December 9, 2025 • 51 mins
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What if the quiet you crave is on the other side of a few simple phone boundaries? We sit down with strategist and community builder Kelsey Green to unpack digital minimalism as a values-first way to use technology without letting it use you. From the rise of anxiety and scattered attention to the illusion of connection on social media, we get honest about how the constant scroll erodes presence, creativity, and relationships—and how to take your focus back.
Kelsey shares what her Screen-Free Sunday challenge reveals about compulsion, why “brain drain” happens when a phone is in sight, and how batching messages, using Do Not Disturb, and curating feeds can lower stress fast. We dig into the fear of missing out and the myth that seeing updates equals staying close. Instead, we talk about prioritizing real conversations with the few people who matter most, and building in-person circles through tiny, daily actions like choosing a human checkout, making eye contact, and joining local groups.
We also explore the gray area where late-in-life distractibility may be environment and anxiety—not lifelong ADHD—and how earned dopamine from nature, deep work, and hands-on hobbies resets the nervous system. Expect practical steps you can try tonight: a 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. phone curfew, leaving the device in another room, a paper “Instead” list to replace doomscrolling, and gentle exceptions so family can reach you in emergencies. By the end, you’ll have a toolkit to reclaim time, attention, and genuine connection—without abandoning the tools you still need.
If this conversation helps, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs a reset, and leave a quick review to help others find us. Your attention is precious; thanks for spending it here.
You can find Kelsey at https://www.kelseylgreen.com/
Books mentioned in the episode:
Digital Minimalism - Cal Newport
Deep Work - Cal Newport
Slow Productivity - Cal Newport
The Anxious Generation - Jonathan Haidt
Last Child in the Woods - Richard Louv
Sign up for the launch team for my book, Nature Knows, and get free insider news and surprises at https://maryrothwell.net/natureknows
Comments about this episode? Suggestions for a future episode? Wanna be a guest? Email me directly at NSVpodcast@gmail.com.
Follow me on Facebook and Instagram, and check out my website!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
I started my career beforethere were cell phones.
My family had a rotary phonewhen I was in high school, and
(00:48):
it was in the kitchen.
And I had 15 minutes to talk tomy friends, often while most of
my family was within five feetof the phone.
My friends and I communicatedby writing notes on paper, our
1980s version of texting.
I'm pretty sure I could stillidentify the handwriting of my
five closest friends from 45years ago.
I love paper books and physicalnewspapers.
(01:11):
When I first made a Facebookaccount, I was trepidatious, not
excited.
I thought friends meant, well,friends, not just a random
person I met at a party thenight before.
I still turn down Facebookrequests from many of those
people.
And if I've never met you,well, that's almost an immediate
no.
I don't want to share my lifewith everyone.
(01:31):
Okay, yeah, I have a podcast.
And I did include some storiesin my upcoming book that even my
closest friends probably don'tknow.
But those aren't stories I wantto tell my friends.
They just inform my life andthe concepts I write about.
But I don't typically share mylowest moments on social media.
I'd rather talk to a realperson.
Okay, so while I wasn't born inthe age of stone tablets, I did
(01:54):
take a typing class in ninthgrade on a manual typewriter.
And I also worked withteenagers before they had all
the stress and anxiety ofcarrying the world in their
pockets, before they looked downat what was in their hand more
than they looked up at the sky,or out at the landscape, or gasp
actually at other people whilethey pass them when walking.
I can tell you, without evenreading the research, even
(02:17):
though I have read it and I knowit backs me up, that cell
phones have made us worsehumans.
The rapid way we consume videosand skim through stories and
mindlessly scroll down a page ofposts is like pouring weed
killer on the branches and stemsof our neural connections.
We need stillness.
We need to be able to sitsomewhere in nature and breathe
and allow our brains to rest.
(02:38):
We need to actually rememberhow to look each other in the
eye.
Is it any wonder that anxietydisorders have become
commonplace conversation?
Anxiety itself is needed andnormal, but anger and anxiety
that feels ever-present andoverwhelms your ability to live
the life that we want seems tobe the new normal.
(02:58):
And I think we need toacknowledge the reasons for
that.
So I am looking forward todissecting some of these topics
with my guest today, whoprobably didn't grow up with a
rotary phone in the kitchen andlikely communicated with her
high school friends via text,not cleverly folded paper notes
that could end up in the handsof the teachers and be read to
the entire class.
My guest today is Kelsey Green.
(03:20):
She is an aspiring digitalminimalist, strategist, speaker,
and community builder on amission to help people reclaim
their focus, creativity, andin-person connections.
She explores how our digitalhabits impact our relationships,
our attention span, and senseof fulfillment, and how setting
simple boundaries can open spacefor what really matters.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Kelsey.
Kelsey (03:43):
Oh, I'm so excited to be here, Mary.
Thank you for having me.
Mary (03:46):
I cannot wait to jump into this because y'all know I am a
nature girl.
So, um, okay, so I'm gonnastart, Kelsey, with I mean, I
don't know your age, but I knowyou are younger than me.
You've always had the internet,right?
So I want to get into that alittle bit, but I would love to
start with you talking a littlebit about maybe some pivotal
moments from your life and howthat helped you end up where you
(04:11):
are now doing the work that youdo.
Kelsey (04:13):
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Well, Mary, um, I love thatintroduction and what a perfect
uh tee up for this conversationtoday.
So thank you for that.
And um thanks for your kindwords.
I'm 43, so I actually doremember a time, certainly
before cell phones, and I loveto chat through that uh today.
(04:33):
But just to give you a quickglimpse of my background and who
I am, I live in the PacificNorthwest, and I um, you know,
took a pretty windy route thatended up in a very similar spot
to a lot of women, which wastotal burnout rock bottom.
So I had done my master's andmy undergraduate degrees in
(04:54):
environmental conservation andmanagement.
And I went into um thenonprofit sector where I
proceeded to, you know, totallyum just kind of fall into the
trap of constant, constantlybeing on email, on the phone,
always responsive, um, you know,overworking.
And because not all, certainly,but many nonprofits, of course,
(05:19):
you know, there's something tobe desired in terms of a livable
wage.
I also had a side business, uh,right.
So I was um I was really umjust working so much and
constantly tied to my phone andto my email, and at the same
time had a bit of a healthcrisis um with you know uterine
(05:39):
fibroids and was in a toxicrelationship and drinking a lot,
and then it was COVID, youknow.
So mine really culminated inthis just fireworks of a uh rock
bottom.
And I'm you know, I'm reallygrateful for it if you've if
you've had one of these in yourlife, um, you may or may not
feel the same way, but itdefinitely offers you some some
(06:00):
clarity, right?
And growing up, I do recall atime before cell phones and they
were sorting sort of cominginto existence when I was in
college.
And to be fair, I always was abit resistant to having a a TV.
Um, I grew up with a single momwho did a pretty good job of of
(06:21):
not always plunking, you know,her kid in front of a TV.
Parenting seems so challenging.
I'm not a parent, so I nojudgment there, but um, she did
a good job of trying to have usbe doing other activities.
And I resisted getting a cellphone.
I didn't really have a TV.
I don't own a TV now.
So I wasn't ever fully immersedas I I would guess that some
(06:44):
people are, right?
But I did find myself in thatplace where I felt like I
couldn't be off of my phone,even to be with my family,
right?
I had to be checking email allthe time and responding, even
literally if it was midnight ona Sunday.
Right.
And so that was kind of thestart of my digital minimalism
(07:05):
path.
Although I'd say that it'sdefinitely a journey, and I'd
love to talk about that today,uh, because you know it's hard
because it's hard.
Mary (07:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really hard.
And I think the thing that soall right, so there's many
things that make it hard, but itis so woven through every
single thing that literallywe're swimming upstream.
I think when we try to put ourphones down and try to make
boundaries with it.
And I know before we're donetoday, we're gonna talk about
(07:37):
some ways to do that because I'mguessing that a lot of people
listening feel sometimeshelpless.
And I know I make pretty goodboundaries for myself.
Like I try to put my phone downtwo hours before bed, which
most of the time I don't succeedat.
I'm gonna be honest.
But for a long time I workedwith women in menopause and
sleep, and that's you know, oneof the big things is you have to
(07:57):
unplug.
So I try to practice what Ipreach, doesn't always work
because it's really hard.
And I think sometimes you're soimmersed in it and you realize,
my God, an hour just went pastand I'm dumber than I was when I
started this, you know.
And I know for a fact that ourwhen our brains consume three to
five seconds at a time andswitch to the next thing, it's
(08:21):
not giving us time to sit and begrounded.
So, one of the questions that Iwant to talk about, well, first
of all, can you tell us whatyou mean by digital minimalism?
Because I think that's a goodplace to start so we know what
we're talking about.
Kelsey (08:36):
Absolutely.
That's a fantastic question,especially because I know that
that term can be a little bitscary for people, right?
And I'll just straight out ofthe gate recommend this book,
Digital Minimalism by CalNewport.
He's uh one of the, I'd say,leading thinkers on this
movement.
And he's also a computerscientist, right?
(08:58):
So the main point that I wantto make sure everyone takes away
from this is that digitalminimalism is not about throwing
away your phone and you know,not using your computer anymore
and being a Luddite, right?
It's it's really not aboutthat.
It's about how can you utilizethe tools that exist, some
(09:19):
incredible tools to help supportyour values versus subvert your
values.
So if you're trying to buildcommunity, if you're really
focusing on your health andwellness, all whatever your core
values are, is your use oftechnology supporting that?
And I work with women to helpthem bring about some of their
(09:41):
creative projects, right, intothe world, like birthing these
beautiful creative projects,finishing a book, things like
that.
And one of the first verypragmatic things that we tackle
is, you know, their their use ofthe digital devices.
Because to your great point,it's really tough to tell how
(10:02):
far we've gone down this littlerabbit hole.
Um, for example, I run thesescreen-free Sunday challenges,
and this is 24 hours fully offscreens.
And this is really tough forpeople.
I did not understand how toughit would be at first.
24 hours is a long time forpeople to be off screens,
(10:26):
partially because people don'trealize how much they're on
them.
So we say, like, okay, so Iwon't stream Netflix that night
and I won't scroll social media,but then people forget, oh, you
know, I've got a map to thisnew place, or and I've got to
pay with my Apple Watch, youknow, I've got to look up the
recipe.
I mean, all these things,right?
(10:47):
And the screen free Sundaychallenge, you know, is a
commitment.
And it's just, but it's oneday, and it really helps to
illuminate how much you'reactually on these devices, you
know, and also critically thatcompulsion to be on them.
