From Chaos To Calm: Attachment, Trauma, And Choosing Healthy Love

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rebecca (00:00):
When you grow up around chaos, peace doesn't feel
comfortable.
It, if anything, is can feelsomewhat stressful because
you're like waiting for theother shoe to drop.

Mary (00:16):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key

(00:39):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
One of the many reasons I loveworking with young adults and
college students is that theyare often able to see for the
first time the patterns of theirnuclear family, especially if

(01:01):
they are away at college.
As children, we don't knowanything different than our own
family.
So although I believe thatchildren can instinctively know
that something is amiss in theirhome environment, our literal
survival depends on bonding withour parent, or at the very
least, working to maintain sometype of environmental balance.
That's often why women so oftenbecome caretakers, reading the

(01:24):
room, looking for where we needto intervene to smooth the path
or write the ship.
Sometimes our needs take abackseat to those of others
until we don't even know how tofigure out what we actually do
need.
As adults, we might wonder howwe ended up where we are, why we
seem to end up in relationshipsthat are chaotic or unhealthy
or even abusive.
While there's no one size fitsall reason, it's often because

(01:48):
our brain seeks what's familiar.
Like my college students fromurban environments who feel
anxiety in the quiet of therural community, a calm
emotional environment or ahealthy romantic partner can
make some women feel unsettled,like they're waiting for the
other shoe to drop.
They literally need toreprogram what's safe, looks
like, and feels like.

(02:08):
My guest today is a fellowlicensed mental health
professional, and y'all know howmuch I love having guests that
can hash out mental healthtopics.
And I always learn somethingnew.
Dr.
Rebecca Payne is a licensedpsychologist based in California
who helps people untangleanxiety, relationships, and the
patterns that hold them back.
She brings clinical expertiseand practical strategies to make

(02:31):
psychology clear, relatable,and useful for everyday life.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Rebecca.
Thank you so much for havingme.
I'm so happy to be here.
So I always start with havingmy guests talk a bit about the
moments that led them to wherethey are now or the work that
they do.
So, what are the highlights ofyour story that got you to

(02:51):
working in the mental healthfield?

Rebecca (02:54):
I've always been fascinated by psychology.
I remember in high school, theydidn't have a psychology
program.
You couldn't study it.
But I actually had a mathteacher, and we one time did
this thing where we werelearning about charting and we
had to take a like a test totell us like what side of the

(03:14):
brain we use.
And I was so fascinated by it.
I don't know.
I always just kind of had it inmy head that I was going to be
a psychologist.
And I definitely took somedetours.
Like I didn't go right intopsychology after college, but um
it's just something I've alwaysfelt called to do.

Mary (03:33):
Yeah.
Well, and so much has changed.
So I was trained 35 years ago,and I worked mostly with
teenagers, young adults.
And I think the thing that haschanged the most is the um, I'm
gonna say averageness of talkingabout things like anxiety and
depression.
And of course, social media hashelped that.

(03:56):
And I'm not sure always for thebetter, because I think there's
a lot of misinformation.
But the one thing that I hearyoung people talk about a lot is
attachment style.
And when I learned about it ingraduate school, I had never
heard of that.
And so there's a lot of thingsnow that are, I think, just
common common knowledge orcommon words used.

(04:19):
So I want to separate thatbecause I think sometimes common
knowledge isn't alwaysaccurate, you know, because
we'll we'll hear things or orread things.
And it's like, well, that's notreally a professional saying
that.
It's someone who experiencedsomething.
So let's talk a little bitabout attachment style.
Can you explain that from amental health perspective?

Rebecca (04:40):
Absolutely.
So attachment style issomething that is it develops
when we are very, very young.
And it has to do with ourrelationship to our primary
caregiver or caregivers.
It was originally, there's astudy that they did on
attachment style where theylooked at babies and their

(05:02):
caregivers.
Let me start with the secure.
The secure babies, when theirmother would leave the room,
they would become distressed.
And when their mother wouldcome back into the room, they
would calm down.
And they were in like a roomthat was unfamiliar, and they
they just like wanted to knowthat their caregiver was nearby.
Anxious babies, when theirmother would leave the room,

(05:24):
would become distressed.
And then when their motherwould come back, they continued
to be distressed and angry andwould oftentimes be like crying
and would sometimes like pushtheir mother away when she would
try and offer them comfort.
So that's anxious.
Then there is avoidantattachment.

