March 20, 2025 • 51 mins
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Dr. Bella DePaulo challenges societal assumptions about singleness, revealing how many people are genuinely "single at heart" and thrive in this lifestyle not despite being single, but because of it.
• Being single at heart means feeling most authentic, comfortable, and fulfilled when living a single life
• Single people often maintain richer social connections with diverse people compared to coupled individuals
• The ability to flourish in solitude is a strength, not a deficiency or psychological problem
• Freedom is consistently cited as the greatest benefit of single life by those who are single at heart
• Some partnered people can score high on the "single at heart" scale and need space even in committed relationships
• Those who are single at heart need "the ones" (diverse social connections) rather than "the one" romantic partner
• Creating separate spaces within relationships can help those with single at heart tendencies thrive while partnered
• Being single at heart isn't about rejecting connection, but about living your most authentic life
Find Dr. Bella DePaulo's book "Single at Heart: The Power, Freedom, and Heart-Filling Joy of Single Life" on Amazon and major booksellers, and check out her TED Talk "What No One Ever Told You About People Who Are Single."
Referenced in the episode:
How to Be Alone by Sara Maitland
Follow me on Facebook and Instagram, and check out my website!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
I am beyond excited to talk tomy guest today.
I mentioned her work in my mostever downloaded episode to date
(00:48):
, episode eight, in which Italked with Marieke Nissley
James about living single afterdivorce.
I myself have lived most of myadult life as a single person.
Now I want to qualify thatbecause, while I may have spent
some of that time dating, Iidentified first and foremost as
single at heart.
(01:09):
While I knew I wanted a partnerfor adventures, I had always
been my first support,financially, intellectually and
emotionally.
Even in my first marriage, Iwas motivated much more by joy
and freedom than safety andsecurity, and that's something
we'll talk about more later inthe episode.
I'm now married for a secondtime, yet I still identify as
(01:31):
highly single at heart and thatmay sound eye-raising to some of
you, but I think you'llunderstand more what that means
by the end of this episode.
It may even resonate with you.
For me, time alone or withfriends is as much of a priority
as time with my partner.
I rarely get lonely, even afterspending days in solo pursuits.
(01:52):
I've traveled alone and goingto a movie or dinner alone
remains one of my favoritethings.
I knew this about myself beforeI got married and, as is
important in any partnership,communication, respect and care
for the other partner's natureis at the core of my marriage.
I'm so happy to share my showtoday with Dr Bella DiPaolo, her
(02:15):
latest book Single at Heart.
The Power, freedom andHeart-Filling Joy of Single Life
may still seem groundbreakingto some listeners.
Being single has historicallybeen colored as something to be
ashamed of, especially for women.
As with many gender-connectedconcepts, the terms for women
(02:36):
still single, especially after30, are often unflattering.
Things like spinster or oldmaid.
Yet single men are called stagsor lone wolves -- strong
masculine images, even inreferences, meant to be
derogatory, and often we assumesingle men didn't CHOOSE to
marry, while single womencouldn't find anyone TO marry.
(02:58):
Now, thankfully, I think theseideas are slowly changing.
Some of the stigma ofsingleness was reinforced by
society.
I mean laws made it necessaryfor women to be married to have
access to loans or otherfinancial supports, and although
a lot of that has changed, theidea of finding a mate and
settling down is still held upas the ideal.
(03:19):
People love love, and picturesof it and of couples on social
media often get more likes andpositive comments than any other
"achievement.
I think the popularity of myepisode with Marika on choosing
to live as a single woman afterdivorce signals that this is a
theme for many, many people,more than we might believe.
(03:42):
So today, Bella and I will bediscussing her research and
discoveries from her work withsingle people, and we will also
explore her thoughts on coupledpeople who have quite a high
dose of singleness of heart.
I'd love to contribute to thedestigmatization of singleness
overall, but also give those incommitted relationships some
(04:03):
idea how to navigate, maybe avacillating want to stay
connected to a partner whilehonoring some of the joys of
being in a relationship withyourself and the unique freedoms
this offers.
So let's get to it.
Bella DiPaolo, PhD, has alwaysbeen single and always will be.
The Atlantic calls her"America's foremost thinker and
(04:26):
writer on the single experience.
Her TEDx talk what no One EverTold you About People who Are
Single has been viewed more than1.7 million times.
She is the author of one of mynew favorite books Single at
Heart the Power, freedom andHeart-Filling Joy of Single Life
, which, by the way, I think hasbeen translated into six
(04:47):
languages so far.
So welcome to the show, bella.
I have really been lookingforward to talking with you.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (04:54):
Thank you so much for that wonderful
introduction and for inviting meto be on your show.
Mary (05:01):
Well, I think we have a lot to talk about, so I'm just
going to jump in.
And so, of course, I have notonly read your book, but once I
read your book, then I wanted toknow more.
So I've heard you on some otherpodcasts, and one of the things
that I love is sort of the wayyou got into what you're really
focusing on and have focused onfor a few decades, because I
(05:25):
think it's interesting how someof the most impactful choices in
life come from unexpectedinspiration, like it's a
combination of our ownexperience and maybe seeing it
reflected in the world.
So can you share a little bitabout how you walked into this
world of researching and being achampion for singleness?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (05:50):
Sure, so I have always been single, like
you said in your introduction,and I never really had a
research interest for me, it wasjust something about my life.
Then, in December of 1992, Iwas 39 years old, it was near
the holidays and somebody wroteinto an advice columnist in my
(06:11):
local paper and she said thatshe had recently been widowed
and the holidays were so hardfor her and how was she ever
going to get through them.
And the advice columnist had alot to say, but I underlined one
statement which was rememberthat one is a whole number.
(06:37):
Now I wasn't feeling like anincomplete person because I was
single, but I thought it wasinteresting that this person
needed to be reassured that onewas a whole number and that the
advice columnist thought to saythat to her.
(06:58):
And so that was the start of myacademic or research interest in
being single and how people whoare single are perceived and
understood.
So I started this folder and Iwrote the number 1 on the tab.
This is 1992, before everythingwas online and I put that
(07:22):
clipping in the folder and thenI started collecting all sorts
of other things relevant to howsingle people are portrayed in
the media.
I don't know if you rememberthe Kathy cartoons who was the
single woman who was alwayssaying, " which I did not think
was the most favorable portrayalof a single person.
(07:44):
But whatever, it was irrelevantto my project and I was finding
that in prestigiouspublications there was this kind
of condescending attitudetowards single people and that
really bothered me.
At first this was all private.
I didn't tell anyone that I wasdoing this and then at some
(08:07):
point I decided okay, I have tosee how other single people feel
about this.
So I was at a social event and Iwent up to someone who I didn't
know very well, but I knew shewas single, and I started
telling her about some of theexperiences I had had as a
(08:28):
single person that I thoughtwere because I was single.
So, for example, the person whoorganized the class schedule
where I was teaching at theUniversity of Virginia said that
she wanted me to come in atnight to teach because it would
be too hard for the marriedfaculty to come in, they didn't
(08:51):
even have kids yet.
Or another example is that Iwould socialize with my
colleagues during the week, youknow, we'd leave from work and
go out to lunch together, butthen, when the weekend came, the
couples would socialize witheach other and they wouldn't
include me.
So was that because I wassingle and they think, you know,
(09:14):
they're couples and they get tohave their married couple club?
Or was it because they justdidn't like me and during the
week they kind of felt obligatedto include me because it was
theOkay, so I approached this woman
at this social event and I tellher some of those stories and I
said do you have any exampleslike that?
(09:35):
Have you ever been treated thatway?
And she did so.
She started telling me herexperiences.
Then somebody else joined usand he started telling us his
experiences.
Then somebody else joined usand he started telling us his
experiences.
Then someone else, then someoneelse.
We had this circle of peopleand we talked the whole night.
(09:56):
I went home and I startedwriting notes.
I tried to remember everythingthose people told me and I wrote
for two hours.
Then the next morning, I wokeup, turned on my email and I had
these notes from people saying,oh, and another thing.
They remembered something,something I wanted to really
(10:29):
focus on and do research on andwrite about.
But I didn't want to just writefor an academic audience,
because this was something thatresonated with people well
beyond the halls of academia,and so that was the start for me
(10:50):
.
Mary (10:50):
Wow.
Well, I think it's sointeresting because I always
think of this story when I'mthinking about or talking about
being single or even doingthings in the world that show
that you are single, or byyourself.
