November 13, 2025 • 52 mins
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What if prosperity isn’t a number, but the safety and support you can count on? Mary sits down with holistic wealth coach, writer, and speaker Morgan Blackman to rethink money through the lens of energy, values, and community. We move past the spreadsheet to explore how gratitude, alignment, and resourcefulness create options—often without a dollar changing hands.
Morgan shares how childhood money dynamics and cultural narratives shape our nervous systems, why many women develop hyper‑independence around finances, and how trust and teamwork can transform that armor into real stability. We talk about gifts as reciprocity rather than debt, the rise of experiences over things, and why younger generations are redesigning work for freedom and well-being. Then we get practical: mapping values to spending, setting goals you actually care about, and building simple systems for cash flow, debt, and investing.
You’ll also hear Morgan’s Wealth Well framework—wealth wellness, wealth strategies, and wealth creation—which blends money energetics with the financial literacy schools skip. With AI and shifting labor markets, diversified income and aligned work aren’t luxuries; they’re protection. We close by widening the circle: collective wealth as a path to safer neighborhoods, stronger communities, and a more humane economy. Advocacy, mutual aid, and everyday care are not extras—they’re how abundance flows.
If you’re ready to feel resourced, not just paid, this conversation offers both the mindset and the moves to build wealth that fits your nature. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs this reframe, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show. What’s one value you’ll fund this week?
You can find Morgan HERE.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
So I grew up in a two-parent,single-income household with
four siblings.
I don't remember ever not beingable to have something I really
(00:49):
needed.
And somehow my dad not onlypaid off the house while I was a
teenager, he was able to fund astate college education for
each of us.
My mom went to two or threegrocery stores each week,
depending on what we needed,what was on sale, and what
coupon she had.
We never went on a vacation,except to the local amusement
park, and going to McDonald'swas a bi-monthly treat.
(01:10):
No other eating out unless itwas the rare visit to a diner.
But I do remember going for icecream several times in the
summer.
Believe it or not, though, Inever had pizza until high
school at a friend's house.
So needless to say, when Imoved out on my own, I knew how
to stretch a buck.
Although I never had a greatpaying job and sometimes had a
(01:31):
second job in the evenings, Iwas always able to travel when I
wanted to, and I rarely feltmoney pressure.
But I also loathe financialplanning.
It gives me the ick, so I'mgrateful that my husband loves
it.
The interesting thing is,although I was quite successful
in my career, I never thoughtmuch about the money I made.
And when I changed jobs a fewtimes throughout my working
(01:52):
life, I always made less moneybecause I was focused on the
work I would be doing, not thecompensation.
Yet I was always able to getpromoted quickly and do just
fine.
So you probably know by now Idon't love talking about money.
I do, however, love havingmoney that I want for my little
joys, like my expensive coffeebeans, pedicures every now and
(02:14):
then, and periodic dinners atspecial places with one
double-digit priced mixed drink.
Honestly, though, I'm prettyhappy with pizza and bar food
too.
Most of my life joys don'treally cost anything because
y'all know I'm a nature girl andall that.
So anyway, I always felt likemy work was about something
different than money.
And after reading something myguest wrote, I now 100% believe
(02:37):
it.
And I also have more insightabout why about why I don't love
talking about finances.
So I can't wait to talk aboutall this with her.
My guest today is MorganBlackman.
She's a holistic wealth coach,writer, and speaker who helps
soul-conscious women confidentlybuild wealth that's in
alignment with their values,vision, and energetic design.
(02:58):
Her signature approach blendsspiritual insight, wellness
practices, and practicalfinancial strategy.
You see why I can't wait totalk to her.
Empowering clients to reachhigher forms of alignment while
healing from the emotionalblocks that often stand in the
way of the abundance that getsthem there.
When she's not coaching, she'straveling the world, diving into
consciousness, expanding reads,and writing poetry, also
(03:22):
spending time with her lovedones.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Morgan.
Morgan (03:27):
Okay, thank you, Megan, for having me.
That was such a beautiful sortof life story that you shared
there.
Mary (03:33):
Oh, thank you.
Morgan (03:33):
I really love that.
Yeah, and pizza until highschool.
Mary (03:36):
Yeah.
How was that when you finallytried it?
Oh my gosh.
It was a revelation.
You know, I I think probablythey felt like knowing my
parents who are not livinganywhere, but knowing my
parents, they probably thoughtabout the ingredients and
thought we could make this for$1.50.
So they're they would never gobuy one.
Morgan (03:54):
But right, right.
I mean, homemade pizza probablydoes taste better than store
thought.
Yeah.
Mary (04:00):
But anyway, I made up for it throughout life.
So I've had plenty of pizza.
Um exactly.
So anyway, I usually start byasking my guests to talk about
kind of like the flashballmoments in their life that they
see that maybe have gotten themto where they are.
I think so.
For you, was there a narrativeabout wealth that you inherited
(04:22):
and maybe you had to overcome?
Morgan (04:24):
Right.
Yeah.
So I mean, kind of somesimilarities to your sort of
story or at least childhoodupbringing.
Um, I mean, my parents hadlike, you know, stable
middle-income jobs.
Um, we actually were able tomaybe take the occasional trip
once in a while.
Um, but yeah, I wasn't likestruggling in the sense that I
(04:44):
wasn't sure where my next mealwas going to come from.
Um, yeah, I always had like thebasics.
Um, but then the biggest thingthat stood out to me as a child
was that there were always a lotof arguments about money.
So that was a bit conflictingand a bit confusing because I
felt like, well, I hadeverything I needed and anything
that I asked my dad, he would,you know, get me.
(05:05):
I was a little bit of like adaddy's girl.
Um, but then behind the scenes,it's like there's all these
fights.
And then as I got older, Irealized a lot of these fights
money.
Um, and mainly because a lot ofthe lifestyle that we were
living was funded off of creditcards.
Um, not necessarily, notnecessarily saying that's good
or bad, but um, I mean, if itdoes cause fights and conflict,
(05:28):
then I guess yes, it would bemore the um the former, then
maybe it is a bit um of a stickysituation there and how my
parents um navigate their ownrelationship with money, right?
And maybe not in the healthiestof ways.
So for me, yeah, I think uhrelying on them was a different
story.
I think I kind of started tocarve my own sort of money
(05:50):
blueprint and understanding ofmoney once I got my first job at
16 at a Tim Hortons.
Um and yeah, that was when Iwas able to finally make money
for myself.
So it was like I'm not reallyrelying on them anymore.
I'm able to sort of make my owndecisions when it comes to
money.
And that gives a lot of likefreedom and liberation and being
able to just, you know, Iprobably blew a lot of my money
(06:12):
on clothes and food and makeup,you know, as like a 16-year-old
girl.
Like that's those were like thethree things.
Um, and yeah, I found a lot offreedom and joy in that.
I think it was only until Isort of got into university
where the financial realitiesof, you know, just being an
adult, being more responsible,knowing that at some point I'm
(06:33):
going to graduate and I'm goingto have a lot of debt.
And that was also the firsttime I also probably got my
first credit card.
So it was like, oh, you know,this is money that's not mine
that I'm using to now fuel alifestyle that I have to pay
back.
How can I be mindful aboutthis?
Um, and so there became a pointwhere I realized, okay, in
order to pay off debt, I have tomake sure I have some
(06:54):
consistent income coming in atall times.
So I've always been sort oflike the workaholic.
Um, I love to see money comingin.
So, sort of like yourself,having like one or two or even
three jobs, you know, likecertain like side hustles or
part part-time opportunities tobring in more income.
Um, so yeah, I feel like I'dnever, you know, I got to a
(07:16):
place, especially in university,where it was like, um, I had
enough, but I always felt like Icould have more, I could be
wealthier.
Um I felt like yes, I couldtake a trip if I wanted to, but
um, I still had to kind of lookto see if I had enough money,
you know.
So it wasn't like I was umcompletely um able to have all
(07:38):
the options available to me, youknow.
And so I think maybe eventuallyI'll kind of get into
specifically like my financialstory.
But yeah, those were like someof the few mindset sort of eras
I call them that sort of shapeme to eventually get to where I
am today.
Mary (07:54):
Yeah.
Well, you talk a lot aboutenergy and money, and this is
one one of the things I haveseveral things I would like to
explore with you if we havetime, but I that this is that's
one of the things because thatresonated a lot with me because
I think we can make the mistakeof thinking of money as just
dollars and cents.
(08:14):
But I think wealth is differentthan money, abundance is
different than wealth.
So these are the things that Ithink, especially for women, can
lower that, especially for me,the sense of like, ugh, like I
don't like talking about money,probably because a lot of the
work I've done has been humanservices.
(08:35):
And to me, trying to put avalue on that is very difficult.
And you know, we're usually notpaid well.
But I think I love the I lovethe way you talk about it.
So I want to read somethingthat you wrote because it really
named, I think, what Iexperience in my life, and you
summed it up in a way that I waslike, oh, okay, because I think
(08:59):
for me there's been a littlebit of shame around not liking
financial planning, not like thewhole money thing, but this
really reframed it.
So let me um let me read whatyou wrote.
Okay.
You wrote, abundance isn't justa balance sheet.
Abundance is having a neighboroffer you a ride when your car
(09:19):
breaks down.
It's a friend watching yourkids so you can rest.
It's the time, presence, andlove we exchange every day
without a dollar ever changinghands.
When someone offers to pets atyour dog in exchange for staying
at your house, that's money.
That's an energetic exchange.
When you give time, creativity,or care to your community, when
(09:40):
you receive joy, beauty, orpeace in return, that's
abundance, that's wealth.
I love that.
Morgan (09:48):
Thank you.
Yeah.
Um, maybe I can elaborate onthat a bit, I guess.
Mary (09:54):
Yes, please do.
Morgan (09:55):
Yeah.
So, I mean, I actually see wellthat abundance is sort of being
the same thing.
It's almost like, you know,same coin, but just sort of
opposite sides.
Um, yes, money figuratively, Imean, we live in this sort of 3D
material world.
Um, it's a resource like anyother.
And it's a way to exchange withsomeone else something of
(10:17):
value.
Um, but there are other ways toexchange something of value
without having to use thiscurrency or cash or you know
what we've sort of made it up tobe in this capitalist system.
So when we talk about theenergetics, for me, it's
understanding at the end of theday that everything is a
transaction, right?
(10:38):
We give and take like thisreciprocal sort of exchange.
And like I said, currencydoesn't have to be involved in
that.
So there are so many ways tofeel resourced without maybe
having to work or earn anincome.
And that does sound, you know,kind of crazy to some people.
Like, how can I do that?
But um, one example I like togive, I mean, you just shared,
(11:00):
you know, my uh quote and what Ihad said, you know, like maybe
someone's, you know, maybecarpooling with you and offering
you a car ride to work.
So you don't really have toworry too much about
transportation or having to buyor have your own car.
Um, there's kind of ways to getaround it, right?
And still feel resourced andsort of, yeah, get the
experience sort of that you wantout of life.
(11:20):
Um, when I was in New Zealand,maybe like two, three years ago,
I met a monk for the firsttime.
And yeah, it was really random.
Like I was just walking downthe streets of Auckland and some
girl was handing out flyers forthis like yoga event.
Um, and she's like, a monk'sgonna be there, you'll be able
to speak with him.
And I'm like, sure.
