October 2, 2025 • 49 mins
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Have we weaponized mental health terminology to the point of meaninglessness? Shannon Petrovich, therapist and author specializing in narcissistic relationships, joins us to untangle what truly constitutes toxic behavior versus simply unhealthy dynamics.
"Anyone with whom they had a difficult relationship was bipolar, probably wrong. Most recently, the diagnosis du jour seems to often be narcissist. Again, most likely wrong," explains Mary as she introduces this critical conversation. While the term 'narcissist' has become social media shorthand for difficult people, Shannon reveals that true narcissistic personality disorder affects roughly 6.2% of the population – far from the implied 50% suggested by casual labeling.
Shannon unpacks the vital distinction between unhealthy relationships (where needs aren't met) and truly toxic ones (where you're "literally dying emotionally, becoming bankrupt, physically deteriorating"). Drawing on Bessel van der Kolk's groundbreaking work on how trauma resides in our bodies, she illuminates how chronic stress from toxic relationships floods us with harmful hormones, effectively poisoning us from within.
The conversation delves into why we're drawn to familiar patterns, even destructive ones. "We bring templates with us," Shannon explains, challenging the harmful myth that people are "comfortable with abuse." Instead, she reveals how childhood experiences create stories that align us with people who aren't good for us, creating what she calls "a tragically perfect match" between narcissistic and empathic personalities.
Most powerfully, Shannon offers practical steps for healing, starting with repairing our relationship with ourselves through journaling and boundary-setting. "Boundaries always work," she insists. "They either get a different response from that person and the relationship changes, or they give you the information you need to back away and protect yourself differently."
Whether you're questioning your own relationship patterns or supporting someone through toxicity, this episode provides clarity, compassion, and concrete tools for reclaiming your wellbeing and rebuilding your life on healthier terms.
Comments about this episode? Suggestions for a future episode? Email me directly at NSVpodcast@gmail.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey, violets, welcome to theshow.
First, a quick thank you to you, the listener.
I recently discovered that mypodcast is in the top 10% of all
(00:48):
podcasts currently, and thiscould not happen without all of
you responding, giving commentsand sharing your favorite
episodes.
So thank you.
Okay, I've worked in the mentalhealth world for over three
decades.
Most of that time was spent incollege student mental health.
I remember the first time Ifelt panic when a student sat in
(01:08):
my office and told me herdiagnosis.
I had never heard of it.
What did I miss?
But then I realized TikTok.
And now, between social mediaand AI, I see both the benefit
of people finding informationthat helps them make sense of
their challenges and theoversimplified, catchphrase-y
and, honestly, blatantlyinaccurate information related
(01:31):
to mental health.
Just the other day I saw a postabout a quote diagnosis that
doesn't exist.
Yet someone commented this isan actual diagnosis.
This sounds just like me.
About 10 years ago peoplestarted saying anyone with whom
they had a difficultrelationship was bipolar,
probably wrong.
(01:51):
Most recently, the diagnosis dujour for people in one's life
causing issues seem to often benarcissist Again, most likely
wrong.
According to a study in theJournal of Psychiatry, the
prevalence of lifetimenarcissistic personality
disorder was about 6.2%.
Rates are higher for men, butkeep in mind that this
(02:14):
percentage can vary depending onwhat study you read and how the
study is structured.
But based on how often peopleclaim an ex is a narcissist, the
percentage would be about 50%.
Now, that is not to diminishthe experience of those affected
by true narcissist.
It is just that human behavioris often more complex than a
(02:38):
label.
Okay, so here's the thing aboutdiagnoses they are very rarely
cut and dried.
Here's the thing aboutdiagnoses they are very rarely
cut and dried.
I have seen diagnoses in therecords of new clients that were
given by past practitionersthat made me shake my head in
puzzlement.
I didn't see any evidence forthat diagnosis.
The diagnoses, as well as thesymptoms, often evolve over time
(03:00):
, so each time a new DSMDiagnostic and Statistical
Manual which is what mentalhealth professionals use to
diagnose every time a new one isdeveloped, there's a lot of
debate.
It is not a quick process andoften criteria and names of
diagnoses change.
My guest today has made it partof her mission to educate people
(03:23):
about what narcissism truly isand how to help those affected
by the behaviors of bothnarcissists and those who may
not meet the criteria but whocontribute to a toxic
relationship.
Shannon Petrovich is atherapist coach, author and
YouTube creator specializing inhelping people deal with and
heal from narcissistic.
(03:44):
Specializing in helping peopledeal with and heal from
narcissistic, abusive and othertoxic relationships.
Her book is Out of the Fog Intothe Clear Journaling to Help
you Heal from ToxicRelationships.
She has a YouTube channel,therapist Talks Thrive Beyond
Narcissism, where she offersinsights, information and
strategies on a wide range ofmental health issues.
(04:05):
She takes a trauma-informed,strengths-based approach to help
people identify theirself-limiting old stories and
negative internal self-talk, tohelp them overcome
self-destructive relationshippatterns and become all they
were created to be.
Welcome to no Shrinking VioletShannon.
Shannon (04:23):
Thank you so much, mary , it's great to be here.
Mary (04:26):
Okay.
So I would love to dive intothe idea of toxic relationships
and boundaries from kind of atherapist to therapist angle.
It's really a delight to havesomeone on the show with me who
we can sort of have sometherapist speak.
So recently I followed someoneon Instagram.
She's recently exploded withfollowers and her messages
(04:51):
partly protect ourselves, butnot too much.
So we talk about protecting ourpeace and we have become so.
I'm gonna put educated inquotes, because working with
young people like they are somuch more knowledgeable now and
some of it's accurate, some ofit's not.
She is a therapist too, so Ithink sometimes things are
(05:15):
confusing.
It's like protect your peace,set your boundaries, but not too
much, or you won't havecapacity to deal with things.
So, first of all, why do youthink so many people struggle
now with what we call, we'll say, toxic relationships?
Shannon (05:30):
It is so big and complex it's hard to suss it out
and I like to keep it simpler.
I think it's really, reallyimportant that we look at first
the toxic relationship that wehave with ourselves, because
oftentimes we're always, we'relooking out there, we're focused
out there, we're sussing outand diagnosing everybody out
(05:52):
there and the truth of it isthat we bring with us a template
.
So Bessel van der Kolk, theBody, keeps the Score.
That's kind of my go-to andsomething I always recommend to
people.
My go-to and something I alwaysrecommend to people because he
talks about templates andoftentimes you'll hear people
(06:17):
mistakenly and rudely andhorribly say well, they're just
comfortable with abuse orthey're just comfortable in
toxic relationships.
They're always going to do that.
That makes me cringe because noone is comfortable with abuse
or toxic relationships.
But we do have a tendency tohave experiences in childhood
that are adverse events of anysort, them as stories, and we
(06:42):
bring those stories and thosetemplates with us and then they
do often align with people whoare not necessarily good for us.
We do tend to bring thatself-talk with us into our lives
so that if we have afrustration or a fear or a
mistake that we've made, we beatourselves mercilessly, we're
(07:04):
our own worst enemy, and so thatcan lead us to be more
accepting of, or resonant withsomebody else who beats us up
emotionally.
So those things are importantand we do bring those things
with us, and if we don't starton the inside, we are just going
(07:24):
to keep repeating thosepatterns.
So when we look at how we treatourselves, how we talk to
ourselves and then move fromthere outward, that helps us to
set boundaries in a reallydifferent way, and then that
boundary setting is more organic, it makes more sense.
It isn't just reactive,defensive and emotional, but
(07:46):
it's.
I'm coming from a centered,grounded place within myself and
I can take care of myself onthe outside too.
Mary (07:56):
Yeah Well, you said a couple things there, so I'm
making notes.
I don't want to forgetsomething.
But first of all, I want totalk a little more about the
word toxic, because I think wehave started to really overstate
things.
Some relationships are simplyunhealthy, and that's not to
downplay them, but toxic to meis it's such a strong word
(08:17):
Narcissism, such a strong word,but we started to take this huge
paintbrush and paint thesewords that are so what's the
word?
They're so severe.
So what is your thought onusing the word toxic?
Shannon (08:33):
Really good question and it is so important to
recognize.
We have weaponized so manywords in our social media
culture and it's reallyimportant to back up and look at
it more realistically, becausethere are relationships that are
unhealthy and then there arerelationships that are toxic.
The difference to me isunhealthy means my thoughts,
(08:59):
feelings, wants and needs aren'tbeing met or acknowledged or
heard or kept safe.
Toxic is when I am literallydying within this relationship,
emotionally, becoming justbankrupt.
Physically my health is goingdownhill, maybe my finances are
(09:22):
depleted and I'm heading towardsbankruptcy.
So that's toxic.
It's like it is killing you.
And when we look at our immunesystem and how the body does
keep the score, when we areflooded with stress hormones
over and over again all day,every day, we literally are
(09:42):
drinking poison and our body isbeing toxically affected by this
relationship.
So that's the difference.
You know, some things can bejust unhealthy, you're right.
Other things are literallykilling you.
