December 2, 2025 • 52 mins
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What happens when divorce stops being a private rupture and becomes a public war? We sit down with Lisa Johnson—co-founder of Been There Got Out, high-conflict divorce strategist, and certified domestic violence advocate—to unpack the real mechanics of legal abuse, coercive control, and the quiet power of strategic communication that stands up in court. Lisa shares how her own journey—from a shocking double life reveal to 100+ court appearances across two states—culminated in a rare pro se victory published as state case law, along with testimony that helped pass coercive control legislation.
Across a fast-moving, story-rich conversation, we map the signs your separation may turn high conflict: anger that never cools, untreated mental health or addiction, discovery obstruction, and the “what’s mine is mine, what’s yours is mine” mentality. We break down financial abuse tactics that hide in plain sight and show how to build a support team that actually works: an attorney for legal rights, a trauma-informed therapist for healing, and a strategist to translate chaos into evidence the court will take seriously. You’ll learn Lisa’s framework for writing every message to the “invisible audience” of judges and evaluators so you present as the most child-focused, reliable parent while documenting patterns over time.
We also tackle the toughest terrain—kids. Lisa explains loyalty conflicts, the realities behind parental alienation, and practical steps to protect attachment without feeding conflict. Expect concrete tools, from communication templates to record-keeping habits, plus fresh hope: many orders are modifiable, and a marathon mindset can turn setbacks into stronger motions later. Along the way, we highlight resources from Been There Got Out, including books, courses, and a weekly legal abuse support group that brings men and women together to share tactics and regain stability.
If you’re navigating a high-conflict split, this conversation offers clarity, language, and a plan. Please share with someone who needs it.
You can find Lisa at https://beentheregotout.com/
Sign up for the launch team for my book, Nature Knows, and get free insider news and surprises at https://maryrothwell.net/natureknows
Comments about this episode? Suggestions for a future episode? Wanna be a guest? Email me directly at NSVpodcast@gmail.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
I once entered into a situationwhere I gave someone rights to
something that I bought and paidfor, and then they wouldn't
(00:49):
give it back.
It's a long and sordid story,and honestly, I should have
known better.
But one of those situationswhere I ignored the red flags,
and you know how that goes.
And also one that showed methat people can profess to care
about you and a short time laterfight tooth and nail to take
something from you to which theyhave no right.
In my situation, this persondug in their heels and literally
(01:11):
would not give me what was mineuntil I involved an attorney.
And finally, just to end theassociation, I paid them to give
me what was already mine andget out of my life.
In the end, it was easier toaccept terms that were unfair to
me just to resolve thestalemate.
That situation to this dayremains the worst conflict I've
had to navigate in my life.
(01:31):
Knowing this person, I can'timagine what would it have been
like if there had been a custodyissue involved.
However, my guest today has astory that makes my experience
look like a shoving match on theplayground.
Lisa Johnson is the co-founderof Been There Got Out, a high
conflict divorce strategist andcertified domestic violence
(01:52):
advocate who helps men and womenall over the world navigate the
legal system with an abusiveex.
She and her partner Chris coachpeople to help them navigate
highly conflicted relationships.
She is the co-author of BeenThere Got Out: Toxic
Relationships, High ConflictDivorce, and How to Stay Sane
Under Insane Circumstances.
(02:13):
And she has a new book comingout soon, and we'll talk more
about that in our discussion.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Lisa.
Thank you so much for hostingme.
Yeah, I'm excited to jump intothis.
Um, and I always have peoplestart by sharing their story.
And I think you have a lot ofthings to say, but give us sort
of the highlights because I knowit has fueled a lot of what you
(02:37):
do now.
Okay.
Lisa (02:38):
So I'm always like, hmm, where do you want me to start?
So I'll start with, I guess,the end, um, the end of the
marriage.
So I was basically with my exfor nearly 20 years, married for
almost 18.
And I thought he was my bestfriend.
I never expected that theentire time he was living a
(02:59):
double life.
Um, found that out about twoyears before the actual moving
him out of the home, which tookthose full couple of years to
get to happen.
And so um, I never thought Iwould get a divorce.
I thought that was the worstthing that anybody could do in
terms of me, like uh ruining ourintact family.
(03:20):
And that was also the messagewas given to me by my ex that if
I did divorce him, that ourkids' lives would be destroyed.
So that kept me kind ofclinging on and doing everything
I could to keep it going.
But um, at some point it becamemore painful to stay than to
go.
So I met with an attorney.
Um, and within 20 minutes ofthe consult, he said, yours is
(03:43):
going to be one of the reallybad ones, which was shocking to
me because, like I said, Ithought my ex was a good person
who had just done some badthings and that we would just
amicably separate and and um,you know, go our separate ways,
but that's not what happened.
And so what as my lawyer hadpredicted, the divorce ended up
costing $100,000 and taking justabout a year.
(04:06):
I always say, I'm gonna paythat back forever.
And then I spent another nineyears in court dealing with him
post-separation orpost-judgment, um, mostly
financial issues.
And uh yeah, through so Irepresented myself for about
seven and a half years throughabout a hundred court
appearances in two states and uhprevailed.
(04:27):
And I love to say that justiceand karma took a very long time,
but it was finally servedbeautifully.
And the cherry on top was thatI also represented myself at the
appellate court level, thehigher court, um, which I was
told be very careful becauseit's very serious.
But I did it, and not only didI win, but uh the case was so
notable that it got published ascase law for the state, which
(04:49):
is a huge honor for an attorney.
And everyone I've ever spokento said they have never heard of
a self-represented litigant orpro se being turned into case
law.
So that's one of my big umtriumphs.
And then along the way, I alsosubmitted live testimony for
something called Jennifer's Law.
This was in 2021, and um itpassed.
(05:12):
And so my state of Connecticutbecame the third in America to
have coercive control laws.
We basically expanded our legaldefinition of domestic violence
to include all of thatinvisible abuse that people
don't seem to take as seriouslybesides physical.
So, like emotional, verbal,psychological, financial,
stalking, digital abuse, sexualabuse, revenge porn, legal
(05:36):
abuse, which is my specialty,and all of those things that
keep a person stuck in um therelationship and feeling like
they cannot get away.
So that was also a big victory.
And at this point, maybe Ithink 10 or 11 states also have
now um passed coercive controllaws.
Mary (05:56):
Oh my gosh.
Okay, so that was thehighlight.
And you know, I when I hearstories like this and I talk to
so many women and they are justliving their life, and then
there's a pivotal moment.
And I think for you, it soundslike there were several pivotal
moments, but it ends up reallyopening up this whole new avenue
(06:16):
that helps women help otherpeople.
So that's it, it's just youknow, turning something so
awful.
I can't even imagine you goingthrough it, like what that must
have been like.
It sounds like it was endless.
Lisa (06:31):
It was, and actually, I forgot to say the final thing
that happened was on the daythat my ex was finally, finally,
finally ordered to pay theamounts and the overdue arreages
and interest and penalties.
Uh, I was I was so happybecause I was like, finally,
like it's gonna be done.
And his lawyer followed medownstairs and came up to me
(06:55):
outside and handed me paperssaying that they were suing us
for a million dollars indefamation, and then it went up
to four million dollars indefamation.
So it was like just when Ithought it was finally ending,
then there's another curveball,and that took another few
months, but we got rid of thatourselves.
But it was it was scary becausethis was post Johnny Depp and
(07:17):
Amber Heard, and I just thought,oh my gosh, oh my gosh, but it
was it was totally fine.
Mary (07:21):
So, do you have legal training other than what you had
to learn?
Lisa (07:25):
No, but my master's degree is in education.
I was a high school Englishteacher and I am a professional
writer.
And so all of those skills,which I didn't realize at the
time, were really helping me.
Plus, my dad and uncle areidentical twins, and they happen
to be patent attorneys.
They are not litigators, theydon't know anything about family
(07:46):
law, which is its own WildWest, but they do speak some
legalese, I like to say.
So my dad was able to help mein the background, like as I
would write these beautiful longspeeches that were never to be
said.
This court is very short.
Um, my dad would would listento me and would tell me to write
the word pause because I talkreally fast, or he would say,
(08:07):
that's gonna upset the judge.
You don't want to do that.
And you know, he he was good athelping me um just put together
the procedural parts, but I Idid have to go in by myself and
and present.
And court can be really, reallyscary and you have to pivot a
lot because there's so muchhappening, and especially not
being an attorney, you have toreally pay attention to people's
(08:29):
body language, especially thejudge.
So if the judge is, you know,looking the other way, looking
at the clock, you have to changedirections.
So I had a lot of uh practiceand I always say I got my best
education in the trenches, butno, I don't have any legal
training.
I did consider going to lawschool after college, but my
major was English.
Um, I I always enjoyed mybusiness.
(08:51):
I took one, one, I tookactually two classes in high
school.
It was like civil law, criminallaw, and then in college I took
business law.
And I thought it wasfascinating, but I I really
loved teaching instead.
Mary (09:04):
Well, I think they should have given you an honorary law
degree at the end of all this.
So I'm thinking about so manythings because my what I I'm a
therapist.
So I'm thinking, first of all,I worked in, I was a high school
counselor, so I hadinteractions with lots of
students, lots of kids who were,I'm guessing you have kids, and
(09:24):
what what led over into thepost-divorce stuff was probably
custody stuff and you know, uhchild support and all of those
things.
And I have seen that impact onkids.
So I can imagine that is whereyou got the energy to continue
to keep fighting for things foryour kids.
Lisa (09:45):
Yeah, I mean, we luckily didn't have custody issues so
much.
I well, I mean, a lot of theclients that we work with are
dealing with custody battles, sothey're fighting over the kids.
This is this very sad.
And actually, my son made acomment once.
He said, I wish dad had foughtfor us, but my ex did the
opposite.
He basically abandoned them.
(10:06):
So when we split, it was almostlike he discarded all of us
together and we had open-endedvisitation.
I was like, Where are you?
And he just didn't really showup.
So um, it was very differentfrom a lot of the scenarios that
we hear about when we thinkabout high conflict divorce.
Mary (10:25):
So I'm also thinking you were with him for 20 years and
then literally going to battlein the courtroom and having him
sit there and know.
I mean, this history that youhave with him.
Do you remember through all ofit, I guess in the beginning,
was there a moment when youreally saw him for who he was?
Like, do you remember that?
Lisa (10:46):
You know, there's it's like hindsight is 2020, and we
always look back and go, whydidn't I pay attention to the
red flags?
There were always signs thatthere was something going on in
the background.
But at the time, I was alsovery young.
I was about 23 when we gottogether.
And so um, he was seven yearsolder than me.
And that's one thing thatactually attracted me to him was
(11:08):
I felt like he's a man.
Like he's, you know, beforethis, I was dating these
teenagers and men children, andhe was responsible, he had a
great career.
Um, he was in informationtechnology, he owned a home.
And in my head, I thought,because I also had before we
met, I had backpacked throughEurope.
(11:29):
And um, my first book isactually about that.
But I lived in Hungarypost-communism.
So um it was very uh likeunstable, but super fun.
And in my head, I got this ideathat when I come back to
America, I should settle down at23.
I should settle down, like Ishould get a job and and really
grow up.
And so meeting him kind of inmy head filled this fantasy of
(11:53):
like this is if I'm with thiskind of person, he's very
stable, you know, traveling,backpacking, you never know if
you could afford things.
So I thought he's, you know, ifwe have a family together, I
won't have to worry about thatkind of instability.
It was complete opposite.
