November 11, 2025 • 41 mins
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What if “finding the right guy” is the very thing keeping you stuck? We open up about how self-sufficiency without vulnerability can mask red flags, and why the path to a steady, equal partnership begins with radical honesty about your needs. Licensed social worker and relationship coach Chaya Garcia joins Mary Rothwell to break down codependency as an addiction, the dopamine cycles that keep us chasing crumbs, and the quiet power of choosing yourself before you choose anyone else.
Together we map out clear, practical signals: when to leave, when it might be safe to stay, and how to tell the difference without repainting reality. If there’s active addiction, untreated mental health issues, or chronic mismatch between words and actions, your nervous system is already telling you the truth. If growth is visible and consistent without your pushing—therapy sought, behaviors changing, responsibilities kept—you may have ground to build. We explore the investigator mindset, why safety is a pattern not a promise, and how to listen to your body for clues you can trust.
We also reframe the entire dating project: stop trying to find; start learning to attract. When your life aligns with your values and purpose—your real list, not your loneliness—you draw in partners who can meet you at your level of self-respect. Whether you call it soulmates or deep alignment, the effect is the same: intimacy over performance, steadiness over chaos. Expect clear takeaways on boundaries, self-trust, and daily self-love rituals that keep your center strong—notes to self, small acts of loyalty, and the courage to leave what hurts.
If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick rating or review. Your support helps more listeners trade chasing for choosing—and build love that lets them breathe.
Find Chaya on Instagram at Epic Love Expert.
Sign up for the launch team for my book, Nature Knows, and get free insider news and surprises at https://maryrothwell.net/natureknows
Comments about this episode? Suggestions for a future episode? Wanna be a guest? Email me directly at NSVpodcast@gmail.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:05):
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
So I had a pretty varied datinglife.
I didn't get married for thefirst time until I was 37.
I was pretty self-sufficient,which seems like a great way to
(00:51):
enter a relationship, right?
I supported myself, I knew howto navigate the world, I owned
my house, I was successfulprofessionally.
But ironically, knowing myselfand being independent actually
meant that I ignored many redflags.
I didn't know that until I wasfiling divorce papers.
See, I didn't need anyone.
(01:12):
So there were behaviors that Iexcused because I felt like I
also didn't need a truepartnership, which, of course,
is glaringly, obviouslybullshit.
I see that now.
Anyway, I won't go into all thereasons I settled for my first
husband's limited investment inour marriage.
Those issues, as with many ofour areas where we need to grow,
go back to childhood.
(01:32):
Even after my marriage ended, Iovercorrected in my dating
decisions, but life continued toteach me what I needed to end
up in an equal and strongmarriage today.
I think finding a life partnerfor those who truly want that
can be an exercise in radicalacceptance because it's not like
takeout.
We can't just look at a menuand order what we want.
(01:53):
It's not like an appointmentfor a haircut.
We can't choose the date wewant to meet someone on the
timeline that would work bestfor all of our other plans and
commitments.
My guest today had some of herown struggles in her quest to
find a partner.
So we're going to talk abouthow she recognized that, what
she did to change it, includinga little bit about mindset, and
get some of her best insightsinto how to create the
(02:16):
partnership you truly want.
And one of the questions we'regoing to answer along the way is
why finding the right guy mightbe the worst way to go about
love.
Haya Garcia is a licensedsocial worker and she is on a
mission to change marriagedynamics through training women
and men how to love themselves,re-empower their inner child, be
(02:38):
honest with who's responsiblefor their happiness, educate
them on healthy and unhealthysigns of behavior during the
dating process, and ultimatelyfeel secure and confident in
making the decision on who tomarry that will ensure healthy
dynamics and a safe space foreach to grow and fulfill their
purpose.
Welcome to No Shrinking VioletSkya.
Chaya (02:59):
Hi, Mary.
Mary (03:00):
Thank you so much for having me here.
It's truly an honor.
And I want to tell everyonethat is just listening with no
video that she's standing inthis beautiful space.
She has this lovely lightbehind her that is rainbow-like,
and it's just a beautifulspace.
So I love that.
Okay.
So I wondered if you couldstart by telling us a bit about
(03:22):
your own history and what wasyour wake-up call to start on a
different path towards your ownlove story.
Chaya (03:28):
Yeah.
Well, first of all, listeners,y'all are in the right place if
you want to get to therelationship of your dreams,
because it starts from you.
Mary, what you said about howyou were so independent and
successful that kind of, ofcourse, you married the wrong
man because you didn't needanyone, which took away your
vulnerability, which is the keynecessity and ingredient for
(03:51):
intimacy.
So I also want to likeacknowledge what you just shared
with all of your listeners, andI will respond to your
question.
But it's like women think, oh,I just have to be beautiful.
I just have to be successful.
I just have to be and do and doand do.
But then they miss thatintimacy piece, that
vulnerability, that trueconnection that comes from
(04:12):
messiness, shame, screw-ups.
And it's in that space whereyou feel if you can find someone
who is very safe and you canrely on them never to withdraw
their love when you screw up,but to be consistent, you can
actually have a marriage thatlasts.
Mary (04:29):
Yeah.
Chaya (04:30):
So in answer to your question, I was in fetal
position, crying hysterically,totally numb when I had just
spent all morning getting readyfor my boyfriend at the time.
I put on makeup, I madebreakfast for him, I made
coffee.
I was like, let's read andlearn together.
Let's ins let me inspire you.
(04:51):
Right.
And then I set up everything.
He comes in all like slumpedover or like a good addict.
And he's like, just so youknow, breaking up with you.
I'm gonna go upstate New Yorkto do drugs.
Wow.
And I was like, what?
And so he left.
We had dated a long time.
I always said, choose me ordrugs, right?
(05:12):
Which makes so much sense.
Every woman and their mom atsome point in their unhealthy
life says, choose me or right?
Choose me or the porn, chooseme or the pot, choose me or the
drugs, choose me over your work.
Just choose me.
Like you love me.
Choose me.
And we think we can do that ifwe love up on them, if we
(05:34):
forgive them, if we make themmore dinner, if we make more
love to them, if we're shquieter or louder.
And the truth is, if we don'tfirst choose ourselves, we'll
never attract someone who willchoose us.
So that was me supersuccessful.
Two degrees, straight A's,owned a house, hot boyfriend,
good body, the works.
And yet I was in a fetalposition crying because I didn't
(05:57):
even understand I was afull-blown addict.
But not of drugs and alcohol,but of other people's approval,
of society's approval, of thestraight A's or the money or the
body or the success.
And I needed that to be worthy.
So of course I attractedsomeone who couldn't see me for
my depth, or who could, butdidn't have the capacity to hold
(06:21):
it.
And so when he was weak, heleft me there too.
Mary (06:25):
Yeah, wow.
That's a lot.
So that was your wake-up call,right?
It sounds like you were reallystriving for.
You were acknowledging, okay,there's a huge issue here, but
I'm just gonna keep on doingwhat I think I'm supposed to do
to be the thing that is moreimportant than the other thing
that is really eating up a lotof energy and is really
(06:47):
unhealthy.
Chaya (06:48):
Yeah, well, I was a liar.
See, nobody talks about howwe're all liars at some point in
her life.
I was a full-blown liar.
And I never told a lie toanyone, Marie.
I was like one of those honest,good people with a good heart
and never cheated and like, andyet I lied to myself that this
was okay when it wasn't, that hewas gonna change when he
(07:09):
wasn't, that I could change agrown adult's behavior when I
couldn't.
And so I was in a state of justdishonesty.
And when he left me, I had thismoment of like, how did I
create the situation?
How did I, how am I a part ofthis ridiculously strange
(07:29):
scenario?
Like, what about me created it?
And that's when I became anaddict, not an addict, that's
when I became obsessed aboutaddiction.
I was like, what is addiction?
Because I know he's doing thedrugs.
I've heard about that.
I didn't know aboutcodependency.
Mary (07:44):
Yeah.
Chaya (07:44):
I didn't know that was a thing.
Mary (07:45):
I didn't know anything about it.
So, okay, so many things inthere I want to pull out.
So one is I think you'vementioned the way that I think
we are socialized as women towhat we're supposed to be.
And I think a lot of that is wehave been taught through a lot
of messages that we're supposedto earn love, right?
We learn that really well.
(08:06):
Like, here's I'm supposed tolook this certain way, I'm
supposed to do this certainthing because I need to earn it.
What do you think about that?
Chaya (08:14):
I think that it's a big part of parenting in the school
systems.
I think I'm a really, reallybig advocate of not sending
children to schools because theyliterally train you since
you're a wee little thing to sitdown, shut up, raise your hand.
You can't pee withoutpermission.
If you do the wrong thing orsay the wrong thing or don't
believe what we're trying toteach you, um, there's gonna be
(08:36):
lashback, and you're literallytrapped to a desk with an
authority figure saying, youknow what, the only way
someone's ever gonna be proud ofyou is if you get an A on this
test.
And essentially that happensfrom like pretty young of an
age.
And so we're trained to justput our worth and our pride and
our and our visions of love insomething external.
(09:00):
And so, yeah, women and men aretrained that we need to earn
love from our parents whowithdraw it when we do the wrong
thing, which is why I'm supercareful with that with my kids.