Like, who wouldn't want to, youknow, talk to some like highly
(11:43):
revered spiritual teacher?
And so I ended up going to theevent.
I was able to sit and talk withhim one-on-one.
But one of the things that hementioned that like really blew
my mind around just someonebeing able to be resourced, even
outside of like capitalisticframeworks, was um the fact that
he traveled so much to do thesespeaking events.
Um, but he's not allowed toaccept money.
(12:05):
Like he's not allowed to takean income.
And so I was like, how likelike how does that work?
Like, how do you pay for yourplane tickets and
accommodations, you know?
And pretty much he just saidthat he has a community of
people that care for him, youknow, and um maybe people who
are operating obviously within acapitalistic framework that
can, you know, provide for himin a way outside of that.
(12:28):
So, you know, his hisaccommodations, he's probably
staying with someone who maybeowns the yoga studio or is
hosting the event.
Um, obviously, probably wouldbe cooking meals for him, or
people in the community wouldbring would be bringing meals,
you know, for him.
Playing ticket, maybe a similarsituation.
So yeah, it was veryinteresting that like money
doesn't like ever touch hishand, yet he's fed, he has a
(12:51):
roof over his head, you know,connections.
And that's what I've eventuallycome to understand about you
know, wealth and feelingresourced.
Um I really want women to getto a place where they can be
resourceful and understand thatwhether you have a million
dollars or you know, a thousanddollars in your bank account,
(13:15):
um, it really comes down tofeeling good.
And that might require youhaving the right community, the
right support systems in placein order to, yeah, in order to
feel resourced and to feel goodabout the way that you're
showing up in your life.
Um, I want you to feel happy,you know, regardless of the
number that's in your bankaccount.
Although sometimes, yes, itdoes get to a point where you
(13:37):
need to be making a certainincome so that you can survive.
But I'm more interested in nowhaving a conversation as to how
could we get creative aroundcreating resourcefulness um
outside of yeah, what societytells you it should look like.
Mary (13:51):
Yeah.
Well, you're already doingsomething that I love.
You're using different languagebecause you're using the word
resource to being resourced.
And I never thought about itthat way.
And it's interesting because Ithink naturally, I think growing
up the way I did, there wasnothing fancy.
Like I never felt like I missedout on anything because we
always had what we needed.
We had a clean home, we werewell fed.
(14:13):
I got in my, you know, I had topay for grad school, which is
fine.
My dad at least got me started,which I realized later, not
many of my friends had thatopportunity.
So that I think for me, I neverworried like I wasn't gonna
have money.
I just kind of, I mean,sometimes it would be like, oh
(14:34):
man, I'm this things are alittle lean right now, but I it
never like hung me up.
And I think I always went intoit with this idea of I'm gonna
be fine.
And it's it's interesting thatthe first job I ever had was in
public schools.
And it was a it was awell-paying job.
I was there for almost 20years.
So when I left, I took a hugepay cut.
And my mom, who had grown upduring the depression, was
(14:56):
appalled that I would do thatfor my my professional
happiness.
And it was, I never lookedback.
Like my trajectory in my careerwas were some of the best
decisions I made.
But that idea of how can yougive up, you know, several, I
mean, it was over $20,000 atthat time was, you know.
(15:19):
So I'm wondering how do youhelp people start to shift from
like a scarcity mindset to oneof like energetic openness,
let's say.
Morgan (15:29):
Yeah.
Um, there's a few ways to sortof approach this.
Um one approach is, I mean,hearing your story, some people
naturally are just a bit more onthe minimalist side.
Like it sounds like you know,you mentioned just having enough
and being okay with justenough.
Um, most people aren't okaywith just enough, right?
Like we live in this sort of umescalator or treadmill kind of
(15:54):
society where you want more andmore and more.
And once you get to something,it's like the bigger home.
And, you know.
Um, so I think that's one thingis to shift from a scarcity to
an abundant mindset is startingwith gratitude, like recognizing
what you do have and that mostpeople have enough.
It's just we're sodisillusioned that you should
(16:16):
have more and that more is goingto make you happier.
Um, that might not necessarilybe the case, right?
So for you, taking the pay cut,um, the pay cut maybe wasn't as
big of a deal because, youknow, it still was maybe enough
for you to live, you know, acomfortable lifestyle and
allowed you to focus more on thepursuits of, you know, doing
(16:39):
something that fulfills you andthat you're passionate about and
that's serving others, right?
Um, so another thing that wecan talk about is um values,
right?
And I think a lot of people arespending in misalignment to
their values.
So um, you know, maybe yourvalues is family, but then you
(17:00):
maybe spent a lot of money on umthings to impress other people,
you know, for status.
And so maybe you can shift thatand say, hey, you know what?
Like I don't necessarily needthis to gain the approval of
people that aren't important tome.
And maybe a lot of this moneywill be best fit towards, you
know, spending on my family,maybe in terms of gifts or
(17:21):
hosting, you know, parties andcelebrations and gathering
people together.
And then you will feel muchbetter about your money and not
feel like, why is it that I'mmaking maybe X amount and I
still feel unsatisfied?
Because we see that a lot insociety.
People think, well, I have tomake six figures in order to
finally be happy and to enjoy mylife, when really it's more of
(17:44):
a misalignment that people havewith their spending and their
relationship with money.
So, yeah, so definitelypracticing gratitude, getting
clear on um, you know, what whatreally is of value to you.
And then um, I would say, yeah,just being clear on your goals
as well, too.
(18:04):
Like those would be the threethings.
Like what are you workingtowards and why?
Getting really clear on thatwhy.
And I think it's easier to getclear on that why once you have
your values and you truly knowyourself and why that's
important to you.
Then you'll start to realize,you know, maybe taking the pay
cut isn't as much of a big deal.
Or yes, maybe I do need to bemaking a little bit more so that
(18:26):
I can, you know, really show upin the way that I really want
to in my life and livecomfortably.
Um, but a lot of people I findand I feel like are living in
scarcity because they think theyneed to have a certain amount
of money to live this qualitylife, when really that that
quality life might just betrying to copy someone else's
blueprint, which does not fityours at all.
Mary (18:49):
Right.
Yeah.
Values are, I mean, they're soimportant in so many things.
And I think we sometimes thinkwe know our values, and maybe we
do, but we don't live by them.
And I think it's a sense oflike discomfort when we're not.
I mean, I'm the first to say, Ihave a lot of pairs of boots.
I am a boot girl, I loveclothing.
(19:09):
I am, I feel guilty though, ifI don't buy things on sale.
Like it's a weird thing, but Ido love clothing.
I love feeling good inclothing.
But there's sort of that weird,and I think that comes from,
again, growing up with you havetwo pairs of shoes and it's
fine.
And you know, so I think that'sit's that's some of the hang
(19:30):
up, um, I guess for me.
But I think that idea of reallyaligning what is important
because I know if I get too muchof something, then I start to
feel like, oh, this is like Ineed to get rid of some things
because it starts to feelunbalanced.
But it's funny you talk aboutgift giving because so my family
(19:51):
celebrates Christmas and I buygifts the whole way through the
year.
I have a relatively big family.
I love that so much.
And I don't spend, I don't needto spend a lot of money.
I feel like it's about what Ireally know people.
I like getting them thingsthey'll love.
I have like 35 rolls ofwrapping paper because I love
(20:11):
beauty.
I love beautiful paper andribbons and gift bags.
But ever almost every year, aconversation comes up and
somebody will say, Don't get meany gifts this year.
I don't have enough money.
And I I get so frustratedbecause I'm like, first, I don't
expect a gift.
That is not why I give gifts.
But it's so funny this um, thisidea we have that if someone
(20:34):
gives me a gift, I have to givethem one back.
And that is not like I'muncomfortable if you I it's not
a box to check.
Like when when people say it'slike December 23rd and they're
like, I just did all myChristmas shopping, I'm like,
what?
Like to me, that's checking abox.
I don't give to check the box.
I give gifts because I love todo it.
(20:55):
So there's an inequality therethat I think feels it's a and
it's an energy, I think.
Like I love that energy ofgiving.
Yeah, but that alwaysfrustrates me.
Morgan (21:05):
Well, it sounds like, yeah, it just sounds like coming
back to the uh that the art ofreciprocity.
I feel like some people think,oh my gosh, she's giving me
something.
I need to run and give thatperson back to sort of balance
things out.
But it's so interesting becausenot recognizing that the
person's gifting you becauseyou've already offered some type
of value into their life.
(21:26):
You know, it's like actuallyMary's the one that's trying to
balance out or cancel out thedebt in a sense, you know, the
energetic debt.
Um, but yeah, so often peopleare like, oh my gosh, you've
gifted me something.
Now I need to like rush andfind something and gift you.
And yeah, it is hard,especially with the holidays
coming up.
Um, I feel that pressuresometimes too, because I've gone
(21:47):
through seasons where I maybedidn't have um as much money as
I'd like in that season to giftin the way that I normally
would.
Um and I have a lot of niecesand nephews, and I'm like,
please, none of my brothers andsisters have one more job.
Give me a chance to catch up.
Um, but yeah, and then you knowwhat?
Like some of the best giftsI've gotten um didn't like money
(22:10):
wasn't involved at all, or likevery little.
Like, I I had a friend onetime, one of the best gifts, it
was like, oh, how do I explainit?
It was almost like, you know,those movies where in a movie,
but like someone gifts you likemaybe like a box and a box and a
box and a box, and you kind ofhave to like keep pulling things
out of it.
Sort of feels like a magictrick where you're just pulling
(22:30):
all these tissues out until youget to the actual gift.
And my friend had somethingsimilar like that, except it was
like a note under a note undera note, and it was like just all
these lovely things that sheadmired about me.
And then when you get to thebottom, it was like $20.
But honestly, like I didn'teven care if there was $20 at
the end of it.
It was just, you know, just thewords.
So sometimes like even just aheartfelt letter or a card.
(22:54):
Um, you know, maybe somethingthat you already have in your
home.
I always tell people,especially around the holidays,
like just get creative.
Like maybe you have thingsaround your home that, you know,
can be reused and or turnedinto a gift without feeling like
I have to go out there and buysomething.
Um, but yeah, I think it'sreally just like you said, it's
just gifting should just becoming from the heart.
(23:16):
It's not like an expectation.
And so many people feel like,oh, I have to, yeah, I'm
expected to buy something, togive someone something, even if
I may not have it.
And it's, you know, how can youget creative in finding maybe
it's offering your time, youknow, volunteering or yeah, so
many other ways to give people.
But it is interesting that youmentioned that like exchange,
(23:39):
people really get caught up inthe making sure that like it's
balanced out at all times rightaway.
Mary (23:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or how much should we spend?
It's like, hey, yeah, dude, Ifind things on sale.
So, but you know, you talkedabout time, and I think it's it
is it's being creative.
So I think about again thisenergy.
And thank you so much forsaying that, you know, I feel
like these people have given mesomething because again, I never
perceived it that way.
(24:05):
And for some reason, like justtalking about this, it feels
like a little emotional, like itbecause I think it's so
important to me to how I putmyself into the world.
But when I think about time andbeing creative, like if you
don't have a lot of money inDecember, then give me a little
voucher and we will get coffeefive times in the year.
That will cost you 20 bucks.
(24:25):
So I think it's just thinkingbecause time to me, especially
as you get older, is moreimportant.
And I know, like my sister didthis to for some of my nieces
last year.
