November 20, 2025 • 42 mins
Thoughts or comments? Send us a text!
What if shrinking isn’t your personality—it’s your programming? We sit down with author Candice Shepherd to unpack the hidden codes that keep so many of us stuck in people pleasing, perfectionism, and pretending to be fine. From the moment her marriage hit a crossroads to the day she chose her truth over approval, Candice maps a path that is brave, messy, and deeply human.
We explore how the nervous system reacts before the mind can catch up, why a slammed cupboard can send you straight into freeze, and how to move from fight or flight into neutrality so choice becomes possible again. Candice shares the two core beliefs that ran her life—“not enough” and “unsafe”—and how those scripts fueled fawning, over-responsibility, and the illusion of control. Together we break down practical tools: free-writing to surface the inner critic, breath and orientation to regulate the amygdala, and small, embodied experiments that help you rediscover what you actually want.
The conversation gets real about relationships, too. We talk about stepping back so kids can struggle and find their voice, transforming partnerships by choosing each other from a healed place, and letting go of friendships that only loved the version of you that abandoned herself. Healing isn’t linear; it’s a spiral. There are setbacks, grief that arrives years late, and days when choosing yourself feels terrifying. But on the other side is alignment, potency, and a life that fits.
If you’re ready to stop shrinking, rewrite the story, and own your space with clear boundaries and calm confidence, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to tell us the one code you’re ready to disrupt.
You can information about Candice's book and her services HERE.
Sign up for the launch team for my book, Nature Knows, and get free insider news and surprises at https://maryrothwell.net/natureknows
Comments about this episode? Suggestions for a future episode? Wanna be a guest? Email me directly at NSVpodcast@gmail.com.
Follow me on Facebook and Instagram, and check out my website!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
Y'all know that one of themantras of this show is take up
your space.
We do that in a million littleways, all of which are nuggets
to be mined from my episodes.
(00:49):
But rarely do I talk directlyabout how to cut right to the
heart of it.
I talked about this in my veryfirst episode back in January.
However, today I'm guessing myguest will be much clearer about
our barriers to truly standingin our space and how to push
through them to find ourfoundation and live more
authentically.
I'm gonna keep this introuncharacteristically short so we
(01:13):
can get to the meat of this.
Candace Lynn is the author ofAwaken, a book that doesn't
teach you who to be, it remindsyou who the hell you are.
Through raw storytelling,subconscious reprogramming, and
the occasional cuss word, whichI love, Candace helps people
break the beliefs that havetheir lives running on
autopilot.
She speaks to those who feellike they have outgrown people
(01:35):
pleasing, perfectionism, andpretending to be fine.
And if you listen at all tothis podcast, you know those are
common themes.
Candace is here to helplisteners unravel emotional
coding, reclaim their power, andrewrite the internal narratives
they didn't realize they wereliving by.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Candace.
Thank you for having me.
(01:55):
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah, I think this is going tobe fun.
So, okay, this is a big topicand it goes to the heart of
pretty much everything I talkabout.
I like, though, to have gueststalk to me first about how did
you end up where you are today?
So if you could start with yourjourney, like what moments do
you feel stand out for you thatsort of brought you to where you
(02:18):
are sitting here today?
Candice (02:20):
Oh, yeah, that's that could be a whole episode on its
own, but we'll read her digestversion of sure.
Okay.
Um, so you know, typicalgrowing up, you know, I was
married at 20.
We have we've been married for19 years.
We have three beautifuldaughters, and just through our
own life path and ups and downs,and um, you know, trying to
(02:41):
make a marriage work in today'ssociety, learning what works and
what doesn't.
Um, we we had a few years ofvery high conflict, high, high
conflict, quite a few years.
Um, and went through coachingand doing all the things and
couples retreats, right?
And everything would be goodfor a while.
(03:02):
And then we'd revert back towhat what we knew, which was
conflict.
And there just became it, therewas a pivotal moment um early
this year where we had just doneten thousand dollars worth of
coaching, and and somehow wereverted back.
(03:23):
And I was like, you know, thisis I just felt in my bones that
this is a moment right now whereI choose.
And it gets me emotional.
It was one of the scariestmoments of my life where I had
to decide that regardless ofwhat happened with my marriage,
(03:44):
I was gonna choose me.
Yeah, I was going to choose tolive by my truth and live
authentically, regardless ofwhat that meant.
And it was terrifying.
Um, and lucky for me, I'mmarried to a wonderful man who
was always, you know, even whenwe were in high conflict, has
always been committed to growthwith me and growing and changing
(04:06):
and becoming better parents,becoming who we're meant to be.
And so as I stepped into me, Iwas afraid.
I'm like, regardless of whathappens, I'm not shrinking
anymore, I'm not people pleasinganymore, I'm going to walk into
my truth.
And everything I feel likechanged from that moment.
Um, I was fortunate, like Isaid, being married to a
(04:26):
wonderful man.
He's always wanted me to beauthentically me.
We just had all these codesbumping into each other.
And so that was the moment.
That was it.
It was all this just the pastand the conflict and everything
led up to this moment where Isaid, I'm I'm done.
I'm done shrinking.
It's not, it's not serving me,it's not serving my family.
(04:48):
And that's where everythingunraveled.
And I started following mytruth, and I wrote the book, and
and here we are.
Mary (04:56):
Yeah.
So you talked about severalthings that I want to asterisk
and come back to.
So, you know, I think it'sinteresting that you talk about
how scary it is to take up yourspace.
And I say that all the time.
And I think sometimes peopledon't, well, sometimes it
(05:16):
doesn't resonate, but I feellike for most women, especially,
it does because you talkedabout the narratives and you
used the word shrinking, whichis, of course, in the title of
my podcast.
So, you know, we do shrink.
We are, we I don't think westart out that way, and we can
get to that because I know youbelieve that too.
I think when we're born, wenaturally know who we are.
(05:37):
And then we start to get thosesubtle messages like, well,
that's weird, or why are youdoing that?
Or, and then we, especially ifwe're really perceptive, we pick
that up and then we chop thatpart of ourselves off or we hide
it somewhere.
So when we finally get to thisage where we're like, wait a
(05:57):
minute, I if I don't liveauthentically for me, then I'm
not being authentic in anything.
Where do you think the fearcomes from?
Candice (06:07):
I believe it's, you know, my identity was wrapped up
in being the people pleaser andbeing the shrinking, right?
And we've got that ego, well,if I'm not that, then what am I?
And that's terrifying.
You know, so the fear is I Igenuinely thought there was a
there's a chance that my familydoesn't love this non, this
version of me that don't abandonherself, right?
(06:29):
What if I end up alone and it'sterrifying if to lose
everything that I've built foralmost 20 years by choosing me?
That was the fear for me, whichthe fear was a lie.
My family loves me.
They want me to be me, theywant to see me happy, but that
wasn't in there in that identitycrumbling space of my brain.
(06:50):
I thought that I was gonna loseeverything.
Mary (06:53):
Which again is interesting.
After doing all that work andknowing that you had a partner.
I mean, I when I use the wordpartner, I truly think sometimes
we truly have a partner.
Sometimes we just use the word,but often when somebody's
walking with us, they are ourpartner.
And so even as someone who'shad children and navigated a lot
of this and put time into it,you could still be afraid that
(07:18):
what you need to do is going tobe alienating to them.
So you've used the word code.
Can you give an example ofwhether it's with someone you
worked with generally or foryou?
What do what do those codeslook like and how do they
operate?
Candice (07:35):
Oh, I'll use the not enough code for me, um, because
that is a lot of I'm not I'm notenough and I'm unsafe, is where
a lot of my uh programs werestemming from.
And whether where they camefrom, you know, could who knows?
Early on, we're we're taughtthese things.
We pick things up, like wesaid.
But so that was how I lived mylife.
(07:56):
I'm not enough, I'm unsafe.
And so I'm constantly trying toprove my enoughness externally
and be everything to everybodyand keep everything and then the
unsafe.
And so I have to make sureeverybody's emotions are
regulated, never looking backand asking me if I'm okay, just
making sure everybody else isokay.
And so we have these codesrunning, and they the symptoms
(08:19):
are our nervous system goinginto fight or flight, right?
When it when somebody slams acupboard, it's like, oh shoot,
right?
And then the program is thatexternal um, I'm trying to think
of the word, but where you'reexternally trying to source your
safety and your your enoughnessand your worth, that's where
the whole web just starts to getall tangled up.
Mary (08:41):
Yeah.
So you mentioned the slammingof a cupboard.
Let me expand on that a littlebit.
So if that was part ofpotentially someone's childhood
where anger came out in slammingthings, throwing things, we
learned that a loud sound, aloud, sudden sound, typically
means somebody's mad at us.
Candice (08:59):
Right?
Yes, yep.
And I would go into instantfreeze, right?
Our re our nervous systemresponds within a nanosecond.
You're within fight, flight,freezer, fawn within a
nanosecond.
And so it's not, it's it's alot more intricate than just
saying, Oh, I'm not gonna, I'mnot gonna let a covered slam
bother me anymore.
Mary (09:17):
Yeah, right.
Candice (09:18):
It's noticing, oh, I'm frozen.