I'm like, you made a mistake.
I love you anyway.
No matter what you do, good orbad, you're always good inside,
and mommy loves you no matterwhat.
Doesn't mean I don't get pissedat them, but I say that all the
(09:21):
time.
unknown (09:22):
Yeah.
Chaya (09:23):
So yeah, we're definitely trained to earn love and it
distorts then who we attract,like what you were saying.
Because we think that, well, ifwe are good looking or if we do
have this, then of course he'llwant me.
But only somebody who is weakwill want such a strong woman.
Cause again, there's like thisperfect dance of insecurity
(09:43):
instead of intimacy.
Mary (09:45):
Yeah, I think you raised some good points.
You know, I worked in publicschools for 20 years, so I do
believe in public education.
However, I also recognize thatthe longer we have this system,
the more it becomes aboutassessments and learning the
curriculum that's decided andseeing other schools where
(10:07):
there's more of it used the wordmessy earlier.
I think there's more of weallow students to be messier, be
who they are, because I saythis all the time because I'm a
nature girl.
We know who we are when we'reyoung.
And as we get older, there maybe things, and I'll say,
especially as women, where don'tdo that because that's weird,
or don't do that because itdoesn't make you look pretty, or
(10:29):
you know, don't ugly cry, oryou know, all of those things.
And, you know, I think thatchips away at it.
So the other thing that Iwanted to point out in what you
said was the term codependency.
And I think we have a reallyvaried understanding of what
that is.
And ironically, I think socialmedia, the more information
that's out there, the moreconfused we are.
(10:51):
So tell us how do you definecodependency and why do you
refer to that as an addiction?
Chaya (10:58):
Well, it really is an addiction and it's a disease,
just the same way as an addictto heroin or cocaine or anything
that's more obvious.
Because, you know, what anaddict does is you, you know,
they lose sleep over being highand then the withdrawal and then
needing to get the drugs and gohigh and then and then again
low, right?
And so that's essentially theircycle of life.
(11:19):
They need to control themselvesthrough an outside substance.
That's how they deal with theirshame, depression, anger,
traumas, whatever they're goingthrough, that's the way they
function.
Okay.
Anything outside of theirfeelings, a high, a low, and a
repeat.
And codependency is addiction.
We lose sleep also.
We also obsess, right?
(11:41):
So the drug addict's like,gotta get my drug today.
How do I get it?
Who do I call?
Where's my dealer?
Oh, he's out of town.
What's the other dealer?
Right.
And we do that too.
Where is he?
What's he doing?
Who's he with?
How can I reach him?
How many times do I have tocall him?
How do I get him to stay withme?
Maybe I have to get pregnant,maybe I have to get married,
maybe I have to sleep with himmore, maybe I have to lose
weight.
We're obsessing about somethingoutside of ourselves to control
(12:05):
our own shame, fears,insecurities, vulnerabilities.
And then we go, hi.
Oh my God, he texted me back.
Oh my God, he called me.
He said he loved me.
He said it's gonna work out.
He's gonna go to therapy, he'sgonna go to AA.
Oh, I think it's gonna be okay.
Oh shit.
He just drank, he just watchedporn, he just left me.
I don't know where he is.
It's 2 a.m.
He still didn't pay the bill,whatever every individual
(12:27):
woman's story is.
And you go down and you go upand you go down and you rinse
and repeat, and it is literallyan illness because it rips you
away from yourself.
It rips you away from love andit rips you away from from
enjoying life.
And so when you see an attickilling themselves, maybe it's a
little physically moregrotesque, but a codependency is
(12:48):
just emotionally the samegrotesque.
You just can't see it as wellbecause we're always chasing
success while we sufferinternally.
Mary (12:57):
Well, and I think in imbued in that too, is the idea
that if you love somebody, thenyou stay and you quote, help
them.
Chaya (13:07):
Yeah, it's the worst ever.
Mary (13:08):
It's a horrible idea.
Yeah.
No, keep going.
Chaya (13:12):
I didn't mean to interrupt you.
I was like, You didn't.
Mary (13:14):
I was sort of pausing for you to comment because I think
that we have so many narratives.
And I think one of them forwomen is the word selfish.
I hear that from my clients allthe time.
If I do this, because we tendto be, you know, um, socialized
as caretakers, if I do thisthing for myself, then I'm
afraid people will think I'mselfish.
And I think that idea of loveis so entangled with that word
(13:40):
of selfishness and selfless, allof those types of ideas,
selflessness, selfishness, thatthat's part of that narrative.
I think we're taught.
Chaya (13:49):
Yeah.
And I think that's why, youknow, people like Louise Hay and
me and certain people aretrying, and Mel Robbins are
trying to go back to the basicsof like, you only have you, you
need to love yourself and yourlife is your destiny, not trying
to make it work.
One of the things that I hatethe most, because like I stopped
watching it, but love is blindon Netflix.
We're gonna fight for love.
(14:10):
Will you fight for love?
I'm gonna fight, even if wefight, even if we have none of
the same values, even if youtotally screw up, I'm gonna
fight for love.
Will you fight for love?
And I'm like, oh my God, ew,like love, there's no fighting
in it.
Like Layla Hermosy and AlexHermozzi, which are very big
marketers for anyone who don'tknow, um, and they're married,
or like, people need to stopnormalizing fighting or
(14:32):
arguments.
Like, there's a differencebetween an argument in a
marriage or a quarrel orsomething that you have to work
out or a challenge, butfighting, where there's like
intensity and negativity orname-calling or emotional
withdrawal or threatening ofleaving the relationship, all
that fighting stuff is so umlike taking your inner child and
(14:53):
like shackling her to thatperson because you become
addicted to the hope that oneday they'll choose you.
It's like the intermittentpositive reinforcement that
causes gamblers and addicts tojust lose their whole life.
They're just like, maybe it'sjust gonna work.
And so we literally becomephysiologically addicted to
(15:13):
these relationships because,like, maybe the next time it'll
be okay.
But it's never okay.
Mary (15:18):
Yeah.
And that up and down you'retalking about, you know, it's
kind of like when we hear theding of a text or all that is a
dopamine hit.
And so when you talk aboutaddiction, there is chemical
stuff happening in our brain,especially in new love, that
excitement.
And, you know, we'resimplifying what a long-term
(15:39):
love really looks like.
But those initial reactions to,you know, the the effort we
made, or oh, we hear that's whyso many people look at their
phone when they're driving,because it nearly is an
irresistible addiction to getthat next dopamine hit because
it feels so good to be in love.
And the that chaos often comesfrom someone's family, that if
(16:02):
their their home life waschaotic, it's comfortable to be
in that, but that doesn't meanit's not toxic.
Chaya (16:09):
Yeah.
And sometimes when we've hadtoxicity with our parents or
with a trauma in life or withour environment, the toxicity
feels familiar.
And our brain is wired to stayin familiar.
It's not wired to stay inhealthy and happy in spiritual
growth.
It's wired to stay in what youknow because the brain says,
(16:33):
well, if you know this and ithasn't killed you yet, stay.
That's it.
It's so our brains are so umnot very advanced.
And but our soul is and our gutis and our intuition.
So yeah, like it's veryaddictive and we very much feel
um like it's the attention wecrave.
(16:53):
And the truth is, we like humanbeings are wired for attention.
We genuinely need it.
Like the monkey babies who weregiven food and water and
shelter, but then they weredeprived from attention and a
snuggle.
They died, like they didn'tmake it.
So human beings have this realneed that we aren't educated
about.
You need a hug, you need love,you need attention.
(17:14):
And when you don't know how togive it to yourself because you
were never educated that it'sgenerated from yourself, then
you have this huge life need andyou're like, oh, someone,
someone gave me attention onInstagram, someone gave me
attention on Facebook, oh, helooked at me, oh, he wanted me.
And it's really filling a needfor survival.
Yeah.
But if we don't learn that it'sgenerated from ourselves, then
(17:36):
we're always kind of drainingour energies, hoping something
or someone will give us that fixwe need.
Mary (17:43):
Yeah.
And so one of the things that Ireally try to do on my show is
I have so many people that areinspiring and you're so
passionate in what you'retalking about.
And I think a lot of times, andI can go back to my therapy
office, people are like, but howdo I do this?
How do I do this?
So let's talk a little bitabout how do you know when it's
(18:03):
time to walk away?
Okay.
Chaya (18:06):
So first I always say, like, first of all, you know.
First of all, you really justknow.
Because if you're even thinkingabout walking away, you
probably should walk away.
Nobody in a really healthy,stable, predictable marriage or
relationship thinks frequentlyabout walking away.
So if you're thinking about it,you probably just are afraid.
And your fear of the unknown istrapping you in the familiarity
(18:26):
of the known.
Um, but so first of all, ifthey so if he has active
addiction, that's an easy out.
If he has active mental healthissues that aren't um being
addressed, like he refuses totake medication.
So let's talk about activeaddiction because I think it's
one of the most common.
Um, if he's drinking too much,a lot of women don't even know
(18:48):
the signs of drinking.
They're like, oh, he drinks abeer every day or two beers
every day.
What's a beer?
