May 22, 2025 • 47 mins
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Dr. Robin Buckley reframes women's power as something inherent rather than something that must mimic masculine ideals, encouraging listeners to identify and pursue what they truly want without apology. She shares practical strategies to help women embrace their natural strengths and overcome societal conditioning that limits their potential.
• Understanding how power is stereotypically portrayed in media as masculine
• Redefining women's power as the ability to articulate and work toward personal desires
• Recognizing that women aren't afraid of power but rather the unfamiliar feeling of power
• Creating a "Resume Review" file to train the brain to overcome self-doubt and imposter syndrome
• Reclaiming "feminine wiles" as strategic strengths rather than manipulative tactics
• Applying professional leadership skills to personal relationships using a business model
• Breaking the perfectionist mindset that prevents women from pursuing opportunities
• Embracing the "go fly the plane" mentality instead of requiring 100% readiness
• Using small, manageable steps to overcome overwhelming feelings when pursuing goals
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
If I say women's power, whatimages come to mind?
Do you picture Rosie theRiveter with her sleeve rolled
up, showing her bicep?
Do you visualize a woman with asneer and a shaved head
(00:52):
standing with her foot up on aconcrete block or the corpse of
a foe?
If what you saw in your mind'seye was anything similar, it's
not surprising.
Our culture has a very specificidea of what power looks like.
And it's not surprising.
Our culture has a very specificidea of what power looks like
and it's typically masculine.
Did you ever look at print adswith an eye on how men and women
are portrayed?
(01:12):
Men often look stony-faced,with a strategic five o'clock
shadow and shoulders squaredtowards the camera.
They take up their space.
Women in ads Often smiling,sometimes with the slightly
seductive finger hooked in thecorner of her mouth, eyes often
downcast, because haven't all ofus at some point been told that
(01:33):
our power is knowing how to useour feminine wiles?
And when women do face thecamera unsmiling, they are often
wearing masculine outfits orcounteract the look of power by
either being partially unclothedor excruciatingly thin.
And, by the way, thin does notmean powerless.
(01:54):
Even ads for children mirrorthese stereotypical portrayals
of masculine power and femininedemureness.
When I think of women's power,I think of the natural strength
that nearly all of us have.
First, we grow humans in ourbodies.
Historically, women have beenpowerful healers, and even that
was a source of fear.
(02:14):
Women were literally killed fortheir knowledge.
Women are often able to expressemotion and have the ability to
navigate painful feelings inour heart and our bodies.
Hello menstrual cramps.
And raise kids, go to work orany other number of life tasks
we have on our plates.
To me, I love being a woman,with all the messy and complex
(02:36):
ways we feel, the nuanced rolesembodied in being a woman and
the way we find strength in ourfriendships and joy and beauty.
But, Mary, you might bethinking what's wrong with
finding inspiration from Rosiethe Riveter Nothing but power is
much more than that, and evenas I'm saying this, I'm fighting
my urge to reassure any menlistening that they are okay too
(02:59):
.
I'm sure that's socialization,and we're going to touch a bit
on how that might play into awoman's way of being in
male-female intimaterelationships.
So let's get to it.
I am in awe of the knowledge andwork of my guest today, Dr
Robin Buckley.
For one, y'all know I havetalked about the art of
combining mental health trainingwith coaching, so I admire her
(03:22):
insight in combining education,training and expertise in both
clinical psychology and coachingto support her work with
clients.
Robin focuses on theapplication of cognitive
behavioral strategies to mentalwellness in the workplace and
women's equity and empowerment.
She also developed herproprietary coaching model to
(03:42):
guide individuals and couples tothe lives they want.
Her work as an expert in thefield has been featured on
multiple media platforms,including Entrepreneur Chief
Authority Magazine, nike, and onthe 2023 TED stage.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets,Robin.
I'm really looking forward totalking today about women and
(04:04):
the concept of powerMe too, mary, one of my favorite
topics.
Okay, I probably say take upyour space in nearly every
episode of my show, but I alsorecognize in my work as a
therapist that many women don'treally have an idea what that
means for them and they oftendon't know how to do it.
(04:25):
Or I think sometimes women feellike we need to be one way in
our career and another way inour intimate relationships.
So could we start with firstyour journey to where you are
today, working with andeducating women about accessing
their power.
Robin (04:44):
My journey is a real simple story.
It was maybe a little cliche,but it was my mom.
My mom was a strong, one of thestrongest people I've ever met,
and she raised me and my sisterto follow.
And then, on top of it, I hadtwo daughters.
So my world has, from the verybeginning, been been focused on
(05:04):
thinking about women and girls,how to empower them, how to and
I'll use your catchphrase totake up space.
To take up their space, to usetheir space for what they want,
which is a word most women arenot familiar with or comfortable
with saying is this is what Iwant.
So when I went into my PhDprogram in clinical psych, I
(05:27):
really do love psychology, butthe intervention crisis based
model that is in traditionalpsychology or therapy didn't
resonate with me as a person,because my mom raised me that
there's always a solution.
You keep working hard until youfind the solution that works
for you, and coaching alignswith that very much.
(05:48):
It's very proactive, it's verygoal-centered and it aligns
really well with my backgroundin cognitive behavioral strategy
.
So it was a really easydovetail for me.
And then I continued to get towork with the population I
really love, which is women, orwomen within their relationships
.
Mary (06:06):
And I think that is such an advantage.
When women can start with arole model, that's strong, and
what a great thing then to passon to your daughters.
So I don't know if what I saidin the intro, I don't know if
that's often what you hear orexperience in your work with
women, but when you think of thewords powerful woman, what
(06:31):
comes to mind for you?
Robin (06:33):
Well, I said it earlier, it's when a woman can clearly
articulate and work towards whatshe wants.
It isn't about demandingtowards what she wants.
It isn't about demanding I mean, you can demand it, but it's
taking the steps that are partof truly achieving what you want
in your career, in yourpersonal life, in your sex life,
(06:56):
in your everything.
That, to me, is power, andthere's no judgment when one
life for one woman looks verydifferent from the life for
another woman.
Who's to say, I mean, if that'swhere she finds power, if
that's where she can claim whoshe really is, not living up to
some standard or portraying somerole, but it truly getting to
(07:21):
that point of like this, this is, this is who I am truly getting
to that point of like this iswho I am, this is what I want
and this is what I will do toachieve it.
That to me is powerful.
Mary (07:39):
So what happens when a woman doesn't have the role
model you have?
Because I think a lot of peoplefirst of all think of a
powerful woman and I think of alot of stereotypes from movies.
They think of this woman asscary, but I also think women
sometimes are scared of theirown power.
What do you think about that?
Robin (07:57):
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
I don't know if I would agreethat they're scared of their own
power as much as they're scaredof that feeling of power.
And I'll explain.
We aren't typically socializedand indoctrinated into the idea
of what does power feel like, sowhen we start to feel that it's
uncomfortable, it's unusual,we're not used to it, and all of
(08:19):
a sudden we pull away from it.
That's where I think it'sdifferent, that we're not scared
of power, but we're not used tothat feeling.
And anytime any human has anexperience that is uncomfortable
or unusual, we tend to run awayfrom it.
Our brain says, nope, that'snot our comfort zone.
So we pull back.
You know, speaking up forourselves or promoting our ideas
(08:42):
, giving ourselves credit, thoseare not things that, for many
women, we are trained andconditioned to do, and so when
we do it, all of a sudden it'slike, oh, and our amygdala,
which is the part of our brainthat creates fear and anxiety,
imposter syndrome, tells us no,no, no, no, that's not your
place.
Pull back.
And for many women we might.
(09:03):
But so I don't think we fearpower.
I think we fear the unusualfeeling of power if that makes
sense.
Mary (09:12):
Oh, it totally makes sense , and I also probably referenced
the amygdala in half myepisodes because it really is a
well, it's a smoke.
I say it's a smoke detectorthat goes off when the toast is
burning.
The house isn't burning down.
But we think these littlethings, even as you're saying a
little step, can feel like ohwait, this isn't where I'm
(09:36):
supposed to be, this isn't mylane.
Robin (09:39):
Right, exactly, yeah, I the amygdala to me.
And I don't know, I'm not surehow candid I can be, but I'll
just say it.
Very often I'll talk to myclients and I'll say our
amygdalas can be assholes and ifwe don't train our amygdala to
settle down, let our prefrontalcortex kick in.
Our amygdala is going to runaround like a toddler on
(10:00):
caffeine and that will controlour lives.
And for women, like a toddleron caffeine and that will
control our lives and for women.
We sink into that then and weare filled with worries and self
doubt and insecurity and allthe things that undermine us and
deplete our power.
So the earlier we can retrainour brain in general, our
amygdala specifically, thebetter it gets.
(10:22):
And one of the things thatamazes me when women talk about
you know power and and thatsocialization.
And when we were off off scriptearlier, mary, you said this
phrase, feminine wiles, and Igotta tell you I push back so
hard when people say it's a badthing.
I understand that in our societywe have created this idea of
(10:45):
some temptress who uses herfeminine wiles to do someone.
But when you really look up theword wiles, wiles can
absolutely mean being devious,but it can also mean being
cunning and using strategies tomanipulate situations to get
what they want.
And I talk to my clients a lotabout the idea that the term
(11:08):
manipulation has been reallydemonized in our society.
Yes, we know what manipulationcan look like.
We know it can be harmful andevil and everything in between.
But I also talk about positivemanipulation.
What do you know about someoneelse so that you can positively
manipulate the situation toachieve the goal you want?