But but um also this was um, Iwas never into technology, and
(12:14):
he was.
And one of the things he toldme from the beginning was that
his job as a technology personrequired him to be on the
computer a lot, but also becausehe was so smart that a lot of
people didn't understand him.
And so I probably wouldn't beable to completely understand
him.
And that's why he was spendinga lot of time in these chat
rooms in AOL, because that'swhat was happening in the 90s,
(12:36):
um, because he was connectingwith people who really
understood his gifted level ofintelligence.
And so there was this sort ofgrooming going on from the very
beginning that he was sobrilliant, and I just couldn't
ever reach his level.
So, you know, just let him kindof do his thing.
And I didn't, I just acceptedthat because when we get
together with someone that welove, we trust them.
Mary (12:59):
Yeah.
Well, and I think when youstart to recognize it, I know
women can it, you know, it comesto you slowly.
Like you said, you you'll feelsomething, it's not quite right,
and you ignore it.
And then I think when kids comeinto the picture, it can cloud
it even more.
You told this story of someonewho is very self-sufficient
doing this backpacking, and youknow, and I think sometimes when
(13:22):
we end up in these situations,we can feel ashamed.
Like, how did I ever let ithappen?
But it's so insidious.
It starts and then it gets outof control.
So I think that's also whatmakes it so important what
you're doing, because helpingwomen and supporting them to
recognize that some of us fallinto these things, like the
(13:43):
thing that I shared in thebeginning of you know, this
episode.
I could not believe thathappened to me because that
wasn't that long ago.
And I'm not a stupid woman.
So I think that it's, you know,again, it's not about being,
you know, how smart you are.
It's just sometimes there arepeople that are very good at you
use the word grooming.
And I think it's important toknow that.
(14:04):
So I know one of the things youtalk about is how to kind of
anticipate if you're going to bein a situation like maybe
you're thinking of leaving,you're contemplating divorce.
How do you know what are someof the signs that it might be a
pretty contentious separation?
Lisa (14:20):
Okay.
Well, first of all, let me justclarify.
I want to comment on somethingyou said about like
intelligence.
Domestic violence affects onein three women and one in five
men at some point, at least onceduring their lives.
Those numbers are tremendous.
Now, the people that we workwith tend to be highly educated,
super successful professionals.
(14:42):
And so there's an added levelof shame because they are
perceived as role models andpeople that others look up to.
And that often makes themunable to talk about what
they're experiencing becausethey'll hear things like, I
never thought you, of allpeople, would fall for something
like that.
Or why did you stay so long?
And so that's why we hidethings, but don't think that
(15:05):
it's just happening to a fewpeople.
Every time, anywhere I go, Imention what I do.
I always have people coming upto me saying, that's my
situation, that's someone I lovesituation.
So just know this is this islike rampant, this these kinds
of things.
And often it does happen to themost successful, responsible,
(15:25):
beautiful human beings becausethey are picked as targets.
The the irony is that we blameourselves for being foolish for
for falling for people likethis, but we have to keep in
mind that that abusive peopletarget, we call our shining
stars, like the most amazinghuman beings because we make
(15:46):
them look good.
We polish their star.
And that's why they are soangry when the relationship
ends, because now it's likewe've destroyed whether we chose
to leave or they did, but nowthat perfect image, because
appearances matter a lot topeople like that, has been
ruined and things split.
We're now they're the victimand we're the villain, and
(16:07):
everything is blamed on us.
Um, so I forgot your original.
Mary (16:12):
No, you're you actually are segueing into it.
And I really appreciate thatyou said that.
That's why I wanted to clarify.
I want to use the word stupidbecause we are very quick to
assign words to ourselves, toit, like, you know, women use
the word selfish or I was sostupid.
And no, you weren't stupid.
Again, as somebody who works inthe mental health field, it's
very common to encounter someonethat has a different set of
(16:37):
rules in how they operate in arelationship.
And we tend to often think itmust be me.
Nobody would intentionally dothat.
No one would intentionally lieto me.
No one would intentionally,whatever it is.
And so we spin it around andthink, well, maybe I'm doing
something wrong or I'mmisinterpreting.
So I'm glad that you broughtthat up because it's really
(16:57):
important to understand thatdynamic.
And I know you've used the wordnarcissist, and I'm always
really careful because I thinkwe use those words narcissist,
sociopath without reallyunderstanding.
But in these situations, it isthose traits of, like you're
saying, I need to look good.
No one really understands me.
(17:19):
I'm special and people want toappear special.
Or in the case of if it's moresociopathic, it is intentional
hurts, like really trying to gofor the jugulars.
But I think if we use a broadpaintbrush, we can say it's
someone who is in a relationshipfunctioning with a different
set of rules.
They're not coming from a placeof loving their partner, it's
(17:42):
often loving themselves orloving their own objectives.
And it's hard to see that.
So I'm really glad that youclarified.
Lisa (17:49):
And the question was And I remember the question
indicators of high conflict.
Yes.
Okay.
So remember what I had said.
Like I never pictured thisbeing high conflict.
My ex always seemed reallyreasonable, but he was
deceitful.
So I told you about thisattorney that I chose as my
divorce attorney who predictedthat mine was going to be really
(18:11):
bad.
And so before I wrote the book,the first book that we did, I
interviewed him and I said,Eric, how did you know that mine
was going to be bad?
He had never um thought aboutthe specific things, but as he
was talking to me, I organizedthem into a few different
factors.
But one of the most importantindicators of high conflict
divorce is somebody who doeshave some kind of mental illness
(18:34):
and or active addiction.
And again, active addiction,I'm not talking about someone in
recovery, but someone who's notin their right mind has
impaired judgment.
And so often they can't evenmake decisions that are in their
own best interest.
And so they will do thingswithout thinking about the
consequences.
And they often will prolong theconflict, which goes into
(18:58):
another factor, which is angerthat does not subside.
So usually within four to sixmonths of a typical split,
people are angry.
And then at that point, it'slike, all right, already.
It's getting really expensive.
Like, how about we just settledown a little bit, pay the
bills, figure out what's bestfor the kids, and move on with
our lives.
That is the opposite of whathappens in high conflict,
(19:20):
separation and divorce, becauseour exes want to keep it going.
They want to continue theengagement and the anger does
not subside.
So they will do anything tocontinue to punish people like
us.
We we often have heard itcalled like a clinging kind of
hatred.
And again, it's because, youknow, there's there's usually
(19:42):
deep feelings of abandonmentwhen a relationship ends.
Again, it doesn't matter whowho caused the end of it, but um
it's so uncomfortable forsomeone like that to deal with
those feelings of discomfortthat it often transforms into
rage.
And then again, there's thatsplitting.
They're the victim, you're thevillain, and they will do
anything to destroy you.
(20:03):
They'll try to ruin yourreputation, they'll spend tons
of money, they'll spend all thekids' money.
They don't care about theimpact all the conflict has on
the kids.
So it's really, reallydifficult to um to do it like
short and sweet with someonelike this because they just want
to hurt you and they don't careabout that scorched earth that
happens along the way.
(20:24):
Another thing is somebody whofeels entitled to um all of the
assets and finances.
So often I say the quote, it'slike, what's mine is mine, and
what's yours is mine too.
So they feel like, why should Ihave to comply with the
discovery process?
Why should I have to show youwhat's owned?
Because that's my money.
(20:44):
And I know with my ex, therewere all kinds of things, which
I later learned the termfinancial abuse, where he would
he owned a lot of real estatewith his sister.
He would send things to hissister's address.
He would tell me that I didn'tunderstand, that taxes were
being done separately, and Ijust didn't question.
And I signed things I didn'treally pay attention to.
(21:05):
I let him take care of a lot ofthe money stuff.
It felt like I was in controlbecause I had access to our
joint account and was able topay the bills, but there were
all kinds of hidden accountsthat came out later and stuff
with the real estate that it waslike, oh my God, wow, you know,
all that stuff that he justthought, well, it's my money.
It's my stuff.
(21:26):
So those are some factors thatindicate high conflict divorce,
the ones that cost lots of moneyand go on for a long time.
Mary (21:34):
Yeah.
And bringing up financialabuse, that's something that we
don't talk about.
And it can be one of the mostparalyzing parts because slowly
things are taken away, orthere's, you know, barriers to
getting to the money, or likeyou're saying, there are
accounts that, you know, youit's your spouse.
Why would you read the fineprint?
(21:55):
Um, and you know, it's I thinkit's a hard line to walk because
there's trust, right?
You want to have trust withyour spouse, but I think there's
also a sense of autonomy thatwe need to have when we're in
these situations to really, Imean, make make sure you
understand where the money is inyour relationship.
So I think that is reallyimportant.
Lisa (22:15):
Yeah.
Financial abuse is present in99% of unhealthy relationships.
And there's again, there's somany levels of it, but a lot of
it is not understanding what'sgoing on, having to ask for an
allowance, being made to feellike you shouldn't have access.
You don't need to know what'sgoing on.
And again, that creates thatsense of dependency as I need
(22:37):
this person.
We've seen we've seen so manycases where a woman was saying,
you know, the children and Iwere basically living in
poverty.
My husband was saying we had nomoney.
And then during the divorce, Ifound out there was millions of
dollars.
He had a whole other apartmentin Manhattan.
And I can't believe that wewere living like that.
We didn't, I didn't even have acar to use.
And they were presenting thisscenario that, you know, of
(23:00):
course, the double standard,he's doing what he wants, and
and she and the kids are living,you know, in a very difficult
life.
Mary (23:07):
So if there's somebody now who's in the middle of this
mess, like you went through, andthey're not seeing the end of
it, they're seeing thesebehaviors of, you know, this
sustained anger and retribution.
What would you say to them?
Is there how did you cope?
What can you offer to somebodyelse?
Lisa (23:27):
Oh my gosh.
Like it was very, veryisolating.
And it is very isolating.
And so what I was dealing withis we call it legal abuse or
litigation abuse, stalkingthrough the court, um, judicial
terrorism, paper abuse.
So that's really where someoneis stuck in the legal system and
um, you know, trying to getorders to be complied with, or
(23:49):
dealing with someone filing lotsof motions against you and
trying to live your life withthat.
So it can feel like your lifeis consumed by a terrorist and
you're just stuck and you'rebleeding money and energy, and
you can't focus on your job andyou might lose your job.
And so it's really hard.
So it's very important to findsupport.
So we often talk about howpeople in this situation are
(24:12):
like the surface of the table.
And so the more legs they have,the more stable it can be.
But each leg has its pros andcons.
So, for example, friends andfamily are great if they can
support you, but a lot of ourclients have come from unhealthy
families of origin and or havebeen isolated from their support
systems.
So they don't have friends andfamily.
(24:32):
And even when they do havefriends and family, most of them
are not trained in domesticviolence.
And they'll say things like,Well, why didn't you just leave?
Why'd you stay so long?
How could you have fallen from?
So then that makes you feeleven more alone.
Plus, there's something callednegative advocates, which is a
term coined by Bill Eddy, who'san expert in high conflict
situations.
(24:53):
He founded the High ConflictInstitute.
And he talks about howsometimes the people we love
will fan the flames of conflictby being like, you deserve this,
your ex shouldn't be doingthis.
Why doesn't the judge just dothis?
And it's like, I'm dealing withmy own stuff and these strong
emotions of these other people.
Sometimes lawyers can benegative advocates.
So that's that cannot behealthy.
(25:14):
So, friends and family, then wehave the lawyer.