Okay, I feel unsafe.
Let me breathe, you know, andstarting to unravel it that way.
Just recognizing that thesecodes take off before in your
body before your your thinkingbrain even realizes what's
happened.
Mary (09:36):
Yeah, they're coded by the amygdala, which is, you know, I
call it, and people have heardthis several times, that I call
it the smoke alarm.
So it's that smoke alarm thatis very sensitive.
So when the toast is burning,the house is not burning down,
but the amygdala wants to keepus safe.
So it tells us the house isburning down.
And by being aware of that,that's where you're saying,
(09:58):
like, figure out when you havethis reaction, where did that
come from?
And I love that you mentionedall four Fs.
So they're they're not cusswords.
What we're talking about isfight, flight, freeze, or fawn.
And we're we're very familiarwith fight or flight.
The freeze, I think, is when,especially women, because I work
(10:21):
with a lot of college students,and within that, you're going
to get sexual assaults.
You have a lot of young peopletogether in a in a small
community.
And that would be the thingthat would cause women later to
feel guilt or shame.
Why did I freeze?
Why didn't I do more?
(10:41):
And you're you're making thepoint.
You can no more change thatnatural reaction.
Now we can learn from it, butthat natural way that we respond
to something that scares us or,you know, that that is
startling, that is natural.
And so that was a thing wherewhen it's like a bunny, if
(11:01):
you've ever noticed a bunny getsscared and it's like, why is it
not running?
Well, it feels like I'm safe ifI stay small.
And so that's exactly kind ofwhat you're talking about.
Like shrinking in thosesituations makes you feel safe
and it might keep you safe, butlater it does not work for you.
Candice (11:18):
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
And that freeze, I as soon as Iwould thaw, I would go right
into fawn.
Right.
And so it's not this linearthing where you need to
recognize, you know, we kind ofcycle through all of them, one
of them more than the othersometimes, and learning to
regulate through that process,get that prefrontal cortex back
(11:40):
on, right?
Start breathing and regulatingthrough it is where we can
really start to make majorchange.
Mary (11:48):
So before we go on, can you explain fawn?
Because I think that's one wedon't often hear.
So people might not be familiarwith that reaction.
Candice (11:56):
Yeah.
So that for me was my peoplepleaser, right?
Let's say the cupboard slammedand I finally thaw and I go out
there.
I'm like, okay, who needs what?
Who's mad?
Are is everybody okay?
Do you need oh, did it did thisbreak?
Let me clean it up.
It's it's just externallyfocusing on everybody around
you, making sure they're okay,and never ever clocking in with
(12:16):
yourself to see what you need.
Mary (12:20):
And so I think the beginning, and you explained
this a little bit, you were kindenough to give me a chapter of
your book.
So one of the things that youtalk about is being aware of the
reaction to start with, becausewe all react in a certain way
for a reason.
So if we're irritated by loudnoises or, you know, something,
(12:40):
the way somebody looks at usmakes us feel scared and we're
not sure why.
You sort of start with the ideaof, you know, be aware of that
and reflect on it, right?
Candice (12:49):
Yes, yep.
I call it looking for thesymptoms of a code, right?
Those codes have have ranunchecked.
I believe we're seven whenthey're when they're cemented in
our brain.
And so we aren't attuned torecognizing the code, but we can
start to become attuned to ourbody and recognize when
something's off, when when ourchest is tight and things like
(13:12):
that, and starting to get moreinto the body because I like to
get people out of their mind.
Our thoughts are our cage.
That's where the the littlechatter box is going off saying,
I'm unsafe, they don't love me.
I'm, you know, I need to runaway.
If we can get back into ourbody, find those symptoms, love
ourselves, we can start touncover those codes from the
(13:32):
body up.
unknown (13:33):
Yeah.
Mary (13:34):
Well, and I think sometimes when the how do I want
to say, when the narrative isrunning, I don't know it.
Well, I'll say in my experiencewith clients, they don't often
hear that or perceive it.
It's the actual body reaction.
Well, I they can't get past thefeeling of anxiety or the worry
(13:55):
or all of that heart-poundingfeeling to actually access what
is my brain telling me aboutthat?
Give some hints.
How do you get from that body,which I think we do need to
connect with and calm?
But then how do we start tohear what that inner critic, the
narrative, the code, whateverwe want to call it, what is that
(14:16):
that is telling us?
How do we get there?
Candice (14:19):
For me, it's it's always from a place of
neutrality.
I don't want to go up there ifI'm not neutral.
I don't want, I don't want to.
And so it's always gettingneutral first.
For me, journaling, I can freewriting has always been great
for me.
And and I can just writewhatever comes out and then look
at it.
Oh, wow, I really feel like I'mnot enough.
(14:40):
There's little clues in here,you know, they never listen to
me or I never do enough.
There's little clues in there.
If we can listen to it from aneutral space and not get swept
up by it, we can really learn alot about ourselves.
Mary (14:56):
And there's two parts as I see it.
And again, I pulled this sortof out of your first chapter
that you shared.
The first part is what you'resaying that what do we tell
ourselves?
So someone does something, andof course, we have that
emotional or physical reaction,but then we're telling ourselves
a story about it.
No one cares about me.
They always do this.
(15:17):
So the first thing, obviously,is be aware of those absolutes.
Always and never are rarelytrue.
But we're starting to tellourselves this story.
We recognize it, we feel, okay,they're acting some type of
way.
And, you know, it is they don'tlike me or they're judging me
or those kinds of things.
Candice (15:37):
Yes, yes.
And it's interesting when wehave the realization that they,
the other person, probably hasthese thoughts going on in their
head as well, right?
That, oh, they think I'm notenough, right?
We're all just these littleinner critics outwardly
expressing our wounds onto eachother.
And that's that's just where Iwanted to start.
My life, I did all the things.
(15:58):
I took all the classes, I readall the books, but and things
would get good for a littlewhile, and then I'd be back to
where I was, and I'd be back tobeing afraid and and wanting to
stay small and not wanting to beseen.
And so for me, it was reallyjust time to get to the root.
What is this?
What is this?
And so, really just recognizingand listening, it's it's a
(16:18):
total journey of self-discovery,radical self-honesty.
You know, you have to be honestwith yourself.
And the number one thing that Imade sure was that I never
shamed myself.
I never shamed myself for myresponse to my traumas or for
anything, because that there'sno growth in shame, right?
(16:39):
That sticks us right back inthat victim guilt mentality,
just spinning out in it.
And so meeting it withcuriosity and compassion and
processing, you know, maybe thelittle resentment that came up
for what put the code there inthe first place, learning to let
that go.
And I have just for the firsttime, I'm 39, I've created a
(17:00):
relationship with myself throughself-discovery.
Mary (17:03):
Well, and again, it's interesting that you were doing
work in your partnership and asa parent, and then this started
to become very apparent to youthat wait a minute, I've sort of
bypassed the most importantperson in this whole thing,
which is myself.
Can you explain to us and youshare only as much as you want,
but in your marriage, how didthat come out for you?
(17:24):
That unhealthy or misalignedcoding?
Candice (17:29):
Um, for a lot of me, I recognize I'm like, well,
everything will be fine onceJason learns to control his
anger.
You know, everything will befine.
Like, we'll be fine once Jasoncan change this, once he can
heal his childhood, we're gonnabe fine.
And so he did, right?
He he learned to he does notget angry anymore.
(17:49):
He's healed things from hischildhood, he's grown, but then
here I still am going into fawnand freeze and and panic mode
because I was so focused on himneeding the healing.
I forgot that I needed to healas well.
Mary (18:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anything that we go through aswe're growing up, it's gonna
revisit us in our most intimaterelationships.
And I and I used to say that tomy college students like, now's
the time.
Now is the time to get yourselfhealthy.
And because I think life willkeep reminding you, it'll keep
(18:25):
turning the volume up.
Like it sounds like for you,it's like you tried, and then
you tried again, and then youtried again.
And finally, there wassomething that was like,
Candace, I think you need tomaybe look in the mirror and
start to wade through some ofthis stuff.
Candice (18:38):
Yes, absolutely, you know, and it was the moment that
moment that I talked about,that pivotal moment, was I was
so locked into that potency andpotential that we talked a
little bit about in my book,that I thought anything that
isn't this isn't me.
This is me.
I this is my essence.
I feel powerful, I feelvibrant, I feel alive.
(19:01):
And obviously there's still upsand downs or human, but I just
made a commitment to check inwith that truth on a
moment-to-moment basis, minuteby minute, hour by hour.
Am I living in line with this?
You know, am I trying tocontrol the situation?
I don't want my kids to fight,I don't want this to happen.
How do I feel in my body whenI'm doing that?
(19:24):
I don't feel potent, I don'tfeel my power.
I feel small and like I need tokeep everybody happy.
And so learning to lock intothat potency that I felt when I
was a kid.
I I always believed I was hereto do something special, I'm
here to help people, I'm here todo something amazing.
And locking back into that wasvery emotional.
(19:46):
I don't ever want to let thatgo.
And so now that's just how Ilive my life.
Is this an alignment?
You know, if if I'm about tohave a conversation with my
husband, lock into that firstbecause that is a very loving,
kind part of me.
