February 21, 2025 • 38 mins
In collaboration with our friends at Search Engine, we seek to find a cure for Manny's deep aversion to seafood, for the sake of our friendship.
For more, visit www.nosuchthing.show. If you have a question you'd like us to answer, feel free to email us at mannynoahdevan@gmail.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing.
On today's episode, we're trying to find out if it's
possible to cure picky eating. No, there's no no such thing.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Such a thing than.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
This episode is in collaboration with the search Engine podcast
hosted by p J vote Uh. It was a lot
of fun to do and we're just gonna let them
take it away from here.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Do you guys want to introduce yourselves?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Absolutely. My name is Manny, I'm Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
And this is Devon and search Engine listeners may remember you.
You guys were on the show previously. Usually we answer
people's questions. You guys showed up with a question which
you then answered, which was.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, why are there so many chicken bones on the streets?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
It was it was an investigation. People honestly still email
me about people. I think there are just Americans now
who walk down the streets, see a chicken bone, and
think about these three unusual gentlemen from New York.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
We answered this.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I love to hear that.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
We got an email last week about it.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
Really Yeah, someone sent us a picture of a chicken bone.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Not that the like. We were still doing research for
the episode I think.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Since that first story published a year ago, Manny, Noah,
and Devin have started their own podcast. They answer questions
something I was pretty sure we completely invented, but whatever.
I think the reason their show is so good is
their excellent question choosing the big questions that come out
of their arguments. These three are always arguing about stuff
like do audiobooks count as reading? Do horses hate running? Well?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Actually, today an episode came out called is it okay
to wear your outside clothes on your bed? Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I've been Uh, I've been criticized for this quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Ye, I'll ask you, do you think it's okay?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I mean, there's a lot of things I do that
I don't think are okay, But I will I go
to bed like I don't know the people you're talking
about have discussing are But I'm definitely worse than that.
Like I will get in bed, I will sleep in
my jeans.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
That's an extreme case. That's pretty nasty.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It's disgusting. I mean why because I don't.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Like, you have really comfortable jeans.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
They're not they're like they are like jeggings, or like
they're not they're broken in.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I'll they're very broken, just like by the end of
the day, the exertion of literally I sometimes I just
don't have it anyway. The reason the Chicken Bone Squad
was back here today was because once again they had
a question for our show which they wanted to find
the answer to, a question we hear at search Engine
found particularly delightful.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Today. We have a problem, and I'm grateful to be
able to use this platform again to answer something so stupid.
But I'm a member of the picky eating community and
that's OK. That's run into a lot of issues in
this friend group. It's run into a lot of issues
in my relationship, specifically because my version of pickie eating
(03:36):
is an aversion.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
To seafood across the board, No, seafood.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, pretty much across the board.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
That's like, are you a lifelong picky eater?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
And it's just has it been the same versions since
you were a kid or have you developed, Like as
your palette has advanced, has your pickiness also advanced?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah? I think it's been lifelong, especially with seafood. I
am to tell you a layout a little bit about
like my background, so I'm eritrean American. Both my parents
are from Eritrea, and in that cuisine there's really no
seafood at all. Unless you are from one of the
port towns on the Red Sea, you don't eat seafood.
(04:16):
So I didn't grow up with any seafood. The only
seafood exposure I had was like at elementary school or
middle school where they would have like the fish Fridays
or fried shrimp or whatever.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
But so, would you eat the fried shrimp when you're
a kid?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I did, but I didn't know what it was because.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
It is always carrying the weight.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, which is what struck me about this aversion because
it wasn't the taste at the time, because it's knowing
what it is is what made me.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
I understand it, don't. I don't find pickiness in food
consumption strange, and like I like seafood, but there was
like I had a couple of years with shrimp all
the sudder. It's like I'm not doing that, and then
it came back because they're like they are like insects.
It's like you're eating this like weird fat worm that
has like that visible poop in it.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And my family ends up being a good exam for
this because although none of my siblings grew up eating fish,
they all love fish, Okay, they like it. Now there
are another group of people who I'm running into this
issue with. We cannot go out to eat and get
what they want to get because I'm there.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
And what are the conversations around this, Like they're.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Like stop being Yeah, I won't use the words. Basically,
I'm like being a child and like preventing them from
getting what they want to get. And I'll just say this, like,
for the picky eaters out there, I don't think you
should change who you are. But for me specifically, I'm
running into this enough to where I'm curious about whether
(05:43):
it's possible to cure your picky eating. I want to
know if, like, is there something I can do to
make it so that I can tolerate fish enough to
be able to be at a restaurant and not cause
any issues when I'm ordering in a group or with myro.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
And is the idea that you'll let like actually consume it.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, I think like the ultimately, like it'd be great
if I was just towing down on like any kind
of fish, shrimp, tuna, whatever, But mostly I just want
to be able to exist in this restaurant space and
like not be a hindrance to people who you know,
in New York, it's a lot of money, so to
go out to eat. If you're paying that much money
and you're not eating what you want to eat, I
(06:26):
feel like I don't want to be an obstacle to,
you know, someone's desires. Okay, So that's the question that
we came here to answer, like is it possible to
cure picky eating? And we started with Noah. We had
him kind of look into the history of picky eating
(06:48):
and some of the stuff people have done to try
and cure it.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Yeah, So what I found was the kind of idea
of even just choosing what you eat is actually a
pretty recent historical phenomenon. I mean, you can imagine most
people just had to eat whatever was given to them
throughout history. So I mean, like the term picky eating
didn't even exist until the seventies, or wasn't used until
the seventies. But there has been kind of this war
between picky children and their parents for probably since like
(07:13):
the eighteen hundreds, so I mean for the past century
or so, parents and doctors have been trying all sorts
of ways to cure this modern affliction. There's all sorts
of cookbooks designed to help parents sneak healthy foods into recipes.
The kids might actually try things like spinach and browniesie, Yeah,
which is pretty perverse. I feel like, yeah, there's probably
(07:34):
some better ways to do it. Hopefully, you know, maybe
new technology is helping this. I hope hypnotherapy is actually
a popular method for that's for both children and adults.
So maybe Manny can try that.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
But one of the most common, and definitely the one
I was most familiar with, is what i'd call forced exposure. So,
all right, you hate some food, but if we just
kind of force you to eat it or be around it,
then maybe eventually you're just kind of give in and
up to that. This is a decent food to eat.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
And common because it's uh successful, or common because it's
just what every parent defaults do.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (08:06):
I think it's just kind of an obvious thing to try.
It's also very popular on daytime TV.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Daytime TV.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
Yeah, so shows like Maury. I mean, you could find
a lot of examples of this. It makes for great
TV fodder, you can imagine. So I want to show
you a clip.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Actually, okay, this is Mariah.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
She's eighteen years old and she is deathly afraid of pickles.
I mean, the whole world eats pickles.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
There's a woman who looks like she just found out
she's dying. She's shaking school.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Was called the pickle Girl.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And then they're presenting her with trays and trays and
trays of pickles.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
This is what the side of a pickle does to Mariah.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Everything about pickles?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Are is it crazy? What every idea you have has
been done by someone in a umermeanor.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
We wanted to see firsthand the extent of Mariah's pickle phobio,
so we sent her to the Patterson Pickle Factory, where
she would come face to face with thousands of thousands
of pickle maris.
Speaker 6 (09:16):
A saydust, listen, if Mariah the Pickle Girl is out there,
I would love to hear you know where you are
now and kind of what your life has been like.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
It seems like being on Maury being humiliated for having
a very unusual psychological response to pickles is so much
worse than the problem she was trying to solve.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
Yeah, So like need just to say at the end
of the segment, the pickle girl is still very much
afraid of pickles, and like the research says, forced exposure
therapy like that just doesn't actually work right.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Stacking the thing people have a problem with in their
face over and over response is like good daytime TV.