Even if your family's in sight,you've talked to everyone,
(11:08):
there's nothing criticalhappening, there's no emergency,
that compulsive feeling thatyou have to check the devices
will really, really be madeclear in a 24-hour period off
screens.
Mary (11:20):
Yeah.
And as you were talking abouthealth, I feel like if we put a
framework on it, like how we tryto eat right, we try to eat
healthy things.
And, you know, we have thesetimes where we're like, um, you
know, I really want the Doritosor I really want the cupcakes.
And if we try to go on a diet,because when I'm not gonna lie,
(11:43):
I looked at your website andwhen I saw that 24 hour, I was
like, there is no freaking way Icould do that.
And again, I'm a nature girl,like I'd rather be outside than
anywhere else.
But that's hard.
And I know from working withcollege students how hard it is
just for them to do it.
So to circle back on what I wassaying, to think about it as
what are you consuming?
(12:03):
Because trying to think about,okay, we need to have food.
And I think when we think aboutthe connection to the internet,
to social media, we need to beon those things at times.
It's our way of gettinginformation now.
So if we look at it in terms ofthat, I think there's a lot of
parallels because we need toalways consistently make the
(12:28):
choices, the good choices.
You know, how much do I want toconsume of this thing?
So I think that's one way toframe it.
But also, it by saying I'mgonna do this for 24 hours, I do
think what you're saying has tobe so true that you're like, I
knew I I was not doing well, butthis is really, really hard.
Kelsey (12:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And I love the parallel toeating well because as you said,
that is a choice you make overand over and over again every
day, right?
And in at least in my ethos ofwellness, once in a while I'll
still have raw cookie dough.
You know what I mean?
Like, like I love it.
(13:10):
Like there's there's you know,there's room for pleasure in
life, of course, right?
Um, but that is the exception,you know, that is a once in a
while.
And so if you use that, thatlogic, you know, treating
yourself and with kind of alimited and infrequent little
(13:30):
treat is is kind of how I lookat is social media, right?
The first step I'd say ifyou're looking at actionable,
you know, steps to take is tocurate the heck out of your
feed.
So if you're gonna be scrollingthrough Instagram all day, oh
my goodness, you know, be veryproactive about curating that so
(13:51):
that you're at least gettingsome better stuff in.
And, you know, I'll take longbreaks from social media like
months at a time, but as abusiness owner, as an online
business owner, you know,creating content, you know, you
use that platform and it's agreat platform, right?
Um, but I will, you know,slowly I've I've really
distanced myself from it.
I don't follow any of myfriends.
(14:12):
I don't want to have the FOMO,but I also don't want to have
the illusion that I ammaintaining that relationship
via social media because that'sa very shallow way to connect.
Better than nothing in somecases, absolutely, yes.
But I want to make sure that Ithink about the fact that I
haven't talked to my friend,even on Zoom, if they live in a
(14:34):
different country or whatever,in six months, and not and not
have my brain tricked intothinking, oh, we've been
connected, we know all abouteach other's lives right now
because we've seen it seen it onsocial media.
That is not that's notconnection in the way that I
want to be connecting with myfriends.
Yeah.
Mary (14:51):
Well, the one thing I was going to say is on Facebook, and
I think my generation I tothink is a little more Facebooky
than Instagram.
You can just see a feed withjust your friends.
And if you don't want all theads, you don't want to go down
the uh the rabbit holes of thereels that showing show up.
So that is one thing, but Ilove this idea of not following
(15:13):
your friends on social media.
So have you missed out onthings?
Have there been things whereokay, so yeah, talk talk about
that a little because I thinkthat fear of missing out is it's
really a thing.
Kelsey (15:26):
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm not saying that I won'tever pop into someone's profile
and kind of check out what'sgoing on, but uh in general, uh,
and and uh Cal Newport makes agreat argument for this.
So if you want to look intothis more deeply, check out that
book again, Digital Minimalism.
But he argues that uh that youyour relationships will be
(15:46):
better in the long run when youare prioritizing trying to
connect in person and trying toat least connect via phone or or
Zoom or whatever, if you can,right?
Um so the thing is though,about this approach is that the
tech companies have reallyleveraged this fear of missing
(16:08):
out onto us.
That is now the the case forneeding to be on social media
all the time, is this fear ofmissing out.
And you know, Mary, you'reyou're right.
Once in a while you're gonnamiss something.
Like that's just that's justthe nature of it.
The issue is that, you know, orthe belief that digital
minimalists have is the benefitsthat you are going to gain from
(16:33):
at least putting someboundaries in place will far
outweigh the usually very minorthings that you're going to miss
out on, you know, likesomeone's lunch, obviously is a
very silly example.
But even someone's vacation orif they have an important life
event, you know, to be honest,the question I ask myself is if
(16:54):
I'm only getting updates andseeking updates through social
media for these people, are theytruly my my closest friends?
You know, and I don't think weneed a thousand friends.
Um, there's that number, gosh,it has a name where it's about
the size of a historic villagethat you can really keep in your
(17:15):
mind.
I think it's 150 people, right?
That you can really kind of betracking through time.
And I don't need to know thestatus updates of a thousand
people, right?
I just want to make sure I'm Iam connecting with like the 10
to 30 most important people inmy life, right?
And maintaining thoserelationships in a real way.
Mary (17:34):
Well, and I know some of the things that I've started
with, I don't look at my phonein bed.
Like I try to in the morning, Idon't pick it up till I'm out
of bed.
I mean, I think it starts withthe little things because one of
the things that I've noticedfor myself is when I really try
to put the phone aside, and I'malso a reader, I go outside a
(17:56):
lot, but sometimes I'm like,wait, what what do I do now?
Because it has filled so muchof our space in our life.
So if somebody is thinking, howdo I do this?
What are some practical tipsthat you can give to people?
Kelsey (18:12):
Yeah, well, you make an excellent point.
And that was the first piece offeedback I got from those
24-hour challenges is thatpeople had no clue how to spend
the time.
The flip side of that, theupside of that is that people
that don't have enough time, youknow, they're all, you know,
just kind of everything's crazyand there's there's not enough
time to do this or that or writeyour book, whatever.
(18:33):
It's that they found a lot moretime when they started putting
these boundaries in place.
But at first, yes, it is alittle tricky when you have that
void, you know, it's beenreferred to for sure.
And that's why the the screenfree Sunday challenge is a is a
is a you know, is a challengeand a pretty drastic approach.
(18:53):
But yes, you can start puttingin place these little baby
steps, similar to how if youwere going to do a drastic
dietary change, you know.
Um, you can go cold turkey.
And I personally that's um anapproach that works for me
sometimes, but baby steps areare great.
And I can run through a coupleof mine if if you like.
Mary (19:14):
Yeah, please do.
Kelsey (19:16):
Yeah, so I have a 7 p.m.
to 7 a.m.
Um no phone boundary, andyou're you know, just like you
said, it doesn't always work allthe time if I get home later
than 7 p.m., you know, and Ihave a couple of things I need
to do, whatever.
But for the most part, off thephone, and the phone's actually
(19:36):
in the closet because if you'veexperienced this, when your
phone is within sight, you havethat urge to check it, right?
And there's a study called TheBrain Drain, an academic paper
that talks about how when yourphone is in your sight, your
attention is more fractured.
So you're actually just a bitmore dumb if you're trying to
(19:57):
work with your phone next toyou, or you know, really
important if you're trying toconnect with someone else and
your phone is next to you, evenface down.
You know, you just are payingless attention to that person.
So anyway, so 7 p.m.
to 7 a.m., the phone is awayand off screens at 7 p.m.
So no Netflix or whatever.
(20:18):
And no, this November, whenwe're um filming this, I am
doing a no scrolling challengefor myself.
So a month of no streaming andno scrolling.
And, you know, it's earlyNovember, so uh it's been
interesting, even just in thosefew days.
And then I don't have anynotifications, sound or visual
(20:39):
notifications on my phone.
So um that when you talk aboutmissing out, that will happen
sometimes with things that comein that would be nice to have
taken a call for, like thedoctor's office or something,
you know, appointments that needto be made or whatever.
So it's slightly annoyingsometimes that I just have to
(21:00):
call them back.
But I find that not havingthose sound notifications on
means that I'm focusing onwhatever it is that is in front
of me.
Even if that's just doing mydishes or whatever, it's that I
am I am working on being morepresent and not having my
attention being fracturedbecause of those sounds.
Mary (21:24):
Well, and I think what people need to realize is it
does take time for your brain tokind of detox because there is
going to be a lot more quiet anda lot more downtime and a lot
more stillness.
And we don't always know whatto do with that.
Kelsey (21:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, I hesitate to reallydraw a parallel between
addiction, you know, tosomething like a drug um to the
phone, but a lot of themechanisms in the brain are the
same.
You're foraging for thatdopamine that you didn't earn.
(22:05):
And the more we call it fakedopamine that you're collecting
up, the tougher it's going to beto not be collecting up that
dopamine.
I mean, you are a therapist,you know.
I think you, you know, you Iknow a lot of your listeners
have obviously understand thisconcept too.
It's just that we don't,because of where we're at
currently, with these supersmart, you know, tech nerd gods
(22:28):
um having made this so, so, socompelling, we don't, we don't
quite realize, I think, what'shappening.
Mary (22:34):
Yeah.
Well, it was interesting to seeit start as when I worked in a
high school, and I would see thefirst few students who would
start to bring cell phones.
And then the first time that Ihad a student in my office talk
about her boyfriend at anotherschool just broke up to her with
her.
And I'm like, Well, how do youknow?
Well, he texted me and I'mlike, oh, and that was sort of
(22:59):
for me how the roller coasterclicks to the top and then it
just goes down the other sideand gains momentum.
And what interestingly, I seemto be perceiving now is that
young people are starting torecognize that it feels bad.
And they are trying to findways to disconnect.
(23:21):
And I know even when I workedwith, I would say five years
ago, they would do the thingwhere when they went out to
dinner together, they all puttheir phones in the middle, and
whoever picked theirs up firsthad to pay the bill.
They were trying to find waysto make it acceptable to put the
phone down because I thinkinstinctively we know this isn't
(23:42):
good for me.
But I do think that there'sstarting to be this realization
among people that have grown upwith these phones attached to
their hand that it's not helpingtheir mental health.
Kelsey (23:54):
Yeah, I I have heard that too.
And I was surprised by thisbecause you know, it takes a lot
of awareness to recognize thatsomething that has been there
since you can remember is is badfor you and make a conscious
choice to put that away.