(05:46):
So the avoidant attachmentbabies would pretend to not
notice when their mother leftthe room and also wouldn't re
react at all and seem as thoughthey didn't notice when their
mother came back.
What they found though whenthey hooked the babies up to um

(06:06):
measure their the actualdistress by machines is that the
avoidant babies were just asdistressed as secure or anxious
babies, they just didn't showit.
So that's like kind of was likethe first look that we had at
attachment styles at a youngage.
And it that kind of describes alot of what they look like as

(06:30):
we age.
You know, a pure person willmiss somebody, but then they
come back and they feel better.
And then when you get to ananxious attachment style,
sometimes the person coming backdoesn't make them feel better.
It's more they're likepreoccupied with the fact that
they left or that they mightleave again.
And then avoidance people actas though they don't care one

(06:54):
way or the other, even thoughthey do.

Mary (06:56):
Yeah, they do a lot.
And so it's really informed byhow we were parented, is the
theory, right?
We learn that either we canrely on our caregiver to be
consistent and to return, or ifthere is a, I'll say mother,
because most of the studiesobviously were done on the
mothers, because you know, weespecially back then, we looked

(07:18):
at the mother is as really thesole caregiver.
So if a mother was ambivalentabout being a mom and sometimes
would be caring and sometimeswould not, it's very confusing
to a child.
And so it informs how do wethen attach to not just
friendships, but mostly romanticpartners.

(07:40):
And so I think it's interestingthat that has now become kind
of common language that youngpeople use, they'll refer to
their attachment style.
So I think that's interesting,and I think it's important to
recognize that that is informedby how we were parented.
However, it's not written instone, it doesn't always inform

(08:02):
things.
But I think what's really coolis when you work with people in
a mental health situation, youcan see often how things in
childhood inform adult decisionmaking.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?

Rebecca (08:18):
Yes.
So particularly when it comesto attachment styles.
So, like childhoodrelationships, like you were
just saying, having a mother ora caregiver that's giving you
inconsistent love, thattypically will result in
developing an anxious attachmentstyle.
Cause you're like, are theygonna be on today or they're
gonna be off today?

(08:38):
I don't know.
You're worried about it.
That type of person generallygrows up to be somebody that
continues to worry about thattype of thing.
And in their with theirromantic partners, they're
constantly worried.
Like, where are they?
What are they doing?
Um, when are they gonna textme?
They haven't texted me and it'sbeen 25 minutes.
Are they okay?

(09:00):
The same way that a child mightworry about their mother.
And a trap that a lot of peoplewill fall into, particularly
anxious people, is they'll findthemselves with somebody that
has a more avoidant attachmentstyle.
Or sometimes it'll be somebodythat tends one way or another.
But if they're anxious enough,it will even trigger the other

(09:23):
person to behave moreavoidantly.
Because when you're all oversomebody all the time, you know,
the instinct is to be like,okay, cool.
Like I'll call you when I havea minute.
We've already talked five timestoday.
Yeah.

Mary (09:39):
Yeah.
And of course, there's natureand nurture.
So again, it's not a foregoneconclusion that if you have a
certain type of parent, thatyou're going to have a certain
type of pattern in yourattachment.
Often our childhood informsother things, like how we react
to certain things.
And I mentioned in my introchaos.
Yes.

(09:59):
Right.
So why do certain people endup, tend to end up in chaotic
situations over and over again?

Rebecca (10:07):
Such a good question.
So, as people, we seek out thatwhich we are familiar with
because that's what feels mostcomfortable to us.
So when you grow up aroundchaos, peace doesn't feel
comfortable.
It, if anything, is can feelsomewhat stressful because
you're like waiting for theother shoe to drop.

(10:29):
You're like, okay, what's goingon?
Why is everybody acting soweird?
Why isn't there yelling andscreaming?
Something bad's about tohappen.
I just don't know what.
And as humans, we like to befeel like as though we're
somewhat in control.
So sometimes that meansinstigating some chaos.
Sometimes that means seekingout relationships that are

(10:51):
chaotic.
And um, it's almost like wetend to prefer the devil we know
to the devil we don't.
And sometimes peace is thedevil we don't know.

Mary (11:03):
Yeah.
Well, you make a good pointabout we create what is
familiar.
And it's funny to think thatcalm and peacefulness is
something that makes peopleuncomfortable.
But if you were raised in ahome where there was yelling or
slamming doors, you always knewwhat mood someone was in, right?