She didn't give them a physicalgift.
She said, pick a place andwe're gonna spend the day
together.
I love that.
So I think that's where youhave to think outside the box of
what is a gift, because a giftis just you're giving something
(24:49):
that has energy, doesn't have tobe a exactly.
So I love that.
Morgan (24:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I love that too.
Actually, you're making methink of um even I feel like
I've noticed I've noticed thislately amongst um millennials,
Gen Zs, and how they spend theirmoney.
And a lot of people are havingthis shift um with you know,
spending on physical things andshifting more into spending on
experiences and moments andmemories, you know, versus just
(25:16):
like this one item that you buyand then like maybe you never
wear it again, or you know, itgets thrown into the back of a
closet.
Um, so I find it reallyinteresting.
A lot of people are starting torecognize and value um just
people and and community andspending quality time with loved
ones.
Mary (25:32):
Yeah.
And having worked in a college,I I retired from Penn State,
but I spent a lot of my careerworking, my later career working
in college.
And I've seen that shift injust looking at what does money
mean to young people?
What does working mean to youngpeople?
And when they when this trendstarted of like, you don't stay
in a job for 25 years, you know,it's it's horrifying to the
(25:53):
older generation, but it's thisnimbleness of like, well, I'm
not really satisfied here.
And it's a whole mind shift.
And I think along with that,there's a total mind shift in
what does it mean to make moneyand how I do it.
Morgan (26:09):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, a lot of younger people Ifind want more freedom,
flexibility.
Um, exactly what you said, likethis whole idea of retiring at
65.
You know, you go to school toget this job that you're in for
30 years and then you retirecomfortably.
Yeah, a lot of millennials arelike, no, I don't want to be
sold that dream anymore.
I want to live life now.
(26:30):
Like I remember someonementioning, like, what's the
point of waiting until 65 whenyour health is probably not the
best?
You know, if anything, youshould be living your best life
at 20, 30, your 40s, when you'relike able-bodied and, you know,
um, for most people, hopefully,are, you know, able-bodied and
able to do these things and totravel.
Um, so that's that's part ofthe work that I do.
(26:52):
It's like, how can we enjoyyour life today and not wait
until you're 50 or 60 or 70 toenjoy it?
Um, and I think a lot ofyounger people are getting
creative and in figuring outwhat that looks like, you know.
So with COVID, um, a lot ofpeople switched into working
remotely.
And then after COVID, a lot ofpeople realize no, I I really do
(27:12):
love this balanced lifestyle ofbeing able to, you know, maybe
not be glued to my computer, youknow, eight hours out of the
day.
You know, I can kind of breakthat up and go for walks and
like truly integrate self-careum and travel.
I could be working from adifferent country.
And so um the options sort ofmultiplied, you know, for people
(27:32):
and people realize, oh shoot,like they've kind of been
selling us this one linear wayof living life, and there's so
many different ways to do itnow.
Um, and as yeah, and and aslong as you know what you want
and what you value and how youknow your money should be
aligned in alignment to that,then I feel like it's it's more
than possible than ever toreally create that abundant,
(27:55):
sort of flexible lifestyle thatcreates that freedom that most
people want.
Mary (27:59):
Yeah.
And when you talk about energyor meaning for for money, I
think when we look at oldergenerations, they did have a
rough time.
I mean, it was exchanging workfor money often, hard work, you
know.
So I think there's a there's amemory of that.
And I don't want to get too farinto epigenetics, but we carry
(28:20):
certain things on our genes andit expresses or does it's not a
genetic change, but sometimesthat that hard work that, you
know, I need to get this muchper hour because I have to feed
my kids, and there were so manydifferent things involved in
what was work.
And now as we open up into thiswhole new world of, like you're
(28:41):
saying, like we can work onlineor we, you know, for me, I miss
actually working in person.
I loved having a staff, I lovedgoing to work.
And now I could, you know, Iretired, I decided to do my own
business, I didn't have to.
Now I'm actually looking atgoing back to work for someone
else because there are thingsthat I didn't do that I want to
do.
And so I think for me, it'salways exploring.
(29:02):
But I want to take a littleside road here because one of
the things that I noticed insome of the things that you
talked about is this idea ofwomen feel hyper-independent
with money.
Because let me tell you alittle bit about.
So for me, I remarried lessthan three years ago.
My husband's a little bitolder, his wife had died.
(29:23):
Um, I always supported myself.
Even in my first marriage, Iwas the one that, you know,
really sort of financed thefamily.
So he brought a pretty decentincome with him.
So my whole world shifted.
And at first I was like, I wantyou to keep your money
separate.
He's like, what are you talkingabout?
I'm like, because I especiallybuilding a business, like, I
(29:46):
want this to be my money.
And he's like, well, I don'tthink about it that way.
So for me, that's been a bigjourney of seeing, of allowing
someone else to give things tome that actually ease some of my
decisions.
Making so what is your take onthis?
Tal talk a little about whywomen have this issue.
Morgan (30:07):
Okay.
Um so personally, I think forme as a woman, um, I can't speak
to everyone else.
I have an idea as to why otherwomen feel this way, but for me
personally, I think there is uma distrust amongst maybe
sometimes women and men.
(30:28):
I mean, growing up, seeing alot of conflict between my
parents, seeing a lot ofconflict between the other woman
in my family and the distressthat men cause.
I have like my own kind ofwounding around, you know,
relationships and men.
And I think for me, myhyper-independence came out of
not wanting to rely on somebodyelse and someone to have that
(30:50):
control over me, right?
So if I'm not making any moneyand this one person is the only
person making money andcontributing to the household,
they're gonna have a larger say.
Um, and I feel like I'm at riskof, you know, my own safety,
um, mentally, emotionally,spiritually, physically, because
(31:13):
this person has so much morepower um in this sort of
dynamic.
And so I think for me, thehyper independence came out of I
never want anyone to have thatopportunity to abuse me or to,
you know, have that control.
And so it's important for me tomake sure that I'm financially
independent.
But then there is it, it doescome to a point where sometimes
(31:35):
um, yeah, then you don't want toever open yourself up to maybe
someone contributing or helpingbecause of that fear that might
not necessarily be true ornecessary, right?
And that's something I've hadto, as I've gotten older, um,
you know, a part of my sort ofum healing that wounding around
(31:56):
men and dating and relationshipsis learning to trust and that I
don't have to do everythingmyself.
And that, you know, often wework better as a team, you know,
like when we talk aboutcollective wealth building and
community, um, that's that's apart of it, right?
Finding a teammate, finding apartner that can help ease some
of the burdens financially,spiritually, mentally,
emotionally, right?
(32:17):
So I've had to come to learn toknow, yeah, it's okay to maybe
share finances, or there will beseasons where maybe you're
making more, or you know, yourpartner's making less.
And then there's another seasonwhere they're making more and
we're making less.
And it's it's really at the endof the day about really coming
together and just being moreresourceful together than
(32:37):
separate and apart.
Um, and I think for most women,um well, for some women that
might also be their story too,in terms of like that
hyper-independence and feelinglike they have to do everything
themselves.
Um yeah, and then for um otherwomen, it could just be um maybe
(32:58):
they I don't know, maybe theyjust feel like they don't have
that support system, and so theyhave no choice.
It's really just, you know,it's it's you know, maybe
they're single mothers, youknow, that really don't have
much of the support system.
And so that's all they've knownis to kind of fend for
themselves and to um maybe notask for help because maybe they
(33:20):
feel like they could just dothings better or there's no help
available.
So that's yeah, that's sort ofjust their situation, and that's
all that they can do.
But at least for me, I canyeah, that's that's sort of
where my hyperindependence comesfrom and how it relates to
money.
Mary (33:34):
Yeah.
Well, and I think it's beinglet down too.
Sometimes it's like, well, I'mjust gonna do it myself, or or I
sort of went into this secondmarriage thinking there's always
scorekeeping, but there is notwith my husband.
And I had to get used to that.
It wasn't like, well, youbought this, or you know, like,
well, why did you do that?
We have never had an argumentabout money.
(33:56):
And I think it's just gettingused to that idea that sometimes
there are people out there thatdo have that generousness of
heart.
It's just, and he sees money.
He loves the financial planningpart of it, which is great.
But apart from that, he doesn'tsee it as transactional.
It's more just like this is ourshared ability to make life
(34:18):
decisions, which is reallybeautiful.
So the other part of this withwomen, do you feel like women of
color especially have a hardertime with the hypervigilance or
okay?
Morgan (34:30):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, definitely blackwomen once again.
I think there's more of thisnarrative of um not feeling safe
um amongst um maybespecifically men or just not
feeling supported.
Um, yeah, there it's it'salways been a conversation
within the black community of umthis larger scarcity mindset of
(34:56):
like not wanting to supportsomeone else, because if you
support someone else, they'regonna get ahead and you're gonna
fall behind.
Um, and you know, of course, wesee this in other spaces as
well, too.
But I think it's very umpredominant within the black
space and community.
And it could be, you know, arange of things.
Um, one of those beingcollective trauma and um
(35:17):
slavery, and already just blackpeople feeling farther behind.
So it's like we're sort of in aspace where we're trying to
catch up, um, you know, to thosewho have more privileges.
And so it's like I can't affordto, you know, have this other
person do better than me or makemore than me because I have a
family to feed and I'm trying toget ahead in this capitalist
system.
(35:37):
Um, so I feel like that iswhere a lot of maybe, you know,
the the hyper independence iskind of rooted in um for black
women specifically.
And yeah, just like I said, aswell, just like not feel like
they have safe spaces when itcomes to relationships.
That's a whole notherconversation as well.
There's a lot of uh domesticviolence and abuse um and
(35:57):
cheating within the blackcommunity as well.
A lot of black men areincarcerated.
Um, I shouldn't at least say ita lot, but there there is a you
know, um a significantpercentage.
I'm not really sure what thepercentage is, but I do know I
would probably say between maybelike 30 to 40 percent of black
men are incarcerated.
So that's like another issuewhere there are a lot more um
(36:20):
single family homes, a lot ofsingle black mothers trying to
navigate that, which can be hardfinancially.
So yeah, um, definitely I wouldsay black women really do
struggle when it comes to theirfinances and finding support
systems for sure.
Mary (36:37):
It's really complex.
And I think with all of this,it's what are we bringing
historically to the table, toour way of thinking?
And really, if we talk aboutwomen as a group, we're often
set up as competitors anyway.
There's just, you know, we'rewe're competing.
I think uh again, historically,it was we're competing for men,
which that was the resourcebecause in the United States,
(37:01):
it's only been 50 years that wecould coast like sign for a loan
just for ourselves, buy house ahouse for ourselves, a credit
card, exactly.
Yeah.
So there's a lot, I think, thatbeing aware of what we carry
with us and understanding thatsomeone else's experience is not
our own.
I mean, you brought you bringup a lot of things that
obviously I didn't experience,but I think there are shades of
(37:23):
that just as being women, butthere's so much deep, there's
such a deeper um aspect to itbecause again, we've seen
grandparents and parents andfriends, all of these things
that were sort of part of ourspecific community impacting
this whole narrative of what ismoney and what is safe.
(37:44):
You talked about safety, whichis really important because I've
talked to women in abusivesituations and we don't talk
about financial abuse, but whyare women stuck a lot of times?
Because they don't control themoney.
So I think we can get into alot more, which we don't have
time for today, but I think it'sa really fascinating discussion
to have some grace withyourself.