Mm-hmm.
Mary (09:59):
So you talked about Bessel van der Kolk with the Body
Keeps the Score.
It might be a book people haveheard of, maybe not, but it's
really.
I'm going to simplify it in anamazing amount, but it's about
how our experiences are held inour body and we especially, I
think, in the West, we think ourbody is one thing, our mind is
(10:22):
another and even sometimes ourheart and our spirit are other.
So sometimes four things, butreally anything perpetrated upon
us or anything we experience,and I'm going to say I'll use
the word trauma, but alsotraumatic events.
And again, there we have, Ithink, a continuum.
Trauma is not necessarily, or atraumatic event is not
(10:45):
necessarily a severe trauma, butit affects us.
A loss, a loss of a pet, a lossof a loved one, a loss of a job
, and these are all things thatwe hold in our body.
And I think people well, fromwhere I sit, people don't
recognize that a lot of timesour physical ailments are a
manifestation of what hashappened to us emotionally.
Shannon (11:07):
Yeah, very definitely, and the information and the
research on it that Bessel andmany, many others have done is
really intriguing.
And the importance of readingbooks like that or noticing that
or talking about that, is thatit helps us to validate our
(11:28):
experience and to understand whywe are physically unhealthy as
a result of this relationship.
And I've had people come to mypractice and say, well, I have
anxiety and depression.
I'm like, okay, so then we talkabout their lives.
It's like, well, holy crap, I'dbe anxious and depressed if I
(11:49):
live with that person too.
Like, of course, but it isn'tthat you have this illness
called anxiety and depression.
It's that you live in thisincredibly unhealthy, toxic
environment where this person isdoing micro and macro
aggressions 24-7 and you feelbacked into a corner and you
(12:13):
grew up with that, so you don'tknow how to work yourself out of
it.
You're in a constant freezemode and so we have to look at
how that fight and so we have tolook at how that fight, flight
or freeze mechanism gets unstuck.
So that you know, we broughtthat with us from childhood.
Now we're living it and it'sstuck on screech and we're
(12:37):
constantly being flooded withthese poisons that our bodies
and our minds were not designedto take 24-7.
They were designed to take thatonce in a blue moon, when a
cheetah is chasing you down thejungle canopy, but that's it.
So we have to recognize itbecomes a physiological reality
(13:01):
that it can kill you, destroysyour immune system, it destroys
your functionality, yourresilience, your all of it.
Mary (13:12):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I think we don'talso recognize, sometimes
cognitively, what's happening.
So for we register microexpressions somewhere in our
body, you know, we know we readthat, but we don't always, it
doesn't always connect to ourbrain.
(13:33):
So sometimes we're like why amI so stressed out?
Why does this person, you know,create so much anxiety?
Well, somewhere in your body,probably your amygdala, which
has been trained to spotdifficulties, recognizes a
pattern.
And so when you're talkingabout this chronic stress and
what people don't reallysometimes understand is we are
(13:56):
made to experience stress andhave that sympathetic nervous
system response and thende-escalate.
The parasympathetic, whichcalms us down, is supposed to
get its turn.
But when we're in these chronicsituations we don't have that
ability a lot of times.
So it's like putting your carup on blocks and then slamming
(14:20):
your foot down on the gas.
It's like you're not gettinganywhere but you're just revving
your engine.
So when you see this in someone, how do you start to undo some
of that?
Shannon (14:34):
You know the education piece is just critical.
For starters, some of thevideos that I've done, and
certainly in my work, I say youknow, so you're done with the
toxic X and you still feelterrible.
And then talking about how wehave these three parts of our
(14:56):
brain and you're, you know, youkind of alluded to that, the
triune brain, and yes, there's alot of nuance around that, I'm
not going to get lost in theweeds.
But basically that fight,flight or freeze response.
Then the emotional brain whichfeeds that, sometimes positively
to calm it down, sometimesnegatively by ramping it up.
(15:16):
And then we have our rationalmind, no-transcript by fight,
(15:39):
flight or freeze, and then tocalm that down and then use our
rational mind.
So people will say I just feelcrazy, I think I've got
Alzheimer's, I think I can'tfunction anymore, I can't make
decisions.
That's true, that's literallytrue, because your rational mind
is offline when you areconstantly on screech.
(16:01):
So we have to calm down.
We have to notice the threeparts Calm down the amygdala by
finding safety within ourselvesand in our environment.
Calm down the emotionalreactivity which is feeding that
and teach it to calm it downinstead of ramp it up.
And then notice the rationalmind and in my book I talk about
(16:27):
how clarity is the first letterof clear, where you need to,
like take a rational inventoryof this relationship, of how
you're doing, how you've beensince you've been with this
person, what this looks likereally in concrete terms, what
everybody's telling you that youdon't want to hear and you're
(16:47):
arguing with, and so get thatclarity, write it down and make
a rational decision.
I need to get done with thisrelationship or I need to create
really good boundaries and seewhat happens, because sometimes
we haven't done that step yetand then that rational mind gets
online and then you can kind ofdrag the emotional mind along
(17:10):
because you're trauma bonded tothat person.
You're going to react to theirreactions to you, saying I don't
want to do this anymore, andthen they're going to bring out
know, bring out all the hooksand all the drama.
So you have to know, okay,that's going to happen.
I'm going to watch that circusfrom a distance.
(17:31):
I'm going to keep myself ontrack with the rational decision
I made and know that myemotional mind is going to go
crazy.
Even my alarm system that's allfaulty is going to go crazy,
but I'm going to do what I knowI need to do anyway.
Mary (17:50):
Yeah, I want to circle back on something too that's
sort of at the beginning of allof this, and that is we are
attracted to what we know.
So I recently visited somebodyat work and they work somewhere
where there's very strongchemical smell and it almost
knocked me over.
They don't smell it anymore.
So it's kind of like this ideaof olfactory fatigue.
(18:10):
You don't smell the scent ofyour own home because you're in
it all the time.
We don't have that perceptionanymore.
So I think, well, I rememberhaving some of my college
students and I loved workingwith them because they're just
sort of coming into this spacewhere they're very independent,
and they would say to me I keepattracting these same people.
(18:31):
Why does this happen?
And I said, well, it's like youlive in a city that is so noisy
and now you're trying to find aplace that's quiet and your
mind doesn't know what to dowith that quiet.
So I think we literally have tohelp them rewire that, because
they understand it's not healthy, but it's familiar and the
(18:55):
unfamiliar sometimes seemsscarier seems scarier.
Shannon (19:04):
Yes, and it's complicated, because one of the
things that Bessel talks aboutthat I think is extremely true
is, whatever we grow up with, itisn't just what happened, it's
how we storied it.
So you know, when people growup in chaos, some of the kids in
that home will become part ofthe wallpaper.
They decided that their bestdefense was just to be
(19:24):
completely invisible.
So that person is kind offrozen in their life and they
tend to be frozen in their livesand in all their relationships.
Then there might be another onewho you know acted out and was
very aggressive and very likeattention seeking in order to
survive.
So, and then there was anotherone who was placating and people
(19:48):
pleasing and peacekeeping.
Usually, the therapist end upbeing a therapist and often end
up being with people who wantsomebody who will placate them,
who will people-please them andwho will peace-keep them.
And that was one of my earliestvideos was called the Narcissist
(20:12):
and the Empathic Person aTragically Perfect Match, and it
is that we resonate with peoplewe can save and placate and
peacekeep, somebody who wantsthat in us instead of somebody
who fulfills us and is an equalpartner.
So we resonate with that.
(20:34):
They resonate with that becausethey're like, oh heck, yeah, I
want that, yeah, and so it'sthis perfect enmeshment.
That is really hard to breakand you know, I'll typically
hear somebody say I love them.
Well, you're attached to them.
But let's talk about what loveis, and you know, love is
(20:59):
patient and kind and caring andnot boastful and not selfish,
and it's a person who sees youand keeps you safe emotionally.
They care about your thoughts,feelings, wants and needs, those
basic basic things.
(21:19):
And if you talk to somebodyabout that and they go, nope,
nope, nope, nope, nope nope,nope, nope, nope nope, that
isn't love, it's attachment, andthat's fine.
But let's call it what it is,because that isn't love.
Mary (21:37):
I think, because we paint love as and you know you
mentioned narratives in yourinformation like how and that's.
I talk about that all the timethese negative narratives or
what we tell ourselves and Ithink society paints love as
this topsy-turvy, really intense.
You know it's all about.
You know you meet somebody andit's always love at first sight
(21:59):
and you know it's sometimesthese ups and downs and fights
and yes, there's ups and downs.
Always love at first sight andyou know it's sometimes these
ups and downs and fights and,yes, there's ups and downs but
love doesn't typically hurt.
Often it doesn't make youabandon yourself.
It's not unsettling, but Ithink we get so used to this
idea of it's supposed to feelthis way that we're not sure how
(22:20):
to find something different.
Shannon (22:24):
Especially if we grew up looking at that and that was
our role model, then wedefinitely don't have a
perspective that keeps us safeand we do tend to set ourselves
up for relationships that areunhealthy or even toxic.