But if he's constantly alteringhis state of mind and his
reality and removing himselfaway from himself by just
altering it, even a little bit,a lot of it, that already shows
you there's something soseverely wrong with his
(19:09):
connection and intimacy withhimself that he's okay giving
himself disconnection and pain.
And therefore he's going to dothat with you.
So you want to just see like,is this even something he's
willing to go to therapy for ortreatment for on his own?
Because as women, we thinkwe're powerful, godly humans,
(19:29):
and we are, just not necessarilywith the wrong partners.
Um, and we think we can tellthem what to do.
But if so, if he doesn't wanton his own to heal and change,
there's really not much you cando.
So see what his behaviors are.
And if you don't want to becomethat, if you don't want your
children to become that, if youdon't want your son to mimic and
(19:52):
just literally merge into hisbehavior, you should probably
leave because I genuinelybelieve in true love.
I have it in my husband in mymarriage after my whole adult
life of never having it andthese unhealthy relationships
we're talking about.
And so, yeah, you can totallystay in the highs and lows and
then just focus on the highs,which most people do.
(20:12):
We have a good marriage.
He cheats on me once a week,but besides for that, it's a
really good marriage.
I'm not even joking.
I've heard this many a time.
And so I know now after workingon myself what a beautiful true
love looks like.
It's so safe and I could cry.
It's so safe and calming andnon-threatening, and like you
(20:34):
can breathe easy every day thatI want every woman to do the
healing work where they learnhow to love themselves so much
that they release the toxicityto eventually attract someone
who's gonna have the samecapacity and love them as well.
So, in general, yes, you shouldprobably, probably leave most
of the time.
Mary (20:55):
Yeah.
And I think the other side ofthe coin, what you're talking
about, yeah, making thattransition to something that is
healthy, that can feel reallyuncomfortable because you you
alluded to this earlier.
We're waiting, like we'rewaiting for the disappointment.
We're waiting.
So that trust has been soeroded.
(21:16):
So we talked about when whatare the signs to leave.
So, what are the signs to stay?
Like, how do you start to kindof allow yourself into that more
calm space, the trusting andgrounded space with someone?
Chaya (21:33):
You have to see it from him without you.
You just have to step back andbe feminine.
And if you step back and notput your two cents in, your
input, your dreams, your ideas,your hopes, your wants for the
relationship and how hard youworked and how long you've been
together, and don't let us gonow.
And we love each other so much,and we've done this for 10
(21:55):
years, all the things that womenput into the reason.
If you can step back and justobserve in a feminine loving
space, I call it theinvestigator versus the painter.
An investigator is just like,let me see this situation.
And a painter's like, let mepaint this ugly picture pink,
and they take out all theirpaint and like color over the
picture.
Yeah.
Um, and you see that hischaracter on his own is
(22:17):
something that he values growthin.
So he is saying, I want togrow, but not saying it.
He's doing it, his words alignwith his actions.
He's not like, I want to quitsmoking pot or pointer alcohol.
He's actually not buying itanymore.
So if you take yourself out andyou're not an addict of hope
(22:39):
and love, like we all could be,and you observe his behavior and
you see on his own, as a grownindependent man with his own
autonomy, with his own decisionmaking, he is making positive
decisions, even if they're tiny,even if they're small, to
better himself, to better hisgrowth, to get help, to get a
(23:00):
therapist to stop this, it'sworth a consideration of working
with that individual and thendeveloping tools and skills and
communications and how to betterrelate.
But if your kids hate him, getout.
Mary (23:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if you're starting over, andthis is really what I I kind of
want to um focus on a littlebit.
So you're um you're you're havethe realization, I can't keep,
I can't keep this pattern.
I've had actually women say tome who have come out of really
unhealthy relationships, I am soafraid that I'm gonna find the
(23:40):
same thing.
And it's hard to to help themrecognize that they can be
empowered to make decisions andtrust themselves because you
said it earlier.
We already know.
We already know when somethingisn't right, but we're gonna
take out that paintbrush andwe're gonna try to pretty it up
because that's what we'resocialized to do.
(24:01):
So, how would you help someonethat's that let's say when they
were they get to a point whereyou were where you're like, holy
crap, like that's not working.
I need to step onto a differentpath.
How do you help them trustthemselves?
Chaya (24:15):
So for for I would I would say three things.
Great question.
One is you need to know veryrealistically, you will attract
the same person if you don'tchange.
I had to hear for years.
Nothing changes if nothingchanges with this, which is a
12-step program slogan.
I didn't get it for yearsbecause I went to the room.
(24:36):
So first they have to know thatfear is valid.
If you, if nothing changes,nothing changes.
If you don't learn how to loveyourself so much, you hear your
own feelings and your ownintuition that you then want to
protect yourself and walk awayfrom people or things that hurt
you.
It will repeat.
(24:56):
So, therefore, because it's areal valid fear, you need real
valid help.
You're not meant to do this onyour own.
It's not for you to do it onyour own.
Get a coach like me, like you,right?
We study this.
I work with women like this, Iknow it inside and out.
Go to the programs, which aretotally free.
You're like, I don't have moneyto pay for a therapist, a
(25:17):
coach.
Fine.
Go to the programs.
They're 100% free and anonymousand learn and hear yourself in
other people so that you don'thave to be like, oh, I'm just
gonna have to trust me, but Idon't know me.
Get to know yourself inrelation to hearing your story
repeated in so many women whoare just like you.
So when it comes into yourlife, you can be like, oh, I
(25:40):
feel it, I've seen it, I'veheard it more.
You shift internally throughchanging your environment and
your stories and yourvulnerability.
So one, know it's really real.
Two, get real help.
If you have money, hire acoach.
If you have money plus, go tothe programs.
And the other thing is justknow that you only attract, you
don't even have to worry becauseif you do that and then get a
(26:04):
mentor from the program, get asponsor.
No, if you do that, the onlyreason you attracted someone is
because we don't attract what wewant.
We attract who we are.
And I have to say that againbecause it's really important.
For anyone who's listening andyou're worried, like I dated
this, I he was such an a-hole,like he can't believe what did I
do to attract such a loser ofthis?
And I didn't see it in thebeginning.
First of all, you did and youlied to yourself.
(26:25):
So don't worry.
And then, second of all, don'tworry because we don't attract
what we want.
Nobody wants to be cheated onor beaten or abused or
neglected.
And that's what mostly happensin relationships.
But if you don't beat yourselfup, if you don't abandon
yourself, if you don't lie toyourself, if you start hearing
and honoring your voice, whichmeans moving away from people
(26:48):
and jobs and things that hurtyou, then you don't even have to
worry because again, you'rejust gonna attract what you are,
not what you want.
So if you start using yourvoice and saying, I'm not
comfortable with that, oh, youdon't want to get married
anytime soon, you just want acasual relationship.
I don't care how hot and richyou are, I'm gonna walk away
because I'm not down to be usedwith no commitment of time or
(27:09):
intention.
Who the heck wants to date fora long period of time without
the intention of commitment?
That's called I am planning forabandonment with delusion of
hope that they will love meenough to change, which doesn't
happen.
And if it does, it's throughtoxicity and and trauma bonds.
So don't worry, get real help.
(27:30):
It is a real issue, but there'sso many resources.
And when you get so cozy-woezywith yourself and you love up on
yourself and you feed yourselfwell and you don't hurt yourself
anymore with your bad thoughtsand criticisms, you won't even
be attracted to the same man whodid it before.
Mary (27:47):
That's great.
I mean, I think you justbrought up so many important
things within that.
And I think we need again tolearn to trust ourselves because
that's why I have the title ofmy podcast is No Shrinking
Violets, because we do start toshrink.
And each time we experiencesomething, like you're talking
about someone who doesn't chooseus, or we try so hard, and then
(28:10):
it's it's really not about us,even though we think it's about
us.
If he, if I was just this nextthing, then I would be enough
for him, and you're enough foryourself, you're enough for the
right person.
And I think that's that is soimportant to know that if you
feel that you are shrinking andtake um inventory of your body,
take inventory of your thoughts.
(28:30):
And if all of those things arepulling inward, there's a lot of
tension, there's a lot ofsomatic symptoms of stomach
aches and headaches, and youknow, all of those things, those
are all clues.
If you need anything to back upyour instinct, which we
shouldn't, but sometimes we do.
And the other thing that I sortof mentioned, you know, it'll
be you'll attract the rightthing.
(28:52):
What do you think about this?
The other thing that we're toldis there's one right person for
everyone.
What do you think about that?
Chaya (28:58):
I'm a huge believer in that.
I'm very not into people whosay it's just a choice.
I personally get like avisceral reaction and I get all
angry inside.
I'm like, no.
Um, I very much believe in God.
I very much believe in souls.
So, first of all, if you don'tbelieve in God or a soul or
soulmates or um purpose, I thinkit's so easy to say there's no
(29:23):
one.
You just find someone you workwith and that you choose each
other every day, which Iliterally effing loathe because
we have a soulmate.
And according to the OldTestament and the oral Torah
part of the Old Testament, wehave seven potential soulmates,
seven potential soulmates.
And basically, how much we growand how much we become
(29:44):
enlightened or connected toourselves and uh work on
ourselves, we basically justmatch one of the seven
soulmates.
And there is something calledthe Zivokagon, which is your
highest potential of love.
