December 25, 2025 • 44 mins
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The shortest days of the year can sharpen our sense of what’s sacred. We lean into that seasonal stillness to tease apart religion as a set of rules and spirituality as a living, breathing experience, then explore how stories shape who we become. Our guest, spiritual guide and facilitator Kristen Swan, shares how a childhood of opposites—chaos and structure, permissive adventure and reserved expectations—sparked a lifelong curiosity about identity, control, and creative freedom. Together we look at why so many women carry invisible labor, over-function in relationships, and deflect simple compliments, and how those reflexes keep us small.
From there, we introduce a grounded practice: the spiritual autobiography. Think of it as a living document that traces where you’ve brushed up against the more-than-self, written not to impress but to be true. Kristen walks us through defining key words on our own terms—spirit, prayer, sin, hope—so we can swap borrowed scripts for felt meaning. Through memory prompts and group sharing, this process turns snapshots of life into a map, revealing patterns, resilience, and the places where purpose actually lives. We call it “mapping hope,” the moment you recognize you’re still here after every twist and break, and your story is still unfolding.
We also talk practical tools to make reflection stick: small, in-person circles that build community across differences and a prompts journal to declutter the mind, notice patterns, and support better decisions. If the holidays feel heavy or hollow, this conversation offers a gentle reframe and a path back to what matters—your nature, your voice, and your definition of success. If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs encouragement, and leave a quick review to help others find us.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristan (00:00):
If we're paying attention to something and
something's catching our eye, itusually means that it's it's
good information that we need tobe reflecting on.
And so I really had to gothrough that journey of valuing
my uniqueness.
Mary (00:20):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:43):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
The holidays have always beenone of my favorite times of the
year.
My family celebrated Christmas.
My mom was Catholic and my dadwas Protestant.
(01:03):
Under the rules of beingmarried in the Catholic Church,
my siblings and I needed to beraised in the Catholic faith.
The way that that informed mychildhood, that's a story for
another day.
But after my freshman year ofcollege, during which, believe
it or not, I got up to walk amile to Mass every Sunday, even
if I was partying the nightbefore, I decided to leave the
(01:26):
church.
One of the things I've ponderedsince then is religion versus
spirituality and how they, atleast to me, are truly different
concepts.
I've taken courses on religion,and I've learned much from my
clients over the years.
It always felt to me, andperhaps this is the Catholic
history of my life, thatreligion is a construct, a
format, like the rules ofengagement for a higher power.
(01:49):
Spirituality, on the otherhand, feels expansive to me,
open and free, like it's thewhole world.
And we get to decide how wefeel it and allow it to be
present in our life.
I feel a higher presence themost when I'm in nature, and I'm
really connected to the seasonsand the changes in light and
dark.
So I'm delighted to talk withmy guest today near the winter
(02:10):
solstice because first, it feelslike a time of reflection and
stillness, and I think sheconnects with these aspects of
spirituality in her work.
And also the feelings aroundChristmas for me have changed
quite a bit over the years.
It's become more challengingfor a number of reasons, but I
try to connect to the aspects ofcelebrating that feel spiritual
to me or that symbolize a senseof spirit.
(02:32):
The twinkle lights, the pieceof instrumental music, finding
gifts or sharing experienceswith the people that I love, the
tradition of recipes that canbe traced back generations, and
the stories we tell, and theevents that are woven into our
collective memory.
These stories are what reallyseems to color our experience of
holiday time.
My guest today, Kristen Swan,uses our narratives of life to
(02:56):
explore our deepest truths,question the beliefs we've
inherited, and reconnect withthe inner wisdom we may have
been taught to ignore.
A business coach, turn life,and spiritual guide, Kristen is
devoted to helping people comehome to themselves.
She believes that curiosity isone of the most powerful tools
we have, a way to approach ourlives with openness, creativity,
(03:17):
and compassion.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Kristen.
Kristan (03:22):
Thank you so much, Mary.
It's a pleasure to be here.
And I am just, yeah, I'm soexcited to dive into all these
topics today because it is, I asI was listening to you, I was
like, yes, yes, yes.
Mary (03:38):
Yeah, I think it's a perfect time for it.
So I thought, how fortuitous.
Like when I really started tothink about what I wanted to
talk about today, I think thetiming is really perfect.
So I wondered if you mightstart with telling us a little
bit about sort of the parts ofyour life that you feel really
informed, who you are and howyou show up in the world today.
Kristan (04:02):
I'm an only child.
And I was also an onlygrandchild for over 12 or 13
years.
And then my cousin came along.
And as a result, it's funnybecause I had this really
chaotic upbringing.
On the one hand, uh my parentswere only married um for a very
(04:24):
short time before they divorced,and which led to a lot of
moving around, a lot ofdifferent homes, a lot of
different schools.
Things never felt very certain,right?
There just was a lot ofuncertainty.
(04:45):
Um, and then on the other hand,I grew up spending so much time
with my grandparents on bothsides of both my my dad's
parents and then my grandmotheron my mom's side.
And and they were such a sourceof consistency for me, right?
(05:06):
And but and they werecompletely different people, my
grandparents.
I mean, they they really theirkind of their approach to life
was very different.
They had very differentupbringings.
And so I think that one of thethings has that has always
informed my life is I feel likeI am very much kind of this
(05:29):
melding in the middle betweenthese kind of really opposites,
right?
I I love that about me.
I love that, and I think thatthat has allowed me to also be a
lot more understanding ofdifferent people and different
(05:51):
situations.
I think that that allows for meto have a, I think it allows
for this curiosity that I have.
And it also, I mean, for a longtime, my reaction as a teen and
young adult was to attempt tocontrol uh my life.
And the things that I stilllove are reminiscent of kind of
(06:16):
that chaos and then that thattime of really trying to control
things.
Um, I now have a newunderstanding of what I can
control and what I can'tcontrol.
Um, however, I still lovehaving a schedule.
I still love having somestructure to my life.
And I actually think formyself, and I think this is true
(06:37):
for a lot of um both artistsand just generally creative
people, I think that creativityreally thrives within some sort
of structure, right?
Um, sometimes there's this ideathat creativity just loves kind
of that free form, that chaos.
And I don't know that it doesnecessarily.
(06:58):
So I still embrace structure.
Um, I am less controlling, youknow, it's it's a work in
progress.
And I I think because of thetime I spent with my
grandparents, it's funny becauseI I it's again, it's kind of
this polarity, right?
It's I'm not a very sentimentalperson and I'm not necessarily,
(07:20):
I'm not really a collector ofthings.
Things are not that importantto me as representative of, you
know, a person or a memory.
Um, on the other hand, I can bevery old-fashioned in that I
love to fix things.
Like I always lament that welive in kind of a disposable
(07:44):
society now, right?
I love to cook.
I mean, I hate throwing outfood.
It's like my depression-eragrandparents, you know, it's
like you need to use every lastlittle bit, right?
So I'm very creative that way.
So it's it's this funny um,again, kind of this balance
between these seeming oppositeways of being.
Mary (08:08):
Well, and that came from your grandparents, right?
The one set of grandparents wasa bit more, well, maybe much
more permissive.
You got to sort of live likewhen I read your paragraph, it
was like a little bit ofhedonistic lifestyle for a kid.
And the other set ofgrandparents was more um, what's
the word, organized, or theyhad more set expectations for
(08:31):
behavior.
Kristan (08:32):
So my grandmother is the one who was just like a in
some ways like a big kid.
Yeah.
And so she loved having kind ofa partner in crime, right?
And we would go on all sorts ofadventures and we we did a lot
of road trips.
So it was usually my mom and mygrandmother and I, and my
grandmother and I would share aroom, and my mom got her own
(08:54):
room.
And the first thing that wewould do, my grandmother and I,
is jump on the bed and test itout, right?
I mean, yeah.
And and then as she got older,she'd encourage me to jump on
the bed and and test it out.
