May 8, 2025 • 49 mins
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We explore the concept of essential nature and how reconnecting to our true selves leads to authentic living and healing. Licensed therapist and author Harmony Kwiker shares insights from transpersonal psychology on moving beyond our conditioned patterns.
• Transpersonal psychology looks beyond personal identity to access the spiritual dimensions of our humanity
• Our essential nature often becomes hidden behind conditioning as we adapt to family and social expectations
• Traditional therapy often positions the therapist as the expert, but a client's innate spirituality is actually the guide to healing
• Nervous system regulation is key to healing, but dysregulation isn't "bad" - it's important for integration
• Self-sabotaging patterns begin as adaptive responses that continue after they're no longer needed
• Mindfulness creates space between thoughts, allowing us to access possibilities beyond what our ego can imagine
• Alignment occurs when our thoughts, feelings and actions are congruent with our true nature
• Being a secure base for yourself means honoring what's true for you while recognizing others may have different perspectives
You can find Harmony HERE
Link to The Awakened Brain by Lisa Miller
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
Before we start, I wanted toshare a podcast review with you.
River Pebbles wrote a greatlisten.
(00:49):
I love listening to eachepisode.
Your interviews are interestingand moving.
I can relate to each and everystory.
I appreciate reviews so much.
This podcast is truly my heart,and hearing from listeners is
so cool.
I would love to hear from youtoo.
Okay, on to the show.
You may know that I oftenmention essential nature when I
(01:10):
speak about taking up your spaceas the unique person that you
are.
When I say this, I mean that wewell, all beings, animals,
plants have an essential naturethat is informed by well nature,
our genes and our DNA, andnurture our way of being that
has been shaped by ourexperiences, especially as
(01:32):
children or those experiencesthat were the most impactful,
like true trauma.
I believe, and I have seen frommy work and in my own life,
that we often get farther fromthe nature part of our essential
nature as we move towardadulthood and, amazingly, it's
often as we get older that weare drawn back to something
(01:53):
simpler.
We recognize on some level thatwe aren't living as we were
truly meant to live.
My guest today has literallywritten books about this.
She writes about our true selfversus our conditioned self,
very similar to what I mean whenI talk about essential nature,
and, as a fellow licensedtherapist, she not only helps
(02:15):
her own clients reconnect totheir true selves, but she
trains other mental healthprofessionals to apply the same
skills in their own work, whichis so cool.
Here's a quote from one of herbooks entitled Align Living and
Loving from the True Self, whereshe's talking about the
transformation in clients asthey see themselves with more
clarity, they remember theiressential nature and naturally
(02:38):
find their way back to theirwholeness.
I just love that.
My guest today is HarmonyKwiker.
Born into a family of healers,harmony started the practice of
transcendental meditation at agesix.
During this time, she glimpsedher future self and knew that
she was here to be a healer, ateacher and an author.
(02:58):
When it came time to choose amajor in college, psychology
seemed like the only reasonablechoice.
Wanting to find a way to bridgethe progressive healing
techniques of her parents withtraditional psychology, she
chose a graduate program with astrong foundation in social
justice and a more holistic lensof clinical psychology.
After 10 years of teachinggeneral psychology, harmony
(03:22):
accepted a position as avisiting instructor at Naropa
University, where she currentlyteaches transpersonal gestalt
counseling and transformativeclinical skills.
Harmony also founded theInstitute for Spiritual
Alignment, where she offerscontinuing education and
training for therapists andcoaches who want to bridge the
divide between traditional andspiritual transformation.
(03:44):
Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, harmony.
Harmony (03:48):
Thank you, Mary.
Thank you for that lovelyintroduction and I just so love
the way you describe theessential self.
Yeah, thank you for having mehere.
Mary (03:58):
Sure, I'm really excited.
As I read more about your work,I felt like so many of the
things align, which is kind ofironic because that's the name
of one of your books.
So I gave a little bit of infoabout you, but I wonder if you
could give us some quickhighlights about how you ended
up where you are today with yourown podcast for clinicians, as
(04:19):
well as all the wonderful skillsyou bring to your clients and
to the world wonderful skillsyou bring to your clients into
the world.
Harmony (04:31):
Yeah, my journey has been one that is really beyond
what my mind could have planned.
You know, I had a lot ofdissatisfaction with traditional
clinical counseling and becauseof that I sought out a degree
like I wanted to understand howto create a container for a
client to really return backhome to their essence, to their
essential self.
(04:51):
You know, I really found myanswer in transpersonal
counseling, and it isn'tsomething that you know many
people talk about.
It's not a very common wordthat we use.
I was just like excited to findthat there's a whole branch of
counseling dedicated to thetranspersonal nature of the
(05:12):
human condition.
And for those of you who don'tknow, transpersonal literally
translates to beyond personalidentity, and so in
transpersonal counseling we'rereally opening up to this
spiritual dimensions of humanity, accessing transcendent
(05:32):
experiences.
You know maybe more of themystical nature of being human.
As opposed to engaging from ourpersonality with our client's
personality, we're seeing thembeyond their conditioned self.
And so in my practice withclients I just became so deeply
(05:53):
in love with the human condition, with the way people fall
asleep, to their true self, totheir essential nature, and also
to be present when they awakenand they remember deeply from
this embodied sense, like a deepremembering of who they truly
are, and I honestly feel likeeverything I know I've learned
from my clients, you know, justbeing with people all day, every
(06:17):
day, and supporting them andmoving through these sort of
barriers that they've builtagainst themselves and against
contact, and opening back up tothemselves and learning how to
develop self-trust and reconnectwith their innate wisdom and
their deep knowing.
Mary (06:38):
That's really a beautiful definition that you gave of
transpersonal.
I will admit that in mytraining and I've been around
for, I think probably longerthan you 35 years in the biz,
but that idea of transpersonalwas really not part of my
training.
But I feel like the longer thatI did the work, the more I
started to recognize that wecan't just work from the neck up
(07:02):
.
I mean, you know we, we callthe the word, we call
psychologist shrinks, you knowwe think about.
We're just working with thethoughts and the brain, and it's
so much richer than that and Ithink our modern society has
made the work that you do evenmore important.
Harmony (07:24):
Thank you.
You know I agree with that andas a teacher, you know who
teaches transpersonal gestaltcounseling.
I see that in my students.
I feel so grateful that there'sthis whole wave of new
clinicians who are reallypassionate about learning how to
tend to the therapeuticcontainer as a sacred space for
(07:45):
clients to return back home tothemselves.
Mary (07:49):
Yeah, I also love the idea of container because we do hold
space.
We need to hold space for thatexploration and I think in your
story it's so cool that youstarted that part of a journey
for you at age six and I thinkwhen we are at that age, five or
six we are really trulyourselves.
(08:12):
I would go to the woods at thatage and spend so much time in
nature and I think as we getolder, we start to get these
messages and that's anotherthing I talk about.
But we get these socializationmessages that you know some of
those things they're not okay orthey're weird, or, and so we
move away, I think, from what weas children recognize that we
(08:33):
truly love.
Harmony (08:36):
Absolutely.
I feel very lucky that I wasraised by healers and had
parents who really instilledtrust in my intuitive senses and
really honored me for more thanmy personality.
And you know, at the same timeyou know, given the name of your
(08:57):
podcast, as you're talkingabout my six-year-old self I'm
really remembering that it wassoon thereafter that I started
to hide and didn't feel safe inthe way that you were describing
.
I stopped feeling safe andreally showing myself fully to
the world, and I think childrenare so wise at sensing the
(09:20):
environment and learning how tocreate an equilibrium with the
field around them.
And that's, you know, anessential part of gestalt
therapy.
Part of the theory is is reallythe way that we make contact
with the environment.
We're either meeting theenvironment as we are or we're
sort of unconsciouslymanipulating ourselves to fit
(09:42):
into an environment that wedon't feel safe in.
Mary (09:51):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
So, as I said, my listenersoften hear me mention essential
nature, which we've talked alittle about, and I think your
idea of that true self and theconditioned self are so similar.
But I feel like your approach,your theory, brings a lot more
spirituality into the work thatyou do.
So how do you see the role ofspirituality, how would you
explain that, in healing andtransformation?
Harmony (10:14):
I believe that a client's innate spirituality is
the guide of their healing and Ireally think that this is where
psychotherapy is imbalanced.
And I really think that this iswhere psychotherapy is
imbalanced.
If we look to the therapist asthe expert who guides the
healing, we're making them thesource of that repair and it
actually puts a lot of pressureon the therapist, and I think
(10:36):
this is why so many therapistsfeel depleted.
They're working so hard to dosomething that's not theirs to
do, to do something that's nottheirs to do.
And so when we're really let goof in the seat of clinician
letting go of our own personalidentity and letting go like
this isn't for our own egofulfillment, so letting go of
our ego and really just openingup to the inherent intelligence
(10:59):
of the space we can start tolisten to the innate
spirituality that's actuallyembedded in the condition
patterns, like there's a wisdomin each pattern.
We can listen to the innatespirituality and the innate
wisdom in any nervous system,dysregulation or discomfort in
(11:20):
the body, and as we listen inthis very nonviolent, loving,
accepting way, we can start tojust see this.