I'll make a recommendation forthe book The Anxious Generation
(24:15):
right now.
If you're a parent, um it's ithonestly scared the shit out of
me.
Like I, you know, and Iappreciate it because it's data
driven and he doesn't reallypull any punches about what's
happening to our brains and ourand our communities because of
this.
So if you're a parent, I'd say100%, you know, read read that.
Um, but I I agree.
(24:36):
I think it's still a smallpercentage, but there is a
growing understanding that thisis something that we need to
look at, right?
And I think individually thatcan come from that feeling that
I've certainly had, I presumemany of your listeners have had
when you do lose an hour toscrolling, you know.
(25:01):
The first day of my no scrolly,you know, streaming challenge,
November 1st, I went to postsomething, you know, content,
and I literally ended up readingabout these restaurants in New
York City, you know, they'relike, oh, Thai food, so tired
now.
And I'm like off in this wacky,you know, I love food, so okay,
(25:25):
my, you know, I've got a lot ofrestaurant stuff on my feed.
But, you know, before I evenunderstood what was happening, I
was deep in thinking about,reading about, you know,
articles about these restaurantsin New York City.
Um, and I looked up like, oh mygosh, holy crap.
This is the kind of stuff I'mtalking about where you
literally compulsively pick upyour phone, scroll, and you've
(25:49):
lost that time.
And anyway, the point is, Ithink we are starting to
recognize how it feels to havethat sort of, I would I describe
it as an emptiness and ahollowness after you get done
doing that, which if youcontrast with how it feels to
have a really fulfillingin-person interaction.
And even like here on digital,you know, on Zoom, because we,
(26:11):
you know, we're across thecountry from each other, we
can't meet up in person, youknow, it feels really different.
Right.
And I think that's something topay attention to.
Mary (26:20):
Yeah.
And I think it's good forpeople to know that even though
this is what you do, thealgorithms are so effective.
It knows exactly what to put infront of you to get that hook.
And so I want to take um takethe side road now to talk about
connection because I think partof where FOMO comes from is we
(26:41):
want to know what's happeningwith people and we want to be
part of things.
So now that has moved so farinto the digital realm, which of
course was spurred on even moreby COVID when we had to be
separate.
So I think a legitimate concernfor people is how am I going to
(27:02):
find ways to reconnect topeople in real life when we have
for so long now been doing thatvirtually?
So, what do you say about that?
How do you help people maybethink about ways they can build
a true in-person connection?
Kelsey (27:20):
Yeah, thanks, Mary.
This is something that I am sopassionate about.
So I love that we're talkingabout this right now.
And it's interesting because acouple years ago, when I was
building my course, How to BuildYour Circle, I knew I wanted to
focus on in-person community,but because you know, digital
age is here and we do so much ofthis online, I was like a
(27:41):
little shy, you know, abouttalking about digital boundaries
and in-person and in now.
I, you know, the course hasevolved.
Now I like, no, to build thein-person community, you have
got to put some boundaries onyour digital use.
That's just the truth, right?
Unless you're already somewherealong the journey of digital
(28:02):
minimalism and you've got greatboundaries.
That's great.
You know, I suspect if you'reif you have that, you probably
aren't listening.
This isn't the podcast episodethat you know you're needing to
listen to.
But so bravo to you.
But for the rest of us, whichis most of us, you know, this,
these are my beliefs, but thedata also supports this, right?
So there was the termloneliness epidemic coined some
(28:24):
time ago.
And there is there are so manystudies that show that with the
rise of the smartphone came adecrease in mental health and a
decrease in the amount of timethat we're spending together.
To your point, COVID obviouslydidn't help that, right?
So that's that's unfortunate.
But we've got the digitalcommunities now, we've got the
(28:46):
digital relationships, we've gotthe connection online, and
that's that can be fine andgreat.
But meanwhile, our in-personcommunities are crumbling,
right?
So when we talk about how do wego about rebuilding some of
these, I think it's important tonote that because we have kind
of gone so far down this path,probably is going to take a bit
(29:10):
of work, a bit of discomfort.
And I just saw a great quotethat said, if you want a
village, you need to act like avillager.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Oh, yeah.
Kelsey (29:20):
So, you know, if you want community, you need to act
communal.
And so some of the things thatI recommend that people do,
especially if you are above theage of, you know, 35, 40, when
it becomes like a little funnierto make friends, you know, and
to build community, is you know,really putting yourself in the
actual spaces where people arehaving your phone away.
(29:43):
I'm talking about in line atthe grocery store when you could
be paying a quick bill orresponding to a text, you know,
putting your phone away and workon making those little
conversations that we used tohave back in the day.
I don't Know, I feel like weused to chit-chat with strangers
all the time, and now thateveryone's just looking down at
(30:05):
their phones, does really pause.
And I'll just note one morelittle actionable step here that
relates to this is batchingyour phone time.
So, you know, I still want tobe responsive to people that are
texting me, clients, friends,family.
But I set aside, not always, ofcourse, but I try to set aside
a time.
Okay, I'm gonna take a fullhour right now to do all my
(30:28):
texts, to answer my emails, toscroll, post content, whatever
it is, right?
And even some fun stuff, evensome fluffy stuff, eating the
cookie dough equivalent ofsocial media, whatever, watching
the dog memes and videos, youknow.
But when you're out in public,really trying to be off your
phone and trying to re-engagewith the people around you.
(30:49):
And especially if they'redifferent age, you know, they
look like someone who's reallydifferent from you.
I think we could really use alittle bit more, you know, sort
of connection with people thatare not exactly like us, which
of course the algorithm presentsto us, right?
We're getting stuck in theseecho chambers.
Those are some of those, thosefirst things you can do.
Mary (31:12):
And I think that the anxiety has increased about
that.
I mean, when I worked at acollege during COVID and we had
to go fully online, one of thethings that I predicted is that
when we're back in a classroom,because there was so much fear
around COVID, there's going tobe a lot more social anxiety.
And I do think that's the case.
And so again, going back to theidea of these small changes,
(31:37):
that when you are somewhere out,put your phone away and
actually look around.
Like when I am in the grocerystore line, I always make eye
contact with the person that'sringing me up, or unless you're
going through the auto checkout,which is now everywhere.
But I try to sometimesintentionally go through a line
where there is a cashier andmake eye contact and just say,
(31:59):
How's your day today?
or make small talk becausewe've really forgotten the art
of that.
And when I would walk throughcampus, I would always want to
try to make eye contact withstudents.
And 80% of the time they'relooking down because they're
catching up, you know, betweenclasses and they're catching up
with things.
But I think the do not disturbsetting is so valuable because
(32:23):
that immediately takes away whatyou're talking about, the
alerts.
It makes it harder to worrythat, oh, if somebody texts me
and I don't get back to them,they're gonna be mad or they're
gonna think I'm ignoring them.
Well, if they see that you havethat on, that immediately
releases you and makes it easierto say, okay, from four o'clock
(32:44):
to five o'clock, I'm gonnaactually go in and look at the
text that I got and respond tothem.
So that idea of batchingthings, I think is a great idea
because you're still doing it.
You're just having a little bitmore control over when and how
you do it.
Kelsey (33:01):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I love a do not disturbfunction.
I mean, I don't have sound onanyway, but to your excellent
point, that function, and Idon't know if it's on Android, I
have an iPhone, but um, maybethere's something similar,
right?
But lets people know that youprobably aren't gonna be
responding.
And for me personally, I thinkno one expects that I'm gonna be
(33:22):
responding immediately anymore,you know?
So everyone sort of knows thatit might take me a couple of
days, it's just not my priority.
But yeah, if it's if it's a newthing that you're implementing,
yes, that's a that's a greatfunction for sure.
And I think even tellingpeople, ideally when you connect
with them in person, you know,or on the phone, that you're
(33:44):
trying out this new thing.
Um, and it doesn't mean thatyou don't care or that you're,
you know, you're not there forthem or you don't want to know
what's going on, but that you'rethat you're trying to just find
a little bit more distance andpresence in the day-to-day.
Yeah.
Mary (34:00):
Yeah.
And I think we worry a lotabout what other people will
think.
And that in many ways, and inmany things I've talked about on
different episodes, gets in theway of choosing to do what's
best for us because you know,we're we're the caretakers, we
are the connectors.
And sometimes we sense what weneed.
We need to have some distancefrom the frenetic energy of
(34:22):
scrolling or trying to keep up.
And by giving ourselvespermission to do what we need to
do, it can make that a littlebit easier.
Kelsey (34:34):
That's a great point.
Yeah.
Mary (34:35):
Yeah.
And I think, Kelsey, there areprobably people listening
thinking, well, it's not out ofcontrol for me.
I'm it can't be that bad forme.
What would you say to someonewho is on their phone every day
for, you know, and your phonewill tell you how many hours you
average in a day, but peoplethink, oh, it's not affecting my
brain.
I'm fine.
Kelsey (34:55):
Yeah.
Well, tracking the numbers isgreat to look at that because I
think I'm constantly surprised,you know, at how high those are.
But I would suggest doing amaybe a mini challenge for
yourself if you're not sure ifyou've got a problem to yeah, to
(35:15):
see how it could go to put yourphone away and on silent, you
know, for a couple hours.
And I do a little tick markwhen I have um that urge to
check it.
Sometimes I don't even knowwhat I'm doing.
Like when I first started doingthis work, I was pacing around
my house like as if I waslooking for something, and I had
(35:36):
no clue.
I would stop myself, like, whatam I doing right now?
I don't even know what I and Iwas kind of looking for my phone
unconsciously.
So when you catch yourselfreaching for your phone, feeling
like you want to, pacing aroundyour house, you know, to make a
little check mark and just dothat experiment with your own
brain, with yourself.
(35:56):
And also our inability to bebored, yeah, I think is a really
interesting metric.
Yeah.
So yeah.
So, you know, I'm, I knowyou're a nature person, I'm a
nature person.
So I think it's quite easy tobe off your phone when you're
going for an all-day hike, youknow, and you're literally out
of service.
So you don't really have achoice.
(36:17):
But when you're in your normalspace, like your house, you
know, doing your normal routine,I think that's when it can
really, really show up.
And I just don't want toforget, you know, we were
talking a lot about the issueand how hard it can be and the
detriment.
But I I would like to make surethat I talk about the benefit.
Mary (36:41):
Yes, yes, yes, right?
Kelsey (36:43):
Yeah.
So I have a lot of adult womenfriends that were diagnosed with
ADHD later, you know, after intheir 40s.
And I started feeling like Imaybe had that too, right?
