December 18, 2025 • 47 mins
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The hardest part of divorce isn’t signing papers; it’s deciding who you want to be next. Mary sits down with divorce recovery coach Leah Mazur to trace a path from abandonment wounds and serial monogamy to boundaries, standards, and a calmer nervous system. Together we break the old script that says your worth depends on being chosen, and replace it with a practical roadmap for choosing yourself: slowing down, noticing red flags without making excuses, and building a full, satisfying life where partnership is a bonus, not a requirement.
Leah’s story begins with profound loss—both parents gone by 21—and the coping patterns that followed. She opens her toolkit: self-reflection over blame, mindfulness, journaling, and the steady practice of acting on intuition. We talk about how to stop dating from a void, how to read behavior over chemistry, and how to shift the internal question from “Do they like me?” to “Do they add value to my life?” For single moms, we cover dating with kids, keeping introductions private until there’s earned trust, and handling mom guilt by modeling courage and healthy coping. We also challenge comparison culture and the myth that staying married equals success; curated feeds don’t reveal the cost behind the smile.
If you’re afraid of repeating patterns, this conversation offers concrete ways to change them: enforce boundaries early, honor your body’s signals, and make financial independence a pillar of your peace. When two whole people meet, there’s no fixing project—just alignment. Listen to reclaim your standards, trust your nature, and start the next chapter on your terms.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leah (00:00):
You can't make what other people choose to do mean
something about you.
Mary (00:11):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:34):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
I didn't get married for thefirst time until I was 37.
I dated my first husband forover three years before we did
get married.
(00:55):
We divorced 10 years later.
Of course, I never anticipatedthat that would happen to me.
My parents were married fornearly 50 years before my dad
died.
I think what saved me fromfeeling guilt and shame for not,
quote, making it work was thatmy ex-husband was the one that
left.
And up until then, I had beentrying to keep the fire going,
(01:15):
not allowing myself to recognizethat the marriage had devolved
into a pile of damp twigs.
It was all smoke.
Before and after my marriage, Idated a lot.
I also had several multipleyear-long relationships in my
life.
My husband now is the bestpartner I could have hoped for.
But I had to try and fail.
And I use that word without anynegative meaning to find what I
(01:39):
have now.
I think my experience afterdivorce was actually easier
because I didn't have kids.
I often thought how complicatedit would have been to try to
maintain a relationship with myex and his girlfriend in order
to give kids a more healthyparenting experience.
My guest today is kind of adivorce expert.
Not only has she navigated herown divorces, but like so many
(02:01):
of my guests, she now uses thewisdom she's gained to help
other women.
I'm looking forward toexploring with her, moving on
after divorce, both with andwithout children.
Leah Maser is the down-to-earthdivorce recovery queen with a
fierce heart, a sharp mind, andzero time for BS.
She's walked through fire morethan once, healed her way
(02:22):
forward, and built an empoweringonline space where single moms
don't just survive, they rise.
A certified coach, passionatecreator, and self-growth junkie,
she's the relatable bestie youwish you had during your
divorce.
I can relate, blending wisdom,wit, and that unshakable belief
that your next chapter can beyour best one.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Leah.
(02:44):
Thank you so much for havingme.
I am glad you're here.
And I would love to start withyou sharing some of the
highlights or lowlights of yourlife that brought you to where
you are.
What gave you the insight andhelped you to do the work you do
today?
Leah (03:00):
So uh when I was 16 years old, my mom had an asthma attack
in our home and died.
Uh extremely tragic andtraumatic, as you can imagine.
And five years later, my dadhad pancreatic cancer and died
at 46 years old.
So by the time I was 21 yearsold, uh, and I'm an only child,
(03:23):
so it was really just me alonein the world trying to figure
things out.
And I didn't realize it at thetime, but uh those losses really
left me with severe abandonmentissues, fear of being alone.
And so my coping mechanismbecame serial monogamy.
I mean, I was hopping fromrelationship to relationship for
years because those were kindof the buoys keeping me afloat.
(03:45):
Uh, if I wasn't in arelationship, I felt like I was
just kind of like floatingaround on the planet by myself.
And so a lot of failedrelationships later, uh, and my
second divorce was really justmy ugly wake-up call of for me
to focus on myself and go, okay,what why do I keep making the
choices I'm making?
Why do I find myself in thesetypes of relationships over and
(04:08):
over?
What do I need to dodifferently to get different
results?
And that was kind of thecatalyst for that healing and
self-growth journey for myself,you know, getting into all
things, you know, cultivatingself-awareness and mindfulness
and meditation and journalingand just all the things to help
figure out why I was making thechoices I was making.
And that's what empowered me tomake better choices moving
(04:30):
forward.
So then when I kind of got tothe, you know, quote unquote
other side, I had a wholetoolkit, right?
I had I had a ton of differentresources and tools to then be
able to help other women goingthrough divorce uh or separation
so that they don't have tolearn things the hard way like I
did.
Mary (04:51):
Well, and it's so interesting that that was part
of your journey because I had myparents into well into my
adulthood, but after my divorce,I swung crazy, like
overcompensated in onedirection, and then that didn't
work out and overcompensated inanother direction.
And it's so that sort offrantic scrambling to do it
(05:15):
right the next time.
Yeah, but you really have tostop and reflect on why did I
make the choices?
Leah (05:22):
What went into those choices, right?
Yes, it's huge.
When you come out of arelationship, it's very easy to
point the finger and say, well,they never did this and they
kept doing this and they nevershowed up the way they needed
to.
And all of that is valid, I'msure, but that's not going to
help you choose differentpartners moving forward.
Partners who are more alignedwith really what you need and
(05:44):
who you want to be.
That empowerment piece comesfrom self-reflection and you
looking back and going, okay,but what role did I play in this
relationship?
Because maybe everything wasn'tmy fault, but I did play a
role.
So where was I mentally andemotionally when I started that
relationship?
What red flags did I miss orignore?
What boundaries was I notsetting, right?
(06:06):
How do I want to show updifferently?
And what will I or will I nottolerate moving forward in
relationships?
Mary (06:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think knowing that going intoit is so much better, so much
makes it so much easier.
But we often don't step backand take a take a breath and try
to figure it out.
So what do you feel like inyour work have, or maybe from
your own personal experience,what are some of the biggest
(06:33):
mistakes women do make afterdivorces and how do you think
they can maybe sidestep them?
Leah (06:39):
One of the biggest mistakes is hopping into a
relationship too soon.
Um, and it's completelyunderstandable.
I've been there myself.
It's an easy distraction.
It's a way to just kind of numbout, it's a way to make you
feel better about yourself.
You know, if you've been in amarriage where you really
haven't gotten positiveattention or affection from
(07:00):
someone for maybe sometimesyears, you could be wanting that
and desperate for that from forsomeone else.
Um, or you just don't know howto be alone.
And so that's a way to kind offill that void.
So there's a lot of reasonsthat make sense why people would
do that.
However, when you're choosing apartner from a place of lack,
and when you're choosing apartner to fill a void within
(07:22):
yourself, you are not gonna bechoosing your ideal partner,
right?
You're probably choosingsomeone that maybe temporarily,
like a band-aid, will feel goodor help out, but that
relationship probably has anexpiration date, and then you're
gonna wind up right back whereyou started.
So you really have to take thetime to figure out who you are,
(07:43):
what you need, how to meet yourown needs, right?
And get yourself to a placewhere you feel whole and happy
and fulfilled all by yourselfbecause then you're gonna show
up on those dates verydifferently.
You're not gonna show upthinking, well, is he gonna like
me?
And am I saying the rightthing?
And did I wear the rightclothes?
(08:04):
And is he gonna think I havetoo much baggage?
That's not gonna be the innerdialogue anymore.
It's going to be, are you whatI'm looking for?
Do you have what I need in arelationship?
Are you adding value to mylife?
Because if the answer is no, Idon't need it then.
I'm good.
I don't need this relationship,right?
A relationship should be abonus.
(08:24):
It shouldn't be something youneed in order to feel happy or
whole or enough or fulfilled.
Mary (08:30):
I love how you just said all of that.
Because I think so often womenare socialized that they need to
be, look, act a certain waybecause they want to find a
partner.
Yes.
So we go into it with that thatexactly what you're saying.
Like, you know, we try on 10different outfits, and you know
(08:54):
what?
You can only maintain whateverillusion you're starting with
for so long.
Because at some point you haveto be real.
And so I think that's sometimeswhere we get tripped up too.
We want to want that to be aperfect interaction and we're
weighing everything we'resaying, and we're afraid to eat
because what are we going tolook like when we eat?
And it's like, well, if thatbecomes your partner, they're
(09:15):
going to see you in a way worsesituation than just eating an
appetizer.
Leah (09:20):
Yeah.
So it's really just gettingcomfortable with yourself,
knowing that you are enough justas you are.
You like yourself, you respectyourself, and then you're going
to attract partners who do thesame.
And you don't have to be anyonedifferent or shrink yourself to
get them to like you.
Because at the end of the day,if they don't like how you do
(09:41):
something, that's not yourperson.
Thank you.
Next.
Mary (09:44):
Yeah.
Well, and I think when we'restarting in a relationship,
there is definitely the kind oflike the high of the
neurotransmitters, of thedopamine, and all of that new
love stuff feels really good.
And when you're a serial dater,it's like a high every time.
(10:05):
You can be perfect to someoneuntil you're not.
And that fairy tale seems sopossible.
Leah (10:13):
Yes.
And that's why it's soimportant to go slow and take
your time.
One of the most common fears Ihear from clients is, especially
particularly those coming outof um toxic relationships.
Like if they were with anarcissist, for example, they're
so scared that they're justgoing to find themselves in
another relationship like that.
Like, how do I know I'm notgoing to wind up with someone
(10:36):
like this again?
And really, the secret sauce istake your time because
everyone's always on their bestbehavior for those first, you
know, 90 days, right?
When all those chemical, thosehappy chemicals are going
through your brain or howeverlong, you know, that takes.
And so you really have to giveyourself time to see how this
person acts when real lifethings happen.
(10:58):
Like what happens when they getcaught in a traffic jam?
