"No" is a Complete Sentence: Setting Boundaries Without Guilt

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Tired of saying yes when you desperately want to say no? In this candid conversation, intuitive truth-teller and host of The Nope Coach Podcast, Suzanne Culberg, shares her journey from chronic people-pleaser to boundary-setting expert, offering practical wisdom that will transform how you protect your energy.

"People pleasers are exploding doormats," Culberg explains, revealing how taking responsibility for everyone else's feelings and needs inevitably leads to resentment. The breakthrough comes through her elegant "up until now" technique—a simple phrase that acknowledges past patterns while creating space for change without triggering defensiveness.

Culberg's approach to boundaries is refreshingly practical. Like building muscle at the gym, she recommends starting with "lightweight" boundaries with people who don't yet know you before tackling close relationships. Through vulnerable examples from her own family life, she demonstrates how setting limits with children actually teaches them valuable life skills rather than depriving them of support.

The conversation ventures into territory rarely discussed: the invisible labor women perform, the guilt we feel when prioritizing ourselves, and the surprising reactions we receive when finally speaking our needs. Most powerfully, Culberg challenges the notion that boundaries indicate selfishness: "Do you have hobbies? Do you have interests? Or is your life solely everybody else's?"

Whether you struggle with saying no, feel responsible for others' emotions, or simply need permission to create space for yourself, this episode provides both the practical tools and emotional reassurance to begin reclaiming your energy without the spiral of guilt and second-guessing. Your needs matter—and honoring them allows you to show up more authentically for everyone in your life.

Ready to set boundaries that stick? Subscribe now and share this episode with someone who needs to hear this message of empowerment.

You can find Suzanne HERE.

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Episode Transcript

Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key

(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey, Violets, Welcome to theshow.
Okay, I am totally fangirlingtoday.
Let me give you some background.
If you listen to mesemi-regularly, you know I left

(00:48):
my beloved career to save mysanity from the antics of one
specific person, but that is astory for another day.
One of them is this podcast.
I started it partly because ofmy experience with the antics
person, because, honestly, thatexperience stole my voice Even

(01:09):
when I did speak up.
The people that could helpdidn't, but I think social
scripts kept me from speaking upin a way that might have
actually made people hear me.
Did you ever try to speak andmaybe inside you were shouting,
but your voice was no more thana whisper?
That was me, and after thatexperience, plus hearing the
stories of so many of my femaleclients who kept themselves

(01:31):
small, to the detriment of theirmental and physical health.
I never, ever wanted anotherwoman to feel like she couldn't
take up her space and use hervoice.
So here's a very cool bonus Ididn't expect from podcasting.
I have met some of the mostamazing, gifted and powerful
women.
Some of them are other hostsand many of them have been my
guests.
My guest today is someone Idiscovered through a podcast

(01:55):
workshop day.
She talked about how to pitchyourself to be a guest on
someone else's podcast in a verydown-to-earth and no bullshit
way, which I just found out isone of her favorite words, which
, and I'll be honest, in a worldwhere I swear, 99% of people do
one thing to sell another.
She was just herself, Real andpractical, which are two of my

(02:17):
favorite qualities in a human.
I ended up subscribing to heremail, then purchasing a
behind-the-scenes membership,then using the pitch strategies
she taught to invite her to myshow and ask to be a guest on
her show and, to my delight, shesaid yes to both.
Okay, so let me tell you why Iam fangirling right now.
This woman is 100% her amazingzany self from her t-shirts to

(02:40):
her podcasts, to her emails tothe work she does, from her
t-shirts to her podcasts, to heremails to the work she does.
Best of all, she sort ofreminds me of me, except with
way more experience, kids and avery cool accent.
I mean, I can do a bit ofBritish, but not Australian,
although you will get a lovelyhit of that from her today.
Suzanne Culberg is an intuitivetruth-teller, professional

(03:01):
boundary slayer and the voicebehind I Know Things, a suite of
real raw readings for women whoare tired of putting themselves
last.
A former coach, Suzanne nowhelps people pleasers detox from
external validation, reclaimtheir energy and say no without

(03:23):
spiraling into guilt, shame orsecond guessing, which is very
key to that whole concept.
She currently lives in Sydney,Australia.
That's going to be changingsoon, with her husband, two kids
and more books than shelf spacewhich another thing I can
relate to.
I have stacks everywhere.
Her love language is sarcasmand she firmly believes that no
is a complete sentence.
Welcome to no Shrinking Violet,Suzanne.

Suzanne (03:42):
Thank you, mary.
That's big shoes to step up to,but I'll have to go and change
that line now because of themove.
I actually now have shelf spaceand I'm on book ban August and
maybe even September in terms ofbuying new stuff, but it's
amazing how much I've managed todeclutter, because it's like,
do I want to pack this and thenunpack it?
Nope, it's gone.

Mary (04:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, moving does wonders forsimplifying, for sure.
A hundred percent, yeah, okay,so I have 3,000 questions, but I
feel like this interview is sowell-timed because so your
podcast is the Nope Coach, right, but you are sort of now
stepping back from that, thecoaching part right, I'm keeping

(04:24):
the moniker because I like it.

Suzanne (04:25):
It's funny how you just get attached to it and if you
go to my website, at least nowit changes.
The very first question is areyou a coach?
Nope, because people are likewhy are you keeping it?
I'm like because it's still me.
I still 100% say no, I stillspeak my mind.
I just don't do the coachingpart and just the nope sounds
weird, like the nothing from theNarnia movies.
No, not Narnia, what was it?

(04:46):
Never Ending Story.

Mary (04:47):
Yeah, no, I love it, I think it's perfect.
But the one thing that I reallythink is very cool and I
honestly I'm not a stalker, butI do know some things because of
your emails you sort of madenot a U-turn, but you went in a
different direction with things.

(05:07):
Right, you're focusing on muchmore, on, I think, what lights
you up, and you've simplifiedwhat you're doing to help people
, right.

Suzanne (05:13):
Significantly so I had so much filler in my business
and I think many of us do,because we spend a lot of time,
energy and money getting thecertifications or creating the
things so we kind of like pouredthem.
It's actually I hadn't made theconnection between getting rid
of stuff in my business and alsogetting rid of stuff in my
actual life.
It's like, have I used this inthe last 10 years?

(05:35):
No, but you know why are youholding onto it?
And the same within business.
So I had, and I still have,like they're not gone from the
plane of existence, they're justgone from my website or
wherever.
So many courses and programsand things and I think a lot of
business owners we make thingsand it's like but is this the
most potent example of my work?

(05:55):
Or if somebody bought thistoday and had questions, would I
be like I'm down or like, oh,not that again it was kind of
like a big declutter from thatpoint of view as well.

Mary (06:06):
Yeah, and what you do fascinates me and I'm always
like, do I want to venture intothis?
Can you explain a little bitwhat?
How do you work with people?
Because it's so intriguing tome.

Suzanne (06:18):
It's funny you have that question.
A lot of people ask mesomething along that lines.
They're like I'm kind ofinterested, I'm kind of not, and
because I am a recovered, Idon't like recovering because it
still ties my identity to it.
Because I'm a recovered peoplepleaser and I tend to attract a
lot of people in the peoplepleasing world, I know people,
if they buy one or they sign upfor something, feel awkward

(06:40):
about either not buying again orquitting.
And I'm like'm like in my world.
You can honestly come and go asyou please and it's most
welcome because I'm tired ofpeople being suck.
It in's not quite the rightword, but you know I'm very
direct.
As in.
You know you buy.
I don't know how many people onthe internet.
Their free stuff's so cool andyou buy something.
You're like, oh man, their freestuff was better and now I
can't get out because I'mtrapped in this forever.