(38:05):
And when we see someone elsestruggling, it's not like, oh,
why didn't you learn this inschool?
Can't you like add and subtractand budget?
And it's way, way more thanthat.
Morgan (38:16):
Oh deeper than that.
Mary (38:18):
Yes.
100%.
Morgan (38:20):
Yeah.
unknown (38:20):
Yeah.
Morgan (38:21):
Yeah, for sure.
Sorry, yeah, to cut you offthere.
Yeah.
And I I think that's somethingI didn't speak on um in quite
detail.
But yeah, women relatively havenot been financially
independent.
Um, it's only been maybe thelast, like you said, a hundred
years or so, or yeah, between 50to 100 years, where you know,
women increasingly have steppedinto the workforce, are starting
(38:43):
to make an income forthemselves, have you know the
flexibility and the freedom andthe options now available to
them to do what they please withit.
So yeah, it is relatively newfor us.
Um, and so definitely we doneed to show ourselves, you
know, a lot of compassion andgrace for maybe sometimes still
getting it wrong.
Um, but yeah, I think there'ssomething really beautiful to
(39:06):
that to, you know, to reallyearn money and manage our money
and live our lives in a wayoutside of what, you know, this
oppressive system once taught uswhat it should look like.
And no longer women feelinglike, well, I can only just stay
at home and cook and clean.
Like, no, I could do so muchmore.
I can contribute so much moreto this world, and money just
allows me to do even more ofthat on my own terms.
Mary (39:29):
Yeah.
And ironically, we end upthinking we have to do
everything.
I think there are women thatthey choose to stay home and
raise their kids, and that's thelegacy they're putting into the
world.
There are also women thatthink, well, I do have to raise
the kids and I do have to go towork and I do have to clean the
house.
And so, yeah, again, uhconversation for another day.
But one more thing I want toexplore.
You mentioned something aboutcollective wealth.
(39:52):
So can you talk aboutcollective wealth building
versus individual wealth?
What does that mean?
Morgan (39:59):
Oh, yes.
Okay, I get so excited for thistopic.
Um, so yeah, it's justindividual wealth is focused on
your own pursuits towards wealthbuilding and feeling abundant.
But so often I feel like we welive in a world now where it's
very hard to care about why it'sjust as important for your next
door neighbor to feel just asabundant and wealthy and to
(40:22):
check in in our community andour loved ones.
And the reason why I say thisis because inequality is
continuing to grow um on aglobal scale.
And I feel like with moreinequality, there creates more
division.
And I mean, without gettinginto the politics of this world
and where things are heading andgoing, um, well, actually, I I
(40:46):
do kind of want to touch alittle bit on that.
But yeah, you know, the theincreasing division, the wars,
right now, I feel like, youknow, there's um when there's
more inequality, when there'syou know richer people, a small
percentage of rich people, andthe larger population, a larger
percentage of people becomingincreasingly poor and being
pushed into these margins.
(41:07):
Um you'll find a lot of peoplewill start to point fingers.
Well, what's the reason forthis?
Oh, it's it's it's women, it'simmigrants, it's you know, um,
it's it's it's black people,indigenous people, like, you
know, we start to point fingers.
And really, I think what we'regoing through right now is
really just a class war.
(41:28):
Like a lot of people just arestruggling financially.
And out of that, like I said,creates it it it stems um, or
out of that, it creates, youknow, more violence, wars, um
political division, and peopleseep into, you know, going
(41:49):
further left, further right.
Um, and crime, like a lot ofpeople can attest to that.
I know there are so manystudies that show um in areas
where there's increasing wherethere's significant poverty,
there's a lot more crime, right?
And you know, someone comingfrom the black community,
sometimes we call this theghetto or the hood, you know,
it's and that can eventuallyspread.
(42:11):
And so even in Toronto,downtown Toronto, there's been a
lot of like random crimeslately.
You know, there's like aseven-year-old woman the other
day just getting groceries outof her car, and someone just
came and like stabbed her, andwe're seeing a lot of these like
random attacks.
And to me, when I see thingslike that, I really look at, I
really think it comes down tofinances, and a lot more people
(42:34):
are struggling.
And with a lot more peoplestruggling, you're just going to
see a lot more crime, violence,all of that.
And so the collective wealthconversation is talking about
well, if that is the case, andwe know that inequality, wealth
inequality creates more divisionand crime and violence, then we
all have an individualresponsibility to ensure that
(42:56):
our neighbors, our friends, ourloved ones are equally as well
off and taken care of.
Right.
And even it comes back to thatspiritual understanding of
reciprocity.
Capitalism is, in a sense, it Idon't think it its foundations
were built on some people wouldargue it's not really built on
exploitation.
I think the theory or thefoundational theory around what
(43:19):
capitalism was supposed to bewas that it was supposed to
award people the freedom, therights, and the liberties to,
you know, pursue um their ownvocations and also to own
property, right?
It was all about you can go andown whatever land that you want
and start whatever businessthat you want and do whatever
you want with your money, whichis great.
But really, what was supposedto happen too is that the rich
(43:41):
are supposed to redistributetheir income to create that
balance and to avoid that wealthinequality.
But of course, humans havefound ways to corrupt that and
to take advantage of the systemand to exploit it.
And so now we're in a situationwhere the rich can find
loopholes and maybe not paytaxes and all of that.
And so the wealth doesn't endup being redistributed.
(44:01):
And so the wealth inequalitycontinues to grow.
And that's sort of thelate-stage capitalism that we
see today and the you know, thesteep um corruption that we're
sort of experiencing.
So for me, it's like just asmuch as I love to empower women
to build wealth for themselves,how can we also ensure that with
(44:22):
that wealth comes greatresponsibility and ensuring that
we help uplift everyone elsearound us, too?
I mean, it doesn't, I mean,what kind of life would it be if
it was just one person livingon this earth and having all the
resources to themselves, youknow?
Um, I think that there's morethan enough resources, more than
enough abundance in this worldfor everyone to have their equal
(44:44):
share.
But it's just so the systemthat we're in creates this
illusion that there's notenough.
And so this collective scarcitysometimes funnels down into
individual scarcity.
But if we could start at theindividual and have people
realize no, there's more thanenough, we all could be equally
resourced.
And how can we create a societyin a world where where we
ensure that everyone else hasthe ability to see it that way
(45:09):
and has access to that and isable to also build out wealth in
a way that feels good?
Mary (45:14):
Yeah.
Well, I think you're right.
I think the system started witha good intention and with a lot
of things, it started to haveum sort of underpinnings that
would marginalize people.
And, you know, I'll say for thethird time, a conversation for
another day.
Um so if somebody's hearing yousay this and it's really
(45:37):
resonating, how might somebodystart to shift that mindset
towards something that's morelike a collective wealth idea?
Morgan (45:45):
Yeah, I love that you asked that.
Um, so many ways.
So, like one way is to justadvocate, to speak up, to, to,
to help educate other people.
Um, you know, for me, likebeing a holistic wealth coach,
um, that that is one of myparts, right?
Is is is teaching people how tobe financially abundant and
resource, financial literacy, alot of these, you know, the
(46:09):
practical aspects of buildingwealth we don't learn in school,
right?
And so I feel like that's kindof where I come in.
And I'm sort of doing my workto help the collective to wake
us up, to realize, yes, youknow, building wealth is
important.
This is how you do it.
Here's step one, two, three.
But then also just as importantis how can you feel good about
(46:29):
the money that's coming in andthe work that we choose to do
with this world and show up andensure that it's in alignment.
Um, another way is to donate ifyou do have that wealth
available to you, is to donatemoney, but also, like we
explored earlier, donate yourtime.
You know, you can volunteer ata shelter.
Um, yeah, with the homeless,uh, food banks.
(46:51):
So yeah, there's so many otherways.
Um, but I think it really comesdown to advocating when you
can, donating your time, yourenergy, um, and just sharing
what you know, your family, yourloved ones, what you're
learning about money, abundance,you know, all these great
conversations and topics that wecovered today, and just really
(47:12):
just enlightening people.
Mary (47:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Share the episode, people.
That was that's that's whatthat means.
Well, what a great conversationthis has been, Morgan.
Can you tell everyone a littlebit more about what you do and
where they can find you?
Morgan (47:28):
Yeah.
Um, so you definitely can findme on YouTube at Morgan
Blackman, my websitemorganblackman.com.
And I also have a Substack atuh the Wealth Letters, um, which
you can find.
It's better to kind of probablyfind it through my website or
my YouTube.
And um, yeah, so I'm a holisticwealth coach.
(47:49):
Uh a lot of the work I do iscentered around um working with
clients one-on-one or in a groupsetting.
So um actually one of my majorsignature offerings that's
coming up is um my wealth wallcourse.
So it's sort of two-part,twofold.
You can either take it as acourse or you can um enroll in
(48:12):
like this group coachingprogram.
It's the group coaching versionof the course, and that's going
to be rolling out in like thenext few weeks, um, closer to
the holidays.
Um, yeah, and that would belike my signature way of working
with me.
I have this framework calledthe wealth well.
So we look at wealth wellness,which incorporates um money
energetics.
(48:32):
So a lot of what we spoke abouttoday, um, identifying your
values, goal setting,manifestation.
And then my second pillar, wewould usually shift into wealth
strategies.
So that's like everything thatyou didn't learn in school,
right?
The financial literacy piece.
And then the last stage that weusually shift into or the last
pillar is um wealth creation.
So, how can we get creative andhow we bring in different types
(48:56):
of income?
Um, and how can we, based onyour energetic blueprint, figure
out like how you're supposed toserve in this world, like what
your purpose might be for somepeople who are maybe struggling
with that?
You know, a lot of people maybeare in jobs that don't feel
satisfying or don't feelfulfilling to them.
And so we explore like whatthat can look like.
Um, and I think that's alsoactually really important.
(49:18):
I know we, you know, maybe youwon't be able to dive deeper
into this right now, but um, inthe way that the world is kind
of shifting with AI and a lot ofjobs being replaced, I think
it's more important now thanever to um understand what it
looks like to have differentforms of income coming in and to
not just have all your eggs inone basket.
(49:39):
Um, because if a lot of jobsare gonna be replaced, then how
are we gonna earn an income?
And so, yeah, I think you know,starting to really embrace the
idea of um, you know, part-timesort of vocations that can bring
in an income, maybe starting abusiness and you know,
investing, things like that tosort of get creative and then
(50:01):
have money coming in a differentway.
So that's that's what weexplore and like the last the
foundational piece of my course,um, or as part of the
framework, my wealth wellframework.
So that's pretty much kind ofwhat I do and and where you can
find me.
Mary (50:14):
Well, and I will link the resources in the show notes so
nobody had to scribble anythingdown that you said.
And what what important workyou do?
And I think we need to startto, first of all, women have so
much power that we don'trecognize.
So I think empowering them inthis way, it sort of feels like
the sort of the last chapterbecause that's where we've been
(50:34):
kind of um kept down the most,or I call it, you know,
shrinking.
We shrink.
That's why I'm I call mypodcast No Shrinking Violets,
because take up your space.
And I think we've not known howto, or we weren't able to till
1973, fully take up ourfinancial space.
So now we have a lot to catchup on.
And I think the way that youcombine your knowledge, because
(50:57):
of course we do need thepractical part.