And, you know, and so we hadall sorts of fun things like
that.
My other grandparents were muchmore reserved.
(09:14):
Um, in a lot of ways, they werevery um, they weren't
necessarily bound by the rulesof society.
I mean, they they were veryopen-minded.
The other thing about myupbringing is it spending some
being an only child and spendingso much time with adults.
(09:36):
I became very adept atmirroring my behavior, picking
up on the cues of what was whatwas gonna be okay and what
wasn't gonna be okay.
And also just with this chaosof um, you know, just different
elements is being someone whowas not gonna rock the boat.
(10:01):
I I was also very good atdisappearing, right?
Of not being not drawingattention to myself and not
being that thing that was goingto be disruptive.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that again,kind of one of those holdovers
is that I I can, you know, Istill work with it is, you know,
(10:22):
the people-pleasing nature thatum I developed to kind of
navigate these rough waters.
Mary (10:32):
Yeah.
It sounds hard having to goback and forth between the
different sets of expectations,but um I'm so good at it.
Kristan (10:41):
And it's funny because I'm so good at it that it it
didn't even it didn't evenregister because when you're
brought up that way, you don'tyou're not thinking, oh, it's
hard or it's easy, right?
It's just the way.
Mary (10:55):
Yeah.
It's the way, right?
Kristan (10:57):
Yeah.
Mary (10:57):
And I think it's also interesting that you started
your work doing businesscoaching.
And I don't know if you stilldo that, but you sort of segue
into this other kind of well,kind of work, the other other
themes in your work.
Kristan (11:15):
Yeah.
The thing, I've done so manydifferent types of jobs and I've
had so many differentprofessions.
And when I finally took sometime to kind of reflect of what
are those through lines for me,really what became evident is I
(11:38):
love supporting people.
I really believe that ouruniqueness and our individuality
is to be celebrated.
And I love supporting people inhaving successful lives.
And I'm very careful to pauseand say every single person
(12:00):
needs to spend a little timewith themselves on a regular
basis to say what is mydefinition of success, though,
right?
And and to be very carefulbecause we can easily adopt
other people's definition,right?
And I've done that myself, youknow, and I and you could argue
(12:20):
that this is an outcropping ofpeople pleasing.
Um, but it's it's more thanthat.
It's it is really kind ofhaving watched people struggle,
both in my family and and justfriends and and colleagues, and
kind of my heart just breakingessentially because, you know,
(12:42):
it's like I I just wanted thesepeople to see themselves because
they're so wonderful and had somuch to offer and and do have
so much to offer.
And I had to go on that samejourney for myself.
It I mean, usually, right?
If we're yeah, if we're ifwe're paying attention to
something and something'scatching our eye, it usually
(13:02):
means that it's it's goodinformation that we need to be
reflecting on.
And so I really had to gothrough that journey of valuing
my uniqueness and and myself andand saying that it was okay for
me to think about what asuccessful or a meaningful or
(13:24):
purposeful, all those things,what purposeful life, right?
What those look like for me,and being willing to just value
the whole of myself.
You know, I I still work onthat.
I mean, I the again, it's a awork in progress.
And I think really, you know,that has really informed my
(13:48):
recent work that I do insupporting people in in group
settings, um, small groups inperson for self-discovery and
reflection.
And you mentioned storiesearlier.
I mean, that is such a powerfulmeans of learning, both
(14:09):
learning about ourselves andlearning about others and the
world, right?
Is is stories.
And I always think about, Ithink about the stories that are
we are telling ourselves.
This this um a lot of noise uphere sometimes and or in here,
um, the stories that we'veinherited or that have been kind
(14:30):
of given to us from our familyor our our upbringing, um, our
culture, and then also thestories that we choose to tell
or that we choose to share.
And I think that that also canbe so informative too, because
you know, for instance, what Ihaven't, I mean, and I'll I'll
(14:52):
share it now, but I as I waskind of giving you some of the
background and I'm mentioning,oh, we're going on all these
road trips.
Well, the context for thoseroad trips is my uncle was in
prison for pretty much themajority of his life.
And he would get out and thenhe'd do something and he'd end
(15:13):
up back in prison.
And so a lot of our road trips,we would go and drive around
California to visit my uncle inprison.
You know, my mom, I think um,this is her brother.
She obviously was sensitive tothe fact that I'm a little kid
and I'm, you know, doing thisthing.
(15:34):
So she'd always make it kind offun.
Like we'd always like dosomething, you know, go go see,
you know, go to the pier inMonterey or go to the aquarium
and then, you know, go visit myuncle.
And yeah, so I'd, you know, I'dcome back and I'd go to school
and oh, what'd you do thisweekend?
Well, you know, I went to theaquarium, right?
Mary (15:56):
Yeah.
Kristan (15:57):
But I never, I mean, in that moment, I wasn't gonna
share that I was visiting myuncle in prison.
Mary (16:04):
Yeah.
Kristan (16:05):
Right.
I mean, because that degree ofvulnerability was not available
to me as a elementary school agechild or a as a even as a
middle schooler, or I mean, Imay be told a couple of people
in high school.
So I think also, again, kind ofpaying attention to the stories
(16:29):
that you're willing to sharewith others.
Mary (16:32):
Yeah.
Well, one of the things that itreally fascinates me about
stories, narratives, it twothings.
First, I talk often aboutlimiting narratives because I
think that especially women seea lot of things that happen in a
way that diminishes them.
So that's one thing maybe wecan explore.
(16:56):
I think the other thing thatoccurs to me is every kid in a
family grows up in a differentfamily.
Yeah.
So, and to explain that alittle bit, because of course,
as a therapist, that's a commontheme.
Your birth order reallydetermines what that experience
was like.
You know, you have differentrelationships with your siblings
(17:16):
than any of your other siblingsdo with each other.
Your parents are at a differentplace.
And it's only been recentlythat I've shared some stories
with my siblings.
And even though I know allthis, I'm like, that's how you
remember that.
And it's just so fascinatingthat we hold on to these things
(17:37):
and they are our truth.
They define what we know ofourselves, how we think about
ourselves, how we think aboutour relationship in our family.
And then when you hear one ofyour siblings tell it, or even
you talk to, I talked to one ofmy dad's sisters recently, and
my dad would be 98.
He's passed away since.
Um, but talking to her, hearingthose stories made me see my
(18:01):
parents entirely differently.
So that idea of stories, Ithink, is endlessly fascinating.
Kristan (18:08):
Oh, it is.
You know, being an only child,one of the few things that I I
knew as a young adult, I wasn'tthat sure about that much, but I
knew I really wanted to be aparent.
And I have been very fortunate.
And I have three wonderfulchildren who are young adults.
(18:28):
And, you know, it's it was sofascinating for me to experience
this being a mother.
And in particular, one of themost, and I had spent a lot of
time babysitting and and takingcare of kids.
So I mean, the the mechanics ofit, I was pretty adept at.
(18:49):
I mean, from the get-go, right?
I mean, it's like they're bornand they are these very unique
(19:11):
individuals.
And and so I think that that'skind of interesting.
And then, yeah, then you add onthe layering of kind of sibling
dynamics.
And as you said, you know, asa, you know, at the time, my
husband, um, you know, just whowe were as parents.
And so it is so fascinating.
(19:32):
And going back to your pointabout memory too, I I have a
family that I I know and I Ilove.
So there's like 12.
It's a family of 12 kids.
And talk about, I mean,literally, you can bring up a a,
you know, a situation or ainstance, and you've got 12
(19:55):
different memories of that,yeah, that event.
It is so interesting what weeach hold right from an
experience.
And I agree with you that thereis so much, um, particularly
for women, there there is thistendency to limit ourselves to
(20:22):
to also, I think, I don't knowif if you have felt this.
I've been married now threetimes, and I I tease myself that
I am with my third, my last,and my best husband.
And I truly mean that.
He is a wonderful man.