And again, what's important isthat we recognize that, we step
(22:48):
back from it.
We recognize, well, I wouldnever speak to somebody that way
, I would never treat someonethat way, I would never hurt
someone that way, and I need tostop allowing that from someone
else and stop doing it to myself, because the other weird thing
is that we train ourselves.
You talked about the subtlethat we're reading everybody and
(23:13):
all those subtle nuances.
Well, what's amazing is thatpeople who are very
self-centered are veryself-absorbed, don't care about
your thoughts, feelings, wantsand needs, only care about their
own and believe in their heartand soul that those are the only
ones that do matter yours don't.
(23:35):
Those people do a lot of thesesubtle microaggressions and also
the macroaggressions, but theywill use the least amount of
aggression or tantrum, if youwill to get the response they
want, and so they're going toteach you I don't like that, I
(23:59):
do like this, I like it when youdo this, I don't like it when
you do that, and it's a lot ofdifferent things, like isolating
you.
They'll throw a little minitantrum when you want to go
spend time with your family oryour friends Well, I guess you
don't care about me, like I careabout you, or they'll ghost you
for a day, or you know.
So all these different nuancedthings train you to then train
(24:24):
yourself, because this lovebombing feels so good, so you
want to get back to that andthey're always giving you these
little messages about how youcan fix that and make it back to
that, which isn't even true oraccurate and it's all a ruse.
So the really dangerous part isthat we train ourselves, so
(24:47):
they've set that in motion, butthen we take it on and we have
to undo all that damage becausewe have to recognize I can't fix
that, I can't change them, I'vedone everything, been as
perfect as I could be, andthat's just sick.
That's just not what I need tobe doing in a relationship.
Mary (25:09):
Yeah, yeah, I think we sometimes need to earn love and,
yeah, you're right, certainpeople teach us here's how you
earn the A and they mold us andwe allow that.
So I want to talk a littleabout this idea of wanting to
have a label for something andpeople sort of throwing this
narcissist label onto people.
(25:32):
So can you tell us a little bitabout what really it is to be a
narcissist?
And maybe also we don't want todiscount that there are a lot
of people that recognize that itis perhaps to the level of
toxicity their relationship.
However, there might not be thelabel.
(25:52):
We don't know what the label is.
But, yeah, could we start withwhat really is narcissism and
then expand however you feellike you need to from that?
Shannon (26:03):
narcissism and then expand however you feel like you
need to from that.
Yeah, and that's so importantbecause it has become so
weaponized.
You know, one of my first jobswas at a battered women's
shelter and we never talkedabout narcissism, we just talked
about abuse.
But the essence of a narcissistis that they don't have a solid
internal sense of self.
It's all an external shell.
I talk about in one of myvideos, the narcissistic
(26:26):
collapse which I use the analogyof a hot air balloon.
If you don't pump that hot airballoon with hot air all the
time, it implodes and then itexplodes.
And that's very much like whata narcissist is like.
They have this kind of emptysense of self that's just not
(26:46):
well formed, it's not a solidsense of who you are.
If you think about people whoare sort of have that emptiness
and they have to be constantlypumped up and have to be
constantly sort of propped upand when they're not, then they
(27:07):
implode and explode and you see,that kind of behavior that
happens in that extreme isnarcissistic trait and a very
narcissistic trait.
Um, I think when we feel goodabout ourselves, when we know
who we are, we know ourcharacter, we know that we kind
(27:28):
of respect and like those valuesand qualities in ourselves.
We don't have to boast and wedon't have to be puffed up and
we don't need everybody to payattention to us all the time.
We don't have to boast and wedon't have to be puffed up and
we don't need everybody to payattention to us all the time.
We don't have to take up allthe air in the room.
That's just not a thing.
So I think you can sense itwhen you look at it that way.
(27:51):
In essence, their thoughts,feelings, wants and needs matter
and yours don't.
They don't take responsibilityfor their actions.
They have a very superficialview of people, of themselves.
So they are all aboutappearances, money, status, and
(28:11):
they don't look at the deepercharacter qualities.
They're very dishonest, they'revery non-empathic.
They can tell you what you wantto hear and not mean it.
So you have to look at theiractions.
They can say how empathic theyare, but then they turn around
and share a story about howfunny it was when someone got
really, really emotionally orphysically hurt.
(28:34):
So noticing all these things,it's really important.
Behavior speaks louder thanwords and we have to recognize
that and they will.
When they get disappointed orupset or mad.
They go right for the jugular.
They're not a hey, we need totalk about this.
They bring up your deepest,darkest, most painful place in
(28:59):
your heart and soul and theythrow it in your face and they
blow up.
You know they don't haveconversations, they drop
grenades in the room and that iskind of another thing that you
can notice and go huh that's notgood.
Mary (29:19):
Well and you bring up a good point is sometimes the
barometer is what I treatsomeone that I love like this
and that can help you step backand, you know, be able to be a
tiny bit more objective.
So you're talking aboutsomething that I want to kind of
tease apart, something becauseI recently did a mini episode on
sociopaths and also was a gueston a show where I talked about
(29:43):
this and I had somebody respondto me when I talked about
sociopaths a little bit, callingme out that they're people too,
and by saying they, it sort ofmakes this boundary between you
know, the people that are normaland sociopaths.
So first I think and you cansort of debate this with me I
(30:06):
think we get muddied when we tryto think what's a sociopath,
what's a narcissist, what's apsychopath, and even experts in
those areas don't know that.
The tests to determine it arevery widely.
But I think the other part ofthat is understanding, and this
goes back to the labels.
We don't need to label someoneto know that we feel crappy when
(30:32):
we try to have a relationshipwith them.
So I just want to put a littleasterisk on that because I think
, as we're talking that, whenwe're saying as therapists, they
, some people look at that andsay, well, you're being
insensitive because they'repeople.
And now there are memoirswritten by sociopaths which I've
just read too.
It's very, very interestingbecause it comes from a place of
(30:54):
saying I've been misunderstoodmy whole life and, yes, I get
that.
But I think you and I both knowthat very rarely do true people
with true antisocialpersonality disorder or
narcissistic personalitydisorder.
They often don't end up intherapy, and there's a reason
for that Right.
Shannon (31:17):
And the diagnostic stuff?
You're right.
A diagnosis is only a way todescribe a cluster of symptoms
and so people think that it'sgot some magical aha, and it
really isn't, it's muddy, and itreally isn't it's muddy.
Typically people have thesetraits and those traits.
(31:40):
They can have an underlyingmood disorder that then they
have the personality disorder ortraits.
Also, it can be mild, moderateor severe, and in the severe
range you have a lot of delusionand that's really important.
So when you are looking atsomeone who seems to have a
personality disorder, you alsowant to look at the level of
(32:04):
delusion.
Like they, even in the, in theface of evidence, they will not
come off of their belief, nomatter what you know, you can
say you know you wereresponsible for doing A, b or C.
Or you said A, b or C andthey're like nope, did not.
(32:25):
And no matter what evidence youbring to bear, they don't
believe you and they don'tchange.
That's a little over on thisside, a little over on this side
.
The delusion, sociopathy, reallythe dividing line is do they
(32:46):
gain joy from hurting people oranimals or do they lack empathy
to the degree that they canreally hurt somebody?
And or even, you know, takeaway their rights, so that
oppression or that trappingsomeone, and so that's where
(33:08):
that can become sort of overthat line into sociopathic, when
someone traps somebody to thedegree that they really don't
believe that that person has aright to exist outside of that
relationship with them.
And I've seen that a lot oftimes too, and you're right,
people with narcissism andsociopathy only show up in
(33:30):
therapy with a partner, and theyonly show up as long as you're
not taking them to task, andthen they bolt.
Mary (33:41):
Yeah.
Shannon (33:42):
And they say that you sucked as a therapist.
Mary (33:46):
Which, thank you.
That might be a compliment.
Sometimes it means you'reeffective, right, that's right
it means you told the truth.
Yeah, and I think what a lot ofpeople don't know is laypersons
is a personality disorder isconsidered enduring and whereas
something like major depressivedisorder or generalized anxiety
disorder, those can be transient.
(34:08):
I mean, they're quite differentand we used to when we did our
diagnosis we would put apersonality disorder like
borderline narcissistic puts apersonality disorder like
borderline narcissistic,antisocial, they would go on to
a different quote axis, which wedon't do that anymore, but it
was to show here's an enduringthing and it's kind of like
saying someone prefers dogs tocats, they prefer these certain
(34:33):
foods, they have even somethinglike sometimes I a certain eye
color.
There are certain things partof your enduring traits that
would be very difficult tochange and I think that's
sometimes where people and again, if they're self-diagnosing a
lot of times I think people nowself-diagnose I'm a sociopath
because it's hard for me tounderstand someone else.
(34:55):
Well, that could be a lot ofother things me to understand
someone else.
Well, that could be a lot ofother things.
So I think you know,understanding that when you have
someone in your life that, asyou're saying, you can say
here's exactly what happened.
