May 1, 2025 • 55 mins
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Women's socialization as caretakers often leads to physical health crises when we neglect our own needs for too long. Melissa Crook shares her powerful story of experiencing severe anxiety attacks at age 50 that sent her to the emergency room twice in one week, ultimately becoming the catalyst for her journey toward self-awareness and authentic living.
• Understanding how our essential nature combines both biology and socialization
• Recognizing when our bodies are desperately trying to get our attention
• Learning that boundaries aren't about controlling others but about our own choices
• Breaking free from the narrative that self-care is selfish
• Discovering the power of curiosity over judgment when examining our past
• Understanding that emotions aren't "bad"—they're important clues
• Moving anger through our bodies in healthy ways rather than suppressing it
• Creating daily self-care practices like movement, journaling, and intentional fueling
• Finding communities that support authentic living and growth
Visit Melissa's website to learn more about her podcast, speaking engagements, book, and upcoming online courses focused on helping women embrace all their complex layers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
So often, women seem to take onthe role of caretaker such a
simple word to encompass so manydifferent behaviors, thoughts
(00:49):
and feelings.
We often talk on this showabout how both women and men are
socialized to fill certainroles in relationships, but
there are also brain differencesbetween genders and or sexes
that contribute to how weconnect.
This is why I so often refer toour essential nature.
I mean I did a whole episode onit.
Essential nature is thatcombination of nature and
(01:12):
nurture that is unique to eachone of us.
Anyway, often being a caretakercan mean that we prioritize the
needs of others before our own.
When we do add our own needs tothe list of priorities, we can
initially feel guilty or evenunsure of how to take care of
ourselves.
Does self-care mean monthlypedicures or wine with our
(01:33):
girlfriends every so often?
Well, yeah, but no, not totally.
Self-care, almost 100% of thetime, includes setting
boundaries.
I often work on boundaries withmy clients, but even that term
can lead to a sense of guilt oruncertainty of how they're
supposed to do that.
The word boundaries can feel sofinal and non-negotiable, and
(01:57):
that seems to be the antithesisof caring for others.
Right, but our care equationneeds to include ourselves and
teaser.
My guest today will give asobering example of what can
happen when we put our own needsat the bottom of the list.
My guest today is Melissa Crook.
Today we're going to explorethe concept of self-care and
(02:17):
boundaries and, because we oftenterm the emotions we experience
as we navigate, learning theselife skills as bad, we're going
to throw that in too.
Melissa's mission is tonormalize conversations for
women surrounding self-care,emotional health, boundaries and
embracing all of our beautifuland complex layers.
(02:37):
She is aware and sensitive tobarriers that women face,
particularly our sisters inother marginalized communities.
Through her own podcast, theFeel Podcast, as well as other
endeavors, she creates a safespace for everyone by hosting
open conversations to support,learn and grow.
It's so cool that many of thethemes I explore here are
(02:59):
reflected in the stories andexperiences of her guests on her
podcast.
Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, melissa.
Melissa (03:08):
Thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here, Mary.
We talked before about all ofthe ways we cross over and the
importance of us doing this workand supporting and showing up
women and giving them a voiceand helping them feel supported
in this.
Mary (03:24):
Yeah, it's so funny because as soon as we got on
this call and we had not metbefore, that energy you have, I
mean, I think we both hit kindof that same energy level.
So, yes, I'm really excited tojump in and kind of explore all
of this with you.
So I would love if you wouldstart by sharing the experience
you had when you turned 50 thatreally set you on this path to
(03:47):
use your work to empower women.
Melissa (03:50):
Yeah, I mean unfortunately and fortunately I
mean because it set me on thispath, but it's a story that's
not unfamiliar to women.
And so I was turning 50 themonth of September in 2019.
My husband works in higher edadministration in colleges.
We've lived all over thecountry.
We were just in the beginningof our latest move to Lubbock,
(04:14):
texas, where he was going to beworking for Texas Tech
University System, and I wasgoing to be once again looking
for a job but I've become prettyadaptable at that.
But our girls, our daughterswomen they're not girls anymore.
We're all basically out of thehouse.
Our oldest had just gottenmarried the previous spring.
(04:35):
Our two others were in college,one was about to graduate, the
other one was in the middle ofit and so we were making this
move on our own for the firsttime.
So I thought, oh, this is goingto be easy, I don't have to
find schools, I don't have tofind activities and you know,
and just all of the adjustmentsthat come with moving children
(04:56):
and families and all of that.
And instead, what happened wasit's like my nervous system was
like all right, you've got thetime and space.
It's time for you to payattention to the messages we're
sending to you.
And so we were still in a hotel.
We had not moved into our houseyet, it had just the deal had
just closed and I came back froma morning workout walk and
(05:23):
could not get my system tosettle.
Took a shower, did all thenormal things that normally
settle my system and instead myheart rate started racing and my
blood pressure.
I could just feel I waslightheaded and I thought it was
having a heart attack.
Go downstairs to the hotellobby.
I'm like hi, sorry to botheryou, I think I might be having a
(05:46):
heart attack.
And the poor kid was probably acollege student at tech, at the
front desk, his eyes wide open,and but there's this whole like
paperwork.
I had to sign to call anambulance when my husband's
office was less than fiveminutes away from the hotel, and
so I just called him.
I'm like I'm so sorry to botheryou, but I think I'm having a
heart attack and I need to getto the emergency room.
(06:07):
He was like I don't even thinkhe said goodbye, he was just out
the door and there before.
An ambulance could have gottenthere anyway, and so I don't
worry about it.
My husband's coming and thispoor kid's watching, like
waiting for me to collapse inthe, you know, right there in
front of him, in front of Godand everyone.
And so my husband gets there,we get to the ER.
Mind you, we have been in townfor maybe 10 days, like you
(06:30):
don't even know for sure wherethe ER is.
So he asked people in hisoffice and of course they're
panicked because he's just movedhere and his wife's, you know,
having this medical emergency.
So we, I get in there and theytake my I mean, my blood
pressure and heart rate werejust through the roof.
They're like, okay, we'regetting you back right now.
Like there wasn't even, therewas no sitting in the in the
(06:53):
room and and they ran a bunch oftests and got me settled and
over time, my blood pressuresettled, my heart rate settled
and after they said, you know,they checked my heart.
They're like everything lookshealthy.
We're going to send you to thiscardiologist just to make sure.
But clearly something washappening here and so we want to
just make sure we cover all thebases.
(07:13):
So they did full like chestx-ray, all this stuff.
I was there for probably fouror five hours, wow, and and and
then, once everything settled,they released me.
Well, not even a week later,same scenario over again.
I was at the house, this timewaiting for our furniture to be
(07:33):
delivered, and here come thesymptoms again.
And there was an additionalsymptom where my bladder just
dumped Like I just was just like, well, that was unfortunate.
So I'm like trying to find myclothes to change.
But also the same othersymptoms are happening and I was
finding the 10, you know, thiswas like maybe five, six days
(07:57):
later.
So I call my husband again.
He's like we better get youback there this time to check
every organ, every system.
I'd been to the cardiologistalready that week and he's like
your heart health is great, likeyou'd have to have a really
catastrophic event for yourheart to not be healthy.
Your heart is very healthybecause I've always moved my
whole life, like I've been arunner and all those things.
(08:19):
So an ER nurse in that second goaround slipped.
He's like you're not going tohear about this doctor on your
insurance plan.
I know someone who I think canhelp you, is a little more
non-traditional, but I think hemight be able to help you
unravel this puzzle and heslipped me on a ripped off piece
of envelope this guy's name andnumber.
(08:40):
We were at a certain hospitalthat wanted you to only tell
them about the doctors in theirsystem and he didn't want to get
in trouble.
Then he's like I think thisperson might help you.
So I was like so I left likeboth relieved that all my organs
and everything looks great.
I was wearing like a heartmonitor for a month to make sure
they're like watching for anylike disruptions or arrhythmias,
(09:02):
all those things.
All that came back fine, likedisruptions or arrhythmias, all
those things.
All that came back fine.
And so I go to this doctor andwe started unraveling.
Yes, you're in perimenopause.
Yes, there's some hormonalthings going on.
But he's like so tell me aboutyour background, you know, tell
me about your mental healthjourney, tell me.
And we started unravelingthings and he's like I think
(09:24):
there's a lot of unprocessedthings in your body that are
asking for attention.
Meantime, my husband, almostsimultaneously that day.
He's like listen, babe, I'vebeen watching you walk around
with your good friend, anxiety,our entire relationship, and we
were yeah, at this point we'dbeen together for 27, 28 years.
(09:45):
And he's like I think it's timeto.
There's no excuses, there'snobody else to take care of and
I had been taking care of peoplesince I was 10 years old.
I've grew up in a veryemotionally chaotic home and
there was a lot asked of me at avery early age, really starting
at six years old and thenmagnified again at 10 and then
(10:07):
beyond.
So literally had been learnedthe narrative that my value and
my importance, and I receivedaffirmations for how I showed up
for other people, taking careof them well, supporting them
well, not having a lot of needsof my own.
If I did have needs, I was toldI was selfish for having those
(10:28):
needs, and I started hearingthat narrative from my own
mother when I was in elementaryschool.
So I've been carrying all ofthat around with me, just the
narrative plus the narratives wejust get as women.
And I had prioritized.
I had very enmeshed andcodependent relationships and so
(10:50):
got into therapy and I wasfortunate to find a therapist
that changed my life.
It was my third round oftherapy over my 50-year life and
this time it was like nope, Ican't just skim the surface here
, it's time to dig in.
And that began my journey ofunpacking all the unprocessed
trauma and emotions andrecognizing and naming the
enmeshed and codependenttendencies in my relationships
(11:13):
and rethinking and relearninghow to show up first for myself
and then for others in a waythat was healthy for me and not
to my detriment.
Mary (11:27):
That is such a compelling story and it's so fascinating
and I have said this before,definitely on this show that I
think life has to get a littlemore aggressive as we go to
bring things to our attention.
And one of the things that I'velearned in 35 years as a
(11:47):
therapist, because when I wastrained it was very different
and I started to recognize that,first in my clients and then
you know, when we hit menopausethis cascade of hormonal changes
happens, which I think opensthe door and also we are an
accumulation of our experiences.
But I started to recognize thatthe work of therapy is not from
(12:09):
the neck up, that we are awhole being, and so I think the
compelling part of this is thatyour body was showing you
physically that it neededattention, emotionally and
mentally.
Melissa (12:25):
Yeah, she was screaming at me.
I think we misterm thissometimes, as women especially,
we get into those middle ageyears where it's kind of the
perfect storm and I know so manywomen that have gone through
this and are going through thiswhere our body is finally like I
need attention and we frame itas our body failing us.
No, she's just asking forattention.
She's giving us clues, she'sletting us know that things need
(12:49):
to be adjusted, need to beaddressed, need to be paid
attention to.
There's no room to stuffanymore.
These things are overflowingout of us and it's time to get
serious about our own wellbeingand quit believing the lie that
it's selfish.
Mary (13:05):
Exactly exactly.
And you know it's funny as youwere telling your story, because
we talked about this a littlebefore I hit record.
In your story you said thatwhen you had this initial kind
of orchestra of all thesesymptoms twice you said to
people when you were gettinghelp I'm sorry, but yes, would
(13:26):
most people who think they'rehaving a heart attack and I
don't want to insert the wordmale in there, but would most
people be like yo, dude, I needhelp?