And I was like already single,being like, Where's my husband?
Where's my husband?
I realize.
I'm not want to be aloneanymore.
And then I learned about thisconcept as Diva got going, like
(30:04):
your highest potential of love.
And I was like, that's it.
And Louise Hay talks about it alot, also.
She's like, I was like, that'sit.
We're not meant to be marriedlike Stom, like in general.
We're not meant to just havelove.
We're meant to work onourselves so profoundly where
we're comfortable in ourselvesenough to be intimate, like true
intimacy without walls andwithdrawal to attract our soul,
(30:28):
our highest potential of asoulmate to fulfill our purpose.
My husband, who isextraordinary and I love him so
very much, is so perfectlyunified with me for my purpose
in this world.
We do not quarrel or fight ordisagree on any value system in
my whole family, not with ourreligion, not with the
practices, not with the type ofreligion, not with which set,
(30:52):
nothing.
We are so in sync that my lifeis filled with joy and gratitude
and like a fish who swims, likeseamless productivity.
And I'm not saying we don'tfight.
I'm not saying we haven't hadbad fights.
I'm not saying we don't workthrough stuff.
I'm not saying I'm not human.
Yes, human challenges, uh,crazy shit.
(31:13):
But like also never a fear thathe would leave me or hurt me
through all of my hard moments.
And we had hard moments.
I was postpartum and insane,you know, real hard moments.
But never was I afraid of himwith like leaving me ever or
resorting to um an unhealthybehavior.
(31:34):
Like with my exes, I'm like,oh, if we fight, he's gonna go
watch porn.
If we fight, he's gonna gosmoke up.
If we fight, he's gonna go dodrugs and it's gonna be my
fault.
And I don't want him to do thedrugs, so I'm not gonna get my
husband.
I can go through any emotion asintense as I can by nature, and
he will, and he never withdrawshis love.
And his purpose of his life andwhat he does in this world is
(31:56):
so unified and in sync with meand my vision that I very much
believe in God and in soulmatesand in the concept that was
created, not from me, but that Iwas taught through infinite
wisdom that we genuinely haveone best soulmate for our
purpose in this world.
Mary (32:12):
Yeah.
Well, and I would say foranyone, like you mentioned,
someone may not believe incertain spirituality or certain
religions, but I think the whatshoots really through the heart
of exactly what you said is bybeing the best self you can be.
And that even goes to Maslow'shierarchy of needs,
self-actualization is what, youknow, as a psychologist, he's
(32:34):
like, that's what we strive for.
That's how you live the fullestlife.
And so that really does cutthrough all of this because
regardless of what you believe,if you connect with your highest
purpose, your potential, andthen you expect to attract
something that's going to mirrorthat because we do attract, we
(32:54):
do attract something thatmirrors.
Like I started this whole thingwith that, you know, I
attracted a partner that didn'tneed to be in the marriage
because I was convinced I didn'tneed a partner.
And so I got exactly what Isigned up for.
And that's when it's like,okay, I need to do something
different.
So I think, you know, you'resaying that beautifully, like to
(33:16):
be this highest level ofyourself that you can be, that's
how you bring a partner in thatis what you really want to have
in your life.
Yeah.
Chaya (33:26):
And I think that just from being in program, no matter
what religion, race, heritageyou come from, the beauty of the
12-step program rooms is thatit's a spiritual growth process
that just believes in the God ofour understanding that there
really is a power greater thanus.
(33:47):
And I think that really is anessential component to every man
and woman of every religion andrace.
Because if we believe we're theones in control, man, will we
feel like so pessimistic attimes and so hard on ourselves
that we can't make things workall the time that we want.
But from Louise Hay toHermoses, I mean, these are just
really big people to Tony'sthat all of the program, the one
(34:10):
thing they have in common is abelief in God, in grace, and in
something bigger than us that wecan rely upon for good and for
healing.
And all of the greatest peopleI know, and all of the greatest
people that I know in marriages,again, Tony Hermozzi, all the
very well-known people, BobProctor and myself, they made a
(34:32):
list and a long ass list.
So I want your listeners tohear that self-actualization
literally means what do I want?
What do I want?
Not what does my mom want fromme, not what was my dad, what is
my brother, my boyfriend, whatdo I want from me?
Self-actualization is knowingyour list because it's knowing
your purpose.
What do I want to create in mylife?
When I'm on my deathbed, whatdo I have?
(34:53):
What do I want to have done?
Where do I want to have been?
And when you have your valuesystems and your belief and your
God and your spirituality, andyou become so clear on what that
is for you and that means toyou because you've sat with
yourself and you wrote it down.
What do I believe in God?
What's my faith?
What do I want to create in mylife?
How do I want to practice myfaith?
How do I wanna be a goodperson?
(35:15):
And you write it down, you havea list of who you need, who you
want, not who you need, who youwant.
And that is that actualizationthat we're speaking of.
Mary (35:26):
Yeah.
Okay, so there's a questionwe're gonna answer closer to the
end.
And you kind of just did, butwe're gonna have you sum it up
in a minute.
What is why is finding theright guy the worst way to go
about this?
But before we get there, tellus where to find you and what
you can do to help women andmen, right?
Chaya (35:45):
So if you're listening and you are ready for change in
your life and you don't want todo it alone, then you can reach
me at Instagram at Epic LoveExpert.
So Epic E P-I-C LoveL-O-V-Expert E X-P-R-T.
So at Epic LoveExpert, and youcan send me a DM and you say, I
(36:05):
heard you on your podcast, and Iwant help.
The first thing that I want thelisteners to hear is that you
we all need help.
I think from the moment we'realive to the moment we pass, we
need guidance and mentors andthe right ones.
And there's so much bad adviceoutside, like you said.
So first just want to chooseyourself.
(36:25):
Second thing, after you want tochoose yourself, no, you're not
meant to do it alone in yourown head with your own
struggles, being strong andself-dependent and not and not
weak and messy.
And then the third thing is ifyou want help with someone who
can genuinely help you attractthe right relationships in
business and in love, then sendme that DM at Epic Love Expert.
(36:46):
But you have to know it's aninvestment.
I won't work for you if you'renot ready to pay.
I won't work for you if youwant to blame your ex.
I will work for you if you wantyou.
If you don't even know how toget to you, but you know you
want you, then send me that DMbecause you deserve an
extraordinary life and I knowhow to get you there.
Mary (37:04):
Oh, I'm very inspired.
That's great.
That is great.
And I love that you're saying,you know, someone needs to be
clear on where they are and whattheir motivation is, because a
lot of that excuse making andblaming, that's not going to get
them there.
So I love that.
And of course, I'm gonna linkit in the show notes.
Um, and also I would askanybody who has been loving this
(37:26):
episode to please share it withsomeone or take a second and
scroll down and give a rating.
And if you have time, give acomment.
Okay, now to end, let's answerthe question, which I think kind
of we already did, but let'ssum up why is trying to find the
right guy the worst way to goabout this dating thing?
Chaya (37:45):
Because I think the key word in that sentence that's
wrong is find.
If you are a woman who's like,I need love, I just don't want
to be single anymore, I need theright guy.
Where is he?
All my other friends aremarried and having babies.
What about me?
You're already in a state ofdisconnection from yourself and
disconnection from God.
Like God forgot about me.
What's wrong with me?
(38:06):
Why don't I have what I need?
You're already in a state ofvoid, of weakness, of something
wrong with you, of masculinityin the sense that you're going
out of yourself and you'retrying to find is he gonna love
me?
Is he gonna love me?
Is he gonna think I'm hotenough?
Is he gonna want me?
And you're already in a stateof void, weakness, and masculine
energy, which is going outsideof yourself to conquer, find,
(38:30):
and bring.
And so, a real healthy, youknow, for a woman, I guess for
the women listening, men, youcan switch it.
Um, just be feminine of like, Ialready love me.
I've already got me.
If he doesn't want me or isready to commit to me, that's
okay.
I've got me and I'm ready tocommit to myself every day.
(38:50):
And so the key word really isnot to have the word find, but
to attract.
I attract the right guy who'sgonna see me, who's gonna see my
true authenticity because I'mliving a joyful life aligned
with my purpose and who's goingto want me and pursue me.
And when you want to justattract the right relationships,
(39:13):
you're already in a sense ofbeing more grounded and
connected with yourself and Godthat you're not going to allow
abuse and allow someone to toywith you because you've
increased your worth.
Mary (39:26):
Yeah.
That's great advice.
I am so big on the words thatwe use.
And so I think making that oneswitch from find to attract is
so powerful and we underestimatethat little mind shift.
But I think if people can thinkin those terms that they're not
out there always like looking,is he wearing a ring?
We sort of, when we're lookingfor that love, we're always
(39:49):
searching.
And I think if you can justlean back and think about I'm
gonna attract it when I havereached that point for me, then
that is so powerful.
Chaya (40:01):
Yeah.
And it's not only about needinglove from one man who will be
your true soulmate, it's alsohow do I live every day in love?
Even though I'm in anextraordinarily happy, healthy
marriage, I still have to loveup on myself daily.
I still have to nurture myself.
I still write myself love notesevery day.
I still buy myself flowers.