You could even I don't evenknow you could have a video and
it'd be like yeah, no, that's AI, you didn't.
You know that level of denialis not changeable.
(35:16):
You know that level of denialis not changeable.
And so I think, understandingthat sometimes just because you
love someone, you can love themand recognize that they had past
trauma, whatever.
That still doesn't mean youneed to stay in that
relationship.
Shannon (35:34):
Right, yeah, and it's so crucial to make that
(35:55):
distinction.
You can love someone to waituntil the love goes away or the
empathy for them goes awaybefore you leave.
You make a rational decision toleave to save yourself, and
that's just super important.
But, yeah, the diagnostic stuffis really muddy and we just
have to not get into diagnosingpeople that we don't know, that
(36:19):
we don't, and it doesn't putthem in a box that they can
never get out of.
So here's the thing again,circling back around to starting
from the inside out.
When you recognize that youmight be in a toxic relationship
what I always encourage peopleto do unless there's physical
violence that you start tonotice your thoughts, feelings,
(36:46):
wants and needs and start tonotice all the ways that you
placate people, please and peacekeep, and you start to do it
differently.
So that looks like no, I don'treally want to go out tonight.
I think I'll spend the night inmy jammies and watching movies
and then seeing what they do,watching movies and then seeing
(37:09):
what they do.
Or I'm not going to listen toyou when you start to escalate
like that.
If you want to calm down, wecan have a conversation later,
or I'm going to head homebecause this just doesn't feel
good.
It feels like I'm not heard.
And when people do that,sometimes the other person goes
oh, I didn't know, that botheredyou because you've never said
anything.
True, you know, if I've spentthe relationship being a
(37:32):
placater, they don't know how Ifeel, they don't know what I
think or want or need yeah,Valid.
And so there are somerelationships that I've worked
with where you would think thiswas absolutely unresolvable,
where you would think this wasabsolutely unresolvable and yet
(37:56):
that person loved that person somuch that they noticed,
recognized, changed theirbehavior and became an equal
partner who cherished thatperson instead of being a bully
and a selfish kind of person.
So we don't really know untilwe show up fully.
And you know, if you're new ina relationship, make sure that
you're showing up fully, Makesure that you are not just going
(38:18):
along for the ride, but you'resaying what you think, feel,
want and need and you'restanding up for yourself and
you're watching what that persondoes.
Mary (38:28):
If they throw little tantrums and little
microaggressions and littleghostings and all that garbage,
walk away sooner than laterthink, when we're getting into
especially new romanticrelationships, we think so much
about you know first date, whatshould I wear, how should I act?
(38:53):
And again, I worked with youngpeople.
They would say those things I'mlike, you don't act, you are
you.
And then you're going to reallyfind out if someone cares about
you.
I mean, the most powerful thingto me is when somebody sees you
and loves you.
So when you act or you placateor you go along, when does that
end?
And it sort of segues into andthis is often women do the
(39:14):
invisible labor of arelationship and it makes me
think.
And this is very simple, but Iwas recently remarried, within
the last three years, and Irealized I had this idea that I
was supposed to plan dinner andI love cooking, but I hated that
pressure.
So the one day I said you know,I feel like I always have to
(39:35):
plan dinner because what are youtalking about?
I thought you liked it.
And so I think giving ourselvespermission, especially as women
, that no matter how long we'vebeen in a relationship, if we're
feeling discontent or it'suneven or there's a behavior we
don't like and this was not hisbehavior, this was all me and
what I was putting on myself,but I think you find out a lot.
(39:57):
So if you put your foot downand you truly have someone that
has a serious diagnosis, they'regoing to try to maintain the
status quo, they're going todeny, they're going to push back
.
It's really good informationyou get from that.
Shannon (40:16):
Exactly, and that's why I always say boundaries always
work.
Because people say, well, youdon't understand, Boundaries
don't work with this person.
No, they always work.
They either get a differentresponse from that person and
their relationship changes, orthey give you the information
you need to back away andprotect yourself differently.
Because if that person doesn'trespond in a positive way when
(40:41):
you do talk about what you think, feel, want and need, If you
need a little space and thisrelationship's moving too
quickly and they have a littletantrum and ghost you and do all
that stuff, or you know biggerstuff, like, yeah, I'm going to
go spend time with my family,and they're like, well, that's
just unacceptable, they're notgood enough for you.
(41:02):
You know all those games thatbecomes.
If you placate that, then youare setting that template for
the relationship and then therelationship down the line is a
mess and you can clean it up andthen see what happens.
But you have to emotionallystep back and watch that circus.
(41:24):
Oh wow, he bounced or shebounced because women do this
too.
I'm never going to say that inthat way, because I've seen lots
and lots of men inrelationships with toxic and
narcissistic women.
Oh wow, she or he bounced fromanger to tears, back to anger,
(41:49):
over to guilt, back to anger,over to tears, again, like it's
this whack-a-mole thing.
Mary (41:59):
And you're just sitting there going all right, good
information.
Shannon (42:01):
Don't want to play this game anymore.
All I said was blah, blah, blah, and they're freaking out Weird
.
Mary (42:09):
Yeah, no, that's a really good point, because some of that
you know the women and crying,you know, is it's sort of that.
We a little bit againstsocialization, but I think men
have been socialized.
When a woman cries like youtake care of it.
But when you can step back andbe like what is this pattern?
You know what is happening hereand I think boundaries are very
(42:30):
hard and very confusing and Ithink many of us believe if I
set a boundary, the otherperson's behavior is going to
change.
And that's not always what Imean.
I think I tend to say whatoutcome do you want?
If you're doing something toget an outcome of a behavior
change in another person, youcan't control that.
(42:53):
But if you're setting aboundary because you need to
create some space for yourselfto be able to do what you're
saying like, look at thisrelationship from a little bit
of an objective eye, if you can,even if it means, I think,
writing stuff down.
Here's what happened.
I felt this way, but this isthe behavior I noticed.
So you've given so many goodlittle tidbits and gems today.
(43:18):
So let's say somebody'slistening, because we know how
often when somebody's deep insomething, how hard it is for
them to like where do I evenstart?
So, aside from finding atherapist, which again can seem
daunting, but if somebody islistening, what?
How would you say they canstart to create this shift for
(43:38):
themselves.
Three to five things that maybethey can start to focus on to
slowly kind of create a shiftand a change in this situation
for themselves.
Shannon (43:49):
Great question, and I think the first step is really
to and I am a big proponent ofjournaling.
That's why my book is all aboutjournaling and lots and lots of
prompts to guide people throughthis.
Originally, when I did mychannel, I didn't want to write
a book.
I wanted to share informationand strategies.
(44:12):
And then it became obvious thatI wanted to write that book to
help people who aren't going tohave access to a therapist, or
even who do, but want us, as anadjunct to to, really walk
through the process of healingfrom the inside out, of noticing
all of the games that peopleplay and not letting those
(44:35):
control you anymore.
So I think, journaling aboutwhat kind of relationship do I
have within my own head?
I would never speak that way toa friend.
Why do I allow myself to speakthat way to myself every time I
have a hard time?
And starting to become your ownbest friend, starting to notice
the things that are going on inyour relationships, starting to
(44:58):
notice what you think, feel,want and need and start to stand
up for that.
See what happens journal aboutthat.
See what happens Journal aboutthat.
And then you know, graduallytake your life back and rebuild.
A lot of times, when people comeout of a toxic relationship,
(45:19):
they wander right back into one,because they haven't rebuilt
and we even have to rebuild, youknow, our social connections,
our dreams and aspirations, our,our, our dreams and aspirations
are all of these things went,got buried and went by the
wayside, and we need to reclaimthem and and bring them forward
into our lives again and maybeeven rebuild our social
(45:40):
connections, because we had beenisolated from friends and
family by that person.
So we, we have a lot to do.
Mary (45:50):
Yeah Well, I like you talking about reigniting dreams,
because sometimes when we're ina situation for a certain
amount of time, it can be veryhard to even create those neural
connections again, that idea ofwhat's possible, and so that
can be another thing to journalabout.
You know, what do you envision?
Because that is sort of like asports psychology thing, and
(46:12):
envisioning yourself doing itmakes it more likely you're
going to be able to do it.
This situation can also helpgive hope and reset some of, I
think, that limbic, thatemotional system, that amygdala
(46:33):
reaction, because you'rethinking in terms of hopefulness
.
Shannon (46:38):
Absolutely.
Mary (46:39):
Yeah, well, this has been such a great conversation.
Like I said, I love being ableto talk to a fellow therapist
because we can really dig intosome things.
So tell everyone again wherethey can find you and what you
have to offer, please.
Shannon (46:54):
Okay, thanks so much for having me, mary, and I love
talking to fellow therapists too.
It's such a rich experience.
Sohealfromtoxicrelationshipscom is
my sort of a landing page formy coaching program.
I have group coaching but alsodo individual with men and women
.
I do a group for women and Ihave also my book is Out of the
(47:23):
Fog Into the Clear Journaling toHelp you Heal from Toxic
Relationships.
It's on Amazon and Kindle.