Speaker 6 (09:50):
But yeah, so we could have just take Manny to
some factory and hope it would go away. But we
tried to find a scientist who had studied this kind
of stuff. So we actually came across the professor at
Duke University, who is one of the first people to
really hone in and look at picky eating in a
comprehensive way.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
We wanted to first just ask if you could say
your name and what you do.
Speaker 7 (10:11):
My name is Nancy Zooker, and I am a professor
of psychiatry at Duke University and I direct the Duke
Center for Eating Disorders.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Great, I'll tell you a little bit about my experience
with this. Yeah, I've been a picky eater my whole life.
I have a specific aversion to seafood and fish, and
so what we're kind of planning to do with this
episode is cure that as best as we can. And
so you know, you did just mention that you worked
(10:42):
at the Center for Eating Disorders. I guess my first
question is do I have an eating disorder?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (10:49):
You know, so the boundary in which being a picky
eater is defined as a disorder is based on impairment.
And so if you're a version to fish, does it
include seaf food like shrimp skeleton?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, all of it, all of it, the whole lot
of it.
Speaker 7 (11:04):
Right, So like if you were I suppose I'm aspiring
New York chef and it was getting in your way
of kind of designing the menu of your dreams, then
it might be, you know, crossing over into impairment. But
if it doesn't get in your way, then it probably
wouldn't cost. The lines of a.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Disorder interesting, So it's kind of the same way we're
defining like depression or alcoholism. Like whether behavior rises the
level of disorder has to do with how well you're
able to fit in society exactly, And how we draw
the line between picky eating and disordered eating is like
how much it's impairing your relationship to society, Which is
funny because it's like I'm not going to disagree with psychiatry,
(11:43):
but like I slightly disagree with that where I'm like,
but we kind of do know, Like there's a difference
between like, oh, I have an aversion and like, oh,
it's like a deep psychological pain. Like it feels like
an insufficient way to describe the severity of the problem,
but I'll allow it.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
Yeah, man is not so extreme as in like he
goes out to eat with us, and he can be
in a presence of seafood. But some people don't even
want to be. You can't smell it, you can't look
at it right, Like.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
But I do feel disgusted by like fish, just like
when they're alive, Like they're slippery and squirmy, and in
the world, I'm not gonna throw up, but I'm like
a live fish. Yeah, a beautiful school of fish that
disturbs you. There are some I get it.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Sorry, I'll defend you against your friends. Man, he's talking
about you're on the beach on vacation. You're standing, the
water's up like your thighs and something like something rushes
on your leg is something squirmy and black kind of squirrels.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Did you go to aquariums as a kid? Yeah, so
you were just like, oh, this.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Is giant fish are different.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Oh, you don't like small fish.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
There's the little ones that are like skiming something like.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
The famous spots of fish.
Speaker 7 (12:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
But so you wouldn't like if you're out for dinner
with your girlfriend and like a waiter walked by with
a you know, a plate full of like shrimp on
a kebab, you don't care. But if you're with your
friends and they're being jerks and they like picked up
a shrimp and dangled in your face, you would feel discussed.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, I'd be like, get get it, get that out
of my face.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
So I asked doctor Zucker to explain to me, like,
what's what's going on with this disgust factor, Like why
is that happening?
Speaker 7 (13:26):
So disgust is a really cool emotion in my opinion. Right,
So it's designed to protect us from getting contaminated from pathogens. Right.
So it has a very protective function. And so when
you think about how one becomes contaminated, we get contaminated
when something crosses a body barrier. We ingest it, we
inhale it, we absorb it through our skin across the
(13:48):
some orifice, and by the time it does that, you're
contaminated and it's too late, and so there should be
these cues that people who are discussed sensitive pick ups.
You mentioned slimy, right, these kind of things that just
look to us like they're threatening and they could cause
us to be contaminated. And you know, it's interesting that
(14:09):
it's restricted to that one area. I would guess that
you're pretty detailed sensitive in other things like that. You
notice like visual details of things.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Like textbo Oh, yeah, I'm really observant. I'm a video producer,
and so that's kind of like part of my whole thing.
It's ruined to movies for me. Actually, I can't watch
movies like a normal person anymore.
Speaker 7 (14:29):
Oh, it wasn't that so interesting, right? So I just
I think that that's like a cool adaptive trait that
might not be as adaptive to the modern environment. But
like if you are a cave dweller back in the day,
perhaps you would have outlasted your peers.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
It's interesting, Mannie. It's like you have a brain that
is suited for being a cavebeller, where it's like avoid
unfamiliar foods at all costs because they could be poison.
And it's like sending you the right signals. But the
problem is we're in a world where everything we want
to do is just fit in socially, and the fact
that your poison avoiding brain is telling you not to
(15:07):
eat fish is causing you like three percent social friasion,
which is the worst thing that could happen in modern society.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, and I think, yeah, I think my ex once
described me as someone who had a brain suited to
be a cave dweller's that's not the first time I've
heard that comment, actually, But I was interested in why
Devin and Noah don't have the same problem that I do.
So that's interesting in terms of my experience. But Devin
and Noah here love fish. Why isn't their body telling
(15:37):
them to avoid fish?
Speaker 7 (15:39):
Well, because it's pretty adaptive to eat fish, right, Like,
not everything's contaminated. So there needs to be this kind
of balance of like people that have kind of a
low bar for trying out things and adventuring and testing
things out and seeing if it's okay. So there should
be variation in the population about kind of one sensitivity
to these different features. So you got some people taking
(16:00):
risks like your friends, and you know you who is
kind of holding back and saying like, you guys, try
it first.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
So what's interesting is that doctor Zucker actually did a
study a few years ago with twenty thousand self described
picky eaters.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Oh wow.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
And part of what they were trying to figure out
what the study, especially with her work with kids, it's like,
what are the things that your parents did that helped
with your pick eating? And what are some of the
things that they did that like really fucked you up?
Speaker 4 (16:28):
But she said, the.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Things that are helpful are like creating positive experiences with
your kids, involving them and prepping the food. Like one
example they had is like introducing cultures with food as
a way to introduce new foods to kids.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Oh like the culture from which the food.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
Exactly, like giving some background on it, making it feel
more like an experience.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Yeah, versus here's this thing in front of you, eat
it now.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
So it sounds like basically since we were kids, the
it's like the picky eating, like literature has progressed, like
the fuel of getting kids to eat things that might
be unfamiliar or weird like people, because I don't think
like like my parents or most of those parents were
reading books that were like sit your kids table with
the plan roc they tell everyone's crying, but like, gods
(17:17):
are their parents? Does that's what they were doing? And it's
like people have actually thought about this, and like psychiatry
has approached this, and like we have ideas about what
to do.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
Exactly interesting but honestly the coolest thing about doctor Zucker
and her team and they take all this data, all
this information that they gather, and then they apply it
to individual plans for individual people. So we asked her, Hey,
we're putting together a plan for Manny. Can you help
us sort of shape what that plan looks like.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
So this is very simplistic, but like I have a
grid where it's like, you know, sweet and salty is,
let's say, on the X axis, and like chewy and
crunchy is on the y access And so like, Manny,
if you were to like plot the foods that you
currently prefer and eat, you know on this you can
get the picture right, like, you know, is there a
kind of a pattern in terms of the textures and
(18:10):
tastes that you prefer?
Speaker 5 (18:14):
So basically her advice was like, try to introduce fish
in a format that many might already like. So maybe
like a fish dish that's crunchy and salty, you know
that sort of thing.
Speaker 7 (18:24):
You know, like parents will often start with like fish
sticks for example. You know, like things like that are
like really really crispy shrimp because there's more breading to fish.