(11:30):
And in those situations, it'snot about being evil or being
hurtful, it's about using yourfeminine wiles, because one of,
in my book, feminine wiles areour strengths, our strategies
that we are good at.
And women are really good atconnecting with people we are
(11:50):
really good at.
We have a higher EQ than youknow, in a generalized way, than
men.
So why wouldn't we use thesecunning strategies to then
achieve a goal?
As long as no one's being hurt,as long as no one is, you know,
putting themselves beforesomeone else in a way that's
going to damage a relationshipor the other person, I say go
(12:13):
for it.
So feminine wiles to me I tryand reclaim that term as no good
use your wiles, use yourcunning, use what you know and
embrace it, because as a woman,we can do things in different
ways and sometimes in betterways than men, just as they,
they also have different andbetter ways of doing things than
women.
Mary (12:33):
I 100% love that you said all that Because.
I have said often that womenhave developed, and I think it
partly is our brain.
Our brains are just different,and so I don't know how much of
that is epigenetic, I don't knowhow much of it is.
You know our socialization,whatever, but we can read a room
(12:54):
.
We have leadership qualitiesthat have been so underestimated
.
Exactly, you know and you knowbetter, certainly better than I,
in the work you do that most ofwhat we see as held up as good
leadership styles are masculine,correct.
So I love all of that.
(13:15):
I've been in situations as aleader where I feel like having
emotion is so helpful, agreed,and so, yeah, I think that we
see things in ways, becausewe've developed to read the room
, we've developed that sense of,for better or worse.
(13:38):
How are we doing?
How are people receiving this?
And I think even if someoneisn't receiving it well, that
doesn't mean that we're theproblem.
Robin (13:48):
Exactly when we think of it, and I love that you brought
up the idea of this ideallychanging standard of what
leadership looks like.
You know, the newer research onleadership is looking at the
importance of vulnerability andtransparency and that team
connection, and those are thingsthat women are really really
good at.
(14:08):
So you know, again, I willembrace the phrase of feminine
wiles.
Yes, use your feminine wiles toachieve the goals that you're
looking for.
Your organization is lookingfor whatever, but absolutely use
what you have.
Mary (14:24):
Yeah Well, and I think by pointing this out, you're
pointing out something importantin that we have made that term
feminine wiles be somethingthat's manipulative in a in a
bad way, like we're trying toweaponize it, and I think that's
what has happened so often andI think that's a two a little
(14:49):
bit where the fear comes in.
When you have good girlfriends,the way that you share
information and sort of emoteand lean into each other and
support, and I think when youcan bring some of that
professionally into theworkplace, I think there are
some people it scares the hellout of them.
Robin (15:07):
I agree.
But again, it scares thembecause it's the unknown, it's
not the norm and you know, ashumans and if we're talking
about the amygdala, the amygdalais definitely evolved to keep
us away from unknown, novelsituations, because there's fear
in that and it could bedangerous.
So when you have a leader thatdoes not look like what a leader
(15:29):
quote unquote should look like,yeah, that's going to be scary.
So whether it's women pullingaway, whether it's men or
non-binary individuals rejectingit because it is something
foreign, there's a rationalexplanation for it.
It doesn't justify it, itdoesn't give it credence to keep
(15:49):
moving forward, but it doesexplain it.
And if people can have thoseconversations to say, oh, this
feels weird to me, but let's tryit out, let's go for it, let me
get used to it, that's where Ithink the intersection of
understanding and acceptance canreally happen.
Mary (16:07):
So I'm thinking of something that I would love to
get your thoughts on.
When we talk about the amygdala, it will also look for things
where it can say see, I told youso.
I think sometimes when we getrid of our guardrails and that's
something I've talked aboutbefore get out of your lane, get
into the lane you want to be in.
Sometimes when we do that, thebiggest pushback comes from
(16:30):
other women.
That's been my experience and Ithink we are set up sometimes
to we're set up sort of as womento be competitive in ways that
we don't need to be, and I'mcurious about if you see that in
your work or what your thoughtsare on that.
Robin (16:51):
Yeah, that's a great question, Mary, and I struggle
with it.
I've gotten that question beforeand I know where it comes from,
but I really tend to sink intothe idea that that is an
outdated stereotype that justkeeps proliferating, that women
aren't really competitive, and Idon't see that very often in my
(17:15):
work.
I hear the stories but they tendto be and as I've done this
work, more and more so I hearthem less that women and maybe
because they are starting toembrace their power and embrace
their differences from thestandard, you know, view of
leadership or teamwork orwhatever it might be.
But I see women being moresupportive and whether it's in
(17:41):
career, whether it's in personallife I hope that I'm not being
naive.
My husband says I'm often aPollyanna and I only want to see
the good, and I don't disregardthat.
I'm like, yeah, I'm okay withthat, but I do think when I'm
looking at from you know, I'm inthe generation Gen X and I'm
looking at the millennials andI'm looking at the Gen Z I think
(18:04):
each generation is gettingbetter in terms of women
supporting each other andaccepting whatever each
individual woman's choice is,and I really I appreciate that
about the younger generations.
I love seeing it in mygeneration and I hope I'm not
just being delusional.
Mary (18:31):
I don't think you are.
I think it is getting better.
But I myself have had some ofthose experiences.
But I've also had some of mymost supportive friendships come
from the workplace workplaceand people too that were sort of
equal equal to where I was, andso if I advanced or they
advanced, there truly was asense of supporting that,
(18:53):
because someone else's successdoesn't diminish our success,
Exactly.
Robin (18:58):
That's exactly it, and you know to me and I get it.
You know I don't see it ascompetitive.
Sometimes it's flat outjealousy when I'm like, oh, how
did she already get her bookpublished and mine is still in
the process of, you know, beingpublished by the end of the
summer.
And then I remind myself, okay,what can I do to support her?
And maybe in the future there'ssomething she can do to support
(19:20):
me.
So it doesn't have to be justbecause of the quid pro quo, but
it's more.
Eventually there are ways thatwe will support each other, and
that's been my experience.
Every time I have that thoughtand I remind myself it's like,
okay, what can I do now to helpthat person in this moment, even
if it's just celebrating theiraccomplishment, you know, on
(19:41):
social media or with an email orwhatever it might be, because
knowing that eventually, if Ineeded something, I could
probably reach out to that sameperson, and I love that.
It's almost like having youknow, your own pit crew, where
you know it's like, okay, youmight not need them every time
you go around, but maybe at somepoint you're going to stop and
(20:01):
you're going to need thesepeople to jump in.
And because you've establishedthat relationship with them.
They'll do.
Mary (20:08):
And that's true, and I also wonder too if we see it
differently.
So, in other words, if we runup against that jealousy,
competitiveness, whatever youwant to call it with other women
male colleague because there'ssort of a different setup, a
(20:35):
different playbook I call it aplaybook a different playbook
that we're handed in how to getahead.
Or you know, I've talked onthis show about invisible labor
that women do in the workplace.
We do a lot of stuff that wedon't get paid for, but it's
connecting and we don't.
So many of us don't think inthose terms.
(20:55):
We do it because I know I didit because it felt good to
connect, but it's not cunning,it's not strategic, it's
exhausting.
Robin (21:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Now I think that when we justgenuinely embrace the idea of
support versus competition, itgets easier in that regard, when
we just are naturally just likeokay, what can I do, how can I
help, where can I be without andI will qualify this without
(21:24):
depleting ourselves, becausewomen are really good at that
too Let me do everything foreverybody, and then I got
nothing left for me, and that'salso a challenge.
Mary (21:34):
Yeah, because it goes back to those strengths that we have
.
So I had someone on the showwho's actually a friend of mine
and she said she's very good atseeing all the potholes that are
coming in her organization, andshe said I had to get very good
at staying in my lane.
Those aren't my potholes tofill, right, exactly.
Yeah, we anticipate, we can.
(21:55):
We tend to be able to seethings in ways that maybe
someone who is male or has amale brain doesn't really see in
the same way, right?
So that's yeah, that strengthcan be our undoing.
So I'm thinking that there arewomen who maybe have been taking
a role that is more let me dothe pothole filling, let me do
(22:19):
the invisible labor but theywant to advance or they want to
step into power a little more.
So what are some ways that theycould start to do that?
Robin (22:30):
Well, I think the first thing that helps and again, not
to say ad nauseum about theamygdala, but the amygdala
really does undermine ouroptimal functioning and our
goals.
So one strategy, one reallyconcrete strategy that I
encourage certainly everyone todo, but definitely women, is to
create a resume review.
(22:51):
And the resume review has lotsof purposes.
But essentially when I talkabout it I will get clients who
say, oh Robin, that's cute, andI'm like, okay, but let me tell
you the neuroscience behind thiscute strategy.
So the strategy itself iscreating either a physical or
electronic file ofaccomplishments, of reminders of
(23:14):
how amazing you are.
So it could be notes fromclients or students, it could be
articles about you, it could beperformance reviews, it could
be diplomas, whatever indicatesjust how remarkable you are.
I've had clients who createshoe boxes.
I've had clients who createshoeboxes, I've had clients who
create binders and then, ofcourse, electronic files.
(23:36):
So that's the first step youcreate, you start to put in
artifacts and if it's anelectronic file, you can take
pictures or whatever works best.
So that's step one and that'sactually the step that most of
my clients have an easy timedoing right away.
They're quick to it, they'reusually very excited to do it.
Step two is the harder step,and step two is that you review
(24:01):
the resume review Some of myclients call it their me file at
least once a month and inharder months, once a week.
You sit down and you don't skimthrough it, you read and you
look at and you pay attention toevery word, every item that's
in it and ideally, you also addto it, because if you don't
continuously add new things,your brain's going to get bored,
(24:24):
and that's when we stop doingthings, when our brain is bored.