And the other thing is theYouTube channel Therapist Talks
Thrive Beyond Narcissism.
So there are lots of differenttypes of resources depending on
what people need.
(47:43):
I've tried to kind of cover allthe bases.
So if someone wants extraindividual help, I also have a
video series of in-depth videoswith my coaching program and
that's available to really helppeople dig deeply into it and do
(48:05):
individual coaching on top ofthat or group on top of that.
Mary (48:09):
Okay, lots of good stuff I'm going to link all of.
I'll link your website in theshow notes because I'm guessing
you can jump off from there toyour YouTube channel and your
find your book.
And I'm sure you can find yourbook on Amazon.
You know, the clearinghouse ofeverything.
So, yeah, so thanks again forbeing here, and I want to thank
(48:29):
everyone for listening.
Please take a few seconds togive me a quick rating, because
every time someone does that, ithelps me show up for other
people when they search for mytopics.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolets that you are.
Thank you.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey, violets, welcome to theshow.
First, a quick thank you to you, the listener.
I recently discovered that mypodcast is in the top 10% of all
(00:48):
podcasts currently, and thiscould not happen without all of
you responding, giving commentsand sharing your favorite
episodes.
So thank you.
Okay, I've worked in the mentalhealth world for over three
decades.
Most of that time was spent incollege student mental health.
I remember the first time Ifelt panic when a student sat in
(01:08):
my office and told me herdiagnosis.
I had never heard of it.
What did I miss?
But then I realized TikTok.
And now, between social mediaand AI, I see both the benefit
of people finding informationthat helps them make sense of
their challenges and theoversimplified, catchphrase-y
and, honestly, blatantlyinaccurate information related
(01:31):
to mental health.
Just the other day I saw a postabout a quote diagnosis that
doesn't exist.
Yet someone commented this isan actual diagnosis.
This sounds just like me.
About 10 years ago peoplestarted saying anyone with whom
they had a difficultrelationship was bipolar,
probably wrong.
(01:51):
Most recently, the diagnosis dujour for people in one's life
causing issues seem to often benarcissist Again, most likely
wrong.
According to a study in theJournal of Psychiatry, the
prevalence of lifetimenarcissistic personality
disorder was about 6.2%.
Rates are higher for men, butkeep in mind that this
(02:14):
percentage can vary depending onwhat study you read and how the
study is structured.
But based on how often peopleclaim an ex is a narcissist, the
percentage would be about 50%.
Now, that is not to diminishthe experience of those affected
by true narcissist.
It is just that human behavioris often more complex than a
(02:38):
label.
Okay, so here's the thing aboutdiagnoses they are very rarely
cut and dried.
Here's the thing aboutdiagnoses they are very rarely
cut and dried.
I have seen diagnoses in therecords of new clients that were
given by past practitionersthat made me shake my head in
puzzlement.
I didn't see any evidence forthat diagnosis.
The diagnoses, as well as thesymptoms, often evolve over time
(03:00):
, so each time a new DSMDiagnostic and Statistical
Manual which is what mentalhealth professionals use to
diagnose every time a new one isdeveloped, there's a lot of
debate.
It is not a quick process andoften criteria and names of
diagnoses change.
My guest today has made it partof her mission to educate people
(03:23):
about what narcissism truly isand how to help those affected
by the behaviors of bothnarcissists and those who may
not meet the criteria but whocontribute to a toxic
relationship.
Shannon Petrovich is atherapist coach, author and
YouTube creator specializing inhelping people deal with and
heal from narcissistic.
(03:44):
Specializing in helping peopledeal with and heal from
narcissistic, abusive and othertoxic relationships.
Her book is Out of the Fog Intothe Clear Journaling to Help
you Heal from ToxicRelationships.
She has a YouTube channel,therapist Talks Thrive Beyond
Narcissism, where she offersinsights, information and
strategies on a wide range ofmental health issues.
(04:05):
She takes a trauma-informed,strengths-based approach to help
people identify theirself-limiting old stories and
negative internal self-talk, tohelp them overcome
self-destructive relationshippatterns and become all they
were created to be.
Welcome to no Shrinking VioletShannon.
Shannon (04:23):
Thank you so much, mary , it's great to be here.
Mary (04:26):
Okay.
So I would love to dive intothe idea of toxic relationships
and boundaries from kind of atherapist to therapist angle.
It's really a delight to havesomeone on the show with me who
we can sort of have sometherapist speak.
So recently I followed someoneon Instagram.
She's recently exploded withfollowers and her messages
(04:51):
partly protect ourselves, butnot too much.
So we talk about protecting ourpeace and we have become so.
I'm gonna put educated inquotes, because working with
young people like they are somuch more knowledgeable now and
some of it's accurate, some ofit's not.
She is a therapist too, so Ithink sometimes things are
(05:15):
confusing.
It's like protect your peace,set your boundaries, but not too
much, or you won't havecapacity to deal with things.
So, first of all, why do youthink so many people struggle
now with what we call, we'll say, toxic relationships?
Shannon (05:30):
It is so big and complex it's hard to suss it out
and I like to keep it simpler.
I think it's really, reallyimportant that we look at first
the toxic relationship that wehave with ourselves, because
oftentimes we're always, we'relooking out there, we're focused
out there, we're sussing outand diagnosing everybody out
(05:52):
there and the truth of it isthat we bring with us a template
.
So Bessel van der Kolk, theBody, keeps the Score.
That's kind of my go-to andsomething I always recommend to
people.
My go-to and something I alwaysrecommend to people because he
talks about templates andoftentimes you'll hear people
(06:17):
mistakenly and rudely andhorribly say well, they're just
comfortable with abuse orthey're just comfortable in
toxic relationships.
They're always going to do that.
That makes me cringe because noone is comfortable with abuse
or toxic relationships.
But we do have a tendency tohave experiences in childhood
that are adverse events of anysort, them as stories, and we
(06:42):
bring those stories and thosetemplates with us and then they
do often align with people whoare not necessarily good for us.
We do tend to bring thatself-talk with us into our lives
so that if we have afrustration or a fear or a
mistake that we've made, we beatourselves mercilessly, we're
(07:04):
our own worst enemy, and so thatcan lead us to be more
accepting of, or resonant withsomebody else who beats us up
emotionally.
So those things are importantand we do bring those things
with us, and if we don't starton the inside, we are just going
(07:24):
to keep repeating thosepatterns.
So when we look at how we treatourselves, how we talk to
ourselves and then move fromthere outward, that helps us to
set boundaries in a reallydifferent way, and then that
boundary setting is more organic, it makes more sense.
It isn't just reactive,defensive and emotional, but
(07:46):
it's.
I'm coming from a centered,grounded place within myself and
I can take care of myself onthe outside too.
Mary (07:56):
Yeah Well, you said a couple things there, so I'm
making notes.
I don't want to forgetsomething.
But first of all, I want totalk a little more about the
word toxic, because I think wehave started to really overstate
things.
Some relationships are simplyunhealthy, and that's not to
downplay them, but toxic to meis it's such a strong word
(08:17):
Narcissism, such a strong word,but we started to take this huge
paintbrush and paint thesewords that are so what's the
word?
They're so severe.
So what is your thought onusing the word toxic?
Shannon (08:33):
Really good question and it is so important to
recognize.
We have weaponized so manywords in our social media
culture and it's reallyimportant to back up and look at
it more realistically, becausethere are relationships that are
unhealthy and then there arerelationships that are toxic.
The difference to me isunhealthy means my thoughts,
(08:59):
feelings, wants and needs aren'tbeing met or acknowledged or
heard or kept safe.
Toxic is when I am literallydying within this relationship,
emotionally, becoming justbankrupt.
Physically my health is goingdownhill, maybe my finances are
(09:22):
depleted and I'm heading towardsbankruptcy.
So that's toxic.
It's like it is killing you.
And when we look at our immunesystem and how the body does
keep the score, when we areflooded with stress hormones
over and over again all day,every day, we literally are
(09:42):
drinking poison and our body isbeing toxically affected by this
relationship.
So that's the difference.
You know, some things can bejust unhealthy, you're right.
Other things are literallykilling you.
Mm-hmm.
Mary (09:59):
So you talked about Bessel van der Kolk with the Body
Keeps the Score.
It might be a book people haveheard of, maybe not, but it's
really.
I'm going to simplify it in anamazing amount, but it's about
how our experiences are held inour body and we especially, I
think, in the West, we think ourbody is one thing, our mind is
(10:22):
another and even sometimes ourheart and our spirit are other.
So sometimes four things, butreally anything perpetrated upon
us or anything we experience,and I'm going to say I'll use
the word trauma, but alsotraumatic events.
And again, there we have, Ithink, a continuum.
Trauma is not necessarily, or atraumatic event is not
(10:45):
necessarily a severe trauma, butit affects us.
A loss, a loss of a pet, a lossof a loved one, a loss of a job
, and these are all things thatwe hold in our body.
And I think people well, fromwhere I sit, people don't
recognize that a lot of timesour physical ailments are a
manifestation of what hashappened to us emotionally.