You know, you guys get the picture.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
She basically said, like start with fried foods or put
it in a sandwich.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Like she said, just putand just.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Like because I'm already used to eating sandwiches and I
like sandwiches. Like maybe if you do a fish sandwich,
this is like a very entry level way.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
Yeah, things that can help mask the fishiness.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yes, or fried foods. Get do some fried fish, fish
and chips.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Yeah, fried fish. We're testing them.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Fish sandwich.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Maybe she didn't say sandwich. Maybe that it's an example
the doc.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
And she also said like you should be realistic about
what you're going to do, right, Like first step shouldn't
be like I'm going to eat a hundred.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Bites of this fish.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Yeah, She's like ticket one bite at a time, small bites,
like take the keys that your body is giving you
as well.
Speaker 7 (19:25):
You know, like I would really do this, like be
gentle with yourself. Think about like how many bites I
want to kind of manage Do I want to just
get over that initial gag and call it a day.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
She's like, you should have a chaser.
Speaker 7 (19:37):
I would absolutely have a chaser.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Oh yeah, like a shot of whiskey or something. Yeah,
or like.
Speaker 7 (19:43):
Another a bite of food. I work with five year olds,
for gosh sakes, like chocolate chips. You know.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
My views this like ends with you guys that like
in all you can eat seafood restaurant and you're just
hammered like vomiting. Yeah, you could drink your way through
a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Not the purpose of this whiskey is to clear the taste.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Yeah yeah, kind of reset. Okay, yeah yeah, that feel good.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
So she gave us a few tips that were, you know,
smart and reasonable. But what I really wanted to know
before diving in was, you know, as a doctor, did
she think this experiment could work? Do I have a
real shot at curing this?
Speaker 7 (20:28):
I think that the odds are in your favor, And
I'll tell you why. One is because it is restricted
to this one domain, You're able to tolerate the look
and smell of it and be around it. Right, So
that's another kind of clue that it's not as severe
as it could be. You're highly motivated to work on this,
(20:48):
which means that you're going to go into it with
your threat kind of perception down and be more kind.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Of just curious about it.
Speaker 7 (20:55):
And you're doing it for your girlfriend, which is just lovely.
And so there's like all the things that would be
rooting for you to be able to get through this
or on your side.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
After a short break a series of trials and experiments,
will Manny be able to cure his picky eating? Welcome
(21:36):
back to the show.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So after talking to doctor Zucker, you know, I felt
a little bit more confident about our goals here, still
a little skeptical, but like we have a plan now
we have this experiment, and so Noah, Devin and I
thought it's finally time to do this thing which is right,
which was three steps of fishy meals and increasing fishiness.
(22:03):
All right, this is Manny. I've just sat down with
the first of three increasingly fishy meals. I recorded everything
along the way. Uh, we just jumped straight into step one,
which you know, I found myself sitting in my apartment
with some takeout. There is a restaurant by me in
my neighborhood that's kind of moderately popular, and it's a
(22:26):
seafood restaurant and I've ordered their fried fish sandwich. It's
a spicy fried fish sandwich.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
So you were thinking fried fish sandwich, because again, fried
is a dominant flavor, yes, and sandwich.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Also also the sandwichwich. It's in a vehicle that I
know and love.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
You're mainly eating like fish inflected bread.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
That's what I would like to hope. Okay, Yeah, So
I'm sitting there examining the sandwich. I am touching it,
I'm smelling it, I'm assessing it. Generally, my first kind
of thought is that it looks exactly like a fried
chicken sandwich, and for that reason, I think all of
the receptors in my brain are are saying, Wow, this
(23:10):
looks really good, and it smells good as well. Crucially, though,
we're gonna try to see if it tastes good or
tastes good specifically to me. And so yeah, let's take
this first bite. And the first bite is great because
there's no fish in it. You're just I just got
the fried park and I'm like, oh wait. As I
(23:31):
look at the sandwich, I'm like, oh, there's the fish.
Definitely fish. I can already tell my jaw is like
slowing down, like my brain does not want me to
continue chewing this, but I'm gonna fight through it.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Did you gag?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I didn't gag. I think because there's spices in the
fried part are so like they were so savory, and
they were so what's the word, they smelled really good
and I didn't. I don't know. I think it just
masked the fishiness. I kind of like barely taste the
fish in this, but I still do taste the fish,
and so that is my body is just kind of
(24:10):
like it is not enjoying that part of this, the fish.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So it tasted grows. But it was kind of a
success in that you were able to like, like people
eat food they don't like all the time. That's that's
different than having a disgust reaction.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, and so I ate a few more bites. I think.
I mean, if if you guys looked at the sandwich
like you didn't touch this thing. But for someone who
has an aversion, I ate a lot of the sandwich.
Speaker 6 (24:35):
Yeah. I think if we were we weren't with many
when he ate the sandwich, I think if we were there,
we probably would have forced a few more bites, which
is probably against the wisdom of the doctoral.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
As like parenting the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yeah, I school.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
The sandwich were like a moon, Like what phase of
moon would it be? Like, there's full moon, there's moon.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Oh, we're talking pretty close to full where's about to.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Come right bright?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Maybe the night before a full moon?
Speaker 7 (25:02):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Okay, I'm seeing.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
The night before. No, but I think what I took
to be a success was that I even ate part
of a thing that was touching fish.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
Okay, yeah, yeah, So step one we could generously call
a success, so we wanted to up the difficulty level
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
For step two.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
We decided to do a home cooked meal. Yeah we're
outside welcome, So Devin and I were going to cook.
So we got some ingredients and went to Mandy's place.
(25:41):
It's our and Devin and I had googled a few
different fish recipes to consider.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Do you remember to search terms we used, Yeah, I
mean like.
Speaker 6 (25:50):
Fish for babies, like easy, easy fish recipes for kids,
things like that.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Just insulting.
Speaker 6 (25:58):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of it was pretty simple, kind
of either whitefish or salmon roasted in butter and kind
of covered in garlic or other things. Yeah, fish tacos, sheep,
pan fish, and chips. But we wanted something that wasn't
super fried. We wanted to kind of step it up
a little bit so we'd actually kind of see if
he can take this next step or if we're kind
of still stuck at the fried fish stage. And we
(26:21):
landed on a recipe that I've made several times before
from the New York Times, Roasted salmon glazed with brown
sugar and mustard.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Damn had it.
Speaker 6 (26:29):
It's Sam sifted and it's a very popular one.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
It's really good and it's super easy.
Speaker 6 (26:32):
It's like you don't even need the recipe really Yeah,
And what was good was you could dial in the
kind of sweetness of the sauce and how much there is.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
So it's brown sugar and Dijon mustard.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Almost like barbecue sauce on the tread.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
So let's see, this one on the left is going
to be the one for Manny. So I'm gonna make
sure that one's extra sauce.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
We added way more glaze than whatever. Noah had any
taste the glaze, and I was like, we're gonna need more,
yeah more so.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Yeah, it was pretty covered. We made sautee green beans
as a palate cleanser, and he had whiskey on the
rocks as his other palate cleanser.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Right, I'm here with my whiskey that I'm probably gonna
need after this. This looks worse while I'm going in,
so then I ate some of it, and the glaze
was really good, and I remember kind of being like,
(27:27):
this is the first time I could see why someone
would like this. Really, it's it's like this tastes good.
I don't want to say that it doesn't taste good.
It's more of the it's more of the like mental
factor of like trying to get past what it is.
