September 25, 2025 • 69 mins
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What happens when a therapist trained to maintain professional distance decides to share her most vulnerable truths? Kristin Louise Duncombe's story will leave you speechless.
Growing up across continents as a foreign service "brat," Kristin developed a unique perspective as a third culture kid—someone shaped by their parents' culture, their host countries, and the international community surrounding them. But hidden beneath this globe-trotting childhood lay a devastating secret: for over two years, Kristin was sexually abused by a high-ranking US diplomat—her best friend's father.
When multiple children finally came forward with allegations, the State Department's response was chilling. Despite confirming the abuse, they protected the predator, citing diplomatic immunity and effectively silencing victims and their families. Twenty years later, Kristin would discover this same man had been arrested for abusing another child, confirming her worst fears that the government's protection had enabled decades of continued abuse.
What makes this conversation truly remarkable is Kristin's evolving relationship with anger. Despite writing three memoirs about her experiences, she reveals that only after publishing her most recent book "Object" did she fully connect with her rage about what happened. This delayed anger response illuminates how trauma survivors, particularly women, are often socialized to suppress anger and engage in "fawning" behaviors—accommodating others at the expense of their own boundaries and truth.
Through both personal anecdotes and professional insights, Kristin offers a perspective on recognizing fawning responses and reclaiming the right to righteous anger. Her journey from silence to speaking out demonstrates how breaking free from people-pleasing patterns creates space for authentic healing and genuine connection.
Whether you've experienced trauma yourself or simply want to understand how institutional power structures enable abuse, this episode will transform how you think about speaking truth to power. Kristin's courage reminds us that our stories, especially the difficult ones, deserve to be told.
You can find Kristin, her services and her books HERE.
Comments about this episode? Suggestions for a future episode? Email me directly at NSVpodcast@gmail.com.
Follow me on Facebook and Instagram, and check out my website!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey, violets, welcome to theshow.
I'm going to be candid for asecond.
As a therapist, creating apodcast even five years ago
would have seemed unthinkable tome.
(00:48):
I think almost anyone hostingor guesting on a podcast has
moments of uncertainty or evenanxiety about how much of their
own life to share.
Perhaps that's why celebritypodcasts seem to pop up
constantly.
For celebrities, sharingthemselves has always been part
of their working experience.
For regular people, especiallythose of my generation who were
(01:10):
raised in the pre-social mediaera, it can be more than a bit
intimidating.
For a therapist, however, ithas literally been trained out
of me to share about myself, soI had a few extra layers to
navigate.
I've had colleagues who didn'teven have family pictures in
their offices and who wouldn'thave an office in their home in
(01:32):
a million years because privacywas so important.
When I was trained 35 years ago, the model was very much to
share virtually nothing aboutyourself with clients.
It was definitely not like theshow Shrinking, in which Jimmy,
played by Jason Segel, breakspretty much every ethical
barrier imaginable.
But having said that, times havechanged quite a bit.
(01:53):
I have a few theories as to why, but that's a discussion for
another day.
Overall, I think therapy ismore effective when we allow our
clients to know a bit about us,but I guarantee there are some
therapists out there who wouldvehemently disagree.
At the same time, sharingpersonal details about ourselves
in a podcast or a book is quitedifferent than in the therapy
(02:15):
relationship, and it's animportant ethical situation to
navigate correctly.
And then there's the coachingrelationship, which has even
more permeable boundaries.
My guest today, a fellowtherapist, has navigated those
boundaries in a big way.
Kristen Louise Duncombe is atherapist, life coach and
bestselling author.
Her most recent book, object,is a true crime memoir that
(02:37):
exposes how the US governmentprotected a serial pedophile who
abused children for more than30 years before he was finally
arrested.
Kristen specializes in complextrauma and helping women create
the lives they dream of Welcometo no Shrinking Violets.
Kristin (02:53):
Kristin Thank you so much for having me and I love
your introduction because itreally is true having to
navigate that boundary questionbetween the personal and the
professional and the private,etc.
Etc.
(03:13):
Etc.
Yeah.
Mary (03:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, and you know it'sinteresting before we jump in
because I knew you know youcould relate to this.
I also do a weekly newsletterand I've had, I've gotten
clients from that and that'smore.
It's not really I don't talk alot about personal stuff, but a
little bit, and I think it'sinteresting because we've
trained with this idea of you'rea blank slate, they shouldn't
(03:37):
know anything, and that reallysets you up as, I think, a
expert that's too separated.
Think an expert that's tooseparated.
So people, especially now withsocial media, I think they need
to know some things you know andthen that helps them feel like
okay, I think I would resonatewith that person.
Kristin (03:55):
Yes, absolutely.
Mary (03:57):
So I know we're going to eventually talk about your book
and I can't wait.
Yes, but from what I havepieced together on your website
and on the profile that I read,you've had quite an adventurous
life like both challenging inchallenging ways and like pretty
cool ways.
So can you tell us a little bitof your story up until now and
(04:18):
how that kind of informs whatyou're doing?
Kristin (04:21):
Yes, absolutely so.
Well, I just had my 56thbirthday.
My birthday is August 6th, soI've just finished celebrating.
And in my 56 years, I think thereason you're referring to it
as adventurous this is usuallywhat people hone in on it's the
fact that I've lived all overthe world in many different
(04:43):
countries, and that is becausewhen I was a kid, my father was
a foreign service officer, so Iwas born in Washington DC, but I
grew up in West Africa, inSoutheast Asia.
We lived in a whole bunch ofdifferent countries, in fact I
can just list them.
We moved to the Ivory Coastwhen I was just short of my 10th
(05:04):
birthday, lived there for fouryears.
Then we moved to Cairo, egypt,then to New Delhi, india, then
to Jakarta, indonesia, and thenI moved to the States for
college.
I went to college inMassachusetts.
After college I worked inSeattle for a few years.
Meanwhile my mom and dad wereback in West Africa, in Nigeria,
(05:27):
and then I went to graduateschool in New Orleans, louisiana
.
And while I was in New Orleansin fact I had been there for all
of a day or two I met a guy.
A day or two I met a guy.
(05:56):
He is an Argentinian medical,humanitarian, research scientist
and fell madly in love.
And at that time he had acareer with Doctors Without
Borders and was slated to goback on mission in East Africa.
And so, as someone who hadalready spent my life moving
around, I didn't hesitate whenhe's like do you want to come
with me?
And I'm like yep, absolutely so.
(06:17):
Next thing I know I'm gettingmarried and going off to Nairobi
, kenya, with this man, and welived together in East Africa
for five years.
We lived in Nairobi for twoyears and in Kampala, uganda
Well, two and a half in Nairobi,two and a half in Kampala,
uganda and then moved to Paris,where I currently live.
(06:39):
But we lived in Paris for 10years.
Then we moved down south toLyon, france, then from Lyon we
moved to Geneva and then I movedback to Paris two years ago.
So that has been sort of mycomplicated geographic
trajectory.
Wow, and along the way I havebuilt my career as a therapist
(07:04):
and I've had my two children.
I have built my career as atherapist and I've had my two
children.
I have two children.
My daughter is 26.
She was born in Nairobi.
My son is 20.
He was born in Paris.
As you know, I have twogeriatric cats Because, for the
(07:25):
listeners, we were supposed tohave done this podcast a couple
of months ago, but one of mycats got sick and Mary very
kindly agreed to reschedulebecause I was taking care of
Olive, her name is Olive.
Yes, olive, yes, and so let'ssee now.
And now the yowling is starting.
She heard her name.
I hope that that doesn't getpicked up by the mic.
I hope that that doesn't getpicked up by the mic.
(07:47):
Yes, so in fact, now I'vestarted rambling about my
trajectory and with Olive'syowling I think I've derailed my
own thought process.
What was I trying to tell you?
Mary (07:57):
Okay.
Well, let's hit the pausebutton on where this is going,
because I'm having worked ineducation all my life.
I've seen a lot of studentscome and go.
I worked at Penn State for eightyears a lot of international
students, people coming from faraway, when you were growing up
in that life and I know there'sa dark side to what happened as
(08:18):
part of that, but let's parkthat to the side for a second.
Growing up and traveling likethat as a kid did you like it?
Did you like?
What was that like for you?
Kristin (08:30):
Well, you know it's so interesting because that is a
question that often gets askedof kids that are growing up like
that.
But when you ask a kid, whoselife, is that what it's like?
I mean like that, that's,that's the water that they swim
(08:52):
in.
So they don't know anythingdifferent.
So I did enjoy my childhood.
I did, you know, like any kidthat has to move around
frequently.
There was some hardship there.
You know it's hard to be new,it's hard to leave a place and
friends that you're attached to,and especially that was before
(09:13):
the age of social media.
So it's not like people wereable to keep in touch the way
people are nowadays.
But no, while I was living itit was just normal life, you
know.
You especially, you know I wentto international school.
So I was in school with kidsfrom all over the world also
(09:33):
some American kids, but kidsfrom from every place that were
all living that same way.
You know there's a term whichyou may or may not be familiar
with.
For people like us, it's thirdculture kids.
Do you know that expression?
Third culture kids?
So third culture kids, or TCKsas the abbreviation is, is
(09:56):
actually a super usefulreference.
Third culture kid refers topeople like myself or and then.
I'll transpose that same modelto my kids, who are also third
culture kids, but whosebackground is somehow different
than mine.
So both of my parents wereAmericans, are American citizens
(10:18):
, but because we grew upoverseas, what makes me a third
culture kid is the first cultureis the culture of the family.
The second culture is theculture or cultures of the
countries that you live in.
And the third culture is thecommon sub-community, the
(10:43):
culture of the sub-community offellow international expats that
you circulate with, that havethat same type of life, ie
parents from one place movingfrom country to country.
And then the third culturebeing the place where we meet,
culture being the place where wemeet.
(11:05):
So my children, for example Ithink I mentioned this to you
before we started recording, orwas were we already?
Yeah, we were already recording.
So my husband is Argentinian,my, my, the father of my
children is Argentinian.
So my children have an Americanmom, an Argentinian dad.
So they've already got twocultures at home.
(11:28):
They my daughter, was born inNairobi, my son was born in
Paris, and then they grew upbetween, you know, east Africa,
france and Switzerland, and theygrew up with other kids that
circulate in that internationalcommunity.
So, though, culturally.
(11:50):
My kids and I have come from adifferent background because I'm
from a monocultural family oforigin and they're from a
bicultural family of origin.
We are both third culture kidsand it's really, really
interesting.
You'll appreciate this as atherapist, because some of the
(12:10):
difficulties we used to have inour family life with my now
ex-husband is is that we had abig cultural difference.
He is monocultural Argentinian,he grew up in Argentina, he
lived there until he was 26years old and where, as an adult
(12:32):
, he has become a veryinternational person because
he's had a very interesting andrich international career.
He is very firmly rooted in hisArgentinian roots and the
reason I'm mentioning that youknow if he was here he would
disagree.
I often felt an absence ofempathy for some of the issues
(12:56):
that come along with the thirdculture experience.
For example, you know you askedif I enjoyed my childhood.
Well, I very much did, but whenI was a grown up trying to
establish my own adult life,which what quickly became an
evident problem was myrootlessness.
(13:18):
I didn't have a home base and Ineeded one.
You know that might not be thesame for everyone, but for me it
was something I needed.
I needed roots and the reasonI'm in Paris today is because
that was one of the originalbattles I had in my marriage my
(13:39):
now defunct marriage, if I cancall it that, because we're no
longer together, but we arestill friends.
But this is a great example.
You know, he and I would say tohim you have your past, you
still have access to it.
You're from a small city inArgentina.
Your entire family still livesthere, within a one kilometer
(14:03):
radius.
We go back every year andeverything that you came from is
consolidated there.
And so for you, because youknow, he wanted to keep
traveling the world, here there,changing every year, every two
years.
And early on in our marriage Irealized this is not what I want
(14:26):
.
I don't want to keep livinglike this.
And he couldn't understand whatmy problem was because he would
say you, of all people, you'reso international.
You spent your whole lifemoving around and that's what
you know.