What happens when anappointment gets canceled that
was unexpected, right?
What happens when like thingsuh ruin their plans?
How do they respond to that?
How do they react?
And and is that what you need?
Is this someone where you knowthat you can approach these
(11:18):
issues and communicate well?
Or is this something that maybeyou feel like, you know what,
this isn't aligned with me.
This isn't the right uh kind ofperson for who I need in in my
life.
So take your time, you know,there's no rush.
And time really will also showyou all those red flags.
I mean, everybody, again, is ontheir best behavior in the
beginning, but that's notsustainable for somebody who's
(11:41):
not being genuine.
So the the longer you givethem, all of those things will
kind of start to unearththemselves.
Mary (11:48):
And I think another mistake sometimes women make is
when something isn't going rightor when there is a reaction,
like let's say you're late to adate and it's unavoidable, it's
not your fault, but there's avery strong negative reaction
from the other person.
We are very quick to blameourselves.
This is my fault.
I should have done this, Ishould have done this
(12:08):
differently.
So is that a theme you see alot?
And when you do see it, how doyou help women see that more
clearly that they're notresponsible for the success of a
relationship?
Leah (12:21):
Yeah, I think it's such a such a delicate balance, right?
Because you do want to besomeone who can hold yourself
accountable and takeresponsibility when you do make
mistakes, but at the same time,you don't want to be someone
who's always blaming yourselffor everything.
So I think just cultivatingself-awareness is that key piece
and um trying to see thingsmore objectively instead of from
(12:44):
an ego base.
And so when you do show up, ifit really was something that was
completely out of your hands,like a car accident or a traffic
jam or something like you lefton time, you would have gotten
there on time if it weren't forthis thing that was out of your
hands.
Uh, if that person isn'tunderstanding to that, that's
certainly not something youshould be feeling bad about or
taking the blame for.
If anything, that's kind of asign that this person just isn't
(13:07):
maybe capable of empathy orjust have having that compassion
piece.
And so that would be a red flagto me.
On the other hand, if you maybeyou were just, you know, bad at
time management that day andyou you tried on too many
outfits and you got there toolate, you know, which happens
too.
We're all human, right?
And you get there late and andyou know, maybe they're not too
happy about it, then also youcan own up and say, hey, listen,
(13:29):
you know, you're right, I'msorry.
I didn't mean to be rude.
Um, you know, it, I, I, Ishould have maybe planned ahead
a little bit better and insteadof leaving you waiting.
You know, it's almost likeflipping the flipping the um the
seat, like in reverse.
You know, if it was you andthat person came and it was
really just a time managementissue and they should have done
a better job so that theyconsidered you and in your time,
(13:51):
um, you would probably wantthem to apologize, right?
Because if that's respectful.
Um, if it was somethingcompletely out of their control,
would you be mad about it?
And so if you wouldn't, wellthen kind of look at them the
same way.
You know, if they'reoverreacting to something that
was out of your control, that'sprobably a red flag.
Mary (14:09):
Yeah.
Well, and I like the idea oftaking the break, not falling
right back into the next thingbecause it's really easy to do
that.
Again, we have things likeonline dating.
So you can get your dopaminehit by go, it's like shopping,
right?
You can go on there and startto start to look at what are all
the options.
And so when a woman is reallychomping at the bit, and I think
(14:31):
there's also some of I want todo over because I want to do it
quote right this time.
We went, we rush to try to likedo it right the next time.
How do you advise women to takethis break when they're really
wanting to lean into the nextthing?
Leah (14:46):
Yeah.
So it's so important to do acouple of things.
One is you need to make surethat you're giving yourself the
space to heal, but also to learnhow to enjoy your own company.
Figure out how to just likebeing by yourself and pass the
time and take yourself out ondates and do things that are fun
for you.
Also, hobbies and creativeoutlets are huge.
(15:09):
Uh, not only is that a greatspace for you to get to know
yourself, uh, to build yourconfidence if you're doing
things that uh are fun or thatum, you know, it gives you
something to look forward to.
But also it, if you're goingand doing things that you enjoy,
you're creating opportunitiesto meet like-minded people.
And so making friends andhaving that community and all of
(15:31):
those things plays into you notfeeling so desperate to like
find another relationship.
Um after my second divorce, oras my second marriage was
crumbling, really, um, I decidedI wanted to pursue singing.
Singing was something I alwaysloved to do, but I was kind of
like a closet singer.
It wasn't something that I liketo told people about.
(15:51):
But I was like, you know what?
New chapter, new me.
I'm gonna try thingsdifferently this time.
And so I went online and Ifound a local band that was
auditioning lead vocalists.
And I said, you know what?
I'm gonna do it.
And um, I was terrified.
I mean, the whole drive there,I was like sweating and shaking
and listening to confidencehypnosis apps to try to pump me
(16:12):
up.
Um, but I told myself, you knowwhat?
I'm just so proud of myself forshowing up.
Like, regardless of even whatthe result is of this, I'm just
I'm pushing myself outside of mycomfort zone and I'm gonna show
up and I'm gonna give it a try.
So I did the audition, I didthe best I could, and I ended up
getting the part.
And I was so proud of myself.
And so then I had this thingthat I was doing that was just
(16:33):
for me that I was excited aboutand I looked forward to and I
was passionate about.
And um, it was it was anoutlet, it was a creative
outlet.
And also I met so many peopleover the years then from from
being in different bands andconnected with other local
musicians.
And so this was a part of mylife that brought me so much
fulfillment.
And every time I got up to thatmicrophone, uh my confidence
(16:55):
built.
So then I was also building myconfidence and figuring out who
I was and like showing myselfwhat I was really capable of.
So just and it could beanything.
I mean, maybe you want ahorseback ride, maybe you want
to go hiking, maybe you want topick up photography, dance
class.
I mean, it's traveling solo.
It doesn't matter what it is,whatever that thing is that's
calling you, go do it.
Lean into it.
(17:15):
That that's that's your time toexplore and experiment and
discover and really find thethings that bring you joy and
fulfillment.
And also you'll learn a lotabout yourself that way as well.
And so when you're doing thosethings, that helps you feel more
solid on your own and on yourown two feet, and you're not so
desperate to like hurry up andget partnered up with someone
(17:36):
romantically.
Mary (17:38):
Yes, I love all of that because uh so many women.
Well, I'm a therapist, so a lotI I encounter a lot of women
who they don't know themselves.
And I can only imagine as ayoung woman losing both your
parents before you really wereable to securely be a young
adult yourself.
I can imagine that just filledyour field of vision, so to
(18:00):
speak.
Like those were so huge, Ican't even imagine moving past
that to try to figure out, okay,who am I?
Because those losses are somuch a part of who you were and
are.
Leah (18:13):
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, I spent so many yearslost.
And that's why I wound up inthe wrong relationships over and
over and over again.
And so that's that's why mysecond divorce was really my
ugly wake-up call.
I was like, okay, I can't keepdoing this.
And now I can't keep draggingmy daughter through this.
Like, I need to figure out whyI keep finding myself in this
position so that I can makedifferent decisions that give me
(18:36):
different results.
Mary (18:37):
Yeah.
And I think one of the thingsthat is really important is that
you're talking about it.
You're not out there saying I'mhelping women and not talking
about the fact that you didn'tdo some of these things
initially that now you're tryingto help people do because we're
taught that when a marriagedoesn't work, we should feel
ashamed of that.
Leah (18:56):
Yes.
Mary (18:56):
And I think we need to break out of that.
Leah (18:58):
Oh, it drives me nuts.
I don't understand how there'sstill such a stigma around
divorce, honestly, with howcommon it is.
Um, and I don't know why welook at a divorce as a failure.
Um, I don't see it like that.
My personal perspective is ifyou learned something, it's not
a failure.
(19:18):
I mean, that's growth, right?
Sometimes you have to haverelationships that don't work so
that you can learn what you doneed or what you will look for
the next time, or what will workfor you.
I'm it's it's wild thatmarriage is one of those things
that people expect you to getright on the first try.
Like, why?
What would make anyone thinkthat that's, you know, what's
(19:41):
the likelihood of thathappening?
Everything else we're allowedto have, we give ourselves the
grace to try and fail and tryand fail.
And then you learn and you growand you evolve.
Um, and I really look atmarriage the same way.
I mean, nobody gets married andthinking they're gonna wind up
divorced.
Yeah, but also no good marriageends in divorce.
(20:02):
So at some point, you realizethat something's not working for
you.
Great, good for you.
You learned a lot aboutyourself, about relationships,
about marriage, probably aboutlife, maybe about parenting.
You learn so much.
So take that wisdom, bring itwith you into the next chapter
so that you can make choicesthat align with who you want to
(20:24):
be moving forward.
Mary (20:26):
Yes.
And I, as I said, I'm atherapist.
And so people often think,well, you must make great
decisions.
Right.
But it's like anything, you canbe a roofer and your own roof
can leak because you don't haveenough time to fix it.
So I thought, I'm gonna do thisonce, I'm gonna do it right.
And I was 37, and there werethings that happened I didn't
(20:50):
have control over.
And it, you know, so I thinksometimes the narrative for
women can be if only I had beenfill in the blank, sexier, more
attentive, a better cook.
We tend to really take on a lotof the responsibility for our
partner.
And I'm talking right nowheterosexual relationships, a
(21:11):
lot of responsibility forsomething not working or our
partner not being interested oror sticking around.
Do you see that in your work?
Leah (21:20):
Definitely.
Uh, especially when theirpartner um cheats or leaves and
immediately is in anotherrelationship, it's really easy
to blame yourself.
But you can't make what otherpeople choose to do mean
something about you because itdoesn't, right?
If they're choosing to um moveon quickly, or if they chose to
(21:45):
have an affair, uh at the end ofthe day, that really doesn't
have anything to do with you.
And it has a lot everything todo with them and their own
issues and their own childhoodtraumas that maybe they didn't
address, and it's it's all theirown stuff, right?
So you deserve to be withsomeone who you don't have to
convince of your value.
(22:07):
You shouldn't have to sellsomeone on why they should love
you.
And so if you're in a apartnership with someone who
doesn't choose you, that's notyour fault.