And my first two marriages,which both ended in divorce and
(20:46):
and divorces that I initiated,there was a time when I was in
the marriage that I felt likethe issues that we were having
were mine to fix.
And I have seen myself do thisin other instances where I'm
kind of taking more of theresponsibility for the situation
(21:10):
than really is mine to take.
Mary (21:14):
Yeah.
Kristan (21:14):
And I think that that is also something commonly that
we do as women, right?
I mean, it's it's I think kindof that kind of a maybe a bit of
an unhealthy stretch of ournurturing or our caretaking that
we often do, you know, out oflove and and genuine desire to
(21:37):
be caretakers, but then yeah,that where it can go awry when
we are, you know, taking all theresponsibility.
And and I think that that we,you know, one thing that helped
me to move away from that typeof behavior was that there was a
little bit of hubris in that.
(21:58):
Not only was I assigning myselfmore of the responsibility in
fixing this thing, that alsowasn't really giving room in the
relationship.
And this is whether I, youknow, a personal relationship or
a professional relationship, itwasn't giving room for the
other person to step in and andkind of and bring what they had.
(22:23):
And so, you know, it's it'sfunny because in on the one
hand, we we kind of take on thatres all that responsibility
because we're saying, oh, youknow, I'm gonna fix it.
I I'm the one who, you know,made this bad, I'm gonna figure
this out.
And there's something aboutthat that's like, yeah, no, it's
not all you.
So just slow down here a littlebit and allow for the fact that
(22:48):
there's other people, allow forthem to be part of this, you
know, part of the solution.
Or in and maybe the solution isthat, you know, in the terms of
my marriage that you don'tnecessarily end up together, but
allow room for that otherperson to to have some space and
some say into this.
Mary (23:07):
Yeah, we take on a lot.
I think it's partlysocialization.
And then we do hold it tightbecause, you know, it's kind of
that catch 22.
It's like, why isn't anybodyhelping me?
And it's like, well, I kind oftold them, like, I don't really
need help.
So that is that interestingthing of moving from that sort
(23:27):
of sense of control, or I'mgonna own this, do all this
invisible labor.
And then when the resentmentsets in, it's really like you
gotta look in the mirror andlike, well, we do teach people
how to treat us.
So yeah, I think that'sinteresting.
And as far as the limitingnarratives, I'm always still
fascinated by we can have 17compliments and one criticism.
(23:52):
And the criticism is not onlyin red, but it's in 38-point
font in our brains.
And so that is really somethingthat holds us back, focusing
on.
Kristan (24:03):
Well, it's interesting.
I for the very first time I dida group specifically designed
just for women.
There have been plenty of timeswhere I have offered groups
that have ended up being justwomen.
Um, but this was the first onethat was designed for women, and
it was a four-week thing wherewe met once a week.
(24:25):
And I think it was maybe thesecond or third week.
And I I like to kind of starteach of my groups with not only
some breathing just to kind ofget ourselves in the room, so to
speak, but also just kind of alittle bit of an icebreaker or
something and question.
And again, to kind of get usout of our wherever we were
(24:49):
rushing from, or you know,whatever else is on our brain.
And so I I asked this group ofwomen, I said, I'm gonna have us
all share a what is acompliment that you recently
received.
Mary (25:05):
Was it crickets?
Did you get crickets?
Kristan (25:07):
Oh my goodness, we got crickets.
And it was funny becauseeveryone is looking at me like,
what are you talking about?
Right.
And so I finally shared, and Iwas like, Well, I said, you
know, this came to me because Ihad just been on the phone with
a dear friend of mine, and shewas so sweet because she was um,
(25:32):
we were about to hang up andshe said, Oh, do you have just a
couple more minutes?
She said, I just want to tellyou how great my daughter was
the other day at her sportingevent.
And I was like, Yeah.
So, you know, she told me abouther daughter and and she goes,
Thank you so much.
(25:52):
She goes, I love that you'reone of the few people that I can
just brag about my daughterwith abandon.
I don't have to censor myselfat all.
And I was like, Oh, I lovethat.
I love being that personanytime.
I mean, you can call me up andjust do that, you know, and then
you can we can just talk aboutthat and we'll catch up another
(26:15):
time.
And I shared that with thegroup because I said that just
meant so much to me.
And then conversely, though,just I don't know, a day or two
ago, I was wearing, I don'tknow, maybe a skirt or
something, and somebody said, Ilike your skirt.
You know, and the first thing II wanted to say was, oh, this
(26:35):
old thing, like, yeah, yeah.
I mean, you know, this is likewearing pajamas, you know, this
is this is just nothing.
And and I caught myself and Ithought, oh my goodness, what
are you doing?
Just say thank you.
Just say thank you.
So I think for me, like thereare certain compliments that I
(26:58):
can really latch on to and I canjust bask in the good glow that
I get from it.
And then there are those otherones that are like, I'm, you
know, the minute the complimentis, I don't even let it land,
right?
I'm like, whoo, let me brushthis off.
Mary (27:16):
Yeah.
Deflect.
Yes.
Kristan (27:18):
And I think a lot of that for me is specifically
because my one of mygrandmothers was so had so many
mixed messages about appearance.
She grew up very, very poor.
She was very poor when she hadmy my mom and my uncle.
(27:39):
And cleanliness was going to bekind of the the way that she
could prove that she was poor.
Kind of it would it would behorrible to be poor and to
somehow, you know, that there beany dirt anywhere, any dust,
(28:00):
any dirt.
So I mean, like your house hadto be spotless, you had to be
spotless.
And so there was always thisemphasis on presenting kind of
spotless, right?
As a woman, I thinkspecifically, your hair better
be brushed and you're this andthat, but you can't draw too
(28:21):
much attention to yourself.
I will never forget one timeI'm picking her up.
This is later in life, and Ithink the kids are in the car,
and I had some lipstick on.
And I don't wear a ton ofmakeup, but I just had lipstick.
And she was like, What it, whatis that?
Like, what is what are youwearing?
And I was like, I'm just I'mwearing a little lipstick.
(28:44):
And she was, oh and then itlike a couple of minutes later,
she's like, she said, Well, Iguess it looks okay.
And you know, it was kind oflike, Who are you trying to, you
know, and I wasn't trying, Imean, I was just I was just
hanging out with her.
I mean, I wasn't like I was Iwasn't trying to draw any
(29:06):
attention to me.
I just I liked it.
I thought it was a prettycolor, you know, and it was just
such a funny, you know, so manymessages though about who you
can be and who you better notbe.
And we can tend to carry thosefor much longer than is
(29:28):
necessary.
And I know that for her, therewas an element of worrying about
a young woman getting too muchattention, right?
Or being subject to you know,violence.
Mary (29:42):
Yeah.
Kristan (29:43):
Yeah.
And that's the benefit ofgaining wisdom through time and
experience, is you realize shewasn't necessarily trying to be
hypercritical, right?
I mean, she just so much ofthis messaging that we get, you
know, it's it comes from a Placeof being worried about us or
(30:03):
trying to keep us safe.
Mary (30:05):
Yeah, and it ends up kind of it keeps us small.
I mean, I think those messagesreally keep us small.
So let's take a little sideroute now and try to get to
wrapping into what I startedwith in my intro, because you
work with spiritualautobiographies.
So what first of all, can youexplain a little what does that
(30:28):
mean?
Kristan (30:28):
Yes.
Discovering your spiritualautobiography is a workshop that
I recently developed, althoughthe spiritual autobiography as a
tool or exercise is somethingthat I came across many, many
years ago.
And I was facilitating smallgroups at a church.
(30:51):
And it was one of theactivities that I was meant to
do with my group.
The church provided thecurriculum and it it always
struck me as a really wonderfulexercise because it was asking a
question that was a little bit,you know, different than a lot
(31:14):
of the questions that we get.
And I think what is helpful iswhen we are asked questions that
are a little bit outside of theday-to-day, it gets us to
think, right?