But I will say this, I'm having an easier time
eating this than the fish sandwich. Really, I was taken
(27:50):
aback by the feeling of like, oh I can I
kind of get it. I get this.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
It's like the feeling you get with like an unfamiliar genre,
Like the first time you hear like a country song,
you like, oh yeah, right, it might not be for me.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, the guys singing about his rent is too high
or whatever. Yeah, wait, my rent is too high. That
is pretty much the feeling I had eating this salmon.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Okay, so phase two relatively successful. Yeah, can I just
observe that I don't know if, like if like picky
eating is mainly just a social problem, Like it's not
like you have some food deficiency for not even fish
or whatever. You just I understand that you guys are
trying to solve this problem partly because like you have
a podcast to make and you have a question for
(28:33):
the podcast whatever. You just have very nice friends, like
the legs that you guys are willing to go, Yeah,
to make this work is very sweet.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And yeah, no I thought about that. It's and it's
in stark contrast to how our usual dynamic is. And
so I was struck by that at some point during
this experiment.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Even because they weren't just like teasing you.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, I mean, Noah looking up a recipe making me
a meal. I know, it's kind of wild.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
So now that takes us to the real test, which
is step three, going to an actual restaurant to see
how big of a paint of ass is in many.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
And honestly, I didn't know how this was gonna go.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Step one two I thought went fine, but I was
curious how many was going to perform and an actual
restaurant with some actual fish dishes.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
So where do you guys go?
Speaker 1 (29:28):
We went to a restaurant called Swoonies in Brooklyn. It's
just like a neighborhood spot.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I like Swooties. They have some weird, cool fish dishes there.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
I believe that's the fish that's like their main fish entre.
Speaker 7 (29:43):
I've never heard of that before.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Do either of you know what crudo is?
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Yeah, there were a bunch of fish dishes that we
had never heard of, but we ended up choosing three
of them, and the first one was the tuna krudo.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Here's the thing about this dish, So tuna crudo, it's raw,
like cubed tuna, but it's in kind of like a
salad with like avocado and what is that cilantro. But
the main part that I liked was that it's served
with this bread that is incredibly buttery. And so what
we were doing were put all this stuff onto the
(30:17):
bread and then eating it.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
It's kind of your sandwich theory.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, no one wants to acknowledge the sandwich theory is
a valid theory. And the one thing I remember is
not tasting the tuna at all, Like I just didn't
taste the tuna first reaction, Like, there's definitely a little
bit of the texture you're getting in there, but it's
(30:40):
really good. Like the whole thing's really good. I'm taking
a second bite. It's kind of rare for me a second.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
I was shocked because he went in and immediately was
just like, oh, I like this.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I was kind of like, oh, we can.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Just go now, I mean, we did it.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
Shocked by what I'm seeing. Not only does he like it,
He's actively going back for more bites.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I think we might need to order another entre here.
This is crazy. So then after the crudo came the
lobster orizo, which was another advertiser, and it's I mean,
ores of people don't know what it is, like it's
pasta kind of but it's like thicker rice, I guess,
and it's got This one's more of a red sauce
and it's really creamy and delicious. But the thing that
(31:23):
I thought helped a lot with our experiment here is
that you couldn't really see the lobster inside.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
It's like hiding spinach in a brownie.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yes, exactly. You're kind of like micro dosing seafood.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
But you were finding that your micro dosing seafood experience
was like not just that you were tolerating it, but
enjoying it.
Speaker 7 (31:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Okay, so I'm having a really good and in my
view successful experience as spoonies. But I do imagine if
we went to like a lobster shop or something and
it was just straight up lobster forking knife, you'd still
have some struggle.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Or if you went too like a Portugese restaurant vertise,
I'll serve you like a whole fish with the eye
looking at Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, But I mean like
I don't really like like every time it's a full fish,
this doesn't feel right. Like I'm more on your side
of it, where like fish can be an ingredient, fish
can mean ingredient, and I feel like if the progress
you've made is fish can bet an ingredient, that's progress.
Speaker 7 (32:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Honestly, it did feel like progress, like I was actually
eating the stuff that that they were putting down on
the table. But then the final dish came out and
it didn't look like the other ones, like it actually
just looked like you know, out here, I'll just show
you a photo. I think I was calling it deraate
(32:42):
a without knowing, but this, you know, this is just
literally a fish without the head I.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Think, and without the tail.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Yeah, And this was the final test. This is like
the final boss, right. I took a fork full, I
examined it, and then I for it. What can I say?
It's really good, the tar the tarredness of the skin
on the top. This tastes like a steak. And so
(33:12):
I don't know, this is really good, but the.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Way you fully enjoyed, like an actual filet of fish.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
That was really good to me, not fried, not fried,
And there was very few kind of hang ups about it.
Five times the term.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Yeah, it's funny though, you know the process you're describing,
because I feel like you have answered the question like
can you cure picky eating? Like I think you have.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
And I think like most people, if there's like a
kind of cuisine or kind of food that they're a
little bit of verse to because it's unfamiliar, this is
kind of like how they walk in like the first
time you try it. Maybe it's fried, maybe it's an
ingredient something else. Maybe you go to a place that
prepares it really well, and like you just like slowly
get used to something unfamiliar until you discover the pleasure
(33:53):
in it, and then one day you turn around you've
just like changed.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I really didn't have any hopes for myself in any
of these experiments. I really was like, Okay, this is
kind of a lost cause there is something so I mean,
this just sounds obvious now, but just like the repetition
of doing it over and over again until you get
used to it just like helps a lot. The texture
(34:17):
of these fish, the fish that I've had in these
past couple of months, I'm used to it now, and.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
So I'm okay, So this is a two month process.
For instance, the argument you guys were having, the question
we're trying to answer is can you cure a picky eating?
What do you believe?
Speaker 7 (34:31):
Now?
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I think you and at least in my case, you
can kind of cure it because I'm not going to
eat fish that's just sitting there, that's not presented in
any kind of way. But depending on like the flavors
around it, depending on the vehicle it's served in, there
are ways you can tolerate it.
Speaker 6 (34:52):
For my purposes as a bystander, the answer is yes,
because I was shocked when he was taking bites of
this raw too and enjoying it, and I was like,
this is good for me.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
And do you feel like I don't want to be
too big a thing out of this, but like, do
you like picky eater is like a trait, Like it's
like one of the aspects of your personality. Do you
feel differently now on the other side of this experience?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, I mean there's definitely there's like all the corny
stuff that it's taught me, like how much I can
personally affect in my life. But there's also other foods
that I have a picky eating aversions to that I
want to try. Now, what do you want to try?
Like corn, for example, I just torn hate corn.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Corn.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah, what streams you with corn? You know what? It
is kind of similar to fish in a way that
it's slimy and like the texture is weird. It's okay
if it's like sprinkled in a salad or something like that,
but just like eating it right off of the ear
is tough, really tough for me. Popcorn Popcorn is fine.
(35:54):
Corn bread corn bread is great.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Okay, You're gonna be fine.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
And how do you guys feel good?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I'm all enjoyed.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
It was nice to see.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Manny, Noah and Devin. Their podcast is called No Such Thing.
If you like our show, we think you'll really love theirs.
Some episodes to check out that we really liked. Are
suburban dogs happier than city dogs?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
I hope not?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
And should men sit when they pee? Which has got
a lot of conversation over here? No such Thing It's available,
I have a podcast Spotify everywhere else. Search Engine is
(37:10):
a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw productions. It's created by
me pj Vote and Truthy Piaminani and is rouced by
Garrett Graham and Noah John. Backchecking by Holly Patten, Theme
original competition and mixing by armand Bassarian additional imprection support
from Sean Merchant and Kim Coople. If you'd like to
support our show get ad free episodes, zero reruns and
(37:32):
the occasional bonus audio, please consider signing up for incognito mode.
You can learn more at search Engine Dutch Show. Our
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Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex give me Rich
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(37:52):
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Agent is Aarren Rosenbaum at UTA following. Listen to Search
Engine with PJ vote now for free on the Odyssey
app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening,
We'll see you next week.
I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing.