So I taught this course at acommunity college and it was
(11:11):
psychology of adjustment and Iwould tell my students stories
about and when we talked aboutsort of individual and yourself
in a relationship, I would talka lot about what is it to really
know yourself?
And I said you know, I go outand I'll go to dinner by myself.
And they were mortified that Iwould sit there by myself.
(11:36):
I said, well, I take a book.
Or I said, sometimes I'll go tomovies by myself.
And they couldn't, I wouldnever do that.
And I said, well, why would younever do it?
And they often would say thingslike well, people think you're
a loser and I'm like you know,like it's that idea, that simple
idea that if you go somewherealone you don't have anybody to
(12:00):
go with you, and so often that'sfalse, right.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (12:09):
It is, you know, my first time I taught a
course on being single.
I had an assignment and I saidthat they should go out for a
meal by themselves, and theyloved the idea.
So they upped the ante and theysaid not only are we going to
go out for a meal, but it has tobe dinner, not just, you know,
lunch or brunch or whatever, andno books, no distractions, just
(12:31):
be there.
So that was really.
I just loved my students forthat.
They were so into it.
But what you were saying aboutwhat people assume.
So the very first study I everdid was to see how people
perceive what they actuallythink of people who are dining
(12:51):
alone were either by themselvesor with other people.
And then we brought thepictures to a shopping mall and
we asked people what theythought of the various pictures
(13:14):
and why was that person?
If they were alone, why werethey eating alone or what did
you think of them?
And what about the people whoare together?
And it was fascinating.
Overall, on average, there wereno differences between how
people perceived the peoplealone and the people together.
(13:40):
Now that doesn't mean that therewere were negative and positive
, about both the single peopleand the people such as those who
look like romantic couples.
So here's some examples.
So sure, some people seeingsomeone dining alone would say
something negative, but moreoften they'd say, oh, she just
(14:03):
wants some time to herself, orhe looks contented.
Or my favorite one, somebodysaid he looks secure.
I love that, yeah.
And then same thing for thecouples.
They might say, oh, you know,they wanted to have dinner
together, but then they'd saynegative things, like well,
(14:24):
they're just together becausethey have to be, they don't have
anything to say to each other.
You know, they just feltobligated, and so it was just
such an eye-opening set ofresults that people think, oh,
you know, the single person isgoing to be seen as a loser, the
couple is going to be seen asso cool, or the group of people,
(14:47):
group of friends.
That's not what happened.
It was mixed about both.
(15:08):
So I think part of that too andof course this is certainly
something that's in your book isthe idea that when you feel
quite content by yourself and Ican sort of verify this as a
therapist people think, well, isthere something wrong with me?
Because I don't.
I'm not drawn to this.
You know, this thing that wehold up is the ideal that
(15:28):
there's this one person.
You should find this person,and so people can sort of fool
themselves that well, if I'mreally content and I can go do
my thing or I can spend time insolitude and not feel lonely,
does that mean I'm?
And then they would assign am Icommitment phobic, or you know,
(15:50):
is there something fromchildhood that I haven't
overcome?
And that's not it.
Right, and this is something that really
gets to me and I haveexperienced it over and over.
I'm not a therapist, I'm aresearcher, but people will
write to me out of the blue,people I don't know.
They'll send me an email or,occasionally, a handwritten card
(16:11):
and they'll say something likeI love my single life, I love
the solitude, I love the freedom, I love spending time with the
people I care about.
And then in the next sentencethey'll say do you think there's
something wrong with me that Ilike being single?
And it is so gobsmackingbecause here they have what
(16:37):
everybody craves, a life thatthey love, and yet, because it's
single life, they think thatmeans there's something wrong
with them.
And that's one of themisconceptions I am bound and
determined to challenge with mysingle heart book, because I
(16:59):
think that a lot of what getsframed as normal and good and
natural and superior, which iskind of, you know, being with
people, whether it's justsocializing all the time or
having the one, that'snormalized and people who like
(17:20):
their solitude more or or likebeing single, are stigmatized
and questioned about whetherthere's something wrong with
them, and I think that thatreally gets some really
important things wrong.
For example, I think that theability to flourish in solitude
(17:45):
is a real strength.
That's not a weakness.
That's a wonderful thing If youcan be on your own and find
that time alone to be restful orproductive or good for
creativity or spirituality orwhatever you like to do in your
(18:05):
alone time, instead of thestereotype of people being alone
, being lonely, it's going to bejust the opposite.
If you flourish in solitude,you are very unlikely to be
lonely, and that's one of thekey things about people who are
(18:25):
single at heart they love theirsolitude.
Now, that doesn't mean theydon't also like socializing,
having friends and all the rest,but solitude doesn't scare them
.
They value it, they cherish it.
Mary (18:40):
Well, you have a whole chapter in your book on solitude
.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (18:44):
Yes.
Mary (18:45):
And there were so many quotes in there that resonated
with me, and we'll get into thismore because, as I mentioned,
I'm married.
But I'm going to tell you,Bella, I scored a 12 on your
quiz.
That's pretty good.
So for people that don't knowand I don't know, I didn't find
this anywhere online, but inyour book, at the end of chapter
(19:05):
one, you have, I think it's 14or 15 questions, right?
Yes, 14, yes, yep.
And so you answer thosequestions to sort of determine
are you more single at heart?
And it's really interestingbecause I know you pointed out
in your book the question sortof about the idea that you can
(19:27):
do most things like you.
I forget what the exactquestion was, but that's always
something that I felt like oh, Ican, whatever comes up, I'm
going to be able to handle, youknow.
And yeah, and there are certainthings that I think it makes
you think about it in adifferent way, but I loved that
there was a whole chapter onsolitude, because when I'm by
(19:50):
myself, I don't think of that asbeing alone.
This might be a little weird tosome people.
In my mind, I'm spending timewith myself.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (19:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's an interesting wayto think about it, and, in fact
, people who like being aloneare more authentic.
They're more likely to beliving according to who they
really are, and I think that'simportant too, that if you don't
(20:21):
like being alone, sometimes Ithink what that means is you
don't like being face-to-facewith yourself.
There's something about yourselfthat you're uncomfortable with.
Maybe you're not living yourmost authentic life, but you're
(20:42):
living the life somebody elsethinks you should be living.
When you feel that peace oreven joyful about the life you
have chosen, then it's going tobe much more fulfilling to be
(21:03):
face to face with yourself.
Mary (21:05):
Yeah, I really agree with that, and I don't know the exact
quote, of course, in the book,but somebody talked about that
they are better around otherpeople if they can spend the
time they need by themselves.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (21:22):
Isn't that great?
And you can find that sentimentin other places too.
Sarah Maitland wrote a bookcalled how to Be Alone, and she
also talked about how she is abetter friend.
She's better in personally whenshe's had her full measure of
solitude, and that was what theperson in my Single at Heart
(21:45):
book was saying as well.
Mary (21:49):
That's really true for me that I need to have a certain
amount of time in solitude,because it sort of helps me kind
of regulate my thinking.
It just gets me back down tokind of a grounded state.
I don't want to sound too kindof woo about it, but it sort of
renews me, and so I think wethink of that sort of trait as
(22:13):
introversion.
Now, first I'm going to say Ithink a lot of people have a
misunderstanding of what beingintroverted means.
But do you find that that is acommonality that a lot of people
that do have sort of this peacewith being single tend to be
more introverted?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (22:35):
people who told me their life stories.
More of them were introvertedthan extroverted, but there were
extroverts and there werepeople who also considered
themselves somewhere in between.
So, yes, it tilts towardsintroversion, but it's not the
same thing.
(22:56):
And people who study solitudeas their scholarly interest and
expertise have found thatappreciating solitude is not
only something that's true ofintroverts, that even extroverts
who like being with people alot of the time, can still like
(23:19):
having some time to themselves,and that what really matters is
authenticity.
So are you living your mostauthentic life?
Are you being true to yourself?
And the people who are beingtrue to themselves are most
likely to be at ease in solitudeor, even better than that, they
(23:45):
savor their solitude.
Mary (23:47):
Yeah Well, so to take a little turn now to another
chapter.
That was one of my favorites.
You have a whole chapter onfreedom.
So what I found interesting?
So in my episode eight I talkedto my friend Marieke, who has
two kids, was married but shegot divorced, dated a little and
then she realized she truly washappier as a single person and
(24:10):
I asked her what did she likethe most about being single?
And she said freedom.
And I was like absolutely.