Like I was suffering from ADHD,I couldn't focus, I couldn't
get my work done.
Even if it was a pretty simpletask, it was just kind of
(37:06):
torturous and boring, you know?
And I'm a pretty hyper person,so you know, I I have a lot of
energy and and I do feel like Ilove multitasking and getting
stuff done, but I just couldn'tdo the deep work.
You know, I was having issueswriting, I love writing, you
(37:28):
know, but it was just it was sohard.
And once I started puttingthese boundaries in place, it
started to become easier, notright away, but after some time,
it started to become easier forme to do the deep work.
And that's another book thatCal Newport wrote, Deep Work.
(37:48):
And and I'm right now I'mreading slow productivity.
So there's just, you know,there's all these um great
resources out there to help you.
But I realized that I was muchmore able to do that kind of
work when I had those digitalboundaries in place.
Right.
And I think that is a criticalpoint because, you know, our
(38:11):
attention is so fractured.
We're I I think a lot of us arefeeling just very overwhelmed.
Our lives are very chaotic.
And as you mentioned, when youdon't have that stillness, when
you don't have any space toprocess something that's
happened in your life, you'rereaching for something that
you're gonna be able to foragethis fake dopamine from, and
you're not able to like do thiswork, you know.
(38:34):
I feel like these are thereasons that that it's important
and the benefits are amazing.
Mary (38:41):
Yes.
Thank you so much for gettingus onto that because it is so
true that again, if we talkabout how we change our eating
and we feel healthier, it's thesame thing.
You can't just decide, oh, I'mgonna change what I eat, and by
next week I'm gonna lose 10pounds and I'm gonna feel great.
Anything that truly is a changedoes take time.
(39:04):
But I think of the book LastChild in the Woods, and I think
it's Richard Love, L-O-U-V.
Um, and I'm gonna link allthese books in the show notes
because they're so important.
But he talks about um mostlykids, but being in nature, just
seeing nature calms you down.
So when you talk about ADHD, myears perk up because having
(39:27):
worked in public schools, I knowthat true ADHD starts when
you're a child.
So when I worked with a collegepopulation and I started to see
so many of these 18-year-oldsbeing newly diagnosed, I'm like,
I don't know that this is uhADHD.
Um, and so let me tell you,when I say ADHD, it is a deficit
(39:49):
of attention.
Attention deficit, HD ishyperactivity disorder, which
the hyperactivity is more rare.
But if we talk about attentiondeficit, it is just a deficit of
being able to attend tosomething long term.
And when you have that as achild, a lot of that is your
wiring.
Now, a lot of times, though,also you can find a chaotic home
(40:12):
situation, but not always.
But when that starts to happenlater in life, that is an
environmental issue.
And the other thing that I wantpeople to realize is a lot of
times what the symptoms ofattention deficit disorder are
are mimicked by anxiety.
So often what people actuallyhave is anxiety, that
(40:36):
restlessness, that something'snot right.
I don't feel comfortable, Iwant to come out of my skin, I
can't concentrate on what I'mdoing.
That can be generalized anxietydisorder.
And where does that come from?
The fact that your brain hasnot learned how to have
stillness, how to be bored, howto sit in a place and actually
(40:57):
be mindful and not be thinkingabout what am I missing?
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah.
Mary (41:02):
And you're right, those benefits are tremendous.
We just have to have thepatience to get there.
And you're telling us it's notlinear because even you struggle
with it.
And so don't give up if you'retrying, you're gonna have some
days, especially if it's maybe arough day for you, where you
might use that crutch more.
I'm just gonna lose myself inbinging or you know, binge
(41:27):
watching something or scrollingthrough my phone.
You can get back on track, butit's so important to know the
benefits.
Kelsey (41:35):
Absolutely, yes.
Yeah, thank you for pointingthat out.
And it's great to hear that youstepped us through that as a
mental health professional andwhat you saw as well.
So, yes, to your point, yeah,some days gonna be a wash.
You know, some days you have aterrible day and you just kind
of fall into that that bingeytrap.
(41:56):
But you know, the the greatnews is the more you practice
this work, I'd say the easier itis to more quickly get back on
track like the next day becauseyou go to bed feeling like, hmm,
like, you know, like I kind ofI don't not I'm not super
excited about the way I feelright now.
(42:16):
And it's easier to get back ontrack the next day and then make
maybe make those little bingeysessions a little shorter,
right?
Yeah.
So absolutely, and I don't wantto be anyone to be discouraged
by this because as we've noted acouple of times now, it is hard
and they have made it socompelling for our brains,
(42:38):
right?
So much money poured into this.
So you're you know, you'reyou're fighting a little bit of
an uphill battle.
It does get easier, it is worthit, you know.
And there are ways to make surethat just want to point out a
little pragmatic tip that, youknow, for example, my mom was
having some health issues.
I do want her to be able tocall me, you know, if she's in
the hospital.
(42:58):
So I have a call throughmechanism for any 24 hours a day
for her or my stepdad to reachme at any point.
So if you have kids, you know,I'm not recommending that you go
off your phone and and don'tanswer.
So you can have those mechanismbreakthroughs too, but uh, you
know, most of the time thingsare probably not an emergency.
(43:19):
And you and I remember a timewhen we were fine leaving the
house, uh-huh, you know, not notknowing where we're going
exactly, and also not havinganyone able to reach us.
And that was fine.
So I think a really interestingexercise is leaving your house
without your phone.
Woof, that one is still toughfor me, you know.
(43:39):
Even if I'm just going to yogaand to run errands in my in my
small little town, it is hard toleave without your phone.
Yeah.
Mary (43:50):
Yeah.
And I've forgotten itsometimes, but I'm usually like
if my husband and I are goingout for to dinner, we'll pull
out of the driveway and I'mlike, oh, wait, I forgot my
phone.
And sometimes I'm like, youknow what?
I'm just gonna leave it.
But that's cheating because hehas his phone.
So, you know, I think it's itis one of those things that's
hard to do.
And I think the other thingthat maybe people can start to
(44:10):
think about is what can I doinstead?
Because that brings us back tothat feeling of loose ends.
Like, what am I missing?
What am I gonna do with myhands?
What should I?
We used to know, like I reallytry to read a physical book.
I try not to get on a Kindle,even though sometimes that's
where the book is that I want toread.
But it helps me to put downsomething electronic because I
(44:32):
have reading time in the morningif I'm reading a physical book.
But it's sort of like if you'rebinging anything, whether it's
TV or food or whatever, when youget the urge, I think it's
really helpful to have a listthat, and I almost said a list
on your phone.
I'm like, Mary, like that's notit, but have a list of what can
(44:52):
I do instead?
Take a walk, um, you know, goto the library and find a book,
uh, go out for a coffee, youknow, different things like
that.
There are a lot of thingsthough that are connected to a
phone, but I think trying tobrainstorm those things.
So when you do feel that senseof, you know, now I have anxiety
(45:14):
without my phone, that willcalm down.
Yeah.
Just breathe and go do someyoga or some things, you know,
what can we substitute?
I think can be helpful.
Kelsey (45:23):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think that's great.
And oftentimes what I've seenin my survey results, the
feedback is that people tacklethese projects, especially
around their physicalenvironment that they have put
off for a really long time.
Yeah.
So I think that's always agreat one.
Um, you know, always optimizingand um cleaning your space and
(45:45):
wanting, you know, your yoursanctuary, right?
Working on that.
And I yeah, also kind of wantto point out for the long term,
one thing that we want to thinkabout is we used to have hobbies
that were not connected to the,you know, to digital devices,
right?
Back in the day.
(46:06):
And so from what I'm seeing inthe research, the hobbies that
we have where we are producingsomething physically with our
hands, whether that's quilting,sewing, woodworking, you know,
even writing, creative projects.
Yeah, baking, absolutely,right?
These are they they hit us in adifferent way than even if
(46:29):
we're producing somethingdigitally, I think you know,
that that's wonderful and great.
You know, a lot of times we doour writing on the computer
probably, and and that'swonderful.
But I think um for our mentalhealth, for our wellness, for
our sense of accomplishment inour day, what we think our brain
needs is to totally check outand blank out and get this
(46:51):
respite, you know, of scrollingor binging.
But as you know, your brain isstill doing stuff, it's still
having to process all of thatinformation.
It's not a rest, right?
And if you if you want to bewinding down and doing something
that's going to fill your cup,it's these hobbies, these
(47:12):
high-value hobbies that you canlook for to reintroduce back
into your life that may havegone away that you can work on a
little bit, say in the eveningsor in these in these moments
of, you know, kind of feelinglike you want to be scrolling.
And that will bring you morefulfillment and a more of a
(47:33):
feeling of purpose, you know,than the scroll, you know, the
doom scroll will ever, I think.
Mary (47:39):
So great suggestions.
And I know I shared with youbefore we started recording that
my husband and I are looking tomove into a city now because I
think that we live in a prettyrural area.
And I think that ability toconnect, because now that I'm
not working in a collegepopulation where there's a lot
happening and there's a lot ofconnections, in-person
connections, and you work foryourself, you know, that can be
(48:02):
a little bit lonely.
You know, so being able to makeconnections somewhere and
finding a group, a book club ora hiking group or something
where you're actually physicallywith people, I think is really
important.
So Kelsey, you've given us,you've given us such good
suggestions today.
So review a little bit what youoffer and where people can find
(48:24):
you.
And then I will also link thatin the show notes.
Kelsey (48:27):
Absolutely.
Thanks, Mary.
Yeah.
So my website is Kelsey LGreen, L like Lemur, and um the
Instagram is same handle, KelseyL Green, LinkedIn.
You can find me there too.
And really, I do two mainthings.
I uh offer a course called Howto Build Your Circle.
The next cohort will be inFebruary, and that will have um
(48:49):
a live digital component, youknow, because we're spread out
all over.
Um, but that is really walkingyou through from the very
beginning, like if you'refeeling isolated, lonely, sad,
no in-person connections, tobuilding a thriving social
circle.
And the other thing that Ioffer is called Summit in Six.
That is a mastermind for womenthat are working to bring their,
(49:14):
you know, birth their personalcreative projects into
existence.
And they're interested at leasta little bit in setting the
digital boundaries and doingthis work with a cohort.
So that is a very intense, highaccountability mastermind, and
that will start in um inJanuary.
So that that's really the twomain things that I do.
(49:35):
And then I work selectivelyone-on-one with people that are
interested in in building thisum, you know, thriving social
circle for themselves or wantsome coaching around um around
things like that.