I mean, we kind of were like,oh, I'm not gonna just pull out
my my regular response responsefor this, right?
(31:35):
I I actually am gonna, oh,okay, let me think about this.
And so over a year ago, I wastransitioning out of business
coaching and um had completed amaster's of education and had
been assisting in writing a bookwith a local nonprofit in my
town.
(31:55):
And I was just really, I waslike, oh, I'm so ready to do my
next thing, but I don't knowwhat my next thing is, which is
highly, highly unusual for mebecause I usually am like, oh, I
know right what my next thingis.
And I actually told myself, Isaid, okay, Kristen, you are
going to just sit with thisuncomfortable and unusual
(32:21):
feeling for yourself of youdon't know what is next.
So what came to me was I wantedto provide something that
allowed for people to connect,connect with themselves and
connect with others, and byextension, could possibly build
(32:43):
community, especially in a youknow, increasingly polarized and
fractured society.
And I thought, okay, so what isthe what's the little thing
that I can do?
And I thought, you know, I'mgonna create a workshop
discovering your spiritualautobiography.
So I put together a curriculumand I've massaged it a little
(33:06):
bit over time now.
And your spiritualautobiography, in the terms of
my workshop, it is a thousand to1500 word document, and we
share them aloud with eachother.
So, and the way that I describeit to people is I consider this
to be a living document.
(33:26):
In other words, that this isnot the final say, because I see
spirituality as something thatis continuingly changing,
growing, evolving, right?
And so this is just allow thisto be your snapshot in this
moment.
(33:46):
And for me, there have beentimes where I am reflecting on a
specific incident that has kindof informed my understanding of
that which is bigger thanmyself, right?
And and then there have beentimes where it's more of a story
(34:10):
of a series of experiences andand happenings.
I mean, for instance, one of myspiritual autobiographies is I
talked about having children.
And I was saying that one ofthe things that really surprised
me about my eight children isis in becoming a mother, a
parent, is how uniquelythemselves they were when they
(34:33):
arrived.
The other thing that completelyupended me was how much, well,
I expected to love them.
I did not expect to be so inlove with my children.
And I remember when my firstson was born, my first child, I
mean, it was like my heart justthe expansion that happened, it
(34:58):
I mean, it took my breath away.
And I remember on the eve of mysecond child was gonna be
induced.
And so I I the night before, Iremember looking at my my first
child thinking, oh my gosh, Ilove you so much.
And I'm about to justcompletely rock your world.
And I love you so much, like Idon't know what it's gonna be
(35:22):
like to have this second child.
And so then I have my secondchild, and what I learn in that
moment is our capacity for loveis is infinite.
Mary (35:33):
Yeah.
Kristan (35:34):
And that to me is a deeply spiritual moment, a a
spiritual lesson andfoundational to my understanding
of spirituality.
Mary (35:48):
Yeah.
So when someone is thinkingabout what is my spiritual
autobiography, do you start thatwith a question?
Or how do they think in termsof beyond like I was born and
then this happened, and thenthis happened.
So, so the spiritual part,explain that.
How do you how do they get tothat?
How do you help peopleconceptualize that part of it?
Kristan (36:10):
So it is a workshop.
Either it is done over thecourse of several weeks where
you're meeting once a week, andor it is more of a retreat style
immersive workshop.
So I am not throwing peopleinto the deep end and saying,
write your spiritualautobiography, right?
So where we start is we reallystart with, and as you mentioned
(36:34):
at the beginning, there is alot of um commingling sometimes
in terms of our language andalso even our understanding
between religion andspirituality.
So right from the get-go, weare within the group for each of
(36:55):
ourselves and in the group, weare really investigating, you
know, what it what do weconsider religious and what do
we consider spiritual?
I have led groups where peopleare religion and spirituality
for them is hand in glove.
And that's just the way it is.
And I would say more often thannot, as we get into it and we
(37:20):
start thinking about it, it'skind of it's like a Venn
diagram, right?
I mean, there's you've got yourreligious bucket and you've got
your spirituality bucket.
And there's moments where they,I mean, prayer, for instance,
prayer often can be part ofboth.
So there are these places wherethere is the overlap, but we
(37:44):
really dig into what thedifferences are so that people
can begin to, for the purposesof this workshop and this
investigation, maybe let go ofthe religion piece of it and
lean into the spirituality pieceof it.
(38:06):
But I do think that language isvery powerful.
So we do look at one of theexercises we do is I I love for
us to pick words.
And sometimes we pickspirituality, sometimes we pick
religion, but we even pick wordslike sin or heaven or prayer.
I have a list of words that Ito get people thinking, and I
(38:28):
have people look up kind of theacademic definition, right?
What is the dictionarydefinition of this?
And if they're super curious,they can kind of do a little
digging and look up where itcame from and even kind of what
that um, you know, in otherlanguages, is there nuance to
(38:49):
it?
And then I have people reflecton what is their understanding
of that word.
Because as I mentioned earlier,with success being one of those
words that we need to definewhat that means for us outside
of what the societal or culturaldefinition is.
(39:10):
It would be limiting to onlythink about the definitions that
have been delivered to us.
Mary (39:18):
Yeah, yeah.
So you help people go beyondthat and you kind of call it
mapping hope.
Kristan (39:22):
I do.
I do so we we do a series ofdifferent exercises.
And so we're we do, we diveinto the words to start with,
and we kind of start diggingaround into people's religious
backgrounds.
I mean, even if you have notnecessarily been raised in a
very specific faith tradition, Imean, we live in a society
(39:47):
where religion is around us.
I mean, it's it's in art, it'sin literature.
So so even if you're saying I'mnot a religious person, it
still is it you've you've bumpedup against it somewhere.
So we do that.
We also then do some differentexercises reflecting on the you
(40:10):
had mentioned kind of, well,when I was this age, this is
what happened.
And so I have an exercise wherewe we do a little bit of a
chronological, but it's a littlemore free form just to allow
for memories to be brought forthwithout the structure of a
strict kind of chronological umsequencing.
(40:32):
But what ends up happening whenyou go through these different
reflections and sharing, becausewe're also sharing out as a
group, is you kind of yourealize I'm still here.
I'm here.
And I've had these experiences,I've had these heartbreaks and
(40:54):
heartaches, and they're stillpart of me, right?
But I'm still here.
Mary (40:58):
So that's the hopeful part.
Kristan (41:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I I feel like as long asfor myself, as long as I am
still living and breathing, andthis is also what I attempt to
share with my participants, isyour story is never oh, it's not
over.
And I think that when you takethe time to reflect on your past
(41:24):
and your stories and theemotional landscape, you do
realize that there have beenthese twists and turns to your
story that you never could haveanticipated.
And I think that also that is aplace where we can recognize
hope as something to hold on to.
Mary (41:46):
Yeah, because so often things that we would say were a
failure, or I don't like theword mistake.
I don't really think there are,I think there's misjudgment.
I don't know about mistake, butI think that's often the point
where something changes becauseyou're challenged.
You, you know, something youthought was going to be a
(42:06):
certain way was not a certainway.
And then it's like, oh, what doI do now?
And that's where reinventionhappens.
And I think that's veryhopeful.
But so many interesting themes.
So let's wrap up with youtelling us where to find you.
And if there's anything otherthan your spiritual
autobiography workshops that youdo, just share with us how you
(42:29):
can help people.
Kristan (42:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Happy to, Mary.
You can find me on my website,kristanswan.com.
I do focus primarily onin-person workshops and
experiences.
So, and if you are interestedin doing that where you are,
just let me know and we canfigure that out.
And on my website, there are alist of events that are
(42:52):
upcoming.
Um, one of the other thingsthat I do is I sell a journal
that's called Spaghetti on theWall.
And this is a journal withprompts.
And I really love this as ameans of developing a habit of
discernment.