Shannon (11:07):
Yeah, very definitely, and the information and the
research on it that Bessel andmany, many others have done is
really intriguing.
And the importance of readingbooks like that or noticing that
or talking about that, is thatit helps us to validate our
(11:28):
experience and to understand whywe are physically unhealthy as
a result of this relationship.
And I've had people come to mypractice and say, well, I have
anxiety and depression.
I'm like, okay, so then we talkabout their lives.
It's like, well, holy crap, I'dbe anxious and depressed if I
(11:49):
live with that person too.
Like, of course, but it isn'tthat you have this illness
called anxiety and depression.
It's that you live in thisincredibly unhealthy, toxic
environment where this person isdoing micro and macro
aggressions 24-7 and you feelbacked into a corner and you
(12:13):
grew up with that, so you don'tknow how to work yourself out of
it.
You're in a constant freezemode and so we have to look at
how that fight and so we have tolook at how that fight, flight
or freeze mechanism gets unstuck.
So that you know, we broughtthat with us from childhood.
Now we're living it and it'sstuck on screech and we're
(12:37):
constantly being flooded withthese poisons that our bodies
and our minds were not designedto take 24-7.
They were designed to take thatonce in a blue moon, when a
cheetah is chasing you down thejungle canopy, but that's it.
So we have to recognize itbecomes a physiological reality
(13:01):
that it can kill you, destroysyour immune system, it destroys
your functionality, yourresilience, your all of it.
Mary (13:12):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I think we don'talso recognize, sometimes
cognitively, what's happening.
So for we register microexpressions somewhere in our
body, you know, we know we readthat, but we don't always, it
doesn't always connect to ourbrain.
(13:33):
So sometimes we're like why amI so stressed out?
Why does this person, you know,create so much anxiety?
Well, somewhere in your body,probably your amygdala, which
has been trained to spotdifficulties, recognizes a
pattern.
And so when you're talkingabout this chronic stress and
what people don't reallysometimes understand is we are
(13:56):
made to experience stress andhave that sympathetic nervous
system response and thende-escalate.
The parasympathetic, whichcalms us down, is supposed to
get its turn.
But when we're in these chronicsituations we don't have that
ability a lot of times.
So it's like putting your carup on blocks and then slamming
(14:20):
your foot down on the gas.
It's like you're not gettinganywhere but you're just revving
your engine.
So when you see this in someone, how do you start to undo some
of that?
Shannon (14:34):
You know the education piece is just critical.
For starters, some of thevideos that I've done, and
certainly in my work, I say youknow, so you're done with the
toxic X and you still feelterrible.
And then talking about how wehave these three parts of our
(14:56):
brain and you're, you know, youkind of alluded to that, the
triune brain, and yes, there's alot of nuance around that, I'm
not going to get lost in theweeds.
But basically that fight,flight or freeze response.
Then the emotional brain whichfeeds that, sometimes positively
to calm it down, sometimesnegatively by ramping it up.
(15:16):
And then we have our rationalmind, no-transcript by fight,
(15:39):
flight or freeze, and then tocalm that down and then use our
rational mind.
So people will say I just feelcrazy, I think I've got
Alzheimer's, I think I can'tfunction anymore, I can't make
decisions.
That's true, that's literallytrue, because your rational mind
is offline when you areconstantly on screech.
(16:01):
So we have to calm down.
We have to notice the threeparts Calm down the amygdala by
finding safety within ourselvesand in our environment.
Calm down the emotionalreactivity which is feeding that
and teach it to calm it downinstead of ramp it up.
And then notice the rationalmind and in my book I talk about
(16:27):
how clarity is the first letterof clear, where you need to,
like take a rational inventoryof this relationship, of how
you're doing, how you've beensince you've been with this
person, what this looks likereally in concrete terms, what
everybody's telling you that youdon't want to hear and you're
(16:47):
arguing with, and so get thatclarity, write it down and make
a rational decision.
I need to get done with thisrelationship or I need to create
really good boundaries and seewhat happens, because sometimes
we haven't done that step yetand then that rational mind gets
online and then you can kind ofdrag the emotional mind along
(17:10):
because you're trauma bonded tothat person.
You're going to react to theirreactions to you, saying I don't
want to do this anymore, andthen they're going to bring out
know, bring out all the hooksand all the drama.
So you have to know, okay,that's going to happen.
I'm going to watch that circusfrom a distance.
(17:31):
I'm going to keep myself ontrack with the rational decision
I made and know that myemotional mind is going to go
crazy.
Even my alarm system that's allfaulty is going to go crazy,
but I'm going to do what I knowI need to do anyway.
Mary (17:50):
Yeah, I want to circle back on something too that's
sort of at the beginning of allof this, and that is we are
attracted to what we know.
So I recently visited somebodyat work and they work somewhere
where there's very strongchemical smell and it almost
knocked me over.
They don't smell it anymore.
So it's kind of like this ideaof olfactory fatigue.
(18:10):
You don't smell the scent ofyour own home because you're in
it all the time.
We don't have that perceptionanymore.
So I think, well, I rememberhaving some of my college
students and I loved workingwith them because they're just
sort of coming into this spacewhere they're very independent,
and they would say to me I keepattracting these same people.
(18:31):
Why does this happen?
And I said, well, it's like youlive in a city that is so noisy
and now you're trying to find aplace that's quiet and your
mind doesn't know what to dowith that quiet.
So I think we literally have tohelp them rewire that, because
they understand it's not healthy, but it's familiar and the
(18:55):
unfamiliar sometimes seemsscarier seems scarier.
Shannon (19:04):
Yes, and it's complicated, because one of the
things that Bessel talks aboutthat I think is extremely true
is, whatever we grow up with, itisn't just what happened, it's
how we storied it.
So you know, when people growup in chaos, some of the kids in
that home will become part ofthe wallpaper.
They decided that their bestdefense was just to be
(19:24):
completely invisible.
So that person is kind offrozen in their life and they
tend to be frozen in their livesand in all their relationships.
Then there might be another onewho you know acted out and was
very aggressive and very likeattention seeking in order to
survive.
So, and then there was anotherone who was placating and people
(19:48):
pleasing and peacekeeping.
Usually, the therapist end upbeing a therapist and often end
up being with people who wantsomebody who will placate them,
who will people-please them andwho will peace-keep them.
And that was one of my earliestvideos was called the Narcissist
(20:12):
and the Empathic Person aTragically Perfect Match, and it
is that we resonate with peoplewe can save and placate and
peacekeep, somebody who wantsthat in us instead of somebody
who fulfills us and is an equalpartner.
So we resonate with that.
(20:34):
They resonate with that becausethey're like, oh heck, yeah, I
want that, yeah, and so it'sthis perfect enmeshment.
That is really hard to breakand you know, I'll typically
hear somebody say I love them.
Well, you're attached to them.
But let's talk about what loveis, and you know, love is
(20:59):
patient and kind and caring andnot boastful and not selfish,
and it's a person who sees youand keeps you safe emotionally.
They care about your thoughts,feelings, wants and needs, those
basic basic things.
(21:19):
And if you talk to somebodyabout that and they go, nope,
nope, nope, nope, nope nope,nope, nope, nope nope, that
isn't love, it's attachment, andthat's fine.
But let's call it what it is,because that isn't love.
Mary (21:37):
I think, because we paint love as and you know you
mentioned narratives in yourinformation like how and that's.
I talk about that all the timethese negative narratives or
what we tell ourselves and Ithink society paints love as
this topsy-turvy, really intense.
You know it's all about.
You know you meet somebody andit's always love at first sight
(21:59):
and you know it's sometimesthese ups and downs and fights
and yes, there's ups and downs.
Always love at first sight andyou know it's sometimes these
ups and downs and fights and,yes, there's ups and downs but
love doesn't typically hurt.
Often it doesn't make youabandon yourself.
It's not unsettling, but Ithink we get so used to this
idea of it's supposed to feelthis way that we're not sure how
(22:20):
to find something different.
Shannon (22:24):
Especially if we grew up looking at that and that was
our role model, then wedefinitely don't have a
perspective that keeps us safeand we do tend to set ourselves
up for relationships that areunhealthy or even toxic.
And again, what's important isthat we recognize that, we step
(22:48):
back from it.
We recognize, well, I wouldnever speak to somebody that way
, I would never treat someonethat way, I would never hurt
someone that way, and I need tostop allowing that from someone
else and stop doing it to myself, because the other weird thing
is that we train ourselves.
You talked about the subtlethat we're reading everybody and
(23:13):
all those subtle nuances.
Well, what's amazing is thatpeople who are very
self-centered are veryself-absorbed, don't care about
your thoughts, feelings, wantsand needs, only care about their
own and believe in their heartand soul that those are the only
ones that do matter yours don't.
(23:35):
Those people do a lot of thesesubtle microaggressions and also
the macroaggressions, but theywill use the least amount of
aggression or tantrum, if youwill to get the response they
want, and so they're going toteach you I don't like that, I
(23:59):
do like this, I like it when youdo this, I don't like it when
you do that, and it's a lot ofdifferent things, like isolating
you.