That was in Bella's book.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (24:21):
Yes, in fact, every person who was single at
heart and shared their storywith me when I asked them what
they liked about being single,every one of them in some way or
another, said they loved theirfreedom.
What might come to mind?
First, that you can arrangeyour schedule any way you want.
(24:43):
If you live alone, you can havea place that reflects who you
really are and it's decoratedthe way you want, and you have
your own sleep schedule and youeat what you want when you want,
and when you put something inthe refrigerator at night it's
still there the next day, andall those kinds of things.
But it's also bigger things,like financial freedom, getting
(25:06):
to decide how much to save andto spend, and really big things
like making big life-changingdecisions without worrying about
what a romantic partner wouldthink or if they want to do it.
And I did that myself when, inthe year 2000, I moved from the
(25:32):
University of Virginia on theEast Coast all the way over to
UC Santa Barbara on the WestCoast.
Now, it was supposed to be justa one-year sabbatical, but I
loved it out here.
You know.
The sunshine and the progressivevalues and the people were just
so interesting and thoughtfuland it was getting toward the
(25:57):
time when I was supposed to goback because it was supposed to
be just for one year, and I waswalking the beach with somebody
else who had also been at theUniversity of Virginia and now
is at UCSB and stayed there, andI said I just don't want to go
back.
And she said I just don't wantto go back.
And she said, well, don't.
And of course you know I'msingle, I could do that, and so
(26:21):
I just upended my entire lifethat was based on the East Coast
, moved to the West Coast, andthat is also when I decided to
commit to putting the study ofsingle people at the center of
my professional life.
And you know, imagine trying todo that with a spouse.
(26:45):
Okay, you know, we're allsettled here in Charlottesville,
virginia, but now I moved toSanta Barbara, california, and I
don't have a job there, and youdon't have a job there, and our
families are on the East Coastand yet on my own.
Mary (27:05):
Yeah, you didn't have to check with anybody.
So, yeah, so that idea offreedom, just to be able to make
those choices, that I think isoverwhelming to some people.
And so I, again, I often framethings in different ways because
I think about, if agonize over,maybe there's someone they
(27:26):
truly care about, a partner, andthey're feeling this pull
towards you know.
But I really feel happy bymyself.
I love this idea of freedom.
So it makes me think of so I'mgoing to go a little academic
(27:49):
for a second.
It makes me think of WilliamGlasser's choice theory.
So he talked about having fivebasic needs and those are our
motivations that determine howwe make a lot of our choices in
life.
So one of those is freedom.
Freedom is a big motivator forme.
I like being able to make myown choices, be autonomous.
(28:09):
But another one of those basicneeds he calls it survival, but
I'm going to call it safety andsecurity, so an idea of being
anchored to something.
So for some people in yoursituation, they would like being
able to talk that over with apartner right and decide
together and maybe even abdicatetheir own choice if that wasn't
(28:35):
the best for the couple or thepartnership.
So what are your thoughts onthis kind of thing?
Thinking about what motivatesus?
Do you think that might helpsome of these people that are?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (28:46):
There is so much either pressure to be
coupled or just the assumptionthat, of course, everyone wants
to be coupled, and that can makeit hard for people who really
(29:12):
thrive while being single tounderstand that, as the kids say
, being single at heart is athing you know.
There are people more than youmight ever imagine, who've lived
their best life their mostmeaningful, fulfilling life as a
single person, most meaningful,fulfilling life as a single
(29:37):
person.
And so the question is, or oneof the questions is how do you
know?
And I think one thing thatmatters is how you feel when
you're in a romanticrelationship.
So people who are in a romanticrelationship and it doesn't
work often think to themselves,well, that was just the wrong
(29:59):
person, or I'm not at the rightpoint in my life, I need to work
on myself.
And so they try again and again.
And what is really telling iswhen they find someone they do
love and who loves them, and itstill doesn't feel right.
(30:19):
And that is so telling becauseit's not about, oh, you met the
wrong person or you're at thewrong time in your life, or any
of that.
It's that single is who youreally are, that it's that
single is who you really are.
That's how you live your best,most fulfilling and authentic
(30:41):
life.
And single very important tounderstand does not mean alone
or isolated or unattached, eventhough people assume those
things.
In fact, single people ingeneral are more connected to
more different people, so theystay in touch with their friends
(31:01):
and neighbors and colleaguesand parents and relatives,
whereas people who get married,and research shows this when
people get married, they becomemore insular, so they become
more focused on their spouse.
They pay less attention to theirfriends, their parents, and you
(31:21):
know that doesn't mean everymarried person does that, but on
the average that's what happens.
So it's the single people whoare more connected to other
people, and so I think it'sreally unhelpful and actually
hurtful to have thesesocietal-wide assumptions that
(31:44):
everyone wants to be married orin a committed romantic
relationship and if they don't,they're just fooling themselves
or there's something wrong withthem.
We've got to get beyond that sopeople can live their best
lives.
And, of course, it's reallyimportant for people who are
(32:07):
themselves single at heart, butit's also important for the
people that they try to pair upwith, you know, because they
feel like, well, I should betrying to find the one, and so
they get into theserelationships and it's not fair
to the other person who probablyreally does want a committed
(32:29):
romantic relationship and is notsingle at heart.
Mary (32:33):
Right and that socialization, I think, is so
strong that sometimes it takessome time for people to really
be able to push that aside andlisten to their I call it their
essential nature as to whatactually makes them the happiest
.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (32:51):
Right, and I think what also helps is having
some validation, so knowing thatthere are other people like you
and that's one of the reasons Iwrote Single at Heart and it
helps to find your people online.
So I have an online Facebookgroup that I started in 2015,
(33:17):
called the Community of SinglePeople, and we talk about every
aspect of single life, exceptdating or trying to unsingle
yourself, and that now has morethan 9,000 members from more
than 100 nations.
Mary (33:36):
Wow.
Well, it's certainly somethingI've heard from so many people
that thanked me for telling herstory because now she had a
(34:01):
family that she didn't feelpressure to recouple after her
divorce.
But she also has that spirit,you know, and so you paved the
way to this next question,because the another chapter in
your book that I love is youtalk about the ones that we have
this idea that we're supposedto find the one right and
(34:24):
there's still this idea thatthere's one person out there for
everyone.
I'm gonna give people a cluethat's not the case.
But having the ones basicallymeans that you have I don't know
kind of a tribe or like yourpeeps or your people, and this
woman, marika, has tons offriends and you know, I think
(34:47):
when you have that system, it'snot a case where you're
expecting one person to fillevery need.
I don't know anybody that has apartner who you can actually
talk to about everything, andit's not really fair.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (35:06):
Yeah, and when you have the ones instead
of the one then you can talk topeople who are especially good
at certain things, like maybeyou know being there for you
when you're happy, or somebodyelse might be better when you're
sad, or somebody else might bebetter at understanding your
(35:28):
righteous anger about something.
And in fact there's a study ofthat that looked at people who
went to different people, haddifferent people in their lives
who were kind of like emotionspecialists for them, and
compared them to the people whoalways went to the same person,
(35:50):
for no matter how they werefeeling.
You know which is the typicalnot every couple, but a lot of
them, and they found that thepeople who had different people
for different needs were moresatisfied with their lives than
the people who were always goingto the same person.
(36:11):
And I think it may be in partwhat you said, that it's
actually not fair to think thatone person is going to you know,
like the song lyrics say, it'sgoing to be your everything.
Oh, I just want to be youreverything.
Yeah, and that's not a greatway to live.
Mary (36:33):
So much of it is reinforced, you know, by moving
it's all about.
We do love love and I love love.
But I think you have to be arealist that literally the
honeymoon period will end andyou're negotiating everything
with that partner Because,really, even as I am very single
(36:56):
at heart, you know I love mysolitude.
There's so many things.
I have a huge friend group thatI love.
But it's not also fair to mypartner to just skip off down
the path and not think about youknow what his needs are, and so
that has been.
You know, that's challenging inits own way.
So I'm going to thank you aheadof time for indulging me here,
(37:17):
because I sort of want to lookat this idea of people who might
truly be more I'm not going tosay 100%, 14 on your quiz single
at heart, but they have a lotof what I have, but they're also
in a committed relationship.
So as I was reading your book,it occurred to me that in some
(37:39):
of the couples that I might'veworked with in therapy, there
might've actually been one ofthem that was single at heart,
but they didn't have the wordsfor it and instead they thought,
oh, we're just incompatible, orthat person felt bad for
struggling.