On today's episode, we're trying to find out if it's
possible to cure picky eating. No, there's no no such thing.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Such a thing than.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
This episode is in collaboration with the search Engine podcast
hosted by p J vote Uh. It was a lot
of fun to do and we're just gonna let them
take it away from here.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Do you guys want to introduce yourselves?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Absolutely. My name is Manny, I'm Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
And this is Devon and search Engine listeners may remember you.
You guys were on the show previously. Usually we answer
people's questions. You guys showed up with a question which
you then answered, which was.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, why are there so many chicken bones on the streets?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
It was it was an investigation. People honestly still email
me about people. I think there are just Americans now
who walk down the streets, see a chicken bone, and
think about these three unusual gentlemen from New York.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
We answered this.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I love to hear that.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
We got an email last week about it.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
Really Yeah, someone sent us a picture of a chicken bone.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Not that the like. We were still doing research for
the episode I think.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Since that first story published a year ago, Manny, Noah,
and Devin have started their own podcast. They answer questions
something I was pretty sure we completely invented, but whatever.
I think the reason their show is so good is
their excellent question choosing the big questions that come out
of their arguments. These three are always arguing about stuff
like do audiobooks count as reading? Do horses hate running? Well?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Actually, today an episode came out called is it okay
to wear your outside clothes on your bed? Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I've been Uh, I've been criticized for this quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Ye, I'll ask you, do you think it's okay?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I mean, there's a lot of things I do that
I don't think are okay, But I will I go
to bed like I don't know the people you're talking
about have discussing are But I'm definitely worse than that.
Like I will get in bed, I will sleep in
my jeans.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
That's an extreme case. That's pretty nasty.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It's disgusting. I mean why because I don't.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Like, you have really comfortable jeans.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
They're not they're like they are like jeggings, or like
they're not they're broken in.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I'll they're very broken, just like by the end of
the day, the exertion of literally I sometimes I just
don't have it anyway. The reason the Chicken Bone Squad
was back here today was because once again they had
a question for our show which they wanted to find
the answer to, a question we hear at search Engine
found particularly delightful.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Today. We have a problem, and I'm grateful to be
able to use this platform again to answer something so stupid.
But I'm a member of the picky eating community and
that's OK. That's run into a lot of issues in
this friend group. It's run into a lot of issues
in my relationship, specifically because my version of pickie eating
(03:36):
is an aversion.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
To seafood across the board, No, seafood.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, pretty much across the board.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
That's like, are you a lifelong picky eater?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
And it's just has it been the same versions since
you were a kid or have you developed, Like as
your palette has advanced, has your pickiness also advanced?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah? I think it's been lifelong, especially with seafood. I
am to tell you a layout a little bit about
like my background, so I'm eritrean American. Both my parents
are from Eritrea, and in that cuisine there's really no
seafood at all. Unless you are from one of the
port towns on the Red Sea, you don't eat seafood.
(04:16):
So I didn't grow up with any seafood. The only
seafood exposure I had was like at elementary school or
middle school where they would have like the fish Fridays
or fried shrimp or whatever.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
But so, would you eat the fried shrimp when you're
a kid?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I did, but I didn't know what it was because.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
It is always carrying the weight.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, which is what struck me about this aversion because
it wasn't the taste at the time, because it's knowing
what it is is what made me.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
I understand it, don't. I don't find pickiness in food
consumption strange, and like I like seafood, but there was
like I had a couple of years with shrimp all
the sudder. It's like I'm not doing that, and then
it came back because they're like they are like insects.
It's like you're eating this like weird fat worm that
has like that visible poop in it.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And my family ends up being a good exam for
this because although none of my siblings grew up eating fish,
they all love fish, Okay, they like it. Now there
are another group of people who I'm running into this
issue with. We cannot go out to eat and get
what they want to get because I'm there.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
And what are the conversations around this, Like they're.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Like stop being Yeah, I won't use the words. Basically,
I'm like being a child and like preventing them from
getting what they want to get. And I'll just say this, like,
for the picky eaters out there, I don't think you
should change who you are. But for me specifically, I'm
running into this enough to where I'm curious about whether
(05:43):
it's possible to cure your picky eating. I want to
know if, like, is there something I can do to
make it so that I can tolerate fish enough to
be able to be at a restaurant and not cause
any issues when I'm ordering in a group or with myro.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
And is the idea that you'll let like actually consume it.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, I think like the ultimately, like it'd be great
if I was just towing down on like any kind
of fish, shrimp, tuna, whatever, But mostly I just want
to be able to exist in this restaurant space and
like not be a hindrance to people who you know,
in New York, it's a lot of money, so to
go out to eat. If you're paying that much money
and you're not eating what you want to eat, I
(06:26):
feel like I don't want to be an obstacle to,
you know, someone's desires. Okay, So that's the question that
we came here to answer, like is it possible to
cure picky eating? And we started with Noah. We had
him kind of look into the history of picky eating
(06:48):
and some of the stuff people have done to try
and cure it.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Yeah, So what I found was the kind of idea
of even just choosing what you eat is actually a
pretty recent historical phenomenon. I mean, you can imagine most
people just had to eat whatever was given to them
throughout history. So I mean, like the term picky eating
didn't even exist until the seventies, or wasn't used until
the seventies. But there has been kind of this war
between picky children and their parents for probably since like
(07:13):
the eighteen hundreds, so I mean for the past century
or so, parents and doctors have been trying all sorts
of ways to cure this modern affliction. There's all sorts
of cookbooks designed to help parents sneak healthy foods into recipes.
The kids might actually try things like spinach and browniesie, Yeah,
which is pretty perverse. I feel like, yeah, there's probably
(07:34):
some better ways to do it. Hopefully, you know, maybe
new technology is helping this. I hope hypnotherapy is actually
a popular method for that's for both children and adults.
So maybe Manny can try that.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
But one of the most common, and definitely the one
I was most familiar with, is what i'd call forced exposure. So,
all right, you hate some food, but if we just
kind of force you to eat it or be around it,
then maybe eventually you're just kind of give in and
up to that. This is a decent food to eat.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
And common because it's uh successful, or common because it's
just what every parent defaults do.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (08:06):
I think it's just kind of an obvious thing to try.
It's also very popular on daytime TV.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Daytime TV.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
Yeah, so shows like Maury. I mean, you could find
a lot of examples of this. It makes for great
TV fodder, you can imagine. So I want to show
you a clip.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Actually, okay, this is Mariah.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
She's eighteen years old and she is deathly afraid of pickles.
I mean, the whole world eats pickles.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
There's a woman who looks like she just found out
she's dying. She's shaking school.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Was called the pickle Girl.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And then they're presenting her with trays and trays and
trays of pickles.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
This is what the side of a pickle does to Mariah.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Everything about pickles?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Are is it crazy? What every idea you have has
been done by someone in a umermeanor.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
We wanted to see firsthand the extent of Mariah's pickle phobio,
so we sent her to the Patterson Pickle Factory, where
she would come face to face with thousands of thousands
of pickle maris.
Speaker 6 (09:16):
A saydust, listen, if Mariah the Pickle Girl is out there,
I would love to hear you know where you are
now and kind of what your life has been like.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
It seems like being on Maury being humiliated for having
a very unusual psychological response to pickles is so much
worse than the problem she was trying to solve.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
Yeah, So like need just to say at the end
of the segment, the pickle girl is still very much
afraid of pickles, and like the research says, forced exposure
therapy like that just doesn't actually work right.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Stacking the thing people have a problem with in their
face over and over response is like good daytime TV.
Speaker 6 (09:50):
But yeah, so we could have just take Manny to
some factory and hope it would go away. But we
tried to find a scientist who had studied this kind
of stuff. So we actually came across the professor at
Duke University, who is one of the first people to
really hone in and look at picky eating in a
comprehensive way.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
We wanted to first just ask if you could say
your name and what you do.