(07:02):
Anyway, what I do, I don't thinkI ever would have got here
directly.
So I don't know how big adeeper, darker stalk you've done
.
But originally I went tomedical school, so I have a very
Western scientific backgroundtraining and my husband he's not
a doctor but he's an engineer,so he's still in that world.
And when I started to do whatactually is I do now, he's like

(07:26):
people would pay you for that.
It's so weird.
I was very much the same.
So I think I loved how you saidyou turn 180, whatever in my
life.
It's like I don't think I couldhave got from there to here in
one step.
It's just too bizarre.
And if you wound me back 20years and said you're actually
not going to be a doctor, you'regoing to be like an intuitive
healer, I would have been likewhat are you on?

(07:47):
I think you need some sort ofassessment.
So anyway, what I do is I'mvery highly intuitive.
My husband, although he doesn'tbelieve in any of that sort of
stuff, has nicknamed meCassandra because, like the
oracle of time, where she justspoke the truth and nobody
believed her and then, to theirperil, I just know things.

(08:08):
I always have just reallybizarre things.
I'll come out with them, and itwas not encouraged in my family
growing up and it certainlywasn't encouraged in the field
that I first went into.
But when I had my originalbusiness, I was a coach and my
website person, because I'm notvery techie.

(08:29):
Like I, have very limited timeto work in my business.
I have young kids, it's a kindof also another full-time job,
so I've always outsourced allthe tech side of my business.
She was like you got to dosomething with your intuition.
And I was like, anyway, longstory short, on a dare, because
she dared me, because you knowI'll do most things.
Once she's like, why don't youput it together as an offering?

(08:49):
And I was like, but nobody willeven understand what it is.
So I did, but only to thepeople who are currently working
with me.
So everyone who was on my list,who I have a client tag, I send
it through.
I had three spots and I thoughtthat will keep her quiet.
I would have fulfilled my dareand you know, anyway all three
sold out like within like 10minutes and I'd never had a sold
out offer until then.
So I was like, oh my goodness,and anyway it's become a thing.

(09:11):
So I can do it individually orI can do it for a group, and so
for the group one.
Each Monday morning at leastAustralian time, some of you
guys it's Sunday evening I tunein.
Evening I tune in, I use Oraclecards or poems or whatever I
have handy and I get like amessage for the group Now, much
like a horoscope, because peopleunderstand that it's not all

(09:33):
going to be relevant to you whenit's a group thing and it's
just kind of unfiltered, oftensweary.
Sometimes I sing I can't carrya tune in a bucket, so like,
prepare your ears accordingly,but whatever comes through comes
through.
It goes for about 20 minutesand it is so much fun because
it's not like where am I pickingthem up and where am I dropping

(09:54):
them off and where is theclient journey, and it doesn't
need to make sense.
And sometimes I send them andI'm like that was totally off
the wall.
I'm waiting for people to go,what was that?
And they're like, oh my God, itwas the best.
Because if I, especially if I'mreading something, I haven't
pre-read it, I've just grabbedsomething.
And once there was a storyabout is it Bluebeard, the fairy

(10:16):
tale, who basically likemurdered all his previous wives,
I didn't know the story and I'mreading it and it's getting
darker and darker and darker andI'm like, oh God, I can't
believe I can send this.
But my thing to myself is, sortit say it, I just record it and
I send it and whatever the mostreplied to, the most responded
to won, and so it's like, Ithink, in life we become so
filtered, and so, you know,choosing our words selectively,
that we lose the meaning, and Ithink that's what people

(10:37):
appreciate about this, becauseit's just yeah, whatever,
anything goes.

Mary (10:43):
Yeah, I love the idea.
I think it's it's so funnybecause social media we're so
out there and then it's thatsort of in juxtaposition of like
being very private and thisseems to be.
It's so authentic, like it'skind of right in the middle, I
think, when you for me, it'salmost like something clicks

(11:06):
into place.
Like sometimes, when I write anemail for my email list, I'm
like this is very weird, likecause I tend to use plants and
nature and I'm like this is thisanalogy?
Like I get this as a gardener,but will other people and it's
exactly what you're saying Likethose things.
When it really is aligned withwhat you believe, then your
people come to you, which is socool.

Suzanne (11:28):
And like the group ones are a bit different because
there's, you know, 10, maybe 20.
I think the most I've had is 79people.
So the bigger the group is, themore I fear, like is this going
to be relevant to everyone?
But the individual ones?
I remember one time and becauseI do these calls, like I don't
ask people any details thepersonal one if they've got a
question, but an open-endedquestion, not like am I going to

(11:50):
find the man or win the lottery?
No, no, no.
But so this lady, she didn'thave a question, she said
whatever comes through, I hadn'tmet her before, she hadn't been
a client, didn't recognize hername.
Anyway, I'm doing the readingand what's really coming through
is like, but this woman's goingto do something with a singing
bowl.
And my logical self is likewhat if she doesn't know what a
singing bowl is?
But my rule to myself is sortit, say it.

(12:12):
If it comes up, I just say it.
And anyway, I say it, I send itoff.
I'm like she's going to ask fora refund, like and I'm very
clear on it no refunds.
But it doesn't mean people don'task.
But anyway, long story short,she writes back and she's like
oh my gosh, not only do I have asinging bowl, like, she has a
suite of things that she'srecorded that she's never
released publicly because of allher hangups and everything.

(12:34):
And she's like would you bewilling to listen to one of them
?
And I was like of course shehas the voice of an angel.
I was like woman, what are youdoing?
So you know, sometimes someoneelse's invitation reflection is
the thing that you need theprompt.
And I was like you can singlike that and you're not
publishing this.
And I can't sing worth a damn,and I think, because it's all in

(12:56):
our heads.
So all I have to say like andthere's another time the person
I knew well.
So sometimes it's harder when Iknow them well, because is it
what I'm getting or is it what Ialready know about them?
And I had this whole thingabout KFC and I know this
woman's a vegan and I'm like canvegans get anything at KFC Like
Kentucky fried chicken?
For anyone who doesn't know, Idon't even think they have a
salad without chicken in it.

(13:16):
Anyway, I'm talking about KFCand I'm like she's going to be
like Suzanne, what are you on?
And she's like I'm wanting torebrand my business and I want
to use the KFC red, but I wasn'tsure, so this was the.
So it's kind of like when youget an inkling about someone and
like I'm not saying goingaround and telling everyone
what's in your head, causethat's you know.
But even in in like day-to-daylife, I will say to people or

(13:39):
give them invitation, like I'vegot something, do you want it?
Not just spurting what comesthrough, because it's not always
welcome your insights, yourthoughts, like I have a really
good friend who's a dreaminterpreter and boundaries is
the other thing I do.
And you know it's like you needto ask me before you dump all
your stuff, because I believewe're all different, but I
believe dreams are more aboutthe dream than the person

(14:00):
they're about.
So if someone's had a big dreamabout me, I don't want to know.
It's kind of like inviting andsaying, would you like?
Rather than you know meaningwell, but dumping your stuff
onto someone else, and that'swhy I like with the readings

(14:27):
no-transcript.

Mary (14:33):
Well, what it makes me think of is I've had people say
to me, because they know thatthe work I've done as a
therapist, they'll say are youanalyzing me right now?
And somebody actually got me ashirt that said I'm
psychoanalyzing you right now.
I'm like I can't wear that,like I think people they worry
about what they say to me and Idon't.
That's not the frequency I'm onwhen I'm interacting with

(14:53):
people personally.
So it's interesting that youknow with that idea, for you is
like if you're sensing something, it's sort of like, and I feel
like I can't do that, becauseit's probably saying you know,
here's what your diagnosis wouldbe if I were going to diagnose
you.