And so now I'm just developingthis relationship with my
potency and learning to liveauthentically through that.
And it doesn't includeshrinking, it just doesn't.
(20:08):
Yeah.
Mary (20:09):
And I can already hear, because again, I've heard sort
of the protests from clientsover 35 years.
I'm guessing there are peopleout there that are thinking,
Candace, I don't have time tofocus on myself.
I have to, again, take care ofa family.
I have a job, I'm married, I'mworking, all of these things.
What would you say to somebodythat's thinking that?
Candice (20:32):
Well, believing there's never enough time in the day is
a code.
Right.
And if you're running thatcode, you probably say yes to
things you want to say no to.
You run yourself into the dirt,you guilt yourself for rest,
you probably guilt yourself fortaking time for yourself.
So it sounds like to me thatmight be something you need to
pencil in at the top of yourpriority list and start make
(20:54):
because nothing's going to, Iwon't say nothing, that's too
absolute.
But the your life is more thanlikely not going to go down the
path you want it to if you don'tstart, maybe wake up five
minutes earlier and whether youlike to journal, meditate, or
maybe turn the news off on yourway to work or whatever it is,
(21:14):
and start penciling time in foryou and start believing that you
have time for yourself becausethat's a code.
Yeah.
Mary (21:23):
And it's also to circle back a little bit, I think it's
that fear that if I really startto stand in my space and
sometimes make boundaries andmaybe not do all the things I
used to do, that it's going tonegatively affect my family.
Candice (21:41):
Yes.
Yeah, that's was something Ihad to think about because I've
been their mother and wife foralmost 20 years.
Everything will fall apart if Icome out different, right?
And I never realized, you know,when we would have
conversations, the the wordcontrolling would come up, and
that would be the hill I woulddie on.
(22:02):
I am not controlling.
There's no way.
I am the most backbending,people-pleasing person ever.
But what I realized was thatwas my way of control.
That was my way of controllingeverything around me, so I felt
safe.
So I felt like I was enough andI was worthy.
And so finally admitting tomyself, wow, I really do have a
(22:24):
control problem.
Mary (22:25):
Yeah.
Candice (22:26):
But it's not controlling what this person
does, it's controlling myenvironment.
What would happen if I didn't?
What if I just let my kids havea conversation that sounds a
little like it might go sidewaysand I breathe into my nervous
system and see what happens?
I thought the world would burndown.
Mary (22:46):
Yeah.
Candice (22:47):
But it turns out, you know, kids are meant to have
conversations that their mothersaren't.
You know, yeah.
They're learning things by mestepping back.
And it's been beautiful.
Mary (22:59):
Well, you brought up something that I love this flip
side of the coin, because thisis what a lot of people, in
fact, I just was recentlytalking to a client about a lot
of these themes.
And we have this idea that whenwe take care of everything and
we keep the road smooth, thatthat's keeping people's lives
(23:20):
happy.
And it's what it's really doingin some cases is giving the
message, I don't really trustyou to take care of your own
situation.
And also, especially withchildren, we have to allow them
sometimes to flounder and find asolution and let it be messy.
Because when they aren't underyour roof anymore, then they'll
(23:43):
discover it and then they won'thave, you know, I always talk
about nature and young trees.
They need the wind to maketheir roots deeper and stronger.
And if they don't have that, ifwe protect them, then when the
first wind comes along, they'regoing to just break.
So I think that flip side is soimportant for people to
consider because it's alsofreeing, right?
(24:05):
Because now it's like, oh, waita minute.
This isn't really about me.
This is also about myenvironment and letting the
people in my environment be whothey need to be.
Candice (24:17):
Oh, absolutely.
That has been another beautifulside effect of me, you know,
choosing into myself.
And because I was such a peoplepleaser, and I never learned to
speak my needs, I never evenlearned how to find what my
needs were.
My girls, you know, nobodyneeded to speak their needs
(24:37):
because I was 10 steps ahead ofeverybody.
I knew what everybody neededand I was taking care of it.
And now I've kind of revertedback and I've told it my family,
you know, I'm going to wait foryou guys to ask me for what you
need and what you want.
And it's not been easy on myend, right?
It's a lot of breathing, andyeah, but they are they're
(25:00):
starting to to speak up and andtell me what they need, and and
it's it's been great, you know.
My oldest is I have a 20, 17,and 13-year-old, and they need
to learn how to speak theirneeds.
And I was I was crippling themin that way.
Mary (25:16):
Yeah.
So when you decided, okay, Ineed to allow these things to
happen, you also mentionedwanting to sort of make
decisions based on what you wantand need.
But when you spend a lot ofyears focusing on what other
people want and need, it I thinkit's really challenging to be
(25:36):
able to figure that out foryourself, which maybe sounds
weird to some people, but howdid you start to do that?
Candice (25:44):
Right.
It was interesting because I Iliterally have no idea what I
like.
And when it comes time to eat,I don't have it.
I don't know.
I don't know.
That part was completely turnedoff.
And it's been kind of fun.
I am so an advocate ofembodiment.
And so if there's choices infront of me, let's take it down
(26:05):
to the easy.
Where do we want to eat?
What one inside me makes mefeel excited?
You know, do I feel moreexcited?
It's just, it's this crazyprocess of getting to learn
about yourself and see whatlights you up.
Did something give me a flutterin my belly?
Did something make me feel, ohit's it sounds simple, but it's
it's a huge task and it's fun,honestly.
Mary (26:28):
And it's that other part of being aware of your body when
something happens that alarmsyou or creates that anxiety or
heart pounding.
The other part of that is whatdo you feel excited about, or
what is something that yourealize?
Oh, I'm I'm sort of lookingforward to this.
And instead of saying, Well,you decide, it's like, wait a
minute, let me try to thinkabout maybe what I want to have
(26:51):
for dinner or what I want to do.
So you're discovering this foryourself, right?
Yeah, what did you figure, whatdid you figure out?
Like, what do you now thinkabout?
Okay, this is these are thethings I want to prioritize just
for me.
Candice (27:05):
I'm really liking qigong and love it, you know.
I've always been like a heavyweight lifter, you know, grinded
out, all this.
And I'm like, wow, I reallyenjoy Qi Gong.
This is interesting, you know.
And starting to talk about I'mturning 40 in February, and
we're kind of like, I've neverhad a birthday where I said what
(27:27):
I wanted.
You know, I'm like, I don'tknow, you guys just I'll love
anything.
It don't matter.
It's okay, you know.
Um, like I kind of want to goto the beach.
I want to find, I want to, Iwant to get to the ocean, you
know, and just these littlethings.
It's been a lot of work.
I'm not saying this is easy,it's still a process for me.
I I have to journal a lot ofthe times.
(27:48):
Um, and when I first startedthe process of writing the book
and coming on podcasts,terrified, terrified because
being seen was clopped as unsafebecause I have an you know, I'm
an unsafe code.
And now I just recognize I'mgetting ready this morning.
I just I can't wait to come onand talk with you.
And and that is so differentfor me.
(28:11):
That is such a 180 from who Iused to be.
Mary (28:15):
Yeah.
So I'm gonna take a little sidelane here because, you know,
sometimes people have prettysevere traumas.
And, you know, we develop theseways of responding to keep us
safe.
And then we reach a point, mostpeople end up in my office when
they realize what they didnaturally doesn't work anymore.
(28:37):
So I want to also be carefulabout when we talk about sort of
overcorrecting, that it this isnot simple.
And sometimes people will say,like, oh, just get over it.
So this idea of toxicpositivity, which I'm a little,
I mean, I have a couple thoughtsabout that, but I do think
sometimes people can simplifysomething that is not complex.
(28:58):
So I know you're not doingthis.
I want to talk about this alittle bit though.
When people feel like this isso ingrained in me, this
reaction of whatever it is, likeirritation or like snapping out
at somebody or defendingthings.
What would you say about that?
When if something is so theyjust believe that they there's
(29:18):
no change?
Like, I think it's very hardfor them to change or they
dismiss it like, you know,you're making this easy.
It's I just can't say smile andeverything's gonna be great.
Candice (29:28):
Oh, yes, a hundred percent.
Um, and I want to make it verywell known that this was not
easy.
It it's I broke it down into asimple step by step in my book,
but it's not easy.
It is it's the hardest thingI've ever done.
(29:48):
Like I said, that moment when Idecided I was gonna choose
myself, I literally felt like Iwas burning my marriage and my
family to the ground.
Um, and it's moment by moment,it's it's literally.
Coming back, it's regulatingyour nervous system, it's help
making yourself feel safe inareas that you've never felt
(30:08):
safe in, you know, areas of yourmind, things going on.
And I was, I'm just coming outof, I would say, 12 years of
disassociating.
I lost my brother, um,devastating, tragic, and I just
dissociated for 12 years, iswhat I can call it, right?
I was still here, I was stilldoing the things, and the
(30:30):
process of coming back to myselfafter disassociating for so
long, never really processingthe grief of losing my brother,
never allowing myself to feelthe pain is definitely not
something that was easy, but itwas necessary.
It was necessary if I wanted tohave a more fulfilled enriched
life.