(14:46):
I thought I was getting fromyou someone that can adapt and
I'm like, yeah, but don'tconfuse the things.
I can adapt, I just don't wantto.
I want a home base.
Mary (15:00):
Yeah, that's an important distinction.
Kristin (15:02):
Yes, and that is how we ended up having our little home
in Paris, the one that I'm inright now, because you know, I
had to fight tooth and nail forus to establish a home base
someplace.
Yeah, yeah.
Mary (15:18):
Yeah Well, I don't know a lot about.
I mean, you wrote three books,right?
Kristin (15:23):
Yes, I've written three books, yes.
Mary (15:26):
And it feels like and you can correct me if I'm wrong but
they sort of grew out of yourprocessing of things.
Kristin (15:34):
Yes, absolutely yeah.
So just for some moreterminology.
So I was talking about being athird culture kid, being a third
culture kid.
So my first book is calledTrailing, and trailing is a
tongue in cheek term for thetrailing spouse.
(15:54):
That's kind of considered notlike a very politically correct
way to say it any longer.
Now people like to sayaccompanying spouse, but I say
trailing spouse because, as Isaid, it's tongue in cheek, plus
that's the terminology I grewup with.
My mom was a trailing spouse.
This trailing spouse is the onewho follows the career spouse
(16:17):
and though, you know, in 2025,especially as careers more
careers are remote, I think it'seasier now for married couples
to be able to move off someplaceand both people be able to keep
their professional identity andexistence alive.
But you know, even 30 years ago, when I got married, that
(16:44):
decision that I made to followmy Doctors Without Borders
husband meant that I had to giveup my plans, and my plans were
to get my degree in clinicalsocial work and in public health
, and I did get my degrees, butI wanted to set up a practice in
(17:05):
the United States and, becauseI had traveled so much, I wanted
to just sort of like, have aneasy life and you know, have my
practice, you know you seethings a certain way.
I didn't have it all mapped out, but what I didn't anticipate
was getting married instead andtrailing this guy off to the
front lines of disaster anddisease.
(17:27):
His career and I say it withhonest admiration super
admirable work, extremelyinteresting work.
I mean he was the medicalcoordinator for the Doctors
Without Borders France operationbased in Nairobi, but they were
working in Sudan and Somalia,all over Kenya.
(17:51):
There was famines, there wasepidemics, there was, you know,
there was so many differenttragedies happening, one after
the other, and so I mean he wasnever there.
We landed in Nairobi and he hitthe ground running.
(18:11):
He was so busy, we lived withthe team, they were all super
busy and I was there emptyhanded.
I was the trailing spouse withno idea how to, as I write about
in my book, how to start a lifeout of thin air.
Yeah, as an MSF spouse was sodifferent from my life as an
(18:47):
embassy brat kid.
I mean, when you move aroundwith the embassy there's lots of
creature comforts.
When I moved around as a spousewith Doctors Without Borders,
there was no comforts and it wasa major adjustment.
And it's not because I'm justsuch a prima donna that I needed
(19:10):
to, you know, have someonefanning and massaging me.
But like I didn't have accessto transport, I didn't have a
telephone and it was difficultto figure out how to get my life
going without logisticalsupport.
Mary (19:27):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
So then your second book.
What journey did that sort ofdetail for you?
Kristin (19:38):
Well, my second book is called Five Flights Up, and
Five Flights Up actually refersto the five literal flights up
the 98 stairs of the apartmentthat I very brattly insisted
(19:59):
that we move into when myhusband forced me quote unquote
to become a trailing spouseagain.
So I'll have to backtrack tothe first book, so what?
And taking it all back to notbeing a shrinking violet, those
years in East Africa were very,very difficult.
(20:20):
It was super difficult to be atrailing spouse.
We were violently carjacked andI was, as a result, extremely
traumatized.
We got kidnapped by armedgunmen and I did not recover
well from that.
We had lots and lots ofproblems.
Book trailing ends with thediscovery that my husband is
(20:45):
having an affair with hiscolleague.
These are all true facts and Ipacked up my daughter, who was
two years old, and I left.
I was no longer a shrinkingviolet, literally.
I basically, and I took myduffel, I got my daughter in one
arm, a duffel bag in the other,and I left our life in Uganda
(21:07):
overnight and then set up mylife here in Paris.
After about six months we didget back together and went on to
have, you know, almost sixyears later, our second child.
But the second book has to dowith the fact that after 10
(21:29):
happy years in Paris you know,paris was the place that I told
you I fought to have a home basehe was offered a job in Lyon,
france, that he really wanted totake, and he just assumed that
(21:50):
of course I would think it wasgreat and that we would all go
off together.
And I was like forget it.
After what happened the lasttime, you know, I gave up my
life for you and then I almostlost my life in the carjacking
and I had to work so hard to geton my feet professionally and
(22:14):
I've always been a career mindedperson.
And now here I am in Paris.
I have a great professionalexistence.
I was the counselor.
You were mentioning that.
You were at Penn State, was itso?
I was the counselor at theAmerican University of Paris.
I had a great private practice.
I was very, very happy.
My kids, you know justeverything.
(22:36):
I had my whole great littlelife.
And then he wanted me to uprootagain and follow him on his new
job.
And so this time and this iswhat the book is about since I
was no longer a shrinking violet, I said no, I said I'm not
going.
I'm sorry.
You know it's a two hour train,high speed trains in France and
(22:59):
in Europe.
I said it's a two hour train.
We can have a commuter marriagemodel.
Many people do it.
We can do it too, because I amnot giving up my little
existence here in Paris.
I'm happy, I'm settled, andthat's it.
So for 18 months he was in Lyonand I stayed in Paris with the
(23:22):
kids.
I mean, it was great.
And so part of the book is abouthow I loved that new marriage
model.
I in fact found it injectedgood, new energy into our
relationship.
But he didn't like it, and soafter a while he said well, if
you're not going to move, I'mgoing to move back to Paris.
And that is what lit the fireunder my feet, because when he
(23:47):
left his job in Paris for thisother job in Lyon, it was for a
much better salary, much betterconditions, and so I was like,
okay, I'll move, and so.
But I insisted, since you'reforcing me to do this, I get to
choose the apartment.
And I chose an apartment thatturned out to be very, very
(24:08):
impractical.
I fell in love with it becauseit was the old world, beautiful,
but it was five flights up.
And those five flights became ametaphor for and this is what
the book is about trusting again, like really trusting again
after infidelity.
Because I didn't trust him.
I mean, I forgave him and Itook him back for the sake of
(24:35):
having our couple's life and ourfamily life.
But when push came to shove andhe wanted me to move again,
that's when the trust issuesreally reared their head and I
was like what am I doing tomyself Again, giving up all of
my stability for someone who'salready proven to me that he
cheats on me, and verycarelessly.
(24:55):
You know he had a very publicaffair, so it was about that.
That was part of the fiveflights up.
But the five flights up themetaphor is also about what it
means to raise foreign childrenin France.
(25:25):
Maybe know French culture,french culture which is, you
know, very famous.
Everyone knows something aboutFrench culture and the food, and
France is a wonderful place tolive.
I am not saying any of this ina complaining way, because every
day I'm grateful that I get tolive in France, but it is a very
particular culture.
The French are very, very judgyand judgmental and there is
very pedantic.
There is the French way thatyou do things and anything that
(25:48):
deviates from that is suspect.
And so, being an American momraising kids, you know who have
the American mom and theArgentinian dad.
We did so many things that wereoften treated with suspicion,
like, just to give one littleexample, I mean when I say
(26:09):
suspicion it's not nothing withlife or death implications, but
imagine you throw your kid'sbirthday party and you know the
kids pile in and you know youprepare things the way you would
have thought a kid's birthdayparty should go, based on your
own cultural references.
And then you've got all theselittle French kids there
(26:29):
complaining about frosting Idon't eat frosting.
Or you know things like that.
Or like, like you know, just Imean so many like my daughter,
she's, I mean.
And the kids, you know thingslike that.
Or like you know, just I meanso many like my daughter, she's,
I mean.
And the kids, you know,depending on their age, they go
through different reactions tohow their parents present.
(26:53):
But there would be certainmoments in time when my daughter
we'd be walking to school andshe'd say Mom, stop shouting
bonjour to everyone, don't yousee the French moms don't act
like that.
Because I'd be walking downthere going bonjour, ça va, oui,
bonjour.
You know just like, hey, howyou doing, and you know, the
(27:13):
truth is it was so well received.
I've got loads of Frenchfriends and you know I am their
American friend because we arevery different, and so it wasn't
actually a problem.
But for my daughter, who atthat time was nine, it was
extremely embarrassing, you know.
So things like that.
So the book is also about aboutthat.
It's about learning to trustafter infidelity.
(27:35):
It's about raisinginternational kids Raising
international kids in France, avery particular place and it's
also about expanding one's ideaof what makes for solid personal
identity.
(27:56):
Yeah, it's that no shrinkingviolet thing.
It's that no shrinking violetthing.
It's like, okay, how can I feelgood about my life in spite of
these areas of insecurity and inspite of, yeah, having to make
some sacrifices againprofessionally?
Mary (28:16):
Yeah, yeah, so really it seems like those two books
you're sort of.
It's almost like as maybe youjournaled, like you started.
It sort of came out of thisidea of documenting and then how
can I pull this together intothis?
Really, they sound like amazingmemoirs.
Kristin (28:35):
Yes, they are memoirs and you want to know.
It's really interesting to loopback to what we started with
with your introduction.
So, in all honesty, they didn'tstart out as journals only
because, even though journalingI do think is a great thing,
I've never been a journaler,even though I'm a writer, I'm
just not a journaler.
(28:56):
My books did not stem fromjournaling, but what they did
stem from was the desire toshare the universal, because I
find, in terms of that thingthat you started out with about
you know, when you're atherapist and you're supposed to
(29:17):
have a blank slate and or atleast that's what they teach you
in graduate school that never,ever worked for me.
I've seen therapists wherethey're like you can know
nothing about me and it justdoesn't work for me.
I do want to know who I'mtalking to and of course, I
don't ever want to be thetherapist or be in therapy with
(29:41):
a therapist who's going tomonopolize about their own life.
But I don't have any problemsaying, yeah, in my experience
such and such thing, or in myand how I really found my
professional footing in when Ifinally landed here in Paris was
by going around talking togroups about being a trailing
(30:05):
spouse, and also about raisingthird culture kids.
And you know those were suchbig topics that are salient in
the expat community that thosediscussions morphed into the
storytelling of what became mybooks.
Mary (30:30):
So you mentioned, you know , the carjacking, which sounds
so traumatic, but I think abouttrauma.
You had trauma early and italmost seems like the third book
is.
You worked your way up to thatright, Because this is sounds
like from what I know and I wantyou to share with us.
Sounds like this was reallyexposing some things that people
(30:55):
, at one point especially, didnot want to be exposed.
You were a child experiencing.
Kristin (31:02):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly, and so that that, yeah, okay,
let me.
So let me back up because it'sreally really fascinating.
So my third book it's calledobject, object, as in feeling
like an object.
Although it's so interesting,some people thought the way they
(31:22):
interpreted the word.
Object is I object, like Iobject to the sexual
objectification of children,which is true I do.
Object in the book is not in myfirst two books.
(31:46):
It's so much in my first twobooks because both of my first
two books explore the questionof who am I in relationship to
this man, my husband, whoseexistence is determining what
(32:11):
happens in my life, and I am notblaming him for that.
Just to be clear.
This is not about assigningblame, but to leap ahead to my
third book.
So when I was 10 years old, myfamily had recently moved, as I
(32:31):
mentioned, to the Ivory Coast.
One of the senior members ofthe US Embassy diplomatic staff,
he was a senior member of USAIDwhich, as you know, has
recently been dismantled byDonald Trump.
And no, I did not agree withthe dismantling of USAID, but I
(32:52):
do have some bones to pick withthe USAID administration because
of the story I'm about to tellyou.
One of the senior members ofUSAID, unbeknownst, it seems, to
anyone on the ground in theIvory Coast, was a rampant and
(33:12):
serial pedophile.
He was also my best friend'sfather.
So, as I mentioned, you knowthird culture kid, I went to the
International School of Abidjan.