Suzanne (15:09):
It doesn't always happen, but sometimes it just
comes in when I'm with somebody,not always, but it's kind of
like.
As I said, I went to medicalschool.
I did this rotation at a ruralpractice, so like middle of
nowhere, the doctor's like it,and you stayed at the doctor's
place and one time we're in thesupermarket I should say it's a
kind of corner store becausewe're in a rural place the
number of people who came up tohim in the checkout or the

(15:30):
aisles, like pulling up theirshirt, going can you check out
my rash?
That dude did not haveboundaries.
But all this to say for thatwhen you're not in professional
mode, a no, but also I don'thave all my gear, I'm not on,
like I'm not thinking about isthis this or is this that?
And if you go up to a doctor ina supermarket, hang, hold out
your rash and they say somethingto worry about, so you never

(15:52):
bother getting it checked and itgets worse or whatever.
Because old Joe blogs in aislefour said it was fine and it's
like that's.
You know, like sometimes peopledo it because they don't want to
pay and I get that, or they'renot able to, and I'm not
downplaying that, but sometimesit's like you know, this is this
person's profession.
Don't make light of them orcheapen it by expecting them to
like.
You know, like my sisters lovethem dearly but sometimes go

(16:12):
ring me and go can you do yourheebie-jeebie stuff I've got
like no, no, it's not on demand.
I'm not a faucet and this iswhat I do.
But you know, you know, if Ihave an inkling I will offer it.
But I'm not randomly goingaround analyzing people or
looking at rushes, like just no.

Mary (16:31):
Yeah Well, and so you just gave me the perfect segue to
take the off ramp to boundaries.
So the one thing that I thinkwhere boundaries come from and
you know I work predominantlywith women, and I see this
mostly with women is we takeresponsibility for all kinds of
shit that it's not ours to takeresponsibility for, and I feel

(16:54):
like that's it starts that way,that we want to smooth the path.
So, whether it's, you know,doing something for our kids to
make life easier which then ofcourse, and we can also weave in
enabling because I don't oftenhear people outside of the
therapy world use that, but Iknow you use that word, so can
we talk a little about thatFirst of all, that idea of

(17:15):
taking responsibility for thingsthat aren't yours.

Suzanne (17:20):
I can think of so many examples, like, if you help your
kid with their homework, youcould be enabling them Not
always, I'm not saying be anabsolute awful person, but like,
say, for example, there was onetime my daughter comes to me at
10 pm saying like A she shouldhave been in bed.
I was getting ready for bed, butanyway, long story short, she's

(17:42):
like crying because she needsto build a diorama for school
and I'm like no worries, when'sit due?
And she's like tomorrow.
And if I had then put off goingto bed, ferreted through our
craft cupboard and helped herbuild a diorama, or told her to
go to bed and build it for herbecause, let's face it, some

(18:03):
parents do that I'm not helpingmy kid learn anything.
Because really, what is thetask?
Do we need another crappydiorama in the world?
That sounds awful, but you knowwhat I mean.
No, it's about them planning,getting organized, sourcing
stuff, learning, learning theseskills, not the diorama itself.
So by me doing that, I'm nothelping her at all, I'm enabling

(18:24):
her that mum will get her outof the shit.
Yeah, there we go.
Oh, that's so good At the 11thhour and I would rather her
learn that lesson now, when itdoesn't really matter, because
at the end of the day, what shegets on this project is not
going to be on her full-timerecord.
Then, when she's going for ajob interview and she doesn't

(18:44):
have a clean shirt or she's gota flat tire and she doesn't know
what to do.
So I said to her no, I won'thelp you, I guess you're going
to fail that one.
And then she's crying, callingme all the names under the sun,
and I'm not saying in thatmoment I did feel awful, I could
have done it, but I'm nothelping her.
The same as there was one timeI had something in the city
We've only got one vehicle so Iwas walking with my son to

(19:06):
school.
He was riding his scooter, andthen I was catching a train into
the city and we get to thefront of the school gate and I
go to hug him goodbye.
I said, dude, where's yourbackpack?
And he'd left it at home andhe's like, can you walk home and
grab it, which I could have?
I would have missed my thingand I was only going to the
theater.
Like I love the theater, I'm atheater buff, so in the back of

(19:26):
my mind I was like, well youknow, but it's like, and don't
worry anyone listening, I didn'tmake my kids starve, thank
goodness for the app.
I went onto the app.
I was like, but you're going toneed to ask to borrow pencil
ruler, this sort of stuff.
Like you're going to have tolean on your peers, and I think
that teaches him A he's neverforgotten his bag again.
And B to be resourceful, ratherthan me giving up something

(19:48):
that I was really lookingforward to, even though it
wasn't urgent, because he'dforgotten something.
And I and I think you know,especially as women like I've
got another example that I'veshared a few times.
So this would have been lastyear.
Now we currently live in Sydney, we have what we call Sprummer.
As it comes into spring, whichwill be soon, it doesn't really
happen in spring, it goesstraight to summer and it's hot

(20:09):
and, as I said, we've got theone car.
So my husband was working inthe city, I had the car and I
thought, great, go home, recordstuff for my work podcast, get
the kids from school, right,right, right.
So I ended up with one kid homebecause he was unwell.

(20:31):
Not like needs me to hold hishand unwell.
But you know, and I'm recording, podcasting, batching, and my
son comes in and my kids knownot to come in.
This is another boundary,unless it's a true emergency.
So I was like what is wrong,you know?
And he's like daddy's trying tocall you.
I'm like what?
So I turn my phone over and Isee like 15 missed calls or

(20:51):
something.
I'm like oh my gosh, there'sbeen an accident, my husband's
injured or whatever.
And I ring him and he answershe's like where are you?
And I'm like at home in frontof the computer.
He's like I'm waiting.
Anyway, long story short, Idrive to the train station.
It's Sprummer, so it's like 35degrees Celsius.
He wears full PPE high beers,he's sweating like an absolute.

(21:12):
You know this is at like 2.30and he starts losing it at me
because you know I wasn'tchecking my phone and all this
sort of stuff and I was likehold up, dude.
You said you'd be home afterfive.
It is half past two.
He's like I rang you.
I'm like yeah, but did you see?
Like did I answer any of them?
Did I?

(21:33):
Was it as read?
And he's like no, and I'm likeyou're a full-grown adult.
You could have called an Uber.
There's all these other waysyou could have got yourself home
.
I am not holding, like my partmeant to be.
Oh, I'm a bad wife, no, no, no,I'm not, I'm doing my own thing
.

Mary (22:05):
So the examples with your kids so resonate with me,
because I worked with collegekids for a very long time and,
as I so, I started probably 35years ago working with high
school and things have changed alot in, you know, three and a
half decades.
So kids come to college theydidn't even fill out their own
application, they have no ideaabout meal plans, and so the

(22:28):
first time a paper is due andthey didn't, they run out of ink
or they run out of paper.
Everything is this huge crisisand it's because they were
enabled.
Anytime they would hit a toughspot, they would get bailed out.
You know doing what you'retalking about, like I forgot my

(22:49):
paper or I didn't print my paper, or I know parents who have
written papers for their kidsand once they get a job, oh, I
also know parents who fill outjob applications for their kids.
So I often wonder how far canwe kick that can down the road,
because they're going to getinto a job situation and have no

(23:10):
idea how to manage themselves.