I think that one of the bestthings that happens when you use
(43:14):
spaghetti on the wall on aregular basis, and I I do it
every day, is reallydecluttering your mind as well
as really getting some awarenessand um some recognition of
patterns and decision making andthings like that.
So I always say that I am notin the business of changing
(43:39):
people.
That's just not what I do, butI do think that awareness is a
wonderful thing.
And then you get to choose whatyou do with that.
Mary (43:50):
Yeah, I love that.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here.
And I will put all those, Iwill link everything in the show
notes so people can still haveaccess.
But thank you for being here,Kristen.
Thank you, Mary.
You're welcome.
And I want to thank everyonefor listening.
If you enjoyed today's show,please take a second to scroll
to the bottom of the show pageand leave a quick review.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
(44:12):
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
If we're paying attention to something and
something's catching our eye, itusually means that it's it's
good information that we need tobe reflecting on.
And so I really had to gothrough that journey of valuing
my uniqueness.
Mary (00:20):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:43):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
The holidays have always beenone of my favorite times of the
year.
My family celebrated Christmas.
My mom was Catholic and my dadwas Protestant.
(01:03):
Under the rules of beingmarried in the Catholic Church,
my siblings and I needed to beraised in the Catholic faith.
The way that that informed mychildhood, that's a story for
another day.
But after my freshman year ofcollege, during which, believe
it or not, I got up to walk amile to Mass every Sunday, even
if I was partying the nightbefore, I decided to leave the
(01:26):
church.
One of the things I've ponderedsince then is religion versus
spirituality and how they, atleast to me, are truly different
concepts.
I've taken courses on religion,and I've learned much from my
clients over the years.
It always felt to me, andperhaps this is the Catholic
history of my life, thatreligion is a construct, a
format, like the rules ofengagement for a higher power.
(01:49):
Spirituality, on the otherhand, feels expansive to me,
open and free, like it's thewhole world.
And we get to decide how wefeel it and allow it to be
present in our life.
I feel a higher presence themost when I'm in nature, and I'm
really connected to the seasonsand the changes in light and
dark.
So I'm delighted to talk withmy guest today near the winter
(02:10):
solstice because first, it feelslike a time of reflection and
stillness, and I think sheconnects with these aspects of
spirituality in her work.
And also the feelings aroundChristmas for me have changed
quite a bit over the years.
It's become more challengingfor a number of reasons, but I
try to connect to the aspects ofcelebrating that feel spiritual
to me or that symbolize a senseof spirit.
(02:32):
The twinkle lights, the pieceof instrumental music, finding
gifts or sharing experienceswith the people that I love, the
tradition of recipes that canbe traced back generations, and
the stories we tell, and theevents that are woven into our
collective memory.
These stories are what reallyseems to color our experience of
holiday time.
My guest today, Kristen Swan,uses our narratives of life to
(02:56):
explore our deepest truths,question the beliefs we've
inherited, and reconnect withthe inner wisdom we may have
been taught to ignore.
A business coach, turn life,and spiritual guide, Kristen is
devoted to helping people comehome to themselves.
She believes that curiosity isone of the most powerful tools
we have, a way to approach ourlives with openness, creativity,
(03:17):
and compassion.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Kristen.
Kristan (03:22):
Thank you so much, Mary.
It's a pleasure to be here.
And I am just, yeah, I'm soexcited to dive into all these
topics today because it is, I asI was listening to you, I was
like, yes, yes, yes.
Mary (03:38):
Yeah, I think it's a perfect time for it.
So I thought, how fortuitous.
Like when I really started tothink about what I wanted to
talk about today, I think thetiming is really perfect.
So I wondered if you mightstart with telling us a little
bit about sort of the parts ofyour life that you feel really
informed, who you are and howyou show up in the world today.
Kristan (04:02):
I'm an only child.
And I was also an onlygrandchild for over 12 or 13
years.
And then my cousin came along.
And as a result, it's funnybecause I had this really
chaotic upbringing.
On the one hand, uh my parentswere only married um for a very
(04:24):
short time before they divorced,and which led to a lot of
moving around, a lot ofdifferent homes, a lot of
different schools.
Things never felt very certain,right?
There just was a lot ofuncertainty.
(04:45):
Um, and then on the other hand,I grew up spending so much time
with my grandparents on bothsides of both my my dad's
parents and then my grandmotheron my mom's side.
And and they were such a sourceof consistency for me, right?
(05:06):
And but and they werecompletely different people, my
grandparents.
I mean, they they really theirkind of their approach to life
was very different.
They had very differentupbringings.
And so I think that one of thethings has that has always
informed my life is I feel likeI am very much kind of this
(05:29):
melding in the middle betweenthese kind of really opposites,
right?
I I love that about me.
I love that, and I think thatthat has allowed me to also be a
lot more understanding ofdifferent people and different
(05:51):
situations.
I think that that allows for meto have a, I think it allows
for this curiosity that I have.
And it also, I mean, for a longtime, my reaction as a teen and
young adult was to attempt tocontrol uh my life.
And the things that I stilllove are reminiscent of kind of
(06:16):
that chaos and then that thattime of really trying to control
things.
Um, I now have a newunderstanding of what I can
control and what I can'tcontrol.
Um, however, I still lovehaving a schedule.
I still love having somestructure to my life.
And I actually think formyself, and I think this is true
(06:37):
for a lot of um both artistsand just generally creative
people, I think that creativityreally thrives within some sort
of structure, right?
Um, sometimes there's this ideathat creativity just loves kind
of that free form, that chaos.
And I don't know that it doesnecessarily.
(06:58):
So I still embrace structure.
Um, I am less controlling, youknow, it's it's a work in
progress.
And I I think because of thetime I spent with my
grandparents, it's funny becauseI I it's again, it's kind of
this polarity, right?
It's I'm not a very sentimentalperson and I'm not necessarily,
(07:20):
I'm not really a collector ofthings.
Things are not that importantto me as representative of, you
know, a person or a memory.
Um, on the other hand, I can bevery old-fashioned in that I
love to fix things.
Like I always lament that welive in kind of a disposable
(07:44):
society now, right?
I love to cook.
I mean, I hate throwing outfood.
It's like my depression-eragrandparents, you know, it's
like you need to use every lastlittle bit, right?
So I'm very creative that way.
So it's it's this funny um,again, kind of this balance
between these seeming oppositeways of being.
Mary (08:08):
Well, and that came from your grandparents, right?
The one set of grandparents wasa bit more, well, maybe much
more permissive.
You got to sort of live likewhen I read your paragraph, it
was like a little bit ofhedonistic lifestyle for a kid.
And the other set ofgrandparents was more um, what's
the word, organized, or theyhad more set expectations for
(08:31):
behavior.
Kristan (08:32):
So my grandmother is the one who was just like a in
some ways like a big kid.
Yeah.
And so she loved having kind ofa partner in crime, right?
And we would go on all sorts ofadventures and we we did a lot
of road trips.
So it was usually my mom and mygrandmother and I, and my
grandmother and I would share aroom, and my mom got her own
(08:54):
room.
And the first thing that wewould do, my grandmother and I,
is jump on the bed and test itout, right?
I mean, yeah.
And and then as she got older,she'd encourage me to jump on
the bed and and test it out.
And, you know, and so we hadall sorts of fun things like
that.
My other grandparents were muchmore reserved.
(09:14):
Um, in a lot of ways, they werevery um, they weren't
necessarily bound by the rulesof society.
I mean, they they were veryopen-minded.
The other thing about myupbringing is it spending some
being an only child and spendingso much time with adults.
(09:36):
I became very adept atmirroring my behavior, picking
up on the cues of what was whatwas gonna be okay and what
wasn't gonna be okay.
And also just with this chaosof um, you know, just different
elements is being someone whowas not gonna rock the boat.
(10:01):
I I was also very good atdisappearing, right?