Abidjan at the time was thecapital of the Ivory Coast, so
our fathers were at the embassy,us kids went to the
(33:36):
International School.
I'll show you her picturebecause I I dedicated the book
to her.
So this, this is me.
Can you see that?
that's that's me and that was mybest friend, rose and and I
have the the family's blessingto be telling this story.
So, and that's why the book isdedicated to her, that's why her
(33:58):
pictures in it, because, as shesays and I write about this in
the book owning what her fatherdid is is part of her healing.
It's not taking responsibilityfor it, but there's no denial
there, because what happened isis that, um, my path crossed
with this man.
(34:19):
His name was mr mul Mulcahy.
He's dead now, but for two anda half years, through multiple
sleepovers at Rose's house,family gatherings you know we
would spend Thanksgiving andChristmas together because our
parents were really good friendsRegular weekend outings to the
(34:45):
beach and to the pool I mean,I've spent a lot of time with
that family.
Mr Mulcahy sexually molested meand to talk a little bit about
trauma and I always think thatthis is an interesting example
you mentioned the trauma of thecarjacking.
As you know, when you getchased down the road by armed
(35:07):
gunmen and you know they attemptto kidnap you and they beat up
your husband and all of thatstuff, that's what we would call
acute trauma.
But what happened to me as achild between the ages of 10 and
12 with Mr Mulcahy, this jolly,convivial, really nice guy who
(35:29):
was very popular in thecommunity and everyone loved him
, me included, and he was alwaysbuying you know ice cream and
presents and he was the fun dad.
That is a different type oftrauma.
That is what we would callcomplex trauma, because the
relationship I had with him andthe things that he did to me
(35:53):
messed so in such asophisticated, insidious way
with my self-image, my capacityto trust, my induction into
sexual feelings before I wasready and knew what to do with
them.
(36:13):
It created a big developmentalwound, and so it's that type of
trauma that you know, as youknow, that we call complex
trauma.
But then, to add insult toinjury and this is the reason I
wrote this book and this is whatI want people to know and, by
(36:35):
the way, tomorrow is theone-year anniversary that I
released the book, and in thisyear since the book has come out
, so many important things havehappened related to what I'm
about to tell you.
So, first of all, I thought thatI was the only one having this
(36:57):
sort of icky secret, having thissort of icky secret,
uncomfortable, scaryrelationship with Mr Mulcahy.
However, all of a sudden and Iwrite about this in the book the
family was whisked back toWashington.
We were told that, you know, mrMulcahy had gotten a promotion.
It was only after the familywas gone that the parents were
(37:20):
informed that actually there hadbeen an allegation made by
another kid in the communitythat he had molested her in the
swimming pool.
And it was that moment thatparents all around the community
, my own included, sat kids downto say this terrible rumor is
(37:41):
going around about Mr Mulcahy.
Isn't it awful Such a kind man?
And one by one, kids all aroundthe community were saying well,
no, it's true, it happened tome too.
And the community launched intothe most massive community
(38:03):
crisis you can imagine, becausethis was really like the
community grandfather.
He used to babysit kids.
You know, he was this niceCatholic guy, yeah, yeah.
(38:47):
And so suddenly, what everyonebelieved had been the reality of
, you know, mr Wonderful MrMulcahy, it was all went up in
smoke and an investigation waslaunched by the State Department
and it was all confirmed yes,indeed, he is a child molester.
He molested all of thesechildren in the in the cohort
from the embassy in the IvoryCoast, there were seven of us
kids.
And about six months after hewas sent back to Washington and
the investigation was conducted.
Then the word came fromWashington that the case was
closed, he was not going to losehis job and he was not going to
(39:08):
be prosecuted, that MrMulcahy's civil liberties needed
to be protected because he haddiplomatic immunity and at the
time at least, there was nofederal law against pedophilia.
So it was as though no crimehad even happened.
And so, of course, the parents.
(39:30):
You know there was anotheruproar, but I mean, imagine this
was the early 80s.
There was no internet, therewasn't easy long distance phone,
this was all happening by cabletelegram.
But basically the statedepartment silenced the parents
(39:55):
who were trying to defend theirchildren who had been victims to
this man, and the statedepartment washed their hands of
it and said it's time to moveon.
Everyone shut up and get backto work.
And that is what happened.
Wow, yes, that is what happened.
And then I mean, many otherthings happened, but just for
the sake of telling you aboutthe cover-up, so that it all
(40:19):
blew up like that when I was 12.
The cover-up, so that it allblew up like that when I was 12.
When I was 22, I had just movedto Seattle, washington, and I
was having a lot of mentalhealth problems all ultimately
related back to the abuse.
You know I had developed aneating disorder.
I had developed binge drinkingdisorder Just you know.
(40:39):
So much of the sequelae that'spretty typical for abuse victims
.
I was like a classic textbookexample of that, although of
course I had no insight aboutthat.
It was like just stumbling inthe dark after that.
But I was having a series ofmental health problems got into.
A date rape situation ended upin counseling at a place called
(41:03):
the Sexual Assault Center.
And when I poured out the wholestory of what had happened to me
, my counselor insisted that weget in touch with the State
Department and say that they hadto pay for therapy.
And surprise, surprise, all ittook was filling out the
paperwork, one tort claim and,next thing you know, they sent
(41:24):
me $20,000 to pay for therapy.
This was in 1992.
I thought I was rich.
I was 22 years old.
I got this check for 20,000bucks.
I honestly thought that I hadhit the jackpot.
I see now how measly andinappropriate that sum is, even
(41:45):
at the time.
I mean, I remember my therapysessions cost $86.
And you know, the point is itwas inadequate and I had signed
on the dotted line that I wouldnot bother them anymore.
So it was a very naive thingthat I did.
I would not bother them anymore.
So it was a very naive thingthat I did.
That was when I was 22.
When I was 32, living here inParis, I had my little daughter
(42:10):
she was four at the time, hadalready gotten back together
with my husband after his affair, and all of that, someone that
was also one of the victims backin the Ivory Coast found me on
the internet and she wrote to meand said is this the same
Kristen Duntham that lived inthe Ivory Coast?
(42:30):
Blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
Yes, it is.
Oh my gosh, how are you?
It's so great to hear from you.
Blah, blah, blah.
And she said and this is all inthe book, by the way.
But she said so much to catchup about, but right now there's
something more urgent that Ineed to share with you.
Please see click this link.
So I click the link and it's anarticle published by the Boston
(43:15):
Herald and the headline isex-foreign service officer
turned Eucharist ministerarrested for rape of
eight-year-old girl on Cape Cod,massachusetts.
And it was Mr Mulcahy.
This big picture of him, all ofhis hair gone white, but
otherwise identical to 22 yearsearlier.
So then you know, it was justsuch a horrible, horrible
reality.
(43:36):
Not that I had ever thought that, like I never, ever thought, oh
well, you know, he got sentback to Washington and so then
he changed and I knew, of coursehe continued molesting people,
but it was one of those thingsthat I think that as a child I
(43:59):
felt so powerless, that I thinkthat as a child I felt so
powerless.
And then the way it all gothandled by the State Department,
there was this whole aspect ofmy life and this thing that had
happened, that had just beentotally walled off and I just I
had never.
I mean, I think about this alot like.
I mean I think about this a lotLike, yeah, why did I?
(44:39):
In all those 22 years I can sayit's hard for me to explain
exactly how that works, but butwhen that happened, I um got in
touch with the investigativeteam on cape kite I got there
was there was a whole reunion ofvictims and the mulcahy
(45:01):
children who had all also beenvictims and there was a statute
of limitations so many of usweren't able to testify but we
were able to submit depositionsand so many kids emerged from
the woodwork that he hadmolested and raped in those 22
(45:22):
years.
And there's also suspicion thatin the years prior to when my
path crossed with him that youknow, prior to the Ivory Coast,
he had been in Vietnam and thePhilippines and there is, of
course, suspicion that he hadvictimized many people in those
countries.
So it's just awful yeah.
Mary (45:47):
So when you I think it was when you started talking about
the $20,000, that's when thequestion popped into my mind
when did you get mad?
When did you really get angry?
Kristin (45:59):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Yeah, you know, I honestlythink this is going to maybe
sound crazy, but it's reallyfascinating, I so I mentioned
that this book came out a yearago tomorrow, I thought when I
(46:26):
wrote the book and as I wasgetting ready to release it, I
thought like that was the work,I had done the work.
What I have realized in thislast year is now the work is
happening, because now I'mreally fucking furious.
(46:47):
It's now it's like I think thatuntil I literally released this
book, I think I was stillholding my breath, and it's only
been in this last year throughconversations like this and
going around speaking to peopleand being vocal, you know, on
(47:09):
Instagram and on Facebook andany chance I get to say, a
middle-aged man sexuallymolested a 10, 11, and
12-year-old girl and I wasn'tthe only one on a regular basis
and that was consideredacceptable to the powers that be
(47:29):
, and it's still like that.
So my real anger is now.
However, the thing that got meorganized to sit down and start
writing this book organized tosit down and start writing this
(47:53):
book and so this was a flash ofanger was when I heard the Larry
Nassar story.
That's, lee's ball doctor ofUSA Gymnastics, who had so many
girls had reported him and hehad been protected by his
employer and you know I havesince learned the language for
(48:17):
these things that is calledinstitutional collusion, and so
that was an initial flash ofextreme anger that I felt, like
many women, and I try to avoid.
I don't want to alienate anyonebecause I know that there are
differing opinions about this,but I do have to say I was also
(48:39):
extremely triggered during theBrett Kavanaugh hearings.
I do believe Christine BlaseyFord and I have in my own life
of repeat victimizations.
After you know my childhoodabuse, I had been in several
(49:04):
date rape situations like theone that she describes.
Date rape situations like theone that she describes and, yeah
, the fact that he is, you know,and Clarence Thomas, just all
of it.
Trump grab him by the pussy,just all that crap.
Mary (49:51):
I'm so sick of it.
I'm so sick of it so I'm prettyangry now.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's been something that'scome up often on this show, the
idea of women in anger, and Ithink the times I'm pretty in
touch with my anger my husbandwould tell you and a lot of
times it can be on behalf ofother things Like we won't go
into all of world events rightnow, but it's a difficult time
to remain calm every single day.
But I remember so, working at acollege, you probably have a
higher than average number of,and I'll say, women it can
happen to men too but women thatare assaulted because Because
you have 5,000, you know sameage people, and so working with
(50:12):
girls that had been assaultedwas a monthly I wouldn't say
weekly, but a monthly thing, andoften it would be told in this
very matter of fact, here's whathappened.
Or, you know, it sort of wasshock, like it hadn't set in yet
.
But even after we would worktogether for a while and I would
bring up anger, they're likeI'm not angry and I'm and you
(50:34):
know I'm not going to push intothat Right At that time.
They have to get to it.
But that's when I started torecognize that part of what we
hold in our bodies as trauma isthat, that anger that we have
put somewhere, because it isunacceptable, in the face of all
these things, it's unacceptableto become indignant about what
(50:58):
happened to you and that'sreally shrinking.
And I think that's where andI've said often one of the only
acceptable emotions for men isanger and it's not for women.
So it's this crazy.
We're not in touch with thatpart of us.
And I'm not talking about justgoing out and ranting forever.
(51:19):
That's not helpful either forour physiological well-being.
But I think to be in touch withthat ability to express the
anger and know that you have aright to be angry and then
processing that, because angergrows out of other things.
(51:40):
But we also hold trauma, and wecould have a whole other hour,
I'm sure, on that.
But what the trauma does, whenyou even said you had all these
things happening, you knowdrinking and you know sort of
all the things that happen whenwe're trying to keep that at bay
.
And we don't know till somebodyhelps us see it and we open
(52:02):
what I call the junk drawer andsee all the shit in there and
we're like, oh my God, that'swhy.
But see, it's so interestingthat even now you're saying it's
a year after the book waspublished and I'm connecting to
that strong.
Kristin (52:17):
Oh yeah, I'm still connecting to it and it's so
fascinating.