Suzanne (23:14):
A hundred percent and we think we're helping.
And some people have said to meyou know quite, I can't think
of a word, but like I love mychildren, I'm like, yeah, I love
my children too and I want themto be able to handle it on the
if and when I'm not there,whether it be some tragedy thing
I'm hoping not or whether it bejust like.
You know they need to be savvy.
They need to be able to knowhow to catch public transport

(23:37):
and what to do if their cardruns out of money.
Or you know how to like feedthemselves, like both of my kids
cook.
They are very young, basic,age-appropriate things, not like
Sauvignon Blanc or, you know,like lots of booze.
But do you know what I mean?
Like nothing over the top.

Mary (23:52):
They don't make wine.

Suzanne (23:54):
They don't make wine, but it's funny, like, so we're
moving.
As I said, the house we'regoing to for the first time ever
at least for us it has twoen-suites.
So my daughter's like actuallythere was a fight on, my
daughter won and she's like I'mgetting the room with a second
en-suite.
I was like I was actuallyplanning for that to be my
office, but anyway, long storyshort, I was like well, you're
going to have to learn how toclean a toilet, like she knows a

(24:15):
shower and a sink.
I said because if you don'tkeep that en suite clean, I'm
kicking you out.
I didn't think through my wordshere, people.
She starts crying.
I'm confused.
She's like where am I going tolive?
It's like not out of the house,darling out of that room.
Then she's like oh, becauseit's like if you don't maintain

(24:35):
it, I'm not going to come cleanyour bathroom for you.
If you have your own, you're incharge of it wholly and solely.

Mary (24:42):
Yeah, we really think that , that we don't think it through
, I think, and it's feeling bad,Like you talked about, you know
with your husband, not, youknow, watching the phone, and I
think when we get in thosesituations then we do feel
guilty.
So how did you ever I mean, I'mgoing to guess at some point,

(25:03):
because we have been socializedas women you went through some
of that guilt right when youmade a boundary.
How did you get past?

Suzanne (25:10):
like putting that aside , the first few times you set a
boundary.
I really liken boundary settingand growth to working out your
physical body.
If you know that you're not inthe best shape or you're in no
shape, no shame or shade.
But you decide, hmm, I'm goingto go to the gym and you walk in
and you see, like these row ofdumbbells from we say kilos here

(25:31):
, but you guys would say pounds,like from two pounds to like a
hundred pounds, and you see somelike beefcake or really fit
person bicep curling like 50pounds.
You know you're unlikely to beable to even lift that off the
rack, let alone do it, so youwouldn't try.
You'd start at the little endand work your way up to it.
Boundaries are much the same.
So if you've never said no toyour kids, I think where many of

(25:53):
us go wrong is we listen to apodcast like this or read a book
and we try and do this complete180 and we start to like any
type of boundary setting.
I actually recommend startingwith people who don't yet know
you like starting not with yournearest and dearest, because
they have known you for years ordecades and they're 100% used
to.
So it's actually hardest to setthe boundaries with those

(26:15):
closest and they're going toneed the most reinforcing
because they're used to theother version of you.
And so, anyway, much like atthe gym, you're going to have to
get your reps up, you're goingto have to start light and
you're going to have to remindpeople.
So, like my husband and I havebeen together for 20 odd years
now, and when I first startedboundaries in like this this

(26:35):
recent situation with the trainand the Sprummer when I first
started boundaries in like this,this recent situation with the
train and the Sprummer, itwouldn't have been my first one.
Like it's, we've been togethera long time but you know, if
you've never set a boundary withsomeone, if you've been the
person who's watching the phoneand you know, oh my gosh, you
dropped a crumb on the floor,I'm going to go and wipe it up
or whatever.
Not like, pick up your owncutlery.
Um, cause it's funny, myparents-in-law, my, my

(26:56):
mother-in-law very much catersand panders to my father-in-law,
so much so I'm surprised shedoesn't cut his meat for him.
I'm not being sarcastic.
She'll carry his plate to thesink.
She'll put the napkin on hislap.
I just look at it in horror.
And when they visit, like myhusband not only does everything
himself, but he also cooks.
She's like how did you managethat?
And I was thinking, we are bothadults, we both work.

(27:18):
It's not like you know.
And yeah, when he comes tovisit, it's like put your own
plate in the sink, I'm notcarrying it for you, it's just
so all I have to say it's kindof like where are you?
I guess the starting point wouldbe to take inventory of where
are you now, without shame,shade or judgment.
Like this is just how it'sbecome.
I do my kids' homework.
I, you know, I run around aftereveryone.

(27:40):
Like this has becomeunsustainable.
Pick where you want to begin.
Have a really honestconversation with the people.
Like for me in the beginning,when I tried to set boundaries,
my husband would be playing theXbox and I'd say something my
husband would agree for we couldmove to the Eiffel Tower.
If he's playing the Xbox, he'snot paying any attention to me.

(28:01):
So it's kind of like make sureyou have the person's full
attention and then start with upuntil now.
Up until now I've done yourhomework for you or I've put
your plate in the sink or I'vewhatever.
From here on forward, this iswhat I would like so make it
kind of like a question and thensay are you on board with that?
And then be open to negotiate,but not backpedal and give up

(28:23):
entirely, because I thinksometimes it's like
acknowledging, because then,when it happens the next time,
instead of you playing inyourself, I didn't ask them
right, or I'm a terrible person,or I should just do it anyway
because it's easier.
Just hey, remember last weekwhen we had this conversation.
Like this is an example andjust reminding people because
people who love you, most ofthem will be like oh, thank
goodness, like people, pleasecouldn't make a decision.

(28:47):
Me, when my husband was likewhere would you want to go out
for dinner?
I don't know, wherever you want, honey, and he'd be like here,
I don't want to go there.
Here, I don't want to go there.
Where do you want to go?
I don't know.
So, like now, it's like wheredo you want to go for dinner?
Oh, I feel like Italian.
He loves that.
Decisiveness is attractive asopposed to like no, it's fine,
when you know it's not fine,mm-hmm.

Mary (29:06):
Yeah, and I think the thing that people don't often
think about it is the hardest tochange a boundary with people
that are close to you, partlybecause we live in a system so I
think about family systems andeverybody sort of has their role
.
We're used to people doingsomething the way they do it,
and when they change suddenly wedo not want that Like.

(29:27):
The system will do everypossible thing to keep that
person functioning like theywere.
So it's really starting.
You're right.
It's kind of like going intothe gym and saying I'm going to
do bicep curls with a 70-poundweight because you can't Like
you.
Literally you're going to tryit once and you're going to
really be hurting.
So I think, thinking about it,the system is stacked against

(29:50):
you, because that's justnaturally.
We want people to bepredictable.