It's sort of, in my mind, lookslike a golden thread of
interconnection where the clientcan start to follow their
innate spirituality, also assort of this guide back home to
(11:42):
themselves.
So it's not something that I'mteaching somebody to do.
I'm not making them do it.
I'm listening to their systemin such a way that they begin to
listen and then they start toopen up to themselves in a very
deeply healing way.
And you know I've been doingthis for about 20 years so not
as long as you, but for quitesome time and from what I've
(12:05):
seen and experienced in thehealing potential of a
therapeutic container is that aclient's innate spirituality is
the source of their healing.
It doesn't come from their mind.
The deep repair comes from thereconnection to the spiritual
self, and there's actually someresearch that supports this
theory.
That's new, that I absolutelylove.
(12:28):
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith Dr Lisa Miller out of
Columbia, but she recently wrotea book titled the Awakened
Brain and she just sobeautifully highlights through
neurobiology the way that whenwe're in our stress or trauma
response, our access to what shecalls the spiritual brain, the
(12:50):
parietal lobe, the access to ourhigher consciousness, shuts
down as we mobilize to findsafety.
And so when we are dysregulatedand, you know, or using our
condition patternshyper-identified with our
personality, we actuallydisconnect from our spiritual
self, and so in the healingprocess we return to a regulated
(13:16):
state of awake awareness wherewe're embodying our spirituality
.
It's not an idea or a dogma,it's a felt sense of our spirit.
Mary (13:24):
I had not heard of that, but I just made a note of that
book and I will not only am Igoing to look it up, but I will
put it in the show notes, but Ithink that is really valuable to
start to unfortunately, I think, in our society put some
science behind it, because there, I'm guessing, you've heard a
lot of questioning, maybe seen alot of raised eyebrows with the
(13:47):
approach that you use.
Harmony (13:49):
Not in my circle.
I don't know, maybe it's justbecause of the part of the
deeply I'm not teaching themthis, I'm in the process with
them that the felt sense is sopeaceful and reassuring that
(14:11):
there's just a tremendous amountof gratitude that I trust them
this deeply, that I trust theirinnate wisdom and when I'm
teaching my students and youknow, naropa University is known
for its transpersonal program,so we attract a lot of students
who are passionate aboutnon-ordinary states of
consciousness, which is what I'mtalking about that people seem
(14:34):
to be really excited, and I doalso think that psychology is
shifting a paradigm right nowand that I'm part of this and
you're part of this.
We're sort of ushering in a newway to do this work and I feel
very excited about it.
Mary (14:50):
I'm really excited to hear that, that you are part of a
world where there isn't, as Isaid, the raised eyebrow,
Because I think that this well,as I talk about this, essence is
in everything.
I mean, plants know what theyneed to do, and I think we know
what we need to do, but we'vestarted to doubt that.
(15:10):
And I also love what you sayabout shifting from this idea
that the therapist is the expert.
I mean, it's not a word I everloved, but I feel like the
client really needs to beempowered to.
They already have enoughself-doubt, I think.
(15:30):
I think they need to beempowered that when they have a
sense of something or a sense ofa direction, they need to move
in.
That we should support that.
So I think that that idea ofour stepping back and you make a
great point that I think we inthis profession, we tend to
shoulder a lot and we tend tobelieve oh, we're responsible
(15:53):
for the healing, and I think toshare that with the client makes
it so much more powerful.
Harmony (15:59):
Absolutely, it's a collaborative process.
So my witness it's acollaborative process.
So my witness, my seeing myclient accurately contributes a
lot to a session, becauseclients often don't actually see
themselves accurately.
They're sort of swimming intheir own water and they believe
that what they're experiencingis it.
(16:20):
It's like the reality of theirexistence.
It's like the reality of theirexistence, and so my witness
(16:46):
offers a clarity for them, alongwith everything that they feel
and think and experience alongthe journey back to this deep
desire, this deep longing thatthey have.
And this is really the essenceof being client-led.
I think in our field right now,there's a lot of talk about
being client-led, but to fully,fully let the client lead really
requires a lot of trust intheir innate wisdom.
Mary (17:07):
Yeah.
Well, it occurs to me that thisidea of spirituality.
So I worked a lot of my careerwith college students and now I
work mostly with women inmidlife.
So I think back to when mycollege students would do an
intake form and we ask sort ofI'll say the 360 degree view of
(17:29):
themselves, the question aboutspirituality.
They would often not answer orput an NA, not applicable.
Many women at the age that I am, in this midlife part of
(17:50):
journey, I think, have reallyrecognized that either
spirituality has been lackingfor them or they're really
starting to reconnect.
So I'm curious how you helpclients access and trust that
part of themselves.
What is that?
Can you share a little whatthat looks like?
Harmony (18:05):
Yeah, the first thing I want to say is that I don't
talk to my clients aboutspirituality.
I don't want to become anothervoice of should.
I don't want to share spiritualdogma or like even practices
that they think they should doin order to be different.
In the work that I do, insteadof trying to change a client,
(18:28):
I'm actually creating space forthem to be more of who they are,
as they are, and it is throughthis deep welcoming and in
Gestalt we call it phenomenology, from opening up to the
phenomenology a client begins tochange organically and
naturally and their organismicself-regulation and innate
(18:49):
movement towards health justsort of comes online and they
find their way back.
And so it's not that I'mtalking about spirituality, it's
more that it's a spiritualexperience, and part of that is
the state of consciousness thatI'm sitting in when I hold space
.
Not to get too clinical here,but my third book just came out
(19:10):
and it's titled the AwakenedTherapist Spirituality,
consciousness and Subtle Energyin Gestalt Therapy.
And in Gestalt therapy we'relooking at the whole of an
individual.
We can't separate a person downinto distinct parts, so
spirituality and a person's souland their essence is part of
(19:31):
that whole, and so when we arelistening to their thoughts.
Spirituality is not separatefrom those thoughts.
Everything is interconnected ingestalt.
Gestalt literally means thatthe whole is greater than the
sum of its parts.
It's just sort of an essentialpart of the container.
But the tone is really setbecause I'm not playing expert.
(19:53):
I'm not interpreting my clients, analyzing them, dissecting
them, figuring them out.
I'm really opening into awakeawareness.
Mary (20:03):
Well, and I'm going to guess that for some people
they've never had.
Well, I'll use the wordcontainer again.
They've never had a containercreated or a space created where
they truly can just lean intothat and access who they really
are.
Harmony (20:20):
A hundred percent, mary .
I mean, and the thing is, isthat clients come in because
they want to change and sothey're already wrestling with
themselves, they're already inthis inner conflict, and then if
I come in and I'm also tryingto change them, then it's just
creates more inner tension andthere's not a lot of
spaciousness for increasedawareness, increased clarity and
(20:43):
discovery.
Mary (20:46):
Yeah, well, and I think so often people think that they go
to therapy to figure out whatto do, and I think so much of it
is more figuring out how to belike, how to be in the world as
the being that you really areAbsolutely, and I think
(21:11):
sometimes we get confusedbetween religion and
spirituality.
So, to have a shared kind ofterm for that with listeners,
spirituality is really aconnection to the highest power,
correct, a larger sense of theworld.
Harmony (21:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whereas religion is a traditionwith, like you know, practices
and ideas.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whereas religion is a traditionwith, like you know, practices
and and ideas.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.
I often say to people that Ireally believe it's not about
what we say or what we do, butthe place within ourself from
(21:47):
which we speak and act.
I can say something from myconditioned self, for example, I
could tell my husband that Ilove him.
But from my conditioned self,I'm like trying to get him to
love me too or, you know, tryingto have him feel appreciated,
so to get him to be different,maybe, or something like that.
(22:07):
But if I'm really seated in mytrue nature and I say the words
I love you, the quality is somuch more expansive and
liberating.
There's not this confinement orthis sort of tit for tat that
can happen with the conditionedself or the ego.
Mary (22:27):
Yeah, and I would imagine that for some people the
enormity of that brings fear,and so this is, I mean, another
thing that I touch on often withwomen.
They'll hear me say take upyour space, and I think that to
expand ourselves into what ourpotential is, I think is
terrifying.
(22:47):
So when you think about that inthe work that you do, is that
more that women step towardstheir true self and they need to
step a little bit away fromtheir conditioned self, and
that's how they would kind ofmove into their own space.
Harmony (23:05):
I actually think the answer rests in neurobiology.
I think that women havetraditionally experienced a
fawning response where, in orderto find safety in society, in
family, in the systems that weexist within, we've needed to be
(23:27):
very accommodating, nice,agreeable, which are all fawning
characteristics, where we don'thave an opinion, we don't have
a desire, we don't get mad, andthat is a survival mechanism.
And I think it's because we'vebeen in a disempowered, you know
, state place in the, in thesystem and, so to say, take up
(23:52):
space.
Of course they're going to feelfear because they're you're
inviting them to move out offawn and into hyper arousal, so
from a hypo aroused state offawn into hyper arousal of
action, you know, and so so,yeah, I mean, I think it's all's
all.
Just, you know, this is whytherapy can be so helpful, is
(24:13):
because when we can co-regulatethrough the fear, it's fear is
valid.
You know, it's okay to bescared.
I remember when, when I gotdivorced from my first husband
many years ago, I was so scaredbecause I was.