And I believe that I did somuch nervous system healing that
(30:55):
I was finally at a place whereI could feel that grief.
I could finally accept it andfeel it.
And so the it's it's a process,and it's not always a solo
process.
You know, thank goodness thereare amazing counselors and
therapists out there like forpeople like you, because this
isn't always a solo process.
(31:15):
It can run deep and beingguided is is beautiful, but I
it's definitely worth taking thesteps, and even if it's just a
little bit today, like maybe Iwant to turn left instead of
turn right, right?
Just starting to play withthese little things.
Maybe I always get the vanillalatte because that's what I've
always done, but maybe I want totry.
Just starting to play withlittle things, just and learning
(31:38):
to feel that flutter ofexcitement in your belly again
is such a great starting point.
Mary (31:43):
Oh, I love those those suggestions because you've said
a couple of times it's not easy.
And here's one of the funnythings in the world a lot of
things are simple, but thatdoesn't mean they're easy.
So you said you break it down,and we can say, okay, there's X
number of steps here, but eachof those steps is first of all
unique to each person, and it'snot linear.
So you could go three stepsforward feeling great the next
(32:07):
day.
You're like, holy crap, I'mlike right back where I started,
right?
So it's not linear either.
Candice (32:13):
Very not linear.
Yes.
That's what the book lays itout in this linear process.
But you know, you're spottingthe code, um, disrupting the
code, that's where you say, Wow,okay, first I had awareness,
and I the disruption is I wantto change this, getting neutral,
reclaiming and embodiment, butsometimes it's in neutrality
(32:35):
where you spot the code, or youknow, sometimes it's an
embodiment when you say, I wantto disrupt this, and always just
being gentle with yourself.
It's a cycle, everything iscyclical, right?
And I think I think the beliefthat anything is linear has
really hurt us as a society forsure.
Mary (32:54):
Yeah, a lot of things we believe that, you know, we just
start and then we keepprogressing and progressing, and
we do progress, but it cansometimes look more like maybe a
roller coaster or you know,like a ball of yarn instead of a
straight road.
Um, and so I think the otherpart that you brought up was,
(33:15):
you know, we have we have thecode and then it's what are we
saying to ourselves?
So it is like, okay, thispeople are always ignoring me or
they think what I'm sayingisn't important.
And, you know, sometimes you'reright.
You know, sometimes you'll seesomebody doing something and you
are 100% reading thatcorrectly.
But I think that last step thatagain you allude to in what
(33:38):
I've read already is that's notabout you.
That does not have to defineanything about you.
It sort of defines somethingabout that person, and you
decide what you do with theknowledge.
Candice (33:51):
Yeah, yes.
Your reaction to it is aboutyou.
Mary (33:54):
Yeah.
Candice (33:54):
Right.
And that's the beautiful thingabout this process of healing um
and getting to know yourselfand locking into your truth,
because now you can walk awayfrom things that aren't for you,
right?
It if that doesn't feel inalignment, if this person's
always treating you like this,it's not about you, it's
something going on in them, butthat don't mean you have to
(34:16):
partake in it.
That don't mean you have toparticipate.
You can walk away.
Mary (34:21):
Yeah.
And and that is the empoweringpart that recognizing it, but
then not allowing it to definesomething about you.
So you talked a lot about beinga caretaker and a people
pleaser.
And that's hard when peoplestep back a little bit from that
because they think, well, myworth is really based to
(34:41):
everyone else on what I do forthem.
So there's that scary thing.
When I stop doing for them, amI going to then become
worthless?
And that pattern is not, again,about your worth.
Your worth is consistent, itstays the same.
If other people react andthey're upset or they're mad,
(35:03):
that's not your responsibility.
Candice (35:06):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I talk about, you know, inthe embodiment phase, not
everybody's going to throw aparade that you that you've
healed.
You know, nope.
There's a lot of people outthere that that loved the the
version of me that abandonedherself to keep everybody happy.
And so I just got to make thedecision.
Am I do I want thatrelationship or do I want
(35:29):
myself?
Am I gonna choose me?
And now I'm always gonna chooseme.
Mary (35:36):
Well, and you find out who's really in your life to be
in your life, and that again, itis very scary in the beginning
because you're talking aboutyour marriage, but what you
discover is my god, this is evenbetter than I thought.
Candice (35:50):
Yeah, yep.
Yeah, now my now my kids get towatch two healed people have a
relationship because they chooseeach other, right?
Not because we're trauma bondedtogether and we're on this
cycle and it's just this thing.
It's we've both done the workand we've healed and we come
together because we choose to.
And we've walked away fromfriendships that that weren't
(36:12):
serving us, that you know, lovedthe abandoning part of myself
and giving them that empoweringthem to show them that they can
do the same thing.
Find somebody that wants toheal and grow with you, find
somebody that wants you to beyou and they want to be them,
and you guys just work togetherand walk away from from whoever
does align with that.
(36:32):
Yeah.
Mary (36:33):
Yeah, and not and don't stay in in someone's life, a
friendship or whatever, justbecause it's been X number of
years.
You know, I've heard that too.
Well, my gosh, we've beenfriends since we were five.
It's like, well, maybe thatmeans the friendship has run its
course.
You know, I think that's theother part about it is you you
do, and I'm gonna circle back tothe beginning.
We do know inside what is rightfor us.
(36:56):
And it is all of that stuff andthe fear that gets in the way
and creates a barrier to movingthrough that into what is
authentic.
Candice (37:05):
Yep, absolutely.
I wish, you know, we remembermore when we were little,
pre-playing pretend.
I want to be president, I'mgonna be the prima ballerina,
I'm gonna be the fireman.
That was our potential speakingto us, right?
And us finding whose life outthere matched that.
And then we let the world chipaway at that.
And it it's a remembering.
(37:27):
This process has been aremembering for me.
Mary (37:30):
Yeah.
And I talk about that withplants because I'm a plant geek.
So, you know, if if you're borna sunflower, you cannot make
yourself into a tulip.
You know, it it doesn't matterwhat we are born as, we're all
beautiful, but we all have ourown needs.
So one plant is going to needsomething very different, but
that doesn't mean that thatplant is wrong.
(37:50):
And so I think I call itessential nature, getting back
to truly what we need.
And you pointed out beautifullythat a lot of that returning
and recognizing that essentialnature starts with monitoring
what am I feeling?
Does that excite me?
Well, then I need to movetoward that.
If that makes me gives me a pitin my stomach, I need to think
(38:14):
about that, figure out what'sgoing on, and potentially move
away from that or interact withit in a different way.
Candice (38:20):
Yes, absolutely.
I I truly, truly believe thatour body is so intelligent,
right?
Getting in touch with that,it's it's the antenna, right?
It's intuitive.
And the more we can startpracticing, because it is a
practice, right?
I think in the spiritual andhealing community, everybody's
(38:40):
looking for that magic buttonwhere they're going to be
unhealed and healed, right?
Right.
But it's that it's that messymiddle where we're figuring it
out, where we're learning whatwe like, what we don't like, you
know, healing what what needsto be healed and moving on from
it is where we we learn and growthe most.
And so I wish for more peopleto understand that the
(39:03):
awareness, the epiphanies arewhere the work begins.
Mary (39:09):
Yeah.
And I will say that that firstchapter that you sent to me, I
really loved it.
I loved how you laid thingsout.
And again, as a therapist, Irecommended a lot of things.
I've read a lot of things.
And I think for you pullingfrom your own experience and
then defining some of thosethings like potential and
potency, I mean, giving people away to think about those, to
(39:33):
think about code.
Because for me, I use arational belief.
And I think anytime a womanhears irrational, it's like, I'm
not irrational.
It's like, no, no, it doesn'tmean that.
It means beliefs that don'thave a basis in fact.
But you are talking aboutsomething that I think is really
accessible, that word of we'vebeen coded.
That's what our amygdala does.
(39:54):
So I think you have a lot ofreally good nuggets and places
to start in what I've read.
So tell us more about wherethey can find your book, where
they find you, what you offer,all of that good stuff.
Candice (40:07):
Yeah, so I have a website, so landing page,
thefrequencylab.to.
And there you can um, it takesyou to Amazon, the books on
Amazon.
If you just want to go straightto Amazon, um, get on the wait
list for book two, unravel, um,and book three, unleash.
They're on their way.
Um, I'm dropping a course thisweek on awaken.
(40:30):
And so you can you can get intothe course or you can um
schedule a disruption sessionwith me where I just let people
fill in and give that give thatchatter box a voice, and we kind
of get down to the core beliefunder there that's that's
running it.
Mary (40:48):
Yeah, and I'll put links for everything in the show
notes.
One thing to point out, we'rerecording this on October 14th,
and it probably will not air fora month.
So you're probably hearing thisin November.
So I don't know if you'll havethe course on autopilot or if
you'll have staggered sort ofsignups, but they can probably
still find your course info inthere if they Yeah, it'll be
(41:10):
there.
Candice (41:11):
It will definitely be there by then.
unknown (41:12):
Okay.
Mary (41:13):
Okay.
Well, it was so cool to talk toyou today and tease apart some
of this.
It is one of my favoritetopics.