Suzanne (29:54):
Yeah, it's like homeostasis.
It's a system and it runs likeit runs and this is your role in
it and sometimes, like youmight have an idea in your head,
like I've given this examplebefore, but this is a great one.
So my daughter has anxiety andshe struggles a lot socially and
sometimes she wants to unpack.
That and I'm here for it.
But the time she likes tounpack it is like nine, 10

(30:15):
o'clock at night when I'mwinding down and also, once I've
helped her decompress, I needtime to decompress.
I think sometimes people pleaseus, we forget all about what we
need.
So if she's decompressing withme at 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock
at night, then I need anotherhour.
I'm not getting to bed aftermidnight and then I'm an early
ride.
Anyway, it doesn't work.
So I remember saying to her upuntil now I've been available

(30:39):
whenever you need it and I loveyou and I want to be here for
you.
But this isn't working for me.
Like you know, you have needstoo and even smaller children
can understand that.
Like, not maybe toddlers, butmy kids are, you know, high
school age at least one of themis.
So I was like and this is whatI proposed was after school,
because that would work best forme.
Anyway, what was happening isshe wasn't coming to me after

(31:00):
school and then I'd hear her inher room crying at like 10
o'clock and then I feel like theworst mom ever and all this
sort of stuff.
So this boundary needed to bemassaged, and what was happening
?
And she didn't have words forit in the beginning, but she was
like after school, she's notready, it's still too soon, it's
still too fresh, she needs timeto unwind, to unpack that
before she can unpack it with me.
So then what we did was wemoved it till after dinner, so

(31:23):
like we ate dinner at around5.30.
So you know, and long storyshort, over time this boundary
for both of us got massaged andmanaged until any time before
7pm.
After 7, I'm not available.
And then for the first month orso, I had to say to her hey,
it's coming up to 7pm, anythingyou want to share, because she

(31:43):
might forget or stuff happens.
Now we don't need that.
But I think, as you build theboundary, as you build the thing
, that bridging thing, not thatyou're doing it for them, but
maybe a gentle reminder.
And now, as I said, we're aboutto move, so it's probably going
to bring up a lot of stuff forher, so I'll probably reinstate
that.
Hey, anything you want to chatabout, um, that I haven't needed
for some number of months now.
But I think sometimes we get inour head like this is what

(32:06):
works for us, like, as I said,for me, ideally immediately
after school I'm fresh, I've,you know, but for her that
doesn't work.
So I think sometimes setting aboundary isn't I'm putting this
barricade in and saying you mustdo this.
It's like this is what workedfor me.
And then they go actually forme 3 pm, for her 10 pm, 7 pm is
kind of like a happy medium.

(32:26):
It's not perfect for either ofus, but we can both make it work
.
And I think that's the thingabout a boundary and we have
boundaries.
Like if you go someone's house,chances are you'll ask shoes on
or off.
Some people are 100% like noshoes in my house and some
people are like no, no, barefoot, ew.
So physical boundaries tend tomake more sense.
Or if you're a smoker nojudgment, I don't smoke.

(32:47):
But in your house you mightsmoke inside, but if you go to
someone else's house who's anon-smoker, you would either go
outside or smoke before you cameor whatever.
Physical boundaries we tend tounderstand a lot easier, but
emotional boundaries are thingstoo Like.
I have emotional boundaries withmy friends that they can't ring
and trauma dump their shit onme.
It's like A you've got to textfirst and B you've got to ask me

(33:08):
do you have spoons?
Like as in, have you gotcapacity for this today?
Because I love them and peopleare like, oh, it means you don't
love your friends.
It's like no, no, if I have myown stuff going on, I can't hold
space or listen to their stuffand they probably think, oh,
Suzanne's dismissing me.
It's like no, suzanne's barelykeeping her head above water,
let alone adding on your thing.
So it's a kindness to say, hey,you got five minutes or I have

(33:30):
this going on and sometimes itbackfires.
I had a friend once send me atext going you got spoons.
I was like not today.
I said circle back next week.
She said fine, she circles back.
She just broke up with herfiance.
He literally just walked out.
I was like why didn't you sayanything?
She said you said you had nospoons.

Mary (33:44):
I was like, oh, so now it's kind of like having a code
word for like, because it's afork situation.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, I can tell you right now,from working with kids for such

(34:05):
a long time, that there areprobably parents listening to
you saying how can you not bethere to listen to your kid when
she needs it?
And I'm going to let me reframethat because I think when,
first of all, there's two partsto this.
As a therapist, it always makesme nervous when I have someone
that's in a time of their lifethat they're really struggling
and there's one person they relyon to help them work through

(34:26):
things.
And I have to always say tothem what are you going to do
when that person's not available?
And they say, well, they'realways there.
I'm like you, what if you know?
And because to me that is anexternal locus of control,
that's saying I can't regulatemyself unless I can unload this

(34:47):
and have someone help me processit.
And when you develop an internallocus of control, which you're
actually doing beautifully withyour daughter, because you're
teaching her and this is theother part you're teaching her
that you trust her to be able tolearn to do it herself, and
you're doing it in a way thatyou didn't say I don't want to
be bothered, which I've seen alot of parents not parent, you

(35:11):
know.
Yeah, there's things that arehard about parenting that you
have to do when you don't wantto, but you're really making it
a dialogue which is veryempowering.
And I think sometimes wediscount that because we think,
well, they're going to think Idon't care and I can tell you.
When you trust your kid to beable, you're saying to her I'm

(35:34):
going to be here for you, butwe're going to have to figure
out how you can sometimesregulate this for yourself, and
that is tremendously empoweringfor a young person.
So I really love that, becauseI know there are parents that
are probably like how can she?
And it's really like you got totrust your kid, but you need to
teach them how to do that forthemselves.

Suzanne (35:53):
Well, it's an excellent point.
I know people people.
I have this conversation withpeople all the time and I'm like
you know you can, you do you,you're entitled to your opinion,
that's all good.
You wanted to say that, um, butlike my mom's passed now.
So if my mom and I've seenadult people still fully reliant
on their parent, if my mom wasmy sole focus and, as you said,

(36:16):
locus of control, what happenswhen she passed Like?
And also my daughter has othertools.
She has a journal which youknow she can write in.
She has a therapist which shecan see, but even a therapist
she sees her like once every twoweeks.
What happens the other 13 daysof the week?
And I think with anything inlife there are times you just

(36:38):
got to figure it out and notlike pull yourself up by your
bootstraps or don't bother me,kind of figure it out.
But you know, and I think youknow with anything, if there was
an emergency I wouldn't saysorry kids, it's outside my zone
, just bind it up, you'll befine.
Like you know, we would go tothe emergency room.
But I think we've sometimesoverestimated what really is

(37:01):
urgent, like when I firststarted setting boundaries in my
kids and working cause I workfrom home it's got advantages
and disadvantages.
I remember saying to them.
They were a lot younger don'tinterrupt me unless it's
important.
And I'm like and they're like,yeah, mommy, and I'm sitting
down, I'm writing this blog, andI'm like oh, it's like not even
five minutes in.
My daughter comes running inand I'm like is it important?
She's like yeah, and she'snodding.

(37:22):
I'm like what happened?
She's like I could fit 27blueberries in my mouth.
I'm like, yeah, okay, we need avery different definition of
what it like we need to seekmedical attention.
That's why, when my son came in, that time I was like with my
husband.
I was like what's wrong?
I turn my phone over and I seeall these calls.

(37:42):
It's because it's like to methat wasn't important.
I can understand him beingfrustrated.
I can understand him beingannoyed, but you're a grown man
with a mobile phone.
You can find another way home.
So it's just kind of like whenwe become responsible for
everybody else and I used to dothis, I'd be the person I
organized my sister's birthday.
From interstate, I helped withthe wedding, like I was the

(38:03):
go-to person.
But where's your own life?
And for anyone who's feeling,oh, she's such a bitch, it's
like but what do you do for you?
Do you have hobbies?
Do you have interests?
Do you have, or is your lifesolely everybody else's?
Because there'll come a pointwhere they grow up or they move
out or whatever and you're kindof really alone and then don't

(38:26):
have anything because youhaven't made time.
Like it's funny.
When I grew up, my late mum, shewas a mum, like that's what she
was like, not in the judgmentthing, but I remember watching
her when I was little and I waslike I don't want to be a mum
when I grow up because all mumsdo is mother.
Like that was the example I had.
She had no friends, no hobbies,she worked and she looked after
us and that was it.
And if that had made herfulfilled, that's a whole

(38:49):
different thing.
Some people they love that, butshe was always cranky and, and
you put it, you know all I dofor you and it was like it
wasn't a nice environment to bein.
So it's like I have hobbies andstuff and it's funny.
Sometimes my kids will be likemommy needs to go for a walk or
mommy needs to read a book,cause it's like they could tell

(39:09):
I'm highly strung and I I needthat alone time and after that,
so that you know sometimesthey'll be like can I get the
bath bomb or can I grab yourbook?
Like they're like wanting me totake that time to recharge
because they know that I'mthrough rather than like all mom
does is stuff for us.