And we're even in thosesituations sort of gently easing
our way in, like raising ourhand, like excuse me, but I
think I might be dying.
Melissa (13:40):
Yes, yes, and I, you and I, and I think it's so
important.
This is something I work withwomen on now, especially young
women going out in the worldfrom college and try to train it
out of them, because my husbandand I had an exercise that we
did and it's something he hasbeen talking to me about for
years.
That drives him crazy.
He's like quit apologizing foreverything.
(14:02):
You apologize for the ant thatcrossed the street and got ant
as in bug, not ant as in a human.
The ant crossing the streetthat gets run over by the car.
I want you to understand.
You are not responsible for thewell-being of everything in the
world.
And so I talked to my therapistabout this.
This was four years ago nowthat I'd gotten into therapy a
little bit and she's like yep,okay.
(14:23):
So one time she kind of tagteamed with my husband, without
ever meeting him.
But she's like you tell Bradythat every time you say sorry,
he's got to come up withsomething to catch it, and he
was very good at catching it,like he didn't have to practice
this.
He was so excited that I wasfinally willing to to do this.
And so every time I started asentence with I'm sorry.
(14:46):
He's like stop, I want you toreframe that sentence.
And he I would reframe thesentence to what was actually
true and take the I'm sorry.
And it took a good year to yearand a half of him being on this
with me daily, where I canhonestly say I rarely have to be
stopped now in that.
(15:07):
But it took very intentionaland he was very committed to
this because it was so ingrained.
So many times he would stop me.
I didn't even know I had saidit, it was just subconsciously
pouring out of me.
It was that ingrained and I seethis with women all the time.
Mary (15:24):
Absolutely, and it is so ingrained that it is almost
automatic.
And I do want to acknowledgethat, whatever we develop or
wherever we find ourselves, atthe point when we realize, okay,
I need to bring somebody inhere to help me through this, we
have likely done what we'vedone to survive.
(15:46):
So I don't want to downplaythat.
There are times where peoplehad an environment where they
needed to stay small to be safe100%, and that doesn't need to
be your story going forward, andI really think that's what the
message is that it's okay to bescared, but if you can
cognitively assess and know,okay, I'm safe in this space,
(16:09):
that's where the work can happen, which makes me now want to
segue to your podcast, the FeelPodcast Finding Empowerment,
embracing Layers.
So your experiences really gaverise to starting to give a
voice to this and using it tohelp other people.
Melissa (16:26):
It.
Did you talk about how theuniverse works?
I've been in therapy for a yearand a half and it was my
husband's birthday.
It was on March 1st 2021.
I'll never forget it.
And he was doing his own work aswell, like he saw me get in
about six months later hestarted doing his own work, with
his own therapist, to unpackhis stuff and it was like no,
it's time to get serious aboutthese things and be as healthy
(16:47):
as we should be.
So he wanted to do a dream wallthat day.
It was a book he was reading atthe time, had that as a
suggestion, so part of hisbirthday.
He always takes his birthdayoff as a day off.
And we got back from we'd goneto a movie and had lunch and
he's like will you do this dreamwall with me this afternoon?
I was like sure, just tell mewhat to do.
(17:08):
And so we got a bunch of stickynotes and we went into one of
our spared bedrooms there, wentin there and just started doing
the activities in the streamwall.
And through this dream wallcame this idea wait a minute.
I've had these experiences.
I know hundreds of women thathave had it show up for them in
(17:30):
different ways.
I'd listened to a lot ofpodcasts during COVID and
started thinking I think I coulddo this and I know a couple of
people who can help me with thetechnical side of it.
And all of a sudden, at the endof the day, it was like can
help me with the technical sideof it and I, all of a sudden, at
the end of the day, it was likeI think I'm going to start a
(17:50):
podcast and my husband's likeokay.
So I talked to those couple ofpeople.
One was a young woman that Ihad been mentoring since her
sophomore year of college.
She knew how to edit podcastsfrom her major and then my
middle daughter's collegeroommate was a marketing
background.
She knew how to start websites,she knew how to start social
media platforms, and they were2020 college grads still looking
for jobs and they neededexperience.
(18:11):
So I reached out to Valenciaand, abby, I'm like, would you
be interested in helping me withthis?
And we had our first meeting inMay of 2021.
And we launched with our firstepisode in July and I just
started with women.
I knew like I've lived all overthe country and just like,
would you be willing to havethese conversations with me and
(18:31):
we lined out our talking pointsand it was the framework that
myself and my daughters and myhusband and my son-in-law had,
who had all collectively andseparately been doing our own
work, found this framework thatwas really working for us and
I'm like I think this frameworkcan support other women in this
journey and help them get on atrack that is authentic to who
(18:55):
they are, that is aligned withwho they are and will help them
as they go through seasons inlife and not get to these points
I was getting.
I'm like too many of us arecrashing and burning and having
these serious outcomes to getour attention.
Let's get this framework in thehands of these women and girls
when they're young, when they're16, 17, 18, 21, 22.
(19:17):
And then they've got it tocarry them through their whole
lives.
But let's dispel thesenarratives and these myths about
topics we've been told not totalk about and start talking
about them and creating safespaces for them.
And the embracing layers piecefor me even though that's a
talking point in the podcastthat comes at the end when I'm
(19:38):
working with people in person,it's one of the first things we
address, because you willprioritize what you value.
The embracing layers piece is amajor component.
And then that when youunderstand that, then we can.
You'll value yourself enough toprioritize that self-care and
see that gosh, when I fill myown cup I am not only serving
(20:01):
myself but everyone that I am incontact with.
A relationship working for theyget the healthiest, most
authentic, refreshed version ofme, instead of the tired,
tattered, wore out, feeling likea martyr.
Irritable version of me becauseI'm just showing up everywhere
all the time for all the people,because I'm sure that's what's
(20:21):
necessary to be valuable in theworld, because that's the
narrative I was sold.
Mary (20:26):
I love that idea of embracing the layers, because we
do have parts of us that we'reembarrassed of or we wish
weren't true and you know, a lotof that is physical as our
bodies change.
But you know, we can.
We think about these thingswe've done or said or ways of
being, and we feel cringy, but Ifeel like we have so much more
(20:48):
grace that we give to otherpeople.
Melissa (20:51):
Yes, 100 percent, and that was the thing that really
started with.
And this again, kudos to mytherapist.
She really helped me impactthis.
But it starts with you knowyour own self-talk and you
really reframe it Like, would Isay that to my daughter, would I
say that to my best friend,would I say that to my coworker,
my sister, you know whoever?
(21:12):
It is Okay, then I need to notbe saying it to myself.
If I wouldn't say it to them,then let's make sure I'm not
saying it to myself.
So it starts with those simple,those little critical things
that come up in our heads thatare so again, like the I'm sorry
piece.
They're so subconsciouslyingrained we don't even hardly
notice them until someone asksus to pay attention.
(21:34):
So I spent a week in therapy,one week journaling and
documenting these things and itreally brought me into my
present self and helped me tostop disassociating.
And then she challenged me withbeing curious rather than
judgmental and you also heardthat on Ted Lasso that year, so
(21:55):
maybe she got it from him.
But when you're able toapproach, because I definitely
had chapters and seasons in mylife that I had a lot of shame
around, and I had a lot of shamearound, not only because of how
I felt how other people in mylife and family don't like to
say made me feel, becausefeelings of choice, but things
they said to me that I reallyembodied and were buried deep
(22:18):
inside me.
I don't have to love all thelayers, but I need to get to an
acknowledgement point, and sothe curiosity, rather than
judgment, allowed me to go backand meet myself in that moment,
meet my 18-year-old self and belike you know what, given all
that you were taught and theenvironment that you lived in,
it's no small wonder you endedup in this relationship, that
(22:41):
you made these choices, smallwonder you ended up in this
relationship, that you madethese choices.
It doesn't mean I loved them,but I could see them.
I could approach it withempathy and curiosity and
understanding, so that I was nolonger had shame around them.
I was no longer trying to keepparts of my life secret from
other people because I wasafraid of how disappointed they
would be, that it would shatterthe image they had of me, and
(23:05):
stopped worrying about that.
When I was able to do that, itwas like it lifted a whole
weight off my shoulders and itthen opened up my mind to being
curious rather than judgmentalabout other people's stories.
So when so-and-so reacts in avery defensive or hostile way to
me, I was like no, you know,they may have had a bumpy start
(23:27):
to their day, or I wonder ifsomething's going on in their
life and stopped seeing it as areflection of me and started
seeing that, being able toseparate the two and not the and
listen, I still struggle withthis, I still get triggered by
this, but I've got enoughresources.
I'm able to stop and be mindfulin the moment.
I'm like let's name what's trueversus an old narrative that's
(23:51):
trying to creep up and betreated as truth.
I'm able to be mindful of thatin the moment.
So that getting curious ratherthan judgmental with your layers
, so you can acknowledge themand understand and be empathetic
to them Again, don't have tolove them, don't want to repeat
them, but you remove the shameand you get that layer of shame
(24:11):
and fear and secrecy out of theway.
And then, all of a sudden,you're like you know what I
first and foremost owe it tomyself and to those I'm in
relationship with to take careof myself well.
So everyone gets the healthiest, authentic version of me,
starting with me.
And also I need to be mindful ofthe voices that I'm allowing
(24:36):
into my space, that I amallowing to pour into me, and
that really sent me on theboundaries journey.
And I have to give my oldestdaughter credit.
She really brought theboundaries idea home from an
internship she did in collegeand then her younger sisters did
that internship as well.
She brought that idea into ourhome and so we were able to
(24:57):
start exploring the boundariespiece even before the healthy
boundaries and how wecommunicate with each other and
when you know when we're goingto stop a conversation and walk
out of a room because it feelslike it's moving into an
emotional space where we're nolonger going to be able to make
progress.
I mean, that idea was broughtinto us a couple of years
earlier, but it came apart ofthis whole bigger piece of who
(25:19):
am I allowing to pour into me.
And I try to be very adamantabout the fact that boundaries
are not about someone else'sbehavior.
They're about your own choicesand your behavior.
So you communicate those thingswith I statements.
It's like listen, if thishappens, then I'm going to try
to steer the conversation in thewrong direction, or I'm going
(25:40):
to ask that we take a timeout.
Or I'm going to leave the roomin the wrong direction, or I'm
going to ask that we take atimeout or I'm going to leave
the room.
You decide what you need to do.
But just know that this is aline in the sand for me and this
is something that reallyviolates the healthy spaces
within me, and so I'm no longergoing to be able to stay in
spaces where this is happening.
It can also happen in.
(26:00):
I'm no longer going to be ableto stay at work till eight
o'clock at night.
If you ask that of me, justknow that that's something I'm
going to be saying no to,because I need more time at home
with my family or whatever thecase may be.
And the hard part it's one thingto set the boundaries.
It's another thing tocommunicate them, because there
(26:21):
are many people in your life,especially if you've got
enmeshed codependent, trauma,bond relationships they don't
want to hear that.
They like the way you've beenshowing up.
It supports them, staying inthat space and doesn't ask for
any questioning or any thoughtabout maybe something isn't
healthy here.
So there are some people that Ilove from afar now.