Mary (49:47):
Yeah.
Well, I think you're doingreally important work, and I
think you are ahead of the curvebecause I don't find a lot of
people doing what you're doing,but the books that you named are
really, really in, you know,they're interesting.
They open your mind, theyreally start to delve into the
topic.
And I think it is somethingwhere we're gonna start to
(50:07):
recognize more and more that weneed to regulate it.
So I think you're doingimportant work, and I really
love that you were here today.
So thank you for theconversation.
Kelsey (50:16):
Mary, such a delight to be here and speak with you and
your listeners.
So thank you so much for theopportunity.
Mary (50:23):
Sure.
And I want to thank everyonefor listening.
My upcoming book, Nature Knows,goes right to the nature-y
heart of this topic, helping youto connect to your inner nature
while using the wisdom ofplants to help you find
belonging, set boundaries, andmaintain wellness.
So if you want to be on my booklaunch team, I would love that.
You'll get all the fun updatesand insider perks.
(50:43):
There's a link in the shownotes.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
I started my career beforethere were cell phones.
My family had a rotary phonewhen I was in high school, and
(00:48):
it was in the kitchen.
And I had 15 minutes to talk tomy friends, often while most of
my family was within five feetof the phone.
My friends and I communicatedby writing notes on paper, our
1980s version of texting.
I'm pretty sure I could stillidentify the handwriting of my
five closest friends from 45years ago.
I love paper books and physicalnewspapers.
(01:11):
When I first made a Facebookaccount, I was trepidatious, not
excited.
I thought friends meant, well,friends, not just a random
person I met at a party thenight before.
I still turn down Facebookrequests from many of those
people.
And if I've never met you,well, that's almost an immediate
no.
I don't want to share my lifewith everyone.
(01:31):
Okay, yeah, I have a podcast.
And I did include some storiesin my upcoming book that even my
closest friends probably don'tknow.
But those aren't stories I wantto tell my friends.
They just inform my life andthe concepts I write about.
But I don't typically share mylowest moments on social media.
I'd rather talk to a realperson.
Okay, so while I wasn't born inthe age of stone tablets, I did
(01:54):
take a typing class in ninthgrade on a manual typewriter.
And I also worked withteenagers before they had all
the stress and anxiety ofcarrying the world in their
pockets, before they looked downat what was in their hand more
than they looked up at the sky,or out at the landscape, or gasp
actually at other people whilethey pass them when walking.
I can tell you, without evenreading the research, even
(02:17):
though I have read it and I knowit backs me up, that cell
phones have made us worsehumans.
The rapid way we consume videosand skim through stories and
mindlessly scroll down a page ofposts is like pouring weed
killer on the branches and stemsof our neural connections.
We need stillness.
We need to be able to sitsomewhere in nature and breathe
and allow our brains to rest.
(02:38):
We need to actually rememberhow to look each other in the
eye.
Is it any wonder that anxietydisorders have become
commonplace conversation?
Anxiety itself is needed andnormal, but anger and anxiety
that feels ever-present andoverwhelms your ability to live
the life that we want seems tobe the new normal.
(02:58):
And I think we need toacknowledge the reasons for
that.
So I am looking forward todissecting some of these topics
with my guest today, whoprobably didn't grow up with a
rotary phone in the kitchen andlikely communicated with her
high school friends via text,not cleverly folded paper notes
that could end up in the handsof the teachers and be read to
the entire class.
My guest today is Kelsey Green.
(03:20):
She is an aspiring digitalminimalist, strategist, speaker,
and community builder on amission to help people reclaim
their focus, creativity, andin-person connections.
She explores how our digitalhabits impact our relationships,
our attention span, and senseof fulfillment, and how setting
simple boundaries can open spacefor what really matters.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Kelsey.
Kelsey (03:43):
Oh, I'm so excited to be here, Mary.
Thank you for having me.
Mary (03:46):
I cannot wait to jump into this because y'all know I am a
nature girl.
So, um, okay, so I'm gonnastart, Kelsey, with I mean, I
don't know your age, but I knowyou are younger than me.
You've always had the internet,right?
So I want to get into that alittle bit, but I would love to
start with you talking a littlebit about maybe some pivotal
moments from your life and howthat helped you end up where you
(04:11):
are now doing the work that youdo.
Kelsey (04:13):
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Well, Mary, um, I love thatintroduction and what a perfect
uh tee up for this conversationtoday.
So thank you for that.
And um thanks for your kindwords.
I'm 43, so I actually doremember a time, certainly
before cell phones, and I loveto chat through that uh today.
(04:33):
But just to give you a quickglimpse of my background and who
I am, I live in the PacificNorthwest, and I um, you know,
took a pretty windy route thatended up in a very similar spot
to a lot of women, which wastotal burnout rock bottom.
So I had done my master's andmy undergraduate degrees in
(04:54):
environmental conservation andmanagement.
And I went into um thenonprofit sector where I
proceeded to, you know, totallyum just kind of fall into the
trap of constant, constantlybeing on email, on the phone,
always responsive, um, you know,overworking.
And because not all, certainly,but many nonprofits, of course,
(05:19):
you know, there's something tobe desired in terms of a livable
wage.
I also had a side business, uh,right.
So I was um I was really umjust working so much and
constantly tied to my phone andto my email, and at the same
time had a bit of a healthcrisis um with you know uterine
(05:39):
fibroids and was in a toxicrelationship and drinking a lot,
and then it was COVID, youknow.
So mine really culminated inthis just fireworks of a uh rock
bottom.
And I'm you know, I'm reallygrateful for it if you've if
you've had one of these in yourlife, um, you may or may not
feel the same way, but itdefinitely offers you some some
(06:00):
clarity, right?
And growing up, I do recall atime before cell phones and they
were sorting sort of cominginto existence when I was in
college.
And to be fair, I always was abit resistant to having a a TV.
Um, I grew up with a single momwho did a pretty good job of of
(06:21):
not always plunking, you know,her kid in front of a TV.
Parenting seems so challenging.
I'm not a parent, so I nojudgment there, but um, she did
a good job of trying to have usbe doing other activities.
And I resisted getting a cellphone.
I didn't really have a TV.
I don't own a TV now.
So I wasn't ever fully immersedas I I would guess that some
(06:44):
people are, right?
But I did find myself in thatplace where I felt like I
couldn't be off of my phone,even to be with my family,
right?
I had to be checking email allthe time and responding, even
literally if it was midnight ona Sunday.
Right.
And so that was kind of thestart of my digital minimalism
(07:05):
path.
Although I'd say that it'sdefinitely a journey, and I'd
love to talk about that today,uh, because you know it's hard
because it's hard.
Mary (07:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really hard.
And I think the thing that soall right, so there's many
things that make it hard, but itis so woven through every
single thing that literallywe're swimming upstream.
I think when we try to put ourphones down and try to make
boundaries with it.
And I know before we're donetoday, we're gonna talk about
(07:37):
some ways to do that because I'mguessing that a lot of people
listening feel sometimeshelpless.
And I know I make pretty goodboundaries for myself.
Like I try to put my phone downtwo hours before bed, which
most of the time I don't succeedat.
I'm gonna be honest.
But for a long time I workedwith women in menopause and
sleep, and that's you know, oneof the big things is you have to
(07:57):
unplug.
So I try to practice what Ipreach, doesn't always work
because it's really hard.
And I think sometimes you're soimmersed in it and you realize,
my God, an hour just went pastand I'm dumber than I was when I
started this, you know.
And I know for a fact that ourwhen our brains consume three to
five seconds at a time andswitch to the next thing, it's
(08:21):
not giving us time to sit and begrounded.
So, one of the questions that Iwant to talk about, well, first
of all, can you tell us whatyou mean by digital minimalism?
Because I think that's a goodplace to start so we know what
we're talking about.
Kelsey (08:36):
Absolutely.
That's a fantastic question,especially because I know that
that term can be a little bitscary for people, right?
And I'll just straight out ofthe gate recommend this book,
Digital Minimalism by CalNewport.
He's uh one of the, I'd say,leading thinkers on this
movement.
And he's also a computerscientist, right?
(08:58):
So the main point that I wantto make sure everyone takes away
from this is that digitalminimalism is not about throwing
away your phone and you know,not using your computer anymore
and being a Luddite, right?
It's it's really not aboutthat.
It's about how can you utilizethe tools that exist, some
(09:19):
incredible tools to help supportyour values versus subvert your
values.
So if you're trying to buildcommunity, if you're really
focusing on your health andwellness, all whatever your core
values are, is your use oftechnology supporting that?
And I work with women to helpthem bring about some of their
(09:41):
creative projects, right, intothe world, like birthing these
beautiful creative projects,finishing a book, things like
that.
And one of the first verypragmatic things that we tackle
is, you know, their their use ofthe digital devices.
Because to your great point,it's really tough to tell how
(10:02):
far we've gone down this littlerabbit hole.
Um, for example, I run thesescreen-free Sunday challenges,
and this is 24 hours fully offscreens.
And this is really tough forpeople.
I did not understand how toughit would be at first.
24 hours is a long time forpeople to be off screens,
(10:26):
partially because people don'trealize how much they're on
them.
So we say, like, okay, so Iwon't stream Netflix that night
and I won't scroll social media,but then people forget, oh, you
know, I've got a map to thisnew place, or and I've got to
pay with my Apple Watch, youknow, I've got to look up the
recipe.
I mean, all these things,right?
(10:47):
And the screen free Sundaychallenge, you know, is a
commitment.
And it's just, but it's oneday, and it really helps to
illuminate how much you'reactually on these devices, you
know, and also critically thatcompulsion to be on them.
Even if your family's in sight,you've talked to everyone,
(11:08):
there's nothing criticalhappening, there's no emergency,
that compulsive feeling thatyou have to check the devices
will really, really be madeclear in a 24-hour period off
screens.
Mary (11:20):
Yeah.
And as you were talking abouthealth, I feel like if we put a
framework on it, like how we tryto eat right, we try to eat
healthy things.
And, you know, we have thesetimes where we're like, um, you
know, I really want the Doritosor I really want the cupcakes.
And if we try to go on a diet,because when I'm not gonna lie,
(11:43):
I looked at your website andwhen I saw that 24 hour, I was
like, there is no freaking way Icould do that.
And again, I'm a nature girl,like I'd rather be outside than
anywhere else.
But that's hard.
And I know from working withcollege students how hard it is
just for them to do it.
So to circle back on what I wassaying, to think about it as
what are you consuming?
(12:03):
Because trying to think about,okay, we need to have food.