Candice (41:21):
Thank you so much, Rami.
Mary (41:22):
It was a pleasure.
You're welcome.
And I want to thank everyonewho listened.
I'm gonna do a little bitsomething different today.
Um, I would love to call ony'all to help me out with
something.
My first book draft is gettingprepped to go to the editor.
So if you would like to be amember of my launch team,
basically you will get thephysical book at cost, no profit
(41:44):
to me, six weeks before it'sofficially in the world.
And you'll get to read it soyou can write a review, an
honest review for me.
But I also will have some supersecret maybe insights, maybe an
audio snippet of the book thatI will send you and a couple
other freebies.
So if you're interested, simplyclick on the link in the show
notes to sign up.
It does not obligate you for athing.
(42:05):
You'll only get emails relatedto the book launch unless you
want to opt in for my weeklyemail.
So thanks again for listening.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
Y'all know that one of themantras of this show is take up
your space.
We do that in a million littleways, all of which are nuggets
to be mined from my episodes.
(00:49):
But rarely do I talk directlyabout how to cut right to the
heart of it.
I talked about this in my veryfirst episode back in January.
However, today I'm guessing myguest will be much clearer about
our barriers to truly standingin our space and how to push
through them to find ourfoundation and live more
authentically.
I'm gonna keep this introuncharacteristically short so we
(01:13):
can get to the meat of this.
Candace Lynn is the author ofAwaken, a book that doesn't
teach you who to be, it remindsyou who the hell you are.
Through raw storytelling,subconscious reprogramming, and
the occasional cuss word, whichI love, Candace helps people
break the beliefs that havetheir lives running on
autopilot.
She speaks to those who feellike they have outgrown people
(01:35):
pleasing, perfectionism, andpretending to be fine.
And if you listen at all tothis podcast, you know those are
common themes.
Candace is here to helplisteners unravel emotional
coding, reclaim their power, andrewrite the internal narratives
they didn't realize they wereliving by.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Candace.
Thank you for having me.
(01:55):
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah, I think this is going tobe fun.
So, okay, this is a big topicand it goes to the heart of
pretty much everything I talkabout.
I like, though, to have gueststalk to me first about how did
you end up where you are today?
So if you could start with yourjourney, like what moments do
you feel stand out for you thatsort of brought you to where you
(02:18):
are sitting here today?
Candice (02:20):
Oh, yeah, that's that could be a whole episode on its
own, but we'll read her digestversion of sure.
Okay.
Um, so you know, typicalgrowing up, you know, I was
married at 20.
We have we've been married for19 years.
We have three beautifuldaughters, and just through our
own life path and ups and downs,and um, you know, trying to
(02:41):
make a marriage work in today'ssociety, learning what works and
what doesn't.
Um, we we had a few years ofvery high conflict, high, high
conflict, quite a few years.
Um, and went through coachingand doing all the things and
couples retreats, right?
And everything would be goodfor a while.
(03:02):
And then we'd revert back towhat what we knew, which was
conflict.
And there just became it, therewas a pivotal moment um early
this year where we had just doneten thousand dollars worth of
coaching, and and somehow wereverted back.
(03:23):
And I was like, you know, thisis I just felt in my bones that
this is a moment right now whereI choose.
And it gets me emotional.
It was one of the scariestmoments of my life where I had
to decide that regardless ofwhat happened with my marriage,
(03:44):
I was gonna choose me.
Yeah, I was going to choose tolive by my truth and live
authentically, regardless ofwhat that meant.
And it was terrifying.
Um, and lucky for me, I'mmarried to a wonderful man who
was always, you know, even whenwe were in high conflict, has
always been committed to growthwith me and growing and changing
(04:06):
and becoming better parents,becoming who we're meant to be.
And so as I stepped into me, Iwas afraid.
I'm like, regardless of whathappens, I'm not shrinking
anymore, I'm not people pleasinganymore, I'm going to walk into
my truth.
And everything I feel likechanged from that moment.
Um, I was fortunate, like Isaid, being married to a
(04:26):
wonderful man.
He's always wanted me to beauthentically me.
We just had all these codesbumping into each other.
And so that was the moment.
That was it.
It was all this just the pastand the conflict and everything
led up to this moment where Isaid, I'm I'm done.
I'm done shrinking.
It's not, it's not serving me,it's not serving my family.
(04:48):
And that's where everythingunraveled.
And I started following mytruth, and I wrote the book, and
and here we are.
Mary (04:56):
Yeah.
So you talked about severalthings that I want to asterisk
and come back to.
So, you know, I think it'sinteresting that you talk about
how scary it is to take up yourspace.
And I say that all the time.
And I think sometimes peopledon't, well, sometimes it
(05:16):
doesn't resonate, but I feellike for most women, especially,
it does because you talkedabout the narratives and you
used the word shrinking, whichis, of course, in the title of
my podcast.
So, you know, we do shrink.
We are, we I don't think westart out that way, and we can
get to that because I know youbelieve that too.
I think when we're born, wenaturally know who we are.
(05:37):
And then we start to get thosesubtle messages like, well,
that's weird, or why are youdoing that?
Or, and then we, especially ifwe're really perceptive, we pick
that up and then we chop thatpart of ourselves off or we hide
it somewhere.
So when we finally get to thisage where we're like, wait a
(05:57):
minute, I if I don't liveauthentically for me, then I'm
not being authentic in anything.
Where do you think the fearcomes from?
Candice (06:07):
I believe it's, you know, my identity was wrapped up
in being the people pleaser andbeing the shrinking, right?
And we've got that ego, well,if I'm not that, then what am I?
And that's terrifying.
You know, so the fear is I Igenuinely thought there was a
there's a chance that my familydoesn't love this non, this
version of me that don't abandonherself, right?
(06:29):
What if I end up alone and it'sterrifying if to lose
everything that I've built foralmost 20 years by choosing me?
That was the fear for me, whichthe fear was a lie.
My family loves me.
They want me to be me, theywant to see me happy, but that
wasn't in there in that identitycrumbling space of my brain.
(06:50):
I thought that I was gonna loseeverything.
Mary (06:53):
Which again is interesting.
After doing all that work andknowing that you had a partner.
I mean, I when I use the wordpartner, I truly think sometimes
we truly have a partner.
Sometimes we just use the word,but often when somebody's
walking with us, they are ourpartner.
And so even as someone who'shad children and navigated a lot
of this and put time into it,you could still be afraid that
(07:18):
what you need to do is going tobe alienating to them.
So you've used the word code.
Can you give an example ofwhether it's with someone you
worked with generally or foryou?
What do what do those codeslook like and how do they
operate?
Candice (07:35):
Oh, I'll use the not enough code for me, um, because
that is a lot of I'm not I'm notenough and I'm unsafe, is where
a lot of my uh programs werestemming from.
And whether where they camefrom, you know, could who knows?
Early on, we're we're taughtthese things.
We pick things up, like wesaid.
But so that was how I lived mylife.
(07:56):
I'm not enough, I'm unsafe.
And so I'm constantly trying toprove my enoughness externally
and be everything to everybodyand keep everything and then the
unsafe.
And so I have to make sureeverybody's emotions are
regulated, never looking backand asking me if I'm okay, just
making sure everybody else isokay.
And so we have these codesrunning, and they the symptoms
(08:19):
are our nervous system goinginto fight or flight, right?
When it when somebody slams acupboard, it's like, oh shoot,
right?
And then the program is thatexternal um, I'm trying to think
of the word, but where you'reexternally trying to source your
safety and your your enoughnessand your worth, that's where
the whole web just starts to getall tangled up.
Mary (08:41):
Yeah.
So you mentioned the slammingof a cupboard.
Let me expand on that a littlebit.
So if that was part ofpotentially someone's childhood
where anger came out in slammingthings, throwing things, we
learned that a loud sound, aloud, sudden sound, typically
means somebody's mad at us.
Candice (08:59):
Right?
Yes, yep.
And I would go into instantfreeze, right?
Our re our nervous systemresponds within a nanosecond.
You're within fight, flight,freezer, fawn within a
nanosecond.
And so it's not, it's it's alot more intricate than just
saying, Oh, I'm not gonna, I'mnot gonna let a covered slam
bother me anymore.
Mary (09:17):
Yeah, right.
Candice (09:18):
It's noticing, oh, I'm frozen.
Okay, I feel unsafe.
Let me breathe, you know, andstarting to unravel it that way.
Just recognizing that thesecodes take off before in your
body before your your thinkingbrain even realizes what's
happened.
Mary (09:36):
Yeah, they're coded by the amygdala, which is, you know, I
call it, and people have heardthis several times, that I call
it the smoke alarm.
So it's that smoke alarm thatis very sensitive.
So when the toast is burning,the house is not burning down,
but the amygdala wants to keepus safe.
So it tells us the house isburning down.
And by being aware of that,that's where you're saying,
(09:58):
like, figure out when you havethis reaction, where did that
come from?
And I love that you mentionedall four Fs.
So they're they're not cusswords.
What we're talking about isfight, flight, freeze, or fawn.
And we're we're very familiarwith fight or flight.