Let me tell you, I'd love toshare this little story with you
, because it's funny how Itotally agree with you and I
find myself talking with withclients about this, also about
how you know it's.
It is excellent to be in touchwith your anger, and then what
(52:37):
is the most useful is if you canfigure out how to express anger
constructively so that youdon't lose your audience.
But what I was going to say isit just lose your audience.
But what I was going to say isit just, it's continued to
surprise me this year to see howI have, I guess, changed with
(52:58):
anger as the motor.
And so here's the little storythat I was going to share with
you.
So I mean, I've been single forseveral years now, single by
choice, you know, maybe a littledate here and there, but I just
haven't found any one thatreally suits my fancy and I
(53:19):
would rather, you know, be athome with a book.
But this past winter I did datesomeone for a few weeks,
someone that I thought, oh, Ididn't think, oh, this is the
one I don't really believe in,that the one thing.
But I did think, oh, this issomeone that I think I would
like to get to know this manmore.
And, wow, this is a really nicesurprise to meet this person,
(53:42):
who is a little bit older thanme he's 58 and just seemed like
a really good guy.
And he is a good guy.
I'm not going to try to turnhim into a demon.
However and here's the angerpart we were walking down the
road one day just chit-chattingabout this, that and the other,
and you might be aware that ayear ago this summer, the
(54:05):
Olympics were held here in Paris, and so we arrived at the big
Olympic rings and we weretalking about the games.
I hadn't known him at the timeand I told him how I had gotten
out of town, because I hatecrowds, but he told me that he
had participated in the Olympicsand seen, you know, gone to see
this, that and the other thing,and then he goes.
(54:26):
Yeah, it was great, but theonly thing I regret so much is
that I didn't get a chance tosee women's volleyball.
They're sad and I just knew whathe was going to say.
And I just looked at him andhe's like, because the uniforms,
(54:47):
they're, you know.
And I was just looking at himand he's like because the
uniforms there, you know, and Iwas just looking at him and he's
like, and I think he thoughtthat like I couldn't understand
what he was.
He's like, you know, they're sosexy.
And I said I'm like what's thepoint?
He's like, what do you mean?
What's the point?
He's like totally didn't getwhat I was talking about and I'm
(55:09):
like why are you telling methat?
And I was pissed and he's likewhat he's like?
They're so beautiful, they'reso sexy.
And I'm like so you're this58-year-old dude who likes to
gawk at young women and you'rebragging to me about it and
we're out on a date and like,don't you see what is wrong with
(55:36):
that?
And then, of course, he went offinto his speech about how, you
know, you can't even sayanyone's beautiful any longer.
It was such a turnoff and Ithought about it and thought
about, I mean, we resolved thediscussion in the moment and
moved on from it, but thatrelationship eventually ended
and that was one of the reasonsfor me, because I understand,
(55:58):
you know, if you're of a certaingeneration and you haven't been
educated about these things andif you're, you know, sort of a
typical entitled guy, you don'tmaybe think about those things.
But what really pissed me offabout him is that he wasn't even
interested in looking at hisown sexism.
(56:19):
But the reason I'm telling youthis story is I think that had
that happened to me a yearearlier, I would have, even
though it would have made mefeel bad and it would have made
me think, god, what is wrongwith?
Mary (56:33):
you.
Kristin (56:34):
I would have probably just been like, I wouldn't have
expressed my anger.
Yeah, I said to him, was.
I'm like are you aware thatthose sexy uniforms that that
actually women athletes havebeen in a whole what's the word?
(56:55):
There's been a whole issue andthey have been trying to
negotiate not having to wearthose sexist costumes, like do
you know?
Of course, I mean, do you wouldthat have made?
And I've asked myself, like,would you would?
Would someone else have gottenmad about that?
Mary (57:13):
too.
Yeah, I think, pointing outthat there was a time where you
would have just been like andfiled it away, versus, you know,
in a, in a relationship, thatyou think you're building
something potentially, I thinkit's really important to draw
that line as strongly as youneed to draw it then, yeah,
(57:34):
because.
But in other situations I thinkabout what's the outcome gonna
be, and I don't think you shouldever stay silent because you
just think that's what you haveto do.
But I think sometimes there'sstrategic silence and there's.
You know, there are frameworksthat people grow up in and you
said it, they have no idea Likewe can express it, and then it
(57:58):
becomes oh, you're just beingwhatever.
No, actually you need toquestion your framework and I
think you know sometimes it's towhat end.
But I think other times, whenit's a personal relationship or
potentially somebody that youknow you're growing with or you
(58:18):
think you might, then that is,if he would have been like wait
a second, tell me more aboutthat.
You know.
Kristin (58:26):
Yeah, that's what he would have been forgiven
instantly.
Like are you, are youinterested in learning from
women?
And that's what I am, you know.
Sometimes people ask me.
They're like do you thinkyou're going to be single?
My daughter, she's 26.
She told me just this pastweekend, when I spent the
weekend with her for my birthday, she's like you know, mom, I
(58:49):
think it's so cool that you'resingle, like that you're happily
single, that you know you'resingle but you're not there like
a shrinking violet about it.
You're like having fun in agreat old time.
And and I said, yeah, I mean I,I'm, I'm happy, I am happy.
And she said do you think youever will let someone in again?
(59:09):
And I said, well, I'm totallyopen to it, but I am only open
to a man who is interested inlearning from women.
Mary (59:26):
Yeah, and you also said a little bit bit ago, sometimes
the anger keeps your messagefrom getting across and I think,
yeah, that can be.
You know we have this term,karen, which I've recently
talked about on many episodesand unfortunately for people who
are named karen, but oh my godwe've painted the right, we've
painted righteous anger with thesame brush a lot of times and
(59:50):
that is not caring behavior.
That's basically saying I'mstanding here with my feet apart
like I'm trying to make a pointhere, but I think sometimes,
when this is where the thestereotypical response to
women's anger comes in, it'slike oh, she's hysterical, and
that's where I think the pointcan get missed.
So then we have to navigate.
(01:00:10):
Well, when do I quote,intentionally stay small to get
my message across, and when do Ithrow my arms out and say screw
this?
Like here's what I'm saying,and I think that you know we
have so many things we have tosort of navigate with our
emotions and our stereotypicalmonikers that they give people.
(01:00:32):
And so I think you knowsomebody made a point at one
point I talked about invisiblelabor on one of my episodes,
where it's women take on all ofthese things and men have no
idea, but they themselves aresocialized too.
So where is the line of likethis is socialization.
So I'm going to like try toexplain my position and okay,
(01:00:56):
this is now a choice.
Like you recognize that it'sthis or you won't hear that it's
this and you just want to staystuck because you're not going
to examine that.
So it's a really complex thingsometimes that we are, and
that's where I think we arealways stuck, that you know,
I've had women say to me I didthis thing, that was hard,
(01:01:18):
because I kept thinking of yourshow and I would tell myself no
shrinking violets.
Kristin (01:01:24):
And.
Mary (01:01:25):
I would't want the converse of like sometimes you
strategically choose a path whenmaybe you want to scream your
head off, but it's a strategyand so it's okay to sometimes do
that.
That doesn't mean you're ashrinking violet, it means
you're a smart violet.
Kristin (01:01:41):
Yes, indeed A strategic violet, exactly.
Mary (01:01:45):
I love that story that you told because I think it really
does bring up all of thesethings and when it's a potential
partner, I think they need tosee the degree of upsetness.
Kristin (01:01:57):
Yeah, totally yeah, and you want to know what's so
interesting?
Just to link that anecdote backto the topic of complex trauma.
Topic of complex trauma I thinkthe reason I've turned that
over in my head so much is I'llnever forget the day of that
conversation because of the way,like the way he was looking at
(01:02:18):
me, as though I was like thisunreasonable, mean person for
getting after him, for makingsuch a dumb sexist comment after
him for making such a dumbsexist comment.
And one of the things that Ihave had to work so hard on in
(01:02:39):
my life and I consider this oneof the major pieces of my
recovery from a complex traumais to stop fawning.
And for any listeners out therethat don't know what fawning is
because I think that's reallyonly becoming part of the
(01:02:59):
popular lexicon now is, you know, fawning is the accommodating,
the being nice, the making nice,the acting, pleasing in order
to ensure relational safety.
(01:03:25):
I was extremely uncomfortable, Iwas extremely humiliated and
embarrassed and I didn't like it.
But I would just freeze and lethim do his thing and then, as
soon as he was done, I would goback into acting like nothing
had just happened.
You know, let's go back toplaying Marco Polo.
I mean, five minutes ago youhad your hand in my bathing suit
(01:03:46):
, but now I'm going to playMarco Polo like nothing happened
.
And so many variations on that.
And I think the reason thatparticular anecdote that I just
shared about the you know theuniforms are so sexy really
affected me is because Iunderstood instinctively like,
(01:04:09):
oh, if I want to remain in goodstanding with this guy and have
him still like me and haveeverything still continue on in
the good way that it's going, somaybe I'll have a relationship,
I should be fawning now, Ishould do that thing.
(01:04:32):
I should do that thing, I shouldact like it doesn't affect me
seriously to have this58-year-old dude making comments
about young women who areprofessional athletes and how he
wants to show up to gawk atthem in their skimpy little
outfits that they don't evenwant to wear, but that he
doesn't even know about that.
Because who cares about thepolitics of women's sports?
And you know, either I canaccept that and make nice so I
(01:04:55):
can keep having a relationship,or I can tell him how irritating
and dumb that I thought thatwas and I chose that one.
But it's hard to functiondifferently.
As you know, it's very hard,and I think in that one, but
it's hard to to to functiondifferently, as you know.
Mary (01:05:10):
It's very hard and I think in that situation, when it's a
new potential relationship, wecan sort of default to well, I
don't want to make waves becauseeverything seems to be going
well and it might be this onlything, and I guarantee you, when
you let it go, it's going togrow bigger.
It's going to grow bigger andit's going to be so.
Yeah, I think you bring up agood point and that's, um,
(01:05:31):
probably a future mini episodefor me is talking about not just
fight, flight and freeze, butthat fawn which is much more
complex and we can think aboutwithout getting into details.
You know the p diddy situationoh god, oh my god, there was
that's that's a, really, whenyou think about what happened in
that and how the reaction wasthere was a huge power
(01:05:54):
differential and getting sweptup in that and, yeah, to try, I
fought him too much, I wouldlose the roof over my head.
Kristin (01:06:12):
And you know that.
Just to add, going back to thecover up that the State
Department did See, that's oneof the things that I find most
reprehensible about what theState Department did to all of
their staff who were parents ofvictims, because our parents
fought back to an extent, butour parents' entire lives were
(01:06:38):
controlled by the StateDepartment salary, housing,
schooling for the children, allof it.
And so how much can you fightback against the hand that feeds
you?
Mary (01:06:51):
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It gets very complex and thenyou know the kids are obviously
paying the biggest price.
But yeah.
What, what a story and what um.
So many experiences that youhave.
We are about the same age, soyou've packed a lot of stuff
into your life so many coolthings too.
(01:07:12):
I love that you are living inParis, and so thank you so much
for this conversation.
I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
I think the time flew by thisis probably going to be my
longest episode.
Kristin (01:07:24):
Oh my gosh, yeah Well, and I hope I wasn't too long
winded.
I know I can go blah, blah,blah but thank you so much.
Mary (01:07:30):
So can you first, before I end, where can people find you,
and then I will also link it inthe show notes.
Kristin (01:07:36):
Yes, okay.
So the easiest way to find meis, you know, go on to Google
and type in my name, kristenDuncombe or Kristen Louise
Duncombe.
I use my middle name as well inmy author name, but I have a
website, it's kristenduncombecom.
There you can find everythingabout my practice, about my
books and, yeah, abouteverything.
Mary (01:08:00):
Okay, so I will link it in the show notes.
Kristin (01:08:02):
Yes, thank you so much.
Mary (01:08:03):
Sure, this was a wonderful conversation.
I can't believe all the timethat went by.
It just flew by talking to you.
Kristin (01:08:11):
I don't know when Will the episode be coming out?
Probably September?
Oh, in September?
Okay, because I was going tosay that in honor of the
one-year anniversary of the book, I'm putting it on Kindle for
free for the next three days,starting tomorrow.