So when you're going through adivorce, you need to have a
lawyer because you need to knowyour legal rights.
Plus, it's the foundation ofeverything.
So I know I went pro se, but itwas post-judgment, it was
post-divorce.
I never could have done thatlike on my own.
So you really need to have alawyer.
But the lawyer's job is to beyour ally and your advocate and
(25:36):
to basically translate your caseinto the law.
But for so many of us, this isso emotional that we'll rely on
our lawyer.
And I certainly did, and that'swhy my divorce was so expensive
because my lawyer was my bestfriend for a year and I paid him
lots of money and he waswonderful, but I didn't realize
that there were other resourcesthat I should have been tapping
into besides him.
And lawyers also don't likecases like ours.
(25:58):
Like my wonderful lawyer said,Lisa, please don't ever send me
any of your clients because Idon't need the headache.
You know, I'm not interested inthese long, awful cases.
So then we have a therapist.
So often you need a therapistor a domestic violence advocate
to help you work through what'sgoing on and to help you heal.
Unfortunately, many therapistsare not um trained in the court
(26:22):
procedures and they have givenawful advice without meaning to,
like just gray rock or don'tcommunicate or just take the
kids and go and cross statelines, and then people end up
losing custody.
And so you really um rely onyour therapist to help you heal
and to work with your children,but not to give you legal
(26:43):
strategic advice because it canreally, really harm you.
Um, and so then Chris and I arethe one of the last legs.
I'm not talking about like realestate professionals and
financial advisors, um, whocertainly are are helpful for
many cases too, but we arehigh-conflict divorce
strategists who specialize inlegal abuse.
My own experience in court, mymy background training.
(27:05):
I was trained as a crisiscounselor in college, so I had
that too.
But um, we kind of fill the gapbetween what attorneys are not
trained to do and therapistsdon't understand.
So attorneys are also logical.
And so they tend to think, allright, this case is gonna settle
down, everybody's gonna dowhat's fair and do what's best
for the kids.
But that's not what our exescare about.
(27:27):
They care about themselves.
And so everything has to beapproached very, very
differently when you're dealingwith an individual like that,
because it won't follow thenormal cadence of, let's say,
divorce.
And so we always joke that ourclients, all, including me,
belong to the my lawyer saysthis is the craziest case I've
ever had club, because they justdon't know what to do and they
(27:48):
get fatigued.
That's why it is so importantto have this team of people that
are helping you get through itbecause you're especially if you
have children, the morestressed out you are, the more
your kids are gonna feel it.
And they can often feel likethey have to be responsible for
our emotional health.
And that's not healthy.
So the more self-regulated thatwe can be, the more we can sort
(28:12):
of have people our own age andyou know, our peers like helping
take care of us, then our kidscan feel like they can just live
their lives as much aspossible.
And the whole crazy divorcesituation is more peripheral
rather than like consuming themlike it consumes us.
It's really important to try toshield the kids from as much
conflict as possible because itit does impact them
(28:35):
significantly.
Mary (28:36):
It sounds like you're talking about you almost have a
whole team when you're in asituation like this.
Lisa (28:42):
Yeah.
Mary (28:43):
Well, and I'm sure it does consume you.
I don't know how you can thinkabout anything else because it
sounds like sometimes you'revery powerless.
Lisa (28:51):
Yeah.
I mean, I always think aboutthe three emotions that
characterize someone goingthrough legal abuse, where
there's yeah, you know, yearsyou're stuck in the court
system.
And so I experienced these forthose all of those days of all
of those 10 years.
Uh, one is a sense of rage.
Every morning I would wake upand for a moment I would forget
(29:13):
that what my life was was, andthen I would be like, I'm so
mad.
Like, this is so unfair.
And I found that I wasn't evenangry at my ex.
I was angry at the system forallowing it.
Because the more that thingscontinued to go along where
there wouldn't be consequences,where he was found in contempt
(29:33):
five times and nothing reallyhappened, it just emboldened the
abuse to continue.
And I just thought this is thisis like I'm so mad that this is
going on and how long is itgonna take?
Then the second is this senseof injustice.
Like here, the system that I'mturning to for relief is making
things worse.
And when is it gonna stop?
And that leads to the lastfeeling of despair is like it's
(29:56):
never going to end.
It just year after year.
Year after year, hundreds ofcourt, you know, dozens of court
appearances where it was like Ikept thinking now is going to
be the day.
And my partner, Chris, wouldsometimes come with me and he'd
be like, There's only so manytimes.
And I'd be like, Be quiet,like, stop.
That's not helpful.
Yeah.
And I'd come out and he'd belike, and I'd say, Nope.
(30:16):
Again, like nothing'shappening.
It was so aggravating.
So that's the thing that ourpeople are living with every
single day.
And what's difficult is youcannot show these emotions in
court.
You can't show it to judges.
You can't show it to custodyevaluators.
You need to have those feelingsand get them out elsewhere.
(30:38):
And on Sundays, we actuallyhave a weekly legal abuse
support group.
And one of our clients, who isalso a mental health
professional, because we havelots of lawyers and mental
health professionals among youknow other very successful
people.
She is just beside herself.
She's furious.
She kind of went off on likehow she feels and how unfair it
(30:58):
is.
And it was like, I'm so gladthat she was able to get it out.
And everyone there could relateto those feelings.
But we knew like this is forhere.
This is to get it out, have theoutlet, but like cannot do this
in court.
So we do a lot of work onproper presentation.
Mary (31:15):
Yeah.
Wow.
You've covered so many bases.
Two things occur to me.
One is you're right with theemotion.
I think not just because of thelegal part of it, but someone
who has this type of personalitydisorder, they feed on the
emotion.
And that's partly why thingsare so difficult.
If you acquiesce to everythingand you're like, yeah, whatever.
(31:37):
As soon as you started to standon your own two feet and take a
stand against something, that'swhen the flares came up and the
anger came out.
And so keeping um the emotionsin check also helps that
situation.
But I'm thinking about hislawyer.
Lisa (31:56):
Multiple lawyers.
Mary (31:58):
Wow.
Because I can't imagine beingsomeone with as a good
intentioned lawyer having aclient like that and being okay
with the manipulation and all ofthe things that went into that.
Lisa (32:12):
They often choose lawyers that are very similar to them.
They do not usually choose likereally above-board lawyers
because, you know, I think backto the different lawyers that my
ex chose.
If they had just said, look,you've got these orders, you
have this agreement, you betterjust pay what's owed because the
longer this continues, the moreyou're going to end up paying.
(32:34):
You're going to have to keeptaking off work.
You have all this interest andpenalties.
This is public record.
This is affecting yourreputation.
No lawyer said that to him.
Instead, they just keptattacking me, making it me feel
like I didn't have the right toask for the relief that I had
already been awarded, making mefeel like I was being some kind
of like vigilante that wasworking outside the system.
(32:58):
And it lawyers will oftengaslight us into thinking like
by even standing up for ourrights, that we're committing a
crime.
And I remember one of thelawyers, um, the Connecticut
lawyer would always say to me,Well, you know, Lisa, you don't
really understand because you'renot an attorney.
That same attorney not onlylied in court countless times,
(33:21):
but while we were arguing at theappellate level, she lied on
the record to a panel of judgesthat were deciding the case.
And I called, I said, wait asecond, because she claimed that
he had paid the one of theamounts that was due.
And I said, That's completelynot true.
He he's never paid that.
That's why we're here.
And the the judge paused thehearing and said to her, Wait a
second, is that true?
(33:41):
And she goes, Well, I thought,I thought she goes, No, no, no,
no, no, no.
You're gonna have to now submitum something like uh like an
affidavit to correct the record.
And when they actuallypublished the case as case law,
my favorite part was one of thelittle footnotes that said that
his lawyer was presentinginformation that was devoid of
law and fact.
(34:02):
So they basically, that is theworst thing you can say about
someone who's a lawyer who'ssupposed to be operating in law,
in fact, that she was not doingeither.
And I thought, how embarrassingfor you! Like this is your
career, and I'm not a lawyer.
And here you are now becauseyou pushed it this far by not
telling the truth, byencouraging your client not to
(34:23):
be truthful and honest and aboveboard.
And now look what happens.
Like, how does this affect yourentire professional reputation?
So it was really, reallydifficult dealing with some of
these people.
A lot of them, um, including myexes, tend to be bullying.
They not only bullied me, theybullied uh when I my my first
attorney, and occasionally Iwould ask attorneys to help me
(34:45):
do parts of it, and they gotbullied as well.
And it was just like, this iscrazy.
I might as well just do itmyself.
And that felt really good, alsotriumphing, not just over my
ex, but but his attorneys.
Mary (34:55):
Yeah.
Well, and keeping your head inall of it, being present enough
in that situation to recognizeshe's saying something that's
not true, and then having thecourage to call it, call it.
It was scary.
Lisa (35:07):
I mean, I had to check with my dad because I would, I
would get, I would get thesefilings.
I'd be like, oh my gosh, oh mygosh, oh my god.
My dad'd be like, let me justread it.
And he would look at it andhe'd be like, This case law
doesn't exist.
This is this doesn't evenrelate to what she's saying.
Like, this is so full of holes.
Like, don't worry about it.
But if it were just me on myown, I I mean, it was really,
(35:29):
really terrifying.
Every time I would get anorder, I would shake.
And it got to the point, evenwhen it was, they were always in
my favor, it just they weren'tbeing enforced, but I would
still like tremble.
I'd have to read it two orthree times.
Even to this day, sometimes Igo out to the mailbox and I'm
nervous to open it because therewere so many mailings from the
(35:50):
court to be like, oh my gosh,what is it now?
Like, what's the decision?
And this is even while beingvictorious all these times.
Like, I don't think I ever gotbad orders, but I still felt
like, what if the judge changesher mind?
What if, what if somehow theydon't get it?
Like, what if nobody ever doesanything about this?
So it was just this constantsense of fear.
(36:12):
And that's the same thing thatour clients experience,
especially in just communicatingwith their ex, because they
live with this sense of dread oflike, what's the next thing
that's gonna happen?
They're gonna try to take thekids away, they're gonna try to
change the amount of money, likethey're gonna file new motions
on me, um, you know, trying tosay I'm an unfit parent.
So it's just this terroristattack, like I said.
Mary (36:35):
Wow, so traumatic.
And so you bring up the kids,and I know you you shared your
experience.
There wasn't really a custodyfight.
But how do you help parents whothat is the biggest part of
this where they're worried aboutthe ex is going to try to
poison the kids against them ormisrepresent things?
How do you help them or whatadvice do you give them?
Lisa (36:57):
Uh, so there's a quote that I love that I got from an
interview I did with a bodyguardwho actually started a
nonprofit with domestic violencecalled Protection from Abuse.
His name is Steve Dana, and hesays, an abuser's greatest tool
is fear.
And that is the thing thatparalyzes people at all stages.
So we have people at the verybeginning of the process who
(37:18):
don't know what to expect, andtheir ex's voices in their head
saying, You don't have rights tothis.
This is mine, this is how it'sgoing to be.
And they believe it.
So educating them on thecustody factors as well as
something called the alienationfactors and what to expect and
what's reasonable and what'stypical based on their situation
can help assuage those fearsbecause it's like, oh, but my
(37:41):
ex, and they'll be like, but mybut my ex is, but I'm just like,
but that's not, that's notreal.
That's why it's also soimportant to talk to an attorney
and learn what reality is andto not get pressured into
thinking that that person'sgonna be your ally and you
they're gonna be fair and aboveboard because unless it's super
amicable, they're out forthemselves.