And you need to choose yourselfand walk away and pour into
yourself so that you can havepeace and happiness and joy and
(22:27):
fulfillment and not rely onsomeone else to do that for you.
Mary (22:31):
And I think too often when we get into a relationship,
we're looking at that man forthe clues.
How am I supposed to act?
We we read these microexpressions really well.
Oh, I said that.
He didn't like that.
And when you talk about takingtime to be alone, whether that
is after a divorce or evenbefore you start seriously
(22:53):
dating, maybe you want toestablish a career, that is when
you can get very grounded inyour ability to support
yourself, pursue what you wantto pursue to really learn about
who you are.
I think that is so important.
Leah (23:09):
It's huge.
I mean, that will change thewhole trajectory of your life
and the relationships that youchoose.
Because when you are living alife that feels aligned, it
feels good to you, you're happyand you're healthy and you're
fulfilled, and you're justpassing the time and you're you
have relationships with friendsand family, and maybe you
travel, and maybe you havehobbies, and then you have work
(23:30):
and you have your kids andyou're just doing having a full
life.
You're not going to worry somuch about what other people
think, especially when you startdating.
If if there's something that umabout yourself or about your
life or about your beliefs oryour perspectives, your choices
that somebody else doesn't like,they don't need to.
(23:51):
That's that's not your yourperson.
And then you're not going tofeel that pressure to change,
like morph into someone just tomake this person happy because
you already know that your lifeis full and your standards are a
lot higher, right?
When you know your dealbreakers and um you know what
you need in a partner, and thatwill change how you act when you
(24:15):
date and when you when you arelooking for somebody.
Mary (24:18):
And I think we have to remember the context of marriage
that it was only about 50 yearsago that women could get a loan
for a house.
So our society has been set upthat we become a wife.
Like that is what we should bedoing.
And I think a lot of us, bothyou and I, recognize well,
that's not really where yourworth comes from.
(24:39):
But for a long time, you gotthe side eye, especially at my
age, the side eye of like, whyare you not married yet?
Why did you decide not to havekids?
Because those things were themeasure of how successful a
woman was.
Did you find a husband that hasa good job and can support you?
And I think we just haven'tcaught up.
I think some women arestarting, young women are
(25:00):
starting to catch up and like, Idon't need this.
But I think there are still alot of women that have a sense
of shame that they have not beenable to establish a deep,
committed, caring relationship.
Leah (25:13):
Yes.
Marriage is not, should not bethe end all be all goal, uh,
certainly.
Um, and yes, I think you'reright.
I mean, as generations, youknow, come and go, we're
learning more and more that thatreally um isn't what is most
important.
And when you're in a place nowwhere like so many women now uh
(25:36):
financially can stand on theirown, which I think has taken a
it's taken a long time for us toget here.
But now it's more and morewomen um they pay their own
bills, they're they're making agood income.
You know, they don't need torely on someone uh for their
resources.
That in and of itself is uh soempowering because you you if
(25:59):
you don't need someone, you'regoing to be very picky on who
you choose to bring into yourlife.
Um, I mean, I've made many uhrelationship choices based off
of survival mode, you know,because I was struggling
financially and because I wasjust trying to keep myself
afloat, I was desperate.
Um, I didn't realize it at thetime, but uh in retrospect, I
(26:20):
can see it much more clearly.
You know, I would move in withpeople way sooner than I should
have because financially it wasuh helpful and I needed the
help.
And I, and of course I thought,well, this will work out, it'll
be, you know, this will beokay.
And then it doesn't.
Um, so when you have thatpiece, not not only you're in a
place where you are fulfilledand happy on your own, but like
(26:44):
financially you can supportyourself, you don't need
someone.
And so um, yeah, it's it's uhthe goal is not to be partnered
up with someone.
The goal is to, I think, justbe happy and to like your life
and to feel like you're inalignment.
And so if if you enjoy having aromantic partner, great.
You do you.
Uh, if you enjoy being singleand having your own space and
(27:07):
not sharing it with anyone,great.
You do you.
Yeah, I think that people needto just uh live authentically.
That should be the goal, right?
Not, well, I did I need to getmarried and and and uh show
people because also um beingmarried doesn't mean you're
successful.
I mean, you know, I meanthere's so many people that
(27:28):
maybe they're still marriedlegally, but um they're not very
happy about it.
And if they had, you know, ifthey could, they would probably
uh leave that marriage, butthere's certain things that are
keeping them stuck.
Um, you know, be careful not tobe uh comparing yourself to
social media.
Uh the little snippets that wesee are just that.
They're snippets, you know, youreally don't know what's going
(27:49):
on behind closed doors.
And so that's another thing,too, is like, you know, they say
comparison is a thief of joy.
It's so true.
If you're if you're coming outof a divorce, um, be really
careful that you're not lettingyour social media feeds make you
feel worse about yourselfbecause you're comparing your
life to other people's andthinking that you're behind in
life or um, you know, you're afailure.
Uh, that's certainly not thecase.
(28:10):
And um just because someone'smarried doesn't mean that
they're happy.
Mary (28:15):
And just because someone's in a marriage doesn't mean it's
a perfect situation.
There's an awful lot that wedon't know behind the scenes.
Leah (28:23):
So, like you're saying, if you're seeing the vacations and
all the things that we tend toput the family photos and the
matching sweaters and the yeah,I mean, it looks good, but
whether or not it is good on theinside, you know, you don't
really know.
Mary (28:36):
Yeah.
So we haven't talked aboutchildren.
And I'm wondering in your work,when you have a woman who has
gone through divorce and she hasa child or two, but she is that
woman that just wants to goback into those relationships,
but is recognizing it'simpacting the kids.
How do you start with that orhow do you work with that?
Leah (29:00):
I think it's it's the same tools.
It's really asking yourself,well, why?
Why why do I want a newrelationship?
Is it to fill a void?
Is it because I'm lonely?
Is it because I don't feel goodabout myself?
Is it because I'm justdesperate for attention?
You know, those aren't that'snot a good foundation to build a
healthy long-term relationshipon.
Um, and certainly you don'twant to be bringing people in
(29:22):
and out of your kids' liveseither.
So um I think if you uh get tothe place where you feel ready
to date and and you want todate, I that's okay.
I would keep your kids out ofit and not introduce them until
it's been a while.
I mean, there really is nomagic formula, but I think it's
when you've dated someone longenough where you know that your
(29:45):
goal is to really make that likethe long haul kind of
situation, right?
Um, and even then you don'tknow.
I mean, sometimes it might itdoesn't work out, but um, you
don't want to be bringing peoplein and out.
Um, but just make sure thatyou're doing it for the right
reasons.
I think that's It is that it'sthat self-awareness piece is
asking yourself.
Am I really just trying to filla void?
(30:06):
You know, am I just lonely?
Or did my ex move on quicklyand now I'm struggling because
they've got a girlfriend andthey're living their best life
and now I'm here alone and Idon't know how to deal with
that?
Those aren't good reasons toget back on those dating apps.
Mary (30:20):
We also think alone is failure often.
You know, when we see our exmove on, we don't know what that
relationship is like.
Maybe they fight all the timebehind closed doors.
We we make these assumptions,oh, he's happy now.
Leah (30:34):
Yes.
Mary (30:34):
And I'm alone.
But I think if we can reframethat, aloneness is, I think,
lovely.
I mean, being able to havesolitude and really just be
still with yourself and dowhatever you want really is a
source of strength.
Leah (30:50):
Yeah.
I that's a that's a total powermove, in my opinion.
Um, just knowing how to meetyour own needs and to make
yourself happy, um, that that isone of the most powerful things
that any woman can do forthemselves.
Mary (31:06):
And then you learn what does make you happy.
It's not that you get theperfect gift or the perfect
engagement ring or whatever itis, it's what lights you up.
And do you find, can you findsomeone that complements that?
Leah (31:22):
Yes.
Mary (31:22):
That you show up fully formed.
You know, we think of beingwith someone as a puzzle piece.
Well, with a puzzle piece,there's always something
missing.
Leah (31:30):
Yeah.
Mary (31:31):
So I think being able to show up as your full self and
then you become a Venn diagram,two full circles that overlap.
Leah (31:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, we're we're kind of fedthis narrative even from a
young, a young age.
I mean, we watch Disney movies,and you know, the prince is
always the one rescuing theprincess, or you know, Jerry
Maguire, you complete me.
You know, it's really toxic.
It's actually not realistic ortrue or healthy.
The the formula for a healthylong-term relationship is when
(32:03):
two healthy, whole, happyindividuals come together,
right?
And then they can live theirlives in alignment.
It's not someone uh trying tofix the other person.
It's not someone um gettingwith someone based off of uh
potential and hope, right?
We're not, you know, datingapps are not Pinterest.
We're not looking for like DIYprojects.
(32:24):
It's like I'm happy and healthyand I can hold myself
accountable and takeresponsibility for things.
You're happy and healthy, youcan hold yourself accountable,
take responsibility for things.
And then when we come together,we make a good team.
Mary (32:36):
Yes.
Leah (32:37):
Yes.
Mary (32:37):
Okay, so let me give you a little situation because one of
the things I've heard in mycareer the most from women
coming out of bad relationships,bad marriages, they're
terrified that they're gonnarepeat the pattern.
So how do you start with that?
What do you what do you workwith on women to not only give
them the confidence, but to helpthem step out of the pattern
(33:01):
and see what else is possible?
Leah (33:04):
Well, when you're in an unhealthy relationship, there
are always things that um youare either doing or not doing
that is uh part of the problem.
Not to say it's your fault, butif you're not setting and
enforcing boundaries, or if youdidn't trust your gut when you
(33:24):
saw or heard something and youjust brushed it off and decided
to just keep moving forward.
Um you weren't advocating foryourself or speaking up.
You weren't um acting as yourfull self, right?
You were trying trying to justbe what you thought they needed,
um, or you're excusing thing,you're making excuses for bad
(33:46):
behavior, right?
There's all these kind of signsand things.
So again, that when you canself-reflect and not blame
yourself or point the finger atyourself, but but look at it and
go, okay, what role did I play?
What things did I do that Iknow I'm not gonna do again?