The freeze, I think, is when,especially women, because I work
(10:21):
with a lot of college students,and within that, you're going
to get sexual assaults.
You have a lot of young peopletogether in a in a small
community.
And that would be the thingthat would cause women later to
feel guilt or shame.
Why did I freeze?
Why didn't I do more?
(10:41):
And you're you're making thepoint.
You can no more change thatnatural reaction.
Now we can learn from it, butthat natural way that we respond
to something that scares us or,you know, that that is
startling, that is natural.
And so that was a thing wherewhen it's like a bunny, if
(11:01):
you've ever noticed a bunny getsscared and it's like, why is it
not running?
Well, it feels like I'm safe ifI stay small.
And so that's exactly kind ofwhat you're talking about.
Like shrinking in thosesituations makes you feel safe
and it might keep you safe, butlater it does not work for you.
Candice (11:18):
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
And that freeze, I as soon as Iwould thaw, I would go right
into fawn.
Right.
And so it's not this linearthing where you need to
recognize, you know, we kind ofcycle through all of them, one
of them more than the othersometimes, and learning to
regulate through that process,get that prefrontal cortex back
(11:40):
on, right?
Start breathing and regulatingthrough it is where we can
really start to make majorchange.
Mary (11:48):
So before we go on, can you explain fawn?
Because I think that's one wedon't often hear.
So people might not be familiarwith that reaction.
Candice (11:56):
Yeah.
So that for me was my peoplepleaser, right?
Let's say the cupboard slammedand I finally thaw and I go out
there.
I'm like, okay, who needs what?
Who's mad?
Are is everybody okay?
Do you need oh, did it did thisbreak?
Let me clean it up.
It's it's just externallyfocusing on everybody around
you, making sure they're okay,and never ever clocking in with
(12:16):
yourself to see what you need.
Mary (12:20):
And so I think the beginning, and you explained
this a little bit, you were kindenough to give me a chapter of
your book.
So one of the things that youtalk about is being aware of the
reaction to start with, becausewe all react in a certain way
for a reason.
So if we're irritated by loudnoises or, you know, something,
(12:40):
the way somebody looks at usmakes us feel scared and we're
not sure why.
You sort of start with the ideaof, you know, be aware of that
and reflect on it, right?
Candice (12:49):
Yes, yep.
I call it looking for thesymptoms of a code, right?
Those codes have have ranunchecked.
I believe we're seven whenthey're when they're cemented in
our brain.
And so we aren't attuned torecognizing the code, but we can
start to become attuned to ourbody and recognize when
something's off, when when ourchest is tight and things like
(13:12):
that, and starting to get moreinto the body because I like to
get people out of their mind.
Our thoughts are our cage.
That's where the the littlechatter box is going off saying,
I'm unsafe, they don't love me.
I'm, you know, I need to runaway.
If we can get back into ourbody, find those symptoms, love
ourselves, we can start touncover those codes from the
(13:32):
body up.
unknown (13:33):
Yeah.
Mary (13:34):
Well, and I think sometimes when the how do I want
to say, when the narrative isrunning, I don't know it.
Well, I'll say in my experiencewith clients, they don't often
hear that or perceive it.
It's the actual body reaction.
Well, I they can't get past thefeeling of anxiety or the worry
(13:55):
or all of that heart-poundingfeeling to actually access what
is my brain telling me aboutthat?
Give some hints.
How do you get from that body,which I think we do need to
connect with and calm?
But then how do we start tohear what that inner critic, the
narrative, the code, whateverwe want to call it, what is that
(14:16):
that is telling us?
How do we get there?
Candice (14:19):
For me, it's it's always from a place of
neutrality.
I don't want to go up there ifI'm not neutral.
I don't want, I don't want to.
And so it's always gettingneutral first.
For me, journaling, I can freewriting has always been great
for me.
And and I can just writewhatever comes out and then look
at it.
Oh, wow, I really feel like I'mnot enough.
(14:40):
There's little clues in here,you know, they never listen to
me or I never do enough.
There's little clues in there.
If we can listen to it from aneutral space and not get swept
up by it, we can really learn alot about ourselves.
Mary (14:56):
And there's two parts as I see it.
And again, I pulled this sortof out of your first chapter
that you shared.
The first part is what you'resaying that what do we tell
ourselves?
So someone does something, andof course, we have that
emotional or physical reaction,but then we're telling ourselves
a story about it.
No one cares about me.
They always do this.
(15:17):
So the first thing, obviously,is be aware of those absolutes.
Always and never are rarelytrue.
But we're starting to tellourselves this story.
We recognize it, we feel, okay,they're acting some type of
way.
And, you know, it is they don'tlike me or they're judging me
or those kinds of things.
Candice (15:37):
Yes, yes.
And it's interesting when wehave the realization that they,
the other person, probably hasthese thoughts going on in their
head as well, right?
That, oh, they think I'm notenough, right?
We're all just these littleinner critics outwardly
expressing our wounds onto eachother.
And that's that's just where Iwanted to start.
My life, I did all the things.
(15:58):
I took all the classes, I readall the books, but and things
would get good for a littlewhile, and then I'd be back to
where I was, and I'd be back tobeing afraid and and wanting to
stay small and not wanting to beseen.
And so for me, it was reallyjust time to get to the root.
What is this?
What is this?
And so, really just recognizingand listening, it's it's a
(16:18):
total journey of self-discovery,radical self-honesty.
You know, you have to be honestwith yourself.
And the number one thing that Imade sure was that I never
shamed myself.
I never shamed myself for myresponse to my traumas or for
anything, because that there'sno growth in shame, right?
(16:39):
That sticks us right back inthat victim guilt mentality,
just spinning out in it.
And so meeting it withcuriosity and compassion and
processing, you know, maybe thelittle resentment that came up
for what put the code there inthe first place, learning to let
that go.
And I have just for the firsttime, I'm 39, I've created a
(17:00):
relationship with myself throughself-discovery.
Mary (17:03):
Well, and again, it's interesting that you were doing
work in your partnership and asa parent, and then this started
to become very apparent to youthat wait a minute, I've sort of
bypassed the most importantperson in this whole thing,
which is myself.
Can you explain to us and youshare only as much as you want,
but in your marriage, how didthat come out for you?
(17:24):
That unhealthy or misalignedcoding?
Candice (17:29):
Um, for a lot of me, I recognize I'm like, well,
everything will be fine onceJason learns to control his
anger.
You know, everything will befine.
Like, we'll be fine once Jasoncan change this, once he can
heal his childhood, we're gonnabe fine.
And so he did, right?
He he learned to he does notget angry anymore.
(17:49):
He's healed things from hischildhood, he's grown, but then
here I still am going into fawnand freeze and and panic mode
because I was so focused on himneeding the healing.
I forgot that I needed to healas well.
Mary (18:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anything that we go through aswe're growing up, it's gonna
revisit us in our most intimaterelationships.
And I and I used to say that tomy college students like, now's
the time.
Now is the time to get yourselfhealthy.
And because I think life willkeep reminding you, it'll keep
(18:25):
turning the volume up.
Like it sounds like for you,it's like you tried, and then
you tried again, and then youtried again.
And finally, there wassomething that was like,
Candace, I think you need tomaybe look in the mirror and
start to wade through some ofthis stuff.
Candice (18:38):
Yes, absolutely, you know, and it was the moment that
moment that I talked about,that pivotal moment, was I was
so locked into that potency andpotential that we talked a
little bit about in my book,that I thought anything that
isn't this isn't me.
This is me.
I this is my essence.
I feel powerful, I feelvibrant, I feel alive.
(19:01):
And obviously there's still upsand downs or human, but I just
made a commitment to check inwith that truth on a
moment-to-moment basis, minuteby minute, hour by hour.
Am I living in line with this?
You know, am I trying tocontrol the situation?
I don't want my kids to fight,I don't want this to happen.
How do I feel in my body whenI'm doing that?
(19:24):
I don't feel potent, I don'tfeel my power.
I feel small and like I need tokeep everybody happy.
And so learning to lock intothat potency that I felt when I
was a kid.
I I always believed I was hereto do something special, I'm
here to help people, I'm here todo something amazing.
And locking back into that wasvery emotional.
(19:46):
I don't ever want to let thatgo.
And so now that's just how Ilive my life.
Is this an alignment?
You know, if if I'm about tohave a conversation with my
husband, lock into that firstbecause that is a very loving,
kind part of me.
And so now I'm just developingthis relationship with my
potency and learning to liveauthentically through that.
And it doesn't includeshrinking, it just doesn't.
(20:08):
Yeah.
Mary (20:09):
And I can already hear, because again, I've heard sort
of the protests from clientsover 35 years.
I'm guessing there are peopleout there that are thinking,
Candace, I don't have time tofocus on myself.
I have to, again, take care ofa family.
I have a job, I'm married, I'mworking, all of these things.
What would you say to somebodythat's thinking that?
Candice (20:32):
Well, believing there's never enough time in the day is
a code.
Right.
And if you're running thatcode, you probably say yes to
things you want to say no to.
You run yourself into the dirt,you guilt yourself for rest,
you probably guilt yourself fortaking time for yourself.