It was the first time in mylife, I life, I was shifting out
of my fawn and I was saying noto this pattern and I would feel
(24:37):
my fear and I would just makeroom and of course I'm scared,
you know and just make room formy fear, and I'm going to do it
anyways.
I'm going to bring my fear withme.
This isn't about not beingscared, it's about being
courageous.
Mary (24:51):
Yeah, kind of a little bit like radical acceptance.
I mean, it's going to be thereand I think when we try to push
something, it can sometimesbecome stronger.
And you know, I like that younamed fawning because that idea
of we don't want to hurtsomeone's feelings or we don't
(25:13):
acknowledge anger, because we'renot supposed to be angry as
women.
That's a male emotion.
All of those things are, youknow, kind of let's stay small,
let's not rock the boat, andfawning is also a response to
trauma.
And fawning is also a responseto trauma.
It's not just fight or flight,it's freeze.
It's also fawn to keepourselves.
(25:35):
Well, as you said, keepourselves safe.
We can stay safer if we justsmile and nod, but there's a
price to pay for that.
So let's hit this side path nowof trauma and pain so I know
you talk about that too is howdo people move past deep trauma
and pain?
What's sort of?
(25:55):
What are some?
Harmony (25:57):
of the keys to that.
Yeah, you know, I look at itmore as how do we learn to be
available for ourselves in ourexperience and resolve the
unfinished business from thepast that's affecting us now,
when, when we're in a traumaresponse, the brain can't
register the past from thepresent, and so anytime we're in
(26:17):
a heightened stress responsewhich could be a hyper arousal
of fight or flight or hypoarousal of freeze or fawn it
really could be our past historyinfluencing the way that we're
perceiving and experiencing ourcurrent life circumstances.
And nervous system regulationis just one of my favorite parts
(26:40):
of this work.
Really, truly, I think thenervous system is so wise and I
think that humans have atendency to try to think their
way through their stressresponse or their dysregulation,
and the mind actually caninhibit finding our way back to
(27:00):
a state of regulation.
And I also think there's amisconception.
I think people think that beingregulated is better than being
dysregulated, but dysregulationis actually really important for
us to, you know, heal the pastand integrate more deeply.
There's a lot of neurosciencethat sort of shows us how
(27:21):
important emotions are for ourintegration.
But when we try to control ournervous system dysregulation, as
you were saying, we justperpetuate this sort of inner
conflict with ourselves.
Pushing it away doesn'tactually make it go away.
But people unconsciously thinkthat I'm like I'm trying to
regulate myself and I'm tryingto make this go away and it's
(27:43):
not working.
And so the key, the tip that Ihave is really to be available
for yourself If you have asensation like let's just say
it's fear, to welcome your fearand to bring your awareness to
fear and, just you know, wrapfear with love and validate fear
.
It makes sense to me thatyou're scared.
(28:05):
It's not about validating thenarrative we come up with from
our fearful state, but justvalidating the emotion of fear,
and the moment we do that, we'reactually becoming more
congruent with ourselves.
Our system settles in thepresence of deep congruence like
that.
And yeah, it's really importanton the path of healing and on
(28:26):
the path of living from ouressential self and on the path
of living from our essentialself.
Mary (28:31):
Yeah, that idea of trying to think our way out of it we
can also that inner critic canstart to come up of I shouldn't
feel this way, I shouldn't bescared.
I should be over this by now.
And there's so much happeningin that beautiful frontal lobe
that we have that also can bedefeating sometimes or keep us
(28:52):
stuck and thinking about sort ofneurobiology.
The amygdala was sort oftrained, it's trained to keep us
safe and it's supposed to keepus safe.
But I think sometimes I use theanalogy it's like the smoke
detector going off when thetoast is burning that we have
come up with these ways to cope.
(29:13):
As soon as we hear that firstbeep of the smoke detector, we
feel like we have to fold or wehave to back away.
And I think that idea of justallowing the emotion that if you
have strong fear it's reallycoming from a place of
self-protection, it's not therebecause you're broken I think
that's also another thing thatwe can think what's wrong with
(29:36):
me?
There has to be something wrongwith me and there isn't
something wrong with us.
We're just doing the best thatwe can.
Harmony (29:43):
Yeah, and just to bring this back to transpersonal
counseling, the mind that thinksI should be different, I should
be over this, I shouldn't bescared.
That is what what I'm referringto as part of our personality,
our thinking brain, our hyperidentified self.
And so the thing that I'msuggesting is really shifting
(30:06):
away from that hyperidentification with the mind.
The mind is really important,like we obviously need our mind
and the thoughts that we createfrom a state of dysregulation.
They're an attempt at trying toregulate our nervous system,
but they actually pull usfurther away.
And so, even if the practice isjust turning towards the mind
(30:30):
and saying I see that you thinkI should be different, as
opposed to listening to thethoughts and just wrapping the
mind with awareness and movinginto more of a transpersonal
state so powerful and I reallythink such a different way that
(30:54):
I mean I'm going to just talkabout my own experience, such a
different way than I've workedor a different way than maybe
I've even allowed my clients toshow up.
Mary (31:01):
I just really go back to.
I love that sense of the clientis the expert in themselves and
it's a journey where you walktogether with them as the
therapist.
I just think that's really,really cool and, like I said, it
hasn't traditionally been a lotof the way that I work, but
(31:21):
you've made me so curious inwanting to access more of that.
I think for myself and alsobuild it into my practice.
I think for myself and alsobuild it into my practice.
We've certainly touched on this, but to pull this together, why
do you think it's so hard forpeople to break free from their
(31:41):
self-sabotaging habits.
Harmony (31:42):
It's such a big question and so I'm really, you
know, in my mind right nowsorting through gestalt concepts
and just the human condition.
But I see sabotage patterns asa way that a person is
unconsciously trying to resolvesomething from the past.
So the way that we interruptour own free will or interrupt
(32:10):
our own free expression is alearned habit.
It's a learned way of being so.
Even like, let's just say, aperson who when they were
growing up it wasn't safe forthem to say what was true for
them.
They would have gotten punished.
It was smart and wise andadaptive of them to close off
their voice.
(32:30):
It becomes a sabotage patternwhen now they want to say their
truth and those originalcircumstances of being punished
aren't here anymore but theycontinue to stop themselves and
cut off their voice.
The way that these habits sortof get entrained.
(32:51):
We're really listening for whatneeds to be resolved here in
order for this person to trustthemselves enough to hold
themselves enough to feel safeto speak their truth.
The mind looks for safetyoutside of us, the amygdala, as
you were saying.
You know scanning theenvironments for threats to
(33:11):
safety outside of us.
But in transpersonal counselingwe're really looking at where a
client can find their seat ofsafety within themselves, within
their own body, with the waythey honor themselves, treat
themselves, undo patterns ofself-betrayal.
And so oftentimes in my workwith clients, I am working with
an unresolved experience fromthe past and teaching clients
(33:35):
how to be a secure base forthemselves.
So being a secure base foroneself really means that we
know what we want, we know howwe feel, we know what we think
and what we value and we honorwhat is true for us, while also
honoring that other people mighthave a different desire or a
different idea or a differentvalue and we don't need to be
(33:59):
the same in order to be inrelationship, but that we don't
play small and we don't, youknow, cut off our truth just
because somebody else has adifferent idea.
Mary (34:09):
Absolutely the way you said.
That was just perfect.
We have to compare Again.
That's how we learn as infantswe are comparing people's
reactions.
But I think as we get olderthat comparison starts to be
used as self-judgment that Idon't think this is okay or I've
been told this is okay.
And those people that early onform some of those opinions.
(34:35):
You know, just because somebodyelse believes it doesn't mean
it's true for you.
And it strikes me, and you didarticulate this, but how blessed
you were to have the familythat you did as a child.
That level of acceptance, Ithink, is not true for many,
many people.
Harmony (34:57):
Yeah, the thing also that I just want to highlight
about the sabotage pattern isthat the pattern began as a
response to the environment, butwhat ends up happening is the
person then projects onto theenvironment what actually is
originating within them, so theydon't trust themselves to speak
the truth, but they're actuallyassigning that to the
(35:19):
environment, even though it'snot part of the present moment,
and this is really what aprojection is.
And so if we look at what'shappening within us, that's
where we find the solution.
That's where we find the answer.
It's not about anybody else.
You know, when a client comesin and they want to talk about
other people in their life, inmy mind I'm like, well, since
they're not here and we have nocontrol over them, what is here
(35:42):
for you?
Mary (35:42):
What's true for you right now, instead of trying to seat
our safety outside of ourselves,instead of trying to seat our
safety outside of ourselves,yeah, and I think this idea of
we do what we need to do tosurvive, to get through things
hard situations, traumas, allthose things when we're kids,
but I think you were saying in avery eloquent way, those things
(36:09):
then stop working or we try togeneralize to everything and
that sort of keeps us stuck.
Harmony (36:14):
Yeah, yeah and then and then it lives in us as a
sabotage pattern.
And this is where clients arelike why can't I stop doing this
?
Why do I keep doing this samepattern?
And yeah, I really think thatresolving the unfinished
situation that caused this liketo turn towards that inner young
(36:34):
one and just say I see thatyou're scared, I see that you're
staying quiet.