Of not being not drawingattention to myself and not
being that thing that was goingto be disruptive.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that again,kind of one of those holdovers
is that I I can, you know, Istill work with it is, you know,
(10:22):
the people-pleasing nature thatum I developed to kind of
navigate these rough waters.
Mary (10:32):
Yeah.
It sounds hard having to goback and forth between the
different sets of expectations,but um I'm so good at it.
Kristan (10:41):
And it's funny because I'm so good at it that it it
didn't even it didn't evenregister because when you're
brought up that way, you don'tyou're not thinking, oh, it's
hard or it's easy, right?
It's just the way.
Mary (10:55):
Yeah.
It's the way, right?
Kristan (10:57):
Yeah.
Mary (10:57):
And I think it's also interesting that you started
your work doing businesscoaching.
And I don't know if you stilldo that, but you sort of segue
into this other kind of well,kind of work, the other other
themes in your work.
Kristan (11:15):
Yeah.
The thing, I've done so manydifferent types of jobs and I've
had so many differentprofessions.
And when I finally took sometime to kind of reflect of what
are those through lines for me,really what became evident is I
(11:38):
love supporting people.
I really believe that ouruniqueness and our individuality
is to be celebrated.
And I love supporting people inhaving successful lives.
And I'm very careful to pauseand say every single person
(12:00):
needs to spend a little timewith themselves on a regular
basis to say what is mydefinition of success, though,
right?
And and to be very carefulbecause we can easily adopt
other people's definition,right?
And I've done that myself, youknow, and I and you could argue
(12:20):
that this is an outcropping ofpeople pleasing.
Um, but it's it's more thanthat.
It's it is really kind ofhaving watched people struggle,
both in my family and and justfriends and and colleagues, and
kind of my heart just breakingessentially because, you know,
(12:42):
it's like I I just wanted thesepeople to see themselves because
they're so wonderful and had somuch to offer and and do have
so much to offer.
And I had to go on that samejourney for myself.
It I mean, usually, right?
If we're yeah, if we're ifwe're paying attention to
something and something'scatching our eye, it usually
(13:02):
means that it's it's goodinformation that we need to be
reflecting on.
And so I really had to gothrough that journey of valuing
my uniqueness and and myself andand saying that it was okay for
me to think about what asuccessful or a meaningful or
(13:24):
purposeful, all those things,what purposeful life, right?
What those look like for me,and being willing to just value
the whole of myself.
You know, I I still work onthat.
I mean, I the again, it's a awork in progress.
And I think really, you know,that has really informed my
(13:48):
recent work that I do insupporting people in in group
settings, um, small groups inperson for self-discovery and
reflection.
And you mentioned storiesearlier.
I mean, that is such a powerfulmeans of learning, both
(14:09):
learning about ourselves andlearning about others and the
world, right?
Is is stories.
And I always think about, Ithink about the stories that are
we are telling ourselves.
This this um a lot of noise uphere sometimes and or in here,
um, the stories that we'veinherited or that have been kind
(14:30):
of given to us from our familyor our our upbringing, um, our
culture, and then also thestories that we choose to tell
or that we choose to share.
And I think that that also canbe so informative too, because
you know, for instance, what Ihaven't, I mean, and I'll I'll
(14:52):
share it now, but I as I waskind of giving you some of the
background and I'm mentioning,oh, we're going on all these
road trips.
Well, the context for thoseroad trips is my uncle was in
prison for pretty much themajority of his life.
And he would get out and thenhe'd do something and he'd end
(15:13):
up back in prison.
And so a lot of our road trips,we would go and drive around
California to visit my uncle inprison.
You know, my mom, I think um,this is her brother.
She obviously was sensitive tothe fact that I'm a little kid
and I'm, you know, doing thisthing.
(15:34):
So she'd always make it kind offun.
Like we'd always like dosomething, you know, go go see,
you know, go to the pier inMonterey or go to the aquarium
and then, you know, go visit myuncle.
And yeah, so I'd, you know, I'dcome back and I'd go to school
and oh, what'd you do thisweekend?
Well, you know, I went to theaquarium, right?
Mary (15:56):
Yeah.
Kristan (15:57):
But I never, I mean, in that moment, I wasn't gonna
share that I was visiting myuncle in prison.
Mary (16:04):
Yeah.
Kristan (16:05):
Right.
I mean, because that degree ofvulnerability was not available
to me as a elementary school agechild or a as a even as a
middle schooler, or I mean, Imay be told a couple of people
in high school.
So I think also, again, kind ofpaying attention to the stories
(16:29):
that you're willing to sharewith others.
Mary (16:32):
Yeah.
Well, one of the things that itreally fascinates me about
stories, narratives, it twothings.
First, I talk often aboutlimiting narratives because I
think that especially women seea lot of things that happen in a
way that diminishes them.
So that's one thing maybe wecan explore.
(16:56):
I think the other thing thatoccurs to me is every kid in a
family grows up in a differentfamily.
Yeah.
So, and to explain that alittle bit, because of course,
as a therapist, that's a commontheme.
Your birth order reallydetermines what that experience
was like.
You know, you have differentrelationships with your siblings
(17:16):
than any of your other siblingsdo with each other.
Your parents are at a differentplace.
And it's only been recentlythat I've shared some stories
with my siblings.
And even though I know allthis, I'm like, that's how you
remember that.
And it's just so fascinatingthat we hold on to these things
(17:37):
and they are our truth.
They define what we know ofourselves, how we think about
ourselves, how we think aboutour relationship in our family.
And then when you hear one ofyour siblings tell it, or even
you talk to, I talked to one ofmy dad's sisters recently, and
my dad would be 98.
He's passed away since.
Um, but talking to her, hearingthose stories made me see my
(18:01):
parents entirely differently.
So that idea of stories, Ithink, is endlessly fascinating.
Kristan (18:08):
Oh, it is.
You know, being an only child,one of the few things that I I
knew as a young adult, I wasn'tthat sure about that much, but I
knew I really wanted to be aparent.
And I have been very fortunate.
And I have three wonderfulchildren who are young adults.
(18:28):
And, you know, it's it was sofascinating for me to experience
this being a mother.
And in particular, one of themost, and I had spent a lot of
time babysitting and and takingcare of kids.
So I mean, the the mechanics ofit, I was pretty adept at.
(18:49):
I mean, from the get-go, right?
I mean, it's like they're bornand they are these very unique
(19:11):
individuals.
And and so I think that that'skind of interesting.
And then, yeah, then you add onthe layering of kind of sibling
dynamics.
And as you said, you know, asa, you know, at the time, my
husband, um, you know, just whowe were as parents.
And so it is so fascinating.
(19:32):
And going back to your pointabout memory too, I I have a
family that I I know and I Ilove.
So there's like 12.
It's a family of 12 kids.
And talk about, I mean,literally, you can bring up a a,
you know, a situation or ainstance, and you've got 12
(19:55):
different memories of that,yeah, that event.
It is so interesting what weeach hold right from an
experience.
And I agree with you that thereis so much, um, particularly
for women, there there is thistendency to limit ourselves to
(20:22):
to also, I think, I don't knowif if you have felt this.
I've been married now threetimes, and I I tease myself that
I am with my third, my last,and my best husband.
And I truly mean that.
He is a wonderful man.
And my first two marriages,which both ended in divorce and
(20:46):
and divorces that I initiated,there was a time when I was in
the marriage that I felt likethe issues that we were having
were mine to fix.
And I have seen myself do thisin other instances where I'm
kind of taking more of theresponsibility for the situation
(21:10):
than really is mine to take.
Mary (21:14):
Yeah.
Kristan (21:14):
And I think that that is also something commonly that
we do as women, right?
I mean, it's it's I think kindof that kind of a maybe a bit of
an unhealthy stretch of ournurturing or our caretaking that
we often do, you know, out oflove and and genuine desire to
(21:37):
be caretakers, but then yeah,that where it can go awry when
we are, you know, taking all theresponsibility.