They'll throw a little minitantrum when you want to go
spend time with your family oryour friends Well, I guess you
don't care about me, like I careabout you, or they'll ghost you
for a day, or you know.
So all these different nuancedthings train you to then train
(24:24):
yourself, because this lovebombing feels so good, so you
want to get back to that andthey're always giving you these
little messages about how youcan fix that and make it back to
that, which isn't even true oraccurate and it's all a ruse.
So the really dangerous part isthat we train ourselves, so
(24:47):
they've set that in motion, butthen we take it on and we have
to undo all that damage becausewe have to recognize I can't fix
that, I can't change them, I'vedone everything, been as
perfect as I could be, andthat's just sick.
That's just not what I need tobe doing in a relationship.
Mary (25:09):
Yeah, yeah, I think we sometimes need to earn love and,
yeah, you're right, certainpeople teach us here's how you
earn the A and they mold us andwe allow that.
So I want to talk a littleabout this idea of wanting to
have a label for something andpeople sort of throwing this
narcissist label onto people.
(25:32):
So can you tell us a little bitabout what really it is to be a
narcissist?
And maybe also we don't want todiscount that there are a lot
of people that recognize that itis perhaps to the level of
toxicity their relationship.
However, there might not be thelabel.
(25:52):
We don't know what the label is.
But, yeah, could we start withwhat really is narcissism and
then expand however you feellike you need to from that?
Shannon (26:03):
narcissism and then expand however you feel like you
need to from that.
Yeah, and that's so importantbecause it has become so
weaponized.
You know, one of my first jobswas at a battered women's
shelter and we never talkedabout narcissism, we just talked
about abuse.
But the essence of a narcissistis that they don't have a solid
internal sense of self.
It's all an external shell.
I talk about in one of myvideos, the narcissistic
(26:26):
collapse which I use the analogyof a hot air balloon.
If you don't pump that hot airballoon with hot air all the
time, it implodes and then itexplodes.
And that's very much like whata narcissist is like.
They have this kind of emptysense of self that's just not
(26:46):
well formed, it's not a solidsense of who you are.
If you think about people whoare sort of have that emptiness
and they have to be constantlypumped up and have to be
constantly sort of propped upand when they're not, then they
(27:07):
implode and explode and you see,that kind of behavior that
happens in that extreme isnarcissistic trait and a very
narcissistic trait.
Um, I think when we feel goodabout ourselves, when we know
who we are, we know ourcharacter, we know that we kind
(27:28):
of respect and like those valuesand qualities in ourselves.
We don't have to boast and wedon't have to be puffed up and
we don't need everybody to payattention to us all the time.
We don't have to boast and wedon't have to be puffed up and
we don't need everybody to payattention to us all the time.
We don't have to take up allthe air in the room.
That's just not a thing.
So I think you can sense itwhen you look at it that way.
(27:51):
In essence, their thoughts,feelings, wants and needs matter
and yours don't.
They don't take responsibilityfor their actions.
They have a very superficialview of people, of themselves.
So they are all aboutappearances, money, status, and
(28:11):
they don't look at the deepercharacter qualities.
They're very dishonest, they'revery non-empathic.
They can tell you what you wantto hear and not mean it.
So you have to look at theiractions.
They can say how empathic theyare, but then they turn around
and share a story about howfunny it was when someone got
really, really emotionally orphysically hurt.
(28:34):
So noticing all these things,it's really important.
Behavior speaks louder thanwords and we have to recognize
that and they will.
When they get disappointed orupset or mad.
They go right for the jugular.
They're not a hey, we need totalk about this.
They bring up your deepest,darkest, most painful place in
(28:59):
your heart and soul and theythrow it in your face and they
blow up.
You know they don't haveconversations, they drop
grenades in the room and that iskind of another thing that you
can notice and go huh that's notgood.
Mary (29:19):
Well and you bring up a good point is sometimes the
barometer is what I treatsomeone that I love like this
and that can help you step backand, you know, be able to be a
tiny bit more objective.
So you're talking aboutsomething that I want to kind of
tease apart, something becauseI recently did a mini episode on
sociopaths and also was a gueston a show where I talked about
(29:43):
this and I had somebody respondto me when I talked about
sociopaths a little bit, callingme out that they're people too,
and by saying they, it sort ofmakes this boundary between you
know, the people that are normaland sociopaths.
So first I think and you cansort of debate this with me I
(30:06):
think we get muddied when we tryto think what's a sociopath,
what's a narcissist, what's apsychopath, and even experts in
those areas don't know that.
The tests to determine it arevery widely.
But I think the other part ofthat is understanding, and this
goes back to the labels.
We don't need to label someoneto know that we feel crappy when
(30:32):
we try to have a relationshipwith them.
So I just want to put a littleasterisk on that because I think
, as we're talking that, whenwe're saying as therapists, they
, some people look at that andsay, well, you're being
insensitive because they'repeople.
And now there are memoirswritten by sociopaths which I've
just read too.
It's very, very interestingbecause it comes from a place of
(30:54):
saying I've been misunderstoodmy whole life and, yes, I get
that.
But I think you and I both knowthat very rarely do true people
with true antisocialpersonality disorder or
narcissistic personalitydisorder.
They often don't end up intherapy, and there's a reason
for that Right.
Shannon (31:17):
And the diagnostic stuff?
You're right.
A diagnosis is only a way todescribe a cluster of symptoms
and so people think that it'sgot some magical aha, and it
really isn't, it's muddy, and itreally isn't it's muddy.
Typically people have thesetraits and those traits.
(31:40):
They can have an underlyingmood disorder that then they
have the personality disorder ortraits.
Also, it can be mild, moderateor severe, and in the severe
range you have a lot of delusionand that's really important.
So when you are looking atsomeone who seems to have a
personality disorder, you alsowant to look at the level of
(32:04):
delusion.
Like they, even in the, in theface of evidence, they will not
come off of their belief, nomatter what you know, you can
say you know you wereresponsible for doing A, b or C.
Or you said A, b or C andthey're like nope, did not.
(32:25):
And no matter what evidence youbring to bear, they don't
believe you and they don'tchange.
That's a little over on thisside, a little over on this side
.
The delusion, sociopathy, reallythe dividing line is do they
(32:46):
gain joy from hurting people oranimals or do they lack empathy
to the degree that they canreally hurt somebody?
And or even, you know, takeaway their rights, so that
oppression or that trappingsomeone, and so that's where
(33:08):
that can become sort of overthat line into sociopathic, when
someone traps somebody to thedegree that they really don't
believe that that person has aright to exist outside of that
relationship with them.
And I've seen that a lot oftimes too, and you're right,
people with narcissism andsociopathy only show up in
(33:30):
therapy with a partner, and theyonly show up as long as you're
not taking them to task, andthen they bolt.
Mary (33:41):
Yeah.
Shannon (33:42):
And they say that you sucked as a therapist.
Mary (33:46):
Which, thank you.
That might be a compliment.
Sometimes it means you'reeffective, right, that's right
it means you told the truth.
Yeah, and I think what a lot ofpeople don't know is laypersons
is a personality disorder isconsidered enduring and whereas
something like major depressivedisorder or generalized anxiety
disorder, those can be transient.
(34:08):
I mean, they're quite differentand we used to when we did our
diagnosis we would put apersonality disorder like
borderline narcissistic puts apersonality disorder like
borderline narcissistic,antisocial, they would go on to
a different quote axis, which wedon't do that anymore, but it
was to show here's an enduringthing and it's kind of like
saying someone prefers dogs tocats, they prefer these certain
(34:33):
foods, they have even somethinglike sometimes I a certain eye
color.
There are certain things partof your enduring traits that
would be very difficult tochange and I think that's
sometimes where people and again, if they're self-diagnosing a
lot of times I think people nowself-diagnose I'm a sociopath
because it's hard for me tounderstand someone else.
(34:55):
Well, that could be a lot ofother things me to understand
someone else.
Well, that could be a lot ofother things.
So I think you know,understanding that when you have
someone in your life that, asyou're saying, you can say
here's exactly what happened.
You could even I don't evenknow you could have a video and
it'd be like yeah, no, that's AI, you didn't.
You know that level of denialis not changeable.
(35:16):
You know that level of denialis not changeable.
And so I think, understandingthat sometimes just because you
love someone, you can love themand recognize that they had past
trauma, whatever.
That still doesn't mean youneed to stay in that
relationship.
Shannon (35:34):
Right, yeah, and it's so crucial to make that
(35:55):
distinction.
You can love someone to waituntil the love goes away or the
empathy for them goes awaybefore you leave.
You make a rational decision toleave to save yourself, and
that's just super important.
But, yeah, the diagnostic stuffis really muddy and we just
have to not get into diagnosingpeople that we don't know, that
(36:19):
we don't, and it doesn't putthem in a box that they can
never get out of.
So here's the thing again,circling back around to starting
from the inside out.