And then, finally, you makesure that when you're reviewing
everything, you are notdistracted, and that is also
something my clients have a hardtime.
That's step three, not beingnot doing it, you know, really
quick, before they go to work orbut actually making the time,
(24:46):
scheduling it on your calendarso that that information, the
data that's in your me file,gets into your brain.
That information, the datathat's in your me file, gets
into your brain Because here'swhy this isn't just a cute
strategy or a, you know,personal affirmation approach.
The reason you want that data inyour brain and why it's
important to review it regularlyand add new information is
(25:06):
because in those moments whenyour amygdala is creating the
anxiety, self-doubt, insecurity,imposter syndrome, all that
stuff.
You want that information to beeasily accessible to your
prefrontal cortex, which is yourrational, strategic part of
your brain.
You want your prefrontal cortexto say no, you know?
No, of course we deserve to behere.
(25:27):
Yes, we definitely get to askfor that raise because remember
all the amazing things we'vealready done, so why wouldn't we
?
But if we don't give thatevidence to the prefrontal
cortex, if we don't make it easyfor our rational part of our
brain to access it, our amygdalais going to take over.
So when we feel thatnervousness to go talk to a boss
(25:49):
or a supervisor, when we feelthat anxiety because we're about
to step out of our lane, wewant a rational part of our
brain to have quick and easyaccess to information that
demonstrates hell yeah, this isour power and we not only
deserve it, we want it.
Mary (26:08):
Yeah, that's a great way to make something very obvious,
rational, because we also tendto focus on things that are
negative.
So in our mind maybe there wasa meeting where we said
something and it wasn't receivedwell and that takes up 80% of
our brain and all the greatstuff has been a dusty little
(26:30):
corner.
So two things occurred to me asyou were talking.
The one is and I do not knowpercentages, but when men look
at a job description they willsay, okay, I have like what 60%
of these skills I'm going toapply.
And a woman is like, oh my gosh, I only have like 90% of these
(26:51):
I can't apply Right.
Robin (26:54):
I have a great story, mary.
It only happened a couplemonths ago.
So my sister has two kids.
She has a 23-year-old daughterand a 21-year-old son and I love
my niece and nephew.
But they were having a randomconversation over lunch a couple
months back and my sister andmy niece start talking about how
(27:15):
they'd always love to fly aplane and they're like, oh yeah,
but it's expensive and you knowI'd have to take lessons.
And my nephew says, oh, I couldprobably fly a plane.
And my sister looked at him andshe said, you mean after
lessons?
He's like, no, I think I couldfigure it out with with no
arrogance, just completeconfidence.
And she said wouldn't that beamazing to be born into a world
where you're just like, yeah, Ican do that.
(27:35):
And it was such a cleardemonstration to me of, oh my
gosh.
That is how it often again as ageneralization often goes,
where men are just superconfident, maybe overly
confident, and in the case of mynephew that's obvious that they
can just do something, andwomen are like, oh, I need it
all laid out, I need 100 percentready, and then I'll do it.
(27:57):
And often we miss our shot.
Then.
Mary (27:59):
Yeah, I never really thought about it, but I totally
was that person.
If I would look at a jobdescription, I'd be like, oh I
don't know, there's this onething and I don't really have a
lot.
It never occurred to me thatsomebody else would look at that
and be like oh yeah, I got mostof this, I'm going to go for it
.
Robin (28:17):
Yeah, so in my family now the catchphrase is go fly the
plane, go fly the plane, just gofly the plane, just try it,
which of course I wouldn'tadvocate.
I would take the lessons, butthe analogy is there of no, just
go for it.
Mary (28:29):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a great story.
The other thing that occurredto me as you were talking, and
because you use cognitivebehavioral stuff, I really think
that women's irrational beliefsunderneath all of this have a
very different flavor than men's.
Do you agree with that?
Can you explain that a littlebit more, mary Sure?
(28:50):
So I'm thinking of I don't knowif you've heard of Dr Claire
Zahmet, but she talks about acoaching model that is
specifically for women, that incoaching we tend to give very
concrete steps.
That's sort of the hallmark ofcoaching.
It's not as much let's reallydive into things like therapy,
(29:10):
but it's more goal directedaction steps.
And she comes from a place ofsaying, well, that is not as
effective with women becausesort of what we're talking about
, that they'll see these stepsand be like, oh, but I don't
really know if I have enoughskill to do that or so, and so
(29:33):
from my past life said that I'mnot very good at this thing.
So sometimes that landsdifferently for women, because
underneath our thoughts arethese beliefs of I don't have
the stuff it takes to besuccessful.
Robin (29:49):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I've never really thought aboutthat.
What I've seen with my coachingclient, my female coaching
clients, is when the steps areoverwhelming or seem just
completely out of their realm,is we break them down almost
into minutia like super small,very manageable, smart goals,
(30:13):
basically, where you know we'renot, we're not going to try for
the bigger thing, we're notgoing to try for the the, even
the objective, we are just goingto do this one action, step.
And that tends to break downany of the worries or the self
doubt, because it's just onething, one thing.
I mean it's kind of like when Ihad a client recently and she's
(30:34):
been talking to me for a whileabout wanting to be physically
healthy and she's been on thispath of well, my husband works
out two hours a day.
I should work out two hours aday.
I'm like why?
Why is that the standard, firstof all, and you might not even
need that and you may needsomething different.
So I finally said to her acouple of months ago.
I said, how about we just aimfor, you know, five to 10
(30:56):
minutes a day?
She's like Robin, that'sridiculous, that's not going to
achieve my goal, I said, butneither is not doing anything.
So maybe we just start supersmall, and that's okay, and
that's still a hundred percentimprovement, a hundred percent
progress, and you slowly buildon that.
And with women also, I thinkmaybe a little more important, I
(31:17):
don't know, maybe I could seethat where we do explore, what
are the thoughts, what are theconcrete thoughts that bubble up
when you feel this emotion,when you feel the emotions that
are getting in the way?
What's the thought behind it?
Because often, you know, wedon't when I say we as humans,
we don't stop to think about,okay, what's the thought
(31:37):
creating the emotion?
Because emotions just don'thappen, they don't come out of
nowhere and they certainly aresomething we can control.
But it all, all of that happensonly if we can identify what's
the thought that created it.
And once women can identify, asyou said, you know, oh, this
person made this comment aboutme years ago it's like, oh, okay
, now is that still valid?
(31:58):
Is that still rational?
Was it ever valid?
And we can really dissect it.
Mary (32:03):
Yeah, Well, and I keep going back to your nephew so
this idea of maybe men see theplane in the air and women see
all the steps it takes to getthe plane in the air, yep,
because we're practicallythinking, well, I can't just
like climb in there and it'sgoing to take off.
(32:23):
And again going back toevaluating ourselves when we
want to apply for a job, we'relooking at every little step on
that.
Robin (32:31):
Typically, Instead of the step that's right in front of
us, yeah, and then, knowing thatwe will, we'll deal with it as
we go, we'll figure it out as wego.
I agree, I don't think mostwomen are good with that
fluidity of I don't know, let'ssee what happens.
We like our plans Again, and weare speaking in generalizations
(32:52):
, of course, but I think womenare very good at creating that
organization and that planfulapproach and while that's
wonderful and can work in manysituations, it's not going to
work in every situation.
Mary (33:06):
Yeah, and I think there's a little bit too of just how do
I want to say it, sort of notjust self-belief, but I think if
you look at something and it'slike, oh, I could be a project
manager, like I could do that,and then we look at all the
objectives that are under that,and then we start to doubt.
But I think if we can go withthat idea of like heck yeah, I
(33:29):
could be a pilot, or heck yeah,so that may be where we get hung
up a little bit and yeah.
Robin (33:35):
Yeah, I had another.
I had a client that I workedwith many, many years ago and
when I started working with hershe was 75 and had done all the
things raised her family, gaveup her career to raise her
family, went back to a careerand at 75, she was meeting with
me because she had been pushedout of her company and she said
(33:57):
you know, when we were settingup, what do you really want?
What have you always wanted?
She's like I always wanted toget my doctorate.
And I said okay, so what's yourplan?
She's like oh no, I'm too old,I'll probably die before before
I get it done.
And I'm like but what if youdon't die?
And I must've said that I don'teven know hundreds of times.
What if you don't die?
What if?
Cause?
That was always her.
Well, you know I won't have thetime and I won't have this and
(34:19):
I won't be able to enjoy it.
I'm like but what if you couldenjoy it?
What if you do live, get it andbe able to enjoy it?
And after a while, her brain,her prefrontal cortex, started
hearing it and she said I don'tknow what if?
So about a year after westarted working together, she
enrolled in a doctoral programand she did it for four years.
She achieved her goal and lastI knew she, I think, is probably
(34:45):
now 85, 86, somewhere aroundthere, but she did it.
But she had to get past that,the what ifs, the blocks that
were getting in her way, andsaid let's just remove the
blocks and say let's see, let'ssee what happens.
Mary (34:58):
Yeah, wow, that's so cool.
Robin (35:01):
Yeah, it's so cool.
Mary (35:02):
Yeah, at that age, to, yeah, to seek you out and say I
still have this.
Robin (35:07):
One other thing yeah, that's one other thing.
And she, yeah, she was amazing.
Mary (35:11):
That's great.
So I'm going to take an exitoff our little highway that
we've been driving on and Imentioned this in my intro.
But I think sometimes and I'veknown women like this that they
will wear a different sort ofhat or they have this different
persona in their career, in theworkplace, when it comes to
(35:32):
power, and a very different wayof being when they are in, I'll
say, a male-female intimaterelationship.