Mary (39:29):
Well, so I'm.
I'm putting a book together.
It's supposed to be publishedearly next year, but it's about
living like a plant.
So when you talk about that, itmakes me think about.
We all have things that wenaturally need.
So I talk about needing thattime as shade, like sometimes
when we have sun it's like toomuch and sometimes we need that.

(39:50):
And so if that doesn't matchwith, like the societal in
quotes way you're supposed toparent, it can create a lot of
guilt.
But you're also, I think, whenyou can say, here's what I need,
but do it in a way you're stillengaged.
That is also a great lesson ifcertain people they're

(40:17):
caretakers because they don'tknow what else to do, and then
when they don't have thatanymore, or they're doing it so
they don't have to hear what'shappening in their own life 100%
.

Suzanne (40:24):
I think that's common.
But also too, no matter whatyou do, people are going to
judge you, so you might as welldo what lights you up.
It's funny, like at least oncea year I take a mumcation.
I don't go anywhere fancy, Iusually go somewhere quite close
, a couple of nights in a hotel,take my books, take my snacks.
It's the best.
And when people find out aboutit, they're like who's looking
after your kids?
I'm like my husband and theystart like interrogating me and

(40:47):
everything.
I'm like he goes away all thetime and no one says who's
helping you out?
Hello, he's a fully functional,highly capable man.
And then the other thing too isthey're like well, do you ring
them?
I'm like, no, this is mystaycation.
Like they know that they cancall me in emergency Once a day.
I'll do a quick check-in.
But like, sometimes I go away orI invite a friend and they're

(41:09):
like this is the best idea.
And they spend the whole timeon their phone to their kids and
I have to say to them can youplease take it to the other room
or outside?
Like the whole idea of this forme is to get away.
I don't want to be callingevery five minutes and checking
do you know where this is or doyou know where that is?
They'll figure it out and ifnot, it's two days, you know,
unless it was their likelife-saving medicine.
I'm not being gl, but you seepeople like oh, my baby's at

(41:33):
four and they've dropped theirkids here and they're texting me
every five minutes.
Are they getting along withlittle?
I stay out of my kids' business.

Mary (41:45):
They're fine, they'll work it out.
Yeah, well, that going away.
I've done that for a weekend inthe spring and fall for years.
And so I'm on my secondmarriage.
My first marriage my husband waswe were like that Venn diagram
where the overlap was very slim,so we and sometimes that was
good, so he would go.
He was a hiker, so he hiked thePacific Crest Trail I mean,
these are the Appalachian Trail.
This is like a five monthsituation.

(42:08):
So when he would be gettingready and we were married for 10
years so he probably did two orthree through hikes during that
time.
But when he would go away wewould typically I'd drive him,
like I drove him to Montana andit was great.
And then I drove back home andpeople are like, what are you
going to do for five months?
I said you have no idea howhappy I am right now.

(42:28):
So now I'm married to somebodyvery different.
He likes a lot of together time.
So because I know myself, Isaid I'm going to need some
space for solitude and we don'thave a huge house.
So he followed through and wehave a little retreat out in our
woods with heating and airconditioning and I just go out

(42:51):
there.
That's where I work.
So I think, and even now, whenI go away for weekends without
him, he's very, he's very coolwith that.
But I know there have beenpeople along the way that are
like you're not going together,it's like, well, no, because
when I come back I'm ready toengage Like I'm in my best self
and you're at your best selfwhen you can do that, and then

(43:13):
parent right, cause you, justyou need that.

Suzanne (43:21):
Yeah, and I think it's knowing your nature.
Like my husband, my daughterand I are all very introverted
by nature.
We like to be quiet.
Like my husband can play theXbox, I can sit with his
headphones in because I'll sitnext to him and read a book and
it's like that's together time,but technically we're alone.
But you know, we like that.
My son is very extroverted, he'sthe opposite of us.
So it's funny.
Sometimes in school holidays wecall it taking our extrovert
out to recharge.
Like it's like we're mindful,make sure we go to the park at

(43:43):
least once a day or every secondday, or go to places where he
can.
Like he'll be in a park fiveminutes, he will know everyone's
name, everyone will know hisname and he would have organized
a group activity, whereas I'llbe like I would rather die.
But it's like there's nojudgment or shade.
We are different and I thinksome families, like the family I
grew up in, was veryextroverted and I was not.
They just never understood I'mnot quiet, I'm not shy, I'm not

(44:04):
rude, I just like to be alone,not always, but when I'm alone
then, as you said, you take thattime.
Then you can engage more ratherthan forcing yourself into a
mold that doesn't fit you.

Mary (44:20):
And I think you feel that in your body.
I know for me, if I have toomuch time with other people, I
literally feel pressure in mychest.
It's like I can't get a deepbreath.
And when I I just toleratedthat when I was younger and then
, as I learned and put aside theguilt of you know like it's
okay to have the needs thatdon't because we're supposed to
be extroverted At least that'sthe United States thing.
So when we would haveinternational students that came

(44:43):
from very different culturesand they would not do well in
the classroom, because thelouder you are in an American
classroom, the more quote pointsyou get, and that's really hard
for somebody who that's nottheir culture.
So I think that we're justappreciating that sense of like
what do I really need?
And then not not like draggingthe guilt around with you, yeah

(45:08):
Well recently I volunteered atmy son's school.

Suzanne (45:12):
I will own.
I didn't read the fine print.
I thought I was there for anhour and thankfully I worked for
myself because it turned outI'd actually volunteered for the
whole day.
And when I found that out I waslike, oh, anyway, it was fun,
it was a great day.
They catered, they providedlunch.
Thank goodness I didn't takeanything with me.
Anyway, all this to say, when Igot home I was so exhausted I

(45:32):
was like, oh my gosh, how doteachers do this all day, every
day?
Like, the kids were lovely, theevent was great, it was so well
run, but it was like there'sway too much peopling for me.
But you know, it was kind oflike cause normally I like, when
the school asks for things, Idon't volunteer for the
in-person things.
I'll be the one who does thespreadsheet thing behind the

(45:53):
scenes, or I'll be the one whodoes this, but not the one who,
like, turns up and does it.
But it's like knowing yourstrengths, because I remember
one year I was invited to belike on the parents and friends,
like on the committee.
I was like I'm not a goodperson for this, like it's not
saying I don't care about theschool.
I care about the school enoughto know that you don't want me
organizing the things like this.
But if you need someone to rallydonations or something like

(46:15):
very small interactions and Ithink, as you said, as a society
we've been taught to ignore ournatural state or when we see
somebody fully embodying it, wemake up stories.
But we're going to make upstories about them anyway,
because had I done that role, ohshe's terrible, what'd she do
this for?
So, either way, people aregoing to say stuff.
So you might as well be who youare, cause when I meet someone

(46:41):
with good boundaries, I lovethem, because I know what flies
and what doesn't fly.
There's no underspoken seethingresentment.
It's just like cool, don't callthem after eight.
So you just know.