So I'm just curious with thatabout what have you found and I
(38:03):
know this hasn't really been thefocus as much of your research,
but you did mention you knewpeople through your studies that
are in a committed relationship.
A huge need for freedom, a highdegree you know want a high
degree of joy.
What are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (38:22):
Yes.
Well, this is something I hadto be persuaded of.
When I was doing this researchand asking people to tell me
their life stories, I would hearfrom people who were in
committed romantic relationships, maybe even married, and they
insisted that they were singleat heart and I don't know.
(38:42):
But then, like you, they scoredfairly high on the single at
heart scale, not the highestnumber not 14, but typically,
just like you, around 12.
And what I found is that theywere not the typical I won't say
typical.
They weren't the kind of couplethat was enmeshed in each
(39:06):
other's lives.
So they were moreinterdependent and they had more
independence.
So they had more physical spaceand that might mean even to the
point of having their ownplaces, what's called living
apart together.
And they wanted their ownplaces, not because they wanted
(39:28):
to be free to cheat, but becausethey liked having a place of
their own.
And others of them didn't haveseparate places, but maybe they
had separate places within theplace that they shared.
If they had the room, theymight have separate floors or
(39:49):
separate ends of hallways orseparate ends of hallways.
And they also had other kindsof space, like social space,
where they got to socialize withtheir friends or with the other
people who are important tothem without having their
partner with them all the timeand without having their partner
(40:12):
stew about that or feel likethat time belonged to them
because their partner might beoff doing the same thing and
they probably have moreindependence in how they handle
their money, and so they reallydo crave and value their freedom
(40:35):
.
They value the time they have tothemselves, but they also value
their romantic relationship,and I think what's important
about that is having a partnerwho either is also single at
heart or who kind of gets it,because if you're not compatible
(40:56):
that way, if you're not bothsingle at heart, that could be a
problem.
In fact, when I first startedtalking about this many years
ago, a columnist wrote an essayabout it and she said that her
husband went away for a few daysand when he did.
Oh, she was so happy, she didall these things that she loved
(41:19):
to do and she had time toherself and it was great.
And then a little while latershe went away and her husband
had time to himself and he juststayed home and soaked.
And so I think that you knowthat can be hard, and it can be
(41:39):
hard for lots of reasons.
One is that the person wholikes being by themselves might
feel like they're being a badpartner, or their partner might
think they're being a badpartner or that there's
something about them that is atfault.
That means that their partnerdoesn't want to be with them all
(42:02):
the time, when, in fact, it'snot personal to the partner.
It's about the person who issingle at heart, Because for
them, even if they found themost perfect person in the world
and some of the people Iinterviewed feel like they have
found that they still don't wantto organize their life around a
(42:27):
romantic partner.
Mary (42:29):
Yeah, and I think I would encourage people to think
outside the box.
If they find themselves in thissituation and they're finally
able to have the words for it orto recognize it's not that you
don't love the person, it's justyou want a relationship with
yourself too.
Yes, normalize, like youmentioned, having maybe separate
(42:57):
parts of a home.
And I'm going to tell you so Iknow myself pretty well.
I am not a spring chicken andmy second marriage was much
later in life.
So I know myself so, and I willsay my husband probably would
score pretty low on your quiz,so we are truly an anomaly.
But I said before we gotmarried, I think I'm going to
need some space to myself.
(43:17):
So we found this, these peoplethat built this beautiful.
We call it the retreat.
It's like a she shed.
So in the woods I have my ownlittle retreat that when we both
are working from home, or evensome evenings.
I just say I'm just going to goout to the retreat and it's in
the woods.
And what some people I thinkdon't understand is, even if you
(43:39):
both are in the same room, butquiet, there's still this, this,
you know this sense of likesomebody in my space.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (43:48):
And they're stealing a sliver of your mind.
Mary (43:53):
Well, and I say too that I feel like people that tend to,
I think, enjoy solitude and becomfortable with themselves.
I think that we also have ahigh degree of I don't know like
empathy or connection, like weread people, we read them, I
think we read emotion, we readthe room, and I think partly
that's why we like some solitude, because, you know, it's sort
(44:16):
of like we're very aware ofthose other people near us or
around us, and he's beenwonderful with understanding
that exactly what you're saying,this is not about him.
One other thing that I wantedto explore a little bit with you
, because this makes me think ofthis this do you feel like in
(44:38):
what you've discovered, you'vehad a lot of examples of people
that have been coupled and thenchoose just like my guest,
choose to choose now to staysingle?
Do you feel like this is kindof like nature versus nurture?
Is it it like an inborn?
Or do you feel like peoplemaybe develop this love of being
(44:59):
single as they go through life?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (45:02):
Well, the short answer is I don't know for
sure, but I do think that beingsingle at heart is more than
just a lifestyle choice is morethan just a lifestyle choice.
So people who are single atheart are powerfully drawn to
(45:23):
single life.
It's the life that feels mostnatural, comfortable and
authentic.
But at the same time, it couldtake certain life experiences to
come to understand yourself assingle at heart.
One of my favorite is whathappened during the pandemic.
(45:45):
There were people who were ontheir own for an extended period
of time for the first time intheir adult life.
You know, there's someone whotold me that she went on dates
constantly every time arelationship broke up, because
she didn't ever want to besingle.
And then, during the pandemic,she was on her own and she
(46:11):
realized, oh wow, I like this.
And she realized, oh wow, Ilike this.
And I have heard similarstories from people who have
become divorced or widowed andmaybe at first it's devastating
and they don't like being ontheir own at all, but then they
(46:35):
kind of start to like it andthey start to feel comfortable
on their own and making theirown decisions and basically
learning who they really areapart from a spouse or a
romantic partner, andunderstanding that they
(46:58):
appreciate the freedom they nowhave and they take advantage of
that.
Now, this isn't true for all ofthem, but it is an interesting
experience and, again, animportant part of it is
understanding that there is sucha thing as flourishing because
(47:20):
you are single and not in spiteof it.
Mary (47:24):
Yes, 100%.
And so there certainly arepeople that they would rather be
coupled, and it's not a societything, it's just that's their
heart.
But I guess my message, orreally your message for sure, is
that people that choose thislife I mean okay, let me correct
(47:46):
that, because they're notchoosing it, it's who they are.
But when you see them livingthat life, they're good.
You know.
We don't have to worry aboutthem, we don't have to pity them
.
They're not lonely andsometimes I love.
I love the story you told aboutyou rented a place?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (48:07):
The Outer Banks in North Carolina
Mary (48:09):
Yeah, and people thought, like they were, it was great
surprise to show up early andit's like no, that's no.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (48:19):
Right, and then I would rent a place and
I'd save the last couple of daysto myself.
So I'd invite friends for thefirst part and then save the
last few days.
And I had a friend who couldn'tunderstand that, Like why
couldn't she just stay the wholetime?
Mary (48:36):
People really really don't understand that, like why
couldn't she just stay the wholetime?
People really really don'tunderstand sometimes, and so I
think your message in this bookis so important because it
supports the idea that what hasbeen put out there and really I
think it was not until 1974 thatthe laws changed that women
didn't need a man to co-signloans for her- yeah, isn't that
(48:58):
amazing.
Our society was set up to becoupled and there's still as you
probably know very well, havingbeen single your entire life
there's still things with taxeswhere you have an advantage if
you're married Absolutely andhave kids, by the way.
Yeah.
So being aware, I think, andovercoming just the assumption
(49:23):
that if you want to have apartner, awesome, but that's
really not what everyone elsemight want, and if they don't
want that, they're not broken.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (49:34):
Right.
Right.
So my single and hard bookisn't anti-coupling, it's pro
living your authentic life,living the life that's best for
you, most meaningful, mostfulfilling.
And nobody needs a book sayingthat, oh, marriage can be
meaningful and fulfilling,because that's what everybody
assumes.
But we do need a book sayingsingle life can be a powerful
(50:01):
freeing and a life ofheart-filling joy.
Mary (50:06):
It is very powerful, for sure, for sure, and this has
been just so fun.
I look forward to talking toyou for so long, and so I
appreciate your being here today.
This has been a wonderful talk.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (50:21):
Yes, I've really enjoyed talking to you
too.
Thank you again for inviting me.
Mary (50:26):
And again for everyone listening, Bella's latest book
is Single at Heart (50:29):
The Power, Freedom and Heart-Filling Joy of
Single Life.