(11:25):
Because if someone was quiet,then you had to be really
careful.
Like, what is happening here?
When is the explosion going tohappen?
And so I think that can reallybe a good informer for people.
Like if they find themselves tobe unsettled when they meet
someone and they're like, wow,this is really healthy.

(11:46):
Like this person is reallyhealthy, and this just feels
fairly uncomfortable.
That shows you where the workneeds to happen.
Exactly.

Rebecca (11:54):
Yeah.
It's if anything, morestressful.
If it's and we're like, why isthis person's being so calm and
what's gonna happen?

Mary (12:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think we can alsomisunderstand sometimes trauma.
So I've talked about this a lotthat there are traumatic
events.
We all have traumatic events.
Trauma, full-blown trauma, is alittle bit different, but
trauma to one person may notland that way for another
person.
So talk a little about howpeople might misunderstand

(12:26):
trauma and how it impacts uskind of in our everyday um
situations or life.

Rebecca (12:32):
Yeah.
So I mean, it sounds like whatyou you're referring to is a
little bit of like little what Ialways refer to as like little
tea trauma versus big teatrauma.
And little tea trauma is a typeof trauma that pretty much
everybody has.
Like it can be, you know, onetime your parents forgot to pick
you up from school and you hadto wait an hour and that was a

(12:54):
little bit stressful, but youdeal.
And like little tea trauma canactually be helpful
developmentally because youlearn coping skills.
I mean, little tea trauma islike maybe like you get in a
fight with your best friend andyou have to work it out, um, or
your brother's being mean toyou.
That's like all normal.

(13:15):
Then there's big T trauma.
Big T trauma is the type oftrauma that often leaves a
lasting impact.
So this can mean having yourlife at risk in some way.
It could mean a bad caraccident, it could mean losing a
parent at a young age, it canmean um witnessing violence, it

(13:39):
can mean um having violenceperpetrated against you or
sexual assault.
And the thing about big teatrauma is that we're two people
who experience the same exactthing aren't necessarily going
to respond in the same way.
And they're not going to seethe same impact.
So, you know, one person couldhave a ton of symptoms of

(13:59):
post-traumatic stress disorderand really struggle to function
after experiencing a big teatrauma, whereas the other person
appears to be, you know, prettyfine and highly functioning.
And maybe something happenslater, or some people just are
very resilient.
And that's again, somethingthat speaks to the nature versus

(14:21):
nurture of psychology, thequestion that we're always
asking and never really know howmuch we can credit one or the
other with.

Mary (14:32):
Yeah.
Well, and I think we need tothen factor in resilience
because it's really fascinatingwhen we look at like abuse, for
instance.
We think, or or it's portrayed,I'll say, in popular media or
movies, that anybody that'sabused becomes an abuser.
I was actually just watchingcriminal minds over my lunch
hour.
But um, that's actually nottrue that a very that maybe a

(14:54):
third to two-thirds of people, Idon't even think it's as high
as two-thirds, actually becomeadult abusers that were abused.
So that idea of resilience, orwe'll hear someone undergo
something that to us, we'relike, oh my God, that's so
traumatic.
So I think the interestingthing for us sitting in the
therapist chair is to determineare they sort of stuffing it?

(15:18):
Or do they truly feel like theyhave handled it, they've coped,
they've bounced back from it.
So, how do you try to figurethat out?
When you have a client thatyou're like, wow, that is like
some huge stuff that happened.
They appear to be okay.
Where do you go with that?

Rebecca (15:38):
Um, it's a great question.
And also just to your otherpoint about abusers being
abused, the way I alwaysdescribe it to my clients that
just like kind of makes the mostsense for me is like, I think
about it, it's like like gettingpregnant.
Like everybody who has a babyhas probably had sex, but not
everybody who's had sex has ababy.

(15:59):
Yeah.

Mary (16:00):
So it's like it's a great analogy.
Yeah.

Rebecca (16:03):
It's like a prerequisite almost for becoming
an abuser.
Not that you can't, in theory,do it, but most abusers have
been abused.
Yeah.
So back to your next question.
How do I handle a client thatcomes in with a ton of trauma
and says, I'm fine, like I don'thave any side effects, I'm
good.
Typically, I will validate thatfeeling and I'll kind of poke

(16:29):
around, be like, okay, so tellme about what are your
relationships like?
Like, how's work?
And there are some people thatare exceptionally resilient and
really just have it down.
But those people also tend tohave a way of coping and
processing the trauma.
And it depends on the personand it depends on what happened.