It makes sense to me thatyou're quiet and that you're
scared, and then starting torepair and reparent oneself by
giving ourselves what it is thatwe always needed.
Maybe it's saying like I alwayswant to know what's true for
you, Like saying that toourselves I always want to hear
(36:55):
what's true for you, as opposedto looking to other people to
want to hear.
Mary (37:00):
Yeah, Well, and I've certainly had clients that
really have trouble effectivelystarting to create change or
make a different life forthemselves because some emotions
for them feel so big, like thefeeling of anxiety or if it
(37:21):
starts to kind of flow intopanic.
So I'm guessing that may happenin your work and you've talked
about regulation.
Is that sort of built into thiswhole thing, helping them not
only observe and allow theemotions, but how do they
regulate the body reactions thatmight go along with that?
Harmony (37:44):
It's both the nervous system regulation and my
interventions are reallyteaching clients how to
self-regulate.
But in Gestalt therapy weactually externalize
subpersonalities and differentaspects into the therapy room so
that the client has a space toincrease awareness and discover
(38:05):
their way through the pattern ontheir own, but with my
facilitation.
And so this is to say that whenour thoughts are, you know,
right here in the forefront ofour mind, they seem so real,
like they're loud, and we clingto them and they're just like.
It seems like they'reeverything.
But if I say to a client, areyou open to trying an experiment
(38:28):
?
And they say yes, and I say Ijust want to invite you to take
the voice of fear and put it inthe chair, and I always say it's
not to get rid of the voice offear, it's just so that we can
learn from fear and understandwhat it is that it's needing.
And so I actually have myclients use their hands and take
it, you know, put it over thereand get some space, and we're
(38:49):
co-regulating through that.
But we're really learning whatis why, like, what's the wisdom
here?
What is needed really to comeback home?
Mary (38:58):
Yeah, that's a great visual because I'll say that
with anxiety invite it to sitdown beside you, but I love the
idea of physically sort ofplacing something there because
I think it makes it more real.
And that may be a littlebeginning to the next question
that I have for you, but I'mgoing to guess that a lot of
(39:20):
these things are resonating withmy listeners and I would think,
too, that they might be like ohman, I wish I could work with
Harmony.
So if that's not an option forthem finding someone that really
can do this work at sort of thelevel you're talking and
they're feeling like, wow, thatreally seems like something that
(39:43):
would be helpful for me.
But what if they want to startto simply do a few of these
things in their own lives?
Are there simple shifts orcertain things they might start
to be able to kind of accessthat true self as a beginning?
Harmony (40:02):
Yeah, I believe that the fundamental ground for this
work really begins withmindfulness practices, and I
know a lot of people say orbelieve that they can't meditate
because when they sit down tomeditate, their mind is really
loud and thinking.
But that's what the mind does,right?
(40:23):
The mind thinks.
That's part of the humancondition, and what I'm
suggesting here is that, insteadof believing our thoughts are
reality and that what we'rethinking is the truth, instead
to just maybe close our eyes andjust label it a thought and
take a breath and just get morespace.
Space is really what increasesawareness, what increases
(40:47):
consciousness, and so the morespace we can create around our
thoughts or in between eachthought, even if it's just one
breath or a half a breath, westart to open up to more
possibility than the ego couldever come up with, and so that
would be my number one tip is tobe mindful, to just notice when
you're believing your thoughtsare truth, to just notice when
(41:11):
you're believing your thoughtsare truth and just take a breath
and check in with your body,maybe put your hand on your
heart, Remember the othercomponents of yourself, because
we live in a mind dominatedsociety, especially with social
media and computers likeeverybody's all up in their head
all the time.
And so to just disrupt thatpattern and take a breath and
come back, and yeah, and Ireally think that doing that in
(41:37):
the morning, like, let's justsay, it's even in the shower,
sometimes if my day's reallybusy, my shower is where I have
my mindfulness practice.
I think it's important to beintentional about where you want
to live from.
Do you want to live from yourthought-based reality, that sort
of houses, your limitingthoughts, or do you want to live
from your essential self?
And so to begin each day bycoming into alignment with the
(42:02):
truth of who you are and youknow, I define alignment as when
our thoughts, our feelings andour actions are congruent with
the truth of who we are.
And so when we're off balancein our mind and they don't
actually serve our essence, thenit can be hard to find our way
back home.
But those would be my twobiggest tips just to be really
(42:22):
mindful and to get reallyintentional really intentional.
Mary (42:30):
Well, and I think you're right that when we use words
like mindfulness, people thinkthat's such a lofty thing and we
can't access it.
But really mindfulness ispaying attention, paying
attention to where your sensesare, and so doing that in the
shower, where I think most of usare thinking about what we have
to do that day, If we caninstead ground ourselves in that
.
I've sometimes said like,really experience the shampoo,
(42:54):
what does it smell like?
Or experience the water, andyeah, even if you are able to do
that for 60 seconds to start totruly quiet the thinking mind
and just be in and experienceyour body.
Harmony (43:10):
Absolutely, you know, really, just to really nurture
our own neuroplasticity, toallow our brain to orient to
something other than ourthinking, yeah, Well, you do so
much amazing work.
Mary (43:27):
I love that you are helping to educate and train
therapists and the way you dothat on your podcast.
So you make sure I'm sayingthis right that you have part of
your podcast where you processcases, but then there's also
part where, if let's say, I wantto learn at a deeper level, I
(43:49):
would access other content fromthat, correct?
Harmony (43:52):
Yeah, I think it might be the opposite of that.
So, streaming on all platforms,there's a conversation that I
have with other therapists wherewe're just sort of talking
about being a human and workingwith clients, and then on
Patreon I do a full caseconsultation where they present
a case that they're having achallenging time with and I
(44:13):
offer them consultation througha transpersonal gestalt lens.
Mary (44:18):
I love that, and your podcast is called the Awakened
Therapist.
It is yeah, yeah, okay.
So you have two books that arekind of written for the
layperson, is that right?
Harmony (44:30):
My first book is Reveal , embody the True Self Beyond
Trauma and Conditioning, andit's a very vulnerable self-help
memoir.
My ego did not want me to writethat one, mary, but you did it
anyway.
Yay, I did it anyway.
Then I could feel how importantit was to be so humbled by my
own journey.
And then my second book is aself-help book titled Align
(44:55):
Living and Loving from the TrueSelf.
Mary (44:57):
You actually have a book that you.
I think it's more of a textbook, right for practitioners.
Harmony (45:01):
It's a textbook, but it's also sort of a self-help
book for therapists and aworkbook, and I tell a lot of
stories about my own clinicalwork there too.
Yeah, it just came out lastmonth and it's called the
Awakened Therapist Spirituality,consciousness and Subtle Energy
in Gestalt Therapy.
Mary (45:20):
Well, I'm going to tell you it's already in my Amazon
cart, but I will link all ofthese and you know, I think just
to circle back before I end youknow, we've talked about this
idea of the therapist being setup as the expert, and I'm going
to say and this is a little offtopic, but I think because of
the burgeoning world of coaching, which that is an entirely
(45:42):
other topic, but I think thathas sort of changed this line a
little bit where about gettinghelp?
And so I think, as we also moveinto this modern world, people
like you and I, as part of ourwork and part of putting things
out there like a podcast, like abook, we also, I think, end up
(46:03):
sharing more about where we'vecome from than is probably in
the old idea of you know what isa psychotherapist?
We're doing more of that andthat is such an interesting
journey, isn't it?
Harmony (46:20):
Oh yes, I mean, I could talk about this for a very long
time, but I'll say that Ididn't plan on writing a memoir.
I really still was in this oldparadigm of thinking that I was
the expert and I wanted to showmyself as an expert with my
first book.
And I submitted my bookproposal to a major publishing
house and the acquisitionseditor liked it and I was, you
(46:42):
know, of course, so excited.
And she came back to me andshe's like you know, I actually
think this should be a memoir.
And I was gutted, mary, it'slike what?
And she only knew part of mystory because of my bio and
she's like I think your storywill really empower people.
And so I decided not to writeany books at that point.
(47:04):
And then, two years later, Iwas like okay, I think maybe she
was right and I was ready.
It was very much an undoing ofthat old paradigm of being an
expert for me.
Mary (47:15):
Yeah, and what I've learned is you can still have
your ethical line.
But, yes, we are just, you know, trying to gain comfort and I'm
going to be I'll be honest.
For me, it felt way safer tohave that boundary in a
different spot.
And even now, when I haveclients that say, oh, I listened
to your podcast Inside I'm notgoing to lie I'm a little bit
(47:38):
like ooh what did I say?
in that one.
But what we can bring to theworld by learning to navigate
that and stepping into thatspace is so extra powerful.
Yeah, and just affirming ourown humanity to navigate that
and stepping into that space isso extra powerful.
Harmony (47:50):
Yeah, and just affirming our own humanity.
You know like the way that Iapproach my work is to affirm my
client's humanity and I mustaffirm my own also.
Yeah.
Mary (48:01):
Yeah, very true.
Well, thank you so much.
This has been so awesome,because when I can talk with
somebody that expands what Iknow and feel, that's sort of
icing on the cake.
And you've done that today,harmony, and I just love talking
to you.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Harmony (48:20):
Thank you so much, mary .