You can find it on Amazon andother major booksellers, so I
will put a link to that in theshow notes.
I'm also gonna link you to herwebsite.
There's a lot of wonderfulinterviews and more information
on her other books, and I willalso link her TED Talk in my
show notes.
(50:50):
So thanks everyone forlistening, and this podcast is
really for you, so I would loveto hear from you.
Please review or comment or usethe link above the show notes
to send me a text with yourthoughts.
Follow the show so you don'tmiss a thing, and check me out
on Facebook or Instagram linksin the show notes.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
(51:11):
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hi and welcome to the show.
I am beyond excited to talk tomy guest today.
I mentioned her work in my mostever downloaded episode to date
(00:48):
, episode eight, in which Italked with Marieke Nissley
James about living single afterdivorce.
I myself have lived most of myadult life as a single person.
Now I want to qualify thatbecause, while I may have spent
some of that time dating, Iidentified first and foremost as
single at heart.
(01:09):
While I knew I wanted a partnerfor adventures, I had always
been my first support,financially, intellectually and
emotionally.
Even in my first marriage, Iwas motivated much more by joy
and freedom than safety andsecurity, and that's something
we'll talk about more later inthe episode.
I'm now married for a secondtime, yet I still identify as
(01:31):
highly single at heart and thatmay sound eye-raising to some of
you, but I think you'llunderstand more what that means
by the end of this episode.
It may even resonate with you.
For me, time alone or withfriends is as much of a priority
as time with my partner.
I rarely get lonely, even afterspending days in solo pursuits.
(01:52):
I've traveled alone and goingto a movie or dinner alone
remains one of my favoritethings.
I knew this about myself beforeI got married and, as is
important in any partnership,communication, respect and care
for the other partner's natureis at the core of my marriage.
I'm so happy to share my showtoday with Dr Bella DiPaolo, her
(02:15):
latest book Single at Heart.
The Power, freedom andHeart-Filling Joy of Single Life
may still seem groundbreakingto some listeners.
Being single has historicallybeen colored as something to be
ashamed of, especially for women.
As with many gender-connectedconcepts, the terms for women
(02:36):
still single, especially after30, are often unflattering.
Things like spinster or oldmaid.
Yet single men are called stagsor lone wolves -- strong
masculine images, even inreferences, meant to be
derogatory, and often we assumesingle men didn't CHOOSE to
marry, while single womencouldn't find anyone TO marry.
(02:58):
Now, thankfully, I think theseideas are slowly changing.
Some of the stigma ofsingleness was reinforced by
society.
I mean laws made it necessaryfor women to be married to have
access to loans or otherfinancial supports, and although
a lot of that has changed, theidea of finding a mate and
settling down is still held upas the ideal.
(03:19):
People love love, and picturesof it and of couples on social
media often get more likes andpositive comments than any other
"achievement.
I think the popularity of myepisode with Marika on choosing
to live as a single woman afterdivorce signals that this is a
theme for many, many people,more than we might believe.
(03:42):
So today, Bella and I will bediscussing her research and
discoveries from her work withsingle people, and we will also
explore her thoughts on coupledpeople who have quite a high
dose of singleness of heart.
I'd love to contribute to thedestigmatization of singleness
overall, but also give those incommitted relationships some
(04:03):
idea how to navigate, maybe avacillating want to stay
connected to a partner whilehonoring some of the joys of
being in a relationship withyourself and the unique freedoms
this offers.
So let's get to it.
Bella DiPaolo, PhD, has alwaysbeen single and always will be.
The Atlantic calls her"America's foremost thinker and
(04:26):
writer on the single experience.
Her TEDx talk what no One EverTold you About People who Are
Single has been viewed more than1.7 million times.
She is the author of one of mynew favorite books Single at
Heart the Power, freedom andHeart-Filling Joy of Single Life
, which, by the way, I think hasbeen translated into six
(04:47):
languages so far.
So welcome to the show, bella.
I have really been lookingforward to talking with you.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (04:54):
Thank you so much for that wonderful
introduction and for inviting meto be on your show.
Mary (05:01):
Well, I think we have a lot to talk about, so I'm just
going to jump in.
And so, of course, I have notonly read your book, but once I
read your book, then I wanted toknow more.
So I've heard you on some otherpodcasts, and one of the things
that I love is sort of the wayyou got into what you're really
focusing on and have focused onfor a few decades, because I
(05:25):
think it's interesting how someof the most impactful choices in
life come from unexpectedinspiration, like it's a
combination of our ownexperience and maybe seeing it
reflected in the world.
So can you share a little bitabout how you walked into this
world of researching and being achampion for singleness?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (05:50):
Sure, so I have always been single, like
you said in your introduction,and I never really had a
research interest for me, it wasjust something about my life.
Then, in December of 1992, Iwas 39 years old, it was near
the holidays and somebody wroteinto an advice columnist in my
(06:11):
local paper and she said thatshe had recently been widowed
and the holidays were so hardfor her and how was she ever
going to get through them.
And the advice columnist had alot to say, but I underlined one
statement which was rememberthat one is a whole number.
(06:37):
Now I wasn't feeling like anincomplete person because I was
single, but I thought it wasinteresting that this person
needed to be reassured that onewas a whole number and that the
advice columnist thought to saythat to her.
(06:58):
And so that was the start of myacademic or research interest in
being single and how people whoare single are perceived and
understood.
So I started this folder and Iwrote the number 1 on the tab.
This is 1992, before everythingwas online and I put that
(07:22):
clipping in the folder and thenI started collecting all sorts
of other things relevant to howsingle people are portrayed in
the media.
I don't know if you rememberthe Kathy cartoons who was the
single woman who was alwayssaying, " which I did not think
was the most favorable portrayalof a single person.
(07:44):
But whatever, it was irrelevantto my project and I was finding
that in prestigiouspublications there was this kind
of condescending attitudetowards single people and that
really bothered me.
At first this was all private.
I didn't tell anyone that I wasdoing this and then at some
(08:07):
point I decided okay, I have tosee how other single people feel
about this.
So I was at a social event and Iwent up to someone who I didn't
know very well, but I knew shewas single, and I started
telling her about some of theexperiences I had had as a
(08:28):
single person that I thoughtwere because I was single.
So, for example, the person whoorganized the class schedule
where I was teaching at theUniversity of Virginia said that
she wanted me to come in atnight to teach because it would
be too hard for the marriedfaculty to come in, they didn't
(08:51):
even have kids yet.
Or another example is that Iwould socialize with my
colleagues during the week, youknow, we'd leave from work and
go out to lunch together, butthen, when the weekend came, the
couples would socialize witheach other and they wouldn't
include me.
So was that because I wassingle and they think, you know,
(09:14):
they're couples and they get tohave their married couple club?
Or was it because they justdidn't like me and during the
week they kind of felt obligatedto include me because it was
theOkay, so I approached this woman
at this social event and I tellher some of those stories and I
said do you have any exampleslike that?
(09:35):
Have you ever been treated thatway?
And she did so.
She started telling me herexperiences.
Then somebody else joined usand he started telling us his
experiences.
Then somebody else joined usand he started telling us his
experiences.
Then someone else, then someoneelse.
We had this circle of peopleand we talked the whole night.
(09:56):
I went home and I startedwriting notes.
I tried to remember everythingthose people told me and I wrote
for two hours.
Then the next morning, I wokeup, turned on my email and I had
these notes from people saying,oh, and another thing.
They remembered something,something I wanted to really
(10:29):
focus on and do research on andwrite about.
But I didn't want to just writefor an academic audience,
because this was something thatresonated with people well
beyond the halls of academia,and so that was the start for me
(10:50):
.
Mary (10:50):
Wow.
Well, I think it's sointeresting because I always
think of this story when I'mthinking about or talking about
being single or even doingthings in the world that show
that you are single, or byyourself.
So I taught this course at acommunity college and it was
(11:11):
psychology of adjustment and Iwould tell my students stories
about and when we talked aboutsort of individual and yourself
in a relationship, I would talka lot about what is it to really
know yourself?
And I said you know, I go outand I'll go to dinner by myself.
And they were mortified that Iwould sit there by myself.
(11:36):
I said, well, I take a book.
Or I said, sometimes I'll go tomovies by myself.
And they couldn't, I wouldnever do that.
And I said, well, why would younever do it?
And they often would say thingslike well, people think you're
a loser and I'm like you know,like it's that idea, that simple
idea that if you go somewherealone you don't have anybody to
(12:00):
go with you, and so often that'sfalse, right.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (12:09):
It is, you know, my first time I taught a
course on being single.