Or what kind of red flags did Imiss?
And what things, whatboundaries was I not setting?
(34:07):
That is your key to then notdoing the same thing again.
So um you can learn so muchfrom a toxic relationship.
And if you if you do that andyou can reflect and observe,
then you have all of thisinformation now that you didn't
have before that you can bringwith you moving forward.
And then you can spot those redflags from a mile away.
(34:30):
And when you see kind ofrepeated behavior or lies or um
issues with communication, nowyou know, okay, I'm not gonna
make excuses for this.
I'm not gonna force this towork.
I know what happens when uh wecan't um disagree in a healthy
(34:50):
way, right?
I know what happens whensomeone is uh accusing me of
things that I didn't do.
I know what happens whensomeone doesn't trust me or
tries to control me in theseways.
So when this starts to come upagain in other relationships, I
already know how that storyplays out and I'm not going to
fall for it and I'm going tojust tap out and I'm gonna keep
(35:13):
on moving.
So it's really just reflectingon what worked and what didn't
and what you want to dodifferently in this relationship
or your past one, so that youthen have that wisdom to look at
new relationships in acompletely different way.
And then you'll choose partnersdifferently because of that.
Mary (35:29):
I think we feel it too.
I think in our bodies, werecognize that those things are
not okay, but we've been sosocialized to think that we are
supposed to bend and, you know,be malleable and maybe he just
had a bad day.
I feel like we have been put,women have typically been given
(35:51):
sort of the role of being theone that works it out, being the
one that gives in.
I think of it like it's adifferent for everyone, but that
somatic part of it where eitherour chest tightens or our
stomach tightens or we start tofeel like icky, but we talk
ourselves out of it.
Leah (36:09):
Yeah.
Mary (36:10):
And if we would just trust that instinct, it is almost
always right.
Leah (36:16):
Yes.
And that takes practice and ittakes uh patience, um,
especially if you were withsomeone who always made you
second guess yourself becausethey would manipulate you or
gaslight you.
Um, and so you're kind ofquestioning your own reality.
And so it does take time to getto that place where you can
trust yourself again.
Um, but yes, that is huge.
(36:36):
And I I've learned to it, it'staken me years to get to that
point personally, but now I doit even for the littlest things.
If I get just this little voicein my head that says, um, you
know, oh, make a make a right onthis street instead of going
straight.
Yeah, I don't even questionmyself anymore.
I just do it.
I don't try to analyze it.
I don't try to make sense, youknow, I just kind of trust that
(36:58):
instinct and that intuition.
Um, but also going back to whatwe said on learning how to
enjoy your own company andlearning to just be with
yourself, that also helps youconnect with yourself again,
your intuition, that inner voicewhen you can just spend time
alone without distractingyourself, without reaching for
the booze or without uh, youknow, scrolling on your phone
(37:21):
constantly or constantly havingsomething going on.
Can you just sit with yourselffor a few minutes and just
breathe and just exist?
Can you just go on a walkyourself, right?
Can you do things that are justwith you and learn to enjoy
your own company?
And when you do that, thathelps you quiet all that other
outside noise and really connectwith yourself so that you can
(37:44):
feel strong in your conviction.
And even when other peopledon't agree with or understand
your choices, it won't sway youbecause you know you better than
anyone.
Mary (37:55):
Yes.
And that ability to be still isso difficult because it's
uncomfortable.
So if we can be curious aboutthat, like I really am feeling
like like I want to rich aroundand I'm I'm I want to just get
on this dating app or I want togo do this thing.
If we can just allow it toexist, like just let that
(38:17):
restlessness be there becauseyou gotta retrain your brain to
just be in that stillness andyeah, and figure out what do I
want to do?
So that brings me to my nextquestion, Leah.
The theme of guilt, that women,when they make a decision based
on what is best for them,especially when there are kids
(38:39):
involved, I think one of thehugest emotions is guilt.
How do you help people navigatethat?
Leah (38:46):
So I think one of the most powerful questions you can ask
yourself as a mom, if you'redealing with that mom guilt, is
if my kids were in thatsituation, what would I want
them to do?
Because I'm telling you 100% ofthe time, the answer is not.
I would tell them to suck it upand deal with it.
(39:06):
You know, that's not you wouldsay, no, get out, come sleep on
my couch.
I've got a guest room.
How can I help?
Right.
You wouldn't want your kids togo through it.
So you've got to lead from thefront and do the same, right?
And so it's really just aperspective shift is what when
you think you are doing what'sbest for your kids, um, it's
(39:27):
it's not always what's best,right?
We we're told to just stick itout and deal with it and
marriage is forever and youknow, stay for the kids.
But at the end of the day, whatare you teaching them by
staying in a relationship that'snot serving either one of you,
right?
You owe your kids to set a goodexample.
And if showing them what ahealthy relationship is is not
(39:52):
an option, then show them it'sokay to walk away from
situations that aren't good forthem.
Show them what it's like tochoose yourself and to put
yourself first, right?
Would you want your kids tosacrifice their own health and
well-being just for the sake ofuh staying in a relationship
because they promised somebodythat they would?
(40:12):
You wouldn't.
You would never, you wouldnever want that for them.
And so do that for yourselftoo.
Sometimes those hard choicesare what empowers our kids the
most because you're teachingthem how to cope with adversity,
right?
Don't avoid the hard things, gothrough them and then pass
those tools along to your kids.
This was really hard.
I'm really stressed.
(40:33):
I have a lot of anger I'mdealing with, I'm really sad
today.
But here's what I'm gonna do toget through it.
I'm gonna journal, I'm gonnacall a friend, I'm gonna go for
a walk, I have a therapysession, I'm gonna talk about
it, I'm gonna listen to somemusic and I'm gonna dance it
out.
What tools, what are you doingto cope with the adversity?
That is more powerful to passon to your kids than living a
(40:55):
lie.
Mary (40:56):
Yeah.
And I think we can convinceourselves that they don't really
notice.
And I'll tell you right now.
They do.
They do notice.
They do.
Leah (41:05):
I've got clients who have their who have had their own
kids beg them to get a divorce.
Yeah.
Mary (41:10):
Yeah.
And and maybe that's a way ofletting fear win because we can
convince ourselves, well, itwould be worse for the kids,
instead of just looking at itlike they're seeing this.
And so you're either settingexample for a son that, you
know, this behavior from thefather, or and it doesn't have
to be even abuse.
It can just be that this is notfulfilling for me.
(41:33):
Yeah.
It's not my best life.
And I think especially for adaughter, she's watching you.
Oh, yeah.
And so I think that ability tobe strong and be honest and say,
like when you make a decisionto spend your life with
somebody, you have theinformation you have at the
time.
Leah (41:52):
Right.
Mary (41:52):
And we have this idea that a marriage vow should be
forever.
And if it isn't, you failed.
And that's not how humans work.
Right.
We we evolve.
And so I think normalizing thatfor children, and like I love
how you're saying, like, observeto them, like I'm having a hard
day, or just keep thecommunication open.
(42:12):
What is it like for you for usto be separate from dad now or
to be going back and forthbetween these homes?
I think we are so afraid tohave the conversation sometimes
with kids that then we'reteaching them this is not okay
to talk about because I'm gonnaupset someone.
Leah (42:30):
Right.
Yes.
I mean, you kids learn fromwatching you, not just from
listening to what you're saying,but they watch what you're
doing, right?
And so that that's what youhave to remember.
Um, and even though you thinkyou're doing a great job faking
it, they know.
They they sense it.
And when you are doing thingsthat are aligned with really
(42:55):
your your true authentic self orwho you really want to be, it
makes a huge difference.
I mean, I can tell you thiseven from personal experience,
not just from the hundreds ofwomen that I've worked with.
My daughter gets an extremelydifferent version of me now than
she did when I was in mymarriage.
I was not showing up as theversion of a mom that I wanted
(43:16):
to be.
I couldn't, I didn't have thecapacity to do that.
But because I was brave enoughto walk away, regardless of
everything that comes with that,the the judgment and the fear
and the financial stress and andall of it.
Now, because I did make thatchoice and I did put that work
(43:38):
into myself, she gets the bestversion of me.
I get to show up as the bestversion of myself for my
daughter.
And I'm so grateful for thatevery day that I walked away
from the thing that wasn'tserving me because I know now I
can serve her a hundred timesbetter.
Mary (43:56):
Yeah, I love that.
Well, what a greatconversation.
You do really important work.
So could you share a little bitabout what you offer in your
work?
What is it like to work withyou and where people can find
you?
And then I'll link it all inour show notes.
Leah (44:11):
Yes.
So you can find me.
I'm on all the socials.
My handle is at mindfullyready, or you can go to
mindfullyready.com.
Uh, I have digital resources,one-on-one coaching, uh, free
support groups, and also uhonline courses and a private
membership uh for moms thatsupports them through high
conflict divorce andco-parenting.
(44:31):
So wherever you're at, whateveryou need, um I've I've got
something to help you on yourjourney.
Mary (44:36):
So important.
Because I also think people canfeel really alone, like no one
else is going through this, eventhough you know it, you're like
we mentioned about socialmedia, you don't see it.
You think, oh, they gotdivorced, but look, it all went
fine and everybody's happy.
And that's rarely the case.
Leah (44:52):
Yes.
Uh divorce is very isolating.
Um, you know, even when someonein your life um has gone
through it, the chances of themhaving the same experience are
rare, right?
And so it really is unique toyou.
So it is important to connectwith people um who have the
tools and who can guide you andsupport you so that you can make
it to the other side uh with alot more confidence and clarity
(45:15):
instead of uh learningeverything the hard way.
Mary (45:17):
Yeah.
And one more thing thatoccurred to me that I want to
mention, I think having thatopen, honest conversation with
kids is important because theycan also often think, is it
because I got bad grades or isam I stressing my parents to the
point they're gonna get adivorce?
You know, kids, they look atwhat's happening and they often
(45:38):
think, I wonder if this is thisis because of me, or or I have
to do something with this.
And so I think that's anotherreason it's important to have
those conversations to normalizethat sometimes adults make a
decision and they can still, youknow, care about each other
even and not decide not to betogether, but they love their
(45:58):
children and that's not whatit's about.