And I think when we think aboutthe connection to the internet,
to social media, we need to beon those things at times.
It's our way of gettinginformation now.
So if we look at it in terms ofthat, I think there's a lot of
parallels because we need toalways consistently make the
(12:28):
choices, the good choices.
You know, how much do I want toconsume of this thing?
So I think that's one way toframe it.
But also, it by saying I'mgonna do this for 24 hours, I do
think what you're saying has tobe so true that you're like, I
knew I I was not doing well, butthis is really, really hard.
Kelsey (12:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And I love the parallel toeating well because as you said,
that is a choice you make overand over and over again every
day, right?
And in at least in my ethos ofwellness, once in a while I'll
still have raw cookie dough.
You know what I mean?
Like, like I love it.
(13:10):
Like there's there's you know,there's room for pleasure in
life, of course, right?
Um, but that is the exception,you know, that is a once in a
while.
And so if you use that, thatlogic, you know, treating
yourself and with kind of alimited and infrequent little
(13:30):
treat is is kind of how I lookat is social media, right?
The first step I'd say ifyou're looking at actionable,
you know, steps to take is tocurate the heck out of your
feed.
So if you're gonna be scrollingthrough Instagram all day, oh
my goodness, you know, be veryproactive about curating that so
(13:51):
that you're at least gettingsome better stuff in.
And, you know, I'll take longbreaks from social media like
months at a time, but as abusiness owner, as an online
business owner, you know,creating content, you know, you
use that platform and it's agreat platform, right?
Um, but I will, you know,slowly I've I've really
distanced myself from it.
I don't follow any of myfriends.
(14:12):
I don't want to have the FOMO,but I also don't want to have
the illusion that I ammaintaining that relationship
via social media because that'sa very shallow way to connect.
Better than nothing in somecases, absolutely, yes.
But I want to make sure that Ithink about the fact that I
haven't talked to my friend,even on Zoom, if they live in a
(14:34):
different country or whatever,in six months, and not and not
have my brain tricked intothinking, oh, we've been
connected, we know all abouteach other's lives right now
because we've seen it seen it onsocial media.
That is not that's notconnection in the way that I
want to be connecting with myfriends.
Yeah.
Mary (14:51):
Well, the one thing I was going to say is on Facebook, and
I think my generation I tothink is a little more Facebooky
than Instagram.
You can just see a feed withjust your friends.
And if you don't want all theads, you don't want to go down
the uh the rabbit holes of thereels that showing show up.
So that is one thing, but Ilove this idea of not following
(15:13):
your friends on social media.
So have you missed out onthings?
Have there been things whereokay, so yeah, talk talk about
that a little because I thinkthat fear of missing out is it's
really a thing.
Kelsey (15:26):
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm not saying that I won'tever pop into someone's profile
and kind of check out what'sgoing on, but uh in general, uh,
and and uh Cal Newport makes agreat argument for this.
So if you want to look intothis more deeply, check out that
book again, Digital Minimalism.
But he argues that uh that youyour relationships will be
(15:46):
better in the long run when youare prioritizing trying to
connect in person and trying toat least connect via phone or or
Zoom or whatever, if you can,right?
Um so the thing is though,about this approach is that the
tech companies have reallyleveraged this fear of missing
(16:08):
out onto us.
That is now the the case forneeding to be on social media
all the time, is this fear ofmissing out.
And you know, Mary, you'reyou're right.
Once in a while you're gonnamiss something.
Like that's just that's justthe nature of it.
The issue is that, you know, orthe belief that digital
minimalists have is the benefitsthat you are going to gain from
(16:33):
at least putting someboundaries in place will far
outweigh the usually very minorthings that you're going to miss
out on, you know, likesomeone's lunch, obviously is a
very silly example.
But even someone's vacation orif they have an important life
event, you know, to be honest,the question I ask myself is if
(16:54):
I'm only getting updates andseeking updates through social
media for these people, are theytruly my my closest friends?
You know, and I don't think weneed a thousand friends.
Um, there's that number, gosh,it has a name where it's about
the size of a historic villagethat you can really keep in your
(17:15):
mind.
I think it's 150 people, right?
That you can really kind of betracking through time.
And I don't need to know thestatus updates of a thousand
people, right?
I just want to make sure I'm Iam connecting with like the 10
to 30 most important people inmy life, right?
And maintaining thoserelationships in a real way.
Mary (17:34):
Well, and I know some of the things that I've started
with, I don't look at my phonein bed.
Like I try to in the morning, Idon't pick it up till I'm out
of bed.
I mean, I think it starts withthe little things because one of
the things that I've noticedfor myself is when I really try
to put the phone aside, and I'malso a reader, I go outside a
(17:56):
lot, but sometimes I'm like,wait, what what do I do now?
Because it has filled so muchof our space in our life.
So if somebody is thinking, howdo I do this?
What are some practical tipsthat you can give to people?
Kelsey (18:12):
Yeah, well, you make an excellent point.
And that was the first piece offeedback I got from those
24-hour challenges is thatpeople had no clue how to spend
the time.
The flip side of that, theupside of that is that people
that don't have enough time, youknow, they're all, you know,
just kind of everything's crazyand there's there's not enough
time to do this or that or writeyour book, whatever.
(18:33):
It's that they found a lot moretime when they started putting
these boundaries in place.
But at first, yes, it is alittle tricky when you have that
void, you know, it's beenreferred to for sure.
And that's why the the screenfree Sunday challenge is a is a
is a you know, is a challengeand a pretty drastic approach.
(18:53):
But yes, you can start puttingin place these little baby
steps, similar to how if youwere going to do a drastic
dietary change, you know.
Um, you can go cold turkey.
And I personally that's um anapproach that works for me
sometimes, but baby steps areare great.
And I can run through a coupleof mine if if you like.
Mary (19:14):
Yeah, please do.
Kelsey (19:16):
Yeah, so I have a 7 p.m.
to 7 a.m.
Um no phone boundary, andyou're you know, just like you
said, it doesn't always work allthe time if I get home later
than 7 p.m., you know, and Ihave a couple of things I need
to do, whatever.
But for the most part, off thephone, and the phone's actually
(19:36):
in the closet because if you'veexperienced this, when your
phone is within sight, you havethat urge to check it, right?
And there's a study called TheBrain Drain, an academic paper
that talks about how when yourphone is in your sight, your
attention is more fractured.
So you're actually just a bitmore dumb if you're trying to
(19:57):
work with your phone next toyou, or you know, really
important if you're trying toconnect with someone else and
your phone is next to you, evenface down.
You know, you just are payingless attention to that person.
So anyway, so 7 p.m.
to 7 a.m., the phone is awayand off screens at 7 p.m.
So no Netflix or whatever.
(20:18):
And no, this November, whenwe're um filming this, I am
doing a no scrolling challengefor myself.
So a month of no streaming andno scrolling.
And, you know, it's earlyNovember, so uh it's been
interesting, even just in thosefew days.
And then I don't have anynotifications, sound or visual
(20:39):
notifications on my phone.
So um that when you talk aboutmissing out, that will happen
sometimes with things that comein that would be nice to have
taken a call for, like thedoctor's office or something,
you know, appointments that needto be made or whatever.
So it's slightly annoyingsometimes that I just have to
(21:00):
call them back.
But I find that not havingthose sound notifications on
means that I'm focusing onwhatever it is that is in front
of me.
Even if that's just doing mydishes or whatever, it's that I
am I am working on being morepresent and not having my
attention being fracturedbecause of those sounds.
Mary (21:24):
Well, and I think what people need to realize is it
does take time for your brain tokind of detox because there is
going to be a lot more quiet anda lot more downtime and a lot
more stillness.
And we don't always know whatto do with that.
Kelsey (21:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, I hesitate to reallydraw a parallel between
addiction, you know, tosomething like a drug um to the
phone, but a lot of themechanisms in the brain are the
same.
You're foraging for thatdopamine that you didn't earn.
(22:05):
And the more we call it fakedopamine that you're collecting
up, the tougher it's going to beto not be collecting up that
dopamine.
I mean, you are a therapist,you know.
I think you, you know, you Iknow a lot of your listeners
have obviously understand thisconcept too.
It's just that we don't,because of where we're at
currently, with these supersmart, you know, tech nerd gods
(22:28):
um having made this so, so, socompelling, we don't, we don't
quite realize, I think, what'shappening.
Mary (22:34):
Yeah.
Well, it was interesting to seeit start as when I worked in a
high school, and I would see thefirst few students who would
start to bring cell phones.
And then the first time that Ihad a student in my office talk
about her boyfriend at anotherschool just broke up to her with
her.
And I'm like, Well, how do youknow?
Well, he texted me and I'mlike, oh, and that was sort of
(22:59):
for me how the roller coasterclicks to the top and then it
just goes down the other sideand gains momentum.
And what interestingly, I seemto be perceiving now is that
young people are starting torecognize that it feels bad.
And they are trying to findways to disconnect.
(23:21):
And I know even when I workedwith, I would say five years
ago, they would do the thingwhere when they went out to
dinner together, they all puttheir phones in the middle, and
whoever picked theirs up firsthad to pay the bill.
They were trying to find waysto make it acceptable to put the
phone down because I thinkinstinctively we know this isn't
(23:42):
good for me.
But I do think that there'sstarting to be this realization
among people that have grown upwith these phones attached to
their hand that it's not helpingtheir mental health.
Kelsey (23:54):
Yeah, I I have heard that too.
And I was surprised by thisbecause you know, it takes a lot
of awareness to recognize thatsomething that has been there
since you can remember is is badfor you and make a conscious
choice to put that away.
I'll make a recommendation forthe book The Anxious Generation
(24:15):
right now.
If you're a parent, um it's ithonestly scared the shit out of
me.
Like I, you know, and Iappreciate it because it's data
driven and he doesn't reallypull any punches about what's
happening to our brains and ourand our communities because of
this.
So if you're a parent, I'd say100%, you know, read read that.
Um, but I I agree.
(24:36):
I think it's still a smallpercentage, but there is a
growing understanding that thisis something that we need to
look at, right?
And I think individually thatcan come from that feeling that
I've certainly had, I presumemany of your listeners have had
when you do lose an hour toscrolling, you know.
(25:01):
The first day of my no scrolly,you know, streaming challenge,
November 1st, I went to postsomething, you know, content,
and I literally ended up readingabout these restaurants in New
York City, you know, they'relike, oh, Thai food, so tired
now.
And I'm like off in this wacky,you know, I love food, so okay,
(25:25):
my, you know, I've got a lot ofrestaurant stuff on my feed.