And so you need to take care ofyourself.
(38:02):
So addressing that fear isreally important and getting
their voice out of your head isimportant.
So, first understanding whatthe custody fact, best interest
factors are, custody factors,alienation factors are.
But for me, the best way tostart dealing with someone like
this is what we do with everyoneat every stage, and we call it
(38:22):
strategic communication.
And that's uh we actually havea course.
It's called How to Communicatewith Your Ex Without Destroying
Your Case or Losing Your Mind.
Because, like I said, most ofour clients have PTSD, at least
when they meet us.
And so when you learn how tocommunicate properly with your
ex in writing only, where you'rewriting to your ex, but you're
(38:43):
writing for the invisibleaudience, always it's a judge, a
custody evaluator, an attorneyfor the child, mediator,
whoever, you want to make surethat you are presenting as the
best co-parent ever, knowingwhat matters to the court
because you'll know thosefactors.
At the same time, you'redocumenting that person's
(39:04):
patterns of behavior over timeand the impact it has on your
children and on yourrelationship with your children,
because we know that they'regonna try to create what's
called a loyalty conflict, likeyou're with me or against me
with the kids.
And that's the like that's thetopic of our upcoming book and
course.
So I think knowledge is power.
And once you understand what'sgoing on, there's a lot less to
(39:26):
be afraid of.
Because even if it's like, ohno, no, like what's the worst
case scenario?
A lot of times when we talkabout it, then we can come up
with a plan.
And also to keep in mind thatnothing generally, except maybe
in New Jersey, a restrainingorder, but most things are not
forever.
Most things you can go backafter a year and a half to two
years to get a modification ofsomething.
(39:48):
So we often say it's not thatyou lose, it's that you give up
too soon because you lose hope.
And that's why it's soimportant to have what we call
the marathon mindset and getsupport from a team of people
who are like, yes, let's say yougot like a gut punch and this
is awful, but there's more to bedone.
This is not the end of thestory.
So if you have to wait anotheryear or two years, we'll deal
(40:09):
with it and we'll build a reallypowerful case.
We'll do whatever we can, butnot to just say, okay, my kids
have been turned against me andthey're never going to talk to
me again.
And, you know, I don't I don'thave the energy to fight my ex.
Like that, it's it's reallyimportant to not not just let
your your kids go.
And it is really scary whenthat person is turning the kids
(40:30):
against you, but there's a lotyou can do legally, and there's
a lot even more so that you cando outside of court.
Mary (40:37):
Lisa, this is amazing what you do for people.
Like I didn't even realize thatthere were people like you that
can coach, I mean, coach,mentor, support with all of
these resources kind of behindthe scenes or as a safety net.
I think that's amazing.
Lisa (40:56):
Thanks.
So I like to say I don't thinkwe have too much competition.
I don't really know of anycompetition that we have because
I think just the experience,you know, I don't know anyone
who's been in the legal systemfor as long as I have and and
had the victories and all ofthat.
So um it can be really helpfulbecause people are just
devastated when they meet us.
(41:17):
And it's good to be able tosay, I feel you.
I have been there for a reallylong time, but I can promise you
that you can get through thiswith the right support.
Plus, even in the midst of allthose years in court, I'm at the
love of my life.
We have a business togethernow.
It's the best job ever.
(41:37):
We we help save people'sfamilies.
Like it's so rewarding.
And the irony is that Icouldn't go back to teaching
high school because I was incourt all the time.
So my kids got older, they wentoff to college.
I was like, I'm ready to comeback.
Couldn't do it because I keptdropping everything to go back
to court.
And then COVID hit.
And I was like, you know what?
(41:58):
Actually, I think I can teach.
And now I can do it at a globallevel.
Like we have clients in Indiaand Africa, all over North
America.
And we always say the laws aredifferent, but the issues are
the same.
And so it's so rewarding to seethe transformation in the
people that we work with.
We call it from puddle toninja, to see these people who
(42:21):
have like, they're so successfulin other areas, they're an
absolute emotional mess and theyfeel embarrassed and ashamed
because they're like, I'm amental health professional,
like, how could I not recognizethis?
Or I'm a lawyer, like, how canI not be able to deal with this
person?
And then to watch themsometimes very quickly be like,
oh my gosh, like I'm not scaredand I don't believe this person
(42:42):
anymore.
And I can't believe I everbelieved that.
And now we can laugh about it.
And there's so much humor withthese people.
They're so nutty, like thethings that they say and do,
that it's just, yeah, we alwayshave lots of inspiration for
hysterical content.
Mary (42:59):
Well, I think this is so hopeful.
I mean, everything you'resaying, like even your
resilience, and there could besomebody that had walked the
path that you did and are justreally mired in bitterness.
And I can imagine there weretimes you felt bitter, but I
feel like you just rewrote yourwhole story by persevering and
(43:19):
you know, and your dad, you havea cool dad.
Lisa (43:24):
I know.
I mean, that was such a bondingopportunity.
My dad and uncle are now 85,and we see we get together for
lunch every single Thursday.
Mary (43:33):
That's great.
Lisa (43:34):
Yeah.
Mary (43:35):
That's great.
Lisa (43:35):
And thank God we're not doing legal stuff though.
Mary (43:38):
Yeah.
Now you can just talk aboutevery weekend.
Lisa (43:41):
Ugh, yeah.
But I couldn't have done itwithout my dad.
That's great.
Yeah.
Mary (43:45):
So, okay, so you have a book.
Tell us again the name of thebook that you already published.
Lisa (43:50):
Okay, I'll show you.
So it's called Been There, GotOut, Toxic Relationships, High
Conflict Divorce, and How toStay Sane Under Insane
Circumstances.
So that's a lot about like whatit's like to separate or
divorce or deal with a custodyissue with one of these very
difficult people, what toexpect, how to choose the right
lawyer, et cetera, et cetera.
So, like our brand ispractical, actionable advice.
(44:13):
So it's very like try this,this, this, this, this.
Um, the next book I am reallyexcited about.
It's called When Your Ex Turnsthe Kids Against You.
We have a course that I'mworking on that's like 20 plus
hours related to it, but itdeals with the topic, it's a
controversial label of parentalalienation.
It's also called poisoning thewell, um, sometimes abuse by
(44:36):
proxy or a type of coercivecontrol, or when a child rejects
a parent because the otherparent has caused a rift between
them, a rupture that isunnatural.
So unfortunately, this isprobably one of the most common
things that we see in ourcommunity because we only deal
with extreme cases and domesticviolence.
(44:56):
And it makes perfect sensebecause it's like, how can they
still hurt you post-separation?
Money, the court, and yourchildren.
And money and the court go handin hand and your kids last the
longest.
And so that's why they will tryto get in their heads and make
them turn against you.
And so we have many heartbrokenclients who are figuring out
(45:19):
ways to try to get the kidsback.
And we have had some incrediblesuccess stories.
Um, so I feel like putting abook out that's based on
hundreds of interviews and justour own experience with our
clients and having some successstories.
Also, a very close friend ofmine had her two girls turned
(45:41):
against her and no contact foreight years.
And in the process of writingthe book, they came back to her
being in their 20s and um theylet me interview them
individually.
Mary (45:52):
Wow.
Lisa (45:53):
And so there's a chapter in the book that's describes
what it's like from the child'sperspective, because many
parents who have been alienatedfrom their kids assume that
their kids hate them and don'twant anything to do with them,
but they don't understand thattheir kids are also victims of
domestic violence and they'rebasically like hostages.
And so if you just believe yourex's narrative that they want
(46:17):
nothing to do with you and yourkids are rejecting you, and you
just need to like move on withyour life and forget about them,
you're you're doing the worstthing possible is because you're
basically sealing the deal andyou're leaving them with the
terrorist who has convinced themthat one of their primary
attachment figures has abandonedthem, which is just not true.
So it's and you know, we thinkkids are gonna stay kids, but
(46:41):
these kids grow up into adultsand they've got the rest of
their lives.
And so we have to think aboutthe long-term effects of um
having a child turned against usand really, really fight for
for that relationship to repair.
Mary (46:55):
Yeah, for sure.
So when will your second bookbe out?
Lisa (46:59):
January.
Oh, exciting! Yes, yes, and thecourse, I'm like, it's gonna be
ready.
It's like two-thirds done.
And every time I'm working, I'mlike, oh, there's more, but
there's more, there's more.
I like the book itself.
I think I included 52 differentexperts, like advice and stuff
from them too.
So it's not like Chris and Idon't talk about our own stories
(47:21):
really.
We we take stuff from peoplethat again are also working in
this this field every singleday.
So lawyers and therapists andcoaches and people, trauma
experts that can helpefficiently and effectively deal
with this issue.
But it is not easy.
Mary (47:38):
No, and I think it's important to note that Chris had
his own situation, right?
So we, even though this show isreally a podcast for women, it
is not just men that are theones that are difficult in these
situations, that men also havetheir own difficulties and
challenges and struggles withwives and all of those things.
Lisa (48:00):
Yeah, we always say abuse is a human issue, not a gender
issue.
And actually, our legal abusesupport group, um, I like to say
we do a very unusual thing inthe domestic violence space in
that we combine our male andfemale clients together for that
group.
And it is incredible to see menand women supporting each
other.
It's especially interesting forwomen to hear the perspective
(48:25):
of male victims of domesticviolence because they see they
have a lot more in common thanthey ever expected.
And a lot of times we alwayswelcome like our clients to come
on if they want with theirpartners or family members.
And so we have a number ofcouples that will come to the
group together, and often the,you know, it'll be like a man
and a woman, and the woman willbe speaking for her partner, her
(48:46):
husband about like how he'sbeen so effective and affected
and how her own life is affectedby this female terrorist.
We also have same-sex couples,um, women in particular, who
will describe what theirex-wives are doing to their
child or to them.
And so it's really eye-openingfor people to come together.
(49:06):
Um, I remember in particular,what this is one of my favorite.
I mean, there's so many awesomemoments.
I love working on the weekendsbecause of this group.
But one of our male clients wasum describing, he has two young
children.
He was describing howuncomfortable he feels at their
school on the playground becausehe said, you know, it's mostly
(49:29):
women.
And and I feel like she, my excomes up to me on the playground
and she she makes me feel souncomfortable and I'm I'm really
nervous.
And but I I feel like I can'tsay anything because people are
thinking, oh, well, he's a guyand he's he's bad and who knows
what she said about me.
And so one of our femaleclients said, I know what to do.
She goes, try this.
(49:49):
She said, when when she comesup to you, hold your hands up
like this and say in a reallyloud voice, now is not the time.
Because when people see someonegoing like that, that cue is
like like I'm in danger.
Like, or and she said, or say,this is not the place.
But she said, I guarantee youpeople are not going to look at
you as like the abusive one.
They're gonna look at her andsay, What is she doing?
(50:11):
And um, and it was justwonderful to see like the the
response after that too.
It was really helpful advice.
Mary (50:19):
Yeah, I love that that you combine the groups to re
because really I think that alsokeeps people real.
It keeps them recognizing thatall men are not bad.
This, you know, this was asituation, this was a
personality, this was a person.
And I think that can be reallyvaluable.
Lisa (50:34):
Yeah, we just had it.
We had this happened sometimesbecause, like I said, we have a
lot of lawyers in the groupwhere sometimes a couple of them
will go off on their lawyersand then one of the clients will
be like, I'm really sorry, butI'm gonna learn.
They're like, oh no, no, no.