I had an assignment and I saidthat they should go out for a
meal by themselves, and theyloved the idea.
So they upped the ante and theysaid not only are we going to
go out for a meal, but it has tobe dinner, not just, you know,
lunch or brunch or whatever, andno books, no distractions, just
(12:31):
be there.
So that was really.
I just loved my students forthat.
They were so into it.
But what you were saying aboutwhat people assume.
So the very first study I everdid was to see how people
perceive what they actuallythink of people who are dining
(12:51):
alone were either by themselvesor with other people.
And then we brought thepictures to a shopping mall and
we asked people what theythought of the various pictures
(13:14):
and why was that person?
If they were alone, why werethey eating alone or what did
you think of them?
And what about the people whoare together?
And it was fascinating.
Overall, on average, there wereno differences between how
people perceived the peoplealone and the people together.
(13:40):
Now that doesn't mean that therewere were negative and positive
, about both the single peopleand the people such as those who
look like romantic couples.
So here's some examples.
So sure, some people seeingsomeone dining alone would say
something negative, but moreoften they'd say, oh, she just
(14:03):
wants some time to herself, orhe looks contented.
Or my favorite one, somebodysaid he looks secure.
I love that, yeah.
And then same thing for thecouples.
They might say, oh, you know,they wanted to have dinner
together, but then they'd saynegative things, like well,
(14:24):
they're just together becausethey have to be, they don't have
anything to say to each other.
You know, they just feltobligated, and so it was just
such an eye-opening set ofresults that people think, oh,
you know, the single person isgoing to be seen as a loser, the
couple is going to be seen asso cool, or the group of people,
(14:47):
group of friends.
That's not what happened.
It was mixed about both.
(15:08):
So I think part of that too andof course this is certainly
something that's in your book isthe idea that when you feel
quite content by yourself and Ican sort of verify this as a
therapist people think, well, isthere something wrong with me?
Because I don't.
I'm not drawn to this.
You know, this thing that wehold up is the ideal that
(15:28):
there's this one person.
You should find this person,and so people can sort of fool
themselves that well, if I'mreally content and I can go do
my thing or I can spend time insolitude and not feel lonely,
does that mean I'm?
And then they would assign am Icommitment phobic, or you know,
(15:50):
is there something fromchildhood that I haven't
overcome?
And that's not it.
Right, and this is something that really
gets to me and I haveexperienced it over and over.
I'm not a therapist, I'm aresearcher, but people will
write to me out of the blue,people I don't know.
They'll send me an email or,occasionally, a handwritten card
(16:11):
and they'll say something likeI love my single life, I love
the solitude, I love the freedom, I love spending time with the
people I care about.
And then in the next sentencethey'll say do you think there's
something wrong with me that Ilike being single?
And it is so gobsmackingbecause here they have what
(16:37):
everybody craves, a life thatthey love, and yet, because it's
single life, they think thatmeans there's something wrong
with them.
And that's one of themisconceptions I am bound and
determined to challenge with mysingle heart book, because I
(16:59):
think that a lot of what getsframed as normal and good and
natural and superior, which iskind of, you know, being with
people, whether it's justsocializing all the time or
having the one, that'snormalized and people who like
(17:20):
their solitude more or or likebeing single, are stigmatized
and questioned about whetherthere's something wrong with
them, and I think that thatreally gets some really
important things wrong.
For example, I think that theability to flourish in solitude
(17:45):
is a real strength.
That's not a weakness.
That's a wonderful thing If youcan be on your own and find
that time alone to be restful orproductive or good for
creativity or spirituality orwhatever you like to do in your
(18:05):
alone time, instead of thestereotype of people being alone
, being lonely, it's going to bejust the opposite.
If you flourish in solitude,you are very unlikely to be
lonely, and that's one of thekey things about people who are
(18:25):
single at heart they love theirsolitude.
Now, that doesn't mean theydon't also like socializing,
having friends and all the rest,but solitude doesn't scare them
.
They value it, they cherish it.
Mary (18:40):
Well, you have a whole chapter in your book on solitude
.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (18:44):
Yes.
Mary (18:45):
And there were so many quotes in there that resonated
with me, and we'll get into thismore because, as I mentioned,
I'm married.
But I'm going to tell you,Bella, I scored a 12 on your
quiz.
That's pretty good.
So for people that don't knowand I don't know, I didn't find
this anywhere online, but inyour book, at the end of chapter
(19:05):
one, you have, I think it's 14or 15 questions, right?
Yes, 14, yes, yep.
And so you answer thosequestions to sort of determine
are you more single at heart?
And it's really interestingbecause I know you pointed out
in your book the question sortof about the idea that you can
(19:27):
do most things like you.
I forget what the exactquestion was, but that's always
something that I felt like oh, Ican, whatever comes up, I'm
going to be able to handle, youknow.
And yeah, and there are certainthings that I think it makes
you think about it in adifferent way, but I loved that
there was a whole chapter onsolitude, because when I'm by
(19:50):
myself, I don't think of that asbeing alone.
This might be a little weird tosome people.
In my mind, I'm spending timewith myself.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (19:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's an interesting wayto think about it, and, in fact
, people who like being aloneare more authentic.
They're more likely to beliving according to who they
really are, and I think that'simportant too, that if you don't
(20:21):
like being alone, sometimes Ithink what that means is you
don't like being face-to-facewith yourself.
There's something about yourselfthat you're uncomfortable with.
Maybe you're not living yourmost authentic life, but you're
(20:42):
living the life somebody elsethinks you should be living.
When you feel that peace oreven joyful about the life you
have chosen, then it's going tobe much more fulfilling to be
(21:03):
face to face with yourself.
Mary (21:05):
Yeah, I really agree with that, and I don't know the exact
quote, of course, in the book,but somebody talked about that
they are better around otherpeople if they can spend the
time they need by themselves.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (21:22):
Isn't that great?
And you can find that sentimentin other places too.
Sarah Maitland wrote a bookcalled how to Be Alone, and she
also talked about how she is abetter friend.
She's better in personally whenshe's had her full measure of
solitude, and that was what theperson in my Single at Heart
(21:45):
book was saying as well.
Mary (21:49):
That's really true for me that I need to have a certain
amount of time in solitude,because it sort of helps me kind
of regulate my thinking.
It just gets me back down tokind of a grounded state.
I don't want to sound too kindof woo about it, but it sort of
renews me, and so I think wethink of that sort of trait as
(22:13):
introversion.
Now, first I'm going to say Ithink a lot of people have a
misunderstanding of what beingintroverted means.
But do you find that that is acommonality that a lot of people
that do have sort of this peacewith being single tend to be
more introverted?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (22:35):
people who told me their life stories.
More of them were introvertedthan extroverted, but there were
extroverts and there werepeople who also considered
themselves somewhere in between.
So, yes, it tilts towardsintroversion, but it's not the
same thing.
(22:56):
And people who study solitudeas their scholarly interest and
expertise have found thatappreciating solitude is not
only something that's true ofintroverts, that even extroverts
who like being with people alot of the time, can still like
(23:19):
having some time to themselves,and that what really matters is
authenticity.
So are you living your mostauthentic life?
Are you being true to yourself?
And the people who are beingtrue to themselves are most
likely to be at ease in solitudeor, even better than that, they
(23:45):
savor their solitude.
Mary (23:47):
Yeah Well, so to take a little turn now to another
chapter.
That was one of my favorites.
You have a whole chapter onfreedom.
So what I found interesting?
So in my episode eight I talkedto my friend Marieke, who has
two kids, was married but shegot divorced, dated a little and
then she realized she truly washappier as a single person and
(24:10):
I asked her what did she likethe most about being single?
And she said freedom.
And I was like absolutely.
That was in Bella's book.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (24:21):
Yes, in fact, every person who was single at
heart and shared their storywith me when I asked them what
they liked about being single,every one of them in some way or
another, said they loved theirfreedom.
What might come to mind?
First, that you can arrangeyour schedule any way you want.
(24:43):
If you live alone, you can havea place that reflects who you
really are and it's decoratedthe way you want, and you have
your own sleep schedule and youeat what you want when you want,
and when you put something inthe refrigerator at night it's
still there the next day, andall those kinds of things.
But it's also bigger things,like financial freedom, getting
(25:06):
to decide how much to save andto spend, and really big things
like making big life-changingdecisions without worrying about
what a romantic partner wouldthink or if they want to do it.