(26:41):
So there are some people that Ilove from afar now in my family
, and it was just that this isno longer behavior that I can
put my nervous system into theline of fire up.
I have some very somaticresponses and reactions and I
started noticing that.
I started noticing there werecertain faces and people that I
(27:03):
would get about 30, 35 minutesout from the time I was going to
be encountered with them and Ifelt my body seizing up and my
stomach getting queasy and Istarted noticing, or even just
getting a phone call from them,and what that brought up.
I'm like, oh, and realizing it'snot selfish to set boundaries
and protect my own health, andpeople that are truly in this
(27:28):
for me and want me to be wellaren't going to want me to do
that either, and so they willsupport that, whatever that
looks like.
And there are others that justit doesn't mean they don't love
you, but they just haven't donethe work themselves or they're
scared to.
I mean, it's real easy to staycomfortable and stay in.
(27:48):
Curiosity and comfort are inconflict with each other,
because curiosity will requireyou to move out of your comfort,
whereas comfort just allows youto stay where you are and and
not, you know, rock the boat.
But when somebody else in yourrelationship comes in and
they're rocking the boat, that'svery disconcerting and many
(28:10):
times you become the villain intheir story.
And so you have to just get to aspace and place where at first
it felt like, oh, they'repushing back, maybe I'm doing
something wrong, and I had torealize.
No, they're pushing back out oftheir own discomfort.
This does not mean it's thewrong decision for you.
Trust your inner knowing, trustyour intuition.
(28:32):
You know these are the stepsyou need to take for yourself.
But pushing back doesn't meandon't believe the old narratives
.
You're being selfish.
Stay true to this and also knowthat there's some people that
want to come along with this,but they're so used to you
showing up in a certain way thatthey're going to need a few
cues and reminders.
Others are just not going to beokay with it and they're going
(28:54):
to choose a narrative that fitsthem, staying where they are,
and you have to be able toaccept that and move forward
from that.
So that's a lot aboutboundaries, but that's been my
story and what I hear so manytimes from people when they're
navigating this boundariesjourney.
Mary (29:12):
There are so many things in there that I want to
highlight.
That was I mean, and I couldmake lots of bumper stickers
from some of the stuff you justsaid.
So the one thing and because youended with this the systems, so
the idea of system theory, thesystems that we're in like
homeostasis.
So I want to put an asterisk onthat for people that when they
(29:34):
start a journey towardincorporating some of these
boundaries and it is a continuumA boundary isn't like a hard
yes, a hard no.
It's a continuum.
You use different boundariesfor different situations, but
the people in your system willwant to put you back as the same
cog, that same wheel that wasturning the same way in their
(29:57):
system.
By changing, you are changingthe whole system, because you're
saying I don't want us tofunction in the way we've been
functioning, and you're exactlyright.
Sometimes you walk away fromsomething, from a relationship,
from a person's behavior,because you do not anymore want
to turn that same way.
(30:18):
You want to be a different cog.
You want to create a new worldfor yourself.
So I love that and the ideathat boundaries they take a lot
of self-knowledge, a lot ofbravery, all of those things,
but they're very freeing.
Yes, and you also talked, whenyou kind of launched into how
(30:39):
the boundaries happen for you.
You talked about curiosity,which is beautiful, because
that's really about allowingsomething uncomfortable to exist
and not to judge it and also totest the evidence.
I mean, we often get thesemessages when we're young and we
internalize them and so oftenwe're functioning based on a
(31:03):
belief that that's true.
And it's so interesting becausein a recent episode I talked
with another therapist about theprocess of therapy and I had
somebody reach out to me that Iknow personally and we were
discussing should she embarkupon therapy, and one of the
things she mentioned was someonethat was close to her didn't
(31:27):
really believe in it, that itwasn't like it's only for people
that are quote crazy or and soit's sort of this idea that you
use the word selfish, that wehear a word when we're young and
we internalize that thatbecomes a measurement for us and
(31:48):
we look at our behavior verycritically because we're
weighing.
Does this make me selfish, andI think we have to be able to
redefine what that word meanswhat that word means.
Melissa (32:09):
Yeah, yes, we do.
We do, and I think we have toalso look at where it was coming
from.
I was able to, at some point,recognize that that was coming
from a person who had no spaceto process her own emotions,
didn't have any idea what to dowith her own emotions, let alone
mine as a child, and so alsorecognizing that so many times
not saying that people can't beselfish that's not my point but
also understanding what theactual definition of it is
(32:33):
versus how it was being usedwith me, and that was my word
that I heard.
Like you said, we all havethose different words, but I
will tell you every single thingthat I do throughout my life,
even to this day, it comes up.
I'm first and foremost is thatselfish, or is that, or is this
just healthy for me?
My husband's like.
I never, never, ever can thinkof one moment in time.
(32:58):
We've been married for almost32 years and together for 34.
He's like.
I can't think of one time Iwould have called you selfish,
not one.
I'm like.
Well, that's good to know andit's good to hear that because
he's he's he would also tell meif something like he's not just
obviously he loves me and is forme, but he's we.
We have very honestconversations with each other
about you might want to thinkabout this that way, or you
(33:20):
might be tipping a little thatway and he's like never, ever,
ever.
Can I think of ever?
And my daughters are the sameway, like mom.
Just stop using that as abarometer.
It just doesn't exist withinyou to be knowingly that way and
we would tell you if it evershowed up.
So that was an interesting toget their feedback on that,
especially as my daughters grewup, you know.
(33:43):
But even within that, people canthink it and say it to you till
the cows come home.
If you don't believe it inyourself, it will continue to
come up.
Because you know we talk aboutsystems, the nervous system.
When you're starting to makethese adjustments, it's going to
push back because it definessafety as what it knows.
(34:03):
I always tell people it's goingto feel a little odd at first
because your system is not usedto you showing up that way.
You're going to have to retrainher on.
You know what this served me inthis season, thank you.
That's how my relationship withanxiety has been like.
Thank you for showing up inthat way that hypervigilance
kept me emotionally safe, but Idon't need that anymore.
(34:28):
I've moved beyond that, and solet's, let's tap it down a few
notches.
Cause again, going back towhere, if somebody responds a
certain way or we feeluncomfortable, it's going to
feel uncomfortable.
We've never shown up that waybefore, and I still have to stop
and tell myself this.
So I think that's reallyimportant too, to remember that
(34:50):
you're going to get somepushback in your own body even
and sometimes we mistake thatfor intuition and it's like, no,
that's not the same asintuition.
Your intuition got you on thispath of realizing this is not
healthy for intuition, and it'slike, no, that's not the same as
intuition.
Your intuition got you on thispath of realizing this is not
healthy for me.
And so it's overcoming thatfear and remembering too, like,
if this is fear-based, if thisis fear trying to keep me from
(35:12):
doing this, then I need to keeppushing forward.
I need to not let fear be thenarrative anymore.
I need to not let fear be thenarrative anymore.
Mary (35:20):
Yeah, that's a great point , because there's a system in
your own body too, and we thinkwe need to act a certain way to
stay under the radar.
And it goes back to the idea ofstaying small.
Right, it's safe, it feels safeto stay small, but then you're
not living your full life.
So that intuition, I think,think, is really really valuable
(35:43):
.
But it can be confusing.
And I think, to go back to twothings, it's the curiosity that,
wow, this feels reallyuncomfortable.
What is that emotion?
Is that fear?
Because fear is a liar often,yes, and I think we can test the
evidence.
So just because someone elsebelieves something is true and
that includes your parents orother adults that were important
(36:06):
to you growing up just becausesomebody else believes something
is true doesn't mean that it'strue for you or overall doesn't
mean it's even empirically true.
So I think, using those thingsas someone navigates, showing up
differently in their own life,those are tools that can be kind
(36:26):
of comforting.
It's not like you have to.
Just, you know, exist with thatdiscomfort, you know, befriend
it or look at it.
Like if my best friend Sallywas doing this thing would.
I think that was selfish orwould?
I think that that's somethingthat she shouldn't do and that
can also be helpful because,again, we really apply that
(36:50):
inner critic.
That's why it's inner.
We apply that much more toourselves than we do to other
people that we love.
Melissa (36:57):
We do.
And I think the other thingthat talk about is guilt is
going to come up for a while too.
When people have been used toyou showing up in a certain way
and if you've gotten thenarrative delivered to you that
blood is everything.
We don't abandon bloodrelatives no matter what, no
matter what's happening, there'sno, you know.
No, no, no, no, no.
And when you've come to a pointwhere you realize those
(37:17):
relationships and how they showup in my life are hurting me
more than they're helping me, ifyou've been in very codependent
, enmeshed relationshipsespecially, you're going to feel
some guilt for a while.
That guilt doesn't mean you'redoing anything wrong.
It's again.
It's those old narratives andthe adjustment of the system,
and I can honestly tell you thatafter a couple of years of
(37:41):
really being, I no longer feelguilt anymore.
I've passed the point where Ivery rarely and I'm very
comfortable showing up in a waythat's honoring to me, without
crossing my own boundaries andgetting me to into a space where
I am going back into old habitsor old ways.
Mary (38:03):
Well, and we've sort of used some words, like we use the
word selfish and I want to talka little bit about being human,
like we aren't perfect.
So I'm going to tell you rightnow there are times when I've
taken an extra cupcake and isyou know, like?
Is that selfish?
I don't know.
But I think we also have torecognize that we're allowed to
(38:25):
be imperfect and we need to makespace for that.
So here's a loaded question,melissa Are there such a thing
as bad emotions?
Melissa (38:45):
bad emotions.
No, no, I'm so adamant aboutthis.
I'm so adamant about thisbecause emotions are clues and
they let us know something needsto be tended to Now.
We can respond or react badlywithin those emotions, and I
think that's where the confusionlies, is we're told, especially
as women, that anger is a bademotion.
Anger can be very motivating todo things that need to be done,
(39:08):
to make changes.
It also is a clue to somethingwhat needs to be tended to here?
And how can I move this angerthrough me in a way that's
healthy, so it's no longerstored in my body?
And I use anger as an examplebecause that's something that
came up very real for me in away that's healthy, so it's no
longer stored in my body.
And I use anger as an examplebecause that's something that
came up very real for me in mytherapy.
I had a lot of stuffed angerfrom experiences I'd been
(39:28):
through that I'd never processedbecause I never felt safe to,
and so my therapist gave me some.
She's like all right, I want youto get some pillows, I want you
to find a.
I had a brick wall like outsideof my house, and she was like I
don't want you to swing thatpillow and work that out of your
body, yell and scream what youneed to yell and scream in terms
(39:52):
of the words or spaces orexperience that's connected to
it and let's move that out.
And that was a game changer,because I was allowed to process
it, move it through, moveforward from it.
It was just screaming for myattention to be moved through
and processed.
I had a right to be angry aboutthat, like that was a valid
(40:15):
emotion in that circumstance andso that was the other thing.
So I think that there areharder emotions and easier
emotions 1000%.
But the emotions are clues andI'm so passionate about people
knowing the difference.
It might feel bad, for sure,but the emotion in and of itself
(40:38):
is a clue that something needsto be addressed and walked out
and processed and moved through.
Mary (40:45):
Yeah, and I try to take the word bad kind of out of the
discussion.
So it feels uncomfortable, itfeels yucky, it feels cringy,
and you know, I think we canfeel any way we want.