(40:22):
I need me because if I lose me,how can how much can I show up
for him and my children and mycompany and my clients?
So again, it's not just like Ineed to attract the right guy,
and it's like this moment oftime.
You're not in it for themilestone that minute you get
married.
You're in it to learn how tolove.
And that's a lifelong processthat starts with you loving up
(40:44):
on yourself, giving yourselfgrace and forgiveness and
kindness every day.
Mary (40:48):
What a beautiful message.
Thank you so much for beinghere, Kai.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, Mary.
It was such an honor.
And thank you, everyone, forlistening.
And until next time, you knowwhat I'm gonna say.
Go out into the world and bethe amazing, resilient, vibrant
violet that you are.
Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
I'm your host, Mary Rothwell,licensed therapist and certified
integrative mental healthpractitioner.
I've created a space where wecelebrate the intuition and
power of women who want to breakfree from limiting narratives.
We'll explore all realms ofwellness, what it means to take
up space unapologetically, andhow your essential nature is key
(00:28):
to living life on your terms.
It's time to own your space,trust your nature, and flourish.
Let's dive in.
Hey Violets, welcome to theshow.
So I had a pretty varied datinglife.
I didn't get married for thefirst time until I was 37.
I was pretty self-sufficient,which seems like a great way to
(00:51):
enter a relationship, right?
I supported myself, I knew howto navigate the world, I owned
my house, I was successfulprofessionally.
But ironically, knowing myselfand being independent actually
meant that I ignored many redflags.
I didn't know that until I wasfiling divorce papers.
See, I didn't need anyone.
(01:12):
So there were behaviors that Iexcused because I felt like I
also didn't need a truepartnership, which, of course,
is glaringly, obviouslybullshit.
I see that now.
Anyway, I won't go into all thereasons I settled for my first
husband's limited investment inour marriage.
Those issues, as with many ofour areas where we need to grow,
go back to childhood.
(01:32):
Even after my marriage ended, Iovercorrected in my dating
decisions, but life continued toteach me what I needed to end
up in an equal and strongmarriage today.
I think finding a life partnerfor those who truly want that
can be an exercise in radicalacceptance because it's not like
takeout.
We can't just look at a menuand order what we want.
(01:53):
It's not like an appointmentfor a haircut.
We can't choose the date wewant to meet someone on the
timeline that would work bestfor all of our other plans and
commitments.
My guest today had some of herown struggles in her quest to
find a partner.
So we're going to talk abouthow she recognized that, what
she did to change it, includinga little bit about mindset, and
get some of her best insightsinto how to create the
(02:16):
partnership you truly want.
And one of the questions we'regoing to answer along the way is
why finding the right guy mightbe the worst way to go about
love.
Haya Garcia is a licensedsocial worker and she is on a
mission to change marriagedynamics through training women
and men how to love themselves,re-empower their inner child, be
(02:38):
honest with who's responsiblefor their happiness, educate
them on healthy and unhealthysigns of behavior during the
dating process, and ultimatelyfeel secure and confident in
making the decision on who tomarry that will ensure healthy
dynamics and a safe space foreach to grow and fulfill their
purpose.
Welcome to No Shrinking VioletSkya.
Chaya (02:59):
Hi, Mary.
Mary (03:00):
Thank you so much for having me here.
It's truly an honor.
And I want to tell everyonethat is just listening with no
video that she's standing inthis beautiful space.
She has this lovely lightbehind her that is rainbow-like,
and it's just a beautifulspace.
So I love that.
Okay.
So I wondered if you couldstart by telling us a bit about
(03:22):
your own history and what wasyour wake-up call to start on a
different path towards your ownlove story.
Chaya (03:28):
Yeah.
Well, first of all, listeners,y'all are in the right place if
you want to get to therelationship of your dreams,
because it starts from you.
Mary, what you said about howyou were so independent and
successful that kind of, ofcourse, you married the wrong
man because you didn't needanyone, which took away your
vulnerability, which is the keynecessity and ingredient for
(03:51):
intimacy.
So I also want to likeacknowledge what you just shared
with all of your listeners, andI will respond to your
question.
But it's like women think, oh,I just have to be beautiful.
I just have to be successful.
I just have to be and do and doand do.
But then they miss thatintimacy piece, that
vulnerability, that trueconnection that comes from
(04:12):
messiness, shame, screw-ups.
And it's in that space whereyou feel if you can find someone
who is very safe and you canrely on them never to withdraw
their love when you screw up,but to be consistent, you can
actually have a marriage thatlasts.
Mary (04:29):
Yeah.
Chaya (04:30):
So in answer to your question, I was in fetal
position, crying hysterically,totally numb when I had just
spent all morning getting readyfor my boyfriend at the time.
I put on makeup, I madebreakfast for him, I made
coffee.
I was like, let's read andlearn together.
Let's ins let me inspire you.
(04:51):
Right.
And then I set up everything.
He comes in all like slumpedover or like a good addict.
And he's like, just so youknow, breaking up with you.
I'm gonna go upstate New Yorkto do drugs.
Wow.
And I was like, what?
And so he left.
We had dated a long time.
I always said, choose me ordrugs, right?
(05:12):
Which makes so much sense.
Every woman and their mom atsome point in their unhealthy
life says, choose me or right?
Choose me or the porn, chooseme or the pot, choose me or the
drugs, choose me over your work.
Just choose me.
Like you love me.
Choose me.
And we think we can do that ifwe love up on them, if we
(05:34):
forgive them, if we make themmore dinner, if we make more
love to them, if we're shquieter or louder.
And the truth is, if we don'tfirst choose ourselves, we'll
never attract someone who willchoose us.
So that was me supersuccessful.
Two degrees, straight A's,owned a house, hot boyfriend,
good body, the works.
And yet I was in a fetalposition crying because I didn't
(05:57):
even understand I was afull-blown addict.
But not of drugs and alcohol,but of other people's approval,
of society's approval, of thestraight A's or the money or the
body or the success.
And I needed that to be worthy.
So of course I attractedsomeone who couldn't see me for
my depth, or who could, butdidn't have the capacity to hold
(06:21):
it.
And so when he was weak, heleft me there too.
Mary (06:25):
Yeah, wow.
That's a lot.
So that was your wake-up call,right?
It sounds like you were reallystriving for.
You were acknowledging, okay,there's a huge issue here, but
I'm just gonna keep on doingwhat I think I'm supposed to do
to be the thing that is moreimportant than the other thing
that is really eating up a lotof energy and is really
(06:47):
unhealthy.
Chaya (06:48):
Yeah, well, I was a liar.
See, nobody talks about howwe're all liars at some point in
her life.
I was a full-blown liar.
And I never told a lie toanyone, Marie.
I was like one of those honest,good people with a good heart
and never cheated and like, andyet I lied to myself that this
was okay when it wasn't, that hewas gonna change when he
(07:09):
wasn't, that I could change agrown adult's behavior when I
couldn't.
And so I was in a state of justdishonesty.
And when he left me, I had thismoment of like, how did I
create the situation?
How did I, how am I a part ofthis ridiculously strange
(07:29):
scenario?
Like, what about me created it?
And that's when I became anaddict, not an addict, that's
when I became obsessed aboutaddiction.
I was like, what is addiction?
Because I know he's doing thedrugs.
I've heard about that.
I didn't know aboutcodependency.
Mary (07:44):
Yeah.
Chaya (07:44):
I didn't know that was a thing.
Mary (07:45):
I didn't know anything about it.
So, okay, so many things inthere I want to pull out.
So one is I think you'vementioned the way that I think
we are socialized as women towhat we're supposed to be.
And I think a lot of that is wehave been taught through a lot
of messages that we're supposedto earn love, right?
We learn that really well.
(08:06):
Like, here's I'm supposed tolook this certain way, I'm
supposed to do this certainthing because I need to earn it.
What do you think about that?
Chaya (08:14):
I think that it's a big part of parenting in the school
systems.
I think I'm a really, reallybig advocate of not sending
children to schools because theyliterally train you since
you're a wee little thing to sitdown, shut up, raise your hand.
You can't pee withoutpermission.
If you do the wrong thing orsay the wrong thing or don't
believe what we're trying toteach you, um, there's gonna be
(08:36):
lashback, and you're literallytrapped to a desk with an
authority figure saying, youknow what, the only way
someone's ever gonna be proud ofyou is if you get an A on this
test.
And essentially that happensfrom like pretty young of an
age.
And so we're trained to justput our worth and our pride and
our and our visions of love insomething external.
(09:00):
And so, yeah, women and men aretrained that we need to earn
love from our parents whowithdraw it when we do the wrong
thing, which is why I'm supercareful with that with my kids.
I'm like, you made a mistake.
I love you anyway.
No matter what you do, good orbad, you're always good inside,
and mommy loves you no matterwhat.
Doesn't mean I don't get pissedat them, but I say that all the
(09:21):
time.
unknown (09:22):
Yeah.
Chaya (09:23):
So yeah, we're definitely trained to earn love and it
distorts then who we attract,like what you were saying.
Because we think that, well, ifwe are good looking or if we do
have this, then of course he'llwant me.
But only somebody who is weakwill want such a strong woman.
Cause again, there's like thisperfect dance of insecurity
(09:43):
instead of intimacy.