(16:50):
But it's pretty rare thatsomebody will have something
really traumatic happen to them,never speak of it again, and
never have any major have thatnever resurface again for them.
It comes out in ways whetherthey're conscious or
unconscious, and whether they'rethe person who's experienced

(17:14):
them knows notices the ways thatthat trauma comes out or
doesn't is also variable.

Mary (17:22):
Yeah.
And I think it's interestingthe way you put it.
I'll poke around a little bitbecause we hold a lot of power,
you know, as a therapist,because I think we have to be
really careful in when it doescome to significant trauma.
You can't sort of like rip theband-aid off, but there also are
situations where someone hassort of figured it out or they

(17:47):
don't react to it or encode itin the amygdala, which is we
I've talked about the amygdala alot.
That is that's our smokedetector.
It's not really encoded in thatin the same way in certain
people.
So, you know, it's interestingin that process of making sure
someone is okay, making surethere isn't something that is

(18:07):
sort of buried in there.
And, you know, we do hold itsomewhere.
You know, if there's somethingwhere you'll be in a certain
situation and you start to getstomach aches or headaches,
often that is the body keepingthe score, as Bessel van der
Koelk says.
Um so when you think about thethis trauma manifesting, what

(18:32):
are some of the things thatmight be clues that someone
needs to kind of talk a littlebit about childhood or when
would you start to explore whatmight have happened in the past?

Rebecca (18:43):
So there are a ton of clues, and I it's a tricky
question because I almost alwayslook to the past for when
anything's going on.
I'm like, okay, well, let'sthink back like what has
happened.
But I mean, just some generalclues might be, you know, you're
in a dysfunctionalrelationship, or they might come

(19:06):
to me and say, like, I keepyelling at my kids, and I don't
know why I have all this likeanger, or um, I'm getting these
stomach aches all the time, andthe doctor says that there's no
medical reason.
It can be that there is um alot of anxiety.
They're like, I don't know why.
Like, I know logically it'slike okay, but like I can't let

(19:30):
my kid out of my sight.
I'm just terrified to do it.
I mean, there's as many, asmany people there as there are
in the world, it's as many waysas a trauma can manifest.
It really is dependent on thecase.
But I guess like the best thingI can say is you know you'll
know it when you see it.

Mary (19:48):
Yeah.

Rebecca (19:49):
Or at least for me.
I can usually they'll tell sayone thing and I'll be like, hmm,
that's odd.
Let's talk about that a littlemore.

Mary (19:58):
Yeah.
Well, and I think it foranybody listening, I think if
there are a lot of things thatare physical symptoms for you,
that headaches, stomach aches, alot of tension, um, that can be
a clue that maybe there aresome things that you want to
think about in terms of mentalhealth or emotional health.

(20:19):
So I brought up social media,and I'm really curious because
you're much younger than I am.
So you sort of came up with allof this, with people very
publicly talking about theirdepression.
Or I mean, I remember the firsttime I worked at a really large
college, and I remember thefirst time a student came to me

(20:40):
and said, I know what mydiagnosis is, and they said it,
and I was like, I was scramblingbecause I'm like, oh shit, like
I don't know what that is.
Well, it was a TikTok thing.
So it really wasn't adiagnosis.
So that's where I sort of treadbetween I'm worried about a lot
of misinformation, but at thesame time, I recognize the kind

(21:02):
of the beauty of people beingable to find other people that
are experiencing some of thethings that they are because it
can be really scary to be like,I don't know why sometimes I
can't breathe because I have somuch panic.
So I think sometimes it can bea good thing.
So I'm curious, um, how do youthink that our current pop

(21:24):
culture, media, can be a toolfor understanding?
And do you have any concernsabout it?