But by the time the episodeairs, that will have already
(01:08:33):
come and gone.
But anyways, I always like tosay to anyone out there who
feels that they cannot afford abook write to me and I will send
you one, Because for me themost important thing is I want
people to know what happened.
Mm hmm.
Mary (01:08:46):
Well, and I will say so for people listening, we're
recording this.
I think it's August 12th, butif you want to send something
for me to put on my social media, that's up to you and I'll just
say this is a pending episode.
Oh, sure, I would love to.
Wonderful that will be comingout in.
September, but for now and youknow I'm going to be on Kindle
as soon as I hit stop recording.
(01:09:07):
But, all right, and I also wantto thank everyone for listening.
Who do you know who would lovethis episode?
Take a minute right now andforward it to them, and until
next time, go out into the worldand be the amazing, resilient,
vibrant Violet that you are.
Thank you.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey, violets, welcome to theshow.
I'm going to be candid for asecond.
As a therapist, creating apodcast even five years ago
would have seemed unthinkable tome.
(00:48):
I think almost anyone hostingor guesting on a podcast has
moments of uncertainty or evenanxiety about how much of their
own life to share.
Perhaps that's why celebritypodcasts seem to pop up
constantly.
For celebrities, sharingthemselves has always been part
of their working experience.
For regular people, especiallythose of my generation who were
(01:10):
raised in the pre-social mediaera, it can be more than a bit
intimidating.
For a therapist, however, ithas literally been trained out
of me to share about myself, soI had a few extra layers to
navigate.
I've had colleagues who didn'teven have family pictures in
their offices and who wouldn'thave an office in their home in
(01:32):
a million years because privacywas so important.
When I was trained 35 years ago, the model was very much to
share virtually nothing aboutyourself with clients.
It was definitely not like theshow Shrinking, in which Jimmy,
played by Jason Segel, breakspretty much every ethical
barrier imaginable.
But having said that, times havechanged quite a bit.
(01:53):
I have a few theories as to why, but that's a discussion for
another day.
Overall, I think therapy ismore effective when we allow our
clients to know a bit about us,but I guarantee there are some
therapists out there who wouldvehemently disagree.
At the same time, sharingpersonal details about ourselves
in a podcast or a book is quitedifferent than in the therapy
(02:15):
relationship, and it's animportant ethical situation to
navigate correctly.
And then there's the coachingrelationship, which has even
more permeable boundaries.
My guest today, a fellowtherapist, has navigated those
boundaries in a big way.
Kristen Louise Duncombe is atherapist, life coach and
bestselling author.
Her most recent book, object,is a true crime memoir that
(02:37):
exposes how the US governmentprotected a serial pedophile who
abused children for more than30 years before he was finally
arrested.
Kristen specializes in complextrauma and helping women create
the lives they dream of Welcometo no Shrinking Violets.
Kristin (02:53):
Kristin Thank you so much for having me and I love
your introduction because itreally is true having to
navigate that boundary questionbetween the personal and the
professional and the private,etc.
Etc.
(03:13):
Etc.
Yeah.
Mary (03:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, and you know it'sinteresting before we jump in
because I knew you know youcould relate to this.
I also do a weekly newsletterand I've had, I've gotten
clients from that and that'smore.
It's not really I don't talk alot about personal stuff, but a
little bit, and I think it'sinteresting because we've
trained with this idea of you'rea blank slate, they shouldn't
(03:37):
know anything, and that reallysets you up as, I think, a
expert that's too separated.
Think an expert that's tooseparated.
So people, especially now withsocial media, I think they need
to know some things you know andthen that helps them feel like
okay, I think I would resonatewith that person.
Kristin (03:55):
Yes, absolutely.
Mary (03:57):
So I know we're going to eventually talk about your book
and I can't wait.
Yes, but from what I havepieced together on your website
and on the profile that I read,you've had quite an adventurous
life like both challenging inchallenging ways and like pretty
cool ways.
So can you tell us a little bitof your story up until now and
(04:18):
how that kind of informs whatyou're doing?
Kristin (04:21):
Yes, absolutely so.
Well, I just had my 56thbirthday.
My birthday is August 6th, soI've just finished celebrating.
And in my 56 years, I think thereason you're referring to it
as adventurous this is usuallywhat people hone in on it's the
fact that I've lived all overthe world in many different
(04:43):
countries, and that is becausewhen I was a kid, my father was
a foreign service officer, so Iwas born in Washington DC, but I
grew up in West Africa, inSoutheast Asia.
We lived in a whole bunch ofdifferent countries, in fact I
can just list them.
We moved to the Ivory Coastwhen I was just short of my 10th
(05:04):
birthday, lived there for fouryears.
Then we moved to Cairo, egypt,then to New Delhi, india, then
to Jakarta, indonesia, and thenI moved to the States for
college.
I went to college inMassachusetts.
After college I worked inSeattle for a few years.
Meanwhile my mom and dad wereback in West Africa, in Nigeria,
(05:27):
and then I went to graduateschool in New Orleans, louisiana
.
And while I was in New Orleansin fact I had been there for all
of a day or two I met a guy.
A day or two I met a guy.
(05:56):
He is an Argentinian medical,humanitarian, research scientist
and fell madly in love.
And at that time he had acareer with Doctors Without
Borders and was slated to goback on mission in East Africa.
And so, as someone who hadalready spent my life moving
around, I didn't hesitate whenhe's like do you want to come
with me?
And I'm like yep, absolutely so.
(06:17):
Next thing I know I'm gettingmarried and going off to Nairobi
, kenya, with this man, and welived together in East Africa
for five years.
We lived in Nairobi for twoyears and in Kampala, uganda
Well, two and a half in Nairobi,two and a half in Kampala,
uganda and then moved to Paris,where I currently live.
(06:39):
But we lived in Paris for 10years.
Then we moved down south toLyon, france, then from Lyon we
moved to Geneva and then I movedback to Paris two years ago.
So that has been sort of mycomplicated geographic
trajectory.
Wow, and along the way I havebuilt my career as a therapist
(07:04):
and I've had my two children.
I have built my career as atherapist and I've had my two
children.
I have two children.
My daughter is 26.
She was born in Nairobi.
My son is 20.
He was born in Paris.
As you know, I have twogeriatric cats Because, for the
(07:25):
listeners, we were supposed tohave done this podcast a couple
of months ago, but one of mycats got sick and Mary very
kindly agreed to reschedulebecause I was taking care of
Olive, her name is Olive.
Yes, olive, yes, and so let'ssee now.
And now the yowling is starting.
She heard her name.
I hope that that doesn't getpicked up by the mic.
I hope that that doesn't getpicked up by the mic.
(07:47):
Yes, so in fact, now I'vestarted rambling about my
trajectory and with Olive'syowling I think I've derailed my
own thought process.
What was I trying to tell you?
Mary (07:57):
Okay.
Well, let's hit the pausebutton on where this is going,
because I'm having worked ineducation all my life.
I've seen a lot of studentscome and go.
I worked at Penn State for eightyears a lot of international
students, people coming from faraway, when you were growing up
in that life and I know there'sa dark side to what happened as
(08:18):
part of that, but let's parkthat to the side for a second.
Growing up and traveling likethat as a kid did you like it?
Did you like?
What was that like for you?
Kristin (08:30):
Well, you know it's so interesting because that is a
question that often gets askedof kids that are growing up like
that.
But when you ask a kid, whoselife, is that what it's like?
I mean like that, that's,that's the water that they swim
(08:52):
in.
So they don't know anythingdifferent.
So I did enjoy my childhood.
I did, you know, like any kidthat has to move around
frequently.
There was some hardship there.
You know it's hard to be new,it's hard to leave a place and
friends that you're attached to,and especially that was before
(09:13):
the age of social media.
So it's not like people wereable to keep in touch the way
people are nowadays.
But no, while I was living itit was just normal life, you
know.
You especially, you know I wentto international school.
So I was in school with kidsfrom all over the world also
(09:33):
some American kids, but kidsfrom from every place that were
all living that same way.
You know there's a term whichyou may or may not be familiar
with.
For people like us, it's thirdculture kids.
Do you know that expression?
Third culture kids?
So third culture kids, or TCKsas the abbreviation is, is
(09:56):
actually a super usefulreference.
Third culture kid refers topeople like myself or and then.
I'll transpose that same modelto my kids, who are also third
culture kids, but whosebackground is somehow different
than mine.
So both of my parents wereAmericans, are American citizens
(10:18):
, but because we grew upoverseas, what makes me a third
culture kid is the first cultureis the culture of the family.
The second culture is theculture or cultures of the
countries that you live in.
And the third culture is thecommon sub-community, the
(10:43):
culture of the sub-community offellow international expats that
you circulate with, that havethat same type of life, ie
parents from one place movingfrom country to country.
And then the third culturebeing the place where we meet,
culture being the place where wemeet.
(11:05):
So my children, for example Ithink I mentioned this to you
before we started recording, orwas were we already?
Yeah, we were already recording.
So my husband is Argentinian,my, my, the father of my
children is Argentinian.
So my children have an Americanmom, an Argentinian dad.
So they've already got twocultures at home.
(11:28):
They my daughter, was born inNairobi, my son was born in
Paris, and then they grew upbetween, you know, east Africa,
france and Switzerland, and theygrew up with other kids that
circulate in that internationalcommunity.
So, though, culturally.
(11:50):
My kids and I have come from adifferent background because I'm
from a monocultural family oforigin and they're from a
bicultural family of origin.
We are both third culture kidsand it's really, really
interesting.
You'll appreciate this as atherapist, because some of the
(12:10):
difficulties we used to have inour family life with my now
ex-husband is is that we had abig cultural difference.
He is monocultural Argentinian,he grew up in Argentina, he
lived there until he was 26years old and where, as an adult
(12:32):
, he has become a veryinternational person because
he's had a very interesting andrich international career.
He is very firmly rooted in hisArgentinian roots and the
reason I'm mentioning that youknow if he was here he would
disagree.
I often felt an absence ofempathy for some of the issues
(12:56):
that come along with the thirdculture experience.
For example, you know you askedif I enjoyed my childhood.
Well, I very much did, but whenI was a grown up trying to
establish my own adult life,which what quickly became an
evident problem was myrootlessness.
(13:18):
I didn't have a home base and Ineeded one.
You know that might not be thesame for everyone, but for me it
was something I needed.
I needed roots and the reasonI'm in Paris today is because
that was one of the originalbattles I had in my marriage my
(13:39):
now defunct marriage, if I cancall it that, because we're no
longer together, but we arestill friends.
But this is a great example.
You know, he and I would say tohim you have your past, you
still have access to it.
You're from a small city inArgentina.
Your entire family still livesthere, within a one kilometer
(14:03):
radius.
We go back every year andeverything that you came from is
consolidated there.
And so for you, because youknow, he wanted to keep
traveling the world, here there,changing every year, every two
years.
And early on in our marriage Irealized this is not what I want
(14:26):
.
I don't want to keep livinglike this.
And he couldn't understand whatmy problem was because he would
say you, of all people, you'reso international.
You spent your whole lifemoving around and that's what
you know.
(14:46):
I thought I was getting fromyou someone that can adapt and
I'm like, yeah, but don'tconfuse the things.
I can adapt, I just don't wantto.
I want a home base.
Mary (15:00):
Yeah, that's an important distinction.
Kristin (15:02):
Yes, and that is how we ended up having our little home
in Paris, the one that I'm inright now, because you know, I
had to fight tooth and nail forus to establish a home base
someplace.
Yeah, yeah.
Mary (15:18):
Yeah Well, I don't know a lot about.
I mean, you wrote three books,right?
Kristin (15:23):
Yes, I've written three books, yes.
Mary (15:26):
And it feels like and you can correct me if I'm wrong but
they sort of grew out of yourprocessing of things.
Kristin (15:34):
Yes, absolutely yeah.
So just for some moreterminology.
So I was talking about being athird culture kid, being a third
culture kid.
So my first book is calledTrailing, and trailing is a
tongue in cheek term for thetrailing spouse.