That's what I've perceived, andI know you do.
Couples work and I love thisidea of a business model, so
could you talk a little bitabout do you see this dynamic
and how do you address that?
Robin (35:54):
I do see this dynamic, and I do see it in men too, but
more predominantly in women, ormore visibly in women that you
know they're one way at work, interms of powerhouse, you know,
amazingly confident sometimes,at least outwardly, sometimes in
their heads or not, but theyjust are able to dominate in
such a positive way.
(36:15):
And then they come home andthey take on either the standard
role or they forget all thethings that they just did at
work and they don't translatethem into their relationship.
So, after years of working withyou know some really incredible
I've had such the fortune andhonor working with such
incredible women and listeningto them talk about work, and
(36:36):
then inevitably they will alsotalk about their personal
relationships, which is a bigdifference between my male and
female coaching clients, becausemen very rarely bring up their
personal life when they're therefor executive coaching, which I
find fascinating, but women do,and they would talk about
problems with their significantother or they would talk about
problems within their families.
(36:57):
And my question started to bewell, tell me how you do it at
work.
Well, what do you mean, robin?
Well, how do you manageconflict at work?
How do you talk to othermanaging partners at work, you
know, and how do you?
Oh, that's different, ron,that's not the same thing.
I don't.
I can't do that at home.
And my question was always why?
Why can't you do exactly thesame or use the skills, the
(37:18):
abilities, the feminine wilesyou do at work and apply them
into your personal relationship?
And most women would stop andsay I don't have an answer for
that or I don't know, orsometimes I get.
Well, love is different and loveis not different.
Love is a relationship and ifyou're coming at it from the
perspective of relationshipmanagement, then it doesn't
(37:38):
matter if you're in theprofessional setting or personal
setting.
So I then created a frameworkaround making turning your
marriage or your significantrelationship into a business,
and not that we're throwing loveand sexual attraction out the
window, but those are the bellsand whistles and those are the
things that are going to beenhanced.
If we have that foundation thatis more strategic, more planful
(38:03):
and for a lot of couples itworks very well and it's very
different than therapy, which iswhat many of the people who end
up working with me are looking.
They're looking for somethingother than therapy, because
therapy doesn't work for everycouple, usually for couples who
don't want to dive into the pastand don't have a need to dive
into the past, or don't reallywant to get caught up in a lot
(38:26):
of emotional conversations.
They want something that ismore objective, and my framework
does seem to work in that way.
Mary (38:34):
Yeah, I know our society has a lot of trouble with
anything that mightde-romanticize a marriage.
Robin (38:42):
Yeah, and I got to tell you I use it in my relationship.
I've worked with couples whouse it and the opposite is, what
happens is when you have thatstrong foundation, the romance
and the feelings of love and thefeelings of sexual attraction
they really increase, becauseyou've taken out the
miscommunication and theoverstepping or the just
(39:06):
struggles that get in the way,because I don't know about you,
mary, but when my husband and Iare struggling over something I
don't feel as attached to him, Icertainly don't want to have
any kind of physical contactwith him.
So if you can remove that orloosen it, then all that other
stuff just gets more fun.
Mary (39:24):
Yeah, Well, there's definitely a role for cognition
in marriage and I can say that,as being older and having got
remarried recently, it's adifferent approach and there is
a very healthy part of it thatis transactional I mean, it's
you know.
So I love that idea and I thinkyou actually do.
(39:46):
You have a book that's comingout, or is the Marriage Inc book
?
Is that already out?
Robin (39:51):
No Marriage Incorporated will be out by the end of the
summer, and it's.
You know, I've written otherbooks in different genres, but
this is the culmination of this15 years of creating this
framework that I have I amreally proud of, and I'm proud
of it because it it just talksabout such a important part of
our lives, our personalrelationships, in a very
(40:11):
different way but with veryconcrete strategies.
It's not just a book that talksto this theoretical idea, it's
here are some activities you cando, here are some worksheets,
so it's very hands-on, which Idon't know In the self-help
books I like.
I want something that's verytangible to take away and to
practice the strategies that arediscussed in the book.
(40:33):
So that's how I reallystructured my book.
Mary (40:39):
Well, I try to do that in each episode.
I mean I like people to leavewith something that they can,
you know, an action step,exactly.
But I saw that.
So it's Marriage Incorporated,the Boardroom Blueprint for a
Lasting Love, correct, which youget that love in there in the
title.
So that's good, right.
I have 3000 books in my house.
(41:00):
I love books so much, so I'vealready put a little asterisk
beside this.
So you said it's coming out.
Did you say end of summer?
Robin (41:06):
Yeah, it's actually available for pre order right
now it's it's just in the finalstages of tweaking and editing
as, as people who have writtenbooks know, the fun part, but
yeah it'll be out by the end ofthe summer and you have a really
cool buffet of books.
Mary (41:25):
I mean, you have a child children's book.
Robin (41:27):
Right, I do.
I am definitely one of thosepeople that when I just enjoy
and want to do something, I dotend to follow up.
So my children's book was basedon a real life story about my
husband and one of our dogs, butit's all about this little boy
who has a thinking spot,somewhere where he can go to
process his emotions.
(41:47):
So it's again.
The cognitive, behavioral stuffis there.
It's just from a child'sviewpoint.
And then and I worked with areally talented young
illustrator she was still inhigh school when I started
working with her, so that wasjust fun.
And then the other book that Ilove is called Voices from the
Village, which was actually aproject I created regarding my
daughters because I realizedwhen they were probably middle
(42:09):
school age, eventually they maynot want to hear everything from
their mom.
So I sent out a survey tofriends and family just saying,
with one question, what is theone piece of advice you would
give to a girl on the verge ofadulthood?
And the cool part was thatpeople got so excited about it
they ended up sending it toother people and it traveled the
world.
So I got responses fromstrangers and then just compiled
(42:30):
it into a book, essentially formy daughters, but certainly
it's.
It's also on Amazon, so it's,it's been fun.
This, this new Marriage Inc.
It has a different gravitas forme because it's so much my
life's work.
And, yeah, if anybody'sinterested, that is available on
(42:51):
my website for preorder andthen it'll be out.
Mary (42:54):
That's great and I will definitely have your website
linked in my show notes and Ilove your Voices from the
village idea because I workedwith college.
Well, I worked in high school.
I started as a high schoolcounselor and then I
transitioned to college and Ijust love working with young
adults.
Like it's really where I think,my, my heart is, and so I love
(43:17):
that idea of giving messages togirls as they are on the verge
of adulthood.
That's very cool yeah.
Robin (43:24):
I think one of my favorite parts about writing
that book was so my daughters asall of us are, my daughters are
very different and one has iton her shelf and I know she
reads it, but there's noevidence.
My younger daughter's hilariousbecause she is very much like
her mother and her copy isflagged and dog-eared and has
(43:45):
post-its and has writing in itand I'm like, yep, that's
awesome.
So I love that they were to me.
They represent what I hope alot of girls or women have
gotten from the book where it'sjust it's either a reference
when you need it, or women havegotten from the book where it's
just it's either a referencewhen you need it or it's it's a
battered book that is carriedwith you but um, yeah, it's deaf
(44:05):
.
Mary (44:05):
That was definitely a project of love yeah, what a
cool thing for them to have thatphysical thing that you created
.
That's so cool they're prettycool.
Robin (44:14):
They were, they were, um, they were also super supportive
about my ted talk and, forthose of you who know it or are
going to go look at it, it'sincredibly personal, incredibly
vulnerable and to have mydaughter say, no, mom, put us in
Like we're happy to be part ofit.
And they were in the audiencewhen I delivered it, when it was
first a TEDx talk, and they'reproud that I speak on such
(44:40):
personal, intimate topics, evenwith and I got their permission
before I put them into my TEDtalk and they were like, yes,
why wouldn't you?
And I'm like that, I'm, I'mproud that they are those type
of women.
Mary (44:52):
Well, and you can do the teaser, because I know what
you're, I know what you did.
Do the teaser, robin, do it.
Robin (44:59):
The title of it is why I Got my Teenage Daughter a
Vibrator, and it is the way Iusually tell people is.
It's about female empowerment.
It's about women truly owningtheir bodies and their lives,
and it's certainly more thanjust sexual devices.
Mary (45:20):
Yeah, well, and Emily Nagoski, who I've talked about
on this show, writes wonderfulbooks about women.
Just like use a mirror to getto know what your body looks
like, because we don't know.
And so this we don't need to goon this whole tangent because
we can have another episode thatstarts right now we don't need
to go on this whole tangentbecause we could have another
(45:41):
episode that starts right now.
But that's the whole thing, thatfor so long we have abdicated
the control of our own body, andgosh, that's another place
where we need to hold our powerCorrect.
So to get back to topic at handand you also have really cool
(46:02):
workshops I know there's the youtalk about mental health in the
workplace, you talk aboutwomen's equity, so you have that
information on your website too, if somebody wants to look for
a presentation or coaching orthat kind of thing.
Robin (46:13):
Correct.
Yeah, it's I.
I've had the benefit of beingable to get into some
organizations that you knowworldwide just through webinars.
So I do things virtually, I dothings in person.
It's just fun.
It's a lot of variety that getsout the same messages but in
different ways that work thebest for people or organizations
(46:34):
.
Mary (46:35):
Yeah, and I've looked at some snippets of it.
I think you've built suchwonderful options to help people
, so it's very cool, and I knowthat we took a few directions
that we didn't anticipate, so Ilove that you were along for
this ride.
It was a fun conversation.
