to sort ofchallenge you to be bendy and go
to the edge of your comfortzone, that's how you're going to
grow.
Laura (36:14):
They're going to be supported and that's why the
work in, because you talkedabout TikTok and I know a lot of
people, you know, I've even hadpeople tell me well, you know,
I just asked AI, what would atherapist tell me?
But a lot of it is theenvironment, the relationship,
(36:35):
like you said, that number onepredictor we have to know that
we're in a safe enough placethat we can bend, and we can
bend but we're not going tobreak.
And I kind of like what yousaid too is you know, we're
these things that we have tolearn.
There was Gabrielle Bernstein.
She is on Instagram, she hassome books that I read, but one
of her main teachings is thatshe says you know, the universe
(36:59):
kind of teaches us things, whatwe need to learn, until we kind
of learn it.
So, whether it's patience orwaiting in the unknown, but
we're going to kind of keepgetting these lessons until we
face them.
Mary (37:12):
Yeah, I say it in a less eloquent way like life will tap
you on the shoulder and then itwill kind of like nudge you with
its elbow.
Then it's going to smack youacross the head and it's all
that.
If we pull that thread it's like, oh, I'm still needing to learn
this, and so that goes back tothe idea that we are never 100%,
(37:33):
always healthy.
They're having ups and downs,backsliding.
That's why we're human.
That happens in nature.
I mean again, probablylisteners are like, oh my God,
she's going to her garden geekplace again.
But you know, there are yearswhere I'll have a plant that
doesn't thrive.
In.
That same plant the next yearlooks great because the
(37:54):
environment that it was in morerain, more sun, whatever was
different.
Laura (37:59):
Absolutely, and you know even the gardening.
There's a visualization that Ilike to talk to with some of my
clients or talk about Sometimesour gardens are flourishing and
they're just doing so well andsometimes it's like I didn't
even put that much work into it.
But lots of times we haveseasons where they're not, or
there's lots of weeds and theyneed a little bit more attention
(38:21):
, and I just love examples thatwe can give our clients, for
them to kind of be reminded whenthey are in nature which we
know is healing in itself that Iwill bloom again and we all
have these seasons, and itreally is the human experience
and as therapists and humans, weare experiencing it too.
Our gardens get dry or weedy orwe need to water them, whatever
(38:46):
it is, but we're living thesame, the same life that you
know.
We are all, all one.
Mary (38:52):
Yeah, Wow, what a beautiful bow to put on this
conversation.
That that was a great way tosum it up, because, yeah, we are
at the end of the day,therapists are people too, and
so one more reason to feel likeas the client be honest, if
something's not connecting oryou need something different, we
are open to that because we are.
(39:13):
Obviously.
We do this work because wewould like people to help heal,
and so we need to know how ourclients are experiencing that.
Laura (39:22):
Yes, absolutely.
And yeah, thank you so much for, for, you know, letting me join
in on this topic andconversation, because just
letting people know that it isokay to advocate for themselves
and to speak up and that theywill be supported.
Mary (39:39):
Yeah, and the one thing that I wanted to make sure that
I highlight here.
So for LPCs which is what weare licensed professional
counselors we are licensed bystate, so we can only work with
clients in the states wherewe're licensed.
You are licensed inPennsylvania and Maryland Yep,
correct, and you do teletherapy,so I do.
(40:00):
We're going to have yourwebsite as part of the show
notes, so if anybody wants toreach out and learn more about
Laura, that information will bethere.
You mentioned GabrielleBernstein and you mentioned no
Bad Parts.
I'm going to have links to thatinformation in the show notes.
Laura (40:18):
Oh perfect.
Mary (40:19):
And thank you so much for taking your time to be here.
This has been so fun to talk toyou.
Laura (40:26):
Yes, thank you Mary for having me.
Yeah, and I think you know Itold you a little bit that I
just love the chance to talk toother mental health
professionals and kind of expandthat network that we talked
about.
Mary (40:37):
Yeah, and I think it's that peek behind the curtain.
I think it can be reallyhelpful because sometimes I take
for granted you know with whatI do, but I know sometimes
people will bring up like, well,I don't even know, like what is
therapy or a new client will bewill be like what happens there
.
So being able to do that withsomeone and discuss and have
sort of chat about it, I thinkis really cool.
(40:59):
And so one of the mostimportant reasons I do this
podcast is because it's awonderfully supportive community
of both women and men thatsupport women taking up their
space in the world and living alife of fulfillment.
And I love to hear from mylisteners.
So please comment, follow ortext me directly using the link
in the show notes.
(41:19):
Reviews are really helpful andlet me know what you thought of
this episode or tell me whatyou'd love to hear about.
Any mental health or wellnesstopic is not off limits.
You can also visit my websiteat maryrothwellnet there's a
link in the show notes to seeall the impactful options I have
to help people find health andwellness and to see all my
(41:41):
podcast episodes in one place.
And, as always, thanks forlistening and until next time,
go out into the world and be theamazing, resilient, vibrant
violet that you are.
Thank you.
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