We need to understand how doyou plan, but all of that
underpinning it, the energy andthe mindset is, I think is you
cannot divorce that from any ofthis.
And so I think what you do isso valuable.
And I love that you were heretoday.
Thank you for being a guestwith us.
Morgan (51:17):
Oh, I appreciate that.
Thank you so much for havingme.
It's such a great convo.
I hope this is helpful to youraudience when they take
something away.
Mary (51:25):
Oh, I'm sure.
I'm sure.
And I do want to thank everyonefor listening.
I'd love if you'd take a minuteto rate the show or leave a
review.
On most streaming services, youcan just scroll to the bottom
of the episode.
I know it's confusing, um, butyou can leave a review usually
at the bottom with somecomments.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
So I grew up in a two-parent,single-income household with
four siblings.
I don't remember ever not beingable to have something I really
(00:49):
needed.
And somehow my dad not onlypaid off the house while I was a
teenager, he was able to fund astate college education for
each of us.
My mom went to two or threegrocery stores each week,
depending on what we needed,what was on sale, and what
coupon she had.
We never went on a vacation,except to the local amusement
park, and going to McDonald'swas a bi-monthly treat.
(01:10):
No other eating out unless itwas the rare visit to a diner.
But I do remember going for icecream several times in the
summer.
Believe it or not, though, Inever had pizza until high
school at a friend's house.
So needless to say, when Imoved out on my own, I knew how
to stretch a buck.
Although I never had a greatpaying job and sometimes had a
(01:31):
second job in the evenings, Iwas always able to travel when I
wanted to, and I rarely feltmoney pressure.
But I also loathe financialplanning.
It gives me the ick, so I'mgrateful that my husband loves
it.
The interesting thing is,although I was quite successful
in my career, I never thoughtmuch about the money I made.
And when I changed jobs a fewtimes throughout my working
(01:52):
life, I always made less moneybecause I was focused on the
work I would be doing, not thecompensation.
Yet I was always able to getpromoted quickly and do just
fine.
So you probably know by now Idon't love talking about money.
I do, however, love havingmoney that I want for my little
joys, like my expensive coffeebeans, pedicures every now and
(02:14):
then, and periodic dinners atspecial places with one
double-digit priced mixed drink.
Honestly, though, I'm prettyhappy with pizza and bar food
too.
Most of my life joys don'treally cost anything because
y'all know I'm a nature girl andall that.
So anyway, I always felt likemy work was about something
different than money.
And after reading something myguest wrote, I now 100% believe
(02:37):
it.
And I also have more insightabout why about why I don't love
talking about finances.
So I can't wait to talk aboutall this with her.
My guest today is MorganBlackman.
She's a holistic wealth coach,writer, and speaker who helps
soul-conscious women confidentlybuild wealth that's in
alignment with their values,vision, and energetic design.
(02:58):
Her signature approach blendsspiritual insight, wellness
practices, and practicalfinancial strategy.
You see why I can't wait totalk to her.
Empowering clients to reachhigher forms of alignment while
healing from the emotionalblocks that often stand in the
way of the abundance that getsthem there.
When she's not coaching, she'straveling the world, diving into
consciousness, expanding reads,and writing poetry, also
(03:22):
spending time with her lovedones.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Morgan.
Morgan (03:27):
Okay, thank you, Megan, for having me.
That was such a beautiful sortof life story that you shared
there.
Mary (03:33):
Oh, thank you.
Morgan (03:33):
I really love that.
Yeah, and pizza until highschool.
Mary (03:36):
Yeah.
How was that when you finallytried it?
Oh my gosh.
It was a revelation.
You know, I I think probablythey felt like knowing my
parents who are not livinganywhere, but knowing my
parents, they probably thoughtabout the ingredients and
thought we could make this for$1.50.
So they're they would never gobuy one.
Morgan (03:54):
But right, right.
I mean, homemade pizza probablydoes taste better than store
thought.
Yeah.
Mary (04:00):
But anyway, I made up for it throughout life.
So I've had plenty of pizza.
Um exactly.
So anyway, I usually start byasking my guests to talk about
kind of like the flashballmoments in their life that they
see that maybe have gotten themto where they are.
I think so.
For you, was there a narrativeabout wealth that you inherited
(04:22):
and maybe you had to overcome?
Morgan (04:24):
Right.
Yeah.
So I mean, kind of somesimilarities to your sort of
story or at least childhoodupbringing.
Um, I mean, my parents hadlike, you know, stable
middle-income jobs.
Um, we actually were able tomaybe take the occasional trip
once in a while.
Um, but yeah, I wasn't likestruggling in the sense that I
(04:44):
wasn't sure where my next mealwas going to come from.
Um, yeah, I always had like thebasics.
Um, but then the biggest thingthat stood out to me as a child
was that there were always a lotof arguments about money.
So that was a bit conflictingand a bit confusing because I
felt like, well, I hadeverything I needed and anything
that I asked my dad, he would,you know, get me.
(05:05):
I was a little bit of like adaddy's girl.
Um, but then behind the scenes,it's like there's all these
fights.
And then as I got older, Irealized a lot of these fights
money.
Um, and mainly because a lot ofthe lifestyle that we were
living was funded off of creditcards.
Um, not necessarily, notnecessarily saying that's good
or bad, but um, I mean, if itdoes cause fights and conflict,
(05:28):
then I guess yes, it would bemore the um the former, then
maybe it is a bit um of a stickysituation there and how my
parents um navigate their ownrelationship with money, right?
And maybe not in the healthiestof ways.
So for me, yeah, I think uhrelying on them was a different
story.
I think I kind of started tocarve my own sort of money
(05:50):
blueprint and understanding ofmoney once I got my first job at
16 at a Tim Hortons.
Um and yeah, that was when Iwas able to finally make money
for myself.
So it was like I'm not reallyrelying on them anymore.
I'm able to sort of make my owndecisions when it comes to
money.
And that gives a lot of likefreedom and liberation and being
able to just, you know, Iprobably blew a lot of my money
(06:12):
on clothes and food and makeup,you know, as like a 16-year-old
girl.
Like that's those were like thethree things.
Um, and yeah, I found a lot offreedom and joy in that.
I think it was only until Isort of got into university
where the financial realitiesof, you know, just being an
adult, being more responsible,knowing that at some point I'm
(06:33):
going to graduate and I'm goingto have a lot of debt.
And that was also the firsttime I also probably got my
first credit card.
So it was like, oh, you know,this is money that's not mine
that I'm using to now fuel alifestyle that I have to pay
back.
How can I be mindful aboutthis?
Um, and so there became a pointwhere I realized, okay, in
order to pay off debt, I have tomake sure I have some
(06:54):
consistent income coming in atall times.
So I've always been sort oflike the workaholic.
Um, I love to see money comingin.
So, sort of like yourself,having like one or two or even
three jobs, you know, likecertain like side hustles or
part part-time opportunities tobring in more income.
Um, so yeah, I feel like I'dnever, you know, I got to a
(07:16):
place, especially in university,where it was like, um, I had
enough, but I always felt like Icould have more, I could be
wealthier.
Um I felt like yes, I couldtake a trip if I wanted to, but
um, I still had to kind of lookto see if I had enough money,
you know.
So it wasn't like I was umcompletely um able to have all
(07:38):
the options available to me, youknow.
And so I think maybe eventuallyI'll kind of get into
specifically like my financialstory.
But yeah, those were like someof the few mindset sort of eras
I call them that sort of shapeme to eventually get to where I
am today.
Mary (07:54):
Yeah.
Well, you talk a lot aboutenergy and money, and this is
one one of the things I haveseveral things I would like to
explore with you if we havetime, but I that this is that's
one of the things because thatresonated a lot with me because
I think we can make the mistakeof thinking of money as just
dollars and cents.
(08:14):
But I think wealth is differentthan money, abundance is
different than wealth.
So these are the things that Ithink, especially for women, can
lower that, especially for me,the sense of like, ugh, like I
don't like talking about money,probably because a lot of the
work I've done has been humanservices.
(08:35):
And to me, trying to put avalue on that is very difficult.
And you know, we're usually notpaid well.
But I think I love the I lovethe way you talk about it.
So I want to read somethingthat you wrote because it really
named, I think, what Iexperience in my life, and you
summed it up in a way that I waslike, oh, okay, because I think
(08:59):
for me there's been a littlebit of shame around not liking
financial planning, not like thewhole money thing, but this
really reframed it.
So let me um let me read whatyou wrote.
Okay.
You wrote, abundance isn't justa balance sheet.
Abundance is having a neighboroffer you a ride when your car
(09:19):
breaks down.
It's a friend watching yourkids so you can rest.
It's the time, presence, andlove we exchange every day
without a dollar ever changinghands.
When someone offers to pets atyour dog in exchange for staying
at your house, that's money.
That's an energetic exchange.
When you give time, creativity,or care to your community, when
(09:40):
you receive joy, beauty, orpeace in return, that's
abundance, that's wealth.
I love that.
Morgan (09:48):
Thank you.
Yeah.
Um, maybe I can elaborate onthat a bit, I guess.
Mary (09:54):
Yes, please do.
Morgan (09:55):
Yeah.
So, I mean, I actually see wellthat abundance is sort of being
the same thing.
It's almost like, you know,same coin, but just sort of
opposite sides.
Um, yes, money figuratively, Imean, we live in this sort of 3D
material world.
Um, it's a resource like anyother.
And it's a way to exchange withsomeone else something of
(10:17):
value.
Um, but there are other ways toexchange something of value
without having to use thiscurrency or cash or you know
what we've sort of made it up tobe in this capitalist system.
So when we talk about theenergetics, for me, it's
understanding at the end of theday that everything is a
transaction, right?
(10:38):
We give and take like thisreciprocal sort of exchange.
And like I said, currencydoesn't have to be involved in
that.
So there are so many ways tofeel resourced without maybe
having to work or earn anincome.
And that does sound, you know,kind of crazy to some people.
Like, how can I do that?
But um, one example I like togive, I mean, you just shared,
(11:00):
you know, my uh quote and what Ihad said, you know, like maybe
someone's, you know, maybecarpooling with you and offering
you a car ride to work.
So you don't really have toworry too much about
transportation or having to buyor have your own car.
Um, there's kind of ways to getaround it, right?
And still feel resourced andsort of, yeah, get the
experience sort of that you wantout of life.
(11:20):
Um, when I was in New Zealand,maybe like two, three years ago,
I met a monk for the firsttime.
And yeah, it was really random.
Like I was just walking downthe streets of Auckland and some
girl was handing out flyers forthis like yoga event.
Um, and she's like, a monk'sgonna be there, you'll be able
to speak with him.
And I'm like, sure.
Like, who wouldn't want to, youknow, talk to some like highly
(11:43):
revered spiritual teacher?
And so I ended up going to theevent.
I was able to sit and talk withhim one-on-one.
But one of the things that hementioned that like really blew
my mind around just someonebeing able to be resourced, even
outside of like capitalisticframeworks, was um the fact that
he traveled so much to do thesespeaking events.
Um, but he's not allowed toaccept money.
(12:05):
Like he's not allowed to takean income.
And so I was like, how likelike how does that work?
Like, how do you pay for yourplane tickets and
accommodations, you know?
And pretty much he just saidthat he has a community of
people that care for him, youknow, and um maybe people who
are operating obviously within acapitalistic framework that
can, you know, provide for himin a way outside of that.