(15:54):
That's kind of considered notlike a very politically correct
way to say it any longer.
Now people like to sayaccompanying spouse, but I say
trailing spouse because, as Isaid, it's tongue in cheek, plus
that's the terminology I grewup with.
My mom was a trailing spouse.
This trailing spouse is the onewho follows the career spouse
(16:17):
and though, you know, in 2025,especially as careers more
careers are remote, I think it'seasier now for married couples
to be able to move off someplaceand both people be able to keep
their professional identity andexistence alive.
But you know, even 30 years ago, when I got married, that
(16:44):
decision that I made to followmy Doctors Without Borders
husband meant that I had to giveup my plans, and my plans were
to get my degree in clinicalsocial work and in public health
, and I did get my degrees, butI wanted to set up a practice in
(17:05):
the United States and, becauseI had traveled so much, I wanted
to just sort of like, have aneasy life and you know, have my
practice, you know you seethings a certain way.
I didn't have it all mapped out, but what I didn't anticipate
was getting married instead andtrailing this guy off to the
front lines of disaster anddisease.
(17:27):
His career and I say it withhonest admiration super
admirable work, extremelyinteresting work.
I mean he was the medicalcoordinator for the Doctors
Without Borders France operationbased in Nairobi, but they were
working in Sudan and Somalia,all over Kenya.
(17:51):
There was famines, there wasepidemics, there was, you know,
there was so many differenttragedies happening, one after
the other, and so I mean he wasnever there.
We landed in Nairobi and he hitthe ground running.
(18:11):
He was so busy, we lived withthe team, they were all super
busy and I was there emptyhanded.
I was the trailing spouse withno idea how to, as I write about
in my book, how to start a lifeout of thin air.
Yeah, as an MSF spouse was sodifferent from my life as an
(18:47):
embassy brat kid.
I mean, when you move aroundwith the embassy there's lots of
creature comforts.
When I moved around as a spousewith Doctors Without Borders,
there was no comforts and it wasa major adjustment.
And it's not because I'm justsuch a prima donna that I needed
(19:10):
to, you know, have someonefanning and massaging me.
But like I didn't have accessto transport, I didn't have a
telephone and it was difficultto figure out how to get my life
going without logisticalsupport.
Mary (19:27):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
So then your second book.
What journey did that sort ofdetail for you?
Kristin (19:38):
Well, my second book is called Five Flights Up, and
Five Flights Up actually refersto the five literal flights up
the 98 stairs of the apartmentthat I very brattly insisted
(19:59):
that we move into when myhusband forced me quote unquote
to become a trailing spouseagain.
So I'll have to backtrack tothe first book, so what?
And taking it all back to notbeing a shrinking violet, those
years in East Africa were very,very difficult.
(20:20):
It was super difficult to be atrailing spouse.
We were violently carjacked andI was, as a result, extremely
traumatized.
We got kidnapped by armedgunmen and I did not recover
well from that.
We had lots and lots ofproblems.
Book trailing ends with thediscovery that my husband is
(20:45):
having an affair with hiscolleague.
These are all true facts and Ipacked up my daughter, who was
two years old, and I left.
I was no longer a shrinkingviolet, literally.
I basically, and I took myduffel, I got my daughter in one
arm, a duffel bag in the other,and I left our life in Uganda
(21:07):
overnight and then set up mylife here in Paris.
After about six months we didget back together and went on to
have, you know, almost sixyears later, our second child.
But the second book has to dowith the fact that after 10
(21:29):
happy years in Paris you know,paris was the place that I told
you I fought to have a home basehe was offered a job in Lyon,
france, that he really wanted totake, and he just assumed that
(21:50):
of course I would think it wasgreat and that we would all go
off together.
And I was like forget it.
After what happened the lasttime, you know, I gave up my
life for you and then I almostlost my life in the carjacking
and I had to work so hard to geton my feet professionally and
(22:14):
I've always been a career mindedperson.
And now here I am in Paris.
I have a great professionalexistence.
I was the counselor.
You were mentioning that.
You were at Penn State, was itso?
I was the counselor at theAmerican University of Paris.
I had a great private practice.
I was very, very happy.
My kids, you know justeverything.
(22:36):
I had my whole great littlelife.
And then he wanted me to uprootagain and follow him on his new
job.
And so this time and this iswhat the book is about since I
was no longer a shrinking violet, I said no, I said I'm not
going.
I'm sorry.
You know it's a two hour train,high speed trains in France and
(22:59):
in Europe.
I said it's a two hour train.
We can have a commuter marriagemodel.
Many people do it.
We can do it too, because I amnot giving up my little
existence here in Paris.
I'm happy, I'm settled, andthat's it.
So for 18 months he was in Lyonand I stayed in Paris with the
(23:22):
kids.
I mean, it was great.
And so part of the book is abouthow I loved that new marriage
model.
I in fact found it injectedgood, new energy into our
relationship.
But he didn't like it, and soafter a while he said well, if
you're not going to move, I'mgoing to move back to Paris.
And that is what lit the fireunder my feet, because when he
(23:47):
left his job in Paris for thisother job in Lyon, it was for a
much better salary, much betterconditions, and so I was like,
okay, I'll move, and so.
But I insisted, since you'reforcing me to do this, I get to
choose the apartment.
And I chose an apartment thatturned out to be very, very
(24:08):
impractical.
I fell in love with it becauseit was the old world, beautiful,
but it was five flights up.
And those five flights became ametaphor for and this is what
the book is about trusting again, like really trusting again
after infidelity.
Because I didn't trust him.
I mean, I forgave him and Itook him back for the sake of
(24:35):
having our couple's life and ourfamily life.
But when push came to shove andhe wanted me to move again,
that's when the trust issuesreally reared their head and I
was like what am I doing tomyself Again, giving up all of
my stability for someone who'salready proven to me that he
cheats on me, and verycarelessly.
(24:55):
You know he had a very publicaffair, so it was about that.
That was part of the fiveflights up.
But the five flights up themetaphor is also about what it
means to raise foreign childrenin France.
(25:25):
Maybe know French culture,french culture which is, you
know, very famous.
Everyone knows something aboutFrench culture and the food, and
France is a wonderful place tolive.
I am not saying any of this ina complaining way, because every
day I'm grateful that I get tolive in France, but it is a very
particular culture.
The French are very, very judgyand judgmental and there is
very pedantic.
There is the French way thatyou do things and anything that
(25:48):
deviates from that is suspect.
And so, being an American momraising kids, you know who have
the American mom and theArgentinian dad.
We did so many things that wereoften treated with suspicion,
like, just to give one littleexample, I mean when I say
(26:09):
suspicion it's not nothing withlife or death implications, but
imagine you throw your kid'sbirthday party and you know the
kids pile in and you know youprepare things the way you would
have thought a kid's birthdayparty should go, based on your
own cultural references.
And then you've got all theselittle French kids there
(26:29):
complaining about frosting Idon't eat frosting.
Or you know things like that.
Or like, like you know, just Imean so many like my daughter,
she's, I mean.
And the kids, you know thingslike that.
Or like you know, just I meanso many like my daughter, she's,
I mean.
And the kids, you know,depending on their age, they go
through different reactions tohow their parents present.
(26:53):
But there would be certainmoments in time when my daughter
we'd be walking to school andshe'd say Mom, stop shouting
bonjour to everyone, don't yousee the French moms don't act
like that.
Because I'd be walking downthere going bonjour, ça va, oui,
bonjour.
You know just like, hey, howyou doing, and you know, the
(27:13):
truth is it was so well received.
I've got loads of Frenchfriends and you know I am their
American friend because we arevery different, and so it wasn't
actually a problem.
But for my daughter, who atthat time was nine, it was
extremely embarrassing, you know.
So things like that.
So the book is also about aboutthat.
It's about learning to trustafter infidelity.
(27:35):
It's about raisinginternational kids Raising
international kids in France, avery particular place and it's
also about expanding one's ideaof what makes for solid personal
identity.
(27:56):
Yeah, it's that no shrinkingviolet thing.
It's that no shrinking violetthing.
It's like, okay, how can I feelgood about my life in spite of
these areas of insecurity and inspite of, yeah, having to make
some sacrifices againprofessionally?
Mary (28:16):
Yeah, yeah, so really it seems like those two books
you're sort of.
It's almost like as maybe youjournaled, like you started.
It sort of came out of thisidea of documenting and then how
can I pull this together intothis?
Really, they sound like amazingmemoirs.
Kristin (28:35):
Yes, they are memoirs and you want to know.
It's really interesting to loopback to what we started with
with your introduction.
So, in all honesty, they didn'tstart out as journals only
because, even though journalingI do think is a great thing,
I've never been a journaler,even though I'm a writer, I'm
just not a journaler.
(28:56):
My books did not stem fromjournaling, but what they did
stem from was the desire toshare the universal, because I
find, in terms of that thingthat you started out with about
you know, when you're atherapist and you're supposed to
(29:17):
have a blank slate and or atleast that's what they teach you
in graduate school that never,ever worked for me.
I've seen therapists wherethey're like you can know
nothing about me and it justdoesn't work for me.
I do want to know who I'mtalking to and of course, I
don't ever want to be thetherapist or be in therapy with
(29:41):
a therapist who's going tomonopolize about their own life.
But I don't have any problemsaying, yeah, in my experience
such and such thing, or in myand how I really found my
professional footing in when Ifinally landed here in Paris was
by going around talking togroups about being a trailing
(30:05):
spouse, and also about raisingthird culture kids.
And you know those were suchbig topics that are salient in
the expat community that thosediscussions morphed into the
storytelling of what became mybooks.
Mary (30:30):
So you mentioned, you know , the carjacking, which sounds
so traumatic, but I think abouttrauma.
You had trauma early and italmost seems like the third book
is.
You worked your way up to thatright, Because this is sounds
like from what I know and I wantyou to share with us.
Sounds like this was reallyexposing some things that people
(30:55):
, at one point especially, didnot want to be exposed.
You were a child experiencing.
Kristin (31:02):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly, and so that that, yeah, okay,
let me.
So let me back up because it'sreally really fascinating.
So my third book it's calledobject, object, as in feeling
like an object.
Although it's so interesting,some people thought the way they
(31:22):
interpreted the word.
Object is I object, like Iobject to the sexual
objectification of children,which is true I do.
Object in the book is not in myfirst two books.
(31:46):
It's so much in my first twobooks because both of my first
two books explore the questionof who am I in relationship to
this man, my husband, whoseexistence is determining what
(32:11):
happens in my life, and I am notblaming him for that.
Just to be clear.
This is not about assigningblame, but to leap ahead to my
third book.
So when I was 10 years old, myfamily had recently moved, as I
(32:31):
mentioned, to the Ivory Coast.
One of the senior members ofthe US Embassy diplomatic staff,
he was a senior member of USAIDwhich, as you know, has
recently been dismantled byDonald Trump.
And no, I did not agree withthe dismantling of USAID, but I
(32:52):
do have some bones to pick withthe USAID administration because
of the story I'm about to tellyou.
One of the senior members ofUSAID, unbeknownst, it seems, to
anyone on the ground in theIvory Coast, was a rampant and
(33:12):
serial pedophile.
He was also my best friend'sfather.
So, as I mentioned, you knowthird culture kid, I went to the
International School of Abidjan.
Abidjan at the time was thecapital of the Ivory Coast, so
our fathers were at the embassy,us kids went to the
(33:36):
International School.
I'll show you her picturebecause I I dedicated the book
to her.
So this, this is me.
Can you see that?
that's that's me and that was mybest friend, rose and and I
have the the family's blessingto be telling this story.
So, and that's why the book isdedicated to her, that's why her
(33:58):
pictures in it, because, as shesays and I write about this in
the book owning what her fatherdid is is part of her healing.
It's not taking responsibilityfor it, but there's no denial
there, because what happened isis that, um, my path crossed
with this man.
(34:19):
His name was mr mul Mulcahy.
He's dead now, but for two anda half years, through multiple
sleepovers at Rose's house,family gatherings you know we
would spend Thanksgiving andChristmas together because our
parents were really good friendsRegular weekend outings to the
(34:45):
beach and to the pool I mean,I've spent a lot of time with
that family.