Leah (46:01):
Absolutely.
Mary (46:02):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here.
What a great conversation.
Thank you for having me.
You're welcome.
And thanks to everyone forlistening.
Would you love to find out howto connect to your true inner
nature and use that knowledge tolive a more fulfilled and dare
I say fun life?
Click the link at the bottom ofthe show notes,
maryrothwell.net forward slashnature knows, to get onto my
(46:26):
exclusive launch team with earlyaccess to my book at cost, so
you can read and give me anhonest review.
You'll also get fun freebiesand a chance to vote for the
cover design.
Fun fact, my sister isdesigning one of the covers.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
You can't make what other people choose to do mean
something about you.
Mary (00:11):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:34):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
I didn't get married for thefirst time until I was 37.
I dated my first husband forover three years before we did
get married.
(00:55):
We divorced 10 years later.
Of course, I never anticipatedthat that would happen to me.
My parents were married fornearly 50 years before my dad
died.
I think what saved me fromfeeling guilt and shame for not,
quote, making it work was thatmy ex-husband was the one that
left.
And up until then, I had beentrying to keep the fire going,
(01:15):
not allowing myself to recognizethat the marriage had devolved
into a pile of damp twigs.
It was all smoke.
Before and after my marriage, Idated a lot.
I also had several multipleyear-long relationships in my
life.
My husband now is the bestpartner I could have hoped for.
But I had to try and fail.
And I use that word without anynegative meaning to find what I
(01:39):
have now.
I think my experience afterdivorce was actually easier
because I didn't have kids.
I often thought how complicatedit would have been to try to
maintain a relationship with myex and his girlfriend in order
to give kids a more healthyparenting experience.
My guest today is kind of adivorce expert.
Not only has she navigated herown divorces, but like so many
(02:01):
of my guests, she now uses thewisdom she's gained to help
other women.
I'm looking forward toexploring with her, moving on
after divorce, both with andwithout children.
Leah Maser is the down-to-earthdivorce recovery queen with a
fierce heart, a sharp mind, andzero time for BS.
She's walked through fire morethan once, healed her way
(02:22):
forward, and built an empoweringonline space where single moms
don't just survive, they rise.
A certified coach, passionatecreator, and self-growth junkie,
she's the relatable bestie youwish you had during your
divorce.
I can relate, blending wisdom,wit, and that unshakable belief
that your next chapter can beyour best one.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Leah.
(02:44):
Thank you so much for havingme.
I am glad you're here.
And I would love to start withyou sharing some of the
highlights or lowlights of yourlife that brought you to where
you are.
What gave you the insight andhelped you to do the work you do
today?
Leah (03:00):
So uh when I was 16 years old, my mom had an asthma attack
in our home and died.
Uh extremely tragic andtraumatic, as you can imagine.
And five years later, my dadhad pancreatic cancer and died
at 46 years old.
So by the time I was 21 yearsold, uh, and I'm an only child,
(03:23):
so it was really just me alonein the world trying to figure
things out.
And I didn't realize it at thetime, but uh those losses really
left me with severe abandonmentissues, fear of being alone.
And so my coping mechanismbecame serial monogamy.
I mean, I was hopping fromrelationship to relationship for
years because those were kindof the buoys keeping me afloat.
(03:45):
Uh, if I wasn't in arelationship, I felt like I was
just kind of like floatingaround on the planet by myself.
And so a lot of failedrelationships later, uh, and my
second divorce was really justmy ugly wake-up call of for me
to focus on myself and go, okay,what why do I keep making the
choices I'm making?
Why do I find myself in thesetypes of relationships over and
(04:08):
over?
What do I need to dodifferently to get different
results?
And that was kind of thecatalyst for that healing and
self-growth journey for myself,you know, getting into all
things, you know, cultivatingself-awareness and mindfulness
and meditation and journalingand just all the things to help
figure out why I was making thechoices I was making.
And that's what empowered me tomake better choices moving
(04:30):
forward.
So then when I kind of got tothe, you know, quote unquote
other side, I had a wholetoolkit, right?
I had I had a ton of differentresources and tools to then be
able to help other women goingthrough divorce uh or separation
so that they don't have tolearn things the hard way like I
did.
Mary (04:51):
Well, and it's so interesting that that was part
of your journey because I had myparents into well into my
adulthood, but after my divorce,I swung crazy, like
overcompensated in onedirection, and then that didn't
work out and overcompensated inanother direction.
And it's so that sort offrantic scrambling to do it
(05:15):
right the next time.
Yeah, but you really have tostop and reflect on why did I
make the choices?
Leah (05:22):
What went into those choices, right?
Yes, it's huge.
When you come out of arelationship, it's very easy to
point the finger and say, well,they never did this and they
kept doing this and they nevershowed up the way they needed
to.
And all of that is valid, I'msure, but that's not going to
help you choose differentpartners moving forward.
Partners who are more alignedwith really what you need and
(05:44):
who you want to be.
That empowerment piece comesfrom self-reflection and you
looking back and going, okay,but what role did I play in this
relationship?
Because maybe everything wasn'tmy fault, but I did play a
role.
So where was I mentally andemotionally when I started that
relationship?
What red flags did I miss orignore?
What boundaries was I notsetting, right?
(06:06):
How do I want to show updifferently?
And what will I or will I nottolerate moving forward in
relationships?
Mary (06:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think knowing that going intoit is so much better, so much
makes it so much easier.
But we often don't step backand take a take a breath and try
to figure it out.
So what do you feel like inyour work have, or maybe from
your own personal experience,what are some of the biggest
(06:33):
mistakes women do make afterdivorces and how do you think
they can maybe sidestep them?
Leah (06:39):
One of the biggest mistakes is hopping into a
relationship too soon.
Um, and it's completelyunderstandable.
I've been there myself.
It's an easy distraction.
It's a way to just kind of numbout, it's a way to make you
feel better about yourself.
You know, if you've been in amarriage where you really
haven't gotten positiveattention or affection from
(07:00):
someone for maybe sometimesyears, you could be wanting that
and desperate for that from forsomeone else.
Um, or you just don't know howto be alone.
And so that's a way to kind offill that void.
So there's a lot of reasonsthat make sense why people would
do that.
However, when you're choosing apartner from a place of lack,
and when you're choosing apartner to fill a void within
(07:22):
yourself, you are not gonna bechoosing your ideal partner,
right?
You're probably choosingsomeone that maybe temporarily,
like a band-aid, will feel goodor help out, but that
relationship probably has anexpiration date, and then you're
gonna wind up right back whereyou started.
So you really have to take thetime to figure out who you are,
(07:43):
what you need, how to meet yourown needs, right?
And get yourself to a placewhere you feel whole and happy
and fulfilled all by yourselfbecause then you're gonna show
up on those dates verydifferently.
You're not gonna show upthinking, well, is he gonna like
me?
And am I saying the rightthing?
And did I wear the rightclothes?
(08:04):
And is he gonna think I havetoo much baggage?
That's not gonna be the innerdialogue anymore.
It's going to be, are you whatI'm looking for?
Do you have what I need in arelationship?
Are you adding value to mylife?
Because if the answer is no, Idon't need it then.
I'm good.
I don't need this relationship,right?
A relationship should be abonus.
(08:24):
It shouldn't be something youneed in order to feel happy or
whole or enough or fulfilled.
Mary (08:30):
I love how you just said all of that.
Because I think so often womenare socialized that they need to
be, look, act a certain waybecause they want to find a
partner.
Yes.
So we go into it with that thatexactly what you're saying.
Like, you know, we try on 10different outfits, and you know
(08:54):
what?
You can only maintain whateverillusion you're starting with
for so long.
Because at some point you haveto be real.
And so I think that's sometimeswhere we get tripped up too.
We want to want that to be aperfect interaction and we're
weighing everything we'resaying, and we're afraid to eat
because what are we going tolook like when we eat?
And it's like, well, if thatbecomes your partner, they're
(09:15):
going to see you in a way worsesituation than just eating an
appetizer.
Leah (09:20):
Yeah.
So it's really just gettingcomfortable with yourself,
knowing that you are enough justas you are.
You like yourself, you respectyourself, and then you're going
to attract partners who do thesame.
And you don't have to be anyonedifferent or shrink yourself to
get them to like you.
Because at the end of the day,if they don't like how you do
(09:41):
something, that's not yourperson.
Thank you.
Next.
Mary (09:44):
Yeah.
Well, and I think when we'restarting in a relationship,
there is definitely the kind oflike the high of the
neurotransmitters, of thedopamine, and all of that new
love stuff feels really good.
And when you're a serial dater,it's like a high every time.
(10:05):
You can be perfect to someoneuntil you're not.
And that fairy tale seems sopossible.
Leah (10:13):
Yes.
And that's why it's soimportant to go slow and take
your time.
One of the most common fears Ihear from clients is, especially
particularly those coming outof um toxic relationships.
Like if they were with anarcissist, for example, they're
so scared that they're justgoing to find themselves in
another relationship like that.
Like, how do I know I'm notgoing to wind up with someone
(10:36):
like this again?
And really, the secret sauce istake your time because
everyone's always on their bestbehavior for those first, you
know, 90 days, right?
When all those chemical, thosehappy chemicals are going
through your brain or howeverlong, you know, that takes.
And so you really have to giveyourself time to see how this
person acts when real lifethings happen.
(10:58):
Like what happens when they getcaught in a traffic jam?
What happens when anappointment gets canceled that
was unexpected, right?
What happens when like thingsuh ruin their plans?
How do they respond to that?
How do they react?
And and is that what you need?
Is this someone where you knowthat you can approach these
(11:18):
issues and communicate well?
Or is this something that maybeyou feel like, you know what,
this isn't aligned with me.
This isn't the right uh kind ofperson for who I need in in my
life.
So take your time, you know,there's no rush.
And time really will also showyou all those red flags.
I mean, everybody, again, is ontheir best behavior in the
beginning, but that's notsustainable for somebody who's
(11:41):
not being genuine.
So the the longer you givethem, all of those things will
kind of start to unearththemselves.