And I did that myself when, inthe year 2000, I moved from the
(25:32):
University of Virginia on theEast Coast all the way over to
UC Santa Barbara on the WestCoast.
Now, it was supposed to be justa one-year sabbatical, but I
loved it out here.
You know.
The sunshine and the progressivevalues and the people were just
so interesting and thoughtfuland it was getting toward the
(25:57):
time when I was supposed to goback because it was supposed to
be just for one year, and I waswalking the beach with somebody
else who had also been at theUniversity of Virginia and now
is at UCSB and stayed there, andI said I just don't want to go
back.
And she said I just don't wantto go back.
And she said, well, don't.
And of course you know I'msingle, I could do that, and so
(26:21):
I just upended my entire lifethat was based on the East Coast
, moved to the West Coast, andthat is also when I decided to
commit to putting the study ofsingle people at the center of
my professional life.
And you know, imagine trying todo that with a spouse.
(26:45):
Okay, you know, we're allsettled here in Charlottesville,
virginia, but now I moved toSanta Barbara, california, and I
don't have a job there, and youdon't have a job there, and our
families are on the East Coastand yet on my own.
Mary (27:05):
Yeah, you didn't have to check with anybody.
So, yeah, so that idea offreedom, just to be able to make
those choices, that I think isoverwhelming to some people.
And so I, again, I often framethings in different ways because
I think about, if agonize over,maybe there's someone they
(27:26):
truly care about, a partner, andthey're feeling this pull
towards you know.
But I really feel happy bymyself.
I love this idea of freedom.
So it makes me think of so I'mgoing to go a little academic
(27:49):
for a second.
It makes me think of WilliamGlasser's choice theory.
So he talked about having fivebasic needs and those are our
motivations that determine howwe make a lot of our choices in
life.
So one of those is freedom.
Freedom is a big motivator forme.
I like being able to make myown choices, be autonomous.
(28:09):
But another one of those basicneeds he calls it survival, but
I'm going to call it safety andsecurity, so an idea of being
anchored to something.
So for some people in yoursituation, they would like being
able to talk that over with apartner right and decide
together and maybe even abdicatetheir own choice if that wasn't
(28:35):
the best for the couple or thepartnership.
So what are your thoughts onthis kind of thing?
Thinking about what motivatesus?
Do you think that might helpsome of these people that are?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (28:46):
There is so much either pressure to be
coupled or just the assumptionthat, of course, everyone wants
to be coupled, and that can makeit hard for people who really
(29:12):
thrive while being single tounderstand that, as the kids say
, being single at heart is athing you know.
There are people more than youmight ever imagine, who've lived
their best life their mostmeaningful, fulfilling life as a
single person, most meaningful,fulfilling life as a single
(29:37):
person.
And so the question is, or oneof the questions is how do you
know?
And I think one thing thatmatters is how you feel when
you're in a romanticrelationship.
So people who are in a romanticrelationship and it doesn't
work often think to themselves,well, that was just the wrong
(29:59):
person, or I'm not at the rightpoint in my life, I need to work
on myself.
And so they try again and again.
And what is really telling iswhen they find someone they do
love and who loves them, and itstill doesn't feel right.
(30:19):
And that is so telling becauseit's not about, oh, you met the
wrong person or you're at thewrong time in your life, or any
of that.
It's that single is who youreally are, that it's that
single is who you really are.
That's how you live your best,most fulfilling and authentic
(30:41):
life.
And single very important tounderstand does not mean alone
or isolated or unattached, eventhough people assume those
things.
In fact, single people ingeneral are more connected to
more different people, so theystay in touch with their friends
(31:01):
and neighbors and colleaguesand parents and relatives,
whereas people who get married,and research shows this when
people get married, they becomemore insular, so they become
more focused on their spouse.
They pay less attention to theirfriends, their parents, and you
(31:21):
know that doesn't mean everymarried person does that, but on
the average that's what happens.
So it's the single people whoare more connected to other
people, and so I think it'sreally unhelpful and actually
hurtful to have thesesocietal-wide assumptions that
(31:44):
everyone wants to be married orin a committed romantic
relationship and if they don't,they're just fooling themselves
or there's something wrong withthem.
We've got to get beyond that sopeople can live their best
lives.
And, of course, it's reallyimportant for people who are
(32:07):
themselves single at heart, butit's also important for the
people that they try to pair upwith, you know, because they
feel like, well, I should betrying to find the one, and so
they get into theserelationships and it's not fair
to the other person who probablyreally does want a committed
(32:29):
romantic relationship and is notsingle at heart.
Mary (32:33):
Right and that socialization, I think, is so
strong that sometimes it takessome time for people to really
be able to push that aside andlisten to their I call it their
essential nature as to whatactually makes them the happiest
.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (32:51):
Right, and I think what also helps is having
some validation, so knowing thatthere are other people like you
and that's one of the reasons Iwrote Single at Heart and it
helps to find your people online.
So I have an online Facebookgroup that I started in 2015,
(33:17):
called the Community of SinglePeople, and we talk about every
aspect of single life, exceptdating or trying to unsingle
yourself, and that now has morethan 9,000 members from more
than 100 nations.
Mary (33:36):
Wow.
Well, it's certainly somethingI've heard from so many people
that thanked me for telling herstory because now she had a
(34:01):
family that she didn't feelpressure to recouple after her
divorce.
But she also has that spirit,you know, and so you paved the
way to this next question,because the another chapter in
your book that I love is youtalk about the ones that we have
this idea that we're supposedto find the one right and
(34:24):
there's still this idea thatthere's one person out there for
everyone.
I'm gonna give people a cluethat's not the case.
But having the ones basicallymeans that you have I don't know
kind of a tribe or like yourpeeps or your people, and this
woman, marika, has tons offriends and you know, I think
(34:47):
when you have that system, it'snot a case where you're
expecting one person to fillevery need.
I don't know anybody that has apartner who you can actually
talk to about everything, andit's not really fair.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (35:06):
Yeah, and when you have the ones instead
of the one then you can talk topeople who are especially good
at certain things, like maybeyou know being there for you
when you're happy, or somebodyelse might be better when you're
sad, or somebody else might bebetter at understanding your
(35:28):
righteous anger about something.
And in fact there's a study ofthat that looked at people who
went to different people, haddifferent people in their lives
who were kind of like emotionspecialists for them, and
compared them to the people whoalways went to the same person,
(35:50):
for no matter how they werefeeling.
You know which is the typicalnot every couple, but a lot of
them, and they found that thepeople who had different people
for different needs were moresatisfied with their lives than
the people who were always goingto the same person.
(36:11):
And I think it may be in partwhat you said, that it's
actually not fair to think thatone person is going to you know,
like the song lyrics say, it'sgoing to be your everything.
Oh, I just want to be youreverything.
Yeah, and that's not a greatway to live.
Mary (36:33):
So much of it is reinforced, you know, by moving
it's all about.
We do love love and I love love.
But I think you have to be arealist that literally the
honeymoon period will end andyou're negotiating everything
with that partner Because,really, even as I am very single
(36:56):
at heart, you know I love mysolitude.
There's so many things.
I have a huge friend group thatI love.
But it's not also fair to mypartner to just skip off down
the path and not think about youknow what his needs are, and so
that has been.
You know, that's challenging inits own way.
So I'm going to thank you aheadof time for indulging me here,
(37:17):
because I sort of want to lookat this idea of people who might
truly be more I'm not going tosay 100%, 14 on your quiz single
at heart, but they have a lotof what I have, but they're also
in a committed relationship.
So as I was reading your book,it occurred to me that in some
(37:39):
of the couples that I might'veworked with in therapy, there
might've actually been one ofthem that was single at heart,
but they didn't have the wordsfor it and instead they thought,
oh, we're just incompatible, orthat person felt bad for
struggling.
So I'm just curious with thatabout what have you found and I
(38:03):
know this hasn't really been thefocus as much of your research,
but you did mention you knewpeople through your studies that
are in a committed relationship.
A huge need for freedom, a highdegree you know want a high
degree of joy.
What are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (38:22):
Yes.
Well, this is something I hadto be persuaded of.
When I was doing this researchand asking people to tell me
their life stories, I would hearfrom people who were in
committed romantic relationships, maybe even married, and they
insisted that they were singleat heart and I don't know.
(38:42):
But then, like you, they scoredfairly high on the single at
heart scale, not the highestnumber not 14, but typically,
just like you, around 12.