Mr Mulcahy sexually molested meand to talk a little bit about
trauma and I always think thatthis is an interesting example
you mentioned the trauma of thecarjacking.
As you know, when you getchased down the road by armed
(35:07):
gunmen and you know they attemptto kidnap you and they beat up
your husband and all of thatstuff, that's what we would call
acute trauma.
But what happened to me as achild between the ages of 10 and
12 with Mr Mulcahy, this jolly,convivial, really nice guy who
(35:29):
was very popular in thecommunity and everyone loved him
, me included, and he was alwaysbuying you know ice cream and
presents and he was the fun dad.
That is a different type oftrauma.
That is what we would callcomplex trauma, because the
relationship I had with him andthe things that he did to me
(35:53):
messed so in such asophisticated, insidious way
with my self-image, my capacityto trust, my induction into
sexual feelings before I wasready and knew what to do with
them.
(36:13):
It created a big developmentalwound, and so it's that type of
trauma that you know, as youknow, that we call complex
trauma.
But then, to add insult toinjury and this is the reason I
wrote this book and this is whatI want people to know and, by
(36:35):
the way, tomorrow is theone-year anniversary that I
released the book, and in thisyear since the book has come out
, so many important things havehappened related to what I'm
about to tell you.
So, first of all, I thought thatI was the only one having this
(36:57):
sort of icky secret, having thissort of icky secret,
uncomfortable, scaryrelationship with Mr Mulcahy.
However, all of a sudden and Iwrite about this in the book the
family was whisked back toWashington.
We were told that, you know, mrMulcahy had gotten a promotion.
It was only after the familywas gone that the parents were
(37:20):
informed that actually there hadbeen an allegation made by
another kid in the communitythat he had molested her in the
swimming pool.
And it was that moment thatparents all around the community
, my own included, sat kids downto say this terrible rumor is
(37:41):
going around about Mr Mulcahy.
Isn't it awful Such a kind man?
And one by one, kids all aroundthe community were saying well,
no, it's true, it happened tome too.
And the community launched intothe most massive community
(38:03):
crisis you can imagine, becausethis was really like the
community grandfather.
He used to babysit kids.
You know, he was this niceCatholic guy, yeah, yeah.
(38:47):
And so suddenly, what everyonebelieved had been the reality of
, you know, mr Wonderful MrMulcahy, it was all went up in
smoke and an investigation waslaunched by the State Department
and it was all confirmed yes,indeed, he is a child molester.
He molested all of thesechildren in the in the cohort
from the embassy in the IvoryCoast, there were seven of us
kids.
And about six months after hewas sent back to Washington and
the investigation was conducted.
Then the word came fromWashington that the case was
closed, he was not going to losehis job and he was not going to
(39:08):
be prosecuted, that MrMulcahy's civil liberties needed
to be protected because he haddiplomatic immunity and at the
time at least, there was nofederal law against pedophilia.
So it was as though no crimehad even happened.
And so, of course, the parents.
(39:30):
You know there was anotheruproar, but I mean, imagine this
was the early 80s.
There was no internet, therewasn't easy long distance phone,
this was all happening by cabletelegram.
But basically the statedepartment silenced the parents
(39:55):
who were trying to defend theirchildren who had been victims to
this man, and the statedepartment washed their hands of
it and said it's time to moveon.
Everyone shut up and get backto work.
And that is what happened.
Wow, yes, that is what happened.
And then I mean, many otherthings happened, but just for
the sake of telling you aboutthe cover-up, so that it all
(40:19):
blew up like that when I was 12.
The cover-up, so that it allblew up like that when I was 12.
When I was 22, I had just movedto Seattle, washington, and I
was having a lot of mentalhealth problems all ultimately
related back to the abuse.
You know I had developed aneating disorder.
I had developed binge drinkingdisorder Just you know.
(40:39):
So much of the sequelae that'spretty typical for abuse victims
.
I was like a classic textbookexample of that, although of
course I had no insight aboutthat.
It was like just stumbling inthe dark after that.
But I was having a series ofmental health problems got into.
A date rape situation ended upin counseling at a place called
(41:03):
the Sexual Assault Center.
And when I poured out the wholestory of what had happened to me
, my counselor insisted that weget in touch with the State
Department and say that they hadto pay for therapy.
And surprise, surprise, all ittook was filling out the
paperwork, one tort claim and,next thing you know, they sent
(41:24):
me $20,000 to pay for therapy.
This was in 1992.
I thought I was rich.
I was 22 years old.
I got this check for 20,000bucks.
I honestly thought that I hadhit the jackpot.
I see now how measly andinappropriate that sum is, even
(41:45):
at the time.
I mean, I remember my therapysessions cost $86.
And you know, the point is itwas inadequate and I had signed
on the dotted line that I wouldnot bother them anymore.
So it was a very naive thingthat I did.
I would not bother them anymore.
So it was a very naive thingthat I did.
That was when I was 22.
When I was 32, living here inParis, I had my little daughter
(42:10):
she was four at the time, hadalready gotten back together
with my husband after his affair, and all of that, someone that
was also one of the victims backin the Ivory Coast found me on
the internet and she wrote to meand said is this the same
Kristen Duntham that lived inthe Ivory Coast?
(42:30):
Blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
Yes, it is.
Oh my gosh, how are you?
It's so great to hear from you.
Blah, blah, blah.
And she said and this is all inthe book, by the way.
But she said so much to catchup about, but right now there's
something more urgent that Ineed to share with you.
Please see click this link.
So I click the link and it's anarticle published by the Boston
(43:15):
Herald and the headline isex-foreign service officer
turned Eucharist ministerarrested for rape of
eight-year-old girl on Cape Cod,massachusetts.
And it was Mr Mulcahy.
This big picture of him, all ofhis hair gone white, but
otherwise identical to 22 yearsearlier.
So then you know, it was justsuch a horrible, horrible
reality.
(43:36):
Not that I had ever thought that, like I never, ever thought, oh
well, you know, he got sentback to Washington and so then
he changed and I knew, of coursehe continued molesting people,
but it was one of those thingsthat I think that as a child I
(43:59):
felt so powerless, that I thinkthat as a child I felt so
powerless.
And then the way it all gothandled by the State Department,
there was this whole aspect ofmy life and this thing that had
happened, that had just beentotally walled off and I just I
had never.
I mean, I think about this alot like.
I mean I think about this a lotLike, yeah, why did I?
(44:39):
In all those 22 years I can sayit's hard for me to explain
exactly how that works, but butwhen that happened, I um got in
touch with the investigativeteam on cape kite I got there
was there was a whole reunion ofvictims and the mulcahy
(45:01):
children who had all also beenvictims and there was a statute
of limitations so many of usweren't able to testify but we
were able to submit depositionsand so many kids emerged from
the woodwork that he hadmolested and raped in those 22
(45:22):
years.
And there's also suspicion thatin the years prior to when my
path crossed with him that youknow, prior to the Ivory Coast,
he had been in Vietnam and thePhilippines and there is, of
course, suspicion that he hadvictimized many people in those
countries.
So it's just awful yeah.
Mary (45:47):
So when you I think it was when you started talking about
the $20,000, that's when thequestion popped into my mind
when did you get mad?
When did you really get angry?
Kristin (45:59):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Yeah, you know, I honestlythink this is going to maybe
sound crazy, but it's reallyfascinating, I so I mentioned
that this book came out a yearago tomorrow, I thought when I
(46:26):
wrote the book and as I wasgetting ready to release it, I
thought like that was the work,I had done the work.
What I have realized in thislast year is now the work is
happening, because now I'mreally fucking furious.
(46:47):
It's now it's like I think thatuntil I literally released this
book, I think I was stillholding my breath, and it's only
been in this last year throughconversations like this and
going around speaking to peopleand being vocal, you know, on
(47:09):
Instagram and on Facebook andany chance I get to say, a
middle-aged man sexuallymolested a 10, 11, and
12-year-old girl and I wasn'tthe only one on a regular basis
and that was consideredacceptable to the powers that be
(47:29):
, and it's still like that.
So my real anger is now.
However, the thing that got meorganized to sit down and start
writing this book organized tosit down and start writing this
(47:53):
book and so this was a flash ofanger was when I heard the Larry
Nassar story.
That's, lee's ball doctor ofUSA Gymnastics, who had so many
girls had reported him and hehad been protected by his
employer and you know I havesince learned the language for
(48:17):
these things that is calledinstitutional collusion, and so
that was an initial flash ofextreme anger that I felt, like
many women, and I try to avoid.
I don't want to alienate anyonebecause I know that there are
differing opinions about this,but I do have to say I was also
(48:39):
extremely triggered during theBrett Kavanaugh hearings.
I do believe Christine BlaseyFord and I have in my own life
of repeat victimizations.
After you know my childhoodabuse, I had been in several
(49:04):
date rape situations like theone that she describes.
Date rape situations like theone that she describes and, yeah
, the fact that he is, you know,and Clarence Thomas, just all
of it.
Trump grab him by the pussy,just all that crap.
Mary (49:51):
I'm so sick of it.
I'm so sick of it so I'm prettyangry now.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's been something that'scome up often on this show, the
idea of women in anger, and Ithink the times I'm pretty in
touch with my anger my husbandwould tell you and a lot of
times it can be on behalf ofother things Like we won't go
into all of world events rightnow, but it's a difficult time
to remain calm every single day.
But I remember so, working at acollege, you probably have a
higher than average number of,and I'll say, women it can
happen to men too but women thatare assaulted because Because
you have 5,000, you know sameage people, and so working with
(50:12):
girls that had been assaultedwas a monthly I wouldn't say
weekly, but a monthly thing, andoften it would be told in this
very matter of fact, here's whathappened.
Or, you know, it sort of wasshock, like it hadn't set in yet
.
But even after we would worktogether for a while and I would
bring up anger, they're likeI'm not angry and I'm and you
(50:34):
know I'm not going to push intothat Right At that time.
They have to get to it.
But that's when I started torecognize that part of what we
hold in our bodies as trauma isthat, that anger that we have
put somewhere, because it isunacceptable, in the face of all
these things, it's unacceptableto become indignant about what
(50:58):
happened to you and that'sreally shrinking.
And I think that's where andI've said often one of the only
acceptable emotions for men isanger and it's not for women.
So it's this crazy.
We're not in touch with thatpart of us.
And I'm not talking about justgoing out and ranting forever.
(51:19):
That's not helpful either forour physiological well-being.
But I think to be in touch withthat ability to express the
anger and know that you have aright to be angry and then
processing that, because angergrows out of other things.
(51:40):
But we also hold trauma, and wecould have a whole other hour,
I'm sure, on that.
But what the trauma does, whenyou even said you had all these
things happening, you knowdrinking and you know sort of
all the things that happen whenwe're trying to keep that at bay
.
And we don't know till somebodyhelps us see it and we open
(52:02):
what I call the junk drawer andsee all the shit in there and
we're like, oh my God, that'swhy.
But see, it's so interestingthat even now you're saying it's
a year after the book waspublished and I'm connecting to
that strong.
Kristin (52:17):
Oh yeah, I'm still connecting to it and it's so
fascinating.
Let me tell you, I'd love toshare this little story with you
, because it's funny how Itotally agree with you and I
find myself talking with withclients about this, also about
how you know it's.
It is excellent to be in touchwith your anger, and then what
(52:37):
is the most useful is if you canfigure out how to express anger
constructively so that youdon't lose your audience.
But what I was going to say isit just lose your audience.
But what I was going to say isit just, it's continued to
surprise me this year to see howI have, I guess, changed with
(52:58):
anger as the motor.
And so here's the little storythat I was going to share with
you.
So I mean, I've been single forseveral years now, single by
choice, you know, maybe a littledate here and there, but I just
haven't found any one thatreally suits my fancy and I
(53:19):
would rather, you know, be athome with a book.
But this past winter I did datesomeone for a few weeks,
someone that I thought, oh, Ididn't think, oh, this is the
one I don't really believe in,that the one thing.
But I did think, oh, this issomeone that I think I would
like to get to know this manmore.