Mary (11:48):
And I think another mistake sometimes women make is
when something isn't going rightor when there is a reaction,
like let's say you're late to adate and it's unavoidable, it's
not your fault, but there's avery strong negative reaction
from the other person.
We are very quick to blameourselves.
This is my fault.
I should have done this, Ishould have done this
(12:08):
differently.
So is that a theme you see alot?
And when you do see it, how doyou help women see that more
clearly that they're notresponsible for the success of a
relationship?
Leah (12:21):
Yeah, I think it's such a such a delicate balance, right?
Because you do want to besomeone who can hold yourself
accountable and takeresponsibility when you do make
mistakes, but at the same time,you don't want to be someone
who's always blaming yourselffor everything.
So I think just cultivatingself-awareness is that key piece
and um trying to see thingsmore objectively instead of from
(12:44):
an ego base.
And so when you do show up, ifit really was something that was
completely out of your hands,like a car accident or a traffic
jam or something like you lefton time, you would have gotten
there on time if it weren't forthis thing that was out of your
hands.
Uh, if that person isn'tunderstanding to that, that's
certainly not something youshould be feeling bad about or
taking the blame for.
If anything, that's kind of asign that this person just isn't
(13:07):
maybe capable of empathy orjust have having that compassion
piece.
And so that would be a red flagto me.
On the other hand, if you maybeyou were just, you know, bad at
time management that day andyou you tried on too many
outfits and you got there toolate, you know, which happens
too.
We're all human, right?
And you get there late and andyou know, maybe they're not too
happy about it, then also youcan own up and say, hey, listen,
(13:29):
you know, you're right, I'msorry.
I didn't mean to be rude.
Um, you know, it, I, I, Ishould have maybe planned ahead
a little bit better and insteadof leaving you waiting.
You know, it's almost likeflipping the flipping the um the
seat, like in reverse.
You know, if it was you andthat person came and it was
really just a time managementissue and they should have done
a better job so that theyconsidered you and in your time,
(13:51):
um, you would probably wantthem to apologize, right?
Because if that's respectful.
Um, if it was somethingcompletely out of their control,
would you be mad about it?
And so if you wouldn't, wellthen kind of look at them the
same way.
You know, if they'reoverreacting to something that
was out of your control, that'sprobably a red flag.
Mary (14:09):
Yeah.
Well, and I like the idea oftaking the break, not falling
right back into the next thingbecause it's really easy to do
that.
Again, we have things likeonline dating.
So you can get your dopaminehit by go, it's like shopping,
right?
You can go on there and startto start to look at what are all
the options.
And so when a woman is reallychomping at the bit, and I think
(14:31):
there's also some of I want todo over because I want to do it
quote right this time.
We went, we rush to try to likedo it right the next time.
How do you advise women to takethis break when they're really
wanting to lean into the nextthing?
Leah (14:46):
Yeah.
So it's so important to do acouple of things.
One is you need to make surethat you're giving yourself the
space to heal, but also to learnhow to enjoy your own company.
Figure out how to just likebeing by yourself and pass the
time and take yourself out ondates and do things that are fun
for you.
Also, hobbies and creativeoutlets are huge.
(15:09):
Uh, not only is that a greatspace for you to get to know
yourself, uh, to build yourconfidence if you're doing
things that uh are fun or thatum, you know, it gives you
something to look forward to.
But also it, if you're goingand doing things that you enjoy,
you're creating opportunitiesto meet like-minded people.
And so making friends andhaving that community and all of
(15:31):
those things plays into you notfeeling so desperate to like
find another relationship.
Um after my second divorce, oras my second marriage was
crumbling, really, um, I decidedI wanted to pursue singing.
Singing was something I alwaysloved to do, but I was kind of
like a closet singer.
It wasn't something that I liketo told people about.
(15:51):
But I was like, you know what?
New chapter, new me.
I'm gonna try thingsdifferently this time.
And so I went online and Ifound a local band that was
auditioning lead vocalists.
And I said, you know what?
I'm gonna do it.
And um, I was terrified.
I mean, the whole drive there,I was like sweating and shaking
and listening to confidencehypnosis apps to try to pump me
(16:12):
up.
Um, but I told myself, you knowwhat?
I'm just so proud of myself forshowing up.
Like, regardless of even whatthe result is of this, I'm just
I'm pushing myself outside of mycomfort zone and I'm gonna show
up and I'm gonna give it a try.
So I did the audition, I didthe best I could, and I ended up
getting the part.
And I was so proud of myself.
And so then I had this thingthat I was doing that was just
(16:33):
for me that I was excited aboutand I looked forward to and I
was passionate about.
And um, it was it was anoutlet, it was a creative
outlet.
And also I met so many peopleover the years then from from
being in different bands andconnected with other local
musicians.
And so this was a part of mylife that brought me so much
fulfillment.
And every time I got up to thatmicrophone, uh my confidence
(16:55):
built.
So then I was also building myconfidence and figuring out who
I was and like showing myselfwhat I was really capable of.
So just and it could beanything.
I mean, maybe you want ahorseback ride, maybe you want
to go hiking, maybe you want topick up photography, dance
class.
I mean, it's traveling solo.
It doesn't matter what it is,whatever that thing is that's
calling you, go do it.
Lean into it.
(17:15):
That that's that's your time toexplore and experiment and
discover and really find thethings that bring you joy and
fulfillment.
And also you'll learn a lotabout yourself that way as well.
And so when you're doing thosethings, that helps you feel more
solid on your own and on yourown two feet, and you're not so
desperate to like hurry up andget partnered up with someone
(17:36):
romantically.
Mary (17:38):
Yes, I love all of that because uh so many women.
Well, I'm a therapist, so a lotI I encounter a lot of women
who they don't know themselves.
And I can only imagine as ayoung woman losing both your
parents before you really wereable to securely be a young
adult yourself.
I can imagine that just filledyour field of vision, so to
(18:00):
speak.
Like those were so huge, Ican't even imagine moving past
that to try to figure out, okay,who am I?
Because those losses are somuch a part of who you were and
are.
Leah (18:13):
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, I spent so many yearslost.
And that's why I wound up inthe wrong relationships over and
over and over again.
And so that's that's why mysecond divorce was really my
ugly wake-up call.
I was like, okay, I can't keepdoing this.
And now I can't keep draggingmy daughter through this.
Like, I need to figure out whyI keep finding myself in this
position so that I can makedifferent decisions that give me
(18:36):
different results.
Mary (18:37):
Yeah.
And I think one of the thingsthat is really important is that
you're talking about it.
You're not out there saying I'mhelping women and not talking
about the fact that you didn'tdo some of these things
initially that now you're tryingto help people do because we're
taught that when a marriagedoesn't work, we should feel
ashamed of that.
Leah (18:56):
Yes.
Mary (18:56):
And I think we need to break out of that.
Leah (18:58):
Oh, it drives me nuts.
I don't understand how there'sstill such a stigma around
divorce, honestly, with howcommon it is.
Um, and I don't know why welook at a divorce as a failure.
Um, I don't see it like that.
My personal perspective is ifyou learned something, it's not
a failure.
(19:18):
I mean, that's growth, right?
Sometimes you have to haverelationships that don't work so
that you can learn what you doneed or what you will look for
the next time, or what will workfor you.
I'm it's it's wild thatmarriage is one of those things
that people expect you to getright on the first try.
Like, why?
What would make anyone thinkthat that's, you know, what's
(19:41):
the likelihood of thathappening?
Everything else we're allowedto have, we give ourselves the
grace to try and fail and tryand fail.
And then you learn and you growand you evolve.
Um, and I really look atmarriage the same way.
I mean, nobody gets married andthinking they're gonna wind up
divorced.
Yeah, but also no good marriageends in divorce.
(20:02):
So at some point, you realizethat something's not working for
you.
Great, good for you.
You learned a lot aboutyourself, about relationships,
about marriage, probably aboutlife, maybe about parenting.
You learn so much.
So take that wisdom, bring itwith you into the next chapter
so that you can make choicesthat align with who you want to
(20:24):
be moving forward.
Mary (20:26):
Yes.
And I, as I said, I'm atherapist.
And so people often think,well, you must make great
decisions.
Right.
But it's like anything, you canbe a roofer and your own roof
can leak because you don't haveenough time to fix it.
So I thought, I'm gonna do thisonce, I'm gonna do it right.
And I was 37, and there werethings that happened I didn't
(20:50):
have control over.
And it, you know, so I thinksometimes the narrative for
women can be if only I had beenfill in the blank, sexier, more
attentive, a better cook.
We tend to really take on a lotof the responsibility for our
partner.
And I'm talking right nowheterosexual relationships, a
(21:11):
lot of responsibility forsomething not working or our
partner not being interested oror sticking around.
Do you see that in your work?
Leah (21:20):
Definitely.
Uh, especially when theirpartner um cheats or leaves and
immediately is in anotherrelationship, it's really easy
to blame yourself.
But you can't make what otherpeople choose to do mean
something about you because itdoesn't, right?
If they're choosing to um moveon quickly, or if they chose to
(21:45):
have an affair, uh at the end ofthe day, that really doesn't
have anything to do with you.
And it has a lot everything todo with them and their own
issues and their own childhoodtraumas that maybe they didn't
address, and it's it's all theirown stuff, right?
So you deserve to be withsomeone who you don't have to
convince of your value.
(22:07):
You shouldn't have to sellsomeone on why they should love
you.
And so if you're in a apartnership with someone who
doesn't choose you, that's notyour fault.
And you need to choose yourselfand walk away and pour into
yourself so that you can havepeace and happiness and joy and
(22:27):
fulfillment and not rely onsomeone else to do that for you.
Mary (22:31):
And I think too often when we get into a relationship,
we're looking at that man forthe clues.
How am I supposed to act?
We we read these microexpressions really well.
Oh, I said that.
He didn't like that.
And when you talk about takingtime to be alone, whether that
is after a divorce or evenbefore you start seriously
(22:53):
dating, maybe you want toestablish a career, that is when
you can get very grounded inyour ability to support
yourself, pursue what you wantto pursue to really learn about
who you are.
I think that is so important.
Leah (23:09):
It's huge.