Mary (09:45):
Yeah, I think you raised some good points.
You know, I worked in publicschools for 20 years, so I do
believe in public education.
However, I also recognize thatthe longer we have this system,
the more it becomes aboutassessments and learning the
curriculum that's decided andseeing other schools where
(10:07):
there's more of it used the wordmessy earlier.
I think there's more of weallow students to be messier, be
who they are, because I saythis all the time because I'm a
nature girl.
We know who we are when we'reyoung.
And as we get older, there maybe things, and I'll say,
especially as women, where don'tdo that because that's weird,
or don't do that because itdoesn't make you look pretty, or
(10:29):
you know, don't ugly cry, oryou know, all of those things.
And, you know, I think thatchips away at it.
So the other thing that Iwanted to point out in what you
said was the term codependency.
And I think we have a reallyvaried understanding of what
that is.
And ironically, I think socialmedia, the more information
that's out there, the moreconfused we are.
(10:51):
So tell us how do you definecodependency and why do you
refer to that as an addiction?
Chaya (10:58):
Well, it really is an addiction and it's a disease,
just the same way as an addictto heroin or cocaine or anything
that's more obvious.
Because, you know, what anaddict does is you, you know,
they lose sleep over being highand then the withdrawal and then
needing to get the drugs and gohigh and then and then again
low, right?
And so that's essentially theircycle of life.
(11:19):
They need to control themselvesthrough an outside substance.
That's how they deal with theirshame, depression, anger,
traumas, whatever they're goingthrough, that's the way they
function.
Okay.
Anything outside of theirfeelings, a high, a low, and a
repeat.
And codependency is addiction.
We lose sleep also.
We also obsess, right?
(11:41):
So the drug addict's like,gotta get my drug today.
How do I get it?
Who do I call?
Where's my dealer?
Oh, he's out of town.
What's the other dealer?
Right.
And we do that too.
Where is he?
What's he doing?
Who's he with?
How can I reach him?
How many times do I have tocall him?
How do I get him to stay withme?
Maybe I have to get pregnant,maybe I have to get married,
maybe I have to sleep with himmore, maybe I have to lose
weight.
We're obsessing about somethingoutside of ourselves to control
(12:05):
our own shame, fears,insecurities, vulnerabilities.
And then we go, hi.
Oh my God, he texted me back.
Oh my God, he called me.
He said he loved me.
He said it's gonna work out.
He's gonna go to therapy, he'sgonna go to AA.
Oh, I think it's gonna be okay.
Oh shit.
He just drank, he just watchedporn, he just left me.
I don't know where he is.
It's 2 a.m.
He still didn't pay the bill,whatever every individual
(12:27):
woman's story is.
And you go down and you go upand you go down and you rinse
and repeat, and it is literallyan illness because it rips you
away from yourself.
It rips you away from love andit rips you away from from
enjoying life.
And so when you see an attickilling themselves, maybe it's a
little physically moregrotesque, but a codependency is
(12:48):
just emotionally the samegrotesque.
You just can't see it as wellbecause we're always chasing
success while we sufferinternally.
Mary (12:57):
Well, and I think in imbued in that too, is the idea
that if you love somebody, thenyou stay and you quote, help
them.
Chaya (13:07):
Yeah, it's the worst ever.
Mary (13:08):
It's a horrible idea.
Yeah.
No, keep going.
Chaya (13:12):
I didn't mean to interrupt you.
I was like, You didn't.
Mary (13:14):
I was sort of pausing for you to comment because I think
that we have so many narratives.
And I think one of them forwomen is the word selfish.
I hear that from my clients allthe time.
If I do this, because we tendto be, you know, um, socialized
as caretakers, if I do thisthing for myself, then I'm
afraid people will think I'mselfish.
And I think that idea of loveis so entangled with that word
(13:40):
of selfishness and selfless, allof those types of ideas,
selflessness, selfishness, thatthat's part of that narrative.
I think we're taught.
Chaya (13:49):
Yeah.
And I think that's why, youknow, people like Louise Hay and
me and certain people aretrying, and Mel Robbins are
trying to go back to the basicsof like, you only have you, you
need to love yourself and yourlife is your destiny, not trying
to make it work.
One of the things that I hatethe most, because like I stopped
watching it, but love is blindon Netflix.
We're gonna fight for love.
(14:10):
Will you fight for love?
I'm gonna fight, even if wefight, even if we have none of
the same values, even if youtotally screw up, I'm gonna
fight for love.
Will you fight for love?
And I'm like, oh my God, ew,like love, there's no fighting
in it.
Like Layla Hermosy and AlexHermozzi, which are very big
marketers for anyone who don'tknow, um, and they're married,
or like, people need to stopnormalizing fighting or
(14:32):
arguments.
Like, there's a differencebetween an argument in a
marriage or a quarrel orsomething that you have to work
out or a challenge, butfighting, where there's like
intensity and negativity orname-calling or emotional
withdrawal or threatening ofleaving the relationship, all
that fighting stuff is so umlike taking your inner child and
(14:53):
like shackling her to thatperson because you become
addicted to the hope that oneday they'll choose you.
It's like the intermittentpositive reinforcement that
causes gamblers and addicts tojust lose their whole life.
They're just like, maybe it'sjust gonna work.
And so we literally becomephysiologically addicted to
(15:13):
these relationships because,like, maybe the next time it'll
be okay.
But it's never okay.
Mary (15:18):
Yeah.
And that up and down you'retalking about, you know, it's
kind of like when we hear theding of a text or all that is a
dopamine hit.
And so when you talk aboutaddiction, there is chemical
stuff happening in our brain,especially in new love, that
excitement.
And, you know, we'resimplifying what a long-term
(15:39):
love really looks like.
But those initial reactions to,you know, the the effort we
made, or oh, we hear that's whyso many people look at their
phone when they're driving,because it nearly is an
irresistible addiction to getthat next dopamine hit because
it feels so good to be in love.
And the that chaos often comesfrom someone's family, that if
(16:02):
their their home life waschaotic, it's comfortable to be
in that, but that doesn't meanit's not toxic.
Chaya (16:09):
Yeah.
And sometimes when we've hadtoxicity with our parents or
with a trauma in life or withour environment, the toxicity
feels familiar.
And our brain is wired to stayin familiar.
It's not wired to stay inhealthy and happy in spiritual
growth.
It's wired to stay in what youknow because the brain says,
(16:33):
well, if you know this and ithasn't killed you yet, stay.
That's it.
It's so our brains are so umnot very advanced.
And but our soul is and our gutis and our intuition.
So yeah, like it's veryaddictive and we very much feel
um like it's the attention wecrave.
(16:53):
And the truth is, we like humanbeings are wired for attention.
We genuinely need it.
Like the monkey babies who weregiven food and water and
shelter, but then they weredeprived from attention and a
snuggle.
They died, like they didn'tmake it.
So human beings have this realneed that we aren't educated
about.
You need a hug, you need love,you need attention.
(17:14):
And when you don't know how togive it to yourself because you
were never educated that it'sgenerated from yourself, then
you have this huge life need andyou're like, oh, someone,
someone gave me attention onInstagram, someone gave me
attention on Facebook, oh, helooked at me, oh, he wanted me.
And it's really filling a needfor survival.
Yeah.
But if we don't learn that it'sgenerated from ourselves, then
(17:36):
we're always kind of drainingour energies, hoping something
or someone will give us that fixwe need.
Mary (17:43):
Yeah.
And so one of the things that Ireally try to do on my show is
I have so many people that areinspiring and you're so
passionate in what you'retalking about.
And I think a lot of times, andI can go back to my therapy
office, people are like, but howdo I do this?
How do I do this?
So let's talk a little bitabout how do you know when it's
(18:03):
time to walk away?
Okay.
Chaya (18:06):
So first I always say, like, first of all, you know.
First of all, you really justknow.
Because if you're even thinkingabout walking away, you
probably should walk away.
Nobody in a really healthy,stable, predictable marriage or
relationship thinks frequentlyabout walking away.
So if you're thinking about it,you probably just are afraid.
And your fear of the unknown istrapping you in the familiarity
(18:26):
of the known.
Um, but so first of all, ifthey so if he has active
addiction, that's an easy out.
If he has active mental healthissues that aren't um being
addressed, like he refuses totake medication.
So let's talk about activeaddiction because I think it's
one of the most common.
Um, if he's drinking too much,a lot of women don't even know
(18:48):
the signs of drinking.
They're like, oh, he drinks abeer every day or two beers
every day.
What's a beer?
But if he's constantly alteringhis state of mind and his
reality and removing himselfaway from himself by just
altering it, even a little bit,a lot of it, that already shows
you there's something soseverely wrong with his
(19:09):
connection and intimacy withhimself that he's okay giving
himself disconnection and pain.
And therefore he's going to dothat with you.
So you want to just see like,is this even something he's
willing to go to therapy for ortreatment for on his own?
Because as women, we thinkwe're powerful, godly humans,
(19:29):
and we are, just not necessarilywith the wrong partners.
Um, and we think we can tellthem what to do.
But if so, if he doesn't wanton his own to heal and change,
there's really not much you cando.
So see what his behaviors are.