We just can't do anything wewant you know Right, but that's
what?
Melissa (41:02):
yeah, exactly, it's that reaction to response that
comes out of it.
Yeah, that gets us in trouble.
Mary (41:08):
Yeah, and you know it's interesting that you bring up
anger, because I think that isthe emotion that I see women in
my work as a therapist.
I see women stuff that morethan anything else and it's
ironic to me that it's one ofthe only emotions that's
acceptable.
For men, yes, but for womenwe're crazy, we're hysterical
(41:31):
and that's sometimes it's theacting out of the anger.
But yeah, I think that that issomething that we tend to
internalize and there are oftenclients that I'll have that are
just kind of telling me aboutthese experiences they had in
life and I'm thinking where'sthe anger here?
And when I try to sort of movethem to that, I think then fear
(41:57):
comes up.
I think we as women have beenso conditioned to either deny
our anger or we believe thatwe're hysterical or bad if we
experience it that it makes usphysically sick sometimes.
Melissa (42:11):
A hundred percent.
It's funny because it tookabout three layers of removal,
because my therapist, the firsttime she brought it up with me,
she's like no, I feel sad, Ifeel irritated.
She's like irritated is just acostume word for anger.
I'm like okay, and so shestarted pointing out all these
(42:36):
costume words.
But we're dressing it up assomething else because we've
been been told such terriblethings about us being angry,
been told such terrible thingsabout us being angry.
You know, and you've done a lotin faith spaces too, there's
very misguided teachings aboutanger in faith spaces, and and
so it's like no, no, no, angeritself is not the problem, it's
what we've been taught and toldabout it.
And so therefore, yes, we stepit.
(42:58):
And then we wonder why theseexplosions are happening.
Something tips the cup and itjust has to come out of you,
because you've been storing itup rather than acknowledging it
when it comes up and recognizingwhere it comes from, unpacking
the true narratives, what's true, what's not true, and then like
, okay, how can I move throughthis in an effective way?
(43:19):
How can I use this to motivateme to make a necessary change in
a way that's healthy, in a waythat moves things forward and
not in this explosive dynamic,can show up showing their anger
in the same way.
And women have all like you,crazy, hysterical,
(43:41):
uncontrollable.
Where a man is like he's firedup, he's passionate, so that a
lot of that comes with thethings that we start teaching
little girls and little boys andchildren in general when
they're very young.
We have to be very mindful ofthis and it's so embedded in the
culture that, even if you growup in a home with parents that
are very mindful of this, andit's so embedded in the culture
that, even if you grow up in ahome with parents that are very
(44:01):
mindful of this, it's so presentin everyday life, in the
classroom, in the workspace, inyour social places that you are,
that there's just always goingto be unless we can get this
steered in the right directionsome places where it's got to be
, impact and process, becauseyou're going to bump into it
somewhere, and I think it's thesame for men with the emotion of
(44:27):
sadness, like those thousandpercent.
Yeah, I've had men on my showand it's for women, but a couple
of men specifically ConstantineMaroon, my friend, comes up to
mind to talk about.
Like guys, we need to take careof ourselves and tend to our
emotions too, and it's killingus because we're carrying around
this trope of toxic masculinityand it's taking us out and it's
(44:50):
causing harmful behaviors andit's causing harm to our health.
So these scripts are harmful toall sides of us.
If we could start changing thenarrative on that, everybody
wins.
Mary (45:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm going to pull us backfull circle to kind of tie all
this up and talk to me a littlebit and tell us what your
self-care looks like now fromeverything you've learned.
How do you define that foryourself?
Melissa (45:20):
I've got basic practices that I know help me.
Every day I move my body.
Every day I journal in someform, and sometimes it's writing
down the emotions I'm feelingto help me know what I'm going
to need that day.
What do I need?
More quiet.
How is my schedule looking?
Do I feel prepared for it?
(45:40):
Are there some things that Ineed to pull back on?
I look at all of that, so Ijournal, look at my calendar,
meet myself where I'm at.
Did I not sleep well?
Did I sleep great?
Do I have lots of energy?
No, and so how can I preparemyself in that moment for that?
But knowing the movement isalways there, the journaling is
always there in some form.
Sometimes I'll verbal journal.
(46:01):
If I'm really there's a lotgoing on.
It's hard to get it all inwords on paper.
I will just turn on my phoneand record myself.
Then I go back and listen to itand take notes on the things
that I think I really need tounpack more.
But that allows a reallyunedited, just blah, because I
am an external processor, sosometimes I will implement that
(46:24):
throughout the week.
I've got yoga and Pilates andmindful meditations like 15
minutes of just mindfullywalking, being present in the
moment, paying attention to mybreath.
I probably do that two or threetimes a week, but daily I move
my body in some way.
Every day the journaling and Ireally pay attention to how I
(46:44):
fuel my body.
Am I getting enough protein?
Have I eaten yet?
I start the morning with acombination of lemon water and
ginger tea to just get my systemset right before I have my
coffee.
This didn't just come upovernight.
I had to sit and get presentwith myself and I used to start
the day every day of just namingmy emotions and then lining out
(47:06):
what I needed.
From there I'm finding now I'ma little more in tune to that.
I don't necessarily have to getthat specific and I've gotten
familiar with trying differentthings over time.
I know I need to do that.
I'm moving my body's anon-negotiable.
Whether it's a hit workout oryoga or lifting weights,
whatever that is that day, or awalk, I try to get some steps in
every day.
Get outside, like right now.
(47:28):
I live in Fresno, california.
The orange blossoms areblooming, you can step outside
and it just smells beautiful,and that's not always the case
here in the Central Valley allthe time, but right now it does.
So even if I have a superpacked day with meetings and
recordings, I will step outsidefor five to 15 minutes and just
take in the fresh air.
(47:49):
So those are the things thathelp me.
Also, if I'm in a really busyseason, just 10 minutes of quiet
, nothing.
I'm not meditating, I'm notreading, there's no music,
there's nothing.
It's just quiet.
And we underestimate the powerof just stillness and quiet,
partly because sometimes wedon't like what comes up within
it.
I used to not be a fan of thisbecause all of the stuff that I
(48:13):
hadn't been moving through andprocessing was bubbling up when
I gave myself a minute to giveit room to percolate to the top.
Now this is a very refreshingactivity for me and I tend to
come out of that with new ideas,new thoughts.
Also, same way when I'm doingmy physical workouts, many times
as I'm moving things through mybody, because it's not only
(48:37):
good for me physically, it'sgood for me mentally and
emotionally.
It's allowing me to move anytensions out, move any stressors
out, move any toxins out, andthen I'll get some of my
freshest, best ideas when I'm inthe middle of a rigorous
workout and I'm like I keep ajournal close by so I can jot
them down so I don't forget themlater.
So I would say, if you'relooking for basics, move your
(48:58):
body, smell some fresh air, 10minutes of quiet, get enough
water and fuel your body in away that's going to be
nourishing to you.
And this is not restrictivediets, this is not eliminating
things, just being mindful offueling my body in a way that
helps me move.
Well, enjoy the piece of cake.
You know these things need tobe a lifestyle, not a
(49:19):
restriction, but recognize thosethings that feel your body and
help you to feel well, that's abeautiful list and I hope people
took notes on that.
Mary (49:31):
But I think you know, self-care dovetails a lot with
self-awareness Because, asyou're saying, when you're doing
these things, that are alifestyle change and it's also
intentional.
So, self-awareness andintention, making it a routine,
it's truly a lifestyle.
So, can you consider wine withyour girlfriend?
Self-care, sure, but that'smore like a treat.
Melissa (49:54):
Self-care is health care.
I say that and I'm like so makesure your self-care and it's
not that.
Mary (50:23):
So you gave a really great list and you have so many
things that you offer the world.
I know on your website there'sa book Embracing Layers
Unapologetically, but talk alittle about what else you offer
and where people can find you.
Melissa (50:39):
Yes, thank you so much for that.
Go to embracinglayerscom andit's all there Our podcast
episodes, our weekly YouTubepanels that I do with other
women talking about these topics, our book Embracing Layers.
Unapologetically, the big thingthat I'm doing now that I
wasn't doing when I firststarted is I'm doing speaking
(50:59):
engagements, and so if you wantme to come talk to you about
this feel framework, that Iwasn't doing when I first
started is I'm doing.
I'm doing speaking engagements,and so if you want to me to
come talk to you about this feelframework that I utilize, that
helps me stay on track and thathelps other women stay on track
and invites women collectivelyinto the conversation.
The beauty of the book is Ireally encourage women to do
this in a book club.
(51:19):
Do this walk together, startnaming activities that nourish
you together, start naming whoyou are and identifying your
character traits together,because you can hold each other
accountable for that and notfeel alone as you kind of start
unpacking these things thatmaybe you haven't thought about
in a long time, that are a coretenant of aligning your calendar
(51:43):
and activities with your valuesand your why and your
expectations out of your life,and so much a part of that so I
can talk to you about that inperson.
Now, with the field framework,we can talk about the whole
framework or individual parts ofit.
There's some groups like I'mspeaking at a group in a couple
of weeks down in Pasadena I'mgonna do the full framework to
start the day, but then I'mhaving a round table on just
(52:06):
boundaries later that day.
So for those of you that thisis the one that really gets you,
we're gonna have a round tablespecifically about that so I can
speak to you in person.
And then I'm in the process ofcreating online courses that are
going to be available I hope,by this summer online where you
can get the full framework oryou can get individual
(52:26):
frameworks, and that gives yousomething to have on hand,
especially for those women'snetworking groups or businesses,
to have on hand Anytime a newgroup circulates through.
You.
Have it with you on hand.
I can come back every time ifyou want me to, but it's going
to be a better deal for youeconomically if you get the
(52:47):
online course and just have thatand it's evergreen content.
So, yeah, I'd love to come talkto you, but I'd also listen to
our podcasts and our panels.
These women have so manyamazing stories and resources
for you and those are all on ourwebpage, on our resources page,
that you can access and findthat thing that works for you.
(53:08):
I tell women all the time if youcome to our platform, you're
going to find at least onepodcast, guest or panel that
hits with you, because I bringin women from all over the world
, all backgrounds in life, allethnicities, faith spaces,
socioeconomic spaces,relationship spaces, to help
this be a welcoming space forwomen to feel safe, seen, heard,
(53:30):
known in this space, and so wealso have a sub stack as well
and that's all.
Like I said, go toembracingleaderscom and our sub
stack is where we drop our blogsand our newsletters, and we're
also starting to bring back ourpast guests that have books now
and we're bringing them back forSubstack Live so you can hear
about their books and get accessto that.
(53:51):
So the beauty of mine is likeit's my voice and framework, but
it's all of these hundreds ofwomen and their voices and their
resources that we've broughttogether here to support women
in this journey and rememberingthat you are worth valuing and
take care of and prioritizing,not because of what you do,
because of who you are.
Mary (54:12):
That's really beautiful.
That's a great way to sum allof this up and so many good
things that you offer, so I willdefinitely include your website
in my show notes and thank youso much for talking with me
today.
This has been delightful.
Melissa (54:26):
Thank you so much, mary .
I can't wait to have you onmine.
I love what you're doing here.
The more of us doing this, thebetter, because that's how we
reach women with this messageand invite them into this
journey with us, and we can dothis together.