I mean, that will change thewhole trajectory of your life
and the relationships that youchoose.
Because when you are living alife that feels aligned, it
feels good to you, you're happyand you're healthy and you're
fulfilled, and you're justpassing the time and you're you
have relationships with friendsand family, and maybe you
travel, and maybe you havehobbies, and then you have work
(23:30):
and you have your kids andyou're just doing having a full
life.
You're not going to worry somuch about what other people
think, especially when you startdating.
If if there's something that umabout yourself or about your
life or about your beliefs oryour perspectives, your choices
that somebody else doesn't like,they don't need to.
(23:51):
That's that's not your yourperson.
And then you're not going tofeel that pressure to change,
like morph into someone just tomake this person happy because
you already know that your lifeis full and your standards are a
lot higher, right?
When you know your dealbreakers and um you know what
you need in a partner, and thatwill change how you act when you
(24:15):
date and when you when you arelooking for somebody.
Mary (24:18):
And I think we have to remember the context of marriage
that it was only about 50 yearsago that women could get a loan
for a house.
So our society has been set upthat we become a wife.
Like that is what we should bedoing.
And I think a lot of us, bothyou and I, recognize well,
that's not really where yourworth comes from.
(24:39):
But for a long time, you gotthe side eye, especially at my
age, the side eye of like, whyare you not married yet?
Why did you decide not to havekids?
Because those things were themeasure of how successful a
woman was.
Did you find a husband that hasa good job and can support you?
And I think we just haven'tcaught up.
I think some women arestarting, young women are
(25:00):
starting to catch up and like, Idon't need this.
But I think there are still alot of women that have a sense
of shame that they have not beenable to establish a deep,
committed, caring relationship.
Leah (25:13):
Yes.
Marriage is not, should not bethe end all be all goal, uh,
certainly.
Um, and yes, I think you'reright.
I mean, as generations, youknow, come and go, we're
learning more and more that thatreally um isn't what is most
important.
And when you're in a place nowwhere like so many women now uh
(25:36):
financially can stand on theirown, which I think has taken a
it's taken a long time for us toget here.
But now it's more and morewomen um they pay their own
bills, they're they're making agood income.
You know, they don't need torely on someone uh for their
resources.
That in and of itself is uh soempowering because you you if
(25:59):
you don't need someone, you'regoing to be very picky on who
you choose to bring into yourlife.
Um, I mean, I've made many uhrelationship choices based off
of survival mode, you know,because I was struggling
financially and because I wasjust trying to keep myself
afloat, I was desperate.
Um, I didn't realize it at thetime, but uh in retrospect, I
(26:20):
can see it much more clearly.
You know, I would move in withpeople way sooner than I should
have because financially it wasuh helpful and I needed the
help.
And I, and of course I thought,well, this will work out, it'll
be, you know, this will beokay.
And then it doesn't.
Um, so when you have thatpiece, not not only you're in a
place where you are fulfilledand happy on your own, but like
(26:44):
financially you can supportyourself, you don't need
someone.
And so um, yeah, it's it's uhthe goal is not to be partnered
up with someone.
The goal is to, I think, justbe happy and to like your life
and to feel like you're inalignment.
And so if if you enjoy having aromantic partner, great.
You do you.
Uh, if you enjoy being singleand having your own space and
(27:07):
not sharing it with anyone,great.
You do you.
Yeah, I think that people needto just uh live authentically.
That should be the goal, right?
Not, well, I did I need to getmarried and and and uh show
people because also um beingmarried doesn't mean you're
successful.
I mean, you know, I meanthere's so many people that
(27:28):
maybe they're still marriedlegally, but um they're not very
happy about it.
And if they had, you know, ifthey could, they would probably
uh leave that marriage, butthere's certain things that are
keeping them stuck.
Um, you know, be careful not tobe uh comparing yourself to
social media.
Uh the little snippets that wesee are just that.
They're snippets, you know, youreally don't know what's going
(27:49):
on behind closed doors.
And so that's another thing,too, is like, you know, they say
comparison is a thief of joy.
It's so true.
If you're if you're coming outof a divorce, um, be really
careful that you're not lettingyour social media feeds make you
feel worse about yourselfbecause you're comparing your
life to other people's andthinking that you're behind in
life or um, you know, you're afailure.
Uh, that's certainly not thecase.
(28:10):
And um just because someone'smarried doesn't mean that
they're happy.
Mary (28:15):
And just because someone's in a marriage doesn't mean it's
a perfect situation.
There's an awful lot that wedon't know behind the scenes.
Leah (28:23):
So, like you're saying, if you're seeing the vacations and
all the things that we tend toput the family photos and the
matching sweaters and the yeah,I mean, it looks good, but
whether or not it is good on theinside, you know, you don't
really know.
Mary (28:36):
Yeah.
So we haven't talked aboutchildren.
And I'm wondering in your work,when you have a woman who has
gone through divorce and she hasa child or two, but she is that
woman that just wants to goback into those relationships,
but is recognizing it'simpacting the kids.
How do you start with that orhow do you work with that?
Leah (29:00):
I think it's it's the same tools.
It's really asking yourself,well, why?
Why why do I want a newrelationship?
Is it to fill a void?
Is it because I'm lonely?
Is it because I don't feel goodabout myself?
Is it because I'm justdesperate for attention?
You know, those aren't that'snot a good foundation to build a
healthy long-term relationshipon.
Um, and certainly you don'twant to be bringing people in
(29:22):
and out of your kids' liveseither.
So um I think if you uh get tothe place where you feel ready
to date and and you want todate, I that's okay.
I would keep your kids out ofit and not introduce them until
it's been a while.
I mean, there really is nomagic formula, but I think it's
when you've dated someone longenough where you know that your
(29:45):
goal is to really make that likethe long haul kind of
situation, right?
Um, and even then you don'tknow.
I mean, sometimes it might itdoesn't work out, but um, you
don't want to be bringing peoplein and out.
Um, but just make sure thatyou're doing it for the right
reasons.
I think that's It is that it'sthat self-awareness piece is
asking yourself.
Am I really just trying to filla void?
(30:06):
You know, am I just lonely?
Or did my ex move on quicklyand now I'm struggling because
they've got a girlfriend andthey're living their best life
and now I'm here alone and Idon't know how to deal with
that?
Those aren't good reasons toget back on those dating apps.
Mary (30:20):
We also think alone is failure often.
You know, when we see our exmove on, we don't know what that
relationship is like.
Maybe they fight all the timebehind closed doors.
We we make these assumptions,oh, he's happy now.
Leah (30:34):
Yes.
Mary (30:34):
And I'm alone.
But I think if we can reframethat, aloneness is, I think,
lovely.
I mean, being able to havesolitude and really just be
still with yourself and dowhatever you want really is a
source of strength.
Leah (30:50):
Yeah.
I that's a that's a total powermove, in my opinion.
Um, just knowing how to meetyour own needs and to make
yourself happy, um, that that isone of the most powerful things
that any woman can do forthemselves.
Mary (31:06):
And then you learn what does make you happy.
It's not that you get theperfect gift or the perfect
engagement ring or whatever itis, it's what lights you up.
And do you find, can you findsomeone that complements that?
Leah (31:22):
Yes.
Mary (31:22):
That you show up fully formed.
You know, we think of beingwith someone as a puzzle piece.
Well, with a puzzle piece,there's always something
missing.
Leah (31:30):
Yeah.
Mary (31:31):
So I think being able to show up as your full self and
then you become a Venn diagram,two full circles that overlap.
Leah (31:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, we're we're kind of fedthis narrative even from a
young, a young age.
I mean, we watch Disney movies,and you know, the prince is
always the one rescuing theprincess, or you know, Jerry
Maguire, you complete me.
You know, it's really toxic.
It's actually not realistic ortrue or healthy.
The the formula for a healthylong-term relationship is when
(32:03):
two healthy, whole, happyindividuals come together,
right?
And then they can live theirlives in alignment.
It's not someone uh trying tofix the other person.
It's not someone um gettingwith someone based off of uh
potential and hope, right?
We're not, you know, datingapps are not Pinterest.
We're not looking for like DIYprojects.
(32:24):
It's like I'm happy and healthyand I can hold myself
accountable and takeresponsibility for things.
You're happy and healthy, youcan hold yourself accountable,
take responsibility for things.
And then when we come together,we make a good team.
Mary (32:36):
Yes.
Leah (32:37):
Yes.
Mary (32:37):
Okay, so let me give you a little situation because one of
the things I've heard in mycareer the most from women
coming out of bad relationships,bad marriages, they're
terrified that they're gonnarepeat the pattern.
So how do you start with that?
What do you what do you workwith on women to not only give
them the confidence, but to helpthem step out of the pattern
(33:01):
and see what else is possible?
Leah (33:04):
Well, when you're in an unhealthy relationship, there
are always things that um youare either doing or not doing
that is uh part of the problem.
Not to say it's your fault, butif you're not setting and
enforcing boundaries, or if youdidn't trust your gut when you
(33:24):
saw or heard something and youjust brushed it off and decided
to just keep moving forward.
Um you weren't advocating foryourself or speaking up.
You weren't um acting as yourfull self, right?
You were trying trying to justbe what you thought they needed,
um, or you're excusing thing,you're making excuses for bad
(33:46):
behavior, right?
There's all these kind of signsand things.
So again, that when you canself-reflect and not blame
yourself or point the finger atyourself, but but look at it and
go, okay, what role did I play?
What things did I do that Iknow I'm not gonna do again?
Or what kind of red flags did Imiss?
And what things, whatboundaries was I not setting?
(34:07):
That is your key to then notdoing the same thing again.
So um you can learn so muchfrom a toxic relationship.
And if you if you do that andyou can reflect and observe,
then you have all of thisinformation now that you didn't
have before that you can bringwith you moving forward.
And then you can spot those redflags from a mile away.
(34:30):
And when you see kind ofrepeated behavior or lies or um
issues with communication, nowyou know, okay, I'm not gonna
make excuses for this.
I'm not gonna force this towork.
I know what happens when uh wecan't um disagree in a healthy
(34:50):
way, right?
I know what happens whensomeone is uh accusing me of
things that I didn't do.