So it's like you can't alwaysstereotype and group everyone
together.
Mary (50:54):
No, it's across the board.
It can happen to anyone.
And I think that's alsosomething that is so powerful to
recognize that again, ithappens to everyone.
So, or it can happen to anyone.
So I think that's alsoimportant to recognize and
remember.
And you just do such importantwork.
And of course, I will link yourwebsite in the show notes.
(51:16):
And I'm guessing all of yourresources, that's the jumping
off point where people can findwhat they need.
So we'll thank you for beinghere, Lisa.
My pleasure.
Thanks for allowing me to talkabout this uh difficult topic.
And congratulations for gettingthrough everything.
It's pretty amazing.
Lisa (51:31):
Thank you.
I'm grateful every single day.
Yeah.
Mary (51:35):
And I want to thank everyone for listening.
If you enjoyed and learnedsomething from today's episode,
consider supporting the show atthe link in the show notes or
forward it to someone that youknow it could help.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
I once entered into a situationwhere I gave someone rights to
something that I bought and paidfor, and then they wouldn't
(00:49):
give it back.
It's a long and sordid story,and honestly, I should have
known better.
But one of those situationswhere I ignored the red flags,
and you know how that goes.
And also one that showed methat people can profess to care
about you and a short time laterfight tooth and nail to take
something from you to which theyhave no right.
In my situation, this persondug in their heels and literally
(01:11):
would not give me what was mineuntil I involved an attorney.
And finally, just to end theassociation, I paid them to give
me what was already mine andget out of my life.
In the end, it was easier toaccept terms that were unfair to
me just to resolve thestalemate.
That situation to this dayremains the worst conflict I've
had to navigate in my life.
(01:31):
Knowing this person, I can'timagine what would it have been
like if there had been a custodyissue involved.
However, my guest today has astory that makes my experience
look like a shoving match on theplayground.
Lisa Johnson is the co-founderof Been There Got Out, a high
conflict divorce strategist andcertified domestic violence
(01:52):
advocate who helps men and womenall over the world navigate the
legal system with an abusiveex.
She and her partner Chris coachpeople to help them navigate
highly conflicted relationships.
She is the co-author of BeenThere Got Out: Toxic
Relationships, High ConflictDivorce, and How to Stay Sane
Under Insane Circumstances.
(02:13):
And she has a new book comingout soon, and we'll talk more
about that in our discussion.
Welcome to No ShrinkingViolets, Lisa.
Thank you so much for hostingme.
Yeah, I'm excited to jump intothis.
Um, and I always have peoplestart by sharing their story.
And I think you have a lot ofthings to say, but give us sort
of the highlights because I knowit has fueled a lot of what you
(02:37):
do now.
Okay.
Lisa (02:38):
So I'm always like, hmm, where do you want me to start?
So I'll start with, I guess,the end, um, the end of the
marriage.
So I was basically with my exfor nearly 20 years, married for
almost 18.
And I thought he was my bestfriend.
I never expected that theentire time he was living a
(02:59):
double life.
Um, found that out about twoyears before the actual moving
him out of the home, which tookthose full couple of years to
get to happen.
And so um, I never thought Iwould get a divorce.
I thought that was the worstthing that anybody could do in
terms of me, like uh ruining ourintact family.
(03:20):
And that was also the messagewas given to me by my ex that if
I did divorce him, that ourkids' lives would be destroyed.
So that kept me kind ofclinging on and doing everything
I could to keep it going.
But um, at some point it becamemore painful to stay than to
go.
So I met with an attorney.
Um, and within 20 minutes ofthe consult, he said, yours is
(03:43):
going to be one of the reallybad ones, which was shocking to
me because, like I said, Ithought my ex was a good person
who had just done some badthings and that we would just
amicably separate and and um,you know, go our separate ways,
but that's not what happened.
And so what as my lawyer hadpredicted, the divorce ended up
costing $100,000 and taking justabout a year.
(04:06):
I always say, I'm gonna paythat back forever.
And then I spent another nineyears in court dealing with him
post-separation orpost-judgment, um, mostly
financial issues.
And uh yeah, through so Irepresented myself for about
seven and a half years throughabout a hundred court
appearances in two states and uhprevailed.
(04:27):
And I love to say that justiceand karma took a very long time,
but it was finally servedbeautifully.
And the cherry on top was thatI also represented myself at the
appellate court level, thehigher court, um, which I was
told be very careful becauseit's very serious.
But I did it, and not only didI win, but uh the case was so
notable that it got published ascase law for the state, which
(04:49):
is a huge honor for an attorney.
And everyone I've ever spokento said they have never heard of
a self-represented litigant orpro se being turned into case
law.
So that's one of my big umtriumphs.
And then along the way, I alsosubmitted live testimony for
something called Jennifer's Law.
This was in 2021, and um itpassed.
(05:12):
And so my state of Connecticutbecame the third in America to
have coercive control laws.
We basically expanded our legaldefinition of domestic violence
to include all of thatinvisible abuse that people
don't seem to take as seriouslybesides physical.
So, like emotional, verbal,psychological, financial,
stalking, digital abuse, sexualabuse, revenge porn, legal
(05:36):
abuse, which is my specialty,and all of those things that
keep a person stuck in um therelationship and feeling like
they cannot get away.
So that was also a big victory.
And at this point, maybe Ithink 10 or 11 states also have
now um passed coercive controllaws.
Mary (05:56):
Oh my gosh.
Okay, so that was thehighlight.
And you know, I when I hearstories like this and I talk to
so many women and they are justliving their life, and then
there's a pivotal moment.
And I think for you, it soundslike there were several pivotal
moments, but it ends up reallyopening up this whole new avenue
(06:16):
that helps women help otherpeople.
So that's it, it's just youknow, turning something so
awful.
I can't even imagine you goingthrough it, like what that must
have been like.
It sounds like it was endless.
Lisa (06:31):
It was, and actually, I forgot to say the final thing
that happened was on the daythat my ex was finally, finally,
finally ordered to pay theamounts and the overdue arreages
and interest and penalties.
Uh, I was I was so happybecause I was like, finally,
like it's gonna be done.
And his lawyer followed medownstairs and came up to me
(06:55):
outside and handed me paperssaying that they were suing us
for a million dollars indefamation, and then it went up
to four million dollars indefamation.
So it was like just when Ithought it was finally ending,
then there's another curveball,and that took another few
months, but we got rid of thatourselves.
But it was it was scary becausethis was post Johnny Depp and
(07:17):
Amber Heard, and I just thought,oh my gosh, oh my gosh, but it
was it was totally fine.
Mary (07:21):
So, do you have legal training other than what you had
to learn?
Lisa (07:25):
No, but my master's degree is in education.
I was a high school Englishteacher and I am a professional
writer.
And so all of those skills,which I didn't realize at the
time, were really helping me.
Plus, my dad and uncle areidentical twins, and they happen
to be patent attorneys.
They are not litigators, theydon't know anything about family
(07:46):
law, which is its own WildWest, but they do speak some
legalese, I like to say.
So my dad was able to help mein the background, like as I
would write these beautiful longspeeches that were never to be
said.
This court is very short.
Um, my dad would would listento me and would tell me to write
the word pause because I talkreally fast, or he would say,
(08:07):
that's gonna upset the judge.
You don't want to do that.
And you know, he he was good athelping me um just put together
the procedural parts, but I Idid have to go in by myself and
and present.
And court can be really, reallyscary and you have to pivot a
lot because there's so muchhappening, and especially not
being an attorney, you have toreally pay attention to people's
(08:29):
body language, especially thejudge.
So if the judge is, you know,looking the other way, looking
at the clock, you have to changedirections.
So I had a lot of uh practiceand I always say I got my best
education in the trenches, butno, I don't have any legal
training.
I did consider going to lawschool after college, but my
major was English.
Um, I I always enjoyed mybusiness.
(08:51):
I took one, one, I tookactually two classes in high
school.
It was like civil law, criminallaw, and then in college I took
business law.
And I thought it wasfascinating, but I I really
loved teaching instead.
Mary (09:04):
Well, I think they should have given you an honorary law
degree at the end of all this.
So I'm thinking about so manythings because my what I I'm a
therapist.
So I'm thinking, first of all,I worked in, I was a high school
counselor, so I hadinteractions with lots of
students, lots of kids who were,I'm guessing you have kids, and
(09:24):
what what led over into thepost-divorce stuff was probably
custody stuff and you know, uhchild support and all of those
things.
And I have seen that impact onkids.
So I can imagine that is whereyou got the energy to continue
to keep fighting for things foryour kids.
Lisa (09:45):
Yeah, I mean, we luckily didn't have custody issues so
much.
I well, I mean, a lot of theclients that we work with are
dealing with custody battles, sothey're fighting over the kids.
This is this very sad.
And actually, my son made acomment once.
He said, I wish dad had foughtfor us, but my ex did the
opposite.
He basically abandoned them.
(10:06):
So when we split, it was almostlike he discarded all of us
together and we had open-endedvisitation.
I was like, Where are you?
And he just didn't really showup.
So um, it was very differentfrom a lot of the scenarios that
we hear about when we thinkabout high conflict divorce.
Mary (10:25):
So I'm also thinking you were with him for 20 years and
then literally going to battlein the courtroom and having him
sit there and know.
I mean, this history that youhave with him.
Do you remember through all ofit, I guess in the beginning,
was there a moment when youreally saw him for who he was?
Like, do you remember that?
Lisa (10:46):
You know, there's it's like hindsight is 2020, and we
always look back and go, whydidn't I pay attention to the
red flags?
There were always signs thatthere was something going on in
the background.
But at the time, I was alsovery young.
I was about 23 when we gottogether.
And so um, he was seven yearsolder than me.
And that's one thing thatactually attracted me to him was
(11:08):
I felt like he's a man.
Like he's, you know, beforethis, I was dating these
teenagers and men children, andhe was responsible, he had a
great career.
Um, he was in informationtechnology, he owned a home.
And in my head, I thought,because I also had before we
met, I had backpacked throughEurope.
(11:29):
And um, my first book isactually about that.
But I lived in Hungarypost-communism.
So um it was very uh likeunstable, but super fun.
And in my head, I got this ideathat when I come back to
America, I should settle down at23.
I should settle down, like Ishould get a job and and really
grow up.
And so meeting him kind of inmy head filled this fantasy of
(11:53):
like this is if I'm with thiskind of person, he's very
stable, you know, traveling,backpacking, you never know if
you could afford things.
So I thought he's, you know, ifwe have a family together, I
won't have to worry about thatkind of instability.
It was complete opposite.
But but um also this was um, Iwas never into technology, and
(12:14):
he was.
And one of the things he toldme from the beginning was that
his job as a technology personrequired him to be on the
computer a lot, but also becausehe was so smart that a lot of
people didn't understand him.
And so I probably wouldn't beable to completely understand
him.
And that's why he was spendinga lot of time in these chat
rooms in AOL, because that'swhat was happening in the 90s,
(12:36):
um, because he was connectingwith people who really
understood his gifted level ofintelligence.
And so there was this sort ofgrooming going on from the very
beginning that he was sobrilliant, and I just couldn't
ever reach his level.
So, you know, just let him kindof do his thing.
And I didn't, I just acceptedthat because when we get
together with someone that welove, we trust them.
Mary (12:59):
Yeah.
Well, and I think when youstart to recognize it, I know
women can it, you know, it comesto you slowly.
Like you said, you you'll feelsomething, it's not quite right,
and you ignore it.