It's been such a delight toconnect with you and I've loved
every moment of our timetogether.
Thank you, sure.
Mary (48:28):
So one of the best things about this podcast is the
listeners and the community thatwe are creating.
I love hearing from you,whether it's to respond to an
idea from an episode, to give asuggestion or simply to let me
know how an episode affected you.
You can use the send us a textlink at the top of the show
notes and, if you love listening, consider joining the Growing
(48:48):
Garden of violets and supportthe show using the link at the
bottom of the show notes.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Thank you.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
Before we start, I wanted toshare a podcast review with you.
River Pebbles wrote a greatlisten.
(00:49):
I love listening to eachepisode.
Your interviews are interestingand moving.
I can relate to each and everystory.
I appreciate reviews so much.
This podcast is truly my heart,and hearing from listeners is
so cool.
I would love to hear from youtoo.
Okay, on to the show.
You may know that I oftenmention essential nature when I
(01:10):
speak about taking up your spaceas the unique person that you
are.
When I say this, I mean that wewell, all beings, animals,
plants have an essential naturethat is informed by well nature,
our genes and our DNA, andnurture our way of being that
has been shaped by ourexperiences, especially as
(01:32):
children or those experiencesthat were the most impactful,
like true trauma.
I believe, and I have seen frommy work and in my own life,
that we often get farther fromthe nature part of our essential
nature as we move towardadulthood and, amazingly, it's
often as we get older that weare drawn back to something
(01:53):
simpler.
We recognize on some level thatwe aren't living as we were
truly meant to live.
My guest today has literallywritten books about this.
She writes about our true selfversus our conditioned self,
very similar to what I mean whenI talk about essential nature,
and, as a fellow licensedtherapist, she not only helps
(02:15):
her own clients reconnect totheir true selves, but she
trains other mental healthprofessionals to apply the same
skills in their own work, whichis so cool.
Here's a quote from one of herbooks entitled Align Living and
Loving from the True Self, whereshe's talking about the
transformation in clients asthey see themselves with more
clarity, they remember theiressential nature and naturally
(02:38):
find their way back to theirwholeness.
I just love that.
My guest today is HarmonyKwiker.
Born into a family of healers,harmony started the practice of
transcendental meditation at agesix.
During this time, she glimpsedher future self and knew that
she was here to be a healer, ateacher and an author.
(02:58):
When it came time to choose amajor in college, psychology
seemed like the only reasonablechoice.
Wanting to find a way to bridgethe progressive healing
techniques of her parents withtraditional psychology, she
chose a graduate program with astrong foundation in social
justice and a more holistic lensof clinical psychology.
After 10 years of teachinggeneral psychology, harmony
(03:22):
accepted a position as avisiting instructor at Naropa
University, where she currentlyteaches transpersonal gestalt
counseling and transformativeclinical skills.
Harmony also founded theInstitute for Spiritual
Alignment, where she offerscontinuing education and
training for therapists andcoaches who want to bridge the
divide between traditional andspiritual transformation.
(03:44):
Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, harmony.
Harmony (03:48):
Thank you, Mary.
Thank you for that lovelyintroduction and I just so love
the way you describe theessential self.
Yeah, thank you for having mehere.
Mary (03:58):
Sure, I'm really excited.
As I read more about your work,I felt like so many of the
things align, which is kind ofironic because that's the name
of one of your books.
So I gave a little bit of infoabout you, but I wonder if you
could give us some quickhighlights about how you ended
up where you are today with yourown podcast for clinicians, as
(04:19):
well as all the wonderful skillsyou bring to your clients and
to the world wonderful skillsyou bring to your clients into
the world.
Harmony (04:31):
Yeah, my journey has been one that is really beyond
what my mind could have planned.
You know, I had a lot ofdissatisfaction with traditional
clinical counseling and becauseof that I sought out a degree
like I wanted to understand howto create a container for a
client to really return backhome to their essence, to their
essential self.
(04:51):
You know, I really found myanswer in transpersonal
counseling, and it isn'tsomething that you know many
people talk about.
It's not a very common wordthat we use.
I was just like excited to findthat there's a whole branch of
counseling dedicated to thetranspersonal nature of the
(05:12):
human condition.
And for those of you who don'tknow, transpersonal literally
translates to beyond personalidentity, and so in
transpersonal counseling we'rereally opening up to this
spiritual dimensions of humanity, accessing transcendent
(05:32):
experiences.
You know maybe more of themystical nature of being human.
As opposed to engaging from ourpersonality with our client's
personality, we're seeing thembeyond their conditioned self.
And so in my practice withclients I just became so deeply
(05:53):
in love with the human condition, with the way people fall
asleep, to their true self, totheir essential nature, and also
to be present when they awakenand they remember deeply from
this embodied sense, like a deepremembering of who they truly
are, and I honestly feel likeeverything I know I've learned
from my clients, you know, justbeing with people all day, every
(06:17):
day, and supporting them andmoving through these sort of
barriers that they've builtagainst themselves and against
contact, and opening back up tothemselves and learning how to
develop self-trust and reconnectwith their innate wisdom and
their deep knowing.
Mary (06:38):
That's really a beautiful definition that you gave of
transpersonal.
I will admit that in mytraining and I've been around
for, I think probably longerthan you 35 years in the biz,
but that idea of transpersonalwas really not part of my
training.
But I feel like the longer thatI did the work, the more I
started to recognize that wecan't just work from the neck up
(07:02):
.
I mean, you know we, we callthe the word, we call
psychologist shrinks, you knowwe think about.
We're just working with thethoughts and the brain, and it's
so much richer than that and Ithink our modern society has
made the work that you do evenmore important.
Harmony (07:24):
Thank you.
You know I agree with that andas a teacher, you know who
teaches transpersonal gestaltcounseling.
I see that in my students.
I feel so grateful that there'sthis whole wave of new
clinicians who are reallypassionate about learning how to
tend to the therapeuticcontainer as a sacred space for
(07:45):
clients to return back home tothemselves.
Mary (07:49):
Yeah, I also love the idea of container because we do hold
space.
We need to hold space for thatexploration and I think in your
story it's so cool that youstarted that part of a journey
for you at age six and I thinkwhen we are at that age, five or
six we are really trulyourselves.
(08:12):
I would go to the woods at thatage and spend so much time in
nature and I think as we getolder, we start to get these
messages and that's anotherthing I talk about.
But we get these socializationmessages that you know some of
those things they're not okay orthey're weird, or, and so we
move away, I think, from what weas children recognize that we
(08:33):
truly love.
Harmony (08:36):
Absolutely.
I feel very lucky that I wasraised by healers and had
parents who really instilledtrust in my intuitive senses and
really honored me for more thanmy personality.
And you know, at the same timeyou know, given the name of your
(08:57):
podcast, as you're talkingabout my six-year-old self I'm
really remembering that it wassoon thereafter that I started
to hide and didn't feel safe inthe way that you were describing
.
I stopped feeling safe andreally showing myself fully to
the world, and I think childrenare so wise at sensing the
(09:20):
environment and learning how tocreate an equilibrium with the
field around them.
And that's, you know, anessential part of gestalt
therapy.
Part of the theory is is reallythe way that we make contact
with the environment.
We're either meeting theenvironment as we are or we're
sort of unconsciouslymanipulating ourselves to fit
(09:42):
into an environment that wedon't feel safe in.
Mary (09:51):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
So, as I said, my listenersoften hear me mention essential
nature, which we've talked alittle about, and I think your
idea of that true self and theconditioned self are so similar.
But I feel like your approach,your theory, brings a lot more
spirituality into the work thatyou do.
So how do you see the role ofspirituality, how would you
explain that, in healing andtransformation?
Harmony (10:14):
I believe that a client's innate spirituality is
the guide of their healing and Ireally think that this is where
psychotherapy is imbalanced.
And I really think that this iswhere psychotherapy is
imbalanced.
If we look to the therapist asthe expert who guides the
healing, we're making them thesource of that repair and it
actually puts a lot of pressureon the therapist, and I think
(10:36):
this is why so many therapistsfeel depleted.
They're working so hard to dosomething that's not theirs to
do, to do something that's nottheirs to do.
And so when we're really let goof in the seat of clinician
letting go of our own personalidentity and letting go like
this isn't for our own egofulfillment, so letting go of
our ego and really just openingup to the inherent intelligence
(10:59):
of the space we can start tolisten to the innate
spirituality that's actuallyembedded in the condition
patterns, like there's a wisdomin each pattern.
We can listen to the innatespirituality and the innate
wisdom in any nervous system,dysregulation or discomfort in
(11:20):
the body, and as we listen inthis very nonviolent, loving,
accepting way, we can start tojust see this.
It's sort of, in my mind, lookslike a golden thread of
interconnection where the clientcan start to follow their
innate spirituality, also assort of this guide back home to
(11:42):
themselves.
So it's not something that I'mteaching somebody to do.
I'm not making them do it.
I'm listening to their systemin such a way that they begin to
listen and then they start toopen up to themselves in a very
deeply healing way.
And you know I've been doingthis for about 20 years so not
as long as you, but for quitesome time and from what I've
(12:05):
seen and experienced in thehealing potential of a
therapeutic container is that aclient's innate spirituality is
the source of their healing.