(12:28):
So, you know, his hisaccommodations, he's probably
staying with someone who maybeowns the yoga studio or is
hosting the event.
Um, obviously, probably wouldbe cooking meals for him, or
people in the community wouldbring would be bringing meals,
you know, for him.
Playing ticket, maybe a similarsituation.
So yeah, it was veryinteresting that like money
doesn't like ever touch hishand, yet he's fed, he has a
(12:51):
roof over his head, you know,connections.
And that's what I've eventuallycome to understand about you
know, wealth and feelingresourced.
Um I really want women to getto a place where they can be
resourceful and understand thatwhether you have a million
dollars or you know, a thousanddollars in your bank account,
(13:15):
um, it really comes down tofeeling good.
And that might require youhaving the right community, the
right support systems in placein order to, yeah, in order to
feel resourced and to feel goodabout the way that you're
showing up in your life.
Um, I want you to feel happy,you know, regardless of the
number that's in your bankaccount.
Although sometimes, yes, itdoes get to a point where you
(13:37):
need to be making a certainincome so that you can survive.
But I'm more interested in nowhaving a conversation as to how
could we get creative aroundcreating resourcefulness um
outside of yeah, what societytells you it should look like.
Mary (13:51):
Yeah.
Well, you're already doingsomething that I love.
You're using different languagebecause you're using the word
resource to being resourced.
And I never thought about itthat way.
And it's interesting because Ithink naturally, I think growing
up the way I did, there wasnothing fancy.
Like I never felt like I missedout on anything because we
always had what we needed.
We had a clean home, we werewell fed.
(14:13):
I got in my, you know, I had topay for grad school, which is
fine.
My dad at least got me started,which I realized later, not
many of my friends had thatopportunity.
So that I think for me, I neverworried like I wasn't gonna
have money.
I just kind of, I mean,sometimes it would be like, oh
(14:34):
man, I'm this things are alittle lean right now, but I it
never like hung me up.
And I think I always went intoit with this idea of I'm gonna
be fine.
And it's it's interesting thatthe first job I ever had was in
public schools.
And it was a it was awell-paying job.
I was there for almost 20years.
So when I left, I took a hugepay cut.
And my mom, who had grown upduring the depression, was
(14:56):
appalled that I would do thatfor my my professional
happiness.
And it was, I never lookedback.
Like my trajectory in my careerwas were some of the best
decisions I made.
But that idea of how can yougive up, you know, several, I
mean, it was over $20,000 atthat time was, you know.
(15:19):
So I'm wondering how do youhelp people start to shift from
like a scarcity mindset to oneof like energetic openness,
let's say.
Morgan (15:29):
Yeah.
Um, there's a few ways to sortof approach this.
Um one approach is, I mean,hearing your story, some people
naturally are just a bit more onthe minimalist side.
Like it sounds like you know,you mentioned just having enough
and being okay with justenough.
Um, most people aren't okaywith just enough, right?
Like we live in this sort of umescalator or treadmill kind of
(15:54):
society where you want more andmore and more.
And once you get to something,it's like the bigger home.
And, you know.
Um, so I think that's one thingis to shift from a scarcity to
an abundant mindset is startingwith gratitude, like recognizing
what you do have and that mostpeople have enough.
It's just we're sodisillusioned that you should
(16:16):
have more and that more is goingto make you happier.
Um, that might not necessarilybe the case, right?
So for you, taking the pay cut,um, the pay cut maybe wasn't as
big of a deal because, youknow, it still was maybe enough
for you to live, you know, acomfortable lifestyle and
allowed you to focus more on thepursuits of, you know, doing
(16:39):
something that fulfills you andthat you're passionate about and
that's serving others, right?
Um, so another thing that wecan talk about is um values,
right?
And I think a lot of people arespending in misalignment to
their values.
So um, you know, maybe yourvalues is family, but then you
(17:00):
maybe spent a lot of money on umthings to impress other people,
you know, for status.
And so maybe you can shift thatand say, hey, you know what?
Like I don't necessarily needthis to gain the approval of
people that aren't important tome.
And maybe a lot of this moneywill be best fit towards, you
know, spending on my family,maybe in terms of gifts or
(17:21):
hosting, you know, parties andcelebrations and gathering
people together.
And then you will feel muchbetter about your money and not
feel like, why is it that I'mmaking maybe X amount and I
still feel unsatisfied?
Because we see that a lot insociety.
People think, well, I have tomake six figures in order to
finally be happy and to enjoy mylife, when really it's more of
(17:44):
a misalignment that people havewith their spending and their
relationship with money.
So, yeah, so definitelypracticing gratitude, getting
clear on um, you know, what whatreally is of value to you.
And then um, I would say, yeah,just being clear on your goals
as well, too.
(18:04):
Like those would be the threethings.
Like what are you workingtowards and why?
Getting really clear on thatwhy.
And I think it's easier to getclear on that why once you have
your values and you truly knowyourself and why that's
important to you.
Then you'll start to realize,you know, maybe taking the pay
cut isn't as much of a big deal.
Or yes, maybe I do need to bemaking a little bit more so that
(18:26):
I can, you know, really show upin the way that I really want
to in my life and livecomfortably.
Um, but a lot of people I findand I feel like are living in
scarcity because they think theyneed to have a certain amount
of money to live this qualitylife, when really that that
quality life might just betrying to copy someone else's
blueprint, which does not fityours at all.
Mary (18:49):
Right.
Yeah.
Values are, I mean, they're soimportant in so many things.
And I think we sometimes thinkwe know our values, and maybe we
do, but we don't live by them.
And I think it's a sense oflike discomfort when we're not.
I mean, I'm the first to say, Ihave a lot of pairs of boots.
I am a boot girl, I loveclothing.
(19:09):
I am, I feel guilty though, ifI don't buy things on sale.
Like it's a weird thing, but Ido love clothing.
I love feeling good inclothing.
But there's sort of that weird,and I think that comes from,
again, growing up with you havetwo pairs of shoes and it's
fine.
And you know, so I think that'sit's that's some of the hang
(19:30):
up, um, I guess for me.
But I think that idea of reallyaligning what is important
because I know if I get too muchof something, then I start to
feel like, oh, this is like Ineed to get rid of some things
because it starts to feelunbalanced.
But it's funny you talk aboutgift giving because so my family
(19:51):
celebrates Christmas and I buygifts the whole way through the
year.
I have a relatively big family.
I love that so much.
And I don't spend, I don't needto spend a lot of money.
I feel like it's about what Ireally know people.
I like getting them thingsthey'll love.
I have like 35 rolls ofwrapping paper because I love
(20:11):
beauty.
I love beautiful paper andribbons and gift bags.
But ever almost every year, aconversation comes up and
somebody will say, Don't get meany gifts this year.
I don't have enough money.
And I I get so frustratedbecause I'm like, first, I don't
expect a gift.
That is not why I give gifts.
But it's so funny this um, thisidea we have that if someone
(20:34):
gives me a gift, I have to givethem one back.
And that is not like I'muncomfortable if you I it's not
a box to check.
Like when when people say it'slike December 23rd and they're
like, I just did all myChristmas shopping, I'm like,
what?
Like to me, that's checking abox.
I don't give to check the box.
I give gifts because I love todo it.
(20:55):
So there's an inequality therethat I think feels it's a and
it's an energy, I think.
Like I love that energy ofgiving.
Yeah, but that alwaysfrustrates me.
Morgan (21:05):
Well, it sounds like, yeah, it just sounds like coming
back to the uh that the art ofreciprocity.
I feel like some people think,oh my gosh, she's giving me
something.
I need to run and give thatperson back to sort of balance
things out.
But it's so interesting becausenot recognizing that the
person's gifting you becauseyou've already offered some type
of value into their life.
(21:26):
You know, it's like actuallyMary's the one that's trying to
balance out or cancel out thedebt in a sense, you know, the
energetic debt.
Um, but yeah, so often peopleare like, oh my gosh, you've
gifted me something.
Now I need to like rush andfind something and gift you.
And yeah, it is hard,especially with the holidays
coming up.
Um, I feel that pressuresometimes too, because I've gone
(21:47):
through seasons where I maybedidn't have um as much money as
I'd like in that season to giftin the way that I normally
would.
Um and I have a lot of niecesand nephews, and I'm like,
please, none of my brothers andsisters have one more job.
Give me a chance to catch up.
Um, but yeah, and then you knowwhat?
Like some of the best giftsI've gotten um didn't like money
(22:10):
wasn't involved at all, or likevery little.
Like, I I had a friend onetime, one of the best gifts, it
was like, oh, how do I explainit?
It was almost like, you know,those movies where in a movie,
but like someone gifts you likemaybe like a box and a box and a
box and a box, and you kind ofhave to like keep pulling things
out of it.
Sort of feels like a magictrick where you're just pulling
(22:30):
all these tissues out until youget to the actual gift.
And my friend had somethingsimilar like that, except it was
like a note under a note undera note, and it was like just all
these lovely things that sheadmired about me.
And then when you get to thebottom, it was like $20.
But honestly, like I didn'teven care if there was $20 at
the end of it.
It was just, you know, just thewords.
So sometimes like even just aheartfelt letter or a card.
(22:54):
Um, you know, maybe somethingthat you already have in your
home.
I always tell people,especially around the holidays,
like just get creative.
Like maybe you have thingsaround your home that, you know,
can be reused and or turnedinto a gift without feeling like
I have to go out there and buysomething.
Um, but yeah, I think it'sreally just like you said, it's
just gifting should just becoming from the heart.
(23:16):
It's not like an expectation.
And so many people feel like,oh, I have to, yeah, I'm
expected to buy something, togive someone something, even if
I may not have it.
And it's, you know, how can youget creative in finding maybe
it's offering your time, youknow, volunteering or yeah, so
many other ways to give people.
But it is interesting that youmentioned that like exchange,
(23:39):
people really get caught up inthe making sure that like it's
balanced out at all times rightaway.
Mary (23:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or how much should we spend?
It's like, hey, yeah, dude, Ifind things on sale.
So, but you know, you talkedabout time, and I think it's it
is it's being creative.
So I think about again thisenergy.
And thank you so much forsaying that, you know, I feel
like these people have given mesomething because again, I never
perceived it that way.
(24:05):
And for some reason, like justtalking about this, it feels
like a little emotional, like itbecause I think it's so
important to me to how I putmyself into the world.
But when I think about time andbeing creative, like if you
don't have a lot of money inDecember, then give me a little
voucher and we will get coffeefive times in the year.
That will cost you 20 bucks.
(24:25):
So I think it's just thinkingbecause time to me, especially
as you get older, is moreimportant.
And I know, like my sister didthis to for some of my nieces
last year.
She didn't give them a physicalgift.
She said, pick a place andwe're gonna spend the day
together.
I love that.
So I think that's where youhave to think outside the box of
what is a gift, because a giftis just you're giving something
(24:49):
that has energy, doesn't have tobe a exactly.
So I love that.
Morgan (24:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I love that too.
Actually, you're making methink of um even I feel like
I've noticed I've noticed thislately amongst um millennials,
Gen Zs, and how they spend theirmoney.
And a lot of people are havingthis shift um with you know,
spending on physical things andshifting more into spending on
experiences and moments andmemories, you know, versus just
(25:16):
like this one item that you buyand then like maybe you never
wear it again, or you know, itgets thrown into the back of a
closet.