And then I think when kids comeinto the picture, it can cloud
it even more.
You told this story of someonewho is very self-sufficient
doing this backpacking, and youknow, and I think sometimes when
(13:22):
we end up in these situations,we can feel ashamed.
Like, how did I ever let ithappen?
But it's so insidious.
It starts and then it gets outof control.
So I think that's also whatmakes it so important what
you're doing, because helpingwomen and supporting them to
recognize that some of us fallinto these things, like the
(13:43):
thing that I shared in thebeginning of you know, this
episode.
I could not believe thathappened to me because that
wasn't that long ago.
And I'm not a stupid woman.
So I think that it's, you know,again, it's not about being,
you know, how smart you are.
It's just sometimes there arepeople that are very good at you
use the word grooming.
And I think it's important toknow that.
(14:04):
So I know one of the things youtalk about is how to kind of
anticipate if you're going to bein a situation like maybe
you're thinking of leaving,you're contemplating divorce.
How do you know what are someof the signs that it might be a
pretty contentious separation?
Lisa (14:20):
Okay.
Well, first of all, let me justclarify.
I want to comment on somethingyou said about like
intelligence.
Domestic violence affects onein three women and one in five
men at some point, at least onceduring their lives.
Those numbers are tremendous.
Now, the people that we workwith tend to be highly educated,
super successful professionals.
(14:42):
And so there's an added levelof shame because they are
perceived as role models andpeople that others look up to.
And that often makes themunable to talk about what
they're experiencing becausethey'll hear things like, I
never thought you, of allpeople, would fall for something
like that.
Or why did you stay so long?
And so that's why we hidethings, but don't think that
(15:05):
it's just happening to a fewpeople.
Every time, anywhere I go, Imention what I do.
I always have people coming upto me saying, that's my
situation, that's someone I lovesituation.
So just know this is this islike rampant, this these kinds
of things.
And often it does happen to themost successful, responsible,
(15:25):
beautiful human beings becausethey are picked as targets.
The the irony is that we blameourselves for being foolish for
for falling for people likethis, but we have to keep in
mind that that abusive peopletarget, we call our shining
stars, like the most amazinghuman beings because we make
(15:46):
them look good.
We polish their star.
And that's why they are soangry when the relationship
ends, because now it's likewe've destroyed whether we chose
to leave or they did, but nowthat perfect image, because
appearances matter a lot topeople like that, has been
ruined and things split.
We're now they're the victimand we're the villain, and
(16:07):
everything is blamed on us.
Um, so I forgot your original.
Mary (16:12):
No, you're you actually are segueing into it.
And I really appreciate thatyou said that.
That's why I wanted to clarify.
I want to use the word stupidbecause we are very quick to
assign words to ourselves, toit, like, you know, women use
the word selfish or I was sostupid.
And no, you weren't stupid.
Again, as somebody who works inthe mental health field, it's
very common to encounter someonethat has a different set of
(16:37):
rules in how they operate in arelationship.
And we tend to often think itmust be me.
Nobody would intentionally dothat.
No one would intentionally lieto me.
No one would intentionally,whatever it is.
And so we spin it around andthink, well, maybe I'm doing
something wrong or I'mmisinterpreting.
So I'm glad that you broughtthat up because it's really
(16:57):
important to understand thatdynamic.
And I know you've used the wordnarcissist, and I'm always
really careful because I thinkwe use those words narcissist,
sociopath without reallyunderstanding.
But in these situations, it isthose traits of, like you're
saying, I need to look good.
No one really understands me.
(17:19):
I'm special and people want toappear special.
Or in the case of if it's moresociopathic, it is intentional
hurts, like really trying to gofor the jugulars.
But I think if we use a broadpaintbrush, we can say it's
someone who is in a relationshipfunctioning with a different
set of rules.
They're not coming from a placeof loving their partner, it's
(17:42):
often loving themselves orloving their own objectives.
And it's hard to see that.
So I'm really glad that youclarified.
Lisa (17:49):
And the question was And I remember the question
indicators of high conflict.
Yes.
Okay.
So remember what I had said.
Like I never pictured thisbeing high conflict.
My ex always seemed reallyreasonable, but he was
deceitful.
So I told you about thisattorney that I chose as my
divorce attorney who predictedthat mine was going to be really
(18:11):
bad.
And so before I wrote the book,the first book that we did, I
interviewed him and I said,Eric, how did you know that mine
was going to be bad?
He had never um thought aboutthe specific things, but as he
was talking to me, I organizedthem into a few different
factors.
But one of the most importantindicators of high conflict
divorce is somebody who doeshave some kind of mental illness
(18:34):
and or active addiction.
And again, active addiction,I'm not talking about someone in
recovery, but someone who's notin their right mind has
impaired judgment.
And so often they can't evenmake decisions that are in their
own best interest.
And so they will do thingswithout thinking about the
consequences.
And they often will prolong theconflict, which goes into
(18:58):
another factor, which is angerthat does not subside.
So usually within four to sixmonths of a typical split,
people are angry.
And then at that point, it'slike, all right, already.
It's getting really expensive.
Like, how about we just settledown a little bit, pay the
bills, figure out what's bestfor the kids, and move on with
our lives.
That is the opposite of whathappens in high conflict,
(19:20):
separation and divorce, becauseour exes want to keep it going.
They want to continue theengagement and the anger does
not subside.
So they will do anything tocontinue to punish people like
us.
We we often have heard itcalled like a clinging kind of
hatred.
And again, it's because, youknow, there's there's usually
(19:42):
deep feelings of abandonmentwhen a relationship ends.
Again, it doesn't matter whowho caused the end of it, but um
it's so uncomfortable forsomeone like that to deal with
those feelings of discomfortthat it often transforms into
rage.
And then again, there's thatsplitting.
They're the victim, you're thevillain, and they will do
anything to destroy you.
(20:03):
They'll try to ruin yourreputation, they'll spend tons
of money, they'll spend all thekids' money.
They don't care about theimpact all the conflict has on
the kids.
So it's really, reallydifficult to um to do it like
short and sweet with someonelike this because they just want
to hurt you and they don't careabout that scorched earth that
happens along the way.
(20:24):
Another thing is somebody whofeels entitled to um all of the
assets and finances.
So often I say the quote, it'slike, what's mine is mine, and
what's yours is mine too.
So they feel like, why should Ihave to comply with the
discovery process?
Why should I have to show youwhat's owned?
Because that's my money.
(20:44):
And I know with my ex, therewere all kinds of things, which
I later learned the termfinancial abuse, where he would
he owned a lot of real estatewith his sister.
He would send things to hissister's address.
He would tell me that I didn'tunderstand, that taxes were
being done separately, and Ijust didn't question.
And I signed things I didn'treally pay attention to.
(21:05):
I let him take care of a lot ofthe money stuff.
It felt like I was in controlbecause I had access to our
joint account and was able topay the bills, but there were
all kinds of hidden accountsthat came out later and stuff
with the real estate that it waslike, oh my God, wow, you know,
all that stuff that he justthought, well, it's my money.
It's my stuff.
(21:26):
So those are some factors thatindicate high conflict divorce,
the ones that cost lots of moneyand go on for a long time.
Mary (21:34):
Yeah.
And bringing up financialabuse, that's something that we
don't talk about.
And it can be one of the mostparalyzing parts because slowly
things are taken away, orthere's, you know, barriers to
getting to the money, or likeyou're saying, there are
accounts that, you know, youit's your spouse.
Why would you read the fineprint?
(21:55):
Um, and you know, it's I thinkit's a hard line to walk because
there's trust, right?
You want to have trust withyour spouse, but I think there's
also a sense of autonomy thatwe need to have when we're in
these situations to really, Imean, make make sure you
understand where the money is inyour relationship.
So I think that is reallyimportant.
Lisa (22:15):
Yeah.
Financial abuse is present in99% of unhealthy relationships.
And there's again, there's somany levels of it, but a lot of
it is not understanding what'sgoing on, having to ask for an
allowance, being made to feellike you shouldn't have access.
You don't need to know what'sgoing on.
And again, that creates thatsense of dependency as I need
(22:37):
this person.
We've seen we've seen so manycases where a woman was saying,
you know, the children and Iwere basically living in
poverty.
My husband was saying we had nomoney.
And then during the divorce, Ifound out there was millions of
dollars.
He had a whole other apartmentin Manhattan.
And I can't believe that wewere living like that.
We didn't, I didn't even have acar to use.
And they were presenting thisscenario that, you know, of
(23:00):
course, the double standard,he's doing what he wants, and
and she and the kids are living,you know, in a very difficult
life.
Mary (23:07):
So if there's somebody now who's in the middle of this
mess, like you went through, andthey're not seeing the end of
it, they're seeing thesebehaviors of, you know, this
sustained anger and retribution.
What would you say to them?
Is there how did you cope?
What can you offer to somebodyelse?
Lisa (23:27):
Oh my gosh.
Like it was very, veryisolating.
And it is very isolating.
And so what I was dealing withis we call it legal abuse or
litigation abuse, stalkingthrough the court, um, judicial
terrorism, paper abuse.
So that's really where someoneis stuck in the legal system and
um, you know, trying to getorders to be complied with, or
(23:49):
dealing with someone filing lotsof motions against you and
trying to live your life withthat.
So it can feel like your lifeis consumed by a terrorist and
you're just stuck and you'rebleeding money and energy, and
you can't focus on your job andyou might lose your job.
And so it's really hard.
So it's very important to findsupport.
So we often talk about howpeople in this situation are
(24:12):
like the surface of the table.
And so the more legs they have,the more stable it can be.
But each leg has its pros andcons.
So, for example, friends andfamily are great if they can
support you, but a lot of ourclients have come from unhealthy
families of origin and or havebeen isolated from their support
systems.
So they don't have friends andfamily.
(24:32):
And even when they do havefriends and family, most of them
are not trained in domesticviolence.
And they'll say things like,Well, why didn't you just leave?
Why'd you stay so long?
How could you have fallen from?
So then that makes you feeleven more alone.
Plus, there's something callednegative advocates, which is a
term coined by Bill Eddy, who'san expert in high conflict
situations.
(24:53):
He founded the High ConflictInstitute.
And he talks about howsometimes the people we love
will fan the flames of conflictby being like, you deserve this,
your ex shouldn't be doingthis.
Why doesn't the judge just dothis?
And it's like, I'm dealing withmy own stuff and these strong
emotions of these other people.
Sometimes lawyers can benegative advocates.
So that's that cannot behealthy.
(25:14):
So, friends and family, then wehave the lawyer.
So when you're going through adivorce, you need to have a
lawyer because you need to knowyour legal rights.
Plus, it's the foundation ofeverything.
So I know I went pro se, but itwas post-judgment, it was
post-divorce.
I never could have done thatlike on my own.
So you really need to have alawyer.
But the lawyer's job is to beyour ally and your advocate and
(25:36):
to basically translate your caseinto the law.
But for so many of us, this isso emotional that we'll rely on
our lawyer.
And I certainly did, and that'swhy my divorce was so expensive
because my lawyer was my bestfriend for a year and I paid him
lots of money and he waswonderful, but I didn't realize
that there were other resourcesthat I should have been tapping
into besides him.
And lawyers also don't likecases like ours.
(25:58):
Like my wonderful lawyer said,Lisa, please don't ever send me
any of your clients because Idon't need the headache.
You know, I'm not interested inthese long, awful cases.
So then we have a therapist.
So often you need a therapistor a domestic violence advocate
to help you work through what'sgoing on and to help you heal.