When you recognize that youmight be in a toxic relationship
what I always encourage peopleto do unless there's physical
violence that you start tonotice your thoughts, feelings,
(36:46):
wants and needs and start tonotice all the ways that you
placate people, please and peacekeep, and you start to do it
differently.
So that looks like no, I don'treally want to go out tonight.
I think I'll spend the night inmy jammies and watching movies
and then seeing what they do,watching movies and then seeing
(37:09):
what they do.
Or I'm not going to listen toyou when you start to escalate
like that.
If you want to calm down, wecan have a conversation later,
or I'm going to head homebecause this just doesn't feel
good.
It feels like I'm not heard.
And when people do that,sometimes the other person goes
oh, I didn't know, that botheredyou because you've never said
anything.
True, you know, if I've spentthe relationship being a
(37:32):
placater, they don't know how Ifeel, they don't know what I
think or want or need yeah,Valid.
And so there are somerelationships that I've worked
with where you would think thiswas absolutely unresolvable,
where you would think this wasabsolutely unresolvable and yet
(37:56):
that person loved that person somuch that they noticed,
recognized, changed theirbehavior and became an equal
partner who cherished thatperson instead of being a bully
and a selfish kind of person.
So we don't really know untilwe show up fully.
And you know, if you're new ina relationship, make sure that
you're showing up fully, Makesure that you are not just going
(38:18):
along for the ride, but you'resaying what you think, feel,
want and need and you'restanding up for yourself and
you're watching what that persondoes.
Mary (38:28):
If they throw little tantrums and little
microaggressions and littleghostings and all that garbage,
walk away sooner than laterthink, when we're getting into
especially new romanticrelationships, we think so much
about you know first date, whatshould I wear, how should I act?
(38:53):
And again, I worked with youngpeople.
They would say those things I'mlike, you don't act, you are
you.
And then you're going to reallyfind out if someone cares about
you.
I mean, the most powerful thingto me is when somebody sees you
and loves you.
So when you act or you placateor you go along, when does that
end?
And it sort of segues into andthis is often women do the
(39:14):
invisible labor of arelationship and it makes me
think.
And this is very simple, but Iwas recently remarried, within
the last three years, and Irealized I had this idea that I
was supposed to plan dinner andI love cooking, but I hated that
pressure.
So the one day I said you know,I feel like I always have to
(39:35):
plan dinner because what are youtalking about?
I thought you liked it.
And so I think giving ourselvespermission, especially as women
, that no matter how long we'vebeen in a relationship, if we're
feeling discontent or it'suneven or there's a behavior we
don't like and this was not hisbehavior, this was all me and
what I was putting on myself,but I think you find out a lot.
(39:57):
So if you put your foot downand you truly have someone that
has a serious diagnosis, they'regoing to try to maintain the
status quo, they're going todeny, they're going to push back
.
It's really good informationyou get from that.
Shannon (40:16):
Exactly, and that's why I always say boundaries always
work.
Because people say, well, youdon't understand, Boundaries
don't work with this person.
No, they always work.
They either get a differentresponse from that person and
their relationship changes, orthey give you the information
you need to back away andprotect yourself differently.
Because if that person doesn'trespond in a positive way when
(40:41):
you do talk about what you think, feel, want and need, If you
need a little space and thisrelationship's moving too
quickly and they have a littletantrum and ghost you and do all
that stuff, or you know biggerstuff, like, yeah, I'm going to
go spend time with my family,and they're like, well, that's
just unacceptable, they're notgood enough for you.
(41:02):
You know all those games thatbecomes.
If you placate that, then youare setting that template for
the relationship and then therelationship down the line is a
mess and you can clean it up andthen see what happens.
But you have to emotionallystep back and watch that circus.
(41:24):
Oh wow, he bounced or shebounced because women do this
too.
I'm never going to say that inthat way, because I've seen lots
and lots of men inrelationships with toxic and
narcissistic women.
Oh wow, she or he bounced fromanger to tears, back to anger,
(41:49):
over to guilt, back to anger,over to tears, again, like it's
this whack-a-mole thing.
Mary (41:59):
And you're just sitting there going all right, good
information.
Shannon (42:01):
Don't want to play this game anymore.
All I said was blah, blah, blah, and they're freaking out Weird
.
Mary (42:09):
Yeah, no, that's a really good point, because some of that
you know the women and crying,you know, is it's sort of that.
We a little bit againstsocialization, but I think men
have been socialized.
When a woman cries like youtake care of it.
But when you can step back andbe like what is this pattern?
You know what is happening hereand I think boundaries are very
(42:30):
hard and very confusing and Ithink many of us believe if I
set a boundary, the otherperson's behavior is going to
change.
And that's not always what Imean.
I think I tend to say whatoutcome do you want?
If you're doing something toget an outcome of a behavior
change in another person, youcan't control that.
(42:53):
But if you're setting aboundary because you need to
create some space for yourselfto be able to do what you're
saying like, look at thisrelationship from a little bit
of an objective eye, if you can,even if it means, I think,
writing stuff down.
Here's what happened.
I felt this way, but this isthe behavior I noticed.
So you've given so many goodlittle tidbits and gems today.
(43:18):
So let's say somebody'slistening, because we know how
often when somebody's deep insomething, how hard it is for
them to like where do I evenstart?
So, aside from finding atherapist, which again can seem
daunting, but if somebody islistening, what?
How would you say they canstart to create this shift for
(43:38):
themselves.
Three to five things that maybethey can start to focus on to
slowly kind of create a shiftand a change in this situation
for themselves.
Shannon (43:49):
Great question, and I think the first step is really
to and I am a big proponent ofjournaling.
That's why my book is all aboutjournaling and lots and lots of
prompts to guide people throughthis.
Originally, when I did mychannel, I didn't want to write
a book.
I wanted to share informationand strategies.
(44:12):
And then it became obvious thatI wanted to write that book to
help people who aren't going tohave access to a therapist, or
even who do, but want us, as anadjunct to to, really walk
through the process of healingfrom the inside out, of noticing
all of the games that peopleplay and not letting those
(44:35):
control you anymore.
So I think, journaling aboutwhat kind of relationship do I
have within my own head?
I would never speak that way toa friend.
Why do I allow myself to speakthat way to myself every time I
have a hard time?
And starting to become your ownbest friend, starting to notice
the things that are going on inyour relationships, starting to
(44:58):
notice what you think, feel,want and need and start to stand
up for that.
See what happens journal aboutthat.
See what happens Journal aboutthat.
And then you know, graduallytake your life back and rebuild.
A lot of times, when people comeout of a toxic relationship,
(45:19):
they wander right back into one,because they haven't rebuilt
and we even have to rebuild, youknow, our social connections,
our dreams and aspirations, our,our, our dreams and aspirations
are all of these things went,got buried and went by the
wayside, and we need to reclaimthem and and bring them forward
into our lives again and maybeeven rebuild our social
(45:40):
connections, because we had beenisolated from friends and
family by that person.
So we, we have a lot to do.
Mary (45:50):
Yeah Well, I like you talking about reigniting dreams,
because sometimes when we're ina situation for a certain
amount of time, it can be veryhard to even create those neural
connections again, that idea ofwhat's possible, and so that
can be another thing to journalabout.
You know, what do you envision?
Because that is sort of like asports psychology thing, and
(46:12):
envisioning yourself doing itmakes it more likely you're
going to be able to do it.
This situation can also helpgive hope and reset some of, I
think, that limbic, thatemotional system, that amygdala
(46:33):
reaction, because you'rethinking in terms of hopefulness
.
Shannon (46:38):
Absolutely.
Mary (46:39):
Yeah, well, this has been such a great conversation.
Like I said, I love being ableto talk to a fellow therapist
because we can really dig intosome things.
So tell everyone again wherethey can find you and what you
have to offer, please.
Shannon (46:54):
Okay, thanks so much for having me, mary, and I love
talking to fellow therapists too.
It's such a rich experience.
Sohealfromtoxicrelationshipscom is
my sort of a landing page formy coaching program.
I have group coaching but alsodo individual with men and women
.
I do a group for women and Ihave also my book is Out of the
(47:23):
Fog Into the Clear Journaling toHelp you Heal from Toxic
Relationships.
It's on Amazon and Kindle.
And the other thing is theYouTube channel Therapist Talks
Thrive Beyond Narcissism.
So there are lots of differenttypes of resources depending on
what people need.
(47:43):
I've tried to kind of cover allthe bases.
So if someone wants extraindividual help, I also have a
video series of in-depth videoswith my coaching program and
that's available to really helppeople dig deeply into it and do
(48:05):
individual coaching on top ofthat or group on top of that.
Mary (48:09):
Okay, lots of good stuff I'm going to link all of.
I'll link your website in theshow notes because I'm guessing
you can jump off from there toyour YouTube channel and your
find your book.
And I'm sure you can find yourbook on Amazon.
You know, the clearinghouse ofeverything.
So, yeah, so thanks again forbeing here, and I want to thank
(48:29):
everyone for listening.
Please take a few seconds togive me a quick rating, because
every time someone does that, ithelps me show up for other
people when they search for mytopics.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolets that you are.
Thank you.
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My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com