Speaker 7 (10:11):
My name is Nancy Zooker, and I am a professor
of psychiatry at Duke University and I direct the Duke
Center for Eating Disorders.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Great, I'll tell you a little bit about my experience
with this. Yeah, I've been a picky eater my whole life.
I have a specific aversion to seafood and fish, and
so what we're kind of planning to do with this
episode is cure that as best as we can. And
so you know, you did just mention that you worked
(10:42):
at the Center for Eating Disorders. I guess my first
question is do I have an eating disorder?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (10:49):
You know, so the boundary in which being a picky
eater is defined as a disorder is based on impairment.
And so if you're a version to fish, does it
include seaf food like shrimp skeleton?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, all of it, all of it, the whole lot
of it.
Speaker 7 (11:04):
Right, So like if you were I suppose I'm aspiring
New York chef and it was getting in your way
of kind of designing the menu of your dreams, then
it might be, you know, crossing over into impairment. But
if it doesn't get in your way, then it probably
wouldn't cost. The lines of a.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Disorder interesting, So it's kind of the same way we're
defining like depression or alcoholism. Like whether behavior rises the
level of disorder has to do with how well you're
able to fit in society exactly, And how we draw
the line between picky eating and disordered eating is like
how much it's impairing your relationship to society, Which is
funny because it's like I'm not going to disagree with psychiatry,
(11:43):
but like I slightly disagree with that where I'm like,
but we kind of do know, Like there's a difference
between like, oh, I have an aversion and like, oh,
it's like a deep psychological pain. Like it feels like
an insufficient way to describe the severity of the problem,
but I'll allow it.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
Yeah, man is not so extreme as in like he
goes out to eat with us, and he can be
in a presence of seafood. But some people don't even
want to be. You can't smell it, you can't look
at it right, Like.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
But I do feel disgusted by like fish, just like
when they're alive, Like they're slippery and squirmy, and in
the world, I'm not gonna throw up, but I'm like
a live fish. Yeah, a beautiful school of fish that
disturbs you. There are some I get it.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Sorry, I'll defend you against your friends. Man, he's talking
about you're on the beach on vacation. You're standing, the
water's up like your thighs and something like something rushes
on your leg is something squirmy and black kind of squirrels.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Did you go to aquariums as a kid? Yeah, so
you were just like, oh, this.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Is giant fish are different.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Oh, you don't like small fish.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
There's the little ones that are like skiming something like.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
The famous spots of fish.
Speaker 7 (12:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
But so you wouldn't like if you're out for dinner
with your girlfriend and like a waiter walked by with
a you know, a plate full of like shrimp on
a kebab, you don't care. But if you're with your
friends and they're being jerks and they like picked up
a shrimp and dangled in your face, you would feel discussed.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, I'd be like, get get it, get that out
of my face.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
So I asked doctor Zucker to explain to me, like,
what's what's going on with this disgust factor, Like why
is that happening?
Speaker 7 (13:26):
So disgust is a really cool emotion in my opinion. Right,
So it's designed to protect us from getting contaminated from pathogens. Right.
So it has a very protective function. And so when
you think about how one becomes contaminated, we get contaminated
when something crosses a body barrier. We ingest it, we
inhale it, we absorb it through our skin across the
(13:48):
some orifice, and by the time it does that, you're
contaminated and it's too late, and so there should be
these cues that people who are discussed sensitive pick ups.
You mentioned slimy, right, these kind of things that just
look to us like they're threatening and they could cause
us to be contaminated. And you know, it's interesting that
(14:09):
it's restricted to that one area. I would guess that
you're pretty detailed sensitive in other things like that. You
notice like visual details of things.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Like textbo Oh, yeah, I'm really observant. I'm a video producer,
and so that's kind of like part of my whole thing.
It's ruined to movies for me. Actually, I can't watch
movies like a normal person anymore.
Speaker 7 (14:29):
Oh, it wasn't that so interesting, right? So I just
I think that that's like a cool adaptive trait that
might not be as adaptive to the modern environment. But
like if you are a cave dweller back in the day,
perhaps you would have outlasted your peers.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
It's interesting, Mannie. It's like you have a brain that
is suited for being a cavebeller, where it's like avoid
unfamiliar foods at all costs because they could be poison.
And it's like sending you the right signals. But the
problem is we're in a world where everything we want
to do is just fit in socially, and the fact
that your poison avoiding brain is telling you not to
(15:07):
eat fish is causing you like three percent social friasion,
which is the worst thing that could happen in modern society.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, and I think, yeah, I think my ex once
described me as someone who had a brain suited to
be a cave dweller's that's not the first time I've
heard that comment, actually, But I was interested in why
Devin and Noah don't have the same problem that I do.
So that's interesting in terms of my experience. But Devin
and Noah here love fish. Why isn't their body telling
(15:37):
them to avoid fish?
Speaker 7 (15:39):
Well, because it's pretty adaptive to eat fish, right, Like,
not everything's contaminated. So there needs to be this kind
of balance of like people that have kind of a
low bar for trying out things and adventuring and testing
things out and seeing if it's okay. So there should
be variation in the population about kind of one sensitivity
to these different features. So you got some people taking
(16:00):
risks like your friends, and you know you who is
kind of holding back and saying like, you guys, try
it first.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
So what's interesting is that doctor Zucker actually did a
study a few years ago with twenty thousand self described
picky eaters.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Oh wow.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
And part of what they were trying to figure out
what the study, especially with her work with kids, it's like,
what are the things that your parents did that helped
with your pick eating? And what are some of the
things that they did that like really fucked you up?
Speaker 4 (16:28):
But she said, the.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Things that are helpful are like creating positive experiences with
your kids, involving them and prepping the food. Like one
example they had is like introducing cultures with food as
a way to introduce new foods to kids.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Oh like the culture from which the food.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
Exactly, like giving some background on it, making it feel
more like an experience.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Yeah, versus here's this thing in front of you, eat
it now.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
So it sounds like basically since we were kids, the
it's like the picky eating, like literature has progressed, like
the fuel of getting kids to eat things that might
be unfamiliar or weird like people, because I don't think
like like my parents or most of those parents were
reading books that were like sit your kids table with
the plan roc they tell everyone's crying, but like, gods
(17:17):
are their parents? Does that's what they were doing? And it's
like people have actually thought about this, and like psychiatry
has approached this, and like we have ideas about what
to do.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
Exactly interesting but honestly the coolest thing about doctor Zucker
and her team and they take all this data, all
this information that they gather, and then they apply it
to individual plans for individual people. So we asked her, Hey,
we're putting together a plan for Manny. Can you help
us sort of shape what that plan looks like.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
So this is very simplistic, but like I have a
grid where it's like, you know, sweet and salty is,
let's say, on the X axis, and like chewy and
crunchy is on the y access And so like, Manny,
if you were to like plot the foods that you
currently prefer and eat, you know on this you can
get the picture right, like, you know, is there a
kind of a pattern in terms of the textures and
(18:10):
tastes that you prefer?
Speaker 5 (18:14):
So basically her advice was like, try to introduce fish
in a format that many might already like. So maybe
like a fish dish that's crunchy and salty, you know
that sort of thing.
Speaker 7 (18:24):
You know, like parents will often start with like fish
sticks for example. You know, like things like that are
like really really crispy shrimp because there's more breading to fish.