So it sounds like to me thatmight be something you need to
pencil in at the top of yourpriority list and start make
(20:54):
because nothing's going to, Iwon't say nothing, that's too
absolute.
But the your life is more thanlikely not going to go down the
path you want it to if you don'tstart, maybe wake up five
minutes earlier and whether youlike to journal, meditate, or
maybe turn the news off on yourway to work or whatever it is,
(21:14):
and start penciling time in foryou and start believing that you
have time for yourself becausethat's a code.
Yeah.
Mary (21:23):
And it's also to circle back a little bit, I think it's
that fear that if I really startto stand in my space and
sometimes make boundaries andmaybe not do all the things I
used to do, that it's going tonegatively affect my family.
Candice (21:41):
Yes.
Yeah, that's was something Ihad to think about because I've
been their mother and wife foralmost 20 years.
Everything will fall apart if Icome out different, right?
And I never realized, you know,when we would have
conversations, the the wordcontrolling would come up, and
that would be the hill I woulddie on.
(22:02):
I am not controlling.
There's no way.
I am the most backbending,people-pleasing person ever.
But what I realized was thatwas my way of control.
That was my way of controllingeverything around me, so I felt
safe.
So I felt like I was enough andI was worthy.
And so finally admitting tomyself, wow, I really do have a
(22:24):
control problem.
Mary (22:25):
Yeah.
Candice (22:26):
But it's not controlling what this person
does, it's controlling myenvironment.
What would happen if I didn't?
What if I just let my kids havea conversation that sounds a
little like it might go sidewaysand I breathe into my nervous
system and see what happens?
I thought the world would burndown.
Mary (22:46):
Yeah.
Candice (22:47):
But it turns out, you know, kids are meant to have
conversations that their mothersaren't.
You know, yeah.
They're learning things by mestepping back.
And it's been beautiful.
Mary (22:59):
Well, you brought up something that I love this flip
side of the coin, because thisis what a lot of people, in
fact, I just was recentlytalking to a client about a lot
of these themes.
And we have this idea that whenwe take care of everything and
we keep the road smooth, thatthat's keeping people's lives
(23:20):
happy.
And it's what it's really doingin some cases is giving the
message, I don't really trustyou to take care of your own
situation.
And also, especially withchildren, we have to allow them
sometimes to flounder and find asolution and let it be messy.
Because when they aren't underyour roof anymore, then they'll
(23:43):
discover it and then they won'thave, you know, I always talk
about nature and young trees.
They need the wind to maketheir roots deeper and stronger.
And if they don't have that, ifwe protect them, then when the
first wind comes along, they'regoing to just break.
So I think that flip side is soimportant for people to
consider because it's alsofreeing, right?
(24:05):
Because now it's like, oh, waita minute.
This isn't really about me.
This is also about myenvironment and letting the
people in my environment be whothey need to be.
Candice (24:17):
Oh, absolutely.
That has been another beautifulside effect of me, you know,
choosing into myself.
And because I was such a peoplepleaser, and I never learned to
speak my needs, I never evenlearned how to find what my
needs were.
My girls, you know, nobodyneeded to speak their needs
(24:37):
because I was 10 steps ahead ofeverybody.
I knew what everybody neededand I was taking care of it.
And now I've kind of revertedback and I've told it my family,
you know, I'm going to wait foryou guys to ask me for what you
need and what you want.
And it's not been easy on myend, right?
It's a lot of breathing, andyeah, but they are they're
(25:00):
starting to to speak up and andtell me what they need, and and
it's it's been great, you know.
My oldest is I have a 20, 17,and 13-year-old, and they need
to learn how to speak theirneeds.
And I was I was crippling themin that way.
Mary (25:16):
Yeah.
So when you decided, okay, Ineed to allow these things to
happen, you also mentionedwanting to sort of make
decisions based on what you wantand need.
But when you spend a lot ofyears focusing on what other
people want and need, it I thinkit's really challenging to be
(25:36):
able to figure that out foryourself, which maybe sounds
weird to some people, but howdid you start to do that?
Candice (25:44):
Right.
It was interesting because I Iliterally have no idea what I
like.
And when it comes time to eat,I don't have it.
I don't know.
I don't know.
That part was completely turnedoff.
And it's been kind of fun.
I am so an advocate ofembodiment.
And so if there's choices infront of me, let's take it down
(26:05):
to the easy.
Where do we want to eat?
What one inside me makes mefeel excited?
You know, do I feel moreexcited?
It's just, it's this crazyprocess of getting to learn
about yourself and see whatlights you up.
Did something give me a flutterin my belly?
Did something make me feel, ohit's it sounds simple, but it's
it's a huge task and it's fun,honestly.
Mary (26:28):
And it's that other part of being aware of your body when
something happens that alarmsyou or creates that anxiety or
heart pounding.
The other part of that is whatdo you feel excited about, or
what is something that yourealize?
Oh, I'm I'm sort of lookingforward to this.
And instead of saying, Well,you decide, it's like, wait a
minute, let me try to thinkabout maybe what I want to have
(26:51):
for dinner or what I want to do.
So you're discovering this foryourself, right?
Yeah, what did you figure, whatdid you figure out?
Like, what do you now thinkabout?
Okay, this is these are thethings I want to prioritize just
for me.
Candice (27:05):
I'm really liking qigong and love it, you know.
I've always been like a heavyweight lifter, you know, grinded
out, all this.
And I'm like, wow, I reallyenjoy Qi Gong.
This is interesting, you know.
And starting to talk about I'mturning 40 in February, and
we're kind of like, I've neverhad a birthday where I said what
(27:27):
I wanted.
You know, I'm like, I don'tknow, you guys just I'll love
anything.
It don't matter.
It's okay, you know.
Um, like I kind of want to goto the beach.
I want to find, I want to, Iwant to get to the ocean, you
know, and just these littlethings.
It's been a lot of work.
I'm not saying this is easy,it's still a process for me.
I I have to journal a lot ofthe times.
(27:48):
Um, and when I first startedthe process of writing the book
and coming on podcasts,terrified, terrified because
being seen was clopped as unsafebecause I have an you know, I'm
an unsafe code.
And now I just recognize I'mgetting ready this morning.
I just I can't wait to come onand talk with you.
And and that is so differentfor me.
(28:11):
That is such a 180 from who Iused to be.
Mary (28:15):
Yeah.
So I'm gonna take a little sidelane here because, you know,
sometimes people have prettysevere traumas.
And, you know, we develop theseways of responding to keep us
safe.
And then we reach a point, mostpeople end up in my office when
they realize what they didnaturally doesn't work anymore.
(28:37):
So I want to also be carefulabout when we talk about sort of
overcorrecting, that it this isnot simple.
And sometimes people will say,like, oh, just get over it.
So this idea of toxicpositivity, which I'm a little,
I mean, I have a couple thoughtsabout that, but I do think
sometimes people can simplifysomething that is not complex.
(28:58):
So I know you're not doingthis.
I want to talk about this alittle bit though.
When people feel like this isso ingrained in me, this
reaction of whatever it is, likeirritation or like snapping out
at somebody or defendingthings.
What would you say about that?
When if something is so theyjust believe that they there's
(29:18):
no change?
Like, I think it's very hardfor them to change or they
dismiss it like, you know,you're making this easy.
It's I just can't say smile andeverything's gonna be great.
Candice (29:28):
Oh, yes, a hundred percent.
Um, and I want to make it verywell known that this was not
easy.
It it's I broke it down into asimple step by step in my book,
but it's not easy.
It is it's the hardest thingI've ever done.
(29:48):
Like I said, that moment when Idecided I was gonna choose
myself, I literally felt like Iwas burning my marriage and my
family to the ground.
Um, and it's moment by moment,it's it's literally.
Coming back, it's regulatingyour nervous system, it's help
making yourself feel safe inareas that you've never felt
(30:08):
safe in, you know, areas of yourmind, things going on.
And I was, I'm just coming outof, I would say, 12 years of
disassociating.
I lost my brother, um,devastating, tragic, and I just
dissociated for 12 years, iswhat I can call it, right?
I was still here, I was stilldoing the things, and the
(30:30):
process of coming back to myselfafter disassociating for so
long, never really processingthe grief of losing my brother,
never allowing myself to feelthe pain is definitely not
something that was easy, but itwas necessary.
It was necessary if I wanted tohave a more fulfilled enriched
life.
And I believe that I did somuch nervous system healing that
(30:55):
I was finally at a place whereI could feel that grief.
I could finally accept it andfeel it.
And so the it's it's a process,and it's not always a solo
process.
You know, thank goodness thereare amazing counselors and
therapists out there like forpeople like you, because this
isn't always a solo process.
(31:15):
It can run deep and beingguided is is beautiful, but I
it's definitely worth taking thesteps, and even if it's just a
little bit today, like maybe Iwant to turn left instead of
turn right, right?
Just starting to play withthese little things.
Maybe I always get the vanillalatte because that's what I've
always done, but maybe I want totry.
Just starting to play withlittle things, just and learning
(31:38):
to feel that flutter ofexcitement in your belly again
is such a great starting point.
Mary (31:43):
Oh, I love those those suggestions because you've said
a couple of times it's not easy.