This is how we changenarratives and make this world a
safe place for women to live inas their authentic selves.
Mary (54:49):
Yeah, bringing women together is so important and I
know it's part of both of ourmessages, and one of the best
things about this podcast is thelisteners and the community
that we're creating.
So I love hearing from you,whether it's to respond to an
idea from an episode, to give asuggestion or simply to let me
know how an episode affected you.
So please consider leaving areview so others can more easily
(55:12):
find me and follow the show, soyou don't miss a thing.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Thank you.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
So often, women seem to take onthe role of caretaker such a
simple word to encompass so manydifferent behaviors, thoughts
(00:49):
and feelings.
We often talk on this showabout how both women and men are
socialized to fill certainroles in relationships, but
there are also brain differencesbetween genders and or sexes
that contribute to how weconnect.
This is why I so often refer toour essential nature.
I mean I did a whole episode onit.
Essential nature is thatcombination of nature and
(01:12):
nurture that is unique to eachone of us.
Anyway, often being a caretakercan mean that we prioritize the
needs of others before our own.
When we do add our own needs tothe list of priorities, we can
initially feel guilty or evenunsure of how to take care of
ourselves.
Does self-care mean monthlypedicures or wine with our
(01:33):
girlfriends every so often?
Well, yeah, but no, not totally.
Self-care, almost 100% of thetime, includes setting
boundaries.
I often work on boundaries withmy clients, but even that term
can lead to a sense of guilt oruncertainty of how they're
supposed to do that.
The word boundaries can feel sofinal and non-negotiable, and
(01:57):
that seems to be the antithesisof caring for others.
Right, but our care equationneeds to include ourselves and
teaser.
My guest today will give asobering example of what can
happen when we put our own needsat the bottom of the list.
My guest today is Melissa Crook.
Today we're going to explorethe concept of self-care and
(02:17):
boundaries and, because we oftenterm the emotions we experience
as we navigate, learning theselife skills as bad, we're going
to throw that in too.
Melissa's mission is tonormalize conversations for
women surrounding self-care,emotional health, boundaries and
embracing all of our beautifuland complex layers.
(02:37):
She is aware and sensitive tobarriers that women face,
particularly our sisters inother marginalized communities.
Through her own podcast, theFeel Podcast, as well as other
endeavors, she creates a safespace for everyone by hosting
open conversations to support,learn and grow.
It's so cool that many of thethemes I explore here are
(02:59):
reflected in the stories andexperiences of her guests on her
podcast.
Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, melissa.
Melissa (03:08):
Thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here, Mary.
We talked before about all ofthe ways we cross over and the
importance of us doing this workand supporting and showing up
women and giving them a voiceand helping them feel supported
in this.
Mary (03:24):
Yeah, it's so funny because as soon as we got on
this call and we had not metbefore, that energy you have, I
mean, I think we both hit kindof that same energy level.
So, yes, I'm really excited tojump in and kind of explore all
of this with you.
So I would love if you wouldstart by sharing the experience
you had when you turned 50 thatreally set you on this path to
(03:47):
use your work to empower women.
Melissa (03:50):
Yeah, I mean unfortunately and fortunately I
mean because it set me on thispath, but it's a story that's
not unfamiliar to women.
And so I was turning 50 themonth of September in 2019.
My husband works in higher edadministration in colleges.
We've lived all over thecountry.
We were just in the beginningof our latest move to Lubbock,
(04:14):
texas, where he was going to beworking for Texas Tech
University System, and I wasgoing to be once again looking
for a job but I've become prettyadaptable at that.
But our girls, our daughterswomen they're not girls anymore.
We're all basically out of thehouse.
Our oldest had just gottenmarried the previous spring.
(04:35):
Our two others were in college,one was about to graduate, the
other one was in the middle ofit and so we were making this
move on our own for the firsttime.
So I thought, oh, this is goingto be easy, I don't have to
find schools, I don't have tofind activities and you know,
and just all of the adjustmentsthat come with moving children
(04:56):
and families and all of that.
And instead, what happened wasit's like my nervous system was
like all right, you've got thetime and space.
It's time for you to payattention to the messages we're
sending to you.
And so we were still in a hotel.
We had not moved into our houseyet, it had just the deal had
just closed and I came back froma morning workout walk and
(05:23):
could not get my system tosettle.
Took a shower, did all thenormal things that normally
settle my system and instead myheart rate started racing and my
blood pressure.
I could just feel I waslightheaded and I thought it was
having a heart attack.
Go downstairs to the hotellobby.
I'm like hi, sorry to botheryou, I think I might be having a
(05:46):
heart attack.
And the poor kid was probably acollege student at tech, at the
front desk, his eyes wide open,and but there's this whole like
paperwork.
I had to sign to call anambulance when my husband's
office was less than fiveminutes away from the hotel, and
so I just called him.
I'm like I'm so sorry to botheryou, but I think I'm having a
heart attack and I need to getto the emergency room.
(06:07):
He was like I don't even thinkhe said goodbye, he was just out
the door and there before.
An ambulance could have gottenthere anyway, and so I don't
worry about it.
My husband's coming and thispoor kid's watching, like
waiting for me to collapse inthe, you know, right there in
front of him, in front of Godand everyone.
And so my husband gets there,we get to the ER.
Mind you, we have been in townfor maybe 10 days, like you
(06:30):
don't even know for sure wherethe ER is.
So he asked people in hisoffice and of course they're
panicked because he's just movedhere and his wife's, you know,
having this medical emergency.
So we, I get in there and theytake my I mean, my blood
pressure and heart rate werejust through the roof.
They're like, okay, we'regetting you back right now.
Like there wasn't even, therewas no sitting in the in the
(06:53):
room and and they ran a bunch oftests and got me settled and
over time, my blood pressuresettled, my heart rate settled
and after they said, you know,they checked my heart.
They're like everything lookshealthy.
We're going to send you to thiscardiologist just to make sure.
But clearly something washappening here and so we want to
just make sure we cover all thebases.
(07:13):
So they did full like chestx-ray, all this stuff.
I was there for probably fouror five hours, wow, and and and
then, once everything settled,they released me.
Well, not even a week later,same scenario over again.
I was at the house, this timewaiting for our furniture to be
(07:33):
delivered, and here come thesymptoms again.
And there was an additionalsymptom where my bladder just
dumped Like I just was just like, well, that was unfortunate.
So I'm like trying to find myclothes to change.
But also the same othersymptoms are happening and I was
finding the 10, you know, thiswas like maybe five, six days
(07:57):
later.
So I call my husband again.
He's like we better get youback there this time to check
every organ, every system.
I'd been to the cardiologistalready that week and he's like
your heart health is great, likeyou'd have to have a really
catastrophic event for yourheart to not be healthy.
Your heart is very healthybecause I've always moved my
whole life, like I've been arunner and all those things.
(08:19):
So an ER nurse in that second goaround slipped.
He's like you're not going tohear about this doctor on your
insurance plan.
I know someone who I think canhelp you, is a little more
non-traditional, but I think hemight be able to help you
unravel this puzzle and heslipped me on a ripped off piece
of envelope this guy's name andnumber.
(08:40):
We were at a certain hospitalthat wanted you to only tell
them about the doctors in theirsystem and he didn't want to get
in trouble.
Then he's like I think thisperson might help you.
So I was like so I left likeboth relieved that all my organs
and everything looks great.
I was wearing like a heartmonitor for a month to make sure
they're like watching for anylike disruptions or arrhythmias,
(09:02):
all those things.
All that came back fine, likedisruptions or arrhythmias, all
those things.
All that came back fine.
And so I go to this doctor andwe started unraveling.
Yes, you're in perimenopause.
Yes, there's some hormonalthings going on.
But he's like so tell me aboutyour background, you know, tell
me about your mental healthjourney, tell me.
And we started unravelingthings and he's like I think
(09:24):
there's a lot of unprocessedthings in your body that are
asking for attention.
Meantime, my husband, almostsimultaneously that day.
He's like listen, babe, I'vebeen watching you walk around
with your good friend, anxiety,our entire relationship, and we
were yeah, at this point we'dbeen together for 27, 28 years.
(09:45):
And he's like I think it's timeto.
There's no excuses, there'snobody else to take care of and
I had been taking care of peoplesince I was 10 years old.
I've grew up in a veryemotionally chaotic home and
there was a lot asked of me at avery early age, really starting
at six years old and thenmagnified again at 10 and then
(10:07):
beyond.
So literally had been learnedthe narrative that my value and
my importance, and I receivedaffirmations for how I showed up
for other people, taking careof them well, supporting them
well, not having a lot of needsof my own.
If I did have needs, I was toldI was selfish for having those
(10:28):
needs, and I started hearingthat narrative from my own
mother when I was in elementaryschool.
So I've been carrying all ofthat around with me, just the
narrative plus the narratives wejust get as women.
And I had prioritized.
I had very enmeshed andcodependent relationships and so
(10:50):
got into therapy and I wasfortunate to find a therapist
that changed my life.
It was my third round oftherapy over my 50-year life and
this time it was like nope, Ican't just skim the surface here
, it's time to dig in.
And that began my journey ofunpacking all the unprocessed
trauma and emotions andrecognizing and naming the
enmeshed and codependenttendencies in my relationships
(11:13):
and rethinking and relearninghow to show up first for myself
and then for others in a waythat was healthy for me and not
to my detriment.
Mary (11:27):
That is such a compelling story and it's so fascinating
and I have said this before,definitely on this show that I
think life has to get a littlemore aggressive as we go to
bring things to our attention.
And one of the things that I'velearned in 35 years as a
(11:47):
therapist, because when I wastrained it was very different
and I started to recognize that,first in my clients and then
you know, when we hit menopausethis cascade of hormonal changes
happens, which I think opensthe door and also we are an
accumulation of our experiences.
But I started to recognize thatthe work of therapy is not from
(12:09):
the neck up, that we are awhole being, and so I think the
compelling part of this is thatyour body was showing you
physically that it neededattention, emotionally and
mentally.
Melissa (12:25):
Yeah, she was screaming at me.
I think we misterm thissometimes, as women especially,
we get into those middle ageyears where it's kind of the
perfect storm and I know so manywomen that have gone through
this and are going through thiswhere our body is finally like I
need attention and we frame itas our body failing us.
No, she's just asking forattention.
She's giving us clues, she'sletting us know that things need
(12:49):
to be adjusted, need to beaddressed, need to be paid
attention to.
There's no room to stuffanymore.
These things are overflowingout of us and it's time to get
serious about our own wellbeingand quit believing the lie that
it's selfish.
Mary (13:05):
Exactly exactly.
And you know it's funny as youwere telling your story, because
we talked about this a littlebefore I hit record.
In your story you said thatwhen you had this initial kind
of orchestra of all thesesymptoms twice you said to
people when you were gettinghelp I'm sorry, but yes, would
(13:26):
most people who think they'rehaving a heart attack and I
don't want to insert the wordmale in there, but would most
people be like yo, dude, I needhelp?
And we're even in thosesituations sort of gently easing
our way in, like raising ourhand, like excuse me, but I
think I might be dying.
Melissa (13:40):
Yes, yes, and I, you and I, and I think it's so
important.
This is something I work withwomen on now, especially young
women going out in the worldfrom college and try to train it
out of them, because my husbandand I had an exercise that we
did and it's something he hasbeen talking to me about for
years.