Robin (46:52):
Thanks, Mary.
Mary (46:52):
I enjoyed it too, and thank you to all of you for
listening.
One of the best things aboutthis podcast is the listeners
and the community that we'recreating.
If you have someone in yourlife that you think would
benefit from the informationthat we shared today, please
forward the episode to them and,if you love listening, consider
joining the Growing Garden ofViolets and support the show
(47:14):
using the heart button or thelink at the bottom of the show
notes, depending where you'restreaming from.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Thank you.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
If I say women's power, whatimages come to mind?
Do you picture Rosie theRiveter with her sleeve rolled
up, showing her bicep?
Do you visualize a woman with asneer and a shaved head
(00:52):
standing with her foot up on aconcrete block or the corpse of
a foe?
If what you saw in your mind'seye was anything similar, it's
not surprising.
Our culture has a very specificidea of what power looks like.
And it's not surprising.
Our culture has a very specificidea of what power looks like
and it's typically masculine.
Did you ever look at print adswith an eye on how men and women
are portrayed?
(01:12):
Men often look stony-faced,with a strategic five o'clock
shadow and shoulders squaredtowards the camera.
They take up their space.
Women in ads Often smiling,sometimes with the slightly
seductive finger hooked in thecorner of her mouth, eyes often
downcast, because haven't all ofus at some point been told that
(01:33):
our power is knowing how to useour feminine wiles?
And when women do face thecamera unsmiling, they are often
wearing masculine outfits orcounteract the look of power by
either being partially unclothedor excruciatingly thin.
And, by the way, thin does notmean powerless.
(01:54):
Even ads for children mirrorthese stereotypical portrayals
of masculine power and femininedemureness.
When I think of women's power,I think of the natural strength
that nearly all of us have.
First, we grow humans in ourbodies.
Historically, women have beenpowerful healers, and even that
was a source of fear.
(02:14):
Women were literally killed fortheir knowledge.
Women are often able to expressemotion and have the ability to
navigate painful feelings inour heart and our bodies.
Hello menstrual cramps.
And raise kids, go to work orany other number of life tasks
we have on our plates.
To me, I love being a woman,with all the messy and complex
(02:36):
ways we feel, the nuanced rolesembodied in being a woman and
the way we find strength in ourfriendships and joy and beauty.
But, Mary, you might bethinking what's wrong with
finding inspiration from Rosiethe Riveter Nothing but power is
much more than that, and evenas I'm saying this, I'm fighting
my urge to reassure any menlistening that they are okay too
(02:59):
.
I'm sure that's socialization,and we're going to touch a bit
on how that might play into awoman's way of being in
male-female intimaterelationships.
So let's get to it.
I am in awe of the knowledge andwork of my guest today, Dr
Robin Buckley.
For one, y'all know I havetalked about the art of
combining mental health trainingwith coaching, so I admire her
(03:22):
insight in combining education,training and expertise in both
clinical psychology and coachingto support her work with
clients.
Robin focuses on theapplication of cognitive
behavioral strategies to mentalwellness in the workplace and
women's equity and empowerment.
She also developed herproprietary coaching model to
(03:42):
guide individuals and couples tothe lives they want.
Her work as an expert in thefield has been featured on
multiple media platforms,including Entrepreneur Chief
Authority Magazine, nike, and onthe 2023 TED stage.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets,Robin.
I'm really looking forward totalking today about women and
(04:04):
the concept of powerMe too, mary, one of my favorite
topics.
Okay, I probably say take upyour space in nearly every
episode of my show, but I alsorecognize in my work as a
therapist that many women don'treally have an idea what that
means for them and they oftendon't know how to do it.
(04:25):
Or I think sometimes women feellike we need to be one way in
our career and another way inour intimate relationships.
So could we start with firstyour journey to where you are
today, working with andeducating women about accessing
their power.
Robin (04:44):
My journey is a real simple story.
It was maybe a little cliche,but it was my mom.
My mom was a strong, one of thestrongest people I've ever met,
and she raised me and my sisterto follow.
And then, on top of it, I hadtwo daughters.
So my world has, from the verybeginning, been been focused on
(05:04):
thinking about women and girls,how to empower them, how to and
I'll use your catchphrase totake up space.
To take up their space, to usetheir space for what they want,
which is a word most women arenot familiar with or comfortable
with saying is this is what Iwant.
So when I went into my PhDprogram in clinical psych, I
(05:27):
really do love psychology, butthe intervention crisis based
model that is in traditionalpsychology or therapy didn't
resonate with me as a person,because my mom raised me that
there's always a solution.
You keep working hard until youfind the solution that works
for you, and coaching alignswith that very much.
(05:48):
It's very proactive, it's verygoal-centered and it aligns
really well with my backgroundin cognitive behavioral strategy
.
So it was a really easydovetail for me.
And then I continued to get towork with the population I
really love, which is women, orwomen within their relationships
.
Mary (06:06):
And I think that is such an advantage.
When women can start with arole model, that's strong, and
what a great thing then to passon to your daughters.
So I don't know if what I saidin the intro, I don't know if
that's often what you hear orexperience in your work with
women, but when you think of thewords powerful woman, what
(06:31):
comes to mind for you?
Robin (06:33):
Well, I said it earlier, it's when a woman can clearly
articulate and work towards whatshe wants.
It isn't about demandingtowards what she wants.
It isn't about demanding I mean, you can demand it, but it's
taking the steps that are partof truly achieving what you want
in your career, in yourpersonal life, in your sex life,
(06:56):
in your everything.
That, to me, is power, andthere's no judgment when one
life for one woman looks verydifferent from the life for
another woman.
Who's to say, I mean, if that'swhere she finds power, if
that's where she can claim whoshe really is, not living up to
some standard or portraying somerole, but it truly getting to
(07:21):
that point of like this, this is, this is who I am truly getting
to that point of like this iswho I am, this is what I want
and this is what I will do toachieve it.
That to me is powerful.
Mary (07:39):
So what happens when a woman doesn't have the role
model you have?
Because I think a lot of peoplefirst of all think of a
powerful woman and I think of alot of stereotypes from movies.
They think of this woman asscary, but I also think women
sometimes are scared of theirown power.
What do you think about that?
Robin (07:57):
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
I don't know if I would agreethat they're scared of their own
power as much as they're scaredof that feeling of power.
And I'll explain.
We aren't typically socializedand indoctrinated into the idea
of what does power feel like, sowhen we start to feel that it's
uncomfortable, it's unusual,we're not used to it, and all of
(08:19):
a sudden we pull away from it.
That's where I think it'sdifferent, that we're not scared
of power, but we're not used tothat feeling.
And anytime any human has anexperience that is uncomfortable
or unusual, we tend to run awayfrom it.
Our brain says, nope, that'snot our comfort zone.
So we pull back.
You know, speaking up forourselves or promoting our ideas
(08:42):
, giving ourselves credit, thoseare not things that, for many
women, we are trained andconditioned to do, and so when
we do it, all of a sudden it'slike, oh, and our amygdala,
which is the part of our brainthat creates fear and anxiety,
imposter syndrome, tells us no,no, no, no, that's not your
place.
Pull back.
And for many women we might.
(09:03):
But so I don't think we fearpower.
I think we fear the unusualfeeling of power if that makes
sense.
Mary (09:12):
Oh, it totally makes sense , and I also probably referenced
the amygdala in half myepisodes because it really is a
well, it's a smoke.
I say it's a smoke detectorthat goes off when the toast is
burning.
The house isn't burning down.
But we think these littlethings, even as you're saying a
little step, can feel like ohwait, this isn't where I'm
(09:36):
supposed to be, this isn't mylane.
Robin (09:39):
Right, exactly, yeah, I the amygdala to me.
And I don't know, I'm not surehow candid I can be, but I'll
just say it.
Very often I'll talk to myclients and I'll say our
amygdalas can be assholes and ifwe don't train our amygdala to
settle down, let our prefrontalcortex kick in.
Our amygdala is going to runaround like a toddler on
(10:00):
caffeine and that will controlour lives.
And for women, like a toddleron caffeine and that will
control our lives and for women.
We sink into that then and weare filled with worries and self
doubt and insecurity and allthe things that undermine us and
deplete our power.
So the earlier we can retrainour brain in general, our
amygdala specifically, thebetter it gets.
(10:22):
And one of the things thatamazes me when women talk about
you know power and and thatsocialization.
And when we were off off scriptearlier, mary, you said this
phrase, feminine wiles, and Igotta tell you I push back so
hard when people say it's a badthing.
I understand that in our societywe have created this idea of
(10:45):
some temptress who uses herfeminine wiles to do someone.
But when you really look up theword wiles, wiles can
absolutely mean being devious,but it can also mean being
cunning and using strategies tomanipulate situations to get
what they want.
And I talk to my clients a lotabout the idea that the term
(11:08):
manipulation has been reallydemonized in our society.
Yes, we know what manipulationcan look like.
We know it can be harmful andevil and everything in between.
But I also talk about positivemanipulation.
What do you know about someoneelse so that you can positively
manipulate the situation toachieve the goal you want?
(11:30):
And in those situations, it'snot about being evil or being
hurtful, it's about using yourfeminine wiles, because one of,
in my book, feminine wiles areour strengths, our strategies
that we are good at.
And women are really good atconnecting with people we are
(11:50):
really good at.
We have a higher EQ than youknow, in a generalized way, than
men.
So why wouldn't we use thesecunning strategies to then
achieve a goal?
As long as no one's being hurt,as long as no one is, you know,
putting themselves beforesomeone else in a way that's
going to damage a relationshipor the other person, I say go
(12:13):
for it.