It doesn't come from their mind.
The deep repair comes from thereconnection to the spiritual
self, and there's actually someresearch that supports this
theory.
That's new, that I absolutelylove.
(12:28):
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith Dr Lisa Miller out of
Columbia, but she recently wrotea book titled the Awakened
Brain and she just sobeautifully highlights through
neurobiology the way that whenwe're in our stress or trauma
response, our access to what shecalls the spiritual brain, the
(12:50):
parietal lobe, the access to ourhigher consciousness, shuts
down as we mobilize to findsafety.
And so when we are dysregulatedand, you know, or using our
condition patternshyper-identified with our
personality, we actuallydisconnect from our spiritual
self, and so in the healingprocess we return to a regulated
(13:16):
state of awake awareness wherewe're embodying our spirituality
.
It's not an idea or a dogma,it's a felt sense of our spirit.
Mary (13:24):
I had not heard of that, but I just made a note of that
book and I will not only am Igoing to look it up, but I will
put it in the show notes, but Ithink that is really valuable to
start to unfortunately, I think, in our society put some
science behind it, because there, I'm guessing, you've heard a
lot of questioning, maybe seen alot of raised eyebrows with the
(13:47):
approach that you use.
Harmony (13:49):
Not in my circle.
I don't know, maybe it's justbecause of the part of the
deeply I'm not teaching themthis, I'm in the process with
them that the felt sense is sopeaceful and reassuring that
(14:11):
there's just a tremendous amountof gratitude that I trust them
this deeply, that I trust theirinnate wisdom and when I'm
teaching my students and youknow, naropa University is known
for its transpersonal program,so we attract a lot of students
who are passionate aboutnon-ordinary states of
consciousness, which is what I'mtalking about that people seem
(14:34):
to be really excited, and I doalso think that psychology is
shifting a paradigm right nowand that I'm part of this and
you're part of this.
We're sort of ushering in a newway to do this work and I feel
very excited about it.
Mary (14:50):
I'm really excited to hear that, that you are part of a
world where there isn't, as Isaid, the raised eyebrow,
Because I think that this well,as I talk about this, essence is
in everything.
I mean, plants know what theyneed to do, and I think we know
what we need to do, but we'vestarted to doubt that.
(15:10):
And I also love what you sayabout shifting from this idea
that the therapist is the expert.
I mean, it's not a word I everloved, but I feel like the
client really needs to beempowered to.
They already have enoughself-doubt, I think.
(15:30):
I think they need to beempowered that when they have a
sense of something or a sense ofa direction, they need to move
in.
That we should support that.
So I think that that idea ofour stepping back and you make a
great point that I think we inthis profession, we tend to
shoulder a lot and we tend tobelieve oh, we're responsible
(15:53):
for the healing, and I think toshare that with the client makes
it so much more powerful.
Harmony (15:59):
Absolutely, it's a collaborative process.
So my witness it's acollaborative process.
So my witness, my seeing myclient accurately contributes a
lot to a session, becauseclients often don't actually see
themselves accurately.
They're sort of swimming intheir own water and they believe
that what they're experiencingis it.
(16:20):
It's like the reality of theirexistence.
It's like the reality of theirexistence, and so my witness
(16:46):
offers a clarity for them, alongwith everything that they feel
and think and experience alongthe journey back to this deep
desire, this deep longing thatthey have.
And this is really the essenceof being client-led.
I think in our field right now,there's a lot of talk about
being client-led, but to fully,fully let the client lead really
requires a lot of trust intheir innate wisdom.
Mary (17:07):
Yeah.
Well, it occurs to me that thisidea of spirituality.
So I worked a lot of my careerwith college students and now I
work mostly with women inmidlife.
So I think back to when mycollege students would do an
intake form and we ask sort ofI'll say the 360 degree view of
(17:29):
themselves, the question aboutspirituality.
They would often not answer orput an NA, not applicable.
Many women at the age that I am, in this midlife part of
(17:50):
journey, I think, have reallyrecognized that either
spirituality has been lackingfor them or they're really
starting to reconnect.
So I'm curious how you helpclients access and trust that
part of themselves.
What is that?
Can you share a little whatthat looks like?
Harmony (18:05):
Yeah, the first thing I want to say is that I don't
talk to my clients aboutspirituality.
I don't want to become anothervoice of should.
I don't want to share spiritualdogma or like even practices
that they think they should doin order to be different.
In the work that I do, insteadof trying to change a client,
(18:28):
I'm actually creating space forthem to be more of who they are,
as they are, and it is throughthis deep welcoming and in
Gestalt we call it phenomenology, from opening up to the
phenomenology a client begins tochange organically and
naturally and their organismicself-regulation and innate
(18:49):
movement towards health justsort of comes online and they
find their way back.
And so it's not that I'mtalking about spirituality, it's
more that it's a spiritualexperience, and part of that is
the state of consciousness thatI'm sitting in when I hold space
.
Not to get too clinical here,but my third book just came out
(19:10):
and it's titled the AwakenedTherapist Spirituality,
consciousness and Subtle Energyin Gestalt Therapy.
And in Gestalt therapy we'relooking at the whole of an
individual.
We can't separate a person downinto distinct parts, so
spirituality and a person's souland their essence is part of
(19:31):
that whole, and so when we arelistening to their thoughts.
Spirituality is not separatefrom those thoughts.
Everything is interconnected ingestalt.
Gestalt literally means thatthe whole is greater than the
sum of its parts.
It's just sort of an essentialpart of the container.
But the tone is really setbecause I'm not playing expert.
(19:53):
I'm not interpreting my clients, analyzing them, dissecting
them, figuring them out.
I'm really opening into awakeawareness.
Mary (20:03):
Well, and I'm going to guess that for some people
they've never had.
Well, I'll use the wordcontainer again.
They've never had a containercreated or a space created where
they truly can just lean intothat and access who they really
are.
Harmony (20:20):
A hundred percent, mary .
I mean, and the thing is, isthat clients come in because
they want to change and sothey're already wrestling with
themselves, they're already inthis inner conflict, and then if
I come in and I'm also tryingto change them, then it's just
creates more inner tension andthere's not a lot of
spaciousness for increasedawareness, increased clarity and
(20:43):
discovery.
Mary (20:46):
Yeah, well, and I think so often people think that they go
to therapy to figure out whatto do, and I think so much of it
is more figuring out how to belike, how to be in the world as
the being that you really areAbsolutely, and I think
(21:11):
sometimes we get confusedbetween religion and
spirituality.
So, to have a shared kind ofterm for that with listeners,
spirituality is really aconnection to the highest power,
correct, a larger sense of theworld.
Harmony (21:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whereas religion is a traditionwith, like you know, practices
and ideas.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whereas religion is a traditionwith, like you know, practices
and and ideas.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.
I often say to people that Ireally believe it's not about
what we say or what we do, butthe place within ourself from
(21:47):
which we speak and act.
I can say something from myconditioned self, for example, I
could tell my husband that Ilove him.
But from my conditioned self,I'm like trying to get him to
love me too or, you know, tryingto have him feel appreciated,
so to get him to be different,maybe, or something like that.
(22:07):
But if I'm really seated in mytrue nature and I say the words
I love you, the quality is somuch more expansive and
liberating.
There's not this confinement orthis sort of tit for tat that
can happen with the conditionedself or the ego.
Mary (22:27):
Yeah, and I would imagine that for some people the
enormity of that brings fear,and so this is, I mean, another
thing that I touch on often withwomen.
They'll hear me say take upyour space, and I think that to
expand ourselves into what ourpotential is, I think is
terrifying.
(22:47):
So when you think about that inthe work that you do, is that
more that women step towardstheir true self and they need to
step a little bit away fromtheir conditioned self, and
that's how they would kind ofmove into their own space.
Harmony (23:05):
I actually think the answer rests in neurobiology.
I think that women havetraditionally experienced a
fawning response where, in orderto find safety in society, in
family, in the systems that weexist within, we've needed to be
(23:27):
very accommodating, nice,agreeable, which are all fawning
characteristics, where we don'thave an opinion, we don't have
a desire, we don't get mad, andthat is a survival mechanism.
And I think it's because we'vebeen in a disempowered, you know
, state place in the, in thesystem and, so to say, take up
(23:52):
space.
Of course they're going to feelfear because they're you're
inviting them to move out offawn and into hyper arousal, so
from a hypo aroused state offawn into hyper arousal of
action, you know, and so so,yeah, I mean, I think it's all's
all.
Just, you know, this is whytherapy can be so helpful, is
(24:13):
because when we can co-regulatethrough the fear, it's fear is
valid.
You know, it's okay to bescared.
I remember when, when I gotdivorced from my first husband
many years ago, I was so scaredbecause I was.
It was the first time in mylife, I life, I was shifting out
of my fawn and I was saying noto this pattern and I would feel
(24:37):
my fear and I would just makeroom and of course I'm scared,
you know and just make room formy fear, and I'm going to do it
anyways.
I'm going to bring my fear withme.
This isn't about not beingscared, it's about being
courageous.
Mary (24:51):
Yeah, kind of a little bit like radical acceptance.
I mean, it's going to be thereand I think when we try to push
something, it can sometimesbecome stronger.