Um, so I find it reallyinteresting.
A lot of people are starting torecognize and value um just
people and and community andspending quality time with loved
ones.
Mary (25:32):
Yeah.
And having worked in a college,I I retired from Penn State,
but I spent a lot of my careerworking, my later career working
in college.
And I've seen that shift injust looking at what does money
mean to young people?
What does working mean to youngpeople?
And when they when this trendstarted of like, you don't stay
in a job for 25 years, you know,it's it's horrifying to the
(25:53):
older generation, but it's thisnimbleness of like, well, I'm
not really satisfied here.
And it's a whole mind shift.
And I think along with that,there's a total mind shift in
what does it mean to make moneyand how I do it.
Morgan (26:09):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, a lot of younger people Ifind want more freedom,
flexibility.
Um, exactly what you said, likethis whole idea of retiring at
65.
You know, you go to school toget this job that you're in for
30 years and then you retirecomfortably.
Yeah, a lot of millennials arelike, no, I don't want to be
sold that dream anymore.
I want to live life now.
(26:30):
Like I remember someonementioning, like, what's the
point of waiting until 65 whenyour health is probably not the
best?
You know, if anything, youshould be living your best life
at 20, 30, your 40s, when you'relike able-bodied and, you know,
um, for most people, hopefully,are, you know, able-bodied and
able to do these things and totravel.
Um, so that's that's part ofthe work that I do.
(26:52):
It's like, how can we enjoyyour life today and not wait
until you're 50 or 60 or 70 toenjoy it?
Um, and I think a lot ofyounger people are getting
creative and in figuring outwhat that looks like, you know.
So with COVID, um, a lot ofpeople switched into working
remotely.
And then after COVID, a lot ofpeople realize no, I I really do
(27:12):
love this balanced lifestyle ofbeing able to, you know, maybe
not be glued to my computer, youknow, eight hours out of the
day.
You know, I can kind of breakthat up and go for walks and
like truly integrate self-careum and travel.
I could be working from adifferent country.
And so um the options sort ofmultiplied, you know, for people
(27:32):
and people realize, oh shoot,like they've kind of been
selling us this one linear wayof living life, and there's so
many different ways to do itnow.
Um, and as yeah, and and aslong as you know what you want
and what you value and how youknow your money should be
aligned in alignment to that,then I feel like it's it's more
than possible than ever toreally create that abundant,
(27:55):
sort of flexible lifestyle thatcreates that freedom that most
people want.
Mary (27:59):
Yeah.
And when you talk about energyor meaning for for money, I
think when we look at oldergenerations, they did have a
rough time.
I mean, it was exchanging workfor money often, hard work, you
know.
So I think there's a there's amemory of that.
And I don't want to get too farinto epigenetics, but we carry
(28:20):
certain things on our genes andit expresses or does it's not a
genetic change, but sometimesthat that hard work that, you
know, I need to get this muchper hour because I have to feed
my kids, and there were so manydifferent things involved in
what was work.
And now as we open up into thiswhole new world of, like you're
(28:41):
saying, like we can work onlineor we, you know, for me, I miss
actually working in person.
I loved having a staff, I lovedgoing to work.
And now I could, you know, Iretired, I decided to do my own
business, I didn't have to.
Now I'm actually looking atgoing back to work for someone
else because there are thingsthat I didn't do that I want to
do.
And so I think for me, it'salways exploring.
(29:02):
But I want to take a littleside road here because one of
the things that I noticed insome of the things that you
talked about is this idea ofwomen feel hyper-independent
with money.
Because let me tell you alittle bit about.
So for me, I remarried lessthan three years ago.
My husband's a little bitolder, his wife had died.
(29:23):
Um, I always supported myself.
Even in my first marriage, Iwas the one that, you know,
really sort of financed thefamily.
So he brought a pretty decentincome with him.
So my whole world shifted.
And at first I was like, I wantyou to keep your money
separate.
He's like, what are you talkingabout?
I'm like, because I especiallybuilding a business, like, I
(29:46):
want this to be my money.
And he's like, well, I don'tthink about it that way.
So for me, that's been a bigjourney of seeing, of allowing
someone else to give things tome that actually ease some of my
decisions.
Making so what is your take onthis?
Tal talk a little about whywomen have this issue.
Morgan (30:07):
Okay.
Um so personally, I think forme as a woman, um, I can't speak
to everyone else.
I have an idea as to why otherwomen feel this way, but for me
personally, I think there is uma distrust amongst maybe
sometimes women and men.
(30:28):
I mean, growing up, seeing alot of conflict between my
parents, seeing a lot ofconflict between the other woman
in my family and the distressthat men cause.
I have like my own kind ofwounding around, you know,
relationships and men.
And I think for me, myhyper-independence came out of
not wanting to rely on somebodyelse and someone to have that
(30:50):
control over me, right?
So if I'm not making any moneyand this one person is the only
person making money andcontributing to the household,
they're gonna have a larger say.
Um, and I feel like I'm at riskof, you know, my own safety,
um, mentally, emotionally,spiritually, physically, because
(31:13):
this person has so much morepower um in this sort of
dynamic.
And so I think for me, thehyper independence came out of I
never want anyone to have thatopportunity to abuse me or to,
you know, have that control.
And so it's important for me tomake sure that I'm financially
independent.
But then there is it, it doescome to a point where sometimes
(31:35):
um, yeah, then you don't want toever open yourself up to maybe
someone contributing or helpingbecause of that fear that might
not necessarily be true ornecessary, right?
And that's something I've hadto, as I've gotten older, um,
you know, a part of my sort ofum healing that wounding around
(31:56):
men and dating and relationshipsis learning to trust and that I
don't have to do everythingmyself.
And that, you know, often wework better as a team, you know,
like when we talk aboutcollective wealth building and
community, um, that's that's apart of it, right?
Finding a teammate, finding apartner that can help ease some
of the burdens financially,spiritually, mentally,
emotionally, right?
(32:17):
So I've had to come to learn toknow, yeah, it's okay to maybe
share finances, or there will beseasons where maybe you're
making more, or you know, yourpartner's making less.
And then there's another seasonwhere they're making more and
we're making less.
And it's it's really at the endof the day about really coming
together and just being moreresourceful together than
(32:37):
separate and apart.
Um, and I think for most women,um well, for some women that
might also be their story too,in terms of like that
hyper-independence and feelinglike they have to do everything
themselves.
Um yeah, and then for um otherwomen, it could just be um maybe
(32:58):
they I don't know, maybe theyjust feel like they don't have
that support system, and so theyhave no choice.
It's really just, you know,it's it's you know, maybe
they're single mothers, youknow, that really don't have
much of the support system.
And so that's all they've knownis to kind of fend for
themselves and to um maybe notask for help because maybe they
(33:20):
feel like they could just dothings better or there's no help
available.
So that's yeah, that's sort ofjust their situation, and that's
all that they can do.
But at least for me, I canyeah, that's that's sort of
where my hyperindependence comesfrom and how it relates to
money.
Mary (33:34):
Yeah.
Well, and I think it's beinglet down too.
Sometimes it's like, well, I'mjust gonna do it myself, or or I
sort of went into this secondmarriage thinking there's always
scorekeeping, but there is notwith my husband.
And I had to get used to that.
It wasn't like, well, youbought this, or you know, like,
well, why did you do that?
We have never had an argumentabout money.
(33:56):
And I think it's just gettingused to that idea that sometimes
there are people out there thatdo have that generousness of
heart.
It's just, and he sees money.
He loves the financial planningpart of it, which is great.
But apart from that, he doesn'tsee it as transactional.
It's more just like this is ourshared ability to make life
(34:18):
decisions, which is reallybeautiful.
So the other part of this withwomen, do you feel like women of
color especially have a hardertime with the hypervigilance or
okay?
Morgan (34:30):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, definitely blackwomen once again.
I think there's more of thisnarrative of um not feeling safe
um amongst um maybespecifically men or just not
feeling supported.
Um, yeah, there it's it'salways been a conversation
within the black community of umthis larger scarcity mindset of
(34:56):
like not wanting to supportsomeone else, because if you
support someone else, they'regonna get ahead and you're gonna
fall behind.
Um, and you know, of course, wesee this in other spaces as
well, too.
But I think it's very umpredominant within the black
space and community.
And it could be, you know, arange of things.
Um, one of those beingcollective trauma and um
(35:17):
slavery, and already just blackpeople feeling farther behind.
So it's like we're sort of in aspace where we're trying to
catch up, um, you know, to thosewho have more privileges.
And so it's like I can't affordto, you know, have this other
person do better than me or makemore than me because I have a
family to feed and I'm trying toget ahead in this capitalist
system.
(35:37):
Um, so I feel like that iswhere a lot of maybe, you know,
the the hyper independence iskind of rooted in um for black
women specifically.
And yeah, just like I said, aswell, just like not feel like
they have safe spaces when itcomes to relationships.
That's a whole notherconversation as well.
There's a lot of uh domesticviolence and abuse um and
(35:57):
cheating within the blackcommunity as well.
A lot of black men areincarcerated.
Um, I shouldn't at least say ita lot, but there there is a you
know, um a significantpercentage.
I'm not really sure what thepercentage is, but I do know I
would probably say between maybelike 30 to 40 percent of black
men are incarcerated.
So that's like another issuewhere there are a lot more um
(36:20):
single family homes, a lot ofsingle black mothers trying to
navigate that, which can be hardfinancially.
So yeah, um, definitely I wouldsay black women really do
struggle when it comes to theirfinances and finding support
systems for sure.
Mary (36:37):
It's really complex.
And I think with all of this,it's what are we bringing
historically to the table, toour way of thinking?
And really, if we talk aboutwomen as a group, we're often
set up as competitors anyway.
There's just, you know, we'rewe're competing.
I think uh again, historically,it was we're competing for men,
which that was the resourcebecause in the United States,
(37:01):
it's only been 50 years that wecould coast like sign for a loan
just for ourselves, buy house ahouse for ourselves, a credit
card, exactly.
Yeah.
So there's a lot, I think, thatbeing aware of what we carry
with us and understanding thatsomeone else's experience is not
our own.
I mean, you brought you bringup a lot of things that
obviously I didn't experience,but I think there are shades of
(37:23):
that just as being women, butthere's so much deep, there's
such a deeper um aspect to itbecause again, we've seen
grandparents and parents andfriends, all of these things
that were sort of part of ourspecific community impacting
this whole narrative of what ismoney and what is safe.
(37:44):
You talked about safety, whichis really important because I've
talked to women in abusivesituations and we don't talk
about financial abuse, but whyare women stuck a lot of times?
Because they don't control themoney.
So I think we can get into alot more, which we don't have
time for today, but I think it'sa really fascinating discussion
to have some grace withyourself.
(38:05):
And when we see someone elsestruggling, it's not like, oh,
why didn't you learn this inschool?
Can't you like add and subtractand budget?
And it's way, way more thanthat.
Morgan (38:16):
Oh deeper than that.
Mary (38:18):
Yes.
100%.
Morgan (38:20):
Yeah.
unknown (38:20):
Yeah.
Morgan (38:21):
Yeah, for sure.
Sorry, yeah, to cut you offthere.
Yeah.
And I I think that's somethingI didn't speak on um in quite
detail.
But yeah, women relatively havenot been financially
independent.