Rebecca (21:29):
Yes.
So I mean, I do agree with youin that I both think it can be
beneficial and I have concerns.
And it's interesting because Ifeel like even in the time that
I've grown up, there's been ashift in mental health and like
the way we talk about mentalhealth.
Even from in the past couple ofyears, it's almost like it's

(21:52):
now we have celebrities comingout saying they have borderline
personality disorder, which Imean, that would never happen if
it happened 10 years ago.
Yeah.
Um people are much more willingto talk.
And I think that is a greatthing because it destigmatizes,
it shows that, like, yes, youcan be successful and still have

(22:15):
struggles.
And it doesn't mean that you'rebroken or there's something
wrong with you, like it justmeans that you need assistance.
So I love that people aretalking about therapy more
openly and talking about mentalhealth struggles.
What I find a little bitconcerning is the people kind of

(22:38):
seeing things on the internetand taking them to be facts.
It's almost similar to the way,you know, when you get sick or
you're having some symptoms andyou go on WebMD and you look
them up and it says that youhave cancer and are gonna die.
Yeah.
The same thing can happen withmental health.

(22:59):
And so it can that can befrightening.
Um, I think people willoftentimes, even abusers, now
have a lot more language.
And I've heard people likeweaponizing therapeutic language
to make it sound like they'rebeing thoughtful and caring when
they're not.

(23:19):
I think that it's somethingthat, like most topics, when
it's out in the open andeveryone's talking about it,
there's gonna be a lot ofopinions, there's gonna be a lot
of misunderstanding, there'sthere's a lot of wrong
information out there.
But overall, I would still sayit's net positive because people

(23:39):
are talking and people are, youknow, paying attention to their
mental health much more thanthey had in the past.

Mary (23:47):
Yeah.
Well, we consider it now asmuch as we consider our physical
health, which is much, youknow, much more quote,
acceptable because it's it'seasier to say, oh, I get
headaches all the time, versus,yeah, sometimes I am so
paralyzed with fear, I can'tleave my house.
You know, it's that makes usfeel weak when if we have
headaches three three times aweek and can be like, oh, I have

(24:10):
headaches, it's a physicalthing.
So yeah, I think that is reallya powerful part of it, that
we're now normalizing that we'rea full person.
So if you struggle with certainthings and we're supposed to
feel anxiety, I mean, I thinkthat's sometimes what we need to
keep reminding people thatanxiety keeps us safe.
It also motivates us.
Um, if we weren't a littleanxious about exams, we would

(24:33):
never study.
But I think when it goes toofar, you know, when it impedes
our ability to be a functioningadult or do the things we want,
that's when it's a problem.
So as someone who works withclients, if there's somebody on
the fence and they're like, Iwould love to go to therapy, but
I'm worried, or I my friendssaid that they had a terrible

(24:55):
therapist, what would you tellsomebody that is considering
going to a therapist?

Rebecca (25:00):
I would say therapy is great.
And you get to talk aboutyourself the whole time and all
about you and you know, makingyourself better and examining
yourself and like who wouldn'twant to do that.
So, and it's not something tobe afraid of.
Um, of course, there are peoplethat have had bad experiences,

(25:22):
and that's really unfortunate.
However, I also think thatsometimes it can be tricky to
find the right match for you.
I often will encourage peopleto talk to two or three
therapists before you make yourdecision and go with the person
that feels like that you drivewith best because that's going

(25:42):
to be the most effective, theperson that you're most
comfortable talking to.

Mary (25:45):
Yeah.
Well, and that didn't used tobe a thing.
You used to just take whoeveryou got, and now everybody has
consultations.
You can talk to them, you cankind of vet them.
But yeah, I tell people thatthe only place you can go and
have somebody give you theirfull attention for 45 to 55
minutes is in therapy.
But again, you make a goodpoint that it's it's like

(26:08):
anything.
You're gonna have a plumberwho's not good, or you're gonna
take your card to a mechanic andthe problem's not fixed.
And so I think empoweringpeople to be able to say, yeah,
this isn't helping me.
I think I'm gonna look so, Imean, give it time.
I always say three sessions,but yeah, I want to empower
people to feel like I love thatyou use the word feel, like it

(26:31):
if it feels right or if it feelsnot right, I think you go with
that because this is about youremotional and mental health.
So yeah, for sure.
Well, thank you for talkingabout all these topics today.
This was fun.

Rebecca (26:46):
Yes, thank you so much for having me.

Mary (26:47):
You're welcome.
And I want to thank everyonefor listening.
If you're interested in knowingmore about how to figure out
how to use your unique nature toset boundaries, stay well, and
create healthy relationships.
My upcoming book, Nature Knows,can help.
For now, join my launch team toget exclusive updates and first
peeks at the beautifulhand-drawn illustrations and
other fun perks.
You can join atmaryrothwell.net forward slash

(27:08):
nature knows.
I've linked it in the shownotes.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.

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