And and I think that that we,you know, one thing that helped
me to move away from that typeof behavior was that there was a
little bit of hubris in that.
(21:58):
Not only was I assigning myselfmore of the responsibility in
fixing this thing, that alsowasn't really giving room in the
relationship.
And this is whether I, youknow, a personal relationship or
a professional relationship, itwasn't giving room for the
other person to step in and andkind of and bring what they had.
(22:23):
And so, you know, it's it'sfunny because in on the one
hand, we we kind of take on thatres all that responsibility
because we're saying, oh, youknow, I'm gonna fix it.
I I'm the one who, you know,made this bad, I'm gonna figure
this out.
And there's something aboutthat that's like, yeah, no, it's
not all you.
So just slow down here a littlebit and allow for the fact that
(22:48):
there's other people, allow forthem to be part of this, you
know, part of the solution.
Or in and maybe the solution isthat, you know, in the terms of
my marriage that you don'tnecessarily end up together, but
allow room for that otherperson to to have some space and
some say into this.
Mary (23:07):
Yeah, we take on a lot.
I think it's partlysocialization.
And then we do hold it tightbecause, you know, it's kind of
that catch 22.
It's like, why isn't anybodyhelping me?
And it's like, well, I kind oftold them, like, I don't really
need help.
So that is that interestingthing of moving from that sort
(23:27):
of sense of control, or I'mgonna own this, do all this
invisible labor.
And then when the resentmentsets in, it's really like you
gotta look in the mirror andlike, well, we do teach people
how to treat us.
So yeah, I think that'sinteresting.
And as far as the limitingnarratives, I'm always still
fascinated by we can have 17compliments and one criticism.
(23:52):
And the criticism is not onlyin red, but it's in 38-point
font in our brains.
And so that is really somethingthat holds us back, focusing
on.
Kristan (24:03):
Well, it's interesting.
I for the very first time I dida group specifically designed
just for women.
There have been plenty of timeswhere I have offered groups
that have ended up being justwomen.
Um, but this was the first onethat was designed for women, and
it was a four-week thing wherewe met once a week.
(24:25):
And I think it was maybe thesecond or third week.
And I I like to kind of starteach of my groups with not only
some breathing just to kind ofget ourselves in the room, so to
speak, but also just kind of alittle bit of an icebreaker or
something and question.
And again, to kind of get usout of our wherever we were
(24:49):
rushing from, or you know,whatever else is on our brain.
And so I I asked this group ofwomen, I said, I'm gonna have us
all share a what is acompliment that you recently
received.
Mary (25:05):
Was it crickets?
Did you get crickets?
Kristan (25:07):
Oh my goodness, we got crickets.
And it was funny becauseeveryone is looking at me like,
what are you talking about?
Right.
And so I finally shared, and Iwas like, Well, I said, you
know, this came to me because Ihad just been on the phone with
a dear friend of mine, and shewas so sweet because she was um,
(25:32):
we were about to hang up andshe said, Oh, do you have just a
couple more minutes?
She said, I just want to tellyou how great my daughter was
the other day at her sportingevent.
And I was like, Yeah.
So, you know, she told me abouther daughter and and she goes,
Thank you so much.
(25:52):
She goes, I love that you'reone of the few people that I can
just brag about my daughterwith abandon.
I don't have to censor myselfat all.
And I was like, Oh, I lovethat.
I love being that personanytime.
I mean, you can call me up andjust do that, you know, and then
you can we can just talk aboutthat and we'll catch up another
(26:15):
time.
And I shared that with thegroup because I said that just
meant so much to me.
And then conversely, though,just I don't know, a day or two
ago, I was wearing, I don'tknow, maybe a skirt or
something, and somebody said, Ilike your skirt.
You know, and the first thing II wanted to say was, oh, this
(26:35):
old thing, like, yeah, yeah.
I mean, you know, this is likewearing pajamas, you know, this
is this is just nothing.
And and I caught myself and Ithought, oh my goodness, what
are you doing?
Just say thank you.
Just say thank you.
So I think for me, like thereare certain compliments that I
(26:58):
can really latch on to and I canjust bask in the good glow that
I get from it.
And then there are those otherones that are like, I'm, you
know, the minute the complimentis, I don't even let it land,
right?
I'm like, whoo, let me brushthis off.
Mary (27:16):
Yeah.
Deflect.
Yes.
Kristan (27:18):
And I think a lot of that for me is specifically
because my one of mygrandmothers was so had so many
mixed messages about appearance.
She grew up very, very poor.
She was very poor when she hadmy my mom and my uncle.
(27:39):
And cleanliness was going to bekind of the the way that she
could prove that she was poor.
Kind of it would it would behorrible to be poor and to
somehow, you know, that there beany dirt anywhere, any dust,
(28:00):
any dirt.
So I mean, like your house hadto be spotless, you had to be
spotless.
And so there was always thisemphasis on presenting kind of
spotless, right?
As a woman, I thinkspecifically, your hair better
be brushed and you're this andthat, but you can't draw too
(28:21):
much attention to yourself.
I will never forget one timeI'm picking her up.
This is later in life, and Ithink the kids are in the car,
and I had some lipstick on.
And I don't wear a ton ofmakeup, but I just had lipstick.
And she was like, What it, whatis that?
Like, what is what are youwearing?
And I was like, I'm just I'mwearing a little lipstick.
(28:44):
And she was, oh and then itlike a couple of minutes later,
she's like, she said, Well, Iguess it looks okay.
And you know, it was kind oflike, Who are you trying to, you
know, and I wasn't trying, Imean, I was just I was just
hanging out with her.
I mean, I wasn't like I was Iwasn't trying to draw any
(29:06):
attention to me.
I just I liked it.
I thought it was a prettycolor, you know, and it was just
such a funny, you know, so manymessages though about who you
can be and who you better notbe.
And we can tend to carry thosefor much longer than is
(29:28):
necessary.
And I know that for her, therewas an element of worrying about
a young woman getting too muchattention, right?
Or being subject to you know,violence.
Mary (29:42):
Yeah.
Kristan (29:43):
Yeah.
And that's the benefit ofgaining wisdom through time and
experience, is you realize shewasn't necessarily trying to be
hypercritical, right?
I mean, she just so much ofthis messaging that we get, you
know, it's it comes from a Placeof being worried about us or
(30:03):
trying to keep us safe.
Mary (30:05):
Yeah, and it ends up kind of it keeps us small.
I mean, I think those messagesreally keep us small.
So let's take a little sideroute now and try to get to
wrapping into what I startedwith in my intro, because you
work with spiritualautobiographies.
So what first of all, can youexplain a little what does that
(30:28):
mean?
Kristan (30:28):
Yes.
Discovering your spiritualautobiography is a workshop that
I recently developed, althoughthe spiritual autobiography as a
tool or exercise is somethingthat I came across many, many
years ago.
And I was facilitating smallgroups at a church.
(30:51):
And it was one of theactivities that I was meant to
do with my group.
The church provided thecurriculum and it it always
struck me as a really wonderfulexercise because it was asking a
question that was a little bit,you know, different than a lot
(31:14):
of the questions that we get.
And I think what is helpful iswhen we are asked questions that
are a little bit outside of theday-to-day, it gets us to
think, right?
I mean, we kind of were like,oh, I'm not gonna just pull out
my my regular response responsefor this, right?
(31:35):
I I actually am gonna, oh,okay, let me think about this.
And so over a year ago, I wastransitioning out of business
coaching and um had completed amaster's of education and had
been assisting in writing a bookwith a local nonprofit in my
town.
(31:55):
And I was just really, I waslike, oh, I'm so ready to do my
next thing, but I don't knowwhat my next thing is, which is
highly, highly unusual for mebecause I usually am like, oh, I
know right what my next thingis.
And I actually told myself, Isaid, okay, Kristen, you are
going to just sit with thisuncomfortable and unusual
(32:21):
feeling for yourself of youdon't know what is next.