Unfortunately, many therapistsare not um trained in the court
(26:22):
procedures and they have givenawful advice without meaning to,
like just gray rock or don'tcommunicate or just take the
kids and go and cross statelines, and then people end up
losing custody.
And so you really um rely onyour therapist to help you heal
and to work with your children,but not to give you legal
(26:43):
strategic advice because it canreally, really harm you.
Um, and so then Chris and I arethe one of the last legs.
I'm not talking about like realestate professionals and
financial advisors, um, whocertainly are are helpful for
many cases too, but we arehigh-conflict divorce
strategists who specialize inlegal abuse.
My own experience in court, mymy background training.
(27:05):
I was trained as a crisiscounselor in college, so I had
that too.
But um, we kind of fill the gapbetween what attorneys are not
trained to do and therapistsdon't understand.
So attorneys are also logical.
And so they tend to think, allright, this case is gonna settle
down, everybody's gonna dowhat's fair and do what's best
for the kids.
But that's not what our exescare about.
(27:27):
They care about themselves.
And so everything has to beapproached very, very
differently when you're dealingwith an individual like that,
because it won't follow thenormal cadence of, let's say,
divorce.
And so we always joke that ourclients, all, including me,
belong to the my lawyer saysthis is the craziest case I've
ever had club, because they justdon't know what to do and they
(27:48):
get fatigued.
That's why it is so importantto have this team of people that
are helping you get through itbecause you're especially if you
have children, the morestressed out you are, the more
your kids are gonna feel it.
And they can often feel likethey have to be responsible for
our emotional health.
And that's not healthy.
So the more self-regulated thatwe can be, the more we can sort
(28:12):
of have people our own age andyou know, our peers like helping
take care of us, then our kidscan feel like they can just live
their lives as much aspossible.
And the whole crazy divorcesituation is more peripheral
rather than like consuming themlike it consumes us.
It's really important to try toshield the kids from as much
conflict as possible because itit does impact them
(28:35):
significantly.
Mary (28:36):
It sounds like you're talking about you almost have a
whole team when you're in asituation like this.
Lisa (28:42):
Yeah.
Mary (28:43):
Well, and I'm sure it does consume you.
I don't know how you can thinkabout anything else because it
sounds like sometimes you'revery powerless.
Lisa (28:51):
Yeah.
I mean, I always think aboutthe three emotions that
characterize someone goingthrough legal abuse, where
there's yeah, you know, yearsyou're stuck in the court
system.
And so I experienced these forthose all of those days of all
of those 10 years.
Uh, one is a sense of rage.
Every morning I would wake upand for a moment I would forget
(29:13):
that what my life was was, andthen I would be like, I'm so
mad.
Like, this is so unfair.
And I found that I wasn't evenangry at my ex.
I was angry at the system forallowing it.
Because the more that thingscontinued to go along where
there wouldn't be consequences,where he was found in contempt
(29:33):
five times and nothing reallyhappened, it just emboldened the
abuse to continue.
And I just thought this is thisis like I'm so mad that this is
going on and how long is itgonna take?
Then the second is this senseof injustice.
Like here, the system that I'mturning to for relief is making
things worse.
And when is it gonna stop?
And that leads to the lastfeeling of despair is like it's
(29:56):
never going to end.
It just year after year.
Year after year, hundreds ofcourt, you know, dozens of court
appearances where it was like Ikept thinking now is going to
be the day.
And my partner, Chris, wouldsometimes come with me and he'd
be like, There's only so manytimes.
And I'd be like, Be quiet,like, stop.
That's not helpful.
Yeah.
And I'd come out and he'd belike, and I'd say, Nope.
(30:16):
Again, like nothing'shappening.
It was so aggravating.
So that's the thing that ourpeople are living with every
single day.
And what's difficult is youcannot show these emotions in
court.
You can't show it to judges.
You can't show it to custodyevaluators.
You need to have those feelingsand get them out elsewhere.
(30:38):
And on Sundays, we actuallyhave a weekly legal abuse
support group.
And one of our clients, who isalso a mental health
professional, because we havelots of lawyers and mental
health professionals among youknow other very successful
people.
She is just beside herself.
She's furious.
She kind of went off on likehow she feels and how unfair it
(30:58):
is.
And it was like, I'm so gladthat she was able to get it out.
And everyone there could relateto those feelings.
But we knew like this is forhere.
This is to get it out, have theoutlet, but like cannot do this
in court.
So we do a lot of work onproper presentation.
Mary (31:15):
Yeah.
Wow.
You've covered so many bases.
Two things occur to me.
One is you're right with theemotion.
I think not just because of thelegal part of it, but someone
who has this type of personalitydisorder, they feed on the
emotion.
And that's partly why thingsare so difficult.
If you acquiesce to everythingand you're like, yeah, whatever.
(31:37):
As soon as you started to standon your own two feet and take a
stand against something, that'swhen the flares came up and the
anger came out.
And so keeping um the emotionsin check also helps that
situation.
But I'm thinking about hislawyer.
Lisa (31:56):
Multiple lawyers.
Mary (31:58):
Wow.
Because I can't imagine beingsomeone with as a good
intentioned lawyer having aclient like that and being okay
with the manipulation and all ofthe things that went into that.
Lisa (32:12):
They often choose lawyers that are very similar to them.
They do not usually choose likereally above-board lawyers
because, you know, I think backto the different lawyers that my
ex chose.
If they had just said, look,you've got these orders, you
have this agreement, you betterjust pay what's owed because the
longer this continues, the moreyou're going to end up paying.
(32:34):
You're going to have to keeptaking off work.
You have all this interest andpenalties.
This is public record.
This is affecting yourreputation.
No lawyer said that to him.
Instead, they just keptattacking me, making it me feel
like I didn't have the right toask for the relief that I had
already been awarded, making mefeel like I was being some kind
of like vigilante that wasworking outside the system.
(32:58):
And it lawyers will oftengaslight us into thinking like
by even standing up for ourrights, that we're committing a
crime.
And I remember one of thelawyers, um, the Connecticut
lawyer would always say to me,Well, you know, Lisa, you don't
really understand because you'renot an attorney.
That same attorney not onlylied in court countless times,
(33:21):
but while we were arguing at theappellate level, she lied on
the record to a panel of judgesthat were deciding the case.
And I called, I said, wait asecond, because she claimed that
he had paid the one of theamounts that was due.
And I said, That's completelynot true.
He he's never paid that.
That's why we're here.
And the the judge paused thehearing and said to her, Wait a
second, is that true?
(33:41):
And she goes, Well, I thought,I thought she goes, No, no, no,
no, no, no.
You're gonna have to now submitum something like uh like an
affidavit to correct the record.
And when they actuallypublished the case as case law,
my favorite part was one of thelittle footnotes that said that
his lawyer was presentinginformation that was devoid of
law and fact.
(34:02):
So they basically, that is theworst thing you can say about
someone who's a lawyer who'ssupposed to be operating in law,
in fact, that she was not doingeither.
And I thought, how embarrassingfor you! Like this is your
career, and I'm not a lawyer.
And here you are now becauseyou pushed it this far by not
telling the truth, byencouraging your client not to
(34:23):
be truthful and honest and aboveboard.
And now look what happens.
Like, how does this affect yourentire professional reputation?
So it was really, reallydifficult dealing with some of
these people.
A lot of them, um, including myexes, tend to be bullying.
They not only bullied me, theybullied uh when I my my first
attorney, and occasionally Iwould ask attorneys to help me
(34:45):
do parts of it, and they gotbullied as well.
And it was just like, this iscrazy.
I might as well just do itmyself.
And that felt really good, alsotriumphing, not just over my
ex, but but his attorneys.
Mary (34:55):
Yeah.
Well, and keeping your head inall of it, being present enough
in that situation to recognizeshe's saying something that's
not true, and then having thecourage to call it, call it.
It was scary.
Lisa (35:07):
I mean, I had to check with my dad because I would, I
would get, I would get thesefilings.
I'd be like, oh my gosh, oh mygosh, oh my god.
My dad'd be like, let me justread it.
And he would look at it andhe'd be like, This case law
doesn't exist.
This is this doesn't evenrelate to what she's saying.
Like, this is so full of holes.
Like, don't worry about it.
But if it were just me on myown, I I mean, it was really,
(35:29):
really terrifying.
Every time I would get anorder, I would shake.
And it got to the point, evenwhen it was, they were always in
my favor, it just they weren'tbeing enforced, but I would
still like tremble.
I'd have to read it two orthree times.
Even to this day, sometimes Igo out to the mailbox and I'm
nervous to open it because therewere so many mailings from the
(35:50):
court to be like, oh my gosh,what is it now?
Like, what's the decision?
And this is even while beingvictorious all these times.
Like, I don't think I ever gotbad orders, but I still felt
like, what if the judge changesher mind?
What if, what if somehow theydon't get it?
Like, what if nobody ever doesanything about this?
So it was just this constantsense of fear.
(36:12):
And that's the same thing thatour clients experience,
especially in just communicatingwith their ex, because they
live with this sense of dread oflike, what's the next thing
that's gonna happen?
They're gonna try to take thekids away, they're gonna try to
change the amount of money, likethey're gonna file new motions
on me, um, you know, trying tosay I'm an unfit parent.
So it's just this terroristattack, like I said.
Mary (36:35):
Wow, so traumatic.
And so you bring up the kids,and I know you you shared your
experience.
There wasn't really a custodyfight.
But how do you help parents whothat is the biggest part of
this where they're worried aboutthe ex is going to try to
poison the kids against them ormisrepresent things?
How do you help them or whatadvice do you give them?
Lisa (36:57):
Uh, so there's a quote that I love that I got from an
interview I did with a bodyguardwho actually started a
nonprofit with domestic violencecalled Protection from Abuse.
His name is Steve Dana, and hesays, an abuser's greatest tool
is fear.
And that is the thing thatparalyzes people at all stages.
So we have people at the verybeginning of the process who
(37:18):
don't know what to expect, andtheir ex's voices in their head
saying, You don't have rights tothis.
This is mine, this is how it'sgoing to be.
And they believe it.
So educating them on thecustody factors as well as
something called the alienationfactors and what to expect and
what's reasonable and what'stypical based on their situation
can help assuage those fearsbecause it's like, oh, but my
(37:41):
ex, and they'll be like, but mybut my ex is, but I'm just like,
but that's not, that's notreal.
That's why it's also soimportant to talk to an attorney
and learn what reality is andto not get pressured into
thinking that that person'sgonna be your ally and you
they're gonna be fair and aboveboard because unless it's super
amicable, they're out forthemselves.
And so you need to take care ofyourself.
(38:02):
So addressing that fear isreally important and getting
their voice out of your head isimportant.
So, first understanding whatthe custody fact, best interest
factors are, custody factors,alienation factors are.
But for me, the best way tostart dealing with someone like
this is what we do with everyoneat every stage, and we call it
(38:22):
strategic communication.
And that's uh we actually havea course.
It's called How to Communicatewith Your Ex Without Destroying
Your Case or Losing Your Mind.
Because, like I said, most ofour clients have PTSD, at least
when they meet us.
And so when you learn how tocommunicate properly with your
ex in writing only, where you'rewriting to your ex, but you're
(38:43):
writing for the invisibleaudience, always it's a judge, a
custody evaluator, an attorneyfor the child, mediator,
whoever, you want to make surethat you are presenting as the
best co-parent ever, knowingwhat matters to the court
because you'll know thosefactors.