And what I found is that theywere not the typical I won't say
typical.
They weren't the kind of couplethat was enmeshed in each
(39:06):
other's lives.
So they were moreinterdependent and they had more
independence.
So they had more physical spaceand that might mean even to the
point of having their ownplaces, what's called living
apart together.
And they wanted their ownplaces, not because they wanted
(39:28):
to be free to cheat, but becausethey liked having a place of
their own.
And others of them didn't haveseparate places, but maybe they
had separate places within theplace that they shared.
If they had the room, theymight have separate floors or
(39:49):
separate ends of hallways orseparate ends of hallways.
And they also had other kindsof space, like social space,
where they got to socialize withtheir friends or with the other
people who are important tothem without having their
partner with them all the timeand without having their partner
(40:12):
stew about that or feel likethat time belonged to them
because their partner might beoff doing the same thing and
they probably have moreindependence in how they handle
their money, and so they reallydo crave and value their freedom
(40:35):
.
They value the time they have tothemselves, but they also value
their romantic relationship,and I think what's important
about that is having a partnerwho either is also single at
heart or who kind of gets it,because if you're not compatible
(40:56):
that way, if you're not bothsingle at heart, that could be a
problem.
In fact, when I first startedtalking about this many years
ago, a columnist wrote an essayabout it and she said that her
husband went away for a few daysand when he did.
Oh, she was so happy, she didall these things that she loved
(41:19):
to do and she had time toherself and it was great.
And then a little while latershe went away and her husband
had time to himself and he juststayed home and soaked.
And so I think that you knowthat can be hard, and it can be
(41:39):
hard for lots of reasons.
One is that the person wholikes being by themselves might
feel like they're being a badpartner, or their partner might
think they're being a badpartner or that there's
something about them that is atfault.
That means that their partnerdoesn't want to be with them all
(42:02):
the time, when, in fact, it'snot personal to the partner.
It's about the person who issingle at heart, Because for
them, even if they found themost perfect person in the world
and some of the people Iinterviewed feel like they have
found that they still don't wantto organize their life around a
(42:27):
romantic partner.
Mary (42:29):
Yeah, and I think I would encourage people to think
outside the box.
If they find themselves in thissituation and they're finally
able to have the words for it orto recognize it's not that you
don't love the person, it's justyou want a relationship with
yourself too.
Yes, normalize, like youmentioned, having maybe separate
(42:57):
parts of a home.
And I'm going to tell you so Iknow myself pretty well.
I am not a spring chicken andmy second marriage was much
later in life.
So I know myself so, and I willsay my husband probably would
score pretty low on your quiz,so we are truly an anomaly.
But I said before we gotmarried, I think I'm going to
need some space to myself.
(43:17):
So we found this, these peoplethat built this beautiful.
We call it the retreat.
It's like a she shed.
So in the woods I have my ownlittle retreat that when we both
are working from home, or evensome evenings.
I just say I'm just going to goout to the retreat and it's in
the woods.
And what some people I thinkdon't understand is, even if you
(43:39):
both are in the same room, butquiet, there's still this, this,
you know this sense of likesomebody in my space.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (43:48):
And they're stealing a sliver of your mind.
Mary (43:53):
Well, and I say too that I feel like people that tend to,
I think, enjoy solitude and becomfortable with themselves.
I think that we also have ahigh degree of I don't know like
empathy or connection, like weread people, we read them, I
think we read emotion, we readthe room, and I think partly
that's why we like some solitude, because, you know, it's sort
(44:16):
of like we're very aware ofthose other people near us or
around us, and he's beenwonderful with understanding
that exactly what you're saying,this is not about him.
One other thing that I wantedto explore a little bit with you
, because this makes me think ofthis this do you feel like in
(44:38):
what you've discovered, you'vehad a lot of examples of people
that have been coupled and thenchoose just like my guest,
choose to choose now to staysingle?
Do you feel like this is kindof like nature versus nurture?
Is it it like an inborn?
Or do you feel like peoplemaybe develop this love of being
(44:59):
single as they go through life?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (45:02):
Well, the short answer is I don't know for
sure, but I do think that beingsingle at heart is more than
just a lifestyle choice is morethan just a lifestyle choice.
So people who are single atheart are powerfully drawn to
(45:23):
single life.
It's the life that feels mostnatural, comfortable and
authentic.
But at the same time, it couldtake certain life experiences to
come to understand yourself assingle at heart.
One of my favorite is whathappened during the pandemic.
(45:45):
There were people who were ontheir own for an extended period
of time for the first time intheir adult life.
You know, there's someone whotold me that she went on dates
constantly every time arelationship broke up, because
she didn't ever want to besingle.
And then, during the pandemic,she was on her own and she
(46:11):
realized, oh wow, I like this.
And she realized, oh wow, Ilike this.
And I have heard similarstories from people who have
become divorced or widowed andmaybe at first it's devastating
and they don't like being ontheir own at all, but then they
(46:35):
kind of start to like it andthey start to feel comfortable
on their own and making theirown decisions and basically
learning who they really areapart from a spouse or a
romantic partner, andunderstanding that they
(46:58):
appreciate the freedom they nowhave and they take advantage of
that.
Now, this isn't true for all ofthem, but it is an interesting
experience and, again, animportant part of it is
understanding that there is sucha thing as flourishing because
(47:20):
you are single and not in spiteof it.
Mary (47:24):
Yes, 100%.
And so there certainly arepeople that they would rather be
coupled, and it's not a societything, it's just that's their
heart.
But I guess my message, orreally your message for sure, is
that people that choose thislife I mean okay, let me correct
(47:46):
that, because they're notchoosing it, it's who they are.
But when you see them livingthat life, they're good.
You know.
We don't have to worry aboutthem, we don't have to pity them
.
They're not lonely andsometimes I love.
I love the story you told aboutyou rented a place?
Dr. Bella DePaulo (48:07):
The Outer Banks in North Carolina
Mary (48:09):
Yeah, and people thought, like they were, it was great
surprise to show up early andit's like no, that's no.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (48:19):
Right, and then I would rent a place and
I'd save the last couple of daysto myself.
So I'd invite friends for thefirst part and then save the
last few days.
And I had a friend who couldn'tunderstand that, Like why
couldn't she just stay the wholetime?
Mary (48:36):
People really really don't understand that, like why
couldn't she just stay the wholetime?
People really really don'tunderstand sometimes, and so I
think your message in this bookis so important because it
supports the idea that what hasbeen put out there and really I
think it was not until 1974 thatthe laws changed that women
didn't need a man to co-signloans for her- yeah, isn't that
(48:58):
amazing.
Our society was set up to becoupled and there's still as you
probably know very well, havingbeen single your entire life
there's still things with taxeswhere you have an advantage if
you're married Absolutely andhave kids, by the way.
Yeah.
So being aware, I think, andovercoming just the assumption
(49:23):
that if you want to have apartner, awesome, but that's
really not what everyone elsemight want, and if they don't
want that, they're not broken.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (49:34):
Right.
Right.
So my single and hard bookisn't anti-coupling, it's pro
living your authentic life,living the life that's best for
you, most meaningful, mostfulfilling.
And nobody needs a book sayingthat, oh, marriage can be
meaningful and fulfilling,because that's what everybody
assumes.
But we do need a book sayingsingle life can be a powerful
(50:01):
freeing and a life ofheart-filling joy.
Mary (50:06):
It is very powerful, for sure, for sure, and this has
been just so fun.
I look forward to talking toyou for so long, and so I
appreciate your being here today.
This has been a wonderful talk.
Dr. Bella DePaulo (50:21):
Yes, I've really enjoyed talking to you
too.
Thank you again for inviting me.
Mary (50:26):
And again for everyone listening, Bella's latest book
is Single at Heart (50:29):
The Power, Freedom and Heart-Filling Joy of
Single Life.
You can find it on Amazon andother major booksellers, so I
will put a link to that in theshow notes.
I'm also gonna link you to herwebsite.
There's a lot of wonderfulinterviews and more information
on her other books, and I willalso link her TED Talk in my
show notes.
(50:50):
So thanks everyone forlistening, and this podcast is
really for you, so I would loveto hear from you.
Please review or comment or usethe link above the show notes
to send me a text with yourthoughts.
Follow the show so you don'tmiss a thing, and check me out
on Facebook or Instagram linksin the show notes.
And until next time, go outinto the world and be the
(51:11):
amazing, resilient, vibrantviolet that you are.
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