That drives him crazy.
He's like quit apologizing foreverything.
(14:02):
You apologize for the ant thatcrossed the street and got ant
as in bug, not ant as in a human.
The ant crossing the streetthat gets run over by the car.
I want you to understand.
You are not responsible for thewell-being of everything in the
world.
And so I talked to my therapistabout this.
This was four years ago nowthat I'd gotten into therapy a
little bit and she's like yep,okay.
(14:23):
So one time she kind of tagteamed with my husband, without
ever meeting him.
But she's like you tell Bradythat every time you say sorry,
he's got to come up withsomething to catch it, and he
was very good at catching it,like he didn't have to practice
this.
He was so excited that I wasfinally willing to to do this.
And so every time I started asentence with I'm sorry.
(14:46):
He's like stop, I want you toreframe that sentence.
And he I would reframe thesentence to what was actually
true and take the I'm sorry.
And it took a good year to yearand a half of him being on this
with me daily, where I canhonestly say I rarely have to be
stopped now in that.
(15:07):
But it took very intentionaland he was very committed to
this because it was so ingrained.
So many times he would stop me.
I didn't even know I had saidit, it was just subconsciously
pouring out of me.
It was that ingrained and I seethis with women all the time.
Mary (15:24):
Absolutely, and it is so ingrained that it is almost
automatic.
And I do want to acknowledgethat, whatever we develop or
wherever we find ourselves, atthe point when we realize, okay,
I need to bring somebody inhere to help me through this, we
have likely done what we'vedone to survive.
(15:46):
So I don't want to downplaythat.
There are times where peoplehad an environment where they
needed to stay small to be safe100%, and that doesn't need to
be your story going forward, andI really think that's what the
message is that it's okay to bescared, but if you can
cognitively assess and know,okay, I'm safe in this space,
(16:09):
that's where the work can happen, which makes me now want to
segue to your podcast, the FeelPodcast Finding Empowerment,
embracing Layers.
So your experiences really gaverise to starting to give a
voice to this and using it tohelp other people.
Melissa (16:26):
It.
Did you talk about how theuniverse works?
I've been in therapy for a yearand a half and it was my
husband's birthday.
It was on March 1st 2021.
I'll never forget it.
And he was doing his own work aswell, like he saw me get in
about six months later hestarted doing his own work, with
his own therapist, to unpackhis stuff and it was like no,
it's time to get serious aboutthese things and be as healthy
(16:47):
as we should be.
So he wanted to do a dream wallthat day.
It was a book he was reading atthe time, had that as a
suggestion, so part of hisbirthday.
He always takes his birthdayoff as a day off.
And we got back from we'd goneto a movie and had lunch and
he's like will you do this dreamwall with me this afternoon?
I was like sure, just tell mewhat to do.
(17:08):
And so we got a bunch of stickynotes and we went into one of
our spared bedrooms there, wentin there and just started doing
the activities in the streamwall.
And through this dream wallcame this idea wait a minute.
I've had these experiences.
I know hundreds of women thathave had it show up for them in
(17:30):
different ways.
I'd listened to a lot ofpodcasts during COVID and
started thinking I think I coulddo this and I know a couple of
people who can help me with thetechnical side of it.
And all of a sudden, at the endof the day, it was like can
help me with the technical sideof it and I, all of a sudden, at
the end of the day, it was likeI think I'm going to start a
(17:50):
podcast and my husband's likeokay.
So I talked to those couple ofpeople.
One was a young woman that Ihad been mentoring since her
sophomore year of college.
She knew how to edit podcastsfrom her major and then my
middle daughter's collegeroommate was a marketing
background.
She knew how to start websites,she knew how to start social
media platforms, and they were2020 college grads still looking
for jobs and they neededexperience.
(18:11):
So I reached out to Valenciaand, abby, I'm like, would you
be interested in helping me withthis?
And we had our first meeting inMay of 2021.
And we launched with our firstepisode in July and I just
started with women.
I knew like I've lived all overthe country and just like,
would you be willing to havethese conversations with me and
(18:31):
we lined out our talking pointsand it was the framework that
myself and my daughters and myhusband and my son-in-law had,
who had all collectively andseparately been doing our own
work, found this framework thatwas really working for us and
I'm like I think this frameworkcan support other women in this
journey and help them get on atrack that is authentic to who
(18:55):
they are, that is aligned withwho they are and will help them
as they go through seasons inlife and not get to these points
I was getting.
I'm like too many of us arecrashing and burning and having
these serious outcomes to getour attention.
Let's get this framework in thehands of these women and girls
when they're young, when they're16, 17, 18, 21, 22.
(19:17):
And then they've got it tocarry them through their whole
lives.
But let's dispel thesenarratives and these myths about
topics we've been told not totalk about and start talking
about them and creating safespaces for them.
And the embracing layers piecefor me even though that's a
talking point in the podcastthat comes at the end when I'm
(19:38):
working with people in person,it's one of the first things we
address, because you willprioritize what you value.
The embracing layers piece is amajor component.
And then that when youunderstand that, then we can.
You'll value yourself enough toprioritize that self-care and
see that gosh, when I fill myown cup I am not only serving
(20:01):
myself but everyone that I am incontact with.
A relationship working for theyget the healthiest, most
authentic, refreshed version ofme, instead of the tired,
tattered, wore out, feeling likea martyr.
Irritable version of me becauseI'm just showing up everywhere
all the time for all the people,because I'm sure that's what's
(20:21):
necessary to be valuable in theworld, because that's the
narrative I was sold.
Mary (20:26):
I love that idea of embracing the layers, because we
do have parts of us that we'reembarrassed of or we wish
weren't true and you know, a lotof that is physical as our
bodies change.
But you know, we can.
We think about these thingswe've done or said or ways of
being, and we feel cringy, but Ifeel like we have so much more
(20:48):
grace that we give to otherpeople.
Melissa (20:51):
Yes, 100 percent, and that was the thing that really
started with.
And this again, kudos to mytherapist.
She really helped me impactthis.
But it starts with you knowyour own self-talk and you
really reframe it Like, would Isay that to my daughter, would I
say that to my best friend,would I say that to my coworker,
my sister, you know whoever?
(21:12):
It is Okay, then I need to notbe saying it to myself.
If I wouldn't say it to them,then let's make sure I'm not
saying it to myself.
So it starts with those simple,those little critical things
that come up in our heads thatare so again, like the I'm sorry
piece.
They're so subconsciouslyingrained we don't even hardly
notice them until someone asksus to pay attention.
(21:34):
So I spent a week in therapy,one week journaling and
documenting these things and itreally brought me into my
present self and helped me tostop disassociating.
And then she challenged me withbeing curious rather than
judgmental and you also heardthat on Ted Lasso that year, so
(21:55):
maybe she got it from him.
But when you're able toapproach, because I definitely
had chapters and seasons in mylife that I had a lot of shame
around, and I had a lot of shamearound, not only because of how
I felt how other people in mylife and family don't like to
say made me feel, becausefeelings of choice, but things
they said to me that I reallyembodied and were buried deep
(22:18):
inside me.
I don't have to love all thelayers, but I need to get to an
acknowledgement point, and sothe curiosity, rather than
judgment, allowed me to go backand meet myself in that moment,
meet my 18-year-old self and belike you know what, given all
that you were taught and theenvironment that you lived in,
it's no small wonder you endedup in this relationship, that
(22:41):
you made these choices, smallwonder you ended up in this
relationship, that you madethese choices.
It doesn't mean I loved them,but I could see them.
I could approach it withempathy and curiosity and
understanding, so that I was nolonger had shame around them.
I was no longer trying to keepparts of my life secret from
other people because I wasafraid of how disappointed they
would be, that it would shatterthe image they had of me, and
(23:05):
stopped worrying about that.
When I was able to do that, itwas like it lifted a whole
weight off my shoulders and itthen opened up my mind to being
curious rather than judgmentalabout other people's stories.
So when so-and-so reacts in avery defensive or hostile way to
me, I was like no, you know,they may have had a bumpy start
(23:27):
to their day, or I wonder ifsomething's going on in their
life and stopped seeing it as areflection of me and started
seeing that, being able toseparate the two and not the and
listen, I still struggle withthis, I still get triggered by
this, but I've got enoughresources.
I'm able to stop and be mindfulin the moment.
I'm like let's name what's trueversus an old narrative that's
(23:51):
trying to creep up and betreated as truth.
I'm able to be mindful of thatin the moment.
So that getting curious ratherthan judgmental with your layers
, so you can acknowledge themand understand and be empathetic
to them Again, don't have tolove them, don't want to repeat
them, but you remove the shameand you get that layer of shame
(24:11):
and fear and secrecy out of theway.
And then, all of a sudden,you're like you know what I
first and foremost owe it tomyself and to those I'm in
relationship with to take careof myself well.
So everyone gets the healthiest, authentic version of me,
starting with me.
And also I need to be mindful ofthe voices that I'm allowing
(24:36):
into my space, that I amallowing to pour into me, and
that really sent me on theboundaries journey.
And I have to give my oldestdaughter credit.
She really brought theboundaries idea home from an
internship she did in collegeand then her younger sisters did
that internship as well.
She brought that idea into ourhome and so we were able to
(24:57):
start exploring the boundariespiece even before the healthy
boundaries and how wecommunicate with each other and
when you know when we're goingto stop a conversation and walk
out of a room because it feelslike it's moving into an
emotional space where we're nolonger going to be able to make
progress.
I mean, that idea was broughtinto us a couple of years
earlier, but it came apart ofthis whole bigger piece of who
(25:19):
am I allowing to pour into me.
And I try to be very adamantabout the fact that boundaries
are not about someone else'sbehavior.
They're about your own choicesand your behavior.
So you communicate those thingswith I statements.
It's like listen, if thishappens, then I'm going to try
to steer the conversation in thewrong direction, or I'm going
(25:40):
to ask that we take a timeout.
Or I'm going to leave the roomin the wrong direction, or I'm
going to ask that we take atimeout or I'm going to leave
the room.
You decide what you need to do.
But just know that this is aline in the sand for me and this
is something that reallyviolates the healthy spaces
within me, and so I'm no longergoing to be able to stay in
spaces where this is happening.
It can also happen in.
(26:00):
I'm no longer going to be ableto stay at work till eight
o'clock at night.
If you ask that of me, justknow that that's something I'm
going to be saying no to,because I need more time at home
with my family or whatever thecase may be.
And the hard part it's one thingto set the boundaries.
It's another thing tocommunicate them, because there
(26:21):
are many people in your life,especially if you've got
enmeshed codependent, trauma,bond relationships they don't
want to hear that.
They like the way you've beenshowing up.
It supports them, staying inthat space and doesn't ask for
any questioning or any thoughtabout maybe something isn't
healthy here.
So there are some people that Ilove from afar now.
(26:41):
So there are some people that Ilove from afar now in my family
, and it was just that this isno longer behavior that I can
put my nervous system into theline of fire up.
I have some very somaticresponses and reactions and I
started noticing that.
I started noticing there werecertain faces and people that I
(27:03):
would get about 30, 35 minutesout from the time I was going to
be encountered with them and Ifelt my body seizing up and my
stomach getting queasy and Istarted noticing, or even just
getting a phone call from them,and what that brought up.