You know, you guys get the picture.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
She basically said, like start with fried foods or put
it in a sandwich.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Like she said, just putand just.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Like because I'm already used to eating sandwiches and I
like sandwiches. Like maybe if you do a fish sandwich,
this is like a very entry level way.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
Yeah, things that can help mask the fishiness.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yes, or fried foods. Get do some fried fish, fish
and chips.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Yeah, fried fish. We're testing them.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Fish sandwich.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Maybe she didn't say sandwich. Maybe that it's an example
the doc.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
And she also said like you should be realistic about
what you're going to do, right, Like first step shouldn't
be like I'm going to eat a hundred.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Bites of this fish.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Yeah, She's like ticket one bite at a time, small bites,
like take the keys that your body is giving you
as well.
Speaker 7 (19:25):
You know, like I would really do this, like be
gentle with yourself. Think about like how many bites I
want to kind of manage Do I want to just
get over that initial gag and call it a day.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
She's like, you should have a chaser.
Speaker 7 (19:37):
I would absolutely have a chaser.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Oh yeah, like a shot of whiskey or something. Yeah,
or like.
Speaker 7 (19:43):
Another a bite of food. I work with five year olds,
for gosh sakes, like chocolate chips. You know.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
My views this like ends with you guys that like
in all you can eat seafood restaurant and you're just
hammered like vomiting. Yeah, you could drink your way through
a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Not the purpose of this whiskey is to clear the taste.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Yeah yeah, kind of reset. Okay, yeah yeah, that feel good.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
So she gave us a few tips that were, you know,
smart and reasonable. But what I really wanted to know
before diving in was, you know, as a doctor, did
she think this experiment could work? Do I have a
real shot at curing this?
Speaker 7 (20:28):
I think that the odds are in your favor, And
I'll tell you why. One is because it is restricted
to this one domain, You're able to tolerate the look
and smell of it and be around it. Right, So
that's another kind of clue that it's not as severe
as it could be. You're highly motivated to work on this,
(20:48):
which means that you're going to go into it with
your threat kind of perception down and be more kind.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Of just curious about it.
Speaker 7 (20:55):
And you're doing it for your girlfriend, which is just lovely.
And so there's like all the things that would be
rooting for you to be able to get through this
or on your side.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
After a short break a series of trials and experiments,
will Manny be able to cure his picky eating? Welcome
(21:36):
back to the show.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So after talking to doctor Zucker, you know, I felt
a little bit more confident about our goals here, still
a little skeptical, but like we have a plan now
we have this experiment, and so Noah, Devin and I
thought it's finally time to do this thing which is right,
which was three steps of fishy meals and increasing fishiness.
(22:03):
All right, this is Manny. I've just sat down with
the first of three increasingly fishy meals. I recorded everything
along the way. Uh, we just jumped straight into step one,
which you know, I found myself sitting in my apartment
with some takeout. There is a restaurant by me in
my neighborhood that's kind of moderately popular, and it's a
(22:26):
seafood restaurant and I've ordered their fried fish sandwich. It's
a spicy fried fish sandwich.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
So you were thinking fried fish sandwich, because again, fried
is a dominant flavor, yes, and sandwich.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Also also the sandwichwich. It's in a vehicle that I
know and love.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
You're mainly eating like fish inflected bread.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
That's what I would like to hope. Okay, Yeah, So
I'm sitting there examining the sandwich. I am touching it,
I'm smelling it, I'm assessing it. Generally, my first kind
of thought is that it looks exactly like a fried
chicken sandwich, and for that reason, I think all of
the receptors in my brain are are saying, Wow, this
(23:10):
looks really good, and it smells good as well. Crucially, though,
we're gonna try to see if it tastes good or
tastes good specifically to me. And so yeah, let's take
this first bite. And the first bite is great because
there's no fish in it. You're just I just got
the fried park and I'm like, oh wait. As I
(23:31):
look at the sandwich, I'm like, oh, there's the fish.
Definitely fish. I can already tell my jaw is like
slowing down, like my brain does not want me to
continue chewing this, but I'm gonna fight through it.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Did you gag?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I didn't gag. I think because there's spices in the
fried part are so like they were so savory, and
they were so what's the word, they smelled really good
and I didn't. I don't know. I think it just
masked the fishiness. I kind of like barely taste the
fish in this, but I still do taste the fish,
and so that is my body is just kind of
(24:10):
like it is not enjoying that part of this, the fish.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So it tasted grows. But it was kind of a
success in that you were able to like, like people
eat food they don't like all the time. That's that's
different than having a disgust reaction.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, and so I ate a few more bites. I think.
I mean, if if you guys looked at the sandwich
like you didn't touch this thing. But for someone who
has an aversion, I ate a lot of the sandwich.
Speaker 6 (24:35):
Yeah. I think if we were we weren't with many
when he ate the sandwich, I think if we were there,
we probably would have forced a few more bites, which
is probably against the wisdom of the doctoral.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
As like parenting the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yeah, I school.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
The sandwich were like a moon, Like what phase of
moon would it be? Like, there's full moon, there's moon.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Oh, we're talking pretty close to full where's about to.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Come right bright?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Maybe the night before a full moon?
Speaker 7 (25:02):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Okay, I'm seeing.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
The night before. No, but I think what I took
to be a success was that I even ate part
of a thing that was touching fish.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
Okay, yeah, yeah, So step one we could generously call
a success, so we wanted to up the difficulty level
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
For step two.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
We decided to do a home cooked meal. Yeah we're
outside welcome, So Devin and I were going to cook.
So we got some ingredients and went to Mandy's place.
(25:41):
It's our and Devin and I had googled a few
different fish recipes to consider.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Do you remember to search terms we used, Yeah, I
mean like.
Speaker 6 (25:50):
Fish for babies, like easy, easy fish recipes for kids,
things like that.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Just insulting.
Speaker 6 (25:58):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of it was pretty simple, kind
of either whitefish or salmon roasted in butter and kind
of covered in garlic or other things. Yeah, fish tacos, sheep,
pan fish, and chips. But we wanted something that wasn't
super fried. We wanted to kind of step it up
a little bit so we'd actually kind of see if
he can take this next step or if we're kind
of still stuck at the fried fish stage. And we
(26:21):
landed on a recipe that I've made several times before
from the New York Times, Roasted salmon glazed with brown
sugar and mustard.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Damn had it.
Speaker 6 (26:29):
It's Sam sifted and it's a very popular one.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
It's really good and it's super easy.
Speaker 6 (26:32):
It's like you don't even need the recipe really Yeah,
And what was good was you could dial in the
kind of sweetness of the sauce and how much there is.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
So it's brown sugar and Dijon mustard.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Almost like barbecue sauce on the tread.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
So let's see, this one on the left is going
to be the one for Manny. So I'm gonna make
sure that one's extra sauce.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
We added way more glaze than whatever. Noah had any
taste the glaze, and I was like, we're gonna need more,
yeah more so.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Yeah, it was pretty covered. We made sautee green beans
as a palate cleanser, and he had whiskey on the
rocks as his other palate cleanser.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Right, I'm here with my whiskey that I'm probably gonna
need after this. This looks worse while I'm going in,
so then I ate some of it, and the glaze
was really good, and I remember kind of being like,
(27:27):
this is the first time I could see why someone
would like this. Really, it's it's like this tastes good.
I don't want to say that it doesn't taste good.
It's more of the it's more of the like mental
factor of like trying to get past what it is.