I know what happens whensomeone doesn't trust me or
tries to control me in theseways.
So when this starts to come upagain in other relationships, I
already know how that storyplays out and I'm not going to
fall for it and I'm going tojust tap out and I'm gonna keep
(35:13):
on moving.
So it's really just reflectingon what worked and what didn't
and what you want to dodifferently in this relationship
or your past one, so that youthen have that wisdom to look at
new relationships in acompletely different way.
And then you'll choose partnersdifferently because of that.
Mary (35:29):
I think we feel it too.
I think in our bodies, werecognize that those things are
not okay, but we've been sosocialized to think that we are
supposed to bend and, you know,be malleable and maybe he just
had a bad day.
I feel like we have been put,women have typically been given
(35:51):
sort of the role of being theone that works it out, being the
one that gives in.
I think of it like it's adifferent for everyone, but that
somatic part of it where eitherour chest tightens or our
stomach tightens or we start tofeel like icky, but we talk
ourselves out of it.
Leah (36:09):
Yeah.
Mary (36:10):
And if we would just trust that instinct, it is almost
always right.
Leah (36:16):
Yes.
And that takes practice and ittakes uh patience, um,
especially if you were withsomeone who always made you
second guess yourself becausethey would manipulate you or
gaslight you.
Um, and so you're kind ofquestioning your own reality.
And so it does take time to getto that place where you can
trust yourself again.
Um, but yes, that is huge.
(36:36):
And I I've learned to it, it'staken me years to get to that
point personally, but now I doit even for the littlest things.
If I get just this little voicein my head that says, um, you
know, oh, make a make a right onthis street instead of going
straight.
Yeah, I don't even questionmyself anymore.
I just do it.
I don't try to analyze it.
I don't try to make sense, youknow, I just kind of trust that
(36:58):
instinct and that intuition.
Um, but also going back to whatwe said on learning how to
enjoy your own company andlearning to just be with
yourself, that also helps youconnect with yourself again,
your intuition, that inner voicewhen you can just spend time
alone without distractingyourself, without reaching for
the booze or without uh, youknow, scrolling on your phone
(37:21):
constantly or constantly havingsomething going on.
Can you just sit with yourselffor a few minutes and just
breathe and just exist?
Can you just go on a walkyourself, right?
Can you do things that are justwith you and learn to enjoy
your own company?
And when you do that, thathelps you quiet all that other
outside noise and really connectwith yourself so that you can
(37:44):
feel strong in your conviction.
And even when other peopledon't agree with or understand
your choices, it won't sway youbecause you know you better than
anyone.
Mary (37:55):
Yes.
And that ability to be still isso difficult because it's
uncomfortable.
So if we can be curious aboutthat, like I really am feeling
like like I want to rich aroundand I'm I'm I want to just get
on this dating app or I want togo do this thing.
If we can just allow it toexist, like just let that
(38:17):
restlessness be there becauseyou gotta retrain your brain to
just be in that stillness andyeah, and figure out what do I
want to do?
So that brings me to my nextquestion, Leah.
The theme of guilt, that women,when they make a decision based
on what is best for them,especially when there are kids
(38:39):
involved, I think one of thehugest emotions is guilt.
How do you help people navigatethat?
Leah (38:46):
So I think one of the most powerful questions you can ask
yourself as a mom, if you'redealing with that mom guilt, is
if my kids were in thatsituation, what would I want
them to do?
Because I'm telling you 100% ofthe time, the answer is not.
I would tell them to suck it upand deal with it.
(39:06):
You know, that's not you wouldsay, no, get out, come sleep on
my couch.
I've got a guest room.
How can I help?
Right.
You wouldn't want your kids togo through it.
So you've got to lead from thefront and do the same, right?
And so it's really just aperspective shift is what when
you think you are doing what'sbest for your kids, um, it's
(39:27):
it's not always what's best,right?
We we're told to just stick itout and deal with it and
marriage is forever and youknow, stay for the kids.
But at the end of the day, whatare you teaching them by
staying in a relationship that'snot serving either one of you,
right?
You owe your kids to set a goodexample.
And if showing them what ahealthy relationship is is not
(39:52):
an option, then show them it'sokay to walk away from
situations that aren't good forthem.
Show them what it's like tochoose yourself and to put
yourself first, right?
Would you want your kids tosacrifice their own health and
well-being just for the sake ofuh staying in a relationship
because they promised somebodythat they would?
(40:12):
You wouldn't.
You would never, you wouldnever want that for them.
And so do that for yourselftoo.
Sometimes those hard choicesare what empowers our kids the
most because you're teachingthem how to cope with adversity,
right?
Don't avoid the hard things, gothrough them and then pass
those tools along to your kids.
This was really hard.
I'm really stressed.
(40:33):
I have a lot of anger I'mdealing with, I'm really sad
today.
But here's what I'm gonna do toget through it.
I'm gonna journal, I'm gonnacall a friend, I'm gonna go for
a walk, I have a therapysession, I'm gonna talk about
it, I'm gonna listen to somemusic and I'm gonna dance it
out.
What tools, what are you doingto cope with the adversity?
That is more powerful to passon to your kids than living a
(40:55):
lie.
Mary (40:56):
Yeah.
And I think we can convinceourselves that they don't really
notice.
And I'll tell you right now.
They do.
They do notice.
They do.
Leah (41:05):
I've got clients who have their who have had their own
kids beg them to get a divorce.
Yeah.
Mary (41:10):
Yeah.
And and maybe that's a way ofletting fear win because we can
convince ourselves, well, itwould be worse for the kids,
instead of just looking at itlike they're seeing this.
And so you're either settingexample for a son that, you
know, this behavior from thefather, or and it doesn't have
to be even abuse.
It can just be that this is notfulfilling for me.
(41:33):
Yeah.
It's not my best life.
And I think especially for adaughter, she's watching you.
Oh, yeah.
And so I think that ability tobe strong and be honest and say,
like when you make a decisionto spend your life with
somebody, you have theinformation you have at the
time.
Leah (41:52):
Right.
Mary (41:52):
And we have this idea that a marriage vow should be
forever.
And if it isn't, you failed.
And that's not how humans work.
Right.
We we evolve.
And so I think normalizing thatfor children, and like I love
how you're saying, like, observeto them, like I'm having a hard
day, or just keep thecommunication open.
(42:12):
What is it like for you for usto be separate from dad now or
to be going back and forthbetween these homes?
I think we are so afraid tohave the conversation sometimes
with kids that then we'reteaching them this is not okay
to talk about because I'm gonnaupset someone.
Leah (42:30):
Right.
Yes.
I mean, you kids learn fromwatching you, not just from
listening to what you're saying,but they watch what you're
doing, right?
And so that that's what youhave to remember.
Um, and even though you thinkyou're doing a great job faking
it, they know.
They they sense it.
And when you are doing thingsthat are aligned with really
(42:55):
your your true authentic self orwho you really want to be, it
makes a huge difference.
I mean, I can tell you thiseven from personal experience,
not just from the hundreds ofwomen that I've worked with.
My daughter gets an extremelydifferent version of me now than
she did when I was in mymarriage.
I was not showing up as theversion of a mom that I wanted
(43:16):
to be.
I couldn't, I didn't have thecapacity to do that.
But because I was brave enoughto walk away, regardless of
everything that comes with that,the the judgment and the fear
and the financial stress and andall of it.
Now, because I did make thatchoice and I did put that work
(43:38):
into myself, she gets the bestversion of me.
I get to show up as the bestversion of myself for my
daughter.
And I'm so grateful for thatevery day that I walked away
from the thing that wasn'tserving me because I know now I
can serve her a hundred timesbetter.
Mary (43:56):
Yeah, I love that.
Well, what a greatconversation.
You do really important work.
So could you share a little bitabout what you offer in your
work?
What is it like to work withyou and where people can find
you?
And then I'll link it all inour show notes.
Leah (44:11):
Yes.
So you can find me.
I'm on all the socials.
My handle is at mindfullyready, or you can go to
mindfullyready.com.
Uh, I have digital resources,one-on-one coaching, uh, free
support groups, and also uhonline courses and a private
membership uh for moms thatsupports them through high
conflict divorce andco-parenting.
(44:31):
So wherever you're at, whateveryou need, um I've I've got
something to help you on yourjourney.
Mary (44:36):
So important.
Because I also think people canfeel really alone, like no one
else is going through this, eventhough you know it, you're like
we mentioned about socialmedia, you don't see it.
You think, oh, they gotdivorced, but look, it all went
fine and everybody's happy.
And that's rarely the case.
Leah (44:52):
Yes.
Uh divorce is very isolating.
Um, you know, even when someonein your life um has gone
through it, the chances of themhaving the same experience are
rare, right?
And so it really is unique toyou.
So it is important to connectwith people um who have the
tools and who can guide you andsupport you so that you can make
it to the other side uh with alot more confidence and clarity
(45:15):
instead of uh learningeverything the hard way.
Mary (45:17):
Yeah.
And one more thing thatoccurred to me that I want to
mention, I think having thatopen, honest conversation with
kids is important because theycan also often think, is it
because I got bad grades or isam I stressing my parents to the
point they're gonna get adivorce?
You know, kids, they look atwhat's happening and they often
(45:38):
think, I wonder if this is thisis because of me, or or I have
to do something with this.
And so I think that's anotherreason it's important to have
those conversations to normalizethat sometimes adults make a
decision and they can still, youknow, care about each other
even and not decide not to betogether, but they love their
(45:58):
children and that's not whatit's about.
Leah (46:01):
Absolutely.
Mary (46:02):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here.
What a great conversation.
Thank you for having me.
You're welcome.
And thanks to everyone forlistening.
Would you love to find out howto connect to your true inner
nature and use that knowledge tolive a more fulfilled and dare
I say fun life?
Click the link at the bottom ofthe show notes,
maryrothwell.net forward slashnature knows, to get onto my
(46:26):
exclusive launch team with earlyaccess to my book at cost, so
you can read and give me anhonest review.
You'll also get fun freebiesand a chance to vote for the
cover design.
Fun fact, my sister isdesigning one of the covers.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
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