So feminine wiles to me I tryand reclaim that term as no good
use your wiles, use yourcunning, use what you know and
embrace it, because as a woman,we can do things in different
ways and sometimes in betterways than men, just as they,
they also have different andbetter ways of doing things than
women.
Mary (12:33):
I 100% love that you said all that Because.
I have said often that womenhave developed, and I think it
partly is our brain.
Our brains are just different,and so I don't know how much of
that is epigenetic, I don't knowhow much of it is.
You know our socialization,whatever, but we can read a room
(12:54):
.
We have leadership qualitiesthat have been so underestimated
.
Exactly, you know and you knowbetter, certainly better than I,
in the work you do that most ofwhat we see as held up as good
leadership styles are masculine,correct.
So I love all of that.
(13:15):
I've been in situations as aleader where I feel like having
emotion is so helpful, agreed,and so, yeah, I think that we
see things in ways, becausewe've developed to read the room
, we've developed that sense of,for better or worse.
(13:38):
How are we doing?
How are people receiving this?
And I think even if someoneisn't receiving it well, that
doesn't mean that we're theproblem.
Robin (13:48):
Exactly when we think of it, and I love that you brought
up the idea of this ideallychanging standard of what
leadership looks like.
You know, the newer research onleadership is looking at the
importance of vulnerability andtransparency and that team
connection, and those are thingsthat women are really really
good at.
(14:08):
So you know, again, I willembrace the phrase of feminine
wiles.
Yes, use your feminine wiles toachieve the goals that you're
looking for.
Your organization is lookingfor whatever, but absolutely use
what you have.
Mary (14:24):
Yeah Well, and I think by pointing this out, you're
pointing out something importantin that we have made that term
feminine wiles be somethingthat's manipulative in a in a
bad way, like we're trying toweaponize it, and I think that's
what has happened so often andI think that's a two a little
(14:49):
bit where the fear comes in.
When you have good girlfriends,the way that you share
information and sort of emoteand lean into each other and
support, and I think when youcan bring some of that
professionally into theworkplace, I think there are
some people it scares the hellout of them.
Robin (15:07):
I agree.
But again, it scares thembecause it's the unknown, it's
not the norm and you know, ashumans and if we're talking
about the amygdala, the amygdalais definitely evolved to keep
us away from unknown, novelsituations, because there's fear
in that and it could bedangerous.
So when you have a leader thatdoes not look like what a leader
(15:29):
quote unquote should look like,yeah, that's going to be scary.
So whether it's women pullingaway, whether it's men or
non-binary individuals rejectingit because it is something
foreign, there's a rationalexplanation for it.
It doesn't justify it, itdoesn't give it credence to keep
(15:49):
moving forward, but it doesexplain it.
And if people can have thoseconversations to say, oh, this
feels weird to me, but let's tryit out, let's go for it, let me
get used to it, that's where Ithink the intersection of
understanding and acceptance canreally happen.
Mary (16:07):
So I'm thinking of something that I would love to
get your thoughts on.
When we talk about the amygdala, it will also look for things
where it can say see, I told youso.
I think sometimes when we getrid of our guardrails and that's
something I've talked aboutbefore get out of your lane, get
into the lane you want to be in.
Sometimes when we do that, thebiggest pushback comes from
(16:30):
other women.
That's been my experience and Ithink we are set up sometimes
to we're set up sort of as womento be competitive in ways that
we don't need to be, and I'mcurious about if you see that in
your work or what your thoughtsare on that.
Robin (16:51):
Yeah, that's a great question, Mary, and I struggle
with it.
I've gotten that question beforeand I know where it comes from,
but I really tend to sink intothe idea that that is an
outdated stereotype that justkeeps proliferating, that women
aren't really competitive, and Idon't see that very often in my
(17:15):
work.
I hear the stories but they tendto be and as I've done this
work, more and more so I hearthem less that women and maybe
because they are starting toembrace their power and embrace
their differences from thestandard, you know, view of
leadership or teamwork orwhatever it might be.
But I see women being moresupportive and whether it's in
(17:41):
career, whether it's in personallife I hope that I'm not being
naive.
My husband says I'm often aPollyanna and I only want to see
the good, and I don't disregardthat.
I'm like, yeah, I'm okay withthat, but I do think when I'm
looking at from you know, I'm inthe generation Gen X and I'm
looking at the millennials andI'm looking at the Gen Z I think
(18:04):
each generation is gettingbetter in terms of women
supporting each other andaccepting whatever each
individual woman's choice is,and I really I appreciate that
about the younger generations.
I love seeing it in mygeneration and I hope I'm not
just being delusional.
Mary (18:31):
I don't think you are.
I think it is getting better.
But I myself have had some ofthose experiences.
But I've also had some of mymost supportive friendships come
from the workplace workplaceand people too that were sort of
equal equal to where I was, andso if I advanced or they
advanced, there truly was asense of supporting that,
(18:53):
because someone else's successdoesn't diminish our success,
Exactly.
Robin (18:58):
That's exactly it, and you know to me and I get it.
You know I don't see it ascompetitive.
Sometimes it's flat outjealousy when I'm like, oh, how
did she already get her bookpublished and mine is still in
the process of, you know, beingpublished by the end of the
summer.
And then I remind myself, okay,what can I do to support her?
And maybe in the future there'ssomething she can do to support
(19:20):
me.
So it doesn't have to be justbecause of the quid pro quo, but
it's more.
Eventually there are ways thatwe will support each other, and
that's been my experience.
Every time I have that thoughtand I remind myself it's like,
okay, what can I do now to helpthat person in this moment, even
if it's just celebrating theiraccomplishment, you know, on
(19:41):
social media or with an email orwhatever it might be, because
knowing that eventually, if Ineeded something, I could
probably reach out to that sameperson, and I love that.
It's almost like having youknow, your own pit crew, where
you know it's like, okay, youmight not need them every time
you go around, but maybe at somepoint you're going to stop and
(20:01):
you're going to need thesepeople to jump in.
And because you've establishedthat relationship with them.
They'll do.
Mary (20:08):
And that's true, and I also wonder too if we see it
differently.
So, in other words, if we runup against that jealousy,
competitiveness, whatever youwant to call it with other women
male colleague because there'ssort of a different setup, a
(20:35):
different playbook I call it aplaybook a different playbook
that we're handed in how to getahead.
Or you know, I've talked onthis show about invisible labor
that women do in the workplace.
We do a lot of stuff that wedon't get paid for, but it's
connecting and we don't.
So many of us don't think inthose terms.
(20:55):
We do it because I know I didit because it felt good to
connect, but it's not cunning,it's not strategic, it's
exhausting.
Robin (21:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Now I think that when we justgenuinely embrace the idea of
support versus competition, itgets easier in that regard, when
we just are naturally just likeokay, what can I do, how can I
help, where can I be without andI will qualify this without
(21:24):
depleting ourselves, becausewomen are really good at that
too Let me do everything foreverybody, and then I got
nothing left for me, and that'salso a challenge.
Mary (21:34):
Yeah, because it goes back to those strengths that we have
.
So I had someone on the showwho's actually a friend of mine
and she said she's very good atseeing all the potholes that are
coming in her organization, andshe said I had to get very good
at staying in my lane.
Those aren't my potholes tofill, right, exactly.
Yeah, we anticipate, we can.
(21:55):
We tend to be able to seethings in ways that maybe
someone who is male or has amale brain doesn't really see in
the same way, right?
So that's yeah, that strengthcan be our undoing.
So I'm thinking that there arewomen who maybe have been taking
a role that is more let me dothe pothole filling, let me do
(22:19):
the invisible labor but theywant to advance or they want to
step into power a little more.
So what are some ways that theycould start to do that?
Robin (22:30):
Well, I think the first thing that helps and again, not
to say ad nauseum about theamygdala, but the amygdala
really does undermine ouroptimal functioning and our
goals.
So one strategy, one reallyconcrete strategy that I
encourage certainly everyone todo, but definitely women, is to
create a resume review.
(22:51):
And the resume review has lotsof purposes.
But essentially when I talkabout it I will get clients who
say, oh Robin, that's cute, andI'm like, okay, but let me tell
you the neuroscience behind thiscute strategy.
So the strategy itself iscreating either a physical or
electronic file ofaccomplishments, of reminders of
(23:14):
how amazing you are.
So it could be notes fromclients or students, it could be
articles about you, it could beperformance reviews, it could
be diplomas, whatever indicatesjust how remarkable you are.
I've had clients who createshoe boxes.
I've had clients who createshoeboxes, I've had clients who
create binders and then, ofcourse, electronic files.
(23:36):
So that's the first step youcreate, you start to put in
artifacts and if it's anelectronic file, you can take
pictures or whatever works best.
So that's step one and that'sactually the step that most of
my clients have an easy timedoing right away.
They're quick to it, they'reusually very excited to do it.
Step two is the harder step,and step two is that you review
(24:01):
the resume review Some of myclients call it their me file at
least once a month and inharder months, once a week.
You sit down and you don't skimthrough it, you read and you
look at and you pay attention toevery word, every item that's
in it and ideally, you also addto it, because if you don't
continuously add new things,your brain's going to get bored,
(24:24):
and that's when we stop doingthings, when our brain is bored.
And then, finally, you makesure that when you're reviewing
everything, you are notdistracted, and that is also
something my clients have a hardtime.
That's step three, not beingnot doing it, you know, really
quick, before they go to work orbut actually making the time,
(24:46):
scheduling it on your calendarso that that information, the
data that's in your me file,gets into your brain.
That information, the datathat's in your me file, gets
into your brain Because here'swhy this isn't just a cute
strategy or a, you know,personal affirmation approach.