So what came to me was I wantedto provide something that
allowed for people to connect,connect with themselves and
connect with others, and byextension, could possibly build
(32:43):
community, especially in a youknow, increasingly polarized and
fractured society.
And I thought, okay, so what isthe what's the little thing
that I can do?
And I thought, you know, I'mgonna create a workshop
discovering your spiritualautobiography.
So I put together a curriculumand I've massaged it a little
(33:06):
bit over time now.
And your spiritualautobiography, in the terms of
my workshop, it is a thousand to1500 word document, and we
share them aloud with eachother.
So, and the way that I describeit to people is I consider this
to be a living document.
(33:26):
In other words, that this isnot the final say, because I see
spirituality as something thatis continuingly changing,
growing, evolving, right?
And so this is just allow thisto be your snapshot in this
moment.
(33:46):
And for me, there have beentimes where I am reflecting on a
specific incident that has kindof informed my understanding of
that which is bigger thanmyself, right?
And and then there have beentimes where it's more of a story
(34:10):
of a series of experiences andand happenings.
I mean, for instance, one of myspiritual autobiographies is I
talked about having children.
And I was saying that one ofthe things that really surprised
me about my eight children isis in becoming a mother, a
parent, is how uniquelythemselves they were when they
(34:33):
arrived.
The other thing that completelyupended me was how much, well,
I expected to love them.
I did not expect to be so inlove with my children.
And I remember when my firstson was born, my first child, I
mean, it was like my heart justthe expansion that happened, it
(34:58):
I mean, it took my breath away.
And I remember on the eve of mysecond child was gonna be
induced.
And so I I the night before, Iremember looking at my my first
child thinking, oh my gosh, Ilove you so much.
And I'm about to justcompletely rock your world.
And I love you so much, like Idon't know what it's gonna be
(35:22):
like to have this second child.
And so then I have my secondchild, and what I learn in that
moment is our capacity for loveis is infinite.
Mary (35:33):
Yeah.
Kristan (35:34):
And that to me is a deeply spiritual moment, a a
spiritual lesson andfoundational to my understanding
of spirituality.
Mary (35:48):
Yeah.
So when someone is thinkingabout what is my spiritual
autobiography, do you start thatwith a question?
Or how do they think in termsof beyond like I was born and
then this happened, and thenthis happened.
So, so the spiritual part,explain that.
How do you how do they get tothat?
How do you help peopleconceptualize that part of it?
Kristan (36:10):
So it is a workshop.
Either it is done over thecourse of several weeks where
you're meeting once a week, andor it is more of a retreat style
immersive workshop.
So I am not throwing peopleinto the deep end and saying,
write your spiritualautobiography, right?
So where we start is we reallystart with, and as you mentioned
(36:34):
at the beginning, there is alot of um commingling sometimes
in terms of our language andalso even our understanding
between religion andspirituality.
So right from the get-go, weare within the group for each of
(36:55):
ourselves and in the group, weare really investigating, you
know, what it what do weconsider religious and what do
we consider spiritual?
I have led groups where peopleare religion and spirituality
for them is hand in glove.
And that's just the way it is.
And I would say more often thannot, as we get into it and we
(37:20):
start thinking about it, it'skind of it's like a Venn
diagram, right?
I mean, there's you've got yourreligious bucket and you've got
your spirituality bucket.
And there's moments where they,I mean, prayer, for instance,
prayer often can be part ofboth.
So there are these places wherethere is the overlap, but we
(37:44):
really dig into what thedifferences are so that people
can begin to, for the purposesof this workshop and this
investigation, maybe let go ofthe religion piece of it and
lean into the spirituality pieceof it.
(38:06):
But I do think that language isvery powerful.
So we do look at one of theexercises we do is I I love for
us to pick words.
And sometimes we pickspirituality, sometimes we pick
religion, but we even pick wordslike sin or heaven or prayer.
I have a list of words that Ito get people thinking, and I
(38:28):
have people look up kind of theacademic definition, right?
What is the dictionarydefinition of this?
And if they're super curious,they can kind of do a little
digging and look up where itcame from and even kind of what
that um, you know, in otherlanguages, is there nuance to
(38:49):
it?
And then I have people reflecton what is their understanding
of that word.
Because as I mentioned earlier,with success being one of those
words that we need to definewhat that means for us outside
of what the societal or culturaldefinition is.
(39:10):
It would be limiting to onlythink about the definitions that
have been delivered to us.
Mary (39:18):
Yeah, yeah.
So you help people go beyondthat and you kind of call it
mapping hope.
Kristan (39:22):
I do.
I do so we we do a series ofdifferent exercises.
And so we're we do, we diveinto the words to start with,
and we kind of start diggingaround into people's religious
backgrounds.
I mean, even if you have notnecessarily been raised in a
very specific faith tradition, Imean, we live in a society
(39:47):
where religion is around us.
I mean, it's it's in art, it'sin literature.
So so even if you're saying I'mnot a religious person, it
still is it you've you've bumpedup against it somewhere.
So we do that.
We also then do some differentexercises reflecting on the you
(40:10):
had mentioned kind of, well,when I was this age, this is
what happened.
And so I have an exercise wherewe we do a little bit of a
chronological, but it's a littlemore free form just to allow
for memories to be brought forthwithout the structure of a
strict kind of chronological umsequencing.
(40:32):
But what ends up happening whenyou go through these different
reflections and sharing, becausewe're also sharing out as a
group, is you kind of yourealize I'm still here.
I'm here.
And I've had these experiences,I've had these heartbreaks and
(40:54):
heartaches, and they're stillpart of me, right?
But I'm still here.
Mary (40:58):
So that's the hopeful part.
Kristan (41:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I I feel like as long asfor myself, as long as I am
still living and breathing, andthis is also what I attempt to
share with my participants, isyour story is never oh, it's not
over.
And I think that when you takethe time to reflect on your past
(41:24):
and your stories and theemotional landscape, you do
realize that there have beenthese twists and turns to your
story that you never could haveanticipated.
And I think that also that is aplace where we can recognize
hope as something to hold on to.
Mary (41:46):
Yeah, because so often things that we would say were a
failure, or I don't like theword mistake.
I don't really think there are,I think there's misjudgment.
I don't know about mistake, butI think that's often the point
where something changes becauseyou're challenged.
You, you know, something youthought was going to be a
(42:06):
certain way was not a certainway.
And then it's like, oh, what doI do now?
And that's where reinventionhappens.
And I think that's veryhopeful.
But so many interesting themes.
So let's wrap up with youtelling us where to find you.
And if there's anything otherthan your spiritual
autobiography workshops that youdo, just share with us how you
(42:29):
can help people.
Kristan (42:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Happy to, Mary.
You can find me on my website,kristanswan.com.
I do focus primarily onin-person workshops and
experiences.
So, and if you are interestedin doing that where you are,
just let me know and we canfigure that out.
And on my website, there are alist of events that are
(42:52):
upcoming.
Um, one of the other thingsthat I do is I sell a journal
that's called Spaghetti on theWall.
And this is a journal withprompts.
And I really love this as ameans of developing a habit of
discernment.
I think that one of the bestthings that happens when you use
(43:14):
spaghetti on the wall on aregular basis, and I I do it
every day, is reallydecluttering your mind as well
as really getting some awarenessand um some recognition of
patterns and decision making andthings like that.
So I always say that I am notin the business of changing
(43:39):
people.
That's just not what I do, butI do think that awareness is a
wonderful thing.
And then you get to choose whatyou do with that.
Mary (43:50):
Yeah, I love that.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here.
And I will put all those, Iwill link everything in the show
notes so people can still haveaccess.
But thank you for being here,Kristen.
Thank you, Mary.
You're welcome.
And I want to thank everyonefor listening.
If you enjoyed today's show,please take a second to scroll
to the bottom of the show pageand leave a quick review.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
(44:12):
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
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