But, you know, before I evenunderstood what was happening, I
was deep in thinking about,reading about, you know,
articles about these restaurantsin New York City.
Um, and I looked up like, oh mygosh, holy crap.
This is the kind of stuff I'mtalking about where you
literally compulsively pick upyour phone, scroll, and you've
(25:49):
lost that time.
And anyway, the point is, Ithink we are starting to
recognize how it feels to havethat sort of, I would I describe
it as an emptiness and ahollowness after you get done
doing that, which if youcontrast with how it feels to
have a really fulfillingin-person interaction.
And even like here on digital,you know, on Zoom, because we,
(26:11):
you know, we're across thecountry from each other, we
can't meet up in person, youknow, it feels really different.
Right.
And I think that's something topay attention to.
Mary (26:20):
Yeah.
And I think it's good forpeople to know that even though
this is what you do, thealgorithms are so effective.
It knows exactly what to put infront of you to get that hook.
And so I want to take um takethe side road now to talk about
connection because I think partof where FOMO comes from is we
(26:41):
want to know what's happeningwith people and we want to be
part of things.
So now that has moved so farinto the digital realm, which of
course was spurred on even moreby COVID when we had to be
separate.
So I think a legitimate concernfor people is how am I going to
(27:02):
find ways to reconnect topeople in real life when we have
for so long now been doing thatvirtually?
So, what do you say about that?
How do you help people maybethink about ways they can build
a true in-person connection?
Kelsey (27:20):
Yeah, thanks, Mary.
This is something that I am sopassionate about.
So I love that we're talkingabout this right now.
And it's interesting because acouple years ago, when I was
building my course, How to BuildYour Circle, I knew I wanted to
focus on in-person community,but because you know, digital
age is here and we do so much ofthis online, I was like a
(27:41):
little shy, you know, abouttalking about digital boundaries
and in-person and in now.
I, you know, the course hasevolved.
Now I like, no, to build thein-person community, you have
got to put some boundaries onyour digital use.
That's just the truth, right?
Unless you're already somewherealong the journey of digital
(28:02):
minimalism and you've got greatboundaries.
That's great.
You know, I suspect if you'reif you have that, you probably
aren't listening.
This isn't the podcast episodethat you know you're needing to
listen to.
But so bravo to you.
But for the rest of us, whichis most of us, you know, this,
these are my beliefs, but thedata also supports this, right?
So there was the termloneliness epidemic coined some
(28:24):
time ago.
And there is there are so manystudies that show that with the
rise of the smartphone came adecrease in mental health and a
decrease in the amount of timethat we're spending together.
To your point, COVID obviouslydidn't help that, right?
So that's that's unfortunate.
But we've got the digitalcommunities now, we've got the
(28:46):
digital relationships, we've gotthe connection online, and
that's that can be fine andgreat.
But meanwhile, our in-personcommunities are crumbling,
right?
So when we talk about how do wego about rebuilding some of
these, I think it's important tonote that because we have kind
of gone so far down this path,probably is going to take a bit
(29:10):
of work, a bit of discomfort.
And I just saw a great quotethat said, if you want a
village, you need to act like avillager.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Oh, yeah.
Kelsey (29:20):
So, you know, if you want community, you need to act
communal.
And so some of the things thatI recommend that people do,
especially if you are above theage of, you know, 35, 40, when
it becomes like a little funnierto make friends, you know, and
to build community, is you know,really putting yourself in the
actual spaces where people arehaving your phone away.
(29:43):
I'm talking about in line atthe grocery store when you could
be paying a quick bill orresponding to a text, you know,
putting your phone away and workon making those little
conversations that we used tohave back in the day.
I don't Know, I feel like weused to chit-chat with strangers
all the time, and now thateveryone's just looking down at
(30:05):
their phones, does really pause.
And I'll just note one morelittle actionable step here that
relates to this is batchingyour phone time.
So, you know, I still want tobe responsive to people that are
texting me, clients, friends,family.
But I set aside, not always, ofcourse, but I try to set aside
a time.
Okay, I'm gonna take a fullhour right now to do all my
(30:28):
texts, to answer my emails, toscroll, post content, whatever
it is, right?
And even some fun stuff, evensome fluffy stuff, eating the
cookie dough equivalent ofsocial media, whatever, watching
the dog memes and videos, youknow.
But when you're out in public,really trying to be off your
phone and trying to re-engagewith the people around you.
(30:49):
And especially if they'redifferent age, you know, they
look like someone who's reallydifferent from you.
I think we could really use alittle bit more, you know, sort
of connection with people thatare not exactly like us, which
of course the algorithm presentsto us, right?
We're getting stuck in theseecho chambers.
Those are some of those, thosefirst things you can do.
Mary (31:12):
And I think that the anxiety has increased about
that.
I mean, when I worked at acollege during COVID and we had
to go fully online, one of thethings that I predicted is that
when we're back in a classroom,because there was so much fear
around COVID, there's going tobe a lot more social anxiety.
And I do think that's the case.
And so again, going back to theidea of these small changes,
(31:37):
that when you are somewhere out,put your phone away and
actually look around.
Like when I am in the grocerystore line, I always make eye
contact with the person that'sringing me up, or unless you're
going through the auto checkout,which is now everywhere.
But I try to sometimesintentionally go through a line
where there is a cashier andmake eye contact and just say,
(31:59):
How's your day today?
or make small talk becausewe've really forgotten the art
of that.
And when I would walk throughcampus, I would always want to
try to make eye contact withstudents.
And 80% of the time they'relooking down because they're
catching up, you know, betweenclasses and they're catching up
with things.
But I think the do not disturbsetting is so valuable because
(32:23):
that immediately takes away whatyou're talking about, the
alerts.
It makes it harder to worrythat, oh, if somebody texts me
and I don't get back to them,they're gonna be mad or they're
gonna think I'm ignoring them.
Well, if they see that you havethat on, that immediately
releases you and makes it easierto say, okay, from four o'clock
(32:44):
to five o'clock, I'm gonnaactually go in and look at the
text that I got and respond tothem.
So that idea of batchingthings, I think is a great idea
because you're still doing it.
You're just having a little bitmore control over when and how
you do it.
Kelsey (33:01):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I love a do not disturbfunction.
I mean, I don't have sound onanyway, but to your excellent
point, that function, and Idon't know if it's on Android, I
have an iPhone, but um, maybethere's something similar,
right?
But lets people know that youprobably aren't gonna be
responding.
And for me personally, I thinkno one expects that I'm gonna be
(33:22):
responding immediately anymore,you know?
So everyone sort of knows thatit might take me a couple of
days, it's just not my priority.
But yeah, if it's if it's a newthing that you're implementing,
yes, that's a that's a greatfunction for sure.
And I think even tellingpeople, ideally when you connect
with them in person, you know,or on the phone, that you're
(33:44):
trying out this new thing.
Um, and it doesn't mean thatyou don't care or that you're,
you know, you're not there forthem or you don't want to know
what's going on, but that you'rethat you're trying to just find
a little bit more distance andpresence in the day-to-day.
Yeah.
Mary (34:00):
Yeah.
And I think we worry a lotabout what other people will
think.
And that in many ways, and inmany things I've talked about on
different episodes, gets in theway of choosing to do what's
best for us because you know,we're we're the caretakers, we
are the connectors.
And sometimes we sense what weneed.
We need to have some distancefrom the frenetic energy of
(34:22):
scrolling or trying to keep up.
And by giving ourselvespermission to do what we need to
do, it can make that a littlebit easier.
Kelsey (34:34):
That's a great point.
Yeah.
Mary (34:35):
Yeah.
And I think, Kelsey, there areprobably people listening
thinking, well, it's not out ofcontrol for me.
I'm it can't be that bad forme.
What would you say to someonewho is on their phone every day
for, you know, and your phonewill tell you how many hours you
average in a day, but peoplethink, oh, it's not affecting my
brain.
I'm fine.
Kelsey (34:55):
Yeah.
Well, tracking the numbers isgreat to look at that because I
think I'm constantly surprised,you know, at how high those are.
But I would suggest doing amaybe a mini challenge for
yourself if you're not sure ifyou've got a problem to yeah, to
(35:15):
see how it could go to put yourphone away and on silent, you
know, for a couple hours.
And I do a little tick markwhen I have um that urge to
check it.
Sometimes I don't even knowwhat I'm doing.
Like when I first started doingthis work, I was pacing around
my house like as if I waslooking for something, and I had
(35:36):
no clue.
I would stop myself, like, whatam I doing right now?
I don't even know what I and Iwas kind of looking for my phone
unconsciously.
So when you catch yourselfreaching for your phone, feeling
like you want to, pacing aroundyour house, you know, to make a
little check mark and just dothat experiment with your own
brain, with yourself.
(35:56):
And also our inability to bebored, yeah, I think is a really
interesting metric.
Yeah.
So yeah.
So, you know, I'm, I knowyou're a nature person, I'm a
nature person.
So I think it's quite easy tobe off your phone when you're
going for an all-day hike, youknow, and you're literally out
of service.
So you don't really have achoice.
(36:17):
But when you're in your normalspace, like your house, you
know, doing your normal routine,I think that's when it can
really, really show up.
And I just don't want toforget, you know, we were
talking a lot about the issueand how hard it can be and the
detriment.
But I I would like to make surethat I talk about the benefit.
Mary (36:41):
Yes, yes, yes, right?
Kelsey (36:43):
Yeah.
So I have a lot of adult womenfriends that were diagnosed with
ADHD later, you know, after intheir 40s.
And I started feeling like Imaybe had that too, right?
Like I was suffering from ADHD,I couldn't focus, I couldn't
get my work done.
Even if it was a pretty simpletask, it was just kind of
(37:06):
torturous and boring, you know?
And I'm a pretty hyper person,so you know, I I have a lot of
energy and and I do feel like Ilove multitasking and getting
stuff done, but I just couldn'tdo the deep work.
You know, I was having issueswriting, I love writing, you
(37:28):
know, but it was just it was sohard.
And once I started puttingthese boundaries in place, it
started to become easier, notright away, but after some time,
it started to become easier forme to do the deep work.
And that's another book thatCal Newport wrote, Deep Work.
(37:48):
And and I'm right now I'mreading slow productivity.
So there's just, you know,there's all these um great
resources out there to help you.
But I realized that I was muchmore able to do that kind of
work when I had those digitalboundaries in place.
Right.
And I think that is a criticalpoint because, you know, our
(38:11):
attention is so fractured.
We're I I think a lot of us arefeeling just very overwhelmed.