Mary (46:51):
Yeah, yeah.
And things that aren't, youknow, not your responsibility
are like somebody's feelingswhen you set the boundary, if
somebody gets pissed off becauseyou made a boundary, that's
giving you information aboutthat person yeah, not your
boundary.

Suzanne (47:05):
And if somebody doesn't respect your boundary, like
there's a difference betweensomebody has forgotten all they
need reminding because thathappens or somebody who flies in
the face of it Like an innate.
Example my sister runs a craftshop.
She has a website and she has aphone number and she didn't
have clear hours of when she canbe called.
So somebody rang her at 2am.

(47:27):
I don't know why she answeredher phone, like mine's on
airplane mode.
But each time she answered thephone and she says to the person
oh yeah, like cause.
The person said well, yourwebsite doesn't stay down, I can
call you, you know.
And she's like oh yeah, no,it's like nine till five,
whatever, and she had thisconversation.
So then she hangs up.
The person immediately ringsback Like you know, someone's

(47:48):
having a land of you here,anyway.
So she's like no, no, I'm like,why did you answer the phone
again?
So she's like no, no, I'm like,why did you answer the phone
again?
Anyway, then she hung up andthe person rang back again.
So then my sister blocked hernumber.
But it's just kind of like youif someone is going to keep
pushing, like that they don'tactually want to hire you or
work with you or be a friendwith you.
They've just got their ownstuff going on.

(48:08):
Let them unpack that.
And that's why, with theinternet, the block feature,
lesson block.
Wish you all the best.
Don't want to interact with youanymore.

Mary (48:17):
For sure, yeah, so if people are listening to this and
they they yearn to do this orthey've, as we've talked about,
they've tried and failed.
We talked about a lot ofdifferent ways to do this.
But if somebody said, suzanne,how do I give me the first three
steps?
How would you start?
How would you suggest somebodystarts to get some boundaries in

(48:40):
place First?

Suzanne (48:42):
step, journal, pen and paper, diary, notes on your
phone, voice message, whateverworks for you.
Get really clear on what'shappening now, as much as you
can, without judgment, like,where are you?
Because, say, we were like, asI said, what I've used all
through this, we're moving house.
In order for me to get to thenew house, I need to plot where

(49:03):
is it versus where I am.
So Google maps shows me how toget there, cause I don't know.
I've never been there before.
Do you know what I mean?
So I think sometimes people arelike I want this, but that's
only half of the GPS.
You need to be where you arenow because for everyone
listening to this, your currentsituation, it might be similar.
There might be threads youmight be nodding along, going oh

(49:24):
, I do this, but it's not goingto be exactly the same.
So what is happening currentlyand this is often the step
people miss or they don't like,because you don't like where you
are now and we get that like.
Because you don't like whereyou are now and we get that.
That's why you want to move,that's why you want to change.
But we can't plot a course ifyou don't know where you are.
So, as much as you can, withoutjudgment or shade.
It's just kind of like if wewere going to clean up a room.
You need to turn on the lightand go.

(49:45):
What are we working with?
So it's like what's happeningin your life right now.
Then step number two would bewould I like and even if it
feels like a stretch, and thisis where sometimes people go
completely the other way I wantto live in the Maldives in that
room it's ten thousand dollars anight and have a way to feed me
grapes.
And no, no, no.
Like if you waved a realisticmagic wand.

(50:08):
Like not something that'sbeyond, but you know, I would
like my children to do their ownhomework.
I would like my husband tocarry his plate to the sink.
I would like, you know, I wouldlike my children to do their
own homework.
I would like my husband tocarry his plate to the sink.
I would like.
You know I only cook threenights a week and other people
like whatever it is.
But like what would you desire?
Even if you've got no idea howit's going to be now, because I
can tell you so many things thatI just did.

(50:28):
Like my husband in this rolenot in his new role, but he
actually ends up working fullyfrom home role not in his new
role, but he actually ends upworking fully from home.
And I was like why am I alwaysthe one dropping the kids up and
picking them up from school?
He's home too, so we had to doa really bit of negotiating to
get there.
But now he does the mornings,which allows me to do podcasts
and stuff with you guys in theUS, because he's taking care of
the kids now, and then I do theafternoons.

(50:50):
But you know, there's sometimesso many things you've just
fallen into the habit and you'vejust done this.
Or society says the woman doesthis and the man does this, and
you know in general.
So it's kind of like what wouldyou like?
Is the next step, even if itfeels like a stretch, even if
you don't know how, even if thethought of it is daunting, as I
said, but not moving to theMaldives and living in a $10,000
a day house.
And then the third step is tolook at how you can start.

(51:20):
I recommend, if you're reallygot terrible boundaries and I
know, with people who don't evenknow you yet, so I used to if I
went to a supermarket.
Would you like fries with that?
Would you like a corn cob?
Would you like this?
I go out for one thing and Icome home.
You know I was an easy sell,like I must have had a sign that
said, like suck off.
It was like in the beginning no,thank you.
Because people are going to askthat's their job, they get

(51:46):
extra permission or they getthis.
So you know, I was so bad aboutsaying no.
I was like, oh my gosh, whathappens if I don't buy the corn
cob?
Like nothing happens.
You know, now I'm kind of atthe point I wouldn't quite say
this, but in my head it's likeif I wanted a corncob, I would
audit it Like do you know?
But it's just like, start inthose places If people say, you
know, start with the furthestout and then, as you start to
bring it in and you have to haveconversations, always the three

(52:08):
magic words up until now,because you're acknowledging
this is how it's been and fromhere forward, and make sure the
person is paying attention.
They're not playing their xbox,they're not looking at their
kids running around the park.
They have you, have theirattention and then be open to
negotiate like, does that workfor you because it's amazing.
People often said to me how didyou get this stuff?

(52:29):
How did you do this?
I'm like I asked like becausethe nope coach is not just about
me saying no, it's about mebeing okay with other people
saying no to me.
It's amazing what you get whenyou make a genuine kind ask, not
an assumption or not a weirdkind of like.
I left you a five-star reviewon your podcast, so now you'll
come on mine, right, no?
So start to ask and be open tobe surprised.

(52:53):
You'll be amazed at how manythings that you think, oh my
gosh, seem impossible.
Most people are pretty goodwith.

Mary (52:59):
Yeah, you just reminded me of something that I do, which I
can't stand, but it's so hardfor me to get past it.
When I go into a little shopthat I know is like you know,
like a small business and Idon't buy anything, I feel so
guilty and I'm like what iswrong with you and I don't buy
anything.
I feel so guilty and I'm likewhat is wrong with you, like you
can't go in and just buysomething just because you love
that.
It's a small business.

Suzanne (53:23):
That's one of my things that, I think, is just, I get
stuck on that.
But what you could do, asuggestion, mary, if you're open
to it, yeah, if you're likethat, because I'm like that too
it's like, okay, what are otherways I could support this
business?
Could I leave them a Googlereview?
Could I tell a friend about it?
Could I share one of theirposts?
I think sometimes our heart islike I want to support this
place.
There's so many ways you cansupport people without spending
a dime and that support mighthelp them anymore.