And if you don't want to becomethat, if you don't want your
children to become that, if youdon't want your son to mimic and
(19:52):
just literally merge into hisbehavior, you should probably
leave because I genuinelybelieve in true love.
I have it in my husband in mymarriage after my whole adult
life of never having it andthese unhealthy relationships
we're talking about.
And so, yeah, you can totallystay in the highs and lows and
then just focus on the highs,which most people do.
(20:12):
We have a good marriage.
He cheats on me once a week,but besides for that, it's a
really good marriage.
I'm not even joking.
I've heard this many a time.
And so I know now after workingon myself what a beautiful true
love looks like.
It's so safe and I could cry.
It's so safe and calming andnon-threatening, and like you
(20:34):
can breathe easy every day thatI want every woman to do the
healing work where they learnhow to love themselves so much
that they release the toxicityto eventually attract someone
who's gonna have the samecapacity and love them as well.
So, in general, yes, you shouldprobably, probably leave most
of the time.
Mary (20:55):
Yeah.
And I think the other side ofthe coin, what you're talking
about, yeah, making thattransition to something that is
healthy, that can feel reallyuncomfortable because you you
alluded to this earlier.
We're waiting, like we'rewaiting for the disappointment.
We're waiting.
So that trust has been soeroded.
(21:16):
So we talked about when whatare the signs to leave.
So, what are the signs to stay?
Like, how do you start to kindof allow yourself into that more
calm space, the trusting andgrounded space with someone?
Chaya (21:33):
You have to see it from him without you.
You just have to step back andbe feminine.
And if you step back and notput your two cents in, your
input, your dreams, your ideas,your hopes, your wants for the
relationship and how hard youworked and how long you've been
together, and don't let us gonow.
And we love each other so much,and we've done this for 10
(21:55):
years, all the things that womenput into the reason.
If you can step back and justobserve in a feminine loving
space, I call it theinvestigator versus the painter.
An investigator is just like,let me see this situation.
And a painter's like, let mepaint this ugly picture pink,
and they take out all theirpaint and like color over the
picture.
Yeah.
Um, and you see that hischaracter on his own is
(22:17):
something that he values growthin.
So he is saying, I want togrow, but not saying it.
He's doing it, his words alignwith his actions.
He's not like, I want to quitsmoking pot or pointer alcohol.
He's actually not buying itanymore.
So if you take yourself out andyou're not an addict of hope
(22:39):
and love, like we all could be,and you observe his behavior and
you see on his own, as a grownindependent man with his own
autonomy, with his own decisionmaking, he is making positive
decisions, even if they're tiny,even if they're small, to
better himself, to better hisgrowth, to get help, to get a
(23:00):
therapist to stop this, it'sworth a consideration of working
with that individual and thendeveloping tools and skills and
communications and how to betterrelate.
But if your kids hate him, getout.
Mary (23:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if you're starting over, andthis is really what I I kind of
want to um focus on a littlebit.
So you're um you're you're havethe realization, I can't keep,
I can't keep this pattern.
I've had actually women say tome who have come out of really
unhealthy relationships, I am soafraid that I'm gonna find the
(23:40):
same thing.
And it's hard to to help themrecognize that they can be
empowered to make decisions andtrust themselves because you
said it earlier.
We already know.
We already know when somethingisn't right, but we're gonna
take out that paintbrush andwe're gonna try to pretty it up
because that's what we'resocialized to do.
(24:01):
So, how would you help someonethat's that let's say when they
were they get to a point whereyou were where you're like, holy
crap, like that's not working.
I need to step onto a differentpath.
How do you help them trustthemselves?
Chaya (24:15):
So for for I would I would say three things.
Great question.
One is you need to know veryrealistically, you will attract
the same person if you don'tchange.
I had to hear for years.
Nothing changes if nothingchanges with this, which is a
12-step program slogan.
I didn't get it for yearsbecause I went to the room.
(24:36):
So first they have to know thatfear is valid.
If you, if nothing changes,nothing changes.
If you don't learn how to loveyourself so much, you hear your
own feelings and your ownintuition that you then want to
protect yourself and walk awayfrom people or things that hurt
you.
It will repeat.
(24:56):
So, therefore, because it's areal valid fear, you need real
valid help.
You're not meant to do this onyour own.
It's not for you to do it onyour own.
Get a coach like me, like you,right?
We study this.
I work with women like this, Iknow it inside and out.
Go to the programs, which aretotally free.
You're like, I don't have moneyto pay for a therapist, a
(25:17):
coach.
Fine.
Go to the programs.
They're 100% free and anonymousand learn and hear yourself in
other people so that you don'thave to be like, oh, I'm just
gonna have to trust me, but Idon't know me.
Get to know yourself inrelation to hearing your story
repeated in so many women whoare just like you.
So when it comes into yourlife, you can be like, oh, I
(25:40):
feel it, I've seen it, I'veheard it more.
You shift internally throughchanging your environment and
your stories and yourvulnerability.
So one, know it's really real.
Two, get real help.
If you have money, hire acoach.
If you have money plus, go tothe programs.
And the other thing is justknow that you only attract, you
don't even have to worry becauseif you do that and then get a
(26:04):
mentor from the program, get asponsor.
No, if you do that, the onlyreason you attracted someone is
because we don't attract what wewant.
We attract who we are.
And I have to say that againbecause it's really important.
For anyone who's listening andyou're worried, like I dated
this, I he was such an a-hole,like he can't believe what did I
do to attract such a loser ofthis?
And I didn't see it in thebeginning.
First of all, you did and youlied to yourself.
(26:25):
So don't worry.
And then, second of all, don'tworry because we don't attract
what we want.
Nobody wants to be cheated onor beaten or abused or
neglected.
And that's what mostly happensin relationships.
But if you don't beat yourselfup, if you don't abandon
yourself, if you don't lie toyourself, if you start hearing
and honoring your voice, whichmeans moving away from people
(26:48):
and jobs and things that hurtyou, then you don't even have to
worry because again, you'rejust gonna attract what you are,
not what you want.
So if you start using yourvoice and saying, I'm not
comfortable with that, oh, youdon't want to get married
anytime soon, you just want acasual relationship.
I don't care how hot and richyou are, I'm gonna walk away
because I'm not down to be usedwith no commitment of time or
(27:09):
intention.
Who the heck wants to date fora long period of time without
the intention of commitment?
That's called I am planning forabandonment with delusion of
hope that they will love meenough to change, which doesn't
happen.
And if it does, it's throughtoxicity and and trauma bonds.
So don't worry, get real help.
(27:30):
It is a real issue, but there'sso many resources.
And when you get so cozy-woezywith yourself and you love up on
yourself and you feed yourselfwell and you don't hurt yourself
anymore with your bad thoughtsand criticisms, you won't even
be attracted to the same man whodid it before.
Mary (27:47):
That's great.
I mean, I think you justbrought up so many important
things within that.
And I think we need again tolearn to trust ourselves because
that's why I have the title ofmy podcast is No Shrinking
Violets, because we do start toshrink.
And each time we experiencesomething, like you're talking
about someone who doesn't chooseus, or we try so hard, and then
(28:10):
it's it's really not about us,even though we think it's about
us.
If he, if I was just this nextthing, then I would be enough
for him, and you're enough foryourself, you're enough for the
right person.
And I think that's that is soimportant to know that if you
feel that you are shrinking andtake um inventory of your body,
take inventory of your thoughts.
(28:30):
And if all of those things arepulling inward, there's a lot of
tension, there's a lot ofsomatic symptoms of stomach
aches and headaches, and youknow, all of those things, those
are all clues.
If you need anything to back upyour instinct, which we
shouldn't, but sometimes we do.
And the other thing that I sortof mentioned, you know, it'll
be you'll attract the rightthing.
(28:52):
What do you think about this?
The other thing that we're toldis there's one right person for
everyone.
What do you think about that?
Chaya (28:58):
I'm a huge believer in that.
I'm very not into people whosay it's just a choice.
I personally get like avisceral reaction and I get all
angry inside.
I'm like, no.
Um, I very much believe in God.
I very much believe in souls.
So, first of all, if you don'tbelieve in God or a soul or
soulmates or um purpose, I thinkit's so easy to say there's no
(29:23):
one.
You just find someone you workwith and that you choose each
other every day, which Iliterally effing loathe because
we have a soulmate.
And according to the OldTestament and the oral Torah
part of the Old Testament, wehave seven potential soulmates,
seven potential soulmates.
And basically, how much we growand how much we become
(29:44):
enlightened or connected toourselves and uh work on
ourselves, we basically justmatch one of the seven
soulmates.
And there is something calledthe Zivokagon, which is your
highest potential of love.
And I was like already single,being like, Where's my husband?
Where's my husband?
I realize.
I'm not want to be aloneanymore.
And then I learned about thisconcept as Diva got going, like
(30:04):
your highest potential of love.
And I was like, that's it.
And Louise Hay talks about it alot, also.
She's like, I was like, that'sit.
We're not meant to be marriedlike Stom, like in general.
We're not meant to just havelove.
We're meant to work onourselves so profoundly where
we're comfortable in ourselvesenough to be intimate, like true
intimacy without walls andwithdrawal to attract our soul,
(30:28):
our highest potential of asoulmate to fulfill our purpose.