At the same time, you'redocumenting that person's
(39:04):
patterns of behavior over timeand the impact it has on your
children and on yourrelationship with your children,
because we know that they'regonna try to create what's
called a loyalty conflict, likeyou're with me or against me
with the kids.
And that's the like that's thetopic of our upcoming book and
course.
So I think knowledge is power.
And once you understand what'sgoing on, there's a lot less to
(39:26):
be afraid of.
Because even if it's like, ohno, no, like what's the worst
case scenario?
A lot of times when we talkabout it, then we can come up
with a plan.
And also to keep in mind thatnothing generally, except maybe
in New Jersey, a restrainingorder, but most things are not
forever.
Most things you can go backafter a year and a half to two
years to get a modification ofsomething.
(39:48):
So we often say it's not thatyou lose, it's that you give up
too soon because you lose hope.
And that's why it's soimportant to have what we call
the marathon mindset and getsupport from a team of people
who are like, yes, let's say yougot like a gut punch and this
is awful, but there's more to bedone.
This is not the end of thestory.
So if you have to wait anotheryear or two years, we'll deal
(40:09):
with it and we'll build a reallypowerful case.
We'll do whatever we can, butnot to just say, okay, my kids
have been turned against me andthey're never going to talk to
me again.
And, you know, I don't I don'thave the energy to fight my ex.
Like that, it's it's reallyimportant to not not just let
your your kids go.
And it is really scary whenthat person is turning the kids
(40:30):
against you, but there's a lotyou can do legally, and there's
a lot even more so that you cando outside of court.
Mary (40:37):
Lisa, this is amazing what you do for people.
Like I didn't even realize thatthere were people like you that
can coach, I mean, coach,mentor, support with all of
these resources kind of behindthe scenes or as a safety net.
I think that's amazing.
Lisa (40:56):
Thanks.
So I like to say I don't thinkwe have too much competition.
I don't really know of anycompetition that we have because
I think just the experience,you know, I don't know anyone
who's been in the legal systemfor as long as I have and and
had the victories and all ofthat.
So um it can be really helpfulbecause people are just
devastated when they meet us.
(41:17):
And it's good to be able tosay, I feel you.
I have been there for a reallylong time, but I can promise you
that you can get through thiswith the right support.
Plus, even in the midst of allthose years in court, I'm at the
love of my life.
We have a business togethernow.
It's the best job ever.
(41:37):
We we help save people'sfamilies.
Like it's so rewarding.
And the irony is that Icouldn't go back to teaching
high school because I was incourt all the time.
So my kids got older, they wentoff to college.
I was like, I'm ready to comeback.
Couldn't do it because I keptdropping everything to go back
to court.
And then COVID hit.
And I was like, you know what?
(41:58):
Actually, I think I can teach.
And now I can do it at a globallevel.
Like we have clients in Indiaand Africa, all over North
America.
And we always say the laws aredifferent, but the issues are
the same.
And so it's so rewarding to seethe transformation in the
people that we work with.
We call it from puddle toninja, to see these people who
(42:21):
have like, they're so successfulin other areas, they're an
absolute emotional mess and theyfeel embarrassed and ashamed
because they're like, I'm amental health professional,
like, how could I not recognizethis?
Or I'm a lawyer, like, how canI not be able to deal with this
person?
And then to watch themsometimes very quickly be like,
oh my gosh, like I'm not scaredand I don't believe this person
(42:42):
anymore.
And I can't believe I everbelieved that.
And now we can laugh about it.
And there's so much humor withthese people.
They're so nutty, like thethings that they say and do,
that it's just, yeah, we alwayshave lots of inspiration for
hysterical content.
Mary (42:59):
Well, I think this is so hopeful.
I mean, everything you'resaying, like even your
resilience, and there could besomebody that had walked the
path that you did and are justreally mired in bitterness.
And I can imagine there weretimes you felt bitter, but I
feel like you just rewrote yourwhole story by persevering and
(43:19):
you know, and your dad, you havea cool dad.
Lisa (43:24):
I know.
I mean, that was such a bondingopportunity.
My dad and uncle are now 85,and we see we get together for
lunch every single Thursday.
Mary (43:33):
That's great.
Lisa (43:34):
Yeah.
Mary (43:35):
That's great.
Lisa (43:35):
And thank God we're not doing legal stuff though.
Mary (43:38):
Yeah.
Now you can just talk aboutevery weekend.
Lisa (43:41):
Ugh, yeah.
But I couldn't have done itwithout my dad.
That's great.
Yeah.
Mary (43:45):
So, okay, so you have a book.
Tell us again the name of thebook that you already published.
Lisa (43:50):
Okay, I'll show you.
So it's called Been There, GotOut, Toxic Relationships, High
Conflict Divorce, and How toStay Sane Under Insane
Circumstances.
So that's a lot about like whatit's like to separate or
divorce or deal with a custodyissue with one of these very
difficult people, what toexpect, how to choose the right
lawyer, et cetera, et cetera.
So, like our brand ispractical, actionable advice.
(44:13):
So it's very like try this,this, this, this, this.
Um, the next book I am reallyexcited about.
It's called When Your Ex Turnsthe Kids Against You.
We have a course that I'mworking on that's like 20 plus
hours related to it, but itdeals with the topic, it's a
controversial label of parentalalienation.
It's also called poisoning thewell, um, sometimes abuse by
(44:36):
proxy or a type of coercivecontrol, or when a child rejects
a parent because the otherparent has caused a rift between
them, a rupture that isunnatural.
So unfortunately, this isprobably one of the most common
things that we see in ourcommunity because we only deal
with extreme cases and domesticviolence.
(44:56):
And it makes perfect sensebecause it's like, how can they
still hurt you post-separation?
Money, the court, and yourchildren.
And money and the court go handin hand and your kids last the
longest.
And so that's why they will tryto get in their heads and make
them turn against you.
And so we have many heartbrokenclients who are figuring out
(45:19):
ways to try to get the kidsback.
And we have had some incrediblesuccess stories.
Um, so I feel like putting abook out that's based on
hundreds of interviews and justour own experience with our
clients and having some successstories.
Also, a very close friend ofmine had her two girls turned
(45:41):
against her and no contact foreight years.
And in the process of writingthe book, they came back to her
being in their 20s and um theylet me interview them
individually.
Mary (45:52):
Wow.
Lisa (45:53):
And so there's a chapter in the book that's describes
what it's like from the child'sperspective, because many
parents who have been alienatedfrom their kids assume that
their kids hate them and don'twant anything to do with them,
but they don't understand thattheir kids are also victims of
domestic violence and they'rebasically like hostages.
And so if you just believe yourex's narrative that they want
(46:17):
nothing to do with you and yourkids are rejecting you, and you
just need to like move on withyour life and forget about them,
you're you're doing the worstthing possible is because you're
basically sealing the deal andyou're leaving them with the
terrorist who has convinced themthat one of their primary
attachment figures has abandonedthem, which is just not true.
So it's and you know, we thinkkids are gonna stay kids, but
(46:41):
these kids grow up into adultsand they've got the rest of
their lives.
And so we have to think aboutthe long-term effects of um
having a child turned against usand really, really fight for
for that relationship to repair.
Mary (46:55):
Yeah, for sure.
So when will your second bookbe out?
Lisa (46:59):
January.
Oh, exciting! Yes, yes, and thecourse, I'm like, it's gonna be
ready.
It's like two-thirds done.
And every time I'm working, I'mlike, oh, there's more, but
there's more, there's more.
I like the book itself.
I think I included 52 differentexperts, like advice and stuff
from them too.
So it's not like Chris and Idon't talk about our own stories
(47:21):
really.
We we take stuff from peoplethat again are also working in
this this field every singleday.
So lawyers and therapists andcoaches and people, trauma
experts that can helpefficiently and effectively deal
with this issue.
But it is not easy.
Mary (47:38):
No, and I think it's important to note that Chris had
his own situation, right?
So we, even though this show isreally a podcast for women, it
is not just men that are theones that are difficult in these
situations, that men also havetheir own difficulties and
challenges and struggles withwives and all of those things.
Lisa (48:00):
Yeah, we always say abuse is a human issue, not a gender
issue.
And actually, our legal abusesupport group, um, I like to say
we do a very unusual thing inthe domestic violence space in
that we combine our male andfemale clients together for that
group.
And it is incredible to see menand women supporting each
other.
It's especially interesting forwomen to hear the perspective
(48:25):
of male victims of domesticviolence because they see they
have a lot more in common thanthey ever expected.
And a lot of times we alwayswelcome like our clients to come
on if they want with theirpartners or family members.
And so we have a number ofcouples that will come to the
group together, and often the,you know, it'll be like a man
and a woman, and the woman willbe speaking for her partner, her
(48:46):
husband about like how he'sbeen so effective and affected
and how her own life is affectedby this female terrorist.
We also have same-sex couples,um, women in particular, who
will describe what theirex-wives are doing to their
child or to them.
And so it's really eye-openingfor people to come together.
(49:06):
Um, I remember in particular,what this is one of my favorite.
I mean, there's so many awesomemoments.
I love working on the weekendsbecause of this group.
But one of our male clients wasum describing, he has two young
children.
He was describing howuncomfortable he feels at their
school on the playground becausehe said, you know, it's mostly
(49:29):
women.
And and I feel like she, my excomes up to me on the playground
and she she makes me feel souncomfortable and I'm I'm really
nervous.
And but I I feel like I can'tsay anything because people are
thinking, oh, well, he's a guyand he's he's bad and who knows
what she said about me.
And so one of our femaleclients said, I know what to do.
She goes, try this.
(49:49):
She said, when when she comesup to you, hold your hands up
like this and say in a reallyloud voice, now is not the time.
Because when people see someonegoing like that, that cue is
like like I'm in danger.
Like, or and she said, or say,this is not the place.
But she said, I guarantee youpeople are not going to look at
you as like the abusive one.
They're gonna look at her andsay, What is she doing?
(50:11):
And um, and it was justwonderful to see like the the
response after that too.
It was really helpful advice.
Mary (50:19):
Yeah, I love that that you combine the groups to re
because really I think that alsokeeps people real.
It keeps them recognizing thatall men are not bad.
This, you know, this was asituation, this was a
personality, this was a person.
And I think that can be reallyvaluable.
Lisa (50:34):
Yeah, we just had it.
We had this happened sometimesbecause, like I said, we have a
lot of lawyers in the groupwhere sometimes a couple of them
will go off on their lawyersand then one of the clients will
be like, I'm really sorry, butI'm gonna learn.
They're like, oh no, no, no.
So it's like you can't alwaysstereotype and group everyone
together.
Mary (50:54):
No, it's across the board.
It can happen to anyone.
And I think that's alsosomething that is so powerful to
recognize that again, ithappens to everyone.
So, or it can happen to anyone.
So I think that's alsoimportant to recognize and
remember.
And you just do such importantwork.
And of course, I will link yourwebsite in the show notes.
(51:16):
And I'm guessing all of yourresources, that's the jumping
off point where people can findwhat they need.
So we'll thank you for beinghere, Lisa.
My pleasure.
Thanks for allowing me to talkabout this uh difficult topic.
And congratulations for gettingthrough everything.
It's pretty amazing.
Lisa (51:31):
Thank you.
I'm grateful every single day.
Yeah.
Mary (51:35):
And I want to thank everyone for listening.
If you enjoyed and learnedsomething from today's episode,
consider supporting the show atthe link in the show notes or
forward it to someone that youknow it could help.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
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