The reason you want that data inyour brain and why it's
important to review it regularlyand add new information is
(25:06):
because in those moments whenyour amygdala is creating the
anxiety, self-doubt, insecurity,imposter syndrome, all that
stuff.
You want that information to beeasily accessible to your
prefrontal cortex, which is yourrational, strategic part of
your brain.
You want your prefrontal cortexto say no, you know?
No, of course we deserve to behere.
(25:27):
Yes, we definitely get to askfor that raise because remember
all the amazing things we'vealready done, so why wouldn't we
?
But if we don't give thatevidence to the prefrontal
cortex, if we don't make it easyfor our rational part of our
brain to access it, our amygdalais going to take over.
So when we feel thatnervousness to go talk to a boss
(25:49):
or a supervisor, when we feelthat anxiety because we're about
to step out of our lane, wewant a rational part of our
brain to have quick and easyaccess to information that
demonstrates hell yeah, this isour power and we not only
deserve it, we want it.
Mary (26:08):
Yeah, that's a great way to make something very obvious,
rational, because we also tendto focus on things that are
negative.
So in our mind maybe there wasa meeting where we said
something and it wasn't receivedwell and that takes up 80% of
our brain and all the greatstuff has been a dusty little
(26:30):
corner.
So two things occurred to me asyou were talking.
The one is and I do not knowpercentages, but when men look
at a job description they willsay, okay, I have like what 60%
of these skills I'm going toapply.
And a woman is like, oh my gosh, I only have like 90% of these
(26:51):
I can't apply Right.
Robin (26:54):
I have a great story, mary.
It only happened a couplemonths ago.
So my sister has two kids.
She has a 23-year-old daughterand a 21-year-old son and I love
my niece and nephew.
But they were having a randomconversation over lunch a couple
months back and my sister andmy niece start talking about how
(27:15):
they'd always love to fly aplane and they're like, oh yeah,
but it's expensive and you knowI'd have to take lessons.
And my nephew says, oh, I couldprobably fly a plane.
And my sister looked at him andshe said, you mean after
lessons?
He's like, no, I think I couldfigure it out with with no
arrogance, just completeconfidence.
And she said wouldn't that beamazing to be born into a world
where you're just like, yeah, Ican do that.
(27:35):
And it was such a cleardemonstration to me of, oh my
gosh.
That is how it often again as ageneralization often goes,
where men are just superconfident, maybe overly
confident, and in the case of mynephew that's obvious that they
can just do something, andwomen are like, oh, I need it
all laid out, I need 100 percentready, and then I'll do it.
(27:57):
And often we miss our shot.
Then.
Mary (27:59):
Yeah, I never really thought about it, but I totally
was that person.
If I would look at a jobdescription, I'd be like, oh I
don't know, there's this onething and I don't really have a
lot.
It never occurred to me thatsomebody else would look at that
and be like oh yeah, I got mostof this, I'm going to go for it
.
Robin (28:17):
Yeah, so in my family now the catchphrase is go fly the
plane, go fly the plane, just gofly the plane, just try it,
which of course I wouldn'tadvocate.
I would take the lessons, butthe analogy is there of no, just
go for it.
Mary (28:29):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a great story.
The other thing that occurredto me as you were talking, and
because you use cognitivebehavioral stuff, I really think
that women's irrational beliefsunderneath all of this have a
very different flavor than men's.
Do you agree with that?
Can you explain that a littlebit more, mary Sure?
(28:50):
So I'm thinking of I don't knowif you've heard of Dr Claire
Zahmet, but she talks about acoaching model that is
specifically for women, that incoaching we tend to give very
concrete steps.
That's sort of the hallmark ofcoaching.
It's not as much let's reallydive into things like therapy,
(29:10):
but it's more goal directedaction steps.
And she comes from a place ofsaying, well, that is not as
effective with women becausesort of what we're talking about
, that they'll see these stepsand be like, oh, but I don't
really know if I have enoughskill to do that or so, and so
(29:33):
from my past life said that I'mnot very good at this thing.
So sometimes that landsdifferently for women, because
underneath our thoughts arethese beliefs of I don't have
the stuff it takes to besuccessful.
Robin (29:49):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I've never really thought aboutthat.
What I've seen with my coachingclient, my female coaching
clients, is when the steps areoverwhelming or seem just
completely out of their realm,is we break them down almost
into minutia like super small,very manageable, smart goals,
(30:13):
basically, where you know we'renot, we're not going to try for
the bigger thing, we're notgoing to try for the the, even
the objective, we are just goingto do this one action, step.
And that tends to break downany of the worries or the self
doubt, because it's just onething, one thing.
I mean it's kind of like when Ihad a client recently and she's
(30:34):
been talking to me for a whileabout wanting to be physically
healthy and she's been on thispath of well, my husband works
out two hours a day.
I should work out two hours aday.
I'm like why?
Why is that the standard, firstof all, and you might not even
need that and you may needsomething different.
So I finally said to her acouple of months ago.
I said, how about we just aimfor, you know, five to 10
(30:56):
minutes a day?
She's like Robin, that'sridiculous, that's not going to
achieve my goal, I said, butneither is not doing anything.
So maybe we just start supersmall, and that's okay, and
that's still a hundred percentimprovement, a hundred percent
progress, and you slowly buildon that.
And with women also, I thinkmaybe a little more important, I
(31:17):
don't know, maybe I could seethat where we do explore, what
are the thoughts, what are theconcrete thoughts that bubble up
when you feel this emotion,when you feel the emotions that
are getting in the way?
What's the thought behind it?
Because often, you know, wedon't when I say we as humans,
we don't stop to think about,okay, what's the thought
(31:37):
creating the emotion?
Because emotions just don'thappen, they don't come out of
nowhere and they certainly aresomething we can control.
But it all, all of that happensonly if we can identify what's
the thought that created it.
And once women can identify, asyou said, you know, oh, this
person made this comment aboutme years ago it's like, oh, okay
, now is that still valid?
(31:58):
Is that still rational?
Was it ever valid?
And we can really dissect it.
Mary (32:03):
Yeah, Well, and I keep going back to your nephew so
this idea of maybe men see theplane in the air and women see
all the steps it takes to getthe plane in the air, yep,
because we're practicallythinking, well, I can't just
like climb in there and it'sgoing to take off.
(32:23):
And again going back toevaluating ourselves when we
want to apply for a job, we'relooking at every little step on
that.
Robin (32:31):
Typically, Instead of the step that's right in front of
us, yeah, and then, knowing thatwe will, we'll deal with it as
we go, we'll figure it out as wego.
I agree, I don't think mostwomen are good with that
fluidity of I don't know, let'ssee what happens.
We like our plans Again, and weare speaking in generalizations
(32:52):
, of course, but I think womenare very good at creating that
organization and that planfulapproach and while that's
wonderful and can work in manysituations, it's not going to
work in every situation.
Mary (33:06):
Yeah, and I think there's a little bit too of just how do
I want to say it, sort of notjust self-belief, but I think if
you look at something and it'slike, oh, I could be a project
manager, like I could do that,and then we look at all the
objectives that are under that,and then we start to doubt.
But I think if we can go withthat idea of like heck yeah, I
(33:29):
could be a pilot, or heck yeah,so that may be where we get hung
up a little bit and yeah.
Robin (33:35):
Yeah, I had another.
I had a client that I workedwith many, many years ago and
when I started working with hershe was 75 and had done all the
things raised her family, gaveup her career to raise her
family, went back to a careerand at 75, she was meeting with
me because she had been pushedout of her company and she said
(33:57):
you know, when we were settingup, what do you really want?
What have you always wanted?
She's like I always wanted toget my doctorate.
And I said okay, so what's yourplan?
She's like oh no, I'm too old,I'll probably die before before
I get it done.
And I'm like but what if youdon't die?
And I must've said that I don'teven know hundreds of times.
What if you don't die?
What if?
Cause?
That was always her.
Well, you know I won't have thetime and I won't have this and
(34:19):
I won't be able to enjoy it.
I'm like but what if you couldenjoy it?
What if you do live, get it andbe able to enjoy it?
And after a while, her brain,her prefrontal cortex, started
hearing it and she said I don'tknow what if?
So about a year after westarted working together, she
enrolled in a doctoral programand she did it for four years.
She achieved her goal and lastI knew she, I think, is probably
(34:45):
now 85, 86, somewhere aroundthere, but she did it.
But she had to get past that,the what ifs, the blocks that
were getting in her way, andsaid let's just remove the
blocks and say let's see, let'ssee what happens.
Mary (34:58):
Yeah, wow, that's so cool.
Robin (35:01):
Yeah, it's so cool.
Mary (35:02):
Yeah, at that age, to, yeah, to seek you out and say I
still have this.
Robin (35:07):
One other thing yeah, that's one other thing.
And she, yeah, she was amazing.
Mary (35:11):
That's great.
So I'm going to take an exitoff our little highway that
we've been driving on and Imentioned this in my intro.
But I think sometimes and I'veknown women like this that they
will wear a different sort ofhat or they have this different
persona in their career, in theworkplace, when it comes to
(35:32):
power, and a very different wayof being when they are in, I'll
say, a male-female intimaterelationship.
That's what I've perceived, andI know you do.
Couples work and I love thisidea of a business model, so
could you talk a little bitabout do you see this dynamic
and how do you address that?
Robin (35:54):
I do see this dynamic, and I do see it in men too, but
more predominantly in women, ormore visibly in women that you
know they're one way at work, interms of powerhouse, you know,
amazingly confident sometimes,at least outwardly, sometimes in
their heads or not, but theyjust are able to dominate in
such a positive way.