Our lives are very chaotic.
And as you mentioned, when youdon't have that stillness, when
you don't have any space toprocess something that's
happened in your life, you'rereaching for something that
you're gonna be able to foragethis fake dopamine from, and
you're not able to like do thiswork, you know.
(38:34):
I feel like these are thereasons that that it's important
and the benefits are amazing.
Mary (38:41):
Yes.
Thank you so much for gettingus onto that because it is so
true that again, if we talkabout how we change our eating
and we feel healthier, it's thesame thing.
You can't just decide, oh, I'mgonna change what I eat, and by
next week I'm gonna lose 10pounds and I'm gonna feel great.
Anything that truly is a changedoes take time.
(39:04):
But I think of the book LastChild in the Woods, and I think
it's Richard Love, L-O-U-V.
Um, and I'm gonna link allthese books in the show notes
because they're so important.
But he talks about um mostlykids, but being in nature, just
seeing nature calms you down.
So when you talk about ADHD, myears perk up because having
(39:27):
worked in public schools, I knowthat true ADHD starts when
you're a child.
So when I worked with a collegepopulation and I started to see
so many of these 18-year-oldsbeing newly diagnosed, I'm like,
I don't know that this is uhADHD.
Um, and so let me tell you,when I say ADHD, it is a deficit
(39:49):
of attention.
Attention deficit, HD ishyperactivity disorder, which
the hyperactivity is more rare.
But if we talk about attentiondeficit, it is just a deficit of
being able to attend tosomething long term.
And when you have that as achild, a lot of that is your
wiring.
Now, a lot of times, though,also you can find a chaotic home
(40:12):
situation, but not always.
But when that starts to happenlater in life, that is an
environmental issue.
And the other thing that I wantpeople to realize is a lot of
times what the symptoms ofattention deficit disorder are
are mimicked by anxiety.
So often what people actuallyhave is anxiety, that
(40:36):
restlessness, that something'snot right.
I don't feel comfortable, Iwant to come out of my skin, I
can't concentrate on what I'mdoing.
That can be generalized anxietydisorder.
And where does that come from?
The fact that your brain hasnot learned how to have
stillness, how to be bored, howto sit in a place and actually
(40:57):
be mindful and not be thinkingabout what am I missing?
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah.
Mary (41:02):
And you're right, those benefits are tremendous.
We just have to have thepatience to get there.
And you're telling us it's notlinear because even you struggle
with it.
And so don't give up if you'retrying, you're gonna have some
days, especially if it's maybe arough day for you, where you
might use that crutch more.
I'm just gonna lose myself inbinging or you know, binge
(41:27):
watching something or scrollingthrough my phone.
You can get back on track, butit's so important to know the
benefits.
Kelsey (41:35):
Absolutely, yes.
Yeah, thank you for pointingthat out.
And it's great to hear that youstepped us through that as a
mental health professional andwhat you saw as well.
So, yes, to your point, yeah,some days gonna be a wash.
You know, some days you have aterrible day and you just kind
of fall into that that bingeytrap.
(41:56):
But you know, the the greatnews is the more you practice
this work, I'd say the easier itis to more quickly get back on
track like the next day becauseyou go to bed feeling like, hmm,
like, you know, like I kind ofI don't not I'm not super
excited about the way I feelright now.
(42:16):
And it's easier to get back ontrack the next day and then make
maybe make those little bingeysessions a little shorter,
right?
Yeah.
So absolutely, and I don't wantto be anyone to be discouraged
by this because as we've noted acouple of times now, it is hard
and they have made it socompelling for our brains,
(42:38):
right?
So much money poured into this.
So you're you know, you'reyou're fighting a little bit of
an uphill battle.
It does get easier, it is worthit, you know.
And there are ways to make surethat just want to point out a
little pragmatic tip that, youknow, for example, my mom was
having some health issues.
I do want her to be able tocall me, you know, if she's in
the hospital.
(42:58):
So I have a call throughmechanism for any 24 hours a day
for her or my stepdad to reachme at any point.
So if you have kids, you know,I'm not recommending that you go
off your phone and and don'tanswer.
So you can have those mechanismbreakthroughs too, but uh, you
know, most of the time thingsare probably not an emergency.
(43:19):
And you and I remember a timewhen we were fine leaving the
house, uh-huh, you know, not notknowing where we're going
exactly, and also not havinganyone able to reach us.
And that was fine.
So I think a really interestingexercise is leaving your house
without your phone.
Woof, that one is still toughfor me, you know.
(43:39):
Even if I'm just going to yogaand to run errands in my in my
small little town, it is hard toleave without your phone.
Yeah.
Mary (43:50):
Yeah.
And I've forgotten itsometimes, but I'm usually like
if my husband and I are goingout for to dinner, we'll pull
out of the driveway and I'mlike, oh, wait, I forgot my
phone.
And sometimes I'm like, youknow what?
I'm just gonna leave it.
But that's cheating because hehas his phone.
So, you know, I think it's itis one of those things that's
hard to do.
And I think the other thingthat maybe people can start to
(44:10):
think about is what can I doinstead?
Because that brings us back tothat feeling of loose ends.
Like, what am I missing?
What am I gonna do with myhands?
What should I?
We used to know, like I reallytry to read a physical book.
I try not to get on a Kindle,even though sometimes that's
where the book is that I want toread.
But it helps me to put downsomething electronic because I
(44:32):
have reading time in the morningif I'm reading a physical book.
But it's sort of like if you'rebinging anything, whether it's
TV or food or whatever, when youget the urge, I think it's
really helpful to have a listthat, and I almost said a list
on your phone.
I'm like, Mary, like that's notit, but have a list of what can
(44:52):
I do instead?
Take a walk, um, you know, goto the library and find a book,
uh, go out for a coffee, youknow, different things like
that.
There are a lot of thingsthough that are connected to a
phone, but I think trying tobrainstorm those things.
So when you do feel that senseof, you know, now I have anxiety
(45:14):
without my phone, that willcalm down.
Yeah.
Just breathe and go do someyoga or some things, you know,
what can we substitute?
I think can be helpful.
Kelsey (45:23):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think that's great.
And oftentimes what I've seenin my survey results, the
feedback is that people tacklethese projects, especially
around their physicalenvironment that they have put
off for a really long time.
Yeah.
So I think that's always agreat one.
Um, you know, always optimizingand um cleaning your space and
(45:45):
wanting, you know, your yoursanctuary, right?
Working on that.
And I yeah, also kind of wantto point out for the long term,
one thing that we want to thinkabout is we used to have hobbies
that were not connected to the,you know, to digital devices,
right?
Back in the day.
(46:06):
And so from what I'm seeing inthe research, the hobbies that
we have where we are producingsomething physically with our
hands, whether that's quilting,sewing, woodworking, you know,
even writing, creative projects.
Yeah, baking, absolutely,right?
These are they they hit us in adifferent way than even if
(46:29):
we're producing somethingdigitally, I think you know,
that that's wonderful and great.
You know, a lot of times we doour writing on the computer
probably, and and that'swonderful.
But I think um for our mentalhealth, for our wellness, for
our sense of accomplishment inour day, what we think our brain
needs is to totally check outand blank out and get this
(46:51):
respite, you know, of scrollingor binging.
But as you know, your brain isstill doing stuff, it's still
having to process all of thatinformation.
It's not a rest, right?
And if you if you want to bewinding down and doing something
that's going to fill your cup,it's these hobbies, these
(47:12):
high-value hobbies that you canlook for to reintroduce back
into your life that may havegone away that you can work on a
little bit, say in the eveningsor in these in these moments
of, you know, kind of feelinglike you want to be scrolling.
And that will bring you morefulfillment and a more of a
(47:33):
feeling of purpose, you know,than the scroll, you know, the
doom scroll will ever, I think.
Mary (47:39):
So great suggestions.
And I know I shared with youbefore we started recording that
my husband and I are looking tomove into a city now because I
think that we live in a prettyrural area.
And I think that ability toconnect, because now that I'm
not working in a collegepopulation where there's a lot
happening and there's a lot ofconnections, in-person
connections, and you work foryourself, you know, that can be
(48:02):
a little bit lonely.
You know, so being able to makeconnections somewhere and
finding a group, a book club ora hiking group or something
where you're actually physicallywith people, I think is really
important.
So Kelsey, you've given us,you've given us such good
suggestions today.
So review a little bit what youoffer and where people can find
(48:24):
you.
And then I will also link thatin the show notes.
Kelsey (48:27):
Absolutely.
Thanks, Mary.
Yeah.
So my website is Kelsey LGreen, L like Lemur, and um the
Instagram is same handle, KelseyL Green, LinkedIn.
You can find me there too.
And really, I do two mainthings.
I uh offer a course called Howto Build Your Circle.
The next cohort will be inFebruary, and that will have um
(48:49):
a live digital component, youknow, because we're spread out
all over.
Um, but that is really walkingyou through from the very
beginning, like if you'refeeling isolated, lonely, sad,
no in-person connections, tobuilding a thriving social
circle.
And the other thing that Ioffer is called Summit in Six.
That is a mastermind for womenthat are working to bring their,
(49:14):
you know, birth their personalcreative projects into
existence.
And they're interested at leasta little bit in setting the
digital boundaries and doingthis work with a cohort.
So that is a very intense, highaccountability mastermind, and
that will start in um inJanuary.
So that that's really the twomain things that I do.
(49:35):
And then I work selectivelyone-on-one with people that are
interested in in building thisum, you know, thriving social
circle for themselves or wantsome coaching around um around
things like that.
Mary (49:47):
Yeah.
Well, I think you're doingreally important work, and I
think you are ahead of the curvebecause I don't find a lot of
people doing what you're doing,but the books that you named are
really, really in, you know,they're interesting.
They open your mind, theyreally start to delve into the
topic.
And I think it is somethingwhere we're gonna start to
(50:07):
recognize more and more that weneed to regulate it.
So I think you're doingimportant work, and I really
love that you were here today.
So thank you for theconversation.
Kelsey (50:16):
Mary, such a delight to be here and speak with you and
your listeners.
So thank you so much for theopportunity.
Mary (50:23):
Sure.
And I want to thank everyonefor listening.
My upcoming book, Nature Knows,goes right to the nature-y
heart of this topic, helping youto connect to your inner nature
while using the wisdom ofplants to help you find
belonging, set boundaries, andmaintain wellness.
So if you want to be on my booklaunch team, I would love that.
You'll get all the fun updatesand insider perks.
(50:43):
There's a link in the shownotes.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
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