But I will say this, I'm having an easier time
eating this than the fish sandwich. Really, I was taken
(27:50):
aback by the feeling of like, oh I can I
kind of get it. I get this.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
It's like the feeling you get with like an unfamiliar genre,
Like the first time you hear like a country song,
you like, oh yeah, right, it might not be for me.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, the guys singing about his rent is too high
or whatever. Yeah, wait, my rent is too high. That
is pretty much the feeling I had eating this salmon.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Okay, so phase two relatively successful. Yeah, can I just
observe that I don't know if, like if like picky
eating is mainly just a social problem, Like it's not
like you have some food deficiency for not even fish
or whatever. You just I understand that you guys are
trying to solve this problem partly because like you have
a podcast to make and you have a question for
(28:33):
the podcast whatever. You just have very nice friends, like
the legs that you guys are willing to go, Yeah,
to make this work is very sweet.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And yeah, no I thought about that. It's and it's
in stark contrast to how our usual dynamic is. And
so I was struck by that at some point during
this experiment.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Even because they weren't just like teasing you.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, I mean, Noah looking up a recipe making me
a meal. I know, it's kind of wild.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
So now that takes us to the real test, which
is step three, going to an actual restaurant to see
how big of a paint of ass is in many.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
And honestly, I didn't know how this was gonna go.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Step one two I thought went fine, but I was
curious how many was going to perform and an actual
restaurant with some actual fish dishes.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
So where do you guys go?
Speaker 1 (29:28):
We went to a restaurant called Swoonies in Brooklyn. It's
just like a neighborhood spot.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I like Swooties. They have some weird, cool fish dishes there.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
I believe that's the fish that's like their main fish entre.
Speaker 7 (29:43):
I've never heard of that before.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Do either of you know what crudo is?
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Yeah, there were a bunch of fish dishes that we
had never heard of, but we ended up choosing three
of them, and the first one was the tuna krudo.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Here's the thing about this dish, So tuna crudo, it's raw,
like cubed tuna, but it's in kind of like a
salad with like avocado and what is that cilantro. But
the main part that I liked was that it's served
with this bread that is incredibly buttery. And so what
we were doing were put all this stuff onto the
(30:17):
bread and then eating it.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
It's kind of your sandwich theory.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, no one wants to acknowledge the sandwich theory is
a valid theory. And the one thing I remember is
not tasting the tuna at all, Like I just didn't
taste the tuna first reaction, Like, there's definitely a little
bit of the texture you're getting in there, but it's
(30:40):
really good. Like the whole thing's really good. I'm taking
a second bite. It's kind of rare for me a second.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
I was shocked because he went in and immediately was
just like, oh, I like this.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I was kind of like, oh, we can.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Just go now, I mean, we did it.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
Shocked by what I'm seeing. Not only does he like it,
He's actively going back for more bites.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I think we might need to order another entre here.
This is crazy. So then after the crudo came the
lobster orizo, which was another advertiser, and it's I mean,
ores of people don't know what it is, like it's
pasta kind of but it's like thicker rice, I guess,
and it's got This one's more of a red sauce
and it's really creamy and delicious. But the thing that
(31:23):
I thought helped a lot with our experiment here is
that you couldn't really see the lobster inside.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
It's like hiding spinach in a brownie.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yes, exactly. You're kind of like micro dosing seafood.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
But you were finding that your micro dosing seafood experience
was like not just that you were tolerating it, but
enjoying it.
Speaker 7 (31:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Okay, so I'm having a really good and in my
view successful experience as spoonies. But I do imagine if
we went to like a lobster shop or something and
it was just straight up lobster forking knife, you'd still
have some struggle.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Or if you went too like a Portugese restaurant vertise,
I'll serve you like a whole fish with the eye
looking at Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, But I mean like
I don't really like like every time it's a full fish,
this doesn't feel right. Like I'm more on your side
of it, where like fish can be an ingredient, fish
can mean ingredient, and I feel like if the progress
you've made is fish can bet an ingredient, that's progress.
Speaker 7 (32:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Honestly, it did feel like progress, like I was actually
eating the stuff that that they were putting down on
the table. But then the final dish came out and
it didn't look like the other ones, like it actually
just looked like you know, out here, I'll just show
you a photo. I think I was calling it deraate
(32:42):
a without knowing, but this, you know, this is just
literally a fish without the head I.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Think, and without the tail.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Yeah, And this was the final test. This is like
the final boss, right. I took a fork full, I
examined it, and then I for it. What can I say?
It's really good, the tar the tarredness of the skin
on the top. This tastes like a steak. And so
(33:12):
I don't know, this is really good, but the.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Way you fully enjoyed, like an actual filet of fish.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
That was really good to me, not fried, not fried,
And there was very few kind of hang ups about it.
Five times the term.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Yeah, it's funny though, you know the process you're describing,
because I feel like you have answered the question like
can you cure picky eating? Like I think you have.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
And I think like most people, if there's like a
kind of cuisine or kind of food that they're a
little bit of verse to because it's unfamiliar, this is
kind of like how they walk in like the first
time you try it. Maybe it's fried, maybe it's an
ingredient something else. Maybe you go to a place that
prepares it really well, and like you just like slowly
get used to something unfamiliar until you discover the pleasure
(33:53):
in it, and then one day you turn around you've
just like changed.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I really didn't have any hopes for myself in any
of these experiments. I really was like, Okay, this is
kind of a lost cause there is something so I mean,
this just sounds obvious now, but just like the repetition
of doing it over and over again until you get
used to it just like helps a lot. The texture
(34:17):
of these fish, the fish that I've had in these
past couple of months, I'm used to it now, and.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
So I'm okay, So this is a two month process.
For instance, the argument you guys were having, the question
we're trying to answer is can you cure a picky eating?
What do you believe?
Speaker 7 (34:31):
Now?
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I think you and at least in my case, you
can kind of cure it because I'm not going to
eat fish that's just sitting there, that's not presented in
any kind of way. But depending on like the flavors
around it, depending on the vehicle it's served in, there
are ways you can tolerate it.
Speaker 6 (34:52):
For my purposes as a bystander, the answer is yes,
because I was shocked when he was taking bites of
this raw too and enjoying it, and I was like,
this is good for me.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
And do you feel like I don't want to be
too big a thing out of this, but like, do
you like picky eater is like a trait, Like it's
like one of the aspects of your personality. Do you
feel differently now on the other side of this experience?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, I mean there's definitely there's like all the corny
stuff that it's taught me, like how much I can
personally affect in my life. But there's also other foods
that I have a picky eating aversions to that I
want to try. Now, what do you want to try?
Like corn, for example, I just torn hate corn.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Corn.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah, what streams you with corn? You know what? It
is kind of similar to fish in a way that
it's slimy and like the texture is weird. It's okay
if it's like sprinkled in a salad or something like that,
but just like eating it right off of the ear
is tough, really tough for me. Popcorn Popcorn is fine.
(35:54):
Corn bread corn bread is great.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Okay, You're gonna be fine.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
And how do you guys feel good?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I'm all enjoyed.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
It was nice to see.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Manny, Noah and Devin. Their podcast is called No Such Thing.
If you like our show, we think you'll really love theirs.
Some episodes to check out that we really liked. Are
suburban dogs happier than city dogs?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
I hope not?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
And should men sit when they pee? Which has got
a lot of conversation over here? No such Thing It's available,
I have a podcast Spotify everywhere else. Search Engine is
(37:10):
a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw productions. It's created by
me pj Vote and Truthy Piaminani and is rouced by
Garrett Graham and Noah John. Backchecking by Holly Patten, Theme
original competition and mixing by armand Bassarian additional imprection support
from Sean Merchant and Kim Coople. If you'd like to
support our show get ad free episodes, zero reruns and
(37:32):
the occasional bonus audio, please consider signing up for incognito mode.
You can learn more at search Engine Dutch Show. Our
executive producers are Jenna Wes Sperman and Lea Reese Dennis.
Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex give me Rich
Prelo and John Schmidt, and to the team at Odyssey JD. Crowley,
Brob Mirandy Craig Cox, Eric Donolly, Colin Gaynor, Matt Casey,
(37:52):
Mark Curran, justf Fina, Francis Kirk Courtney and Hilary shaff Our.
Agent is Aarren Rosenbaum at UTA following. Listen to Search
Engine with PJ vote now for free on the Odyssey
app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening,
We'll see you next week.
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