Um, it's only been maybe thelast, like you said, a hundred
years or so, or yeah, between 50to 100 years, where you know,
women increasingly have steppedinto the workforce, are starting
(38:43):
to make an income forthemselves, have you know the
flexibility and the freedom andthe options now available to
them to do what they please withit.
So yeah, it is relatively newfor us.
Um, and so definitely we doneed to show ourselves, you
know, a lot of compassion andgrace for maybe sometimes still
getting it wrong.
Um, but yeah, I think there'ssomething really beautiful to
(39:06):
that to, you know, to reallyearn money and manage our money
and live our lives in a wayoutside of what, you know, this
oppressive system once taught uswhat it should look like.
And no longer women feelinglike, well, I can only just stay
at home and cook and clean.
Like, no, I could do so muchmore.
I can contribute so much moreto this world, and money just
allows me to do even more ofthat on my own terms.
Mary (39:29):
Yeah.
And ironically, we end upthinking we have to do
everything.
I think there are women thatthey choose to stay home and
raise their kids, and that's thelegacy they're putting into the
world.
There are also women thatthink, well, I do have to raise
the kids and I do have to go towork and I do have to clean the
house.
And so, yeah, again, uhconversation for another day.
But one more thing I want toexplore.
You mentioned something aboutcollective wealth.
(39:52):
So can you talk aboutcollective wealth building
versus individual wealth?
What does that mean?
Morgan (39:59):
Oh, yes.
Okay, I get so excited for thistopic.
Um, so yeah, it's justindividual wealth is focused on
your own pursuits towards wealthbuilding and feeling abundant.
But so often I feel like we welive in a world now where it's
very hard to care about why it'sjust as important for your next
door neighbor to feel just asabundant and wealthy and to
(40:22):
check in in our community andour loved ones.
And the reason why I say thisis because inequality is
continuing to grow um on aglobal scale.
And I feel like with moreinequality, there creates more
division.
And I mean, without gettinginto the politics of this world
and where things are heading andgoing, um, well, actually, I I
(40:46):
do kind of want to touch alittle bit on that.
But yeah, you know, the theincreasing division, the wars,
right now, I feel like, youknow, there's um when there's
more inequality, when there'syou know richer people, a small
percentage of rich people, andthe larger population, a larger
percentage of people becomingincreasingly poor and being
pushed into these margins.
(41:07):
Um you'll find a lot of peoplewill start to point fingers.
Well, what's the reason forthis?
Oh, it's it's it's women, it'simmigrants, it's you know, um,
it's it's it's black people,indigenous people, like, you
know, we start to point fingers.
And really, I think what we'regoing through right now is
really just a class war.
(41:28):
Like a lot of people just arestruggling financially.
And out of that, like I said,creates it it it stems um, or
out of that, it creates, youknow, more violence, wars, um
political division, and peopleseep into, you know, going
(41:49):
further left, further right.
Um, and crime, like a lot ofpeople can attest to that.
I know there are so manystudies that show um in areas
where there's increasing wherethere's significant poverty,
there's a lot more crime, right?
And you know, someone comingfrom the black community,
sometimes we call this theghetto or the hood, you know,
it's and that can eventuallyspread.
(42:11):
And so even in Toronto,downtown Toronto, there's been a
lot of like random crimeslately.
You know, there's like aseven-year-old woman the other
day just getting groceries outof her car, and someone just
came and like stabbed her, andwe're seeing a lot of these like
random attacks.
And to me, when I see thingslike that, I really look at, I
really think it comes down tofinances, and a lot more people
(42:34):
are struggling.
And with a lot more peoplestruggling, you're just going to
see a lot more crime, violence,all of that.
And so the collective wealthconversation is talking about
well, if that is the case, andwe know that inequality, wealth
inequality creates more divisionand crime and violence, then we
all have an individualresponsibility to ensure that
(42:56):
our neighbors, our friends, ourloved ones are equally as well
off and taken care of.
Right.
And even it comes back to thatspiritual understanding of
reciprocity.
Capitalism is, in a sense, it Idon't think it its foundations
were built on some people wouldargue it's not really built on
exploitation.
I think the theory or thefoundational theory around what
(43:19):
capitalism was supposed to bewas that it was supposed to
award people the freedom, therights, and the liberties to,
you know, pursue um their ownvocations and also to own
property, right?
It was all about you can go andown whatever land that you want
and start whatever businessthat you want and do whatever
you want with your money, whichis great.
But really, what was supposedto happen too is that the rich
(43:41):
are supposed to redistributetheir income to create that
balance and to avoid that wealthinequality.
But of course, humans havefound ways to corrupt that and
to take advantage of the systemand to exploit it.
And so now we're in a situationwhere the rich can find
loopholes and maybe not paytaxes and all of that.
And so the wealth doesn't endup being redistributed.
(44:01):
And so the wealth inequalitycontinues to grow.
And that's sort of thelate-stage capitalism that we
see today and the you know, thesteep um corruption that we're
sort of experiencing.
So for me, it's like just asmuch as I love to empower women
to build wealth for themselves,how can we also ensure that with
(44:22):
that wealth comes greatresponsibility and ensuring that
we help uplift everyone elsearound us, too?
I mean, it doesn't, I mean,what kind of life would it be if
it was just one person livingon this earth and having all the
resources to themselves, youknow?
Um, I think that there's morethan enough resources, more than
enough abundance in this worldfor everyone to have their equal
(44:44):
share.
But it's just so the systemthat we're in creates this
illusion that there's notenough.
And so this collective scarcitysometimes funnels down into
individual scarcity.
But if we could start at theindividual and have people
realize no, there's more thanenough, we all could be equally
resourced.
And how can we create a societyin a world where where we
ensure that everyone else hasthe ability to see it that way
(45:09):
and has access to that and isable to also build out wealth in
a way that feels good?
Mary (45:14):
Yeah.
Well, I think you're right.
I think the system started witha good intention and with a lot
of things, it started to haveum sort of underpinnings that
would marginalize people.
And, you know, I'll say for thethird time, a conversation for
another day.
Um so if somebody's hearing yousay this and it's really
(45:37):
resonating, how might somebodystart to shift that mindset
towards something that's morelike a collective wealth idea?
Morgan (45:45):
Yeah, I love that you asked that.
Um, so many ways.
So, like one way is to justadvocate, to speak up, to, to,
to help educate other people.
Um, you know, for me, likebeing a holistic wealth coach,
um, that that is one of myparts, right?
Is is is teaching people how tobe financially abundant and
resource, financial literacy, alot of these, you know, the
(46:09):
practical aspects of buildingwealth we don't learn in school,
right?
And so I feel like that's kindof where I come in.
And I'm sort of doing my workto help the collective to wake
us up, to realize, yes, youknow, building wealth is
important.
This is how you do it.
Here's step one, two, three.
But then also just as importantis how can you feel good about
(46:29):
the money that's coming in andthe work that we choose to do
with this world and show up andensure that it's in alignment.
Um, another way is to donate ifyou do have that wealth
available to you, is to donatemoney, but also, like we
explored earlier, donate yourtime.
You know, you can volunteer ata shelter.
Um, yeah, with the homeless,uh, food banks.
(46:51):
So yeah, there's so many otherways.
Um, but I think it really comesdown to advocating when you
can, donating your time, yourenergy, um, and just sharing
what you know, your family, yourloved ones, what you're
learning about money, abundance,you know, all these great
conversations and topics that wecovered today, and just really
(47:12):
just enlightening people.
Mary (47:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Share the episode, people.
That was that's that's whatthat means.
Well, what a great conversationthis has been, Morgan.
Can you tell everyone a littlebit more about what you do and
where they can find you?
Morgan (47:28):
Yeah.
Um, so you definitely can findme on YouTube at Morgan
Blackman, my websitemorganblackman.com.
And I also have a Substack atuh the Wealth Letters, um, which
you can find.
It's better to kind of probablyfind it through my website or
my YouTube.
And um, yeah, so I'm a holisticwealth coach.
(47:49):
Uh a lot of the work I do iscentered around um working with
clients one-on-one or in a groupsetting.
So um actually one of my majorsignature offerings that's
coming up is um my wealth wallcourse.
So it's sort of two-part,twofold.
You can either take it as acourse or you can um enroll in
(48:12):
like this group coachingprogram.
It's the group coaching versionof the course, and that's going
to be rolling out in like thenext few weeks, um, closer to
the holidays.
Um, yeah, and that would belike my signature way of working
with me.
I have this framework calledthe wealth well.
So we look at wealth wellness,which incorporates um money
energetics.
(48:32):
So a lot of what we spoke abouttoday, um, identifying your
values, goal setting,manifestation.
And then my second pillar, wewould usually shift into wealth
strategies.
So that's like everything thatyou didn't learn in school,
right?
The financial literacy piece.
And then the last stage that weusually shift into or the last
pillar is um wealth creation.
So, how can we get creative andhow we bring in different types
(48:56):
of income?
Um, and how can we, based onyour energetic blueprint, figure
out like how you're supposed toserve in this world, like what
your purpose might be for somepeople who are maybe struggling
with that?
You know, a lot of people maybeare in jobs that don't feel
satisfying or don't feelfulfilling to them.
And so we explore like whatthat can look like.
Um, and I think that's alsoactually really important.
(49:18):
I know we, you know, maybe youwon't be able to dive deeper
into this right now, but um, inthe way that the world is kind
of shifting with AI and a lot ofjobs being replaced, I think
it's more important now thanever to um understand what it
looks like to have differentforms of income coming in and to
not just have all your eggs inone basket.
(49:39):
Um, because if a lot of jobsare gonna be replaced, then how
are we gonna earn an income?
And so, yeah, I think you know,starting to really embrace the
idea of um, you know, part-timesort of vocations that can bring
in an income, maybe starting abusiness and you know,
investing, things like that tosort of get creative and then
(50:01):
have money coming in a differentway.
So that's that's what weexplore and like the last the
foundational piece of my course,um, or as part of the
framework, my wealth wellframework.
So that's pretty much kind ofwhat I do and and where you can
find me.
Mary (50:14):
Well, and I will link the resources in the show notes so
nobody had to scribble anythingdown that you said.
And what what important workyou do?
And I think we need to startto, first of all, women have so
much power that we don'trecognize.
So I think empowering them inthis way, it sort of feels like
the sort of the last chapterbecause that's where we've been
(50:34):
kind of um kept down the most,or I call it, you know,
shrinking.
We shrink.
That's why I'm I call mypodcast No Shrinking Violets,
because take up your space.
And I think we've not known howto, or we weren't able to till
1973, fully take up ourfinancial space.
So now we have a lot to catchup on.
And I think the way that youcombine your knowledge, because
(50:57):
of course we do need thepractical part.
We need to understand how doyou plan, but all of that
underpinning it, the energy andthe mindset is, I think is you
cannot divorce that from any ofthis.
And so I think what you do isso valuable.
And I love that you were heretoday.
Thank you for being a guestwith us.
Morgan (51:17):
Oh, I appreciate that.
Thank you so much for havingme.
It's such a great convo.
I hope this is helpful to youraudience when they take
something away.
Mary (51:25):
Oh, I'm sure.
I'm sure.
And I do want to thank everyonefor listening.
I'd love if you'd take a minuteto rate the show or leave a
review.
On most streaming services, youcan just scroll to the bottom
of the episode.
I know it's confusing, um, butyou can leave a review usually
at the bottom with somecomments.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
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