And, wow, this is a really nicesurprise to meet this person,
(53:42):
who is a little bit older thanme he's 58 and just seemed like
a really good guy.
And he is a good guy.
I'm not going to try to turnhim into a demon.
However and here's the angerpart we were walking down the
road one day just chit-chattingabout this, that and the other,
and you might be aware that ayear ago this summer, the
(54:05):
Olympics were held here in Paris, and so we arrived at the big
Olympic rings and we weretalking about the games.
I hadn't known him at the timeand I told him how I had gotten
out of town, because I hatecrowds, but he told me that he
had participated in the Olympicsand seen, you know, gone to see
this, that and the other thing,and then he goes.
(54:26):
Yeah, it was great, but theonly thing I regret so much is
that I didn't get a chance tosee women's volleyball.
They're sad and I just knew whathe was going to say.
And I just looked at him andhe's like, because the uniforms,
(54:47):
they're, you know.
And I was just looking at himand he's like because the
uniforms there, you know, and Iwas just looking at him and he's
like, and I think he thoughtthat like I couldn't understand
what he was.
He's like, you know, they're sosexy.
And I said I'm like what's thepoint?
He's like, what do you mean?
What's the point?
He's like totally didn't getwhat I was talking about and I'm
(55:09):
like why are you telling methat?
And I was pissed and he's likewhat he's like?
They're so beautiful, they'reso sexy.
And I'm like so you're this58-year-old dude who likes to
gawk at young women and you'rebragging to me about it and
we're out on a date and like,don't you see what is wrong with
(55:36):
that?
And then, of course, he went offinto his speech about how, you
know, you can't even sayanyone's beautiful any longer.
It was such a turnoff and Ithought about it and thought
about, I mean, we resolved thediscussion in the moment and
moved on from it, but thatrelationship eventually ended
and that was one of the reasonsfor me, because I understand,
(55:58):
you know, if you're of a certaingeneration and you haven't been
educated about these things andif you're, you know, sort of a
typical entitled guy, you don'tmaybe think about those things.
But what really pissed me offabout him is that he wasn't even
interested in looking at hisown sexism.
(56:19):
But the reason I'm telling youthis story is I think that had
that happened to me a yearearlier, I would have, even
though it would have made mefeel bad and it would have made
me think, god, what is wrongwith?
Mary (56:33):
you.
Kristin (56:34):
I would have probably just been like, I wouldn't have
expressed my anger.
Yeah, I said to him, was.
I'm like are you aware thatthose sexy uniforms that that
actually women athletes havebeen in a whole what's the word?
(56:55):
There's been a whole issue andthey have been trying to
negotiate not having to wearthose sexist costumes, like do
you know?
Of course, I mean, do you wouldthat have made?
And I've asked myself, like,would you would?
Would someone else have gottenmad about that?
Mary (57:13):
too.
Yeah, I think, pointing outthat there was a time where you
would have just been like andfiled it away, versus, you know,
in a, in a relationship, thatyou think you're building
something potentially, I thinkit's really important to draw
that line as strongly as youneed to draw it then, yeah,
(57:34):
because.
But in other situations I thinkabout what's the outcome gonna
be, and I don't think you shouldever stay silent because you
just think that's what you haveto do.
But I think sometimes there'sstrategic silence and there's.
You know, there are frameworksthat people grow up in and you
said it, they have no idea Likewe can express it, and then it
(57:58):
becomes oh, you're just beingwhatever.
No, actually you need toquestion your framework and I
think you know sometimes it's towhat end.
But I think other times, whenit's a personal relationship or
potentially somebody that youknow you're growing with or you
(58:18):
think you might, then that is,if he would have been like wait
a second, tell me more aboutthat.
You know.
Kristin (58:26):
Yeah, that's what he would have been forgiven
instantly.
Like are you, are youinterested in learning from
women?
And that's what I am, you know.
Sometimes people ask me.
They're like do you thinkyou're going to be single?
My daughter, she's 26.
She told me just this pastweekend, when I spent the
weekend with her for my birthday, she's like you know, mom, I
(58:49):
think it's so cool that you'resingle, like that you're happily
single, that you know you'resingle but you're not there like
a shrinking violet about it.
You're like having fun in agreat old time.
And and I said, yeah, I mean I,I'm, I'm happy, I am happy.
And she said do you think youever will let someone in again?
(59:09):
And I said, well, I'm totallyopen to it, but I am only open
to a man who is interested inlearning from women.
Mary (59:26):
Yeah, and you also said a little bit bit ago, sometimes
the anger keeps your messagefrom getting across and I think,
yeah, that can be.
You know we have this term,karen, which I've recently
talked about on many episodesand unfortunately for people who
are named karen, but oh my godwe've painted the right, we've
painted righteous anger with thesame brush a lot of times and
(59:50):
that is not caring behavior.
That's basically saying I'mstanding here with my feet apart
like I'm trying to make a pointhere, but I think sometimes,
when this is where the thestereotypical response to
women's anger comes in, it'slike oh, she's hysterical, and
that's where I think the pointcan get missed.
So then we have to navigate.
(01:00:10):
Well, when do I quote,intentionally stay small to get
my message across, and when do Ithrow my arms out and say screw
this?
Like here's what I'm saying,and I think that you know we
have so many things we have tosort of navigate with our
emotions and our stereotypicalmonikers that they give people.
(01:00:32):
And so I think you knowsomebody made a point at one
point I talked about invisiblelabor on one of my episodes,
where it's women take on all ofthese things and men have no
idea, but they themselves aresocialized too.
So where is the line of likethis is socialization.
So I'm going to like try toexplain my position and okay,
(01:00:56):
this is now a choice.
Like you recognize that it'sthis or you won't hear that it's
this and you just want to staystuck because you're not going
to examine that.
So it's a really complex thingsometimes that we are, and
that's where I think we arealways stuck, that you know,
I've had women say to me I didthis thing, that was hard,
(01:01:18):
because I kept thinking of yourshow and I would tell myself no
shrinking violets.
Kristin (01:01:24):
And.
Mary (01:01:25):
I would't want the converse of like sometimes you
strategically choose a path whenmaybe you want to scream your
head off, but it's a strategyand so it's okay to sometimes do
that.
That doesn't mean you're ashrinking violet, it means
you're a smart violet.
Kristin (01:01:41):
Yes, indeed A strategic violet, exactly.
Mary (01:01:45):
I love that story that you told because I think it really
does bring up all of thesethings and when it's a potential
partner, I think they need tosee the degree of upsetness.
Kristin (01:01:57):
Yeah, totally yeah, and you want to know what's so
interesting?
Just to link that anecdote backto the topic of complex trauma.
Topic of complex trauma I thinkthe reason I've turned that
over in my head so much is I'llnever forget the day of that
conversation because of the way,like the way he was looking at
(01:02:18):
me, as though I was like thisunreasonable, mean person for
getting after him, for makingsuch a dumb sexist comment after
him for making such a dumbsexist comment.
And one of the things that Ihave had to work so hard on in
(01:02:39):
my life and I consider this oneof the major pieces of my
recovery from a complex traumais to stop fawning.
And for any listeners out therethat don't know what fawning is
because I think that's reallyonly becoming part of the
(01:02:59):
popular lexicon now is, you know, fawning is the accommodating,
the being nice, the making nice,the acting, pleasing in order
to ensure relational safety.
(01:03:25):
I was extremely uncomfortable, Iwas extremely humiliated and
embarrassed and I didn't like it.
But I would just freeze and lethim do his thing and then, as
soon as he was done, I would goback into acting like nothing
had just happened.
You know, let's go back toplaying Marco Polo.
I mean, five minutes ago youhad your hand in my bathing suit
(01:03:46):
, but now I'm going to playMarco Polo like nothing happened
.
And so many variations on that.
And I think the reason thatparticular anecdote that I just
shared about the you know theuniforms are so sexy really
affected me is because Iunderstood instinctively like,
(01:04:09):
oh, if I want to remain in goodstanding with this guy and have
him still like me and haveeverything still continue on in
the good way that it's going, somaybe I'll have a relationship,
I should be fawning now, Ishould do that thing.
(01:04:32):
I should do that thing, I shouldact like it doesn't affect me
seriously to have this58-year-old dude making comments
about young women who areprofessional athletes and how he
wants to show up to gawk atthem in their skimpy little
outfits that they don't evenwant to wear, but that he
doesn't even know about that.
Because who cares about thepolitics of women's sports?
And you know, either I canaccept that and make nice so I
(01:04:55):
can keep having a relationship,or I can tell him how irritating
and dumb that I thought thatwas and I chose that one.
But it's hard to functiondifferently.
As you know, it's very hard,and I think in that one, but
it's hard to to to functiondifferently, as you know.
Mary (01:05:10):
It's very hard and I think in that situation, when it's a
new potential relationship, wecan sort of default to well, I
don't want to make waves becauseeverything seems to be going
well and it might be this onlything, and I guarantee you, when
you let it go, it's going togrow bigger.
It's going to grow bigger andit's going to be so.
Yeah, I think you bring up agood point and that's, um,
(01:05:31):
probably a future mini episodefor me is talking about not just
fight, flight and freeze, butthat fawn which is much more
complex and we can think aboutwithout getting into details.
You know the p diddy situationoh god, oh my god, there was
that's that's a, really, whenyou think about what happened in
that and how the reaction wasthere was a huge power
(01:05:54):
differential and getting sweptup in that and, yeah, to try, I
fought him too much, I wouldlose the roof over my head.
Kristin (01:06:12):
And you know that.
Just to add, going back to thecover up that the State
Department did See, that's oneof the things that I find most
reprehensible about what theState Department did to all of
their staff who were parents ofvictims, because our parents
fought back to an extent, butour parents' entire lives were
(01:06:38):
controlled by the StateDepartment salary, housing,
schooling for the children, allof it.
And so how much can you fightback against the hand that feeds
you?
Mary (01:06:51):
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It gets very complex and thenyou know the kids are obviously
paying the biggest price.
But yeah.
What, what a story and what um.
So many experiences that youhave.
We are about the same age, soyou've packed a lot of stuff
into your life so many coolthings too.
(01:07:12):
I love that you are living inParis, and so thank you so much
for this conversation.
I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
I think the time flew by thisis probably going to be my
longest episode.
Kristin (01:07:24):
Oh my gosh, yeah Well, and I hope I wasn't too long
winded.
I know I can go blah, blah,blah but thank you so much.
Mary (01:07:30):
So can you first, before I end, where can people find you,
and then I will also link it inthe show notes.
Kristin (01:07:36):
Yes, okay.
So the easiest way to find meis, you know, go on to Google
and type in my name, kristenDuncombe or Kristen Louise
Duncombe.
I use my middle name as well inmy author name, but I have a
website, it's kristenduncombecom.
There you can find everythingabout my practice, about my
books and, yeah, abouteverything.
Mary (01:08:00):
Okay, so I will link it in the show notes.
Kristin (01:08:02):
Yes, thank you so much.
Mary (01:08:03):
Sure, this was a wonderful conversation.
I can't believe all the timethat went by.
It just flew by talking to you.
Kristin (01:08:11):
I don't know when Will the episode be coming out?
Probably September?
Oh, in September?
Okay, because I was going tosay that in honor of the
one-year anniversary of the book, I'm putting it on Kindle for
free for the next three days,starting tomorrow.
But by the time the episodeairs, that will have already
(01:08:33):
come and gone.
But anyways, I always like tosay to anyone out there who
feels that they cannot afford abook write to me and I will send
you one, Because for me themost important thing is I want
people to know what happened.
Mm hmm.
Mary (01:08:46):
Well, and I will say so for people listening, we're
recording this.
I think it's August 12th, butif you want to send something
for me to put on my social media, that's up to you and I'll just
say this is a pending episode.
Oh, sure, I would love to.
Wonderful that will be comingout in.
September, but for now and youknow I'm going to be on Kindle
as soon as I hit stop recording.
(01:09:07):
But, all right, and I also wantto thank everyone for listening.
Who do you know who would lovethis episode?
Take a minute right now andforward it to them, and until
next time, go out into the worldand be the amazing, resilient,
vibrant Violet that you are.
Thank you.
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