(36:15):
And then they come home andthey take on either the standard
role or they forget all thethings that they just did at
work and they don't translatethem into their relationship.
So, after years of working withyou know some really incredible
I've had such the fortune andhonor working with such
incredible women and listeningto them talk about work, and
(36:36):
then inevitably they will alsotalk about their personal
relationships, which is a bigdifference between my male and
female coaching clients, becausemen very rarely bring up their
personal life when they're therefor executive coaching, which I
find fascinating, but women do,and they would talk about
problems with their significantother or they would talk about
problems within their families.
(36:57):
And my question started to bewell, tell me how you do it at
work.
Well, what do you mean, robin?
Well, how do you manageconflict at work?
How do you talk to othermanaging partners at work, you
know, and how do you?
Oh, that's different, ron,that's not the same thing.
I don't.
I can't do that at home.
And my question was always why?
Why can't you do exactly thesame or use the skills, the
(37:18):
abilities, the feminine wilesyou do at work and apply them
into your personal relationship?
And most women would stop andsay I don't have an answer for
that or I don't know, orsometimes I get.
Well, love is different and loveis not different.
Love is a relationship and ifyou're coming at it from the
perspective of relationshipmanagement, then it doesn't
(37:38):
matter if you're in theprofessional setting or personal
setting.
So I then created a frameworkaround making turning your
marriage or your significantrelationship into a business,
and not that we're throwing loveand sexual attraction out the
window, but those are the bellsand whistles and those are the
things that are going to beenhanced.
If we have that foundation thatis more strategic, more planful
(38:03):
and for a lot of couples itworks very well and it's very
different than therapy, which iswhat many of the people who end
up working with me are looking.
They're looking for somethingother than therapy, because
therapy doesn't work for everycouple, usually for couples who
don't want to dive into the pastand don't have a need to dive
into the past, or don't reallywant to get caught up in a lot
(38:26):
of emotional conversations.
They want something that ismore objective, and my framework
does seem to work in that way.
Mary (38:34):
Yeah, I know our society has a lot of trouble with
anything that mightde-romanticize a marriage.
Robin (38:42):
Yeah, and I got to tell you I use it in my relationship.
I've worked with couples whouse it and the opposite is, what
happens is when you have thatstrong foundation, the romance
and the feelings of love and thefeelings of sexual attraction
they really increase, becauseyou've taken out the
miscommunication and theoverstepping or the just
(39:06):
struggles that get in the way,because I don't know about you,
mary, but when my husband and Iare struggling over something I
don't feel as attached to him, Icertainly don't want to have
any kind of physical contactwith him.
So if you can remove that orloosen it, then all that other
stuff just gets more fun.
Mary (39:24):
Yeah, Well, there's definitely a role for cognition
in marriage and I can say that,as being older and having got
remarried recently, it's adifferent approach and there is
a very healthy part of it thatis transactional I mean, it's
you know.
So I love that idea and I thinkyou actually do.
(39:46):
You have a book that's comingout, or is the Marriage Inc book
?
Is that already out?
Robin (39:51):
No Marriage Incorporated will be out by the end of the
summer, and it's.
You know, I've written otherbooks in different genres, but
this is the culmination of this15 years of creating this
framework that I have I amreally proud of, and I'm proud
of it because it it just talksabout such a important part of
our lives, our personalrelationships, in a very
(40:11):
different way but with veryconcrete strategies.
It's not just a book that talksto this theoretical idea, it's
here are some activities you cando, here are some worksheets,
so it's very hands-on, which Idon't know In the self-help
books I like.
I want something that's verytangible to take away and to
practice the strategies that arediscussed in the book.
(40:33):
So that's how I reallystructured my book.
Mary (40:39):
Well, I try to do that in each episode.
I mean I like people to leavewith something that they can,
you know, an action step,exactly.
But I saw that.
So it's Marriage Incorporated,the Boardroom Blueprint for a
Lasting Love, correct, which youget that love in there in the
title.
So that's good, right.
I have 3000 books in my house.
(41:00):
I love books so much, so I'vealready put a little asterisk
beside this.
So you said it's coming out.
Did you say end of summer?
Robin (41:06):
Yeah, it's actually available for pre order right
now it's it's just in the finalstages of tweaking and editing
as, as people who have writtenbooks know, the fun part, but
yeah it'll be out by the end ofthe summer and you have a really
cool buffet of books.
Mary (41:25):
I mean, you have a child children's book.
Robin (41:27):
Right, I do.
I am definitely one of thosepeople that when I just enjoy
and want to do something, I dotend to follow up.
So my children's book was basedon a real life story about my
husband and one of our dogs, butit's all about this little boy
who has a thinking spot,somewhere where he can go to
process his emotions.
(41:47):
So it's again.
The cognitive, behavioral stuffis there.
It's just from a child'sviewpoint.
And then and I worked with areally talented young
illustrator she was still inhigh school when I started
working with her, so that wasjust fun.
And then the other book that Ilove is called Voices from the
Village, which was actually aproject I created regarding my
daughters because I realizedwhen they were probably middle
(42:09):
school age, eventually they maynot want to hear everything from
their mom.
So I sent out a survey tofriends and family just saying,
with one question, what is theone piece of advice you would
give to a girl on the verge ofadulthood?
And the cool part was thatpeople got so excited about it
they ended up sending it toother people and it traveled the
world.
So I got responses fromstrangers and then just compiled
(42:30):
it into a book, essentially formy daughters, but certainly
it's.
It's also on Amazon, so it's,it's been fun.
This, this new Marriage Inc.
It has a different gravitas forme because it's so much my
life's work.
And, yeah, if anybody'sinterested, that is available on
(42:51):
my website for preorder andthen it'll be out.
Mary (42:54):
That's great and I will definitely have your website
linked in my show notes and Ilove your Voices from the
village idea because I workedwith college.
Well, I worked in high school.
I started as a high schoolcounselor and then I
transitioned to college and Ijust love working with young
adults.
Like it's really where I think,my, my heart is, and so I love
(43:17):
that idea of giving messages togirls as they are on the verge
of adulthood.
That's very cool yeah.
Robin (43:24):
I think one of my favorite parts about writing
that book was so my daughters asall of us are, my daughters are
very different and one has iton her shelf and I know she
reads it, but there's noevidence.
My younger daughter's hilariousbecause she is very much like
her mother and her copy isflagged and dog-eared and has
(43:45):
post-its and has writing in itand I'm like, yep, that's
awesome.
So I love that they were to me.
They represent what I hope alot of girls or women have
gotten from the book where it'sjust it's either a reference
when you need it, or women havegotten from the book where it's
just it's either a referencewhen you need it or it's it's a
battered book that is carriedwith you but um, yeah, it's deaf
(44:05):
.
Mary (44:05):
That was definitely a project of love yeah, what a
cool thing for them to have thatphysical thing that you created
.
That's so cool they're prettycool.
Robin (44:14):
They were, they were, um, they were also super supportive
about my ted talk and, forthose of you who know it or are
going to go look at it, it'sincredibly personal, incredibly
vulnerable and to have mydaughter say, no, mom, put us in
Like we're happy to be part ofit.
And they were in the audiencewhen I delivered it, when it was
first a TEDx talk, and they'reproud that I speak on such
(44:40):
personal, intimate topics, evenwith and I got their permission
before I put them into my TEDtalk and they were like, yes,
why wouldn't you?
And I'm like that, I'm, I'mproud that they are those type
of women.
Mary (44:52):
Well, and you can do the teaser, because I know what
you're, I know what you did.
Do the teaser, robin, do it.
Robin (44:59):
The title of it is why I Got my Teenage Daughter a
Vibrator, and it is the way Iusually tell people is.
It's about female empowerment.
It's about women truly owningtheir bodies and their lives,
and it's certainly more thanjust sexual devices.
Mary (45:20):
Yeah, well, and Emily Nagoski, who I've talked about
on this show, writes wonderfulbooks about women.
Just like use a mirror to getto know what your body looks
like, because we don't know.
And so this we don't need to goon this whole tangent because
we can have another episode thatstarts right now we don't need
to go on this whole tangentbecause we could have another
(45:41):
episode that starts right now.
But that's the whole thing, thatfor so long we have abdicated
the control of our own body, andgosh, that's another place
where we need to hold our powerCorrect.
So to get back to topic at handand you also have really cool
(46:02):
workshops I know there's the youtalk about mental health in the
workplace, you talk aboutwomen's equity, so you have that
information on your website too, if somebody wants to look for
a presentation or coaching orthat kind of thing.
Robin (46:13):
Correct.
Yeah, it's I.
I've had the benefit of beingable to get into some
organizations that you knowworldwide just through webinars.
So I do things virtually, I dothings in person.
It's just fun.
It's a lot of variety that getsout the same messages but in
different ways that work thebest for people or organizations
(46:34):
.
Mary (46:35):
Yeah, and I've looked at some snippets of it.
I think you've built suchwonderful options to help people
, so it's very cool, and I knowthat we took a few directions
that we didn't anticipate, so Ilove that you were along for
this ride.
It was a fun conversation.
Robin (46:52):
Thanks, Mary.
Mary (46:52):
I enjoyed it too, and thank you to all of you for
listening.
One of the best things aboutthis podcast is the listeners
and the community that we'recreating.
If you have someone in yourlife that you think would
benefit from the informationthat we shared today, please
forward the episode to them and,if you love listening, consider
joining the Growing Garden ofViolets and support the show
(47:14):
using the heart button or thelink at the bottom of the show
notes, depending where you'restreaming from.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Thank you.
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