And here's one of the funnythings in the world a lot of
things are simple, but thatdoesn't mean they're easy.
So you said you break it down,and we can say, okay, there's X
number of steps here, but eachof those steps is first of all
unique to each person, and it'snot linear.
So you could go three stepsforward feeling great the next
(32:07):
day.
You're like, holy crap, I'mlike right back where I started,
right?
So it's not linear either.
Candice (32:13):
Very not linear.
Yes.
That's what the book lays itout in this linear process.
But you know, you're spottingthe code, um, disrupting the
code, that's where you say, Wow,okay, first I had awareness,
and I the disruption is I wantto change this, getting neutral,
reclaiming and embodiment, butsometimes it's in neutrality
(32:35):
where you spot the code, or youknow, sometimes it's an
embodiment when you say, I wantto disrupt this, and always just
being gentle with yourself.
It's a cycle, everything iscyclical, right?
And I think I think the beliefthat anything is linear has
really hurt us as a society forsure.
Mary (32:54):
Yeah, a lot of things we believe that, you know, we just
start and then we keepprogressing and progressing, and
we do progress, but it cansometimes look more like maybe a
roller coaster or you know,like a ball of yarn instead of a
straight road.
Um, and so I think the otherpart that you brought up was,
(33:15):
you know, we have we have thecode and then it's what are we
saying to ourselves?
So it is like, okay, thispeople are always ignoring me or
they think what I'm sayingisn't important.
And, you know, sometimes you'reright.
You know, sometimes you'll seesomebody doing something and you
are 100% reading thatcorrectly.
But I think that last step thatagain you allude to in what
(33:38):
I've read already is that's notabout you.
That does not have to defineanything about you.
It sort of defines somethingabout that person, and you
decide what you do with theknowledge.
Candice (33:51):
Yeah, yes.
Your reaction to it is aboutyou.
Mary (33:54):
Yeah.
Candice (33:54):
Right.
And that's the beautiful thingabout this process of healing um
and getting to know yourselfand locking into your truth,
because now you can walk awayfrom things that aren't for you,
right?
It if that doesn't feel inalignment, if this person's
always treating you like this,it's not about you, it's
something going on in them, butthat don't mean you have to
(34:16):
partake in it.
That don't mean you have toparticipate.
You can walk away.
Mary (34:21):
Yeah.
And and that is the empoweringpart that recognizing it, but
then not allowing it to definesomething about you.
So you talked a lot about beinga caretaker and a people
pleaser.
And that's hard when peoplestep back a little bit from that
because they think, well, myworth is really based to
(34:41):
everyone else on what I do forthem.
So there's that scary thing.
When I stop doing for them, amI going to then become
worthless?
And that pattern is not, again,about your worth.
Your worth is consistent, itstays the same.
If other people react andthey're upset or they're mad,
(35:03):
that's not your responsibility.
Candice (35:06):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I talk about, you know, inthe embodiment phase, not
everybody's going to throw aparade that you that you've
healed.
You know, nope.
There's a lot of people outthere that that loved the the
version of me that abandonedherself to keep everybody happy.
And so I just got to make thedecision.
Am I do I want thatrelationship or do I want
(35:29):
myself?
Am I gonna choose me?
And now I'm always gonna chooseme.
Mary (35:36):
Well, and you find out who's really in your life to be
in your life, and that again, itis very scary in the beginning
because you're talking aboutyour marriage, but what you
discover is my god, this is evenbetter than I thought.
Candice (35:50):
Yeah, yep.
Yeah, now my now my kids get towatch two healed people have a
relationship because they chooseeach other, right?
Not because we're trauma bondedtogether and we're on this
cycle and it's just this thing.
It's we've both done the workand we've healed and we come
together because we choose to.
And we've walked away fromfriendships that that weren't
(36:12):
serving us, that you know, lovedthe abandoning part of myself
and giving them that empoweringthem to show them that they can
do the same thing.
Find somebody that wants toheal and grow with you, find
somebody that wants you to beyou and they want to be them,
and you guys just work togetherand walk away from from whoever
does align with that.
(36:32):
Yeah.
Mary (36:33):
Yeah, and not and don't stay in in someone's life, a
friendship or whatever, justbecause it's been X number of
years.
You know, I've heard that too.
Well, my gosh, we've beenfriends since we were five.
It's like, well, maybe thatmeans the friendship has run its
course.
You know, I think that's theother part about it is you you
do, and I'm gonna circle back tothe beginning.
We do know inside what is rightfor us.
(36:56):
And it is all of that stuff andthe fear that gets in the way
and creates a barrier to movingthrough that into what is
authentic.
Candice (37:05):
Yep, absolutely.
I wish, you know, we remembermore when we were little,
pre-playing pretend.
I want to be president, I'mgonna be the prima ballerina,
I'm gonna be the fireman.
That was our potential speakingto us, right?
And us finding whose life outthere matched that.
And then we let the world chipaway at that.
And it it's a remembering.
(37:27):
This process has been aremembering for me.
Mary (37:30):
Yeah.
And I talk about that withplants because I'm a plant geek.
So, you know, if if you're borna sunflower, you cannot make
yourself into a tulip.
You know, it it doesn't matterwhat we are born as, we're all
beautiful, but we all have ourown needs.
So one plant is going to needsomething very different, but
that doesn't mean that thatplant is wrong.
(37:50):
And so I think I call itessential nature, getting back
to truly what we need.
And you pointed out beautifullythat a lot of that returning
and recognizing that essentialnature starts with monitoring
what am I feeling?
Does that excite me?
Well, then I need to movetoward that.
If that makes me gives me a pitin my stomach, I need to think
(38:14):
about that, figure out what'sgoing on, and potentially move
away from that or interact withit in a different way.
Candice (38:20):
Yes, absolutely.
I I truly, truly believe thatour body is so intelligent,
right?
Getting in touch with that,it's it's the antenna, right?
It's intuitive.
And the more we can startpracticing, because it is a
practice, right?
I think in the spiritual andhealing community, everybody's
(38:40):
looking for that magic buttonwhere they're going to be
unhealed and healed, right?
Right.
But it's that it's that messymiddle where we're figuring it
out, where we're learning whatwe like, what we don't like, you
know, healing what what needsto be healed and moving on from
it is where we we learn and growthe most.
And so I wish for more peopleto understand that the
(39:03):
awareness, the epiphanies arewhere the work begins.
Mary (39:09):
Yeah.
And I will say that that firstchapter that you sent to me, I
really loved it.
I loved how you laid thingsout.
And again, as a therapist, Irecommended a lot of things.
I've read a lot of things.
And I think for you pullingfrom your own experience and
then defining some of thosethings like potential and
potency, I mean, giving people away to think about those, to
(39:33):
think about code.
Because for me, I use arational belief.
And I think anytime a womanhears irrational, it's like, I'm
not irrational.
It's like, no, no, it doesn'tmean that.
It means beliefs that don'thave a basis in fact.
But you are talking aboutsomething that I think is really
accessible, that word of we'vebeen coded.
That's what our amygdala does.
(39:54):
So I think you have a lot ofreally good nuggets and places
to start in what I've read.
So tell us more about wherethey can find your book, where
they find you, what you offer,all of that good stuff.
Candice (40:07):
Yeah, so I have a website, so landing page,
thefrequencylab.to.
And there you can um, it takesyou to Amazon, the books on
Amazon.
If you just want to go straightto Amazon, um, get on the wait
list for book two, unravel, um,and book three, unleash.
They're on their way.
Um, I'm dropping a course thisweek on awaken.
(40:30):
And so you can you can get intothe course or you can um
schedule a disruption sessionwith me where I just let people
fill in and give that give thatchatter box a voice, and we kind
of get down to the core beliefunder there that's that's
running it.
Mary (40:48):
Yeah, and I'll put links for everything in the show
notes.
One thing to point out, we'rerecording this on October 14th,
and it probably will not air fora month.
So you're probably hearing thisin November.
So I don't know if you'll havethe course on autopilot or if
you'll have staggered sort ofsignups, but they can probably
still find your course info inthere if they Yeah, it'll be
(41:10):
there.
Candice (41:11):
It will definitely be there by then.
unknown (41:12):
Okay.
Mary (41:13):
Okay.
Well, it was so cool to talk toyou today and tease apart some
of this.
It is one of my favoritetopics.
Candice (41:21):
Thank you so much, Rami.
Mary (41:22):
It was a pleasure.
You're welcome.
And I want to thank everyonewho listened.
I'm gonna do a little bitsomething different today.
Um, I would love to call ony'all to help me out with
something.
My first book draft is gettingprepped to go to the editor.
So if you would like to be amember of my launch team,
basically you will get thephysical book at cost, no profit
(41:44):
to me, six weeks before it'sofficially in the world.
And you'll get to read it soyou can write a review, an
honest review for me.
But I also will have some supersecret maybe insights, maybe an
audio snippet of the book thatI will send you and a couple
other freebies.
So if you're interested, simplyclick on the link in the show
notes to sign up.
It does not obligate you for athing.
(42:05):
You'll only get emails relatedto the book launch unless you
want to opt in for my weeklyemail.
So thanks again for listening.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com