And you know, I like that younamed fawning because that idea
of we don't want to hurtsomeone's feelings or we don't
(25:13):
acknowledge anger, because we'renot supposed to be angry as
women.
That's a male emotion.
All of those things are, youknow, kind of let's stay small,
let's not rock the boat, andfawning is also a response to
trauma.
And fawning is also a responseto trauma.
It's not just fight or flight,it's freeze.
It's also fawn to keepourselves.
(25:35):
Well, as you said, keepourselves safe.
We can stay safer if we justsmile and nod, but there's a
price to pay for that.
So let's hit this side path nowof trauma and pain so I know
you talk about that too is howdo people move past deep trauma
and pain?
What's sort of?
(25:55):
What are some?
Harmony (25:57):
of the keys to that.
Yeah, you know, I look at itmore as how do we learn to be
available for ourselves in ourexperience and resolve the
unfinished business from thepast that's affecting us now,
when, when we're in a traumaresponse, the brain can't
register the past from thepresent, and so anytime we're in
(26:17):
a heightened stress responsewhich could be a hyper arousal
of fight or flight or hypoarousal of freeze or fawn it
really could be our past historyinfluencing the way that we're
perceiving and experiencing ourcurrent life circumstances.
And nervous system regulationis just one of my favorite parts
(26:40):
of this work.
Really, truly, I think thenervous system is so wise and I
think that humans have atendency to try to think their
way through their stressresponse or their dysregulation,
and the mind actually caninhibit finding our way back to
(27:00):
a state of regulation.
And I also think there's amisconception.
I think people think that beingregulated is better than being
dysregulated, but dysregulationis actually really important for
us to, you know, heal the pastand integrate more deeply.
There's a lot of neurosciencethat sort of shows us how
(27:21):
important emotions are for ourintegration.
But when we try to control ournervous system dysregulation, as
you were saying, we justperpetuate this sort of inner
conflict with ourselves.
Pushing it away doesn'tactually make it go away.
But people unconsciously thinkthat I'm like I'm trying to
regulate myself and I'm tryingto make this go away and it's
(27:43):
not working.
And so the key, the tip that Ihave is really to be available
for yourself If you have asensation like let's just say
it's fear, to welcome your fearand to bring your awareness to
fear and, just you know, wrapfear with love and validate fear
.
It makes sense to me thatyou're scared.
(28:05):
It's not about validating thenarrative we come up with from
our fearful state, but justvalidating the emotion of fear,
and the moment we do that, we'reactually becoming more
congruent with ourselves.
Our system settles in thepresence of deep congruence like
that.
And yeah, it's really importanton the path of healing and on
(28:26):
the path of living from ouressential self and on the path
of living from our essentialself.
Mary (28:31):
Yeah, that idea of trying to think our way out of it we
can also that inner critic canstart to come up of I shouldn't
feel this way, I shouldn't bescared.
I should be over this by now.
And there's so much happeningin that beautiful frontal lobe
that we have that also can bedefeating sometimes or keep us
(28:52):
stuck and thinking about sort ofneurobiology.
The amygdala was sort oftrained, it's trained to keep us
safe and it's supposed to keepus safe.
But I think sometimes I use theanalogy it's like the smoke
detector going off when thetoast is burning that we have
come up with these ways to cope.
(29:13):
As soon as we hear that firstbeep of the smoke detector, we
feel like we have to fold or wehave to back away.
And I think that idea of justallowing the emotion that if you
have strong fear it's reallycoming from a place of
self-protection, it's not therebecause you're broken I think
that's also another thing thatwe can think what's wrong with
(29:36):
me?
There has to be something wrongwith me and there isn't
something wrong with us.
We're just doing the best thatwe can.
Harmony (29:43):
Yeah, and just to bring this back to transpersonal
counseling, the mind that thinksI should be different, I should
be over this, I shouldn't bescared.
That is what what I'm referringto as part of our personality,
our thinking brain, our hyperidentified self.
And so the thing that I'msuggesting is really shifting
(30:06):
away from that hyperidentification with the mind.
The mind is really important,like we obviously need our mind
and the thoughts that we createfrom a state of dysregulation.
They're an attempt at trying toregulate our nervous system,
but they actually pull usfurther away.
And so, even if the practice isjust turning towards the mind
(30:30):
and saying I see that you thinkI should be different, as
opposed to listening to thethoughts and just wrapping the
mind with awareness and movinginto more of a transpersonal
state so powerful and I reallythink such a different way that
(30:54):
I mean I'm going to just talkabout my own experience, such a
different way than I've workedor a different way than maybe
I've even allowed my clients toshow up.
Mary (31:01):
I just really go back to.
I love that sense of the clientis the expert in themselves and
it's a journey where you walktogether with them as the
therapist.
I just think that's really,really cool and, like I said, it
hasn't traditionally been a lotof the way that I work, but
(31:21):
you've made me so curious inwanting to access more of that.
I think for myself and alsobuild it into my practice.
I think for myself and alsobuild it into my practice.
We've certainly touched on this, but to pull this together, why
do you think it's so hard forpeople to break free from their
(31:41):
self-sabotaging habits.
Harmony (31:42):
It's such a big question and so I'm really, you
know, in my mind right nowsorting through gestalt concepts
and just the human condition.
But I see sabotage patterns asa way that a person is
unconsciously trying to resolvesomething from the past.
So the way that we interruptour own free will or interrupt
(32:10):
our own free expression is alearned habit.
It's a learned way of being so.
Even like, let's just say, aperson who when they were
growing up it wasn't safe forthem to say what was true for
them.
They would have gotten punished.
It was smart and wise andadaptive of them to close off
their voice.
(32:30):
It becomes a sabotage patternwhen now they want to say their
truth and those originalcircumstances of being punished
aren't here anymore but theycontinue to stop themselves and
cut off their voice.
The way that these habits sortof get entrained.
(32:51):
We're really listening for whatneeds to be resolved here in
order for this person to trustthemselves enough to hold
themselves enough to feel safeto speak their truth.
The mind looks for safetyoutside of us, the amygdala, as
you were saying.
You know scanning theenvironments for threats to
(33:11):
safety outside of us.
But in transpersonal counselingwe're really looking at where a
client can find their seat ofsafety within themselves, within
their own body, with the waythey honor themselves, treat
themselves, undo patterns ofself-betrayal.
And so oftentimes in my workwith clients, I am working with
an unresolved experience fromthe past and teaching clients
(33:35):
how to be a secure base forthemselves.
So being a secure base foroneself really means that we
know what we want, we know howwe feel, we know what we think
and what we value and we honorwhat is true for us, while also
honoring that other people mighthave a different desire or a
different idea or a differentvalue and we don't need to be
(33:59):
the same in order to be inrelationship, but that we don't
play small and we don't, youknow, cut off our truth just
because somebody else has adifferent idea.
Mary (34:09):
Absolutely the way you said.
That was just perfect.
We have to compare Again.
That's how we learn as infantswe are comparing people's
reactions.
But I think as we get olderthat comparison starts to be
used as self-judgment that Idon't think this is okay or I've
been told this is okay.
And those people that early onform some of those opinions.
(34:35):
You know, just because somebodyelse believes it doesn't mean
it's true for you.
And it strikes me, and you didarticulate this, but how blessed
you were to have the familythat you did as a child.
That level of acceptance, Ithink, is not true for many,
many people.
Harmony (34:57):
Yeah, the thing also that I just want to highlight
about the sabotage pattern isthat the pattern began as a
response to the environment, butwhat ends up happening is the
person then projects onto theenvironment what actually is
originating within them, so theydon't trust themselves to speak
the truth, but they're actuallyassigning that to the
(35:19):
environment, even though it'snot part of the present moment,
and this is really what aprojection is.
And so if we look at what'shappening within us, that's
where we find the solution.
That's where we find the answer.
It's not about anybody else.
You know, when a client comesin and they want to talk about
other people in their life, inmy mind I'm like, well, since
they're not here and we have nocontrol over them, what is here
(35:42):
for you?
Mary (35:42):
What's true for you right now, instead of trying to seat
our safety outside of ourselves,instead of trying to seat our
safety outside of ourselves,yeah, and I think this idea of
we do what we need to do tosurvive, to get through things
hard situations, traumas, allthose things when we're kids,
but I think you were saying in avery eloquent way, those things
(36:09):
then stop working or we try togeneralize to everything and
that sort of keeps us stuck.
Harmony (36:14):
Yeah, yeah and then and then it lives in us as a
sabotage pattern.
And this is where clients arelike why can't I stop doing this
?
Why do I keep doing this samepattern?
And yeah, I really think thatresolving the unfinished
situation that caused this liketo turn towards that inner young
(36:34):
one and just say I see thatyou're scared, I see that you're
staying quiet.
It makes sense to me thatyou're quiet and that you're
scared, and then starting torepair and reparent oneself by
giving ourselves what it is thatwe always needed.
Maybe it's saying like I alwayswant to know what's true for
you, Like saying that toourselves I always want to hear
(36:55):
what's true for you, as opposedto looking to other people to
want to hear.
Mary (37:00):
Yeah, Well, and I've certainly had clients that
really have trouble effectivelystarting to create change or
make a different life forthemselves because some emotions
for them feel so big, like thefeeling of anxiety or if it
(37:21):
starts to kind of flow intopanic.