I'm like, oh, and realizing it'snot selfish to set boundaries
and protect my own health, andpeople that are truly in this
(27:28):
for me and want me to be wellaren't going to want me to do
that either, and so they willsupport that, whatever that
looks like.
And there are others that justit doesn't mean they don't love
you, but they just haven't donethe work themselves or they're
scared to.
I mean, it's real easy to staycomfortable and stay in.
(27:48):
Curiosity and comfort are inconflict with each other,
because curiosity will requireyou to move out of your comfort,
whereas comfort just allows youto stay where you are and and
not, you know, rock the boat.
But when somebody else in yourrelationship comes in and
they're rocking the boat, that'svery disconcerting and many
(28:10):
times you become the villain intheir story.
And so you have to just get to aspace and place where at first
it felt like, oh, they'repushing back, maybe I'm doing
something wrong, and I had torealize.
No, they're pushing back out oftheir own discomfort.
This does not mean it's thewrong decision for you.
Trust your inner knowing, trustyour intuition.
(28:32):
You know these are the stepsyou need to take for yourself.
But pushing back doesn't meandon't believe the old narratives
.
You're being selfish.
Stay true to this and also knowthat there's some people that
want to come along with this,but they're so used to you
showing up in a certain way thatthey're going to need a few
cues and reminders.
Others are just not going to beokay with it and they're going
(28:54):
to choose a narrative that fitsthem, staying where they are,
and you have to be able toaccept that and move forward
from that.
So that's a lot aboutboundaries, but that's been my
story and what I hear so manytimes from people when they're
navigating this boundariesjourney.
Mary (29:12):
There are so many things in there that I want to
highlight.
That was I mean, and I couldmake lots of bumper stickers
from some of the stuff you justsaid.
So the one thing and because youended with this the systems, so
the idea of system theory, thesystems that we're in like
homeostasis.
So I want to put an asterisk onthat for people that when they
(29:34):
start a journey towardincorporating some of these
boundaries and it is a continuumA boundary isn't like a hard
yes, a hard no.
It's a continuum.
You use different boundariesfor different situations, but
the people in your system willwant to put you back as the same
cog, that same wheel that wasturning the same way in their
(29:57):
system.
By changing, you are changingthe whole system, because you're
saying I don't want us tofunction in the way we've been
functioning, and you're exactlyright.
Sometimes you walk away fromsomething, from a relationship,
from a person's behavior,because you do not anymore want
to turn that same way.
(30:18):
You want to be a different cog.
You want to create a new worldfor yourself.
So I love that and the ideathat boundaries they take a lot
of self-knowledge, a lot ofbravery, all of those things,
but they're very freeing.
Yes, and you also talked, whenyou kind of launched into how
(30:39):
the boundaries happen for you.
You talked about curiosity,which is beautiful, because
that's really about allowingsomething uncomfortable to exist
and not to judge it and also totest the evidence.
I mean, we often get thesemessages when we're young and we
internalize them and so oftenwe're functioning based on a
(31:03):
belief that that's true.
And it's so interesting becausein a recent episode I talked
with another therapist about theprocess of therapy and I had
somebody reach out to me that Iknow personally and we were
discussing should she embarkupon therapy, and one of the
things she mentioned was someonethat was close to her didn't
(31:27):
really believe in it, that itwasn't like it's only for people
that are quote crazy or and soit's sort of this idea that you
use the word selfish, that wehear a word when we're young and
we internalize that thatbecomes a measurement for us and
(31:48):
we look at our behavior verycritically because we're
weighing.
Does this make me selfish, andI think we have to be able to
redefine what that word meanswhat that word means.
Melissa (32:09):
Yeah, yes, we do.
We do, and I think we have toalso look at where it was coming
from.
I was able to, at some point,recognize that that was coming
from a person who had no spaceto process her own emotions,
didn't have any idea what to dowith her own emotions, let alone
mine as a child, and so alsorecognizing that so many times
not saying that people can't beselfish that's not my point but
also understanding what theactual definition of it is
(32:33):
versus how it was being usedwith me, and that was my word
that I heard.
Like you said, we all havethose different words, but I
will tell you every single thingthat I do throughout my life,
even to this day, it comes up.
I'm first and foremost is thatselfish, or is that, or is this
just healthy for me?
My husband's like.
I never, never, ever can thinkof one moment in time.
(32:58):
We've been married for almost32 years and together for 34.
He's like.
I can't think of one time Iwould have called you selfish,
not one.
I'm like.
Well, that's good to know andit's good to hear that because
he's he's he would also tell meif something like he's not just
obviously he loves me and is forme, but he's we.
We have very honestconversations with each other
about you might want to thinkabout this that way, or you
(33:20):
might be tipping a little thatway and he's like never, ever,
ever.
Can I think of ever?
And my daughters are the sameway, like mom.
Just stop using that as abarometer.
It just doesn't exist withinyou to be knowingly that way and
we would tell you if it evershowed up.
So that was an interesting toget their feedback on that,
especially as my daughters grewup, you know.
(33:43):
But even within that, people canthink it and say it to you till
the cows come home.
If you don't believe it inyourself, it will continue to
come up.
Because you know we talk aboutsystems, the nervous system.
When you're starting to makethese adjustments, it's going to
push back because it definessafety as what it knows.
(34:03):
I always tell people it's goingto feel a little odd at first
because your system is not usedto you showing up that way.
You're going to have to retrainher on.
You know what this served me inthis season, thank you.
That's how my relationship withanxiety has been like.
Thank you for showing up inthat way that hypervigilance
kept me emotionally safe, but Idon't need that anymore.
(34:28):
I've moved beyond that, and solet's, let's tap it down a few
notches.
Cause again, going back towhere, if somebody responds a
certain way or we feeluncomfortable, it's going to
feel uncomfortable.
We've never shown up that waybefore, and I still have to stop
and tell myself this.
So I think that's reallyimportant too, to remember that
(34:50):
you're going to get somepushback in your own body even
and sometimes we mistake thatfor intuition and it's like, no,
that's not the same asintuition.
Your intuition got you on thispath of realizing this is not
healthy for intuition, and it'slike, no, that's not the same as
intuition.
Your intuition got you on thispath of realizing this is not
healthy for me.
And so it's overcoming thatfear and remembering too, like,
if this is fear-based, if thisis fear trying to keep me from
(35:12):
doing this, then I need to keeppushing forward.
I need to not let fear be thenarrative anymore.
I need to not let fear be thenarrative anymore.
Mary (35:20):
Yeah, that's a great point , because there's a system in
your own body too, and we thinkwe need to act a certain way to
stay under the radar.
And it goes back to the idea ofstaying small.
Right, it's safe, it feels safeto stay small, but then you're
not living your full life.
So that intuition, I think,think, is really really valuable
(35:43):
.
But it can be confusing.
And I think, to go back to twothings, it's the curiosity that,
wow, this feels reallyuncomfortable.
What is that emotion?
Is that fear?
Because fear is a liar often,yes, and I think we can test the
evidence.
So just because someone elsebelieves something is true and
that includes your parents orother adults that were important
(36:06):
to you growing up just becausesomebody else believes something
is true doesn't mean that it'strue for you or overall doesn't
mean it's even empirically true.
So I think, using those thingsas someone navigates, showing up
differently in their own life,those are tools that can be kind
(36:26):
of comforting.
It's not like you have to.
Just, you know, exist with thatdiscomfort, you know, befriend
it or look at it.
Like if my best friend Sallywas doing this thing would.
I think that was selfish orwould?
I think that that's somethingthat she shouldn't do and that
can also be helpful because,again, we really apply that
(36:50):
inner critic.
That's why it's inner.
We apply that much more toourselves than we do to other
people that we love.
Melissa (36:57):
We do.
And I think the other thingthat talk about is guilt is
going to come up for a while too.
When people have been used toyou showing up in a certain way
and if you've gotten thenarrative delivered to you that
blood is everything.
We don't abandon bloodrelatives no matter what, no
matter what's happening, there'sno, you know.
No, no, no, no, no.
And when you've come to a pointwhere you realize those
(37:17):
relationships and how they showup in my life are hurting me
more than they're helping me, ifyou've been in very codependent
, enmeshed relationshipsespecially, you're going to feel
some guilt for a while.
That guilt doesn't mean you'redoing anything wrong.
It's again.
It's those old narratives andthe adjustment of the system,
and I can honestly tell you thatafter a couple of years of
(37:41):
really being, I no longer feelguilt anymore.
I've passed the point where Ivery rarely and I'm very
comfortable showing up in a waythat's honoring to me, without
crossing my own boundaries andgetting me to into a space where
I am going back into old habitsor old ways.
Mary (38:03):
Well, and we've sort of used some words, like we use the
word selfish and I want to talka little bit about being human,
like we aren't perfect.
So I'm going to tell you rightnow there are times when I've
taken an extra cupcake and isyou know, like?
Is that selfish?
I don't know.
But I think we also have torecognize that we're allowed to
(38:25):
be imperfect and we need to makespace for that.
So here's a loaded question,melissa Are there such a thing
as bad emotions?
Melissa (38:45):
bad emotions.
No, no, I'm so adamant aboutthis.
I'm so adamant about thisbecause emotions are clues and
they let us know something needsto be tended to Now.
We can respond or react badlywithin those emotions, and I
think that's where the confusionlies, is we're told, especially
as women, that anger is a bademotion.
Anger can be very motivating todo things that need to be done,
(39:08):
to make changes.
It also is a clue to somethingwhat needs to be tended to here?
And how can I move this angerthrough me in a way that's
healthy, so it's no longerstored in my body?
And I use anger as an examplebecause that's something that
came up very real for me in away that's healthy, so it's no
longer stored in my body.
And I use anger as an examplebecause that's something that
came up very real for me in mytherapy.
I had a lot of stuffed angerfrom experiences I'd been
(39:28):
through that I'd never processedbecause I never felt safe to,
and so my therapist gave me some.
She's like all right, I want youto get some pillows, I want you
to find a.
I had a brick wall like outsideof my house, and she was like I
don't want you to swing thatpillow and work that out of your
body, yell and scream what youneed to yell and scream in terms
(39:52):
of the words or spaces orexperience that's connected to
it and let's move that out.
And that was a game changer,because I was allowed to process
it, move it through, moveforward from it.
It was just screaming for myattention to be moved through
and processed.
I had a right to be angry aboutthat, like that was a valid
(40:15):
emotion in that circumstance andso that was the other thing.
So I think that there areharder emotions and easier
emotions 1000%.
But the emotions are clues andI'm so passionate about people
knowing the difference.
It might feel bad, for sure,but the emotion in and of itself
(40:38):
is a clue that something needsto be addressed and walked out
and processed and moved through.
Mary (40:45):
Yeah, and I try to take the word bad kind of out of the
discussion.
So it feels uncomfortable, itfeels yucky, it feels cringy,
and you know, I think we canfeel any way we want.
We just can't do anything wewant you know Right, but that's
what?
Melissa (41:02):
yeah, exactly, it's that reaction to response that
comes out of it.
Yeah, that gets us in trouble.
Mary (41:08):
Yeah, and you know it's interesting that you bring up
anger, because I think that isthe emotion that I see women in
my work as a therapist.
I see women stuff that morethan anything else and it's
ironic to me that it's one ofthe only emotions that's
acceptable.