(53:45):
Because, say, I went to alittle shop and I was going to
buy something and maybe it was$5.
But if I leave them a Googlereview, I left a Google review
for this shop once.
I don't know if anyone everleaves them, but Google will
sometimes randomly email you howmany people have viewed your
review?
This review has been viewedover 10,000 times.
I got the email from Google theother day and I was like so

(54:07):
10,000 people have seen that, asopposed to me giving them five
bucks on the day.
Like, how can you supportpeople in ways that you know
probably would go beyond yourather than, oh well, I've got
to give them money and even akind word, like there are people
who have never bought anythingfrom me who send me the most
lovely messages and I love thatand that keeps it going on a

(54:28):
hard day.
Because I could tell youthere's sure as shit a lot of
people who tell you exactly whatthey think about you and it
makes you think why do I evenwant to do this anymore?

Mary (54:35):
Oh my God, I totally hear that.
I totally hear that.
Well, and you know, I thinkit's really cool when you say
you might be surprised becauseyou know one thing personally
you mentioned sort of what Icall invisible labor, these
things that women are socializedto do, that we don't realize
we're doing.
And shortly after I got marriedI realized I felt a sense of, I

(54:58):
felt pressure to plan dinnerall the time, and so I just I
love how you say up until now Ididn't have those words at the
time but I said you know, I feellike there's an expectation
that I'm supposed to plan dinner.
He goes oh my God, I don'texpect that.
And I had been worried like howis he going to receive this?
And I should know, because myhusband is just such a kind

(55:20):
person.
But I was like, oh, you don'texpect that.
So there's so much we put on us.
And also, in the situation tokind of come full circle to my
intro, I was very nervous toemail you but I thought you know
what, I'm just going to bemyself and I'm going to tell her
where I'm coming from and seeif you know I can host her and

(55:42):
whatever's going to happen,what's going to is going to
happen and you know it's likebeen wow, this is really cool,
and those.
So sometimes those connectionscome because you just you know
you sort of resonate withsomeone and it's kind of like,
just go for it and then you seewhat happens.

Suzanne (56:00):
So I have an excellent example that might help people
listening.
And you know, as we're wrappingup, I went to the client once
and she had young children andher parents lived nearby.
My family's always livedinterstate, so I was like it'd
be'd be nice and anyway she washappy to pay for a babysitter,
like to hire someone.
But her mum was always likeI'll take him, I'll take him,

(56:21):
I'll take him, I'll take him.
And one day her mum kind oflike blew up.
You're always dropping the kidshere.
Like I'm not saying she doesn'tlove her grandchildren, please
don't hear that.
But it was just kind of funnybecause my client was like I
would have been happy to hiresomeone and I think sometimes we
don't say the thing and had themum actually said like do you

(56:43):
mind?
Or like another innate example,my husband and I we both wanted
to watch the new Batman movieit's not new now the Robert
Pattinson one.
But anyway we couldn't get tothe cinema, we didn't have a
babysitter.
Long story, story short.
It came out on a streamingservice and we're like, yeah,
put the kids to bed, sittingdown, made popcorn, we're five
minutes in like this movie's thedumbest thing I've ever seen,
do you mean?
Anyway I said to my husband Ihit pause, I'm like I can't.

(57:05):
This is so dumb.
He's like oh, thank goodness, Ididn't want to watch it either,
but I didn't want to sayanything because we've both been
waiting for this for so long.
So be open to when you have theconversation.
Hey, I don't really want toplan dinner.
Oh, I don't mind doing it.
The other person they mightthink that you love it, like
your ex-partner or, if it's acurrent partner, might just
assume because you've alwaysdone it, you want to do it.
And when you actually speak upit's amazing and there will be

(57:29):
some pushback, like my husbandprimarily, is the cook in our
house now and it's funny whenpeople find out there's always a
that must be nice or nice forsome.
And sometimes, like in past Iused to always backpedal oh well
, I do this and like, try andjustify it.
Now I just like it is, it is.
And then people like, how didyou do?

(57:50):
And then it opens up, likesometimes I assume they're being
sarcastic and taking a job, butit's just they're like oh, that
must be nice.
So tonality is everything.
That's why I don't like text asmuch, because must be nice
could be.
I hear it in my head as nice forsome, but sometimes it is like
nice for some, like it's open,so it's like I just own it.
It is I don't like cooking, hedoesn't love it, but he

(58:13):
tolerates it.
And then we found our system.
Our marriage is very oppositeof what you expect, like when
the things come for school andmy son takes in the cookies and
the teacher goes oh, you're amom.
He's like my mom can't bake,it's my dad.
But it's funny how societyaccepts.
And then there are other waysyou get to do you in a way
that's like yeah, this is whatworks for us, doesn't need to

(58:35):
work for everyone.

Mary (58:36):
Yeah, and having the conversation is the beginning.
Just allowing it doesn't matterif it's been that way for 15
years, just those powerful wordsyou said.
Up until now we've done it thisway.

Suzanne (58:49):
I've seen couples where the woman has been like,
actually I want to go back towork, like I miss this, and the
dude's like, yeah, I'll be thehouse husband or the house
person or whatever you want tocall it.
And it's like, yeah, it's nottypically that way, but why not?
And sometimes we just put upbecause we've always done it.
But if you don't voice and, asI said up until now, softens it.
But what tends to happen is weput up, put up, put up, put up

(59:11):
and explode.
People pleasers are explodingdoormats and then the
relationship is.
But if you start to voice, notin a sneaky hinty kind of way,
but in a this is how it's beenand I desire change.
From that point you'll findalmost everyone is on board and
there will be some people whopush back, but it will be a lot
less than you think.
In all the times I've had aboundary conversation, I can

(59:35):
think of only two that reallyexploded.
And then to me, honestly, if Iwas only keeping those people in
my life because I was placatingthem, is that the kind of
friendships that I want to bepart of?
And honestly, no, I valuemyself more enough that if the
only thing we're getting out ofthis is you getting something
and I'm not at the expense of.
I don't desire that anymore.

Mary (59:55):
Wow, that was a beautiful concluding sentence.
So I know that we can find allof your stuff at
SuzanneKohlbergcom forward slasheverything right, which I love,
your everything page.
Is there anything you want torecap for what I mean?
You have your, you have apodcast, the Nope Coach.

Suzanne (01:00:15):
So I have a podcast, I have the I know things readings
and I don't coach anymore.
But if you do have, if you wantto book a session, I have a
session called the wallop and ifyou, it's just one hour, it's
not a package, it's not anunderhanded single thing trying
to get you into something bigger.
Like if you're like, okay, I'veset this boundary or I'm
nervous about setting thisboundary or whatever, book one

(01:00:36):
of those sessions.
And honestly I'm a straightshooter, sharp talker, like this
is how it is.
I can't stand like I think theonline business world is having
a reckoning right now in termsof you think you've bought
something and actually it's.
I remember signing up forsomething once.
That was six months and thevery first call they're like
you're here for three years.
I was like wait, what?
So it's like, seriously, it was.

(01:00:56):
So it's like that's.
I'm fully transparent.
But you know I've got likenearly 500 episodes of my
podcast.
Chances are you'll findsomething related to the
boundary thing that you have.
Or just send me a message.
I've got on my contact page, mywebsite.
I don't do DMs, but I do loveemail.

Mary (01:01:12):
Yeah, no, you're right, we are.
There's a lot of mistrust nowand I think we are unfortunately
caught up in that, but youfound a refreshing way to
address it by just beingstraight.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
You totally made my week andthis was a very fun conversation
, thank you.
Thank you everyone forlistening.
I will put a link in the shownotes so you can find Suzanne

(01:01:36):
and explore everything sheoffers.
Please take a second to forwardthis episode to someone you
know who would benefit fromhearing our conversation today.
When friends have sent me links, it always makes me smile to
know they were thinking of me.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantViolet that you are.