So I'm guessing that may happenin your work and you've talked
about regulation.
Is that sort of built into thiswhole thing, helping them not
only observe and allow theemotions, but how do they
regulate the body reactions thatmight go along with that?
Harmony (37:44):
It's both the nervous system regulation and my
interventions are reallyteaching clients how to
self-regulate.
But in Gestalt therapy weactually externalize
subpersonalities and differentaspects into the therapy room so
that the client has a space toincrease awareness and discover
(38:05):
their way through the pattern ontheir own, but with my
facilitation.
And so this is to say that whenour thoughts are, you know,
right here in the forefront ofour mind, they seem so real,
like they're loud, and we clingto them and they're just like.
It seems like they'reeverything.
But if I say to a client, areyou open to trying an experiment
(38:28):
?
And they say yes, and I say Ijust want to invite you to take
the voice of fear and put it inthe chair, and I always say it's
not to get rid of the voice offear, it's just so that we can
learn from fear and understandwhat it is that it's needing.
And so I actually have myclients use their hands and take
it, you know, put it over thereand get some space, and we're
(38:49):
co-regulating through that.
But we're really learning whatis why, like, what's the wisdom
here?
What is needed really to comeback home?
Mary (38:58):
Yeah, that's a great visual because I'll say that
with anxiety invite it to sitdown beside you, but I love the
idea of physically sort ofplacing something there because
I think it makes it more real.
And that may be a littlebeginning to the next question
that I have for you, but I'mgoing to guess that a lot of
(39:20):
these things are resonating withmy listeners and I would think,
too, that they might be like ohman, I wish I could work with
Harmony.
So if that's not an option forthem finding someone that really
can do this work at sort of thelevel you're talking and
they're feeling like, wow, thatreally seems like something that
(39:43):
would be helpful for me.
But what if they want to startto simply do a few of these
things in their own lives?
Are there simple shifts orcertain things they might start
to be able to kind of accessthat true self as a beginning?
Harmony (40:02):
Yeah, I believe that the fundamental ground for this
work really begins withmindfulness practices, and I
know a lot of people say orbelieve that they can't meditate
because when they sit down tomeditate, their mind is really
loud and thinking.
But that's what the mind does,right?
(40:23):
The mind thinks.
That's part of the humancondition, and what I'm
suggesting here is that, insteadof believing our thoughts are
reality and that what we'rethinking is the truth, instead
to just maybe close our eyes andjust label it a thought and
take a breath and just get morespace.
Space is really what increasesawareness, what increases
(40:47):
consciousness, and so the morespace we can create around our
thoughts or in between eachthought, even if it's just one
breath or a half a breath, westart to open up to more
possibility than the ego couldever come up with, and so that
would be my number one tip is tobe mindful, to just notice when
you're believing your thoughtsare truth, to just notice when
(41:11):
you're believing your thoughtsare truth and just take a breath
and check in with your body,maybe put your hand on your
heart, Remember the othercomponents of yourself, because
we live in a mind dominatedsociety, especially with social
media and computers likeeverybody's all up in their head
all the time.
And so to just disrupt thatpattern and take a breath and
come back, and yeah, and Ireally think that doing that in
(41:37):
the morning, like, let's justsay, it's even in the shower,
sometimes if my day's reallybusy, my shower is where I have
my mindfulness practice.
I think it's important to beintentional about where you want
to live from.
Do you want to live from yourthought-based reality, that sort
of houses, your limitingthoughts, or do you want to live
from your essential self?
And so to begin each day bycoming into alignment with the
(42:02):
truth of who you are and youknow, I define alignment as when
our thoughts, our feelings andour actions are congruent with
the truth of who we are.
And so when we're off balancein our mind and they don't
actually serve our essence, thenit can be hard to find our way
back home.
But those would be my twobiggest tips just to be really
(42:22):
mindful and to get reallyintentional really intentional.
Mary (42:30):
Well, and I think you're right that when we use words
like mindfulness, people thinkthat's such a lofty thing and we
can't access it.
But really mindfulness ispaying attention, paying
attention to where your sensesare, and so doing that in the
shower, where I think most of usare thinking about what we have
to do that day, If we caninstead ground ourselves in that
.
I've sometimes said like,really experience the shampoo,
(42:54):
what does it smell like?
Or experience the water, andyeah, even if you are able to do
that for 60 seconds to start totruly quiet the thinking mind
and just be in and experienceyour body.
Harmony (43:10):
Absolutely, you know, really, just to really nurture
our own neuroplasticity, toallow our brain to orient to
something other than ourthinking, yeah, Well, you do so
much amazing work.
Mary (43:27):
I love that you are helping to educate and train
therapists and the way you dothat on your podcast.
So you make sure I'm sayingthis right that you have part of
your podcast where you processcases, but then there's also
part where, if let's say, I wantto learn at a deeper level, I
(43:49):
would access other content fromthat, correct?
Harmony (43:52):
Yeah, I think it might be the opposite of that.
So, streaming on all platforms,there's a conversation that I
have with other therapists wherewe're just sort of talking
about being a human and workingwith clients, and then on
Patreon I do a full caseconsultation where they present
a case that they're having achallenging time with and I
(44:13):
offer them consultation througha transpersonal gestalt lens.
Mary (44:18):
I love that, and your podcast is called the Awakened
Therapist.
It is yeah, yeah, okay.
So you have two books that arekind of written for the
layperson, is that right?
Harmony (44:30):
My first book is Reveal , embody the True Self Beyond
Trauma and Conditioning, andit's a very vulnerable self-help
memoir.
My ego did not want me to writethat one, mary, but you did it
anyway.
Yay, I did it anyway.
Then I could feel how importantit was to be so humbled by my
own journey.
And then my second book is aself-help book titled Align
(44:55):
Living and Loving from the TrueSelf.
Mary (44:57):
You actually have a book that you.
I think it's more of a textbook, right for practitioners.
Harmony (45:01):
It's a textbook, but it's also sort of a self-help
book for therapists and aworkbook, and I tell a lot of
stories about my own clinicalwork there too.
Yeah, it just came out lastmonth and it's called the
Awakened Therapist Spirituality,consciousness and Subtle Energy
in Gestalt Therapy.
Mary (45:20):
Well, I'm going to tell you it's already in my Amazon
cart, but I will link all ofthese and you know, I think just
to circle back before I end youknow, we've talked about this
idea of the therapist being setup as the expert, and I'm going
to say and this is a little offtopic, but I think because of
the burgeoning world of coaching, which that is an entirely
(45:42):
other topic, but I think thathas sort of changed this line a
little bit where about gettinghelp?
And so I think, as we also moveinto this modern world, people
like you and I, as part of ourwork and part of putting things
out there like a podcast, like abook, we also, I think, end up
(46:03):
sharing more about where we'vecome from than is probably in
the old idea of you know what isa psychotherapist?
We're doing more of that andthat is such an interesting
journey, isn't it?
Harmony (46:20):
Oh yes, I mean, I could talk about this for a very long
time, but I'll say that Ididn't plan on writing a memoir.
I really still was in this oldparadigm of thinking that I was
the expert and I wanted to showmyself as an expert with my
first book.
And I submitted my bookproposal to a major publishing
house and the acquisitionseditor liked it and I was, you
(46:42):
know, of course, so excited.
And she came back to me andshe's like you know, I actually
think this should be a memoir.
And I was gutted, mary, it'slike what?
And she only knew part of mystory because of my bio and
she's like I think your storywill really empower people.
And so I decided not to writeany books at that point.
(47:04):
And then, two years later, Iwas like okay, I think maybe she
was right and I was ready.
It was very much an undoing ofthat old paradigm of being an
expert for me.
Mary (47:15):
Yeah, and what I've learned is you can still have
your ethical line.
But, yes, we are just, you know, trying to gain comfort and I'm
going to be I'll be honest.
For me, it felt way safer tohave that boundary in a
different spot.
And even now, when I haveclients that say, oh, I listened
to your podcast Inside I'm notgoing to lie I'm a little bit
(47:38):
like ooh what did I say?
in that one.
But what we can bring to theworld by learning to navigate
that and stepping into thatspace is so extra powerful.
Yeah, and just affirming ourown humanity to navigate that
and stepping into that space isso extra powerful.
Harmony (47:50):
Yeah, and just affirming our own humanity.
You know like the way that Iapproach my work is to affirm my
client's humanity and I mustaffirm my own also.
Yeah.
Mary (48:01):
Yeah, very true.
Well, thank you so much.
This has been so awesome,because when I can talk with
somebody that expands what Iknow and feel, that's sort of
icing on the cake.
And you've done that today,harmony, and I just love talking
to you.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Harmony (48:20):
Thank you so much, mary .
It's been such a delight toconnect with you and I've loved
every moment of our timetogether.
Thank you, sure.
Mary (48:28):
So one of the best things about this podcast is the
listeners and the community thatwe are creating.
I love hearing from you,whether it's to respond to an
idea from an episode, to give asuggestion or simply to let me
know how an episode affected you.
You can use the send us a textlink at the top of the show
notes and, if you love listening, consider joining the Growing
(48:48):
Garden of violets and supportthe show using the link at the
bottom of the show notes.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Thank you.
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