For men, yes, but for womenwe're crazy, we're hysterical
(41:31):
and that's sometimes it's theacting out of the anger.
But yeah, I think that that issomething that we tend to
internalize and there are oftenclients that I'll have that are
just kind of telling me aboutthese experiences they had in
life and I'm thinking where'sthe anger here?
And when I try to sort of movethem to that, I think then fear
(41:57):
comes up.
I think we as women have beenso conditioned to either deny
our anger or we believe thatwe're hysterical or bad if we
experience it that it makes usphysically sick sometimes.
Melissa (42:11):
A hundred percent.
It's funny because it tookabout three layers of removal,
because my therapist, the firsttime she brought it up with me,
she's like no, I feel sad, Ifeel irritated.
She's like irritated is just acostume word for anger.
I'm like okay, and so shestarted pointing out all these
(42:36):
costume words.
But we're dressing it up assomething else because we've
been been told such terriblethings about us being angry,
been told such terrible thingsabout us being angry.
You know, and you've done a lotin faith spaces too, there's
very misguided teachings aboutanger in faith spaces, and and
so it's like no, no, no, angeritself is not the problem, it's
what we've been taught and toldabout it.
And so therefore, yes, we stepit.
(42:58):
And then we wonder why theseexplosions are happening.
Something tips the cup and itjust has to come out of you,
because you've been storing itup rather than acknowledging it
when it comes up and recognizingwhere it comes from, unpacking
the true narratives, what's true, what's not true, and then like
, okay, how can I move throughthis in an effective way?
(43:19):
How can I use this to motivateme to make a necessary change in
a way that's healthy, in a waythat moves things forward and
not in this explosive dynamic,can show up showing their anger
in the same way.
And women have all like you,crazy, hysterical,
(43:41):
uncontrollable.
Where a man is like he's firedup, he's passionate, so that a
lot of that comes with thethings that we start teaching
little girls and little boys andchildren in general when
they're very young.
We have to be very mindful ofthis and it's so embedded in the
culture that, even if you growup in a home with parents that
are very mindful of this, andit's so embedded in the culture
that, even if you grow up in ahome with parents that are very
(44:01):
mindful of this, it's so presentin everyday life, in the
classroom, in the workspace, inyour social places that you are,
that there's just always goingto be unless we can get this
steered in the right directionsome places where it's got to be
, impact and process, becauseyou're going to bump into it
somewhere, and I think it's thesame for men with the emotion of
(44:27):
sadness, like those thousandpercent.
Yeah, I've had men on my showand it's for women, but a couple
of men specifically ConstantineMaroon, my friend, comes up to
mind to talk about.
Like guys, we need to take careof ourselves and tend to our
emotions too, and it's killingus because we're carrying around
this trope of toxic masculinityand it's taking us out and it's
(44:50):
causing harmful behaviors andit's causing harm to our health.
So these scripts are harmful toall sides of us.
If we could start changing thenarrative on that, everybody
wins.
Mary (45:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm going to pull us backfull circle to kind of tie all
this up and talk to me a littlebit and tell us what your
self-care looks like now fromeverything you've learned.
How do you define that foryourself?
Melissa (45:20):
I've got basic practices that I know help me.
Every day I move my body.
Every day I journal in someform, and sometimes it's writing
down the emotions I'm feelingto help me know what I'm going
to need that day.
What do I need?
More quiet.
How is my schedule looking?
Do I feel prepared for it?
(45:40):
Are there some things that Ineed to pull back on?
I look at all of that, so Ijournal, look at my calendar,
meet myself where I'm at.
Did I not sleep well?
Did I sleep great?
Do I have lots of energy?
No, and so how can I preparemyself in that moment for that?
But knowing the movement isalways there, the journaling is
always there in some form.
Sometimes I'll verbal journal.
(46:01):
If I'm really there's a lotgoing on.
It's hard to get it all inwords on paper.
I will just turn on my phoneand record myself.
Then I go back and listen to itand take notes on the things
that I think I really need tounpack more.
But that allows a reallyunedited, just blah, because I
am an external processor, sosometimes I will implement that
(46:24):
throughout the week.
I've got yoga and Pilates andmindful meditations like 15
minutes of just mindfullywalking, being present in the
moment, paying attention to mybreath.
I probably do that two or threetimes a week, but daily I move
my body in some way.
Every day the journaling and Ireally pay attention to how I
(46:44):
fuel my body.
Am I getting enough protein?
Have I eaten yet?
I start the morning with acombination of lemon water and
ginger tea to just get my systemset right before I have my
coffee.
This didn't just come upovernight.
I had to sit and get presentwith myself and I used to start
the day every day of just namingmy emotions and then lining out
(47:06):
what I needed.
From there I'm finding now I'ma little more in tune to that.
I don't necessarily have to getthat specific and I've gotten
familiar with trying differentthings over time.
I know I need to do that.
I'm moving my body's anon-negotiable.
Whether it's a hit workout oryoga or lifting weights,
whatever that is that day, or awalk, I try to get some steps in
every day.
Get outside, like right now.
(47:28):
I live in Fresno, california.
The orange blossoms areblooming, you can step outside
and it just smells beautiful,and that's not always the case
here in the Central Valley allthe time, but right now it does.
So even if I have a superpacked day with meetings and
recordings, I will step outsidefor five to 15 minutes and just
take in the fresh air.
(47:49):
So those are the things thathelp me.
Also, if I'm in a really busyseason, just 10 minutes of quiet
, nothing.
I'm not meditating, I'm notreading, there's no music,
there's nothing.
It's just quiet.
And we underestimate the powerof just stillness and quiet,
partly because sometimes wedon't like what comes up within
it.
I used to not be a fan of thisbecause all of the stuff that I
(48:13):
hadn't been moving through andprocessing was bubbling up when
I gave myself a minute to giveit room to percolate to the top.
Now this is a very refreshingactivity for me and I tend to
come out of that with new ideas,new thoughts.
Also, same way when I'm doingmy physical workouts, many times
as I'm moving things through mybody, because it's not only
(48:37):
good for me physically, it'sgood for me mentally and
emotionally.
It's allowing me to move anytensions out, move any stressors
out, move any toxins out, andthen I'll get some of my
freshest, best ideas when I'm inthe middle of a rigorous
workout and I'm like I keep ajournal close by so I can jot
them down so I don't forget themlater.
So I would say, if you'relooking for basics, move your
(48:58):
body, smell some fresh air, 10minutes of quiet, get enough
water and fuel your body in away that's going to be
nourishing to you.
And this is not restrictivediets, this is not eliminating
things, just being mindful offueling my body in a way that
helps me move.
Well, enjoy the piece of cake.
You know these things need tobe a lifestyle, not a
(49:19):
restriction, but recognize thosethings that feel your body and
help you to feel well, that's abeautiful list and I hope people
took notes on that.
Mary (49:31):
But I think you know, self-care dovetails a lot with
self-awareness Because, asyou're saying, when you're doing
these things, that are alifestyle change and it's also
intentional.
So, self-awareness andintention, making it a routine,
it's truly a lifestyle.
So, can you consider wine withyour girlfriend?
Self-care, sure, but that'smore like a treat.
Melissa (49:54):
Self-care is health care.
I say that and I'm like so makesure your self-care and it's
not that.
Mary (50:23):
So you gave a really great list and you have so many
things that you offer the world.
I know on your website there'sa book Embracing Layers
Unapologetically, but talk alittle about what else you offer
and where people can find you.
Melissa (50:39):
Yes, thank you so much for that.
Go to embracinglayerscom andit's all there Our podcast
episodes, our weekly YouTubepanels that I do with other
women talking about these topics, our book Embracing Layers.
Unapologetically, the big thingthat I'm doing now that I
wasn't doing when I firststarted is I'm doing speaking
(50:59):
engagements, and so if you wantme to come talk to you about
this feel framework, that Iwasn't doing when I first
started is I'm doing.
I'm doing speaking engagements,and so if you want to me to
come talk to you about this feelframework that I utilize, that
helps me stay on track and thathelps other women stay on track
and invites women collectivelyinto the conversation.
The beauty of the book is Ireally encourage women to do
this in a book club.
(51:19):
Do this walk together, startnaming activities that nourish
you together, start naming whoyou are and identifying your
character traits together,because you can hold each other
accountable for that and notfeel alone as you kind of start
unpacking these things thatmaybe you haven't thought about
in a long time, that are a coretenant of aligning your calendar
(51:43):
and activities with your valuesand your why and your
expectations out of your life,and so much a part of that so I
can talk to you about that inperson.
Now, with the field framework,we can talk about the whole
framework or individual parts ofit.
There's some groups like I'mspeaking at a group in a couple
of weeks down in Pasadena I'mgonna do the full framework to
start the day, but then I'mhaving a round table on just
(52:06):
boundaries later that day.
So for those of you that thisis the one that really gets you,
we're gonna have a round tablespecifically about that so I can
speak to you in person.
And then I'm in the process ofcreating online courses that are
going to be available I hope,by this summer online where you
can get the full framework oryou can get individual
(52:26):
frameworks, and that gives yousomething to have on hand,
especially for those women'snetworking groups or businesses,
to have on hand Anytime a newgroup circulates through.
You.
Have it with you on hand.
I can come back every time ifyou want me to, but it's going
to be a better deal for youeconomically if you get the
(52:47):
online course and just have thatand it's evergreen content.
So, yeah, I'd love to come talkto you, but I'd also listen to
our podcasts and our panels.
These women have so manyamazing stories and resources
for you and those are all on ourwebpage, on our resources page,
that you can access and findthat thing that works for you.
(53:08):
I tell women all the time if youcome to our platform, you're
going to find at least onepodcast, guest or panel that
hits with you, because I bringin women from all over the world
, all backgrounds in life, allethnicities, faith spaces,
socioeconomic spaces,relationship spaces, to help
this be a welcoming space forwomen to feel safe, seen, heard,
(53:30):
known in this space, and so wealso have a sub stack as well
and that's all.
Like I said, go toembracingleaderscom and our sub
stack is where we drop our blogsand our newsletters, and we're
also starting to bring back ourpast guests that have books now
and we're bringing them back forSubstack Live so you can hear
about their books and get accessto that.
(53:51):
So the beauty of mine is likeit's my voice and framework, but
it's all of these hundreds ofwomen and their voices and their
resources that we've broughttogether here to support women
in this journey and rememberingthat you are worth valuing and
take care of and prioritizing,not because of what you do,
because of who you are.
Mary (54:12):
That's really beautiful.
That's a great way to sum allof this up and so many good
things that you offer, so I willdefinitely include your website
in my show notes and thank youso much for talking with me
today.
This has been delightful.
Melissa (54:26):
Thank you so much, mary .
I can't wait to have you onmine.
I love what you're doing here.
The more of us doing this, thebetter, because that's how we
reach women with this messageand invite them into this
journey with us, and we can dothis together.
This is how we changenarratives and make this world a
safe place for women to live inas their authentic selves.
Mary (54:49):
Yeah, bringing women together is so important and I
know it's part of both of ourmessages, and one of the best
things about this podcast is thelisteners and the community
that we're creating.
So I love hearing from you,whether it's to respond to an
idea from an episode, to give asuggestion or simply to let me
know how an episode affected you.
So please consider leaving areview so others can more easily
(55:12):
find me and follow the show, soyou don't miss a thing.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Thank you.
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