My husband, who isextraordinary and I love him so
very much, is so perfectlyunified with me for my purpose
in this world.
We do not quarrel or fight ordisagree on any value system in
my whole family, not with ourreligion, not with the
practices, not with the type ofreligion, not with which set,
(30:52):
nothing.
We are so in sync that my lifeis filled with joy and gratitude
and like a fish who swims, likeseamless productivity.
And I'm not saying we don'tfight.
I'm not saying we haven't hadbad fights.
I'm not saying we don't workthrough stuff.
I'm not saying I'm not human.
Yes, human challenges, uh,crazy shit.
(31:13):
But like also never a fear thathe would leave me or hurt me
through all of my hard moments.
And we had hard moments.
I was postpartum and insane,you know, real hard moments.
But never was I afraid of himwith like leaving me ever or
resorting to um an unhealthybehavior.
(31:34):
Like with my exes, I'm like,oh, if we fight, he's gonna go
watch porn.
If we fight, he's gonna gosmoke up.
If we fight, he's gonna go dodrugs and it's gonna be my
fault.
And I don't want him to do thedrugs, so I'm not gonna get my
husband.
I can go through any emotion asintense as I can by nature, and
he will, and he never withdrawshis love.
And his purpose of his life andwhat he does in this world is
(31:56):
so unified and in sync with meand my vision that I very much
believe in God and in soulmatesand in the concept that was
created, not from me, but that Iwas taught through infinite
wisdom that we genuinely haveone best soulmate for our
purpose in this world.
Mary (32:12):
Yeah.
Well, and I would say foranyone, like you mentioned,
someone may not believe incertain spirituality or certain
religions, but I think the whatshoots really through the heart
of exactly what you said is bybeing the best self you can be.
And that even goes to Maslow'shierarchy of needs,
self-actualization is what, youknow, as a psychologist, he's
(32:34):
like, that's what we strive for.
That's how you live the fullestlife.
And so that really does cutthrough all of this because
regardless of what you believe,if you connect with your highest
purpose, your potential, andthen you expect to attract
something that's going to mirrorthat because we do attract, we
(32:54):
do attract something thatmirrors.
Like I started this whole thingwith that, you know, I
attracted a partner that didn'tneed to be in the marriage
because I was convinced I didn'tneed a partner.
And so I got exactly what Isigned up for.
And that's when it's like,okay, I need to do something
different.
So I think, you know, you'resaying that beautifully, like to
(33:16):
be this highest level ofyourself that you can be, that's
how you bring a partner in thatis what you really want to have
in your life.
Yeah.
Chaya (33:26):
And I think that just from being in program, no matter
what religion, race, heritageyou come from, the beauty of the
12-step program rooms is thatit's a spiritual growth process
that just believes in the God ofour understanding that there
really is a power greater thanus.
(33:47):
And I think that really is anessential component to every man
and woman of every religion andrace.
Because if we believe we're theones in control, man, will we
feel like so pessimistic attimes and so hard on ourselves
that we can't make things workall the time that we want.
But from Louise Hay toHermoses, I mean, these are just
really big people to Tony'sthat all of the program, the one
(34:10):
thing they have in common is abelief in God, in grace, and in
something bigger than us that wecan rely upon for good and for
healing.
And all of the greatest peopleI know, and all of the greatest
people that I know in marriages,again, Tony Hermozzi, all the
very well-known people, BobProctor and myself, they made a
(34:32):
list and a long ass list.
So I want your listeners tohear that self-actualization
literally means what do I want?
What do I want?
Not what does my mom want fromme, not what was my dad, what is
my brother, my boyfriend, whatdo I want from me?
Self-actualization is knowingyour list because it's knowing
your purpose.
What do I want to create in mylife?
When I'm on my deathbed, whatdo I have?
(34:53):
What do I want to have done?
Where do I want to have been?
And when you have your valuesystems and your belief and your
God and your spirituality, andyou become so clear on what that
is for you and that means toyou because you've sat with
yourself and you wrote it down.
What do I believe in God?
What's my faith?
What do I want to create in mylife?
How do I want to practice myfaith?
How do I wanna be a goodperson?
(35:15):
And you write it down, you havea list of who you need, who you
want, not who you need, who youwant.
And that is that actualizationthat we're speaking of.
Mary (35:26):
Yeah.
Okay, so there's a questionwe're gonna answer closer to the
end.
And you kind of just did, butwe're gonna have you sum it up
in a minute.
What is why is finding theright guy the worst way to go
about this?
But before we get there, tellus where to find you and what
you can do to help women andmen, right?
Chaya (35:45):
So if you're listening and you are ready for change in
your life and you don't want todo it alone, then you can reach
me at Instagram at Epic LoveExpert.
So Epic E P-I-C LoveL-O-V-Expert E X-P-R-T.
So at Epic LoveExpert, and youcan send me a DM and you say, I
(36:05):
heard you on your podcast, and Iwant help.
The first thing that I want thelisteners to hear is that you
we all need help.
I think from the moment we'realive to the moment we pass, we
need guidance and mentors andthe right ones.
And there's so much bad adviceoutside, like you said.
So first just want to chooseyourself.
(36:25):
Second thing, after you want tochoose yourself, no, you're not
meant to do it alone in yourown head with your own
struggles, being strong andself-dependent and not and not
weak and messy.
And then the third thing is ifyou want help with someone who
can genuinely help you attractthe right relationships in
business and in love, then sendme that DM at Epic Love Expert.
(36:46):
But you have to know it's aninvestment.
I won't work for you if you'renot ready to pay.
I won't work for you if youwant to blame your ex.
I will work for you if you wantyou.
If you don't even know how toget to you, but you know you
want you, then send me that DMbecause you deserve an
extraordinary life and I knowhow to get you there.
Mary (37:04):
Oh, I'm very inspired.
That's great.
That is great.
And I love that you're saying,you know, someone needs to be
clear on where they are and whattheir motivation is, because a
lot of that excuse making andblaming, that's not going to get
them there.
So I love that.
And of course, I'm gonna linkit in the show notes.
Um, and also I would askanybody who has been loving this
(37:26):
episode to please share it withsomeone or take a second and
scroll down and give a rating.
And if you have time, give acomment.
Okay, now to end, let's answerthe question, which I think kind
of we already did, but let'ssum up why is trying to find the
right guy the worst way to goabout this dating thing?
Chaya (37:45):
Because I think the key word in that sentence that's
wrong is find.
If you are a woman who's like,I need love, I just don't want
to be single anymore, I need theright guy.
Where is he?
All my other friends aremarried and having babies.
What about me?
You're already in a state ofdisconnection from yourself and
disconnection from God.
Like God forgot about me.
What's wrong with me?
(38:06):
Why don't I have what I need?
You're already in a state ofvoid, of weakness, of something
wrong with you, of masculinityin the sense that you're going
out of yourself and you'retrying to find is he gonna love
me?
Is he gonna love me?
Is he gonna think I'm hotenough?
Is he gonna want me?
And you're already in a stateof void, weakness, and masculine
energy, which is going outsideof yourself to conquer, find,
(38:30):
and bring.
And so, a real healthy, youknow, for a woman, I guess for
the women listening, men, youcan switch it.
Um, just be feminine of like, Ialready love me.
I've already got me.
If he doesn't want me or isready to commit to me, that's
okay.
I've got me and I'm ready tocommit to myself every day.
(38:50):
And so the key word really isnot to have the word find, but
to attract.
I attract the right guy who'sgonna see me, who's gonna see my
true authenticity because I'mliving a joyful life aligned
with my purpose and who's goingto want me and pursue me.
And when you want to justattract the right relationships,
(39:13):
you're already in a sense ofbeing more grounded and
connected with yourself and Godthat you're not going to allow
abuse and allow someone to toywith you because you've
increased your worth.
Mary (39:26):
Yeah.
That's great advice.
I am so big on the words thatwe use.
And so I think making that oneswitch from find to attract is
so powerful and we underestimatethat little mind shift.
But I think if people can thinkin those terms that they're not
out there always like looking,is he wearing a ring?
We sort of, when we're lookingfor that love, we're always
(39:49):
searching.
And I think if you can justlean back and think about I'm
gonna attract it when I havereached that point for me, then
that is so powerful.
Chaya (40:01):
Yeah.
And it's not only about needinglove from one man who will be
your true soulmate, it's alsohow do I live every day in love?
Even though I'm in anextraordinarily happy, healthy
marriage, I still have to loveup on myself daily.
I still have to nurture myself.
I still write myself love notesevery day.
I still buy myself flowers.
(40:22):
I need me because if I lose me,how can how much can I show up
for him and my children and mycompany and my clients?
So again, it's not just like Ineed to attract the right guy,
and it's like this moment oftime.
You're not in it for themilestone that minute you get
married.
You're in it to learn how tolove.
And that's a lifelong processthat starts with you loving up
(40:44):
on yourself, giving yourselfgrace and forgiveness and
kindness every day.
Mary (40:48):
What a beautiful message.
Thank you so much for beinghere, Kai.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, Mary.
It was such an honor.
And thank you, everyone, forlistening.
And until next time, you knowwhat I'm gonna say.
Go out into the world and bethe amazing, resilient, vibrant
violet that you are.
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